Judith Blau
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Abstract
Dr. Judith Blau is a professor of sociology at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. This interview not only focuses on how the Human Rights Center strives to guarantee Human rights for everyone, but it also focuses on the relationships our community has with the Latino immigrant community in Carrboro, N.C. Dr. Judith Blau describes the current status of relationships between immigrants and Americans in Carrboro, N.C. and Chapel Hill, N.C. and ways in which students, volunteers, and our community can help Latinos to feel more at home. Dr. Blau discusses some obstacles she has faced when establishing the Human Rights Center, but she also describes they ways in which she and her students overcame these issues. She has established many outreach programs such as adult English as a Second Language (ESL) classes, after school programs, computer classes, and volunteer work through her APPLES Social and Economic Justice course. Dr. Blau discusses the prospects for a worker’s program for the Human Rights Center and other goals she wants to achieve in the future.R0614_Audio.mp3
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Transcript
(Birds chirping and some cars in the background)
Miranda Wodarski: Okay. This is an Interview with Dr. Blau on March 20, 2012. My name is Miranda Wodarski and I am a sophomore at UNC Chapel Hill. I am conducting this oral history project with hopes to learn more about human rights with regards to immigrants in Carrboro and Chapel Hill in order help link the American population with the immigrant community. It is Tuesday March 20th and it is about 1:45 in the afternoon.
Good Afternoon Dr. Blau, How are you today?
Judith Blau: I'm fine. Thank you, Miranda.
MW: Great. As you probably know, Latinos are today’s fastest growing minority in North Carolina. Recently the town of Chapel Hill, Carrboro, and surrounding areas have seen a steady growth in this segment of the population. I am currently in a global studies course focused on Latino perspectives and Mexican immigration to North Carolina. I have recently been to Guanajuato, Mexico to gain a greater understanding of the factors which fuel immigration to the United States and to gain a greater appreciation of the conditions of the sending communities. This immigration influx however, alters the dynamics of a traditionally homogenous community.
Much of the recent immigration in North Carolina is unwanted and therefore when immigrants do arrive to our community, community members become very hostile and unwelcoming towards the immigrants, which create a segregated community. One of my goals of this project is to discover why nearly
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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half of Americans believe immigrants are having a bad influence in our community. Another goal of mine is to discover ways to overcome these negative opinions Americans have towards immigrants and to help produce better relationships between immigrants and Americans in our community. I believe your work with the Human Rights Center is a great effort to ensure that Latinos in our community are treated equally and therefore I would like to learn more about your work.
I am currently a member of the organization called Linking Immigrants to New Communities (LINC) here at UNC and I am on the “Know Your Rights” committee. Through this committee and through the process of this project, I hope to learn more about the rights immigrants are entitled to in our community and to teach other Americans and Latinos about these rights in order for relationships to grow.
I am aware that you were interviewed last March by Elise Stephenson, another student at Chapel Hill. This interview is archived in the Southern Oral History Project Database in Wilson Library at UNC and is open for all students to access and to listen to. I listened to this interview in order to learn more about Elise’s project and also to learn more information about you and your profession.
I am very impressed by all of your work you have done in our community to guarantee Human Rights for everyone. I also volunteer at Abby Court as an ESL teacher and last semester I volunteered at Frank Porter Graham Elementary as a classroom helper in a Spanish dual-language class. I am still tutoring one of the first graders in Spanish reading and writing this semester.
With all that being said, I would like to focus today’s interview not only on Human rights guaranteed for everyone, but on the relationships our community has with the Latino immigrant community. By asking you a few questions, I hope learn more about the current status of the relationships between immigrants and Americans in our community and ways in which we can help. Let’s begin.
MW: You told Elise last year that you moved to North Carolina from New York primarily because of the Department of Sociology. I would first like to ask you about your experiences in New York with Latino immigrants. Did you work with any immigrants while living in New York? If so, what kind of interactions did you have?
JB: Our neighbors to the North, this was called the University are, and er to the North was primarily Puerto Rican. The homeless population was a diverse population. The the no, I was not doing immigration research or studies or advocacy at that time. Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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MW: Okay. If you have had experience with the Latino community in New York, how would you describe the relationship between immigrants in New York with the American population?
JB: It's very similar to what we experience here. There is an isolation of the immigrants and the distress of uh of the white population of Latino immigrants.
MW: Do you think immigrants have the same types of jobs as Americans do?
JB: So, that's an interesting question. There's so much uh diversity within the Latino community as some are working in high level position in restaurants. Others as mechanics, very skilled mechanics. Others as day laborers. So there's there's great variation and that depends on the likelihood of their gaining citizen citizenship.
MW: I agree. Are the immigrants given the rights their entitled to in New York, as far as you know?
JB: No (laughing)
MW: Why do you say that?
JB: (laughing) Well, they're a completed marginalized population. (Birds chirping). As, African Americans were in the 1960's.
MW: Okay. Does the American community seem to respect the immigrant community?
JB: No. Your immigrant community is isolated and marginalized. The one major group in Carrboro/Chapel Hill are that have reached out to migrants and have been advocates for them is the NAACP.
MW: Could you explain what that organization does?
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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JB: It's the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. So their their, traditional they've been associated with the African American population but their title of this very successful national organization doesn't disclose a particular bias towards one group of colored people or another. Revered Campbell at the Sunday conference. He's the head of the NAACP and the director of RENA at Rogers Road. And he was just brilliant, I mean the expression of solidarity, we're in it together, uh let's go folks, black, brown, all shades of brown, we together will overcome the discrimination.
MW: That's great. Does he work primarily in North Carolina or is this a national organization he's the leader of.
JB: He’s the president of the local chapter of NAACP. And he's the director of RENA Rogers-Eubanks association in Rogers Road.
MW: Okay, interesting. So do you think that the American communities in either in New York or here interact frequently with the Latino population? Or do you think the populations are more segregated than integrated?
JB: They're segregated except for the employers who want to hire cheap labor.
MW: Could you give an example of those employers?
JB: We shut down a couple of restaurants (laughing) for violations of labor laws. The, we pursue as best we can the complaints of the day laborers of wait theft and abuse.
MW: When you say "we" who are you speaking of?
JB: We, the uh the staff of The Human Rights Organization
MW: Okay. And which labor laws are most commonly violated by these restaurant employers?
JB: Paying workers less than what they promised or not paying workers at all.
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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MW: Do you find out about these violations through the workers? Or how do you, how are you aware of these violations?
JB: We have a community organizer who spends half half of his time at the corner where day laborers hang out and so he, he, he receives accounts of these stories and then documents them and takes them to Department of Labor.
MW: Okay. That's a great way of doing things. Okay. After you moved to North Carolina from New York, when was your first interaction with a Latino immigrant? (Pause) If you can remember. (laughing).
JB: Well. (Pause). I'm not sure. I think more since I’ve moved to the country and I lived in a predominately black community and now which is becoming increasingly Latino and Latinos, Latinos take my classes.
MW: So do you think a student was your first major interaction with a Latino living in this community.
JB: Okay well I was, it, increasingly, let let me back up and say sociology for the most part emphasizes neutrality and detachment and I thought that was kind of hypocritical (laughing) because everyone I know in sociology, really, truly believes in equality and decency for all people. But they can't let that show up in their research. So, why not? So, well we're trying to live up to scientific standards and we fool ourselves when we think that we are being neutral and detached, we're not. Um, sociologist who study women are not detached. Socialists who study gay/lesbian people are not detached. Poverty, they're not. So we can't admit to our professed values and as I was a founder of the SEJ minor. And so it propelled me in to the direction of con confronting these shall we say, hypocritical values? And the and the students love it (laughing). The students were completely enthusiastic about service learning, about you know, commitment, engagement, so if if there was anything that pulled me into founding the Human Rights Center, it was university students. And then, the next step was to found, found the Human Rights Center.
MW: Okay so did you found the minor before the Human Rights Center?
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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JB: Yes.
MW: Could you describe briefly what the minor entails?
JB: The minor is, I believe, I'm no longer the director of SEJ, but I believe the minor is four courses and uh the first thing I did was to assemble an advisory board of very distinguished faculty and administrators so that if we were attacked by the outside, that we, they would defend us. As it turned out, we didn't need defending. And I taught that course as a theory course for several years. The (laughing) way I got pulled into founding the Human Rights Center, is a student, a first year graduate student, Rafael Gallegos. And I were Abbey Court handing out flyers for El Centro, which doesn't exist anymore and the security guard chased us around and yelled profanities at us. Oh and I had three hundred undergraduates with me.
MW: Wow.
JB: So, he said, he's going to call the police. And I said, "Don’t be silly," but of course it's private property. So he called the police, he called the Sheriff's Department and "zing zing zing zing zing zing," the bells go off and they pull up and the Carrboro Patrol man says, "we're going to have to trespass you unless you leave." So, I made sure that the undergraduates got out before encounter. And Rafael and I left. And I turned to him and I said, "We need to found, found a non-profit in this community. Then we're immune from this harassment." I called Mayor Chilton. I said, "What in the hell is going on?" (laughing). "We can't pass out flyers." And he said, "Call the Chief Police, Carolyn Hudgenson." Which I did, I met with her the next day. And she said, "Well, Judith, you know, you should be relieved that we didn't trespass you." (laughing) And so Carolyn and I have gotten along ever since then.
MW: Okay so have you had many struggles many struggles with trying to found the Human Rights Center, like this?
JB: No. Because the students were so engaged. And so eager play a role in form or another. One of the luckiest things that happened to us, I was walking across the Green Commons at Abbey Court, right after I bought the apartment and I saw a woman reading stories to, oh twenty children were all sitting on the grass. And I said,
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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"Well, who are you?" And she said, "I teach at Scroggs Elementary School." And I said, "Oh you don't have to sit out here, come in!" (laughing) So she started an after school program and it has been a huge success.
MW: Why did you decide to buy property in Abbey Court?
JB: Because it's the poorest immigrant community in the county.
MW: Did you know this ahead of time by research? Or how were aware of this?
JB: I think more, more by my observation. The the day laborers, most of the day laborers, live at Abbey Court and they are very poor.
MW: Yes, the students who come to the ESL classes at Abbey Court, you can tell they're day laborers and they work for a day by day salary and it's very sad, but it's great that we have this apartment that we have to work with them and it's so great to see how anxious they are to come every week and to learn English. So I really appreciate that we have this environment to do so.
JB: Well let me congratulate you. It's beginning to show. The, my Spanish is practically non-existent, but that turns out to be okay because people try to communicate with me in English. And they keep getting better and better and better.
MW: That's great. That really makes me feel, special for helping them because I'm not always sure that what I'm teaching sticks in their mind because English is a hard language for them to learn and they've told me that many times, but it really makes me warm when I see how anxious they are to learn and then when they use English outside of the class, that's great. Okay so, please describe your intentions when founding the Human Rights Center here in Carrboro. Were they focused in ensuring the rights of Latinos in our community?
JB: More so, initially more as a vehicle of teaching and, applying human rights standards. Now it turns out (laughing) that human rights means everything: the right to food, the right to water, the right to housing, the right to medical to care, the right to a decent job, the rights of women, the rights of minorities (laughing) and it
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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spans the whole spectrum, so we grow because most often students propose programs that are in sync with that mission.
MW: Okay, good answer. According to your experience, which rights are most commonly violated for Latinos in our community?
JB: Labor rights.
MW: Labor rights within, you mentioned, you earlier mentioned restaurants, but what other labor rights have been violated?
JB: Construction. The lat, we welcome the Latinos. From El Salvador, from Honduras, Ecuador. "Come come to America, we have jobs for you, they're low income jobs, but they're better than you can make in your own community," which has been decimated by neoliberalism (laughing). And "so if you come to, come to American and there will be work." (Pause). We don't guarantee you citizenship at all. But we guarantee you work. So now the Latinos who've been here fifteen, eighteen years there is no cue for citizenship. They're they're stuck. And they can't drive a car. Um, they're...now they are protected under the Department of Labor laws. Both at the state and the Federal level. That's really important and that' is what we hold employers accountable for.
MW: Okay. That is very sad, but hopefully we're moving in the right direction to help them. What does the Human Rights Center specifically do in order to prevent these violations?
JB: To prevent them. Well we're whistle blowers when they're violated. Weare planning a big step forward and that’s to create a worker's center where workers and employers will come and employers will be required to register. There’re forty six centers in the United States, the two mayors are sort of abstractly backing this. It, it's (pause) I mean there are there are all kinds of challenges when, when we were kicked out of Abbey Court for violated Home Owner's Association Rules. I mean what we contributed to Abbey Court was tremendous (laughing). That they would kick us out, I found quite surprising, but they did. And the mayor came to bat for us. I went to a Home Owner's Association meeting for Tar Heel Real.., for for Tar Heel Company and there
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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were only three people, three adults who were on that board. Which I found a little surprising. And I gave a presentation and presented them with a petition that was signed by twenty two hundred plus, mostly undergraduates. Plus a lovely set of drawings and pictures by the children. "We don't want to leave Abbey Court," and so they just brushed them aside and then in walked Mayor Chilton. Uh and he took out his his recorder, like you have, and they said, they screamed at him and said "put that away," and he said, "no, no, no this is a public meeting." So he, tape recorded the whole thing. They were going to asses a three hundred dollar a day fine. Three hundred dollar a day fine, wow. Um (pause) so he, Mayor Chilton pulled the CEO of Tar Heel Reality back into another room and they talked, I ignored you, they talked about. And then I heard that the three hundred dollar day would be reinstated but we would have to leave by March 1. I said, "No, no, no March 1 is terrible for the students, for the programs." For LINC for example, discontinuity. And they said, "no, it's March 1, so several spent the Winter break looking for another house, another house and we found one on Barnes Street, which is very close. Now, you know we do have a progressive town. They voted to end the war in Iraq, for example. Politically progressive and believe in organic food, etc, etc, but when it comes to having immigrants in their community they're not so progressive. We went, we found several possibilities for houses and nimbyism, and you know what that is? Are not in my backyard.
MW: Ohhh.
JB: Nimbyism is rampant even in Abbey Court, even in Carrboro. So we found the Barnes Street house that we, so far so good.
MW: Okay, that's great news. You mentioned the new Worker Program you're trying to implement.
JB: Ummm hmm
MW: Now I'm aware, I don't know much about the efforts of El Centro, but you mentioned that that was also shut down. Didn't El Centro have a worker program like the one you’re describing to implement or am I wrong?
JB: No they didn't have am employer day laborer's program. They did offer a lot of services.
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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MW: Which kind of services did they offer?
JB: It was a very busy office. Legal services? ESL classes, children's classes, then shortly after they shut down, El Centro Hispano moved in. But El Centro Hispano is so far away from the core uh population of Latinos.
MW: That's why Abbey Court is a great location because it's only a mile from, a mile or two from campus and it's in the center of Carrboro.
JB: Yea.
MW: So that's good news. Do you work at all with El Centro Hispano?
JB: Yes.
MW: What do you with them?
JB: Okay, they loaned us fifty translation devices for our conference on Sunday (laughing). I frequently stop by to say hello. My students have the opportunity volunteering there. The the limitation of course is Spanish. But they're a good ally.
MW: I've always wanted to work with El Centro Hispano, but like you said it's a little but further away so it makes it harder, for me to uh get there. So,f from what you described your students have worked a lot with the immigrant population. Is this because you're class requires them to? Or is it by choice? Could you please describe a little about the classes that you teach and the students that work in your classes.
JB: Uh now, there's no choice. The students are all given, right now they're twenty eight uh possibilities to volunteer at the HRC. And its thirty hours per semester. This semester of course was very complicated because we can't, we can't yet start the after school program. We’rewaiting for the fire marshal to sign off on the electrical wiring. But that will happen next week. So we will be offering a full range of services. Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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MW: Okay, that's good news. Are, is the course that you teach an APPLES course?
JB: Yes.
MW: Okay and what's the title of this course? It sounds very interesting.
JB: Social and Economic Justice.
MW: Okay, good to know. Okay, how?
JB: That's all I teach.
MW: That's the only course you teach?
JB: I teach, enrollments can go up to two hundred in a given section, if I allow it to (laughing)
MW: Do you usually have a class size of two hundred?
JB: No.
MW: What's the average class size?
JB: Uh a hundred and fifteen.
MW: That's still a lot, especially for an APPLES course.
JB: Yes. Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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MW: I took Spanish 204 APPLES last semester and then the Latino Perspective class I'm in now is also an APPLES course but each class had no more than twenty people in it, so that's great that you're able to teach so many students because I bet it's a very popular course. (Pause). I’m curious to know how Latinos in our community know about the Human Rights Center and how they get the news about the events that the Human Rights Center has for our community.
JB: Uh, we distribute flyers and pamphlets. Tomorrow we are distributing tamales (laughing).
MW: Ohhh. Yum!
JB: (Laughing) We generally have two festivals a year. One, Dos Pasados, which is Latino and the other, is Thingyon which is Burmese I think and Quran. And of course there are all of kinds of things.
MW: Okay, that's great. And are those directed solely at Latino immigrants or at every community member?
JB: Every, they're, they have been Abby Court based. And that includes some quaran and Burmese families.
MW: Okay how do these different ethnicities interact with each other?
JB: Because of language, they don't.
MW: Do they even acknowledge each other or is it just the language barrier that keeps them from even, even saying hello?
JB: Oh the children do. I mean the children they they don't care (laughing) what what your what the other person's ethnicity or race is, they just, the children are fantastic. So it it will change with generation.
MW: Okay. Concerning the language barrier, do you think that is a major issue in our community with the Latino population and the American population? As far as segregation goes, do you think that is one of the major problems?
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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JB: Yes, yeah it's not all dis discrimination, it's also the objective language differences.
MW: What do you think the best solution to overcome this language barrier is?
JB: Dual language programs in elementary and secondary schools.
MW: I agree. Do you think that Americans should be working to learn the language of Spanish at an older adult age, for example, the employers that are trying to employ the Latino immigrants. Do you think they should learn Spanish? And the immigrants not learn English? Or do you think it's a two way thing?
JB: It's a two way street.
MW: I agree with that as well. That's one of the main reasons I'm studying Spanish. (Pause) Okay. Do you think our community overall supports the efforts of the Human Rights Center?
JB: (Pause) Okay, in the United States Human Rights is not a known, perspective. I mean here on campus I think increasingly undergraduates are becoming familiar with human rights. In the rest of the world, where countries, is, ratify treaties, human rights treaties, the treaty to eliminate uh discrimination against women, the economic, social, cultural rights, civil and political rights, it, these are discussed in town halls. And and widely understood as part of the process of globalism. Uh if, we need, Human Rights provide a framework for us to relate to people everywhere. But Americans, have never heard about it. We don't ratify the treaties.
MW: Are you working to overcome that problem?
JB: Uh Chapel Hill and Carrboro have, are, as you proposed, endorsed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, uh there were just some some kind of endorsement of the UN convention on the rights of the child in Chapel Hill. We introduced a fair trade proposal. So, it, and it's the students who do this.
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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MW: Okay. After traveling through many cities in the state of Guanajuato, Mexico this past Spring Break and after staying in different towns with different families, I now have a better understanding of their opinions on immigration and the hardships the immigration process has caused. I discovered the primary struggle concerning immigration in many rural towns of Mexico is not the complexity of the physical journey to the United States, but it is more the separation of the family that makes the process of immigration extremely difficult for family members on each side of the border. Have you noticed signs of this hardship in our community?
JB: Yes, we've known people who return back to Mexico even though it would be very difficult for him to get a job because he really missed his family.
MW: Was he unhappy in the United States because of this of the family separation or for other reasons as well?
JB: The family separation.
MW: It was amazing to me while visiting in Mexico how the importance of the family overrode every other aspect of their lives. I really admire that. Do you know any immigrants who are completely content living in the Chapel Hill/Carrboro community.
JB: Well, a person who lives at the HRC I think is pretty content because he's the boss. He's what the town calls the caretaker. So he lives there, he keeps track of programs, he's the greeter. He makes friends with Latinos who move into the area. So he he has so much responsibility and we've trusted him so much that I think he's, I, he was on our panel on Sunday at the conference so I think he's happy.
MW: That's great news. Do you think that most immigrants that attend events of the Human Rights Center respect the efforts of this center? And what about our community population in general?
JB: Those who do come to our events have been very respectful of Latino customs,Burmese customs, it, they're relatively few people from outside of the community who come but now that we're on Barnes Street,
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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we've faced a challenge of, of, of tempting from people from Abby Court to come to Barnes Street and then the outreach in Barnes Street itself.
MW: Had you've had the same amount of attendance in the new location that you had at Abby Court?
JB: It just started last week (laughing).
MW: That's right. So, how has this week been? Has it been successful?
JB: I don't know. I, I'll have to check with the LINC.
MW: Okay, I hope, I hope it is. I hope the location change doesn't prevent Abby Court residents from attending classes.
JB: We got the gravel driveway in as fast as we possibly could, could, so we could give people optional parking.
MW: That's great, little improvements like that really make a difference.
JB: And you should see the inside. I mean it's the most flamboyant, extravaganza, Latino colors (laughing) imaginable.
MW: Who decorated it?
JB: Beto.
MW: Which is what?
JB: Who's Beto? Beto is, lives there.
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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MW: Okay. He is, is he an Abby Court resident?
JB: Now he's a Barnes Street resident (laughing)
MW: Okay so he moved from Abby Court to Barnes Street. Is Barnes Street another poor, immigrant community?
JB: There are disproportionate numbers of Latinos living on this street, but it its more; it’s relatively a more affluent community.
MW: Do Americans live in this community as well?
JB: Very few.
MW: Okay, so this community is pretty segregated as well?
JB: Yes.
MW: Okay. As an outsider.
JB: (interrupting) But we could find no Anglo community that would accept us. So..
MW: Why is that?
JB: Well,we don't want the riff ruff around, you know.
MW: Okay. As an outsider, our community seems to be very segregated. For example, when I walk through Carrboro I immediately can distinguish which stores are owned by Latinos and which are owned by Americans. Do you believe our community is really as segregated as it seems?
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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JB: (thinking) Yes.
MW: Elise told you last year that one of the students she worked with in Abbey Court told her that the reason he didn't try to develop relationships here was because he was afraid if he developed relationships here, he would forget his family and that de didn't want to split his life into two places. Do you think this is still the case for many immigrants?
JB: What a poignant story (laughing).
MW: Umm hmmm.
JB: Yea. Yea, it's hard. It's really hard.
MW: I think that if, the split were to happen, he would find more happiness here rather than just thinking about the family, the student missed back in Mexico. How do you think that our community can make, can make immigrants feel more welcome to split their lives maybe into two places?
JB: There could be Latino centers, Southeast Asian centers, scattered throughout the community. That the town takes more responsibility for, uh en encouraging the in the integration, by that I mean the recognition of differences. You are a Latino, I celebrate you. You are an Anglo, I celebrate you. It's not a homogenization.
MW: Okay. What major improvements, either within or outside of the Human Rights Center do you think Carrboro and Chapel Hill has seen in regards to improving rights for citizens?
JB: Hmmm. Their support for the worker's center.
MW: Is this a widespread, a widespread support?
JB: Umm no, but the two mayors, and the Chamber of Commerce are on board with it. Someone from the National Day Laborers Organizing Network is coming next week to talk with them and with us, to (Blau's cell Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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phone rings). It's the ice cream truck (laughing and ignoring the call). The, uh because of public campaigns and our our understanding of discrimination against African Americans, there has been considerable progress. I mean, you know, I almost hate to use that word because of the disparity in incarceration rates, the disparity in going to college rates, the disparity, and disparity in dropout rates. But in this community, there's, in the South, there is a more give and take between blacks and whites. And maybe that will happen between Latinos and the rest of the population.
MW: We can hope so. What are some of your current goals for the Human Rights Center?
JB: To get a worker's center going (laughing).
MW: Okay. What do you think our community can do to improve the relationship between Latinos and Americans?
JB: Well. Well, students who speak Spanish might get the the Carrboro Century Center or the Arts Center, and and reach out to Latinos and invite them in and have a collaborative music program.
MW: I like that idea. What other things do you think students can do?
JB: (thinking) I think my students who've had contact with both RINA and the Human Rights Center are beginning to put the pieces of the puzzles together.
MW: Okay. I think personal relationships will help improve the overarching relationship in our community with Latinos. Have you made any personal relationships with immigrants? And if so, how have you done so?
JB: Oh yes, I mean in Abby Court, I have many friends. The, part of its give and take. I mean if they don't trust me and it’s not likely we'll find friendship. Butwhen I get included in family affairs with jokes and laughter, I feel great (laughing).
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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MW: I bet they do too. Okay for our final question I would like to ask you, Overall, what do you think is the number one problem for Latinos in our community and what do you think is the best solution this problem?
JB: I, Amnesty (laughing). That everyone, well, need to be clarified but everyone be given US citizenship. They've been here for thirty years. There's no reason to deny them to access to services, to drive, to protection from the laws.
MW: Okay, good answer. Thank you so much for your time Dr. Blau. I look forward to sharing the rest of my research with you once my project is complete.
JB: Wonderful. Thank you very much.
MW: You're welcome.
JB: You're a good interviewer.
MW: Thank you.
Miranda Wodarski: Okay. This is an Interview with Dr. Blau on March 20, 2012. My name is Miranda Wodarski and I am a sophomore at UNC Chapel Hill. I am conducting this oral history project with hopes to learn more about human rights with regards to immigrants in Carrboro and Chapel Hill in order help link the American population with the immigrant community. It is Tuesday March 20th and it is about 1:45 in the afternoon.
Good Afternoon Dr. Blau, How are you today?
Judith Blau: I'm fine. Thank you, Miranda.
MW: Great. As you probably know, Latinos are today’s fastest growing minority in North Carolina. Recently the town of Chapel Hill, Carrboro, and surrounding areas have seen a steady growth in this segment of the population. I am currently in a global studies course focused on Latino perspectives and Mexican immigration to North Carolina. I have recently been to Guanajuato, Mexico to gain a greater understanding of the factors which fuel immigration to the United States and to gain a greater appreciation of the conditions of the sending communities. This immigration influx however, alters the dynamics of a traditionally homogenous community.
Much of the recent immigration in North Carolina is unwanted and therefore when immigrants do arrive to our community, community members become very hostile and unwelcoming towards the immigrants, which create a segregated community. One of my goals of this project is to discover why nearly
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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half of Americans believe immigrants are having a bad influence in our community. Another goal of mine is to discover ways to overcome these negative opinions Americans have towards immigrants and to help produce better relationships between immigrants and Americans in our community. I believe your work with the Human Rights Center is a great effort to ensure that Latinos in our community are treated equally and therefore I would like to learn more about your work.
I am currently a member of the organization called Linking Immigrants to New Communities (LINC) here at UNC and I am on the “Know Your Rights” committee. Through this committee and through the process of this project, I hope to learn more about the rights immigrants are entitled to in our community and to teach other Americans and Latinos about these rights in order for relationships to grow.
I am aware that you were interviewed last March by Elise Stephenson, another student at Chapel Hill. This interview is archived in the Southern Oral History Project Database in Wilson Library at UNC and is open for all students to access and to listen to. I listened to this interview in order to learn more about Elise’s project and also to learn more information about you and your profession.
I am very impressed by all of your work you have done in our community to guarantee Human Rights for everyone. I also volunteer at Abby Court as an ESL teacher and last semester I volunteered at Frank Porter Graham Elementary as a classroom helper in a Spanish dual-language class. I am still tutoring one of the first graders in Spanish reading and writing this semester.
With all that being said, I would like to focus today’s interview not only on Human rights guaranteed for everyone, but on the relationships our community has with the Latino immigrant community. By asking you a few questions, I hope learn more about the current status of the relationships between immigrants and Americans in our community and ways in which we can help. Let’s begin.
MW: You told Elise last year that you moved to North Carolina from New York primarily because of the Department of Sociology. I would first like to ask you about your experiences in New York with Latino immigrants. Did you work with any immigrants while living in New York? If so, what kind of interactions did you have?
JB: Our neighbors to the North, this was called the University are, and er to the North was primarily Puerto Rican. The homeless population was a diverse population. The the no, I was not doing immigration research or studies or advocacy at that time. Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
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MW: Okay. If you have had experience with the Latino community in New York, how would you describe the relationship between immigrants in New York with the American population?
JB: It's very similar to what we experience here. There is an isolation of the immigrants and the distress of uh of the white population of Latino immigrants.
MW: Do you think immigrants have the same types of jobs as Americans do?
JB: So, that's an interesting question. There's so much uh diversity within the Latino community as some are working in high level position in restaurants. Others as mechanics, very skilled mechanics. Others as day laborers. So there's there's great variation and that depends on the likelihood of their gaining citizen citizenship.
MW: I agree. Are the immigrants given the rights their entitled to in New York, as far as you know?
JB: No (laughing)
MW: Why do you say that?
JB: (laughing) Well, they're a completed marginalized population. (Birds chirping). As, African Americans were in the 1960's.
MW: Okay. Does the American community seem to respect the immigrant community?
JB: No. Your immigrant community is isolated and marginalized. The one major group in Carrboro/Chapel Hill are that have reached out to migrants and have been advocates for them is the NAACP.
MW: Could you explain what that organization does?
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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JB: It's the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. So their their, traditional they've been associated with the African American population but their title of this very successful national organization doesn't disclose a particular bias towards one group of colored people or another. Revered Campbell at the Sunday conference. He's the head of the NAACP and the director of RENA at Rogers Road. And he was just brilliant, I mean the expression of solidarity, we're in it together, uh let's go folks, black, brown, all shades of brown, we together will overcome the discrimination.
MW: That's great. Does he work primarily in North Carolina or is this a national organization he's the leader of.
JB: He’s the president of the local chapter of NAACP. And he's the director of RENA Rogers-Eubanks association in Rogers Road.
MW: Okay, interesting. So do you think that the American communities in either in New York or here interact frequently with the Latino population? Or do you think the populations are more segregated than integrated?
JB: They're segregated except for the employers who want to hire cheap labor.
MW: Could you give an example of those employers?
JB: We shut down a couple of restaurants (laughing) for violations of labor laws. The, we pursue as best we can the complaints of the day laborers of wait theft and abuse.
MW: When you say "we" who are you speaking of?
JB: We, the uh the staff of The Human Rights Organization
MW: Okay. And which labor laws are most commonly violated by these restaurant employers?
JB: Paying workers less than what they promised or not paying workers at all.
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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MW: Do you find out about these violations through the workers? Or how do you, how are you aware of these violations?
JB: We have a community organizer who spends half half of his time at the corner where day laborers hang out and so he, he, he receives accounts of these stories and then documents them and takes them to Department of Labor.
MW: Okay. That's a great way of doing things. Okay. After you moved to North Carolina from New York, when was your first interaction with a Latino immigrant? (Pause) If you can remember. (laughing).
JB: Well. (Pause). I'm not sure. I think more since I’ve moved to the country and I lived in a predominately black community and now which is becoming increasingly Latino and Latinos, Latinos take my classes.
MW: So do you think a student was your first major interaction with a Latino living in this community.
JB: Okay well I was, it, increasingly, let let me back up and say sociology for the most part emphasizes neutrality and detachment and I thought that was kind of hypocritical (laughing) because everyone I know in sociology, really, truly believes in equality and decency for all people. But they can't let that show up in their research. So, why not? So, well we're trying to live up to scientific standards and we fool ourselves when we think that we are being neutral and detached, we're not. Um, sociologist who study women are not detached. Socialists who study gay/lesbian people are not detached. Poverty, they're not. So we can't admit to our professed values and as I was a founder of the SEJ minor. And so it propelled me in to the direction of con confronting these shall we say, hypocritical values? And the and the students love it (laughing). The students were completely enthusiastic about service learning, about you know, commitment, engagement, so if if there was anything that pulled me into founding the Human Rights Center, it was university students. And then, the next step was to found, found the Human Rights Center.
MW: Okay so did you found the minor before the Human Rights Center?
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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JB: Yes.
MW: Could you describe briefly what the minor entails?
JB: The minor is, I believe, I'm no longer the director of SEJ, but I believe the minor is four courses and uh the first thing I did was to assemble an advisory board of very distinguished faculty and administrators so that if we were attacked by the outside, that we, they would defend us. As it turned out, we didn't need defending. And I taught that course as a theory course for several years. The (laughing) way I got pulled into founding the Human Rights Center, is a student, a first year graduate student, Rafael Gallegos. And I were Abbey Court handing out flyers for El Centro, which doesn't exist anymore and the security guard chased us around and yelled profanities at us. Oh and I had three hundred undergraduates with me.
MW: Wow.
JB: So, he said, he's going to call the police. And I said, "Don’t be silly," but of course it's private property. So he called the police, he called the Sheriff's Department and "zing zing zing zing zing zing," the bells go off and they pull up and the Carrboro Patrol man says, "we're going to have to trespass you unless you leave." So, I made sure that the undergraduates got out before encounter. And Rafael and I left. And I turned to him and I said, "We need to found, found a non-profit in this community. Then we're immune from this harassment." I called Mayor Chilton. I said, "What in the hell is going on?" (laughing). "We can't pass out flyers." And he said, "Call the Chief Police, Carolyn Hudgenson." Which I did, I met with her the next day. And she said, "Well, Judith, you know, you should be relieved that we didn't trespass you." (laughing) And so Carolyn and I have gotten along ever since then.
MW: Okay so have you had many struggles many struggles with trying to found the Human Rights Center, like this?
JB: No. Because the students were so engaged. And so eager play a role in form or another. One of the luckiest things that happened to us, I was walking across the Green Commons at Abbey Court, right after I bought the apartment and I saw a woman reading stories to, oh twenty children were all sitting on the grass. And I said,
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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"Well, who are you?" And she said, "I teach at Scroggs Elementary School." And I said, "Oh you don't have to sit out here, come in!" (laughing) So she started an after school program and it has been a huge success.
MW: Why did you decide to buy property in Abbey Court?
JB: Because it's the poorest immigrant community in the county.
MW: Did you know this ahead of time by research? Or how were aware of this?
JB: I think more, more by my observation. The the day laborers, most of the day laborers, live at Abbey Court and they are very poor.
MW: Yes, the students who come to the ESL classes at Abbey Court, you can tell they're day laborers and they work for a day by day salary and it's very sad, but it's great that we have this apartment that we have to work with them and it's so great to see how anxious they are to come every week and to learn English. So I really appreciate that we have this environment to do so.
JB: Well let me congratulate you. It's beginning to show. The, my Spanish is practically non-existent, but that turns out to be okay because people try to communicate with me in English. And they keep getting better and better and better.
MW: That's great. That really makes me feel, special for helping them because I'm not always sure that what I'm teaching sticks in their mind because English is a hard language for them to learn and they've told me that many times, but it really makes me warm when I see how anxious they are to learn and then when they use English outside of the class, that's great. Okay so, please describe your intentions when founding the Human Rights Center here in Carrboro. Were they focused in ensuring the rights of Latinos in our community?
JB: More so, initially more as a vehicle of teaching and, applying human rights standards. Now it turns out (laughing) that human rights means everything: the right to food, the right to water, the right to housing, the right to medical to care, the right to a decent job, the rights of women, the rights of minorities (laughing) and it
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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spans the whole spectrum, so we grow because most often students propose programs that are in sync with that mission.
MW: Okay, good answer. According to your experience, which rights are most commonly violated for Latinos in our community?
JB: Labor rights.
MW: Labor rights within, you mentioned, you earlier mentioned restaurants, but what other labor rights have been violated?
JB: Construction. The lat, we welcome the Latinos. From El Salvador, from Honduras, Ecuador. "Come come to America, we have jobs for you, they're low income jobs, but they're better than you can make in your own community," which has been decimated by neoliberalism (laughing). And "so if you come to, come to American and there will be work." (Pause). We don't guarantee you citizenship at all. But we guarantee you work. So now the Latinos who've been here fifteen, eighteen years there is no cue for citizenship. They're they're stuck. And they can't drive a car. Um, they're...now they are protected under the Department of Labor laws. Both at the state and the Federal level. That's really important and that' is what we hold employers accountable for.
MW: Okay. That is very sad, but hopefully we're moving in the right direction to help them. What does the Human Rights Center specifically do in order to prevent these violations?
JB: To prevent them. Well we're whistle blowers when they're violated. Weare planning a big step forward and that’s to create a worker's center where workers and employers will come and employers will be required to register. There’re forty six centers in the United States, the two mayors are sort of abstractly backing this. It, it's (pause) I mean there are there are all kinds of challenges when, when we were kicked out of Abbey Court for violated Home Owner's Association Rules. I mean what we contributed to Abbey Court was tremendous (laughing). That they would kick us out, I found quite surprising, but they did. And the mayor came to bat for us. I went to a Home Owner's Association meeting for Tar Heel Real.., for for Tar Heel Company and there
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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were only three people, three adults who were on that board. Which I found a little surprising. And I gave a presentation and presented them with a petition that was signed by twenty two hundred plus, mostly undergraduates. Plus a lovely set of drawings and pictures by the children. "We don't want to leave Abbey Court," and so they just brushed them aside and then in walked Mayor Chilton. Uh and he took out his his recorder, like you have, and they said, they screamed at him and said "put that away," and he said, "no, no, no this is a public meeting." So he, tape recorded the whole thing. They were going to asses a three hundred dollar a day fine. Three hundred dollar a day fine, wow. Um (pause) so he, Mayor Chilton pulled the CEO of Tar Heel Reality back into another room and they talked, I ignored you, they talked about. And then I heard that the three hundred dollar day would be reinstated but we would have to leave by March 1. I said, "No, no, no March 1 is terrible for the students, for the programs." For LINC for example, discontinuity. And they said, "no, it's March 1, so several spent the Winter break looking for another house, another house and we found one on Barnes Street, which is very close. Now, you know we do have a progressive town. They voted to end the war in Iraq, for example. Politically progressive and believe in organic food, etc, etc, but when it comes to having immigrants in their community they're not so progressive. We went, we found several possibilities for houses and nimbyism, and you know what that is? Are not in my backyard.
MW: Ohhh.
JB: Nimbyism is rampant even in Abbey Court, even in Carrboro. So we found the Barnes Street house that we, so far so good.
MW: Okay, that's great news. You mentioned the new Worker Program you're trying to implement.
JB: Ummm hmm
MW: Now I'm aware, I don't know much about the efforts of El Centro, but you mentioned that that was also shut down. Didn't El Centro have a worker program like the one you’re describing to implement or am I wrong?
JB: No they didn't have am employer day laborer's program. They did offer a lot of services.
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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MW: Which kind of services did they offer?
JB: It was a very busy office. Legal services? ESL classes, children's classes, then shortly after they shut down, El Centro Hispano moved in. But El Centro Hispano is so far away from the core uh population of Latinos.
MW: That's why Abbey Court is a great location because it's only a mile from, a mile or two from campus and it's in the center of Carrboro.
JB: Yea.
MW: So that's good news. Do you work at all with El Centro Hispano?
JB: Yes.
MW: What do you with them?
JB: Okay, they loaned us fifty translation devices for our conference on Sunday (laughing). I frequently stop by to say hello. My students have the opportunity volunteering there. The the limitation of course is Spanish. But they're a good ally.
MW: I've always wanted to work with El Centro Hispano, but like you said it's a little but further away so it makes it harder, for me to uh get there. So,f from what you described your students have worked a lot with the immigrant population. Is this because you're class requires them to? Or is it by choice? Could you please describe a little about the classes that you teach and the students that work in your classes.
JB: Uh now, there's no choice. The students are all given, right now they're twenty eight uh possibilities to volunteer at the HRC. And its thirty hours per semester. This semester of course was very complicated because we can't, we can't yet start the after school program. We’rewaiting for the fire marshal to sign off on the electrical wiring. But that will happen next week. So we will be offering a full range of services. Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
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MW: Okay, that's good news. Are, is the course that you teach an APPLES course?
JB: Yes.
MW: Okay and what's the title of this course? It sounds very interesting.
JB: Social and Economic Justice.
MW: Okay, good to know. Okay, how?
JB: That's all I teach.
MW: That's the only course you teach?
JB: I teach, enrollments can go up to two hundred in a given section, if I allow it to (laughing)
MW: Do you usually have a class size of two hundred?
JB: No.
MW: What's the average class size?
JB: Uh a hundred and fifteen.
MW: That's still a lot, especially for an APPLES course.
JB: Yes. Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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MW: I took Spanish 204 APPLES last semester and then the Latino Perspective class I'm in now is also an APPLES course but each class had no more than twenty people in it, so that's great that you're able to teach so many students because I bet it's a very popular course. (Pause). I’m curious to know how Latinos in our community know about the Human Rights Center and how they get the news about the events that the Human Rights Center has for our community.
JB: Uh, we distribute flyers and pamphlets. Tomorrow we are distributing tamales (laughing).
MW: Ohhh. Yum!
JB: (Laughing) We generally have two festivals a year. One, Dos Pasados, which is Latino and the other, is Thingyon which is Burmese I think and Quran. And of course there are all of kinds of things.
MW: Okay, that's great. And are those directed solely at Latino immigrants or at every community member?
JB: Every, they're, they have been Abby Court based. And that includes some quaran and Burmese families.
MW: Okay how do these different ethnicities interact with each other?
JB: Because of language, they don't.
MW: Do they even acknowledge each other or is it just the language barrier that keeps them from even, even saying hello?
JB: Oh the children do. I mean the children they they don't care (laughing) what what your what the other person's ethnicity or race is, they just, the children are fantastic. So it it will change with generation.
MW: Okay. Concerning the language barrier, do you think that is a major issue in our community with the Latino population and the American population? As far as segregation goes, do you think that is one of the major problems?
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
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JB: Yes, yeah it's not all dis discrimination, it's also the objective language differences.
MW: What do you think the best solution to overcome this language barrier is?
JB: Dual language programs in elementary and secondary schools.
MW: I agree. Do you think that Americans should be working to learn the language of Spanish at an older adult age, for example, the employers that are trying to employ the Latino immigrants. Do you think they should learn Spanish? And the immigrants not learn English? Or do you think it's a two way thing?
JB: It's a two way street.
MW: I agree with that as well. That's one of the main reasons I'm studying Spanish. (Pause) Okay. Do you think our community overall supports the efforts of the Human Rights Center?
JB: (Pause) Okay, in the United States Human Rights is not a known, perspective. I mean here on campus I think increasingly undergraduates are becoming familiar with human rights. In the rest of the world, where countries, is, ratify treaties, human rights treaties, the treaty to eliminate uh discrimination against women, the economic, social, cultural rights, civil and political rights, it, these are discussed in town halls. And and widely understood as part of the process of globalism. Uh if, we need, Human Rights provide a framework for us to relate to people everywhere. But Americans, have never heard about it. We don't ratify the treaties.
MW: Are you working to overcome that problem?
JB: Uh Chapel Hill and Carrboro have, are, as you proposed, endorsed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, uh there were just some some kind of endorsement of the UN convention on the rights of the child in Chapel Hill. We introduced a fair trade proposal. So, it, and it's the students who do this.
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
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MW: Okay. After traveling through many cities in the state of Guanajuato, Mexico this past Spring Break and after staying in different towns with different families, I now have a better understanding of their opinions on immigration and the hardships the immigration process has caused. I discovered the primary struggle concerning immigration in many rural towns of Mexico is not the complexity of the physical journey to the United States, but it is more the separation of the family that makes the process of immigration extremely difficult for family members on each side of the border. Have you noticed signs of this hardship in our community?
JB: Yes, we've known people who return back to Mexico even though it would be very difficult for him to get a job because he really missed his family.
MW: Was he unhappy in the United States because of this of the family separation or for other reasons as well?
JB: The family separation.
MW: It was amazing to me while visiting in Mexico how the importance of the family overrode every other aspect of their lives. I really admire that. Do you know any immigrants who are completely content living in the Chapel Hill/Carrboro community.
JB: Well, a person who lives at the HRC I think is pretty content because he's the boss. He's what the town calls the caretaker. So he lives there, he keeps track of programs, he's the greeter. He makes friends with Latinos who move into the area. So he he has so much responsibility and we've trusted him so much that I think he's, I, he was on our panel on Sunday at the conference so I think he's happy.
MW: That's great news. Do you think that most immigrants that attend events of the Human Rights Center respect the efforts of this center? And what about our community population in general?
JB: Those who do come to our events have been very respectful of Latino customs,Burmese customs, it, they're relatively few people from outside of the community who come but now that we're on Barnes Street,
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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we've faced a challenge of, of, of tempting from people from Abby Court to come to Barnes Street and then the outreach in Barnes Street itself.
MW: Had you've had the same amount of attendance in the new location that you had at Abby Court?
JB: It just started last week (laughing).
MW: That's right. So, how has this week been? Has it been successful?
JB: I don't know. I, I'll have to check with the LINC.
MW: Okay, I hope, I hope it is. I hope the location change doesn't prevent Abby Court residents from attending classes.
JB: We got the gravel driveway in as fast as we possibly could, could, so we could give people optional parking.
MW: That's great, little improvements like that really make a difference.
JB: And you should see the inside. I mean it's the most flamboyant, extravaganza, Latino colors (laughing) imaginable.
MW: Who decorated it?
JB: Beto.
MW: Which is what?
JB: Who's Beto? Beto is, lives there.
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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MW: Okay. He is, is he an Abby Court resident?
JB: Now he's a Barnes Street resident (laughing)
MW: Okay so he moved from Abby Court to Barnes Street. Is Barnes Street another poor, immigrant community?
JB: There are disproportionate numbers of Latinos living on this street, but it its more; it’s relatively a more affluent community.
MW: Do Americans live in this community as well?
JB: Very few.
MW: Okay, so this community is pretty segregated as well?
JB: Yes.
MW: Okay. As an outsider.
JB: (interrupting) But we could find no Anglo community that would accept us. So..
MW: Why is that?
JB: Well,we don't want the riff ruff around, you know.
MW: Okay. As an outsider, our community seems to be very segregated. For example, when I walk through Carrboro I immediately can distinguish which stores are owned by Latinos and which are owned by Americans. Do you believe our community is really as segregated as it seems?
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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JB: (thinking) Yes.
MW: Elise told you last year that one of the students she worked with in Abbey Court told her that the reason he didn't try to develop relationships here was because he was afraid if he developed relationships here, he would forget his family and that de didn't want to split his life into two places. Do you think this is still the case for many immigrants?
JB: What a poignant story (laughing).
MW: Umm hmmm.
JB: Yea. Yea, it's hard. It's really hard.
MW: I think that if, the split were to happen, he would find more happiness here rather than just thinking about the family, the student missed back in Mexico. How do you think that our community can make, can make immigrants feel more welcome to split their lives maybe into two places?
JB: There could be Latino centers, Southeast Asian centers, scattered throughout the community. That the town takes more responsibility for, uh en encouraging the in the integration, by that I mean the recognition of differences. You are a Latino, I celebrate you. You are an Anglo, I celebrate you. It's not a homogenization.
MW: Okay. What major improvements, either within or outside of the Human Rights Center do you think Carrboro and Chapel Hill has seen in regards to improving rights for citizens?
JB: Hmmm. Their support for the worker's center.
MW: Is this a widespread, a widespread support?
JB: Umm no, but the two mayors, and the Chamber of Commerce are on board with it. Someone from the National Day Laborers Organizing Network is coming next week to talk with them and with us, to (Blau's cell Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
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phone rings). It's the ice cream truck (laughing and ignoring the call). The, uh because of public campaigns and our our understanding of discrimination against African Americans, there has been considerable progress. I mean, you know, I almost hate to use that word because of the disparity in incarceration rates, the disparity in going to college rates, the disparity, and disparity in dropout rates. But in this community, there's, in the South, there is a more give and take between blacks and whites. And maybe that will happen between Latinos and the rest of the population.
MW: We can hope so. What are some of your current goals for the Human Rights Center?
JB: To get a worker's center going (laughing).
MW: Okay. What do you think our community can do to improve the relationship between Latinos and Americans?
JB: Well. Well, students who speak Spanish might get the the Carrboro Century Center or the Arts Center, and and reach out to Latinos and invite them in and have a collaborative music program.
MW: I like that idea. What other things do you think students can do?
JB: (thinking) I think my students who've had contact with both RINA and the Human Rights Center are beginning to put the pieces of the puzzles together.
MW: Okay. I think personal relationships will help improve the overarching relationship in our community with Latinos. Have you made any personal relationships with immigrants? And if so, how have you done so?
JB: Oh yes, I mean in Abby Court, I have many friends. The, part of its give and take. I mean if they don't trust me and it’s not likely we'll find friendship. Butwhen I get included in family affairs with jokes and laughter, I feel great (laughing).
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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MW: I bet they do too. Okay for our final question I would like to ask you, Overall, what do you think is the number one problem for Latinos in our community and what do you think is the best solution this problem?
JB: I, Amnesty (laughing). That everyone, well, need to be clarified but everyone be given US citizenship. They've been here for thirty years. There's no reason to deny them to access to services, to drive, to protection from the laws.
MW: Okay, good answer. Thank you so much for your time Dr. Blau. I look forward to sharing the rest of my research with you once my project is complete.
JB: Wonderful. Thank you very much.
MW: You're welcome.
JB: You're a good interviewer.
MW: Thank you.
