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https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/3a5851c80d2715e024bf00301ff2e631.mp3
7e533136e88608c03ed65f4cfdad547b
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/48d681db24c15caab275e3c8101fb87f.pdf
5ce80399cd18d9f15925e424f6d6bb0f
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-1018
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
Fecha
2023-03-27
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Avilés de León, Lornaida.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Professors
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1981
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Rio Piedras -- Puerto Rico
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Chapel Hill -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-66.050111 18.3974229),1981,1;POINT(-79.0507539 35.9098278),1993,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Bautista-Ayala, Johana.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Spanish
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Lornaida Avilés de León is a Teaching Assistant Professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill in the Department of Romance Studies, a Collaborative Online International Learning (COIL) Faculty Fellow, and a Study Abroad Faculty Leader. Lornaida was born in San Juan, Puerto Rico and migrated to the US when she was 12. During this interview, she tells us her family’s migration experience due to environmental factors, and details specifically the many challenges the island faces due to hurricanes. These include the instability of the power grid, the detrimental effects of that incertitude on residents and businesses, the way in which disaster aid is affected by the Jones Act of 1920, the toll of hurricane-readiness on the elderly and poorer residents of the island, and the pace of rebuilding efforts. Lornaida concludes the interview by describing Puerto Rico’s tourism-dominated economy and shares her thoughts on areas to visit besides San Juan.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Lornaida Avilés de León by Johana Bautista-Ayala, 27 March 2023, R-1018, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29367
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Education; Climate change; Communications technology; Migratory experience
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Profesores
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Español
Es: Resumen
Avilés de León es Profesora Asistente de Enseñanza en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill en el Departamento de Filología Románica, Becaria de la Facultad de Aprendizaje Internacional Colaborativo en Línea (COIL) y Líder de la Facultad de Estudios en el Extranjero. Lornaida nació en San Juan de Puerto Rico y emigró a Estados Unidos cuando tenía 12 años. Durante esta entrevista, nos cuenta la experiencia migratoria de su familia debido a factores medioambientales, y detalla específicamente los numerosos retos a los que se enfrenta la isla debido a los huracanes. Entre ellos, la inestabilidad de la red eléctrica, los efectos perjudiciales de esa incertidumbre para los residentes y las empresas, la forma en que la asistencia para catástrofes se ve afectada por el Acta Jones de 1920, el costo de la preparación para huracanes para los ancianos y los residentes más pobres de la isla, y el ritmo de los esfuerzos de reconstrucción. Lornaida concluye la entrevista describiendo la economía de Puerto Rico, dominada por el turismo, y comparte su opinión sobre zonas turísticas para visitar aparte de San Juan.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Lornaida Avilés de León por Johana Bautista-Ayala, 27 March 2023, R-1018, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Educación ; Cambio climático; Experiencia migratoria; Tecnología de las comunicaciones
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
[00:00:03] Johana Bautista: Mi nombre es Johana Bautista, soy una estudiante de aquí de la Universidad del North Carolina en Chapel Hill. Hoy tengo el placer de entrevistar a alguien muy importante y quiero dejar que ella se introduzca en este momento.
[00:00:15] Loranida Avilés de León: Hola, mi nombre es Lornaida Avilés de León y soy profesora de español y cultura aquí en la universidad de Chapel Hill.
JB: Me puede decir un poquito más sobre su historia de migración, ¿cómo su familia llegó a este país?
LA: Sí, bueno como muchos puertorriqueños en mi familia siempre he tenido conexiones fuertes a los Estados Unidos por toda la historia de Puerto Rico. La historia de la familia de mi mama, en particular, es interesante porque mi mama es de una isla pequeña que está en el este de Puerto Rico, que se llama Vieques. Y Vieques en los años cuarenta fue, básicamente, no sé cuál es la palabra correcta, pero fue controlado por el Navy de los Estados Unidos. Y por esa relación mi mamá--la familia de mi mamá, perdón--tienen muchos Americanos que se han casado con, particularmente con las mujeres de la familia. Mi mama desde niña estuvo muy expuesta al inglés; aprendió inglés, se lo enseñó ella sola. Y al tener dos hermanas que se mudaron a los Estados Unidos jóvenes, casadas con Navy marinos, ella viajaba mucho a los Estados Unidos y siempre estaba metida en esa cultura--como quien dice, también. Mi papa es la típica historia inmigrante en el sentido de que sus padres--bueno, perdón, su mamá, mi abuela--se mudó en un momento a Nueva York a trabajar, como tantos puertorriqueños. Y mi papá nace en Puerto Rico, pero vive en Nueva York sus primeros 5, 6 años en el Bronx. Y sus papás trabajaban--básicamente mi abuelo y mi padrastro trabajan todo el día y papi básicamente se crio solo, y por eso hoy tenemos esa relación tan fuerte. Él aprende inglés al igual que aprende español, mi mamá también, y se conocen en Puerto Rico. Y cuando yo tenía ya 11, 12 años, la situación económica para mi familia se puso bien difícil, y mi papa va a trabajar a Colombia. Porque mi papá trabaja en los casinos, él es el gerente de casinos. Y lo contratan para abrir casinos en Bogotá y Cali. Y él se muda allí, entonces mis padres toman la decisión de mudarnos a nosotros--a mami, a mi hermana y a mí--a la Florida donde teníamos familia. Una de mis tías que se casó con un americano. Porque honestamente el costo de vida era más barato, y también al nosotras estar solas, papi se sentía más cómodo que estuviéramos cerca de la familia ahí. Así es como llegamos, historia larga pero así es como llegamos [Laughter] a los Estados Unidos.
JB: ¿Y su papá siguió viviendo en Colombia?
LA: Sí, él estuvo allí un año completo mientras nosotras estuvimos en la Florida y después él deja ese trabajo, porque la cosa--fue en los años 90s, Colombia estaba bien peligroso--y él consigue un trabajo en Missouri, St. Louis, Missouri, cuando se abrieron los casinos, los “riverboats,” y así es que terminamos en Missouri.
JB: ¿Y él siguió trabajando con los casinos?
LA: Sí, hasta este año, se acabó de jubilarse en diciembre del 2022.
JB: Oh wow, muchas gracias por darnos ese “recap” de su historia de migración. Ahora, quiero preguntarle sobre lo que usted piensa en la migración que ha sido causada a causa de factores “environmental,” y si usted o tal vez algún familiar ha sido afectado.
LA: Bueno sí, definitivamente ha afectado a la familia, María en particular, porque obviamente fue tan extremo y tan reciente. Pero, la manera en que yo se lo describo a la gente es que vivir en Puerto Rico es difícil. Ya es difícil por razones económicas y por el crimen, entonces cuando le añades el componente de los huracanes, a veces se hace imposible. I mean, yo tuve un tío en la isla, un hermano de mi mama en el Vieques, que estuvo sin electricidad un año… un hombre de 89 años, y él tuvo que ir a Texas, el migró por un tiempo. Estuvo allá 6 meses con unos de sus hijos, pero honestamente los huracanes--. Y también algo interesante, perdón, una pausa--. No es el huracán, es lo que pasa después del huracán. Porque obviamente la tormenta es fuerte y hay destrucción; pero es el colapso de la infraestructura, el no poder encontrar comida, la gente no podía ni sacar dinero de las ATH, nadie tenía efectivo, no había nada. Y eso a largo plazo, cuando hablas de las familias que tienen niños en la escuela, es algo que son cosas que hay que considerar cuando uno quiere quedarse en la isla, porque es difícil. Te puedo contar de mi familia, yo tengo varias primas que estaban en la escuela intermedia durante María, y mis tíos lo que hicieron fueron sacarlas y mandarlas a la Florida por ese semestre para que no perdieran el semestre. Porque si no, no iban a poder tomar clases, es algo que siempre está allí, que siempre hay de considerar. Y aun cuando no es temporada de huracanes, como ahora por ejemplo que no ha comenzado, pero la electricidad se va casi diario. Y eso es algo que es un resultado de, obviamente, de problemas económicos, pero también afectan, han sido afectados por los huracanes, eso es algo que siempre está presente como quien dice.
JB: ¿Y cuando la electricidad se va me imagino que no hay manera de pagar si no tienen cash?
LA: Bueno, sí, afectan los negocios. Honestamente, la preocupación grande en las casas es que [Laughter] la electricidad cuando se va y regresa, cambia el voltaje. Entonces eventualmente te daña todos los sensores electrónicos, como la nevera, con toda la compra y la comida, se te va, la televisión. Y también, en Puerto Rico hace mucho calor. Si se te va la electricidad, y esto es, you know, “first-world problems,” pero se te va la electricidad y para personas que tienen problemas de salud, es difícil si está 80 y algo de grados no tener por lo menos un abanico. Sí, y los negocios obviamente si va la luz hay que cerrar la tienda y esperar, si no tienen una planta.
JB: ¿Así que cuando viene un huracán las personas ya se esperan, digamos, que van a pedir la electricidad?
LA: O definitivamente sí, eso es asumido.
JB: Van a perder acceso a todo eso.
LA: Y el acceso al agua también, ese es otro problema porque las plantas de agua son eléctricas mayormente, entonces si se va la electricidad se te va el agua en seguida, entonces hay que hacer muchas preparaciones para todo esto.
JB: Entonces me imagino que hay un “shortage” de agua cuando ya va a venir un huracán, porque la gente comienza a comprar.
LA: No, el pánico--. Sí, porque todo el mundo--bueno, aunque la gente siempre trata de prepararse lo más posible--pero sí, el pánico es inmediato y en las tiendas no se pueden encontrar nada, nada, nada. Lo que nosotros llamamos porterías, lo que es cualquier tipo de comida en lata, se va enseguida, agua, todas las cosas que no se dañan si no hay electricidad.
JB: Y usted tocó un punto muy interesante de que no es mucho el huracán si no los efectos después, ¿cómo cree usted que el gobierno de Puerto Rico podría mejorar esta situación para puertorriqueños?
LA: [Laughter] Honestamente, en Puerto Rico es super complicado porque no es solamente un problema económico, es un problema político también. Puerto Rico tiene lo que se llama el Jones Act, que es algo que se firmó en el 2017 que básicamente limita las cosas que pueden llegar directamente a la isla. Todo tiene que venir a los Estados Unidos primero y después puede ir a Puerto Rico. Eso significa que todo es más caro y que si un país le quiere dar ayuda inmediato a Puerto Rico durante una crisis, tiene que pedir permiso primero del gobierno de los Estados Unidos. Y si el gobierno de los Estados Unidos quiere--. Que, por ejemplo, durante María, Trump se rehusó por completo a pausar El Jones Act. Lo ideal obviamente sería tener una infraestructura más estable. Durante María, por ejemplo, también se perdió todas las redes eléctricas, todas, todos los postes. Y en vez de reconstruirlas de una manera que sea más sostenible, más verde, más lo que sea, hay una ley que solo le permite al gobierno mejorar lo que existe, no puede reemplazarlo por completo. Son cosas así que limitan mucho las respuestas del gobierno, además de la corrupción y los otros problemas que hay. Porque los huracanes van a continuar. Esa es la realidad. Pero sí, se podrían tener sistemas, especialmente de ayuda externa, que ayudarían mucho más rápido a la población.
JB: Okay. Y usted habló de que la ley que existe, ¿verdad? ¿Esa ley es del gobierno de los Estados Unidos o es de Puerto Rico?
LA: No, es una ley federal.
JB: Ah, okay, okay. Wow. Okay y bueno, ya hemos hablado bastante de los efectos que han ocurrido, ya me imagino. ¿Ósea, ahorita en este momento tiene familiares que están en Puerto?
LA: Sí. Básicamente la mitad de mi familia todavía está allá. Sí. Y nosotros tenemos casa también. Ósea, yo visito tres veces al año. Sí.
JB: Y ellos también son afectados, me imagino, porque no hay excepciones, ¿verdad?
LA: Ajá.
JB: Sí. Bueno. ¿Y cómo es el proceso de cuando ellos saben que viene el huracán? ¿Cuál es? Porque usted me acaba de decir que su tío a veces ha--. Bueno, en ese instante mandó a sus hijas a estudiar a Florida, pero cuál es el proceso de decir okay, este huracán va a ser muy muy malo, tenemos que enviar la gente afuera, ¿cuál es la manera de que ellos toman ese estadístico o esa decisión?
LA: Es una buena pregunta, te voy a decir algo honestamente, eso no es algo que pasa normalmente. Porque, qué se yo, no sé si es que la gente está acostumbrada o que saben cómo lidiar. Nosotros como familia nos preocupamos obviamente más por las personas bien mayores, como mi tío, porque es que--. Imagínate ellos por su edad y por muchas circunstancias no pueden lidiar con los problemas. Y aún con el ejemplo que te doy de mi tío, nosotros lo vacamos después, porque nosotros teníamos una idea de que María era fuerte, pero no lo que pasó. Y otro problema con María también fue que María--. Normalmente los huracanes en Puerto Rico entran en el área norte, y nosotros tenemos una cordillera central que es unas montañas, que básicamente crean un “rain shadow effect,” y en el sur no llueve y es más seco, y normalmente está protegido de los huracanes. María entró por el sur, ósea que cortó la isla literalmente por el medio y el problema con eso es que, en un huracán regular, tú puedes ir al sur a buscar hielo, a buscar comida, a buscar lo que sea, agua. Aquí fue toda la isla. Y nosotros, honestamente, nadie--. No te puede decir que mucha gente honestamente sabía lo que venía de una manera realista. Pero cuando vienen huracanes, y las preparaciones son bastante rutinas, inmediato es ir al supermercado para encontrar lo que puedas encontrar. También nosotros hacemos cosas como que llenamos las bañeras de agua para tener agua para lavar y también para usar los baños, el inodoro, llenamos todos los cubos que tengamos. Entonces después, cuando ya tienes eso establecido, llenar el carro de gasolina también. La mayoría de las casas tienen tormenteras, que son, este, un sistema que vienen de metal que se ponen en las ventanas. Se cierra la casa lo más que se puede, si se puede, o se pone madera. Y a esperar, a tener baterías para tener una radio, y básicamente esperar que pase la tormenta.
JB: ¿Y cómo se comunican de afuera, o de o de adentro para afuera?
LA: Pues ese es un problema de siempre. Obviamente, si hay líneas de teléfono, los que tengan todavía líneas “old school” de teléfono, pues eso funciona. Pero, por ejemplo, durante María yo no tuve información de mi familia por dos semanas. Nada. Porque obviamente, si no hay electricidad, no hay internet, y si no hay internet y las torres de teléfono celular no funcionaban, eso--la comunicación siempre es algo que es difícil. Pero también te digo que ahí es donde la comunidad se ayuda mucho, porque tan pronto alguien se puede comunicar ayuda a todas las otras personas a comunicarse. Indirectamente nos enteramos de que esta persona está bien porque el vecino, o la prima, o quien sea, nos hace llegar la información de alguna manera.
JB: Entonces me imagino que son bien unidos todos ahí.
LA: Sí, es que no hay otra opción honestamente, porque en lo que llega la ayuda del gobierno, los vecinos son honestamente tu primer recurso.
JB: Y cómo vamos a decir que yo soy una persona que vive en los Estados Unidos, ¿cómo yo puedo ayudar personas que están en Puerto Rico que tal vez hayan pasado durante un huracán?
LA: Bueno inicialmente es un poquito difícil, inicialmente yo recomiendo que usen a las organizaciones, pero organizaciones con reputación, no cualquier persona que dice yo voy a ayudar. El Red Cross es un poquito controversial, según otras personas, pero tienen los recursos para llegar. Además de eso, hay muchas organizaciones en Puerto Rico, NGOs, este, sin fines de lucro que ayudan a las poblaciones, o ellos normalmente usan las redes para pedir ayuda, etcétera. Y también, si conocen a una persona, a veces enviarle--yo tuve que hacer esto mucho más a mi familia--enviarle una caja de Amazon con baterías, con luces, este, solares, cosas así que son básicas, pero que en una tormenta son esenciales, honestamente, cuando no tienes electricidad por mucho tiempo.
JB: ¿Y cuándo mandan así cosas como por Amazon, me imagino que cuesta llegar más que lo normal?
LA: Curiosamente no cuesta mucho más. Toma mucho más tiempo, sí. Que aquí estamos acostumbrados a que nos lleguen cinco días, allá puede ser que sea una o dos semanas llega. Porque como te digo, después de María yo pude enviar varias cajas a familiares.
JB: Yo no sabía que se podía enviar cajas de acá.
LA: Sí, la tecnología.
JB: Sí. Bueno, quiero regresar al tema de cómo los efectos en el “environment” pueden afectar la migración. Y yo sé que usted a veces enseña en sus clases sobre migración y también sobre las leyes. Pero me pregunto, más de los otros países que también han sido afectados por diferentes tormentas o diferentes situaciones, como el Huracán Mitch que pasó, que también causó bastante
LA: En América Central
JB: Sí, en América Central. Cosas de migración. Entonces a ver si usted puede dar unos puntos sobre qué es lo que piensa de lo que ha estado pasando en los últimos años, y cómo el futuro se ve con esas, con esa situación tal vez.
LA: Sí, honestamente el futuro no es muy alentador porque desafortunadamente lo que estamos viendo es un aumento de la frecuencia y la intensidad de las tormentas, y no solo las tormentas, los terremotos y muchos otros tipos de desastres naturales. Y desafortunadamente lo que pasa en muchas partes de Latinoamérica es que afecta a las poblaciones que tienen los recursos, o no, perdón, no tienen los recursos para lidiar con ningún tipo de extra “anything.” Eso siempre es lo triste, son víctimas que ya son víctimas, como quien dice, de otras circunstancias. Y la pregunta es ¿qué se puede hacer? Porque a veces también, por ejemplo, cuando tú tienes un huracán como Mitch, que básicamente corto América Central es--. Tienes a tres o cuatro países afectados, estás hablando de miles de personas, ¿qué se hace? Y ahí es cuando--bueno, esto es un poquito más político, pero es crear sistemas, ¿verdad? Para apoyar a estas personas en esas situaciones. Pero se complica mucho porque cuando hablas de la infraestructura, estás hablando de áreas que no están acostumbradas a huracanes, que son casas de madera, o si son casas de cemento no son casas construidas correctamente de cemento, y cuando tú le añades una tormenta que dura veinticuatro horas se complica mucho la cosa. Es triste honestamente ver que, con la frecuencia de que tanto está pasando, y la migración, y yo no los culpo porque yo he pasado por huracanes en Puerto Rico y sé lo difícil que es quedarse. No me imagino si yo tuviera menos recursos en un país, ¿qué haces? ¿Dónde comienzas? ¿Con qué reconstruyes si no tienes trabajo, si no tienes los recursos? Desafortunadamente sí, el futuro no es muy alentador. [Laughter].
JB: Sí. Y ahora de su experiencia o su opinión, lo que ha visto, ¿la migración es más fácil antes de una tormenta o después de una tormenta?
LA: Yo di--. Bueno, es que depende, pero yo obviamente--. Antes sí, porque después se complica mucho la cosa. Y eso asumiendo que los aeropuertos están funcionando y que hay medios de transportación, porque obviamente el huracán afecta todo, no es selectivo en cuanto a solo afecta casos, solo afecta edificios, ¿no? Es todo y en particular, las carreteras, por ejemplo, se hace bien difícil salir de un vecindario y más allá salir de un área. Lo ideal honestamente es salir antes, pero también, eso requiere muchos recursos, mucho dinero. Y a veces tiempo, que si tú tienes a miles de personas que están tratando de salir del país, es difícil encontrar un vuelo. Y los precios, bueno, yo recuerdo que los precios antes de María subieron a miles y miles de dólares porque todo el mundo quería irse, o las personas que podían, querían irse, so…
JB: Wow, bueno, muchas gracias por compartir todo eso y ahora quiero preguntarle algo que tal vez sea un poquito más político [Laughter], ¿pero usted cree que Puerto Rico es parte de los Estados Unidos?
LA: Sí, sí, I mean, somos un territorio. No es opcional. [Laughter]
JB: Porque hay muchas personas que dicen que sí, aunque los Estados Unidos obtuvo esta isla, a veces muchas personas piensan que no, Puerto Rico separado, no les gusta decir que-.
LA: Bueno, te clarifico la respuesta con decirte que nosotros somos un territorio y en mi opinión, a mí me encantaría ver a la isla como un país independiente. Pero Puerto Rico no está en una situación económica, ni en una situación en cuanto a la infraestructura económica, para ser un país independiente porque hemos sido una colonia básicamente por mucho tiempo. Y las consecuencias de eso son que somos bien dependientes de los Estados Unidos. En ese sentido sí, pienso que deberíamos ser nuestro país, pero somos parte de los Estados Unidos.
JB: Y sería difícil me imagino separarse ahora.
LA: Sí, y como te digo, más que nada con lo económico porque para tú ser un país independiente, obviamente necesitas industria, necesitas economía, y en Puerto Rico casi no hay nada. El turismo es una de las industrias más grandes, la agricultura se destruyó en los años cincuenta, los Estados Unidos industrializó a Puerto Rico en una operación que se llama “Boot Strap,” y básicamente eliminó la agricultura y trató de movilizar a la población a las ciudades para industrializarlo. Antes, Puerto Rico era uno de los productores más grandes de café, de piña--más piña que Hawái--de muchos productos diferentes. Tabaco, azúcar, obviamente que no existen o existen en muy una capacidad muy limitada en la isla hoy. Además de eso, las industrias honestamente no existen. Antes teníamos farmacéuticas, americanas mayormente, pero estaban ahí porque había un “tax loophole.” Cuando cerraron el “tax loophole,” se fueron las compañías y Puerto Rico entró en una crisis económica, hay--. Se necesita un desarrollo económico grande de lo más básico de la isla que no hay ahora, y por eso es que, si los Estados Unidos se va, sería ya bien difícil, habría que trabajar mucho para desarrollar todo eso.
JB: Y aunque Puerto Rico trate de volver a crecer piña, crecer más otras cosas de agricultura, usted cree que, aun así--.
LA: No, nadie quiere trabajar en los campos, es el problema. Ahora, la gente--. ¿Quién quiere honestamente ir a recoger café en una montaña? Es un trabajo fuerte y no es ideal para nadie, y también que obviamente las economías agrícolas están muy limitadas. Tú cuando hablas de países que están bien económicamente no hablas de países agrícolas, son países que tienen algún tipo de producción o de industria, necesita ser algo más avanzado que eso, pero--.
JB: ¿Qué?
LA: Exacto, exacto, ¿qué? [Laughter]
JB: Sí, bueno. A ver, ¿y cómo usted piensa que otros países podrían ayudar? ¿Cómo, fuera de los Estados Unidos, otros países de Centroamérica, Suramérica podrían ayudar a países afectados de huracanes o tormentas?
LA: ¿Ellos mismos que se ayuden?
JB: Sí.
LA: Es buena pregunta. Bueno, lo ideal sería que no tuvieran tantos problemas políticos y que crearán una organización, verdad, que pudiera responder. Como unas Naciones Unidas, como tú dices, que pudiera responder a países cuando tengan problemas. Pero estamos hablando de países que políticamente no están estables; económicamente tampoco. Cuando le añades un desastre natural como el huracán, es un “perfect storm,” ¿verdad? Como dicen, “perfect storm” desafortunadamente. Pero sí, cooperación, colaboración, sería lo ideal porque ¿quién puede responder más rápido que tus vecinos? Pero, no es tan simple.
JB: ¿Y usted conoce si Puerto Rico tiene alguna relación con otros países afuera de los Estados Unidos?
LA: Nosotros mandamos ayuda, sí, yo sé que cuando hay desastres naturales Puerto Rico tiene la autonomía para--. Y diferentes organizaciones ayudan. No sé los nombres de ellas específicamente pero sí. Sé que siempre cuando hay un terremoto hay algún mandado de personaje de Puerto Rico para ayudar en lo que puedan. Por suerte tenemos esa autonomía. No tenemos que pedirle permiso al gobierno federal.
JB: Eso es bueno, es bueno. ¿Y ahí en ese caso los Estados Unidos no se mete para bloquear lo que sale, solo lo que entra?
LA: No, que yo sepa no lo han hecho.
JB: Okay, bueno. Y usted habló sobre una ley de los Estados Unidos, todo lo que llega o quiere ir a Puerto Rico tiene que ir solo a Estados Unidos primero. ¿Cómo ha afectado esto después de los huracanes, después de las tormentas?
LA: Es bien problemático el Jones Act, ósea, porque como mencioné, no le permite a ningún país dar ayuda directa a Puerto Rico, tiene que llegar primero aquí, que toma tiempo cuando no hay tiempo, y obviamente toma recursos. Y eso es algo que el congreso y el senado, los dos han hablado por mucho tiempo, y creo que, si no recuerdo mal, creo que Biden hasta lo mencionó durante su campaña, que lo quería cancelar. Pero hasta el sol de hoy, no han hecho nada. Entonces, eso básicamente lo que significa en Puerto Rico es que todo es mucho más caro. Mucho más caro. Un carro, por ejemplo, te cuesta veinte por ciento más de lo que tú pagarías aquí en los Estados Unidos. Y todos eso son impuestos. Un galón de gasolina, perdón de leche, te cuesta casi siete dólares, que ridículo. Y es caro vivir, pero esas son cosas que se podrían hacer para aliviar esos costos, pero no han querido.
JB: Y si una persona que vive en Puerto Rico, ¿cómo sería la vida de ellos al día a día? Ya que todo es más caro, me imagino que tendrá que recibir más, un salario mejor.
LA: Sí, Puerto Rico tiene un índice de pobreza de casi cincuenta por ciento. Que cuando uno se pone a pensar, eso es wow. Sí, uno tiene que tener mucho cuidado en donde gasta y cómo gasta. Igual te digo, a los puertorriqueños les encanta la fiesta, les encanta andar de--. Pero, se las ingenian, como decimos nosotros, para poder hacerlo porque es que todo es caro. Tú sabes, tú vas al supermercado y tú no haces una compra por cien dólares. La gente sí tiene trabajos, muchos trabajos, yo sé que todos mis tíos por ejemplo tienen dos trabajos diferentes. O, las personas profesionales que han podido estudiar y tienen sus títulos, pues ganan más, pero es difícil. Ósea, eso de tener cuentas de ahorros no es algo normal, o tener una cuenta de retiro, por ejemplo, eso casi no existe porque la gente lo que hace es trabajar para vivir no para el futuro.
JB: Y bastantes de las personas tienen que trabajar para--. ¿O tienen crédito, tal vez?
LA: Sí, bueno, sí porque este es un sistema que obviamente se usa, el problema es tener crédito bueno y mantener el crédito bueno ¿verdad? Porque, por ejemplo, durante un huracán nadie está trabajando, ¿qué haces tú con los pagareses? Por dos, tres meses. Se complica la cosa mucho.
JB: Sí. Y usted mencionó que algunas personas tienen hasta dos, tres trabajos. ¿Esto es normal para las personas?
LA: Sí, completamente.
JB: ¿Solo para los profesionales no?
LA: No tanto para los profesionales porque normalmente estoy pensando en mis tíos, por ejemplo, mi tía que trabaja en un banco. Ella, su trabajo es normal, cuarenta horas a la semana, honestamente, pero tengo otros tíos que trabajan more en la “gig economy,” en la economía informal. Uno trabaja para Uber, tú sabes, y también tiene un Airbnb y cosas así, siempre tratan de buscárselas para poder tener su dinerito.
JB: Pero me imagino que la educación es bien cara, para poder--.
LA: Curiosamente, no. [Laughter].
JB: ¿No?
LA: Sí. Esa es una de las ironías de la de la vida. Ironías no tanto, pero curiosidades. En Puerto Rico la educación es como aquí en los Estados Unidos. La educación elemental, secundaria, es pagada por el estado. El nivel de educación es otra historia. Pero todo el mundo estudia hasta High School. La universidad es “subsidized” por el gobierno de Puerto Rico. Los estudiantes pagan bien poco por crédito. La última vez que vi, eran como cien o doscientos dólares por cada crédito. Que cuando tú lo comparas con lo que ustedes pagan aquí [Laughter] en UNC, o en cualquier universidad en los Estados Unidos. Pero, de nuevo, tenemos problemas en las universidades de Puerto Rico porque es difícil para la universidad retener a profesores. Aunque tenemos una de las mejores escuelas de ingeniería, de doctores, de lo que quieras. Y también, que las universidades son el lugar donde normalmente los jóvenes se movilizan rápido. Si hay problemas políticos, los estudiantes son los primeros que van a protestar y normalmente cierran la universidad. Hubo un año que una de mis primas, creo que le cerraron la universidad cuatro veces en un año por diferentes protestas políticas. Para muchas personas, honestamente, la estabilidad y el nivel de educación es mejor aquí en los Estados Unidos, aunque es más barato en Puerto Rico.
JB: Y usted dice que los profesores a veces van y vienen. Eso es una cosa que ellos salen de Puerto Rico, o es que el trabajo no--.
LA: Ambas, yo he tenido amigos--. Un poquito de todo. Es difícil. Ósea, uno de mis colegas, curiosamente de aquí, él era un estudiante graduado que recibió su Ph.D de aquí de UNC, regreso a Puerto Rico y duró un año. Se le iba la electricidad, no podía corregir; y después la atmósfera en la universidad también no le gustó mucho, y bla bla bla, es que es difícil. Ósea, comparado con los Estados Unidos es difícil. Pero igual te digo, tengo muchas compañeras profesionales que han obtenido sus títulos aquí, que han regresado; abogados, una cirujana plástica, que han regresado a Puerto Rico. Depende mucho de la persona y de la situación también, sí. Pero te diría que esas personas que tienen esos trabajos que pagan mucho más, obviamente no tienen la preocupación económica. Los problemas sociales siempre están, pero por lo menos no tienen que preocuparse por eso. Se les hace un poco más fácil quedarse en la isla que para personas que no tienen.
JB: Y usted diría que todas las personas en Puerto Rico tienen acceso a la educación, ¿o existen los mismos problemas que vemos hoy en día?
LA: Es muy similar que aquí en los Estados Unidos. Honestamente, todo el mundo va a la escuela; es que tanto aprendes en la escuela que es el problema. Porque, por ejemplo, el inglés. Todo el mundo en Puerto Rico toma inglés, todos los años que está en la escuela. Eso no es opcional. Pero cuando se gradúan ¿qué porcentaje habla inglés? Bien poquito. Eso también es una reflexión del sistema de educación y de la retención. Otro problema gigantesco que no he mencionado es que a los maestros no les pagan nada. Mi madre fue maestra pública, de inglés curiosamente, por veinticuatro años. Y su salario máximo cuando se retiró fueron diecisiete mil dólares al año. ¿Qué incentivo tiene un maestro en Puerto Rico, donde la vida es tan cara y las cosas son tan difíciles, de ser maestro?
JB: Entonces, mayorías se quedan porque les gusta, no es--.
LA: O por la familia. Por la familia, honestamente. Yo tengo primos y varios tíos que tú no los sacas de Puerto Rico jamás. Porque están tan--. Esa es su vida.
JB: Y toda la familia de ellos que están ahí todavía o mayoría se han venido.
LA: Curiosamente, el tío que estoy pensando sí, la hija está estudiando en Nueva York ahora, veremos si regresa. Pero sí, toda esa familia de mi papá se ha quedado en Puerto Rico.
JB: Y usted dijo que usted tiene una propiedad allá en Puerto Rico, ¿cómo ha sido eso? Teniendo esa propiedad hasta allá.
LA: Bueno, tenemos suerte porque está en el mismo complejo donde vive mi tía, la hermana de mi papá. Ella nos ayuda mucho a cuidarla, y por ejemplo durante el huracán María--porque la propiedad está en un tercer piso, es un condo en el piso máximo--ella se fue a nuestra condo durante el huracán, porque ella vivía en el en el primer piso y por las inundaciones y bla bla. Sí, es, es, es problemático en el sentido de que todo es caro, I mean. Aun no viviendo ahí la electricidad es cara. [Laughter] You know, es el mantenimiento y también la preocupación de si cuando vienen tormentas necesitamos ocupar una persona que vaya a poner las tormenteras, a guardar agua, lo que sea. Para nosotros honestamente ha sido bien esencial como familia porque nosotros siempre hemos querido preservar nuestras raíces y nuestra cultura, y todo lo que sea con la familia. Y el tener nuestro propio espacio donde podemos ir cuando queramos sin molestar a nadie es--. Vale la pena.
JB: ¿Y usted planea moverse allá algún día, o?
LA: Curiosamente, sí y no. Mi esposo y yo hemos discutido esto mucho. Yo quiero--en un futuro ideal--yo quiero trabajar o crear un NGO de algún tipo que ayude--. Tengo varias ideas, pero uno es a la juventud con entrenamiento profesional. o tengo como te digo varias ideas, pero quiero hacer algo que ayude a la isla en un sentido ecológico también a veces pienso, pero no sé. Vivir ahí permanentemente no, de nuevo porque es difícil. Me encanta visitar y me encanta estar un mes, dos meses, pero se complica mucho. Y también que uno se malacostumbra. Aquí todo es tan fácil, honestamente. Y se me haría difícil un poquito ya que llevo tanto tiempo acá. Pero lo podría hacer, pero creo que también con los años, uno busca la comodidad. Sí, quiero pasar meses allá todos los años, pero no vivir permanentemente.
JB: ¿Me imagino que también la adaptación sería más difícil de dejar todo aquí?
LA: Exacto, y tengo mi casa y todas mis cosas acá, y sí mis papás también están acá.
JB: ¿Y sus papás no planean tampoco ir jamás?
LA: Oh no. Bueno, mi papá sí, si fuera por mi papá: en Puerto Rico feliz y contento. Mi mamá no tanto. Sí, mi mamá ya, bueno, va a cumplir ochenta años. También ella se ha acostumbrado mucho al estilo tranquilo, sin problemas aquí en los Estados Unidos.
JB: ¿Sí, y su propiedad está en el área turística o en?
LA: Está en lo que se considera el área Metro. Si tú llegas a San Juan ¿verdad? El pueblo inmediatamente al este es Carolina y el próximo pueblo se llama Canóvanas, ahí. Estamos literalmente a quince minutos del aeropuerto, del área metro. Al viejo San Juan son como 25 minutos, media hora. Bien centralizados.
JB: ¿Y entonces cuando usted regresa usted ve bastante a los turistas que están allí o?
LA: Sí, sí, no hay manera de evitarlo. [Laughter]
JB: Sí, bueno, está bien. ¿Y Esa propiedad la tiene rentada o es suya nada más?
LA: Es de nosotros.
JB: Oh okay, le preguntaba por si tal vez la tenía rentada y tal vez tenía “income” pero--¬.
LA: No, no, mi papá lo pensó, pero honestamente no quieren lidiar con todas las complicaciones.
JB: Sí, sí y los arreglos me imagino también son más caros.
LA: Sí, exacto.
JB: Bueno entonces para continuar, a ver, bueno su propiedad está bien cerca de los turistas. Cuando usted va a visitar, ¿usted le gusta hablar con los turistas que van o solo le gusta estar en su área?
LA: [Laughter] Bueno, sabes que me gusta visitar lugares que no son tan turísticos porque es que honestamente me gusta más la comida más auténtica. Pero siempre vamos, por ejemplo, a mi esposo y a mí nos encanta el Viejo San Juan, y el Viejo Samuel es siempre está lleno de turistas, so. A mí no me molesta honestamente porque sé que es una parte tan importante de la economía y ellos no causan muchos problemas, pero también yo no salgo por la noche. Yo no voy a los clubs y ahí es donde en un momento hay, pero yo no tengo mucho que ver con eso.
JB: Y usted dijo que Puerto Rico es--la parte de turística es bastante porcentaje de su economía. ¿Cómo diría que afectaría si no hay más turismo en Puerto Rico?
LA: Seria devastador, honestamente, porque especialmente en el área metro es honestamente la industria más grande. Y es otro problema que--cuando vienen los huracanes--también que toma tiempo recuperar y reconstruir las habitaciones de hotel, y hemos visto en los últimos años que muchos hoteles cerraron y nunca abrieron. Número uno porque las pérdidas fueron tan grandes que no valía la pena gastar el dinero para reabrir. Y número dos que no saben si va a haber un huracán el año que viene, o en un mes. Sería devastador honestamente, pero sí, los turistas--. A mí la pena que siempre me da con los turistas es que llegan al área metro y no salen del área metro, y para mí eso es como que una representación tan específica de Puerto Rico que me encantaría verlos explorar las otras partes de la isla un poco.
JB: ¿Como cuáles áreas si puedo preguntar?
LA: Sí, no, está bien, por ejemplo, mucha gente va a San Juan y va al Yunque, que es el bosque tropical que está como a media hora, 45 minutos con el tráfico. Por ejemplo, en el sur tenemos Ponce que es la segunda ciudad más grande. La perla del sur cómo le llaman muy, histórica, muy bonita para visitar. También si tú vas al lado oeste, al norte o sur, playas, “surfing”--es precioso, I mean, todo Puerto Rico. Esos son partes que no se exploran tanto porque toma un segundo llegar, pero que, honestamente podrían ser atracciones turísticas también como como el Viejo San Juan.
JB: Sí y usted mencionó que usted tiene un tío que trabaja por Uber, no se--.
LA: Sí.
JB: Sí. ¿Cómo ha sido el perspectivo de él trabajando allá?
LA: Sí, pues, [Laughter] eso es una historia interesante también porque uno de los problemas grandes con los carros en Puerto Rico es que las carreteras son terribles. Un carro normal aquí en los Estados Unidos te dura, ¿qué, 10 años? En Puerto Rico no porque entre los hoyos, y las gomas se te explotan, o los accidentes, es terrible. Para él ha sido interesante porque tú ser un conductor de Uber significa que tu carro te va a durar mucho menos. Y cuando tú eres miembro--ósea, “the head of the household”--son consideraciones que él ha tenido que hacer. Pero además de eso, no, lo encuentra bien porque él vive bien cerca del aeropuerto, para él es una ventaja porque puede, literalmente--. Sale en el aeropuerto 10 minutos, y cómo hay tanto turista, y los turistas americanos están tan acostumbrados a usar Uber, que se le ha hecho relativamente fácil, honestamente, eso. Y ha sido un buen una buena inyección de efectivo para él.
JB: Lo que él ha--. Porque usted dice que los carros casi no duran nada, entonces lo que él invierte en su carro, él ve que siempre puede recibir de los “tips,” y--.
LA: Sí, definitivo porque también este con Uber tú sabes que dependiendo del tipo de carro que tú tienes y que tan viejo es, te dan una clasificación diferente. Like, hay Uber X y hay Uber bla bla bla, si tienes un carro un poquito más nuevo, puedes pedir más dinero por los viajes, él ha tenido mucha suerte con eso.
JB: Eso es bueno, sí.
LA: Sí.
JB: Y, a ver--. Y la experiencia, ¿él tiene hijos o?
LA: Sí, tiene dos niñas.
JB: ¿Y están en la escuela aun?
LA: Sí, una es la que está en la universidad y la otra ya se graduó, está en Puerto Rico.
JB: Sí, ¿y ellas piensan regresar a Puerto Rico y quedarse ahí, o una de ellas está estudiando?
LA: Una está estudiando y honestamente a mí no me sorprendería para nada que se quede acá en los Estados Unidos, porque ella siempre le ha encantado todo eso. Pero la otra no, la otra se queda en Puerto Rico tranquila.
JB: Y para la vida de un niño que vive allá, ¿de qué consiste? ¿Cómo estar llenos de la cultura, me imagino, y bastante familia?
LA: Sí, las familias son grandes. Yo siempre le digo a mis estudiantes que pasar tiempo con la familia en Puerto Rico no es opcional porque en un fin de semana, por ejemplo, mi tía llega--no llama ni nada, ella llega--y de momento llegaron mis tíos y llegaron los primos, y hay una fiesta, y nadie anunció. Y “ay, ¿que tienes en la nevera?” [Laughter] Y la pasamos bien, y también que, como uno está en tan constante comunicación con todo el mundo, los vemos durante la semana y “ay, ¿vas al supermercado? ¿Me puedes traer algo?” En ese sentido hay cómo, ¿qué sé yo? Un poquito más de un “cushion,” creo yo, que a veces que aquí en los Estados Unidos. Porque tú te crías con tus primos y con tus tíos. No es que los ves una vez, no. Te crías con ellos, like hablas con ellos regularmente, te van a visitar, van a comer. Ósea que ese tipo de interacción es algo tan normal que sí, es algo interesante en algunos sentidos, pero bien bonito.
JB: Y toda su familia vive alrededor de--.
LA: Cerca, sí, bien cerca, sí.
JB: Y cuando paso el huracán María y también el huracán Irma ¿cómo fue afectada esa relación ya que, como me imagino que tal vez no podían verse tanto?
LA: Pues sí, bueno yo estuve año y medio, dos años sin ir a Puerto Rico. Algo así. Que para mí fue mucho, sí. Nosotros--. Inicialmente no se visita la isla porque nosotros siempre decimos “yo no quiero serle un ‘burden’ para cuando hay problemas,” y por eso no. Pero sí, honestamente tomó un poquito de tiempo restablecer los viajes y eso, porque las cosas no estaban muy seguras por mucho tiempo. Pero no, ahora ellos nos visitan, nosotros los visitamos cuando podemos. Ahora mismo la hermana de mi papá, mi tía, está en casa de mis papás aquí en la Florida [Laughter]. Sí, siempre cuando podemos.
JB: ¿Y para los que vivían en la isla, fue también difícil también para ellos?
LA: Sí, salir--.
JB: ¿Era más fácil caminar o estaban muy lejos?
LA: No, está muy lejos para caminar. Bueno sí, estoy pensando. Sí, porque viven--. Te diría que, abrir las calles como quien dice, toma varios días porque si hay árboles, y de esto yo sé que sí. A mis tíos por lo menos les tomó varios días comunicarse entre ellos y poder salir de los vecindarios para ver cómo estaba todo el mundo. Pero eso es normal, desafortunadamente, y más que nada por los árboles porque nadie tiene “chainsaws,” ¿verdad? Muy pocas personas. ¿Si se cae un árbol, que haces? Porque no puedes sacar el carro. Pero viven literalmente a 10 minutos de cada uno.
JB: ¿Si el gobierno de Puerto Rico fuera a decir que cada casa debe tener “old land line,” como dicen, la manera vieja del teléfono, cree que la comunicación sería mejor con usted durante la tormenta o después de la tormenta?
LA: Me encantaría decir que sí, pero tan pocas personas usan los “landlines” ahora, todo el mundo usa celulares que--. Pero sí, honestamente sería lo ideal. Por ejemplo, la isla de la familia de mi mamá que se llama Vieques es literalmente un cable que corre debajo del mar que trae la electricidad y trae todo a la isla. Y eso es uno de los problemas donde María, ese cable ha sufrió daños, tuvieron que--. Por eso fue que tomó un año restablecer la electricidad. Uno a veces piensa “ay, si está debajo de la tierra da protección.” Sí, no, depende de lo que es y cómo--.
JB: ¿Así que no cree que facilitaría el proceso?
LA: Honestamente no.
JB: ¿Y también me imagino que sería caro también mantenerlo, pagar bill?
LA: Sí, o con las lluvias también a veces tener ese tipo de--. Por ejemplo, la electricidad debajo, es complicado. Yo creo que por eso es que no es algo que es standard en Puerto Rico, que llueve mucho. Y muchas partes del área metro se inundan rápida y fácilmente, so imagínate la electricidad con agua. [Laughter]
JB: Sí, sí, sí. Okay, ahora sí. Bueno, muchas gracias por su entrevista.
LA: Con gusto, querida.
JB: Bueno, le voy a enviar toda la información después.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Transcription by Johana Bautista-Ayala
31 March 2023
Edited by Daniel Velasquez, January 2024
Es: Transcripción
[00:00:03] Johana Bautista: Mi nombre es Johana Bautista, soy una estudiante de aquí de la Universidad del North Carolina en Chapel Hill. Hoy tengo el placer de entrevistar a alguien muy importante y quiero dejar que ella se introduzca en este momento.
[00:00:15] Loranida Avilés de León: Hola, mi nombre es Lornaida Avilés de León y soy profesora de español y cultura aquí en la universidad de Chapel Hill.
JB: Me puede decir un poquito más sobre su historia de migración, ¿cómo su familia llegó a este país?
LA: Sí, bueno como muchos puertorriqueños en mi familia siempre he tenido conexiones fuertes a los Estados Unidos por toda la historia de Puerto Rico. La historia de la familia de mi mama, en particular, es interesante porque mi mama es de una isla pequeña que está en el este de Puerto Rico, que se llama Vieques. Y Vieques en los años cuarenta fue, básicamente, no sé cuál es la palabra correcta, pero fue controlado por el Navy de los Estados Unidos. Y por esa relación mi mamá--la familia de mi mamá, perdón--tienen muchos Americanos que se han casado con, particularmente con las mujeres de la familia. Mi mama desde niña estuvo muy expuesta al inglés; aprendió inglés, se lo enseñó ella sola. Y al tener dos hermanas que se mudaron a los Estados Unidos jóvenes, casadas con Navy marinos, ella viajaba mucho a los Estados Unidos y siempre estaba metida en esa cultura--como quien dice, también. Mi papa es la típica historia inmigrante en el sentido de que sus padres--bueno, perdón, su mamá, mi abuela--se mudó en un momento a Nueva York a trabajar, como tantos puertorriqueños. Y mi papá nace en Puerto Rico, pero vive en Nueva York sus primeros 5, 6 años en el Bronx. Y sus papás trabajaban--básicamente mi abuelo y mi padrastro trabajan todo el día y papi básicamente se crio solo, y por eso hoy tenemos esa relación tan fuerte. Él aprende inglés al igual que aprende español, mi mamá también, y se conocen en Puerto Rico. Y cuando yo tenía ya 11, 12 años, la situación económica para mi familia se puso bien difícil, y mi papa va a trabajar a Colombia. Porque mi papá trabaja en los casinos, él es el gerente de casinos. Y lo contratan para abrir casinos en Bogotá y Cali. Y él se muda allí, entonces mis padres toman la decisión de mudarnos a nosotros--a mami, a mi hermana y a mí--a la Florida donde teníamos familia. Una de mis tías que se casó con un americano. Porque honestamente el costo de vida era más barato, y también al nosotras estar solas, papi se sentía más cómodo que estuviéramos cerca de la familia ahí. Así es como llegamos, historia larga pero así es como llegamos [Laughter] a los Estados Unidos.
JB: ¿Y su papá siguió viviendo en Colombia?
LA: Sí, él estuvo allí un año completo mientras nosotras estuvimos en la Florida y después él deja ese trabajo, porque la cosa--fue en los años 90s, Colombia estaba bien peligroso--y él consigue un trabajo en Missouri, St. Louis, Missouri, cuando se abrieron los casinos, los “riverboats,” y así es que terminamos en Missouri.
JB: ¿Y él siguió trabajando con los casinos?
LA: Sí, hasta este año, se acabó de jubilarse en diciembre del 2022.
JB: Oh wow, muchas gracias por darnos ese “recap” de su historia de migración. Ahora, quiero preguntarle sobre lo que usted piensa en la migración que ha sido causada a causa de factores “environmental,” y si usted o tal vez algún familiar ha sido afectado.
LA: Bueno sí, definitivamente ha afectado a la familia, María en particular, porque obviamente fue tan extremo y tan reciente. Pero, la manera en que yo se lo describo a la gente es que vivir en Puerto Rico es difícil. Ya es difícil por razones económicas y por el crimen, entonces cuando le añades el componente de los huracanes, a veces se hace imposible. I mean, yo tuve un tío en la isla, un hermano de mi mama en el Vieques, que estuvo sin electricidad un año… un hombre de 89 años, y él tuvo que ir a Texas, el migró por un tiempo. Estuvo allá 6 meses con unos de sus hijos, pero honestamente los huracanes--. Y también algo interesante, perdón, una pausa--. No es el huracán, es lo que pasa después del huracán. Porque obviamente la tormenta es fuerte y hay destrucción; pero es el colapso de la infraestructura, el no poder encontrar comida, la gente no podía ni sacar dinero de las ATH, nadie tenía efectivo, no había nada. Y eso a largo plazo, cuando hablas de las familias que tienen niños en la escuela, es algo que son cosas que hay que considerar cuando uno quiere quedarse en la isla, porque es difícil. Te puedo contar de mi familia, yo tengo varias primas que estaban en la escuela intermedia durante María, y mis tíos lo que hicieron fueron sacarlas y mandarlas a la Florida por ese semestre para que no perdieran el semestre. Porque si no, no iban a poder tomar clases, es algo que siempre está allí, que siempre hay de considerar. Y aun cuando no es temporada de huracanes, como ahora por ejemplo que no ha comenzado, pero la electricidad se va casi diario. Y eso es algo que es un resultado de, obviamente, de problemas económicos, pero también afectan, han sido afectados por los huracanes, eso es algo que siempre está presente como quien dice.
JB: ¿Y cuando la electricidad se va me imagino que no hay manera de pagar si no tienen cash?
LA: Bueno, sí, afectan los negocios. Honestamente, la preocupación grande en las casas es que [Laughter] la electricidad cuando se va y regresa, cambia el voltaje. Entonces eventualmente te daña todos los sensores electrónicos, como la nevera, con toda la compra y la comida, se te va, la televisión. Y también, en Puerto Rico hace mucho calor. Si se te va la electricidad, y esto es, you know, “first-world problems,” pero se te va la electricidad y para personas que tienen problemas de salud, es difícil si está 80 y algo de grados no tener por lo menos un abanico. Sí, y los negocios obviamente si va la luz hay que cerrar la tienda y esperar, si no tienen una planta.
JB: ¿Así que cuando viene un huracán las personas ya se esperan, digamos, que van a pedir la electricidad?
LA: O definitivamente sí, eso es asumido.
JB: Van a perder acceso a todo eso.
LA: Y el acceso al agua también, ese es otro problema porque las plantas de agua son eléctricas mayormente, entonces si se va la electricidad se te va el agua en seguida, entonces hay que hacer muchas preparaciones para todo esto.
JB: Entonces me imagino que hay un “shortage” de agua cuando ya va a venir un huracán, porque la gente comienza a comprar.
LA: No, el pánico--. Sí, porque todo el mundo--bueno, aunque la gente siempre trata de prepararse lo más posible--pero sí, el pánico es inmediato y en las tiendas no se pueden encontrar nada, nada, nada. Lo que nosotros llamamos porterías, lo que es cualquier tipo de comida en lata, se va enseguida, agua, todas las cosas que no se dañan si no hay electricidad.
JB: Y usted tocó un punto muy interesante de que no es mucho el huracán si no los efectos después, ¿cómo cree usted que el gobierno de Puerto Rico podría mejorar esta situación para puertorriqueños?
LA: [Laughter] Honestamente, en Puerto Rico es super complicado porque no es solamente un problema económico, es un problema político también. Puerto Rico tiene lo que se llama el Jones Act, que es algo que se firmó en el 2017 que básicamente limita las cosas que pueden llegar directamente a la isla. Todo tiene que venir a los Estados Unidos primero y después puede ir a Puerto Rico. Eso significa que todo es más caro y que si un país le quiere dar ayuda inmediato a Puerto Rico durante una crisis, tiene que pedir permiso primero del gobierno de los Estados Unidos. Y si el gobierno de los Estados Unidos quiere--. Que, por ejemplo, durante María, Trump se rehusó por completo a pausar El Jones Act. Lo ideal obviamente sería tener una infraestructura más estable. Durante María, por ejemplo, también se perdió todas las redes eléctricas, todas, todos los postes. Y en vez de reconstruirlas de una manera que sea más sostenible, más verde, más lo que sea, hay una ley que solo le permite al gobierno mejorar lo que existe, no puede reemplazarlo por completo. Son cosas así que limitan mucho las respuestas del gobierno, además de la corrupción y los otros problemas que hay. Porque los huracanes van a continuar. Esa es la realidad. Pero sí, se podrían tener sistemas, especialmente de ayuda externa, que ayudarían mucho más rápido a la población.
JB: Okay. Y usted habló de que la ley que existe, ¿verdad? ¿Esa ley es del gobierno de los Estados Unidos o es de Puerto Rico?
LA: No, es una ley federal.
JB: Ah, okay, okay. Wow. Okay y bueno, ya hemos hablado bastante de los efectos que han ocurrido, ya me imagino. ¿Ósea, ahorita en este momento tiene familiares que están en Puerto?
LA: Sí. Básicamente la mitad de mi familia todavía está allá. Sí. Y nosotros tenemos casa también. Ósea, yo visito tres veces al año. Sí.
JB: Y ellos también son afectados, me imagino, porque no hay excepciones, ¿verdad?
LA: Ajá.
JB: Sí. Bueno. ¿Y cómo es el proceso de cuando ellos saben que viene el huracán? ¿Cuál es? Porque usted me acaba de decir que su tío a veces ha--. Bueno, en ese instante mandó a sus hijas a estudiar a Florida, pero cuál es el proceso de decir okay, este huracán va a ser muy muy malo, tenemos que enviar la gente afuera, ¿cuál es la manera de que ellos toman ese estadístico o esa decisión?
LA: Es una buena pregunta, te voy a decir algo honestamente, eso no es algo que pasa normalmente. Porque, qué se yo, no sé si es que la gente está acostumbrada o que saben cómo lidiar. Nosotros como familia nos preocupamos obviamente más por las personas bien mayores, como mi tío, porque es que--. Imagínate ellos por su edad y por muchas circunstancias no pueden lidiar con los problemas. Y aún con el ejemplo que te doy de mi tío, nosotros lo vacamos después, porque nosotros teníamos una idea de que María era fuerte, pero no lo que pasó. Y otro problema con María también fue que María--. Normalmente los huracanes en Puerto Rico entran en el área norte, y nosotros tenemos una cordillera central que es unas montañas, que básicamente crean un “rain shadow effect,” y en el sur no llueve y es más seco, y normalmente está protegido de los huracanes. María entró por el sur, ósea que cortó la isla literalmente por el medio y el problema con eso es que, en un huracán regular, tú puedes ir al sur a buscar hielo, a buscar comida, a buscar lo que sea, agua. Aquí fue toda la isla. Y nosotros, honestamente, nadie--. No te puede decir que mucha gente honestamente sabía lo que venía de una manera realista. Pero cuando vienen huracanes, y las preparaciones son bastante rutinas, inmediato es ir al supermercado para encontrar lo que puedas encontrar. También nosotros hacemos cosas como que llenamos las bañeras de agua para tener agua para lavar y también para usar los baños, el inodoro, llenamos todos los cubos que tengamos. Entonces después, cuando ya tienes eso establecido, llenar el carro de gasolina también. La mayoría de las casas tienen tormenteras, que son, este, un sistema que vienen de metal que se ponen en las ventanas. Se cierra la casa lo más que se puede, si se puede, o se pone madera. Y a esperar, a tener baterías para tener una radio, y básicamente esperar que pase la tormenta.
JB: ¿Y cómo se comunican de afuera, o de o de adentro para afuera?
LA: Pues ese es un problema de siempre. Obviamente, si hay líneas de teléfono, los que tengan todavía líneas “old school” de teléfono, pues eso funciona. Pero, por ejemplo, durante María yo no tuve información de mi familia por dos semanas. Nada. Porque obviamente, si no hay electricidad, no hay internet, y si no hay internet y las torres de teléfono celular no funcionaban, eso--la comunicación siempre es algo que es difícil. Pero también te digo que ahí es donde la comunidad se ayuda mucho, porque tan pronto alguien se puede comunicar ayuda a todas las otras personas a comunicarse. Indirectamente nos enteramos de que esta persona está bien porque el vecino, o la prima, o quien sea, nos hace llegar la información de alguna manera.
JB: Entonces me imagino que son bien unidos todos ahí.
LA: Sí, es que no hay otra opción honestamente, porque en lo que llega la ayuda del gobierno, los vecinos son honestamente tu primer recurso.
JB: Y cómo vamos a decir que yo soy una persona que vive en los Estados Unidos, ¿cómo yo puedo ayudar personas que están en Puerto Rico que tal vez hayan pasado durante un huracán?
LA: Bueno inicialmente es un poquito difícil, inicialmente yo recomiendo que usen a las organizaciones, pero organizaciones con reputación, no cualquier persona que dice yo voy a ayudar. El Red Cross es un poquito controversial, según otras personas, pero tienen los recursos para llegar. Además de eso, hay muchas organizaciones en Puerto Rico, NGOs, este, sin fines de lucro que ayudan a las poblaciones, o ellos normalmente usan las redes para pedir ayuda, etcétera. Y también, si conocen a una persona, a veces enviarle--yo tuve que hacer esto mucho más a mi familia--enviarle una caja de Amazon con baterías, con luces, este, solares, cosas así que son básicas, pero que en una tormenta son esenciales, honestamente, cuando no tienes electricidad por mucho tiempo.
JB: ¿Y cuándo mandan así cosas como por Amazon, me imagino que cuesta llegar más que lo normal?
LA: Curiosamente no cuesta mucho más. Toma mucho más tiempo, sí. Que aquí estamos acostumbrados a que nos lleguen cinco días, allá puede ser que sea una o dos semanas llega. Porque como te digo, después de María yo pude enviar varias cajas a familiares.
JB: Yo no sabía que se podía enviar cajas de acá.
LA: Sí, la tecnología.
JB: Sí. Bueno, quiero regresar al tema de cómo los efectos en el “environment” pueden afectar la migración. Y yo sé que usted a veces enseña en sus clases sobre migración y también sobre las leyes. Pero me pregunto, más de los otros países que también han sido afectados por diferentes tormentas o diferentes situaciones, como el Huracán Mitch que pasó, que también causó bastante
LA: En América Central
JB: Sí, en América Central. Cosas de migración. Entonces a ver si usted puede dar unos puntos sobre qué es lo que piensa de lo que ha estado pasando en los últimos años, y cómo el futuro se ve con esas, con esa situación tal vez.
LA: Sí, honestamente el futuro no es muy alentador porque desafortunadamente lo que estamos viendo es un aumento de la frecuencia y la intensidad de las tormentas, y no solo las tormentas, los terremotos y muchos otros tipos de desastres naturales. Y desafortunadamente lo que pasa en muchas partes de Latinoamérica es que afecta a las poblaciones que tienen los recursos, o no, perdón, no tienen los recursos para lidiar con ningún tipo de extra “anything.” Eso siempre es lo triste, son víctimas que ya son víctimas, como quien dice, de otras circunstancias. Y la pregunta es ¿qué se puede hacer? Porque a veces también, por ejemplo, cuando tú tienes un huracán como Mitch, que básicamente corto América Central es--. Tienes a tres o cuatro países afectados, estás hablando de miles de personas, ¿qué se hace? Y ahí es cuando--bueno, esto es un poquito más político, pero es crear sistemas, ¿verdad? Para apoyar a estas personas en esas situaciones. Pero se complica mucho porque cuando hablas de la infraestructura, estás hablando de áreas que no están acostumbradas a huracanes, que son casas de madera, o si son casas de cemento no son casas construidas correctamente de cemento, y cuando tú le añades una tormenta que dura veinticuatro horas se complica mucho la cosa. Es triste honestamente ver que, con la frecuencia de que tanto está pasando, y la migración, y yo no los culpo porque yo he pasado por huracanes en Puerto Rico y sé lo difícil que es quedarse. No me imagino si yo tuviera menos recursos en un país, ¿qué haces? ¿Dónde comienzas? ¿Con qué reconstruyes si no tienes trabajo, si no tienes los recursos? Desafortunadamente sí, el futuro no es muy alentador. [Laughter].
JB: Sí. Y ahora de su experiencia o su opinión, lo que ha visto, ¿la migración es más fácil antes de una tormenta o después de una tormenta?
LA: Yo di--. Bueno, es que depende, pero yo obviamente--. Antes sí, porque después se complica mucho la cosa. Y eso asumiendo que los aeropuertos están funcionando y que hay medios de transportación, porque obviamente el huracán afecta todo, no es selectivo en cuanto a solo afecta casos, solo afecta edificios, ¿no? Es todo y en particular, las carreteras, por ejemplo, se hace bien difícil salir de un vecindario y más allá salir de un área. Lo ideal honestamente es salir antes, pero también, eso requiere muchos recursos, mucho dinero. Y a veces tiempo, que si tú tienes a miles de personas que están tratando de salir del país, es difícil encontrar un vuelo. Y los precios, bueno, yo recuerdo que los precios antes de María subieron a miles y miles de dólares porque todo el mundo quería irse, o las personas que podían, querían irse, so…
JB: Wow, bueno, muchas gracias por compartir todo eso y ahora quiero preguntarle algo que tal vez sea un poquito más político [Laughter], ¿pero usted cree que Puerto Rico es parte de los Estados Unidos?
LA: Sí, sí, I mean, somos un territorio. No es opcional. [Laughter]
JB: Porque hay muchas personas que dicen que sí, aunque los Estados Unidos obtuvo esta isla, a veces muchas personas piensan que no, Puerto Rico separado, no les gusta decir que-.
LA: Bueno, te clarifico la respuesta con decirte que nosotros somos un territorio y en mi opinión, a mí me encantaría ver a la isla como un país independiente. Pero Puerto Rico no está en una situación económica, ni en una situación en cuanto a la infraestructura económica, para ser un país independiente porque hemos sido una colonia básicamente por mucho tiempo. Y las consecuencias de eso son que somos bien dependientes de los Estados Unidos. En ese sentido sí, pienso que deberíamos ser nuestro país, pero somos parte de los Estados Unidos.
JB: Y sería difícil me imagino separarse ahora.
LA: Sí, y como te digo, más que nada con lo económico porque para tú ser un país independiente, obviamente necesitas industria, necesitas economía, y en Puerto Rico casi no hay nada. El turismo es una de las industrias más grandes, la agricultura se destruyó en los años cincuenta, los Estados Unidos industrializó a Puerto Rico en una operación que se llama “Boot Strap,” y básicamente eliminó la agricultura y trató de movilizar a la población a las ciudades para industrializarlo. Antes, Puerto Rico era uno de los productores más grandes de café, de piña--más piña que Hawái--de muchos productos diferentes. Tabaco, azúcar, obviamente que no existen o existen en muy una capacidad muy limitada en la isla hoy. Además de eso, las industrias honestamente no existen. Antes teníamos farmacéuticas, americanas mayormente, pero estaban ahí porque había un “tax loophole.” Cuando cerraron el “tax loophole,” se fueron las compañías y Puerto Rico entró en una crisis económica, hay--. Se necesita un desarrollo económico grande de lo más básico de la isla que no hay ahora, y por eso es que, si los Estados Unidos se va, sería ya bien difícil, habría que trabajar mucho para desarrollar todo eso.
JB: Y aunque Puerto Rico trate de volver a crecer piña, crecer más otras cosas de agricultura, usted cree que, aun así--.
LA: No, nadie quiere trabajar en los campos, es el problema. Ahora, la gente--. ¿Quién quiere honestamente ir a recoger café en una montaña? Es un trabajo fuerte y no es ideal para nadie, y también que obviamente las economías agrícolas están muy limitadas. Tú cuando hablas de países que están bien económicamente no hablas de países agrícolas, son países que tienen algún tipo de producción o de industria, necesita ser algo más avanzado que eso, pero--.
JB: ¿Qué?
LA: Exacto, exacto, ¿qué? [Laughter]
JB: Sí, bueno. A ver, ¿y cómo usted piensa que otros países podrían ayudar? ¿Cómo, fuera de los Estados Unidos, otros países de Centroamérica, Suramérica podrían ayudar a países afectados de huracanes o tormentas?
LA: ¿Ellos mismos que se ayuden?
JB: Sí.
LA: Es buena pregunta. Bueno, lo ideal sería que no tuvieran tantos problemas políticos y que crearán una organización, verdad, que pudiera responder. Como unas Naciones Unidas, como tú dices, que pudiera responder a países cuando tengan problemas. Pero estamos hablando de países que políticamente no están estables; económicamente tampoco. Cuando le añades un desastre natural como el huracán, es un “perfect storm,” ¿verdad? Como dicen, “perfect storm” desafortunadamente. Pero sí, cooperación, colaboración, sería lo ideal porque ¿quién puede responder más rápido que tus vecinos? Pero, no es tan simple.
JB: ¿Y usted conoce si Puerto Rico tiene alguna relación con otros países afuera de los Estados Unidos?
LA: Nosotros mandamos ayuda, sí, yo sé que cuando hay desastres naturales Puerto Rico tiene la autonomía para--. Y diferentes organizaciones ayudan. No sé los nombres de ellas específicamente pero sí. Sé que siempre cuando hay un terremoto hay algún mandado de personaje de Puerto Rico para ayudar en lo que puedan. Por suerte tenemos esa autonomía. No tenemos que pedirle permiso al gobierno federal.
JB: Eso es bueno, es bueno. ¿Y ahí en ese caso los Estados Unidos no se mete para bloquear lo que sale, solo lo que entra?
LA: No, que yo sepa no lo han hecho.
JB: Okay, bueno. Y usted habló sobre una ley de los Estados Unidos, todo lo que llega o quiere ir a Puerto Rico tiene que ir solo a Estados Unidos primero. ¿Cómo ha afectado esto después de los huracanes, después de las tormentas?
LA: Es bien problemático el Jones Act, ósea, porque como mencioné, no le permite a ningún país dar ayuda directa a Puerto Rico, tiene que llegar primero aquí, que toma tiempo cuando no hay tiempo, y obviamente toma recursos. Y eso es algo que el congreso y el senado, los dos han hablado por mucho tiempo, y creo que, si no recuerdo mal, creo que Biden hasta lo mencionó durante su campaña, que lo quería cancelar. Pero hasta el sol de hoy, no han hecho nada. Entonces, eso básicamente lo que significa en Puerto Rico es que todo es mucho más caro. Mucho más caro. Un carro, por ejemplo, te cuesta veinte por ciento más de lo que tú pagarías aquí en los Estados Unidos. Y todos eso son impuestos. Un galón de gasolina, perdón de leche, te cuesta casi siete dólares, que ridículo. Y es caro vivir, pero esas son cosas que se podrían hacer para aliviar esos costos, pero no han querido.
JB: Y si una persona que vive en Puerto Rico, ¿cómo sería la vida de ellos al día a día? Ya que todo es más caro, me imagino que tendrá que recibir más, un salario mejor.
LA: Sí, Puerto Rico tiene un índice de pobreza de casi cincuenta por ciento. Que cuando uno se pone a pensar, eso es wow. Sí, uno tiene que tener mucho cuidado en donde gasta y cómo gasta. Igual te digo, a los puertorriqueños les encanta la fiesta, les encanta andar de--. Pero, se las ingenian, como decimos nosotros, para poder hacerlo porque es que todo es caro. Tú sabes, tú vas al supermercado y tú no haces una compra por cien dólares. La gente sí tiene trabajos, muchos trabajos, yo sé que todos mis tíos por ejemplo tienen dos trabajos diferentes. O, las personas profesionales que han podido estudiar y tienen sus títulos, pues ganan más, pero es difícil. Ósea, eso de tener cuentas de ahorros no es algo normal, o tener una cuenta de retiro, por ejemplo, eso casi no existe porque la gente lo que hace es trabajar para vivir no para el futuro.
JB: Y bastantes de las personas tienen que trabajar para--. ¿O tienen crédito, tal vez?
LA: Sí, bueno, sí porque este es un sistema que obviamente se usa, el problema es tener crédito bueno y mantener el crédito bueno ¿verdad? Porque, por ejemplo, durante un huracán nadie está trabajando, ¿qué haces tú con los pagareses? Por dos, tres meses. Se complica la cosa mucho.
JB: Sí. Y usted mencionó que algunas personas tienen hasta dos, tres trabajos. ¿Esto es normal para las personas?
LA: Sí, completamente.
JB: ¿Solo para los profesionales no?
LA: No tanto para los profesionales porque normalmente estoy pensando en mis tíos, por ejemplo, mi tía que trabaja en un banco. Ella, su trabajo es normal, cuarenta horas a la semana, honestamente, pero tengo otros tíos que trabajan more en la “gig economy,” en la economía informal. Uno trabaja para Uber, tú sabes, y también tiene un Airbnb y cosas así, siempre tratan de buscárselas para poder tener su dinerito.
JB: Pero me imagino que la educación es bien cara, para poder--.
LA: Curiosamente, no. [Laughter].
JB: ¿No?
LA: Sí. Esa es una de las ironías de la de la vida. Ironías no tanto, pero curiosidades. En Puerto Rico la educación es como aquí en los Estados Unidos. La educación elemental, secundaria, es pagada por el estado. El nivel de educación es otra historia. Pero todo el mundo estudia hasta High School. La universidad es “subsidized” por el gobierno de Puerto Rico. Los estudiantes pagan bien poco por crédito. La última vez que vi, eran como cien o doscientos dólares por cada crédito. Que cuando tú lo comparas con lo que ustedes pagan aquí [Laughter] en UNC, o en cualquier universidad en los Estados Unidos. Pero, de nuevo, tenemos problemas en las universidades de Puerto Rico porque es difícil para la universidad retener a profesores. Aunque tenemos una de las mejores escuelas de ingeniería, de doctores, de lo que quieras. Y también, que las universidades son el lugar donde normalmente los jóvenes se movilizan rápido. Si hay problemas políticos, los estudiantes son los primeros que van a protestar y normalmente cierran la universidad. Hubo un año que una de mis primas, creo que le cerraron la universidad cuatro veces en un año por diferentes protestas políticas. Para muchas personas, honestamente, la estabilidad y el nivel de educación es mejor aquí en los Estados Unidos, aunque es más barato en Puerto Rico.
JB: Y usted dice que los profesores a veces van y vienen. Eso es una cosa que ellos salen de Puerto Rico, o es que el trabajo no--.
LA: Ambas, yo he tenido amigos--. Un poquito de todo. Es difícil. Ósea, uno de mis colegas, curiosamente de aquí, él era un estudiante graduado que recibió su Ph.D de aquí de UNC, regreso a Puerto Rico y duró un año. Se le iba la electricidad, no podía corregir; y después la atmósfera en la universidad también no le gustó mucho, y bla bla bla, es que es difícil. Ósea, comparado con los Estados Unidos es difícil. Pero igual te digo, tengo muchas compañeras profesionales que han obtenido sus títulos aquí, que han regresado; abogados, una cirujana plástica, que han regresado a Puerto Rico. Depende mucho de la persona y de la situación también, sí. Pero te diría que esas personas que tienen esos trabajos que pagan mucho más, obviamente no tienen la preocupación económica. Los problemas sociales siempre están, pero por lo menos no tienen que preocuparse por eso. Se les hace un poco más fácil quedarse en la isla que para personas que no tienen.
JB: Y usted diría que todas las personas en Puerto Rico tienen acceso a la educación, ¿o existen los mismos problemas que vemos hoy en día?
LA: Es muy similar que aquí en los Estados Unidos. Honestamente, todo el mundo va a la escuela; es que tanto aprendes en la escuela que es el problema. Porque, por ejemplo, el inglés. Todo el mundo en Puerto Rico toma inglés, todos los años que está en la escuela. Eso no es opcional. Pero cuando se gradúan ¿qué porcentaje habla inglés? Bien poquito. Eso también es una reflexión del sistema de educación y de la retención. Otro problema gigantesco que no he mencionado es que a los maestros no les pagan nada. Mi madre fue maestra pública, de inglés curiosamente, por veinticuatro años. Y su salario máximo cuando se retiró fueron diecisiete mil dólares al año. ¿Qué incentivo tiene un maestro en Puerto Rico, donde la vida es tan cara y las cosas son tan difíciles, de ser maestro?
JB: Entonces, mayorías se quedan porque les gusta, no es--.
LA: O por la familia. Por la familia, honestamente. Yo tengo primos y varios tíos que tú no los sacas de Puerto Rico jamás. Porque están tan--. Esa es su vida.
JB: Y toda la familia de ellos que están ahí todavía o mayoría se han venido.
LA: Curiosamente, el tío que estoy pensando sí, la hija está estudiando en Nueva York ahora, veremos si regresa. Pero sí, toda esa familia de mi papá se ha quedado en Puerto Rico.
JB: Y usted dijo que usted tiene una propiedad allá en Puerto Rico, ¿cómo ha sido eso? Teniendo esa propiedad hasta allá.
LA: Bueno, tenemos suerte porque está en el mismo complejo donde vive mi tía, la hermana de mi papá. Ella nos ayuda mucho a cuidarla, y por ejemplo durante el huracán María--porque la propiedad está en un tercer piso, es un condo en el piso máximo--ella se fue a nuestra condo durante el huracán, porque ella vivía en el en el primer piso y por las inundaciones y bla bla. Sí, es, es, es problemático en el sentido de que todo es caro, I mean. Aun no viviendo ahí la electricidad es cara. [Laughter] You know, es el mantenimiento y también la preocupación de si cuando vienen tormentas necesitamos ocupar una persona que vaya a poner las tormenteras, a guardar agua, lo que sea. Para nosotros honestamente ha sido bien esencial como familia porque nosotros siempre hemos querido preservar nuestras raíces y nuestra cultura, y todo lo que sea con la familia. Y el tener nuestro propio espacio donde podemos ir cuando queramos sin molestar a nadie es--. Vale la pena.
JB: ¿Y usted planea moverse allá algún día, o?
LA: Curiosamente, sí y no. Mi esposo y yo hemos discutido esto mucho. Yo quiero--en un futuro ideal--yo quiero trabajar o crear un NGO de algún tipo que ayude--. Tengo varias ideas, pero uno es a la juventud con entrenamiento profesional. o tengo como te digo varias ideas, pero quiero hacer algo que ayude a la isla en un sentido ecológico también a veces pienso, pero no sé. Vivir ahí permanentemente no, de nuevo porque es difícil. Me encanta visitar y me encanta estar un mes, dos meses, pero se complica mucho. Y también que uno se malacostumbra. Aquí todo es tan fácil, honestamente. Y se me haría difícil un poquito ya que llevo tanto tiempo acá. Pero lo podría hacer, pero creo que también con los años, uno busca la comodidad. Sí, quiero pasar meses allá todos los años, pero no vivir permanentemente.
JB: ¿Me imagino que también la adaptación sería más difícil de dejar todo aquí?
LA: Exacto, y tengo mi casa y todas mis cosas acá, y sí mis papás también están acá.
JB: ¿Y sus papás no planean tampoco ir jamás?
LA: Oh no. Bueno, mi papá sí, si fuera por mi papá: en Puerto Rico feliz y contento. Mi mamá no tanto. Sí, mi mamá ya, bueno, va a cumplir ochenta años. También ella se ha acostumbrado mucho al estilo tranquilo, sin problemas aquí en los Estados Unidos.
JB: ¿Sí, y su propiedad está en el área turística o en?
LA: Está en lo que se considera el área Metro. Si tú llegas a San Juan ¿verdad? El pueblo inmediatamente al este es Carolina y el próximo pueblo se llama Canóvanas, ahí. Estamos literalmente a quince minutos del aeropuerto, del área metro. Al viejo San Juan son como 25 minutos, media hora. Bien centralizados.
JB: ¿Y entonces cuando usted regresa usted ve bastante a los turistas que están allí o?
LA: Sí, sí, no hay manera de evitarlo. [Laughter]
JB: Sí, bueno, está bien. ¿Y Esa propiedad la tiene rentada o es suya nada más?
LA: Es de nosotros.
JB: Oh okay, le preguntaba por si tal vez la tenía rentada y tal vez tenía “income” pero--¬.
LA: No, no, mi papá lo pensó, pero honestamente no quieren lidiar con todas las complicaciones.
JB: Sí, sí y los arreglos me imagino también son más caros.
LA: Sí, exacto.
JB: Bueno entonces para continuar, a ver, bueno su propiedad está bien cerca de los turistas. Cuando usted va a visitar, ¿usted le gusta hablar con los turistas que van o solo le gusta estar en su área?
LA: [Laughter] Bueno, sabes que me gusta visitar lugares que no son tan turísticos porque es que honestamente me gusta más la comida más auténtica. Pero siempre vamos, por ejemplo, a mi esposo y a mí nos encanta el Viejo San Juan, y el Viejo Samuel es siempre está lleno de turistas, so. A mí no me molesta honestamente porque sé que es una parte tan importante de la economía y ellos no causan muchos problemas, pero también yo no salgo por la noche. Yo no voy a los clubs y ahí es donde en un momento hay, pero yo no tengo mucho que ver con eso.
JB: Y usted dijo que Puerto Rico es--la parte de turística es bastante porcentaje de su economía. ¿Cómo diría que afectaría si no hay más turismo en Puerto Rico?
LA: Seria devastador, honestamente, porque especialmente en el área metro es honestamente la industria más grande. Y es otro problema que--cuando vienen los huracanes--también que toma tiempo recuperar y reconstruir las habitaciones de hotel, y hemos visto en los últimos años que muchos hoteles cerraron y nunca abrieron. Número uno porque las pérdidas fueron tan grandes que no valía la pena gastar el dinero para reabrir. Y número dos que no saben si va a haber un huracán el año que viene, o en un mes. Sería devastador honestamente, pero sí, los turistas--. A mí la pena que siempre me da con los turistas es que llegan al área metro y no salen del área metro, y para mí eso es como que una representación tan específica de Puerto Rico que me encantaría verlos explorar las otras partes de la isla un poco.
JB: ¿Como cuáles áreas si puedo preguntar?
LA: Sí, no, está bien, por ejemplo, mucha gente va a San Juan y va al Yunque, que es el bosque tropical que está como a media hora, 45 minutos con el tráfico. Por ejemplo, en el sur tenemos Ponce que es la segunda ciudad más grande. La perla del sur cómo le llaman muy, histórica, muy bonita para visitar. También si tú vas al lado oeste, al norte o sur, playas, “surfing”--es precioso, I mean, todo Puerto Rico. Esos son partes que no se exploran tanto porque toma un segundo llegar, pero que, honestamente podrían ser atracciones turísticas también como como el Viejo San Juan.
JB: Sí y usted mencionó que usted tiene un tío que trabaja por Uber, no se--.
LA: Sí.
JB: Sí. ¿Cómo ha sido el perspectivo de él trabajando allá?
LA: Sí, pues, [Laughter] eso es una historia interesante también porque uno de los problemas grandes con los carros en Puerto Rico es que las carreteras son terribles. Un carro normal aquí en los Estados Unidos te dura, ¿qué, 10 años? En Puerto Rico no porque entre los hoyos, y las gomas se te explotan, o los accidentes, es terrible. Para él ha sido interesante porque tú ser un conductor de Uber significa que tu carro te va a durar mucho menos. Y cuando tú eres miembro--ósea, “the head of the household”--son consideraciones que él ha tenido que hacer. Pero además de eso, no, lo encuentra bien porque él vive bien cerca del aeropuerto, para él es una ventaja porque puede, literalmente--. Sale en el aeropuerto 10 minutos, y cómo hay tanto turista, y los turistas americanos están tan acostumbrados a usar Uber, que se le ha hecho relativamente fácil, honestamente, eso. Y ha sido un buen una buena inyección de efectivo para él.
JB: Lo que él ha--. Porque usted dice que los carros casi no duran nada, entonces lo que él invierte en su carro, él ve que siempre puede recibir de los “tips,” y--.
LA: Sí, definitivo porque también este con Uber tú sabes que dependiendo del tipo de carro que tú tienes y que tan viejo es, te dan una clasificación diferente. Like, hay Uber X y hay Uber bla bla bla, si tienes un carro un poquito más nuevo, puedes pedir más dinero por los viajes, él ha tenido mucha suerte con eso.
JB: Eso es bueno, sí.
LA: Sí.
JB: Y, a ver--. Y la experiencia, ¿él tiene hijos o?
LA: Sí, tiene dos niñas.
JB: ¿Y están en la escuela aun?
LA: Sí, una es la que está en la universidad y la otra ya se graduó, está en Puerto Rico.
JB: Sí, ¿y ellas piensan regresar a Puerto Rico y quedarse ahí, o una de ellas está estudiando?
LA: Una está estudiando y honestamente a mí no me sorprendería para nada que se quede acá en los Estados Unidos, porque ella siempre le ha encantado todo eso. Pero la otra no, la otra se queda en Puerto Rico tranquila.
JB: Y para la vida de un niño que vive allá, ¿de qué consiste? ¿Cómo estar llenos de la cultura, me imagino, y bastante familia?
LA: Sí, las familias son grandes. Yo siempre le digo a mis estudiantes que pasar tiempo con la familia en Puerto Rico no es opcional porque en un fin de semana, por ejemplo, mi tía llega--no llama ni nada, ella llega--y de momento llegaron mis tíos y llegaron los primos, y hay una fiesta, y nadie anunció. Y “ay, ¿que tienes en la nevera?” [Laughter] Y la pasamos bien, y también que, como uno está en tan constante comunicación con todo el mundo, los vemos durante la semana y “ay, ¿vas al supermercado? ¿Me puedes traer algo?” En ese sentido hay cómo, ¿qué sé yo? Un poquito más de un “cushion,” creo yo, que a veces que aquí en los Estados Unidos. Porque tú te crías con tus primos y con tus tíos. No es que los ves una vez, no. Te crías con ellos, like hablas con ellos regularmente, te van a visitar, van a comer. Ósea que ese tipo de interacción es algo tan normal que sí, es algo interesante en algunos sentidos, pero bien bonito.
JB: Y toda su familia vive alrededor de--.
LA: Cerca, sí, bien cerca, sí.
JB: Y cuando paso el huracán María y también el huracán Irma ¿cómo fue afectada esa relación ya que, como me imagino que tal vez no podían verse tanto?
LA: Pues sí, bueno yo estuve año y medio, dos años sin ir a Puerto Rico. Algo así. Que para mí fue mucho, sí. Nosotros--. Inicialmente no se visita la isla porque nosotros siempre decimos “yo no quiero serle un ‘burden’ para cuando hay problemas,” y por eso no. Pero sí, honestamente tomó un poquito de tiempo restablecer los viajes y eso, porque las cosas no estaban muy seguras por mucho tiempo. Pero no, ahora ellos nos visitan, nosotros los visitamos cuando podemos. Ahora mismo la hermana de mi papá, mi tía, está en casa de mis papás aquí en la Florida [Laughter]. Sí, siempre cuando podemos.
JB: ¿Y para los que vivían en la isla, fue también difícil también para ellos?
LA: Sí, salir--.
JB: ¿Era más fácil caminar o estaban muy lejos?
LA: No, está muy lejos para caminar. Bueno sí, estoy pensando. Sí, porque viven--. Te diría que, abrir las calles como quien dice, toma varios días porque si hay árboles, y de esto yo sé que sí. A mis tíos por lo menos les tomó varios días comunicarse entre ellos y poder salir de los vecindarios para ver cómo estaba todo el mundo. Pero eso es normal, desafortunadamente, y más que nada por los árboles porque nadie tiene “chainsaws,” ¿verdad? Muy pocas personas. ¿Si se cae un árbol, que haces? Porque no puedes sacar el carro. Pero viven literalmente a 10 minutos de cada uno.
JB: ¿Si el gobierno de Puerto Rico fuera a decir que cada casa debe tener “old land line,” como dicen, la manera vieja del teléfono, cree que la comunicación sería mejor con usted durante la tormenta o después de la tormenta?
LA: Me encantaría decir que sí, pero tan pocas personas usan los “landlines” ahora, todo el mundo usa celulares que--. Pero sí, honestamente sería lo ideal. Por ejemplo, la isla de la familia de mi mamá que se llama Vieques es literalmente un cable que corre debajo del mar que trae la electricidad y trae todo a la isla. Y eso es uno de los problemas donde María, ese cable ha sufrió daños, tuvieron que--. Por eso fue que tomó un año restablecer la electricidad. Uno a veces piensa “ay, si está debajo de la tierra da protección.” Sí, no, depende de lo que es y cómo--.
JB: ¿Así que no cree que facilitaría el proceso?
LA: Honestamente no.
JB: ¿Y también me imagino que sería caro también mantenerlo, pagar bill?
LA: Sí, o con las lluvias también a veces tener ese tipo de--. Por ejemplo, la electricidad debajo, es complicado. Yo creo que por eso es que no es algo que es standard en Puerto Rico, que llueve mucho. Y muchas partes del área metro se inundan rápida y fácilmente, so imagínate la electricidad con agua. [Laughter]
JB: Sí, sí, sí. Okay, ahora sí. Bueno, muchas gracias por su entrevista.
LA: Con gusto, querida.
JB: Bueno, le voy a enviar toda la información después.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Transcription by Johana Bautista-Ayala
31 March 2023
Edited by Daniel Velasquez, January 2024
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
R-1018 -- Avilés de León, Lornaida.
Description
An account of the resource
Lornaida Avilés de León is a Teaching Assistant Professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill in the Department of Romance Studies, a Collaborative Online International Learning (COIL) Faculty Fellow, and a Study Abroad Faculty Leader. Lornaida was born in San Juan, Puerto Rico and migrated to the US when she was 12. During this interview, she tells us her family’s migration experience due to environmental factors, and details specifically the many challenges the island faces due to hurricanes. These include the instability of the power grid, the detrimental effects of that incertitude on residents and businesses, the way in which disaster aid is affected by the Jones Act of 1920, the toll of hurricane-readiness on the elderly and poorer residents of the island, and the pace of rebuilding efforts. Lornaida concludes the interview by describing Puerto Rico’s tourism-dominated economy and shares her thoughts on areas to visit besides San Juan.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-03-27
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29367">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
R1018_Audio.mp3
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/c52c32e14f31285083f38ffb1c51c41f.mp3
696bef109dd4537de14e0d9c8dde7076
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/46981fdfa2994df0f4bc1a55ce807cd0.pdf
465a611e43b1c7556e21b7de1a5dfcb7
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-1017
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
Fecha
2023-03-14
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Cáceres Rodríguez, Andrés Jésus.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Students
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
2003
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Male
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Chacao -- Caracas (Miranda) -- Venezuela
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Raleigh -- Wake County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-66.855787 10.4932844), 2003, 1;POINT(-80.7440174 34.9248125), 2014, 2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Montes, Gabriella.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
In this interview, interviewer Gabriella Montes learns about Venezuela’s recent history as experienced by her long-time friend, Andrés Cáceres. He describes the first ten years of his life in his city of origin, Caracas, Venezuela. He explains details about his family relationships, home life and school life as he grew up in the economic turmoil occurring in Venezuela since the 1940s. He shares his experience being a new student, his struggle in school in North Carolina, and how difficult this overall adjustment was. Andrés recounts that despite this struggle in the U.S., as well as Venezuela, he misses his home country, and mentions some of the happier moments he had back home and the friends and experiences he’s made here.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Andrés Jésus Cáceres Rodríguez by Gabriella Montes, 14 March 2023, R-1017, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29364
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Citizenship and immigration; K12 education; Migratory experience; Language and communication; Receiving communities
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Estudiantes
Es: Género de entrevistado
Hombre
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
En esta entrevista, Andrés nos cuenta acerca de los primeros diez años de su vida en su país natal de Caracas, Venezuela. También nos habla sobre sus relaciones familiares, vida en casa y vida escolar mientras crecía en la crisis económica que ocurre en Venezuela desde la década de 1940. Nos lleva de regreso a su experiencia como nuevo estudiante, su lucha en las escuelas en Carolina del Norte y lo difícil que fue este ajuste general. Andrés relata que a pesar de esta lucha en los Estados Unidos, así como en Venezuela, extraña su país natal y nos habla de algunas de las memorias más felices que tuvo en Venezuela, y también de los amigos y experiencias que ha creído aquí.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Andrés Jésus Cáceres Rodríguez por Gabriella Montes, 14 March 2023, R-1017, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
ciudadanía e imigración; comunidades receptoras; educación básica y media; experiencia migratoria; lenguaje e comunicación
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Gabriella: Ok, My name is Gabriella Montes. I am here with…
Andrés: Andrés.
Gabriella: And we are at my house. The time is 8:57 p.m., and today is March 14th 2023, and today we will be discussing Andrés’ migration journey from Venezuela to North Carolina, and yeah, are you consenting to this interview, Andrés?
Andrés: Yes [pause] I consent.
G: All right, so, if you want to just like start off and just say like your name, age, occupations, school, and all that kind of stuff.
[00:00:55] A: So my name is Andrés Jésus Cáceres Rodriguéz, I’m twenty years old, I turned twenty not too long ago on March 5th, I'm currently going to school at NC State, trying to get my degree in chemical engineering, my bachelor's degree in chemical engineering, and I've previously worked at a cabinet manufacturing company as a cabinet painter, so that was really good. That was my first real job, and right now I'm looking into getting an internship at Sherwin-Williams, engineering internship, so that's cool.
G: Awesome, okay, and can you tell just like a little bit more about yourself, and just like, briefly describe your connection to like, your migration journey and your heritage?
[00:02:30] A: so, I was born in a smaller subdivision in Caracas, so I was born in Chacao, which is – a lot of people say its Caracas, but it's like, technically not – it’s like two minutes away from the main city, so it's technically not Caracas, but it's so close that people still call it that. I was born in a small clinic, and I lived in my grandparents’ house for 9 years until I moved to – we moved to our own apartment, but, I was basically raised mainly by my grandparents ‘cause, my parents were always working. They were always out and doing their own thing, and my grandparents were always at home.
G: And, like, do you want to talk a little more about your relationship with your grandparents, was it like your mom's parents or your dad's parents?
A: It was my mom’s parents, so my dad's parents – they lived a little bit farther away and we got to see them like for family reunions and stuff like that but – it was mainly, I mainly lived around my mom's parents, and they're always very, very nice and very patient, because they certainly didn't have to do that for my parents, but the fact that they were still able to be there with us, and take care of us and take us to school it was, it was something that I'm sure my parents are very thankful for and I'm very thankful for it, ‘cause I got to spend more time with them, so yeah.
G: They were like a second set of parents for you, for like, the first, almost, ten years of your life?
A: Yea basically, they were always there for me, my grandpa was actually the one who… I was into sports when I was younger. I did baseball for five years, and I swam for 3 years, and he was always the one to take me to practice, he was always the one to, basically drive me around and I would always do stuff with him. Yeah, he was my main guy for like a really long time, so…
G: That's so sweet – and are those the grandparents – do they still like, visit you guys or do you still visit them?
A: Yea, so they actually still live here. They live in Miami right now, but they rotate six months in Miami, and six months here.
G: Ok, and they live with you guys, like, when they come here. Do they live with you guys for like a few months in the summer?
A: Yea, so, this past year they actually lived the whole six months, because my aunt, she wasn't really in a situation where she could have them. We welcomed them to our house because she couldn't, but it's usually… they usually live 3 months with my aunt, and 3 months with us.
G: Thats nice.
A: Yeah they… it's not really, Venezuela is not really in a suitable situation for them to go back.
G: Yeah, so, when was the last time they were there?
A: I wanna say 2020… definitely before the pandemic, that's for sure… tempted to say 2018, was the last time they were back there.
G: And then, those are your mom’s parents?
A: My mom’s parents, yeah.
G: And so, just for the recording, Andrés and I have been friends for like, I don't know, seven years, I think, and you’ve talked to me about your grandpa before, and is this the same grandpa that lived in Puerto Rico?
A: He is Puerto Rican.
G: Ok.
A: He is Puerto Rican.
G: Ok, and do you wanna expand on that a little more on that?
A: Sure, yea, so my grandpa, his mother was German and his father was Dominican, but they – during the second World War – my grandma, well my great grandma, my grandpa’s mom, she had to leave. She had to leave Germany, so she did, and she went to, Santo Domingo in the Dominican Republic, and then she met my grandpa’s dad there, and then they settled down in Puerto Rico, not long after, and that's where they had him. And then he lived there for, I’d say like, 2 years of his life, and then they moved to Puerto Rico – or sorry – they moved back to Santo Domingo, so he ended up living in Dominican Republic for, for a while and then, I can't remember exactly when he left to go to Venezuela, but it was – he was still young, he was still young.
G: And then, that's where he met your grandma?
A: My grandma, mhm, so he met my grandma… it's a funny story, he would go – he was really in love – he would go 12 hours to see her every weekend, like, ‘cause he was working at a research lab – I think it was a research lab – because he was a agriculture engineer, he did a lot of work with meat production and dairy production, and when he was off, he would drive 12 hours to go see her in Merida, ‘cause he was working – I can't remember where he was working – but I just know it was 12 hours away from where my grandma lived.
G: Yea.
A: Which was in a very small town close to the Andes, it was very small.
G: Oh wow, wow, ‘cause Merida is like in the northern part of-
A: Very close to Colombia, yea.
G: Wow, that's so cute, aw.
A: Yea, twelve hours…
G: Wow, so he’s dedicated!
A: He was dedicated!
G: Ok, so what was, to get back into like more about you, what was school like while you were in Venezuela?
[00:08:15] A: So I went to a private Catholic school, it’s called Santo Tomas de Villanueva, and I went there, from, I want to say right before first grade, – so what we call it over there is preparatorio – and I went there all the way up to 5th grade, which was right when I left, and that school, it really shaped me, like, I'm not necessarily the most religious person today, but the values it instilled in me, I think school had a lot to do with that. They had a lot of core values, that we were exposed to everyday, basically, because we had a lot of classes that dealt with values and family and stuff like that.
G: And is that like, common for kids in Venezuela to go to private Catholic schools or?
A: It is more common for kids to go to private schools, because public schools over there don't really function that well, and they’re no longer – it's not like here where you have a public school system, its kinda like, you have several schools scattered around. It's mainly more common for people to go to private schools, and private schools over there – back when I was still there – they were not that expensive, so people with middle to lower income could still afford putting their kids in private school.
G: So like families who had kids, it was typically like they were either going to private Catholic schools or just private schools?
A: Yea, pretty much.
G: I guess like, do you want to talk a little more about like, the friends you met, ‘cause you said it was like very formative for you, so do you want to talk more about any teachers that were memorable to you?
A: Oh yea, oh yea, so I still regularly communicate with a lot of the friends I made over there, yea we – I like to play videogames, and they play a lot of the same video games that I do, and so that's one of the main ways I keep in contact, you know, just playing video games when I have time, whenever I’m not doing schoolwork, I’m probably just talking or playing with them. As for teacher, my mom actually still keeps in contact with one of the professors over there, who still – she kind of asks about me from time to time and I talked to her through – I still don't know why I don't have her number – but whenever my mom, whenever she gets a message from her, she'll show me, and I'll respond but –
G: It's always through your mom?
A: It's always through my mom.
G: Yea.
A: Just haven't gotten around to – there's really no reason as to why, I just haven't gotten her, in contact with her, personally – but yeah I’ve gotten into contact with her from time to time. Whenever she reaches out – she was my fifth grade, third and fifth grade math teacher – and she always said I was good with numbers and she thought I would go into like something related to numbers and I did, so.
G: Does she know that you're currently studying chemical engineering?
A: Yea she knows, yea I talked – we had a conversation about it four months ago,
G: Really?
A: Yeah, that I was in a chemical engineering program here.
G: And like, what was like, her reaction?
A: She was – she told my mom, ‘cause I had to I had to go back to what I was doing, but she was telling my mom like how proud she was of the achievements, and the fact that I've been able to find a program and be successful here after after moving. She was very proud that she met me and had such a good time with me as her student, and to see me like be successful somewhere else was really cool for her to see. She was proud, she was proud.
[00:13:17] G: That's awesome, awe, ok, so I guess to kinda like, take a bit of a sharp left turn, were you ever aware of the instability in Venezuela, and with the riots that were going on, ‘cause, when exactly did you leave Venezuela?
A: I left in October of 2014, and the riots had been going on for about two years, or maybe even more actually, but I remember my family constantly like, talking about the fact there's a riot close to where I went to school, semi-often, you know, you could see a little bit of smoke in the distance, you could see it above the treeline, you could see smoke, you couldn't hear anything, but you could see the smoke, and my parents usually knew that, “oh, there's something going on over there like,” ‘cause it's not usually normal just seeing smoke over the tree line.
G: Yeah.
A: So, yeah, so, those have been going on for a while.
G: Did it ever, like, interfere with your school week, like did you ever have school canceled because of those riots?
A: I don't, I don't actually think school was ever canceled because of the riots, I think maybe once, but, you know, they were mainly in the city. I was a little bit farther away from the capital city, I was like 5 minutes away, so they were mainly over there in the very-
G: Ohhh
A: -populated, like super dense areas, ‘cause where I went to school, it was still a really dense area, but it was more-
G: Definitely away from the center of it all,
A: And it was a little bit of a, there was more money in the area, so people didn't really go there to riot.
G: And did you like, so with the riots basically just being like so close to your school, did you ever have any kind of like, first-hand experience or exposure to them, besides seeing the smoke from the tree line?
A: No but I did have other experiences, not in school. I had seen them before, I saw them when I was going to my other grandparents house, my dad’s parents. They live in a little bit of a more unsafe area, where a lot of those things would tend to happen.
G: What area is that?
A: It's El Valle. It's a little bit of more, I guess, poor area, where they lived, and that's where a lot of those things would happen, a lot of the riots would happen there. I remember one time we were going over there just for a family reunion to see my grandparents, and it was going down, it was really going down, yea I was… the police were posted up in a line formation with their shields,
G: Oh my gosh.
A: And the people were in the – what are they called?
G: Goggles?
A: No not goggles, they were like, balaclavas or something?
G: Ohh yea yea.
A: Yea, everyone was wearing those, to protect themselves from the smoke bombs, cause they would use tear gas on them, the military or the police would use tear gas on them, and it was only that one time that I really gotta see it, that was close.
G: How did you feel, how old were you?
A: So, it was in 2012, or 2013, the year before I left, so I was 10, I was almost 11.
G: And how did you like feel in that moment, that must’ve been scary, was it right outside?
A: It was not outside my grandparent’s place, it was a little bit off to the side, closer to a mall that they had close. So there was a lot of traffic, so we kind of were forced to look at it for a while and see everyone like, see the chaos pretty much, it was pretty chaotic.
G: Wow.
A: But I was never physically in one of those. I do remember my grandparents, they felt compelled to go to the protests, they weren’t riots, they were more like protests where people, you know, masses of people would gather and basically gather from one end of a really long avenue to another, and they did that to like raise awareness, and retaliate against the government. But it was never violent, it was more like a, you know just, a peaceful protest.
[00:18:40] G: Yeah. So in mentioning the protest, you said like, “raising awareness about what was going on in the government,” can you like describe more of what exactly was going on with the government?
A: So the government… Venezuela is incredibly corrupt. They steal, and they launder money, and they traffic a lot of drugs – they traffic drugs to the United States – they steal from the people, and they've cheated their way through every single election since they've been elected, since Chavez was elected in ‘99. I remember my parents, when Maduro got elected, it was like, they voted for the other candidate, I don't remember the other candidate, but whenever we got the news that Maduro had been elected, they weren't really surprised, they were kind of just like, “we really didn't want it to happen, but we're not surprised that it did.”
G: Yea.
A: Because it's just how the government operates, it's corrupt, and it's… it's just full of liars, so yeah in that regard, I've always been aware of the people in charge and how they are, and I've always been around it.
G: And how long, cause, it was Chavez, but now it's Maduro, right? So how long has he been in power?
A: He got elected, well he didn't get elected, presidency was passed down to him, because he was the vice president, and then-
G: From Chavez?
A: Yea, and then they had their elections, but they weren't really elections ‘cause he was gonna win anyways,
G: Yea.
A: So, they had their democratic elections after Chavez died from cancer back in 2013, he died, and then Maduro got elected, or he stepped into the presidency, that's when he became president.
G: So, he's been in power for almost 10 years now?
A: Yea, almost, I think yea.
G: Under the guise of, quote unquote, democracy.
A: Yea, under the guise of “democracy.”
[00:21:20] G: Wow, so that was around the same time you guys basically like, moved to the U.S. and, do you want to explain more on like, I know you already said when, it was like October 2014, so, why did you guys come to the specifically North Carolina, you could’ve gone anywhere else, why North Carolina?
A: Yeah, so, my parents had been talking to my aunt, who also lives in North Carolina, and she basically said that, you know, if we kind of wanted to break from the city, and the busy life, that Waxhaw – which is where she lived – would be a pretty drastic, but good change for us, and also the fact that, you know, she could give us a place to live at least until we got our bearings.
G: Yeah.
A: Yeah so we moved with her for about six months, she was always great to us, I'm really thankful for her and the time that she was able to give us, to get our bearings. And then we we moved to Indian Trail, but I think my parents decided to move here – they've been in the process of getting our documentation since 1999, which is when Chavez got elected, because my mom was like, “all right…” she really did not like him as a presidential candidate or as a president, so she kind of kick-started the process of getting all our papers and getting — well, getting their papers first, ‘cause I wasn't even in the picture in 1999, but the turning point, I think, for actually finishing out the process was 2012, which is when my mom really was like, cause it was kinda in the back of their minds in 1999 all the way through like 2010, they were kind of like, “stuff is good,” you know, my dad had a very stable job, my mom also had a stable job, so they kind of put it off, and they didn't really think about it, ‘cause they didn't think we were going to have to move. My mom still wanted to have that, just as a safeguard, and it wasn't until 2012, where she was like, “all right, we, we need to, we need to finish this.”
G: So when did, like, I'm not very well versed with the whole like, papers and documentation things, so when did like, your mom, get papers? So was it like the green card first or like?
A: So we had to, I actually don't don't know the order of things, but I do remember the day that they were finalized.
G: Yeah.
[00:23:45] A: I do remember going to the Embassy, US Embassy, we were there for
roughly 8 hours.
G: Yeah.
A: We were there maybe, maybe a little bit more, and we were waiting for our turn to, basically, ‘cause my parents had to talk to one of the Embassy agents, I don't really know what they're called, but, they had to sign documents and go through, like, the small interview process, and then they would be sworn in. They would have to take an oath to the United States, that's when I remember seeing like, our actual documents in their hand.
G: So it was all four of you guys at the same time?
A: Yea, it was all four of us.
G: And how old were…
A: I was ten.
G: So, like 2013?
A: Yep, it was, I think it might have been right before, a little bit before my birthday… that time is kind of, I don't really remember dates that well from that time, but, it was definitely between the end of 2013 and October 2014. It was really close actually I think, it was really close to October 2014.
G: It was like, just in time.
A: Yea, it was just in time.
G: Ok, yea those Embassy and like, naturalization process takes..
A: They take a while, yeah.
[00:25:40] G: Can you talk a little more about your adjustment to your new life in North Carolina, so like, in terms of like, making new friends, going to school, all that kind of stuff.
A: So I went to, when I moved to Waxhaw, I went to Cuthbertson, which is a predominantly white middle school, so I didnt, I’d say I kinda struggled to make friends there, ‘cause I didn't know the language yet, but I did meet this one Colombian kid who was really, we were good friends until I moved away. His name is Federico and he was cool, but making friends was hard at Cuthbertson, and I'd say I really only had him as my friend, and it was, it was I think, the most difficult part of it for me was the fact that I was always kind of high achieving… I was always like, I was kind of like, a little bit rough on myself if I didn't excel in academics, which I did not at Cuthbertson, because of the language barrier.
G: Yea.
A: Yea like I, it was like-
G: They just kinda threw you in there.
A: Yea, they kinda just threw me in there, which I really had no other choice, ‘cause I had to go to school, but I didn't know the language and that was kinda, that I was just really hard on myself for, for a time because, I wasn't used to… I just have really high standards for myself and underperformance is something I couldn't really handle very well back then, and I wasn't really aware of how to handle, so I'd say that was one of the harder things, making friends was also really hard, and then just communication, was just, I just really wanted to talk to my professor, and my teacher and classmates, but it was just wasn't possible for like a few months, and there was also the, like, there's also a little bit of bullying, from like, like two kids. I didn't really know what they were saying, at the time, but I could tell they were like talking about me, but, overall I think I got pretty lucky, actually, going to Cuthbertson, ‘cause it was a really nice school, I liked it, it was just hard at the beginning, it was just something really huge, it was just a really huge change, going from-
G: It's a hard change.
A: A large Catholic school to a school in a completely different language and completely different country. I was with my friends, I've been with my friends from the school in Venezuela, from before first grade all the way up to 5th grade.
G: Yeah.
A: So, I didn't really have that support system anymore, I didn't have those friends that have been with me for 6 years.
G: Yeah.
A: You know, I was with a completely new group of people and new teachers and new faces and completely new language, so, that was… that was hard to adjust to but, yea.
G: And then, so, you went to Cuthbertson for your first year of middle school right?
A: Mhm, well I left Cuthbertson halfway through the year, and I went to Sun Valley, which is where I met you, about… I wanna say like, a month after I moved to Sun Valley is when I met you.
G: I remember it was the summer before seventh grade.
A: Summer before seventh grade?
G: Yea.
A: Well I remember seeing you in the hallways, and… but maybe we didn't have a real conversation until the summer.
G: Yea, yea, and then, so like, and that was like finally some stability for you, and like, you graduated from Sun Valley middle, so, talk more about… if it was nice to have that stability.
A: So yeah we were finally done moving. My parents had like, “I think we can settle down here for a while,” and we ended up settling down, and I stayed in Sun Valley until 8th grade, which was when I graduated middle school, so that was nice. It was nice to finally have some sense of belonging and in a new place, ‘cause at Cuthbertson, I barely got to adjust, and even when I left I still didn't feel like, fully adjusted, but then I got to Sun Valley and it was that same process all over again. At least at that point I kind of had the language to kind of-
G: Yeah.
A: – Kinda had it, but not fully, but I could at least make friends and communicate with people and communicate any concerns to my, my teachers and stuff like that, but it was the point where I was like, okay we’re just gonna settle down and be fine, yeah.
G: Do you have any like, moments in middle school after Cuthbertson, where, like… did you have any friends in Sun Valley where it was like, “okay they're like, a bit of a godsend, thank God, I have a friend who's gonna look out for me,” or even like teachers too?
A: Yea, I would say you were definitely one of those people for me, in seventh grade, I definitely saw you as a, as a person I could rely on, in terms of other people, I'd say, I had really good science eighth grade Professor – I don't know if you remember him – Mr. Barron, he was great.
G: Mr. Barron…
A: Mr. Barron.
G: I remember the name, was it for the AIG team?
A: No I was only in the AIG for English.
G: Ok.
A: Yea I only had AIG for English, but he was great, he was always like, super friendly and nice and understanding, and yea I think that's it.
[00:33:10] G: Yeah ok, well I kind of wanted like, to backtrack ‘cause, I don't know if you mentioned it in the recording, or during the recording, but it was before the recording. Do you think you can talk a little bit more about the CLAP program, and what you know about it and what your friends have told you about it?
A: Yeah, so, this program, the one that Gaby's mentioning right now, is a mitigation program for the people of Venezuela, so it's trying to deal with the fact that food items are very scarce, your basic necessity items are really scarce, so back in 2016, Maduro established a program to try to mitigate, quote unquote, mitigate the humanitarian issue, which is the food problem in Venezuela. And it's basically a little box of a protein, but most of the time it's going to be rice, pasta, any sort of bean, usually it's black beans, but it's usually for lower income families. They get them once every 2 months. So, it's definitely not something that is sustainable, that program isn't sustainable for people getting a box of that size every 2 months is not the solution to the problem, and this problem has been going on for, ever since I left. The problem’s been getting worse, but it was always present, ever since 2010 is when it really started. But, in 2014 is when it started getting really bad, where you couldn't find your, you know, basic need items like, toilet paper or chicken or rice – rice was especially hard to find – and yeah, you, I remember, I just remember seeing really, really long lines at the supermarket like, huge like probably 50 meter, maybe 100 meters lines.
G: Yeah.
A: Just of people just waiting to get food.
G: Yeah, and like basic necessities.
A: Yeah, I don't know if you've seen videos like that, of people, in Colombia, like, people line up for food.
G: Yeah, it's ridiculous and sometimes like, stores will close while people are in line and they won't get their stuff.
A: They won't get their food, no.
G: That is, yeah, that is not very sustainable for a country.
A: No it’s not.
[00:36:05] G: Before I forget, do you have any family left in Venezuela?
A: I do, so, I have some of my cousins, It's mainly my, my dad's side still over there in Venezuela, I have some aunts, great aunts, cousins… they're still all, they're scattered around the country, some of them are in Maracaibo, some of them are in Caracas, and some of them are closer to the coast, but I still have a lot of people over there.
G: And do you know, like, do you like communicate with them often to know, like, how they're doing?
A: I communicate mainly with my cousins, because a lot of my family members over there don't really have phones, or they don't really have social media like that so, I mainly communicate with my cousins. My closer cousins. And they, I always saw them during our family reunions, so I've been, kept in contact with them because of, mainly because they have social media and they have a cell phone and they're just closer.
G: Ok, and the same thing with like, your friends, you just keep in contact with them through like, social media and video games?
A: Yes I do, a lot of like, a lot of them, it's been real easy to keep in contact with a lot of them, because they're, they're a lot younger than the, most of my family is, over there, there's a lot of the family that I have left over there is a little bit older, they're probably in like their 50s or 60s.
G: Even your cousins?
A: No my, everyone except for my cousins, is more like in their 50s and 60s, because the people that are a lot younger have left.
G: And where, like, are they in North Carolina?
A: No, there's some in Germany, there's some in Spain, there's one in Italy, and I think that's it.
G: And did they leave for the same reason?
A: Yeah, they left for the same stability/instability reasons as I did, it's just a really unsustainable place to live in right now, it's just, there's no way with the food, the food issue and the income issue, it's just not sustainable.
G: I remember like, in middle school, learning about all the instability and, like, learning about the inflation there, and how like the inflation was ridiculous, like.
A: Yeah, it is, I think the rate of inflation there is the highest in the world.
G: Alright, well I think this is a good place to end it, did you want to share anything else that may have come up that I didn't ask you about?
[00:39:40] A: I didn't talk, I wanted to talk to you a little bit more about the election process over there, and how it was, it was just, the election process over there, my parents would always, I remember getting up really early to go with my parents to vote, and they were always really excited to go do it because, you know, they wanted to do their, their job as citizens, which was to vote, but I remember one time we were going, it was, I don't remember the year of this election, but we were going down there, and there was a protest nearby, and that was one of the times where I've actually seen it, like, seen a protest, not, not a riot, but a protest that was like, really the only time where I've been close to what it, what it was like for people to go and protest, yeah.
G: How did you feel and like, how old were you?
A: It was scary, it was a lot of people, I was definitely younger, I was younger than 10 years old, but yeah I remember, I just remember just seeing like, a huge gathering of people. It was not too far away, it was probably like a block, maybe two blocks away, it was a huge mass, but yeah, it was like the one time where I really saw, like, what it was like to be in a… closer to a protest, ‘cause I was never actually in a protest, I never actually protested.
G: Did your parents ever protest?
A: No they didn’t, they didn't, it was mainly my grandparents that went to protests and stuff like that.
G: Did they go, like your parents, or not parents, grandparents, did they go protesting like in the 90s, or like into the 2000s?
A: No, it was mainly, ‘cause they never had, they never felt a reason to protest with previous government, that's not to say they were perfect, because every government, I think, ever since the 1940’s to now has been corrupt, so they’ve never actually been good institutions, but they didn't start doing it until 2009-2010, that's when they really started doing it.
G: And that was in protest during-
A: Chavez’s rule, yea.
[00:42:09] G: Yeah… Yeah, well this was very awesome, very enlightening to talk to you about, and I think we’re just gonna end it here. Thank you, Andrés.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
TRANSCRIBED BY: Gabriella Montes, March 22, 2023
EDITED BY: Gabriella Montes, April 5, 2023
Es: Transcripción
Gabriella: Ok, My name is Gabriella Montes. I am here with…
Andrés: Andrés.
Gabriella: And we are at my house. The time is 8:57 p.m., and today is March 14th 2023, and today we will be discussing Andrés’ migration journey from Venezuela to North Carolina, and yeah, are you consenting to this interview, Andrés?
Andrés: Yes [pause] I consent.
G: All right, so, if you want to just like start off and just say like your name, age, occupations, school, and all that kind of stuff.
[00:00:55] A: So my name is Andrés Jésus Cáceres Rodriguéz, I’m twenty years old, I turned twenty not too long ago on March 5th, I'm currently going to school at NC State, trying to get my degree in chemical engineering, my bachelor's degree in chemical engineering, and I've previously worked at a cabinet manufacturing company as a cabinet painter, so that was really good. That was my first real job, and right now I'm looking into getting an internship at Sherwin-Williams, engineering internship, so that's cool.
G: Awesome, okay, and can you tell just like a little bit more about yourself, and just like, briefly describe your connection to like, your migration journey and your heritage?
[00:02:30] A: so, I was born in a smaller subdivision in Caracas, so I was born in Chacao, which is – a lot of people say its Caracas, but it's like, technically not – it’s like two minutes away from the main city, so it's technically not Caracas, but it's so close that people still call it that. I was born in a small clinic, and I lived in my grandparents’ house for 9 years until I moved to – we moved to our own apartment, but, I was basically raised mainly by my grandparents ‘cause, my parents were always working. They were always out and doing their own thing, and my grandparents were always at home.
G: And, like, do you want to talk a little more about your relationship with your grandparents, was it like your mom's parents or your dad's parents?
A: It was my mom’s parents, so my dad's parents – they lived a little bit farther away and we got to see them like for family reunions and stuff like that but – it was mainly, I mainly lived around my mom's parents, and they're always very, very nice and very patient, because they certainly didn't have to do that for my parents, but the fact that they were still able to be there with us, and take care of us and take us to school it was, it was something that I'm sure my parents are very thankful for and I'm very thankful for it, ‘cause I got to spend more time with them, so yeah.
G: They were like a second set of parents for you, for like, the first, almost, ten years of your life?
A: Yea basically, they were always there for me, my grandpa was actually the one who… I was into sports when I was younger. I did baseball for five years, and I swam for 3 years, and he was always the one to take me to practice, he was always the one to, basically drive me around and I would always do stuff with him. Yeah, he was my main guy for like a really long time, so…
G: That's so sweet – and are those the grandparents – do they still like, visit you guys or do you still visit them?
A: Yea, so they actually still live here. They live in Miami right now, but they rotate six months in Miami, and six months here.
G: Ok, and they live with you guys, like, when they come here. Do they live with you guys for like a few months in the summer?
A: Yea, so, this past year they actually lived the whole six months, because my aunt, she wasn't really in a situation where she could have them. We welcomed them to our house because she couldn't, but it's usually… they usually live 3 months with my aunt, and 3 months with us.
G: Thats nice.
A: Yeah they… it's not really, Venezuela is not really in a suitable situation for them to go back.
G: Yeah, so, when was the last time they were there?
A: I wanna say 2020… definitely before the pandemic, that's for sure… tempted to say 2018, was the last time they were back there.
G: And then, those are your mom’s parents?
A: My mom’s parents, yeah.
G: And so, just for the recording, Andrés and I have been friends for like, I don't know, seven years, I think, and you’ve talked to me about your grandpa before, and is this the same grandpa that lived in Puerto Rico?
A: He is Puerto Rican.
G: Ok.
A: He is Puerto Rican.
G: Ok, and do you wanna expand on that a little more on that?
A: Sure, yea, so my grandpa, his mother was German and his father was Dominican, but they – during the second World War – my grandma, well my great grandma, my grandpa’s mom, she had to leave. She had to leave Germany, so she did, and she went to, Santo Domingo in the Dominican Republic, and then she met my grandpa’s dad there, and then they settled down in Puerto Rico, not long after, and that's where they had him. And then he lived there for, I’d say like, 2 years of his life, and then they moved to Puerto Rico – or sorry – they moved back to Santo Domingo, so he ended up living in Dominican Republic for, for a while and then, I can't remember exactly when he left to go to Venezuela, but it was – he was still young, he was still young.
G: And then, that's where he met your grandma?
A: My grandma, mhm, so he met my grandma… it's a funny story, he would go – he was really in love – he would go 12 hours to see her every weekend, like, ‘cause he was working at a research lab – I think it was a research lab – because he was a agriculture engineer, he did a lot of work with meat production and dairy production, and when he was off, he would drive 12 hours to go see her in Merida, ‘cause he was working – I can't remember where he was working – but I just know it was 12 hours away from where my grandma lived.
G: Yea.
A: Which was in a very small town close to the Andes, it was very small.
G: Oh wow, wow, ‘cause Merida is like in the northern part of-
A: Very close to Colombia, yea.
G: Wow, that's so cute, aw.
A: Yea, twelve hours…
G: Wow, so he’s dedicated!
A: He was dedicated!
G: Ok, so what was, to get back into like more about you, what was school like while you were in Venezuela?
[00:08:15] A: So I went to a private Catholic school, it’s called Santo Tomas de Villanueva, and I went there, from, I want to say right before first grade, – so what we call it over there is preparatorio – and I went there all the way up to 5th grade, which was right when I left, and that school, it really shaped me, like, I'm not necessarily the most religious person today, but the values it instilled in me, I think school had a lot to do with that. They had a lot of core values, that we were exposed to everyday, basically, because we had a lot of classes that dealt with values and family and stuff like that.
G: And is that like, common for kids in Venezuela to go to private Catholic schools or?
A: It is more common for kids to go to private schools, because public schools over there don't really function that well, and they’re no longer – it's not like here where you have a public school system, its kinda like, you have several schools scattered around. It's mainly more common for people to go to private schools, and private schools over there – back when I was still there – they were not that expensive, so people with middle to lower income could still afford putting their kids in private school.
G: So like families who had kids, it was typically like they were either going to private Catholic schools or just private schools?
A: Yea, pretty much.
G: I guess like, do you want to talk a little more about like, the friends you met, ‘cause you said it was like very formative for you, so do you want to talk more about any teachers that were memorable to you?
A: Oh yea, oh yea, so I still regularly communicate with a lot of the friends I made over there, yea we – I like to play videogames, and they play a lot of the same video games that I do, and so that's one of the main ways I keep in contact, you know, just playing video games when I have time, whenever I’m not doing schoolwork, I’m probably just talking or playing with them. As for teacher, my mom actually still keeps in contact with one of the professors over there, who still – she kind of asks about me from time to time and I talked to her through – I still don't know why I don't have her number – but whenever my mom, whenever she gets a message from her, she'll show me, and I'll respond but –
G: It's always through your mom?
A: It's always through my mom.
G: Yea.
A: Just haven't gotten around to – there's really no reason as to why, I just haven't gotten her, in contact with her, personally – but yeah I’ve gotten into contact with her from time to time. Whenever she reaches out – she was my fifth grade, third and fifth grade math teacher – and she always said I was good with numbers and she thought I would go into like something related to numbers and I did, so.
G: Does she know that you're currently studying chemical engineering?
A: Yea she knows, yea I talked – we had a conversation about it four months ago,
G: Really?
A: Yeah, that I was in a chemical engineering program here.
G: And like, what was like, her reaction?
A: She was – she told my mom, ‘cause I had to I had to go back to what I was doing, but she was telling my mom like how proud she was of the achievements, and the fact that I've been able to find a program and be successful here after after moving. She was very proud that she met me and had such a good time with me as her student, and to see me like be successful somewhere else was really cool for her to see. She was proud, she was proud.
[00:13:17] G: That's awesome, awe, ok, so I guess to kinda like, take a bit of a sharp left turn, were you ever aware of the instability in Venezuela, and with the riots that were going on, ‘cause, when exactly did you leave Venezuela?
A: I left in October of 2014, and the riots had been going on for about two years, or maybe even more actually, but I remember my family constantly like, talking about the fact there's a riot close to where I went to school, semi-often, you know, you could see a little bit of smoke in the distance, you could see it above the treeline, you could see smoke, you couldn't hear anything, but you could see the smoke, and my parents usually knew that, “oh, there's something going on over there like,” ‘cause it's not usually normal just seeing smoke over the tree line.
G: Yeah.
A: So, yeah, so, those have been going on for a while.
G: Did it ever, like, interfere with your school week, like did you ever have school canceled because of those riots?
A: I don't, I don't actually think school was ever canceled because of the riots, I think maybe once, but, you know, they were mainly in the city. I was a little bit farther away from the capital city, I was like 5 minutes away, so they were mainly over there in the very-
G: Ohhh
A: -populated, like super dense areas, ‘cause where I went to school, it was still a really dense area, but it was more-
G: Definitely away from the center of it all,
A: And it was a little bit of a, there was more money in the area, so people didn't really go there to riot.
G: And did you like, so with the riots basically just being like so close to your school, did you ever have any kind of like, first-hand experience or exposure to them, besides seeing the smoke from the tree line?
A: No but I did have other experiences, not in school. I had seen them before, I saw them when I was going to my other grandparents house, my dad’s parents. They live in a little bit of a more unsafe area, where a lot of those things would tend to happen.
G: What area is that?
A: It's El Valle. It's a little bit of more, I guess, poor area, where they lived, and that's where a lot of those things would happen, a lot of the riots would happen there. I remember one time we were going over there just for a family reunion to see my grandparents, and it was going down, it was really going down, yea I was… the police were posted up in a line formation with their shields,
G: Oh my gosh.
A: And the people were in the – what are they called?
G: Goggles?
A: No not goggles, they were like, balaclavas or something?
G: Ohh yea yea.
A: Yea, everyone was wearing those, to protect themselves from the smoke bombs, cause they would use tear gas on them, the military or the police would use tear gas on them, and it was only that one time that I really gotta see it, that was close.
G: How did you feel, how old were you?
A: So, it was in 2012, or 2013, the year before I left, so I was 10, I was almost 11.
G: And how did you like feel in that moment, that must’ve been scary, was it right outside?
A: It was not outside my grandparent’s place, it was a little bit off to the side, closer to a mall that they had close. So there was a lot of traffic, so we kind of were forced to look at it for a while and see everyone like, see the chaos pretty much, it was pretty chaotic.
G: Wow.
A: But I was never physically in one of those. I do remember my grandparents, they felt compelled to go to the protests, they weren’t riots, they were more like protests where people, you know, masses of people would gather and basically gather from one end of a really long avenue to another, and they did that to like raise awareness, and retaliate against the government. But it was never violent, it was more like a, you know just, a peaceful protest.
[00:18:40] G: Yeah. So in mentioning the protest, you said like, “raising awareness about what was going on in the government,” can you like describe more of what exactly was going on with the government?
A: So the government… Venezuela is incredibly corrupt. They steal, and they launder money, and they traffic a lot of drugs – they traffic drugs to the United States – they steal from the people, and they've cheated their way through every single election since they've been elected, since Chavez was elected in ‘99. I remember my parents, when Maduro got elected, it was like, they voted for the other candidate, I don't remember the other candidate, but whenever we got the news that Maduro had been elected, they weren't really surprised, they were kind of just like, “we really didn't want it to happen, but we're not surprised that it did.”
G: Yea.
A: Because it's just how the government operates, it's corrupt, and it's… it's just full of liars, so yeah in that regard, I've always been aware of the people in charge and how they are, and I've always been around it.
G: And how long, cause, it was Chavez, but now it's Maduro, right? So how long has he been in power?
A: He got elected, well he didn't get elected, presidency was passed down to him, because he was the vice president, and then-
G: From Chavez?
A: Yea, and then they had their elections, but they weren't really elections ‘cause he was gonna win anyways,
G: Yea.
A: So, they had their democratic elections after Chavez died from cancer back in 2013, he died, and then Maduro got elected, or he stepped into the presidency, that's when he became president.
G: So, he's been in power for almost 10 years now?
A: Yea, almost, I think yea.
G: Under the guise of, quote unquote, democracy.
A: Yea, under the guise of “democracy.”
[00:21:20] G: Wow, so that was around the same time you guys basically like, moved to the U.S. and, do you want to explain more on like, I know you already said when, it was like October 2014, so, why did you guys come to the specifically North Carolina, you could’ve gone anywhere else, why North Carolina?
A: Yeah, so, my parents had been talking to my aunt, who also lives in North Carolina, and she basically said that, you know, if we kind of wanted to break from the city, and the busy life, that Waxhaw – which is where she lived – would be a pretty drastic, but good change for us, and also the fact that, you know, she could give us a place to live at least until we got our bearings.
G: Yeah.
A: Yeah so we moved with her for about six months, she was always great to us, I'm really thankful for her and the time that she was able to give us, to get our bearings. And then we we moved to Indian Trail, but I think my parents decided to move here – they've been in the process of getting our documentation since 1999, which is when Chavez got elected, because my mom was like, “all right…” she really did not like him as a presidential candidate or as a president, so she kind of kick-started the process of getting all our papers and getting — well, getting their papers first, ‘cause I wasn't even in the picture in 1999, but the turning point, I think, for actually finishing out the process was 2012, which is when my mom really was like, cause it was kinda in the back of their minds in 1999 all the way through like 2010, they were kind of like, “stuff is good,” you know, my dad had a very stable job, my mom also had a stable job, so they kind of put it off, and they didn't really think about it, ‘cause they didn't think we were going to have to move. My mom still wanted to have that, just as a safeguard, and it wasn't until 2012, where she was like, “all right, we, we need to, we need to finish this.”
G: So when did, like, I'm not very well versed with the whole like, papers and documentation things, so when did like, your mom, get papers? So was it like the green card first or like?
A: So we had to, I actually don't don't know the order of things, but I do remember the day that they were finalized.
G: Yeah.
[00:23:45] A: I do remember going to the Embassy, US Embassy, we were there for
roughly 8 hours.
G: Yeah.
A: We were there maybe, maybe a little bit more, and we were waiting for our turn to, basically, ‘cause my parents had to talk to one of the Embassy agents, I don't really know what they're called, but, they had to sign documents and go through, like, the small interview process, and then they would be sworn in. They would have to take an oath to the United States, that's when I remember seeing like, our actual documents in their hand.
G: So it was all four of you guys at the same time?
A: Yea, it was all four of us.
G: And how old were…
A: I was ten.
G: So, like 2013?
A: Yep, it was, I think it might have been right before, a little bit before my birthday… that time is kind of, I don't really remember dates that well from that time, but, it was definitely between the end of 2013 and October 2014. It was really close actually I think, it was really close to October 2014.
G: It was like, just in time.
A: Yea, it was just in time.
G: Ok, yea those Embassy and like, naturalization process takes..
A: They take a while, yeah.
[00:25:40] G: Can you talk a little more about your adjustment to your new life in North Carolina, so like, in terms of like, making new friends, going to school, all that kind of stuff.
A: So I went to, when I moved to Waxhaw, I went to Cuthbertson, which is a predominantly white middle school, so I didnt, I’d say I kinda struggled to make friends there, ‘cause I didn't know the language yet, but I did meet this one Colombian kid who was really, we were good friends until I moved away. His name is Federico and he was cool, but making friends was hard at Cuthbertson, and I'd say I really only had him as my friend, and it was, it was I think, the most difficult part of it for me was the fact that I was always kind of high achieving… I was always like, I was kind of like, a little bit rough on myself if I didn't excel in academics, which I did not at Cuthbertson, because of the language barrier.
G: Yea.
A: Yea like I, it was like-
G: They just kinda threw you in there.
A: Yea, they kinda just threw me in there, which I really had no other choice, ‘cause I had to go to school, but I didn't know the language and that was kinda, that I was just really hard on myself for, for a time because, I wasn't used to… I just have really high standards for myself and underperformance is something I couldn't really handle very well back then, and I wasn't really aware of how to handle, so I'd say that was one of the harder things, making friends was also really hard, and then just communication, was just, I just really wanted to talk to my professor, and my teacher and classmates, but it was just wasn't possible for like a few months, and there was also the, like, there's also a little bit of bullying, from like, like two kids. I didn't really know what they were saying, at the time, but I could tell they were like talking about me, but, overall I think I got pretty lucky, actually, going to Cuthbertson, ‘cause it was a really nice school, I liked it, it was just hard at the beginning, it was just something really huge, it was just a really huge change, going from-
G: It's a hard change.
A: A large Catholic school to a school in a completely different language and completely different country. I was with my friends, I've been with my friends from the school in Venezuela, from before first grade all the way up to 5th grade.
G: Yeah.
A: So, I didn't really have that support system anymore, I didn't have those friends that have been with me for 6 years.
G: Yeah.
A: You know, I was with a completely new group of people and new teachers and new faces and completely new language, so, that was… that was hard to adjust to but, yea.
G: And then, so, you went to Cuthbertson for your first year of middle school right?
A: Mhm, well I left Cuthbertson halfway through the year, and I went to Sun Valley, which is where I met you, about… I wanna say like, a month after I moved to Sun Valley is when I met you.
G: I remember it was the summer before seventh grade.
A: Summer before seventh grade?
G: Yea.
A: Well I remember seeing you in the hallways, and… but maybe we didn't have a real conversation until the summer.
G: Yea, yea, and then, so like, and that was like finally some stability for you, and like, you graduated from Sun Valley middle, so, talk more about… if it was nice to have that stability.
A: So yeah we were finally done moving. My parents had like, “I think we can settle down here for a while,” and we ended up settling down, and I stayed in Sun Valley until 8th grade, which was when I graduated middle school, so that was nice. It was nice to finally have some sense of belonging and in a new place, ‘cause at Cuthbertson, I barely got to adjust, and even when I left I still didn't feel like, fully adjusted, but then I got to Sun Valley and it was that same process all over again. At least at that point I kind of had the language to kind of-
G: Yeah.
A: – Kinda had it, but not fully, but I could at least make friends and communicate with people and communicate any concerns to my, my teachers and stuff like that, but it was the point where I was like, okay we’re just gonna settle down and be fine, yeah.
G: Do you have any like, moments in middle school after Cuthbertson, where, like… did you have any friends in Sun Valley where it was like, “okay they're like, a bit of a godsend, thank God, I have a friend who's gonna look out for me,” or even like teachers too?
A: Yea, I would say you were definitely one of those people for me, in seventh grade, I definitely saw you as a, as a person I could rely on, in terms of other people, I'd say, I had really good science eighth grade Professor – I don't know if you remember him – Mr. Barron, he was great.
G: Mr. Barron…
A: Mr. Barron.
G: I remember the name, was it for the AIG team?
A: No I was only in the AIG for English.
G: Ok.
A: Yea I only had AIG for English, but he was great, he was always like, super friendly and nice and understanding, and yea I think that's it.
[00:33:10] G: Yeah ok, well I kind of wanted like, to backtrack ‘cause, I don't know if you mentioned it in the recording, or during the recording, but it was before the recording. Do you think you can talk a little bit more about the CLAP program, and what you know about it and what your friends have told you about it?
A: Yeah, so, this program, the one that Gaby's mentioning right now, is a mitigation program for the people of Venezuela, so it's trying to deal with the fact that food items are very scarce, your basic necessity items are really scarce, so back in 2016, Maduro established a program to try to mitigate, quote unquote, mitigate the humanitarian issue, which is the food problem in Venezuela. And it's basically a little box of a protein, but most of the time it's going to be rice, pasta, any sort of bean, usually it's black beans, but it's usually for lower income families. They get them once every 2 months. So, it's definitely not something that is sustainable, that program isn't sustainable for people getting a box of that size every 2 months is not the solution to the problem, and this problem has been going on for, ever since I left. The problem’s been getting worse, but it was always present, ever since 2010 is when it really started. But, in 2014 is when it started getting really bad, where you couldn't find your, you know, basic need items like, toilet paper or chicken or rice – rice was especially hard to find – and yeah, you, I remember, I just remember seeing really, really long lines at the supermarket like, huge like probably 50 meter, maybe 100 meters lines.
G: Yeah.
A: Just of people just waiting to get food.
G: Yeah, and like basic necessities.
A: Yeah, I don't know if you've seen videos like that, of people, in Colombia, like, people line up for food.
G: Yeah, it's ridiculous and sometimes like, stores will close while people are in line and they won't get their stuff.
A: They won't get their food, no.
G: That is, yeah, that is not very sustainable for a country.
A: No it’s not.
[00:36:05] G: Before I forget, do you have any family left in Venezuela?
A: I do, so, I have some of my cousins, It's mainly my, my dad's side still over there in Venezuela, I have some aunts, great aunts, cousins… they're still all, they're scattered around the country, some of them are in Maracaibo, some of them are in Caracas, and some of them are closer to the coast, but I still have a lot of people over there.
G: And do you know, like, do you like communicate with them often to know, like, how they're doing?
A: I communicate mainly with my cousins, because a lot of my family members over there don't really have phones, or they don't really have social media like that so, I mainly communicate with my cousins. My closer cousins. And they, I always saw them during our family reunions, so I've been, kept in contact with them because of, mainly because they have social media and they have a cell phone and they're just closer.
G: Ok, and the same thing with like, your friends, you just keep in contact with them through like, social media and video games?
A: Yes I do, a lot of like, a lot of them, it's been real easy to keep in contact with a lot of them, because they're, they're a lot younger than the, most of my family is, over there, there's a lot of the family that I have left over there is a little bit older, they're probably in like their 50s or 60s.
G: Even your cousins?
A: No my, everyone except for my cousins, is more like in their 50s and 60s, because the people that are a lot younger have left.
G: And where, like, are they in North Carolina?
A: No, there's some in Germany, there's some in Spain, there's one in Italy, and I think that's it.
G: And did they leave for the same reason?
A: Yeah, they left for the same stability/instability reasons as I did, it's just a really unsustainable place to live in right now, it's just, there's no way with the food, the food issue and the income issue, it's just not sustainable.
G: I remember like, in middle school, learning about all the instability and, like, learning about the inflation there, and how like the inflation was ridiculous, like.
A: Yeah, it is, I think the rate of inflation there is the highest in the world.
G: Alright, well I think this is a good place to end it, did you want to share anything else that may have come up that I didn't ask you about?
[00:39:40] A: I didn't talk, I wanted to talk to you a little bit more about the election process over there, and how it was, it was just, the election process over there, my parents would always, I remember getting up really early to go with my parents to vote, and they were always really excited to go do it because, you know, they wanted to do their, their job as citizens, which was to vote, but I remember one time we were going, it was, I don't remember the year of this election, but we were going down there, and there was a protest nearby, and that was one of the times where I've actually seen it, like, seen a protest, not, not a riot, but a protest that was like, really the only time where I've been close to what it, what it was like for people to go and protest, yeah.
G: How did you feel and like, how old were you?
A: It was scary, it was a lot of people, I was definitely younger, I was younger than 10 years old, but yeah I remember, I just remember just seeing like, a huge gathering of people. It was not too far away, it was probably like a block, maybe two blocks away, it was a huge mass, but yeah, it was like the one time where I really saw, like, what it was like to be in a… closer to a protest, ‘cause I was never actually in a protest, I never actually protested.
G: Did your parents ever protest?
A: No they didn’t, they didn't, it was mainly my grandparents that went to protests and stuff like that.
G: Did they go, like your parents, or not parents, grandparents, did they go protesting like in the 90s, or like into the 2000s?
A: No, it was mainly, ‘cause they never had, they never felt a reason to protest with previous government, that's not to say they were perfect, because every government, I think, ever since the 1940’s to now has been corrupt, so they’ve never actually been good institutions, but they didn't start doing it until 2009-2010, that's when they really started doing it.
G: And that was in protest during-
A: Chavez’s rule, yea.
[00:42:09] G: Yeah… Yeah, well this was very awesome, very enlightening to talk to you about, and I think we’re just gonna end it here. Thank you, Andrés.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
TRANSCRIBED BY: Gabriella Montes, March 22, 2023
EDITED BY: Gabriella Montes, April 5, 2023
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-1017 -- Cáceres Rodríguez, Andrés Jésus.
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, interviewer Gabriella Montes learns about Venezuela’s recent history as experienced by her long-time friend, Andrés Cáceres. He describes the first ten years of his life in his city of origin, Caracas, Venezuela. He explains details about his family relationships, home life and school life as he grew up in the economic turmoil occurring in Venezuela since the 1940s. He shares his experience being a new student, his struggle in school in North Carolina, and how difficult this overall adjustment was. Andrés recounts that despite this struggle in the U.S., as well as Venezuela, he misses his home country, and mentions some of the happier moments he had back home and the friends and experiences he’s made here.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-03-14
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29364">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
R1017_Audio.mp3
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/6f6508d06504d02f1034d9606934f16c.mp3
ec48c8df13c2da71458999516f92b34b
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/f4b8c853791f0f0d79445be8a9e95095.pdf
84c7a3b7eb0fc85d495ad357e7b7c0df
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-1016
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
Fecha
2023-04-03
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Roditti, Niccolo Abel.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Directors, NGOs and institutes
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1996
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Non-binary
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Guayaquil -- Guayas -- Ecuador
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Durham -- Durham County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-79.8868741 -2.1900563),1996,1;POINT(-78.9018053 35.996653), ,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Prause, Myri.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Niccolo Roditti, who was born in 1996 in Guayaquil, Ecuador and moved to the U.S. at age three, is the Assistant Director of the LGBTQ Youth Center of Durham, part of the LGBTQ Center of Durham. Niccolo discusses conflicts and other intersections of queerness and traditional Ecuadorian culture. In addition to describing the experiences of queer people in Ecuador versus in various parts of the U.S., they explore their own simultaneous navigation of their queer and Latine identities, especially in the context of their family. They came out to their parents and later their extended family despite facing homophobia/heteronormativity and machismo, as well as the pressure to maintain the image of a “Catholic, traditional Ecuadorian family”. Connected to that, Niccolo talks about collectivism in Ecuadorian culture, and in queer spaces. They also discuss how socioeconomic status relates to queer Latine experiences. Additionally, Niccolo examines the presence and representation of queer and Latine people in a number of spaces and contexts, including educational institutions, media, the traditionally gendered Spanish language, and drag, in which they perform.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Niccolo Roditti by Myri Prause, 03 April 2023, R-1016, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29361
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Community and social services and programs; Culture; Family; Gender; Identity
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Directores de ONG e institutos
Es: Género de entrevistado
No binario
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Niccolo Roditti, quien nació en 1996 en Guayaquil, Ecuador y se mudó a los EE.UU. a los tres años, es el Director Asistente del Centro Juvenil LGBTQ de Durham, parte del Centro LGBTQ de Durham. Niccolo discute conflictos y otras intersecciones de la cultura ecuatoriana tradicional y la comunidad queer. Además de describir las experiencias de gente queer en Ecuador en comparación con varias partes de los EE.UU., el explora su propia navegación simultánea de sus identidades queer y latine, especialmente en el contexto de su familia. Salió del clóset ante sus padres y luego su familia extendida a pesar de enfrentar homofobia/heteronormatividad y machismo, así como la presión de mantener la imagen de una “familia ecuatoriana católica y tradicional”.** Conectado a esto, Niccolo habla sobre el colectivismo en la cultura ecuatoriana, y en espacios queer. También discute cómo el estatus socioeconómico se relaciona con las experiencias queer latines. Además, Niccolo examina la presencia y representación de gente queer y latine en una serie de espacios y contextos, incluyendo instituciones educativas, los medios, el idioma español tradicionalmente género-binario, y el drag, en el que participa. **Esta cita es traducida del inglés.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Niccolo Roditti por Myri Prause, 03 April 2023, R-1016, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Cultura; Familia; Genero; Identidad; Programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Myri Prause: Today is the 3rd of April, 2023. My name is Myri Prause. I am interviewing--
Niccolo Roditti: Niccolo Roditti--
MP: --at the LGBTQ Center of Durham. First of all, could you introduce who you are, and what you see as the most important parts of your identity?
NR: Yeah, so… hi, my name is Niccolo Roditti; my pronouns are they/he; and I am a non-binary Latine person, and also neurodivergent. I guess those are the three salient identities that are really important to me. Obviously, they seem important to the rest of the world too, because those are things that you now are expected to hear, or is a more generalized norm in terms of what to say to someone about who you are.
MP: Could you tell me about how you moved with your parents from Ecuador to the U.S. when you were three?
NR: Yeah. Being born in Guayaquil, Ecuador…don’t really remember much [laughs]. But what was interesting was that moving from Ecuador to the United States at three was really because of what was happening in the United States was opportunity from Bill Clinton’s policies of immigration allowing there to be applications passed from mother to daughter, which was my mom’s case. My dad didn’t come with us initially; he actually came four years later--
MP: Okay.
NR: --because his application was stalled. But again, we left because of the financial institution collapse of Ecuador / political instability, and a lot of teen gang violence. All of that in Guayaquil led to the decision of coming to the United States.
MP: Have you talked with your mom at all about how it was for her to come to the U.S. initially with you but not with her husband?
NR: Yeah, I think that goes into the context of their relationship, and my mom being kind of a Type A person. She was adaptable to it because she was very much “I want to do this in my way”, so I think, in that sense, she was more of the go-getter in that relationship. For her, it felt natural for her to come here, and to make it feel like it was her job to do everything. That woman, she is a role model. She learned English while she was working at an airport job, and just had a dictionary. She would work three jobs, and then started temp jobs in some financial institutions, and then my dad eventually came. My mom really worked her way up, learning English, doing some jobs, and then setting up some ground for when my dad came.
MP: How did your life eventually lead you to here, the LGBTQ Center of Durham? What has your life been like between when you moved from Ecuador and now?
NR: That’s a really good question. I think Rhode Island was interesting, where we first moved, because I went to a charter school primarily, and I was learning English. And so now, reflecting back on that time, I think it was a really good time when I learned a lot about acceptance. I went to a charter school that really had a lot of principles about equality. The assistant director and the director were queer. A lot of that stuff was just normal to me, but not necessarily in the forefront.
Coming to North Carolina, it’s kind of its own story as to what leads me to here. I grew up in Charlotte, graduated, was closeted. That made me not want to leave the state but to go somewhere else. NC State was affordable, and I knew it had a good reputation. There, I already had this thirst for wanting to know “why?” for things. A lot of times, it was injustices--growing up, not knowing why certain things were the way they were. At NC State, I did International Studies and Psychology. I really loved learning how all those things melded into what I wanted to do, so I worked in immigrant rights, I worked in foreign policy stuff with Latin America. I was interested in always being able to figure out “how can communities do better?” That led me to doing AmeriCorps after I graduated, and that was in Durham. That’s when I really fell in love with Durham, and the work that Durham does, as an org. I would say that I have such a knowledge of how Durham works, with non-profits and city governments. I taught in laundromats--literacy to Black and brown kids, through Book Harvest--and I did stuff with Student U. Overall, I was getting really good knowledge of what community looks like, not just for my age but for the actual communities I was helping.
Unfortunately, the pandemic happened. My main job I was doing at that time was with the Domestic Violence Center, doing education prevention with youth. And all those things made me apply to Vanderbilt’s Master’s program for Community Development and Action. I got in; I left [Durham]. And then two years later, after I graduated, I came back, because my boss--and this is what they say: networking is so important--my boss now was a coworker of mine when I left that center. And because he knew I worked really well with youth--we already had that work style--I was referred to apply to the job. It honestly just fell into my hands, which was great.
MP: Speaking of Vanderbilt, in our previous discussion you talked about some of the differences that you see between the acceptance of Latinx people and immigrants, and also LGBTQ people, in Tennessee versus in Durham and other parts of North Carolina. Could you talk a bit about that right now?
NR: I think that’s one thing that--first, it’s just so interesting how norms work. If we were not in the South, and we had less of the geography of the South, then all those--no one knows what Durham was; North Carolina and Tennessee probably would be clumped together. Similarly, with the hate bills; on a state level we’ve had our own introductions of bills that are really anti-LGBTQ. What’s interesting though is that, I think, North Carolina’s history--and this is probably just me being a North Carolinian--each region has really rich history. I think that’s because it’s on the east coast; it’s older; there’s not a huge mountain range that blocks you to get to the next state. All that to say to that there’s been more time here; there’s been more diversity here first. If we think about the immigration population, there’s a huge boom now of Latin folks going to Tennessee, like you would see in the mid-2000s in North Carolina--and you’re still seeing here. All of that to say that I think that all influences how fast culture has gone. Again, you see that with more time, more acceptance here, more established communities that have done the work.
When I went to Tennessee, also, the geography doesn’t help. The regions here are so interconnected within two to three hours. Over there, there’s only three major cities, and they’re all three hours from each other. And then Chattanooga, which is at the bottom. I think that isolation allows there to be these pockets of great acceptance, like there is here, for LGBTQ folks, and Latine folks, but when you go into the rural areas, it’s such a well-known thing--if you go thirty minutes outside of the city, it’s completely different. In Tennessee you will get, very much, stares. It’s really uncomfortable. I remember, once, I went hiking during the pandemic, an hour and a half outside of Nashville, and it was like a scene from a movie. You know when you open the door, and everyone does that, like, ‘skrrt’ back, and looks? It was so interesting to feel that, because--you get stares in North Carolina, too; I’m not gonna lie. But that type of--these people are acting straight out of a movie, in terms of how uncomfortable they felt, just with the presence of us. It was really strange. And there’s more of that over there, as you see, with everything going on. But again, I think that goes with institutional history: education there; what does that look like? what is its history before? all that. And why those three cities are completely different; that’s another thing. Nashville is really an interesting place in terms of where it’s set. I think geography and state history has a lot to do with why they’re different. Because the similarity is just that they’re southern and there are queer people there.
MP: Somewhat connected to what you just said, you mentioned earlier that, for a while, you were closeted. Can you, if you’re willing to, talk about when you decided to come out of the closet and how it was to make that decision? And what it felt like afterward?
NR: Honestly, I think this is interesting because, for me personally, being neurodivergent with ESL stuff as a kid, I think to me it was a blessing even though it caused a lot of struggles. I was learning about a lot of things, and while doing that I was able to grow up and use television and media as a way to learn a lot of norms. Like I said, in Rhode Island, I was--not sheltered, but I was just taught in a different way. There wasn’t a lot of issues being presented to me. I also was dealing with a lot of emotional strife at home, with my family.
So, as a kid, I was just growing up, soaking in a lot of information, and then when I came to North Carolina I was bullied a lot in the sixth grade, which was the point of, also, self-awareness for me. I was being told that--being younger, I was a year younger from my age in school, and so my voice didn’t drop. I was also the smartest kid. I was put in an all-boys class--it was a test they were doing where, of the three different levels of class instruction you could be in, I was in the middle, and anyone who was not honors or not standard was put in an all-boys, all-girls, or standard, as a test to see if that made a difference. That also made it worse, because I was in a room full of all boys, and I was the smartest kid, and also feminine, and therefore taking up space in a way that other people were like, “okay, you’re queer”, and I was like, “what is that?” So, I think because I came from it as a place of other people telling me a lot, I was freaked out. I now felt like there was a mask being put on that I didn’t really understand why. And at the same time--by that time I already knew there were norms about not being feminine from my dad. And not really understanding why, but knowing that he didn’t like that.
I think there was a lot of these--again, not understanding what was going on, but in eighth grade, “The Real World: D.C.”, that season there was a hot guy, and he was bi, and I was like, “holy shit, this person is telling me that they like women and like men.” And it fluctuated in the show, how he was really into women in the beginning and then it turned into him really liking men. I think that justification of…it doesn’t matter what spectrum or what day you like--just knowing that this person was involved with two different genders at that time. I was like, “that was really cool.” So, from there, I was able to start watching MTV more; I watched a lot of shows like Teen Wolf, which had a lot of queerness in it. Internally, I was building such a big repertoire of media and culture, of what queerness meant to me. But I knew that there was this line of threshold that I didn’t want to cross as a high school student, because I knew that it could have led to me being kicked out, or it could have led to my parents not giving me as much freedom as I had as a kid, or financial support. So, I waited, and knew--it was so interesting, I had this plan, knowing that I had to go to grad school, and there was a point where I would finally live my life. And then, once I went to college, I already had come out to a group of kids in high school, because I joined theater my tenth-grade year. That really helped because, I think coming out to a few amount--and I also went to a very person-of-color-heavy high school, and queer-person-of-color-heavy high school. I now realize that was a privilege, knowing what the education system is like in the United States. It was really, really a blessing to go to a place that was completely accepting of my brownness and also of my queerness. It was really awesome. But again, there was this four-year period of…I was very involved; my parents thought it was an extracurricular; everyone in the school in general--there was not that much homophobia; trans folks were already socially transitioned and were living as any other student in every grade.
So, going to college, I didn’t realize that there was all of these, like, “oh, I have been living this inconsistent life”, and the closetedness really was hard. I didn’t realize how much it was weighing on me because I had such a great high school experience. I came out within a semester at college, so once it was on my mind again--I used to get really afraid of the consequences, and I think in college I was able to realize there was a distance, and I knew that my parents really needed a certain distance. I think, intrinsically, I knew my timeline, into when I needed to come out in a more safe way. And I came out through email [laughs]. Everyone was like, “that’s so insincere!” and I was like, “you don’t know my parents. They are so dramatic as people that they’re gonna appreciate that they didn’t have a chance to say whatever they wanted, on their mind, when they initially found out. Later on, like a month later, they were like, “you were right.” So, that’s how I was able to transition out of being closeted into being open at NC State.
MP: Thank you for sharing that. There are a lot of follow-up questions I could ask at this point, but I’d like to go back to your parents. You mentioned that a lot of your ideas about norms regarding masculinity, and femininity, were very heavily influenced by your father; and when we talked before, you mentioned specifically that your father was a link to Ecuadorian norms and especially machismo. Could you talk about that?
NR: Yeah, that’s a really good linkage that you had in terms of our past conversation, especially with my brother, and how I see it now more, how it’s totally real. With me, I think it’s interesting that my dad didn’t necessarily want to come here. It’s interesting how you see a culture within a person who’s very privileged and saw a lot of privileges within that culture. Coming here, and seeing a child who is representing a lot of mixture of cultures and schooling and language, as a kid, and him being like, “this isn’t okay, that’s not okay, this isn’t okay.” I think what’s interesting was that that made me feel very isolated as a person, because I knew I wasn’t necessarily a White American, but as I got older and more people started doing things like him, especially the Latin guys, it got harder to be around them. I was a skater kid, an emo with a bunch of Latin skater kids, from like 6th to 9th, 10th grade. But then the norms of being macho, and not going to the smart classes, and not necessarily taking school clearly, or getting involved with a bunch of older folks who may be doing drugs, or whatever the case is; each one had their own situation. My paths and who I was in terms of how I represented myself and also the ways that I thought about education, the way I wanted to succeed, did not match up the way masculinity was being presented to so many Latin men of color. My dad, I think, represented that.
There’s been a healing of me reclaiming that through my own queerness, and my queer family I have that’s Latin--my chosen queer family. I think that’s interesting because my dad’s representation really was a denial for such a long time, but re-finding that for myself now, and seeing that my dad is going through his own change in his own masculinity, and that my brother has a healthier version of my dad’s masculinity, you see that it’s more reassuring now than what it was. I think, before, it was definitely a big obstacle in feeling completely whole within my queerness and Latinidad, which a lot of people still have a struggle with. Like my cousin: she’s the same age as me, and she hasn’t been able to leave Charlotte; she has two kids; and she’ll say that she still feels this big resentment toward Latin culture because of the experiences she had, too. And me realizing our only different experience is that I’ve left Charlotte, I’ve found my queer chosen family, and a lot of them are Latin. So, it’s interesting also to see how my cousin has been stuck in her own ways of feelings toward the culture, and a lot of that also dealing with masculinity and how it has denied her, as a Latin woman, certain things too. Yeah, machismo is definitely a big part of feeling identified, which I think we’ll go into later in the interview. That’s probably why it’s really hard to figure out “what does queerness look like in Ecuador?”, because everyone’s trying to adapt to the norm, which is still pretty rigid and centralized on masculinity.
MP: Thank you. Going off that, can you talk a bit more about the norms in Ecuador, and, based on your experience--I know you don’t remember living there, I assume, before you were three--but, I think you mentioned you did visit Ecuador--
NR: Yeah.
MP: --and so, based on that experience, how would you describe to someone who has not been there the difference between norms in the U.S. and in Ecuador?
NR: Yeah. I think, also, Facebook has helped, because my dad has a huge family, and so I think, to me, it’s like I’ve always lived there, because I’ve seen all the different families and how they’re all in different classes of economic status. And I would say that, in general, the norms--it’s really centered around family, going to school and then getting your own job; a lot of it is based off things that you should do to establish a good life for yourself, or what is seen as a good life. That involves, usually, a private Catholic school, because public education there is not as funded as it is in the U.S., or there’s a lot of cracks in the systems, or it’s viewed as low-income; there’s a lot of classism involved with that. I think as soon as you say that, you’re like, “Catholic school, bingo! There’s a huge religion portion to it.” And the schools that they’re going to. There’s also a dual-language thing now. Private schools don’t have to be just Catholic anymore; there’s English/Spanish dual enrollment schools there. So, there’s other types of private schools there now, in Ecuador. And I think that’s one thing that’s interesting, that when my cousins have been growing up, they’ve been seeing the change, and have been told what it’s been like. It’s gotten very Americanized over there, but not necessarily the family stuff. So, I will definitely say, again, family is first. And maintaining the image of the family. That means putting on masks, or sacrificing parts of yourself. I say that to say that it’s so interesting that--Facebook again is a good example--Ecuadorians, specifically my dad’s Ecuadorian family--there’s maybe sixty people I’m talking about when I say “my dad’s family”--
MP: Oh, wow.
NR: Yeah, and he was the youngest of ten. All of his older brothers and sisters had children that were his age, so their children are my age, and some of them already have children. So, a lot of people are on Facebook, and there’s still a lot of--one is that my dad says “maricón” all the time. It’s such a slang to say the f-word in Spanish, just like we say, “hey, bitch.” Even as he says it, it doesn’t--but that is…let’s just start there. And a lot of feminized words in slang are still used, like when your wife is telling you something to do. My dad is the one who always held these masculine tropes. He would be like, “oh, don’t be a mandarina!”, don’t be a mandarin orange. Basically, being squishable. Don’t let your woman assert over you. It’s interesting, because my dad as a person, definitely in jokes and the ways that people navigate it--he was funny, but it was always, “let’s poke around the image of what you’re doing that isn’t Ecuadorian, and let’s make fun of it.” That is a lot of things that are family-bound, but also, in general, that’s what humor is like in a lot of families, which is why there’s so much resentment in the kids. It’s this “let’s poke fun at what isn’t us”, because there’s a strength to that. But also, when your kids become more than just what you’ve imagined, that’s when it gets this weird, tricky part. I see that with certain of my cousins that don’t have the best relationships with their parents, some who’ve left Ecuador and now live in the U.S., and others who maintain those norms.
MP: Once again, there are a lot of questions I could ask at this point, but I’d like to go back to Catholicism, which you mentioned has a lot of influence in Ecuador. And you were also just talking about a sort of image of a proper family. How do you think that Catholicism has influenced what that image is, and also the acceptance of LGBTQ folks in Ecuador?
NR: I think the image one in Catholicism is definitely there. We can talk about the queerness one, because it’s just not talked about. It’s still these very big institutional dogmas in Catholicism where it’s like, “it’s not right.” Those who maybe are sixty-plus, that generation will not even--if they weren’t already accepting, there’s not that much room for them. The people my parents’ age, in terms of LGBTQ, that’s where it depends on how religious we’re talking about. Right now, it’s kind of the same as the U.S. But when it comes to just in general, I recently have come out to my whole family on Facebook, and even my parents were shocked. It was the complete opposite of what they thought would happen, but I think it’s because I waited and I had the language and words to describe what I was doing. That was a big shock, for a lot of us. The whole thing of protecting the image and the family was so big that my parents brought that anxiety into me, of like, “this thing will break your dad’s relationship with his whole family.” It’s so interesting how the norm becomes its own fear. It’s its own monster because you go to church, or--my parents, we never went to church; we only went to church when I had communion and then confirmation, which was in eighth grade. Or when they fought. It goes back to this image of--even if you aren’t the most religious person, for some reason there’s this whole thing of like, “well, the closer we want to be to this image of who the good family is, we’re gonna be the closest to Catholic ideals.” I think, because my parents really, really wanted to showcase that, because of a bunch of stuff that was not that at home--knowing how radical and open my parents were, I now really am starting to process why they were like that. They were chasing this image that involved a lot of Catholic, homophobic understandings of life…that didn’t necessarily influence them at all, but for some reason with me--and now I’ve really understood--it was this mixture of, yes, some overall LGBTQ…internalized homophobic ideals, really clouded in masculinity, but that mixed in with this chasing of what an ideal family looked like, and my mom needing to comfort my dad’s machismo in that ideal. It led to them being like, “your queerness is an issue, because we won’t focus on it but when things are bad we’re gonna focus on it, because we need to as tight-knit of a family, as tight-kit of this Catholic, traditional Ecuadorian family, as you can be.” But I think, in general, you’re seeing a lot of families starting to just not give a shit about that anymore, quite frankly. And I think you’re seeing a lot more interesting things pop up. I don’t know if there’s a word for it; just more interesting, because I think things are becoming more real. You’re seeing a lot more truth coming out now in a lot of different families.
MP: Going off that, you said that your parents--when you came out to your whole family on Facebook, what they thought would happen was different from what did happen. Could you explain what exactly did happen? People, you seemed to imply, were more accepting than your parents had imagined they would be?
NR: Yeah. And also, again, this goes back to the--everything’s so intertwined, and it’s such a huge ( ). Being an immigrant, I know that job status is everything. And a lot of times, the classism will be its own barrier to validate your experience. It doesn’t matter, you can be a millionaire and have a homophobic Latin parent: they will love you and praise you to the ends and beyond if you are a hard worker and you made that money. They will at least learn how to stay in connection with you. However, if that happened, and let’s say you work at Little Caesar’s, they’ll continue to focus on how, “well, your life is not in order, so maybe this has to do with it.” Or, “these things have to do with it.” I think, me coming out when I did, I knew getting this job would help me come out in general. Because I’m like, “what are you gonna say? I’m the associate director of an LGBTQ youth center. I do drag for my job.” I was like, “woah, this is the time to do it.” We had a National Coming Out Day queer social thing that I started--there’ll be one in the end of this month--and it was so interesting, I think, because it was part of my job, it was to youth, it was to this community-ness. It appealed to all the things that Latin people love, and also goes to show that Latin people are very, very much resistant to change. That’s really it, this resistance to change, which, historically, when you have a mixed race of a bunch of colonized folks and indigenous folks and colonizers, all within the same area, and descendants of enslaved folks--all of that, there’s a lot of resistance to change because that land has changed so much. That’s its own evolution that needs to happen in Latin culture. You don’t realize how much, really, there is acceptance in these communities. It’s just the education and the exposure to experience, which is why, I think, we got what we got--because there’s a new experience; they all loved me; they got someone who understood how to explain what needed to be said about my identity, and why, and how it helped my mental health. I knew certain things that would help my Latin family be like, “well, if this was something that made this person feel so ‘life and death’, or made them feel so bad, and look, this person is now announcing who they are, but with a job that is telling them that they can do this…” To them, I think, it was the right exposure of, “oh, in this whole status update I’m affirmed by the outside world that his job is okay. Like, people want that there. People are paying people to do that.” And there was also this, “oh, this person is publicly putting their face in drag on Facebook, and non-family are commenting, being like, ‘yes, you look so amazing!’” I think who I am and my role right now, and the people I have supporting me in life, all allow there to be multiple experiences that Ecuadorian people were to say, “oh, this is actually okay.” It was helpful for me to realize--I knew that was gonna happen, but the fear of change that my parents instilled in me, thinking that wasn’t gonna happen--but no, a bunch of them just said, “we love you. This is great! This is nice.” Some of them started following my Instagram drag account, and I was like, “don’t do that. Unfollow me, please. We don’t need to do that.” But it was really cool; there was not any hate at all. Not one bit. So that was a really good, interesting thing to happen.
MP: To go off what you said about the focus on success--specifically economic success, having a good job--within families that have immigrated to the U.S. from Latin America, how do you think it would have been different for you if, say, hypothetically, you had come out to your family but you were not also the…what is your position?
NR: Assistant Director.
MP: Assistant Director. What if you were in a bad situation? What if you were struggling, and in that sort of situation you came out to them? How do you think they would have taken it then?
NR: There was a five-year conflict that answers to this, with my mom specifically. She really needed to see that, because she fought so much for her own success that she’s in this category of the hardworking immigrant that is like, “I need to see what I did, but even more beyond, because I gave you these opportunities.” A lot of adults are like that, and I think that goes to show that, sometimes, out of their own resistance to feeling what that comes from, or maybe not having time to figure that out, it’s usually projected onto us. Again, it’s this threshold mark. If you haven’t had it, there’s not gonna be as much active listening about your identity as you want. They may listen to you, but as soon as you hit too much about your problems as an individual, and they know that you have a shitty life situation, they’re shady, they’re gonna be like, “well, why aren’t you doing something about it?” They’re gonna be like, “well, we can’t even talk about you and your relationship.” Or, if you got misgendered at the street, they’re like, “well, you can’t pay rent.” The more that Latin folks are realizing it is okay to be who you are and still want to acknowledge and honor certain collectivist principles, there are certain things that do impede each other. I think that’s one of those, that, without essentially thinking of yourself through them for your job, it’s this failure. And therefore, anything that you feel is beyond that, they’re like…that reciprocity has been disconnected, if that makes sense. They’re expecting this; therefore, they can’t give you what you need as an individual, because they all feel like, as a family, they were not given what they were expected. That’s reality, which is why you’re seeing a lot of these norms shift and change. And they are hopefully becoming more case-by-case, and less generalizable about what Latin families look like in terms of lack of acceptance because of class being a huge issue, or success.
MP: Thank you. You mentioned collectivism as part of Ecuadorian and, more broadly, Latin American culture. In the context of, on one hand, to some extent, in some families, non-acceptance of queer folks, how do you think that it could be valuable to maybe bring those collectivist ideas into American culture?
NR: That’s a really good question. My parents are also really young, and I think it’s helpful that I got really young parents who had a lot of traditional ideas around collectivism, and spirituality. I got some things that felt like very older ways of doing things, and a lot of strict, rigid ways of, “this is what you need to do to do this.” My brother didn’t really get that, and so I see how an individualistic mindset has really helped him feel more confident in who he is, but now he lacks certain skills that make him really scared for the future. He knows more of who he is; he’s more assured of that. But now, he’s like, “I’m eighteen. I’m graduating high school. I haven’t had as much experiences about what to do for finances, or how to figure that out. Or a job, for bills.” He’s now entering that world where, for me, I definitely feel like I’m bringing that with my friends now, realizing not everyone got the experiences that I got that helped me get to where I am now, as in my job. I got a lot of life skills really fast, and I think that’s something that you get from collectivism, because someone is there, not to hold you, but if you fall, it’s not like you’re just in one straight line. Someone may just be behind you because they’re doing something else, so there’s a way for people to catch you. And I see that in the way that my parents, with two other families, were able to really help each other, as the adults of the family, and juggle different things at different times, because they knew that the reciprocity was so important for survival. It being so understood was how it worked so well, and putting a cog in all of that is queerness just being new. Not necessarily because it’s queer, but because it was introduced as something new that isn’t necessarily for everyone. It can be, but those ideals have already been there. The ideals that you see in a lot of queer chosen families are in a lot of collectivist norms. It’s just because it wasn’t made internally; it was made externally and brought in. That is really a “what are you doing?” type of scenario. I think that’s where it butts heads: introducing new things from the outside into internal collectivist practices of a family.
MP: So, when you say “from the outside”--ideas of queerness being brought in from the outside--are you thinking of Anglo-American culture, or…?
NR: Just life. I think American culture is so--I think a good way of saying this is that indigenous folks had queerness. A lot of it was just centered around two-spirit-ness. But that’s been lost. I think in Latin America there’s a lot of people who’ve had ancestors who had queerness internally honored, but that has been reshaped and morphed for so many intentions to look more around class, and stability. Before, there was a lot more spirituality involved, before colonization. But then again, I am a product of colonization, and so this is only speaking to indigenous folks. So, I say… “outside” is that there’s so much mixture within Latin America that the main ideal is what unifies them all together: that family-ness, that survival-ness. It’s why it’s such a vast amount of countries yet there are so many similarities within culture. Because we’re talking about such a family ideal, and how it has so many imp--like, ‘tip of the iceberg’-type situation. Queerness just may not be in there for so many families, because they had to grow that very intentionally to have certain things, and because Anglo-Americans so much back then, or even Mediterranean colonizers, brought these kind of principles from religion about--heteronormative principles and internalized homophobia. And I think that, being mixed in with collectivist principles that were already there, and other stuff--that was one of the main mixes. Religion was so important as a way to dominate folks or keep people in line. That is just one of the unfortunate consequences of all of the mixtures that happened in Latin America: the survival of Catholicism is there, and therefore the socialized homophobia that follows it.
MP: Okay. Focusing more on the U.S. now, how do you think that you, and other queer Latinx folks, especially those who have immigrated from Latin America, approach their identity and their self-expression differently in different spaces?
NR: I would say that representation really matters. Again, it’s so interesting how you having diverse experiences as a diverse person becomes privileges when you meet other diverse people who didn’t have that. As a queer Latin person living in North Carolina, being able to tell you that most of my chosen family comprises of queer Latin people, I was able to recreate these beautiful collectivist ideals, but with queerness involved. Not everyone gets that. And I didn’t have that for a long time. This is three or four years where I’ve had--and thinking in that mode, I can say that I’m able to operate in any way that I want to, because I’ve learned that, but my identities definitely were separate, because it was easy to come off as one single thing. Usually, ‘one-dimensional’ means that you were less seen.
Going to that, I think about my friends that I met in Nashville, specifically one friend. She’s a queer Latin woman of color, and I was really shocked when she said that me and my roommate were the first two other queer people of color she ever met, because she’s from Iowa. And I was like, “what the hell are you”--no, not Iowa, Idaho! Like, an hour outside of Boise. I was like, “okay, you’re near an urban area”--and she really lives in Oregon, but it’s rural Oregon, because it’s next to Idaho. But she’s like, “oh, my town--half of it is Mexican.” Because she’s Mexican. So, I’m like, “oh, my god.” Just hearing her story and seeing how she evolved within the two years that I was in Nashville, I saw what I was able to get in a more incremental way, throughout life. Just seeing how it was freeing for her to be around us. I remember her crying in moments. Like, she had a really toxic relationship with one of her best friends from Idaho who actually moved--this is such a messy story. They both moved so that the friend could go to the Vanderbilt program that I was in. Quickly realized that this person was subjected to a lot of norms that made her feel disempowered, because she doesn’t navigate or communicate in the same ways as the friend that she’s not friends with. Part of that realization was seeing me and my roommate at the time. I look back at her, and her experience, and my experience, and it’s so weird to see that be so innate in people. And seeing that kind of splitting of who I was, as an identity, really left when I hit 21, 22. They were that age when they came, so it was interesting how when you graduate college, if you didn’t get that same experience in college, is when you start really recognizing all of who you are. I think there’s less norms, because you’re still kind of in a bubble. I realized that this person’s identities were trying to become one, yet people or outside stuff, norms, were the cause of her feeling so disconnected from her Latin identity for such a long time, because the queerness was an accepting part that she found in high school and in college, which usually meant a White queer space that she had to either adapt to or get used to.
MP: Going off that, and looking a bit more at the intersection of queer identities and Latinx identities, what do you think about the term ‘Latinx’ itself? I know there’s been a lot of debate around it, at least in mainstream media in the U.S., and I’d like to hear what you think about that.
NR: Yeah. I’m so fortunate for my grad program because it’s allowed me to reflect. I’m like, “let’s just put some logic into the conversation.” I would love to get people in a room where it would magically solve everything, but… ‘Latine’, obviously, is another one, because it recognizes the language for what it is, and provides a solution internally. I think ‘Latinx’ provides a solution that’s not external, just hybrid. There are Latin people that made that here. Yes, it involved a lot of non-Latin people in academia, but that doesn’t mean that Latin people were not involved in that. I am all for all of them, but that’s something that I think is contextual. I think the reason why some people don’t like ‘Latinx’ is because that wasn’t their experience; and their experience of external words being put on them might make them feel very combative. I think it’s just really understanding why people get defensive, and learning ‘what do you give to those folks, in those moments, to release them from that?’ At the end of the day, we still all know what we’re talking about. ‘Latino’, ‘Latina’, ‘Latin’, ‘Latinx’, ‘Latine’; we all know what we’re talking about. Yet there is such a huge rift, and it’s just--because we already talk so much about validation, it’s just them making sure that this one thing that made them feel seen, and connected to so many people, and history, is being shifted or changed. Again, going back to the whole resistant of change deal. It’s not necessarily because they just hate it; the exposure has not given them the comfort that they feel they need all the time so that they feel safe. And then it goes to the words.
MP: Yeah. Also, what do you think, and what experiences have you had, regarding, more broadly, the way the Spanish language is gendered?
NR: It’s so interesting, because it’s my first language but I had to relearn Spanish to be an interpreter and be able to do professional translation and interpreting. It’s so instilled, as a language. It’s so hard for me to sit here and dissect. There should be a dedicated fifteen minutes to every forum, or workshop, or panel, dedicated around unpacking that. Getting people outside of the biases of like, “well, that’s just the language.” My brain’s like, “I don’t want to do more work; that’s just what it is.” However, it’s been really easy for me to add that “-e”, instead of the “-o/-a”, for certain non-specific pronouns, like “amigo”. And also, because it sounds cool, like “amigue”. You’ll hear Latin organizers use the “-e” in other gender-expansive ways. I definitely have used it a lot more when folks who have come in here are Spanish-speaking only. But again, that’s not all of the time, and I’m telling you specific times when I use certain things and when I don’t, and most of the times it’s just gendered.
It’s really, really hard when you’re talking about trans people, especially to my parents. I switch to Spanglish, because it’s a lot easier to bring in trans inclusion, or transness, without it feeling like someone is thinking they understand what you’re saying, but, because it’s gendered Spanish, we don’t know what they’re actually thinking. If you say “they” in English, you have a much better chance of them being like, “oh, we’re talking about a gender-fluid person or non-binary person. If you do that in Spanish, it just stops the whole conversation. If you’re like, “elle”, which is the gender-neutral word of--it may really jitter someone up. They may be like, “we’re not even just talking about gender anymore; now I’m just confused.” I think that if someone knows Spanglish, it’s easier to interpret queerness, which goes back to the ‘Latinx’ thing. I think Spanglish is really what is driving a lot of these pushes for new gender expansion. Not to say that Latin America’s not doing that on its own, but I think the gendering is interesting.
I would like to hear someone from Latin America talk about it, but even then, what I hear most about from trans folks is they poke fun at it. You hear a lot of them using it for comedic jokes, or to throw shade back at someone. The same things we hear about queer communities here. You kind of find a different way, whether that’s not actually changing the language…maybe you poke fun at it through using it. I think that’s what you see too.
MP: Yeah, that’s really interesting. You mentioning how you’ll use the term ‘Latine’, or adding “-e” or “-ue” onto words, especially if there are only-Spanish-speaking people who come to visit the Center--could you talk a bit more about what the LGBTQ Center of Durham, and specifically the LGBTQ Youth Center, does to support the community?
NR: Yeah, that’s a really good question. Unfortunately, when there is not someone who is bilingual / has done interpreting in nonprofit settings, there’s a lot of educa--professional experience that really provides an advantage to implement that here. I think, before me, the Center did a really good job of trying to translate captions for posts that weren’t long; because of the algorithms and that BS, certain lengths of posts would not capture as much people on the feed. But there would also be copies of Spanish translations for the World Fair, HIV testing…the services that we do either routinely or once a month were always translated. If you don’t have an interpreter on staff, whether that’s its own thing or someone that has the capacity to interpret for the staff, like me, then you have to look at it as a money--it’s a budget. Language justice then becomes a budget line. I think because here, they never had that many clients, but now there’s specifically one Spanish-speaking client, from Colombia, who needs interpreting, so we’re able to offer that. It’s cool to know that--no one was denied offerings here because of it--but that now there’s more access that can be had. I would say that there’s just more access.
And I do have connections to Latin folks in different orgs, but I say that all to say that I think a good community will have a succession plan. So, leaving “what does language justice for this org look like?” Right now, it’s actively being done, because we’re figuring it out. But eventually, I would want to write down the things that you can do, to have more of…language justice written down, and have people know “these are the steps to do”, “this is the people to contact”, “this is the org that does interpretation that also does queer events’ interpretation. Those types of things. But for now, it’s definitely me providing those services for Spanish-speaking people.
MP: Looking more broadly at language access, what do you think the state of language access is in Durham and in North Carolina?
NR: I think language access is really, really apparent in city government structures in Durham. Everything is at least bilingual. Actually, if I look closer, there’s other languages there being represented, but everything is very bilingual, even in the community health centers. I think Durham has a lot of really good reputations for language access for Spanish-speaking clients. Now, when we leave Spanish-speaking clients and talk about language access in general, North Carolina--now, I’m understanding my own privilege, because I speak both of those languages. When I went to San Francisco for a conference, I was like, “woah, language access requires so much money. And it can be a lot more.” Like, at that conference, they had Spanish translation, and they had American Sign Language translation, and Spanish Sign Language translation, on top of interpreters for smaller communities. It was interesting: even if there’s only one queer person that may come from one specific country in Durham, that person exists. And it is unfortunate that we’re not at the place where every center can be equipped as a polyglot, or a Rosetta Stone, to answer folks. I think, in that sense, Durham is a lot like other places that are not as big as San Francisco, where a lot of this money for combinations and services and accesses being put into--we’re not New York; we’re not LA, Atlanta, so you see community initiatives, and I think there’s a lot of that here with Spanish-speaking--I think you see that legally with Spanish-speaking, in general. You go to other places and it is a little bit more robust, or you go to other places and it’s way less. Rural areas are way more impacted by this. But there is also a push to support rural workers who are predominantly known to only speak a certain language as well. There’s a lot of work being done. Is that enough? Probably not.
MP: Thank you. Going back to Ecuador, I’d like to ask--and this may get into a lot of what you’ve already said, so don’t feel like you have to repeat anything--but how do you think that your life might have gone differently if you had kept living in Ecuador?
NR: Yeah, so I think the mask would have still been on [laughter] past a certain point. I don’t think I would have come out at eighteen. But then again, you might see the same thing you see here, where friends are a huge support for that queer acceptance. And that’s helpful for me to know; maybe I could have found a good friend group. I wouldn’t know on that end. If I had to grow up there, I probably would have been miserable. Knowing also that the banks were closing, who knows what my parents--that’s what they were in, so who knows what our financial situation would have been? My possibilities would have been severely limited. I would have had to stay in line, because there would have been not as much of diverse experiences. At least in the U.S., I had access to media, to TV, to school, to so many different groups of people, because I also went to diverse schools, that I was able to realize there’s way more ways of living. I think that was helpful, for me to know that I will have my own chance to do that. I don’t know if that was my saving grace, and I don’t know if that would have been apparent for me in Ecuador. I think it would have really been like, “I don’t know if this can be enough.”
MP: You mentioned media just now, having access to more media in the U.S., so that made me want to ask: what are your thoughts about representation in media, either in the U.S. or in Ecuador, of people who are queer, and Latine, and also neurodivergent?
NR: I think it’s really important. Especially the last one. I think neurodivergence is so taboo in so many different cultures, just to talk about it, and even feel empowered about something that’s deemed a disability. That being said, I feel like that’s its own forefront, and is really starting to come up, but still lagging. When it comes to queer Spanish Latine identities, I think it’s so important because it’s affirming in a way that you never think of. I would not have come out, being non-binary, if it wasn’t for the show “We’re Here.” Do you know that show? It’s on HBO.
MP: I honestly do not. Would you like to explain it?
NR: Yeah, it’s three drag queens from “RuPaul’s Drag Race”: Shangela--just so everyone knows the context--Shangela, Bob the Drag Queen, and Eureka did it. It’s like “Queer Eye”, but not. They would go to different rural towns throughout America that are super conservative, and would help queer folks there throw on a drag show and get in drag for the first time. It’s been such a diverse show. Season Two or Three, the one that recently came out, there was one specific episode about a queer, non-binary person coming out to their parents. I never would have thought--again, fear of change; I’m still an immigrant, so it goes down to me--as quickly as it was, seeing this two-minute scene, this whole idea of, “oh, I can’t come out” completely went out the door.
MP: Oh, wow.
NR: Because I was like, “oh, this is so easy. This person doesn’t know how to speak Spanish that well; their parents don’t know how to speak English that well; I don’t have that barrier.” And they’re way more feminine-presenting than I’ve ever been, but still saying, “I’m non-binary; this is who I am; this is part of transness” was really, really powerful. I actually started crying. I was crying just because I didn’t realize how I never saw me on camera, and seeing all those identities at the same time was mind-blowing. That everything is possible. And them having some more exposure be on that person; having to talk to them; because they were also nineteen, so they were getting combative. So, I was able to see, “okay, Niccolo: I can see how your defensiveness of--yes, it’s okay to be defensive, but is that gonna help the situation? No.” I think all of those things were important to understand. There was a dynamic of it being human, and family, and having an external support system saying, “hey, we hear you. This is really hard on them too.” And having someone getting to ask them questions about their queerness, and the parents having to hear someone else being like, “I am listening to you.” I think that was all so important for me to come out. I think I came out like a week later--
MP: Oh, wow.
NR: To my parents.
MP: You talking about that show made me think back to how you said that you yourself do drag. First of all, was that show influential also in you starting that? And what has the experience been like for you, doing drag?
NR: Yeah, I’m glad…we should talk about drag. Drag, I think, is another reason why I blended both my Latin identity and queer identity. And neurodivergence. I have ADHD, and I have symptoms of borderline personality disorder. However, that shit is expensive to get properly diagnosed, and so I only have a diagnosis for ADHD. However, being also spiritual and Ecuadorian, I think that there is a such a divine opportunity to see through being categorized as someone who has personality challenges. Also, understanding that I am non-binary, and realizing that there’s so many ways of looking at it. I think drag really unlocked that for me, because I was able to create and transform myself into this completely feminine person that is me but feels completely empowered and, in all senses, the way--the air is very thin; it just feels light; it feels breathable. When I’m in that suit of a person, I am me but I feel so powerful.
I think that I knew what drag was my senior year of high school. I would have known earlier, but, again, ESL. My first year of theater, they kept talking about “Drag Race”, and I thought that they were talking about NASCAR. I’m just like, “well, I’m not gonna entertain this conversation”, because I’m like, “how the hell are these three people, who I know are gay as hell, talking about that?” Then, one day, I kept hearing them talking about this person named Shangela, and I was like, “that does not sound like a NASCAR driver.” So, I looked it up, and I was like, “oh, this is drag queens.” Watching “Drag Race” was really helpful because there was so many different types of people. And then “We’re Here” only started probably three years ago, and that was even more wholesome, because I was able to see that anything is possible. It wasn’t just ten contestants going to a show, it was “we’re going to rural areas that are actually scary, and we’re gonna support either people there that are trying to create safe spaces for queer people or are queer themselves.” I think that was really empowering, and good to feel. And I think that being when I was really starting my drag was helpful to know that “you’ve got this. And everything else comes next.” And knowing these people were so empowered by being in drag for the first time is a reminder of how much that can do for a person.
MP: I think that’s all the questions I’d like to ask. Is there anything else that you would like to share?
NR: No. Oh, well, I guess my drag name is Kali Fuchis. If you don’t know Kali Uchis--
MP: I do know Kali Uchis. [laughs]
NR: Yeah, and then ‘Fuchis’: do you know what that means?
MP: I don’t; could you explain that?
NR: Yeah, it’s Spanish slang for ‘stinky’. So, it’s camp. Just like most drag names are camp. It’s a play on Kali Uchis. So that is really fun. I’m glad to end on that note. I think my name is really, really fun, because when there are queer Latin people in the audience at a drag show, everyone is really silent because they’re truly trying to figure out what the hell my name is. They know Kali, and they’re trying to figure out--they know most drag queen names are punny, so they’re like, “what the hell is that?” But then you hear these moments of laughter, deep laughter; they’re like “that’s so stupid!” And it’s like “yes”, because that slang is so specific to you as a baby. It’s used when a kid is outside for a really long time, or doesn’t want to take his shower. It’s specifically for a little kid. So, you don’t hear that again; no one’s gonna be like, “oh, that trash stinks--”--they’re not gonna say that trash is fuchis. You would laugh because you’re like, “that’s for a child”; it’s supposed to be for a baby only, or a young toddler. So, hearing it out loud, you’re like, “what?” It’s so affirming for me to know that other queer Latin people are here, and in the audience. And that, I think, usually helps boost my energy when I’m about to perform.
MP: That does make me think of one more question. What do you think about the importance of not only focusing on the struggles that queer, Latine, neurodivergent, et cetera people face, but also the joy in their lives?
NR: I definitely think that’s really important. I would say the top things right now in a lot of queer Latine people are: listening to really good music, trying to clear your debt [laughs], and going out and dancing. I think, a lot of times, there’s such a big push to just dance and to have fun, and to talk, and to be in community. And I think all of those things are so important for people to realize. People are obsessed with Bad Bunny, they’re obsessed with Kali Uchis; we’re seeing it worldwide. Just knowing that we do all the things that everyone else does, but also knowing that, like, potlucks is a great big thing that is a Latin thing. Like, one of my new drag daughters has been obsessed with getting people over to do a potluck, and they did it, but they want to keep doing one. It’s a big thing, once you get into that rhythm of having community, to either expect someone else--, or expect at some point for there to be a gathering. And I think that’s always really nice, to know that we’re getting that back even though we’re not with our families anymore; that we’re doing that within the queer Latin gatherings, and that there’s just so much laughter happening.
MP: Thank you. I think for real this time, that is my last question.
NR: Mhm! Thank you so much.
MP: Yeah, thank you so much for talking with me!
NR: Yeah, of course!
END OF INTERVIEW
[01:06:08]
Transcriber: Myri Prause
9 April 2023
Es: Transcripción
Myri Prause: Today is the 3rd of April, 2023. My name is Myri Prause. I am interviewing--
Niccolo Roditti: Niccolo Roditti--
MP: --at the LGBTQ Center of Durham. First of all, could you introduce who you are, and what you see as the most important parts of your identity?
NR: Yeah, so… hi, my name is Niccolo Roditti; my pronouns are they/he; and I am a non-binary Latine person, and also neurodivergent. I guess those are the three salient identities that are really important to me. Obviously, they seem important to the rest of the world too, because those are things that you now are expected to hear, or is a more generalized norm in terms of what to say to someone about who you are.
MP: Could you tell me about how you moved with your parents from Ecuador to the U.S. when you were three?
NR: Yeah. Being born in Guayaquil, Ecuador…don’t really remember much [laughs]. But what was interesting was that moving from Ecuador to the United States at three was really because of what was happening in the United States was opportunity from Bill Clinton’s policies of immigration allowing there to be applications passed from mother to daughter, which was my mom’s case. My dad didn’t come with us initially; he actually came four years later--
MP: Okay.
NR: --because his application was stalled. But again, we left because of the financial institution collapse of Ecuador / political instability, and a lot of teen gang violence. All of that in Guayaquil led to the decision of coming to the United States.
MP: Have you talked with your mom at all about how it was for her to come to the U.S. initially with you but not with her husband?
NR: Yeah, I think that goes into the context of their relationship, and my mom being kind of a Type A person. She was adaptable to it because she was very much “I want to do this in my way”, so I think, in that sense, she was more of the go-getter in that relationship. For her, it felt natural for her to come here, and to make it feel like it was her job to do everything. That woman, she is a role model. She learned English while she was working at an airport job, and just had a dictionary. She would work three jobs, and then started temp jobs in some financial institutions, and then my dad eventually came. My mom really worked her way up, learning English, doing some jobs, and then setting up some ground for when my dad came.
MP: How did your life eventually lead you to here, the LGBTQ Center of Durham? What has your life been like between when you moved from Ecuador and now?
NR: That’s a really good question. I think Rhode Island was interesting, where we first moved, because I went to a charter school primarily, and I was learning English. And so now, reflecting back on that time, I think it was a really good time when I learned a lot about acceptance. I went to a charter school that really had a lot of principles about equality. The assistant director and the director were queer. A lot of that stuff was just normal to me, but not necessarily in the forefront.
Coming to North Carolina, it’s kind of its own story as to what leads me to here. I grew up in Charlotte, graduated, was closeted. That made me not want to leave the state but to go somewhere else. NC State was affordable, and I knew it had a good reputation. There, I already had this thirst for wanting to know “why?” for things. A lot of times, it was injustices--growing up, not knowing why certain things were the way they were. At NC State, I did International Studies and Psychology. I really loved learning how all those things melded into what I wanted to do, so I worked in immigrant rights, I worked in foreign policy stuff with Latin America. I was interested in always being able to figure out “how can communities do better?” That led me to doing AmeriCorps after I graduated, and that was in Durham. That’s when I really fell in love with Durham, and the work that Durham does, as an org. I would say that I have such a knowledge of how Durham works, with non-profits and city governments. I taught in laundromats--literacy to Black and brown kids, through Book Harvest--and I did stuff with Student U. Overall, I was getting really good knowledge of what community looks like, not just for my age but for the actual communities I was helping.
Unfortunately, the pandemic happened. My main job I was doing at that time was with the Domestic Violence Center, doing education prevention with youth. And all those things made me apply to Vanderbilt’s Master’s program for Community Development and Action. I got in; I left [Durham]. And then two years later, after I graduated, I came back, because my boss--and this is what they say: networking is so important--my boss now was a coworker of mine when I left that center. And because he knew I worked really well with youth--we already had that work style--I was referred to apply to the job. It honestly just fell into my hands, which was great.
MP: Speaking of Vanderbilt, in our previous discussion you talked about some of the differences that you see between the acceptance of Latinx people and immigrants, and also LGBTQ people, in Tennessee versus in Durham and other parts of North Carolina. Could you talk a bit about that right now?
NR: I think that’s one thing that--first, it’s just so interesting how norms work. If we were not in the South, and we had less of the geography of the South, then all those--no one knows what Durham was; North Carolina and Tennessee probably would be clumped together. Similarly, with the hate bills; on a state level we’ve had our own introductions of bills that are really anti-LGBTQ. What’s interesting though is that, I think, North Carolina’s history--and this is probably just me being a North Carolinian--each region has really rich history. I think that’s because it’s on the east coast; it’s older; there’s not a huge mountain range that blocks you to get to the next state. All that to say to that there’s been more time here; there’s been more diversity here first. If we think about the immigration population, there’s a huge boom now of Latin folks going to Tennessee, like you would see in the mid-2000s in North Carolina--and you’re still seeing here. All of that to say that I think that all influences how fast culture has gone. Again, you see that with more time, more acceptance here, more established communities that have done the work.
When I went to Tennessee, also, the geography doesn’t help. The regions here are so interconnected within two to three hours. Over there, there’s only three major cities, and they’re all three hours from each other. And then Chattanooga, which is at the bottom. I think that isolation allows there to be these pockets of great acceptance, like there is here, for LGBTQ folks, and Latine folks, but when you go into the rural areas, it’s such a well-known thing--if you go thirty minutes outside of the city, it’s completely different. In Tennessee you will get, very much, stares. It’s really uncomfortable. I remember, once, I went hiking during the pandemic, an hour and a half outside of Nashville, and it was like a scene from a movie. You know when you open the door, and everyone does that, like, ‘skrrt’ back, and looks? It was so interesting to feel that, because--you get stares in North Carolina, too; I’m not gonna lie. But that type of--these people are acting straight out of a movie, in terms of how uncomfortable they felt, just with the presence of us. It was really strange. And there’s more of that over there, as you see, with everything going on. But again, I think that goes with institutional history: education there; what does that look like? what is its history before? all that. And why those three cities are completely different; that’s another thing. Nashville is really an interesting place in terms of where it’s set. I think geography and state history has a lot to do with why they’re different. Because the similarity is just that they’re southern and there are queer people there.
MP: Somewhat connected to what you just said, you mentioned earlier that, for a while, you were closeted. Can you, if you’re willing to, talk about when you decided to come out of the closet and how it was to make that decision? And what it felt like afterward?
NR: Honestly, I think this is interesting because, for me personally, being neurodivergent with ESL stuff as a kid, I think to me it was a blessing even though it caused a lot of struggles. I was learning about a lot of things, and while doing that I was able to grow up and use television and media as a way to learn a lot of norms. Like I said, in Rhode Island, I was--not sheltered, but I was just taught in a different way. There wasn’t a lot of issues being presented to me. I also was dealing with a lot of emotional strife at home, with my family.
So, as a kid, I was just growing up, soaking in a lot of information, and then when I came to North Carolina I was bullied a lot in the sixth grade, which was the point of, also, self-awareness for me. I was being told that--being younger, I was a year younger from my age in school, and so my voice didn’t drop. I was also the smartest kid. I was put in an all-boys class--it was a test they were doing where, of the three different levels of class instruction you could be in, I was in the middle, and anyone who was not honors or not standard was put in an all-boys, all-girls, or standard, as a test to see if that made a difference. That also made it worse, because I was in a room full of all boys, and I was the smartest kid, and also feminine, and therefore taking up space in a way that other people were like, “okay, you’re queer”, and I was like, “what is that?” So, I think because I came from it as a place of other people telling me a lot, I was freaked out. I now felt like there was a mask being put on that I didn’t really understand why. And at the same time--by that time I already knew there were norms about not being feminine from my dad. And not really understanding why, but knowing that he didn’t like that.
I think there was a lot of these--again, not understanding what was going on, but in eighth grade, “The Real World: D.C.”, that season there was a hot guy, and he was bi, and I was like, “holy shit, this person is telling me that they like women and like men.” And it fluctuated in the show, how he was really into women in the beginning and then it turned into him really liking men. I think that justification of…it doesn’t matter what spectrum or what day you like--just knowing that this person was involved with two different genders at that time. I was like, “that was really cool.” So, from there, I was able to start watching MTV more; I watched a lot of shows like Teen Wolf, which had a lot of queerness in it. Internally, I was building such a big repertoire of media and culture, of what queerness meant to me. But I knew that there was this line of threshold that I didn’t want to cross as a high school student, because I knew that it could have led to me being kicked out, or it could have led to my parents not giving me as much freedom as I had as a kid, or financial support. So, I waited, and knew--it was so interesting, I had this plan, knowing that I had to go to grad school, and there was a point where I would finally live my life. And then, once I went to college, I already had come out to a group of kids in high school, because I joined theater my tenth-grade year. That really helped because, I think coming out to a few amount--and I also went to a very person-of-color-heavy high school, and queer-person-of-color-heavy high school. I now realize that was a privilege, knowing what the education system is like in the United States. It was really, really a blessing to go to a place that was completely accepting of my brownness and also of my queerness. It was really awesome. But again, there was this four-year period of…I was very involved; my parents thought it was an extracurricular; everyone in the school in general--there was not that much homophobia; trans folks were already socially transitioned and were living as any other student in every grade.
So, going to college, I didn’t realize that there was all of these, like, “oh, I have been living this inconsistent life”, and the closetedness really was hard. I didn’t realize how much it was weighing on me because I had such a great high school experience. I came out within a semester at college, so once it was on my mind again--I used to get really afraid of the consequences, and I think in college I was able to realize there was a distance, and I knew that my parents really needed a certain distance. I think, intrinsically, I knew my timeline, into when I needed to come out in a more safe way. And I came out through email [laughs]. Everyone was like, “that’s so insincere!” and I was like, “you don’t know my parents. They are so dramatic as people that they’re gonna appreciate that they didn’t have a chance to say whatever they wanted, on their mind, when they initially found out. Later on, like a month later, they were like, “you were right.” So, that’s how I was able to transition out of being closeted into being open at NC State.
MP: Thank you for sharing that. There are a lot of follow-up questions I could ask at this point, but I’d like to go back to your parents. You mentioned that a lot of your ideas about norms regarding masculinity, and femininity, were very heavily influenced by your father; and when we talked before, you mentioned specifically that your father was a link to Ecuadorian norms and especially machismo. Could you talk about that?
NR: Yeah, that’s a really good linkage that you had in terms of our past conversation, especially with my brother, and how I see it now more, how it’s totally real. With me, I think it’s interesting that my dad didn’t necessarily want to come here. It’s interesting how you see a culture within a person who’s very privileged and saw a lot of privileges within that culture. Coming here, and seeing a child who is representing a lot of mixture of cultures and schooling and language, as a kid, and him being like, “this isn’t okay, that’s not okay, this isn’t okay.” I think what’s interesting was that that made me feel very isolated as a person, because I knew I wasn’t necessarily a White American, but as I got older and more people started doing things like him, especially the Latin guys, it got harder to be around them. I was a skater kid, an emo with a bunch of Latin skater kids, from like 6th to 9th, 10th grade. But then the norms of being macho, and not going to the smart classes, and not necessarily taking school clearly, or getting involved with a bunch of older folks who may be doing drugs, or whatever the case is; each one had their own situation. My paths and who I was in terms of how I represented myself and also the ways that I thought about education, the way I wanted to succeed, did not match up the way masculinity was being presented to so many Latin men of color. My dad, I think, represented that.
There’s been a healing of me reclaiming that through my own queerness, and my queer family I have that’s Latin--my chosen queer family. I think that’s interesting because my dad’s representation really was a denial for such a long time, but re-finding that for myself now, and seeing that my dad is going through his own change in his own masculinity, and that my brother has a healthier version of my dad’s masculinity, you see that it’s more reassuring now than what it was. I think, before, it was definitely a big obstacle in feeling completely whole within my queerness and Latinidad, which a lot of people still have a struggle with. Like my cousin: she’s the same age as me, and she hasn’t been able to leave Charlotte; she has two kids; and she’ll say that she still feels this big resentment toward Latin culture because of the experiences she had, too. And me realizing our only different experience is that I’ve left Charlotte, I’ve found my queer chosen family, and a lot of them are Latin. So, it’s interesting also to see how my cousin has been stuck in her own ways of feelings toward the culture, and a lot of that also dealing with masculinity and how it has denied her, as a Latin woman, certain things too. Yeah, machismo is definitely a big part of feeling identified, which I think we’ll go into later in the interview. That’s probably why it’s really hard to figure out “what does queerness look like in Ecuador?”, because everyone’s trying to adapt to the norm, which is still pretty rigid and centralized on masculinity.
MP: Thank you. Going off that, can you talk a bit more about the norms in Ecuador, and, based on your experience--I know you don’t remember living there, I assume, before you were three--but, I think you mentioned you did visit Ecuador--
NR: Yeah.
MP: --and so, based on that experience, how would you describe to someone who has not been there the difference between norms in the U.S. and in Ecuador?
NR: Yeah. I think, also, Facebook has helped, because my dad has a huge family, and so I think, to me, it’s like I’ve always lived there, because I’ve seen all the different families and how they’re all in different classes of economic status. And I would say that, in general, the norms--it’s really centered around family, going to school and then getting your own job; a lot of it is based off things that you should do to establish a good life for yourself, or what is seen as a good life. That involves, usually, a private Catholic school, because public education there is not as funded as it is in the U.S., or there’s a lot of cracks in the systems, or it’s viewed as low-income; there’s a lot of classism involved with that. I think as soon as you say that, you’re like, “Catholic school, bingo! There’s a huge religion portion to it.” And the schools that they’re going to. There’s also a dual-language thing now. Private schools don’t have to be just Catholic anymore; there’s English/Spanish dual enrollment schools there. So, there’s other types of private schools there now, in Ecuador. And I think that’s one thing that’s interesting, that when my cousins have been growing up, they’ve been seeing the change, and have been told what it’s been like. It’s gotten very Americanized over there, but not necessarily the family stuff. So, I will definitely say, again, family is first. And maintaining the image of the family. That means putting on masks, or sacrificing parts of yourself. I say that to say that it’s so interesting that--Facebook again is a good example--Ecuadorians, specifically my dad’s Ecuadorian family--there’s maybe sixty people I’m talking about when I say “my dad’s family”--
MP: Oh, wow.
NR: Yeah, and he was the youngest of ten. All of his older brothers and sisters had children that were his age, so their children are my age, and some of them already have children. So, a lot of people are on Facebook, and there’s still a lot of--one is that my dad says “maricón” all the time. It’s such a slang to say the f-word in Spanish, just like we say, “hey, bitch.” Even as he says it, it doesn’t--but that is…let’s just start there. And a lot of feminized words in slang are still used, like when your wife is telling you something to do. My dad is the one who always held these masculine tropes. He would be like, “oh, don’t be a mandarina!”, don’t be a mandarin orange. Basically, being squishable. Don’t let your woman assert over you. It’s interesting, because my dad as a person, definitely in jokes and the ways that people navigate it--he was funny, but it was always, “let’s poke around the image of what you’re doing that isn’t Ecuadorian, and let’s make fun of it.” That is a lot of things that are family-bound, but also, in general, that’s what humor is like in a lot of families, which is why there’s so much resentment in the kids. It’s this “let’s poke fun at what isn’t us”, because there’s a strength to that. But also, when your kids become more than just what you’ve imagined, that’s when it gets this weird, tricky part. I see that with certain of my cousins that don’t have the best relationships with their parents, some who’ve left Ecuador and now live in the U.S., and others who maintain those norms.
MP: Once again, there are a lot of questions I could ask at this point, but I’d like to go back to Catholicism, which you mentioned has a lot of influence in Ecuador. And you were also just talking about a sort of image of a proper family. How do you think that Catholicism has influenced what that image is, and also the acceptance of LGBTQ folks in Ecuador?
NR: I think the image one in Catholicism is definitely there. We can talk about the queerness one, because it’s just not talked about. It’s still these very big institutional dogmas in Catholicism where it’s like, “it’s not right.” Those who maybe are sixty-plus, that generation will not even--if they weren’t already accepting, there’s not that much room for them. The people my parents’ age, in terms of LGBTQ, that’s where it depends on how religious we’re talking about. Right now, it’s kind of the same as the U.S. But when it comes to just in general, I recently have come out to my whole family on Facebook, and even my parents were shocked. It was the complete opposite of what they thought would happen, but I think it’s because I waited and I had the language and words to describe what I was doing. That was a big shock, for a lot of us. The whole thing of protecting the image and the family was so big that my parents brought that anxiety into me, of like, “this thing will break your dad’s relationship with his whole family.” It’s so interesting how the norm becomes its own fear. It’s its own monster because you go to church, or--my parents, we never went to church; we only went to church when I had communion and then confirmation, which was in eighth grade. Or when they fought. It goes back to this image of--even if you aren’t the most religious person, for some reason there’s this whole thing of like, “well, the closer we want to be to this image of who the good family is, we’re gonna be the closest to Catholic ideals.” I think, because my parents really, really wanted to showcase that, because of a bunch of stuff that was not that at home--knowing how radical and open my parents were, I now really am starting to process why they were like that. They were chasing this image that involved a lot of Catholic, homophobic understandings of life…that didn’t necessarily influence them at all, but for some reason with me--and now I’ve really understood--it was this mixture of, yes, some overall LGBTQ…internalized homophobic ideals, really clouded in masculinity, but that mixed in with this chasing of what an ideal family looked like, and my mom needing to comfort my dad’s machismo in that ideal. It led to them being like, “your queerness is an issue, because we won’t focus on it but when things are bad we’re gonna focus on it, because we need to as tight-knit of a family, as tight-kit of this Catholic, traditional Ecuadorian family, as you can be.” But I think, in general, you’re seeing a lot of families starting to just not give a shit about that anymore, quite frankly. And I think you’re seeing a lot more interesting things pop up. I don’t know if there’s a word for it; just more interesting, because I think things are becoming more real. You’re seeing a lot more truth coming out now in a lot of different families.
MP: Going off that, you said that your parents--when you came out to your whole family on Facebook, what they thought would happen was different from what did happen. Could you explain what exactly did happen? People, you seemed to imply, were more accepting than your parents had imagined they would be?
NR: Yeah. And also, again, this goes back to the--everything’s so intertwined, and it’s such a huge ( ). Being an immigrant, I know that job status is everything. And a lot of times, the classism will be its own barrier to validate your experience. It doesn’t matter, you can be a millionaire and have a homophobic Latin parent: they will love you and praise you to the ends and beyond if you are a hard worker and you made that money. They will at least learn how to stay in connection with you. However, if that happened, and let’s say you work at Little Caesar’s, they’ll continue to focus on how, “well, your life is not in order, so maybe this has to do with it.” Or, “these things have to do with it.” I think, me coming out when I did, I knew getting this job would help me come out in general. Because I’m like, “what are you gonna say? I’m the associate director of an LGBTQ youth center. I do drag for my job.” I was like, “woah, this is the time to do it.” We had a National Coming Out Day queer social thing that I started--there’ll be one in the end of this month--and it was so interesting, I think, because it was part of my job, it was to youth, it was to this community-ness. It appealed to all the things that Latin people love, and also goes to show that Latin people are very, very much resistant to change. That’s really it, this resistance to change, which, historically, when you have a mixed race of a bunch of colonized folks and indigenous folks and colonizers, all within the same area, and descendants of enslaved folks--all of that, there’s a lot of resistance to change because that land has changed so much. That’s its own evolution that needs to happen in Latin culture. You don’t realize how much, really, there is acceptance in these communities. It’s just the education and the exposure to experience, which is why, I think, we got what we got--because there’s a new experience; they all loved me; they got someone who understood how to explain what needed to be said about my identity, and why, and how it helped my mental health. I knew certain things that would help my Latin family be like, “well, if this was something that made this person feel so ‘life and death’, or made them feel so bad, and look, this person is now announcing who they are, but with a job that is telling them that they can do this…” To them, I think, it was the right exposure of, “oh, in this whole status update I’m affirmed by the outside world that his job is okay. Like, people want that there. People are paying people to do that.” And there was also this, “oh, this person is publicly putting their face in drag on Facebook, and non-family are commenting, being like, ‘yes, you look so amazing!’” I think who I am and my role right now, and the people I have supporting me in life, all allow there to be multiple experiences that Ecuadorian people were to say, “oh, this is actually okay.” It was helpful for me to realize--I knew that was gonna happen, but the fear of change that my parents instilled in me, thinking that wasn’t gonna happen--but no, a bunch of them just said, “we love you. This is great! This is nice.” Some of them started following my Instagram drag account, and I was like, “don’t do that. Unfollow me, please. We don’t need to do that.” But it was really cool; there was not any hate at all. Not one bit. So that was a really good, interesting thing to happen.
MP: To go off what you said about the focus on success--specifically economic success, having a good job--within families that have immigrated to the U.S. from Latin America, how do you think it would have been different for you if, say, hypothetically, you had come out to your family but you were not also the…what is your position?
NR: Assistant Director.
MP: Assistant Director. What if you were in a bad situation? What if you were struggling, and in that sort of situation you came out to them? How do you think they would have taken it then?
NR: There was a five-year conflict that answers to this, with my mom specifically. She really needed to see that, because she fought so much for her own success that she’s in this category of the hardworking immigrant that is like, “I need to see what I did, but even more beyond, because I gave you these opportunities.” A lot of adults are like that, and I think that goes to show that, sometimes, out of their own resistance to feeling what that comes from, or maybe not having time to figure that out, it’s usually projected onto us. Again, it’s this threshold mark. If you haven’t had it, there’s not gonna be as much active listening about your identity as you want. They may listen to you, but as soon as you hit too much about your problems as an individual, and they know that you have a shitty life situation, they’re shady, they’re gonna be like, “well, why aren’t you doing something about it?” They’re gonna be like, “well, we can’t even talk about you and your relationship.” Or, if you got misgendered at the street, they’re like, “well, you can’t pay rent.” The more that Latin folks are realizing it is okay to be who you are and still want to acknowledge and honor certain collectivist principles, there are certain things that do impede each other. I think that’s one of those, that, without essentially thinking of yourself through them for your job, it’s this failure. And therefore, anything that you feel is beyond that, they’re like…that reciprocity has been disconnected, if that makes sense. They’re expecting this; therefore, they can’t give you what you need as an individual, because they all feel like, as a family, they were not given what they were expected. That’s reality, which is why you’re seeing a lot of these norms shift and change. And they are hopefully becoming more case-by-case, and less generalizable about what Latin families look like in terms of lack of acceptance because of class being a huge issue, or success.
MP: Thank you. You mentioned collectivism as part of Ecuadorian and, more broadly, Latin American culture. In the context of, on one hand, to some extent, in some families, non-acceptance of queer folks, how do you think that it could be valuable to maybe bring those collectivist ideas into American culture?
NR: That’s a really good question. My parents are also really young, and I think it’s helpful that I got really young parents who had a lot of traditional ideas around collectivism, and spirituality. I got some things that felt like very older ways of doing things, and a lot of strict, rigid ways of, “this is what you need to do to do this.” My brother didn’t really get that, and so I see how an individualistic mindset has really helped him feel more confident in who he is, but now he lacks certain skills that make him really scared for the future. He knows more of who he is; he’s more assured of that. But now, he’s like, “I’m eighteen. I’m graduating high school. I haven’t had as much experiences about what to do for finances, or how to figure that out. Or a job, for bills.” He’s now entering that world where, for me, I definitely feel like I’m bringing that with my friends now, realizing not everyone got the experiences that I got that helped me get to where I am now, as in my job. I got a lot of life skills really fast, and I think that’s something that you get from collectivism, because someone is there, not to hold you, but if you fall, it’s not like you’re just in one straight line. Someone may just be behind you because they’re doing something else, so there’s a way for people to catch you. And I see that in the way that my parents, with two other families, were able to really help each other, as the adults of the family, and juggle different things at different times, because they knew that the reciprocity was so important for survival. It being so understood was how it worked so well, and putting a cog in all of that is queerness just being new. Not necessarily because it’s queer, but because it was introduced as something new that isn’t necessarily for everyone. It can be, but those ideals have already been there. The ideals that you see in a lot of queer chosen families are in a lot of collectivist norms. It’s just because it wasn’t made internally; it was made externally and brought in. That is really a “what are you doing?” type of scenario. I think that’s where it butts heads: introducing new things from the outside into internal collectivist practices of a family.
MP: So, when you say “from the outside”--ideas of queerness being brought in from the outside--are you thinking of Anglo-American culture, or…?
NR: Just life. I think American culture is so--I think a good way of saying this is that indigenous folks had queerness. A lot of it was just centered around two-spirit-ness. But that’s been lost. I think in Latin America there’s a lot of people who’ve had ancestors who had queerness internally honored, but that has been reshaped and morphed for so many intentions to look more around class, and stability. Before, there was a lot more spirituality involved, before colonization. But then again, I am a product of colonization, and so this is only speaking to indigenous folks. So, I say… “outside” is that there’s so much mixture within Latin America that the main ideal is what unifies them all together: that family-ness, that survival-ness. It’s why it’s such a vast amount of countries yet there are so many similarities within culture. Because we’re talking about such a family ideal, and how it has so many imp--like, ‘tip of the iceberg’-type situation. Queerness just may not be in there for so many families, because they had to grow that very intentionally to have certain things, and because Anglo-Americans so much back then, or even Mediterranean colonizers, brought these kind of principles from religion about--heteronormative principles and internalized homophobia. And I think that, being mixed in with collectivist principles that were already there, and other stuff--that was one of the main mixes. Religion was so important as a way to dominate folks or keep people in line. That is just one of the unfortunate consequences of all of the mixtures that happened in Latin America: the survival of Catholicism is there, and therefore the socialized homophobia that follows it.
MP: Okay. Focusing more on the U.S. now, how do you think that you, and other queer Latinx folks, especially those who have immigrated from Latin America, approach their identity and their self-expression differently in different spaces?
NR: I would say that representation really matters. Again, it’s so interesting how you having diverse experiences as a diverse person becomes privileges when you meet other diverse people who didn’t have that. As a queer Latin person living in North Carolina, being able to tell you that most of my chosen family comprises of queer Latin people, I was able to recreate these beautiful collectivist ideals, but with queerness involved. Not everyone gets that. And I didn’t have that for a long time. This is three or four years where I’ve had--and thinking in that mode, I can say that I’m able to operate in any way that I want to, because I’ve learned that, but my identities definitely were separate, because it was easy to come off as one single thing. Usually, ‘one-dimensional’ means that you were less seen.
Going to that, I think about my friends that I met in Nashville, specifically one friend. She’s a queer Latin woman of color, and I was really shocked when she said that me and my roommate were the first two other queer people of color she ever met, because she’s from Iowa. And I was like, “what the hell are you”--no, not Iowa, Idaho! Like, an hour outside of Boise. I was like, “okay, you’re near an urban area”--and she really lives in Oregon, but it’s rural Oregon, because it’s next to Idaho. But she’s like, “oh, my town--half of it is Mexican.” Because she’s Mexican. So, I’m like, “oh, my god.” Just hearing her story and seeing how she evolved within the two years that I was in Nashville, I saw what I was able to get in a more incremental way, throughout life. Just seeing how it was freeing for her to be around us. I remember her crying in moments. Like, she had a really toxic relationship with one of her best friends from Idaho who actually moved--this is such a messy story. They both moved so that the friend could go to the Vanderbilt program that I was in. Quickly realized that this person was subjected to a lot of norms that made her feel disempowered, because she doesn’t navigate or communicate in the same ways as the friend that she’s not friends with. Part of that realization was seeing me and my roommate at the time. I look back at her, and her experience, and my experience, and it’s so weird to see that be so innate in people. And seeing that kind of splitting of who I was, as an identity, really left when I hit 21, 22. They were that age when they came, so it was interesting how when you graduate college, if you didn’t get that same experience in college, is when you start really recognizing all of who you are. I think there’s less norms, because you’re still kind of in a bubble. I realized that this person’s identities were trying to become one, yet people or outside stuff, norms, were the cause of her feeling so disconnected from her Latin identity for such a long time, because the queerness was an accepting part that she found in high school and in college, which usually meant a White queer space that she had to either adapt to or get used to.
MP: Going off that, and looking a bit more at the intersection of queer identities and Latinx identities, what do you think about the term ‘Latinx’ itself? I know there’s been a lot of debate around it, at least in mainstream media in the U.S., and I’d like to hear what you think about that.
NR: Yeah. I’m so fortunate for my grad program because it’s allowed me to reflect. I’m like, “let’s just put some logic into the conversation.” I would love to get people in a room where it would magically solve everything, but… ‘Latine’, obviously, is another one, because it recognizes the language for what it is, and provides a solution internally. I think ‘Latinx’ provides a solution that’s not external, just hybrid. There are Latin people that made that here. Yes, it involved a lot of non-Latin people in academia, but that doesn’t mean that Latin people were not involved in that. I am all for all of them, but that’s something that I think is contextual. I think the reason why some people don’t like ‘Latinx’ is because that wasn’t their experience; and their experience of external words being put on them might make them feel very combative. I think it’s just really understanding why people get defensive, and learning ‘what do you give to those folks, in those moments, to release them from that?’ At the end of the day, we still all know what we’re talking about. ‘Latino’, ‘Latina’, ‘Latin’, ‘Latinx’, ‘Latine’; we all know what we’re talking about. Yet there is such a huge rift, and it’s just--because we already talk so much about validation, it’s just them making sure that this one thing that made them feel seen, and connected to so many people, and history, is being shifted or changed. Again, going back to the whole resistant of change deal. It’s not necessarily because they just hate it; the exposure has not given them the comfort that they feel they need all the time so that they feel safe. And then it goes to the words.
MP: Yeah. Also, what do you think, and what experiences have you had, regarding, more broadly, the way the Spanish language is gendered?
NR: It’s so interesting, because it’s my first language but I had to relearn Spanish to be an interpreter and be able to do professional translation and interpreting. It’s so instilled, as a language. It’s so hard for me to sit here and dissect. There should be a dedicated fifteen minutes to every forum, or workshop, or panel, dedicated around unpacking that. Getting people outside of the biases of like, “well, that’s just the language.” My brain’s like, “I don’t want to do more work; that’s just what it is.” However, it’s been really easy for me to add that “-e”, instead of the “-o/-a”, for certain non-specific pronouns, like “amigo”. And also, because it sounds cool, like “amigue”. You’ll hear Latin organizers use the “-e” in other gender-expansive ways. I definitely have used it a lot more when folks who have come in here are Spanish-speaking only. But again, that’s not all of the time, and I’m telling you specific times when I use certain things and when I don’t, and most of the times it’s just gendered.
It’s really, really hard when you’re talking about trans people, especially to my parents. I switch to Spanglish, because it’s a lot easier to bring in trans inclusion, or transness, without it feeling like someone is thinking they understand what you’re saying, but, because it’s gendered Spanish, we don’t know what they’re actually thinking. If you say “they” in English, you have a much better chance of them being like, “oh, we’re talking about a gender-fluid person or non-binary person. If you do that in Spanish, it just stops the whole conversation. If you’re like, “elle”, which is the gender-neutral word of--it may really jitter someone up. They may be like, “we’re not even just talking about gender anymore; now I’m just confused.” I think that if someone knows Spanglish, it’s easier to interpret queerness, which goes back to the ‘Latinx’ thing. I think Spanglish is really what is driving a lot of these pushes for new gender expansion. Not to say that Latin America’s not doing that on its own, but I think the gendering is interesting.
I would like to hear someone from Latin America talk about it, but even then, what I hear most about from trans folks is they poke fun at it. You hear a lot of them using it for comedic jokes, or to throw shade back at someone. The same things we hear about queer communities here. You kind of find a different way, whether that’s not actually changing the language…maybe you poke fun at it through using it. I think that’s what you see too.
MP: Yeah, that’s really interesting. You mentioning how you’ll use the term ‘Latine’, or adding “-e” or “-ue” onto words, especially if there are only-Spanish-speaking people who come to visit the Center--could you talk a bit more about what the LGBTQ Center of Durham, and specifically the LGBTQ Youth Center, does to support the community?
NR: Yeah, that’s a really good question. Unfortunately, when there is not someone who is bilingual / has done interpreting in nonprofit settings, there’s a lot of educa--professional experience that really provides an advantage to implement that here. I think, before me, the Center did a really good job of trying to translate captions for posts that weren’t long; because of the algorithms and that BS, certain lengths of posts would not capture as much people on the feed. But there would also be copies of Spanish translations for the World Fair, HIV testing…the services that we do either routinely or once a month were always translated. If you don’t have an interpreter on staff, whether that’s its own thing or someone that has the capacity to interpret for the staff, like me, then you have to look at it as a money--it’s a budget. Language justice then becomes a budget line. I think because here, they never had that many clients, but now there’s specifically one Spanish-speaking client, from Colombia, who needs interpreting, so we’re able to offer that. It’s cool to know that--no one was denied offerings here because of it--but that now there’s more access that can be had. I would say that there’s just more access.
And I do have connections to Latin folks in different orgs, but I say that all to say that I think a good community will have a succession plan. So, leaving “what does language justice for this org look like?” Right now, it’s actively being done, because we’re figuring it out. But eventually, I would want to write down the things that you can do, to have more of…language justice written down, and have people know “these are the steps to do”, “this is the people to contact”, “this is the org that does interpretation that also does queer events’ interpretation. Those types of things. But for now, it’s definitely me providing those services for Spanish-speaking people.
MP: Looking more broadly at language access, what do you think the state of language access is in Durham and in North Carolina?
NR: I think language access is really, really apparent in city government structures in Durham. Everything is at least bilingual. Actually, if I look closer, there’s other languages there being represented, but everything is very bilingual, even in the community health centers. I think Durham has a lot of really good reputations for language access for Spanish-speaking clients. Now, when we leave Spanish-speaking clients and talk about language access in general, North Carolina--now, I’m understanding my own privilege, because I speak both of those languages. When I went to San Francisco for a conference, I was like, “woah, language access requires so much money. And it can be a lot more.” Like, at that conference, they had Spanish translation, and they had American Sign Language translation, and Spanish Sign Language translation, on top of interpreters for smaller communities. It was interesting: even if there’s only one queer person that may come from one specific country in Durham, that person exists. And it is unfortunate that we’re not at the place where every center can be equipped as a polyglot, or a Rosetta Stone, to answer folks. I think, in that sense, Durham is a lot like other places that are not as big as San Francisco, where a lot of this money for combinations and services and accesses being put into--we’re not New York; we’re not LA, Atlanta, so you see community initiatives, and I think there’s a lot of that here with Spanish-speaking--I think you see that legally with Spanish-speaking, in general. You go to other places and it is a little bit more robust, or you go to other places and it’s way less. Rural areas are way more impacted by this. But there is also a push to support rural workers who are predominantly known to only speak a certain language as well. There’s a lot of work being done. Is that enough? Probably not.
MP: Thank you. Going back to Ecuador, I’d like to ask--and this may get into a lot of what you’ve already said, so don’t feel like you have to repeat anything--but how do you think that your life might have gone differently if you had kept living in Ecuador?
NR: Yeah, so I think the mask would have still been on [laughter] past a certain point. I don’t think I would have come out at eighteen. But then again, you might see the same thing you see here, where friends are a huge support for that queer acceptance. And that’s helpful for me to know; maybe I could have found a good friend group. I wouldn’t know on that end. If I had to grow up there, I probably would have been miserable. Knowing also that the banks were closing, who knows what my parents--that’s what they were in, so who knows what our financial situation would have been? My possibilities would have been severely limited. I would have had to stay in line, because there would have been not as much of diverse experiences. At least in the U.S., I had access to media, to TV, to school, to so many different groups of people, because I also went to diverse schools, that I was able to realize there’s way more ways of living. I think that was helpful, for me to know that I will have my own chance to do that. I don’t know if that was my saving grace, and I don’t know if that would have been apparent for me in Ecuador. I think it would have really been like, “I don’t know if this can be enough.”
MP: You mentioned media just now, having access to more media in the U.S., so that made me want to ask: what are your thoughts about representation in media, either in the U.S. or in Ecuador, of people who are queer, and Latine, and also neurodivergent?
NR: I think it’s really important. Especially the last one. I think neurodivergence is so taboo in so many different cultures, just to talk about it, and even feel empowered about something that’s deemed a disability. That being said, I feel like that’s its own forefront, and is really starting to come up, but still lagging. When it comes to queer Spanish Latine identities, I think it’s so important because it’s affirming in a way that you never think of. I would not have come out, being non-binary, if it wasn’t for the show “We’re Here.” Do you know that show? It’s on HBO.
MP: I honestly do not. Would you like to explain it?
NR: Yeah, it’s three drag queens from “RuPaul’s Drag Race”: Shangela--just so everyone knows the context--Shangela, Bob the Drag Queen, and Eureka did it. It’s like “Queer Eye”, but not. They would go to different rural towns throughout America that are super conservative, and would help queer folks there throw on a drag show and get in drag for the first time. It’s been such a diverse show. Season Two or Three, the one that recently came out, there was one specific episode about a queer, non-binary person coming out to their parents. I never would have thought--again, fear of change; I’m still an immigrant, so it goes down to me--as quickly as it was, seeing this two-minute scene, this whole idea of, “oh, I can’t come out” completely went out the door.
MP: Oh, wow.
NR: Because I was like, “oh, this is so easy. This person doesn’t know how to speak Spanish that well; their parents don’t know how to speak English that well; I don’t have that barrier.” And they’re way more feminine-presenting than I’ve ever been, but still saying, “I’m non-binary; this is who I am; this is part of transness” was really, really powerful. I actually started crying. I was crying just because I didn’t realize how I never saw me on camera, and seeing all those identities at the same time was mind-blowing. That everything is possible. And them having some more exposure be on that person; having to talk to them; because they were also nineteen, so they were getting combative. So, I was able to see, “okay, Niccolo: I can see how your defensiveness of--yes, it’s okay to be defensive, but is that gonna help the situation? No.” I think all of those things were important to understand. There was a dynamic of it being human, and family, and having an external support system saying, “hey, we hear you. This is really hard on them too.” And having someone getting to ask them questions about their queerness, and the parents having to hear someone else being like, “I am listening to you.” I think that was all so important for me to come out. I think I came out like a week later--
MP: Oh, wow.
NR: To my parents.
MP: You talking about that show made me think back to how you said that you yourself do drag. First of all, was that show influential also in you starting that? And what has the experience been like for you, doing drag?
NR: Yeah, I’m glad…we should talk about drag. Drag, I think, is another reason why I blended both my Latin identity and queer identity. And neurodivergence. I have ADHD, and I have symptoms of borderline personality disorder. However, that shit is expensive to get properly diagnosed, and so I only have a diagnosis for ADHD. However, being also spiritual and Ecuadorian, I think that there is a such a divine opportunity to see through being categorized as someone who has personality challenges. Also, understanding that I am non-binary, and realizing that there’s so many ways of looking at it. I think drag really unlocked that for me, because I was able to create and transform myself into this completely feminine person that is me but feels completely empowered and, in all senses, the way--the air is very thin; it just feels light; it feels breathable. When I’m in that suit of a person, I am me but I feel so powerful.
I think that I knew what drag was my senior year of high school. I would have known earlier, but, again, ESL. My first year of theater, they kept talking about “Drag Race”, and I thought that they were talking about NASCAR. I’m just like, “well, I’m not gonna entertain this conversation”, because I’m like, “how the hell are these three people, who I know are gay as hell, talking about that?” Then, one day, I kept hearing them talking about this person named Shangela, and I was like, “that does not sound like a NASCAR driver.” So, I looked it up, and I was like, “oh, this is drag queens.” Watching “Drag Race” was really helpful because there was so many different types of people. And then “We’re Here” only started probably three years ago, and that was even more wholesome, because I was able to see that anything is possible. It wasn’t just ten contestants going to a show, it was “we’re going to rural areas that are actually scary, and we’re gonna support either people there that are trying to create safe spaces for queer people or are queer themselves.” I think that was really empowering, and good to feel. And I think that being when I was really starting my drag was helpful to know that “you’ve got this. And everything else comes next.” And knowing these people were so empowered by being in drag for the first time is a reminder of how much that can do for a person.
MP: I think that’s all the questions I’d like to ask. Is there anything else that you would like to share?
NR: No. Oh, well, I guess my drag name is Kali Fuchis. If you don’t know Kali Uchis--
MP: I do know Kali Uchis. [laughs]
NR: Yeah, and then ‘Fuchis’: do you know what that means?
MP: I don’t; could you explain that?
NR: Yeah, it’s Spanish slang for ‘stinky’. So, it’s camp. Just like most drag names are camp. It’s a play on Kali Uchis. So that is really fun. I’m glad to end on that note. I think my name is really, really fun, because when there are queer Latin people in the audience at a drag show, everyone is really silent because they’re truly trying to figure out what the hell my name is. They know Kali, and they’re trying to figure out--they know most drag queen names are punny, so they’re like, “what the hell is that?” But then you hear these moments of laughter, deep laughter; they’re like “that’s so stupid!” And it’s like “yes”, because that slang is so specific to you as a baby. It’s used when a kid is outside for a really long time, or doesn’t want to take his shower. It’s specifically for a little kid. So, you don’t hear that again; no one’s gonna be like, “oh, that trash stinks--”--they’re not gonna say that trash is fuchis. You would laugh because you’re like, “that’s for a child”; it’s supposed to be for a baby only, or a young toddler. So, hearing it out loud, you’re like, “what?” It’s so affirming for me to know that other queer Latin people are here, and in the audience. And that, I think, usually helps boost my energy when I’m about to perform.
MP: That does make me think of one more question. What do you think about the importance of not only focusing on the struggles that queer, Latine, neurodivergent, et cetera people face, but also the joy in their lives?
NR: I definitely think that’s really important. I would say the top things right now in a lot of queer Latine people are: listening to really good music, trying to clear your debt [laughs], and going out and dancing. I think, a lot of times, there’s such a big push to just dance and to have fun, and to talk, and to be in community. And I think all of those things are so important for people to realize. People are obsessed with Bad Bunny, they’re obsessed with Kali Uchis; we’re seeing it worldwide. Just knowing that we do all the things that everyone else does, but also knowing that, like, potlucks is a great big thing that is a Latin thing. Like, one of my new drag daughters has been obsessed with getting people over to do a potluck, and they did it, but they want to keep doing one. It’s a big thing, once you get into that rhythm of having community, to either expect someone else--, or expect at some point for there to be a gathering. And I think that’s always really nice, to know that we’re getting that back even though we’re not with our families anymore; that we’re doing that within the queer Latin gatherings, and that there’s just so much laughter happening.
MP: Thank you. I think for real this time, that is my last question.
NR: Mhm! Thank you so much.
MP: Yeah, thank you so much for talking with me!
NR: Yeah, of course!
END OF INTERVIEW
[01:06:08]
Transcriber: Myri Prause
9 April 2023
Dublin Core
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Title
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R-1016 -- Roditti, Niccolo Abel.
Description
An account of the resource
Niccolo Roditti, who was born in 1996 in Guayaquil, Ecuador and moved to the U.S. at age three, is the Assistant Director of the LGBTQ Youth Center of Durham, part of the LGBTQ Center of Durham. Niccolo discusses conflicts and other intersections of queerness and traditional Ecuadorian culture. In addition to describing the experiences of queer people in Ecuador versus in various parts of the U.S., they explore their own simultaneous navigation of their queer and Latine identities, especially in the context of their family. They came out to their parents and later their extended family despite facing homophobia/heteronormativity and machismo, as well as the pressure to maintain the image of a “Catholic, traditional Ecuadorian family”. Connected to that, Niccolo talks about collectivism in Ecuadorian culture, and in queer spaces. They also discuss how socioeconomic status relates to queer Latine experiences. Additionally, Niccolo examines the presence and representation of queer and Latine people in a number of spaces and contexts, including educational institutions, media, the traditionally gendered Spanish language, and drag, in which they perform.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-04-03
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29361">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
Format
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R1016_Audio.mp3
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/837ff0a94570b5e7b4b50ddd6637c0ef.mp3
26fab603addf0bdec8339fa03cf4848e
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/2478ef0c5ee734749865edcbd2de33bf.pdf
b036c00a47d0b657791ae14ccfd9fb33
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-1014
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
Fecha
2023-04-18
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Bautista, Elsi.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Seamstresses
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1979
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Valladolid -- Lempira -- Honduras
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Raleigh -- Wake County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-88.70652770996094 14.153736114501953),1979,1;POINT(-78.6390989 35.7803977),2005,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Bautista-Ayala, Johana.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Spanish
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
This interview was conducted in Spanish by Johana Bautista-Ayala with her mother, Elsi Bautista. Throughout the interview, Elsi tells us her family’s perspective and history on their migration experience from Honduras to the United States due to environmental factors, primarily the disaster caused by Hurricane Mitch. Elsi recounts much of this dramatic experience such as: the lack of information to prepare for what was coming and in the aftermath; the destruction of homes, loss of livestock, and other economic challenges; life sheltering at a school even after schools returned in session; the loss of community leadership, including the death of the governor; and the aid sent by the United States, much of which Elsi believes never reached the affected communities.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Elsi Bautista by Johana Bautista-Ayala, 18 April 2023, R-1014, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29358
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Communications technology; Education; Migratory experience; Receiving communities; Environmental Factors
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Costureras
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Español
Es: Resumen
Esta entrevista fue realizada en español por Johana Bautista-Ayala con su madre, Elsi Bautista. A lo largo de la entrevista, Elsi nos cuenta su perspectiva e historia de familia acerca de su experiencia migratoria de Honduras a Estados Unidos debido a factores medioambientales, principalmente el desastre causado por el huracán Mitch. Elsi relata gran parte de esta dramática experiencia, como: la falta de información para prepararse para lo que se avecinaba y las secuelas; la destrucción de hogares, la pérdida de ganado y otros problemas económicos; la vida refugiada en una escuela incluso después de que los alumnos volvieran a entrar en sesión; la pérdida del liderazgo de la comunidad, incluyendo la muerte del gobernador; y la ayuda enviada por los Estados Unidos, gran parte de la cual Elsi cree que nunca llegó a las comunidades afectadas.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Elsi Bautista por Johana Bautista-Ayala, 18 April 2023, R-1014, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Comunidades receptoras; Educación; Experiencia migratoria; Factores ambientales; Tecnología de las comunicaciones
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
[00:00:03] Johana Bautista: Hola, mi nombre es Johana Bautista, soy estudiante de la
Universidad de Chapel Hill en North Carolina y hoy tengo el gusto de entrevistar a Elsi Bautista. Hola Elsi, ¿Me puedes contar un poquito sobre tu historia de migración?
[00:00:19] Elsi Bautista: Sí, hace como veinte, veintitrés años yo llegué al país. Vine, conseguí una visa para México y de México para acá. Llegué en avión, pero sí me tardé como tres meses para hacer el proceso porque no fue tan fácil para entrar aquí a este país.
JB: Y el procedimiento para poder recibir una visa para ir a México, ¿fue largo y difícil o de qué consistía?
EB: Sí, teníamos que conseguir muchos papeles para pagar abogados y tener conexiones para que ellos pudieran ayudarnos y el proceso fuera más rápido.
JB: ¿Y fue caro me imagino?
EB: Sí. Mucho dinero.
JB: ¿Y cómo pudo obtener todo ese dinero para poder?
EB: Yo trabajaba en una fábrica de maquilas y ya mi esposo, él ya ha tenido un año que él estaba acá y él me ayudaba con el dinero.
JB: ¿Y qué año fue que se vino su esposo?
EB: Él se vino en 1999 y yo me vine en el 2000.
JB: Y ya me imagino que ustedes saben sobre lo que ocurrió en Honduras y en Centroamérica con huracán Mitch, que ocurrió en 1998. Le quiero preguntar específicamente a este evento. ¿Qué se acuerda usted del huracán Mitch?
EB: Yo no miraba ni las noticias, yo me levanté como un día normal, fui al trabajo, cuando yo llegué todas las personas estaban en huelga porque dijeron no vamos a trabajar porque todo esto aquí está en lo bajo y se va a inundar y tenemos que regresarnos para nuestras casas. Entonces cuando ya regresamos a las casas ya no había ni transportación, me costó llegar a la casa y no pude ni entrar donde yo tenía las cosas. Todavía estaba mi esposo y él fue a poner las camas en lo alto en unas mesas para que no se mojaran y nos fuimos para conseguir albergue en otros lugares donde era más seguro y allí estuvimos y siempre el agua entraba y eso fue muy difícil porque ya se aproximaba. Fue en octubre entonces en los trabajos eso fue muy difícil sin dinero y en las noticias se miraban tanta cosa sobre las personas. Los niños y los cadáveres se miraban nadando. Y también exageraban las noticias tal vez o si sucedió eso porque se llenó completamente y nadie estaba preparado para eso.
JB: Y tú mencionaste de la huelga que ocurrió. ¿Este día fue esta huelga comenzó mucho antes que viniera el huracán en preparación, u ocurrió el mismo día que el huracán tocó suelo?
EB: El mismo día que el huracán porque fue un domingo, el lunes por la mañana nosotros nos presentamos a trabajar. Entonces ya fue el lunes que ya comenzaba y ya se estaba llenando de agua porque toda la noche comenzó a la lluvia y parte del domingo y ya estaba el lunes fuerte entonces ya desde allí comenzó.
JB: ¿Y su casa estaba cerca de estas maquilas o estaba lejos?
EB: Yo estaba como a trece millas.
JB: ¿Cómo cuánto minutos?
EB: Sí, media hora.
JB: Media hora normalmente y ya como usted mencionó que la transportación estuvo bien difícil este día. ¿Cuánto tiempo le tocó esperar para poder llegar a su casa?
EB: Sí, había taxistas, porque eran más directos y costó, me imagino como unos cien lempiras.
JB: ¿Pero y de tiempo ¿Cuánto fue?
EB: Como hora y media.
JB: Wow, okay. Bueno muchas gracias por compartir su día enfrentando el huracán y usted menciono de los albergues que habían en preparación para cuidar de las personas. ¿Esto era para toda la comunidad o solo era para las personas que trabajaban en las maquilas?
EB: Si para toda la comunidad porque la lluvia era tan fuerte que se llevaba a las casas y entonces las escuelas las necesitaron para eso colegios todos los lugares así hospitales, pero casi todo estaba colapsado porque la mayoría de personas vivían en lo bajo y no estaban completamente ellos no nunca había pasado un desastre tan horroroso como eso.
JB: ¿Y fue el gobierno que dijo que todos se fueran para estas escuelas o fue la misma comunidad que dijo “vámonos todos para las escuelas?”
EB: Sí fue el gobierno que dijo de que como eso las escuelas y todo eso eran del gobierno y así todas las personas ayudando una con otra.
JB: Sí. Bueno me imagino que usted sabe de los dos huracanes que ha ocurrido como huracán Irma y también el huracán María que afectó a mucho de Centroamérica y también Puerto Rico. Yo digo eso porque cuando pasó estos eventos siempre hay un caos qué pasa que la gente comienza a alocarse, no hay comida y no hay muchos materiales. Le quiero preguntar específicamente con Huracán Mitch cuando esto ocurrió en Honduras. ¿Cómo estaban todas las cosas en las tiendas? Me imagino que fue difícil encontrar comida o aún estaba en la etapa que había todavía comida.
EB: Sí, había porque nadie creía, nadie pensó que eso iba a ser fuerte porque las personas que jugaban fútbol estaban ese domingo haciendo todas las actividades, todo era normal. El problema fue ya en la noche cuando comenzó el agua, pero fuerte, que ya se empezaron a tapar todos los lugares los desagües, las mangueras de agua, porque había mucha basura en las calles, y en nada de preparación.
JB: ¿Había ocurrido un huracán antes de esta fecha?
EB: No, que yo sepa no, él fue el primero que yo pasé.
JB: Sí. Y después ¿Cuánto tiempo estuvo usted ahí en el albergue, esperando el huracán pasar?
EB: Como un mes.
JB: ¿Y su casa o su hogar como quedó después del huracán?
EB: Cuando yo llegué todavía el agua estaba por la por la mesa y ya todas las cosas que habíamos puesto así arriba no estaban tan mojadas. Pero paredes y todas las cosas los trastes todo eso andaba nadando todavía. Ahí tenemos que tener cuidado porque era el agua se miraba sucia. Entonces no si uno para caminar se podía meter en algún hoyo, algún vidrio, alguna cosa, eso era terrible.
JB: ¿Y lograron salvar la mayoría de sus cosas o todo estaba mojado?
EB: Sí algunas cosas se salvaron las que no perjudicaban el agua. Pero la mayoría de las cosas si se perdieron.
JB: ¿Y tuvieron que ir a comprar cosas nuevas después, me imagino?
EB: Si trabajar para comprarla eso costó.
JB: ¿Y sus amigos también enfrentaron situaciones iguales a la suya o fue completamente diferentes?
EB: Algotras completamente diferente porque ellos perdieron la casa y se quedaron completamente sin nada y lo que tenían era solamente que les ayudaban para que ellos pasaran en las escuelas. Llegó como en febrero, ellos comienzan a abrir las clases los maestros y todavía eso estaba lleno de personas que no tenían casa, no tenían nada. Ahí vivían completamente.
JB: ¿Y qué decían los maestros con las personas viviendo ahí?
EB: Tuvieron que suspender clases porque no había ni internet ni nada, sino que todo eso se atrasó.
JB: ¿Y qué pasó con la electricidad, se fue completamente durante el huracán?
EB: Sí, mucho tiempo se fue la electricidad, no había nada y me recuerdo cuando ya casi estaba pasando el huracán. Vino el—no el gobernador—o el alcalde de Tegucigalpa, que es la capital de Honduras, fue dijo voy a ir a revisar cómo se ve, el cómo ha quedado Honduras, y empezó a pilotear con yo creo el acompañante el helicóptero, y a las pocas horas se derribó, murió él.
JB: ¿Murió el alcalde?
EB: Si fue más triste. Después que estaba completamente el país con problemas ya el alcalde había perdido la vida.
JB: Y me imagino que esto llegó a todas las noticias, no solo de Honduras, sino que también afuera. ¿Cree usted que esto colocó más ayuda para Honduras o afectó las noticias enteramente?
EB: No sé yo, como pasaría eso sí pero sí se recibió de otros países apoyaron porque ellos mandaron a hacer casas, programas, así para las personas que ellas pudieran ir a trabajar porque no había dinero, sino que con trabajo ellos podían ayudar para ir haciendo las colonias, las casas y entregarles a las personas que completamente no tenían habían quedado sin nada. Pero eso duró como dos años para que las casas las terminaran porque ellos mismos se terminaban. La trabajaban para terminarla.
JB: Y usted mencionó que en su casa--. Bueno en su casa no más tenía daño de agua. ¿Hace cuánto tiempo tomó para poder recuperar todas las cosas? ¿Volver a colocar todo de nuevo como estaba? ¿Arreglar las paredes?
EB: Sí, como un mes.
JB: En un mes pudieron.
EB: Recuerdo todavía lo que usamos para limpiar olores así para limpiar el piso, las paredes, después no podíamos ni olerlo porque nos recordaba mucho.
JB: ¿Eso era un olor fuerte?
EB: Ajá un olor fuerte porque era para desinfectarse aún las paredes y todo eso y sí sentíamos este nos recordaba [laughs] y si, sentíamos el olor ese que nos recordaba el huracán.
JB: ¿Y cómo sacaron el agua del de la casa?
EB: Ya fue bajando, este--. Empezaron a limpiar las cunetas ellas le llaman ahí este a limpiarla, a quitarles la basura y ya un poco fue a saliendo el agua.
JB: ¿Y tuvieron que botar algunas cosas, me imagino?
EB: Sí.
JB: ¿La ropa?
EB: Sí, todo lo que estaba mojado, lo que quedó completamente perdido.
JB: ¿Y usted mencionó que su esposo colocó la cama más alta, la cama se pudo salvar o tampoco?
EB: Sí, se salvó porque la parte de abajo sí eso sí estaba mojado. Pero se la pusimos al sol y así.
JB: ¿Y el colchón quedó mojado o?
EB: No, solo se secó.
JB: ¿Solo fue la base entonces?
EB: Si.
JB: Y había otro ¿Cómo se dice? Furniture que quedó dañado?
EB: Sí las mesas, trastes todo.
JB: Todo quedó. ¿Y eso tuvieron que reponerlo ustedes de su propio dinero?
EB: Sí.
JB: ¿No hubo ni una ayuda del gobierno?
EB: No, ellos lo que ayudaban era más con comida.
JB: ¿Y también con las casas?
EB: Sí, porque ahí en el trabajo cuando ya nosotros regresamos, ellos sí nos ayudaban. Y nos daban provisiones, cajas con materiales para que ya pudiéramos cocinar. Cosas enlatadas me imagino que otros países habían enviado para que nos dieran.
JB: Y en su trabajo. ¿Cómo les ayudaron, les dieron tiempo libre para poder?
EB: Si dieron las personas que completamente habían perdido todo para que se volvieran a nivelar si les dieron tiempo libre.
JB: ¿Y les dieron algún bono para ayudarles?
EB: Sí les dieron bono.
JB: Sí. Bueno, me alegro de que les pudieron ayudar. Ahora le quiero preguntar si ahora que está en los Estados Unidos, ¿usted ha notado algún aumento a lo largo de los años en la migración, a causa de los factores ambientales?
EB: ¿Cómo? No lo entiendo, ¿qué ambientales cómo?
JB: Como huracanes, tornados o también diferentes factores como está muy caliente o como países que están bien cerca lo que se llama el equator a veces son muy calientes para eso entonces ellos tienen que salir de esos lugares. También son factores que causan que vengan y salgan de su país. Viviendo aquí en North Carolina, los Estados Unidos, ¿Cómo ha visto usted tal vez a sus amigos en el trabajo? Que las familias han venido a causa de estos factores.
EB: Sí, aquí incluso dieron papeles. Todavía hay personas que están este un permiso de trabajo para que ellos pudieran trabajar desde ese tiempo todavía ellos los están renovando cada dieciocho meses ellos les están este dando esos papeles ese permiso de trabajo todavía a los nicaragüenses y a los hondureños.
JB: ¿Este programa existe hoy en día?
EB: Existe hoy en día desde 1998 hasta 2023.
JB: ¿Hubo un programa así para hondureños que fueron afectados por el huracán?
EB: Sí. Todos los que estaban acá adentro este ellos recibieron para que les pudieran ayudar allá los legalizaron o sea dándoles ese permiso para que ellos puedan obtener un trabajo mejor, licencia y todo eso. Este para que les ayudaran ahí a los familiares.
JB: ¿Y esto consiste en una visa para ellos quedarse aquí o y regresar o es una visa que ayuda para ellos obtener papeles y trabajar?
EB: No, solamente es para trabajar. Ya para poder viajar tiene que ser otra aplicación, pero sí este hace como cinco años creo ya ellos pudieron viajar, algunas personas, pero tenían que ir a hacer algo de emergencia allá al país, pero tenían tantos años de no ver a sus familiares entonces les obtuvieron como un permiso para poder salir y entrar. Entonces sí muchas personas se pudieron reunir con sus familiares.
JB: ¿Y usted tenía familia aquí cuando usted llegó de Honduras?
EB: Sí él ya mi esposo él estaba acá y él consiguió porque en el trayecto del huracán el
llegó acá a Estados Unidos y a él le dieron el permiso de trabajo comenzó el con eso entonces cuando yo vine acá por medio de él yo conseguí también y ya después entró otras leyes como las dos cuarenta y cinco I por medio de trabajo las personas que realmente necesitaban como jardineros, trabajos pesados, y mi esposo calificó para eso. Entonces dieron como un paquete familiar. Entonces allí venían todos los hijos podían recibir la residencia y la esposa en el paquete todo completo.
JB: ¿Y procedimiento fue largo o fue rápido?
EB: Sí, fue largo. Ya cuatro años.
JB: ¿Y fue caro?
EB: Sí. Porque con los abogados hoy en día es más fácil pero antes con se trataba la tecnología muy despacio y uno para conseguir pruebas, poderlas enviar. Si la prueba no estaba legal como ellos querían, otro procedimiento y entonces muchas veces tuvimos que algunas aplicaciones se cancelaban. Entonces tuvimos que volver a pagar.
JB: ¿Y volver a aplicar?
EB: Y volver aplicar, correcto.
JB: Entonces volviendo a aplicar. ¿Esto colocó más tiempo, verdad? Entonces el total de los--usted dijo que cuatro años--el total de toda su aplicación, incluyendo el tiempo de que se tuvo que volver a comenzar su aplicación, por cuatro años.
EB: Sí.
JB: Sí. Bueno. ¿Y está al tanto del aumento de la migración de Honduras después del huracán Mitch María o Irma?
EB: No ha habido otra ayuda solo eso del para así de migración que han legalizado solamente eso no ha habido otra ayuda de migración.
JB: ¿Y hubo alguien más en su familia fue afectado acaso de huracán?
EB: Si más la familia de mi esposo porque ellos vivían en una parte donde el mar está cerca entonces digamos Ceiba Colón todas esas áreas como que hay muchos ríos, lagunas y todo eso se quedó allí completamente como un mar, como arena, todo. Entonces y las personas allí sufrieron mucha. Yo conocí a personas que habían perdido todo y cantaban la canción hasta música hicieron y cuando yo fui en diciembre a visitarlo como en tres días pudimos lograr llegar porque los puentes se habían caído por la lluvia entonces estaban los buses de un lugar los trasportaba. Ya nosotros teníamos que con las maletas, la hoja de equipaje, todo caminar con ellos y pasar allí por lo abajo casi por el agua y no sé cómo ellos sabían inventados pero que no podíamos caminando nosotros para poder pasar al otro lado y de allá el otro bus nos subíamos y íbamos y cuando yo iba con una cuñada y ella los niños los había dejado con la suegra y entonces cuando lo llegó y los miró estaban tan delgaditos sin ropa y sin nada lo que habían conseguido que les habían donado con eso estaban. Sí habían sufrido los niños.
JB: ¿Y ellos se habían quedado atorados allí? ¿No podían salir?
EB:O sea ellos tuvieron bastante tiempo. para que ellos se recuperaran. Fue más lento porque no podían llevar cosas porque como había muchos puentes para poder allí solo por aire tal vez helicóptero o algo que podía aterrizar le costó más la ayuda para que llegara allí.
JB: ¿Y usted cree que había otra manera de que el gobierno pudiera ayudarlos ya que estaban tan lejos tal vez arreglando los puentes más rápido?
EB: Ajá o barca haciendo por agua como más ayuda que ellos deberían de estar preparados sí, pero no porque eso lo ni ellos se esperaban porque todo lo normal nunca quizás habían pasado ese problema que ellos que nosotros tuvimos.
JB: ¿Y usted cree que ora con el tiempo el gobierno se ha podido preparar más en caso de que venga otro huracán igual al Mitch?
EB: Sí, hoy sí porque la tecnología también está avanzada y las personas ya hoy se ve que como más limpia las calles y hay más seguridad ellos están más pendientes.
JB: Y usted mencionó de la historia de su cuñada y sus hijos. ¿Ellos perdieron su casa?
EB: Sí ellos perdieron todo.
JB: Y ¿Cuánto tiempo tomó para que ellos pudieran recibir ayuda del gobierno para que pudieran hacer su casa de nuevo?
EB: Porque yo fui eso fue en octubre, fui en diciembre, eran dos meses me imagino como un año.
JB: ¿Fue largo el proceso?
EB: Si.
JB: ¿Y durante ese tiempo a dónde se quedaron?
EB: Ellos volvieron a construir la casa cómo pudieron así la hicieron de tierra y yo dormí allí cuando fui en diciembre todavía no lo habían terminado y con miedo estábamos porque el aire entraba y todo y sí fue difícil.
JB: ¿Pero ya no estaba más el agua, la inundación que estaba antes?
EB: No ya no.
JB: ¿Porque podía haber destruido la casa de tierra? ¿Verdad?
EB: Sí.
JB: ¿Y en esa área el agua se fue solo el impacto y después se fue o fue que quedó allí permaneció el agua del huracán?
EB: El agua se fue.
JB: Se fue.
EB: Sí.
JB: Y ¿En cuáles áreas fue impactó más que usted en Honduras?
EB: Como en las costas digamos en él se están como ahí está el Atlantic y el Pacífico entonces todos esos departamentos que están cerca del mar del océano eso fue casi un tsunami porque todo iba arrastrando.
JB: ¿Entonces no fue solo un huracán, sino que digamos fue un tsunami de todo?
EB: Sí todo eso porque se unió allí a se miraba allí en las noticias que las personas andaban con sus cadáveres, decían que no tenían dinero ni para poderlos enterrar a sus hijos que querían ayudas, iban a lugares a donde estaban ayudando, que por favor les ayudaran para que algunas personas se aprovechaban porque agarraban tal vez algún muerto tal vez no era ni familia de ellos, algún niño y decía “mire quería darle sepultura hijo, por favor, no me pueden dar dinero”. Tal vez ni era ni para eso, sino que para ellos el dinero.
JB: ¿Y esto ocurría todos los bastante durante tiempo, era como un scam? ¿No?
EB: Sí, porque como quién iba a poder tanta información si nadie tenía información.
JB: Y no había tecnología.
EB: Ni los nombres ni nada a los familiares.
JB: ¿Y entonces ellos preguntaba a la comunidad o preguntaban al gobierno por ayuda?
EB: Al gobierno.
JB: ¿Y el gobierno se les ayudaba?
EB: Sí les ayudaba porque ya como era una cadena ya las personas ya sabían de cómo obtener dinero me imagino.
JB: ¿Entonces podían reclamar solo una vez por persona o será que podían reclamar varios por mismo muerto digamos?
EB: Si me imaginó que por el mismo muerto pedían muchas personas porque ni sabían.
JB: ¿Usted sabe del procedimiento que ocurría para poder pedir el dinero del gobierno?
EB: No. Solo en las noticias que yo miraba.
EB: ¿Y nadie en su familia falleció a causa de este huracán?
JB: No, gracias a Dios. Solo pérdidas fueron, pero ya así no. Porque todos los animales que se tenían, todos esos se perdieron como las gallinas, las vacas, los cerdos, todos se ahogaron, más si estaban encerrados.
JB: ¿Sobrevivieron muy pocos o sobrevivieron casi nada?
EB: Casi nada.
JB: Y cuando usted estaba en el albergue cuando vino la catástrofe--. ¿O dónde estaba, en el momento donde el huracán tocó?
EB: En el momento que el huracán sí ya estaba ya en un lugar, en una casa donde estaba alto.
JB: ¿Escuchaba el viento y la tormenta?
EB: Sí.
JB: ¿Había ventanas?
EB: Sí.
JB: ¿Podía ver entonces qué es lo que estaba ocurriendo?
EB: Sí. Porque duró la tormenta casi una semana. Día y noche.
JB: Una semana. ¿Y estaban allí encerrados por una semana?
EB: Sí.
JB: ¿Tenían comida?
EB: Sí.
JB: ¿Solo enlatada?
EB: No, sí tenían comida.
JB: Y ¿Había personas que cocinaban o entre ustedes se ayudaban?
EB: Entre nosotros.
JB: ¿Y cada persona o cada familia cocinaba para sí sola o hacían una gran comida?
EB: Cada quien hacia su comida.
JB: Okay y más sobre su tiempo allí en el albergue. ¿Fue difícil encontrar, digamos paz, en esos momentos o estaban todavía en shock no sabían que es lo que estaba pasando allá afuera?
EB: Aha no sabíamos lo que estaba pasando. No teníamos la idea de que tan desastre era, solo mirar las noticias ajá y las personas que estaban aquí, llamaban, preguntaban.
JB: ¿Pero aún tenían acceso a ver televisión, no se había ido ni la antena, la comunicación aún estaba?
EB: Sí, ya como a la semana que se miraba que ya había regresado la luz y el cable y todo eso ya, sí, ya se miraba.
JB: ¿Pero cuando ustedes estaban encerrados tenían acceso a la tele?
EB: No, solo la radio.
JB: La radio. ¿Y no, no tenían acceso al teléfono, tampoco?
EB: No, tampoco.
JB: ¿Y cómo se comunicaban para afuera?
EB: No, solo estar viendo allí la lluvia y escuchar.
JB: ¿Y en la radio anunciaban a dónde iba, por dónde iba el huracán o nomás anunciaban las muertes o?
EB: Algunos periodistas exageraban, ya la gente ya ni quería escuchar tanta noticia porque algunas eran falsas decían y algo traen verdadera no se sabía que lo que realmente estaba sucediendo.
JB: ¿Y exageraban en los números de muertes o de cómo era el huracán?
EB: Sí.
JB: Okay. ¿Cómo se comunicó con su familia? ¿Cómo ellos sabían que eso estaba bien?
EB: Ya como cuando comenzaron ya las radios a abrir y entonces ya allí se empezó uno a llamar a decirle que todo estaba bien.
JB: ¿Y tenían que llamar a una radio especifica donde estaba su familia como algún departamento o era una radio de todo Honduras?
EB: Si una radio donde se escucha en todo en todo Honduras.
JB: ¿Y el anuncio de qué consistía?
EB: No, o sea uno llamaba, le avisaba a la familia que todo estaba bien.
JB: ¿Entonces no era a través de la radio, era nomás llamada normal?
EB: Si ya llamada normal.
JB: ¿Entonces usted se pudo contactar con su mamá y su otra familia?
EB: Si ya como en noviembre ella como al mes.
JB: ¿Tomó entonces un mes para poder saber si había si todo estaba bien?
EB: Si porque como eso costaba para poder viajar porque todos los puentes las conexiones eso estaban, no había transporte.
JB: ¿Y cuándo logró volver a ver a su familia?
EB: Ya como en enero.
JB: Entonces tomaron casi tres meses para poder verlos de nuevo.
EB: Si.
JB: ¿Y ya para enero la transportación estaba más rápida o aún estaba en desarrollo?
EB: Sí estaba despacio. Porque por algunos lugares no todavía no podían al otro lado no se esperaba.
JB: Y antes del huracán ¿Cuánto tiempo se tomaba para llegar a donde a la casa de su mamá?
EB: Me tardaba como una hora.
JB: ¿Y ya después del huracán?
EB: Si casi cinco horas, seis horas.
JB: ¿Y usted fue por largo tiempo a visitar su mamá o fue por poco tiempo en enero?
EB: Poco tiempo.
JB: Poco tiempo. ¿Y en ese poco tiempo usted pudo hablar con su mamá para ver cómo fueron los efectos allí donde ella estuvo?
EB: Sí. A ella no casi no porque vivía en lo alto. Casi no fue afectada.
JB: ¿No hubo daño entonces?
EB: No solo los ajá los animales que tenían algo lo había perdido y si la comida costaba que llegara todavía.
JB: ¿Y las casas estaban bien allí en el área de donde estaba su mamá?
EB: Sí, alguna, alguna parte sí sé se había rajado las paredes porque da mucha agua. Y, pero no nos--. No, casi cosas solo materiales, pero no vidas que se habían perdido.
JB: ¿No había inundaciones allí?
EB: No.
JB: ¿Adónde? ¿Estaba cerca su mamá en un departamento cerca del suyo o estaba un poquito más lejitos?
EB: Más lejitos.
JB: Okay. ¿Y allí donde estaba su mamá entonces usted dice que no hago ni un daño o no, el daño fue mínimo en comparación?
EB: Mínimo porque yo estaba en San Pedro Sula en Choloma, era la López allí sí, sí fue fuerte.
JB: ¿Y su esposo usted dice que tuvo que migrar a los Estados Unidos esto fue a causa del huracán o fue ya de su propio porque él quiso?
EB: Sí porque él quiso y también al ver que allí no había futuro.
JB: Y, perdón, en ese mes que ustedes estuvieron arreglando su casa. ¿fueron los dos trabajando a trayendo el dinero para poder pagar o fue uno más que el otro?
EB: Entre los dos trabajando porque yo en día comencé a trabajar en la maquila ya normal y el que comenzó a trabajar acá en Estados Unidos claro el dinero de él era se multiplicaba más.
JB: ¿Entonces usted miró ese cambio financiero cuando su esposo se vino para Estados Unidos?
EB: Si ya era diferente.
JB: Ya fue más fácil.
EB: Si más fácil la vida.
JB: ¿Y cuánto tiempo usted quedó allá en Honduras sola después que su marido se vino?
EB: Un año.
JB: Un año. ¿Y en año al cómo fueron los factores de él, lo que uno le llama post Hurricane--después del huracán? ¿Cómo fue esa vida, como se compara a la vida antes del huracán?
EB: Todas las personas solo hablaban de eso y tragedias que ese año como que como algunos perdieron sus familiares, algunos que habían perdido las casas y todo y habían quedado completamente sin nada. Esas personas cuando comenzaban a hablar uno les preguntaba empezaban a llorar. Se les miraba la tristeza que tenían en sus caras, en su rostro. El sufrimiento que ellos habían pasado.
JB: Y entonces digamos que Honduras estuvo de luto ¿Cuánto tiempo se cree que esto ocurrió?
EB: Mucho tiempo. Yo creo que hasta la vez las personas que estuvieron en ese momento y que perdieron sus familiares, sus cosas todavía. Se les quedó eso, nunca lo olvidan.
JB: ¿Usted estaba joven en este tiempo?
EB: Sí.
JB: Y ¿Cómo esta experiencia afectaría la vida de un niño?
EB: Porque las escuelas todo cerrado cuando se llegó--ellos estaban de vacaciones cuando se llegó--que ya tenían que regresar las escuelas estaban ocupadas por personas eso difícil para ellos porque la rutina y todo eso que ellos tenían, todo se atrasó.
JB: ¿Y usted no tenía niños en este momento?
EB: No. Estaba embarazada.
JB: ¿Y ya cuando tuvo su hijo fue allá en Honduras o aquí en los Estados Unidos?
EB: Allá en Honduras.
JB: ¿Cómo fue su experiencia o cómo cree usted que esa experiencia hubiera sido diferente si hubiera ocurrido antes del huracán?
EB: Hubiera sido mejor.
JB: ¿Y porque dice que hubiera sido mejor?
EB: Porque tanto ver personas sufridas y yo debía tener cuidado porque estaba empezando a salir estaban mis primeros meses para caminar para andar en lugares debía tener mucho cuidado y más las bacterias y todo que las enfermedades después vinieron pestes que las personas se enfermaban de tantas bacterias que habían quedado.
JB: ¿Y usted tenía cuidado en un hospital o una clínica durante ese tiempo cuando estaba embarazada?
EB: Si una clínica tenía de allí mismo del trabajo ellos me daban las clínicas los doctores que me estaban chequeando.
JB: ¿Y las clínicas estaban llenas de personas que se habían golpeado o que se habían o que habían tenido un accidente durante el huracán o ya casi ya había bajado cuando usted se embarazo?
EB: Sí, ya había ya había bajado.
JB: ¿Usted cree que el cuidado de la clínica hubiese sido diferente si hubiera ocurrido antes del huracán?
EB: Sí, claro, porque no estaban pendientes en tantas personas. Hasta los doctores porque allí fue allí el problema fue para todos allí, pobres, ricos y estudiados, no graduados para todo fue igual el impacto.
JB: Todos quedaron.
EB: Si todos quedó esa huella acá digamos.
JB: Y ahora reflexionando de evento ¿Qué cree que hubiera sido mejores formas del gobierno haber ayudado? Usted mencionó que ellos daban comida, daban casa, pero ¿Cuáles fueron cuáles son otras cosas que usted piensa que el gobierno pudo haber hecho?
EB: O sea dar medicina para las personas que realmente necesitaban y ayudar más y estar preparados. Por el desastre. O sea que ellos no estaban ni preparados, no tenían una agenda. “Mire si aquí viene un desastre en cuanto tiempo no podemos recuperar” nada de eso.
JB: Y usted mencionó que había unas que se aprovecharon y miraron a los muertos y decían que era su hijo y necesitaban del gobierno. ¿Cómo cree que el gobierno pudo haber facilitado este programa para que las personas recibieran lo que no era de ellos?
EB: Sí, llevar una contabilidad mejor que hubieran chequeado todo digamos la información, pero me imagino las personas sabían hacerlo como hoy en día tal vez existe lo mismo que hay personas que siempre quieren hacerse pasar o usando otras cosas que no son ni de ellos como robando e identidades.
JB: ¿Y el procedimiento de las personas en ese tiempo todo era papel, en papel?
EB: Sí, todo me daba en papel.
JB: Entonces también me imagino que tal vez había unos papeles también que se fueron afectados con el huracán, se destruyeron y todo eso.
EB: Sí. Muchas personas. Todavía creo están algunos que no han podido ni arreglar sus problemas con los papeles porque como allí todo se perdió. No estaba todo computarizado.
JB: Si el huracán fuese a pasar hoy en este año 2023 en vez de 1998, ¿cuáles cree usted que fueran unas de las diferencias?
EB: Si hoy la tecnología, como le repito--. Después ellos vinieron, ya dieron como un carné, era la cédula un ID eso ya venía, nos tomaron fotografías y ya las huellas ya fue diferente. Porque hoy los podemos están todos en computadora. Cuando ya vamos a cualquier lugar. Aquí hay embajadas en Estados Unidos. Uno va y nos enseña las fotografías de allí “mira ve esta fue su primera vez que fue a solicitar sus documentos” ya nos dieron un ID ya diferente ya todo ya podían saber quién era la persona o pueden saber quién es con las huellas, la fotografía y todo ya nos conectan mejor.
JB: ¿Y usted cree que gobierno pudo o pudiera ayudar más y hubiera ocurrido en 2023 o hubiera sido casi lo mismo?
EB: Si hubiera podido ayudar más. Si como ya como más organizado. Como allí también entre los políticos, todos sus familiares, sus las ayudas iban a quienes sus conocidos algunas personas aprovecharon tal vez ellos ni tenían las utilidades y dijeron se perdió aquí la electricidad por favor vengan a arreglar vengan a ponerlo acá y como no llevaba una contabilidad ellos ni sabían y recibieron mucha ayuda.
JB: ¿Entonces usted cree que los políticos recibieron mayoría de la ayuda durante tiempo?
EB: Sí porque me podía ver allí porque yo recuerdo que a mi mamá le fueron a decir allí conoce usted algunas personas a las que perdieron aquí las casas y todo denos la lista entonces mi mami las amistades de ella entonces dijo les llevo toda la información y les dijo aquí van a ver vamos a hacer aquí una colonia y en lugar y yo los puse allá sus nombres y porque a mi mamá la conocían ya ella tenía más amistades con los políticos porque ella trabajaba en la política. Entonces tenía como conexiones. Entonces ellos le dijeron a mi mamá tráiganme todas esas personas que realmente necesitan. Entonces mi mami allí conocidos y de todo los llevo y les ayudó.
JB: ¿Y ella pudo ayudar también personas fuera de su departamento, fuera de su ciudad?
EB: No, solo los que estaban allí en la ciudad.
JB: A los conocidos.
EB: A los conocidos.
JB: ¿Y ella pudo haber ayudado a usted o no estaba muy lejos?
EB: Sí, ella me dijo que me podía ayudar, pero tenía que permanecer allí y yo vivía en otro lugar, o sea, la ayuda que yo tenía que recibir tenía que hacer allá donde yo estaba viviendo. Porque me tenía que mudar allí porque ellos tenían que pagar a una persona o yo para poder construir la casa de nuevo.
JB: ¿Y la ayuda que estaban brindando allí donde su abuela estaba inscribiendo las personas era inmediata o era ayuda prometida allá en el futuro?
EB: Prometida en el futuro porque fue Irlanda quien envió esa ayuda para poder construir allí en ese país entonces ellos fueron y así se llama también en la colonia Irlanda le pusieron porque mi tía allí ella consiguió casa y tuvo que trabajar bastante tiempo y hasta que terminaron completamente toda la colonia hicieron todas las cosas ya vinieron ellos y les dijeron okay esta es su casa y así les fueron entregando a todas las personas pero que las personas que terminaron el proceso desde que comenzaron hasta que terminaron y algunas personas solo empezaron y ya nos siguieron.
JB: El procedimiento fue largo ¿De qué consistía?
EB: De ir a trabajar. Desde las personas, las mujeres cocinaban para los hombres que iban a trabajar, las que no podían y mujeres que podían trabajar iban a trabajar allí alcanzar las herramientas para que pudieran o sacar tierra para poder construir las casas.
JB: ¿Entonces el trabajo consistía en construir la casa la casa donde ellos iban a vivir o donde iba era una colonia?
EB: Era una colonia o sea construyeron todita la colonia todas las casas para todos y todos unidos digamos.
JB: ¿Y entonces las casas no fueron distribuidas hasta que se completaron todas o iban dando las tras iban completándose cada casa?
EB: Hasta que ya se terminaron todos las pues yo creo la rifaron o allí hubo también personas que dijeron porque por conocido como siempre tenían conexión a personas les dieron los mejores lugares.
JB: ¿Y se aseguraron las personas de que bueno se aseguraron de que las personas habían trabajado todo ese tiempo o vamos a decir si el procedimiento ya estaba por terminar se podía unir cualquier persona para decir oh yo vengo aquí a ayudar y quiero una casa?
EB: No, tenían que digamos así unas personas que ya eran de que no tenían cómo ellas trabajar, ya no podían, eran de sesenta años, setenta años, las abuelas digamos, ellas pagaban a una persona u otra persona los pudiera suplir, pero sí se llevaban él no lo podían si decía yo quiero y voy a liberarme aquí no ya no podía porque eso es desde el comienzo.
JB: ¿Y las personas viejas que mandaban a alguien a suplirlos tenía firmado algún documento o era nomás por palabra?
EB: No un documento allí llevaba allí tenían un comité entonces allí iban chequeando todas las personas con presidente, vicepresidente, todos esos tenían allí el control de la persona y las firma de quienes habían trabajado hoy al principio ellos no podían vender como que tenían alguna póliza me imagino que ellos dijeron no porque hasta que haiga nosotros algunos cinco o diez años después y ya las personas comenzaron a vender sus propiedades.
JB: ¿Entonces ellos habían firmado un contrato que decía que no podían vender sus casas hasta que pasara estos esta cantidad de años?
EB: Sí me imagino que sí porque no nadie podía vender ni cambiar ni nada. Todo donde les habían prometido allí donde les habían asignado allí tenían que quedarse.
JB: ¿Y el gobierno invirtió en las escuelas después de del huracán ya que allí fue un albergue o un lugar donde las personas fueron a vivir mientras estaban construyendo su casa de nuevo?
EB: Sí enviaron ayudas porque sí construyeron las y cuidaron las escuelas para mí es una comunidad también. Entre ellos comenzaron a limpiar, a preparar.
JB: ¿Y usted miró algún aumento en las escuelas, las construcciones de las escuelas o usted piensa que quedaron casi igual?
EB: Casi igual.
JB: Y como bueno usted mencionó que bastantes niños tuvieron quedarse fuera de la escuela a causa del huracán y porque también las personas estaban viviendo allí. ¿Cómo cree que esto afectó su educación?
EB: Si afectó bastante porque lo que tenían que aprender no lo aprendieron y ya digamos las personas no fueron preparadas como deberían de ser.
JB: ¿y perdieron el año o tuvieron que resumir después?
EB: Sí, resumir después. Ósea, dar los fines de semana, lo que podían.
JB: Y ellos comenzaron mucho más, bueno, ¿Cuántos meses cree usted que duró para que todo fuera de nuevo?
EB: Yo creo que como dos años.
JB: Dos años.
EB: Si algunos lugares costo porque allí donde vivía la tía de mi esposo esa escuela todavía no podía porque no tenían las personas donde las que estaban allí viviendo no tenían a donde irse todavía ya costo bastante.
JB: ¿Y si vamos a decir que había un estudiante que estaba por graduarse del sexto grado tuvo que esperar casi dos años para poder graduarse digamos?
EB: No sé realmente qué fue lo que pasó allí porque como yo no estudiaba y tal vez mi mamá se sabe que como ella mis hermanos iban a la escuela.
JB: Sí, está bien, no se preocupe. Y bueno ya casi vamos a al final, pero quiero hacerle una pregunta más. ¿Usted cree que hay otras formas en que los Estados Unidos pudo haberse involucrado en ayuda de bueno para ayudar a Honduras en estos en esos momentos difíciles?
EB: Me imagino que si Estados Unidos envió mucho mucha ayuda pero sí como todavía no se podía digamos no había tanta tecnología y las ayudas a saber en que las invirtieron nunca se supo si realmente llegó a la comunidad que necesitaba como le digo allí donde esos lugares donde vivía así como la familia de mi esposo allí costó dos años o más tiempo para que pudieran volver a abrir escuelas, colegios y todo eso fue porque la ayuda eso costó que llegar a esos lugares remotos digamos donde no podían ni tener alguna conexión poder chequear que en realidad necesitaban esa ayuda.
JB: Y los Estados Unidos es conocido por enviar comida y ropa. ¿Cree usted que con lo que ellos mandaron fue casi lo mismo? Como usted mencionó que los políticos tuvieron la oportunidad de agarrar lo mejor… ¿Cree usted que los políticos en este momento pudieron recibir mayoría de la comida que los Estados Unidos estaban enviando y la y la ropa?
EB: Sí, me imagino que sí, que como a sus colegas eran los primeros como a sus conocidos.
JB: Sí.
EB: Que la ayuda iba para ellos.
JB: ¿Y la radio, en la radio no mencionaban nada de ayudas de los Estados Unidos?
EB: Sí mencionaba las noticias, pero como también en la ya no se creía tanto en noticia. Porque decían por allá algún lugar están ayudando están dando y las personas iban a veces ni lo lograban.
JB: ¿Entonces no era mucha la ayuda o a veces no existía?
EB: Ajá sí, inventaba. Pero sí, bastantes países se unieron. Sí ayudaban.
JB: Sí. Bueno, muchas gracias por permitirme entrevistarla.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Transcriber: Johana Bautista-Ayala
Interview Date: April 18, 2023
Date of Transcription: April 19, 2023
Es: Transcripción
[00:00:03] Johana Bautista: Hola, mi nombre es Johana Bautista, soy estudiante de la
Universidad de Chapel Hill en North Carolina y hoy tengo el gusto de entrevistar a Elsi Bautista. Hola Elsi, ¿Me puedes contar un poquito sobre tu historia de migración?
[00:00:19] Elsi Bautista: Sí, hace como veinte, veintitrés años yo llegué al país. Vine, conseguí una visa para México y de México para acá. Llegué en avión, pero sí me tardé como tres meses para hacer el proceso porque no fue tan fácil para entrar aquí a este país.
JB: Y el procedimiento para poder recibir una visa para ir a México, ¿fue largo y difícil o de qué consistía?
EB: Sí, teníamos que conseguir muchos papeles para pagar abogados y tener conexiones para que ellos pudieran ayudarnos y el proceso fuera más rápido.
JB: ¿Y fue caro me imagino?
EB: Sí. Mucho dinero.
JB: ¿Y cómo pudo obtener todo ese dinero para poder?
EB: Yo trabajaba en una fábrica de maquilas y ya mi esposo, él ya ha tenido un año que él estaba acá y él me ayudaba con el dinero.
JB: ¿Y qué año fue que se vino su esposo?
EB: Él se vino en 1999 y yo me vine en el 2000.
JB: Y ya me imagino que ustedes saben sobre lo que ocurrió en Honduras y en Centroamérica con huracán Mitch, que ocurrió en 1998. Le quiero preguntar específicamente a este evento. ¿Qué se acuerda usted del huracán Mitch?
EB: Yo no miraba ni las noticias, yo me levanté como un día normal, fui al trabajo, cuando yo llegué todas las personas estaban en huelga porque dijeron no vamos a trabajar porque todo esto aquí está en lo bajo y se va a inundar y tenemos que regresarnos para nuestras casas. Entonces cuando ya regresamos a las casas ya no había ni transportación, me costó llegar a la casa y no pude ni entrar donde yo tenía las cosas. Todavía estaba mi esposo y él fue a poner las camas en lo alto en unas mesas para que no se mojaran y nos fuimos para conseguir albergue en otros lugares donde era más seguro y allí estuvimos y siempre el agua entraba y eso fue muy difícil porque ya se aproximaba. Fue en octubre entonces en los trabajos eso fue muy difícil sin dinero y en las noticias se miraban tanta cosa sobre las personas. Los niños y los cadáveres se miraban nadando. Y también exageraban las noticias tal vez o si sucedió eso porque se llenó completamente y nadie estaba preparado para eso.
JB: Y tú mencionaste de la huelga que ocurrió. ¿Este día fue esta huelga comenzó mucho antes que viniera el huracán en preparación, u ocurrió el mismo día que el huracán tocó suelo?
EB: El mismo día que el huracán porque fue un domingo, el lunes por la mañana nosotros nos presentamos a trabajar. Entonces ya fue el lunes que ya comenzaba y ya se estaba llenando de agua porque toda la noche comenzó a la lluvia y parte del domingo y ya estaba el lunes fuerte entonces ya desde allí comenzó.
JB: ¿Y su casa estaba cerca de estas maquilas o estaba lejos?
EB: Yo estaba como a trece millas.
JB: ¿Cómo cuánto minutos?
EB: Sí, media hora.
JB: Media hora normalmente y ya como usted mencionó que la transportación estuvo bien difícil este día. ¿Cuánto tiempo le tocó esperar para poder llegar a su casa?
EB: Sí, había taxistas, porque eran más directos y costó, me imagino como unos cien lempiras.
JB: ¿Pero y de tiempo ¿Cuánto fue?
EB: Como hora y media.
JB: Wow, okay. Bueno muchas gracias por compartir su día enfrentando el huracán y usted menciono de los albergues que habían en preparación para cuidar de las personas. ¿Esto era para toda la comunidad o solo era para las personas que trabajaban en las maquilas?
EB: Si para toda la comunidad porque la lluvia era tan fuerte que se llevaba a las casas y entonces las escuelas las necesitaron para eso colegios todos los lugares así hospitales, pero casi todo estaba colapsado porque la mayoría de personas vivían en lo bajo y no estaban completamente ellos no nunca había pasado un desastre tan horroroso como eso.
JB: ¿Y fue el gobierno que dijo que todos se fueran para estas escuelas o fue la misma comunidad que dijo “vámonos todos para las escuelas?”
EB: Sí fue el gobierno que dijo de que como eso las escuelas y todo eso eran del gobierno y así todas las personas ayudando una con otra.
JB: Sí. Bueno me imagino que usted sabe de los dos huracanes que ha ocurrido como huracán Irma y también el huracán María que afectó a mucho de Centroamérica y también Puerto Rico. Yo digo eso porque cuando pasó estos eventos siempre hay un caos qué pasa que la gente comienza a alocarse, no hay comida y no hay muchos materiales. Le quiero preguntar específicamente con Huracán Mitch cuando esto ocurrió en Honduras. ¿Cómo estaban todas las cosas en las tiendas? Me imagino que fue difícil encontrar comida o aún estaba en la etapa que había todavía comida.
EB: Sí, había porque nadie creía, nadie pensó que eso iba a ser fuerte porque las personas que jugaban fútbol estaban ese domingo haciendo todas las actividades, todo era normal. El problema fue ya en la noche cuando comenzó el agua, pero fuerte, que ya se empezaron a tapar todos los lugares los desagües, las mangueras de agua, porque había mucha basura en las calles, y en nada de preparación.
JB: ¿Había ocurrido un huracán antes de esta fecha?
EB: No, que yo sepa no, él fue el primero que yo pasé.
JB: Sí. Y después ¿Cuánto tiempo estuvo usted ahí en el albergue, esperando el huracán pasar?
EB: Como un mes.
JB: ¿Y su casa o su hogar como quedó después del huracán?
EB: Cuando yo llegué todavía el agua estaba por la por la mesa y ya todas las cosas que habíamos puesto así arriba no estaban tan mojadas. Pero paredes y todas las cosas los trastes todo eso andaba nadando todavía. Ahí tenemos que tener cuidado porque era el agua se miraba sucia. Entonces no si uno para caminar se podía meter en algún hoyo, algún vidrio, alguna cosa, eso era terrible.
JB: ¿Y lograron salvar la mayoría de sus cosas o todo estaba mojado?
EB: Sí algunas cosas se salvaron las que no perjudicaban el agua. Pero la mayoría de las cosas si se perdieron.
JB: ¿Y tuvieron que ir a comprar cosas nuevas después, me imagino?
EB: Si trabajar para comprarla eso costó.
JB: ¿Y sus amigos también enfrentaron situaciones iguales a la suya o fue completamente diferentes?
EB: Algotras completamente diferente porque ellos perdieron la casa y se quedaron completamente sin nada y lo que tenían era solamente que les ayudaban para que ellos pasaran en las escuelas. Llegó como en febrero, ellos comienzan a abrir las clases los maestros y todavía eso estaba lleno de personas que no tenían casa, no tenían nada. Ahí vivían completamente.
JB: ¿Y qué decían los maestros con las personas viviendo ahí?
EB: Tuvieron que suspender clases porque no había ni internet ni nada, sino que todo eso se atrasó.
JB: ¿Y qué pasó con la electricidad, se fue completamente durante el huracán?
EB: Sí, mucho tiempo se fue la electricidad, no había nada y me recuerdo cuando ya casi estaba pasando el huracán. Vino el—no el gobernador—o el alcalde de Tegucigalpa, que es la capital de Honduras, fue dijo voy a ir a revisar cómo se ve, el cómo ha quedado Honduras, y empezó a pilotear con yo creo el acompañante el helicóptero, y a las pocas horas se derribó, murió él.
JB: ¿Murió el alcalde?
EB: Si fue más triste. Después que estaba completamente el país con problemas ya el alcalde había perdido la vida.
JB: Y me imagino que esto llegó a todas las noticias, no solo de Honduras, sino que también afuera. ¿Cree usted que esto colocó más ayuda para Honduras o afectó las noticias enteramente?
EB: No sé yo, como pasaría eso sí pero sí se recibió de otros países apoyaron porque ellos mandaron a hacer casas, programas, así para las personas que ellas pudieran ir a trabajar porque no había dinero, sino que con trabajo ellos podían ayudar para ir haciendo las colonias, las casas y entregarles a las personas que completamente no tenían habían quedado sin nada. Pero eso duró como dos años para que las casas las terminaran porque ellos mismos se terminaban. La trabajaban para terminarla.
JB: Y usted mencionó que en su casa--. Bueno en su casa no más tenía daño de agua. ¿Hace cuánto tiempo tomó para poder recuperar todas las cosas? ¿Volver a colocar todo de nuevo como estaba? ¿Arreglar las paredes?
EB: Sí, como un mes.
JB: En un mes pudieron.
EB: Recuerdo todavía lo que usamos para limpiar olores así para limpiar el piso, las paredes, después no podíamos ni olerlo porque nos recordaba mucho.
JB: ¿Eso era un olor fuerte?
EB: Ajá un olor fuerte porque era para desinfectarse aún las paredes y todo eso y sí sentíamos este nos recordaba [laughs] y si, sentíamos el olor ese que nos recordaba el huracán.
JB: ¿Y cómo sacaron el agua del de la casa?
EB: Ya fue bajando, este--. Empezaron a limpiar las cunetas ellas le llaman ahí este a limpiarla, a quitarles la basura y ya un poco fue a saliendo el agua.
JB: ¿Y tuvieron que botar algunas cosas, me imagino?
EB: Sí.
JB: ¿La ropa?
EB: Sí, todo lo que estaba mojado, lo que quedó completamente perdido.
JB: ¿Y usted mencionó que su esposo colocó la cama más alta, la cama se pudo salvar o tampoco?
EB: Sí, se salvó porque la parte de abajo sí eso sí estaba mojado. Pero se la pusimos al sol y así.
JB: ¿Y el colchón quedó mojado o?
EB: No, solo se secó.
JB: ¿Solo fue la base entonces?
EB: Si.
JB: Y había otro ¿Cómo se dice? Furniture que quedó dañado?
EB: Sí las mesas, trastes todo.
JB: Todo quedó. ¿Y eso tuvieron que reponerlo ustedes de su propio dinero?
EB: Sí.
JB: ¿No hubo ni una ayuda del gobierno?
EB: No, ellos lo que ayudaban era más con comida.
JB: ¿Y también con las casas?
EB: Sí, porque ahí en el trabajo cuando ya nosotros regresamos, ellos sí nos ayudaban. Y nos daban provisiones, cajas con materiales para que ya pudiéramos cocinar. Cosas enlatadas me imagino que otros países habían enviado para que nos dieran.
JB: Y en su trabajo. ¿Cómo les ayudaron, les dieron tiempo libre para poder?
EB: Si dieron las personas que completamente habían perdido todo para que se volvieran a nivelar si les dieron tiempo libre.
JB: ¿Y les dieron algún bono para ayudarles?
EB: Sí les dieron bono.
JB: Sí. Bueno, me alegro de que les pudieron ayudar. Ahora le quiero preguntar si ahora que está en los Estados Unidos, ¿usted ha notado algún aumento a lo largo de los años en la migración, a causa de los factores ambientales?
EB: ¿Cómo? No lo entiendo, ¿qué ambientales cómo?
JB: Como huracanes, tornados o también diferentes factores como está muy caliente o como países que están bien cerca lo que se llama el equator a veces son muy calientes para eso entonces ellos tienen que salir de esos lugares. También son factores que causan que vengan y salgan de su país. Viviendo aquí en North Carolina, los Estados Unidos, ¿Cómo ha visto usted tal vez a sus amigos en el trabajo? Que las familias han venido a causa de estos factores.
EB: Sí, aquí incluso dieron papeles. Todavía hay personas que están este un permiso de trabajo para que ellos pudieran trabajar desde ese tiempo todavía ellos los están renovando cada dieciocho meses ellos les están este dando esos papeles ese permiso de trabajo todavía a los nicaragüenses y a los hondureños.
JB: ¿Este programa existe hoy en día?
EB: Existe hoy en día desde 1998 hasta 2023.
JB: ¿Hubo un programa así para hondureños que fueron afectados por el huracán?
EB: Sí. Todos los que estaban acá adentro este ellos recibieron para que les pudieran ayudar allá los legalizaron o sea dándoles ese permiso para que ellos puedan obtener un trabajo mejor, licencia y todo eso. Este para que les ayudaran ahí a los familiares.
JB: ¿Y esto consiste en una visa para ellos quedarse aquí o y regresar o es una visa que ayuda para ellos obtener papeles y trabajar?
EB: No, solamente es para trabajar. Ya para poder viajar tiene que ser otra aplicación, pero sí este hace como cinco años creo ya ellos pudieron viajar, algunas personas, pero tenían que ir a hacer algo de emergencia allá al país, pero tenían tantos años de no ver a sus familiares entonces les obtuvieron como un permiso para poder salir y entrar. Entonces sí muchas personas se pudieron reunir con sus familiares.
JB: ¿Y usted tenía familia aquí cuando usted llegó de Honduras?
EB: Sí él ya mi esposo él estaba acá y él consiguió porque en el trayecto del huracán el
llegó acá a Estados Unidos y a él le dieron el permiso de trabajo comenzó el con eso entonces cuando yo vine acá por medio de él yo conseguí también y ya después entró otras leyes como las dos cuarenta y cinco I por medio de trabajo las personas que realmente necesitaban como jardineros, trabajos pesados, y mi esposo calificó para eso. Entonces dieron como un paquete familiar. Entonces allí venían todos los hijos podían recibir la residencia y la esposa en el paquete todo completo.
JB: ¿Y procedimiento fue largo o fue rápido?
EB: Sí, fue largo. Ya cuatro años.
JB: ¿Y fue caro?
EB: Sí. Porque con los abogados hoy en día es más fácil pero antes con se trataba la tecnología muy despacio y uno para conseguir pruebas, poderlas enviar. Si la prueba no estaba legal como ellos querían, otro procedimiento y entonces muchas veces tuvimos que algunas aplicaciones se cancelaban. Entonces tuvimos que volver a pagar.
JB: ¿Y volver a aplicar?
EB: Y volver aplicar, correcto.
JB: Entonces volviendo a aplicar. ¿Esto colocó más tiempo, verdad? Entonces el total de los--usted dijo que cuatro años--el total de toda su aplicación, incluyendo el tiempo de que se tuvo que volver a comenzar su aplicación, por cuatro años.
EB: Sí.
JB: Sí. Bueno. ¿Y está al tanto del aumento de la migración de Honduras después del huracán Mitch María o Irma?
EB: No ha habido otra ayuda solo eso del para así de migración que han legalizado solamente eso no ha habido otra ayuda de migración.
JB: ¿Y hubo alguien más en su familia fue afectado acaso de huracán?
EB: Si más la familia de mi esposo porque ellos vivían en una parte donde el mar está cerca entonces digamos Ceiba Colón todas esas áreas como que hay muchos ríos, lagunas y todo eso se quedó allí completamente como un mar, como arena, todo. Entonces y las personas allí sufrieron mucha. Yo conocí a personas que habían perdido todo y cantaban la canción hasta música hicieron y cuando yo fui en diciembre a visitarlo como en tres días pudimos lograr llegar porque los puentes se habían caído por la lluvia entonces estaban los buses de un lugar los trasportaba. Ya nosotros teníamos que con las maletas, la hoja de equipaje, todo caminar con ellos y pasar allí por lo abajo casi por el agua y no sé cómo ellos sabían inventados pero que no podíamos caminando nosotros para poder pasar al otro lado y de allá el otro bus nos subíamos y íbamos y cuando yo iba con una cuñada y ella los niños los había dejado con la suegra y entonces cuando lo llegó y los miró estaban tan delgaditos sin ropa y sin nada lo que habían conseguido que les habían donado con eso estaban. Sí habían sufrido los niños.
JB: ¿Y ellos se habían quedado atorados allí? ¿No podían salir?
EB:O sea ellos tuvieron bastante tiempo. para que ellos se recuperaran. Fue más lento porque no podían llevar cosas porque como había muchos puentes para poder allí solo por aire tal vez helicóptero o algo que podía aterrizar le costó más la ayuda para que llegara allí.
JB: ¿Y usted cree que había otra manera de que el gobierno pudiera ayudarlos ya que estaban tan lejos tal vez arreglando los puentes más rápido?
EB: Ajá o barca haciendo por agua como más ayuda que ellos deberían de estar preparados sí, pero no porque eso lo ni ellos se esperaban porque todo lo normal nunca quizás habían pasado ese problema que ellos que nosotros tuvimos.
JB: ¿Y usted cree que ora con el tiempo el gobierno se ha podido preparar más en caso de que venga otro huracán igual al Mitch?
EB: Sí, hoy sí porque la tecnología también está avanzada y las personas ya hoy se ve que como más limpia las calles y hay más seguridad ellos están más pendientes.
JB: Y usted mencionó de la historia de su cuñada y sus hijos. ¿Ellos perdieron su casa?
EB: Sí ellos perdieron todo.
JB: Y ¿Cuánto tiempo tomó para que ellos pudieran recibir ayuda del gobierno para que pudieran hacer su casa de nuevo?
EB: Porque yo fui eso fue en octubre, fui en diciembre, eran dos meses me imagino como un año.
JB: ¿Fue largo el proceso?
EB: Si.
JB: ¿Y durante ese tiempo a dónde se quedaron?
EB: Ellos volvieron a construir la casa cómo pudieron así la hicieron de tierra y yo dormí allí cuando fui en diciembre todavía no lo habían terminado y con miedo estábamos porque el aire entraba y todo y sí fue difícil.
JB: ¿Pero ya no estaba más el agua, la inundación que estaba antes?
EB: No ya no.
JB: ¿Porque podía haber destruido la casa de tierra? ¿Verdad?
EB: Sí.
JB: ¿Y en esa área el agua se fue solo el impacto y después se fue o fue que quedó allí permaneció el agua del huracán?
EB: El agua se fue.
JB: Se fue.
EB: Sí.
JB: Y ¿En cuáles áreas fue impactó más que usted en Honduras?
EB: Como en las costas digamos en él se están como ahí está el Atlantic y el Pacífico entonces todos esos departamentos que están cerca del mar del océano eso fue casi un tsunami porque todo iba arrastrando.
JB: ¿Entonces no fue solo un huracán, sino que digamos fue un tsunami de todo?
EB: Sí todo eso porque se unió allí a se miraba allí en las noticias que las personas andaban con sus cadáveres, decían que no tenían dinero ni para poderlos enterrar a sus hijos que querían ayudas, iban a lugares a donde estaban ayudando, que por favor les ayudaran para que algunas personas se aprovechaban porque agarraban tal vez algún muerto tal vez no era ni familia de ellos, algún niño y decía “mire quería darle sepultura hijo, por favor, no me pueden dar dinero”. Tal vez ni era ni para eso, sino que para ellos el dinero.
JB: ¿Y esto ocurría todos los bastante durante tiempo, era como un scam? ¿No?
EB: Sí, porque como quién iba a poder tanta información si nadie tenía información.
JB: Y no había tecnología.
EB: Ni los nombres ni nada a los familiares.
JB: ¿Y entonces ellos preguntaba a la comunidad o preguntaban al gobierno por ayuda?
EB: Al gobierno.
JB: ¿Y el gobierno se les ayudaba?
EB: Sí les ayudaba porque ya como era una cadena ya las personas ya sabían de cómo obtener dinero me imagino.
JB: ¿Entonces podían reclamar solo una vez por persona o será que podían reclamar varios por mismo muerto digamos?
EB: Si me imaginó que por el mismo muerto pedían muchas personas porque ni sabían.
JB: ¿Usted sabe del procedimiento que ocurría para poder pedir el dinero del gobierno?
EB: No. Solo en las noticias que yo miraba.
EB: ¿Y nadie en su familia falleció a causa de este huracán?
JB: No, gracias a Dios. Solo pérdidas fueron, pero ya así no. Porque todos los animales que se tenían, todos esos se perdieron como las gallinas, las vacas, los cerdos, todos se ahogaron, más si estaban encerrados.
JB: ¿Sobrevivieron muy pocos o sobrevivieron casi nada?
EB: Casi nada.
JB: Y cuando usted estaba en el albergue cuando vino la catástrofe--. ¿O dónde estaba, en el momento donde el huracán tocó?
EB: En el momento que el huracán sí ya estaba ya en un lugar, en una casa donde estaba alto.
JB: ¿Escuchaba el viento y la tormenta?
EB: Sí.
JB: ¿Había ventanas?
EB: Sí.
JB: ¿Podía ver entonces qué es lo que estaba ocurriendo?
EB: Sí. Porque duró la tormenta casi una semana. Día y noche.
JB: Una semana. ¿Y estaban allí encerrados por una semana?
EB: Sí.
JB: ¿Tenían comida?
EB: Sí.
JB: ¿Solo enlatada?
EB: No, sí tenían comida.
JB: Y ¿Había personas que cocinaban o entre ustedes se ayudaban?
EB: Entre nosotros.
JB: ¿Y cada persona o cada familia cocinaba para sí sola o hacían una gran comida?
EB: Cada quien hacia su comida.
JB: Okay y más sobre su tiempo allí en el albergue. ¿Fue difícil encontrar, digamos paz, en esos momentos o estaban todavía en shock no sabían que es lo que estaba pasando allá afuera?
EB: Aha no sabíamos lo que estaba pasando. No teníamos la idea de que tan desastre era, solo mirar las noticias ajá y las personas que estaban aquí, llamaban, preguntaban.
JB: ¿Pero aún tenían acceso a ver televisión, no se había ido ni la antena, la comunicación aún estaba?
EB: Sí, ya como a la semana que se miraba que ya había regresado la luz y el cable y todo eso ya, sí, ya se miraba.
JB: ¿Pero cuando ustedes estaban encerrados tenían acceso a la tele?
EB: No, solo la radio.
JB: La radio. ¿Y no, no tenían acceso al teléfono, tampoco?
EB: No, tampoco.
JB: ¿Y cómo se comunicaban para afuera?
EB: No, solo estar viendo allí la lluvia y escuchar.
JB: ¿Y en la radio anunciaban a dónde iba, por dónde iba el huracán o nomás anunciaban las muertes o?
EB: Algunos periodistas exageraban, ya la gente ya ni quería escuchar tanta noticia porque algunas eran falsas decían y algo traen verdadera no se sabía que lo que realmente estaba sucediendo.
JB: ¿Y exageraban en los números de muertes o de cómo era el huracán?
EB: Sí.
JB: Okay. ¿Cómo se comunicó con su familia? ¿Cómo ellos sabían que eso estaba bien?
EB: Ya como cuando comenzaron ya las radios a abrir y entonces ya allí se empezó uno a llamar a decirle que todo estaba bien.
JB: ¿Y tenían que llamar a una radio especifica donde estaba su familia como algún departamento o era una radio de todo Honduras?
EB: Si una radio donde se escucha en todo en todo Honduras.
JB: ¿Y el anuncio de qué consistía?
EB: No, o sea uno llamaba, le avisaba a la familia que todo estaba bien.
JB: ¿Entonces no era a través de la radio, era nomás llamada normal?
EB: Si ya llamada normal.
JB: ¿Entonces usted se pudo contactar con su mamá y su otra familia?
EB: Si ya como en noviembre ella como al mes.
JB: ¿Tomó entonces un mes para poder saber si había si todo estaba bien?
EB: Si porque como eso costaba para poder viajar porque todos los puentes las conexiones eso estaban, no había transporte.
JB: ¿Y cuándo logró volver a ver a su familia?
EB: Ya como en enero.
JB: Entonces tomaron casi tres meses para poder verlos de nuevo.
EB: Si.
JB: ¿Y ya para enero la transportación estaba más rápida o aún estaba en desarrollo?
EB: Sí estaba despacio. Porque por algunos lugares no todavía no podían al otro lado no se esperaba.
JB: Y antes del huracán ¿Cuánto tiempo se tomaba para llegar a donde a la casa de su mamá?
EB: Me tardaba como una hora.
JB: ¿Y ya después del huracán?
EB: Si casi cinco horas, seis horas.
JB: ¿Y usted fue por largo tiempo a visitar su mamá o fue por poco tiempo en enero?
EB: Poco tiempo.
JB: Poco tiempo. ¿Y en ese poco tiempo usted pudo hablar con su mamá para ver cómo fueron los efectos allí donde ella estuvo?
EB: Sí. A ella no casi no porque vivía en lo alto. Casi no fue afectada.
JB: ¿No hubo daño entonces?
EB: No solo los ajá los animales que tenían algo lo había perdido y si la comida costaba que llegara todavía.
JB: ¿Y las casas estaban bien allí en el área de donde estaba su mamá?
EB: Sí, alguna, alguna parte sí sé se había rajado las paredes porque da mucha agua. Y, pero no nos--. No, casi cosas solo materiales, pero no vidas que se habían perdido.
JB: ¿No había inundaciones allí?
EB: No.
JB: ¿Adónde? ¿Estaba cerca su mamá en un departamento cerca del suyo o estaba un poquito más lejitos?
EB: Más lejitos.
JB: Okay. ¿Y allí donde estaba su mamá entonces usted dice que no hago ni un daño o no, el daño fue mínimo en comparación?
EB: Mínimo porque yo estaba en San Pedro Sula en Choloma, era la López allí sí, sí fue fuerte.
JB: ¿Y su esposo usted dice que tuvo que migrar a los Estados Unidos esto fue a causa del huracán o fue ya de su propio porque él quiso?
EB: Sí porque él quiso y también al ver que allí no había futuro.
JB: Y, perdón, en ese mes que ustedes estuvieron arreglando su casa. ¿fueron los dos trabajando a trayendo el dinero para poder pagar o fue uno más que el otro?
EB: Entre los dos trabajando porque yo en día comencé a trabajar en la maquila ya normal y el que comenzó a trabajar acá en Estados Unidos claro el dinero de él era se multiplicaba más.
JB: ¿Entonces usted miró ese cambio financiero cuando su esposo se vino para Estados Unidos?
EB: Si ya era diferente.
JB: Ya fue más fácil.
EB: Si más fácil la vida.
JB: ¿Y cuánto tiempo usted quedó allá en Honduras sola después que su marido se vino?
EB: Un año.
JB: Un año. ¿Y en año al cómo fueron los factores de él, lo que uno le llama post Hurricane--después del huracán? ¿Cómo fue esa vida, como se compara a la vida antes del huracán?
EB: Todas las personas solo hablaban de eso y tragedias que ese año como que como algunos perdieron sus familiares, algunos que habían perdido las casas y todo y habían quedado completamente sin nada. Esas personas cuando comenzaban a hablar uno les preguntaba empezaban a llorar. Se les miraba la tristeza que tenían en sus caras, en su rostro. El sufrimiento que ellos habían pasado.
JB: Y entonces digamos que Honduras estuvo de luto ¿Cuánto tiempo se cree que esto ocurrió?
EB: Mucho tiempo. Yo creo que hasta la vez las personas que estuvieron en ese momento y que perdieron sus familiares, sus cosas todavía. Se les quedó eso, nunca lo olvidan.
JB: ¿Usted estaba joven en este tiempo?
EB: Sí.
JB: Y ¿Cómo esta experiencia afectaría la vida de un niño?
EB: Porque las escuelas todo cerrado cuando se llegó--ellos estaban de vacaciones cuando se llegó--que ya tenían que regresar las escuelas estaban ocupadas por personas eso difícil para ellos porque la rutina y todo eso que ellos tenían, todo se atrasó.
JB: ¿Y usted no tenía niños en este momento?
EB: No. Estaba embarazada.
JB: ¿Y ya cuando tuvo su hijo fue allá en Honduras o aquí en los Estados Unidos?
EB: Allá en Honduras.
JB: ¿Cómo fue su experiencia o cómo cree usted que esa experiencia hubiera sido diferente si hubiera ocurrido antes del huracán?
EB: Hubiera sido mejor.
JB: ¿Y porque dice que hubiera sido mejor?
EB: Porque tanto ver personas sufridas y yo debía tener cuidado porque estaba empezando a salir estaban mis primeros meses para caminar para andar en lugares debía tener mucho cuidado y más las bacterias y todo que las enfermedades después vinieron pestes que las personas se enfermaban de tantas bacterias que habían quedado.
JB: ¿Y usted tenía cuidado en un hospital o una clínica durante ese tiempo cuando estaba embarazada?
EB: Si una clínica tenía de allí mismo del trabajo ellos me daban las clínicas los doctores que me estaban chequeando.
JB: ¿Y las clínicas estaban llenas de personas que se habían golpeado o que se habían o que habían tenido un accidente durante el huracán o ya casi ya había bajado cuando usted se embarazo?
EB: Sí, ya había ya había bajado.
JB: ¿Usted cree que el cuidado de la clínica hubiese sido diferente si hubiera ocurrido antes del huracán?
EB: Sí, claro, porque no estaban pendientes en tantas personas. Hasta los doctores porque allí fue allí el problema fue para todos allí, pobres, ricos y estudiados, no graduados para todo fue igual el impacto.
JB: Todos quedaron.
EB: Si todos quedó esa huella acá digamos.
JB: Y ahora reflexionando de evento ¿Qué cree que hubiera sido mejores formas del gobierno haber ayudado? Usted mencionó que ellos daban comida, daban casa, pero ¿Cuáles fueron cuáles son otras cosas que usted piensa que el gobierno pudo haber hecho?
EB: O sea dar medicina para las personas que realmente necesitaban y ayudar más y estar preparados. Por el desastre. O sea que ellos no estaban ni preparados, no tenían una agenda. “Mire si aquí viene un desastre en cuanto tiempo no podemos recuperar” nada de eso.
JB: Y usted mencionó que había unas que se aprovecharon y miraron a los muertos y decían que era su hijo y necesitaban del gobierno. ¿Cómo cree que el gobierno pudo haber facilitado este programa para que las personas recibieran lo que no era de ellos?
EB: Sí, llevar una contabilidad mejor que hubieran chequeado todo digamos la información, pero me imagino las personas sabían hacerlo como hoy en día tal vez existe lo mismo que hay personas que siempre quieren hacerse pasar o usando otras cosas que no son ni de ellos como robando e identidades.
JB: ¿Y el procedimiento de las personas en ese tiempo todo era papel, en papel?
EB: Sí, todo me daba en papel.
JB: Entonces también me imagino que tal vez había unos papeles también que se fueron afectados con el huracán, se destruyeron y todo eso.
EB: Sí. Muchas personas. Todavía creo están algunos que no han podido ni arreglar sus problemas con los papeles porque como allí todo se perdió. No estaba todo computarizado.
JB: Si el huracán fuese a pasar hoy en este año 2023 en vez de 1998, ¿cuáles cree usted que fueran unas de las diferencias?
EB: Si hoy la tecnología, como le repito--. Después ellos vinieron, ya dieron como un carné, era la cédula un ID eso ya venía, nos tomaron fotografías y ya las huellas ya fue diferente. Porque hoy los podemos están todos en computadora. Cuando ya vamos a cualquier lugar. Aquí hay embajadas en Estados Unidos. Uno va y nos enseña las fotografías de allí “mira ve esta fue su primera vez que fue a solicitar sus documentos” ya nos dieron un ID ya diferente ya todo ya podían saber quién era la persona o pueden saber quién es con las huellas, la fotografía y todo ya nos conectan mejor.
JB: ¿Y usted cree que gobierno pudo o pudiera ayudar más y hubiera ocurrido en 2023 o hubiera sido casi lo mismo?
EB: Si hubiera podido ayudar más. Si como ya como más organizado. Como allí también entre los políticos, todos sus familiares, sus las ayudas iban a quienes sus conocidos algunas personas aprovecharon tal vez ellos ni tenían las utilidades y dijeron se perdió aquí la electricidad por favor vengan a arreglar vengan a ponerlo acá y como no llevaba una contabilidad ellos ni sabían y recibieron mucha ayuda.
JB: ¿Entonces usted cree que los políticos recibieron mayoría de la ayuda durante tiempo?
EB: Sí porque me podía ver allí porque yo recuerdo que a mi mamá le fueron a decir allí conoce usted algunas personas a las que perdieron aquí las casas y todo denos la lista entonces mi mami las amistades de ella entonces dijo les llevo toda la información y les dijo aquí van a ver vamos a hacer aquí una colonia y en lugar y yo los puse allá sus nombres y porque a mi mamá la conocían ya ella tenía más amistades con los políticos porque ella trabajaba en la política. Entonces tenía como conexiones. Entonces ellos le dijeron a mi mamá tráiganme todas esas personas que realmente necesitan. Entonces mi mami allí conocidos y de todo los llevo y les ayudó.
JB: ¿Y ella pudo ayudar también personas fuera de su departamento, fuera de su ciudad?
EB: No, solo los que estaban allí en la ciudad.
JB: A los conocidos.
EB: A los conocidos.
JB: ¿Y ella pudo haber ayudado a usted o no estaba muy lejos?
EB: Sí, ella me dijo que me podía ayudar, pero tenía que permanecer allí y yo vivía en otro lugar, o sea, la ayuda que yo tenía que recibir tenía que hacer allá donde yo estaba viviendo. Porque me tenía que mudar allí porque ellos tenían que pagar a una persona o yo para poder construir la casa de nuevo.
JB: ¿Y la ayuda que estaban brindando allí donde su abuela estaba inscribiendo las personas era inmediata o era ayuda prometida allá en el futuro?
EB: Prometida en el futuro porque fue Irlanda quien envió esa ayuda para poder construir allí en ese país entonces ellos fueron y así se llama también en la colonia Irlanda le pusieron porque mi tía allí ella consiguió casa y tuvo que trabajar bastante tiempo y hasta que terminaron completamente toda la colonia hicieron todas las cosas ya vinieron ellos y les dijeron okay esta es su casa y así les fueron entregando a todas las personas pero que las personas que terminaron el proceso desde que comenzaron hasta que terminaron y algunas personas solo empezaron y ya nos siguieron.
JB: El procedimiento fue largo ¿De qué consistía?
EB: De ir a trabajar. Desde las personas, las mujeres cocinaban para los hombres que iban a trabajar, las que no podían y mujeres que podían trabajar iban a trabajar allí alcanzar las herramientas para que pudieran o sacar tierra para poder construir las casas.
JB: ¿Entonces el trabajo consistía en construir la casa la casa donde ellos iban a vivir o donde iba era una colonia?
EB: Era una colonia o sea construyeron todita la colonia todas las casas para todos y todos unidos digamos.
JB: ¿Y entonces las casas no fueron distribuidas hasta que se completaron todas o iban dando las tras iban completándose cada casa?
EB: Hasta que ya se terminaron todos las pues yo creo la rifaron o allí hubo también personas que dijeron porque por conocido como siempre tenían conexión a personas les dieron los mejores lugares.
JB: ¿Y se aseguraron las personas de que bueno se aseguraron de que las personas habían trabajado todo ese tiempo o vamos a decir si el procedimiento ya estaba por terminar se podía unir cualquier persona para decir oh yo vengo aquí a ayudar y quiero una casa?
EB: No, tenían que digamos así unas personas que ya eran de que no tenían cómo ellas trabajar, ya no podían, eran de sesenta años, setenta años, las abuelas digamos, ellas pagaban a una persona u otra persona los pudiera suplir, pero sí se llevaban él no lo podían si decía yo quiero y voy a liberarme aquí no ya no podía porque eso es desde el comienzo.
JB: ¿Y las personas viejas que mandaban a alguien a suplirlos tenía firmado algún documento o era nomás por palabra?
EB: No un documento allí llevaba allí tenían un comité entonces allí iban chequeando todas las personas con presidente, vicepresidente, todos esos tenían allí el control de la persona y las firma de quienes habían trabajado hoy al principio ellos no podían vender como que tenían alguna póliza me imagino que ellos dijeron no porque hasta que haiga nosotros algunos cinco o diez años después y ya las personas comenzaron a vender sus propiedades.
JB: ¿Entonces ellos habían firmado un contrato que decía que no podían vender sus casas hasta que pasara estos esta cantidad de años?
EB: Sí me imagino que sí porque no nadie podía vender ni cambiar ni nada. Todo donde les habían prometido allí donde les habían asignado allí tenían que quedarse.
JB: ¿Y el gobierno invirtió en las escuelas después de del huracán ya que allí fue un albergue o un lugar donde las personas fueron a vivir mientras estaban construyendo su casa de nuevo?
EB: Sí enviaron ayudas porque sí construyeron las y cuidaron las escuelas para mí es una comunidad también. Entre ellos comenzaron a limpiar, a preparar.
JB: ¿Y usted miró algún aumento en las escuelas, las construcciones de las escuelas o usted piensa que quedaron casi igual?
EB: Casi igual.
JB: Y como bueno usted mencionó que bastantes niños tuvieron quedarse fuera de la escuela a causa del huracán y porque también las personas estaban viviendo allí. ¿Cómo cree que esto afectó su educación?
EB: Si afectó bastante porque lo que tenían que aprender no lo aprendieron y ya digamos las personas no fueron preparadas como deberían de ser.
JB: ¿y perdieron el año o tuvieron que resumir después?
EB: Sí, resumir después. Ósea, dar los fines de semana, lo que podían.
JB: Y ellos comenzaron mucho más, bueno, ¿Cuántos meses cree usted que duró para que todo fuera de nuevo?
EB: Yo creo que como dos años.
JB: Dos años.
EB: Si algunos lugares costo porque allí donde vivía la tía de mi esposo esa escuela todavía no podía porque no tenían las personas donde las que estaban allí viviendo no tenían a donde irse todavía ya costo bastante.
JB: ¿Y si vamos a decir que había un estudiante que estaba por graduarse del sexto grado tuvo que esperar casi dos años para poder graduarse digamos?
EB: No sé realmente qué fue lo que pasó allí porque como yo no estudiaba y tal vez mi mamá se sabe que como ella mis hermanos iban a la escuela.
JB: Sí, está bien, no se preocupe. Y bueno ya casi vamos a al final, pero quiero hacerle una pregunta más. ¿Usted cree que hay otras formas en que los Estados Unidos pudo haberse involucrado en ayuda de bueno para ayudar a Honduras en estos en esos momentos difíciles?
EB: Me imagino que si Estados Unidos envió mucho mucha ayuda pero sí como todavía no se podía digamos no había tanta tecnología y las ayudas a saber en que las invirtieron nunca se supo si realmente llegó a la comunidad que necesitaba como le digo allí donde esos lugares donde vivía así como la familia de mi esposo allí costó dos años o más tiempo para que pudieran volver a abrir escuelas, colegios y todo eso fue porque la ayuda eso costó que llegar a esos lugares remotos digamos donde no podían ni tener alguna conexión poder chequear que en realidad necesitaban esa ayuda.
JB: Y los Estados Unidos es conocido por enviar comida y ropa. ¿Cree usted que con lo que ellos mandaron fue casi lo mismo? Como usted mencionó que los políticos tuvieron la oportunidad de agarrar lo mejor… ¿Cree usted que los políticos en este momento pudieron recibir mayoría de la comida que los Estados Unidos estaban enviando y la y la ropa?
EB: Sí, me imagino que sí, que como a sus colegas eran los primeros como a sus conocidos.
JB: Sí.
EB: Que la ayuda iba para ellos.
JB: ¿Y la radio, en la radio no mencionaban nada de ayudas de los Estados Unidos?
EB: Sí mencionaba las noticias, pero como también en la ya no se creía tanto en noticia. Porque decían por allá algún lugar están ayudando están dando y las personas iban a veces ni lo lograban.
JB: ¿Entonces no era mucha la ayuda o a veces no existía?
EB: Ajá sí, inventaba. Pero sí, bastantes países se unieron. Sí ayudaban.
JB: Sí. Bueno, muchas gracias por permitirme entrevistarla.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Transcriber: Johana Bautista-Ayala
Interview Date: April 18, 2023
Date of Transcription: April 19, 2023
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
R-1014 -- Bautista, Elsi.
Description
An account of the resource
This interview was conducted in Spanish by Johana Bautista-Ayala with her mother, Elsi Bautista. Throughout the interview, Elsi tells us her family’s perspective and history on their migration experience from Honduras to the United States due to environmental factors, primarily the disaster caused by Hurricane Mitch. Elsi recounts much of this dramatic experience such as: the lack of information to prepare for what was coming and in the aftermath; the destruction of homes, loss of livestock, and other economic challenges; life sheltering at a school even after schools returned in session; the loss of community leadership, including the death of the governor; and the aid sent by the United States, much of which Elsi believes never reached the affected communities.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-04-18
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29358">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
R1014_Audio.mp3
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/967b0f17dc4c9f9ac0b85b1c32a0a225.mp3
884572e51e9b66a0f6184c94491976b5
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/90dfba9151c6a073aa4ebc9013b485b2.pdf
b8235f474a31398262d72a91ff78bdf5
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-1013
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
Fecha
2023-04-15
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Bredenberg, Cynthia.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Teachers
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1972
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Hudson Falls -- Washington County -- New York
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Pittsboro -- Chatham County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
N/A
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Andrew, Lindley.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Cindy Bredenberg discusses her experiences and observations as a Spanish teacher at Jordan-Matthews High School in Siler City, North Carolina. She shares about her school’s demographics and the school culture and reflects on her experiences working with students throughout her fifteen years working at Jordan-Matthews, many of whom Latinx. Cindy also describes the challenges faced by many of her students, specifically those related to financial strain, the lack of quality affordable housing, anxiety, and the impact of stigmatization by community members. She differentiates between the experiences of her U.S.-born students and those who have migrated to North Carolina from other countries, and she shares some challenges specific to her undocumented students, including the stress of financially providing for family members in their home country and lack of access to federal financial aid for higher education. Cindy also details the importance of relationship-building between teachers and students and explains how students are more likely to reach out to teachers and school staff for help if they have a previously established trusting relationship. She also describes the “grassroots” nature of helping students and shares some of the in-school and community-based resources available to students and those specifically targeted to help students newly arriving from other countries. Finally, she describes the rise of charter schools in Chatham County and shifts in school demographics.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Cynthia Bredenberg by Lindley Andrew, 15 April 2023, R-1013, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29355
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
K12 education; Citizenship and immigration; Health; DREAMers and DACA; Community and social services and programs
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Maestros
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Cindy Bredenberg describe sus experiencias y observaciones como maestra de español en la escuela secundaria Jordan-Matthews en Siler City, Carolina del Norte. Ella habla sobre la demografía y el ambiente de su escuela y reflexiona sobre sus experiencias ayudando a varios estudiantes durante sus quince años trabajando en Jordan-Matthews, muchos de los cuales han sido latinos. Cindy también describe los desafíos que enfrentan muchos de sus estudiantes, específicamente aquellos relacionados con la tensión financiera, la falta de vivienda asequible de calidad, la ansiedad y el impacto de la estigmatización por los miembros de la comunidad. Ella distingue entre las experiencias de sus estudiantes nacidos en los EE. UU. y aquellos que han emigrado a Carolina del Norte desde otros países. Ella también habla de algunos desafíos que enfrentan sus estudiantes indocumentados, incluido el estrés de mandar dinero a los familiares que han quedado en el país de origen y la falta de acceso a financiación federal para la educación superior. Cindy también describe la importancia de construir relaciones entre maestros y estudiantes y explica cómo es más probable que los estudiantes se comuniquen con los maestros si tienen una relación de confianza ya establecida. También describe el modo ""grassroots"" de ayudar a los estudiantes y comparte algunos de los recursos escolares y comunitarios disponibles para los estudiantes, incluyendo aquellos específicamente destinados a ayudar a los estudiantes recién llegados de otros países. Finalmente, ella describe el crecimiento de las escuelas “charters” en el condado de Chatham y los cambios en la demografía de las poblaciones escolares.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Cynthia Bredenberg por Lindley Andrew, 15 April 2023, R-1013, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Educación básica y media; Ciudadanía e inmigración; Salud; Movimiento de jóvenes 'Soñadores' y Acción Diferida; Programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
[00:00:00] START OF RECORDING
Lindley Andrew: Hi, my name is Lindley Andrew, and I’m here with Cindy Bredenberg, a high school teacher. It is April 15th, 2023, and we’re here in Chatham County, North Carolina. Today we’ll be discussing the effects of immigration-related stressors on the health and well-being of youth in Latinx immigrant communities, specifically Siler City, North Carolina. Cindy, just to get your oral consent, do I have your permission to continue interviewing you and for it to go on the New Roots website?
Cynthia Bredenberg: You do.
LA: Awesome. So just to start out, can you tell me a little bit about your school and the community that it’s in?
CB: Sure. I teach at Jordan-Matthews High School, which is located in Siler City, North Carolina. We’re maybe about forty minutes from Chapel Hill and about twenty minutes from Asheboro. We’re a small community. We’re located in Chatham County, and so our school district-- the northern part of our district is right in Chapel Hill, but for us, we’re kind of on the line with Randolph County, so a totally different demographic than what you would find near Chapel Hill. So, our school has about 850 students right now, and we’re sixty percent Hispanic, twenty-five percent Caucasian, and fifteen percent African American.
LA: Awesome. So, can you tell me a little bit about your-- what you do as a teacher, what you teach, specifically, and just kind of like the culture of your school?
CB: Sure. I have been teaching at Jordan-Matthews-- this is my fifteenth year. I am a non-native Spanish speaker, and when I was hired as a Spanish teacher, they asked me if I could teach native speakers Spanish because there was a need for that, so I said, “Sure!” [laughs] So that was my first time doing that, but I’ve been there for fifteen years now. I teach everything from Spanish one, two, three, and four, that would be for our non-native, non-heritage speakers. I’ve taught Spanish one and two native speakers, I teach AP Spanish Language and Culture, and I also teach a Syracuse University Project Advance class, Spanish 201. So, I pretty much taught anything at Jordan-Matthews, anything and everything. I work with students who speak English at home and students who speak Spanish at home, but predominantly students who speak Spanish at home.
LA: Awesome. And so, I guess because we’re going to be talking about immigrant youth and families, in your experience working with these kinds of students and their families, what have you observed are some of the most pressing stressors by these individuals? And how have students brought these stressors to your attention?
CB: Sure. Obviously, economics play a huge role in our families, and that’s a stressor. Over the fifteen years of working at Jordan-Matthews, I’ve had many students who worked night jobs. They might go to work at 5:30 in the afternoon and work until 3:00 in the morning, and then they go to bed for a couple hours and then come to school. I’ve had students who-- when I started at J-M, we still had students who were working in the cotton fields. And I had students who would go and pick cotton when the sun came up and then they would come to school, and then they would go back and pick cotton in Lee County. Maybe not so much in Chatham County, but they were traveling to where their parents were working. So, economics are a big thing. The lack of safe housing, sustainable housing. We do have about three trailer parks in Siler City, and so I believe that there is housing available, but it’s not quality housing, and some of the trailer parks where students live are very old, and it’s no place that you would ever want to live, yourself. So affordable housing that’s safe and quality housing-- finances are a huge part, and then also I think the stressors of children always worried about whether or not their parents will be taken away. I think that plays a huge roll in our students’ everyday lives.
LA: Yeah, and how have students typically brought these issues to your attention? Is it just kind of something you observe, or do they often reach out to you, or what is that like?
CB: So, it’s a little bit of both. Being that I’m established at the school, a lot of families know me, and so they feel comfortable coming to me. But if it’s a student who’s new, and they don’t know me -- you know, I’m a white lady who has an accent when she speaks Spanish -- so they don’t necessarily trust me right off the bat that, you know, we have to earn that trust. But, for a lot of the kids, they know me, I know their parents now, and so I think they probably do feel a little bit more comfortable coming to talk to me. And some, I think, with our students who are newly arrived to the United States, because I speak Spanish and they speak Spanish and they don’t speak English, I think it’s probably out of desperation, maybe, that they come and see me because they don’t know who else to talk to and I’m a teacher that speaks Spanish. Being a woman, I do have girls who will come and talk to me; maybe they wouldn’t talk to anyone else.
LA: Yeah, and just to kind of clarify and give a little bit of a distinction, could you distinguish between some of the challenges that are specific to students who are immigrants themselves, maybe newcomers like you just mentioned, versus the challenges faced by students who maybe have parents or family members who are immigrants, but they themselves were born in the U.S.?
CB: Sure. I didn’t really know about that distinction until I really saw it in my classroom. About ten years ago when I was teaching an AP Spanish class, I had students who were born here, but their parents were immigrants -- Hispanic students -- and in the same class, I had Hispanic students who had just come to our country. And I was really shocked and surprised by the way that the students who were citizens treated the non-citizens. Not overtly rude, but it was almost like passive aggressive, the way that they treated them. So that was really my first eye-opener to, “Wow they don’t see them as equals” or “They don’t see them as part of them.” So over the years we really try to work with kids at our school to try to get the kids who were born here and see themselves as, although they may be of Mexican or Guatemalan descent, they see themselves as American-- how can we get them to help the students who are new to our school. And so that’s something that we work on. So those students that are new to our school oftentimes they only socialize with each other, so they’re only speaking Spanish. Oftentimes they don’t know how to navigate the school system, they don’t know how to use the computer, they don’t -- because they’re only talking with each other in Spanish -- it does take them longer to learn English. And one thing that’s good about our school is we have a lot of courses that are offered in Spanish. In some ways I think that’s bad because it doesn’t enable those students to get out with the other students and to meet other kids. So that’s something that I think we try to work on to help our kids, who are typically an ESL student, interact with other students in the building. The other thing is getting those students who are U.S. citizens to work with those kids who are newcomers, to make them see that, you know, “We’re all human,” and they’re not so far removed from that. The students who are citizens already have many more opportunities than the students who aren’t. I have students who maybe came here at three years old or four years old and don’t remember anything about Mexico, but they’re not citizens. They receive an education, just like everybody else, and then when they’re seniors in high school and they’re applying to college, it’s really hard for them, really difficult to realize that their friends sitting next to them can pay a thousand dollars to go to the local community college, and they’re going to have to pay eight thousand dollars. And it just doesn’t seem fair. And it’s not fair. So that’s one thing I see also between citizens and non-citizens.
LA: Yeah. And do you think that many people in Siler City, in North Carolina, are aware of that kind of distinction between youth who are immigrants themselves versus youth who are children of immigrants? Because I often see them lumped together in a lot of popular narratives, and so is that something that you’ve noticed?
CB: Definitely lumped together. If we’re talking about Siler City, in particular, the white or African American population who are established in Siler City, they often lump all of our immigrants together as Mexican, and they do not understand the difference between if a child is a citizen or not a citizen, the opportunities that are afforded to the child that can apply for FAFSA, for financial aid, for all the scholarships, as compared to the child who is just as smart and has worked just as hard in high school and they don’t have those opportunities. No, people definitely don’t see that. So it’s interesting, I think, as -- I’m not originally from North Carolina. Like I said, I’ve been here fifteen years, so as an outsider, it’s interesting for me to see other groups of people that have historically been disadvantaged, how they treat now these Hispanic people who are now disadvantaged. It’s an interesting thing for me to see as an outsider.
LA: Yeah. Could you just elaborate on that just a little bit more?
CB: Sure. In Siler City, for example, we have a charter school. And the charter school, historically, was for white families. And now we have a lot of African American families sending their students there because they don’t want to send them to the public school because we are sixty percent Hispanic. Whereas so many of our Hispanic students at school, they’re fantastic, they’re super smart, they’re great, they’re funny, they’re great kids, but there’s this view of, “Oh, we’re not going to send our kids there.” And so, again, as an outsider, I see it as, “Well wait a minute, that’s how you were treated years ago,” but people don’t see it that way. They see it as the charter school is providing more opportunities for their kids. But I definitely see that our Hispanic students, and Hispanic families, are treated as second-class citizens many times in Siler City.
LA: Yeah, thanks for kind of giving a little bit more detail about that. I think that’s really important, and--.
CB: I think--. Can I speak to that also about Chatham County?
LA: Yeah.
CB: Because in--. So in Chatham County we have two elementary schools that offer a dual-language program. So, in Siler City, we have many more Hispanic students in the program than we have white or African American. Not that we don’t have the kids to fill those seats. The parents aren’t sending their kids to the dual-language school. So, in Siler City, the majority of the students in the program are Hispanic. In the same county, just forty minutes away, right near Chapel Hill, we have another elementary school, North Chatham, and the predominantly white students go there, and we don’t have enough Hispanic students. So the interesting part is, that in North Chatham, those white parents value their children being bilingual, but in the same county -- which, we know those parents are predominantly from other places, they’re not from Chatham County originally. Whereas in the same county, in Siler City, the white and African American parents from Chatham County do not typically send their kids to the dual-language school. They do not value their children being with those other kids, and they do not value their children being bilingual. It’s very interesting.
LA: That is really interesting. And in your fifteen years, have you noticed any shift in that perception or has it kind of maintained?
CB: I think it’s gotten worse. I think for a while we had parents sending their children to Siler City Elementary. Now, that speaks to the administration that was at Siler City Elementary at the time. A local person who was the principal at Siler City Elementary, I think the parents valued that person’s opinion. But I think as time has gone on, we see more of them sending their children to the charter schools.
LA: Interesting. Yeah, that would be fascinating to do research about, and collect perspectives and kind of map those.
CB: If people would be honest with their perspectives, it would be very interesting, yes.
LA: This is kind of switching gears a little bit, but in your experience knowing some mixed-status families -- which for listeners who may not exactly know what mixed-status is, that’s when there are some family members who are documented and others who aren’t -- what are some of the additional responsibilities and challenges that U.S. citizen-born children take on to help their undocumented parents or family members.
CB: Yeah, or siblings.
LA: Or siblings.
CB: We’ve had families at our school that two siblings have been citizens and one or two have not been citizens, and that’s so hard, when one of the children gets into college and applies for financial aid, and can go on, and the other child cannot, although they’re super smart. One thing I see when the parents were not born here, but the children were, or the children were raised here from a young age, the children oftentimes act not only as a translator, but the children act as the go-between between the school, between the local government, between the doctor’s office, dentist office-- and that’s a big responsibility. It’s also-- language is a powerful tool. Many times, I’ve seen children who maybe don’t want to tell their parents everything that’s being translated. It may be an uncomfortable topic, or maybe that they don’t want their parents to know, or maybe even they’re not sure how to translate some of the conversation. So that puts a big stressor on the child. And again, we have families that, you know, children are told not to answer the door. Children are told, maybe, not to talk to police. Children are told not to divulge any information to teachers or to counselors. And so those children are keeping that all inside. And so, we see by the time that they get to high school a lot of these kids are treated as adults. I have a seventeen-year-old son. When I look at some of the things that some of my kids who are seventeen -- my Hispanic students who are seventeen -- the things, the responsibilities that they carry, whether its mental, physical, you know, helping the family financially, caring for all the children while the parents are at work, things that my child just doesn’t have an idea about. So, I think we see these kids come to school with--. Oh, and another thing, sometimes I’ll say to the kids, “Hey, can you come in tomorrow like quarter of eight?” “No, maestra, I have to take my little brother to school, and I have to take my cousin to school.” Especially if they were born here and can get a driver’s license, then the family really depends on them for the transportation of younger siblings, of parents to doctors’ appointments. Kids often miss school because they are the driver and the translator for family members to go to appointments.
LA: Right. Are many of the newcomers that arrive in Siler City, are they unaccompanied minors or do some come with family members, or what’s the breakdown there? And how are they maybe received differently depending on that?
CB: Okay, so just this year, I’ve had ten new students who have come across the border unaccompanied. And they have family members who live in Siler City. Maybe an uncle, a cousin. And some of them, I don’t even know how they’ve reached Siler City. I think crossing the border. I think COVID in their country was probably--. They were on their own. Crossing the border, I think was an adventure, coming to Siler City was an adventure, and now the United States Government says, “Well you have to go to school,” and it’s just kind of another adventure for them right now. They don’t really see the benefit in education. They’re almost in a limbo, some of these kids, because they’re living with one family member, they’re not living with their parents. They, definitely right now, in our community, they all hang together. Where our families that have been here for a generation don’t necessarily communicate with them so much. Does that make sense?
LA: Yes.
CB: They have their families, they have their jobs, their kids are in school. And then these newcomer students that we have, they’re still trying to figure out what the whole education system is, what our schedule is like, why do you have to go to four classes a day, why can’t you leave when you want to leave. Honestly, I think these kids have been on their own for a couple years, and now they’re saying, “We have to stay at school? We can’t just walk out? Well at our school, we can just walk out.” And so, it’s not only coming to the United States, it’s just the whole school culture that is really foreign to them. Right now, we have a lot of kids at our school trying to work through that.
LA: And what resources, maybe within the school or just the community, state, are available to those students who are trying to just understand the realities of living in Siler City, North Carolina after coming from a country far away?
CB: Right, right. So, within our school system, I think our school -- Chatham County Schools -- we try to work really hard to help those students. We have counselors, we have bilingual staff. From when you walk in the door of our schools that have dual-language programs -- and even, I think some of the other schools -- the minute you walk in, we have staff who are bilingual who greet you. We have counselors. If they don’t speak Spanish, we make sure that a translator is there. Same with our social workers. We have therapists that offer services to the students. We also have in Chatham County, in Siler City, in particular, we have Vínculo Hispano, which is a great resource for newcomers to help them just with the whole process of-- well anything. Anything that they might encounter, whether it’s government, doctor, whatever, Vínculo Hispano helps them with that. And I think, on the county level, also they really try to help give resources to Siler City. We also have I think in Siler City-- we also culturally try to really recognize the Hispanic culture and celebrate that. You know, whether it might be September 15th, and independence, or whether it’s Cinco de Mayo, or whatever it might be, I think that culture, we do try to celebrate that within Siler City.
LA: Yeah. So, I know we’ve talked quite a bit about the stressors and challenges faced by youth who are immigrants themselves or family members of immigrants. Could you talk a little bit about how these stressors and challenges affect students’ mental or physical health, and then, I know we just touched on the services available, but if you have any others to add that are related directly to mental or physical health--.
CB: Sure. I think particularly since COVID, I think one thing that I see in anxiety. I can speak of, right now, I have two students who are suffering from some anxiety issues, and I think it’s because they are working while attending school and trying to send money home to their families, and they’re teenage girls. And they’re in AP Spanish, and, you know, they have to do some homework, and I definitely try to limit the amount of work that I send home with my students, especially those that work outside of school because they really are trying to help support their families. And so that anxiety comes over into the classroom. You know, when I’m asking a student to write a timed essay on a topic that--. I think we do a good job at Jordan-Matthews offering classes in Spanish. I don’t know that we offer enough levels of the classes in Spanish. We have AP Spanish Language and Culture, we have AP Spanish Literature, we have Spanish for native speakers, we have a history class in Spanish. But what we’ve found right now is we need to start looking at some varying levels of these classes because we’re really just grouping all those kids together. “Oh, you speak Spanish? Oh, we’re going to put you in the history class,” but that’s causing some more anxiety because maybe they’ve never studied at that level before. And so yes, the class is being given in Spanish, but they don’t understand the process of having to take notes, or, you know, “Read a chapter for tomorrow and answer these questions.” So that’s adding another stressor to them. We do have an ESL Academy, which is pretty successful, but I almost think maybe we need to offer some varying levels of our Spanish classes so that students can be more successful, and they wouldn’t be so stressed for that.
LA: Right. Can you talk a little bit about the ESL Academy, and just kind of what that is and how that benefits students?
CB: Sure. So our ESL Academy really exists to help--. Because we’ve had so many students who are coming from a predominantly Spanish-speaking country, we’ve had a few students from other countries, but predominantly Spanish-speaking, we have so many students who are coming from Spanish-speaking countries that we just did not offer enough classes for them to assimilate into our school. So, they started this ESL Academy, is what it’s called, and at least two out of the four classes a day, the students are with the ESL teachers. Now, we offer one of those classes as physical education, so, you know, they’re outside running around and doing physical activity, but we have it within ESL Academy. Another class that we have within ESL Academy is, well, we have a few, whether it’s like reading and writing or public speaking, or whatever it might be. I think the students benefit because they do try to focus on English, but those students are together at least one or two classes a day so they can kind of touch base with each other. Now I think they touch base with each other in Spanish, but at least they get to see each other.
LA: Yeah. Let’s see, so--.
CB: Oh, services.
LA: Yeah.
CB: I’m sorry.
LA: No, it’s okay.
CB: I didn’t talk about the services.
LA: It’s okay, yeah, what services are available to these students that may be experiencing, like you said, anxiety in the classroom, or who’ve brought some other mental health concern to the teachers?
CB: Well, and even physical.
LA: Yeah.
CB: I had a student who, over the course of a couple days, I realized he had a terrible toothache, and I wasn’t quite sure what to do so I contacted the school nurse who kind of called around our town and found a dentist who said, “Oh yes, bring the student. Bring him in, let’s see how we can help him,” and ultimately the student needed a root canal, and this dentist just stepped forward and was like, “Let him pay what he can pay. Yes, this is another human being, and I’m going to help him as much as I can,” which really, I loved that because I was like, “Ok, yes, there are good people.” So, it’s kind of grassroots sometimes how we help our students. In terms of serviced offered right at school, like with our nurse, she’s fantastic, we had a student who needed glasses. The mom didn’t speak any English, but we got a translator who was able to go to the eye doctor with them right in our town, and the local Lion’s Club paid for the student’s classes. So there definitely are good people in our community who want to help our newcomers. At school, definitely I think the resources that are used the most are our--. We offer therapists, and our school counselors, and our social workers, and I think that they are probably utilized the most. And we have translators. We have two translators at school who sit in on those meetings and translate as necessary.
LA: Yeah, thanks for sharing about the services about the services. I really liked how you mentioned kind of the grassroots nature of sometimes how students are able to be helped as kind of like a joint effort between a lot of kind of random people--.
CB: How we get things done.
LA: Yeah. I don’t know if you have any more to expand on that, but if you do, I would love to hear a little bit more about that just--. You know, if a service doesn’t inherently exist, but you kind of can reach out to so-and-so or whatever to provide for student.
CB: Well, we had a student a few years ago, who came to me and she’s a DACA student, and she had applied to a scholarship specifically for DACA students, and she won a scholarship. There are a number of universities in the U.S. that offer free four-year degrees, a four-year education, for DACA students. And so, the school that she was awarded was at Christian Brothers University in Memphis, Tennessee. And so, she came to me, and she said -- and she really wasn’t excited -- and she said, “Well, I won the scholarship.” And I was like, “Oh my gosh!” I was acting crazy, “You won the scholarship!” And she said, “But it’s in Memphis, Tennessee,” and I said, “So?” And she said, “Maestra, how will I get to Memphis?” And I said, “We’re going to work it out.” So, what we did was, we packed up the car, her parents got in the car, we drove, she checked out the college, they had a fantastic program, we drove back, and ultimately, she went there, and she graduated with a four-year degree. So, she’s not our only student who has won the degree at Christian Brothers University. So, each time, I think the teacher support, and I think it’s kind of grassroots because the teachers that help these students who are undocumented or who have no idea about college, but we know that we can get them a scholarship--. You know, we’re still checking up on them after they go away to college. “Hey, how are you doing? What do you need? How can we help you?” So, I think definitely at Jordan-Matthews, there are a lot of teachers who understand the situation the students are in. Now there are some who are new, and they don’t. But the teachers -- there’s probably a good core of five or six teachers -- who understand that student situation, and they try to help however possible. Reach out to the community, reach out to local resources, to get that grassroots stuff done.
LA: Awesome. That’s really heartening to hear that there are people doing good work, even when it’s not necessarily in their job title. So, this kind of leads right into the next question. So, in your experience, were teachers and other support staff -- like counselors, therapists, school social workers -- are they prepared to help students with these specific stressors that are specifically for children who are immigrants themselves, whether documented or undocumented, and then who are children of immigrants?
CB: I think it’s like anything else. I think you have some teachers who really do want to figure out what’s going on with that child in their room, and where is this coming from. And I’m a big proponent--. I would like to do more home visits. I think that we could reach more parents doing home visits. But then there are some teachers who are like, “Whoa, no, I don’t want to go to their home. I just want to come do my job and go home at night.” And that’s all personality, you know, how people are. We have some teachers who, yes, they understand, and they want to know more about it, and then I think we have some teachers that don’t understand, and maybe--. And the interesting thing is, we have some teachers who are from other Spanish-speaking countries -- they’re visiting international teachers -- over the course of the years. Some of them really understand the plight of our immigrants, and some of them don’t, depending on what country they come from. So, one thing that we try to do, we do try to have informational sessions about, that we are a dual-language school, and that, “Information that you send home needs to be in both languages, or if you need to make a call home, let us know and we will translate for you so that you can communicate effectively with the parent.” So, I think being a dual-language school we do try to promote that more, making sure that communication is there, making sure that outreach is there, but there’s always more we could do. Definitely.
LA: And so, I know that you just said that being a dual-language school has helped in that there are more translators available and maybe an increased awareness of the struggle that a lot of these students face. Do you think that is unique to Jordan-Matthews primarily because it’s a dual-language school. In other words, is that awareness present in the other high schools in Chatham County that you’ve seen or is there less awareness in other schools that don’t have this immersion program?
CB: There is less awareness. I don’t think it’s due to the dual-language program. I think it’s due to the demographics. We were invited to another high school in the county, and the experience that my students had at that high school was eye-opening, that we are in the same county, and my students were treated like they were not equals. And it was all addressed, but I don’t think just being a dual-language school has to do with it. I think it’s the demographics of the school where you are, and the people that you have in the school.
LA: Do you see in Siler City, or in Chatham County more broadly, a stigmatization or kind of marginalization of your students and their families, and if so, how does that manifest and what is done about it?
CB: Sure. Language and economics are a powerful thing. It’s no secret that the families in Siler City don’t have much money, don’t have many resources. Would I like to see more resources in our schools? Always. Now, that being said, as the dual-language chairperson at Jordan-Matthews, Chatham County Schools has been great in our program. They really work with us. Just about anything I ask for, we get for our students. So, I think resources are really good. I do think that public perception--. How should I say this? Coming out of COVID and, I don’t want to be too political, I’m really not a political person, but I thought that I saw more negativity during the last presidential administration towards our immigrants. And so, coming out of COVID, I do think that there is a little more negativity towards immigrants as a whole, not only in our town, our county, our state, our country. And so that’s something that we’re always working on to try to break that stigma of, “Yes, our students at Jordan-Matthews might be majority Hispanic. They might be poor, but don’t try to tell me that they’re gang members, and don’t try to put on stereotypes that don’t exist.” So yes, I think that’s something that we’re always working for, to promote the excellent things happening at our school with our students to break stereotypes that people have.
LA: And what effect do those stereotypes have on students themselves? Is it something that they even think about or notice or is it something that they take really personally? Does it vary? What have you noticed?
CB: I notice it because as a white woman, there are white people in our community that think I share the same ideas that they do because I’m white. And so, people will make comments to me about, “All those Mexicans.” I’m like, “Well, actually, they’re from Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Colombia, Venezuela,” and then they kind of look at me, you know. So, are the students aware of the stigma? I think when they’re in our school, they’re maybe not necessarily aware of that, but when they go to other schools--. You know, there’s a brand-new high school on the other side of the county, and I think the kids do say, “Wow, why don’t we have this? Is it because we’re not as good?” And as a teacher you have to go, “No, that’s not why. No, you guys are awesome.” But I do think perceptions of--. And I don’t think it’s Chatham County, it’s not our Chatham County Schools, it’s not our local government, it’s more members of the community have negative perceptions about our kids. And so those are definitely stereotypes. We’re always trying to lift our kids up and remind them of how fantastic they are. And we’re trying to grow our own. We try to have Hispanic students who go off to college and maybe want to be teachers come back so that our students can see themselves reflected in the staff of our school. But that being said, obviously, I don’t look like my students, but I think they know that I support them to the very end, you know. But it would be nice if they could see themselves reflected in the community.
LA: Yeah, I love that you brought that up. What benefits do you think students receive from having a teacher who does reflect themselves. Like, I know that Jordan-Matthews has quote a few teachers who are native Spanish-speakers and are not originally from the United States, and so even if their countries of origin aren’t the same and their stories are very different, what benefits do students have from having those kinds of teachers.
CB: Sure. Just being able to relate to that person or just being able to say, “Hey that teacher not only looks like me, but is from another country.” Or, “that teacher had that experience like I did.” We definitely had some teachers who came here as immigrants and now they’re citizens. So, it makes it more possible also, like, “Hey, they did that so maybe I can do that.” I did have a conversation this year with one of my students, who is a senior, and I said to that student, it’s a female, and I said, “How do you feel about this topic? Do you feel bad sometimes that we don’t have more representation,” and she said, “Oh yeah, I would love to have teachers that look like me.” I mean, I love her. We get along great, but I apologized. I’m like, “I’m so sorry.” So that’s something that we have to work on as a country, I think. Valuing education, valuing teachers so that we get more diversity and more people going into education so then our students and our class can look up and go, “Hey, that person looks like me,” or “Hey, they did it so I can do it.” I think that is really important.
LA: Yeah, and that is definitely an issue way bigger than Siler City, Chatham County. Valuing teachers to encourage everyone to join the profession is a huge issue across the country.
CB: Yeah, as a mom of boys, I mean, I wish my kids had more male teachers. So, I can see where my Latino students, there is--. Now, that being said, I mean we have four, five, six teachers right now who are Latinos, but we have almost nine hundred students. We could have a whole bunch more.
LA: And what’s interesting is that some schools don’t even have four, five, six, you know. In this county, which is interesting. Speaking of teachers and school staff, what resources or trainings or really anything, do you think could better prepare them to work with students like the ones we’ve been talking about.
CB: Yeah, so I think a lot of the training that teachers go through when they have professional development, they feel like it’s not valuable or, “How can I use this in my classroom?” We had a student a few years ago who now has a full scholarship to Wake Forest University. She’s fantastic, and she actually came -- she was newly arrived, she was an ESL student, but she was passionate about the environment -- and she came and did a presentation to the faculty about starting a recycling program at school, how important recycling was, and she did it in English of a student who’d only been there a year. It was fantastic because she was so passionate about this topic, and all the teachers were like, “Wow, listening to this student, and she’s in ESL, and she’s really trying, she’s really--.” And that made that connection with that student with the faculty. So I think one thing that we need to do is just remind faculty members about where these students are from, what their backgrounds are, but that they are super smart and that they’re passionate about different topics, and things like that. Another thing I think that we have done well in the past and that we need to remember to do well, is a lot about language acquisition and, “How do students learn in in your English classes, and how can they take that learning, whether it’s in math or science or English or whatever class it is, and put it back into their own language?” Our teachers are spending a lot of time translating and trying to figure out how to best reach these kids whose first language is Spanish, who are newcomers. And I don’t think it’s just Siler City or Chatham County. I think across North Carolina, across the United States, we need to try to do more to help teachers with second-language acquisition with their students.
LA: Yeah. I guess this is kind of going back just a little bit, but what might make a student more or less likely to reach out to teachers or support services for help? You know, you talked about building the relationship between students and faculty and how that increases awareness and visibility, but are there other thing that make a student more likely or less likely to reach out to school staff for help if needed?
CB: Definitely our newcomer students are not going to reach out to people like me if they don’t know me. They see me as a white lady. They don’t know that I’m trying to help them. So, establishing the relationship with your students is so important. That’s why I think at Jordan-Matthews, it’s really good that the first people that they encounter, you know, they walk in the building and our two translators are both Hispanic, super nice, warm, inviting people, really try to get to know the kids, help them out, and so then they’re the translators for the guidance counselors. That kind of breaks the ice with that. So, I do know that a lot of those kids who’ve just come to our country, immediately go to our secretaries because they’re bilingual and they can help them out. So, building the relationships, it’s really important. And also, I think for the kids to see you in other roles. Maybe they see you helping a different Hispanic student in Spanish or maybe a topic that you talk about in class they think, “Oh, well maybe this person’s not the stereotypical white person.” But I think for our newcomers, having those people who speak Spanish is a game-changer for them. I think they’re the people that they relate to first.
LA: Right.
CB: Does that help?
LA: Yeah, that’s great. I think those are all the questions that I have. I have really enjoyed talking with you. Are there any parting thoughts? If not, I will go ahead and end it here.
CB: No, thank you for letting me participate. I appreciate it.
LA: Of course, it’s been awesome.
CB: Okay.
[00:43:34] END OF RECORDING
Transcribed by Lindley Andrew on April 20th, 2023
Es: Transcripción
[00:00:00] START OF RECORDING
Lindley Andrew: Hi, my name is Lindley Andrew, and I’m here with Cindy Bredenberg, a high school teacher. It is April 15th, 2023, and we’re here in Chatham County, North Carolina. Today we’ll be discussing the effects of immigration-related stressors on the health and well-being of youth in Latinx immigrant communities, specifically Siler City, North Carolina. Cindy, just to get your oral consent, do I have your permission to continue interviewing you and for it to go on the New Roots website?
Cynthia Bredenberg: You do.
LA: Awesome. So just to start out, can you tell me a little bit about your school and the community that it’s in?
CB: Sure. I teach at Jordan-Matthews High School, which is located in Siler City, North Carolina. We’re maybe about forty minutes from Chapel Hill and about twenty minutes from Asheboro. We’re a small community. We’re located in Chatham County, and so our school district-- the northern part of our district is right in Chapel Hill, but for us, we’re kind of on the line with Randolph County, so a totally different demographic than what you would find near Chapel Hill. So, our school has about 850 students right now, and we’re sixty percent Hispanic, twenty-five percent Caucasian, and fifteen percent African American.
LA: Awesome. So, can you tell me a little bit about your-- what you do as a teacher, what you teach, specifically, and just kind of like the culture of your school?
CB: Sure. I have been teaching at Jordan-Matthews-- this is my fifteenth year. I am a non-native Spanish speaker, and when I was hired as a Spanish teacher, they asked me if I could teach native speakers Spanish because there was a need for that, so I said, “Sure!” [laughs] So that was my first time doing that, but I’ve been there for fifteen years now. I teach everything from Spanish one, two, three, and four, that would be for our non-native, non-heritage speakers. I’ve taught Spanish one and two native speakers, I teach AP Spanish Language and Culture, and I also teach a Syracuse University Project Advance class, Spanish 201. So, I pretty much taught anything at Jordan-Matthews, anything and everything. I work with students who speak English at home and students who speak Spanish at home, but predominantly students who speak Spanish at home.
LA: Awesome. And so, I guess because we’re going to be talking about immigrant youth and families, in your experience working with these kinds of students and their families, what have you observed are some of the most pressing stressors by these individuals? And how have students brought these stressors to your attention?
CB: Sure. Obviously, economics play a huge role in our families, and that’s a stressor. Over the fifteen years of working at Jordan-Matthews, I’ve had many students who worked night jobs. They might go to work at 5:30 in the afternoon and work until 3:00 in the morning, and then they go to bed for a couple hours and then come to school. I’ve had students who-- when I started at J-M, we still had students who were working in the cotton fields. And I had students who would go and pick cotton when the sun came up and then they would come to school, and then they would go back and pick cotton in Lee County. Maybe not so much in Chatham County, but they were traveling to where their parents were working. So, economics are a big thing. The lack of safe housing, sustainable housing. We do have about three trailer parks in Siler City, and so I believe that there is housing available, but it’s not quality housing, and some of the trailer parks where students live are very old, and it’s no place that you would ever want to live, yourself. So affordable housing that’s safe and quality housing-- finances are a huge part, and then also I think the stressors of children always worried about whether or not their parents will be taken away. I think that plays a huge roll in our students’ everyday lives.
LA: Yeah, and how have students typically brought these issues to your attention? Is it just kind of something you observe, or do they often reach out to you, or what is that like?
CB: So, it’s a little bit of both. Being that I’m established at the school, a lot of families know me, and so they feel comfortable coming to me. But if it’s a student who’s new, and they don’t know me -- you know, I’m a white lady who has an accent when she speaks Spanish -- so they don’t necessarily trust me right off the bat that, you know, we have to earn that trust. But, for a lot of the kids, they know me, I know their parents now, and so I think they probably do feel a little bit more comfortable coming to talk to me. And some, I think, with our students who are newly arrived to the United States, because I speak Spanish and they speak Spanish and they don’t speak English, I think it’s probably out of desperation, maybe, that they come and see me because they don’t know who else to talk to and I’m a teacher that speaks Spanish. Being a woman, I do have girls who will come and talk to me; maybe they wouldn’t talk to anyone else.
LA: Yeah, and just to kind of clarify and give a little bit of a distinction, could you distinguish between some of the challenges that are specific to students who are immigrants themselves, maybe newcomers like you just mentioned, versus the challenges faced by students who maybe have parents or family members who are immigrants, but they themselves were born in the U.S.?
CB: Sure. I didn’t really know about that distinction until I really saw it in my classroom. About ten years ago when I was teaching an AP Spanish class, I had students who were born here, but their parents were immigrants -- Hispanic students -- and in the same class, I had Hispanic students who had just come to our country. And I was really shocked and surprised by the way that the students who were citizens treated the non-citizens. Not overtly rude, but it was almost like passive aggressive, the way that they treated them. So that was really my first eye-opener to, “Wow they don’t see them as equals” or “They don’t see them as part of them.” So over the years we really try to work with kids at our school to try to get the kids who were born here and see themselves as, although they may be of Mexican or Guatemalan descent, they see themselves as American-- how can we get them to help the students who are new to our school. And so that’s something that we work on. So those students that are new to our school oftentimes they only socialize with each other, so they’re only speaking Spanish. Oftentimes they don’t know how to navigate the school system, they don’t know how to use the computer, they don’t -- because they’re only talking with each other in Spanish -- it does take them longer to learn English. And one thing that’s good about our school is we have a lot of courses that are offered in Spanish. In some ways I think that’s bad because it doesn’t enable those students to get out with the other students and to meet other kids. So that’s something that I think we try to work on to help our kids, who are typically an ESL student, interact with other students in the building. The other thing is getting those students who are U.S. citizens to work with those kids who are newcomers, to make them see that, you know, “We’re all human,” and they’re not so far removed from that. The students who are citizens already have many more opportunities than the students who aren’t. I have students who maybe came here at three years old or four years old and don’t remember anything about Mexico, but they’re not citizens. They receive an education, just like everybody else, and then when they’re seniors in high school and they’re applying to college, it’s really hard for them, really difficult to realize that their friends sitting next to them can pay a thousand dollars to go to the local community college, and they’re going to have to pay eight thousand dollars. And it just doesn’t seem fair. And it’s not fair. So that’s one thing I see also between citizens and non-citizens.
LA: Yeah. And do you think that many people in Siler City, in North Carolina, are aware of that kind of distinction between youth who are immigrants themselves versus youth who are children of immigrants? Because I often see them lumped together in a lot of popular narratives, and so is that something that you’ve noticed?
CB: Definitely lumped together. If we’re talking about Siler City, in particular, the white or African American population who are established in Siler City, they often lump all of our immigrants together as Mexican, and they do not understand the difference between if a child is a citizen or not a citizen, the opportunities that are afforded to the child that can apply for FAFSA, for financial aid, for all the scholarships, as compared to the child who is just as smart and has worked just as hard in high school and they don’t have those opportunities. No, people definitely don’t see that. So it’s interesting, I think, as -- I’m not originally from North Carolina. Like I said, I’ve been here fifteen years, so as an outsider, it’s interesting for me to see other groups of people that have historically been disadvantaged, how they treat now these Hispanic people who are now disadvantaged. It’s an interesting thing for me to see as an outsider.
LA: Yeah. Could you just elaborate on that just a little bit more?
CB: Sure. In Siler City, for example, we have a charter school. And the charter school, historically, was for white families. And now we have a lot of African American families sending their students there because they don’t want to send them to the public school because we are sixty percent Hispanic. Whereas so many of our Hispanic students at school, they’re fantastic, they’re super smart, they’re great, they’re funny, they’re great kids, but there’s this view of, “Oh, we’re not going to send our kids there.” And so, again, as an outsider, I see it as, “Well wait a minute, that’s how you were treated years ago,” but people don’t see it that way. They see it as the charter school is providing more opportunities for their kids. But I definitely see that our Hispanic students, and Hispanic families, are treated as second-class citizens many times in Siler City.
LA: Yeah, thanks for kind of giving a little bit more detail about that. I think that’s really important, and--.
CB: I think--. Can I speak to that also about Chatham County?
LA: Yeah.
CB: Because in--. So in Chatham County we have two elementary schools that offer a dual-language program. So, in Siler City, we have many more Hispanic students in the program than we have white or African American. Not that we don’t have the kids to fill those seats. The parents aren’t sending their kids to the dual-language school. So, in Siler City, the majority of the students in the program are Hispanic. In the same county, just forty minutes away, right near Chapel Hill, we have another elementary school, North Chatham, and the predominantly white students go there, and we don’t have enough Hispanic students. So the interesting part is, that in North Chatham, those white parents value their children being bilingual, but in the same county -- which, we know those parents are predominantly from other places, they’re not from Chatham County originally. Whereas in the same county, in Siler City, the white and African American parents from Chatham County do not typically send their kids to the dual-language school. They do not value their children being with those other kids, and they do not value their children being bilingual. It’s very interesting.
LA: That is really interesting. And in your fifteen years, have you noticed any shift in that perception or has it kind of maintained?
CB: I think it’s gotten worse. I think for a while we had parents sending their children to Siler City Elementary. Now, that speaks to the administration that was at Siler City Elementary at the time. A local person who was the principal at Siler City Elementary, I think the parents valued that person’s opinion. But I think as time has gone on, we see more of them sending their children to the charter schools.
LA: Interesting. Yeah, that would be fascinating to do research about, and collect perspectives and kind of map those.
CB: If people would be honest with their perspectives, it would be very interesting, yes.
LA: This is kind of switching gears a little bit, but in your experience knowing some mixed-status families -- which for listeners who may not exactly know what mixed-status is, that’s when there are some family members who are documented and others who aren’t -- what are some of the additional responsibilities and challenges that U.S. citizen-born children take on to help their undocumented parents or family members.
CB: Yeah, or siblings.
LA: Or siblings.
CB: We’ve had families at our school that two siblings have been citizens and one or two have not been citizens, and that’s so hard, when one of the children gets into college and applies for financial aid, and can go on, and the other child cannot, although they’re super smart. One thing I see when the parents were not born here, but the children were, or the children were raised here from a young age, the children oftentimes act not only as a translator, but the children act as the go-between between the school, between the local government, between the doctor’s office, dentist office-- and that’s a big responsibility. It’s also-- language is a powerful tool. Many times, I’ve seen children who maybe don’t want to tell their parents everything that’s being translated. It may be an uncomfortable topic, or maybe that they don’t want their parents to know, or maybe even they’re not sure how to translate some of the conversation. So that puts a big stressor on the child. And again, we have families that, you know, children are told not to answer the door. Children are told, maybe, not to talk to police. Children are told not to divulge any information to teachers or to counselors. And so those children are keeping that all inside. And so, we see by the time that they get to high school a lot of these kids are treated as adults. I have a seventeen-year-old son. When I look at some of the things that some of my kids who are seventeen -- my Hispanic students who are seventeen -- the things, the responsibilities that they carry, whether its mental, physical, you know, helping the family financially, caring for all the children while the parents are at work, things that my child just doesn’t have an idea about. So, I think we see these kids come to school with--. Oh, and another thing, sometimes I’ll say to the kids, “Hey, can you come in tomorrow like quarter of eight?” “No, maestra, I have to take my little brother to school, and I have to take my cousin to school.” Especially if they were born here and can get a driver’s license, then the family really depends on them for the transportation of younger siblings, of parents to doctors’ appointments. Kids often miss school because they are the driver and the translator for family members to go to appointments.
LA: Right. Are many of the newcomers that arrive in Siler City, are they unaccompanied minors or do some come with family members, or what’s the breakdown there? And how are they maybe received differently depending on that?
CB: Okay, so just this year, I’ve had ten new students who have come across the border unaccompanied. And they have family members who live in Siler City. Maybe an uncle, a cousin. And some of them, I don’t even know how they’ve reached Siler City. I think crossing the border. I think COVID in their country was probably--. They were on their own. Crossing the border, I think was an adventure, coming to Siler City was an adventure, and now the United States Government says, “Well you have to go to school,” and it’s just kind of another adventure for them right now. They don’t really see the benefit in education. They’re almost in a limbo, some of these kids, because they’re living with one family member, they’re not living with their parents. They, definitely right now, in our community, they all hang together. Where our families that have been here for a generation don’t necessarily communicate with them so much. Does that make sense?
LA: Yes.
CB: They have their families, they have their jobs, their kids are in school. And then these newcomer students that we have, they’re still trying to figure out what the whole education system is, what our schedule is like, why do you have to go to four classes a day, why can’t you leave when you want to leave. Honestly, I think these kids have been on their own for a couple years, and now they’re saying, “We have to stay at school? We can’t just walk out? Well at our school, we can just walk out.” And so, it’s not only coming to the United States, it’s just the whole school culture that is really foreign to them. Right now, we have a lot of kids at our school trying to work through that.
LA: And what resources, maybe within the school or just the community, state, are available to those students who are trying to just understand the realities of living in Siler City, North Carolina after coming from a country far away?
CB: Right, right. So, within our school system, I think our school -- Chatham County Schools -- we try to work really hard to help those students. We have counselors, we have bilingual staff. From when you walk in the door of our schools that have dual-language programs -- and even, I think some of the other schools -- the minute you walk in, we have staff who are bilingual who greet you. We have counselors. If they don’t speak Spanish, we make sure that a translator is there. Same with our social workers. We have therapists that offer services to the students. We also have in Chatham County, in Siler City, in particular, we have Vínculo Hispano, which is a great resource for newcomers to help them just with the whole process of-- well anything. Anything that they might encounter, whether it’s government, doctor, whatever, Vínculo Hispano helps them with that. And I think, on the county level, also they really try to help give resources to Siler City. We also have I think in Siler City-- we also culturally try to really recognize the Hispanic culture and celebrate that. You know, whether it might be September 15th, and independence, or whether it’s Cinco de Mayo, or whatever it might be, I think that culture, we do try to celebrate that within Siler City.
LA: Yeah. So, I know we’ve talked quite a bit about the stressors and challenges faced by youth who are immigrants themselves or family members of immigrants. Could you talk a little bit about how these stressors and challenges affect students’ mental or physical health, and then, I know we just touched on the services available, but if you have any others to add that are related directly to mental or physical health--.
CB: Sure. I think particularly since COVID, I think one thing that I see in anxiety. I can speak of, right now, I have two students who are suffering from some anxiety issues, and I think it’s because they are working while attending school and trying to send money home to their families, and they’re teenage girls. And they’re in AP Spanish, and, you know, they have to do some homework, and I definitely try to limit the amount of work that I send home with my students, especially those that work outside of school because they really are trying to help support their families. And so that anxiety comes over into the classroom. You know, when I’m asking a student to write a timed essay on a topic that--. I think we do a good job at Jordan-Matthews offering classes in Spanish. I don’t know that we offer enough levels of the classes in Spanish. We have AP Spanish Language and Culture, we have AP Spanish Literature, we have Spanish for native speakers, we have a history class in Spanish. But what we’ve found right now is we need to start looking at some varying levels of these classes because we’re really just grouping all those kids together. “Oh, you speak Spanish? Oh, we’re going to put you in the history class,” but that’s causing some more anxiety because maybe they’ve never studied at that level before. And so yes, the class is being given in Spanish, but they don’t understand the process of having to take notes, or, you know, “Read a chapter for tomorrow and answer these questions.” So that’s adding another stressor to them. We do have an ESL Academy, which is pretty successful, but I almost think maybe we need to offer some varying levels of our Spanish classes so that students can be more successful, and they wouldn’t be so stressed for that.
LA: Right. Can you talk a little bit about the ESL Academy, and just kind of what that is and how that benefits students?
CB: Sure. So our ESL Academy really exists to help--. Because we’ve had so many students who are coming from a predominantly Spanish-speaking country, we’ve had a few students from other countries, but predominantly Spanish-speaking, we have so many students who are coming from Spanish-speaking countries that we just did not offer enough classes for them to assimilate into our school. So, they started this ESL Academy, is what it’s called, and at least two out of the four classes a day, the students are with the ESL teachers. Now, we offer one of those classes as physical education, so, you know, they’re outside running around and doing physical activity, but we have it within ESL Academy. Another class that we have within ESL Academy is, well, we have a few, whether it’s like reading and writing or public speaking, or whatever it might be. I think the students benefit because they do try to focus on English, but those students are together at least one or two classes a day so they can kind of touch base with each other. Now I think they touch base with each other in Spanish, but at least they get to see each other.
LA: Yeah. Let’s see, so--.
CB: Oh, services.
LA: Yeah.
CB: I’m sorry.
LA: No, it’s okay.
CB: I didn’t talk about the services.
LA: It’s okay, yeah, what services are available to these students that may be experiencing, like you said, anxiety in the classroom, or who’ve brought some other mental health concern to the teachers?
CB: Well, and even physical.
LA: Yeah.
CB: I had a student who, over the course of a couple days, I realized he had a terrible toothache, and I wasn’t quite sure what to do so I contacted the school nurse who kind of called around our town and found a dentist who said, “Oh yes, bring the student. Bring him in, let’s see how we can help him,” and ultimately the student needed a root canal, and this dentist just stepped forward and was like, “Let him pay what he can pay. Yes, this is another human being, and I’m going to help him as much as I can,” which really, I loved that because I was like, “Ok, yes, there are good people.” So, it’s kind of grassroots sometimes how we help our students. In terms of serviced offered right at school, like with our nurse, she’s fantastic, we had a student who needed glasses. The mom didn’t speak any English, but we got a translator who was able to go to the eye doctor with them right in our town, and the local Lion’s Club paid for the student’s classes. So there definitely are good people in our community who want to help our newcomers. At school, definitely I think the resources that are used the most are our--. We offer therapists, and our school counselors, and our social workers, and I think that they are probably utilized the most. And we have translators. We have two translators at school who sit in on those meetings and translate as necessary.
LA: Yeah, thanks for sharing about the services about the services. I really liked how you mentioned kind of the grassroots nature of sometimes how students are able to be helped as kind of like a joint effort between a lot of kind of random people--.
CB: How we get things done.
LA: Yeah. I don’t know if you have any more to expand on that, but if you do, I would love to hear a little bit more about that just--. You know, if a service doesn’t inherently exist, but you kind of can reach out to so-and-so or whatever to provide for student.
CB: Well, we had a student a few years ago, who came to me and she’s a DACA student, and she had applied to a scholarship specifically for DACA students, and she won a scholarship. There are a number of universities in the U.S. that offer free four-year degrees, a four-year education, for DACA students. And so, the school that she was awarded was at Christian Brothers University in Memphis, Tennessee. And so, she came to me, and she said -- and she really wasn’t excited -- and she said, “Well, I won the scholarship.” And I was like, “Oh my gosh!” I was acting crazy, “You won the scholarship!” And she said, “But it’s in Memphis, Tennessee,” and I said, “So?” And she said, “Maestra, how will I get to Memphis?” And I said, “We’re going to work it out.” So, what we did was, we packed up the car, her parents got in the car, we drove, she checked out the college, they had a fantastic program, we drove back, and ultimately, she went there, and she graduated with a four-year degree. So, she’s not our only student who has won the degree at Christian Brothers University. So, each time, I think the teacher support, and I think it’s kind of grassroots because the teachers that help these students who are undocumented or who have no idea about college, but we know that we can get them a scholarship--. You know, we’re still checking up on them after they go away to college. “Hey, how are you doing? What do you need? How can we help you?” So, I think definitely at Jordan-Matthews, there are a lot of teachers who understand the situation the students are in. Now there are some who are new, and they don’t. But the teachers -- there’s probably a good core of five or six teachers -- who understand that student situation, and they try to help however possible. Reach out to the community, reach out to local resources, to get that grassroots stuff done.
LA: Awesome. That’s really heartening to hear that there are people doing good work, even when it’s not necessarily in their job title. So, this kind of leads right into the next question. So, in your experience, were teachers and other support staff -- like counselors, therapists, school social workers -- are they prepared to help students with these specific stressors that are specifically for children who are immigrants themselves, whether documented or undocumented, and then who are children of immigrants?
CB: I think it’s like anything else. I think you have some teachers who really do want to figure out what’s going on with that child in their room, and where is this coming from. And I’m a big proponent--. I would like to do more home visits. I think that we could reach more parents doing home visits. But then there are some teachers who are like, “Whoa, no, I don’t want to go to their home. I just want to come do my job and go home at night.” And that’s all personality, you know, how people are. We have some teachers who, yes, they understand, and they want to know more about it, and then I think we have some teachers that don’t understand, and maybe--. And the interesting thing is, we have some teachers who are from other Spanish-speaking countries -- they’re visiting international teachers -- over the course of the years. Some of them really understand the plight of our immigrants, and some of them don’t, depending on what country they come from. So, one thing that we try to do, we do try to have informational sessions about, that we are a dual-language school, and that, “Information that you send home needs to be in both languages, or if you need to make a call home, let us know and we will translate for you so that you can communicate effectively with the parent.” So, I think being a dual-language school we do try to promote that more, making sure that communication is there, making sure that outreach is there, but there’s always more we could do. Definitely.
LA: And so, I know that you just said that being a dual-language school has helped in that there are more translators available and maybe an increased awareness of the struggle that a lot of these students face. Do you think that is unique to Jordan-Matthews primarily because it’s a dual-language school. In other words, is that awareness present in the other high schools in Chatham County that you’ve seen or is there less awareness in other schools that don’t have this immersion program?
CB: There is less awareness. I don’t think it’s due to the dual-language program. I think it’s due to the demographics. We were invited to another high school in the county, and the experience that my students had at that high school was eye-opening, that we are in the same county, and my students were treated like they were not equals. And it was all addressed, but I don’t think just being a dual-language school has to do with it. I think it’s the demographics of the school where you are, and the people that you have in the school.
LA: Do you see in Siler City, or in Chatham County more broadly, a stigmatization or kind of marginalization of your students and their families, and if so, how does that manifest and what is done about it?
CB: Sure. Language and economics are a powerful thing. It’s no secret that the families in Siler City don’t have much money, don’t have many resources. Would I like to see more resources in our schools? Always. Now, that being said, as the dual-language chairperson at Jordan-Matthews, Chatham County Schools has been great in our program. They really work with us. Just about anything I ask for, we get for our students. So, I think resources are really good. I do think that public perception--. How should I say this? Coming out of COVID and, I don’t want to be too political, I’m really not a political person, but I thought that I saw more negativity during the last presidential administration towards our immigrants. And so, coming out of COVID, I do think that there is a little more negativity towards immigrants as a whole, not only in our town, our county, our state, our country. And so that’s something that we’re always working on to try to break that stigma of, “Yes, our students at Jordan-Matthews might be majority Hispanic. They might be poor, but don’t try to tell me that they’re gang members, and don’t try to put on stereotypes that don’t exist.” So yes, I think that’s something that we’re always working for, to promote the excellent things happening at our school with our students to break stereotypes that people have.
LA: And what effect do those stereotypes have on students themselves? Is it something that they even think about or notice or is it something that they take really personally? Does it vary? What have you noticed?
CB: I notice it because as a white woman, there are white people in our community that think I share the same ideas that they do because I’m white. And so, people will make comments to me about, “All those Mexicans.” I’m like, “Well, actually, they’re from Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Colombia, Venezuela,” and then they kind of look at me, you know. So, are the students aware of the stigma? I think when they’re in our school, they’re maybe not necessarily aware of that, but when they go to other schools--. You know, there’s a brand-new high school on the other side of the county, and I think the kids do say, “Wow, why don’t we have this? Is it because we’re not as good?” And as a teacher you have to go, “No, that’s not why. No, you guys are awesome.” But I do think perceptions of--. And I don’t think it’s Chatham County, it’s not our Chatham County Schools, it’s not our local government, it’s more members of the community have negative perceptions about our kids. And so those are definitely stereotypes. We’re always trying to lift our kids up and remind them of how fantastic they are. And we’re trying to grow our own. We try to have Hispanic students who go off to college and maybe want to be teachers come back so that our students can see themselves reflected in the staff of our school. But that being said, obviously, I don’t look like my students, but I think they know that I support them to the very end, you know. But it would be nice if they could see themselves reflected in the community.
LA: Yeah, I love that you brought that up. What benefits do you think students receive from having a teacher who does reflect themselves. Like, I know that Jordan-Matthews has quote a few teachers who are native Spanish-speakers and are not originally from the United States, and so even if their countries of origin aren’t the same and their stories are very different, what benefits do students have from having those kinds of teachers.
CB: Sure. Just being able to relate to that person or just being able to say, “Hey that teacher not only looks like me, but is from another country.” Or, “that teacher had that experience like I did.” We definitely had some teachers who came here as immigrants and now they’re citizens. So, it makes it more possible also, like, “Hey, they did that so maybe I can do that.” I did have a conversation this year with one of my students, who is a senior, and I said to that student, it’s a female, and I said, “How do you feel about this topic? Do you feel bad sometimes that we don’t have more representation,” and she said, “Oh yeah, I would love to have teachers that look like me.” I mean, I love her. We get along great, but I apologized. I’m like, “I’m so sorry.” So that’s something that we have to work on as a country, I think. Valuing education, valuing teachers so that we get more diversity and more people going into education so then our students and our class can look up and go, “Hey, that person looks like me,” or “Hey, they did it so I can do it.” I think that is really important.
LA: Yeah, and that is definitely an issue way bigger than Siler City, Chatham County. Valuing teachers to encourage everyone to join the profession is a huge issue across the country.
CB: Yeah, as a mom of boys, I mean, I wish my kids had more male teachers. So, I can see where my Latino students, there is--. Now, that being said, I mean we have four, five, six teachers right now who are Latinos, but we have almost nine hundred students. We could have a whole bunch more.
LA: And what’s interesting is that some schools don’t even have four, five, six, you know. In this county, which is interesting. Speaking of teachers and school staff, what resources or trainings or really anything, do you think could better prepare them to work with students like the ones we’ve been talking about.
CB: Yeah, so I think a lot of the training that teachers go through when they have professional development, they feel like it’s not valuable or, “How can I use this in my classroom?” We had a student a few years ago who now has a full scholarship to Wake Forest University. She’s fantastic, and she actually came -- she was newly arrived, she was an ESL student, but she was passionate about the environment -- and she came and did a presentation to the faculty about starting a recycling program at school, how important recycling was, and she did it in English of a student who’d only been there a year. It was fantastic because she was so passionate about this topic, and all the teachers were like, “Wow, listening to this student, and she’s in ESL, and she’s really trying, she’s really--.” And that made that connection with that student with the faculty. So I think one thing that we need to do is just remind faculty members about where these students are from, what their backgrounds are, but that they are super smart and that they’re passionate about different topics, and things like that. Another thing I think that we have done well in the past and that we need to remember to do well, is a lot about language acquisition and, “How do students learn in in your English classes, and how can they take that learning, whether it’s in math or science or English or whatever class it is, and put it back into their own language?” Our teachers are spending a lot of time translating and trying to figure out how to best reach these kids whose first language is Spanish, who are newcomers. And I don’t think it’s just Siler City or Chatham County. I think across North Carolina, across the United States, we need to try to do more to help teachers with second-language acquisition with their students.
LA: Yeah. I guess this is kind of going back just a little bit, but what might make a student more or less likely to reach out to teachers or support services for help? You know, you talked about building the relationship between students and faculty and how that increases awareness and visibility, but are there other thing that make a student more likely or less likely to reach out to school staff for help if needed?
CB: Definitely our newcomer students are not going to reach out to people like me if they don’t know me. They see me as a white lady. They don’t know that I’m trying to help them. So, establishing the relationship with your students is so important. That’s why I think at Jordan-Matthews, it’s really good that the first people that they encounter, you know, they walk in the building and our two translators are both Hispanic, super nice, warm, inviting people, really try to get to know the kids, help them out, and so then they’re the translators for the guidance counselors. That kind of breaks the ice with that. So, I do know that a lot of those kids who’ve just come to our country, immediately go to our secretaries because they’re bilingual and they can help them out. So, building the relationships, it’s really important. And also, I think for the kids to see you in other roles. Maybe they see you helping a different Hispanic student in Spanish or maybe a topic that you talk about in class they think, “Oh, well maybe this person’s not the stereotypical white person.” But I think for our newcomers, having those people who speak Spanish is a game-changer for them. I think they’re the people that they relate to first.
LA: Right.
CB: Does that help?
LA: Yeah, that’s great. I think those are all the questions that I have. I have really enjoyed talking with you. Are there any parting thoughts? If not, I will go ahead and end it here.
CB: No, thank you for letting me participate. I appreciate it.
LA: Of course, it’s been awesome.
CB: Okay.
[00:43:34] END OF RECORDING
Transcribed by Lindley Andrew on April 20th, 2023
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R-1013 -- Bredenberg, Cynthia.
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Cindy Bredenberg discusses her experiences and observations as a Spanish teacher at Jordan-Matthews High School in Siler City, North Carolina. She shares about her school’s demographics and the school culture and reflects on her experiences working with students throughout her fifteen years working at Jordan-Matthews, many of whom Latinx. Cindy also describes the challenges faced by many of her students, specifically those related to financial strain, the lack of quality affordable housing, anxiety, and the impact of stigmatization by community members. She differentiates between the experiences of her U.S.-born students and those who have migrated to North Carolina from other countries, and she shares some challenges specific to her undocumented students, including the stress of financially providing for family members in their home country and lack of access to federal financial aid for higher education. Cindy also details the importance of relationship-building between teachers and students and explains how students are more likely to reach out to teachers and school staff for help if they have a previously established trusting relationship. She also describes the “grassroots” nature of helping students and shares some of the in-school and community-based resources available to students and those specifically targeted to help students newly arriving from other countries. Finally, she describes the rise of charter schools in Chatham County and shifts in school demographics.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-04-15
Publisher
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29355">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
R1013_Audio.mp3
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/f885adfe3707c930ffcdc83129c73612.mp3
33409c2b16ab0de166459e8cfb034f72
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/38e1dacb2d7c12b3fab2517e8b43b0c9.pdf
473283bdd66a8a65480bf8369871a41f
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-1012
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
Fecha
2023-04-18
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Molina, Ana Muñoz.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Students
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
2002
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Camagüey -- Camagüey -- Cuba
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Chapel Hill -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-77.9055 21.39248),2022,1;POINT(-79.047753 35.905035),2023,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Ciano, Anthony.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Ana Muñoz Molina is a student at UNC Chapel Hill from Cuba who shares her experience emigrating to the United States and her role within the Latino community in Chapel Hill and Miami, where she lives with her family. Ana discusses her family’s struggles to make ends meet in Cuba and discusses the challenges she faces to feel integrated within the university’s Hispanic community, made up mostly of first-generation Americans whose experiences differ from the conditions in which she was brought up both in Miami and under the Cuban authoritarian regime. While Ana is one of over a million people of Cuban heritage living in the Miami area and her experiences may be commonplace in south Florida, Ana shares the challenges of connecting to her culture in a university environment. She also provides advice for those in similar situations: coming to the United States, being surrounded by one’s own culture, and leaving that for a journey of independence and academic growth.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Ana Muñoz Molina by Anthony Ciano, 18 April 2023, R-1012, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29352
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Culture; Identity; Migratory Experience; University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Estudiantes
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Ana es una estudiante cubana en UNC Chapel Hill que comparte su experiencia al emigrar a los Estados Unidos y su papel dentro de la comunidad latina tanto en Chapel Hill como en Miami, donde vive con su familia. Ana discute las luchas de su familia para ganar lo suficiente y mantenerse solvente en Cuba, y habla sobre los desafíos que enfrenta para sentirse integrada dentro de la comunidad hispana de la universidad, compuesta en su mayoría por estadounidenses de primera generación cuyas experiencias difieren de las condiciones en las que se crio tanto en Miami como bajo el régimen autoritario cubano. Mientras que Ana es una de las más de un millón de personas que viven en el área de Miami de herencia cubana y por ende sus experiencias pueden ser comunes en el sur de Florida, ella comparte los desafíos de conectarse con su cultura en este ambiente universitario. También brinda consejos para aquellos en situaciones similares: viniendo a los Estados Unidos, rodeándose de su propia cultura y dejándola para un emprender un trayecto de independencia y crecimiento académico.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Ana Muñoz Molina por Anthony Ciano, 18 April 2023, R-1012, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Cultura; Experiencia migratoria; Identidad; Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hil
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
[00:00:00] START OF RECORDING
[00:00:03] Anthony Ciano: Hello, my name is Anthony Ciano and today I am here with Ana Munoz Molina in Dey Hall on UNC Chapel Hill's campus. Today is April 18, 2023. And the time is 3:48 PM. So, to start, Ana, would you be able to share a little bit about yourself and how you came to North Carolina?
[00:00:23] Ana Muñoz Molina: Yes. So, I was born and raised in Cuba until I was eight years old. I come from a family who was very into the medical industry. My Grandpa was a doctor, mom is a nurse, Dad was a pharmacist. And around that age, me and my family decided that we were going to emigrate to the United States. And we actually migrated to Florida, Miami, Florida, where I did my elementary years, my middle school, high school. And at the time that it was time for college, I did community college in Miami for two years, and I decided to transfer to UNC in Chapel Hill.
[00:01:15] AC: And you're a junior this year?
[00:01:16] AMM: Yes. A junior majoring in biology, hopefully going into the pre-dental track.
[00:01:23] AC: Very cool. Um, so you said you were from Cuba, and you moved to the US when you were eight. So where- like where in Cuba are you from?
[00:01:29] AMM: So, I was born in Camagüey, Cuba. There, we lived with my grandparents, in a house around like four or five bedrooms in a very tight-knit community, and neighborhood, everyone knew each other. My family was extremely close. My cousins lived around, just a block away. So, we were very close. I've lived with my grandparents my whole life as far as my parents, my sister. But yeah, in Camagüey, Cuba.
[00:02:08] AC: Very cool. So, you moved when you were eight. You said that you studied here, you went to community college in Miami, and then now you came to UNC. So, I guess what I was wondering is what were some of the reasons why your family emigrated to the United States and how did the Cuban laws or policies impact your family's decision to come to the US?
[0002:34] AMM: Overall, I would say it was because of better opportunities. How I had mentioned before, my family was very into the medical fields and they did their years studying for this specific job or profession for them later to not be able to help anyone out due to a lack of materials or hospitals or clinics. Although they studied, they would not be provided economically to maintain the family. So, for example, my mother, although she was a nurse, who worked seven days a week, alongside my father, who was a pharmacist, they still had to go out in the streets of Cuba have of Camagüey and sell treats that they would make just to provide for our family when that shouldn't be, that's not ideal. So, it was essentially, I would say that they wanted to provide me and my sister with better opportunities, that is, professionally and future to have to be able to provide for their family better. And regarding the policies. I would say that after the dictatorship of Fidel Castro, everything went downhill, there was no food to be found. Professionals were not being paid enough to provide for their families. And so that's when my family decided that it was reason enough to emigrate to the United States.
[00:04:15] AC: Okay, that makes sense. So, I know that, like Fidel came into power in like the middle, like middle of the 20th century, and a lot of people left, like in those coming years after that. So, you've said that your family moved here when you were eight and you're 21 now?
[00:04:36] AMM: 20.
[00:04:36] AC: You're 20, so I guess why did your family like only decide to leave like 12 years ago? Why didn't your family come sooner? Like I know, like a lot of other Cuban people did.
[00:04:48] AMM: Yes, So there's various reasons. For example, when Fidel Castro first became president, I remember my grandma telling me the stories that she was extremely happy. That all his speeches seemed like they all made sense and that they were going to help the people of Cuba. Her and her family went on the streets to celebrate alongside all Cuban families. And so, it really took a turn when it wasn't going as planned. And when there was shortages of food, of material, of utilities, and that's when they really started thinking about what is happening, and what will happen in the future if it's gonna get better or worse. So, from there, I specifically remember my family getting together and at the time, I was only eight. So, I was extremely confused as to what was actually happening. And so, I remember them getting together and just discussing what they should do, if they change their whole life around, if they should migrate to a whole new country where the language is not known, where they barely know anyone, to provide a better future for our family. And so I do feel like the timing was the correct one, as things did get worse in Cuba, as well as it was good timing since my aunt at the time who lived in the United States, and a US citizen, managed to sort of sponsor us, where we would enter the United States with residency, almost, I would say, like six months into living here. So, we were provided with various help, financially, when we got to the United States. As well as my parents were given certain jobs, English classes. So, I do feel like my family picked the right time, knowing where things were sort of going to go futuristic in Cuba in the island, as well as, when was the right time for us to get here, knowing that we were gonna be helped by the government, the US government.
[00:07:13] AC: Were your parents able to like work in the same sort of jobs that they did, like in Cuba?
[00:07:19] AMM: So, definitely not when they got here. It's very, very difficult, especially the language barrier, kept them from doing this right away. But for example, my mother started as a medical assistant, she worked her way up, and studied for the nursing boards. And eventually, in two to three years, I want to say, did manage to get her nursing license, in the United States. So currently, she is working as a nurse and is very happy with her job. However, my father, on the other hand, who was a pharmacist in Cuba, did not think that it was the right time, or the right choice to do all that studying, and decided that he was going to work various jobs. Right now, he does still work in the medical field. But he's more towards insurance and clinics, and that sort of industry instead of pharmaceutical.
[00:08:21] AC: So, I know that you talked about like, the economic challenges that your family faced while living in Cuba. Do you think that like the embargo, or like “el bloqueo” has impacted? I guess, like, has that do you think had an impact on like, the Cuban economy?
[00:08:39] AMM: So, um, when I was in Cuba, just to share a small story, I was very confused. I lived a good- I had a good childhood. Just because my parents, my family overall, made a really- hid it really well that the island wasn't doing well, economically. So, I would always have food on a plate. I would always have toys to play with. But little did I know that my family, my parents specifically, would stop eating so I could. Or that my family, my parents had to work an extra shift for that one toy. So as an eight-year-old, I was really confused when we made the move. And about the embargo, I would now, knowing more about the situation in Cuba and being more active about being an immigrant and seeing and facing what's currently happening with Cubans right now, I would say it's hard. Because yes, I understand the embargo but at the same time those people in Cuba, it's hard to really, how do I say this, like it's hard to see what they live day by day because there's nothing. So sometimes the only thing that they could get, the only sort of food that they could obtain, is from family that they have over at the United States. So, let's say that that is cut off, I will not know how it would feel to go hungry at night for children to not have food, and so on.
[00:0:19] AC: So, well, thank you for sharing that. Besides like, the lack of economic opportunities that your family experienced while living in Cuba, do you think like, how did the government's oppression, or how did the government of Cuba specifically impact your family? Do you ever experience any- I guess like, does your family have any experience- negative or positive experiences with the government?
[00:10:52] AMM: I don't recall any negative experiences. We never had some sort of business that they took away, or, or any, thankfully, none of us had any tragedy within the family that occurred. But I do feel like as a child, even when I didn't know much, I did experience some trauma. For example, a short story that I want to share is that in Cuba, as a kid, we were always told that you can't say the word "libtertad" out loud, which is freedom in Spanish. Since Cuba does not have rights, you couldn't just be in the streets asking for freedom. You would get- you would have this trauma that you would get taken away from your family arrested, shot at. So, I specifically remember arriving from Cuba in the Miami Airport. And the first thing I asked my mother was, Mom, could I say the word "libertad" here? And my mom just started crying. I was extremely confused as an eight-yearold. I was like, okay. But I do feel like it always gives us some trauma. Yes, the government did give me some trauma, for sure.
[00:12:13] AC: Have you had the opportunity to go back to visit Cuba? Or like do you want to?
[0012:20] AMM: Yes, so I do have basically all my mom's side still in Cuba. Two little cousins, actually. So, I did get the opportunity to visit once. However, it is extremely expensive for us born in Cuba to go and visit it. I would have to get a Cuban passport which is over $500 plus a ticket, which could easily cost you from $400, $300. So, all the expenses just for one trip to Cuba, plus all the money that you have to give your family to help them out, and friends. So, I've only been able to go back once. And I really felt how different it was, I felt sorry, for my family there. I saw how my little cousins would cry, because all they wanted to do is eat a plate of spaghetti when there wasn't any. So yes, I went back, but it was also very emotional. I saw friends that I had gone to school with. And I would explain to them what a mall was, for example, and they were just extremely confused by it because they had- they can't even picture something like that. So yeah, I did have the chance to go back. I would like to go back. However, I would like it even more for my family to come here instead.
[00:13:47] AC: How do you feel when Americans talk about Cuba? Like, I guess, you know, people in the United States have their own opinions about Cuba. Practically everyone here does have an opinion on it. But when you hear people talk about Cuba, saying it's the United States fault, for all the problems that are there, how does that make you feel? Or like what do you think when people like just like blame the United States for the problems?
[00:14:17] AMM: I highly disagree with them. I feel like Cuba's problems is Cuba's president and corrupt governments. The United States has actually, I would say, saved my life, as many other Cubans. It's the States was a place that you know us Cubans who were escaping oppression could come and live our- as you could say, American dreams. And I feel like blaming the United States for what is happening or what's happening is a mistake in my opinion. And if anything, sometimes they did even like help Cubans out, but that's just my opinion. I also feel like people who might be saying things about Cuba who haven't experienced living there or gone there aside the, the whole traveling just to see Havana which is the Capitol, should not be stating their opinion because they don't know what a life to life is for looking for food when there isn't any or providing for a family that they don't have over there.
[00:15:35] AC: Yeah, okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Do you feel like, I guess when you came, like, in North Carolina, when you tell people that you're Cuban, what do they think? Like? I mean, like, obviously, Miami, there are a lot of Cuban people. But in Chapel Hill, maybe not so much. So, you introduce yourself, you say, "Hi, I'm Ana. I'm from Cuba." What do people say?
[00:16:00] AMM: Yes, it's very, it's very cool. I would say like, it's nice to feel like they want to know more about you, like why you moved. They want to know your story, which I feel heard. Like, I really enjoy when I present myself as Cuban that I was born in Cuba and raised in Cuba, and they want to know more. I think it's very exciting. I really enjoy it. I really do. I you know, tell them I share a little bit about myself. Sometimes they're--. They don't know much about the government and what's happening. So, I like to share a little bit with them about the current situation. I feel like knowledge is always a good thing. And yeah, I really enjoy it. I enjoy when people ask me, oh, why did you migrate? Oh, that's very nice how's Cuba, like and even like to share a bit of knowledge with them.
[00:16:54] AC: Do you feel like your experiences- I actually, before I ask you this question? What like, what label? Do you like to use for yourself? When you're referred to? Like you being someone of Latin American descent? Like, do you say, do you tell people that you're Hispanic? Do you say that you're like Latina? Do you just say you're Cuban? Like, what?
[00:17:16] AMM: I typically go with Cuban just to be more specific. If not I, yeah, I use either Latina or Hispanic. I haven't I've never been really much into, "oh what am I." Or if you know, someone refers me to something that I might not be I'm not the type to really get offended, if not, maybe correct them, and share a little bit about myself with them so they understand better. But I mostly would say Cuban. For sure. Just because I like to get specific.
[00:17:50] AC: Yeah, that makes sense. So, I guess like, like speaking more broadly, do you feel like your experiences as an immigrant mirror the experiences of other Latinos in North Carolina?
[00:18:06] AMM: I feel like every immigrant or Latino is different just because everyone sort of has their own stories, their own immigrant story, their own personal struggles. Many people, for example, might have come from their home country, on a plane, or on a ship, or anything along those sorts. So, everyone has or even maybe have different reasons. But I do feel like we're sort of like a community and somehow share the same experiences, like we could understand each other more, just because we relate to other people's stories. You know, at the end of the day, I feel like most of us emigrate for a better future or to escape dictatorship. And that passion for a country or our different cultures sort of like come together and we sort of know what we're feeling emotionally and physically about what's going on back home. So yes, I do feel like we're all different, and we have different experiences. But I do at the end of the day feel like my story is very relatable to other immigrants here, or Latinos in North Carolina.
[00:19:27] AC: So, like, obviously, Miami, a lot of the people that live there are Cuban or Venezuelan or Nicaraguan, and I guess they have similar situations back in their home countries, while a lot of the immigrants who come to North Carolina are from Central America, and maybe they come due to, I guess, more economic reasons rather than political. Do you feel like you've noted that difference like, do you feel like it's harder to connect with, with Latinos here versus in Miami, when they've really like, you know, a lot of them have even come from the same country that you have? What do you think about that?
[00:20:13] AMM: I do, I really do. For example, Miami, there's a really, really big percentage of Cubans, where you just spot them in the street. And you know, they're Cuba. You might even actually know them. So, it's very funny. You in Miami, you're just another Cuban or another, Nicaraguan, or Venezuelan. It is very different, Miami, immigrants, I guess, to North Carolina. And I do feel some sort of, you know, besides our differences, some sort of, how could I say this, connection as well. Just because most immigrants, I'd like to say from Miami, have recently moved from Miami, whereas immigrants, I guess, from North Carolina, are- their parents are immigrants not really themselves. So yes, they like to share their culture proudly, and so on. But they lived it through their parents and their parents' struggles. Whereas I feel like Miami, since it's currently happening right here right now, it's very sudden, and everyone knows that it's more impacting since you just moved from another country. That also could be however, because Chapel Hill, I feel like it's very university town, location. So, you're gonna see students from a lot of places, from different backgrounds, whose parents might have migrated instead of them. Whereas Miami is a really, really big city with a lot, a lot of Latin Americans, Latins. So, I do feel it's impacted by location, as well as heritage. Yeah.
[00:22:27] AC: Would you say that the transition from living in Cuba to Miami was challenging, or very different?
[00:22:35] AMM: Yes, definitely. So, I was- so I was eight, right in Cuba, and sort of to get, like, life, I guess, figure it out, my father left first to the United States. Six months prior to when me my mom and my sister moved. And I was extremely confused. One day, my dad was gone and I was like, really confused by the situation. My family always tried to protect, like, protect me from the scenario. So, I wasn't told much. I was told that I was gonna see him very soon, that he's helping us out. But again, really, really confused. I was just going to school one day, came back and he wasn't there. I did, however, of course get to say goodbye. But it was just a really confusing situation for an eight-year-old. When we got here, that my dad was all settled, we moved in with my aunt and uncle who thankfully accepted us into their home with open arms. I started school, and I started school in the late like late third grade, I like to say, where everyone was taken already. The FCAT I think I believe there was called, I was an ESOL. I was the smallest tiniest little girl on ESOL. And I didn't know anything. All I knew is that whenever a teacher would ask me a question, or there was some sort of quiz or exam, I would cry. The only thing I would do was cry, just because of how frustrated I was to not know the language, the culture, what was happening around me. It was a very difficult time I would come home with panic attacks, explaining to my mom that I did not want to do it anymore. I wanted to go back. That where was I? I really did not like it at first. It was a really hard transition for a kid. And thankfully, that opinion has changed now. I would- I love it here. I loved Miami and the States. But yeah, at the beginning, it was definitely rough. And I feel like it's a story that many people we'll share at first having not knowing the culture or anyone or the language. But you get used to it, you get used to it one day at a time. I remember, I learned English one day to from one day to another, I don't even remember how. I remember though, how my mom would do little flashcards with pictures and names of cat for example, or dog. And little by little I learned, got used to it. School was better. Make some friends, which always helps and, yeah.
[00:25:37] AC: Very cool. So, I'd like to know a little bit, a little bit more about how you moved here. So, you said that you came on a plane and that your aunt and uncle sponsored you? Do you know how that process works? I guess like how did you like how were you able to come here? Because I know a lot of other immigrants, unfortunately, don't have that same experience.
[00:25:59] AMM: Yes. So, the reason why my uncle and aunt were here in the first place and could sponsor me was because back then in Cuba, they had like some I would say, raffle where citizens of Cuba would get randomly selected for residency in the United States. And thankfully, they both were really nice. So, they took their chance. I'm not sure what year this was. It might have even been before Fidel Castro came to govern. So, they left and they had made a life here, have been here for over 30, 40 years, I would like to say now. And when things got bad, since they were US citizens, they managed to sort of sponsor me on my family. And that process, I believe, is still going on today, but it's paused. Back then, when they sponsored us, it was a faster process, and was working more like continuous. And I believe it only took a couple of months, right after they put in like the request. And my father came six months after me, my family. I said, my mom and my sister came. And when we became US citizens, we sponsored our grandparents and our grandparents' parents sponsored other family that we have from our dad's side. And that's sort of how my family grew here in the United States. Basically, sponsor after sponsor, and I believe that once we arrived here, we did have some help from the government. So that was really beneficial for me and my family. Yeah.
[00:27:55] AC: So, it seems that you have a pretty big family. Now, like in the US, do you feel like- how would you compare Miami to Chapel Hill? Do you feel like it's hard to connect with, like your, like "Cubanidad" or "Latinidad" like living in Chapel Hill?
[00:28:16] AMM: Yes, um, I really, really had been having a hard time. Thankfully, though, I did transfer here with Miami students who were also from Cuba, Nicaragua. And I already knew some Cubans here, because we all went to the same community college in Miami. So that was really extremely helpful at the beginning, for sure. However, I don't feel like I have found like the right group of people at Chapel Hill. I do believe like, like, our community has a certain like sense of humor that maybe others here might not get along with or our personality. And so that's been extremely hard just to find my sort of people. But it is helpful that I do have some Cubans here from Miami, who have always like, kept the door open for whatever I needed, or help. And yeah,
[00:29:22] AC: Have you been able to, like meet people or connect with other people who aren't of like Cuban origin? Or do you feel like you're mostly like around other people from Miami?
[00:29:34] AMM: So, I did try, I think it was my first semester, very first or second week that this certain organization did like a meeting and it was mostly Hispanics so I was like, "Oh this is very, very nice. I'm gonna go and I'm gonna meet people. However. I was the only Cuban. And most people if not all, spoke Spanish- spoke sorry, English. I didn't feel very, I'm not gonna say welcomed, but very, I don't know, not really accepted just because most of them already had their community from their certain country, I believe it was Mexico. So, after that, I was like, "okay, I gave it a try." But I sort of always kept going back to the Cuban people that I knew here. Which I feel like I do connect more with.
[00:30:42] AC: Um, what advice? Like, I mean, I guess, like, I this can be a two-part question. So what advice would you give? Like, first off, what advice would you give somebody from Cuba coming to the United States?
[00:30:59] AMM: Okay, um, it depends. Where would they be arriving? What states like-
[00:31:05] AC: Let's say they go to Miami.
[00:31:06] AMM: Okay! I feel like Miami is a very safe place to arrive at, just because you basically speak more Spanish than English on your day-to-day. And you will know many people, it's very unlikely that you won't just because so many people have migrated. So, I do feel like you're gonna get adjusted well, you're gonna feel welcome into a community, you're gonna have people loving you every step of the way and helping you out. So, I do feel like Miami is the right place. Or at least one of them, where a Cuban could come with not knowing any language, not being as, I guess, well educated, and so on to really feel like they could make something of themselves and a future that is with the right people surrounding them.
[00:32:05] AC: Now, what advice would you give someone coming from like, Miami? Like, look, so you, you really grew up in Miami after you moved to Cuba or after you moved from Cuba. And now you're going to this new state with a new sort of demography, new people. If you were to- if someone were to ask you, what advice would you give to that person?
[00:32:30] AMM: I would admire them. I feel like one of the reasons why I decided to make the move was because I wanted a change. I was so used to my day-to-day Miami. I felt like I wasn't unique enough, just because everyone around me was Cuban, and was pursuing the same dream. I wanted to change sort of myself, like put myself not in like such a comfort zone, I wanted to get out of that comfort zone that Miami was for me. And that's essentially why I made that big change of moving from Miami to North Carolina to study. The environment was very different. I like the weather. And I was like, I think if I don't do it, now, I'm not gonna do it. And the advice that I would give that person besides telling them that they're brave, because it is a very hard decision. I feel like Hispanics are very tight with their families. And so that big move from your family is extremely emotionally draining at first. But besides telling them that they're brave, basically telling them as well that to get out there to meet people in class, talk to them. Go to club meetings, even if they're not your thing at first. If you keep trying and keep trying, I'm sure you will find the right one with the right community of people where you will feel welcome, accepted, where you could express your Cuban-ness and Hispanic descent and even share with people more about your country and why you moved. So, I think that would be my main advice.
[00:34:15] AC: Do you feel like you've grown from the transition from Miami to North Carolina?
[00:34:21] AMM: Yes, definitely. Since I've said before my family, my Cuban family, is very tightly sort of together. We do everything together. If there's a party happening, we're all going. If- we celebrate all holidays together, we eat dinner together all at one table every day at a certain time. So, I've definitely feel like I've become more independent for sure. I- since in Miami I live with both my grandma's and our mom, for example that love to cook. When my mom is stressed, the only thing that will relax her is cooking. So I- before coming here, I didn't know how to fry an egg, literally. So definitely a lot of things have changed. I feel like I've become more independent as a student, as well as a woman growing up in my 20s. So, I do feel like that's another reason why I made the move, I wanted to grow. And I felt like if I stayed at my house in Miami, with my very close family- that I feel like if I would have stayed in Miami that I would not have had the chance to experience American culture in a specific way as the one that I do in UNC. So, I do feel like this change, this move between states, especially as a student like me, was not only practical, but necessary.
[00:36:01] AC: Do you ever want to go back to Miami, like after you graduate? Do you see yourself there and like around your culture in the future?
[00:36:09] AMM: So, since I've mentioned that, I am planning to go into dental school, I don't mind where. I'm very open to moving around for dental school. However, I do feel like I've talked with friends and family about this, that Miami is home, and where I am just more comfortable with. So, I do feel like in the long run, where I want to create a family and experience life with in would be Miami at the end of the day. Yeah.
[00:36:49] AC: If you were to have stayed- So obviously, like Miami and Cuba are different in many different ways. But you know, do you feel like, if you were to have stayed in Cuba, how would your life be different now?
[00:37:05] AMM: I feel like it would have been extremely different. Not only professionally, but me as a person, I feel like I would not have been able to pursue my passion of becoming a dentist just because I saw how my parents struggled, my grandpa, my whole family essentially struggled as medical professionals. So, I do feel like I would have had to let go of that dream of becoming a dental professional. And instead, I would have probably joined the tourist industry, which pays people more than being a medical professional, it sounds crazy, but it's very realistic. Also, I feel like I would have a very unstable and stressful life, just because you don't know when your next plate of food- where it's going to come from or if you're going to find it. And that's just more stress than a human being with rights or in a country that the government should take care of, if not providing you with the essentials for you to make a living. So I- in overall I feel like one, I would have to stop pursuing my dream professionally. And two, it would just be a very stressful life. I would not be living to enjoy it. On top of that, there's no traveling. The only traveling you could do is in Cuba. So, there will be no going to Europe, going to the States, going all around the world if you wanted to just to visit. one because there's no money, and the other because Cuba doesn't allow you to.
[00:38:49] AC: So, you talk about the struggles that you feel like you would face if you had stayed in Cuba. What is life like for your family now in Cuba, like what did they do to manage?
[00:39:00] AMM: Yes, currently, the family that I have most in Cuba is my Mom's side. And that includes mostly her brother, so my uncle, his wife, and my two little cousins that are, I would say around the age of like- one is six years old and the other one is like 11. And I see their struggles, and I see how horrific it is. So, my mom thankfully provides them with food when it's needed. Because they- although my uncle works-, he's a mechanic and his wife, I believe, does something in the tourist industry, they can't provide for themselves alone. They can't pay for their housing and they can't pay for their expenses from what they make. And so, my family, especially my mother, sends them food, monthly, as well as utilities, anything that they aren't able to find in Cuba, my mom sends them- sends it to them. However, it's way more expensive. It takes time to get there, it's not assured that they will get it. So, it's very unstable, an unstable sad life. My uncle is currently battling depression just because he sees that most of his friends and most of his family are gone. And they are waiting for the same thing that was done to me, my mom, my father, and my sister, so that sponsorship from us. However, since it's from brother to- from sister to brother, it does take longer. And since that program is currently on pause, it's been, I believe, like eight years and no response. So definitely a difficult time. However, it does make it a little easier that they have our help from the States. But it still doesn't make it okay, that they're struggling this much just to provide for their family and live on a day-to-day basis[00:41:16] AC: Well, we are almost out of time, but I just wanted to ask you what else- like what do you want people to know about Cuba? About you being from Cuba?
[00:41:26] AMM: Yes, I want the people to know, even within this interview that even though there's a lot of struggles with the economy, with the government, dictatorship, and the people suffering, that we are a very rich culture island and that our identity is known. That the people are just very good people that care about each other. I remember how back when I was over there living, if any neighbor needed something, they will stop what they're doing just to help that other person. So, we are a very likeable people. Love to just talk, be communicative and help out. And I feel like if it's something that you should take from this interview, is to learn a little bit more about Cuba and how you could help and just know that its culture really is something that no other island could have. And yeah.
[00:42:30] AC: Well, thank you very much, Ana, for sharing your story with me today. And good luck with the rest of the semester.
[00:42:36] AMM: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:42:39] END OF INTERVIEW
Transcribed by: Anthony Ciano
01/20/2023
Es: Transcripción
[00:00:00] START OF RECORDING
[00:00:03] Anthony Ciano: Hello, my name is Anthony Ciano and today I am here with Ana Munoz Molina in Dey Hall on UNC Chapel Hill's campus. Today is April 18, 2023. And the time is 3:48 PM. So, to start, Ana, would you be able to share a little bit about yourself and how you came to North Carolina?
[00:00:23] Ana Muñoz Molina: Yes. So, I was born and raised in Cuba until I was eight years old. I come from a family who was very into the medical industry. My Grandpa was a doctor, mom is a nurse, Dad was a pharmacist. And around that age, me and my family decided that we were going to emigrate to the United States. And we actually migrated to Florida, Miami, Florida, where I did my elementary years, my middle school, high school. And at the time that it was time for college, I did community college in Miami for two years, and I decided to transfer to UNC in Chapel Hill.
[00:01:15] AC: And you're a junior this year?
[00:01:16] AMM: Yes. A junior majoring in biology, hopefully going into the pre-dental track.
[00:01:23] AC: Very cool. Um, so you said you were from Cuba, and you moved to the US when you were eight. So where- like where in Cuba are you from?
[00:01:29] AMM: So, I was born in Camagüey, Cuba. There, we lived with my grandparents, in a house around like four or five bedrooms in a very tight-knit community, and neighborhood, everyone knew each other. My family was extremely close. My cousins lived around, just a block away. So, we were very close. I've lived with my grandparents my whole life as far as my parents, my sister. But yeah, in Camagüey, Cuba.
[00:02:08] AC: Very cool. So, you moved when you were eight. You said that you studied here, you went to community college in Miami, and then now you came to UNC. So, I guess what I was wondering is what were some of the reasons why your family emigrated to the United States and how did the Cuban laws or policies impact your family's decision to come to the US?
[0002:34] AMM: Overall, I would say it was because of better opportunities. How I had mentioned before, my family was very into the medical fields and they did their years studying for this specific job or profession for them later to not be able to help anyone out due to a lack of materials or hospitals or clinics. Although they studied, they would not be provided economically to maintain the family. So, for example, my mother, although she was a nurse, who worked seven days a week, alongside my father, who was a pharmacist, they still had to go out in the streets of Cuba have of Camagüey and sell treats that they would make just to provide for our family when that shouldn't be, that's not ideal. So, it was essentially, I would say that they wanted to provide me and my sister with better opportunities, that is, professionally and future to have to be able to provide for their family better. And regarding the policies. I would say that after the dictatorship of Fidel Castro, everything went downhill, there was no food to be found. Professionals were not being paid enough to provide for their families. And so that's when my family decided that it was reason enough to emigrate to the United States.
[00:04:15] AC: Okay, that makes sense. So, I know that, like Fidel came into power in like the middle, like middle of the 20th century, and a lot of people left, like in those coming years after that. So, you've said that your family moved here when you were eight and you're 21 now?
[00:04:36] AMM: 20.
[00:04:36] AC: You're 20, so I guess why did your family like only decide to leave like 12 years ago? Why didn't your family come sooner? Like I know, like a lot of other Cuban people did.
[00:04:48] AMM: Yes, So there's various reasons. For example, when Fidel Castro first became president, I remember my grandma telling me the stories that she was extremely happy. That all his speeches seemed like they all made sense and that they were going to help the people of Cuba. Her and her family went on the streets to celebrate alongside all Cuban families. And so, it really took a turn when it wasn't going as planned. And when there was shortages of food, of material, of utilities, and that's when they really started thinking about what is happening, and what will happen in the future if it's gonna get better or worse. So, from there, I specifically remember my family getting together and at the time, I was only eight. So, I was extremely confused as to what was actually happening. And so, I remember them getting together and just discussing what they should do, if they change their whole life around, if they should migrate to a whole new country where the language is not known, where they barely know anyone, to provide a better future for our family. And so I do feel like the timing was the correct one, as things did get worse in Cuba, as well as it was good timing since my aunt at the time who lived in the United States, and a US citizen, managed to sort of sponsor us, where we would enter the United States with residency, almost, I would say, like six months into living here. So, we were provided with various help, financially, when we got to the United States. As well as my parents were given certain jobs, English classes. So, I do feel like my family picked the right time, knowing where things were sort of going to go futuristic in Cuba in the island, as well as, when was the right time for us to get here, knowing that we were gonna be helped by the government, the US government.
[00:07:13] AC: Were your parents able to like work in the same sort of jobs that they did, like in Cuba?
[00:07:19] AMM: So, definitely not when they got here. It's very, very difficult, especially the language barrier, kept them from doing this right away. But for example, my mother started as a medical assistant, she worked her way up, and studied for the nursing boards. And eventually, in two to three years, I want to say, did manage to get her nursing license, in the United States. So currently, she is working as a nurse and is very happy with her job. However, my father, on the other hand, who was a pharmacist in Cuba, did not think that it was the right time, or the right choice to do all that studying, and decided that he was going to work various jobs. Right now, he does still work in the medical field. But he's more towards insurance and clinics, and that sort of industry instead of pharmaceutical.
[00:08:21] AC: So, I know that you talked about like, the economic challenges that your family faced while living in Cuba. Do you think that like the embargo, or like “el bloqueo” has impacted? I guess, like, has that do you think had an impact on like, the Cuban economy?
[00:08:39] AMM: So, um, when I was in Cuba, just to share a small story, I was very confused. I lived a good- I had a good childhood. Just because my parents, my family overall, made a really- hid it really well that the island wasn't doing well, economically. So, I would always have food on a plate. I would always have toys to play with. But little did I know that my family, my parents specifically, would stop eating so I could. Or that my family, my parents had to work an extra shift for that one toy. So as an eight-year-old, I was really confused when we made the move. And about the embargo, I would now, knowing more about the situation in Cuba and being more active about being an immigrant and seeing and facing what's currently happening with Cubans right now, I would say it's hard. Because yes, I understand the embargo but at the same time those people in Cuba, it's hard to really, how do I say this, like it's hard to see what they live day by day because there's nothing. So sometimes the only thing that they could get, the only sort of food that they could obtain, is from family that they have over at the United States. So, let's say that that is cut off, I will not know how it would feel to go hungry at night for children to not have food, and so on.
[00:0:19] AC: So, well, thank you for sharing that. Besides like, the lack of economic opportunities that your family experienced while living in Cuba, do you think like, how did the government's oppression, or how did the government of Cuba specifically impact your family? Do you ever experience any- I guess like, does your family have any experience- negative or positive experiences with the government?
[00:10:52] AMM: I don't recall any negative experiences. We never had some sort of business that they took away, or, or any, thankfully, none of us had any tragedy within the family that occurred. But I do feel like as a child, even when I didn't know much, I did experience some trauma. For example, a short story that I want to share is that in Cuba, as a kid, we were always told that you can't say the word "libtertad" out loud, which is freedom in Spanish. Since Cuba does not have rights, you couldn't just be in the streets asking for freedom. You would get- you would have this trauma that you would get taken away from your family arrested, shot at. So, I specifically remember arriving from Cuba in the Miami Airport. And the first thing I asked my mother was, Mom, could I say the word "libertad" here? And my mom just started crying. I was extremely confused as an eight-yearold. I was like, okay. But I do feel like it always gives us some trauma. Yes, the government did give me some trauma, for sure.
[00:12:13] AC: Have you had the opportunity to go back to visit Cuba? Or like do you want to?
[0012:20] AMM: Yes, so I do have basically all my mom's side still in Cuba. Two little cousins, actually. So, I did get the opportunity to visit once. However, it is extremely expensive for us born in Cuba to go and visit it. I would have to get a Cuban passport which is over $500 plus a ticket, which could easily cost you from $400, $300. So, all the expenses just for one trip to Cuba, plus all the money that you have to give your family to help them out, and friends. So, I've only been able to go back once. And I really felt how different it was, I felt sorry, for my family there. I saw how my little cousins would cry, because all they wanted to do is eat a plate of spaghetti when there wasn't any. So yes, I went back, but it was also very emotional. I saw friends that I had gone to school with. And I would explain to them what a mall was, for example, and they were just extremely confused by it because they had- they can't even picture something like that. So yeah, I did have the chance to go back. I would like to go back. However, I would like it even more for my family to come here instead.
[00:13:47] AC: How do you feel when Americans talk about Cuba? Like, I guess, you know, people in the United States have their own opinions about Cuba. Practically everyone here does have an opinion on it. But when you hear people talk about Cuba, saying it's the United States fault, for all the problems that are there, how does that make you feel? Or like what do you think when people like just like blame the United States for the problems?
[00:14:17] AMM: I highly disagree with them. I feel like Cuba's problems is Cuba's president and corrupt governments. The United States has actually, I would say, saved my life, as many other Cubans. It's the States was a place that you know us Cubans who were escaping oppression could come and live our- as you could say, American dreams. And I feel like blaming the United States for what is happening or what's happening is a mistake in my opinion. And if anything, sometimes they did even like help Cubans out, but that's just my opinion. I also feel like people who might be saying things about Cuba who haven't experienced living there or gone there aside the, the whole traveling just to see Havana which is the Capitol, should not be stating their opinion because they don't know what a life to life is for looking for food when there isn't any or providing for a family that they don't have over there.
[00:15:35] AC: Yeah, okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Do you feel like, I guess when you came, like, in North Carolina, when you tell people that you're Cuban, what do they think? Like? I mean, like, obviously, Miami, there are a lot of Cuban people. But in Chapel Hill, maybe not so much. So, you introduce yourself, you say, "Hi, I'm Ana. I'm from Cuba." What do people say?
[00:16:00] AMM: Yes, it's very, it's very cool. I would say like, it's nice to feel like they want to know more about you, like why you moved. They want to know your story, which I feel heard. Like, I really enjoy when I present myself as Cuban that I was born in Cuba and raised in Cuba, and they want to know more. I think it's very exciting. I really enjoy it. I really do. I you know, tell them I share a little bit about myself. Sometimes they're--. They don't know much about the government and what's happening. So, I like to share a little bit with them about the current situation. I feel like knowledge is always a good thing. And yeah, I really enjoy it. I enjoy when people ask me, oh, why did you migrate? Oh, that's very nice how's Cuba, like and even like to share a bit of knowledge with them.
[00:16:54] AC: Do you feel like your experiences- I actually, before I ask you this question? What like, what label? Do you like to use for yourself? When you're referred to? Like you being someone of Latin American descent? Like, do you say, do you tell people that you're Hispanic? Do you say that you're like Latina? Do you just say you're Cuban? Like, what?
[00:17:16] AMM: I typically go with Cuban just to be more specific. If not I, yeah, I use either Latina or Hispanic. I haven't I've never been really much into, "oh what am I." Or if you know, someone refers me to something that I might not be I'm not the type to really get offended, if not, maybe correct them, and share a little bit about myself with them so they understand better. But I mostly would say Cuban. For sure. Just because I like to get specific.
[00:17:50] AC: Yeah, that makes sense. So, I guess like, like speaking more broadly, do you feel like your experiences as an immigrant mirror the experiences of other Latinos in North Carolina?
[00:18:06] AMM: I feel like every immigrant or Latino is different just because everyone sort of has their own stories, their own immigrant story, their own personal struggles. Many people, for example, might have come from their home country, on a plane, or on a ship, or anything along those sorts. So, everyone has or even maybe have different reasons. But I do feel like we're sort of like a community and somehow share the same experiences, like we could understand each other more, just because we relate to other people's stories. You know, at the end of the day, I feel like most of us emigrate for a better future or to escape dictatorship. And that passion for a country or our different cultures sort of like come together and we sort of know what we're feeling emotionally and physically about what's going on back home. So yes, I do feel like we're all different, and we have different experiences. But I do at the end of the day feel like my story is very relatable to other immigrants here, or Latinos in North Carolina.
[00:19:27] AC: So, like, obviously, Miami, a lot of the people that live there are Cuban or Venezuelan or Nicaraguan, and I guess they have similar situations back in their home countries, while a lot of the immigrants who come to North Carolina are from Central America, and maybe they come due to, I guess, more economic reasons rather than political. Do you feel like you've noted that difference like, do you feel like it's harder to connect with, with Latinos here versus in Miami, when they've really like, you know, a lot of them have even come from the same country that you have? What do you think about that?
[00:20:13] AMM: I do, I really do. For example, Miami, there's a really, really big percentage of Cubans, where you just spot them in the street. And you know, they're Cuba. You might even actually know them. So, it's very funny. You in Miami, you're just another Cuban or another, Nicaraguan, or Venezuelan. It is very different, Miami, immigrants, I guess, to North Carolina. And I do feel some sort of, you know, besides our differences, some sort of, how could I say this, connection as well. Just because most immigrants, I'd like to say from Miami, have recently moved from Miami, whereas immigrants, I guess, from North Carolina, are- their parents are immigrants not really themselves. So yes, they like to share their culture proudly, and so on. But they lived it through their parents and their parents' struggles. Whereas I feel like Miami, since it's currently happening right here right now, it's very sudden, and everyone knows that it's more impacting since you just moved from another country. That also could be however, because Chapel Hill, I feel like it's very university town, location. So, you're gonna see students from a lot of places, from different backgrounds, whose parents might have migrated instead of them. Whereas Miami is a really, really big city with a lot, a lot of Latin Americans, Latins. So, I do feel it's impacted by location, as well as heritage. Yeah.
[00:22:27] AC: Would you say that the transition from living in Cuba to Miami was challenging, or very different?
[00:22:35] AMM: Yes, definitely. So, I was- so I was eight, right in Cuba, and sort of to get, like, life, I guess, figure it out, my father left first to the United States. Six months prior to when me my mom and my sister moved. And I was extremely confused. One day, my dad was gone and I was like, really confused by the situation. My family always tried to protect, like, protect me from the scenario. So, I wasn't told much. I was told that I was gonna see him very soon, that he's helping us out. But again, really, really confused. I was just going to school one day, came back and he wasn't there. I did, however, of course get to say goodbye. But it was just a really confusing situation for an eight-year-old. When we got here, that my dad was all settled, we moved in with my aunt and uncle who thankfully accepted us into their home with open arms. I started school, and I started school in the late like late third grade, I like to say, where everyone was taken already. The FCAT I think I believe there was called, I was an ESOL. I was the smallest tiniest little girl on ESOL. And I didn't know anything. All I knew is that whenever a teacher would ask me a question, or there was some sort of quiz or exam, I would cry. The only thing I would do was cry, just because of how frustrated I was to not know the language, the culture, what was happening around me. It was a very difficult time I would come home with panic attacks, explaining to my mom that I did not want to do it anymore. I wanted to go back. That where was I? I really did not like it at first. It was a really hard transition for a kid. And thankfully, that opinion has changed now. I would- I love it here. I loved Miami and the States. But yeah, at the beginning, it was definitely rough. And I feel like it's a story that many people we'll share at first having not knowing the culture or anyone or the language. But you get used to it, you get used to it one day at a time. I remember, I learned English one day to from one day to another, I don't even remember how. I remember though, how my mom would do little flashcards with pictures and names of cat for example, or dog. And little by little I learned, got used to it. School was better. Make some friends, which always helps and, yeah.
[00:25:37] AC: Very cool. So, I'd like to know a little bit, a little bit more about how you moved here. So, you said that you came on a plane and that your aunt and uncle sponsored you? Do you know how that process works? I guess like how did you like how were you able to come here? Because I know a lot of other immigrants, unfortunately, don't have that same experience.
[00:25:59] AMM: Yes. So, the reason why my uncle and aunt were here in the first place and could sponsor me was because back then in Cuba, they had like some I would say, raffle where citizens of Cuba would get randomly selected for residency in the United States. And thankfully, they both were really nice. So, they took their chance. I'm not sure what year this was. It might have even been before Fidel Castro came to govern. So, they left and they had made a life here, have been here for over 30, 40 years, I would like to say now. And when things got bad, since they were US citizens, they managed to sort of sponsor me on my family. And that process, I believe, is still going on today, but it's paused. Back then, when they sponsored us, it was a faster process, and was working more like continuous. And I believe it only took a couple of months, right after they put in like the request. And my father came six months after me, my family. I said, my mom and my sister came. And when we became US citizens, we sponsored our grandparents and our grandparents' parents sponsored other family that we have from our dad's side. And that's sort of how my family grew here in the United States. Basically, sponsor after sponsor, and I believe that once we arrived here, we did have some help from the government. So that was really beneficial for me and my family. Yeah.
[00:27:55] AC: So, it seems that you have a pretty big family. Now, like in the US, do you feel like- how would you compare Miami to Chapel Hill? Do you feel like it's hard to connect with, like your, like "Cubanidad" or "Latinidad" like living in Chapel Hill?
[00:28:16] AMM: Yes, um, I really, really had been having a hard time. Thankfully, though, I did transfer here with Miami students who were also from Cuba, Nicaragua. And I already knew some Cubans here, because we all went to the same community college in Miami. So that was really extremely helpful at the beginning, for sure. However, I don't feel like I have found like the right group of people at Chapel Hill. I do believe like, like, our community has a certain like sense of humor that maybe others here might not get along with or our personality. And so that's been extremely hard just to find my sort of people. But it is helpful that I do have some Cubans here from Miami, who have always like, kept the door open for whatever I needed, or help. And yeah,
[00:29:22] AC: Have you been able to, like meet people or connect with other people who aren't of like Cuban origin? Or do you feel like you're mostly like around other people from Miami?
[00:29:34] AMM: So, I did try, I think it was my first semester, very first or second week that this certain organization did like a meeting and it was mostly Hispanics so I was like, "Oh this is very, very nice. I'm gonna go and I'm gonna meet people. However. I was the only Cuban. And most people if not all, spoke Spanish- spoke sorry, English. I didn't feel very, I'm not gonna say welcomed, but very, I don't know, not really accepted just because most of them already had their community from their certain country, I believe it was Mexico. So, after that, I was like, "okay, I gave it a try." But I sort of always kept going back to the Cuban people that I knew here. Which I feel like I do connect more with.
[00:30:42] AC: Um, what advice? Like, I mean, I guess, like, I this can be a two-part question. So what advice would you give? Like, first off, what advice would you give somebody from Cuba coming to the United States?
[00:30:59] AMM: Okay, um, it depends. Where would they be arriving? What states like-
[00:31:05] AC: Let's say they go to Miami.
[00:31:06] AMM: Okay! I feel like Miami is a very safe place to arrive at, just because you basically speak more Spanish than English on your day-to-day. And you will know many people, it's very unlikely that you won't just because so many people have migrated. So, I do feel like you're gonna get adjusted well, you're gonna feel welcome into a community, you're gonna have people loving you every step of the way and helping you out. So, I do feel like Miami is the right place. Or at least one of them, where a Cuban could come with not knowing any language, not being as, I guess, well educated, and so on to really feel like they could make something of themselves and a future that is with the right people surrounding them.
[00:32:05] AC: Now, what advice would you give someone coming from like, Miami? Like, look, so you, you really grew up in Miami after you moved to Cuba or after you moved from Cuba. And now you're going to this new state with a new sort of demography, new people. If you were to- if someone were to ask you, what advice would you give to that person?
[00:32:30] AMM: I would admire them. I feel like one of the reasons why I decided to make the move was because I wanted a change. I was so used to my day-to-day Miami. I felt like I wasn't unique enough, just because everyone around me was Cuban, and was pursuing the same dream. I wanted to change sort of myself, like put myself not in like such a comfort zone, I wanted to get out of that comfort zone that Miami was for me. And that's essentially why I made that big change of moving from Miami to North Carolina to study. The environment was very different. I like the weather. And I was like, I think if I don't do it, now, I'm not gonna do it. And the advice that I would give that person besides telling them that they're brave, because it is a very hard decision. I feel like Hispanics are very tight with their families. And so that big move from your family is extremely emotionally draining at first. But besides telling them that they're brave, basically telling them as well that to get out there to meet people in class, talk to them. Go to club meetings, even if they're not your thing at first. If you keep trying and keep trying, I'm sure you will find the right one with the right community of people where you will feel welcome, accepted, where you could express your Cuban-ness and Hispanic descent and even share with people more about your country and why you moved. So, I think that would be my main advice.
[00:34:15] AC: Do you feel like you've grown from the transition from Miami to North Carolina?
[00:34:21] AMM: Yes, definitely. Since I've said before my family, my Cuban family, is very tightly sort of together. We do everything together. If there's a party happening, we're all going. If- we celebrate all holidays together, we eat dinner together all at one table every day at a certain time. So, I've definitely feel like I've become more independent for sure. I- since in Miami I live with both my grandma's and our mom, for example that love to cook. When my mom is stressed, the only thing that will relax her is cooking. So I- before coming here, I didn't know how to fry an egg, literally. So definitely a lot of things have changed. I feel like I've become more independent as a student, as well as a woman growing up in my 20s. So, I do feel like that's another reason why I made the move, I wanted to grow. And I felt like if I stayed at my house in Miami, with my very close family- that I feel like if I would have stayed in Miami that I would not have had the chance to experience American culture in a specific way as the one that I do in UNC. So, I do feel like this change, this move between states, especially as a student like me, was not only practical, but necessary.
[00:36:01] AC: Do you ever want to go back to Miami, like after you graduate? Do you see yourself there and like around your culture in the future?
[00:36:09] AMM: So, since I've mentioned that, I am planning to go into dental school, I don't mind where. I'm very open to moving around for dental school. However, I do feel like I've talked with friends and family about this, that Miami is home, and where I am just more comfortable with. So, I do feel like in the long run, where I want to create a family and experience life with in would be Miami at the end of the day. Yeah.
[00:36:49] AC: If you were to have stayed- So obviously, like Miami and Cuba are different in many different ways. But you know, do you feel like, if you were to have stayed in Cuba, how would your life be different now?
[00:37:05] AMM: I feel like it would have been extremely different. Not only professionally, but me as a person, I feel like I would not have been able to pursue my passion of becoming a dentist just because I saw how my parents struggled, my grandpa, my whole family essentially struggled as medical professionals. So, I do feel like I would have had to let go of that dream of becoming a dental professional. And instead, I would have probably joined the tourist industry, which pays people more than being a medical professional, it sounds crazy, but it's very realistic. Also, I feel like I would have a very unstable and stressful life, just because you don't know when your next plate of food- where it's going to come from or if you're going to find it. And that's just more stress than a human being with rights or in a country that the government should take care of, if not providing you with the essentials for you to make a living. So I- in overall I feel like one, I would have to stop pursuing my dream professionally. And two, it would just be a very stressful life. I would not be living to enjoy it. On top of that, there's no traveling. The only traveling you could do is in Cuba. So, there will be no going to Europe, going to the States, going all around the world if you wanted to just to visit. one because there's no money, and the other because Cuba doesn't allow you to.
[00:38:49] AC: So, you talk about the struggles that you feel like you would face if you had stayed in Cuba. What is life like for your family now in Cuba, like what did they do to manage?
[00:39:00] AMM: Yes, currently, the family that I have most in Cuba is my Mom's side. And that includes mostly her brother, so my uncle, his wife, and my two little cousins that are, I would say around the age of like- one is six years old and the other one is like 11. And I see their struggles, and I see how horrific it is. So, my mom thankfully provides them with food when it's needed. Because they- although my uncle works-, he's a mechanic and his wife, I believe, does something in the tourist industry, they can't provide for themselves alone. They can't pay for their housing and they can't pay for their expenses from what they make. And so, my family, especially my mother, sends them food, monthly, as well as utilities, anything that they aren't able to find in Cuba, my mom sends them- sends it to them. However, it's way more expensive. It takes time to get there, it's not assured that they will get it. So, it's very unstable, an unstable sad life. My uncle is currently battling depression just because he sees that most of his friends and most of his family are gone. And they are waiting for the same thing that was done to me, my mom, my father, and my sister, so that sponsorship from us. However, since it's from brother to- from sister to brother, it does take longer. And since that program is currently on pause, it's been, I believe, like eight years and no response. So definitely a difficult time. However, it does make it a little easier that they have our help from the States. But it still doesn't make it okay, that they're struggling this much just to provide for their family and live on a day-to-day basis[00:41:16] AC: Well, we are almost out of time, but I just wanted to ask you what else- like what do you want people to know about Cuba? About you being from Cuba?
[00:41:26] AMM: Yes, I want the people to know, even within this interview that even though there's a lot of struggles with the economy, with the government, dictatorship, and the people suffering, that we are a very rich culture island and that our identity is known. That the people are just very good people that care about each other. I remember how back when I was over there living, if any neighbor needed something, they will stop what they're doing just to help that other person. So, we are a very likeable people. Love to just talk, be communicative and help out. And I feel like if it's something that you should take from this interview, is to learn a little bit more about Cuba and how you could help and just know that its culture really is something that no other island could have. And yeah.
[00:42:30] AC: Well, thank you very much, Ana, for sharing your story with me today. And good luck with the rest of the semester.
[00:42:36] AMM: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:42:39] END OF INTERVIEW
Transcribed by: Anthony Ciano
01/20/2023
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
R-1012 -- Molina, Ana Muñoz.
Description
An account of the resource
Ana Muñoz Molina is a student at UNC Chapel Hill from Cuba who shares her experience emigrating to the United States and her role within the Latino community in Chapel Hill and Miami, where she lives with her family. Ana discusses her family’s struggles to make ends meet in Cuba and discusses the challenges she faces to feel integrated within the university’s Hispanic community, made up mostly of first-generation Americans whose experiences differ from the conditions in which she was brought up both in Miami and under the Cuban authoritarian regime. While Ana is one of over a million people of Cuban heritage living in the Miami area and her experiences may be commonplace in south Florida, Ana shares the challenges of connecting to her culture in a university environment. She also provides advice for those in similar situations: coming to the United States, being surrounded by one’s own culture, and leaving that for a journey of independence and academic growth.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-04-18
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29352">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
R1012_Audio.mp3
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/298ca38d2763a06b517a900848960d16.mp3
3e706a8db25c484f6d269afb52471448
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/b5bf15eab8a7e0044521de1d998d98bb.pdf
6110c9bd3c6f983f5da42b664f16b609
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-1011
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
Fecha
2023-04-21
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
García Rico, Yazmin.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Health services administrators
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1989
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Orizaba -- Veracruz -- México
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Graham -- Alamance County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-97.1046371459961 18.84562110900879),1989,1;POINT(-79.40039825439453 36.06760025024414),2002,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Velásquez, Daniel.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Yazmin García Rico is Director of Latinx and Hispanic Policy and Strategy at the North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services (NC DHHS). She recounts her activism during her tenure in college, helping Latinx youth navigate college enrollment and her outreach efforts to connect farmworker communities with healthcare and other resources. Thanks to the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals policy, Yazmin was able to continue helping farmworkers after college in various positions, and also earn a Master’s degree in social work at UNC-Chapel Hill. Yazmin expresses deep regret at her father’s passing from COVID-19 at a time before vaccines or treatments were available. She subsequently joined NC DHHS in her current role to coordinate vaccine distributions and address disparities in the pandemic’s impact on the state’s Latinx population. Yazmin’s journey is marked both by her own determination and the determination of others in her network to help open doors for her. In that vein, Yazmin emphasizes the need for support systems that can help uplift Latinx youth and address underrepresentation across state leadership.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Yazmin García Rico by Daniel Velásquez, 21 April 2023, R-1011, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29349
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Activism; COVID-19; DREAMers and DACA; Education; Social networks
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Administradores de servicios de salud
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Yazmin García Rico es Directora de Política y Estrategia Latinx en el Departamento de Salud y Servicios Humanos de Carolina del Norte (NC DHHS, por sus siglas en inglés). Cuenta sobre su activismo durante su estancia en la universidad, ayudando a jóvenes latinos a matricularse y sus esfuerzos de alcance (outreach) para conectar a las comunidades de trabajadores agrícolas con atención médica y otros recursos. Gracias a la Acción Diferida para los Llegados en la Infancia (DACA, por sus siglas en inglés), Yazmin pudo seguir ayudando a los trabajadores agrícolas después de la universidad en varios puestos, como también obtener una maestría en trabajo social de la UNC-Chapel Hill. Yazmin lamenta no haber podido ayudar a su padre en Veracruz, quien falleció de COVID-19 cuando ella trabajaba en un hospital del Condado de Alamance organizando la distribución de alimentos y recursos para combatir la pandemia. Posteriormente se incorporó al NC DHHS en su puesto actual para coordinar la distribución de vacunas y abordar las disparidades del impacto de la pandemia en la población latina del estado. La trayectoria de Yazmin está marcada tanto por su propia determinación como por la de otras personas de su red que le han ayudado a abrir puertas. En ese sentido, Yazmin enfatiza la necesidad de contar con sistemas de apoyo que puedan ayudar a impulsar a la juventud latina y a abordar la falta de representación en el liderazgo estatal.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Yazmin García Rico por Daniel Velásquez, 21 April 2023, R-1011, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Activismo; COVID-19; Educación; Movimiento de jóvenes 'Soñadores' y Acción Diferida; Redes sociales
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Daniel Velásquez: I'm Daniel Velasquez. Today is April 21st, 2023. I'm here today with Yazmin García Rico, who is Director of Latinx and Hispanic Policy and Strategy at the North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services. Yazmin, thank you so much for sitting with me today for your oral history.
Yazmin García Rico: Thank you so much for having me.
DV: Okay, Yazmin, let's get started with some basic information. Could you tell me about your personal background? Where were you born and raised and any early life experiences that you would like to share?
YGR: Yeah, so a little bit about myself. I was born in Orizaba, Veracruz, Mexico, which is, Veracruz is in the Gulf Coast, and I was there for the first few years of my life. Some of the experiences that are the most memorable are really the times that I spent with my grandparents who were very crucial in my upbringing. I really enjoyed spending time in their house, eating the food that my grandma used to make, and I am just really grateful for the time that I had with them. They both passed away when I was in the US, so I didn't get a chance to see them in the last couple years of their lives or last few years of their lives. So, it's something that I really cherish a lot. And I also remember a lot the train, for some reason, because the train was a very, sort of, central part of my life. My dad used to work for the railroad company of Mexico and so we used to travel in the train to see family. I could hear the train from my house, from my grandparents’ house, and so I think for me that reminds me even here now as an adult every time I hear the train I think of home, I think of my dad and really what I think he wanted us to learn from him which is work ethic and dedication to, you know, to whatever you're passionate about. So, Mexico, when I think of, you know, childhood, I think of Mexico. I think about my culture and in a completely different life in a way because everyone around me looked like me. And I think that really shaped me in a way that may be different for other people that don't have that same experience.
DV: Thank you. What brought you to the United States, and to North Carolina, specifically?
YGR: So, I think definitely it was to seek a better life, to have a little bit more stability financially and more opportunities in terms of an education. I remember thinking about maybe one day I'll grow up and I'll be able to work for the government, which was crazy to think about as a child. So, when it actually happened was it like, oh, you know, I did think that I probably was around 13, 12 when I had that idea. One of the ideas crossed my mind, I think I was like--. I watched a lot of movies and American shows and, I don't know what I watched at that moment but I remember thinking about growing up and doing a job that served in government, in that capacity. So that's the initial reason why I ended up in the United States, not really knowing the complexity and the, you know, challenges and how life would be. I only had movies as a, you know, baseline of what the United States was.
DV: Tell us about your education and any other formative experiences here in North Carolina. I know that you've held many internships and have been involved in various volunteer positions. And you probably have gained some leadership experience along the way, so tell us about all that.
YGR: Yeah, so this is for me a long journey. [Laughter]
DV: Okay.
YGR: For me, being able to get an education really has been a path that has taken a long time. I got to the US when I was about 13 years old and I started eighth grade. So the first couple years were really trying to get a sense of the school, the language, the culture. I had no idea what Thanksgiving was, Halloween, just different things that are the normal here that I didn't have awareness of. So I had to learn a lot about just the culture in the South too, if you add that layer. So, education was something that I was always interested in. I don't think it was ever a question for me if I was going to go to college. At that point I just didn't know how, but I knew I wanted to go to college. And so going through high school I think that was really when I developed a little bit more in my understanding of English and I still tried to grasp a sense of what everyone around me already knew and that I was trying to, you know, catch up with. I only knew about one school, one college, and that's because a friend of mine in high school who was three years older, I was a freshman he was a senior, he was also from Veracruz. He took the same classes that I was taking. He took French. He had the same math teachers, and he went to college. He was also undocumented at the time, so I just thought of like, okay, if he can do it and he has pretty much the same path, I can do it too. And so, I only applied to one college, which was Guilford College. And I applied there because my friend was there. He gave me a tour himself. He took me around. And, you know, thinking back, it's crazy because that was a time where not everyone had a computer. Everything was done, you had to print your application, you had to mail it, you had to call and see if they received it. You know, it was back in the day and so applying just to one college was really hard for me. It was you just felt this is an extensive, you know, sort of process getting those letters of recommendation, putting everything together to submit it to the school. And I was really grateful to have--there were two, three teachers in high school that were very supportive. My math teacher, I remember she encouraged me to take more challenging classes, like statistics. And if it wasn't for people like her that challenged me to take college prep classes and continue to push myself, I don't know that I would have had that support system that gave me the letters of recommendation and that sort of re-assured that I could do it, that I was capable. My English teacher, Mr. Ringwalt, he also went to Guilford, so he was knowledgeable with the college. He gave me that letter of recommendation. And so that was definitely--. Those years are really fun to think about because I would not--. I'm a shy person overall, but not knowing the language well can add a little pressure in terms of being nervous to speak. And so, I remember in the classroom I would never raise my hand to speak up, but I knew all the answers because I was studying really hard at home. And so, I remember one of my teachers from world history, he started telling everyone in the class that I got a hundred, it was like a hundred questions. And it was one of the final tests and I got them all right and he was telling everybody, how come just me who doesn't speak ever in class and who's still learning English, has every question right and a lot of you know the language and you still don't get it? So that was like, okay, thank you. But also, that you don't have to, you know, showcase me in front of everyone. So, I think he was fun.
DV: He was proud.
YGR: He was proud. He was highlighting, how dare you not do well. [Laughter]. And Yazmin, you know, who you know--. Everyone knew I was still learning English. I was not comfortable speaking up. The classes where I did the best were, like math--. Because I feel when I came to the U.S. my math, my level of knowledge in math was more advanced than everyone else, so for two, three years I was just, you know, going with the flow. I was not learning something new. I knew all the concepts and I knew how to do it because back in Mexico there were no calculators. Here you were given a calculator, literally was in the desk. And so I just knew how to do everything without relying, you know, on a device
DV: Wow.
YGR: So those were the classes where I--. Strategically I think it was helpful because I had friends who were Latino who, they were not good at math, but they spoke English. And so, I would be like, let me show you and help you but you help me in other classes so that's how I navigated eighth and ninth grade, I think. Just kind of exchanging the skill sets because for a lot of eighth grade--. I don't know how I passed ninth grade because I honestly didn't know anything but math. Somehow I ended up in high school and that's where I really dedicated a lot of time to watching movies and trying to learn English and really pushing myself to understand even if I wasn't able to speak fluently. So high school was definitely fun. I mean, challenges, you know, that age, that time, it's hard, bullying and stuff like that, but I feel like for me I was really focused on just trying to understand and trying to learn and trying to do well. And I think it was around, probably eleventh grade when I started to be more conscious of the barriers that I was going to be confronted with. Because I knew I wanted to go to college, I didn't know that it was going to be hard in terms of my immigration status being one of those barriers. That's when I started to hear a lot about out-of-state tuition for public universities for people who didn't have documents, and also not being able to obtain my driver's license. I went to the driver's ed class and by the end when I got my certificate is when that changed in North Carolina.
DV: Oh wow.
YGR: So, I was not able to get my driver's ed even though I went to the course just because by the time I finished is when things shifted.
DV: The rules changed.
YGR: And then there were other, sort of, institutions of higher education that were switching their policies of who could come to school. And maybe you could register but if someone else wanted to be in the class you would be kicked out and you would still have to pay out-of-state tuition or you would just not be welcome. So it was a lot of just--. It was hard. It was just hard to kind of think about where would I go. And so, meeting my friend who went to Guilford sort of opened up that one opportunity for me to think about, you know, he did it, I'm going to do it too. And somehow I made it to Guilford College. There was a program there called Bonner Scholars Program that provided scholarship support for low-income students that were interested in doing service, community service and service learning.
DV: What was the name of the program?
YGR: Bonner Scholars Program. And it's a national program, but not every school has it. That program at Guilford at the time was a four-year program where you started as a freshman and took a class and did service hours during the semester, did internship experiences during the summer, and all as a part of a cohort with your class, but also connecting to other Bonners from other classes. And I think for me, thinking back, I mean I've been aware of this for a long time that I was definitely one of--. A fortunate student that got that opportunity because not many students like myself at the time and even still now were able to have that opportunity. I think it was a combination of knowing certain people, like the program, that I got admitted to the school, my grades I guess, but also my dad helped me a lot because he was in Mexico, and he would support me financially as much as he could to be able to pay tuition.
DV: Wow.
YGR: So, the difference was that if I was to go to a public institution, I would have paid out-of-state tuition that can be like two, three times as much as the regular tuition. In Guilford College, being a private school, you get charged the same. You might not get as much help, but at least it's not more money than what you know already that you're going to get charged. And with the scholarships, we were able to piece it together. And Guilford was definitely, again, one of those shaping experiences for me because since I got to the school, I had a group of people that came along that I know had shared values in a way or shared goals of giving back to the community. And it was really cool because it was people from all over the world, from all over the United States but also all over the world. And getting to see how we're different, but we have very similar experiences, was really nice. I remember one of the trips we took which was our first-year experience summer trip, and we went to a Native American reservation for a couple weeks. And so, at that point I was undocumented, so I didn't have a driver's license. I didn't have anything but my Mexican passport and so I called my dad, and I told him that there's this trip that falls in my birthday and that I wanted to go and that, you know, there were risks because I would be flying. And he told me do you want to go, and I said yes. He's like, well, do it. So, I went on that trip pretty nervous because, I mean, I had a little fear of what could happen but thankfully everything went well. And I spent two weeks in that reservation. Some of my peers, I had peers from like Kenya and peers from different parts of Middle Eastern just like Europe and then U.S. So it was really neat to be in that space and get to know even more, like a diverse group. And I remember they asked us if we wanted to stay at a cabin or in one of the teepees. And a lot of us being international, what you would consider an international student or not an American student, we were like, we're not sleeping in the teepee. It's like, we've been there, you know, we've been already in conditions that may not be the most desirable, so we're like, no.
DV: We want to be comfortable.
YGR: Yes, we want to be comfortable. And so that was really funny to see that you just share experiences or just thinking with other peers that were trying to be more comfortable, not suffer more than we need to.
DV: What was the destination?
YGR: That was Montana.
DV: Okay.
YGR: So we were in Montana in a Native American reservation. We arrived to Billings and then drove out and everyone there in that reservation was really nice to me and to another Mexican student because we look alike. When I got to the reservation I was like, oh, is this--. It looked like people could be, you know, I could have been in Mexico because we look alike. And so, I definitely saw that treatment in a better way towards us and we got to cook for them pozole, also tacos, tacos dorados with buffalo meat. It was an interesting mix and just a really cool experience, and all that to say that, that program really shaped me because it kind of got us out of our comfort zone, got us to learn a lot about other cultures and about ways of connecting because we're people and finding those commonalities. That week when we were there, we didn't know that Obama was going to be at the reservation.
DV: Oh wow
YGR: This was when he was running for his campaign, the first time. And there were no phones, no clocks, nothing. We were like no technology, no TV. We were disconnected in the reservation, and we were told one morning after breakfast, get ready, we're going to go to this event. So, we got ready and left and it was Obama who was visiting the reservation and that was really neat. One of those really cool experiences. And then get to see him, you know, actually become president--. But going back to Bonner Scholars Program and Guilford College, I was highly involved in different activities that related to the Latino community, more specifically Latino youth or Latino students. I ran an after-school tutoring program called Latino Impact, and we went to McLeansville to a middle school and did tutoring of students. So I would have volunteers come with me and we helped with their homework. It was sixth graders for the most part, sixth, seventh, eighth graders. And then once a year, I helped to co-found a conference for Latino students called Soy Un Lider. So my fall semester, my first fall semester at Guilford, we co-founded a conference with a friend that went to high school with me. He was a senior, I was a freshman, and so he had this idea and sort of brought me on board to help co-found this one-day conference. And then he graduated, and so I felt I needed to keep it going. And we brought--.We started by bringing 150 to 200 students. And then it just grew from there every fall. And they had the experience of visiting the college, eating in the cafeteria, going to workshops, and the whole point was sharing with them information, resources that would help them to get to college, and hopefully not struggle as much as we did in not knowing what was even available or what options we had, and that was very geared towards undocumented and first-generation Latino students. And those experiences I feel like, it really gave me the ability to think through what is in our reach to push for change, what resources we have, and make the most with what you have. Because we were just, you know, college students. We would visit high schools and just talk to the administration and be like, we want to invite students. So little by little, we grew those relationships. We got school systems to provide their bus, the transportation for students to get to the conference. It was on a Saturday. We got funding from the school to pay for the breakfast and to give them gear, so it was just really cool to kind of give back in that sense. Even if it was one day, even if it was, you know, just a tiny piece of information. It was nice to see that hopefully they will hear something today that will have an impact in them. And I think for me the most favorite memory of that conference every year was coming into the cafeteria when they were eating lunch and just to see how many Latinos were in that space. And to see other students from campus walking in and just being like, who are these people? This is not the norm, right? A lot of us were one student who identifies Latino in the classroom; and so to be able to have that many people on campus and to see themselves there, but also to see other people acknowledge their presence, those are the moments that I live for in a way.
DV: So, you started it with your friend freshman year and then you continued it, until?
YGR: I continued every year until I graduated and it's still happening.
DV: Wow.
YGR: Like everything that, you know, they have up and downs in terms of leadership and support from school with administration change. And so that results in more resources or less resources that go into the conference, but it's still happening.
DV: That’s great.
YGR: And that just, you know, sort of uplifts my spirit because I know that at that moment we were focused on the Latino students. There are other students who also need that same support, like international students, refugees, asylees. And Greensboro has a large population of--. A really diverse population. So they also broadened a little bit the confidence to make sure that they were doing outreach to those students as well. So it is still happening, and it is one of those things that keeps me really close with the school, knowing that even after 10 plus years, it is still a need and there's still people who are willing to do that work. And other couple things that Guilford was, at that moment, the Latino club on campus was Hispanos Unidos de Guilford. And, you know, there's different ways that people identify themselves, so I use Latino a lot, Latina, Latinx, Hispanic. At that moment in time, from 2007 to 2011, Hispanic was the word that most people used. So, the club was Hispanos Unidos de Guilford. And we did a lot of activities throughout the year, celebrated Farm Work Awareness Week, celebrated Hispanic Heritage Month. I also was seen as an international student to Guilford because of my application. So I also did a little bit of the international club. So, I don't know, it felt like it was a small campus and had a lot of resources. And it gave me the ability to do different things and connect with different groups of students and bring them all together in a way. And so that was inspiring for me to see that, okay, people follow me. For some reason, people volunteer to help me. And it's what we need, right? We need groups of people who are excited about something. And for me, that was really energizing. And that conference, the Soy Un Lider Conference, is like I'm a leader. And sometimes, a lot of times, even students, even adults, we doubt ourselves of our abilities to do something. And I think for me, that learning lesson there was like, you might be the one leading or pushing but you need a group of people because one person cannot do it alone. And in leadership also looks different in a way. I might be a quiet leader right, but you can still do things in front of people, behind the scenes. So that's something that I really learned at that moment, and I try to remind myself because sometimes it's still hard. You know, imposter syndrome comes back, and you try to question, am I in the right place? Do I belong? Can I do this? So just thinking about that younger Yazmin who was able to do something, and people believed. And it had an impact. It helps me to move through. And you asked about internships.
DV: Right.
YGR: I did two internships that I recall more clearly. My first internship was at Student Action with Farmworkers and that was, again, an internship that my friend did. So, I was like he did it I'm going to go and do it. And he was--.
DV: The same friend?
YGR: Same friend
DV: Wow
YGR: Same friend. And so, he told me about the internship. As a Bonner Scholar, we were supposed to do an internship. And so, I worked in a clinic of Piedmont Health Services in Prospect Hill as a farm worker, outreach worker, doing outreach to farm worker camps. And so, we visited farms or like camps, we call it camps, which is the housing where farm workers live. It might be a trailer; it might be a big building that looks like a warehouse. And it can vary from like 3, 4, 5, 10 farm workers to like 150 or more farm workers. A lot of them come from Mexico and through the H-2A visa , and work in the fields for a time frame and go back home. And so, we would bring to them information around health, health education, we would take their blood pressure and talk to them about diabetes. And just trying to provide information and resources to them, connect them to the clinic if they needed an appointment, if they needed medicine. And that really, that internship is something that I feel really shaped me again because even if I grew up in Alamance County, I had no idea that just 40, 20, 30 minutes away there are farms and there's farm workers. And that a lot of them are actually from my home country and that looked like they could have been my dad, my grandpa, my granddad, or one of my siblings, or someone I know. And just to see the disparity in terms of access to healthcare, resources, and a lot of injustices that may happen because of their job. The different power dynamics that come into play. And that really got me into the sort of farm worker justice movement here
DV: It galvanized you.
YGR: Yes. In North Carolina.
DV: So this internship is happening while you're in college?
YGR: Summer yeah, a whole summer. So, during college I was doing the tutoring, I was doing the club on campus, and I was doing also the conference once a year. During the summer we had an internship, and it was--. This first one was a Student Action with Farmworkers, and this summer internship is called Into the Fields. And so it brings students from North Carolina and farmworker students from other parts of the country like Idaho, California, Texas, where there's other farm worker populations that at that time were bigger, and that--. Either it could be children of farm workers or even children that worked as farm workers at some point. So it was a really cool space because a lot of--. To be part of the internship, you had to speak Spanish. And so even those that were not Latino, like they spoke Spanish and liked the culture, and it was like a cohort, you know. Sort of a program where there's retreats, there's trainings, there is just different types of activities that help you feel more comfortable with who you are. And I think one of the things for me, too, is I didn't have a problem with being who I am because that's who I am. I grew up in Mexico, so I feel very grounded on my language and my culture, but I know other people who grow up here sometimes have a challenge because it's like, at home it's one culture and outside it's another culture so you're trying to grapple with who you are and what's okay because of the pressure. So I really got to see other students who were at the beginning a little shy to speak Spanish, or a little shy to say where they were coming from, or a little shy to dance, you know, bachata salsa whatever and then by the end they were this is who I am and like--.
DV: Embracing it.
YGR: Yeah, embracing their culture. So I loved being part of that experience and to also learn it's okay to be who I am in terms of the context of being an immigrant and having you know English as my second language, having an accent, like those things I think that those were the things that I got from the experience as well. And that having this bicultural, bilingual experience and a skill set also can contribute in different ways in the workplace, because at the end of the day we were increasing capacity for organizations that were doing this outreach. And this was at the time where there were no smartphones, so we would do outreach based on a map. We would pull a big map and then try to find the street where the camp was and then drive around the country and then try to figure out where this house is. And there would be notes like, you know, look at the tree in this intersection. A lot of farmworker housing is not like a regular housing that you can see from the road. It might be a dirt road that you have to go. And then, you know, it's kind of hidden from communities. So it's really crazy to think now that we just put something on the GPS, and it tells us, sometimes even shows you a picture of what it looks like, but back in the day, it was really pairing up with one more student, intern, or the supervisor and driving with them and figure out where the housing was. So I learned a lot and got to network a lot through that internship. I feel that led me to my second internship the following summer, which was at American Friends Service Committee, AFSC, which is a Quaker organization. And at the time it was based in Greensboro. And the director at the time of the immigrant rights program, she was also SAFista. And we call SAFista anyone who has done any SAF program, any Student Action with Farmworkers program. So she was a SAFista from back in the day, leading this program in immigrant rights and I applied for an internship there and got to learn more about the immigrant rights space like the advocacy happening at the time in general, advocacy for issues that we still face today like immigration reform, humane immigration reform, driver's license, tuition equity, all those issues that are still present. And I got to learn and be in the space and support those efforts during that summer. And that person, that director, really became one of the people, too, that became part of my support system. And I think that is what I'm really grateful for; that all throughout my journey I have found those people. Like I mentioned in high school, teachers, in my internships and in the different spaces that I was part of finding people that are going to be there for you no matter, you know, how you move in life through other spaces. She's been one of those people that has been job references for me, you know, one of those people that I call and try to ask at different points for her thoughts and feedback and that got to know me more during that time of my life. So those are the main internships that I think really took me in terms of helping me to develop my resume per se. So, by the time that I graduated, I had a lot of things. Like, I was, not just--.
DV: You were just busy.
YGR: I was busy, not just participating, but I was leading on campus and also participating in the internships. And I think that I'm grateful for that. I don't regret it. But looking back, I know that I was overcommitted. And I guess the weight that I was carrying, it was like, if I don't do it, who will do it because there were not a lot of Latino students on campus at the time. It was only a few of us. It was like three Mexican students, different classes, you know, Puerto Ricans, a couple. Some people that were adopted from Latin America and were trying to connect with their, you know, culture of the country where they were born, but there were not a lot of Latino students, so it just felt like I was trying to do it all.
DV: You felt like it was your responsibility, then?
YGR: Yes, yes, because I knew, and I was very aware that a lot of students that went to high school with me didn't make it to college. And it wasn't because they didn't want to, it was because it was not easy, or it was because they were discouraged very early on because they were told there is not going to be a way for you to do it even if you have documents. That's what really is really crazy, and I know it's still happening. If your family hasn't gone through higher ed, and if you're a person of color, if you're Latino, if you're a child of immigrants, a lot of times this system and people around it still kind of, don't see that in you or don't encourage that in you. Or even worse, like discourage you and tell you that's not an option. I know, I went to my counselor in high school, and they didn't know how to help me. There's no supports in many places still, or not enough for students. So, I definitely felt like I wanted to give back and that's why Soy Un Lider Conference focused on Alamance County, Guilford County, and Forsyth because it was sort of my hometown and surrounding counties where the conference took place. And that really sort of pushed me to do so much, which I think helped me in my professional sort of career path. But my senior year was really stressful because I was trying to graduate, fulfill my requirements. I was a business--. I was a French and business, sort of French major. Business was supposed to be my second major, but I ended up having to graduate. I think I ended up graduating with two minors in business and one more thing I don't even remember, oh my gosh. I had completed three minors, but they don't let you graduate with three minors. I had major in French and three minors in business related but I had to pick two, so I think it was business and business law. And the reason was, I was short one class to finish my major in business. But at that point I was like, I'm done, I don't need to, I didn't have the money, I didn't have the energy to come back and finish one more class to complete that business double, to have a double major. So, I was like, I'll just graduate. And I think it was just, I was so over committed and tired because I was also, towards the end, I tried to find ways to work to earn a little money so that I could still sort of be okay, because every year tuition goes up. And so, by the time I started I think it was like 10K a semester, no, 15K a semester. By the time I finished, it was way higher than that. So it was a lot of, sort of, pressure, and I was just ready to graduate. When I graduated I was still undocumented, so that year was hard, 2011 to 2012, because I had a degree and it was sort of--. I found myself in a place where a lot of people had sort of questioned, before, what are you going to do when you graduate and you still don't have documents to work. I heard that a lot during my time in college and that was hard because it's like you want to be motivated, you want to keep pushing, you want to show that you're doing the most with the opportunity, but that’s a real question that I tried to ignore because I didn't want to lose sight of my goal which was to graduate. And it was hard to kind of keep going that year just trying to figure out what am I going to do, and I knew that maybe I needed to go back to Mexico if I couldn't work here. And that's why I was going for business and French in college, because I wanted something that could maybe help me if I had to go back to my home country or end up going to a different country. I couldn't graduate with anthropology or sociology because my family would have been like what are you going to do with that, you know. What do you do with that degree in another country like Mexico. So, it was 2012, the summer of 2012 when President Obama announced the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals and that was the light that I was waiting for. That was the moment that I was preparing for. And so, I didn't doubt enrolling into the program as soon as it was an option. I remember I heard about it, I was so excited, started putting all my documents together, thinking through what they would be asking for. And as soon as the day came to be able to apply and submit an application, I was one of those first ones that I know of in my circle of friends. And I know a lot of people were fearful because, I mean, you know we don't trust the government a lot of times for various reasons, and so people were really fearful of coming forward. And then you know not knowing what really could happen once you did that. But I just felt like what am I going to lose, I don't have anything to loose. And so I applied, and I was going through that process, waiting to hear back, going to do my biometrics, my fingerprints and all that. And then I saw this job that opened up at the Student Action with Farmworkers, which was the first internship, the first organization that I interned for. And so, I was like, I'm going to apply. And so, I applied, and the position was National Organizer. And so I was going through the application process and waiting to hear back about DACA. And I went to two or three interviews, and I got a call on a Friday saying that I got the job and I was so happy. And I wanted to say yes but I still didn't have my work permit, so I asked for a couple days to think about it but I know I didn't have anything to think about. I wanted a job. I just wasn't ready.
DV: Were you giving yourself time to get those permits, maybe?
YGR: Yeah. And so, in that call I was like, oh yes, can I think about it and get back to you next week? And that weekend I got my work permit. It just felt like it was meant to be and everything lined up. So I got my work permit, I started working that December at Student Action with Farmworkers leading up to 2013. And that really opened up the doors for me in so many ways. Having DACA, being able to use--. Because a lot of jobs they don't ask you--. I mean they say preference in a degree on this, right? But they're looking at the education level, like bachelor's degree, master's degree, or whatever. And so, I had the degree, I had the experience, and I wanted to be able to do something, get a job that I was passionate about. And so DACA opened up that for me. And this organization means a lot to me because it was the first organization that opened the doors to give me an internship knowing my situation. Because I've always been pretty open about, you know, my situation and who I am, so it meant a lot for me that that was my first job. And I was there for about three, four years working in different roles as a national organizer, coordinating National Farmworker Awareness Week, doing a lot of the alumni engagement. Later became director of the youth program, so working with youth, farmworker youth, and really networking and connecting and supporting a lot of that farmworker advocacy movement in the state to improve the working and living conditions of the population. And during that time, it was towards my last year and a half working there, that I realized that I wanted to go back to school. And it was a combination of, started looking at people around me. Well, I knew I wanted to go back to school, but I didn't know for what. Because at that point, I only knew my one friend. [Laughter]. Going back to my one friend that had gone to Guilford from my high school, he went and did his MBA. And so, I knew that there was Master’s in business administration, but I was like, ah, I knew I did business in college, but that's not where my heart is. And so that was not what I wanted to do. I didn't know many people personally, you know friends, close friends or family that had a Master’s, but I started looking at everyone around me and trying to figure out what their degree was. People that I looked up to in the work. This was before LinkedIn. You couldn't just you know figure out what people's journey was. I started meeting with people for coffee. I ended up meeting with 15 or more social workers. And they were all doing different work, in farmworker-related, immigrant rights-related, just different type of work. And I was like, I want to be a social worker, because they're all doing work that I would love to be able to do, positions that I would love to have. And that's one of the reasons why I chose social work. And the other one is because I was working with the farmworker youth, and it was really working with them, their families, their siblings, their networks, because they would connect. They would know that there was a need, and they would refer people to me to try to find support and resources for them or just hear them out. And a lot of those concerns and just things that people were going through were really heavy and I didn't know how to deal with that. I couldn't go home and not think about it, or I couldn't get frustrated that there was nothing else that could be done to help them and so I knew that social work would give me a little bit more of that training on to figure out how you even help, and how do you respond, what's your role. How to push systems and how to continue to advocate for people in different ways, and that's when I ended up going to the school social work at UNC. That was a whole different journey. A whole different journey because I had been out of school for years. I still, I was DACAmented, as they say, and still had to pay out-of-state tuition if I wanted to go back to school. And it felt selfish to want to go back to school when there were a lot of people still that hadn't had the opportunity to even go to a community college or a college or university for a four-year degree, and I wanted more. So that kind of, I think I put those ideas on myself but it was just hard to kind of want more. And it was my support system, it was people around me that encouraged me to not give up and to find a way. And I met--. I had someone on Facebook that I thought it was the Facebook of this person that worked in the same building as me, and I did a lot of presentations and supported a class that happened for university students. So my support was really around farmworker information, presentations, and farmworker education for those students. So I had this person on Facebook, I thought it was this professor, but it really was that he shared that Facebook page with his wife. So it was the kids' Facebook page, and they both used it. They shared pictures of their children. So I posted something that like--. He knew that I wanted to go to school. I posted that I was trying to go to school, trying to find resources, scholarships and all that. And he connected me with his wife and said: I think you really want to talk to my wife, you should meet. She's also a social worker. And she wants to help you. And I didn't know that this whole time she had been--. She knew who I was because of Facebook, and so I met with her a weekend in this office, in her office, and we came up with a plan on how I was going to be able to go to grad school.
DV: Wow.
YGR: Like, who I needed to reach out to at the school, how I was going to try to pull in enough funding. And I walked away from her office with this big sheet of paper with everything on it and I really went on that path. I ended up having to fundraise for my education because there were not many scholarships for students like me. The ones that were available I applied out of the school, and I didn't get those. Very competitive national scholarships. And people like her and others connected me with people at the School of Social Work. Everyone at the School of Social Work knew that I was coming, who I was. There had seen emails about me, people advocating for me to be thought of for a scholarship support. It could be a little embarrassing. [Laughter]. You know, because people were like, this is just me and this is everything she's done, and she would be amazing, and these are the challenges that she has. So I think for me the most difficult part was to try to fundraise. And the moments that really were like--. That brought me a lot of joy. And just what surprised me a lot is people that didn't know me that supported me. Like people in my network spoke highly of me to their network and I got checks from people that I had never met. And some people didn't want me--. They wanted to be anonymous, they didn't need me to contact them and thank them and I was like I want to thank you, I want to know who you are. And people from my community, people from the community where I grew up also supported that.
DV: In Mexico?
YGR: Here.
DV: Oh, here.
YGR: Here in Alamance County. And so, to me it meant people believe in me, people are cheering for me, supporting me. And so I just went all in and fundraised for my whole grad school cost, and went into grad school trying to be the best student ever. Like read everything and do everything. I got to be an RA all throughout both years and the summer and learn from different professors. It was really one of those, again, life-changing experiences, because I never thought I would be able to be there. Even with DACA, even with a driver's license and a social security number, it's still a place that is not that accessible to DACAmented and undocumented students. So it felt surreal. And also hard because you're one of a few Latino students. There was, not that I knew of, any other student that was in the same situation that I was. And it's an institution at the end of the day, so there's things that could be better. We're always, as students, we're always challenging the system. We're always questioning, especially at the School of Social Work where in the code of ethics it's like social justice is one of those things that, you know, we care about. So it was interesting because I was sort of part of the advocacy but also working for professors and being an RA for the assistant dean, and you know. [Laughter]. Pushing here, but also this is my research assistantship and this is how I'm able to be in school. Because I was working for the school so that they could help me with my tuition, with part of the tuition, at least not pay out-of-state tuition, but pay it sort of the mid-level point through the funding that the research assistantship came with. So it was an incredible experience and I was able to do a couple internships there at the Hispanic Family Center through Catholic Charities in Raleigh. And then my final internship was an internship that I found on my own. It wasn't one listed. The list of internships, there was nothing that really spoke to me. And so I went to try to find an organization that had a social worker that could supervise me and that had the work that I wanted to do. And so I reached out to the American Civil Liberties Union who had two social workers. I knew one of them and I ended up being an intern there. And that's when DACA was rescinded. So it was when the Trump administration was trying to get rid of DACA and it was very fearful because DACA is what had opened the doors for me, it was the way that I could work for the school and finish grad school. And so I was in the middle trying to keep organizations informed, like support on that end, trying to support the advocacy efforts and be part of that work again, now as a grad student. Very nerve-wracking too because I felt like, I don't know, I just--. You just put ideas on yourself. I was--. The expectations are high on how I'm supposed to, you know, do the work because now I'm in grad school. I just felt it was I have to do my best and even better than, you know, two years ago because I'm a grad student and I put a lot of pressure on myself at that time. And I was able graduate from the School of Social Work and land on my first job. I applied for different things that felt sort of comparable, like going back to the farmworker space. I tried to get into philanthropy which didn't work at the time. I was seen as very young, not a lot of experience on that sort of area. And then I ended up being sort of recruited or encouraged to apply for a position at the hospital in town. And it was working under the supervision of the person that was really crucial in helping me come up with a plan on how I was going to get to grad school. That woman that I mentioned that brought me to her office, that I knew her husband, and so also social worker. And I ended up applying for jobs. I got a job in farmworker health and I declined that job and ended up coming to work for the hospital. And I actually, I don't know, it's full circle in a way because I got to work in the community where I grew up, got to learn, got to meet more people. And understand the dynamics that happen in the county between non-profits, hospital, health department, things that work, things that could be better, contributing in the ways that I could to make spaces more welcoming of Latinos. Or try to bring a little bit more awareness of why you might not be seeing Latinos and how you could improve in your outreach. And having the supervisor I had was an amazing experience because she was a leader that tried to uplift and to give you the tools you needed to do what needed to be done. And it was a little crazy when she said that she wasn't in the office much because she was covering a broader region and that she was going to give me her office. And I was like, what?! The office where I first met her to come up with a plan on how I was going to get to grad school. That's what it meant to me. I was like, the office with three windows, I'm getting that office? So that just felt like, oh my god, full circle. I can't believe that two years ago, two and a half years ago, I was sitting in this office not knowing that I was going to be able to go to grad school and not knowing that I was going to be able to, you know, move on in my career thanks to having a master's degree.
DV: Wow.
YGR: And that work in the hospital was really rewarding, was really hard, too, because it was coming--. It was putting me out of my comfort zone not being in the immigrant rights space, farmworker advocacy space where everyone is aware of the community needs or trying to serve or have that shared goal. It was more of just different people, right, with different jobs, serving the broader community, very mainstream in a way, where there were little to no Latinos in the spaces where I was moving. And so that was hard to navigate, but also rewarding to see little by little sort of the impact of just my presence or a comment or a question or my--. Or giving input. We were able to do a lot of programming to grow the programming for the Latino population in Alamance County, connect people to resources that were available for free or little cost like mammogram, you know, just information on pre-diabetes, like connecting people to different resources. And that's when the pandemic hit. And that's when we all shut down in terms of showing up to the office. And my supervisor being very supportive allowed me to do the work that I thought was needed, which was to support with basic needs to the community because people were staying home, losing their jobs or not being able to work, like not having food. It was just really like a chaos. And so I worked closely with the Dream Center in Burlington. Past Lisa had this idea of doing a food giveaway and trying to find meals and give it out to the community. And it was literally her family, my husband and I, and one more couple on the first day. And they bought food, they found funding, and I came up with ways to improve our system. I supported that day. We had cars coming through one end of the building going all around and we had a tent we were giving out the food it was very, like, the first day was a mess. It was good but it was like we were just trying to improve, and we served, I don't know if the first day we served like 120 families. I don't know, a crazy number of just cars that came by and we just gave them food and you know trying to have PPE on us and protect ourselves and protect others but give food. And that just grew and grew and grew and every week we were giving more and more food. So many people came along to help after that first day, we had nonprofits showing up, Elon University leadership, people from the city of Burlington, the mayor was out there, former mayor was there giving out food. And just different people came and helped and it just grew from giving this full menu that people can choose from American and Latino food and diapers and fruit and getting donations and giving out masks and giving out, you know, what we could. And it was definitely like--. Thursday was the day where even people that didn't know what was going on they would see the lines of cars and would come and get in line. They were like we don't know what's happening, but everybody's coming so we want to come and see. And it had a huge impact on nonprofits and organizations who had heard about Latinos, who had heard about the Dream Center, but really didn't come close yet, so they got to see the community and that was impactful too because a lot of times people may ask where are the Latinos, right? They're not coming, and we're here, we're part of the community. They're just busy working jobs that sometimes are not visible and they're keeping to themselves because it's what's comfortable and it's what feels safe. And the Dream Center became that sort of place that a lot of people start to recognize the habit trust in the community that was in the, in the part of town where we needed resources the most. And so, it was really neat to be able to give back during those times that were really difficult. That was before testing. Then testing came around and we coordinated, I helped to coordinate in the county different places for testing. We were going to the places in the community where we could see the higher rates or where we wouldn't, we didn't see rates because we also thought people were not being tested there. In rural parts of the county, different parts of the county, and it was free testing for anyone that wanted it in a drive-thru sort of way in collaboration with the health department. And so I was in that time when I got a call that my dad was feeling, was ill, was not doing well in Mexico, and had to go back to Mexico. And he had gotten COVID, it was July, and he didn't make it. So that was really hard because I was here, you know in the response and trying to provide what I could to the community and then my dad was home, not feeling well, not telling us for some days because, my dad. And I got to Mexico and by the time I got there he was at a hospital, and I was not able to go in. I was not able to see him. And that just was so hard for my family and for myself. And a lot to kind of deal with and process in that sort of very scary way of you not being able to be there for your loved one, you not being able to even do the proper traditional way of a funeral. Or doing the things that we usually would do for the people we love. And so that 2020 was definitely a rough year for me and then coming back to--. Having to come back and go back to work and still processing that for a long time. And my husband was running for office, too, at that time, so it was a lot to kind of grieve for my dad, be strong for family, and support my husband as he was running his first campaign for office. And that fall is when, I was supposed to become a citizen in March, but it happened that the pandemic got here and everything got shut down, so it got pushed to October, and I was able to become a citizen in October. And that was sort of, one of the first sort of big painful moments because it was one of the first few life milestones that I wasn't able to call my dad and tell him. And I remember that being really hard just because it's a moment that I should be happy but it was, you know--. When he, when someone you love is no longer a part of your life, it's really hard to kind of figure out the thing that I would do is not something that I can do anymore. But I guess the little happiness or the little sort of moment that brought comfort was knowing that, I feel like I know that he's with me, you know, in different ways now and that he would be happy for me. And also, that same day, because of the pandemic, it was very weird citizenship ceremony where it was three of us in this huge room and nobody else could come into the building. They asked the questions. They did my interview, my final interview, and then right away put us in this room for the oath. So I did everything in one day instead of doing two parts as usually the process would be, and then I got out of there and drove directly to early voting. It was the last day of early voting, and so I registered to vote during early voting before it closed, and I voted for my husband. And I was like, I cannot believe that this is happening and then drive straight to the library to request my passport because I was like, there's no going back, they can't take this away from me. I'm going to do everything I need to do--.
DV: Yeah, you made it.
YGR: To get this, you know, to get to this point. So it was a full day of, you know, just--. I feel like I was running, before anybody changed their mind, to do what I needed to do. So 2020 was definitely bittersweet in many ways, for many of us, but definitely very high highs and very low lows. And then that fall I got a call from a friend that said, do you want to do the work that you're doing at the county level but at the state? And I was like, no, I got enough with my county. There's plenty of work to do here and I'm doing all I can. And I was like, still doing the work with the hospital, canvassing. Well we were starting to do lid drops, not canvassing, that fall, and just juggling everything and grieving. And it was probably a month later that I saw the job description for the job that I have now and I fell in love with it because it was the focus on the Latino community, it was really working at a systems level. It felt that every part of my journey was leading me to this job, from a personal, to a professional, to an educational experience. And so, I put my name in the hat. I applied, went through three interviews and was waiting to hear back and left to Mexico to see family. It was probably between November and December. I think it was like November, December.
DV: Still 2020?
YGR: In 2020. November December of 2020. I applied around September, October and then it was November, December, I was in Mexico riding a taxi with my husband. An old taxi, it was an old car, you could hear the engine, one of those cars. And so, I got a call from who would be my supervisor and I was in this car and the engine you could hear the eeeeh, and I was like this is embarrassing but I have to talk to her. So my husband try to tell the taxi driver to pull to the side because literally the sound was horrible and so he pulled over. And then she gave me the job offer and she said that, you know, congratulations you got the job. Gave me a little bit of information and said that I could review the documents that were coming to my email and then get back to them. And so that moment is very memorable because I was in Mexico, you know, the place where I was born, the city where I was born. And then getting to--. I'm getting to hear that I got a job working in the government in this place that I went to for better life and better opportunities, in a taxi with this horrible noise. And so that was really the moment that, you know, sort of shaped what was to come for the next two-plus years now. Came back, started working in January and it was really hard for many months working about 15 hours every day non-stop, no weekends, no evenings. Really being part of that early, since the very early stage of vaccine distribution, COVID-19 vaccine distribution in the state and prevention work. And having the weight of knowing that the Latino population was disproportionately impacted by COVID, and knowing that farmworkers were impacted, that meat-processing plant workers were impacted, just frontline workers who for the most part were Latino, were impacted and trying to do all I could to be part of that response. So it was a lot.
DV: What had happened with your dad, did you have that in your mind also when you went through that work?
YGR: Yes, yes and I was trying, you know, had a lot of--. I did seek therapy that didn't work. Didn't work, the therapist that I found was not a good fit and I was like, I'm wasting my time and I didn't have time to look for another therapist, but I had friends and people that were there for me. I know that it's hard, when you have a friend that is going through that you sometimes don't know how to act, you don't know what to say, you don't know how to support. But I did have people that were there for me and talked to me, you know, said: why are you doing this? Are you doing this for your dad? Also, don't feel like you have to sacrifice or like--. Not sacrifice yourself, but put yourself in a place where it's also painful because it's a reminder, right? And so I thought it through, and I know that part of me was trying to prevent the suffering of other families, and I do all I can to be part of that response because I know it was real. A lot of people were like, COVID is not real. And I was like, COVID is real. COVID is the reason why my dad is no longer here. And I think for me it was a part of giving back and trying to alleviate the situation as much as possible, or contribute to or control the pandemic, or prevent the spread. But also because I think this is my life's work. I never think about, in my path, in my career, it's never been about a position and a title, it's been about the work. What about this role will speak to me and will make a difference to the community that I care about? And that is sort of what drives me. And that's what really drove me to this job, looking at the job description and the possibilities, knowing that it was going to be really, really hard, knowing that I was going to end up working within an institution that was being held accountable by the advocacy groups that I was part of in previous roles. So it was a lot of--. It was really hard emotionally to navigate that because now I'm part of the system, right? And so being that bridge builder but also at times taking it all, and trying to help with solutions. But at the end of the day, now I'm the face or I became the face during those moments of what was not right, or what could be better and needed to be better with the same people that I was colleagues, you know, for a long time in the movement. So that was a hard shift and trying to--. I knew that I am here to improve the strategies, the initiatives, to make sure that we have a lens of the community, to look at policies and interventions and ways that we can be better. In that moment, it was specific to COVID-19, but also kind of showing people, feeling that I had to show people that I'm still me and I'm still here for the right reasons, even though I'm not part of the outside advocacy. So that was shift, it was the first time that I found myself in that sort of dynamic scenario. And it's been a really rewarding experience. It's been hard. It's been an adjustment, learning how government works. And it's also, for me, I'm really grateful to have been part of that team that was part of COVID-19 response at the state level because I saw that everybody was working nonstop and giving their all. And they had been there since the beginning, like the prior year when I was at the county level. So, the county-level work was hard physically because we were doing the food distribution, mentally, emotionally, but it was not the level of pressure at the state that I came to in 2021, and that I had to kind of, to do that work. And I think the other thing that has been rewarding there is to try to shape my job because it was the first time that this position was created, so there was not before anybody in this role. So try to establish myself and show people that I'm about collaboration, I'm about improving the work together. It is a system, it's huge. There's different things that could be better and trying to focus on what can we actually accomplish in the time that we have. And also I've gotten to work with students who are getting their Master’s of Social Work so now I get to, by this point I've had three students, supervised three students, that are becoming social workers who are Latina, who are bicultural with different life experiences, who have been in North Carolina, either were born here, grew up here, have been here for some time. And so that feels to me that is a part--. I've identified that that is a part that is important to me. Even if it's middle school, which is our ( ) age, high school, youth, just making sure that we're still working on that pipeline. Because this work is hard, and we need more people. I don't know why I'm getting emotional.
DV: It's okay.
YGR: I think it's--. What feels heavy a lot of times is that one person cannot change everything and many people are that one person in their space. And it's not fair to them, to the community, to the people. That we need more representation and I think that's what this pandemic really--. I hope that it's the lesson learned for everyone around that we can't wait for a global pandemic to realize that we're not representing the communities that we serve, that we don't have that representation for many systematic reasons, but also it's not the fault of people. From the education system to immigration system, to different systems at play that are not letting people move on to opportunities and be in those spaces. And from policies and practices that come into play, you know, who is being hired, who's given a chance, who's given a scholarship, looking at population, like do we have enough people at the table to be part of the solutions, to serve, so that people feel comfortable. I think that is the work ahead of ourselves. Right now, as we're coming out of this pandemic and everything is kind of going back to normal: not losing sight of what we learned, what was hard, and what we need to continue to implement that was done during COVID in, some shape or form, and continue to make it better. So I think that's what's on my mind a lot these days. Because I tell people, I did feel the pressure of people saying, oh you're the Latina doing all this work, but I'm like, I don't speak for all the Latino population. The Latino population is not monolithic. It's very diverse in so many ways. And I bring perspectives, I bring information, I bring research, I inform. And also, it should be more than one person. All throughout organizations, it should be that way, that people are either aware, knowledgeable, or they are representing the demographics that North Carolina is now. Because it's not like when I first went to high school, that I was the only Latina, you know, in my classroom. Now looking at Alamance County and seeing different schools that have sometimes even 40% Latino, and I could not dream of that when I was growing up. That was something that I didn't experience, right? So we need to make sure that we are setting those infrastructures in place to support the population, especially because--. I mean, I think North Carolina has grew a lot over the last 20 years in terms of demographics in the Latino population and our Latino population right now is still relatively young, but we're going to age and those systems need to be in place to be able to support the community. And so, this pandemic could have been worse in terms of death rates if we had been an older population. And we're not done confronting health disparities, chronic illnesses and everything that's to come.
DV: So that's what's on your mind for now in your current role?
YGR: Yes.
DV: So, considering all of these experiences, Yazmin, what would you say were the main factors that helped you along the way, that shaped the leadership that you have exhibited and continue to exhibit in your role?
YGR: I would say, I don't know. This is a hard one because I think there's definitely people, there's things that I've mentioned, like the people that have been part of my support system. The opportunities that I got that I know that not many people in my time, that share similar experiences, had. I think that, I don't know the word in English, sometimes this one goes away, but like, soy necia. I get into an idea, like I get like--. I think about this is what I want to do, and I just go for it. No matter if people are telling me, you're crazy, that's not doable, why, that's too much this, too much that, I just focus and go and do it. And in a way, I think it can be bad in different ways, you know. But in this case, just setting my mind to something has helped me, even when things were hard. And really having that support system: being family, being friends, being my husband, who believe in me and continue to encourage me and push me to do what I need to do, has been important. And we all have, you know, ups and downs, like there's definitely times and days where it's hard and I think about the why, right? I think about how I started, where I am, where were the possibilities. Knowing that the possibilities are endless, and we just have to keep pushing and that's something that I tell other young people. You never know, you can't just give up because you never know the opportunities that will come later and that's what happened for me. I went to school, to college not knowing that DACA was going to be a thing. And then I got DACA and then I pushed to try to go to grad school not knowing that I was actually going to be able to finish. And I never thought I would be able to become a citizen so you never know the path but you only do, you can only do what's in your control and that's what sort of keeps pushing me. I'm not able to fix everything but what's in my reach, I'll try to do. And it's the people that I've had, the motivation, the sacrifices of my family like my grandparents. For many, many years, my grandparents were in my mind a lot because I know sort of the challenges that they faced, the humble beginnings that they had, how they did all they could for their children. Now, with everything that I've gone through, my dad is on my mind a lot because I know how hard he worked, how much he supported me, how much he cared. His own way he showed us that he loved us. He was not very--.
DV: Affectionate.
YGR: Affectionate, but he showed us in his own ways, and he worked really hard. He was well respected in his job. Dedicated. For him, his job was like life, which sometimes can be bad, and I try to walk myself back when I am getting to that sort of mindset. There's more to life than just work. There’re other things. But I think for me, my job is also sort of my way of being a productive member of society and giving back and making--. Doing my best to make things a little better if even if it's in a small way. That's what sort of drives me. People that I love that I look up to or that were an important part of my life, and of course my mother, who is, who has been an amazing force for me. Yeah, just like thinking about people who have been there for me and what I can do for others. I think that's sort of what has helped me along the way. And I do want to believe that there's a God that has looked out for me because I would not be here in many ways. Just being an immigrant, you know, going through different experiences, something could have happened to me at different parts of my life to derail me from the path. Or to not even be alive, you know. Different kinds of ways. So, I am definitely grateful for that. And what motivates me a lot too, is that I'm not the only one. This is my story and is unique. But there's many stories like mine, and now we're getting to see more and more and more of that. And that really motivates me because during the time that I was sort of growing up and going to college and stuff like that, people would not talk about their experience or they would protect it, which it's so understandable. But now we have more and more people talking about it, bringing awareness, and pushing and advocating, and we're still in the same spot. DACA has been challenged. You know, new people, people who are coming of age cannot apply for DACA even if they qualify. There are no new applications that are being received. So we're not in a better place, even if many, many years have passed. Out of state tuition is still, you know, an issue. Access to driver's license for people is still an issue, immigration reform. So we are not where we need to be, but there's more people coming in and being part of that fight, and that is very motivating.
DV: Speaking of motivation and to conclude our interview, and you've already mentioned a little bit about future leaders, but thinking of all of your experiences, what advice would you give future Latino leaders so that perhaps you're not the only one in the space?
YGR: I think I would highlight unity and common goals. Like I mentioned, the Latino population, Latinx Hispanic population is very diverse in many ways. Immigration experience or, you know, maybe growing up here, generationally, too. We're so diverse. And I think what I would sort of highlight for leaders is the importance of working together and the importance of supporting each other and also the understanding that leadership looks different. And we need all kinds of leadership, and we need all kinds of strategies and advocacy, because I really see this as an ecosystem where different things are happening, and they build on each other and they help each other. And as the leadership grows and as the movement continues to, sort of, expand, I think as a community we got to work together and respect each other and make space for different voices. And I'm thinking very specific about the younger sort of age groups, that we all were young at one point, and we all thought that we could change the world at one point. And we need those mindsets because it is tiring. This journey is tiring. Someone texted me: the struggle is forever, after something happened and now it's like, yes, it's so real, the struggle is forever. We have to take care of each other. We have to take care of ourselves. We have to respect the different ways that people go about strategizing and, you know, fighting maybe within the system, maybe outside of the system, maybe in different ways, but we're not the enemy. Each other, we're not the enemy. We're just trying to move, work alone, and so I think it's important for us to keep that in mind and bring others along into the different spaces. If you have the opportunity to support other people, what better way than to, you know, take advantage of that? And also, if you have been in the space for a long time, hear from other voices and hear about what they're saying and make room in the space that you are to, like, have those people sit at the table. Because I feel that's something definitely that I have seen a lot in our state in terms of dynamics that happen, and that is not really doing us any good. It's actually taking away from the work that should be done. And just to not give up. I mean, I feel everyone's experience and everyone's journey is valid. We need to just sort of embrace each other. That is sort of what I feel I learned at Guilford when I was in the Hispanos Unidos de Guilford. We came together and we were all different, Latinos with different experiences from different walks of life, different countries, and just reassuring: yes, you are here, and you matter, and you are Latino no matter what. Who can, like, nobody can question that. No matter if you speak Spanish or not, no matter if you know how to salsa or not. There is no checklist of this is who you are as a Latino, and this is what makes you a leader. We all have different types of ways that we identify ourselves, different ways that we connect to our culture, different ways that we bring leadership to spaces. And I think because sometimes being the only one, or one of the only ones, that imposter syndrome can come, no matter how long you've been in the work, it’s really helpful when you have that support system and that little group or that person that understands you and supports you. And you can be that to someone else. And I think sharing our experiences and sharing the struggles can also help because you never know who can identify with you and who will hear that and make an impact. Just like my one friend [laughter] who I have followed all throughout. We're actually neighbors right now. We live really around the corner.
DV: Wow.
YGR: But one, one person--. I learned this recently. I spoke at a women's march when Women's March was a thing. I forgot what year, but I spoke at a women's march and there was someone in the audience that what I said resonated with her. Also undocumented, with similar experiences, trying to figure out how to make it to higher education. I was at grad school at the time. And recently she attended a conference and talked to someone else I know. And the question was, what was a time or who was someone that inspired you or something? And she talked about me, and she said, I went to these Women's March, and I heard this speaker that shared different things that I connected with, and that resonated with me. And my friend knew that I spoke to that, in that march, and so she was like, was this her? [Laughter]. And, and, you know, it's like, what?! That was years ago. And I was so scared to speak up and I was so scared to share my story. No matter how open I have been it's always, you know, nerve wracking in front of hundreds of people. And knowing that I said something that this young person was impacted by, and now she is incredible. She is an incredible advocate, doing a lot of advocacies and lobbying at the state level for immigrant rights. I'm inspired by her. But it's just funny to see how we have different points, and you never know when you say something, that person might be needing to hear those words. And she connected with that. So I wanted to cry when that was like, what? She, you know, Women's March--. And she's doing this incredible work and something I said inspired her to keep going. So I think that would be my one last sort of advice to others. You never know who you're impacting, so make sure that you're sharing your experiences with others.
DV: Well, thank you very much for sharing your journey and your story with us today. And your wisdom. Thank you very much.
YGR: Thank you.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Transcribers: Sofia Godoy & Daniel Velásquez
Interview Date: 2023 April 21
Date of Transcription: 2023 July 25. Revisions: 2023 31 August
Es: Transcripción
Daniel Velásquez: I'm Daniel Velasquez. Today is April 21st, 2023. I'm here today with Yazmin García Rico, who is Director of Latinx and Hispanic Policy and Strategy at the North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services. Yazmin, thank you so much for sitting with me today for your oral history.
Yazmin García Rico: Thank you so much for having me.
DV: Okay, Yazmin, let's get started with some basic information. Could you tell me about your personal background? Where were you born and raised and any early life experiences that you would like to share?
YGR: Yeah, so a little bit about myself. I was born in Orizaba, Veracruz, Mexico, which is, Veracruz is in the Gulf Coast, and I was there for the first few years of my life. Some of the experiences that are the most memorable are really the times that I spent with my grandparents who were very crucial in my upbringing. I really enjoyed spending time in their house, eating the food that my grandma used to make, and I am just really grateful for the time that I had with them. They both passed away when I was in the US, so I didn't get a chance to see them in the last couple years of their lives or last few years of their lives. So, it's something that I really cherish a lot. And I also remember a lot the train, for some reason, because the train was a very, sort of, central part of my life. My dad used to work for the railroad company of Mexico and so we used to travel in the train to see family. I could hear the train from my house, from my grandparents’ house, and so I think for me that reminds me even here now as an adult every time I hear the train I think of home, I think of my dad and really what I think he wanted us to learn from him which is work ethic and dedication to, you know, to whatever you're passionate about. So, Mexico, when I think of, you know, childhood, I think of Mexico. I think about my culture and in a completely different life in a way because everyone around me looked like me. And I think that really shaped me in a way that may be different for other people that don't have that same experience.
DV: Thank you. What brought you to the United States, and to North Carolina, specifically?
YGR: So, I think definitely it was to seek a better life, to have a little bit more stability financially and more opportunities in terms of an education. I remember thinking about maybe one day I'll grow up and I'll be able to work for the government, which was crazy to think about as a child. So, when it actually happened was it like, oh, you know, I did think that I probably was around 13, 12 when I had that idea. One of the ideas crossed my mind, I think I was like--. I watched a lot of movies and American shows and, I don't know what I watched at that moment but I remember thinking about growing up and doing a job that served in government, in that capacity. So that's the initial reason why I ended up in the United States, not really knowing the complexity and the, you know, challenges and how life would be. I only had movies as a, you know, baseline of what the United States was.
DV: Tell us about your education and any other formative experiences here in North Carolina. I know that you've held many internships and have been involved in various volunteer positions. And you probably have gained some leadership experience along the way, so tell us about all that.
YGR: Yeah, so this is for me a long journey. [Laughter]
DV: Okay.
YGR: For me, being able to get an education really has been a path that has taken a long time. I got to the US when I was about 13 years old and I started eighth grade. So the first couple years were really trying to get a sense of the school, the language, the culture. I had no idea what Thanksgiving was, Halloween, just different things that are the normal here that I didn't have awareness of. So I had to learn a lot about just the culture in the South too, if you add that layer. So, education was something that I was always interested in. I don't think it was ever a question for me if I was going to go to college. At that point I just didn't know how, but I knew I wanted to go to college. And so going through high school I think that was really when I developed a little bit more in my understanding of English and I still tried to grasp a sense of what everyone around me already knew and that I was trying to, you know, catch up with. I only knew about one school, one college, and that's because a friend of mine in high school who was three years older, I was a freshman he was a senior, he was also from Veracruz. He took the same classes that I was taking. He took French. He had the same math teachers, and he went to college. He was also undocumented at the time, so I just thought of like, okay, if he can do it and he has pretty much the same path, I can do it too. And so, I only applied to one college, which was Guilford College. And I applied there because my friend was there. He gave me a tour himself. He took me around. And, you know, thinking back, it's crazy because that was a time where not everyone had a computer. Everything was done, you had to print your application, you had to mail it, you had to call and see if they received it. You know, it was back in the day and so applying just to one college was really hard for me. It was you just felt this is an extensive, you know, sort of process getting those letters of recommendation, putting everything together to submit it to the school. And I was really grateful to have--there were two, three teachers in high school that were very supportive. My math teacher, I remember she encouraged me to take more challenging classes, like statistics. And if it wasn't for people like her that challenged me to take college prep classes and continue to push myself, I don't know that I would have had that support system that gave me the letters of recommendation and that sort of re-assured that I could do it, that I was capable. My English teacher, Mr. Ringwalt, he also went to Guilford, so he was knowledgeable with the college. He gave me that letter of recommendation. And so that was definitely--. Those years are really fun to think about because I would not--. I'm a shy person overall, but not knowing the language well can add a little pressure in terms of being nervous to speak. And so, I remember in the classroom I would never raise my hand to speak up, but I knew all the answers because I was studying really hard at home. And so, I remember one of my teachers from world history, he started telling everyone in the class that I got a hundred, it was like a hundred questions. And it was one of the final tests and I got them all right and he was telling everybody, how come just me who doesn't speak ever in class and who's still learning English, has every question right and a lot of you know the language and you still don't get it? So that was like, okay, thank you. But also, that you don't have to, you know, showcase me in front of everyone. So, I think he was fun.
DV: He was proud.
YGR: He was proud. He was highlighting, how dare you not do well. [Laughter]. And Yazmin, you know, who you know--. Everyone knew I was still learning English. I was not comfortable speaking up. The classes where I did the best were, like math--. Because I feel when I came to the U.S. my math, my level of knowledge in math was more advanced than everyone else, so for two, three years I was just, you know, going with the flow. I was not learning something new. I knew all the concepts and I knew how to do it because back in Mexico there were no calculators. Here you were given a calculator, literally was in the desk. And so I just knew how to do everything without relying, you know, on a device
DV: Wow.
YGR: So those were the classes where I--. Strategically I think it was helpful because I had friends who were Latino who, they were not good at math, but they spoke English. And so, I would be like, let me show you and help you but you help me in other classes so that's how I navigated eighth and ninth grade, I think. Just kind of exchanging the skill sets because for a lot of eighth grade--. I don't know how I passed ninth grade because I honestly didn't know anything but math. Somehow I ended up in high school and that's where I really dedicated a lot of time to watching movies and trying to learn English and really pushing myself to understand even if I wasn't able to speak fluently. So high school was definitely fun. I mean, challenges, you know, that age, that time, it's hard, bullying and stuff like that, but I feel like for me I was really focused on just trying to understand and trying to learn and trying to do well. And I think it was around, probably eleventh grade when I started to be more conscious of the barriers that I was going to be confronted with. Because I knew I wanted to go to college, I didn't know that it was going to be hard in terms of my immigration status being one of those barriers. That's when I started to hear a lot about out-of-state tuition for public universities for people who didn't have documents, and also not being able to obtain my driver's license. I went to the driver's ed class and by the end when I got my certificate is when that changed in North Carolina.
DV: Oh wow.
YGR: So, I was not able to get my driver's ed even though I went to the course just because by the time I finished is when things shifted.
DV: The rules changed.
YGR: And then there were other, sort of, institutions of higher education that were switching their policies of who could come to school. And maybe you could register but if someone else wanted to be in the class you would be kicked out and you would still have to pay out-of-state tuition or you would just not be welcome. So it was a lot of just--. It was hard. It was just hard to kind of think about where would I go. And so, meeting my friend who went to Guilford sort of opened up that one opportunity for me to think about, you know, he did it, I'm going to do it too. And somehow I made it to Guilford College. There was a program there called Bonner Scholars Program that provided scholarship support for low-income students that were interested in doing service, community service and service learning.
DV: What was the name of the program?
YGR: Bonner Scholars Program. And it's a national program, but not every school has it. That program at Guilford at the time was a four-year program where you started as a freshman and took a class and did service hours during the semester, did internship experiences during the summer, and all as a part of a cohort with your class, but also connecting to other Bonners from other classes. And I think for me, thinking back, I mean I've been aware of this for a long time that I was definitely one of--. A fortunate student that got that opportunity because not many students like myself at the time and even still now were able to have that opportunity. I think it was a combination of knowing certain people, like the program, that I got admitted to the school, my grades I guess, but also my dad helped me a lot because he was in Mexico, and he would support me financially as much as he could to be able to pay tuition.
DV: Wow.
YGR: So, the difference was that if I was to go to a public institution, I would have paid out-of-state tuition that can be like two, three times as much as the regular tuition. In Guilford College, being a private school, you get charged the same. You might not get as much help, but at least it's not more money than what you know already that you're going to get charged. And with the scholarships, we were able to piece it together. And Guilford was definitely, again, one of those shaping experiences for me because since I got to the school, I had a group of people that came along that I know had shared values in a way or shared goals of giving back to the community. And it was really cool because it was people from all over the world, from all over the United States but also all over the world. And getting to see how we're different, but we have very similar experiences, was really nice. I remember one of the trips we took which was our first-year experience summer trip, and we went to a Native American reservation for a couple weeks. And so, at that point I was undocumented, so I didn't have a driver's license. I didn't have anything but my Mexican passport and so I called my dad, and I told him that there's this trip that falls in my birthday and that I wanted to go and that, you know, there were risks because I would be flying. And he told me do you want to go, and I said yes. He's like, well, do it. So, I went on that trip pretty nervous because, I mean, I had a little fear of what could happen but thankfully everything went well. And I spent two weeks in that reservation. Some of my peers, I had peers from like Kenya and peers from different parts of Middle Eastern just like Europe and then U.S. So it was really neat to be in that space and get to know even more, like a diverse group. And I remember they asked us if we wanted to stay at a cabin or in one of the teepees. And a lot of us being international, what you would consider an international student or not an American student, we were like, we're not sleeping in the teepee. It's like, we've been there, you know, we've been already in conditions that may not be the most desirable, so we're like, no.
DV: We want to be comfortable.
YGR: Yes, we want to be comfortable. And so that was really funny to see that you just share experiences or just thinking with other peers that were trying to be more comfortable, not suffer more than we need to.
DV: What was the destination?
YGR: That was Montana.
DV: Okay.
YGR: So we were in Montana in a Native American reservation. We arrived to Billings and then drove out and everyone there in that reservation was really nice to me and to another Mexican student because we look alike. When I got to the reservation I was like, oh, is this--. It looked like people could be, you know, I could have been in Mexico because we look alike. And so, I definitely saw that treatment in a better way towards us and we got to cook for them pozole, also tacos, tacos dorados with buffalo meat. It was an interesting mix and just a really cool experience, and all that to say that, that program really shaped me because it kind of got us out of our comfort zone, got us to learn a lot about other cultures and about ways of connecting because we're people and finding those commonalities. That week when we were there, we didn't know that Obama was going to be at the reservation.
DV: Oh wow
YGR: This was when he was running for his campaign, the first time. And there were no phones, no clocks, nothing. We were like no technology, no TV. We were disconnected in the reservation, and we were told one morning after breakfast, get ready, we're going to go to this event. So, we got ready and left and it was Obama who was visiting the reservation and that was really neat. One of those really cool experiences. And then get to see him, you know, actually become president--. But going back to Bonner Scholars Program and Guilford College, I was highly involved in different activities that related to the Latino community, more specifically Latino youth or Latino students. I ran an after-school tutoring program called Latino Impact, and we went to McLeansville to a middle school and did tutoring of students. So I would have volunteers come with me and we helped with their homework. It was sixth graders for the most part, sixth, seventh, eighth graders. And then once a year, I helped to co-found a conference for Latino students called Soy Un Lider. So my fall semester, my first fall semester at Guilford, we co-founded a conference with a friend that went to high school with me. He was a senior, I was a freshman, and so he had this idea and sort of brought me on board to help co-found this one-day conference. And then he graduated, and so I felt I needed to keep it going. And we brought--.We started by bringing 150 to 200 students. And then it just grew from there every fall. And they had the experience of visiting the college, eating in the cafeteria, going to workshops, and the whole point was sharing with them information, resources that would help them to get to college, and hopefully not struggle as much as we did in not knowing what was even available or what options we had, and that was very geared towards undocumented and first-generation Latino students. And those experiences I feel like, it really gave me the ability to think through what is in our reach to push for change, what resources we have, and make the most with what you have. Because we were just, you know, college students. We would visit high schools and just talk to the administration and be like, we want to invite students. So little by little, we grew those relationships. We got school systems to provide their bus, the transportation for students to get to the conference. It was on a Saturday. We got funding from the school to pay for the breakfast and to give them gear, so it was just really cool to kind of give back in that sense. Even if it was one day, even if it was, you know, just a tiny piece of information. It was nice to see that hopefully they will hear something today that will have an impact in them. And I think for me the most favorite memory of that conference every year was coming into the cafeteria when they were eating lunch and just to see how many Latinos were in that space. And to see other students from campus walking in and just being like, who are these people? This is not the norm, right? A lot of us were one student who identifies Latino in the classroom; and so to be able to have that many people on campus and to see themselves there, but also to see other people acknowledge their presence, those are the moments that I live for in a way.
DV: So, you started it with your friend freshman year and then you continued it, until?
YGR: I continued every year until I graduated and it's still happening.
DV: Wow.
YGR: Like everything that, you know, they have up and downs in terms of leadership and support from school with administration change. And so that results in more resources or less resources that go into the conference, but it's still happening.
DV: That’s great.
YGR: And that just, you know, sort of uplifts my spirit because I know that at that moment we were focused on the Latino students. There are other students who also need that same support, like international students, refugees, asylees. And Greensboro has a large population of--. A really diverse population. So they also broadened a little bit the confidence to make sure that they were doing outreach to those students as well. So it is still happening, and it is one of those things that keeps me really close with the school, knowing that even after 10 plus years, it is still a need and there's still people who are willing to do that work. And other couple things that Guilford was, at that moment, the Latino club on campus was Hispanos Unidos de Guilford. And, you know, there's different ways that people identify themselves, so I use Latino a lot, Latina, Latinx, Hispanic. At that moment in time, from 2007 to 2011, Hispanic was the word that most people used. So, the club was Hispanos Unidos de Guilford. And we did a lot of activities throughout the year, celebrated Farm Work Awareness Week, celebrated Hispanic Heritage Month. I also was seen as an international student to Guilford because of my application. So I also did a little bit of the international club. So, I don't know, it felt like it was a small campus and had a lot of resources. And it gave me the ability to do different things and connect with different groups of students and bring them all together in a way. And so that was inspiring for me to see that, okay, people follow me. For some reason, people volunteer to help me. And it's what we need, right? We need groups of people who are excited about something. And for me, that was really energizing. And that conference, the Soy Un Lider Conference, is like I'm a leader. And sometimes, a lot of times, even students, even adults, we doubt ourselves of our abilities to do something. And I think for me, that learning lesson there was like, you might be the one leading or pushing but you need a group of people because one person cannot do it alone. And in leadership also looks different in a way. I might be a quiet leader right, but you can still do things in front of people, behind the scenes. So that's something that I really learned at that moment, and I try to remind myself because sometimes it's still hard. You know, imposter syndrome comes back, and you try to question, am I in the right place? Do I belong? Can I do this? So just thinking about that younger Yazmin who was able to do something, and people believed. And it had an impact. It helps me to move through. And you asked about internships.
DV: Right.
YGR: I did two internships that I recall more clearly. My first internship was at Student Action with Farmworkers and that was, again, an internship that my friend did. So, I was like he did it I'm going to go and do it. And he was--.
DV: The same friend?
YGR: Same friend
DV: Wow
YGR: Same friend. And so, he told me about the internship. As a Bonner Scholar, we were supposed to do an internship. And so, I worked in a clinic of Piedmont Health Services in Prospect Hill as a farm worker, outreach worker, doing outreach to farm worker camps. And so, we visited farms or like camps, we call it camps, which is the housing where farm workers live. It might be a trailer; it might be a big building that looks like a warehouse. And it can vary from like 3, 4, 5, 10 farm workers to like 150 or more farm workers. A lot of them come from Mexico and through the H-2A visa , and work in the fields for a time frame and go back home. And so, we would bring to them information around health, health education, we would take their blood pressure and talk to them about diabetes. And just trying to provide information and resources to them, connect them to the clinic if they needed an appointment, if they needed medicine. And that really, that internship is something that I feel really shaped me again because even if I grew up in Alamance County, I had no idea that just 40, 20, 30 minutes away there are farms and there's farm workers. And that a lot of them are actually from my home country and that looked like they could have been my dad, my grandpa, my granddad, or one of my siblings, or someone I know. And just to see the disparity in terms of access to healthcare, resources, and a lot of injustices that may happen because of their job. The different power dynamics that come into play. And that really got me into the sort of farm worker justice movement here
DV: It galvanized you.
YGR: Yes. In North Carolina.
DV: So this internship is happening while you're in college?
YGR: Summer yeah, a whole summer. So, during college I was doing the tutoring, I was doing the club on campus, and I was doing also the conference once a year. During the summer we had an internship, and it was--. This first one was a Student Action with Farmworkers, and this summer internship is called Into the Fields. And so it brings students from North Carolina and farmworker students from other parts of the country like Idaho, California, Texas, where there's other farm worker populations that at that time were bigger, and that--. Either it could be children of farm workers or even children that worked as farm workers at some point. So it was a really cool space because a lot of--. To be part of the internship, you had to speak Spanish. And so even those that were not Latino, like they spoke Spanish and liked the culture, and it was like a cohort, you know. Sort of a program where there's retreats, there's trainings, there is just different types of activities that help you feel more comfortable with who you are. And I think one of the things for me, too, is I didn't have a problem with being who I am because that's who I am. I grew up in Mexico, so I feel very grounded on my language and my culture, but I know other people who grow up here sometimes have a challenge because it's like, at home it's one culture and outside it's another culture so you're trying to grapple with who you are and what's okay because of the pressure. So I really got to see other students who were at the beginning a little shy to speak Spanish, or a little shy to say where they were coming from, or a little shy to dance, you know, bachata salsa whatever and then by the end they were this is who I am and like--.
DV: Embracing it.
YGR: Yeah, embracing their culture. So I loved being part of that experience and to also learn it's okay to be who I am in terms of the context of being an immigrant and having you know English as my second language, having an accent, like those things I think that those were the things that I got from the experience as well. And that having this bicultural, bilingual experience and a skill set also can contribute in different ways in the workplace, because at the end of the day we were increasing capacity for organizations that were doing this outreach. And this was at the time where there were no smartphones, so we would do outreach based on a map. We would pull a big map and then try to find the street where the camp was and then drive around the country and then try to figure out where this house is. And there would be notes like, you know, look at the tree in this intersection. A lot of farmworker housing is not like a regular housing that you can see from the road. It might be a dirt road that you have to go. And then, you know, it's kind of hidden from communities. So it's really crazy to think now that we just put something on the GPS, and it tells us, sometimes even shows you a picture of what it looks like, but back in the day, it was really pairing up with one more student, intern, or the supervisor and driving with them and figure out where the housing was. So I learned a lot and got to network a lot through that internship. I feel that led me to my second internship the following summer, which was at American Friends Service Committee, AFSC, which is a Quaker organization. And at the time it was based in Greensboro. And the director at the time of the immigrant rights program, she was also SAFista. And we call SAFista anyone who has done any SAF program, any Student Action with Farmworkers program. So she was a SAFista from back in the day, leading this program in immigrant rights and I applied for an internship there and got to learn more about the immigrant rights space like the advocacy happening at the time in general, advocacy for issues that we still face today like immigration reform, humane immigration reform, driver's license, tuition equity, all those issues that are still present. And I got to learn and be in the space and support those efforts during that summer. And that person, that director, really became one of the people, too, that became part of my support system. And I think that is what I'm really grateful for; that all throughout my journey I have found those people. Like I mentioned in high school, teachers, in my internships and in the different spaces that I was part of finding people that are going to be there for you no matter, you know, how you move in life through other spaces. She's been one of those people that has been job references for me, you know, one of those people that I call and try to ask at different points for her thoughts and feedback and that got to know me more during that time of my life. So those are the main internships that I think really took me in terms of helping me to develop my resume per se. So, by the time that I graduated, I had a lot of things. Like, I was, not just--.
DV: You were just busy.
YGR: I was busy, not just participating, but I was leading on campus and also participating in the internships. And I think that I'm grateful for that. I don't regret it. But looking back, I know that I was overcommitted. And I guess the weight that I was carrying, it was like, if I don't do it, who will do it because there were not a lot of Latino students on campus at the time. It was only a few of us. It was like three Mexican students, different classes, you know, Puerto Ricans, a couple. Some people that were adopted from Latin America and were trying to connect with their, you know, culture of the country where they were born, but there were not a lot of Latino students, so it just felt like I was trying to do it all.
DV: You felt like it was your responsibility, then?
YGR: Yes, yes, because I knew, and I was very aware that a lot of students that went to high school with me didn't make it to college. And it wasn't because they didn't want to, it was because it was not easy, or it was because they were discouraged very early on because they were told there is not going to be a way for you to do it even if you have documents. That's what really is really crazy, and I know it's still happening. If your family hasn't gone through higher ed, and if you're a person of color, if you're Latino, if you're a child of immigrants, a lot of times this system and people around it still kind of, don't see that in you or don't encourage that in you. Or even worse, like discourage you and tell you that's not an option. I know, I went to my counselor in high school, and they didn't know how to help me. There's no supports in many places still, or not enough for students. So, I definitely felt like I wanted to give back and that's why Soy Un Lider Conference focused on Alamance County, Guilford County, and Forsyth because it was sort of my hometown and surrounding counties where the conference took place. And that really sort of pushed me to do so much, which I think helped me in my professional sort of career path. But my senior year was really stressful because I was trying to graduate, fulfill my requirements. I was a business--. I was a French and business, sort of French major. Business was supposed to be my second major, but I ended up having to graduate. I think I ended up graduating with two minors in business and one more thing I don't even remember, oh my gosh. I had completed three minors, but they don't let you graduate with three minors. I had major in French and three minors in business related but I had to pick two, so I think it was business and business law. And the reason was, I was short one class to finish my major in business. But at that point I was like, I'm done, I don't need to, I didn't have the money, I didn't have the energy to come back and finish one more class to complete that business double, to have a double major. So, I was like, I'll just graduate. And I think it was just, I was so over committed and tired because I was also, towards the end, I tried to find ways to work to earn a little money so that I could still sort of be okay, because every year tuition goes up. And so, by the time I started I think it was like 10K a semester, no, 15K a semester. By the time I finished, it was way higher than that. So it was a lot of, sort of, pressure, and I was just ready to graduate. When I graduated I was still undocumented, so that year was hard, 2011 to 2012, because I had a degree and it was sort of--. I found myself in a place where a lot of people had sort of questioned, before, what are you going to do when you graduate and you still don't have documents to work. I heard that a lot during my time in college and that was hard because it's like you want to be motivated, you want to keep pushing, you want to show that you're doing the most with the opportunity, but that’s a real question that I tried to ignore because I didn't want to lose sight of my goal which was to graduate. And it was hard to kind of keep going that year just trying to figure out what am I going to do, and I knew that maybe I needed to go back to Mexico if I couldn't work here. And that's why I was going for business and French in college, because I wanted something that could maybe help me if I had to go back to my home country or end up going to a different country. I couldn't graduate with anthropology or sociology because my family would have been like what are you going to do with that, you know. What do you do with that degree in another country like Mexico. So, it was 2012, the summer of 2012 when President Obama announced the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals and that was the light that I was waiting for. That was the moment that I was preparing for. And so, I didn't doubt enrolling into the program as soon as it was an option. I remember I heard about it, I was so excited, started putting all my documents together, thinking through what they would be asking for. And as soon as the day came to be able to apply and submit an application, I was one of those first ones that I know of in my circle of friends. And I know a lot of people were fearful because, I mean, you know we don't trust the government a lot of times for various reasons, and so people were really fearful of coming forward. And then you know not knowing what really could happen once you did that. But I just felt like what am I going to lose, I don't have anything to loose. And so I applied, and I was going through that process, waiting to hear back, going to do my biometrics, my fingerprints and all that. And then I saw this job that opened up at the Student Action with Farmworkers, which was the first internship, the first organization that I interned for. And so, I was like, I'm going to apply. And so, I applied, and the position was National Organizer. And so I was going through the application process and waiting to hear back about DACA. And I went to two or three interviews, and I got a call on a Friday saying that I got the job and I was so happy. And I wanted to say yes but I still didn't have my work permit, so I asked for a couple days to think about it but I know I didn't have anything to think about. I wanted a job. I just wasn't ready.
DV: Were you giving yourself time to get those permits, maybe?
YGR: Yeah. And so, in that call I was like, oh yes, can I think about it and get back to you next week? And that weekend I got my work permit. It just felt like it was meant to be and everything lined up. So I got my work permit, I started working that December at Student Action with Farmworkers leading up to 2013. And that really opened up the doors for me in so many ways. Having DACA, being able to use--. Because a lot of jobs they don't ask you--. I mean they say preference in a degree on this, right? But they're looking at the education level, like bachelor's degree, master's degree, or whatever. And so, I had the degree, I had the experience, and I wanted to be able to do something, get a job that I was passionate about. And so DACA opened up that for me. And this organization means a lot to me because it was the first organization that opened the doors to give me an internship knowing my situation. Because I've always been pretty open about, you know, my situation and who I am, so it meant a lot for me that that was my first job. And I was there for about three, four years working in different roles as a national organizer, coordinating National Farmworker Awareness Week, doing a lot of the alumni engagement. Later became director of the youth program, so working with youth, farmworker youth, and really networking and connecting and supporting a lot of that farmworker advocacy movement in the state to improve the working and living conditions of the population. And during that time, it was towards my last year and a half working there, that I realized that I wanted to go back to school. And it was a combination of, started looking at people around me. Well, I knew I wanted to go back to school, but I didn't know for what. Because at that point, I only knew my one friend. [Laughter]. Going back to my one friend that had gone to Guilford from my high school, he went and did his MBA. And so, I knew that there was Master’s in business administration, but I was like, ah, I knew I did business in college, but that's not where my heart is. And so that was not what I wanted to do. I didn't know many people personally, you know friends, close friends or family that had a Master’s, but I started looking at everyone around me and trying to figure out what their degree was. People that I looked up to in the work. This was before LinkedIn. You couldn't just you know figure out what people's journey was. I started meeting with people for coffee. I ended up meeting with 15 or more social workers. And they were all doing different work, in farmworker-related, immigrant rights-related, just different type of work. And I was like, I want to be a social worker, because they're all doing work that I would love to be able to do, positions that I would love to have. And that's one of the reasons why I chose social work. And the other one is because I was working with the farmworker youth, and it was really working with them, their families, their siblings, their networks, because they would connect. They would know that there was a need, and they would refer people to me to try to find support and resources for them or just hear them out. And a lot of those concerns and just things that people were going through were really heavy and I didn't know how to deal with that. I couldn't go home and not think about it, or I couldn't get frustrated that there was nothing else that could be done to help them and so I knew that social work would give me a little bit more of that training on to figure out how you even help, and how do you respond, what's your role. How to push systems and how to continue to advocate for people in different ways, and that's when I ended up going to the school social work at UNC. That was a whole different journey. A whole different journey because I had been out of school for years. I still, I was DACAmented, as they say, and still had to pay out-of-state tuition if I wanted to go back to school. And it felt selfish to want to go back to school when there were a lot of people still that hadn't had the opportunity to even go to a community college or a college or university for a four-year degree, and I wanted more. So that kind of, I think I put those ideas on myself but it was just hard to kind of want more. And it was my support system, it was people around me that encouraged me to not give up and to find a way. And I met--. I had someone on Facebook that I thought it was the Facebook of this person that worked in the same building as me, and I did a lot of presentations and supported a class that happened for university students. So my support was really around farmworker information, presentations, and farmworker education for those students. So I had this person on Facebook, I thought it was this professor, but it really was that he shared that Facebook page with his wife. So it was the kids' Facebook page, and they both used it. They shared pictures of their children. So I posted something that like--. He knew that I wanted to go to school. I posted that I was trying to go to school, trying to find resources, scholarships and all that. And he connected me with his wife and said: I think you really want to talk to my wife, you should meet. She's also a social worker. And she wants to help you. And I didn't know that this whole time she had been--. She knew who I was because of Facebook, and so I met with her a weekend in this office, in her office, and we came up with a plan on how I was going to be able to go to grad school.
DV: Wow.
YGR: Like, who I needed to reach out to at the school, how I was going to try to pull in enough funding. And I walked away from her office with this big sheet of paper with everything on it and I really went on that path. I ended up having to fundraise for my education because there were not many scholarships for students like me. The ones that were available I applied out of the school, and I didn't get those. Very competitive national scholarships. And people like her and others connected me with people at the School of Social Work. Everyone at the School of Social Work knew that I was coming, who I was. There had seen emails about me, people advocating for me to be thought of for a scholarship support. It could be a little embarrassing. [Laughter]. You know, because people were like, this is just me and this is everything she's done, and she would be amazing, and these are the challenges that she has. So I think for me the most difficult part was to try to fundraise. And the moments that really were like--. That brought me a lot of joy. And just what surprised me a lot is people that didn't know me that supported me. Like people in my network spoke highly of me to their network and I got checks from people that I had never met. And some people didn't want me--. They wanted to be anonymous, they didn't need me to contact them and thank them and I was like I want to thank you, I want to know who you are. And people from my community, people from the community where I grew up also supported that.
DV: In Mexico?
YGR: Here.
DV: Oh, here.
YGR: Here in Alamance County. And so, to me it meant people believe in me, people are cheering for me, supporting me. And so I just went all in and fundraised for my whole grad school cost, and went into grad school trying to be the best student ever. Like read everything and do everything. I got to be an RA all throughout both years and the summer and learn from different professors. It was really one of those, again, life-changing experiences, because I never thought I would be able to be there. Even with DACA, even with a driver's license and a social security number, it's still a place that is not that accessible to DACAmented and undocumented students. So it felt surreal. And also hard because you're one of a few Latino students. There was, not that I knew of, any other student that was in the same situation that I was. And it's an institution at the end of the day, so there's things that could be better. We're always, as students, we're always challenging the system. We're always questioning, especially at the School of Social Work where in the code of ethics it's like social justice is one of those things that, you know, we care about. So it was interesting because I was sort of part of the advocacy but also working for professors and being an RA for the assistant dean, and you know. [Laughter]. Pushing here, but also this is my research assistantship and this is how I'm able to be in school. Because I was working for the school so that they could help me with my tuition, with part of the tuition, at least not pay out-of-state tuition, but pay it sort of the mid-level point through the funding that the research assistantship came with. So it was an incredible experience and I was able to do a couple internships there at the Hispanic Family Center through Catholic Charities in Raleigh. And then my final internship was an internship that I found on my own. It wasn't one listed. The list of internships, there was nothing that really spoke to me. And so I went to try to find an organization that had a social worker that could supervise me and that had the work that I wanted to do. And so I reached out to the American Civil Liberties Union who had two social workers. I knew one of them and I ended up being an intern there. And that's when DACA was rescinded. So it was when the Trump administration was trying to get rid of DACA and it was very fearful because DACA is what had opened the doors for me, it was the way that I could work for the school and finish grad school. And so I was in the middle trying to keep organizations informed, like support on that end, trying to support the advocacy efforts and be part of that work again, now as a grad student. Very nerve-wracking too because I felt like, I don't know, I just--. You just put ideas on yourself. I was--. The expectations are high on how I'm supposed to, you know, do the work because now I'm in grad school. I just felt it was I have to do my best and even better than, you know, two years ago because I'm a grad student and I put a lot of pressure on myself at that time. And I was able graduate from the School of Social Work and land on my first job. I applied for different things that felt sort of comparable, like going back to the farmworker space. I tried to get into philanthropy which didn't work at the time. I was seen as very young, not a lot of experience on that sort of area. And then I ended up being sort of recruited or encouraged to apply for a position at the hospital in town. And it was working under the supervision of the person that was really crucial in helping me come up with a plan on how I was going to get to grad school. That woman that I mentioned that brought me to her office, that I knew her husband, and so also social worker. And I ended up applying for jobs. I got a job in farmworker health and I declined that job and ended up coming to work for the hospital. And I actually, I don't know, it's full circle in a way because I got to work in the community where I grew up, got to learn, got to meet more people. And understand the dynamics that happen in the county between non-profits, hospital, health department, things that work, things that could be better, contributing in the ways that I could to make spaces more welcoming of Latinos. Or try to bring a little bit more awareness of why you might not be seeing Latinos and how you could improve in your outreach. And having the supervisor I had was an amazing experience because she was a leader that tried to uplift and to give you the tools you needed to do what needed to be done. And it was a little crazy when she said that she wasn't in the office much because she was covering a broader region and that she was going to give me her office. And I was like, what?! The office where I first met her to come up with a plan on how I was going to get to grad school. That's what it meant to me. I was like, the office with three windows, I'm getting that office? So that just felt like, oh my god, full circle. I can't believe that two years ago, two and a half years ago, I was sitting in this office not knowing that I was going to be able to go to grad school and not knowing that I was going to be able to, you know, move on in my career thanks to having a master's degree.
DV: Wow.
YGR: And that work in the hospital was really rewarding, was really hard, too, because it was coming--. It was putting me out of my comfort zone not being in the immigrant rights space, farmworker advocacy space where everyone is aware of the community needs or trying to serve or have that shared goal. It was more of just different people, right, with different jobs, serving the broader community, very mainstream in a way, where there were little to no Latinos in the spaces where I was moving. And so that was hard to navigate, but also rewarding to see little by little sort of the impact of just my presence or a comment or a question or my--. Or giving input. We were able to do a lot of programming to grow the programming for the Latino population in Alamance County, connect people to resources that were available for free or little cost like mammogram, you know, just information on pre-diabetes, like connecting people to different resources. And that's when the pandemic hit. And that's when we all shut down in terms of showing up to the office. And my supervisor being very supportive allowed me to do the work that I thought was needed, which was to support with basic needs to the community because people were staying home, losing their jobs or not being able to work, like not having food. It was just really like a chaos. And so I worked closely with the Dream Center in Burlington. Past Lisa had this idea of doing a food giveaway and trying to find meals and give it out to the community. And it was literally her family, my husband and I, and one more couple on the first day. And they bought food, they found funding, and I came up with ways to improve our system. I supported that day. We had cars coming through one end of the building going all around and we had a tent we were giving out the food it was very, like, the first day was a mess. It was good but it was like we were just trying to improve, and we served, I don't know if the first day we served like 120 families. I don't know, a crazy number of just cars that came by and we just gave them food and you know trying to have PPE on us and protect ourselves and protect others but give food. And that just grew and grew and grew and every week we were giving more and more food. So many people came along to help after that first day, we had nonprofits showing up, Elon University leadership, people from the city of Burlington, the mayor was out there, former mayor was there giving out food. And just different people came and helped and it just grew from giving this full menu that people can choose from American and Latino food and diapers and fruit and getting donations and giving out masks and giving out, you know, what we could. And it was definitely like--. Thursday was the day where even people that didn't know what was going on they would see the lines of cars and would come and get in line. They were like we don't know what's happening, but everybody's coming so we want to come and see. And it had a huge impact on nonprofits and organizations who had heard about Latinos, who had heard about the Dream Center, but really didn't come close yet, so they got to see the community and that was impactful too because a lot of times people may ask where are the Latinos, right? They're not coming, and we're here, we're part of the community. They're just busy working jobs that sometimes are not visible and they're keeping to themselves because it's what's comfortable and it's what feels safe. And the Dream Center became that sort of place that a lot of people start to recognize the habit trust in the community that was in the, in the part of town where we needed resources the most. And so, it was really neat to be able to give back during those times that were really difficult. That was before testing. Then testing came around and we coordinated, I helped to coordinate in the county different places for testing. We were going to the places in the community where we could see the higher rates or where we wouldn't, we didn't see rates because we also thought people were not being tested there. In rural parts of the county, different parts of the county, and it was free testing for anyone that wanted it in a drive-thru sort of way in collaboration with the health department. And so I was in that time when I got a call that my dad was feeling, was ill, was not doing well in Mexico, and had to go back to Mexico. And he had gotten COVID, it was July, and he didn't make it. So that was really hard because I was here, you know in the response and trying to provide what I could to the community and then my dad was home, not feeling well, not telling us for some days because, my dad. And I got to Mexico and by the time I got there he was at a hospital, and I was not able to go in. I was not able to see him. And that just was so hard for my family and for myself. And a lot to kind of deal with and process in that sort of very scary way of you not being able to be there for your loved one, you not being able to even do the proper traditional way of a funeral. Or doing the things that we usually would do for the people we love. And so that 2020 was definitely a rough year for me and then coming back to--. Having to come back and go back to work and still processing that for a long time. And my husband was running for office, too, at that time, so it was a lot to kind of grieve for my dad, be strong for family, and support my husband as he was running his first campaign for office. And that fall is when, I was supposed to become a citizen in March, but it happened that the pandemic got here and everything got shut down, so it got pushed to October, and I was able to become a citizen in October. And that was sort of, one of the first sort of big painful moments because it was one of the first few life milestones that I wasn't able to call my dad and tell him. And I remember that being really hard just because it's a moment that I should be happy but it was, you know--. When he, when someone you love is no longer a part of your life, it's really hard to kind of figure out the thing that I would do is not something that I can do anymore. But I guess the little happiness or the little sort of moment that brought comfort was knowing that, I feel like I know that he's with me, you know, in different ways now and that he would be happy for me. And also, that same day, because of the pandemic, it was very weird citizenship ceremony where it was three of us in this huge room and nobody else could come into the building. They asked the questions. They did my interview, my final interview, and then right away put us in this room for the oath. So I did everything in one day instead of doing two parts as usually the process would be, and then I got out of there and drove directly to early voting. It was the last day of early voting, and so I registered to vote during early voting before it closed, and I voted for my husband. And I was like, I cannot believe that this is happening and then drive straight to the library to request my passport because I was like, there's no going back, they can't take this away from me. I'm going to do everything I need to do--.
DV: Yeah, you made it.
YGR: To get this, you know, to get to this point. So it was a full day of, you know, just--. I feel like I was running, before anybody changed their mind, to do what I needed to do. So 2020 was definitely bittersweet in many ways, for many of us, but definitely very high highs and very low lows. And then that fall I got a call from a friend that said, do you want to do the work that you're doing at the county level but at the state? And I was like, no, I got enough with my county. There's plenty of work to do here and I'm doing all I can. And I was like, still doing the work with the hospital, canvassing. Well we were starting to do lid drops, not canvassing, that fall, and just juggling everything and grieving. And it was probably a month later that I saw the job description for the job that I have now and I fell in love with it because it was the focus on the Latino community, it was really working at a systems level. It felt that every part of my journey was leading me to this job, from a personal, to a professional, to an educational experience. And so, I put my name in the hat. I applied, went through three interviews and was waiting to hear back and left to Mexico to see family. It was probably between November and December. I think it was like November, December.
DV: Still 2020?
YGR: In 2020. November December of 2020. I applied around September, October and then it was November, December, I was in Mexico riding a taxi with my husband. An old taxi, it was an old car, you could hear the engine, one of those cars. And so, I got a call from who would be my supervisor and I was in this car and the engine you could hear the eeeeh, and I was like this is embarrassing but I have to talk to her. So my husband try to tell the taxi driver to pull to the side because literally the sound was horrible and so he pulled over. And then she gave me the job offer and she said that, you know, congratulations you got the job. Gave me a little bit of information and said that I could review the documents that were coming to my email and then get back to them. And so that moment is very memorable because I was in Mexico, you know, the place where I was born, the city where I was born. And then getting to--. I'm getting to hear that I got a job working in the government in this place that I went to for better life and better opportunities, in a taxi with this horrible noise. And so that was really the moment that, you know, sort of shaped what was to come for the next two-plus years now. Came back, started working in January and it was really hard for many months working about 15 hours every day non-stop, no weekends, no evenings. Really being part of that early, since the very early stage of vaccine distribution, COVID-19 vaccine distribution in the state and prevention work. And having the weight of knowing that the Latino population was disproportionately impacted by COVID, and knowing that farmworkers were impacted, that meat-processing plant workers were impacted, just frontline workers who for the most part were Latino, were impacted and trying to do all I could to be part of that response. So it was a lot.
DV: What had happened with your dad, did you have that in your mind also when you went through that work?
YGR: Yes, yes and I was trying, you know, had a lot of--. I did seek therapy that didn't work. Didn't work, the therapist that I found was not a good fit and I was like, I'm wasting my time and I didn't have time to look for another therapist, but I had friends and people that were there for me. I know that it's hard, when you have a friend that is going through that you sometimes don't know how to act, you don't know what to say, you don't know how to support. But I did have people that were there for me and talked to me, you know, said: why are you doing this? Are you doing this for your dad? Also, don't feel like you have to sacrifice or like--. Not sacrifice yourself, but put yourself in a place where it's also painful because it's a reminder, right? And so I thought it through, and I know that part of me was trying to prevent the suffering of other families, and I do all I can to be part of that response because I know it was real. A lot of people were like, COVID is not real. And I was like, COVID is real. COVID is the reason why my dad is no longer here. And I think for me it was a part of giving back and trying to alleviate the situation as much as possible, or contribute to or control the pandemic, or prevent the spread. But also because I think this is my life's work. I never think about, in my path, in my career, it's never been about a position and a title, it's been about the work. What about this role will speak to me and will make a difference to the community that I care about? And that is sort of what drives me. And that's what really drove me to this job, looking at the job description and the possibilities, knowing that it was going to be really, really hard, knowing that I was going to end up working within an institution that was being held accountable by the advocacy groups that I was part of in previous roles. So it was a lot of--. It was really hard emotionally to navigate that because now I'm part of the system, right? And so being that bridge builder but also at times taking it all, and trying to help with solutions. But at the end of the day, now I'm the face or I became the face during those moments of what was not right, or what could be better and needed to be better with the same people that I was colleagues, you know, for a long time in the movement. So that was a hard shift and trying to--. I knew that I am here to improve the strategies, the initiatives, to make sure that we have a lens of the community, to look at policies and interventions and ways that we can be better. In that moment, it was specific to COVID-19, but also kind of showing people, feeling that I had to show people that I'm still me and I'm still here for the right reasons, even though I'm not part of the outside advocacy. So that was shift, it was the first time that I found myself in that sort of dynamic scenario. And it's been a really rewarding experience. It's been hard. It's been an adjustment, learning how government works. And it's also, for me, I'm really grateful to have been part of that team that was part of COVID-19 response at the state level because I saw that everybody was working nonstop and giving their all. And they had been there since the beginning, like the prior year when I was at the county level. So, the county-level work was hard physically because we were doing the food distribution, mentally, emotionally, but it was not the level of pressure at the state that I came to in 2021, and that I had to kind of, to do that work. And I think the other thing that has been rewarding there is to try to shape my job because it was the first time that this position was created, so there was not before anybody in this role. So try to establish myself and show people that I'm about collaboration, I'm about improving the work together. It is a system, it's huge. There's different things that could be better and trying to focus on what can we actually accomplish in the time that we have. And also I've gotten to work with students who are getting their Master’s of Social Work so now I get to, by this point I've had three students, supervised three students, that are becoming social workers who are Latina, who are bicultural with different life experiences, who have been in North Carolina, either were born here, grew up here, have been here for some time. And so that feels to me that is a part--. I've identified that that is a part that is important to me. Even if it's middle school, which is our ( ) age, high school, youth, just making sure that we're still working on that pipeline. Because this work is hard, and we need more people. I don't know why I'm getting emotional.
DV: It's okay.
YGR: I think it's--. What feels heavy a lot of times is that one person cannot change everything and many people are that one person in their space. And it's not fair to them, to the community, to the people. That we need more representation and I think that's what this pandemic really--. I hope that it's the lesson learned for everyone around that we can't wait for a global pandemic to realize that we're not representing the communities that we serve, that we don't have that representation for many systematic reasons, but also it's not the fault of people. From the education system to immigration system, to different systems at play that are not letting people move on to opportunities and be in those spaces. And from policies and practices that come into play, you know, who is being hired, who's given a chance, who's given a scholarship, looking at population, like do we have enough people at the table to be part of the solutions, to serve, so that people feel comfortable. I think that is the work ahead of ourselves. Right now, as we're coming out of this pandemic and everything is kind of going back to normal: not losing sight of what we learned, what was hard, and what we need to continue to implement that was done during COVID in, some shape or form, and continue to make it better. So I think that's what's on my mind a lot these days. Because I tell people, I did feel the pressure of people saying, oh you're the Latina doing all this work, but I'm like, I don't speak for all the Latino population. The Latino population is not monolithic. It's very diverse in so many ways. And I bring perspectives, I bring information, I bring research, I inform. And also, it should be more than one person. All throughout organizations, it should be that way, that people are either aware, knowledgeable, or they are representing the demographics that North Carolina is now. Because it's not like when I first went to high school, that I was the only Latina, you know, in my classroom. Now looking at Alamance County and seeing different schools that have sometimes even 40% Latino, and I could not dream of that when I was growing up. That was something that I didn't experience, right? So we need to make sure that we are setting those infrastructures in place to support the population, especially because--. I mean, I think North Carolina has grew a lot over the last 20 years in terms of demographics in the Latino population and our Latino population right now is still relatively young, but we're going to age and those systems need to be in place to be able to support the community. And so, this pandemic could have been worse in terms of death rates if we had been an older population. And we're not done confronting health disparities, chronic illnesses and everything that's to come.
DV: So that's what's on your mind for now in your current role?
YGR: Yes.
DV: So, considering all of these experiences, Yazmin, what would you say were the main factors that helped you along the way, that shaped the leadership that you have exhibited and continue to exhibit in your role?
YGR: I would say, I don't know. This is a hard one because I think there's definitely people, there's things that I've mentioned, like the people that have been part of my support system. The opportunities that I got that I know that not many people in my time, that share similar experiences, had. I think that, I don't know the word in English, sometimes this one goes away, but like, soy necia. I get into an idea, like I get like--. I think about this is what I want to do, and I just go for it. No matter if people are telling me, you're crazy, that's not doable, why, that's too much this, too much that, I just focus and go and do it. And in a way, I think it can be bad in different ways, you know. But in this case, just setting my mind to something has helped me, even when things were hard. And really having that support system: being family, being friends, being my husband, who believe in me and continue to encourage me and push me to do what I need to do, has been important. And we all have, you know, ups and downs, like there's definitely times and days where it's hard and I think about the why, right? I think about how I started, where I am, where were the possibilities. Knowing that the possibilities are endless, and we just have to keep pushing and that's something that I tell other young people. You never know, you can't just give up because you never know the opportunities that will come later and that's what happened for me. I went to school, to college not knowing that DACA was going to be a thing. And then I got DACA and then I pushed to try to go to grad school not knowing that I was actually going to be able to finish. And I never thought I would be able to become a citizen so you never know the path but you only do, you can only do what's in your control and that's what sort of keeps pushing me. I'm not able to fix everything but what's in my reach, I'll try to do. And it's the people that I've had, the motivation, the sacrifices of my family like my grandparents. For many, many years, my grandparents were in my mind a lot because I know sort of the challenges that they faced, the humble beginnings that they had, how they did all they could for their children. Now, with everything that I've gone through, my dad is on my mind a lot because I know how hard he worked, how much he supported me, how much he cared. His own way he showed us that he loved us. He was not very--.
DV: Affectionate.
YGR: Affectionate, but he showed us in his own ways, and he worked really hard. He was well respected in his job. Dedicated. For him, his job was like life, which sometimes can be bad, and I try to walk myself back when I am getting to that sort of mindset. There's more to life than just work. There’re other things. But I think for me, my job is also sort of my way of being a productive member of society and giving back and making--. Doing my best to make things a little better if even if it's in a small way. That's what sort of drives me. People that I love that I look up to or that were an important part of my life, and of course my mother, who is, who has been an amazing force for me. Yeah, just like thinking about people who have been there for me and what I can do for others. I think that's sort of what has helped me along the way. And I do want to believe that there's a God that has looked out for me because I would not be here in many ways. Just being an immigrant, you know, going through different experiences, something could have happened to me at different parts of my life to derail me from the path. Or to not even be alive, you know. Different kinds of ways. So, I am definitely grateful for that. And what motivates me a lot too, is that I'm not the only one. This is my story and is unique. But there's many stories like mine, and now we're getting to see more and more and more of that. And that really motivates me because during the time that I was sort of growing up and going to college and stuff like that, people would not talk about their experience or they would protect it, which it's so understandable. But now we have more and more people talking about it, bringing awareness, and pushing and advocating, and we're still in the same spot. DACA has been challenged. You know, new people, people who are coming of age cannot apply for DACA even if they qualify. There are no new applications that are being received. So we're not in a better place, even if many, many years have passed. Out of state tuition is still, you know, an issue. Access to driver's license for people is still an issue, immigration reform. So we are not where we need to be, but there's more people coming in and being part of that fight, and that is very motivating.
DV: Speaking of motivation and to conclude our interview, and you've already mentioned a little bit about future leaders, but thinking of all of your experiences, what advice would you give future Latino leaders so that perhaps you're not the only one in the space?
YGR: I think I would highlight unity and common goals. Like I mentioned, the Latino population, Latinx Hispanic population is very diverse in many ways. Immigration experience or, you know, maybe growing up here, generationally, too. We're so diverse. And I think what I would sort of highlight for leaders is the importance of working together and the importance of supporting each other and also the understanding that leadership looks different. And we need all kinds of leadership, and we need all kinds of strategies and advocacy, because I really see this as an ecosystem where different things are happening, and they build on each other and they help each other. And as the leadership grows and as the movement continues to, sort of, expand, I think as a community we got to work together and respect each other and make space for different voices. And I'm thinking very specific about the younger sort of age groups, that we all were young at one point, and we all thought that we could change the world at one point. And we need those mindsets because it is tiring. This journey is tiring. Someone texted me: the struggle is forever, after something happened and now it's like, yes, it's so real, the struggle is forever. We have to take care of each other. We have to take care of ourselves. We have to respect the different ways that people go about strategizing and, you know, fighting maybe within the system, maybe outside of the system, maybe in different ways, but we're not the enemy. Each other, we're not the enemy. We're just trying to move, work alone, and so I think it's important for us to keep that in mind and bring others along into the different spaces. If you have the opportunity to support other people, what better way than to, you know, take advantage of that? And also, if you have been in the space for a long time, hear from other voices and hear about what they're saying and make room in the space that you are to, like, have those people sit at the table. Because I feel that's something definitely that I have seen a lot in our state in terms of dynamics that happen, and that is not really doing us any good. It's actually taking away from the work that should be done. And just to not give up. I mean, I feel everyone's experience and everyone's journey is valid. We need to just sort of embrace each other. That is sort of what I feel I learned at Guilford when I was in the Hispanos Unidos de Guilford. We came together and we were all different, Latinos with different experiences from different walks of life, different countries, and just reassuring: yes, you are here, and you matter, and you are Latino no matter what. Who can, like, nobody can question that. No matter if you speak Spanish or not, no matter if you know how to salsa or not. There is no checklist of this is who you are as a Latino, and this is what makes you a leader. We all have different types of ways that we identify ourselves, different ways that we connect to our culture, different ways that we bring leadership to spaces. And I think because sometimes being the only one, or one of the only ones, that imposter syndrome can come, no matter how long you've been in the work, it’s really helpful when you have that support system and that little group or that person that understands you and supports you. And you can be that to someone else. And I think sharing our experiences and sharing the struggles can also help because you never know who can identify with you and who will hear that and make an impact. Just like my one friend [laughter] who I have followed all throughout. We're actually neighbors right now. We live really around the corner.
DV: Wow.
YGR: But one, one person--. I learned this recently. I spoke at a women's march when Women's March was a thing. I forgot what year, but I spoke at a women's march and there was someone in the audience that what I said resonated with her. Also undocumented, with similar experiences, trying to figure out how to make it to higher education. I was at grad school at the time. And recently she attended a conference and talked to someone else I know. And the question was, what was a time or who was someone that inspired you or something? And she talked about me, and she said, I went to these Women's March, and I heard this speaker that shared different things that I connected with, and that resonated with me. And my friend knew that I spoke to that, in that march, and so she was like, was this her? [Laughter]. And, and, you know, it's like, what?! That was years ago. And I was so scared to speak up and I was so scared to share my story. No matter how open I have been it's always, you know, nerve wracking in front of hundreds of people. And knowing that I said something that this young person was impacted by, and now she is incredible. She is an incredible advocate, doing a lot of advocacies and lobbying at the state level for immigrant rights. I'm inspired by her. But it's just funny to see how we have different points, and you never know when you say something, that person might be needing to hear those words. And she connected with that. So I wanted to cry when that was like, what? She, you know, Women's March--. And she's doing this incredible work and something I said inspired her to keep going. So I think that would be my one last sort of advice to others. You never know who you're impacting, so make sure that you're sharing your experiences with others.
DV: Well, thank you very much for sharing your journey and your story with us today. And your wisdom. Thank you very much.
YGR: Thank you.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Transcribers: Sofia Godoy & Daniel Velásquez
Interview Date: 2023 April 21
Date of Transcription: 2023 July 25. Revisions: 2023 31 August
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Title
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R-1011 -- García Rico, Yazmin.
Description
An account of the resource
Yazmin García Rico is Director of Latinx and Hispanic Policy and Strategy at the North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services (NC DHHS). She recounts her activism during her tenure in college, helping Latinx youth navigate college enrollment and her outreach efforts to connect farmworker communities with healthcare and other resources. Thanks to the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals policy, Yazmin was able to continue helping farmworkers after college in various positions, and also earn a Master’s degree in social work at UNC-Chapel Hill. Yazmin expresses deep regret at her father’s passing from COVID-19 at a time before vaccines or treatments were available. She subsequently joined NC DHHS in her current role to coordinate vaccine distributions and address disparities in the pandemic’s impact on the state’s Latinx population. Yazmin’s journey is marked both by her own determination and the determination of others in her network to help open doors for her. In that vein, Yazmin emphasizes the need for support systems that can help uplift Latinx youth and address underrepresentation across state leadership.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-04-21
Publisher
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29349">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
Format
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R1011_Audio.mp3
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/bfec35b216b000cd7d52a31e724f64fa.mp3
bc6b9c7e8251a976625c52bd328744db
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/f8a2af3012fa07d594b73fc86d54762b.pdf
5fa6ddb2a2a7eb07b101af321d8a67b8
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-1010
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
Fecha
2023-05-31
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Martí, Norma.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Health services administrators
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1953
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Mayagüez -- Puerto Rico
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Raleigh -- Wake County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-67.13953399658203 18.20108413696289),1953,1;POINT(-78.64305877685547 35.77839279174805),1955,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Velásquez, Daniel.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
At a young age, Norma Martí migrated with her family from Puerto Rico to a diverse, working-class neighborhood in northwestern Indiana, part of metropolitan Chicago. She shares her formative experiences there, what enabled her to attain a college education, and her encounters with discrimination in her first role as an educator. She subsequently worked for the Census Bureau in Illinois and the Research Triangle Institute (RTI) in North Carolina, enhancing both organizations’ reach of Latino communities. In the late 1990s, Norma decided to focus on advocacy and outreach as Development Director for El Pueblo, a nonprofit organization based in Raleigh. By the mid-2000s, in a new role as Minority Outreach Specialist for the North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services (NC DHHS), Norma leveraged the connections she had built with various Latino organizations to expand Medicaid and children’s health insurance in Latino communities across the state. In 2020, Norma was called back from retirement to NC DHHS to help coordinate the agency’s COVID-19 response in the Latinx population. She has continued that work through her current role as Latinx Community Co-Lead for COVID Response for North Carolina’s Community Engagement Alliance (NC CEAL). She concludes by calling for unity and perseverance in Latino communities, and sharing words of wisdom for future leaders, which will include her grandchildren.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Norma Martí by Daniel Velásquez, 31 May 2023, R-1010, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29346
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
COVID-19; Community and social services and programs; Education; Healthcare; Racism and discrimination
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Administradores de servicios de salud
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
A una edad temprana, Norma Martí emigró con su familia desde Puerto Rico a un barrio de gran diversidad y de clase obrera en el noroeste de Indiana, a las afueras de Chicago. Allí comparte sus experiencias formativas, lo que le permitió alcanzar una educación universitaria, y sus encuentros con la discriminación en su primer papel como educadora. Posteriormente trabajó para la Oficina del Censo en Illinois y para el Research Triangle Institute (RTI, por sus siglas en ingles) en Carolina del Norte, mejorando el alcance de ambas organizaciones a las comunidades Latinas. A finales de los años 90, Norma decidió dedicarse a la promoción y la divulgación como Directora de Desarrollo de El Pueblo, una organización sin ánimo de lucro con sede en Raleigh. Ya a mediados de los 2000, en un nuevo rol como Especialista en Alcance a Minorías para el Departamento de Salud y Servicios Humanos de Carolina del Norte (NC DHHS, por sus siglas en ingles), Norma se apoyó en las conexiones que había establecido con varias organizaciones Latinas para expandir Medicaid y el seguro de salud infantil en comunidades Latinas de todo el estado. En 2020, Norma regresó de su jubilación a NC DHHS para ayudar a coordinar la respuesta de la agencia al COVID-19 en la población Latina. Ha continuado ese trabajo a través de su papel actual como Co-Líder de la Comunidad Latinx para la Respuesta al COVID de la Alianza de Participación Comunitaria de Carolina del Norte (NC CEAL, por sus siglas en ingles). Concluye pidiendo unidad y la perseverancia en las comunidades Latinas, y comparte consejos para futuros líderes, entre los que estarán sus nietos.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Norma Martí por Daniel Velásquez, 31 May 2023, R-1010, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
COVID-19; Cuidado de la salud; Educación; Programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios; Racismo y discriminación
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Daniel Velazquez: Okay, so today is the 31st of May of 2023. I am Daniel Velásquez. I am here with Norma Marti, who is currently the NC CEAL Latinx Community Co-Lead for COVID Response. And we are conducting this interview via Zoom. Norma, thank you so much for sitting down with me and sharing your story.
Norma Martí: Thank you, Daniel, for giving me this opportunity to take out some cobwebs from the mind.
DV: Okay, Norma, could you tell me about your personal background, where you were born, raised, and any early family experiences that you'd like to share?
NM: Yeah, sure. So, I was born in Mayaguez, Puerto Rico, basically about six months after the island got their Estado Libre Asociado designation, which to me is a glorified colony. But my dad had already been in Indiana, northwest Indiana, working in steel mills because there was not a lot of work. He came from a farm family and the farms weren't farming, and the land was being bought up by U.S. military, whatever. And so, he left and went to work in the steel mill. Mom was there with him, my two older sisters, and then got pregnant with me in the early fifties. And so, she just--. Because we're citizens and it's easy for us to cross the border—and again, we're only citizens by an act of Congress—she went back to Aguadilla, which is where my grandfather and her siblings lived. And that's where we stayed. So, when people ask me, I forget, I was born in Mayaguez, I always say I'm from Aguadilla because that's where the family, the abuelos were. And then she didn't come back to the States for three or more years, because Papi finally stood his ground and said: we need to be together, we’re a family. And so she came, never happy to come back to the States. So that's my early memories of why I'm here as opposed to there.
DV: Okay. So, your dad came first, and he went where?
NM: He was in Indiana. He went--. The story for Papi is that my dad was tall. And so, he was hired because the steel mills at the time would put an announcement, and like, day laborers today, all of them would just show up in the parking lot. And I don't know how they would select. But dad was tall. And all the other Latinos and people in the parking lot were short. So, they called on him. And he got a job at Standard Forge Steel Mill for, gosh, 25 years. And then they shut down and then he worked for Inland Steel. But again, it was a good paying job, right.
DV: Okay, and at what age did you finally come over with your mom?
NM: It was about when I was about three, three or four. I started kindergarten here in Indiana. So, again, dad was just a laborer, but he had--. It was good income, steady income, good benefits. His benefits actually paid for my mother's elder care when she needed to be cared for in her old age. So, East Chicago is a suburb, if you would, of Chicago. It's in Indiana but most of our media market was Chicago, so we knew everything about Chicago politics and life and nothing about Indiana and Indiana politics and life. It was a steel mill town. Everybody was blue collar pretty much. All our mothers spoke some language other than English, Polish, Ukrainian, Yugoslavian, Croatian, and the Blacks even had an accent when they spoke, the moms did, because they came up from the south, right. So, the teachers were the only ones that spoke standard English. So yeah, and each group had their own benevolent society and or church. Like the whites went to one Catholic church, the Mexicans went to one Catholic church. And so, it was just an interesting--. When I look back, it was an interesting, segregated, but yet still integrated. I don't know if that makes sense. So, things like my dad and his colleagues started the Brotherhood Social Club. It was a Puerto Rican thing. Friday night bingo, Saturday night bailes with orquesta from Chicago, the big names from Chicago. And Sundays, anything; potlucks, whatever, just to be together, these fifty to a hundred families, all from somewhere in Puerto Rico. We actually organized the first Puerto Rican Estado Libre Asociado Day on July 25th. My kids were little at the time, so it was in the mid ’80s, 1980s. Because we had to keep up with La Unión Benéfica Mexicana, which had the biggest parade in town for their Independence Day in September. So it was that kind of ethnic--. It was a friendly rivalry. We went to the parade. We had our own float in the Mexican parade. They had one in ours. So it was just never feeling foreign at all because of that environment until I went off to college. And that's a story unto itself. Again, my parents were happy having us graduate from high school. That for them--. They had a third-grade education, so, for them to--. For us to finish high school was success. But I had a high school counselor who really mentored me. I was really blessed. Marty Quinn, may he rest in peace. And so, he had me visiting all the colleges in Illinois and Indiana; we didn't have any money to send me to school. But I went to Dominican College up in Wisconsin, which is where his daughter actually was attending. And he was able to get a scholarship for me.
DV: Wow.
NM: So that was pretty amazing that I was, again, I call these folks angels in my life. They just, they're there, they see a spark or something in me and they guide me to what I should be doing. But Wisconsin was five hours away from East Chicago and I had never been away from my family. And so, I was homesick, very homesick. And so, I transferred then my second—sophomore year—to Purdue in West Lafayette. No scholarship. Papi paid the whole thing. I worked summers in the steel mills to help with the tuition, which at that time was two hundred dollars a semester, but that was a lot of money in the 1970s, alright? And my parents never owned a house. I call my education their investment. So, anyway, on that, I got a BA in secondary education and a minor in Spanish, of course. I remember applying to eighty-seven, and I remember eighty-seven schools to be a teacher.
DV: Did you have any experiences within college that you want to share about before you move on to teaching?
NM: College. We tried to organize a Latino group. Again, those of us that grew up in East Chicago in that area that went to Purdue, tried to get together. We just weren't strong--. There weren't enough of us. But the Blacks got a Black student union, and they gave us a room that we could then go meet in to just plan and organize and celebrate our own things. I was on the Dean's List. I graduated with honors in my BA. Yeah, it was--. Dr. Gonzalez, I guess I've mentioned her to you before. She was married to Dr. Gonzalez, who was Puerto Rican. She was white, but she became, again, one of those angels in my life that I'll tell you a little bit more about her later on as I talk about my professional development. But again, having those, the Gonzalezes there made it possible. I got an F on my first English paper. I had never gotten anything but A’s in high school. How the hell did I get an F on my first college education? I did not at Dominican, but somehow at Purdue I did. And she coached me and instructed me, gave me little hints about what I was doing or not doing correctly. And I ended up, like I said, on the Dean's List graduating with honors by the time I got it.
DV: Did you always have teaching as a plan? That was what you wanted to do?
NM: Yeah, I mean, again, I come from a generation where you were either a teacher or maybe a nurse. There weren't a whole lot of secretaries there weren't a whole lot of ladder-climbing days back then. And I wanted to be a teacher but, I mean a doctor, but when I saw my dad changing my sister's bandages after a surgery I completely freaked out. He had to come and get me and neglected my sister who needed to have her bandages put back on. So, I realized then at a very young age that I probably couldn't stand being a doctor. And I love teaching. I've always enjoyed teaching regardless of the subject. I enjoy sharing and learning with my students. So yeah.
DV: Okay, so tell us about your teaching career.
NM: Okay, so my teaching career, again, I sent out eighty-seven applications all around Illinois, Indiana, and I even went to Wisconsin. I had one interview, one interview, a telephone interview at that, and I was not going to take the job. My dad said: well why, it's the only one you've had, it's here in Indiana. I said, dad, but it's way over there in Fort Wayne and the darn principal called me--. He said: we've never had a foreigner in our school before.
DV: Wow.
NM: And so, and now looking back, there weren't any Blacks in that school either, any Black students or teachers. So, I really was a foreigner in many ways. So, my dad insisted that I needed to take that job and teach that man a lesson. And then this is where the Dr. Gonzalez story--. I was ready to quit after my first semester. I was like, this--. He was just so--. Those little micro-aggressive comments that he would make every single day. I hated them. And he would even say them in front of my students, which I totally resented. And so, I just remember dad, I mean I was telling my dad. And he said: if you don't want to go, come back home, you're fine. And I was talking again, Dr. Gonzalez continued mentoring us as we moved on into our careers. And she said, no, no, let me come. She was an English teacher. So, she said let me come, let me do a lesson in your class. And when I told the racist principal that I was having this person from Purdue University come and teach me class. He was like, Purdue in Lafayette? I go, yes, yes. He says, oh, that's wonderful. Well after that I was like--. He stopped the aggressions and I ended up staying there another year and got a new principal who was wonderful, was what a principal should be. He would sit in my Spanish classes and to do my teacher evaluation one time. And I didn't even know he was in my class. I used to, this is again, old school, we had to go into a lab with headphones and listen to Spanish tape conversations, right. And so, I would play lotería with my students at the end with the vocabulary of the week, right. And this kid says, bing--. You know, lotería, lotería! and I look and go, who's that kid in that? I don't have a kid in that seat. Well, it turned out it was the principal. [Laughter]. He was in there evaluating my performance that day. And he came back at the end of the class, and he says: Ms. Martí, that was, I think I've learned more Spanish in these 45 minutes than I had in all my undergraduate classes in Spanish in college. And I said, well, thank you. That's great. So it was, it was kind of a day-and-night. The first year I wanted to just sink into a hole and, I mean, I was totally depressed because this man was just so negative on anything. I can't even begin to tell you the words he would use but this really demeaning of me, of me as a--. Oh, yeah, she's that woman, she speaks another language, I just--. You hired me to teach Spanish, people, you know? I’m sorry. And so, and then having this gentleman who was an amazing educator and encouraged all of us to be the best teachers we could be. So that was my first year of teaching. I didn't leave teaching because of that. Again, I left because I was still--. By this time I'm twenty, what, four or five? I was still homesick. I was in Fort Wayne, Indiana, a little town called Churubusco, named after the Mexican Hollywood, right, go figure, the Spanish-American War. So, it was like three hours away from--. It's like saying Asheville to Raleigh, it's just too far to go every weekend. And so, I went back home to go to graduate school. I never did finish graduate school, but at least I moved from teaching to social work, if you would, public health at that point. And worked at the Roberto Clemente Neighborhood Center in East Chicago, Indiana, where we offered programs for the Latino community in that particular area, mostly Mexican American, even though the center was named Roberto Clemente, it was just because the Puerto Ricans had more political clout than the Mexicans at that point, although they'd been there longer than we had as a population. Loved it. We had senior citizens, a Black senior citizen group, a Latina senior citizen group. We had teams for the kids. We opened a daycare for the moms to bring their kids. It was just a wonderful, again, not a teaching experience, but a completely different way of growing and learning what social programs could do to enhance the neighborhood. So that was my first foray into what I would call social work-slash-public health in Indiana. And then I came out this way. Well, no--.
DV: How long were you at the center?
NM: At the Roberto Clemente Center? Gosh, it’s been so many years. It was three or four years. Then I went to work in the--. I had a woman from the, it must have been the 19-, pre-1980 census come to talk to our community about the importance of the census. And she offered me a job. Ta-da! I'm perfectly happy right where I'm at. And she's like, oh, you're just what we're looking for, we need. And I think the position was called Community Services Specialist or something like that. And you could work in our Chicago office, but you'd be working Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin, it's our regional office, you're just what I want. And I’m thinking, I'm not looking for a job, but thank you, if I think of anybody, I'll let you know. The woman kept calling me, Mary Grady, gosh, I hadn't thought of her in years.
DV: Wow.
NM: Mary Grady, and she kept calling me, and I finally thought, well, what the hell, let me just try it. I don't know what that means. And I loved my work at the Census Bureau in Chicago’s Regional Office. I was there for a good ten or more years, yeah. Ninety eighty censuses, and I think the beginning of the ninety censuses. So, yeah. Did a lot of traveling in those three states, worked with indigenous populations up in Wisconsin and a lot of African American and Latinos in Chicago City metro area, and then of course the folks in Indiana. My one story on that one, now that I'm thinking about stories, was being in Indianapolis talking to the Chamber of Commerce about the census, of course, right. I was, at that particular point in time, I was the regional director of the northern half of Indiana for the 1980 census, I want to say, 1980. It could have been the ninety. It was one of those two. And they were just talking away about how they couldn't hardly wait for that area to fall apart so they could buy up that land by the lake and just start building up some condos and blah, blah, blah, blah. And once we get rid of all those people, and I’m sitting there listening to this, right. This is where I live. This is northern Indiana. And I just sat there, and I thought, I don't believe that they're just--. They didn't even see me. I was in the room. I was there to speak to them. They still didn't even see me. And they continued with their little racist comments about getting rid of all these people of color and getting them out so they could build their condos on the beach. Well, last time I went to northwest Indiana, it's been a while, there are no condos at the beach, but they surely did get rid of all the minorities. By default, the jobs left. And so, again, we go where the jobs are, which is how I then got to North Carolina. After the census, I was offered a job with RTI International. How did I? The census was--. Wanted me to move to D.C. or something, I can't even remember now, it was Charlotte, D.C., and I thought, there are no Latinos there. I don't want to go there. I don't want to go to D.C. My family is here, kids. So, I decided I would do something else. I went back to teaching at a high school, my old high school. And then I got a part-time job because that's what we all do, Latinos. We work two, three, four jobs. And I was still married, but it was just--. The marriage was falling apart, and I could feel it. I got a fellowship for the University of Chicago to work in public health, and I accepted it, but then I got pregnant, and it just became very difficult to finish that curriculum. And so, I got an offer from a friend to work as a supervisor for interviews that were being done by RTI in Chicago. And I did that. And at the end of that cycle, he asked, wouldn't you like to come work at RTI in North Carolina? And I'm like, North Carolina? Let me look that up in the map. [Laughter]. And that's how I--. That’s how, what kind of work? It was--.
DV: What kind of interviews, before you even came to North Carolina, were they doing?
NM: They were interviewing for positions in their survey center here. RTI at the time had four or five different centers, each one focused on--. One was on education, one was on health, one was on international aid. I can't remember the others, but those are the three that I worked on when I was there. So, the boss came and interviewed me. He was doing interviews in Chicago for recruiting staff here in North Carolina, and they offered me a job. And I thought I was--. Like I said, I went back to teaching. I was worried about the kids and health insurance, right. They were growing. My son was ten years old. I'd gotten divorced at that point. And the little one was three, four. And I thought, gosh, health insurance. And then I looked up the area. And I thought, Raleigh--. I didn't like Charlotte, go figure. But Raleigh had the universities, and I kept thinking: well, when they grow up, they can commute and they’d still get a great education if I’m in Raleigh, right. So, let’s do it. I took the job. The only job that's ever moved me, literally paid for my move. I mean, the van, the big moving truck.
DV: Wow.
NM: People that came and packed my house. I was like, all of them. Like I was on cloud nine. And, and the big salary of what, $33,000 a year back in the day in 1991, July first. They actually paid me as of July first, although I didn't start until July fifteenth. They put us up in a hotel until the apartment became available. I mean, it was really, it was a really great blessing. Again, just a fluke that someone that I had worked with at the census was now working at RTI, and they recommended. And so, again, those connections that you make are so important in your life, and you don't always know who it is that's going to open up that door for you.
DV: Okay, I was going to ask you who it was. It was someone you knew from the census days?
NM: Yeah, somebody that worked with us at the census in Chicago took a job at RTI. Gosh, I can't, Brian, I can't remember his last name. Isn’t that terrible? Brian something. Oh my God, it'll come to me at some point. I didn't write him down. There's a lot of--. You don't get to my age and the place that I am now in my—I call it my fulfillment of my career—again, unless people have opened doors for you, unless people recognize something in you that you don't even recognize in yourself. So, I came to work in the Center for Education Research, did lots of national studies across the country. The post-secondary student aid study was the biggest one. Went everywhere, Dallas, and anywhere there were Latinos, Dallas, L.A., Phoenix, Chicago, Puerto Rico even, to do these, to do the training. And again, back in the day, we’re talking paper-and-pencil interviewing. There were no online surveys like there are today, no websites, that kind of thing. So, I had to train the interviewers. And the two things that happened at RTI was I made them realize that instruments are, if you validate an instrument in English to make the data trustworthy, reliable, then you've got to do the same thing with the Spanish. And you've got to have it translated by a professional, not by a graduate student at UNC. Because when you're feeling blue, it's not te sientes azul. It just isn't. And so, I finally got them to recognize that they needed to have a review team, and that they also needed to have a protocol in place for hiring what were called bilingual interviewers. Again, just because you speak or can read a language doesn't mean you really speak it well, right. And so today I can honestly say that they actually have a group, a professional group at RTI that reviews all their translations and trains all of their interviewers, or people that are on those different surveys. But back in the day, 1981, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 [Laughter], it was Norma. And a lot of wonderful people in those areas. But again, I lived in North Carolina, but I didn't live here because I was always on the road. My mom, mommy was here. My dad had passed away, so mommy was here helping me raise the kids, watching them. Again, church members, the whole village helping me raise these two beautiful adults that I have today. So, yeah, I decided at that point that I needed to--. My son was graduating from high school, going on to college. He went to NC State, sorry--. He did. [Laughter]. Both my kids. So El Pueblo was advertising for a development director. I had to look up what development director was, and I thought, oh, I think I could do that. So, I interviewed with, at that time, Andrea Bassan was Executive Director, and Melanie Chernoff was Assistant. They interviewed me, again, saw something in me that I probably didn't see in myself, and they said: sure, come on, join us. And so, I took a half a salary cut in pay to go work at El Pueblo, which is not something I recommend to anybody. I'm sorry, you know. Now in my old age, I kind of miss that income I would have had at RTI. But notwithstanding, I didn’t gain money, but I gained me. Fiesta del Pueblo was the only fiesta with Lat--. At that time in the whole state. And so, we got the music, the comida. My daughter and I wouldn't miss a fiesta del pueblo before I got hired by them. And so, when I got hired, I made a commitment to take a certification course at Duke so that I could learn what a development director was supposed to do. And so, I'm happy to say that I kept the budget intact those two years that I was there, came pretty close to a million, if not more, of donations. And again, I just couldn't make my life work on the salary that a nonprofit paid at that time in my life. And so, my son was in college. I didn't realize that I was helping him pay for that. And so, it was hard. And so, I--. Again, a friend said, hey, look, there's this job at the state and it's got your name on it. It's you. And I'm like, okay, I'm not really looking for a job. I quit at El Pueblo—no, I was really looking for a job. I quit El Pueblo after the last fiesta of that year, 2005, 6, and I just need to chill.
DV: Actually, tell us more about El Pueblo. What kind of work was, does El Pueblo, or did El Pueblo do at the time?
NM: At the time, El Pueblo, like I said, we were like the only Latino advocate group out there, or at least visibly. So we did a lot of advocacies in terms of--. I remember, again, talking with state legislators, department chairmen on license, trying to get the license to be valid proof of residency regardless of your status. We did the Fiesta del Pueblo, which was the biggest thing, and we did a youth photo that I really miss. I don't see that anymore anywhere, but we used to do a youth photo and did it in Greensboro one year, we did it in Raleigh, I want to say Charlotte. But again, bringing young people in to have speakers and have them interact with each other and to grow. We had a lot of grants that we put together to work on things like literacy. We had a Smart Start grant that hired, who is now my best friend, Margarita Cassini, to go to the community, to trailers, to apartment complexes to talk about literacy and the importance of reading to children. We had a Susan G. Komen grant. My dear, dear, dear Colombian friend, Maria Eugenia Cerron, who passed away from cancer a couple years ago was our leader in that effort. So, again, we had a really, it was just a familia. I didn't have my familia here, and I hadn't had it while I was at RTI because I was all over the darn place. But here, that, I mean, I'm still, Melanie is still--. Melanie baked me a cake for my seventieth birthday. So, I mean, these are still people that I call family. And yeah, so that was what El Pueblo did for me. That was my richness. That was my, that's what I banked my retirement on. All those connections that I made those two or three years. And then I built on that when I got hired at the state. Again, my friend Carolyn Sexton hired me to work at Department—then the Division of Public Health, which is part of NC DHHS, working as a minority outreach specialist, a title that was just made up. There was no coordinator, there was no staff, it was just me. And we were trying to promote the state's children's health insurance program. At the time it had just been legislated by the Clinton Administration, and so we needed to get the word out to get--. I think the first year they only had like forty thousand slots, and they completely filled up.
DV: What year was this now?
NM: Early, mid-2000s; 5, 6, 7. And that range is when I started at the state. And again, with legislation and lobbying, both from organizations like NC Child, El Pueblo, and since we found lots of different groups started cropping up then across the state. AMEXCAN, I mean, just a whole bunch of Latino-led folks whose voices were now being listened to en masse at the state, at the general assembly. Those numbers grew and to the point where I think we had almost a hundred thousand children enrolled in our health check, it’s what we called it back then. I don't know what they're calling it now. But we were like 95% enrolled eligible children in the state when I left in 2019. So, I think, again, nothing I did--. But I had built this wonderful familia with El Pueblo and people that came to our Fiesta and then again, all these organizations that started developing, that across the state with, again, leadership from rural as well as urban areas in the state. Latin American Coalition in Charlotte. I mean, just True Bridge on the west end. I mean, all these wonderful organizations that supported the work that we were trying to do of getting families enrolled in Medicaid and CHIP. And then what I thought is my most successful point in that career, in my life, is when I went to an event at the Hmong, that the Hmong community had in Morganton--. In Hickory. And when I walked in I felt like I had walked into the Brotherhood Social Club, except that they spoke Hmong and not Spanish. And so, it was just like stepping back in time, realizing that they were doing just what my family, my parents, and that whole cohort had done for us, trying to make the community recognize that they're there, that they deserve services, that they are good people. They're just great. The men were all in their little suits and we're all talking, and they brought up the mayor and they brought up the county commissioner. And I said, gosh, I'm like I'm at the Brotherhood Social Club, but they're speaking Hmong. It's so amazing. And the women were over in the table making all of their wonderful dishes. And I just, I felt I had finally been successful because not only was I getting to my people, as I call them, mi gente, regardless of their nationality, but I was also reaching these other communities that also needed to be included. So when the refugee community honored me by saying that I was one of their--. One of them, I felt successful. Not just because I felt I owed it to my community to do what I was doing, but to include them and to make them feel welcomed and entitled, was really wonderful. So, yeah.
DV: That’s wonderful.
NM: Yeah. I retired.
DV: How long did you work for the state before you retired?
NM: Twelve years only. I just--. It was time. Age was the factor. I could collect Social Security, which was--. And I figured, I wasn't making a whole lot of money, but I wasn't making--. I mean, comparable to what I was making as a state employee. And so, I thought I could live on this. And again, I've never been very good at financial, very good at financial strategies for my life, but I'm happy. It doesn't matter. I'm happy. And so, I stopped in 2019. I took my grandson to D.C., my granddaughter to Wilmington. I went to Sedona, and then I went to Cuba to do one of my last mission trips that I've done, I've done Nicaragua, Guatemala, and I got to do Cuba just before COVID.
DV: Mission trips, what do you mean?
NM: Well, most of them were church related. Or in the case of Cuba, it's a Witness for Peace/solidarity, which was created by my dear friend, Gail Phares, back in the mid-80s when the Iran-Contra reality was happening in Latin America. And again, we’re so tied to the migration to the U.S., and the push and pull at the border, we don't see that all of that has to do with our policies in D.C. I mean, I'm a, like I said, I'm a citizen by an act of Congress, not because I or my people voted to be citizens, right. So, the mission trips are usually church groups or non-profits that will take a group of folks in the U.S. to a country to get to see how people live. And to understand the policies of America, the U.S., and how those policies affect the people living in these neighboring countries, our neighbors, our brothers and sisters. And so, Nicaragua, I went, I can't remember what year all of this. Guatemala was my first one, I went twice. And my son actually went on a mission trip his senior year in high school, and it makes you see--. Mission trips for me made me realize that we are really just all one. We’re all one, whatever your belief system is, if you believe in a God or don't believe, we're all--. When I went to Guatemala, I felt like I had gone back to Puerto Rico and my grandmother's stories of how my grandmother lived in this little hut with a dirt floor, and they would throw water on it to pat it down. That's what I was living in when I went to Guatemala fifty years later. And I'm like, we're all the same. We've had different histories maybe, different ways of getting to where we are. But--. pero somos uno. Somos uno en Dios, en el universo. We have that. There's a little DNA that just trickles through every person on the planet. We may look different. Our accents may be different. Our histories may be different. But basically, what we want is the same thing. It's happiness. What's that, what's the constitutional thing, the pursuit of happiness? Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Well, they got that right. I mean that really is what every human being wants: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And so mission trips let me see that. And Cuba was, again—my last name is Martí—so it was just awesome to drive into--. Fly into Martí International Airport. [Laughter]. I claim him as an uncle, but he was on that island and my family was from the other island. At some point the Martís from Europe were the same, and then they came through the Caribbean and settled in different islands. I always say he looks like my dad, when my dad was young, José Martí does. But anyway--. And just the struggle of the people of Cuba, and the struggle they're still living today, simply because we can't get over something that happened sixty years ago. It's just like, I don't know. I mean, people are starving and dying because of an ideology. That just doesn't seem right to me. It doesn't seem moral to me. I mean, we do it here, too, right? We have families who are hungry and starving that shouldn't have to be. But when you see it on an island, at the level--. And the spirit of the Cuban people is just amazing. And of all of the people, the Guatemalans, the Nicaraguans. Yeah, so I love that experience that my faith has brought into my, in my world. It complements the work that I do here, because, again, I've established good working relationships with the Guatemalan community, Nicaraguan, and Cuban. Sometimes we butt heads, but they're still my brothers and sisters. And so, it helps me do the work here as well.
This just reminds me that a couple of--. Last year, the NC Justice Center awarded me the Lifetime Defender of Justice Award. And when they called me, I thought, did you get the right number? I haven't done anything to defend justice. And so, it was like: yeah, Norma, you’ve been nominated and the board agreed that you should get this. And I'm like, I don't understand. And so, when I was telling all my friends, I said I don't understand why I got this award. And they're like, what do you mean you don't understand? And so, they started telling me, look, you've done this and this and this. And I'm like, yeah, but those were, I mean, they were my jobs, they were my faith. That was what I was supposed to be doing. I wasn't doing anything that I wasn't supposed to be doing. That we're not all supposed to be doing, right? And then they reminded me that not everybody does do everything that I do. And I said: oh, okay. Well then, okay, let's go! And so, I got three tables worth of friends to pay an outrageous amount of money to get a chicken dinner [Laughter], but to support the Justice Center and to receive the award with me, because it wasn't for me, it was for us as a community and as people that have struggled. So, I had some of my community health workers there. I had folks from DPH , and from different churches, and from Duke, and from UNC. I mean, again, everybody that's been a part of my world was invited to come and three tables worth of people showed up. So, I was pretty excited. That meant more to me than the award. [Laughter]. That did, yeah.
DV: Did you do the mission work for a long time, or is that something that you were doing after retirement?
NM: No, no, that's a thing I did while I was working.
DV: Okay.
NM: Yeah. 19--. 1999, 2000, 2001, I went to Guatemala.
DV: Oh, wow.
NM: 2017, I think, I went to Nicaragua. Oh, and then we went to Puerto Rico after the hurricane, as part of--. My own people needed help. And so, we went to Puerto Rico to help rebuild some homes of folks on the island. And then Cuba in 2019. It was the first one after retirement. The other ones were all done while I was working. Again, my job doesn't stop with the paycheck. It extends into the rest of the day and the world. I don't know, that's just how I've seen my life. It's all of it. It's what you do on Saturdays and Sundays. And, yeah, it's all of it.
DV: And I know that you didn't stay fully retired for long. [Laughter].
NM: Some would say I haven't retired. Yeah. Well, COVID came, and with COVID came a call from NC DHHS, one of my colleagues that I'd worked with had just been made Deputy Director, Ben Money. And Ben called me and said: we need you to help us. And I go, well, what's going on? I mean, I knew that--. I knew what was going on. I was, but what is it? He says: Norma, we have 75% of patients at Duke today that are Latino. And there's--. We're only 9% of the population. And I go, my God, what are you guys doing? How are you telling people? And he says, well, that's why I'm calling you. I want you to come on board and help us. And so I thought it was a volunteer thing because, again, I don't think of money as I should, but I don't. He says no, we want you to come back, we know you're retired so maybe part-time. I go, oh, okay, you're going to pay me. Yeah, sure, I'll do it. And so, but they paid me. But what I did was, that money, I gave it to people who were not working and who were, who needed groceries and whatever. Because I figured it wasn't supposed to be for me, it was supposed to be to help the community. So, I did. I mean, I helped me, too. I went to the beach, probably more than I've ever gone to the beach in North Carolina, for my sanity. But it was really great working with Dr. Cohen and her team of deputy directors. They stepped up. We would tell Dr. Cohen that the community had a concern in whatever, Durham, Hickory, whatever, at 8 o'clock at night, and that woman would be on a Zoom call with us to answer every single question, and she followed up with every single complaint that was given by the community. The first week that I came on board, she told us at the end of this week, I want you to give away a half a million dollars so that we can get organizations to start giving the message out. So, we did. We gave five organizations $100,000. And I told them, help us get the word out, help us create the right messages, help us to do this work, and I am so proud of that work that they did. I didn't do--. I didn't create any of that. They did it all, and we curved it. I mean, we got it. We got the place where the Latino population, by the time I left, a year later—was only supposed to be for six months, it turned out to be a year—the numbers were at least, by the time we had a vaccination available, the numbers of Latinos who had vaccinated was higher than any of the other groups in the state. And so, for that, I am eternally grateful, eternally grateful. And again, as with everything, you don't do a job and walk away. You let the institution know where their holes are. And there was holes that you had to call somebody in from retirement to help you reach out to a community? Why don't you have a position in the department, hello, that already has the pulse of the community and can tell you what needs to be told and can reach out immediately. I mean, like we did within a week. But again, I wasn't part of the department at that point. I was brought in. And so, yeah, so they listened and we, they're listening. And we have some really great people at NCDHHS today. You need more, but we have some really good folks there.
DV: Thanks for sharing all of that, Norma. Considering all of these experiences, what would you say were some of the challenges and barriers that you faced in your journey? How have you addressed them?
NM: I think the challenge is understanding what you're walking into. And again, if you don't have the skill set because of your education, then go find that skill set. Take a course. Get a certificate. Always, always, always speak up when something is a deficit. Don't take it on as another task to do on top of what you were hired to do. And I think that's the hardest thing to do. It’s like, can you take a look at this translation? You know, there are professionals that do that. I'll take a look at this today, but I think you need to--. I can give you some names and numbers and contacts for you to get a professional person to be looking at this translation. And so, it's those challenges, it's doing what you're charged to do and not more. Again, I never got paid more for being bilingual. I know I never was at the top of the payroll scale. And yet there were many times I was doing two jobs, one in English and one in Spanish. So yeah, that I think is the biggest thing. Prepare yourself, educate yourself, and don't let people use you. Stand up for what you know is your space and not just feel like: I've got to hold on to this job, so I've got to do what they're telling me. I've been blessed that every job I've had I've loved. But that doesn't mean each one of them didn't offer challenges. Like I said, the racism will slap you in the face. You take the slap, but then you just move forward and find a way to educate that person that slapped you so that they don't do it again, or at least not to your face. So, I don't know. Does that make sense?
DV: Yeah, yeah, it does. Thank you. Turning that around, instead of thinking of challenges; you've spoken of angels that helped you along the way. Besides the angels, what are some of the main factors that you can pinpoint that you think have helped you? It could be something abstract, like a way of thinking, or tangible, specific people like you mentioned.
NM: Yeah, I've mentioned all the, I think I've mentioned all the people, if not, forgive me. Those of you who know me who helped me, if I didn't mention you. It's been a long trajectory. So, I think it's we are not--. Again, I'm talking my generation of Latina women. We were not taught that we could do anything other than maybe be a mother, maybe be a wife. I mean, those were the expected roles. And I love my children. I love being an abuelita. I mean, that's like my favorite job today. But that is not all who we are. We are, we have a passion inside of us. And whatever that passion is, find a way to express it. Don't let anybody block you from--. I mean we have limitations. Obviously, I would have loved to finish my master's and always wanted a doctorate, so never did all that, but I never let that stop me from seeking opportunities that were presented to me and saying: well I don't know, maybe I could do that. I could do that. And I did do that. And I did do that not by myself, but again, by educating myself and seeking partners that had the resources or the skill sets that maybe I didn't have. Finding partners is probably the most important thing in terms of barriers because you're not going to knock it down by yourself. Hundreds of people have tried that for centuries. And I look at the African-American experience in North Carolina, and as--. What, three hundred, four hundred, five, four hundred years if my math is right, four hundred-plus years of constant, constant, constant, constant, constant, constant, constant drilling down on a people. To me, it's--. They're my heroes. The fact that they survived all of that negativity and God-awfulness that was imposed on them. And it's the same thing with our people. We've had some pretty nasty shit thrown at us in the decades of the United States of America. But we have to--. We're here and we're not going anywhere. This is our country. This is our home. This is where my grandchildren will make a difference in the world. From here, they will make a difference in the world. And so, be proud of that heritage, but don't let anybody diminish it. And teach them, as much as learn from them, teach them. Yeah, yeah, that's pretty abstract.
DV: Thank you.
NM: But I can't put it into like go do A, B, C. Whatever that teaching opportunity is for you, whether it's a certificate, whether it's a couple of classes. I mean, my latest thing is meditation. My goal in life now for the next however many years I'm allowed to breathe on this planet is to ask my Latina women, my daughters and my nieces and my nephews, and boys too, the nephews and the sons, to take a deep breath. And to find that inner peace that is there and whatever you want to call it; God, energy, spirit, whatever you want to call it, there is this force within all of us that's just really divine. And if you let it come out, people may see it. You may not see it, but other people will see it. And so, give yourself that time to just pause, reflect, and then go do something. It's not just say it, do it.
DV: So this is what you've been up to lately, meditation?
NM: Yeah. Well, my NC CEAL work is winding down. I had a wonderful review with Wake Forest University that's doing, for the first time ever, a Spanish language intervention called Pain Trainer for people with major pain or terminal pain that medication doesn't always resolve, it’s an eight-module intervention on finding that place of tranquility and calmness within you and not focusing on the pain. It's a wonderful medical intervention, right. You're talking about meditation as a tool in the world of health. And so, they've translated into Spanish. It's been wonderful being on that team at Wake Forest. Again, they had it professionally translated, but then they brought together this group of folks, me and ten other people across the state from different nationalities to look at it, to make sure that language spoke to all of our nationalities and that the people on the computer screen look like us. So, yeah, that's been a wonder. It's finished, but it's a wonderful project. Stay tuned and look for it. Again, it'll be online. It'll be free. I've done some work with Duke along the same lines in terms of meditation and training. I'm finishing a certificate with the Chopra Center on Meditation. Deepak Chopra is probably one of the most renowned U.S. medical doctors has addressed the value of meditation as a health equalizer. Again, it brings down all the bad things and brings up all the good things. So, blood pressure, heart, chronic disease, all those measures will lessen if you spend some time meditating. And so, my goal is, in the next four or five years, is to have that Casa de la Abuelita, where I can teach meditation to my girls. To all the women and men, Latinos. I am going to be a little segregationist about it. I really want to focus on the Latino population and teaching us to breathe, to see that inner beauty that's in all of us and that strength that we have inherited from our ancestors. Yeah, that's what I hope I can do in the next decade or so.
DV: That's awesome. Norma, I think we skipped your work with NC CEAL. Can you tell us a bit about how that's been going on?
NM: Sure, that's been the last two years, and it's been wonderful work. Year one, we were still kind of the tail-end, middle-end. Vaccination was going.
56:30 DV: First--. So you were working for the state and then you left that. They were hiring other folks to take over. So, was it immediately after that you started working for NC CEAL?
NM: Actually, I took the NC CEAL job thinking that I would be done with the state job in December. So I started in January of 2021.
DV: Oh, okay.
NM: But then they didn't hire the persons, the people, and so the state asked me to stay for a few more months, and so I was kind of double, double. But this isn't a job, it's not like nine to five, it's really just a, it's an honorarium that we get from UNC School of Medicine, Center for Community Partnerships and Health, I think is what CCPH stands for. So, I was able to do that. And those first few months was really just recruiting a team to work with us to help create materials that were still needed in our Latino community. And so, again, because of the work that I've done in the state, my dear friend Dr. Krista Perreira called me and says: come and join us on NC CEAL. I'd like you to be--. She's the academic co-lead, the community co-lead for the Latino, Latinx Community Response team. And so, what we did in year one was we brought together ten young--. And I told her, Krista, we need young people. She says, what? I said anybody under forty? Because, again, we want to build up the leadership of the Latino community. It's okay to get the executive directors of all of these organizations, but they're busy. Let's get some of the people that work with them, but that need to maybe get some leadership and connect with each other as leaders, young leaders in the state. And so, we got ten folks together. They're a wonderful team. I would name them all out, but I'll forget one of them. I should have brought my list of them, but I don't want to forget any of them. But again, from north, south, east, and west of North Carolina, all of them working either community colleges or nonprofit organization. Again, we covered every nationality we could of the Latino world. And we, what's missing in the messaging for COVID. And so, everything was like, it's just too complicated. I mean, it's too many words, too much, people just want bullets. And so we ran across a colleague at Arizona State University, Dr. Gilbert Lopez, who had begun a series of cómicas, animated cómicas, with the gentleman that did Coco, the movie [Laughter].
DV: Wow.
NM: Did some of the animations of the original ones. And so, he needed additional funding to create some more of these animations. And so, as a team, we agreed that we could use our money for that to happen. So, and we gave them the themes. We gave them five themes. One was the importance of masking, the importance of vaccination of young people, because it was just beginning to give it to little--. The five-to-eleven-year-olds. Mental health as a result of the isolation. The chip myth that they're putting a chip in us because they're going to go out to get us. And, oh gosh, I can't remember what the fourth one was, the fifth one, but we created these wonderful--. We? The animation team that Arizona had contracted created them. We as a team made sure that the words were the words we wanted to have. So, we have these wonderful, rich characters: Tio Rigo, Doctora Susana, Mama Lucha, the Abuelita. It's just, it was, they're just beautiful characters that represent, I mean, they tend to be a little Tex-Mex. But even as a Puerto Rican, I felt like I could relate to anyone, I could relate to the Abuelita, she is me. And so, I thought, okay, this is great. So, we created the animations. And then on a fluke, again, you just ask. Sometimes you're afraid to ask. I asked the animation company. I said these are great, but we don't always have connectivity in our rural parts. I said, well, how much more would it cost us if you printed them into like little cómicas? And he's like, we'll just throw that in. We'll send you the file. That's no big deal. It didn't cost us anything except the printing, which again, we had to pay for printing. And then we ended up one day at El Centro Hispano, like four of us, boxing them so that we could ship them to all the other, the other rest of the team. And then we realized we didn't have money to ship them. And so, I took some and, and Prudencia took some, and Hilda took some, and we all took some, and on our way home or whenever we were in that part of the state, we dropped off boxes to our colleagues so that they would have their cómicas to pass out at festivals, at vaccination events, at anything they were doing COVID-related. Those were a big hit, so much so that La Conexión, the Conexión USA newspaper here in North Carolina, took them and for every week in, I want to say, end of November-December 2021, they published a full page of the Comica with a QR code. Is that what they're called? That if you clicked on it, it would take you to their website and then you could see the animation of the Comica, right. Same thing, but one is visually and sound and the other one you have to know how to read, right? So, it was amazing the volume of hits that we got on those animations. So that was our success story for year one. And then for year two, the funding was different, and we ended up just having an African American Latino group, so it was only three or four Latinos, three or four African Americans. It was a little harder to get to what was still missing of the messaging of COVID at that point. We're in 2022, vaccines have been out. The boosters are out. So, we focused on little kids, right, because the rate of vaccination of little kids is so low. And we all agreed that we would create a multi-ethnic, multi-racial coloring book with a lot of the same kid characters that were in our original series. So, we still have the Doctora Susana, and this time she's talking to the kids that were in the series before, in the other five cómicas. And yeah, yeah, disclaimer that I did use the names of my children [laughter] on the cómicas because I could give parental consent without a problem, right? [Laughter]. So, I used their first names at least so that you have a Bianca and a Saul character. And they just, they did this really great coloring, the verbal part of it, the team came up with, right. And we got it approved by the doctors to make sure we were saying the protocol that was correct for masking and getting your vaccinations and stuff. And then we got a local artist, a Latino artist, to do the illustration. Rafael Osuba, who is a Raleighite, I think he lives in Raleigh, did the animation out of his company. He and another animator did the whole thing. So, it's all, again, created locally by a local group of Latinos and African Americans. The words came out of them, and then the animation came out of the local Latino artists. So that's our latest claim to fame. And then we did, as part of year two, a series of trainings on the importance of mental health, because, again, the team felt that that was the one thing that we could still do a lot with in terms of COVID, is to let people know that this isolation and survival, if you survived infection changed you and changed your family. And you need, and you may need help, and you may need to talk about it. So, we sent--. We had sixty slots for community health workers to do a twelve-hour training, so we did it in three four-hour sessions. En Español, one, and then two in English. And we trained--. Of the sixty slots, again, they had to come to all three sessions, and we paid them, of course, to do this because we don't--. That's their time, and either they're missing work or they could use the money, as we all can, right. So, they were paid to take the training. So, these promotoras de salud took the training and we have, I think, about forty-some that took all three sessions out of the 60. And so, they now have this wonderful toolkit of how to talk to people about approaching their mental health and the resource, like where to go to get a professional, a practitioner. So, hopefully, if we get funded for year three, we're going to take that up a notch and continue working with the community health workers.
DV: That’s wonderful.
NM: Again, challenges, universities are a bureaucracy, just like the state is a bureaucracy. Things don't happen quickly. You don't get paid on the day, on the calendar. It's whenever it gets processed by all of the different departments and somebody signs it and says it's okay. But eventually people do get their money, and eventually we do get a product and we can share it with the community. So, it's the consistency and the hitting--. Knocking on that door, knocking, knocking, knocking, knocking, until somebody opens it and does what they need to do with it. Because these are our dollars, these are federal dollars we pay into the federal pocket, all of us, whether we're documented or not documented, we all pay into the federal coffers. And so, these projects should involve and recompense the people participating appropriately. And we made sure that, as part of the NC CEAL effort, every time we use community members they were being paid for their time. Not a lot, but they were getting paid, which is important. Yeah, so that's kind of like my--. When I'm not meditating, I'm working on NC CEAL stuff.
DV: You keep busy.
NM: I keep busy. And I have grandchildren. I have a one-year-old, an eight-year-old, and a ten-year-old, soon to be eleven. So, they also keep me busy. And I'm blessed. I'm rich. I am the richest woman in Raleigh.
DV: [Laughter]. That's great. Your story is very inspiring. And as you know, we are doing a series on Latino leaders, and this is why I'm talking to you. So, I wanted to ask you what leadership means to you. How would you define that? If you think about your experiences, what do you think leadership means to you?
NM: To me, it's collaboration. It's looking for a door, a window, someone to show you that door or for you to show them that door that needs, that has a need behind it. It means doing the work but also asking for help. I think leadership is you, the you in unity, okay? Not only with what you see around you; helping to lift everyone that crosses your path, not just yourself. And you fail if you're just doing it for you, whatever that may be, but if you're doing it because you see all these other people that need to be lifted, that need to walk through that door with you. That to me is, again, the leadership is you, all of you, in unity with what you see around you. Again, lifting everyone that crosses your path, not just yourself.
DV: You had mentioned to me once, well, before, during our pre-interview, that you were proud of having opened doors for others behind you. Well, that's wonderful.
NM: Yeah, that's my claim to fame. Yeah, I hope I've done that for my children as well as for the folks who are not my children. But again, just reflecting, we need to stand tall. We need to be proud of who you are. And I don't know that I always was in my twenties and thirties, and maybe until I came to North Carolina in my forties. I think that's when I started to realize that there was all this potential, there's all these things out there. Like I realized that I should have had a Master's in Public Health because I love what public health does, right? My mom and dad did a lot by coming to the states. They sacrificed; all of our ancestors paved the way for us. So, I see it as my job, your job, all of our jobs to pave the way for that next generation of Latino leaders. Stay tall, be proud of who you are, the hard work that all of your family has done. I mean you may not see it as doing it for you, but they've given up a lot of their lives for you to have the life that you have. So, take all of that and don't let it go to waste. Pave the way not only for yourself—make yourself better at every step—but also bring other people along with you as you're moving along that timeline.
DV: Thank you so much Norma for sharing your story with us.
NM: Thank you for letting me, it's been such fun sharing and remembering what I can. [Laughter]. Of this long and wonderful life of Norma Martí. Gracias, Daniel, gracias.
DV: No, gracias a ti, Norma.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Transcribers: Sofia Godoy & Daniel Velásquez
Interview Date: 2023 May 31
Date of Transcription: 2023 August 28 / Revisions: 2023 September 22
Es: Transcripción
Daniel Velazquez: Okay, so today is the 31st of May of 2023. I am Daniel Velásquez. I am here with Norma Marti, who is currently the NC CEAL Latinx Community Co-Lead for COVID Response. And we are conducting this interview via Zoom. Norma, thank you so much for sitting down with me and sharing your story.
Norma Martí: Thank you, Daniel, for giving me this opportunity to take out some cobwebs from the mind.
DV: Okay, Norma, could you tell me about your personal background, where you were born, raised, and any early family experiences that you'd like to share?
NM: Yeah, sure. So, I was born in Mayaguez, Puerto Rico, basically about six months after the island got their Estado Libre Asociado designation, which to me is a glorified colony. But my dad had already been in Indiana, northwest Indiana, working in steel mills because there was not a lot of work. He came from a farm family and the farms weren't farming, and the land was being bought up by U.S. military, whatever. And so, he left and went to work in the steel mill. Mom was there with him, my two older sisters, and then got pregnant with me in the early fifties. And so, she just--. Because we're citizens and it's easy for us to cross the border—and again, we're only citizens by an act of Congress—she went back to Aguadilla, which is where my grandfather and her siblings lived. And that's where we stayed. So, when people ask me, I forget, I was born in Mayaguez, I always say I'm from Aguadilla because that's where the family, the abuelos were. And then she didn't come back to the States for three or more years, because Papi finally stood his ground and said: we need to be together, we’re a family. And so she came, never happy to come back to the States. So that's my early memories of why I'm here as opposed to there.
DV: Okay. So, your dad came first, and he went where?
NM: He was in Indiana. He went--. The story for Papi is that my dad was tall. And so, he was hired because the steel mills at the time would put an announcement, and like, day laborers today, all of them would just show up in the parking lot. And I don't know how they would select. But dad was tall. And all the other Latinos and people in the parking lot were short. So, they called on him. And he got a job at Standard Forge Steel Mill for, gosh, 25 years. And then they shut down and then he worked for Inland Steel. But again, it was a good paying job, right.
DV: Okay, and at what age did you finally come over with your mom?
NM: It was about when I was about three, three or four. I started kindergarten here in Indiana. So, again, dad was just a laborer, but he had--. It was good income, steady income, good benefits. His benefits actually paid for my mother's elder care when she needed to be cared for in her old age. So, East Chicago is a suburb, if you would, of Chicago. It's in Indiana but most of our media market was Chicago, so we knew everything about Chicago politics and life and nothing about Indiana and Indiana politics and life. It was a steel mill town. Everybody was blue collar pretty much. All our mothers spoke some language other than English, Polish, Ukrainian, Yugoslavian, Croatian, and the Blacks even had an accent when they spoke, the moms did, because they came up from the south, right. So, the teachers were the only ones that spoke standard English. So yeah, and each group had their own benevolent society and or church. Like the whites went to one Catholic church, the Mexicans went to one Catholic church. And so, it was just an interesting--. When I look back, it was an interesting, segregated, but yet still integrated. I don't know if that makes sense. So, things like my dad and his colleagues started the Brotherhood Social Club. It was a Puerto Rican thing. Friday night bingo, Saturday night bailes with orquesta from Chicago, the big names from Chicago. And Sundays, anything; potlucks, whatever, just to be together, these fifty to a hundred families, all from somewhere in Puerto Rico. We actually organized the first Puerto Rican Estado Libre Asociado Day on July 25th. My kids were little at the time, so it was in the mid ’80s, 1980s. Because we had to keep up with La Unión Benéfica Mexicana, which had the biggest parade in town for their Independence Day in September. So it was that kind of ethnic--. It was a friendly rivalry. We went to the parade. We had our own float in the Mexican parade. They had one in ours. So it was just never feeling foreign at all because of that environment until I went off to college. And that's a story unto itself. Again, my parents were happy having us graduate from high school. That for them--. They had a third-grade education, so, for them to--. For us to finish high school was success. But I had a high school counselor who really mentored me. I was really blessed. Marty Quinn, may he rest in peace. And so, he had me visiting all the colleges in Illinois and Indiana; we didn't have any money to send me to school. But I went to Dominican College up in Wisconsin, which is where his daughter actually was attending. And he was able to get a scholarship for me.
DV: Wow.
NM: So that was pretty amazing that I was, again, I call these folks angels in my life. They just, they're there, they see a spark or something in me and they guide me to what I should be doing. But Wisconsin was five hours away from East Chicago and I had never been away from my family. And so, I was homesick, very homesick. And so, I transferred then my second—sophomore year—to Purdue in West Lafayette. No scholarship. Papi paid the whole thing. I worked summers in the steel mills to help with the tuition, which at that time was two hundred dollars a semester, but that was a lot of money in the 1970s, alright? And my parents never owned a house. I call my education their investment. So, anyway, on that, I got a BA in secondary education and a minor in Spanish, of course. I remember applying to eighty-seven, and I remember eighty-seven schools to be a teacher.
DV: Did you have any experiences within college that you want to share about before you move on to teaching?
NM: College. We tried to organize a Latino group. Again, those of us that grew up in East Chicago in that area that went to Purdue, tried to get together. We just weren't strong--. There weren't enough of us. But the Blacks got a Black student union, and they gave us a room that we could then go meet in to just plan and organize and celebrate our own things. I was on the Dean's List. I graduated with honors in my BA. Yeah, it was--. Dr. Gonzalez, I guess I've mentioned her to you before. She was married to Dr. Gonzalez, who was Puerto Rican. She was white, but she became, again, one of those angels in my life that I'll tell you a little bit more about her later on as I talk about my professional development. But again, having those, the Gonzalezes there made it possible. I got an F on my first English paper. I had never gotten anything but A’s in high school. How the hell did I get an F on my first college education? I did not at Dominican, but somehow at Purdue I did. And she coached me and instructed me, gave me little hints about what I was doing or not doing correctly. And I ended up, like I said, on the Dean's List graduating with honors by the time I got it.
DV: Did you always have teaching as a plan? That was what you wanted to do?
NM: Yeah, I mean, again, I come from a generation where you were either a teacher or maybe a nurse. There weren't a whole lot of secretaries there weren't a whole lot of ladder-climbing days back then. And I wanted to be a teacher but, I mean a doctor, but when I saw my dad changing my sister's bandages after a surgery I completely freaked out. He had to come and get me and neglected my sister who needed to have her bandages put back on. So, I realized then at a very young age that I probably couldn't stand being a doctor. And I love teaching. I've always enjoyed teaching regardless of the subject. I enjoy sharing and learning with my students. So yeah.
DV: Okay, so tell us about your teaching career.
NM: Okay, so my teaching career, again, I sent out eighty-seven applications all around Illinois, Indiana, and I even went to Wisconsin. I had one interview, one interview, a telephone interview at that, and I was not going to take the job. My dad said: well why, it's the only one you've had, it's here in Indiana. I said, dad, but it's way over there in Fort Wayne and the darn principal called me--. He said: we've never had a foreigner in our school before.
DV: Wow.
NM: And so, and now looking back, there weren't any Blacks in that school either, any Black students or teachers. So, I really was a foreigner in many ways. So, my dad insisted that I needed to take that job and teach that man a lesson. And then this is where the Dr. Gonzalez story--. I was ready to quit after my first semester. I was like, this--. He was just so--. Those little micro-aggressive comments that he would make every single day. I hated them. And he would even say them in front of my students, which I totally resented. And so, I just remember dad, I mean I was telling my dad. And he said: if you don't want to go, come back home, you're fine. And I was talking again, Dr. Gonzalez continued mentoring us as we moved on into our careers. And she said, no, no, let me come. She was an English teacher. So, she said let me come, let me do a lesson in your class. And when I told the racist principal that I was having this person from Purdue University come and teach me class. He was like, Purdue in Lafayette? I go, yes, yes. He says, oh, that's wonderful. Well after that I was like--. He stopped the aggressions and I ended up staying there another year and got a new principal who was wonderful, was what a principal should be. He would sit in my Spanish classes and to do my teacher evaluation one time. And I didn't even know he was in my class. I used to, this is again, old school, we had to go into a lab with headphones and listen to Spanish tape conversations, right. And so, I would play lotería with my students at the end with the vocabulary of the week, right. And this kid says, bing--. You know, lotería, lotería! and I look and go, who's that kid in that? I don't have a kid in that seat. Well, it turned out it was the principal. [Laughter]. He was in there evaluating my performance that day. And he came back at the end of the class, and he says: Ms. Martí, that was, I think I've learned more Spanish in these 45 minutes than I had in all my undergraduate classes in Spanish in college. And I said, well, thank you. That's great. So it was, it was kind of a day-and-night. The first year I wanted to just sink into a hole and, I mean, I was totally depressed because this man was just so negative on anything. I can't even begin to tell you the words he would use but this really demeaning of me, of me as a--. Oh, yeah, she's that woman, she speaks another language, I just--. You hired me to teach Spanish, people, you know? I’m sorry. And so, and then having this gentleman who was an amazing educator and encouraged all of us to be the best teachers we could be. So that was my first year of teaching. I didn't leave teaching because of that. Again, I left because I was still--. By this time I'm twenty, what, four or five? I was still homesick. I was in Fort Wayne, Indiana, a little town called Churubusco, named after the Mexican Hollywood, right, go figure, the Spanish-American War. So, it was like three hours away from--. It's like saying Asheville to Raleigh, it's just too far to go every weekend. And so, I went back home to go to graduate school. I never did finish graduate school, but at least I moved from teaching to social work, if you would, public health at that point. And worked at the Roberto Clemente Neighborhood Center in East Chicago, Indiana, where we offered programs for the Latino community in that particular area, mostly Mexican American, even though the center was named Roberto Clemente, it was just because the Puerto Ricans had more political clout than the Mexicans at that point, although they'd been there longer than we had as a population. Loved it. We had senior citizens, a Black senior citizen group, a Latina senior citizen group. We had teams for the kids. We opened a daycare for the moms to bring their kids. It was just a wonderful, again, not a teaching experience, but a completely different way of growing and learning what social programs could do to enhance the neighborhood. So that was my first foray into what I would call social work-slash-public health in Indiana. And then I came out this way. Well, no--.
DV: How long were you at the center?
NM: At the Roberto Clemente Center? Gosh, it’s been so many years. It was three or four years. Then I went to work in the--. I had a woman from the, it must have been the 19-, pre-1980 census come to talk to our community about the importance of the census. And she offered me a job. Ta-da! I'm perfectly happy right where I'm at. And she's like, oh, you're just what we're looking for, we need. And I think the position was called Community Services Specialist or something like that. And you could work in our Chicago office, but you'd be working Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin, it's our regional office, you're just what I want. And I’m thinking, I'm not looking for a job, but thank you, if I think of anybody, I'll let you know. The woman kept calling me, Mary Grady, gosh, I hadn't thought of her in years.
DV: Wow.
NM: Mary Grady, and she kept calling me, and I finally thought, well, what the hell, let me just try it. I don't know what that means. And I loved my work at the Census Bureau in Chicago’s Regional Office. I was there for a good ten or more years, yeah. Ninety eighty censuses, and I think the beginning of the ninety censuses. So, yeah. Did a lot of traveling in those three states, worked with indigenous populations up in Wisconsin and a lot of African American and Latinos in Chicago City metro area, and then of course the folks in Indiana. My one story on that one, now that I'm thinking about stories, was being in Indianapolis talking to the Chamber of Commerce about the census, of course, right. I was, at that particular point in time, I was the regional director of the northern half of Indiana for the 1980 census, I want to say, 1980. It could have been the ninety. It was one of those two. And they were just talking away about how they couldn't hardly wait for that area to fall apart so they could buy up that land by the lake and just start building up some condos and blah, blah, blah, blah. And once we get rid of all those people, and I’m sitting there listening to this, right. This is where I live. This is northern Indiana. And I just sat there, and I thought, I don't believe that they're just--. They didn't even see me. I was in the room. I was there to speak to them. They still didn't even see me. And they continued with their little racist comments about getting rid of all these people of color and getting them out so they could build their condos on the beach. Well, last time I went to northwest Indiana, it's been a while, there are no condos at the beach, but they surely did get rid of all the minorities. By default, the jobs left. And so, again, we go where the jobs are, which is how I then got to North Carolina. After the census, I was offered a job with RTI International. How did I? The census was--. Wanted me to move to D.C. or something, I can't even remember now, it was Charlotte, D.C., and I thought, there are no Latinos there. I don't want to go there. I don't want to go to D.C. My family is here, kids. So, I decided I would do something else. I went back to teaching at a high school, my old high school. And then I got a part-time job because that's what we all do, Latinos. We work two, three, four jobs. And I was still married, but it was just--. The marriage was falling apart, and I could feel it. I got a fellowship for the University of Chicago to work in public health, and I accepted it, but then I got pregnant, and it just became very difficult to finish that curriculum. And so, I got an offer from a friend to work as a supervisor for interviews that were being done by RTI in Chicago. And I did that. And at the end of that cycle, he asked, wouldn't you like to come work at RTI in North Carolina? And I'm like, North Carolina? Let me look that up in the map. [Laughter]. And that's how I--. That’s how, what kind of work? It was--.
DV: What kind of interviews, before you even came to North Carolina, were they doing?
NM: They were interviewing for positions in their survey center here. RTI at the time had four or five different centers, each one focused on--. One was on education, one was on health, one was on international aid. I can't remember the others, but those are the three that I worked on when I was there. So, the boss came and interviewed me. He was doing interviews in Chicago for recruiting staff here in North Carolina, and they offered me a job. And I thought I was--. Like I said, I went back to teaching. I was worried about the kids and health insurance, right. They were growing. My son was ten years old. I'd gotten divorced at that point. And the little one was three, four. And I thought, gosh, health insurance. And then I looked up the area. And I thought, Raleigh--. I didn't like Charlotte, go figure. But Raleigh had the universities, and I kept thinking: well, when they grow up, they can commute and they’d still get a great education if I’m in Raleigh, right. So, let’s do it. I took the job. The only job that's ever moved me, literally paid for my move. I mean, the van, the big moving truck.
DV: Wow.
NM: People that came and packed my house. I was like, all of them. Like I was on cloud nine. And, and the big salary of what, $33,000 a year back in the day in 1991, July first. They actually paid me as of July first, although I didn't start until July fifteenth. They put us up in a hotel until the apartment became available. I mean, it was really, it was a really great blessing. Again, just a fluke that someone that I had worked with at the census was now working at RTI, and they recommended. And so, again, those connections that you make are so important in your life, and you don't always know who it is that's going to open up that door for you.
DV: Okay, I was going to ask you who it was. It was someone you knew from the census days?
NM: Yeah, somebody that worked with us at the census in Chicago took a job at RTI. Gosh, I can't, Brian, I can't remember his last name. Isn’t that terrible? Brian something. Oh my God, it'll come to me at some point. I didn't write him down. There's a lot of--. You don't get to my age and the place that I am now in my—I call it my fulfillment of my career—again, unless people have opened doors for you, unless people recognize something in you that you don't even recognize in yourself. So, I came to work in the Center for Education Research, did lots of national studies across the country. The post-secondary student aid study was the biggest one. Went everywhere, Dallas, and anywhere there were Latinos, Dallas, L.A., Phoenix, Chicago, Puerto Rico even, to do these, to do the training. And again, back in the day, we’re talking paper-and-pencil interviewing. There were no online surveys like there are today, no websites, that kind of thing. So, I had to train the interviewers. And the two things that happened at RTI was I made them realize that instruments are, if you validate an instrument in English to make the data trustworthy, reliable, then you've got to do the same thing with the Spanish. And you've got to have it translated by a professional, not by a graduate student at UNC. Because when you're feeling blue, it's not te sientes azul. It just isn't. And so, I finally got them to recognize that they needed to have a review team, and that they also needed to have a protocol in place for hiring what were called bilingual interviewers. Again, just because you speak or can read a language doesn't mean you really speak it well, right. And so today I can honestly say that they actually have a group, a professional group at RTI that reviews all their translations and trains all of their interviewers, or people that are on those different surveys. But back in the day, 1981, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 [Laughter], it was Norma. And a lot of wonderful people in those areas. But again, I lived in North Carolina, but I didn't live here because I was always on the road. My mom, mommy was here. My dad had passed away, so mommy was here helping me raise the kids, watching them. Again, church members, the whole village helping me raise these two beautiful adults that I have today. So, yeah, I decided at that point that I needed to--. My son was graduating from high school, going on to college. He went to NC State, sorry--. He did. [Laughter]. Both my kids. So El Pueblo was advertising for a development director. I had to look up what development director was, and I thought, oh, I think I could do that. So, I interviewed with, at that time, Andrea Bassan was Executive Director, and Melanie Chernoff was Assistant. They interviewed me, again, saw something in me that I probably didn't see in myself, and they said: sure, come on, join us. And so, I took a half a salary cut in pay to go work at El Pueblo, which is not something I recommend to anybody. I'm sorry, you know. Now in my old age, I kind of miss that income I would have had at RTI. But notwithstanding, I didn’t gain money, but I gained me. Fiesta del Pueblo was the only fiesta with Lat--. At that time in the whole state. And so, we got the music, the comida. My daughter and I wouldn't miss a fiesta del pueblo before I got hired by them. And so, when I got hired, I made a commitment to take a certification course at Duke so that I could learn what a development director was supposed to do. And so, I'm happy to say that I kept the budget intact those two years that I was there, came pretty close to a million, if not more, of donations. And again, I just couldn't make my life work on the salary that a nonprofit paid at that time in my life. And so, my son was in college. I didn't realize that I was helping him pay for that. And so, it was hard. And so, I--. Again, a friend said, hey, look, there's this job at the state and it's got your name on it. It's you. And I'm like, okay, I'm not really looking for a job. I quit at El Pueblo—no, I was really looking for a job. I quit El Pueblo after the last fiesta of that year, 2005, 6, and I just need to chill.
DV: Actually, tell us more about El Pueblo. What kind of work was, does El Pueblo, or did El Pueblo do at the time?
NM: At the time, El Pueblo, like I said, we were like the only Latino advocate group out there, or at least visibly. So we did a lot of advocacies in terms of--. I remember, again, talking with state legislators, department chairmen on license, trying to get the license to be valid proof of residency regardless of your status. We did the Fiesta del Pueblo, which was the biggest thing, and we did a youth photo that I really miss. I don't see that anymore anywhere, but we used to do a youth photo and did it in Greensboro one year, we did it in Raleigh, I want to say Charlotte. But again, bringing young people in to have speakers and have them interact with each other and to grow. We had a lot of grants that we put together to work on things like literacy. We had a Smart Start grant that hired, who is now my best friend, Margarita Cassini, to go to the community, to trailers, to apartment complexes to talk about literacy and the importance of reading to children. We had a Susan G. Komen grant. My dear, dear, dear Colombian friend, Maria Eugenia Cerron, who passed away from cancer a couple years ago was our leader in that effort. So, again, we had a really, it was just a familia. I didn't have my familia here, and I hadn't had it while I was at RTI because I was all over the darn place. But here, that, I mean, I'm still, Melanie is still--. Melanie baked me a cake for my seventieth birthday. So, I mean, these are still people that I call family. And yeah, so that was what El Pueblo did for me. That was my richness. That was my, that's what I banked my retirement on. All those connections that I made those two or three years. And then I built on that when I got hired at the state. Again, my friend Carolyn Sexton hired me to work at Department—then the Division of Public Health, which is part of NC DHHS, working as a minority outreach specialist, a title that was just made up. There was no coordinator, there was no staff, it was just me. And we were trying to promote the state's children's health insurance program. At the time it had just been legislated by the Clinton Administration, and so we needed to get the word out to get--. I think the first year they only had like forty thousand slots, and they completely filled up.
DV: What year was this now?
NM: Early, mid-2000s; 5, 6, 7. And that range is when I started at the state. And again, with legislation and lobbying, both from organizations like NC Child, El Pueblo, and since we found lots of different groups started cropping up then across the state. AMEXCAN, I mean, just a whole bunch of Latino-led folks whose voices were now being listened to en masse at the state, at the general assembly. Those numbers grew and to the point where I think we had almost a hundred thousand children enrolled in our health check, it’s what we called it back then. I don't know what they're calling it now. But we were like 95% enrolled eligible children in the state when I left in 2019. So, I think, again, nothing I did--. But I had built this wonderful familia with El Pueblo and people that came to our Fiesta and then again, all these organizations that started developing, that across the state with, again, leadership from rural as well as urban areas in the state. Latin American Coalition in Charlotte. I mean, just True Bridge on the west end. I mean, all these wonderful organizations that supported the work that we were trying to do of getting families enrolled in Medicaid and CHIP. And then what I thought is my most successful point in that career, in my life, is when I went to an event at the Hmong, that the Hmong community had in Morganton--. In Hickory. And when I walked in I felt like I had walked into the Brotherhood Social Club, except that they spoke Hmong and not Spanish. And so, it was just like stepping back in time, realizing that they were doing just what my family, my parents, and that whole cohort had done for us, trying to make the community recognize that they're there, that they deserve services, that they are good people. They're just great. The men were all in their little suits and we're all talking, and they brought up the mayor and they brought up the county commissioner. And I said, gosh, I'm like I'm at the Brotherhood Social Club, but they're speaking Hmong. It's so amazing. And the women were over in the table making all of their wonderful dishes. And I just, I felt I had finally been successful because not only was I getting to my people, as I call them, mi gente, regardless of their nationality, but I was also reaching these other communities that also needed to be included. So when the refugee community honored me by saying that I was one of their--. One of them, I felt successful. Not just because I felt I owed it to my community to do what I was doing, but to include them and to make them feel welcomed and entitled, was really wonderful. So, yeah.
DV: That’s wonderful.
NM: Yeah. I retired.
DV: How long did you work for the state before you retired?
NM: Twelve years only. I just--. It was time. Age was the factor. I could collect Social Security, which was--. And I figured, I wasn't making a whole lot of money, but I wasn't making--. I mean, comparable to what I was making as a state employee. And so, I thought I could live on this. And again, I've never been very good at financial, very good at financial strategies for my life, but I'm happy. It doesn't matter. I'm happy. And so, I stopped in 2019. I took my grandson to D.C., my granddaughter to Wilmington. I went to Sedona, and then I went to Cuba to do one of my last mission trips that I've done, I've done Nicaragua, Guatemala, and I got to do Cuba just before COVID.
DV: Mission trips, what do you mean?
NM: Well, most of them were church related. Or in the case of Cuba, it's a Witness for Peace/solidarity, which was created by my dear friend, Gail Phares, back in the mid-80s when the Iran-Contra reality was happening in Latin America. And again, we’re so tied to the migration to the U.S., and the push and pull at the border, we don't see that all of that has to do with our policies in D.C. I mean, I'm a, like I said, I'm a citizen by an act of Congress, not because I or my people voted to be citizens, right. So, the mission trips are usually church groups or non-profits that will take a group of folks in the U.S. to a country to get to see how people live. And to understand the policies of America, the U.S., and how those policies affect the people living in these neighboring countries, our neighbors, our brothers and sisters. And so, Nicaragua, I went, I can't remember what year all of this. Guatemala was my first one, I went twice. And my son actually went on a mission trip his senior year in high school, and it makes you see--. Mission trips for me made me realize that we are really just all one. We’re all one, whatever your belief system is, if you believe in a God or don't believe, we're all--. When I went to Guatemala, I felt like I had gone back to Puerto Rico and my grandmother's stories of how my grandmother lived in this little hut with a dirt floor, and they would throw water on it to pat it down. That's what I was living in when I went to Guatemala fifty years later. And I'm like, we're all the same. We've had different histories maybe, different ways of getting to where we are. But--. pero somos uno. Somos uno en Dios, en el universo. We have that. There's a little DNA that just trickles through every person on the planet. We may look different. Our accents may be different. Our histories may be different. But basically, what we want is the same thing. It's happiness. What's that, what's the constitutional thing, the pursuit of happiness? Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Well, they got that right. I mean that really is what every human being wants: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And so mission trips let me see that. And Cuba was, again—my last name is Martí—so it was just awesome to drive into--. Fly into Martí International Airport. [Laughter]. I claim him as an uncle, but he was on that island and my family was from the other island. At some point the Martís from Europe were the same, and then they came through the Caribbean and settled in different islands. I always say he looks like my dad, when my dad was young, José Martí does. But anyway--. And just the struggle of the people of Cuba, and the struggle they're still living today, simply because we can't get over something that happened sixty years ago. It's just like, I don't know. I mean, people are starving and dying because of an ideology. That just doesn't seem right to me. It doesn't seem moral to me. I mean, we do it here, too, right? We have families who are hungry and starving that shouldn't have to be. But when you see it on an island, at the level--. And the spirit of the Cuban people is just amazing. And of all of the people, the Guatemalans, the Nicaraguans. Yeah, so I love that experience that my faith has brought into my, in my world. It complements the work that I do here, because, again, I've established good working relationships with the Guatemalan community, Nicaraguan, and Cuban. Sometimes we butt heads, but they're still my brothers and sisters. And so, it helps me do the work here as well.
This just reminds me that a couple of--. Last year, the NC Justice Center awarded me the Lifetime Defender of Justice Award. And when they called me, I thought, did you get the right number? I haven't done anything to defend justice. And so, it was like: yeah, Norma, you’ve been nominated and the board agreed that you should get this. And I'm like, I don't understand. And so, when I was telling all my friends, I said I don't understand why I got this award. And they're like, what do you mean you don't understand? And so, they started telling me, look, you've done this and this and this. And I'm like, yeah, but those were, I mean, they were my jobs, they were my faith. That was what I was supposed to be doing. I wasn't doing anything that I wasn't supposed to be doing. That we're not all supposed to be doing, right? And then they reminded me that not everybody does do everything that I do. And I said: oh, okay. Well then, okay, let's go! And so, I got three tables worth of friends to pay an outrageous amount of money to get a chicken dinner [Laughter], but to support the Justice Center and to receive the award with me, because it wasn't for me, it was for us as a community and as people that have struggled. So, I had some of my community health workers there. I had folks from DPH , and from different churches, and from Duke, and from UNC. I mean, again, everybody that's been a part of my world was invited to come and three tables worth of people showed up. So, I was pretty excited. That meant more to me than the award. [Laughter]. That did, yeah.
DV: Did you do the mission work for a long time, or is that something that you were doing after retirement?
NM: No, no, that's a thing I did while I was working.
DV: Okay.
NM: Yeah. 19--. 1999, 2000, 2001, I went to Guatemala.
DV: Oh, wow.
NM: 2017, I think, I went to Nicaragua. Oh, and then we went to Puerto Rico after the hurricane, as part of--. My own people needed help. And so, we went to Puerto Rico to help rebuild some homes of folks on the island. And then Cuba in 2019. It was the first one after retirement. The other ones were all done while I was working. Again, my job doesn't stop with the paycheck. It extends into the rest of the day and the world. I don't know, that's just how I've seen my life. It's all of it. It's what you do on Saturdays and Sundays. And, yeah, it's all of it.
DV: And I know that you didn't stay fully retired for long. [Laughter].
NM: Some would say I haven't retired. Yeah. Well, COVID came, and with COVID came a call from NC DHHS, one of my colleagues that I'd worked with had just been made Deputy Director, Ben Money. And Ben called me and said: we need you to help us. And I go, well, what's going on? I mean, I knew that--. I knew what was going on. I was, but what is it? He says: Norma, we have 75% of patients at Duke today that are Latino. And there's--. We're only 9% of the population. And I go, my God, what are you guys doing? How are you telling people? And he says, well, that's why I'm calling you. I want you to come on board and help us. And so I thought it was a volunteer thing because, again, I don't think of money as I should, but I don't. He says no, we want you to come back, we know you're retired so maybe part-time. I go, oh, okay, you're going to pay me. Yeah, sure, I'll do it. And so, but they paid me. But what I did was, that money, I gave it to people who were not working and who were, who needed groceries and whatever. Because I figured it wasn't supposed to be for me, it was supposed to be to help the community. So, I did. I mean, I helped me, too. I went to the beach, probably more than I've ever gone to the beach in North Carolina, for my sanity. But it was really great working with Dr. Cohen and her team of deputy directors. They stepped up. We would tell Dr. Cohen that the community had a concern in whatever, Durham, Hickory, whatever, at 8 o'clock at night, and that woman would be on a Zoom call with us to answer every single question, and she followed up with every single complaint that was given by the community. The first week that I came on board, she told us at the end of this week, I want you to give away a half a million dollars so that we can get organizations to start giving the message out. So, we did. We gave five organizations $100,000. And I told them, help us get the word out, help us create the right messages, help us to do this work, and I am so proud of that work that they did. I didn't do--. I didn't create any of that. They did it all, and we curved it. I mean, we got it. We got the place where the Latino population, by the time I left, a year later—was only supposed to be for six months, it turned out to be a year—the numbers were at least, by the time we had a vaccination available, the numbers of Latinos who had vaccinated was higher than any of the other groups in the state. And so, for that, I am eternally grateful, eternally grateful. And again, as with everything, you don't do a job and walk away. You let the institution know where their holes are. And there was holes that you had to call somebody in from retirement to help you reach out to a community? Why don't you have a position in the department, hello, that already has the pulse of the community and can tell you what needs to be told and can reach out immediately. I mean, like we did within a week. But again, I wasn't part of the department at that point. I was brought in. And so, yeah, so they listened and we, they're listening. And we have some really great people at NCDHHS today. You need more, but we have some really good folks there.
DV: Thanks for sharing all of that, Norma. Considering all of these experiences, what would you say were some of the challenges and barriers that you faced in your journey? How have you addressed them?
NM: I think the challenge is understanding what you're walking into. And again, if you don't have the skill set because of your education, then go find that skill set. Take a course. Get a certificate. Always, always, always speak up when something is a deficit. Don't take it on as another task to do on top of what you were hired to do. And I think that's the hardest thing to do. It’s like, can you take a look at this translation? You know, there are professionals that do that. I'll take a look at this today, but I think you need to--. I can give you some names and numbers and contacts for you to get a professional person to be looking at this translation. And so, it's those challenges, it's doing what you're charged to do and not more. Again, I never got paid more for being bilingual. I know I never was at the top of the payroll scale. And yet there were many times I was doing two jobs, one in English and one in Spanish. So yeah, that I think is the biggest thing. Prepare yourself, educate yourself, and don't let people use you. Stand up for what you know is your space and not just feel like: I've got to hold on to this job, so I've got to do what they're telling me. I've been blessed that every job I've had I've loved. But that doesn't mean each one of them didn't offer challenges. Like I said, the racism will slap you in the face. You take the slap, but then you just move forward and find a way to educate that person that slapped you so that they don't do it again, or at least not to your face. So, I don't know. Does that make sense?
DV: Yeah, yeah, it does. Thank you. Turning that around, instead of thinking of challenges; you've spoken of angels that helped you along the way. Besides the angels, what are some of the main factors that you can pinpoint that you think have helped you? It could be something abstract, like a way of thinking, or tangible, specific people like you mentioned.
NM: Yeah, I've mentioned all the, I think I've mentioned all the people, if not, forgive me. Those of you who know me who helped me, if I didn't mention you. It's been a long trajectory. So, I think it's we are not--. Again, I'm talking my generation of Latina women. We were not taught that we could do anything other than maybe be a mother, maybe be a wife. I mean, those were the expected roles. And I love my children. I love being an abuelita. I mean, that's like my favorite job today. But that is not all who we are. We are, we have a passion inside of us. And whatever that passion is, find a way to express it. Don't let anybody block you from--. I mean we have limitations. Obviously, I would have loved to finish my master's and always wanted a doctorate, so never did all that, but I never let that stop me from seeking opportunities that were presented to me and saying: well I don't know, maybe I could do that. I could do that. And I did do that. And I did do that not by myself, but again, by educating myself and seeking partners that had the resources or the skill sets that maybe I didn't have. Finding partners is probably the most important thing in terms of barriers because you're not going to knock it down by yourself. Hundreds of people have tried that for centuries. And I look at the African-American experience in North Carolina, and as--. What, three hundred, four hundred, five, four hundred years if my math is right, four hundred-plus years of constant, constant, constant, constant, constant, constant, constant drilling down on a people. To me, it's--. They're my heroes. The fact that they survived all of that negativity and God-awfulness that was imposed on them. And it's the same thing with our people. We've had some pretty nasty shit thrown at us in the decades of the United States of America. But we have to--. We're here and we're not going anywhere. This is our country. This is our home. This is where my grandchildren will make a difference in the world. From here, they will make a difference in the world. And so, be proud of that heritage, but don't let anybody diminish it. And teach them, as much as learn from them, teach them. Yeah, yeah, that's pretty abstract.
DV: Thank you.
NM: But I can't put it into like go do A, B, C. Whatever that teaching opportunity is for you, whether it's a certificate, whether it's a couple of classes. I mean, my latest thing is meditation. My goal in life now for the next however many years I'm allowed to breathe on this planet is to ask my Latina women, my daughters and my nieces and my nephews, and boys too, the nephews and the sons, to take a deep breath. And to find that inner peace that is there and whatever you want to call it; God, energy, spirit, whatever you want to call it, there is this force within all of us that's just really divine. And if you let it come out, people may see it. You may not see it, but other people will see it. And so, give yourself that time to just pause, reflect, and then go do something. It's not just say it, do it.
DV: So this is what you've been up to lately, meditation?
NM: Yeah. Well, my NC CEAL work is winding down. I had a wonderful review with Wake Forest University that's doing, for the first time ever, a Spanish language intervention called Pain Trainer for people with major pain or terminal pain that medication doesn't always resolve, it’s an eight-module intervention on finding that place of tranquility and calmness within you and not focusing on the pain. It's a wonderful medical intervention, right. You're talking about meditation as a tool in the world of health. And so, they've translated into Spanish. It's been wonderful being on that team at Wake Forest. Again, they had it professionally translated, but then they brought together this group of folks, me and ten other people across the state from different nationalities to look at it, to make sure that language spoke to all of our nationalities and that the people on the computer screen look like us. So, yeah, that's been a wonder. It's finished, but it's a wonderful project. Stay tuned and look for it. Again, it'll be online. It'll be free. I've done some work with Duke along the same lines in terms of meditation and training. I'm finishing a certificate with the Chopra Center on Meditation. Deepak Chopra is probably one of the most renowned U.S. medical doctors has addressed the value of meditation as a health equalizer. Again, it brings down all the bad things and brings up all the good things. So, blood pressure, heart, chronic disease, all those measures will lessen if you spend some time meditating. And so, my goal is, in the next four or five years, is to have that Casa de la Abuelita, where I can teach meditation to my girls. To all the women and men, Latinos. I am going to be a little segregationist about it. I really want to focus on the Latino population and teaching us to breathe, to see that inner beauty that's in all of us and that strength that we have inherited from our ancestors. Yeah, that's what I hope I can do in the next decade or so.
DV: That's awesome. Norma, I think we skipped your work with NC CEAL. Can you tell us a bit about how that's been going on?
NM: Sure, that's been the last two years, and it's been wonderful work. Year one, we were still kind of the tail-end, middle-end. Vaccination was going.
56:30 DV: First--. So you were working for the state and then you left that. They were hiring other folks to take over. So, was it immediately after that you started working for NC CEAL?
NM: Actually, I took the NC CEAL job thinking that I would be done with the state job in December. So I started in January of 2021.
DV: Oh, okay.
NM: But then they didn't hire the persons, the people, and so the state asked me to stay for a few more months, and so I was kind of double, double. But this isn't a job, it's not like nine to five, it's really just a, it's an honorarium that we get from UNC School of Medicine, Center for Community Partnerships and Health, I think is what CCPH stands for. So, I was able to do that. And those first few months was really just recruiting a team to work with us to help create materials that were still needed in our Latino community. And so, again, because of the work that I've done in the state, my dear friend Dr. Krista Perreira called me and says: come and join us on NC CEAL. I'd like you to be--. She's the academic co-lead, the community co-lead for the Latino, Latinx Community Response team. And so, what we did in year one was we brought together ten young--. And I told her, Krista, we need young people. She says, what? I said anybody under forty? Because, again, we want to build up the leadership of the Latino community. It's okay to get the executive directors of all of these organizations, but they're busy. Let's get some of the people that work with them, but that need to maybe get some leadership and connect with each other as leaders, young leaders in the state. And so, we got ten folks together. They're a wonderful team. I would name them all out, but I'll forget one of them. I should have brought my list of them, but I don't want to forget any of them. But again, from north, south, east, and west of North Carolina, all of them working either community colleges or nonprofit organization. Again, we covered every nationality we could of the Latino world. And we, what's missing in the messaging for COVID. And so, everything was like, it's just too complicated. I mean, it's too many words, too much, people just want bullets. And so we ran across a colleague at Arizona State University, Dr. Gilbert Lopez, who had begun a series of cómicas, animated cómicas, with the gentleman that did Coco, the movie [Laughter].
DV: Wow.
NM: Did some of the animations of the original ones. And so, he needed additional funding to create some more of these animations. And so, as a team, we agreed that we could use our money for that to happen. So, and we gave them the themes. We gave them five themes. One was the importance of masking, the importance of vaccination of young people, because it was just beginning to give it to little--. The five-to-eleven-year-olds. Mental health as a result of the isolation. The chip myth that they're putting a chip in us because they're going to go out to get us. And, oh gosh, I can't remember what the fourth one was, the fifth one, but we created these wonderful--. We? The animation team that Arizona had contracted created them. We as a team made sure that the words were the words we wanted to have. So, we have these wonderful, rich characters: Tio Rigo, Doctora Susana, Mama Lucha, the Abuelita. It's just, it was, they're just beautiful characters that represent, I mean, they tend to be a little Tex-Mex. But even as a Puerto Rican, I felt like I could relate to anyone, I could relate to the Abuelita, she is me. And so, I thought, okay, this is great. So, we created the animations. And then on a fluke, again, you just ask. Sometimes you're afraid to ask. I asked the animation company. I said these are great, but we don't always have connectivity in our rural parts. I said, well, how much more would it cost us if you printed them into like little cómicas? And he's like, we'll just throw that in. We'll send you the file. That's no big deal. It didn't cost us anything except the printing, which again, we had to pay for printing. And then we ended up one day at El Centro Hispano, like four of us, boxing them so that we could ship them to all the other, the other rest of the team. And then we realized we didn't have money to ship them. And so, I took some and, and Prudencia took some, and Hilda took some, and we all took some, and on our way home or whenever we were in that part of the state, we dropped off boxes to our colleagues so that they would have their cómicas to pass out at festivals, at vaccination events, at anything they were doing COVID-related. Those were a big hit, so much so that La Conexión, the Conexión USA newspaper here in North Carolina, took them and for every week in, I want to say, end of November-December 2021, they published a full page of the Comica with a QR code. Is that what they're called? That if you clicked on it, it would take you to their website and then you could see the animation of the Comica, right. Same thing, but one is visually and sound and the other one you have to know how to read, right? So, it was amazing the volume of hits that we got on those animations. So that was our success story for year one. And then for year two, the funding was different, and we ended up just having an African American Latino group, so it was only three or four Latinos, three or four African Americans. It was a little harder to get to what was still missing of the messaging of COVID at that point. We're in 2022, vaccines have been out. The boosters are out. So, we focused on little kids, right, because the rate of vaccination of little kids is so low. And we all agreed that we would create a multi-ethnic, multi-racial coloring book with a lot of the same kid characters that were in our original series. So, we still have the Doctora Susana, and this time she's talking to the kids that were in the series before, in the other five cómicas. And yeah, yeah, disclaimer that I did use the names of my children [laughter] on the cómicas because I could give parental consent without a problem, right? [Laughter]. So, I used their first names at least so that you have a Bianca and a Saul character. And they just, they did this really great coloring, the verbal part of it, the team came up with, right. And we got it approved by the doctors to make sure we were saying the protocol that was correct for masking and getting your vaccinations and stuff. And then we got a local artist, a Latino artist, to do the illustration. Rafael Osuba, who is a Raleighite, I think he lives in Raleigh, did the animation out of his company. He and another animator did the whole thing. So, it's all, again, created locally by a local group of Latinos and African Americans. The words came out of them, and then the animation came out of the local Latino artists. So that's our latest claim to fame. And then we did, as part of year two, a series of trainings on the importance of mental health, because, again, the team felt that that was the one thing that we could still do a lot with in terms of COVID, is to let people know that this isolation and survival, if you survived infection changed you and changed your family. And you need, and you may need help, and you may need to talk about it. So, we sent--. We had sixty slots for community health workers to do a twelve-hour training, so we did it in three four-hour sessions. En Español, one, and then two in English. And we trained--. Of the sixty slots, again, they had to come to all three sessions, and we paid them, of course, to do this because we don't--. That's their time, and either they're missing work or they could use the money, as we all can, right. So, they were paid to take the training. So, these promotoras de salud took the training and we have, I think, about forty-some that took all three sessions out of the 60. And so, they now have this wonderful toolkit of how to talk to people about approaching their mental health and the resource, like where to go to get a professional, a practitioner. So, hopefully, if we get funded for year three, we're going to take that up a notch and continue working with the community health workers.
DV: That’s wonderful.
NM: Again, challenges, universities are a bureaucracy, just like the state is a bureaucracy. Things don't happen quickly. You don't get paid on the day, on the calendar. It's whenever it gets processed by all of the different departments and somebody signs it and says it's okay. But eventually people do get their money, and eventually we do get a product and we can share it with the community. So, it's the consistency and the hitting--. Knocking on that door, knocking, knocking, knocking, knocking, until somebody opens it and does what they need to do with it. Because these are our dollars, these are federal dollars we pay into the federal pocket, all of us, whether we're documented or not documented, we all pay into the federal coffers. And so, these projects should involve and recompense the people participating appropriately. And we made sure that, as part of the NC CEAL effort, every time we use community members they were being paid for their time. Not a lot, but they were getting paid, which is important. Yeah, so that's kind of like my--. When I'm not meditating, I'm working on NC CEAL stuff.
DV: You keep busy.
NM: I keep busy. And I have grandchildren. I have a one-year-old, an eight-year-old, and a ten-year-old, soon to be eleven. So, they also keep me busy. And I'm blessed. I'm rich. I am the richest woman in Raleigh.
DV: [Laughter]. That's great. Your story is very inspiring. And as you know, we are doing a series on Latino leaders, and this is why I'm talking to you. So, I wanted to ask you what leadership means to you. How would you define that? If you think about your experiences, what do you think leadership means to you?
NM: To me, it's collaboration. It's looking for a door, a window, someone to show you that door or for you to show them that door that needs, that has a need behind it. It means doing the work but also asking for help. I think leadership is you, the you in unity, okay? Not only with what you see around you; helping to lift everyone that crosses your path, not just yourself. And you fail if you're just doing it for you, whatever that may be, but if you're doing it because you see all these other people that need to be lifted, that need to walk through that door with you. That to me is, again, the leadership is you, all of you, in unity with what you see around you. Again, lifting everyone that crosses your path, not just yourself.
DV: You had mentioned to me once, well, before, during our pre-interview, that you were proud of having opened doors for others behind you. Well, that's wonderful.
NM: Yeah, that's my claim to fame. Yeah, I hope I've done that for my children as well as for the folks who are not my children. But again, just reflecting, we need to stand tall. We need to be proud of who you are. And I don't know that I always was in my twenties and thirties, and maybe until I came to North Carolina in my forties. I think that's when I started to realize that there was all this potential, there's all these things out there. Like I realized that I should have had a Master's in Public Health because I love what public health does, right? My mom and dad did a lot by coming to the states. They sacrificed; all of our ancestors paved the way for us. So, I see it as my job, your job, all of our jobs to pave the way for that next generation of Latino leaders. Stay tall, be proud of who you are, the hard work that all of your family has done. I mean you may not see it as doing it for you, but they've given up a lot of their lives for you to have the life that you have. So, take all of that and don't let it go to waste. Pave the way not only for yourself—make yourself better at every step—but also bring other people along with you as you're moving along that timeline.
DV: Thank you so much Norma for sharing your story with us.
NM: Thank you for letting me, it's been such fun sharing and remembering what I can. [Laughter]. Of this long and wonderful life of Norma Martí. Gracias, Daniel, gracias.
DV: No, gracias a ti, Norma.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Transcribers: Sofia Godoy & Daniel Velásquez
Interview Date: 2023 May 31
Date of Transcription: 2023 August 28 / Revisions: 2023 September 22
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
R-1010 -- Martí, Norma.
Description
An account of the resource
At a young age, Norma Martí migrated with her family from Puerto Rico to a diverse, working-class neighborhood in northwestern Indiana, part of metropolitan Chicago. She shares her formative experiences there, what enabled her to attain a college education, and her encounters with discrimination in her first role as an educator. She subsequently worked for the Census Bureau in Illinois and the Research Triangle Institute (RTI) in North Carolina, enhancing both organizations’ reach of Latino communities. In the late 1990s, Norma decided to focus on advocacy and outreach as Development Director for El Pueblo, a nonprofit organization based in Raleigh. By the mid-2000s, in a new role as Minority Outreach Specialist for the North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services (NC DHHS), Norma leveraged the connections she had built with various Latino organizations to expand Medicaid and children’s health insurance in Latino communities across the state. In 2020, Norma was called back from retirement to NC DHHS to help coordinate the agency’s COVID-19 response in the Latinx population. She has continued that work through her current role as Latinx Community Co-Lead for COVID Response for North Carolina’s Community Engagement Alliance (NC CEAL). She concludes by calling for unity and perseverance in Latino communities, and sharing words of wisdom for future leaders, which will include her grandchildren.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-05-31
Publisher
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29346">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
R1010_Audio.mp3
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/bbaa7027aa9b0116833cfdec698b7bde.mp3
7a2656a962bbcbd1c4aaeed8a767a2e6
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/f97f09cee853b25539c4ea20d249794f.pdf
a122b0ea06101af26b3c78d17c90446f
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-1009
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
Fecha
2023-04-05
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Olivieri-Robert, Luis.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Civil servants
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1962
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Male
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Carolina -- Puerto Rico
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Durham -- Durham County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-65.95604705810547 18.381444931030273),1962,1;POINT(-78.89910888671875 35.99592971801758),2002,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Velásquez, Daniel.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Luis Olivieri-Robert is Community Relations Analyst for the City of Raleigh, a role through which he has served Latine and migrant communities since moving to North Carolina from his native Puerto Rico in 2002. He recounts his early life, educational experiences, and professional development in Puerto Rico and the continental U.S., having taught at the university level in both settings. Throughout, Luis highlights his international travel, life-long commitment with environmental responsibility, activism related to Puerto Rico’s independence, and his faith and Church involvement as key formative experiences that continue to inform his endeavors. Working for the City of Raleigh, he and his team have strived to be the “first channel of information” for Latine newcomers, connecting people with city services and housing and work opportunities. Luis has also been involved in numerous outreach initiatives, from celebrations like the Viva Raleigh Festival to educational efforts to expand civic participation like the Raleigh Neighborhood College. He describes his activities outside the City and recognizes challenges he has faced, such as remaining motivated in the face demoralizing social developments. Lastly, he encourages future leaders to seek mentorship, seize educational opportunities, and take on issues that align with their goals and passions.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Luis Olivieri-Robert by Daniel Velásquez, 05 April 2023, R-1009, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29343
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Activism; Community and social services and programs; Education; Leadership; Migratory experience
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Funcionarios públicos
Es: Género de entrevistado
Hombre
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Luis Olivieri-Robert es Analista de Relaciones Comunitarias para la Ciudad de Raleigh, cargo por el cual ha servido a las comunidades latinas y migrantes desde que se trasladó de su natal Puerto Rico a Carolina del Norte en el 2002. Relata sus primeros años de vida, sus experiencias educativas y su desarrollo profesional en Puerto Rico y en los Estados Unidos continentales, habiendo enseñado a nivel universitario en ambos lugares. Asimismo, Luis destaca sus viajes internacionales, su compromiso continuo con la responsabilidad medioambiental, su activismo en torno a la independencia de Puerto Rico y su fe e involucración en la Iglesia como experiencias formativas fundamentales que siguen influyendo en sus esfuerzos. En su trabajo para la ciudad de Raleigh, él y su equipo se han esforzado por ser el “primer canal de información” para los latinos recién llegados, poniendo en contacto a la gente con los servicios municipales y con oportunidades de vivienda y trabajo. Luis también ha participado en numerosas iniciativas de alcance, desde celebraciones como el Festival Viva Raleigh hasta esfuerzos educativos para ampliar la participación cívica como el Curso de Gobierno Local. Describe además sus actividades fuera de la ciudad y reconoce los retos a los que se ha enfrentado, como mantenerse motivado ante acontecimientos sociales desmoralizadores. Por último, anima a los futuros líderes a buscar mentores, aprovechar cualquier oportunidad educativa y emprender luchas contra problemas que encajen con sus objetivos y pasiones.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Luis Olivieri-Robert por Daniel Velásquez, 05 April 2023, R-1009, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Activismo; Educación; Experiencia migratoria; Liderazgo; Programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Daniel Velásquez: Yo soy Daniel Velásquez. Estoy aquí con Luis Olivieri-Robert quien es el Community Relations Analyst, o Analista de Relaciones Comunitarias de la Ciudad de Raleigh, y hoy fue miércoles abril 3 del 2023. Luis, muchas gracias por sentarte conmigo y compartir tu historia.
Luis Olivieri-Roberts: Gracias Daniel por tu presencia y esta oportunidad de compartir un poquito de mi historia de vida.
DV: Gracias, bueno empecemos con lo básico. Cuéntame sobre tus antecedentes personales, en general donde naciste y creciste etc.
LO: Bueno nací de mi madre y padre en Puerto Rico, Carolina, Puerto Rico en el año ’62. Mi padre entonces era pastor bautista en Rio Grande, un municipio al oeste de San Juan. Pero mi madre tenía su médico personal en Carolina, por lo cercano, y ahí nací en una clínica privada, una oficina. Ahí estuvimos hasta dos años y de ahí entonces fuimos a--. Bueno, me trajeron a Boston. Mi papa era pastor de obreros migrantes en esa época. Ahí fui muy influenciado por todas las ideas de Martin Luther King, y a los dos años, año y medio, regresamos a Puerto Rico, y ahí es donde estuve prácticamente hasta que me fui a hacer una segunda maestría en Florida State en el año ’86. Pues básicamente puedo decir que sí, nací en Puerto Rico, me crie en Puerto Rico, aunque esas experiencias de Boston de buena manera todavía recuerdo algo bien leve. Viajes que hacíamos frecuentemente ya en mis años ocho hasta los quince años, todo eso me ayudó mucho, pero nací en Puerto Rico, me crié ahí y ahí prácticamente hice mis estudios de escuela elemental, secundaria, o el kínder. Elemental, secundaria, la escuela superior y mis estudios de bachillerato, como decían en Puerto Rico “undergrad,” también los hice en Puerto Rico, y una primera maestría en estudios de Puerto Rico y el Caribe.
DV: En Puerto Rico la primera maestría--.
LO: Sí.
DV: ¿Y luego la segunda fue en Florida?
LO: La segunda, bueno termino los “undergrad” en los ’84, hago esa primera maestría en centro de estudios avanzados en San Juan en el ’84 a ’86, y en Florida State el ’86 hasta el ’88. En esa época trabajé un tiempo de maestro “part-time,” pero era estudiante. No tomé básicamente una pausa sino que quería hacer la maestría. Mi padre estaba haciendo un doctorado en Florida State desde el ’84. Se fue un año a hacer su residencia, y cuando ya terminamos entonces yo llego a hacer esa maestría que ya terminé para el ’88. Después hice otros estudios acá en NC State. Hice una maestría en español, 2004, 2006, y después completé una maestría en educación en el 2010, enfocada en educación de adultos, también en NC State. He hecho certificados graduados en teología aquí en el Southern Baptist, Gordon Conwell, ambos online. Y ahora estoy en “doctorate” en teología, hay un interés especifico por ese tema: iglesia y sociedad. Pero sí, en pocas palabras soy puertorriqueño y llevo aquí ya prácticamente veintiún años de mi vida. Llegué casi a los cuarenta a North Carolina y mis hijos básicamente crecieron aquí. Llegaron a los seis y a los once. Ya tienen veintinueve y treinta y cuatro, pero siguen sintiendo mucho por, pues por México y Puerto Rico, somos una familia combinada o mezclada, “borimex” como decimos, ¿no?
DV: ¿Y que finalmente te trajo a Carolina del Norte entonces?
LO: Mira, en el ’95 supimos que mi suegra tenía un primo que estaba aquí en Carolina del Norte. Era misionero metodista, ya tendría, para esa época, unos setenta años y seguía activo. Y entonces la invitó a venir para que conociera y mi suegra vino en otoño y le encantó el otoño, los colores todo eso. Regresó fascinada ella. Estuvo con nosotros en Puerto Rico ayudándonos con los niños porque ambos trabajábamos en la universidad tiempo completo. Y este--. Pues recuerdo que volaron de San Juan a Raleigh. Había un vuelo directo de American, y estuvieron aquí creo que una semana. En esa época Raleigh era un “hub” de American, y por eso ella voló directo. Y le encantó, y vinimos entonces, en diciembre de ese año ’95. Vinimos de visita. Ya estaba aquí un cuñado mío con su esposa y sus hijos. Mi tío los había invitado a venir y habían conseguido un trabajo. Tenían visa, pero eso era todo. Cuando la visa se expiró se supone que regresarían a México. Nunca regresaron, obviamente. Aquí nació su tercer hijo de mi cuñado, uno de mis cuñados, entonces mi tío pues lo apoya. Viene su esposa con los hijos. Interesante porque la esposa hace un video que tenía una parte cómica. Envía el video a un concurso que había en México de “funny home videos,” como videos cómicos, y gana el segundo premio.
DV: Wow.
LO: Nacional. Y con el dinero que le dan, y le regalan una VHS que era la más moderna, en ese momento era la “state of the art.” Con ese dinero compró los pasajes y vienen acá y hasta el día hoy. Mi cuñado murió, pero ella sigue aquí y los hijos han crecido y hay nietos. Pero por ahí viene esa conexión con el estado. Venimos ese diciembre ’95 y nos toca vivir la experiencia del “Big Blizzard,” una tormenta que hubo bien fuerte.
DV: Wow.
LO: Íbamos en autobús a ver unos amigos en Missouri y nos toca manejar. Yo por primera vez manejar en la nieve. Lo que hice fue que me fui detrás de los “trailers” para que ellos fueran limpiando la carretera y yo detrás a una distancia aceptable. Nos tocó parar a comer en un Sonic, creo que era a las dos de la mañana, estaban sirviendo. La muchacha salía y la temperatura yo veía está en cinco grados y esta está sirviendo afuera. [Laughter]. Pero es su trabajo, imagino. Entonces por ahí vino esas primeras experiencias con Carolina del Norte. Regresamos a Puerto Rico y en el 1999, 2000, mi suegra le dice a mi esposa, “¿oye porque no vamos un año a Carolina?” Ya estaban aquí dos cuñados, había más familias que se habían establecido aquí en un condado rural de la frontera con Virginia, Rockingham County. Y yo le pregunté a mi esposa, ¿pues si quieres váyanse ustedes un año adelante, no? Viven la experiencia y yo voy a estar yendo cada vez que tengo una oportunidad. Y en el 2000 ya empiezo a hacer los planes para venir. Empiezo a enviar solicitudes de trabajo, más de veinte. Hasta que una que envié a la Ciudad de Raleigh, ahí me invitaron a entrevista. Vine una vez a entrevista, vine a una segunda, y en esa segunda ya se me ofrece el puesto.
DV: No vivías aun cuando estabas--.
LO: No, todavía la primera entrevista estaba en Puerto Rico.
DV: ¿Y todavía ejercías en la universidad?
LO: Sí, recuerdo que estaba chequeando los emails de estudiantes y en eso entra un email de Raleigh y yo qué loco, ¿no? Dice, “puedes venir a una entrevista tan pronto como puedas,” y yo acabó de estar allá la semana pasada porque fui a ver a mi hijo, mi esposa, creo que era el receso de acción de gracias o el “Fall break,” pero sí. Y ahí mismo me puse a buscar pasaje. En esa época la ruta era a Greensboro. Era lo más cerca del condado donde vivían.
DV: ¿Cual condado era?
LO: Rockingham, Rockingham County, al norte de Greensboro. Ya para diciembre del 2001 dejo mi trabajo en Puerto Rico. Enseñaba en cuatro diferentes universidades. Dejo la posibilidad de una plaza, ya como dicen “tenure,” una plaza como tal. Un sistema muy politizado y muy complicado, pero yo era el próximo para la plaza. Y conseguí el trabajo acá y empecé el catorce de enero del 2002, aquí en la Ciudad de Raleigh.
DV: ¿Y cuál era tu título en ese momento?
LO: En esa época, cuando llego, estaban buscando alguien que fuera el Latino Liaison, el Enlace Latino. Y la tarjeta que me hicieron, el “business card,” la tarjeta de presentación, decía Human Resources Technician, era la clasificación que existía para el puesto. Obviamente era en un salario aceptable, creo que eran cuarenta mil dólares y dije pues sí. Eso me ganaba en Puerto Rico enseñando en tres universidades. Los beneficios, pues sí, definitivamente fue algo muy atractivo. A los pocos meses, siendo yo Coordinador de Iniciativas Latinas, me ofrecen un ascenso a, era Community Services Specialist, y dije pues sí. Y eso implicó un ascenso también en un aumento en salario. Seguí dirigiendo Iniciativas Latinas, pero se vino alguien que trabajó junto conmigo y ya hicimos un equipo. Y hasta así ha sido prácticamente hasta hace los meses atrás. Éramos dos personas siempre a cargo de Iniciativas Latinas aquí en Raleigh, educación, promoción de programas, información, contacto con la comunidad, contacto con grupos, organizaciones. Y he visto cómo la población hispana ha crecido en Raleigh. No solo en el estado sino también en Raleigh.
DV: ¿Cómo fue esa transición de trabajar en un ámbito académico, como dices enseñabas en tres universidades, y luego trabajar para la ciudad, para el gobierno?
LO: Bueno algo que ellos valoraron en mí cuando me entrevistaron aquí en Raleigh era primero mi experiencia de educación. Porque se supone que uno iba a planificar o programar talleres o sesiones educativas para la comunidad. Pues, tiene experiencia enseñando, debe saber cómo planificar un currículo, un programa. Número dos, había estado colaborando con mi cuñado en la iglesia siempre que veníamos y yo hacía interpretación. Ah mira, conoce los dos idiomas puede interpretar también. Y en un momento dado en la ciudad era básicamente uno de los pocos que podía hacer traducción porque conocía el idioma. Eventualmente cuando estudié en NC State estudié un curso de traducción y eso también le dio más valor a mi destreza. Pero sí fue un cambio en el sentido de que en la academia uno tiene que buscar cuando hacer publicaciones, eso es lo que te da los ascensos. Cuando hacen la conferencia de presentación, sí, bueno, es padre, pero eso no te asegura acenso en rango. Era un ambiente diverso en el sentido de ideas, de formas de pensamiento. Aquí me vine a tocar con un ambiente diverso, pero en cuanto a orígenes; mexicano, guatemalteco, salvadoreño, entonces nunca me había expuesto a una diversidad en un mismo lugar. Me había expuesto a la diversidad porque viajaba a diferentes países con mi familia. Entonces fue algo bien único y contrastante quizás. El poder ver a Puerto Rico desde afuera. Ya había tenido esa experiencia cuando me había ido a estudiar a Florida State. Veo a Puerto Rico desde afuera, una experiencia completamente diferente. Estaba comprometido políticamente con la independencia y con el ambiente, defensa del ambiente. Y todavía creo que sigo muy con eso. Entonces ver ahora a Puerto Rico desde Carolina del Norte también son otras experiencias. Pero sí, como tú dices, fue un contraste de trabajar con estudiantes y con colegas profesores a trabajar con una comunidad diversa. No solamente el origen, pero también la preparación académica. Gente con grados profesionales, gente con educación universitaria. Gente con quizás apenas tercer, cuarto grado, o nada. Gente que escribe y lee, gente que no puede escribir quizás, o no ha aprendido a escribir, pero para eso tienes que tener una mente y un corazón bien abierto. Y eliminas todo tipo de prejuicio, supera las diferencias en deporte. El soccer, el balompié. [Laughter]. Tienes que superar esas diferencias a nivel de CONCACAF para poder ponerte a que estás hablando con gente como tú, es por encima de diferencias de países.
DV: Cuéntame de algunas de tus experiencias profesionales o de liderazgo previas. Algunos detalles que quieras contar.
LO: Mira, haciendo memoria recuerdo que quizás de las primeras experiencias de liderazgo como tal en Puerto Rico sería con la juventud, se llamaba la Unión de Jóvenes Bautistas de Puerto Rico, era una unión nacional. Yo estaba en el distrito este, que era San Juan y la periferia, la capital y periferia. Ahí llegué a ser vicepresidente de la unión. En mi iglesia local éramos un equipo de liderazgo que planificamos el plan de trabajos, retiros, campamentos, excursiones, diferentes temas, ya fuera que lo hiciéramos nosotros o invitáramos a alguien. Pues esa fue otra experiencia de liderazgo que recuerdo. En el año ’90, como parte del comité del Día Del Planeta, era la primera vez que en Puerto Rico se hacía una celebración oficial del Día Del Planeta, el “Earth Day.” Eso es algo que no se había hecho antes. Antes se habían hecho quizás algún tipo de manifestación o protesta en defensa del ambiente. De los años ’70 por lo menos que yo recuerde. Mi papá me llevo a una en el ’71.
DV: ¿Siempre te ha interesado el tema del ambiente?
LO: Si, no--.
DV: ¿Específicamente de Puerto Rico?
LO: Bueno en general la tierra, los recursos naturales, la tierra como parte de la creación, pero también como compañera tuya de tu vida. No vivimos en el espacio, estamos en un planeta y creo que eso ha sido parte de su influencia. Vengo de familia que siempre ha cosechado algo. Café comercialmente pero también en su casa siempre ha habido siempre una huerta. Siempre hemos tenido algo, aunque sea orégano y cilantro, pero algo que hay que cultivar. Esa experiencia con el planeta tierra que mi esposa también estuvo muy activa también fue tipo de liderazgo. Juntar artistas, músicos, grupos activistas, y reunir cinco mil personas. Pensamos que fue un éxito siendo una primera vez que se hacía, en un parque de la capital, Parque Luis Muñoz Marín. A nivel político estuve activo con el partido independentista puertorriqueño del ’80, que fue mi primer voto. Pero mi padre pues ya, y mi madre--. Ya me habían enseñado esa conciencia y compromiso por la patria. Mi padre había estado activo en el ’73 en la lucha contra la presencia de la marina de guerra en la Isla de Culebra. Recuerdo que van a Culebra, él nos cuenta después, establecen una capilla en lo que era la Playa Flamingo, que en esa época era una playa ocupada por la marina, era territorio que no podías pasar. Hoy en día es unos lugares que más la gente visita en Culebra, se ha rescatado para el uso del turista y el local también. Mi padre regresa el sábado porque el domingo tenía que reportarse en la iglesia, era el pastor de la Iglesia Bautista de la Capital de San Jan, y ese día los arrestan a los que quedaron en el campamento. Y estuvieron tres meses presos. Entre ellos Rubén Berríos y Luis Rivera-Pagán que eran líderes del independentismo y muy conocidos. Entonces con el PIP, cuando comienzo a hacer mi primer voto en los ’80s, siempre estuve involucrado en algunos eventos que se hacían en defensa de la tierra, cuestiones ambientales, la cuestión de la lucha contra lo nuclear en los ’80s fue muy fuerte. Habíamos de los que estábamos--.
DV: ¿Las armas nuclearas?
LO: Si las armas nucleares, exacto. Y también la construcción de plantas nucleares o incineradores, que es algo que siempre hemos combatido. En la escuela fue un tipo de arco diferente. Yo era parte de la juntilla. La juntilla eran los que faltábamos a clase y nos íbamos por ahí a--. Como decíamos a pasar el rato, no a una esquina. No era exactamente positivo, pero sí creo que fue también oportunidad de cómo crear comunidad en sentido de pertenencia. Fui líder quizás en elemento deportivo, siempre estuvo activo como atleta de pista y campo, la pesa, el disco, la jabalina, todavía lo sigo haciendo a mi edad. Grupos de teatro, el coro, siempre fui como la figura a mirar o a criticar. Este es el que canta, es el hijo del músico. Dios te lo dio, no te lo va a quitar, como diría la gente. Entonces son diferentes experiencias que creo que me ayudarán. En la universidad estuve activo con grupos de lucha. En una época se quiso aumentar la matrícula de los estudiantes, el costo de estudios, de “tuition,” y ahí estuvimos activos en la huelga en el ’81, tuvimos que enfrentar la policía, a la fuerza de choque, la “riot police.” Y recuerdo que salí en primera plana de todos los periódicos el siguiente día. Hay una foto que tomaron, alguien. Se hicieron libros sobre ese evento. Pues son experiencias que no me arrepiento, al contrario, me reafirmo en todo lo que he hecho y dicho. No siempre es bueno, pero creo que todo eso me ha ayudado. Por un lado, a tener postura, a tratar de compartirlas con otra gente, a llevar mensaje, e ir rompiendo quizás con algo que yo pensé que de pequeño que yo era, tímido. Ósea, realmente creo que eso ha ido desapareciendo.
DV: Pues con todas estas experiencias no suena como que en realidad eras tímido.
LO: ¿Verdad, verdad? La gente cambia, la gente cambia, yo creo que ciertamente.
DV: Okey, bueno, y desde el 2002 como ya has dicho has sido el Analista de Relaciones Comunitarias aquí en Raleigh. Cuéntanos como--. Ya nos contaste como surgió el puesto, pero cuéntanos algunas anécdotas o hechos destacados de esta labor importante que has empeñado ya desde hace tantos años.
LO: Sí, bueno del 2002, enero catorce 2002, trabajo con la Ciudad de Raleigh. Nunca he estado, digo, tanto tiempo en un mismo lugar de trabajo. La educación, comencé a enseñar del año ’84 que hice mi práctica de maestro, y siempre estuve enseñando. Y afuera en una escuela, o la escuela de lenguas Berkley trabajé un año, maestro de español. De paso eran estudiantes agentes del FBI, bien interesante. Una de las agencias que quizás han sido más polémicas a lo largo de la historia de los Estados Unidos. El FBI, pero esa sería otra historia, otro proyecto. Pero sí, en Raleigh desde el 2002, ¿que contarte? Pues tantas experiencias, la gente que he conocido de diferentes países, las comunidades. Esta mañana habla por teléfono a, digamos que se llama Cecilia, vive en una comunidad aquí en Raleigh, son personas indocumentadas o no visados, pero quieren estar activas en su comunidad y quieren organizarse y yo: “¡tremendo!” Ósea, donde vives ahí tú quieres brillar y el problema que tienen ellos es de seguridad. Entonces quieren instalar luces solares para que se vea de noche. Pues dije vamos a ver cómo podemos financiar eso y lo juntamos con una celebración de comunidad. Es un vecindario que es bastante diverso. Ahí hay hispanos latinos, hay árabes, hay africanos. Dije, tiene una oportunidad tremenda para que celebren las luces de seguridad, pero también la cultura y la diversidad que ofrecen. Entonces, eso es una experiencia bien bonita. En una época, los sábados trataba de organizar limpiezas con los niños de alguna comunidad. Pues traía los chalecos yo, traía las bolsas, traía los “pickup sticks” para recogerla a la basura, guantes, y hacíamos dos horas de limpieza y después traíamos la máquina de palomitas. Y ahí a celebrar lo que habían hecho. Esas son experiencias también muy bonitas. Organizar el festival Viva Raleigh, y ahí tengo que darle crédito a la compañera Aracelys Torrez que estuvo conmigo casi doce años.
DV: ¿Compañía qué?
LO: Compañera Aracelys Torrez.
DV: Ah.
LO: Está todavía con la ciudad, pero está en otra oficina. Una historia también bien bonita. El festival Viva Raleigh que llegamos a reunir cinco mil personas en diferentes lugares que se hizo entre 2008 y 2019. La experiencia de crear un currículo educativo para que la gente conozca del gobierno local. Se llama Raleigh Neighborhood College y ahora en español también lo tenemos como el Curso de Gobierno Local, y se ofrece tanto virtual como presencial. Ahí traigo utilizando la experiencia de educación, de diseño de currículo, educación de adultos. Yo creo que todo lo que uno aprende a través de su vida lo va a utilizar en diferentes momentos o a veces se encuentra utilizando todo simultáneamente. Todo eso que has aprendido ya sea conocimiento o destrezas.
DV: Cuéntame acerca de ese proyecto, del Neighborhood College.
LO: Bueno, el Neighborhood College, la idea la trae una compañera Kira Steward en la primavera del 2002. Ella viene de Hampton, Virginia y había visto que Hampton tenía este tipo de programas para que la gente aprendiera sobre el gobierno local. Y la idea es que la gente aprende sobre el gobierno local y luego se involucre a nivel de vecindario, o de manzanas si quiere más pequeño. O que participen en las juntas locales, los “boards” o “commissions,” ya sea a nivel de ciudad o de condado o del estado. Entonces adoptamos ese programa, le dimos la forma Raleigh. Creé un currículo con diferentes departamentos, al principio eran creo que ocho semanas. Hacíamos un tour por la ciudad el sábado y la semana siguiente era la graduación, se daba un certificado. A través de los años—ya vamos veintiún años con este programa—el currículo se ha ido expandiendo. Ahora son doce semanas. Estamos actualmente corriéndolo, ahora mismo. Virtual por las mañanas y en persona por la noche. Son doce semanas, no hacemos el tour ya, pero hacemos visitas al centro de adiestramiento de los bomberos. Y ahí conocen todo el equipo, ven una actuación de un incendio. Con los policías igual, vamos a un lugar y ahí conocen el staff, conocían equipo de explosivos, la unidad canina, la unidad montada a caballo. Hemos hecho un tour diferente. Hemos graduado quizás más de seiscientas personas. Algunos han llegado a ser concejales municipales. Algunos han sido inclusive representantes en la legislatura estatal. El programa español lo comenzamos en plena pandemia. Hemos graduado ya a quince y la idea es, pues, darle quizás más mercadeo, más promoción y que haya por lo menos diez estudiantes ya sea virtual o en persona. Y claro, llevamos con la intención de que se active esa comunidad y si es posible que sean voluntarios—cuando hacemos eventos a veces hace falta alguien que se conecte con la gente o que explique nuestros problemas, ahí pueden ser también voluntarios. Mi idea es, antes de terminar mi trabajo en mi tiempo aquí, dos años más, es crear un premio al voluntario del año, ósea el voluntario latino-hispano, de habla española. Sí que eso es algo en pensamiento. Pero este programa nos ha permitido inclusive ganar premios nacionales, el de Neighborhood College. Tenemos una academia también de liderazgo comunitario, eso vamos a empezar en el otoño en español. Esas son--. Es más corta, son seis semanas. Pero otra vez la idea es que estás aquí, ya tú vienes con una destreza, con un conocimiento, con unas ideas, con unas experiencias; vamos entonces a darte ahora más herramientas para que donde estés, donde vayas seas un elemento positivo en tu comunidad, en tu vecindario.
DV: ¿El Neighborhood College sigue en inglés y en español hoy en día?
LO: Estuvo en inglés hasta--. Bueno, y todavía, ¿no? Y el español lo comenzamos en el 2021, en plena pandemia, que es el Curso de Gobierno Local. Al principio le llamé taller, pero taller para muchos es como el mecánico.
DV: Sí.
LO: Entonces puse Curso de Gobierno Local. La idea es tratar de fusionarlo con la academia de liderazgo. Que sean diez semanas tocando departamentos básicos, con los departamentos con los que la gente más interactúa: policía, bomberos, agua, recreación, desperdicios sólidos. Nosotros que somos, tenemos que ver con vecindarios, con participación del ciudadano, cívica, y siempre la clase inicial es para que conozcan que es el gobierno de la ciudad y el condado. Que es lo que al fin de cuentas uno más contacta cada día. Ósea, lo que más impacto tiene en tu vida a diario es tu ciudad, las ordenanzas municipales. ¿Quién te recoge la basura? La ciudad. ¿Quién te provee agua? La ciudad. ¿Quién te aprueba la biblioteca? El condado, usualmente. ¿Las escuelas? Condado o ciudad. Depende de donde estés. Pero nos extraña a veces que es muy poca gente que conoce el gobierno local y mucha menos gente participa en elecciones locales. Un diez, un quince por ciento como mucho, de los electorados inscritos participan en elecciones municipales. Entonces creemos que este programa puede ser también una forma de que la gente, no digo que voten o no voten, pero que conozcan la importancia de participar en esos procesos o estar al tanto de que implican.
DV: Bueno y después de veintipico de años también debes de tener otras anécdotas u otros proyectos de los cuales nos puedas contar.
LO: Bueno anécdota, quiero compartirte dos anécdotas cómicas, pero también serias.
DV: Okay.
LO: Una vez me llamó una señora y me pregunta sobre alguno de nuestros programas en inglés. Y yo le contesto—esto es muy temprano en mi trayectoria aquí—y al final de la conversación me pregunta en inglés: “are you from Austria?” Y le digo: “no, I’m from Puerto Rico.” “Oh, because you sound like Arnold.” Y yo: “ya?” [Laughter]. Sueno como Arnold Schwarzenegger, bueno no sé, eso siempre se me ha quedado. Es como una experiencia--. Digo, no creo que lo haya hecho ella con mala intención. Pero, siempre me pareció algo cómico. Otra un poquito más seria. No me pasó a mí personalmente, pero estaba presente cuando llamaron a Aracelys. Estábamos organizando el festival Viva Raleigh, no recuerdo que años era, si 2008, 2010, o ’12. Y alguien la llama en inglés, una voz masculina diciéndole que porque hacen esta cosa para esos inmigrantes indocumentados, y que sé yo, que debería darles vergüenza y yo dije tómalo como de quién viene. De frente no es feliz, así que tomalo como alguien que no es feliz y no temas, no tengas miedo. Sabemos que no toda la gente apoya este tipo de gestión, este tipo de labor. Así que--. Ósea, son experiencias que recuerdo. Como te dije, cómicas, pero a la vez serias, ¿no? El poder conocer gente de origen bien humilde, gente que llega aquí buscando, como dicen muchos, algo mejor para mis hijos, para mi familia, mucha gente habla del sueño americano. Yo como historiador, y tú también estás en esa trayectoria, en el gremio, todavía cuestiono mucho que es esto del sueño americano. ¿Es un producto de Hollywood, es un artefacto en un concepto académico o es una mentira? ¿Es una noción que viene del ’50 de la posguerra y queremos reproducir que cada cual tiene su casa tiene, tiene su carro, todos son felices, o realmente el sueño puedes vivirlo en cualquier lugar? Entonces es un tema que obviamente sería bueno para un debate y quizás un café o una cerveza. Pero sí, me encanta que la gente venga, se supere, si pueden aprendan el idioma porque eso te da más herramientas, te da más seguridad. Aprovecha cuánta oportunidad hay. En estos últimos dos años el transporte público aquí en Raleigh ha sido gratis. El regional, los autobuses de Triangle Transit, han sido gratis. Pues mira, no te expongas a manejar sin licencia. Si el transporte público te ofrece una opción para llegar a tu trabajo, prejúzgalo y no te expongas a manejar sin licencia y una posible multa y la corte. Y en algunos casos inclusive cosas más trágicas como una deportación. Y todo esto se lo comparto a la gente. La preocupación que tenemos con los adultos mayores, trato de que en Raleigh haya más conciencia de los adultos hispanos. No solamente a la ciudad sino también a parques, recreo, y la misma comunidad, que sepan que aquí estamos y que queremos ser el primer, principal canal de información para quien quiera que venga a vivir a Raleigh. Una muchacha me contactó de Puerto Rico por Facebook a través de una de estas redes de boricuas en Carolina del Norte, algo así, y está a punto de mudarse. Pues he estado comunicándome con ella cada cierta frecuencia. “Hey, ¿cómo estás? ¿Cómo está el proceso?” “No, pues estoy buscando trabajo, no pues estoy buscando vivienda.” Entonces viene con una niña pequeña, mira pues aquí está este contacto para que te ayude con quizás la cuestión de las escuelas o los cuidados para niños, el “day care.” Eso me da mucha satisfacción, poder ayudar a la gente, informarles y, pues, otra vez lo que tengo no es mío. Lo hago mío cuando lo comparto. No sé si hay alguna otra experiencia, pero son veintiún años.
DV: Bueno, que—hablando de Facebook, ¿qué otros métodos usas tú para, como decimos en inglés “outreach,” para llevar el mensaje, para llevar todo esto? Dices que lo que no tienes pues yo lo comparto, ¿cómo lo compartes?
LO: Si, bueno en los primeros años que llegamos hemos visto como la tecnología ha ido cambiando. Antes era básicamente llevar volantes, los “flyers,” a los negocios, estar presente en cada festival o fiesta que había. Si había una celebración de un grupo particular, puertorriqueño, dominicano, colombiano, venezolano, tratábamos de estar ahí presentes. Y que ya conocieran un rostro y una persona, un nombre. Últimamente ya hemos utilizado más el Facebook, tenemos una página digamos no oficial. Se llama “Viva Raleigh North Carolina” que la creó Aracelys y yo la sigo utilizando, ahí ponemos información. Tiene un alcance de más de mil quinientos. Comparto con otros grupos que sé que existen, boricuas en Carolina o mexicanos en Carolina o Latinos en Raleigh, y eso de alguna manera llega a la gente. Recuerdo que no hace mucho una iglesia, una organización, estaba regalando comida y compartí el volante de ellos y fueron seis mil visualizaciones. Yo dije, la gente tiene hambre y era en plena pandemia que alguna gente quedó sin empleo o vieron sus horas reducidas, y cualquier oportunidad de conseguir una comprita, como hicimos una despensa gratis. Pues yo recuerdo seis miles, y wow, yo espero que tengan comida suficiente porque la gente iba a llegar. Y era un día específico o era específico así que dije, mira--. Ellos me preguntaban “hay que hacer hora para esto,” “y mire yo nada más te estoy compartiendo información cualquier cosita llame ahí, pero apúrese porque imagino que va a ver mucha gente.” Y eso me hace satisfacción. Usamos el Facebook, estamos ya la página de la ciudad tratando de hacerla más amigable, más diversa en cuanto a gente pueda bajar documentos, pueda bajar manuales. Estamos ahora mismo con UNC en el Language [Access] Collaborative asegurarnos de que todo lo que es vital y necesario que la gente conozca y sepa, esté en su idioma. Y ese es un proyecto que, me invitaron a ser parte de este grupo, Aracelys precisamente, y Sue Ellen, compañeros en Raleigh. Y pues sí, voy a tomarlo como algo para mis últimos dos años con la ciudad. Ese es un proyecto que estoy trabajando ahora mismo y con este grupo hemos comenzado la propuesta para crear historias de vecindarios, el Neighborhood History Project. Aquí en Raleigh hay vecindarios históricos como Boylan Heights de 1907, que tienen una trayectoria histórica y en su website tienen ya todo, publicaciones y fotos. Method Road es vecindario histórico también, estuvo la primera escuela para negros en Raleigh y todavía está allí parte del edificio en Method. Ellos tienen un grupo que se reúnen cada cierto tiempo y comparten historias y hacen unas presentaciones. Queremos apoyarlos para que eso vaya más allá de fotos y exhibiciones, puedan hacer publicaciones o inclusive un proyecto de historia oral que no se ha hecho, vamos entonces a ver, porque una vez se mueren o nos morimos, todo eso se va, se pierde. Y por eso es tan importante que todo esto lo comparta uno con sus hijos con sus nietos. Yo le comparto a mis hijos lo bueno y lo no tan bueno lo que hice. Para que vean. Porque siempre dios te cuidó, te protegió, pero tuviste que aprender a veces a cantazos, ¿no? Así que ese es otro proyecto que tengo en mente ahora, la historia de vecindarios. La idea es poder darles unos criterios o unas ideas pero que ellos produzcan los que quieran, sea eso historia oral, sea una publicación, quizás un calendario con fotos de lugares históricos a través del tiempo de su comunidad. Hay fondos para eso que podemos ofrecerles, es un incentivo. Y lo tercero sería llevar los programas de educación cívica, el Neighborhood College, el Curso de Gobierno Local, a un próximo nivel. No sé qué sea eso, pero actualmente aparte de los cursos los estudiantes hacen un proyecto, o diseñan un proyecto para su comunidad. Pues cómo llevar eso a un siguiente nivel, me quedan dos años para eso. Y claro cuando me vaya, dejar alguien o dejar a un equipo que no solamente haga el alcance al español sino reconociendo la diversidad que hay en Raleigh. Por ejemplo, tenemos español, tenemos inglés obviamente pero ya hay chino mandarín, hay coreano, hay swahili, hay alemán, entonces cómo podemos hacer que Iniciativas Hispano-Latinas, que es como se llama ahora, pues se convierta en un tipo de iniciativas multiétnicas o multilingües o multicultural, que es un concepto quizás muy utilizado. Ver cómo podemos ampliar ese alcance. Yo hablo un poquito de francés, pues hicimos un evento en una comunidad en Peach Road hace como dos meses y ahí estaba batallándome con una señora de una nación africana con lo poquito de francés, porque compartíamos el francés. Ella swahili, yo el español, pero el francés era un idioma en común. Una compañera mía ahora mismo, Jayna, habla alemán y francés. Y le dije, “Jayna tenemos que empezar a utilizar eso.” Ese francés y alemán que es su idioma nativo, o vernáculo, y cómo podemos identificarlo. Y ya sea publicaciones o videos cortos que hagamos y aquí entraría entonces otro canal, el YouTube o el Vimeo. Qué fácil es compartir un enlace y la gente lo ve. Videos yo digo no más de cinco minutos, y si es para un evento treinta segundos debe ser suficiente.
DV: Bueno, ¿y algunos retos que has tenido en tu trayectoria hasta hoy?
LO: Mira, siempre me ha llamado la atención, y no créase que me ha molestado, pero cuando quizás no pronuncia una palabra bien en inglés y la gente me dice “¿qué dijiste, esto?” Qué sé yo. En vez de piso entendieron que dije pito. Eso siempre me ha llamado la atención, ¿por qué me corrige de esa manera? No sé, eso siempre me ha parecido algo como que incómodo. Y ahora en estos tiempos sería algo que tú puedes quejarte con recursos humanos. Por toda la cuestión de diversidad e inclusión que me parece que es muy positivo de mucha manera, eso siempre ha sido algo interesante que he sentido. Un reto quizás también ha sido el mantenerme motivado. Con todo lo que uno ve que pasa en el mundo, y creo que el mundo siempre ha estado en guerra, pero me parece que en esta época estamos sintiendo más esa presión de conflicto entre naciones. Que si los rusos, que si los chinos, que si Taiwán, si Estados Unidos. Eso me hace pensar, bueno cómo puedo mantener a una gente animada, estimulada, con la pasión de activarse en su comunidad, de dar sus talentos, de manifestar su pasión, cuando la sensación puede ser de un mundo que cada vez está peor. O que la violencia cada vez está más rampante. Este es un país donde tuvimos el año pasado 650 “shootings.” Estamos hablando de por lo menos dos por día. Y cuántas vidas se perdieron en esa--. Se me escapa la palabra ahora, no fueron matanzas, pero siempre hubo muertos. Hay partes en ciertas ciudades donde toda la noche la gente duerme con disparos como trasfondo musical. Entonces, cómo mantener la gente motivada, estimulada, a pesar de que eso está ocurriendo. O cómo podemos ser agentes que provocamos el cambio en ese sentido. Y claro, cada mañana a despertarte sabiendo que vas a trabajar ocho o diez horas, que tenías que tomar el camión o manejar tu auto. Obviamente Luis no es el mismo ahora a los sesenta y un años casi, que era a los treinta y nueve y que era a los veintiunos. Pero creo que hay algo que tengo que se ha--. Que ha permanecido, y es siempre el tratar de ver el lado jocoso a las cosas, el lado feliz, el lado contento. Superar cualquier prejuicio que haya tenido, cualquiera mala concepción y aquí voy a hacer una confesión. Para mí los hindúes eran gente que era muy creída. Yo veía a los hindúes y me parecían gente creída. No sé por qué razón sea. Pues la vida, dios, me permitió que tomando el autobús conociera mucho, muchos hindúes que se suben en RTP porque van para Durham o van para Chapel Hill, como tomo el autobús, y que muchos han sido amigos míos eventualmente. Y más extremo aún que mi sobrina en México, su esposo, y a quienes case en una ceremonia en México hace ya dos años, sea hindú. Entonces yo creo que dicen: al que no quiere caldo le dan dos tasas. Pues, creo que eso es algo--. Me enseñó que no debes tener malas impresiones de la gente independientemente del origen nacional que tengan o la impresión que te causen. Hay que superar eso y creo que eso es algo que es todavía como mundo y como país tenemos que superar, y creo que si pudiéramos superar es—y ahí la clave es el amor—creo que veremos muchos cambios inmediatos. Y un tercer reto, me preocupa mucho el manejo de la basura o desperdicio, la apariencia que a veces vemos en la calle, en las ciudades. Siempre he dicho, y esto lo aprendí de uno de mis supervisores, si la gente utilizara las tres p: “pick up trash,” recoge la basura, “plant some flowers,” planta unas flores, y pinta las paredes, “paint the walls,” ves el cambio inmediato. Eso me gustaría poder promoverlo en mis comunidades, en la misma propia mía, en donde vivo, en Durham, y dondequiera que vaya, que podamos recorrer la basura, plantar flores, y pintar las paredes. Un problema grave en muchas ciudades, lo he visto aquí en Raleigh, lo he visto en Durham, y en San Juan, Puerto Rico, es el grafiti. Y lo he visto en México, Ciudad de México. ¿Sabes cuál es la clave?a para el grafiti? No puedes dejarlo. Si lo dejas, estás invitando a que vengan más; grafiti tienes que eliminarlo. ¿Y cuál es una alternativa bonita? Haz murales. Murales que cuentan la historia de la comunidad, la historia del vecindario, la historia del país, o un personaje en particular, y el grafitero, digamos no legal, respeta el mural. Eso es algo que he visto.
DV: ¿Has tenido proyectos con murales aquí en Raleigh?
LO: Con los fondos oficiales hemos auspiciado murales en el Peace Street. Eventualmente un cambio de dueño de un negocio, el mural desapareció. Pero algo que estamos promoviendo ahora con fondos para los vecindarios: ahora se hace mucho el pintar con tiza en la calle, el “street chalk painting,” que no perdura para--. No dura para siempre. Al primer aguacero ya desaparece. Pero, otra vez, es forma de relatar historia o de lo que en ese momento el niño, la niña, o el joven, adulto quiere compartir, pues ahí lo armamos. Y definitivamente el arte, la cultura, la música. Vengo de una familia musical, definitivamente es tan necesario como el agua y el sol.
DV: Bien. Y bueno, ya me has hablado de tu educación y de tu formación, y que muchas de estas experiencias te han llevado a aprender y a tener otras experiencias parecidas. ¿Cuáles dirías que fueron los factores que más te ayudaron al largo del camino? ¿Otros factores, como ya dijiste que aprender de tus propias experiencias?
LO: Bueno, definitivamente mis padres ambos fueron educadores, mi papá fue ministro bautista, fue director de coro, reconocido en América Latina y en gran parte del mundo, América y Europa. Mi madre fue maestra de escuela y de universidad. Mis abuelos, pues igual. Los que no fueron pastores fueron educadores. Siempre tuvieron que ser como influencias vitales, importantes, como factores a lo largo de mi vida. De mi tío siempre he aprendido también, y mis tías. Pero experiencias concretas como tal, definitivamente el haber este probado la mariguana en la high school yo creo que--. Y haber sido parte de la juntilla que mencione anteriormente. Yo creo que esas experiencias te ayudan a entender qué es ser un estudiante rebelde, o qué es ser un estudiante que quizás la escuela no le interesa o le aburre, porque sucede. Estudiantes que la escuela le aburre y lo más fácil es salirte de ella, desconectarte. Creo que eso fue un factor que me enseñó a ver la vida también desde ese ángulo. El haberme criado con familia musical definitivamente no hay día que pase sin que me levante con un tono musical en la mente, o si estaba escuchando un disco, una grabación, la tengo todo el día. Y eso me ayuda también a tener siempre en la cabeza un pensamiento, una melodía, una letra de una canción, un versículo bíblico. En uno de mis trabajos con voluntarios siempre digo al grupo, a mi audiencia, traten de levantarse con un pasaje bíblico, les digo un salmo, el Señor es tu pastor, y eso mastícalo todo el día como la vaca, hasta que se vuelva líquido y lo absorban. Ósea, ¿qué significa para ti que el Señor es tu pastor? Que te cuida, que te provee. La vida es bella, ¿qué te dice eso a ti? La vida es bella, todo el día tener siempre eso creo que es un factor que me ayuda también a mantenerme animado con vida y estimulado. Yo creo que las experiencias tanto de pequeño en Boston, aunque no recuerde mucho, donde me crie en Puerto Ricos, me crie parte en un seminario donde vivía facultad, estudiantes, esa interacción con niños, con adultos, y con jóvenes a lo largo de mí--. Desde mis cinco años quizás hasta mis veinticinco, creo que es un factor también. El vivir frente a la universidad de Puerto Rico, esa misma época también, fui parte de cuanto encuentro y protesta hubo, hasta que fui parte de ellos activamente en el ’81 hasta los ’82. Creo que misma experiencia de poder viajar por el mundo, parte de América Latina, parte de Europa, Estados Unidos, pues creo que eso te ayuda a abrir tu mente y a poderte comparar—pero comparar para edificar, para construir, no para criticar. Aquí en Carolina ser parte de la junta de directores, el “board” de la biblioteca de Durham, la Biblioteca Pública de Durham, otra experiencia de liderazgo y también me ha ayudado a ver la necesidad de apoyar ese tipo de ambientes, pero también que la gente conozca lo oficioso de tener bibliotecas públicas donde hay libros que no importa el origen de libros, tú puedes tener acceso a ellos. Yo estuve en Cuba y tuve otra experiencia. Y fui a una biblioteca pública allí en Las Tunas, Cuba y obviamente la diversidad de libros era mucho menos, y la temática era muy enfocada a lo que el gobierno quiere promover y defender. Pues hay una diferencia. Ahora el hecho de que algunas bibliotecas en algunos estados estén eliminando ciertos libros porque los temas no les parecen buenos, eso me preocupa. Porque toquen temas de cuestiones sexuales o temas de--. No sé. Cosas que como que chocan, pero no extrañas en un mundo tan diverso como este de mentalidades. El haber sido parte de la junta y “chair” de la junta, o presidente de la junta de las Sociedades Hispanas Profesionales, pues defender programas que promuevan la educación, la retención escolar, becas para estudiantes. Mi esposa y yo actualmente apoyamos una beca para estudiantes que vayan a “community college” a través de la sociedad, y apoyamos una para estudiantes hispanos en NC State. Creemos que es importante, aunque es un poquito, compartir de lo que hemos recibido, apoyar y promover ese tipo de experiencias. Eso también me ha ayudado a cultivar en mí la generosidad. Cuando mi espíritu me dice hazlo o dios me dice dale, no lo pienso dos veces porque sé que ya es algo que esta en mí. El compromiso con el ambiente. Aquí hay una anécdota cómica, mi hija se bañaba cuando tenía como cinco años y guardaba las botellas de shampoo que tenían formas de peces. Y un día yo llego y veo que tiene muchas botellas y que la reciclo y dejo una. ¿Para qué fue eso? Hasta el día de hoy, mi hija tiene ahora veintinueve años y me dice, “¿te acuerdas papi reciclador?” Ósea, no me perdona, digo me perdona, ¿no? Pero no olvida el que le reciclé a sus--. Tenía como seis o siete botellas de shampoo con formas de pescado de diferentes colores y le dejé nada más una. Pero creo que, pues por el lado bueno, ese compromiso con el ambiente, con la defensa de la tierra, con amar la tierra. Me preocupa cuando los jóvenes ya no conocen la tierra. Todo lo que comen viene empacado, enlatado, o procesado y no tiene experiencia de ir a una finca y ver cómo crece una planta de café o un árbol de mango, lo que sea. Esa experiencia de ensuciarse las uñas con la tierra y vivir la experiencia de ver una planta crecer. Me preocupa eso, y creo que hay que fomentar eso en alguna manera. Todas esas experiencias yo creo que--. Experiencias que hemos tenido en mi familia de enfermedad, pues sí, ver eso cuenta como crecimiento. Madurez espiritual, y mental, y emocional definitivamente, los viajes que he podido hacer. Que creo todos esos factores han influenciado. Pero definitivamente creo que la experiencia más fundamental y más profunda ha sido el emigrar de Puerto Rico a Carolina del Norte. Aunque tenemos con fortuna la categoría de ciudadanos americanos, aunque eso es una discusión también, pero definitivamente dejar la tierra que te vio nacer, el clima en el cual te criaste, a mí me encanta estar en pantalones cortos y descalzo. Aquí no siempre puedes estar así. El ver la isla desde afuera. Ver Puerto Rico desde afuera. Como dije, ya lo había vivido en Florida State, y eso me inspiró un poema que ganó premio. Verlo ahora, pues me inspira otras cosas. Mis hijos en un momento dado preguntaban, sobre todo mi hijo preguntaba, “¿y yo qué soy?” Porque este es mexicano--. Mi esposa dice pues tú eres humano de tres mundos. Eres boricua, eres mexicano, y eres americano norteamericano, estadounidense. Nació en México, pero sirve en la milicia entonces tuvo que juramentar y renunciar a su mexicanidad en términos de categoría política. La experiencia de trabajar aquí, pues, diferentes compañeros a lo largo de veintiún años creo que es un factor importante. He aprendido a entender lo que es la mentalidad y el carácter sureño. Ya conocía a otras áreas. El medio oeste, conocía el noreste, pero lo que es el sur realmente te das cuenta de que hay variantes, hay diferencias. A pesar de que Hollywood quiera promoverte una cultura americana única--.
DV: Uniforme.
LO: Uniforme, exacto, a través de los “sitcoms” o la televisión, o vas por las interestatales y todo se parece lo mismo. Tienes que mirar más allá del Walmart y del Texaco para darte cuenta que hay diferencias geográficas y culturales e históricas. La oportunidad de seguir enseñando aquí en Durham Tech, historia de estados unidos e historia mundial, pues verla ahora con otras experiencias, con otras perspectivas, pero también integrando todo lo que traigo de mis años anteriores.
DV: Cuénteme detalles de esos otros proyectos que tienes afuera de aquí, de la Ciudad de Raleigh. Por ejemplo, has enseñando historia en Durham Tech ya varios años, ¿cierto?
LO: Sí. Bueno, comencé en el 2003--.
DV: Has sido pasto
LO: Sí, en Durham Tech empecé en el 2003 enseñando español en educación continua. Cuando termino la maestría en español, entonces voy y llevo mis papeles, mi documentación. Ahí me entrevista Connie Gómez, excelente compañera, una de las vicepresidentes ahora de Durham Tech, y empezó a enseñar español y eventualmente también enseño historia. Sentía que querían hacer historia. Al momento enseño cursos online de historia de Estados Unidos, historia mundial, e historia occidental. Otra vez, trayendo siempre mis experiencias, pero a través de los estudiantes también aprendo. Y me doy cuenta que ahora cuando veo el elenco, o el roster, la lista de nombres tiene estudiantes hispanos, tienes africanos, tienes asiático, algo que quizás veinte años atrás no hubiera avisto cuando comencé en Durham Tech. No había esa diversidad de estudiantes, y yo les pido a ellos por lo menos tres veces al semestre que nos reunamos virtualmente, hacemos una conversación diez, quince, minutos. Creo que es importante esa interacción social, aunque sea virtual o a través de una cámara, y yo creo que aprendemos mucho de ambas partes. Me mantengo enseñando hasta que la mente funcione. Me mantengo investigando la presencia boricua en North Carolina. Un proyecto que llevo ya como 5 años desarrollando. La próxima etapa sería ya historias orales y negocios boricuas en North Carolina, esa es otra área que quiero explorar ahora o más adelante que me retire. La experiencia pastoral, pues sí, como te dije me crie en la iglesia. Tengo una convicción, una fe, no aprendida sino personal. Acá con mi cuñado desarrollamos obras hispanas en Virginia, en Carolina, aquí en Chapel Hill. Tuvimos una obra en una iglesia entrando a Chapel Hill, Grace Church, por catorce años. Ahora mismo no tenemos una congregación como tal, pero tenemos una virtual cada domingo y compartimos mensajes, comunión, música. Enseño online cursos de teología, temas teológicos. Sigo estudiando doctorado en teología, pero también son oportunidades también para alcanzar, y claro compartes una fe, compartes una perspectiva teológica, pero también ves necesidades. Y siempre que he estado con alguien he compartido también cómo puedo de alguna manera, como parte de mi trabajo con la ciudad, apoyar o educar o integrar más allá de la cuestión de la fe, o independientemente de la fe. El trabajo con adultos mayores que es algo que también, por mi esposa, he aprendido a amar y a valorar. Y capellán con los Durham Bulls. Soy el que hace la capilla cada domingo de juego local a los jugadores latinos o que hablan español, aunque a veces me toca hacer las dos. Esa es otra experiencia también de alcance porque son jóvenes que están aquí, aún ya la próxima temporada no están, y mientras están aquí queremos hacerles su estadía placentera y que siempre sientan que tienen aquí alguien que pueda apoyarlos, orar por ellos. Hubo uno que, cuando la pasada temporada huracán, su casa estuvo afectada. Ahí buscamos recoger fondos y enviárselos para que deje su casa y se fuera a en un Airbnb en lo que pasaba todo el efecto del huracán, cosas así. Que también es un tipo de liderazgo pero que no porque tú lo buscas sino porque lo sientes. Sientes tomar iniciativa. Sientes servir, y creo que servir también cuando te sale del corazón. En las comunidades yo digo que uno puede participar de un evento porque de repente surgió, o llegaste, o coincidió que estabas allí y pues ni modo, te toco. Puedes ser voluntario porque te conviene dar la cara o porque tienes que acumular unas horas de voluntario, pues te apuntaste, cumpliste con eso y ya, saliste del compromiso. Pero ya cuando hay, lo que llaman en inglés “involvement,” ósea ya cuando te involucras, ya hay algo de pasión, ya hay algo ahí de que tú tienes algo que dar, algo a aportar. Pero ya cuando te “engage,” cuando te comprometes, ahí está el corazón, de por medio. Eso me parece que todos y todas tenemos la posibilidad de pasar por esas etapas en diferentes momentos, y yo sé que toda la gente, todos—y ahora hablando de hispanos y latinos—tenemos algo que aportar, independientemente del origen, de la trayectoria, de trasfondo.
DV: Pues hablando de esto, de hispanos que tienen mucho que aportar, para concluir, ¿qué consejos les darías a futuros líderes latinos?
LO: Mira, últimos, yo diría 10 años, y algo que sigo practicando, siempre he recomendado a alguien que tenga un mentor. Casi siempre sugiero que sea, si es hombre para que tenga un mentor hombre, sí mujer, mujer. Pues, en términos de que tenemos muchas experiencias en común que quizás no tengo como una mujer. Vaya. O podemos ser más abiertos. No sé, eso se puede interpretar de muchas maneras, pero a lo que voy: tener un mentor. Alguien que tú puedas semanalmente, o quincenalmente, o mensualmente, o quizás por temporada, pues mira, nos reunimos, comemos, tomamos algo o nos encontramos. Pero ayúdame a crecer, ayúdame a entender o compartir preocupaciones, ideas. Creo que es importante que cada cual tenga un mentor o mentora, a veces alguien fuera de familia, a veces alguien en la escuela, en la iglesia, en el trabajo, pero es importante ese mentor o mentora. Otros llaman consejeros, orientador. Me gusta usar la mentoría. Descubrir cuáles son tus pasiones, ósea que es algo que te provoca, que te anima, que te estimula. ¿Es el hecho de que la gente todavía pasa hambre? ¿Son las mascotas abandonadas, los perros o gatitos? ¿Es la gente que no tiene vivienda? ¿La gente que no puede pagar una vivienda porque cada vez es más cara? Cuando yo llegué a Raleigh, aquí había un apartamento de un cuarto, eran quinientos dólares. Ahora son mil trescientos por una habitación, ósea es casi el triple, y el salario mínimo ha aumentado un dólar cincuenta centavos. ¿Eso es una “mofa,” no? Pero eso sería otra discusión, otra cerveza, otro café. Descubrir tus pasiones, ósea que es aquello. Procurarte cuantas oportunidades tanto tengas de educación, ya sea un curso de un día, ya sea una conferencia, alguien que vas a escuchar que va a hablar, cursos formales, ya sea un curso de un semestre de un año, la opción de ir a la universidad o colegio comunitario, creo que es importante. Ósea, mantenernos constantemente, educándonos en sentido formal. Yo he dicho, la vida es un proceso constante de aprendizaje. “Life is a long--.” Se escapa ahora en inglés como es que digo, pero la vida es un constante aprender. Pero ciertamente también eso incluye la educación formal. Entonces siempre que hay una oportunidad de aprender algo, o una destreza, o estimular tu pensamiento, pues hacerlo, por ese lado. Valores, tener claro cuáles son tus valores. ¿Qué es lo que tú afirmas? ¿Como tú te identificas? ¿Qué es lo que tú defiendes? ¿Defiendes la justicia? ¿Defiendes el amor? ¿Defiendes la paz? Es importante que uno sepa cuáles son tus valores. ¿Crees en la familia? ¿Crees, que sé yo, en la tierra, en el planeta, la importancia del agua? Cosa como esas, creo que es importante tener alguien que tú puedes decir que son tus influencias. Ósea, yo puedo mirar quizás a mi padre, Luis Olivieri-Gómez, puedo mirar quizás a mi abuela Carmen Luis-Santos Aponte, puedo mirar quizás a personajes que he conocido, a uno de mis antiguos supervisores, al pastor que me casó. Entonces que yo pueda tener por lo menos mi lista de cinco personas que yo sé que han influido en mi vida, digo que he conocido personalmente. Hay algunas que te influyen porque escuchaste de ellas o viste la película, Madre Teresa.
DV: Modelos a seguir.
LO: Sí, Gandhi, Jesús, qué sé yo. No voy a entrar a política, pero me explico. Creo que eso es importante, y tener un plan de vida. ¿Dónde te visualizas en un año? Donde de visualizas en cinco años, en 10 años, tener visión. Dice la biblia, mi pueblo padece por falta de visión. ¿Si no hay visión, hacia dónde vamos? ¿Qué queremos lograr? Se da mucho en América Latina. Dejamos todo a los políticos, a los presidentes, y yo creo que es importante, así como en el vecindario—es tu unidad quizás más inmediata, la comunidad. En ese sentido yo soy medio Bakunin, la ideología este anarquista. La no creencia del estado y más bien la fragmentación en pequeñas unidades políticas, pequeñas comunidades. Creo que cuando podemos operar a un nivel más pequeño es más posible cambio, la transformación. Si dejamos todo al aparato grande, al macro, a veces como que no vemos el cambio, como que es más difícil. Si podemos hacer ese cambio comenzando por tu calle, por tu piso. Que conozcas a tu gente, a tu norte, a tu sur, tu este, y tu oeste. Que vaya más allá de un saludo, el clásico desde el auto, “hi,” “hi.” No, este, invítalos a un “barbecue” en tu casa, no sé, cosas así. Creo que eso es importante, dónde te ves de unos a cinco o diez años, y qué pues hacer en donde está mismo ahora, cómo puedes hacer un cambio. Creo que esas experiencias de intercambio, de interactuar con la gente, uno también va creciendo y desarrollas el liderazgo. Porque te vas descubriendo: en qué creo, que es lo que me hace palpitar el corazón, que me provoca coraje, qué me provoca el llanto. Creo que la vida es corta. La vida comparada con la eternidad, la vida comprada con universo, es corta. Uno puede vivir, dice la Biblia, 120 años, y hemos visto que eso es así. Tengo un amigo, un conocido, que murió de ciento trece años, murió el año pasado, Emilio Flores Márquez, puertorriqueño. Fue el hombre vivo de mayor edad por dos meses, según el libro Guinness. Y Don Emilio dice, y yo lo siento como un mensaje: aprendió de sus pares el dar lo que tiene, él compartir lo que tiene. Aprendió que amando es como realmente se vive feliz, y así vivió hasta que tuvo conciencia de sí. Entonces yo puedo dar muchas prácticas, experiencias, y compartir, pero me gustaría, pues, quien escuche esto y sienta esa inquietud, que nos contacte. Porque de alguna manera uno puede hacer una influencia positiva o poner ese granito, esa semilla, que de un fruto abundante. Muchos jóvenes se frustran porque no pueden estudiar, porque cuesta mucho la universidad o el problema que yo quiero. Yo digo aquí que las universidades no son públicas, ósea son del estado. Si fueran públicas serían mucho más accesibles, el costo. Hay países de América Latina, Europa, donde el costo es mucho más, mucho, mucho, mucho menor, pero claro tienes que ganarte el poder estar en la universidad. Hay unos exámenes--.
DV: El puesto.
LO: Exactos. Exámenes que tomas para cierta facultad, y es lo que mi esposa vivió en México. Pero si el costo es un reto, yo siempre digo a los estudiantes que se van a graduar de escuela superior y quieren seguir en la universidad, les digo, “¿tú conoces 50 personas en tu vida?” “Sí.” “¿Y esas personas, tú crees que te quieren?” “Sí.” “¿Conoces cien?” Es posible, a esos cincuenta o cien personas, compárteles lo que es tu proyecto a un año, o cuatro, o 5 años. Escríbeles, no les envíes un email, escríbeles de puño y letra, o algo que imprimas pero que lo firmen. Una foto tuya para que te vean y diles lo que es tu sueño, y si pudieran en su corazón colaborarte con sus pensamientos, con sus oraciones, y si posible con un donativo. Si tú tienes cincuenta personas, y te dan cien dólares, y cien dólares lo gastas uno en el Kankis o en el chino, en alguna cena familiar, o un juego de NC State o de UNC fútbol, porque son bien caros. Cien dólares, fácil. Cincuenta por cien son cinco mil dólares. Ya ahí cubriste un semestre de universidad. Porque a veces la beca no la puedes conseguir porque no tienes derecho a ella, o porque no te tocó, pero tienes gente que tú vas a ser partícipe o parte de esa experiencia tuya de crecer intelectualmente, profesionalmente. Entonces, yo siempre digo a amistades o con los que yo trabajo: ah, se graduó tu hija, espero su carta. Pues ahí vamos.
DV: Bueno Luis, muchas gracias. Gracias por estar con nosotros y compartir tu historia.
LO: A ti, Daniel, y al equipo.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Transcriber: Daniel Velásquez and Sofia Godoy
Interview Date: 2023 April 5
Date of Transcription: 2023 July 10, 2023 October 18
Es: Transcripción
Daniel Velásquez: Yo soy Daniel Velásquez. Estoy aquí con Luis Olivieri-Robert quien es el Community Relations Analyst, o Analista de Relaciones Comunitarias de la Ciudad de Raleigh, y hoy fue miércoles abril 3 del 2023. Luis, muchas gracias por sentarte conmigo y compartir tu historia.
Luis Olivieri-Roberts: Gracias Daniel por tu presencia y esta oportunidad de compartir un poquito de mi historia de vida.
DV: Gracias, bueno empecemos con lo básico. Cuéntame sobre tus antecedentes personales, en general donde naciste y creciste etc.
LO: Bueno nací de mi madre y padre en Puerto Rico, Carolina, Puerto Rico en el año ’62. Mi padre entonces era pastor bautista en Rio Grande, un municipio al oeste de San Juan. Pero mi madre tenía su médico personal en Carolina, por lo cercano, y ahí nací en una clínica privada, una oficina. Ahí estuvimos hasta dos años y de ahí entonces fuimos a--. Bueno, me trajeron a Boston. Mi papa era pastor de obreros migrantes en esa época. Ahí fui muy influenciado por todas las ideas de Martin Luther King, y a los dos años, año y medio, regresamos a Puerto Rico, y ahí es donde estuve prácticamente hasta que me fui a hacer una segunda maestría en Florida State en el año ’86. Pues básicamente puedo decir que sí, nací en Puerto Rico, me crie en Puerto Rico, aunque esas experiencias de Boston de buena manera todavía recuerdo algo bien leve. Viajes que hacíamos frecuentemente ya en mis años ocho hasta los quince años, todo eso me ayudó mucho, pero nací en Puerto Rico, me crié ahí y ahí prácticamente hice mis estudios de escuela elemental, secundaria, o el kínder. Elemental, secundaria, la escuela superior y mis estudios de bachillerato, como decían en Puerto Rico “undergrad,” también los hice en Puerto Rico, y una primera maestría en estudios de Puerto Rico y el Caribe.
DV: En Puerto Rico la primera maestría--.
LO: Sí.
DV: ¿Y luego la segunda fue en Florida?
LO: La segunda, bueno termino los “undergrad” en los ’84, hago esa primera maestría en centro de estudios avanzados en San Juan en el ’84 a ’86, y en Florida State el ’86 hasta el ’88. En esa época trabajé un tiempo de maestro “part-time,” pero era estudiante. No tomé básicamente una pausa sino que quería hacer la maestría. Mi padre estaba haciendo un doctorado en Florida State desde el ’84. Se fue un año a hacer su residencia, y cuando ya terminamos entonces yo llego a hacer esa maestría que ya terminé para el ’88. Después hice otros estudios acá en NC State. Hice una maestría en español, 2004, 2006, y después completé una maestría en educación en el 2010, enfocada en educación de adultos, también en NC State. He hecho certificados graduados en teología aquí en el Southern Baptist, Gordon Conwell, ambos online. Y ahora estoy en “doctorate” en teología, hay un interés especifico por ese tema: iglesia y sociedad. Pero sí, en pocas palabras soy puertorriqueño y llevo aquí ya prácticamente veintiún años de mi vida. Llegué casi a los cuarenta a North Carolina y mis hijos básicamente crecieron aquí. Llegaron a los seis y a los once. Ya tienen veintinueve y treinta y cuatro, pero siguen sintiendo mucho por, pues por México y Puerto Rico, somos una familia combinada o mezclada, “borimex” como decimos, ¿no?
DV: ¿Y que finalmente te trajo a Carolina del Norte entonces?
LO: Mira, en el ’95 supimos que mi suegra tenía un primo que estaba aquí en Carolina del Norte. Era misionero metodista, ya tendría, para esa época, unos setenta años y seguía activo. Y entonces la invitó a venir para que conociera y mi suegra vino en otoño y le encantó el otoño, los colores todo eso. Regresó fascinada ella. Estuvo con nosotros en Puerto Rico ayudándonos con los niños porque ambos trabajábamos en la universidad tiempo completo. Y este--. Pues recuerdo que volaron de San Juan a Raleigh. Había un vuelo directo de American, y estuvieron aquí creo que una semana. En esa época Raleigh era un “hub” de American, y por eso ella voló directo. Y le encantó, y vinimos entonces, en diciembre de ese año ’95. Vinimos de visita. Ya estaba aquí un cuñado mío con su esposa y sus hijos. Mi tío los había invitado a venir y habían conseguido un trabajo. Tenían visa, pero eso era todo. Cuando la visa se expiró se supone que regresarían a México. Nunca regresaron, obviamente. Aquí nació su tercer hijo de mi cuñado, uno de mis cuñados, entonces mi tío pues lo apoya. Viene su esposa con los hijos. Interesante porque la esposa hace un video que tenía una parte cómica. Envía el video a un concurso que había en México de “funny home videos,” como videos cómicos, y gana el segundo premio.
DV: Wow.
LO: Nacional. Y con el dinero que le dan, y le regalan una VHS que era la más moderna, en ese momento era la “state of the art.” Con ese dinero compró los pasajes y vienen acá y hasta el día hoy. Mi cuñado murió, pero ella sigue aquí y los hijos han crecido y hay nietos. Pero por ahí viene esa conexión con el estado. Venimos ese diciembre ’95 y nos toca vivir la experiencia del “Big Blizzard,” una tormenta que hubo bien fuerte.
DV: Wow.
LO: Íbamos en autobús a ver unos amigos en Missouri y nos toca manejar. Yo por primera vez manejar en la nieve. Lo que hice fue que me fui detrás de los “trailers” para que ellos fueran limpiando la carretera y yo detrás a una distancia aceptable. Nos tocó parar a comer en un Sonic, creo que era a las dos de la mañana, estaban sirviendo. La muchacha salía y la temperatura yo veía está en cinco grados y esta está sirviendo afuera. [Laughter]. Pero es su trabajo, imagino. Entonces por ahí vino esas primeras experiencias con Carolina del Norte. Regresamos a Puerto Rico y en el 1999, 2000, mi suegra le dice a mi esposa, “¿oye porque no vamos un año a Carolina?” Ya estaban aquí dos cuñados, había más familias que se habían establecido aquí en un condado rural de la frontera con Virginia, Rockingham County. Y yo le pregunté a mi esposa, ¿pues si quieres váyanse ustedes un año adelante, no? Viven la experiencia y yo voy a estar yendo cada vez que tengo una oportunidad. Y en el 2000 ya empiezo a hacer los planes para venir. Empiezo a enviar solicitudes de trabajo, más de veinte. Hasta que una que envié a la Ciudad de Raleigh, ahí me invitaron a entrevista. Vine una vez a entrevista, vine a una segunda, y en esa segunda ya se me ofrece el puesto.
DV: No vivías aun cuando estabas--.
LO: No, todavía la primera entrevista estaba en Puerto Rico.
DV: ¿Y todavía ejercías en la universidad?
LO: Sí, recuerdo que estaba chequeando los emails de estudiantes y en eso entra un email de Raleigh y yo qué loco, ¿no? Dice, “puedes venir a una entrevista tan pronto como puedas,” y yo acabó de estar allá la semana pasada porque fui a ver a mi hijo, mi esposa, creo que era el receso de acción de gracias o el “Fall break,” pero sí. Y ahí mismo me puse a buscar pasaje. En esa época la ruta era a Greensboro. Era lo más cerca del condado donde vivían.
DV: ¿Cual condado era?
LO: Rockingham, Rockingham County, al norte de Greensboro. Ya para diciembre del 2001 dejo mi trabajo en Puerto Rico. Enseñaba en cuatro diferentes universidades. Dejo la posibilidad de una plaza, ya como dicen “tenure,” una plaza como tal. Un sistema muy politizado y muy complicado, pero yo era el próximo para la plaza. Y conseguí el trabajo acá y empecé el catorce de enero del 2002, aquí en la Ciudad de Raleigh.
DV: ¿Y cuál era tu título en ese momento?
LO: En esa época, cuando llego, estaban buscando alguien que fuera el Latino Liaison, el Enlace Latino. Y la tarjeta que me hicieron, el “business card,” la tarjeta de presentación, decía Human Resources Technician, era la clasificación que existía para el puesto. Obviamente era en un salario aceptable, creo que eran cuarenta mil dólares y dije pues sí. Eso me ganaba en Puerto Rico enseñando en tres universidades. Los beneficios, pues sí, definitivamente fue algo muy atractivo. A los pocos meses, siendo yo Coordinador de Iniciativas Latinas, me ofrecen un ascenso a, era Community Services Specialist, y dije pues sí. Y eso implicó un ascenso también en un aumento en salario. Seguí dirigiendo Iniciativas Latinas, pero se vino alguien que trabajó junto conmigo y ya hicimos un equipo. Y hasta así ha sido prácticamente hasta hace los meses atrás. Éramos dos personas siempre a cargo de Iniciativas Latinas aquí en Raleigh, educación, promoción de programas, información, contacto con la comunidad, contacto con grupos, organizaciones. Y he visto cómo la población hispana ha crecido en Raleigh. No solo en el estado sino también en Raleigh.
DV: ¿Cómo fue esa transición de trabajar en un ámbito académico, como dices enseñabas en tres universidades, y luego trabajar para la ciudad, para el gobierno?
LO: Bueno algo que ellos valoraron en mí cuando me entrevistaron aquí en Raleigh era primero mi experiencia de educación. Porque se supone que uno iba a planificar o programar talleres o sesiones educativas para la comunidad. Pues, tiene experiencia enseñando, debe saber cómo planificar un currículo, un programa. Número dos, había estado colaborando con mi cuñado en la iglesia siempre que veníamos y yo hacía interpretación. Ah mira, conoce los dos idiomas puede interpretar también. Y en un momento dado en la ciudad era básicamente uno de los pocos que podía hacer traducción porque conocía el idioma. Eventualmente cuando estudié en NC State estudié un curso de traducción y eso también le dio más valor a mi destreza. Pero sí fue un cambio en el sentido de que en la academia uno tiene que buscar cuando hacer publicaciones, eso es lo que te da los ascensos. Cuando hacen la conferencia de presentación, sí, bueno, es padre, pero eso no te asegura acenso en rango. Era un ambiente diverso en el sentido de ideas, de formas de pensamiento. Aquí me vine a tocar con un ambiente diverso, pero en cuanto a orígenes; mexicano, guatemalteco, salvadoreño, entonces nunca me había expuesto a una diversidad en un mismo lugar. Me había expuesto a la diversidad porque viajaba a diferentes países con mi familia. Entonces fue algo bien único y contrastante quizás. El poder ver a Puerto Rico desde afuera. Ya había tenido esa experiencia cuando me había ido a estudiar a Florida State. Veo a Puerto Rico desde afuera, una experiencia completamente diferente. Estaba comprometido políticamente con la independencia y con el ambiente, defensa del ambiente. Y todavía creo que sigo muy con eso. Entonces ver ahora a Puerto Rico desde Carolina del Norte también son otras experiencias. Pero sí, como tú dices, fue un contraste de trabajar con estudiantes y con colegas profesores a trabajar con una comunidad diversa. No solamente el origen, pero también la preparación académica. Gente con grados profesionales, gente con educación universitaria. Gente con quizás apenas tercer, cuarto grado, o nada. Gente que escribe y lee, gente que no puede escribir quizás, o no ha aprendido a escribir, pero para eso tienes que tener una mente y un corazón bien abierto. Y eliminas todo tipo de prejuicio, supera las diferencias en deporte. El soccer, el balompié. [Laughter]. Tienes que superar esas diferencias a nivel de CONCACAF para poder ponerte a que estás hablando con gente como tú, es por encima de diferencias de países.
DV: Cuéntame de algunas de tus experiencias profesionales o de liderazgo previas. Algunos detalles que quieras contar.
LO: Mira, haciendo memoria recuerdo que quizás de las primeras experiencias de liderazgo como tal en Puerto Rico sería con la juventud, se llamaba la Unión de Jóvenes Bautistas de Puerto Rico, era una unión nacional. Yo estaba en el distrito este, que era San Juan y la periferia, la capital y periferia. Ahí llegué a ser vicepresidente de la unión. En mi iglesia local éramos un equipo de liderazgo que planificamos el plan de trabajos, retiros, campamentos, excursiones, diferentes temas, ya fuera que lo hiciéramos nosotros o invitáramos a alguien. Pues esa fue otra experiencia de liderazgo que recuerdo. En el año ’90, como parte del comité del Día Del Planeta, era la primera vez que en Puerto Rico se hacía una celebración oficial del Día Del Planeta, el “Earth Day.” Eso es algo que no se había hecho antes. Antes se habían hecho quizás algún tipo de manifestación o protesta en defensa del ambiente. De los años ’70 por lo menos que yo recuerde. Mi papá me llevo a una en el ’71.
DV: ¿Siempre te ha interesado el tema del ambiente?
LO: Si, no--.
DV: ¿Específicamente de Puerto Rico?
LO: Bueno en general la tierra, los recursos naturales, la tierra como parte de la creación, pero también como compañera tuya de tu vida. No vivimos en el espacio, estamos en un planeta y creo que eso ha sido parte de su influencia. Vengo de familia que siempre ha cosechado algo. Café comercialmente pero también en su casa siempre ha habido siempre una huerta. Siempre hemos tenido algo, aunque sea orégano y cilantro, pero algo que hay que cultivar. Esa experiencia con el planeta tierra que mi esposa también estuvo muy activa también fue tipo de liderazgo. Juntar artistas, músicos, grupos activistas, y reunir cinco mil personas. Pensamos que fue un éxito siendo una primera vez que se hacía, en un parque de la capital, Parque Luis Muñoz Marín. A nivel político estuve activo con el partido independentista puertorriqueño del ’80, que fue mi primer voto. Pero mi padre pues ya, y mi madre--. Ya me habían enseñado esa conciencia y compromiso por la patria. Mi padre había estado activo en el ’73 en la lucha contra la presencia de la marina de guerra en la Isla de Culebra. Recuerdo que van a Culebra, él nos cuenta después, establecen una capilla en lo que era la Playa Flamingo, que en esa época era una playa ocupada por la marina, era territorio que no podías pasar. Hoy en día es unos lugares que más la gente visita en Culebra, se ha rescatado para el uso del turista y el local también. Mi padre regresa el sábado porque el domingo tenía que reportarse en la iglesia, era el pastor de la Iglesia Bautista de la Capital de San Jan, y ese día los arrestan a los que quedaron en el campamento. Y estuvieron tres meses presos. Entre ellos Rubén Berríos y Luis Rivera-Pagán que eran líderes del independentismo y muy conocidos. Entonces con el PIP, cuando comienzo a hacer mi primer voto en los ’80s, siempre estuve involucrado en algunos eventos que se hacían en defensa de la tierra, cuestiones ambientales, la cuestión de la lucha contra lo nuclear en los ’80s fue muy fuerte. Habíamos de los que estábamos--.
DV: ¿Las armas nuclearas?
LO: Si las armas nucleares, exacto. Y también la construcción de plantas nucleares o incineradores, que es algo que siempre hemos combatido. En la escuela fue un tipo de arco diferente. Yo era parte de la juntilla. La juntilla eran los que faltábamos a clase y nos íbamos por ahí a--. Como decíamos a pasar el rato, no a una esquina. No era exactamente positivo, pero sí creo que fue también oportunidad de cómo crear comunidad en sentido de pertenencia. Fui líder quizás en elemento deportivo, siempre estuvo activo como atleta de pista y campo, la pesa, el disco, la jabalina, todavía lo sigo haciendo a mi edad. Grupos de teatro, el coro, siempre fui como la figura a mirar o a criticar. Este es el que canta, es el hijo del músico. Dios te lo dio, no te lo va a quitar, como diría la gente. Entonces son diferentes experiencias que creo que me ayudarán. En la universidad estuve activo con grupos de lucha. En una época se quiso aumentar la matrícula de los estudiantes, el costo de estudios, de “tuition,” y ahí estuvimos activos en la huelga en el ’81, tuvimos que enfrentar la policía, a la fuerza de choque, la “riot police.” Y recuerdo que salí en primera plana de todos los periódicos el siguiente día. Hay una foto que tomaron, alguien. Se hicieron libros sobre ese evento. Pues son experiencias que no me arrepiento, al contrario, me reafirmo en todo lo que he hecho y dicho. No siempre es bueno, pero creo que todo eso me ha ayudado. Por un lado, a tener postura, a tratar de compartirlas con otra gente, a llevar mensaje, e ir rompiendo quizás con algo que yo pensé que de pequeño que yo era, tímido. Ósea, realmente creo que eso ha ido desapareciendo.
DV: Pues con todas estas experiencias no suena como que en realidad eras tímido.
LO: ¿Verdad, verdad? La gente cambia, la gente cambia, yo creo que ciertamente.
DV: Okey, bueno, y desde el 2002 como ya has dicho has sido el Analista de Relaciones Comunitarias aquí en Raleigh. Cuéntanos como--. Ya nos contaste como surgió el puesto, pero cuéntanos algunas anécdotas o hechos destacados de esta labor importante que has empeñado ya desde hace tantos años.
LO: Sí, bueno del 2002, enero catorce 2002, trabajo con la Ciudad de Raleigh. Nunca he estado, digo, tanto tiempo en un mismo lugar de trabajo. La educación, comencé a enseñar del año ’84 que hice mi práctica de maestro, y siempre estuve enseñando. Y afuera en una escuela, o la escuela de lenguas Berkley trabajé un año, maestro de español. De paso eran estudiantes agentes del FBI, bien interesante. Una de las agencias que quizás han sido más polémicas a lo largo de la historia de los Estados Unidos. El FBI, pero esa sería otra historia, otro proyecto. Pero sí, en Raleigh desde el 2002, ¿que contarte? Pues tantas experiencias, la gente que he conocido de diferentes países, las comunidades. Esta mañana habla por teléfono a, digamos que se llama Cecilia, vive en una comunidad aquí en Raleigh, son personas indocumentadas o no visados, pero quieren estar activas en su comunidad y quieren organizarse y yo: “¡tremendo!” Ósea, donde vives ahí tú quieres brillar y el problema que tienen ellos es de seguridad. Entonces quieren instalar luces solares para que se vea de noche. Pues dije vamos a ver cómo podemos financiar eso y lo juntamos con una celebración de comunidad. Es un vecindario que es bastante diverso. Ahí hay hispanos latinos, hay árabes, hay africanos. Dije, tiene una oportunidad tremenda para que celebren las luces de seguridad, pero también la cultura y la diversidad que ofrecen. Entonces, eso es una experiencia bien bonita. En una época, los sábados trataba de organizar limpiezas con los niños de alguna comunidad. Pues traía los chalecos yo, traía las bolsas, traía los “pickup sticks” para recogerla a la basura, guantes, y hacíamos dos horas de limpieza y después traíamos la máquina de palomitas. Y ahí a celebrar lo que habían hecho. Esas son experiencias también muy bonitas. Organizar el festival Viva Raleigh, y ahí tengo que darle crédito a la compañera Aracelys Torrez que estuvo conmigo casi doce años.
DV: ¿Compañía qué?
LO: Compañera Aracelys Torrez.
DV: Ah.
LO: Está todavía con la ciudad, pero está en otra oficina. Una historia también bien bonita. El festival Viva Raleigh que llegamos a reunir cinco mil personas en diferentes lugares que se hizo entre 2008 y 2019. La experiencia de crear un currículo educativo para que la gente conozca del gobierno local. Se llama Raleigh Neighborhood College y ahora en español también lo tenemos como el Curso de Gobierno Local, y se ofrece tanto virtual como presencial. Ahí traigo utilizando la experiencia de educación, de diseño de currículo, educación de adultos. Yo creo que todo lo que uno aprende a través de su vida lo va a utilizar en diferentes momentos o a veces se encuentra utilizando todo simultáneamente. Todo eso que has aprendido ya sea conocimiento o destrezas.
DV: Cuéntame acerca de ese proyecto, del Neighborhood College.
LO: Bueno, el Neighborhood College, la idea la trae una compañera Kira Steward en la primavera del 2002. Ella viene de Hampton, Virginia y había visto que Hampton tenía este tipo de programas para que la gente aprendiera sobre el gobierno local. Y la idea es que la gente aprende sobre el gobierno local y luego se involucre a nivel de vecindario, o de manzanas si quiere más pequeño. O que participen en las juntas locales, los “boards” o “commissions,” ya sea a nivel de ciudad o de condado o del estado. Entonces adoptamos ese programa, le dimos la forma Raleigh. Creé un currículo con diferentes departamentos, al principio eran creo que ocho semanas. Hacíamos un tour por la ciudad el sábado y la semana siguiente era la graduación, se daba un certificado. A través de los años—ya vamos veintiún años con este programa—el currículo se ha ido expandiendo. Ahora son doce semanas. Estamos actualmente corriéndolo, ahora mismo. Virtual por las mañanas y en persona por la noche. Son doce semanas, no hacemos el tour ya, pero hacemos visitas al centro de adiestramiento de los bomberos. Y ahí conocen todo el equipo, ven una actuación de un incendio. Con los policías igual, vamos a un lugar y ahí conocen el staff, conocían equipo de explosivos, la unidad canina, la unidad montada a caballo. Hemos hecho un tour diferente. Hemos graduado quizás más de seiscientas personas. Algunos han llegado a ser concejales municipales. Algunos han sido inclusive representantes en la legislatura estatal. El programa español lo comenzamos en plena pandemia. Hemos graduado ya a quince y la idea es, pues, darle quizás más mercadeo, más promoción y que haya por lo menos diez estudiantes ya sea virtual o en persona. Y claro, llevamos con la intención de que se active esa comunidad y si es posible que sean voluntarios—cuando hacemos eventos a veces hace falta alguien que se conecte con la gente o que explique nuestros problemas, ahí pueden ser también voluntarios. Mi idea es, antes de terminar mi trabajo en mi tiempo aquí, dos años más, es crear un premio al voluntario del año, ósea el voluntario latino-hispano, de habla española. Sí que eso es algo en pensamiento. Pero este programa nos ha permitido inclusive ganar premios nacionales, el de Neighborhood College. Tenemos una academia también de liderazgo comunitario, eso vamos a empezar en el otoño en español. Esas son--. Es más corta, son seis semanas. Pero otra vez la idea es que estás aquí, ya tú vienes con una destreza, con un conocimiento, con unas ideas, con unas experiencias; vamos entonces a darte ahora más herramientas para que donde estés, donde vayas seas un elemento positivo en tu comunidad, en tu vecindario.
DV: ¿El Neighborhood College sigue en inglés y en español hoy en día?
LO: Estuvo en inglés hasta--. Bueno, y todavía, ¿no? Y el español lo comenzamos en el 2021, en plena pandemia, que es el Curso de Gobierno Local. Al principio le llamé taller, pero taller para muchos es como el mecánico.
DV: Sí.
LO: Entonces puse Curso de Gobierno Local. La idea es tratar de fusionarlo con la academia de liderazgo. Que sean diez semanas tocando departamentos básicos, con los departamentos con los que la gente más interactúa: policía, bomberos, agua, recreación, desperdicios sólidos. Nosotros que somos, tenemos que ver con vecindarios, con participación del ciudadano, cívica, y siempre la clase inicial es para que conozcan que es el gobierno de la ciudad y el condado. Que es lo que al fin de cuentas uno más contacta cada día. Ósea, lo que más impacto tiene en tu vida a diario es tu ciudad, las ordenanzas municipales. ¿Quién te recoge la basura? La ciudad. ¿Quién te provee agua? La ciudad. ¿Quién te aprueba la biblioteca? El condado, usualmente. ¿Las escuelas? Condado o ciudad. Depende de donde estés. Pero nos extraña a veces que es muy poca gente que conoce el gobierno local y mucha menos gente participa en elecciones locales. Un diez, un quince por ciento como mucho, de los electorados inscritos participan en elecciones municipales. Entonces creemos que este programa puede ser también una forma de que la gente, no digo que voten o no voten, pero que conozcan la importancia de participar en esos procesos o estar al tanto de que implican.
DV: Bueno y después de veintipico de años también debes de tener otras anécdotas u otros proyectos de los cuales nos puedas contar.
LO: Bueno anécdota, quiero compartirte dos anécdotas cómicas, pero también serias.
DV: Okay.
LO: Una vez me llamó una señora y me pregunta sobre alguno de nuestros programas en inglés. Y yo le contesto—esto es muy temprano en mi trayectoria aquí—y al final de la conversación me pregunta en inglés: “are you from Austria?” Y le digo: “no, I’m from Puerto Rico.” “Oh, because you sound like Arnold.” Y yo: “ya?” [Laughter]. Sueno como Arnold Schwarzenegger, bueno no sé, eso siempre se me ha quedado. Es como una experiencia--. Digo, no creo que lo haya hecho ella con mala intención. Pero, siempre me pareció algo cómico. Otra un poquito más seria. No me pasó a mí personalmente, pero estaba presente cuando llamaron a Aracelys. Estábamos organizando el festival Viva Raleigh, no recuerdo que años era, si 2008, 2010, o ’12. Y alguien la llama en inglés, una voz masculina diciéndole que porque hacen esta cosa para esos inmigrantes indocumentados, y que sé yo, que debería darles vergüenza y yo dije tómalo como de quién viene. De frente no es feliz, así que tomalo como alguien que no es feliz y no temas, no tengas miedo. Sabemos que no toda la gente apoya este tipo de gestión, este tipo de labor. Así que--. Ósea, son experiencias que recuerdo. Como te dije, cómicas, pero a la vez serias, ¿no? El poder conocer gente de origen bien humilde, gente que llega aquí buscando, como dicen muchos, algo mejor para mis hijos, para mi familia, mucha gente habla del sueño americano. Yo como historiador, y tú también estás en esa trayectoria, en el gremio, todavía cuestiono mucho que es esto del sueño americano. ¿Es un producto de Hollywood, es un artefacto en un concepto académico o es una mentira? ¿Es una noción que viene del ’50 de la posguerra y queremos reproducir que cada cual tiene su casa tiene, tiene su carro, todos son felices, o realmente el sueño puedes vivirlo en cualquier lugar? Entonces es un tema que obviamente sería bueno para un debate y quizás un café o una cerveza. Pero sí, me encanta que la gente venga, se supere, si pueden aprendan el idioma porque eso te da más herramientas, te da más seguridad. Aprovecha cuánta oportunidad hay. En estos últimos dos años el transporte público aquí en Raleigh ha sido gratis. El regional, los autobuses de Triangle Transit, han sido gratis. Pues mira, no te expongas a manejar sin licencia. Si el transporte público te ofrece una opción para llegar a tu trabajo, prejúzgalo y no te expongas a manejar sin licencia y una posible multa y la corte. Y en algunos casos inclusive cosas más trágicas como una deportación. Y todo esto se lo comparto a la gente. La preocupación que tenemos con los adultos mayores, trato de que en Raleigh haya más conciencia de los adultos hispanos. No solamente a la ciudad sino también a parques, recreo, y la misma comunidad, que sepan que aquí estamos y que queremos ser el primer, principal canal de información para quien quiera que venga a vivir a Raleigh. Una muchacha me contactó de Puerto Rico por Facebook a través de una de estas redes de boricuas en Carolina del Norte, algo así, y está a punto de mudarse. Pues he estado comunicándome con ella cada cierta frecuencia. “Hey, ¿cómo estás? ¿Cómo está el proceso?” “No, pues estoy buscando trabajo, no pues estoy buscando vivienda.” Entonces viene con una niña pequeña, mira pues aquí está este contacto para que te ayude con quizás la cuestión de las escuelas o los cuidados para niños, el “day care.” Eso me da mucha satisfacción, poder ayudar a la gente, informarles y, pues, otra vez lo que tengo no es mío. Lo hago mío cuando lo comparto. No sé si hay alguna otra experiencia, pero son veintiún años.
DV: Bueno, que—hablando de Facebook, ¿qué otros métodos usas tú para, como decimos en inglés “outreach,” para llevar el mensaje, para llevar todo esto? Dices que lo que no tienes pues yo lo comparto, ¿cómo lo compartes?
LO: Si, bueno en los primeros años que llegamos hemos visto como la tecnología ha ido cambiando. Antes era básicamente llevar volantes, los “flyers,” a los negocios, estar presente en cada festival o fiesta que había. Si había una celebración de un grupo particular, puertorriqueño, dominicano, colombiano, venezolano, tratábamos de estar ahí presentes. Y que ya conocieran un rostro y una persona, un nombre. Últimamente ya hemos utilizado más el Facebook, tenemos una página digamos no oficial. Se llama “Viva Raleigh North Carolina” que la creó Aracelys y yo la sigo utilizando, ahí ponemos información. Tiene un alcance de más de mil quinientos. Comparto con otros grupos que sé que existen, boricuas en Carolina o mexicanos en Carolina o Latinos en Raleigh, y eso de alguna manera llega a la gente. Recuerdo que no hace mucho una iglesia, una organización, estaba regalando comida y compartí el volante de ellos y fueron seis mil visualizaciones. Yo dije, la gente tiene hambre y era en plena pandemia que alguna gente quedó sin empleo o vieron sus horas reducidas, y cualquier oportunidad de conseguir una comprita, como hicimos una despensa gratis. Pues yo recuerdo seis miles, y wow, yo espero que tengan comida suficiente porque la gente iba a llegar. Y era un día específico o era específico así que dije, mira--. Ellos me preguntaban “hay que hacer hora para esto,” “y mire yo nada más te estoy compartiendo información cualquier cosita llame ahí, pero apúrese porque imagino que va a ver mucha gente.” Y eso me hace satisfacción. Usamos el Facebook, estamos ya la página de la ciudad tratando de hacerla más amigable, más diversa en cuanto a gente pueda bajar documentos, pueda bajar manuales. Estamos ahora mismo con UNC en el Language [Access] Collaborative asegurarnos de que todo lo que es vital y necesario que la gente conozca y sepa, esté en su idioma. Y ese es un proyecto que, me invitaron a ser parte de este grupo, Aracelys precisamente, y Sue Ellen, compañeros en Raleigh. Y pues sí, voy a tomarlo como algo para mis últimos dos años con la ciudad. Ese es un proyecto que estoy trabajando ahora mismo y con este grupo hemos comenzado la propuesta para crear historias de vecindarios, el Neighborhood History Project. Aquí en Raleigh hay vecindarios históricos como Boylan Heights de 1907, que tienen una trayectoria histórica y en su website tienen ya todo, publicaciones y fotos. Method Road es vecindario histórico también, estuvo la primera escuela para negros en Raleigh y todavía está allí parte del edificio en Method. Ellos tienen un grupo que se reúnen cada cierto tiempo y comparten historias y hacen unas presentaciones. Queremos apoyarlos para que eso vaya más allá de fotos y exhibiciones, puedan hacer publicaciones o inclusive un proyecto de historia oral que no se ha hecho, vamos entonces a ver, porque una vez se mueren o nos morimos, todo eso se va, se pierde. Y por eso es tan importante que todo esto lo comparta uno con sus hijos con sus nietos. Yo le comparto a mis hijos lo bueno y lo no tan bueno lo que hice. Para que vean. Porque siempre dios te cuidó, te protegió, pero tuviste que aprender a veces a cantazos, ¿no? Así que ese es otro proyecto que tengo en mente ahora, la historia de vecindarios. La idea es poder darles unos criterios o unas ideas pero que ellos produzcan los que quieran, sea eso historia oral, sea una publicación, quizás un calendario con fotos de lugares históricos a través del tiempo de su comunidad. Hay fondos para eso que podemos ofrecerles, es un incentivo. Y lo tercero sería llevar los programas de educación cívica, el Neighborhood College, el Curso de Gobierno Local, a un próximo nivel. No sé qué sea eso, pero actualmente aparte de los cursos los estudiantes hacen un proyecto, o diseñan un proyecto para su comunidad. Pues cómo llevar eso a un siguiente nivel, me quedan dos años para eso. Y claro cuando me vaya, dejar alguien o dejar a un equipo que no solamente haga el alcance al español sino reconociendo la diversidad que hay en Raleigh. Por ejemplo, tenemos español, tenemos inglés obviamente pero ya hay chino mandarín, hay coreano, hay swahili, hay alemán, entonces cómo podemos hacer que Iniciativas Hispano-Latinas, que es como se llama ahora, pues se convierta en un tipo de iniciativas multiétnicas o multilingües o multicultural, que es un concepto quizás muy utilizado. Ver cómo podemos ampliar ese alcance. Yo hablo un poquito de francés, pues hicimos un evento en una comunidad en Peach Road hace como dos meses y ahí estaba batallándome con una señora de una nación africana con lo poquito de francés, porque compartíamos el francés. Ella swahili, yo el español, pero el francés era un idioma en común. Una compañera mía ahora mismo, Jayna, habla alemán y francés. Y le dije, “Jayna tenemos que empezar a utilizar eso.” Ese francés y alemán que es su idioma nativo, o vernáculo, y cómo podemos identificarlo. Y ya sea publicaciones o videos cortos que hagamos y aquí entraría entonces otro canal, el YouTube o el Vimeo. Qué fácil es compartir un enlace y la gente lo ve. Videos yo digo no más de cinco minutos, y si es para un evento treinta segundos debe ser suficiente.
DV: Bueno, ¿y algunos retos que has tenido en tu trayectoria hasta hoy?
LO: Mira, siempre me ha llamado la atención, y no créase que me ha molestado, pero cuando quizás no pronuncia una palabra bien en inglés y la gente me dice “¿qué dijiste, esto?” Qué sé yo. En vez de piso entendieron que dije pito. Eso siempre me ha llamado la atención, ¿por qué me corrige de esa manera? No sé, eso siempre me ha parecido algo como que incómodo. Y ahora en estos tiempos sería algo que tú puedes quejarte con recursos humanos. Por toda la cuestión de diversidad e inclusión que me parece que es muy positivo de mucha manera, eso siempre ha sido algo interesante que he sentido. Un reto quizás también ha sido el mantenerme motivado. Con todo lo que uno ve que pasa en el mundo, y creo que el mundo siempre ha estado en guerra, pero me parece que en esta época estamos sintiendo más esa presión de conflicto entre naciones. Que si los rusos, que si los chinos, que si Taiwán, si Estados Unidos. Eso me hace pensar, bueno cómo puedo mantener a una gente animada, estimulada, con la pasión de activarse en su comunidad, de dar sus talentos, de manifestar su pasión, cuando la sensación puede ser de un mundo que cada vez está peor. O que la violencia cada vez está más rampante. Este es un país donde tuvimos el año pasado 650 “shootings.” Estamos hablando de por lo menos dos por día. Y cuántas vidas se perdieron en esa--. Se me escapa la palabra ahora, no fueron matanzas, pero siempre hubo muertos. Hay partes en ciertas ciudades donde toda la noche la gente duerme con disparos como trasfondo musical. Entonces, cómo mantener la gente motivada, estimulada, a pesar de que eso está ocurriendo. O cómo podemos ser agentes que provocamos el cambio en ese sentido. Y claro, cada mañana a despertarte sabiendo que vas a trabajar ocho o diez horas, que tenías que tomar el camión o manejar tu auto. Obviamente Luis no es el mismo ahora a los sesenta y un años casi, que era a los treinta y nueve y que era a los veintiunos. Pero creo que hay algo que tengo que se ha--. Que ha permanecido, y es siempre el tratar de ver el lado jocoso a las cosas, el lado feliz, el lado contento. Superar cualquier prejuicio que haya tenido, cualquiera mala concepción y aquí voy a hacer una confesión. Para mí los hindúes eran gente que era muy creída. Yo veía a los hindúes y me parecían gente creída. No sé por qué razón sea. Pues la vida, dios, me permitió que tomando el autobús conociera mucho, muchos hindúes que se suben en RTP porque van para Durham o van para Chapel Hill, como tomo el autobús, y que muchos han sido amigos míos eventualmente. Y más extremo aún que mi sobrina en México, su esposo, y a quienes case en una ceremonia en México hace ya dos años, sea hindú. Entonces yo creo que dicen: al que no quiere caldo le dan dos tasas. Pues, creo que eso es algo--. Me enseñó que no debes tener malas impresiones de la gente independientemente del origen nacional que tengan o la impresión que te causen. Hay que superar eso y creo que eso es algo que es todavía como mundo y como país tenemos que superar, y creo que si pudiéramos superar es—y ahí la clave es el amor—creo que veremos muchos cambios inmediatos. Y un tercer reto, me preocupa mucho el manejo de la basura o desperdicio, la apariencia que a veces vemos en la calle, en las ciudades. Siempre he dicho, y esto lo aprendí de uno de mis supervisores, si la gente utilizara las tres p: “pick up trash,” recoge la basura, “plant some flowers,” planta unas flores, y pinta las paredes, “paint the walls,” ves el cambio inmediato. Eso me gustaría poder promoverlo en mis comunidades, en la misma propia mía, en donde vivo, en Durham, y dondequiera que vaya, que podamos recorrer la basura, plantar flores, y pintar las paredes. Un problema grave en muchas ciudades, lo he visto aquí en Raleigh, lo he visto en Durham, y en San Juan, Puerto Rico, es el grafiti. Y lo he visto en México, Ciudad de México. ¿Sabes cuál es la clave?a para el grafiti? No puedes dejarlo. Si lo dejas, estás invitando a que vengan más; grafiti tienes que eliminarlo. ¿Y cuál es una alternativa bonita? Haz murales. Murales que cuentan la historia de la comunidad, la historia del vecindario, la historia del país, o un personaje en particular, y el grafitero, digamos no legal, respeta el mural. Eso es algo que he visto.
DV: ¿Has tenido proyectos con murales aquí en Raleigh?
LO: Con los fondos oficiales hemos auspiciado murales en el Peace Street. Eventualmente un cambio de dueño de un negocio, el mural desapareció. Pero algo que estamos promoviendo ahora con fondos para los vecindarios: ahora se hace mucho el pintar con tiza en la calle, el “street chalk painting,” que no perdura para--. No dura para siempre. Al primer aguacero ya desaparece. Pero, otra vez, es forma de relatar historia o de lo que en ese momento el niño, la niña, o el joven, adulto quiere compartir, pues ahí lo armamos. Y definitivamente el arte, la cultura, la música. Vengo de una familia musical, definitivamente es tan necesario como el agua y el sol.
DV: Bien. Y bueno, ya me has hablado de tu educación y de tu formación, y que muchas de estas experiencias te han llevado a aprender y a tener otras experiencias parecidas. ¿Cuáles dirías que fueron los factores que más te ayudaron al largo del camino? ¿Otros factores, como ya dijiste que aprender de tus propias experiencias?
LO: Bueno, definitivamente mis padres ambos fueron educadores, mi papá fue ministro bautista, fue director de coro, reconocido en América Latina y en gran parte del mundo, América y Europa. Mi madre fue maestra de escuela y de universidad. Mis abuelos, pues igual. Los que no fueron pastores fueron educadores. Siempre tuvieron que ser como influencias vitales, importantes, como factores a lo largo de mi vida. De mi tío siempre he aprendido también, y mis tías. Pero experiencias concretas como tal, definitivamente el haber este probado la mariguana en la high school yo creo que--. Y haber sido parte de la juntilla que mencione anteriormente. Yo creo que esas experiencias te ayudan a entender qué es ser un estudiante rebelde, o qué es ser un estudiante que quizás la escuela no le interesa o le aburre, porque sucede. Estudiantes que la escuela le aburre y lo más fácil es salirte de ella, desconectarte. Creo que eso fue un factor que me enseñó a ver la vida también desde ese ángulo. El haberme criado con familia musical definitivamente no hay día que pase sin que me levante con un tono musical en la mente, o si estaba escuchando un disco, una grabación, la tengo todo el día. Y eso me ayuda también a tener siempre en la cabeza un pensamiento, una melodía, una letra de una canción, un versículo bíblico. En uno de mis trabajos con voluntarios siempre digo al grupo, a mi audiencia, traten de levantarse con un pasaje bíblico, les digo un salmo, el Señor es tu pastor, y eso mastícalo todo el día como la vaca, hasta que se vuelva líquido y lo absorban. Ósea, ¿qué significa para ti que el Señor es tu pastor? Que te cuida, que te provee. La vida es bella, ¿qué te dice eso a ti? La vida es bella, todo el día tener siempre eso creo que es un factor que me ayuda también a mantenerme animado con vida y estimulado. Yo creo que las experiencias tanto de pequeño en Boston, aunque no recuerde mucho, donde me crie en Puerto Ricos, me crie parte en un seminario donde vivía facultad, estudiantes, esa interacción con niños, con adultos, y con jóvenes a lo largo de mí--. Desde mis cinco años quizás hasta mis veinticinco, creo que es un factor también. El vivir frente a la universidad de Puerto Rico, esa misma época también, fui parte de cuanto encuentro y protesta hubo, hasta que fui parte de ellos activamente en el ’81 hasta los ’82. Creo que misma experiencia de poder viajar por el mundo, parte de América Latina, parte de Europa, Estados Unidos, pues creo que eso te ayuda a abrir tu mente y a poderte comparar—pero comparar para edificar, para construir, no para criticar. Aquí en Carolina ser parte de la junta de directores, el “board” de la biblioteca de Durham, la Biblioteca Pública de Durham, otra experiencia de liderazgo y también me ha ayudado a ver la necesidad de apoyar ese tipo de ambientes, pero también que la gente conozca lo oficioso de tener bibliotecas públicas donde hay libros que no importa el origen de libros, tú puedes tener acceso a ellos. Yo estuve en Cuba y tuve otra experiencia. Y fui a una biblioteca pública allí en Las Tunas, Cuba y obviamente la diversidad de libros era mucho menos, y la temática era muy enfocada a lo que el gobierno quiere promover y defender. Pues hay una diferencia. Ahora el hecho de que algunas bibliotecas en algunos estados estén eliminando ciertos libros porque los temas no les parecen buenos, eso me preocupa. Porque toquen temas de cuestiones sexuales o temas de--. No sé. Cosas que como que chocan, pero no extrañas en un mundo tan diverso como este de mentalidades. El haber sido parte de la junta y “chair” de la junta, o presidente de la junta de las Sociedades Hispanas Profesionales, pues defender programas que promuevan la educación, la retención escolar, becas para estudiantes. Mi esposa y yo actualmente apoyamos una beca para estudiantes que vayan a “community college” a través de la sociedad, y apoyamos una para estudiantes hispanos en NC State. Creemos que es importante, aunque es un poquito, compartir de lo que hemos recibido, apoyar y promover ese tipo de experiencias. Eso también me ha ayudado a cultivar en mí la generosidad. Cuando mi espíritu me dice hazlo o dios me dice dale, no lo pienso dos veces porque sé que ya es algo que esta en mí. El compromiso con el ambiente. Aquí hay una anécdota cómica, mi hija se bañaba cuando tenía como cinco años y guardaba las botellas de shampoo que tenían formas de peces. Y un día yo llego y veo que tiene muchas botellas y que la reciclo y dejo una. ¿Para qué fue eso? Hasta el día de hoy, mi hija tiene ahora veintinueve años y me dice, “¿te acuerdas papi reciclador?” Ósea, no me perdona, digo me perdona, ¿no? Pero no olvida el que le reciclé a sus--. Tenía como seis o siete botellas de shampoo con formas de pescado de diferentes colores y le dejé nada más una. Pero creo que, pues por el lado bueno, ese compromiso con el ambiente, con la defensa de la tierra, con amar la tierra. Me preocupa cuando los jóvenes ya no conocen la tierra. Todo lo que comen viene empacado, enlatado, o procesado y no tiene experiencia de ir a una finca y ver cómo crece una planta de café o un árbol de mango, lo que sea. Esa experiencia de ensuciarse las uñas con la tierra y vivir la experiencia de ver una planta crecer. Me preocupa eso, y creo que hay que fomentar eso en alguna manera. Todas esas experiencias yo creo que--. Experiencias que hemos tenido en mi familia de enfermedad, pues sí, ver eso cuenta como crecimiento. Madurez espiritual, y mental, y emocional definitivamente, los viajes que he podido hacer. Que creo todos esos factores han influenciado. Pero definitivamente creo que la experiencia más fundamental y más profunda ha sido el emigrar de Puerto Rico a Carolina del Norte. Aunque tenemos con fortuna la categoría de ciudadanos americanos, aunque eso es una discusión también, pero definitivamente dejar la tierra que te vio nacer, el clima en el cual te criaste, a mí me encanta estar en pantalones cortos y descalzo. Aquí no siempre puedes estar así. El ver la isla desde afuera. Ver Puerto Rico desde afuera. Como dije, ya lo había vivido en Florida State, y eso me inspiró un poema que ganó premio. Verlo ahora, pues me inspira otras cosas. Mis hijos en un momento dado preguntaban, sobre todo mi hijo preguntaba, “¿y yo qué soy?” Porque este es mexicano--. Mi esposa dice pues tú eres humano de tres mundos. Eres boricua, eres mexicano, y eres americano norteamericano, estadounidense. Nació en México, pero sirve en la milicia entonces tuvo que juramentar y renunciar a su mexicanidad en términos de categoría política. La experiencia de trabajar aquí, pues, diferentes compañeros a lo largo de veintiún años creo que es un factor importante. He aprendido a entender lo que es la mentalidad y el carácter sureño. Ya conocía a otras áreas. El medio oeste, conocía el noreste, pero lo que es el sur realmente te das cuenta de que hay variantes, hay diferencias. A pesar de que Hollywood quiera promoverte una cultura americana única--.
DV: Uniforme.
LO: Uniforme, exacto, a través de los “sitcoms” o la televisión, o vas por las interestatales y todo se parece lo mismo. Tienes que mirar más allá del Walmart y del Texaco para darte cuenta que hay diferencias geográficas y culturales e históricas. La oportunidad de seguir enseñando aquí en Durham Tech, historia de estados unidos e historia mundial, pues verla ahora con otras experiencias, con otras perspectivas, pero también integrando todo lo que traigo de mis años anteriores.
DV: Cuénteme detalles de esos otros proyectos que tienes afuera de aquí, de la Ciudad de Raleigh. Por ejemplo, has enseñando historia en Durham Tech ya varios años, ¿cierto?
LO: Sí. Bueno, comencé en el 2003--.
DV: Has sido pasto
LO: Sí, en Durham Tech empecé en el 2003 enseñando español en educación continua. Cuando termino la maestría en español, entonces voy y llevo mis papeles, mi documentación. Ahí me entrevista Connie Gómez, excelente compañera, una de las vicepresidentes ahora de Durham Tech, y empezó a enseñar español y eventualmente también enseño historia. Sentía que querían hacer historia. Al momento enseño cursos online de historia de Estados Unidos, historia mundial, e historia occidental. Otra vez, trayendo siempre mis experiencias, pero a través de los estudiantes también aprendo. Y me doy cuenta que ahora cuando veo el elenco, o el roster, la lista de nombres tiene estudiantes hispanos, tienes africanos, tienes asiático, algo que quizás veinte años atrás no hubiera avisto cuando comencé en Durham Tech. No había esa diversidad de estudiantes, y yo les pido a ellos por lo menos tres veces al semestre que nos reunamos virtualmente, hacemos una conversación diez, quince, minutos. Creo que es importante esa interacción social, aunque sea virtual o a través de una cámara, y yo creo que aprendemos mucho de ambas partes. Me mantengo enseñando hasta que la mente funcione. Me mantengo investigando la presencia boricua en North Carolina. Un proyecto que llevo ya como 5 años desarrollando. La próxima etapa sería ya historias orales y negocios boricuas en North Carolina, esa es otra área que quiero explorar ahora o más adelante que me retire. La experiencia pastoral, pues sí, como te dije me crie en la iglesia. Tengo una convicción, una fe, no aprendida sino personal. Acá con mi cuñado desarrollamos obras hispanas en Virginia, en Carolina, aquí en Chapel Hill. Tuvimos una obra en una iglesia entrando a Chapel Hill, Grace Church, por catorce años. Ahora mismo no tenemos una congregación como tal, pero tenemos una virtual cada domingo y compartimos mensajes, comunión, música. Enseño online cursos de teología, temas teológicos. Sigo estudiando doctorado en teología, pero también son oportunidades también para alcanzar, y claro compartes una fe, compartes una perspectiva teológica, pero también ves necesidades. Y siempre que he estado con alguien he compartido también cómo puedo de alguna manera, como parte de mi trabajo con la ciudad, apoyar o educar o integrar más allá de la cuestión de la fe, o independientemente de la fe. El trabajo con adultos mayores que es algo que también, por mi esposa, he aprendido a amar y a valorar. Y capellán con los Durham Bulls. Soy el que hace la capilla cada domingo de juego local a los jugadores latinos o que hablan español, aunque a veces me toca hacer las dos. Esa es otra experiencia también de alcance porque son jóvenes que están aquí, aún ya la próxima temporada no están, y mientras están aquí queremos hacerles su estadía placentera y que siempre sientan que tienen aquí alguien que pueda apoyarlos, orar por ellos. Hubo uno que, cuando la pasada temporada huracán, su casa estuvo afectada. Ahí buscamos recoger fondos y enviárselos para que deje su casa y se fuera a en un Airbnb en lo que pasaba todo el efecto del huracán, cosas así. Que también es un tipo de liderazgo pero que no porque tú lo buscas sino porque lo sientes. Sientes tomar iniciativa. Sientes servir, y creo que servir también cuando te sale del corazón. En las comunidades yo digo que uno puede participar de un evento porque de repente surgió, o llegaste, o coincidió que estabas allí y pues ni modo, te toco. Puedes ser voluntario porque te conviene dar la cara o porque tienes que acumular unas horas de voluntario, pues te apuntaste, cumpliste con eso y ya, saliste del compromiso. Pero ya cuando hay, lo que llaman en inglés “involvement,” ósea ya cuando te involucras, ya hay algo de pasión, ya hay algo ahí de que tú tienes algo que dar, algo a aportar. Pero ya cuando te “engage,” cuando te comprometes, ahí está el corazón, de por medio. Eso me parece que todos y todas tenemos la posibilidad de pasar por esas etapas en diferentes momentos, y yo sé que toda la gente, todos—y ahora hablando de hispanos y latinos—tenemos algo que aportar, independientemente del origen, de la trayectoria, de trasfondo.
DV: Pues hablando de esto, de hispanos que tienen mucho que aportar, para concluir, ¿qué consejos les darías a futuros líderes latinos?
LO: Mira, últimos, yo diría 10 años, y algo que sigo practicando, siempre he recomendado a alguien que tenga un mentor. Casi siempre sugiero que sea, si es hombre para que tenga un mentor hombre, sí mujer, mujer. Pues, en términos de que tenemos muchas experiencias en común que quizás no tengo como una mujer. Vaya. O podemos ser más abiertos. No sé, eso se puede interpretar de muchas maneras, pero a lo que voy: tener un mentor. Alguien que tú puedas semanalmente, o quincenalmente, o mensualmente, o quizás por temporada, pues mira, nos reunimos, comemos, tomamos algo o nos encontramos. Pero ayúdame a crecer, ayúdame a entender o compartir preocupaciones, ideas. Creo que es importante que cada cual tenga un mentor o mentora, a veces alguien fuera de familia, a veces alguien en la escuela, en la iglesia, en el trabajo, pero es importante ese mentor o mentora. Otros llaman consejeros, orientador. Me gusta usar la mentoría. Descubrir cuáles son tus pasiones, ósea que es algo que te provoca, que te anima, que te estimula. ¿Es el hecho de que la gente todavía pasa hambre? ¿Son las mascotas abandonadas, los perros o gatitos? ¿Es la gente que no tiene vivienda? ¿La gente que no puede pagar una vivienda porque cada vez es más cara? Cuando yo llegué a Raleigh, aquí había un apartamento de un cuarto, eran quinientos dólares. Ahora son mil trescientos por una habitación, ósea es casi el triple, y el salario mínimo ha aumentado un dólar cincuenta centavos. ¿Eso es una “mofa,” no? Pero eso sería otra discusión, otra cerveza, otro café. Descubrir tus pasiones, ósea que es aquello. Procurarte cuantas oportunidades tanto tengas de educación, ya sea un curso de un día, ya sea una conferencia, alguien que vas a escuchar que va a hablar, cursos formales, ya sea un curso de un semestre de un año, la opción de ir a la universidad o colegio comunitario, creo que es importante. Ósea, mantenernos constantemente, educándonos en sentido formal. Yo he dicho, la vida es un proceso constante de aprendizaje. “Life is a long--.” Se escapa ahora en inglés como es que digo, pero la vida es un constante aprender. Pero ciertamente también eso incluye la educación formal. Entonces siempre que hay una oportunidad de aprender algo, o una destreza, o estimular tu pensamiento, pues hacerlo, por ese lado. Valores, tener claro cuáles son tus valores. ¿Qué es lo que tú afirmas? ¿Como tú te identificas? ¿Qué es lo que tú defiendes? ¿Defiendes la justicia? ¿Defiendes el amor? ¿Defiendes la paz? Es importante que uno sepa cuáles son tus valores. ¿Crees en la familia? ¿Crees, que sé yo, en la tierra, en el planeta, la importancia del agua? Cosa como esas, creo que es importante tener alguien que tú puedes decir que son tus influencias. Ósea, yo puedo mirar quizás a mi padre, Luis Olivieri-Gómez, puedo mirar quizás a mi abuela Carmen Luis-Santos Aponte, puedo mirar quizás a personajes que he conocido, a uno de mis antiguos supervisores, al pastor que me casó. Entonces que yo pueda tener por lo menos mi lista de cinco personas que yo sé que han influido en mi vida, digo que he conocido personalmente. Hay algunas que te influyen porque escuchaste de ellas o viste la película, Madre Teresa.
DV: Modelos a seguir.
LO: Sí, Gandhi, Jesús, qué sé yo. No voy a entrar a política, pero me explico. Creo que eso es importante, y tener un plan de vida. ¿Dónde te visualizas en un año? Donde de visualizas en cinco años, en 10 años, tener visión. Dice la biblia, mi pueblo padece por falta de visión. ¿Si no hay visión, hacia dónde vamos? ¿Qué queremos lograr? Se da mucho en América Latina. Dejamos todo a los políticos, a los presidentes, y yo creo que es importante, así como en el vecindario—es tu unidad quizás más inmediata, la comunidad. En ese sentido yo soy medio Bakunin, la ideología este anarquista. La no creencia del estado y más bien la fragmentación en pequeñas unidades políticas, pequeñas comunidades. Creo que cuando podemos operar a un nivel más pequeño es más posible cambio, la transformación. Si dejamos todo al aparato grande, al macro, a veces como que no vemos el cambio, como que es más difícil. Si podemos hacer ese cambio comenzando por tu calle, por tu piso. Que conozcas a tu gente, a tu norte, a tu sur, tu este, y tu oeste. Que vaya más allá de un saludo, el clásico desde el auto, “hi,” “hi.” No, este, invítalos a un “barbecue” en tu casa, no sé, cosas así. Creo que eso es importante, dónde te ves de unos a cinco o diez años, y qué pues hacer en donde está mismo ahora, cómo puedes hacer un cambio. Creo que esas experiencias de intercambio, de interactuar con la gente, uno también va creciendo y desarrollas el liderazgo. Porque te vas descubriendo: en qué creo, que es lo que me hace palpitar el corazón, que me provoca coraje, qué me provoca el llanto. Creo que la vida es corta. La vida comparada con la eternidad, la vida comprada con universo, es corta. Uno puede vivir, dice la Biblia, 120 años, y hemos visto que eso es así. Tengo un amigo, un conocido, que murió de ciento trece años, murió el año pasado, Emilio Flores Márquez, puertorriqueño. Fue el hombre vivo de mayor edad por dos meses, según el libro Guinness. Y Don Emilio dice, y yo lo siento como un mensaje: aprendió de sus pares el dar lo que tiene, él compartir lo que tiene. Aprendió que amando es como realmente se vive feliz, y así vivió hasta que tuvo conciencia de sí. Entonces yo puedo dar muchas prácticas, experiencias, y compartir, pero me gustaría, pues, quien escuche esto y sienta esa inquietud, que nos contacte. Porque de alguna manera uno puede hacer una influencia positiva o poner ese granito, esa semilla, que de un fruto abundante. Muchos jóvenes se frustran porque no pueden estudiar, porque cuesta mucho la universidad o el problema que yo quiero. Yo digo aquí que las universidades no son públicas, ósea son del estado. Si fueran públicas serían mucho más accesibles, el costo. Hay países de América Latina, Europa, donde el costo es mucho más, mucho, mucho, mucho menor, pero claro tienes que ganarte el poder estar en la universidad. Hay unos exámenes--.
DV: El puesto.
LO: Exactos. Exámenes que tomas para cierta facultad, y es lo que mi esposa vivió en México. Pero si el costo es un reto, yo siempre digo a los estudiantes que se van a graduar de escuela superior y quieren seguir en la universidad, les digo, “¿tú conoces 50 personas en tu vida?” “Sí.” “¿Y esas personas, tú crees que te quieren?” “Sí.” “¿Conoces cien?” Es posible, a esos cincuenta o cien personas, compárteles lo que es tu proyecto a un año, o cuatro, o 5 años. Escríbeles, no les envíes un email, escríbeles de puño y letra, o algo que imprimas pero que lo firmen. Una foto tuya para que te vean y diles lo que es tu sueño, y si pudieran en su corazón colaborarte con sus pensamientos, con sus oraciones, y si posible con un donativo. Si tú tienes cincuenta personas, y te dan cien dólares, y cien dólares lo gastas uno en el Kankis o en el chino, en alguna cena familiar, o un juego de NC State o de UNC fútbol, porque son bien caros. Cien dólares, fácil. Cincuenta por cien son cinco mil dólares. Ya ahí cubriste un semestre de universidad. Porque a veces la beca no la puedes conseguir porque no tienes derecho a ella, o porque no te tocó, pero tienes gente que tú vas a ser partícipe o parte de esa experiencia tuya de crecer intelectualmente, profesionalmente. Entonces, yo siempre digo a amistades o con los que yo trabajo: ah, se graduó tu hija, espero su carta. Pues ahí vamos.
DV: Bueno Luis, muchas gracias. Gracias por estar con nosotros y compartir tu historia.
LO: A ti, Daniel, y al equipo.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Transcriber: Daniel Velásquez and Sofia Godoy
Interview Date: 2023 April 5
Date of Transcription: 2023 July 10, 2023 October 18
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
R-1009 -- Olivieri-Robert, Luis.
Description
An account of the resource
Luis Olivieri-Robert is Community Relations Analyst for the City of Raleigh, a role through which he has served Latine and migrant communities since moving to North Carolina from his native Puerto Rico in 2002. He recounts his early life, educational experiences, and professional development in Puerto Rico and the continental U.S., having taught at the university level in both settings. Throughout, Luis highlights his international travel, life-long commitment with environmental responsibility, activism related to Puerto Rico’s independence, and his faith and Church involvement as key formative experiences that continue to inform his endeavors. Working for the City of Raleigh, he and his team have strived to be the “first channel of information” for Latine newcomers, connecting people with city services and housing and work opportunities. Luis has also been involved in numerous outreach initiatives, from celebrations like the Viva Raleigh Festival to educational efforts to expand civic participation like the Raleigh Neighborhood College. He describes his activities outside the City and recognizes challenges he has faced, such as remaining motivated in the face demoralizing social developments. Lastly, he encourages future leaders to seek mentorship, seize educational opportunities, and take on issues that align with their goals and passions.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-04-05
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29343">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
R1009_Audio.mp3
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/f89a388ba7f21edd7ab09b287a9a71ea.mp3
2afbf8e01b8fa873bea769416b85d944
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/60c473a9b2d7b3ca4bdeeb65b7569816.pdf
7d14ddcfbc9597cfab8de3d9626a5ac1
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-1007
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
Fecha
2022-11-18
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Benítez, Hannia.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Directors, NGOs and institutes
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1992
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Guatemala
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Sanford -- Lee County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-90.345759 15.5855545),1992,1;POINT(-79.1749267578125 35.490474700927734),1997,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Velásquez, Daniel.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Born in Guatemala but raised in Siler City, North Carolina, Hannia Benítez currently serves her local communities as Deputy Director at El Vínculo Hispano/The Hispanic Liaison’s office in Lee County and as Chair of Siler City’s Immigrant Community Advisory Committee (ICAC). Hannia shares her foundational experiences, including the need to be her family’s interpreter during her childhood and her engagement in several clubs throughout High School. A few years later, the advent of the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program helped her during a difficult time in her personal life by opening opportunities for employment and education. While working in the housing sector, Hannia joined the Board of Directors of El Vínculo Hispano, eventually serving as board chair and later transitioning to staff as deputy director of El Vínculo’s first satellite office in Lee County. Lastly, she shares her experience during her first year serving in ICAC, which she explains has been a time for asking questions and learning the workings of local government in order to position their efforts in the coming years. Throughout, Hannia shares advice for future leaders by describing her sense of responsibility for the people and communities that she serves while showing grace and kindness in the face of adversity.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Hannia Benítez by Daniel Velásquez, 18 November 2022, R-1007, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29337
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Community and social services and programs; DREAMers and DACA; Family; Leadership; Social networks
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Directores de ONG e institutos
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Nacida en Guatemala pero criada en Siler City, Carolina del Norte, Hannia Benítez sirve actualmente a sus comunidades locales como Subdirectora en la oficina del Condado Lee de El Vínculo Hispano/The Hispanic Liaison, y como Presidenta del Comité Asesor de la Comunidad Inmigrante (ICAC, por sus siglas in inglés) de Siler City. Hannia comparte sus experiencias fundacionales, incluyendo la necesidad de ser la intérprete de su familia durante la infancia y su participación y liderazgo en varios clubes a lo largo de la escuela secundaria. Unos años más tarde, la llegada del programa federal de Acción Diferida para los Llegados en la Infancia (DACA, por sus siglas en inglés) la ayudó durante un momento difícil de su vida personal, ya que le abrió oportunidades de empleo y educación. Mientras trabajaba en el sector de vivienda, Hannia se unió a la Junta Directiva de El Vínculo Hispano, eventualmente sirviendo como presidenta de la junta. Luego se unió al personal como subdirectora de la primera oficina satélite de El Vínculo en el Condado Lee. Por último, comparte su experiencia durante su primer año de servicio en ICAC, que explica ha sido un tiempo para hacer preguntas y aprender el funcionamiento del gobierno local con el fin de posicionar sus esfuerzos en los próximos años. En todo momento, Hannia comparte consejos para futuros líderes describiendo su sentido de responsabilidad hacia las personas y las comunidades a las que sirve, y mostrando a la vez gracia y amabilidad ante la adversidad.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Hannia Benítez por Daniel Velásquez, 18 November 2022, R-1007, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios; Movimiento de jóvenes 'Soñadores' y Acción Diferida; Liderazgo; Familia; Redes sociales
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Daniel Velásquez: Hannia Benítez is Deputy Director at El Vínculo Hispano, the Hispanic Liaison, and Chair of ICAC, the Immigrant Community Advisory Council at Siler City. I'm Daniel Velásquez. I am interviewing you today for your oral history. Thank you for being with me today. It is November 18, 2022.
Hannia Benítez: Thank you for having me, Daniel.
DV: Hannia, let's get started by talking about your early life, your background, and set the context for us.
HB: Okay, so my name is Hannia Benítez. I was born in Guatemala, but I came to the United States at an early age. I grew up in Chatham County, North Carolina. I am the oldest daughter de mi mami and the oldest granddaughter out of more than twenty grandchildren. I identify as Hispanic Latina. I am currently deputy director for the Hispanic Liaison.
DV: Awesome. Great.
HB: And I am a mother of three beautiful children. I have a twelve-year-old, a ten-year-old, and a two-year-old. Married for ten years. And we also have a little fur baby, Milo. [Laughter].
DV: Great, so you were born in Guatemala. How long have you lived in United States then?
HB: It’s been over 25 years. I was born in ’92. I came to the United States when I was about four or five years old, but our first thought was Los Angeles, where my grandmother was living, and she currently lives there. And then a few years, within one or two years, then we moved here to North Carolina to join the rest of mis tíos, my mother’s youngest brothers and sisters that actually lived in Siler City, so that is where I grew up in.
DV: Maybe just tell me a little bit more about growing up here in North Carolina, in Siler City.
HB: Well, how do I describe it? Well, I guess when we--. I guess just from the beginning, so just to give you context my mother was a single mother with two daughters. My other sister, that is two years younger than I. She used to be a, what would you call it, like a pre-school teacher in Guatemala, so coming to the area she would, when we first got here, she would try to teach us, well mostly me, the basics of el abecedario, the alphabet, the numbers. Everything, she would do it in Spanish because she tells me, te lo voy a enseñar en español and allá en la escuela lo aprendes en inglés, so I’m going to teach it to you in Spanish, and you need to learn it in English in school. And I did just that. Whenever she came here, she worked for--. She started working several odd jobs, but then stayed at the chicken plant at that time. She worked there for several years. The biggest priorities, the biggest important things that she would say, edúquense, you know, educate yourself, learn a lot. And so, our biggest focus was on that, just learning as much as we could, learning the language, learning so many different topics. In school, being the oldest, I often found myself being like the interpreter or the translator for my mom, and then it translated with other family members. And because they would have this expression, like, para eso vas a la escuela. That's why you're going to school. So, you need to know what it is. And sometimes it would start with school messages that were sent home, and they were only in English. And she's like, ¿Qué dice? What did that say? And so, I would tell her mom, they're talking about this, this, this, this and that and trying to get her to understand what they were trying to say and what they wanted her to do. And then that then translated to the other aspects of our lives where I started having to understand how other systems work to be able to explain it to my mom, but at the same time there's still always that passion in school I loved. I'm not going to say reading, no I love reading, it was writing that I just struggled with it because there were so many thoughts in my mind, I was like I don’t know how to put it bien. Yeah, I always loved it. We were in the traditional ESL program. When I say traditional, it would be they pull all of us that are native Spanish speakers. They pull us out of the class. They teach us some English, and they put us back in. Unfortunately, I saw many other students that that was not helpful for. But, you know, I can say I was a little bit more fortunate that although my mom didn't speak English, but she had the basic foundations in Spanish that she just kept on trying at home. And then I also tried to learn everything. I was like, okay, I got to learn about, you know. So, I was in the ESL program for several years. Then I graduated out of it, I think, maybe second or third grade. And it transitioned into the AIG program, the Academic and Intellectually Gifted. And there was a group of other students that we grew up with that were also part of the ESL program that were in that as well. So, it was just a lot of that focus on education and trying to learn. And so, that was just elementary school. Like I said, being the oldest, I was always a para arriba para abajo with a single mom. The father figures that stepped in were obviously mis tíos, and so, I would love to be with them outside. You would not see Hannia in the traditional role of being in the kitchen. My mom would always be like, Hannia, come and learn how to cook. And I would look from a distance, and I'm like, okay, I know the basics. I know how to do eggs. And then I would, I'm like, ma, I have homework. Tengo mucha tarea. And so, I would go back into the room, go do my homework. And when I finished that, then I would be outside. You would see Hannia, there was a storage next to the trailer, and you would see Hannia on top of the roof and jumping from the roof and playing with my male cousins and yeah, just doing the non-traditional female roles. And it was a little bit different with my younger sister because she loved to cook. She loved learning all the traditional dishes that was going on in the kitchen. So yeah, that's what you would see. Hannia would be out there throwing rocks. We would just be using our imagination outside and just wandering around with my cousins. And then there was the school, so my focus was school, family, school, family. It continued all through middle school as well, and then high school the same way, very much inclined to education. Middle school is when I started learning a little bit more about clubs, like Beta Club, and obviously in part because of the academics. But in high school is when we started seeing more different types of clubs because middle school it was the academics, but then other areas that I started desarrollando my leadership was in the communities of faith, when I was 12. Which was something we didn't grow up with. My mom never talked about religion, none of that. Like, we never knew about churches. It was until about--. I was 11 or 12, that one of my uncles got married, and his wife was going to church. It was funny, because they would always take me, I was their mini chaperone when they were dating. So everywhere they were going, they would take me. And so, one of the places that they started taking me was at a Community of Faith in Asheboro, about 30 minutes from Siler City. And so, I remember the first day I went to that congregation, I saw youth about my age that were playing music. At that time, I was also in band in school, playing the trumpet, the quietest musical instrument around.
DV: Sure. [Laughter].
HB: And I remember seeing a kid about my age. I was 11, and he was 13. And he was up there. And he was playing the instrument. It sounded so cool. Other kids my age was playing piano. I was like, oh my gosh. I want a space. I want to be here and see other things. And so, within that space, I quickly asked the leaders they call them I think ushers in English but at the church they would call them diáconos or servidores and I was like I want to help. Put me wherever, and they were like okay we'll do that. And Hannia was up there sweeping in church, and every service they would have Hannia in childcare in the back and in sala-cuna or the nursery. And so, I would be out there and I would love engaging and they would talk about, okay you know Sunday school, teach this to the children, learn about this. So I was doing that but then also learning some of the other things that the church leadership were doing and I loved seeing that, and I loved starting getting engaged into it at an early age. It was the church treasurer, and they were like, do you know how to write properly? Do you know how to do this? And I was like, yes, I love it, I love it. You see, Hannia in that context very much engaged. So that started middle school age. And then high school, it continued. But then in high school, that's where other clubs were available. That was like FBLA, Future Business Leaders of America. There was obviously Beta Club. I was briefly in HOSA, Health Occupational Students, something like that. It was very brief. But then the other one that really stood out for me, it was called AIM Club, Action, Inspiration, Motivation. And so, at that time, there were, everybody, I guess, unofficially called it the Hispanic club, because it was mostly Hispanics and mostly immigrant students. The first year I was there, I was excited. I was seeing everybody. Everybody engaged and that looked like me, because in the other clubs, I was the only Hispanic. And because I joined that group, there were other Hispanic kids that were coming in. But in this one it was all of us Hispanics. And so, I went in there, I think it was year two that I went in there, or year three, I don't remember, but then I became president for that club. And then at the same time becoming president for FBLA and learning more about the leadership, learning more about the roles, how do meetings run, with FBLA, everything about business and things like that. And so, and that's where I met, his name was Donald Byrne, and then he comes into my life a couple years later. But after high school, I got pregnant at an early age. I was 17, so it was my last year of high school. And how would I say it? Thankfully, all my other friends that were part of, by that time it was called SLI, Scholars Latino Initiative with UNC, for the most part, they were also the same students that were with me in the ESL program, in elementary school AIG program. They were also in there, several of them DACAmented and things like that, which is another group that we were in in high school. Thankfully by high school, those who were in there and fulfilled certain requirements, although they were undocumented, where able to go to the university. And so that's where my pause kind of ended. At the high school level, thankfully, I was able to graduate, but by that time I became a mother. Unfortunately, not only within family but with other folks I would get a lot of comments like, okay, this is the end of your life. This is it. This is over for you. And I remember trying to, I was like, okay, maybe I can't go to university, maybe I can go to a local community college. And I applied, and I got rejected. I got a letter that said because I didn't have a social security number and I was like, pero porque no? So, I was like, okay, so what do I do now, like--. And so at that time me ajunté con el padre de mi hijo. So, I got together with my son's dad. We were together for a brief couple of years. There were a couple of years of I would say just pause. A little bit of darkness throughout those years, but then I got married. Couple years, I got married in 2012, two years after I graduated. I met my now husband. And I'm not gonna say it was a fairytale love story because there were a couple of hardships in the beginning as well. But within, let's say year one, year two of our marriage, that's where they passed the deferred action. So at that point, I was able to go back to school. If I wanted to I could go to work. I could pursue so many other things, and so, by that year was I had just had my daughter, my second child. And so not only the need for a household, taking care of our household expenses, but then also an opportunity for me to get out of the house. I started going back to work. I loved to work. I was trying to learn not only the basics, but other things and it was easy for me to keep on picking up. It was a little bit hard in the beginning because a lot of folks se desesperaban like employers that they would get a little bit frustrated because I was also learning the gap.
DV: And this was around 2014?
HB: 2014, ’13 yeah. And there were a good several jobs that dismissed me in the beginning. I was like, man, but I want to, I want to learn, I'm trying to learn this, things like that. A lot of: you're not compatible, or we're cutting back positions and roles, and we’re like, okay. At that time, that's when I decided to go back to school, and I went to CCCC, Central Carolina Community College. That would have been around, that would have been around 2016, I believe, where I went to get my nursing aid certificate. After that I started, I moved back to Siler City and I was working at night at a nursing home, and coincidentally, I--. how would I describe it to you? So, it's a dead-end street where I used to live. On the sides of that street there were the apartments and that the end of the street was a nursing home. So, I lived in those apartments and the nursing home was there. So, at night I was working there. And during the day, obviously, my kids were at school one of them, the other one was still small, but family was helping me with her. And I would notice that in that apartment complex, the maintenance man was almost unofficially in charge. And so, but there were some tenant issues that were going on. And one day the owner actually was there. No, his name was Tom Smith. The day that I met Tom Smith was when we were urgently trying to find a place. We, being my younger sister and I, and we were trying to find a place on our own because we couldn't be at my mom's house. It was too crowded. And we were desperately trying to apply. And we were calling. And we're like, we're really interested. We really want to get in there. And then, I don't know why, but the owner went to the unit that we were at. He's like, I wanted to see what was this commotion about two sisters so urgently trying to get an apartment. Like what's the big deal? But he just, I guess he didn't realize that it was a big step for us. It was not a luxury apartment. The homes are--. They’re still there, those apartments are still there, but they're one of the oldest apartment complexes in Siler City. And so, he went there, and because of my observation of how the process went when you move into an apartment, when he went in there, and I guess he just, I don't know what he expected out of two Hispanic young ladies coming into an apartment on their own. And I was like, okay, I'm ready for the movement inspection, and I need you to fix this, this, this, and that. And hey, I was pointing things out in the apartment. And he's like, how do you know that? And I'm like, oh, we did this whenever I moved in somewhere else and he's like, oh okay. He's like where are you working at now? I told him I was working over there. And I remember just blurting out like well whenever you need help just reach out to me, and he did literally within that week. He's like, what about I give you a contract out. And that's when I started into the housing.
DV: Okay.
HB: And I was Liaison Services. And so, I essentially--.
DV: You clearly impressed him. [Laughter].
HB: Something happened, but I was very loud and there was another person that had been there with the team that did not like me. And every chance she got she let him know, let the owner know, and copy him in there like she's not listening, she's not learning, and I'm wasting my time with her. And because she was tasked with training me with the technical things. And there were some things that I still, it hadn't clicked yet, but I was trying. I was like, oh my gosh, I'm sure. And then my husband-- like I would read her emails and I would be crying. And my husband would be like, why don't you just quit? I'm like, no, it's because I'm not going to learn. This is free training on housing and things like that. He's like, oh my gosh. So, I was climbing my way through that, but I was trying to learn everything that had to do with housing, not only with the process, with people moving in, the inspections, working with con--. Vendors, things like that, so just taking advantage of that. I eventually transitioned from working in the nursing home to housing. I had to go because I was in a dementia unit and a lot of my patients there were passing away, and it was just a very hard thing for me.
DV: Oh, yeah.
HB: So as much as I loved it, I was like, I can't, but I then transitioned into housing. And that's where I was learning more about it and being very vocal, and I would talk to the owner and be like hey, you know, we started learning about how to do the inspections and then prioritizing. And I would be working with him, and I would be like, hey, Tom, you need to fix this. You need to fix that. And then because a lot of the people that live there, they're like, why do you care? I'm like, because this is housing, like, you can't have a hole in your roof. You can’t have your door falling apart and things like that. And I understood the business part of it, because looking at the numbers, there was no money coming in because the homes were averaging between $300 to $500 a month. $500 for a three bedroom but, you know, not a lot of repairs have been done for several years. So, I started pushing to do a couple of repairs in the time that we were in there. A couple of--. About a year or so later, that's when I reached out to Cardinal Chase, which was my second place in housing. I don't recall what was the incident, but I remember going to the office and talking to the manager there. I was talking to her because I was looking for a different apartment for somebody. And I explained to her, I'm actually with Brookwood Farms--. Brookwood Apartments, and this so-and-so needs this. And she's like, how do you know about housing? I'm like, oh, this is what I'm doing here. And then she's like, okay, well, I'm leaving. So, do you want this job? [Laughter]. So, I was like, are you serious? And she's like, yeah. She told me where to submit my résumé. And I was like, okay, this is crazy. I’m going to do it, so I did it. And then by Monday of the next week, they were like, interview. I was on the job within like two, three weeks.
DV: Wow.
HB: And it continued my role with management, learning more about that, a lot of training in that program. But throughout these roles, I was also very intentional about advocating for the people we were serving. And it's something that I've carried desde pequeña. And then I felt that responsibility and my role in them and really letting the owners know, hey, it's much more than your money, much more than the rents. And within that second role, since it was low income housing, I would try to figure out ways with the tenants there about moving in. During their stay, trying to come up with payment plans, because there were so many people that were like I don't have a full amount of money. I'm like, it's okay let's breathe and I would joke around with them I'm like I'm not going kick you out unless you kick yourself out. And they're like oh my gosh, thank you. I'm like no, really, don't thank me. This is the least that I can do because this is your home. This is not just something that I can just up and say, screw y'all, go ahead and leave. So, it was around that time I was with Cardinal Chase. In comes Don Byrne. Around that time frame, Donald Byrne who was one of the teachers from Jordan Matthews at AIM Club, that was almost like a supervisor during their club meetings, that he reached out. And he's like, hey, you know, can I ask you to join me on a meeting one day with the Hispanic Liaison? And I was like, okay, I've heard of the Liaison because my mom always uses their services. And sure, let me go to a meeting. He's like, it’s a board meeting. And they're looking for directors. And he had reached out to another former classmate as well. And within meeting one, they were like, do you, would you want to be crazy enough to join us? And I'm like, of course, thank you. So, I joined the Board of Directors. At that time, it would have been 2016, with the Hispanic Liaison. And I think by the next year, that's when I became Board Chair with the Liaison.
DV: Did you continue your other job in housing during this time?
HB: Yeah, it was during that time, because I didn't join the Liaison officially as a staff member until 2021. So, during that time, 2017, the Liaison--. 2015, 2016, there was a brief year where the Liaison closed. And so, I came in when they reopened. And so, the ’17, the organization was kicking back up and I would hear the reports from Ilana, from Janet, about all the work that they were doing, and I was like, just very impressed. Not only about the work they were doing but their passion for it, with work in our community, the issues that they were addressing. And so coincidentally around that same time, that's where Hispanic leaders from Sanford reached out to us in Siler City about opening up, well discussing opening up a different organization in this area, or a satellite office for the Hispanic Liaison because there's no organization.
DV: Here in Sanford?
HB: In Sanford, yeah. There was in 2000--. I don't know what, in the early 2000s, there was a Hispanic Task Force here in Lee County, but it dissolved within a few years. So, after that, there was nothing in this area. And a lot of Lee County residents were going to Siler City to get, ask for help.
DV: Like what kind of help? What does the Liaison do, or what do you do with the Liaison?
HB: So, there's different aspects of the kind of work that we do because we work with our community, but we also work with local nonprofits, government agencies, law enforcement agencies. So, with our community, we like to say we're the Google of our community. Todo. We do literally everything. Let's say for a community member comes in and asks for assistance. Generally, they might come for, where can I find assistance for X, Y, Z? And so, if we are aware of a resource, we let them know and we get them connected to the resources, or if the resources are not available, we become that resource. But it can be anywhere between housing issues, education, it can be anywhere between mental health, health as well. We also talk about documents, helping community members obtain important documents for themselves, for their children, for their family. That could be either US documents or foreign documents. We do a lot of interpretation. If, let's say, a community member comes to us and says, hey, look, I've tried to reach out to this agency. Pero no me entienden. Like, they don't understand what I'm trying to say. And so, we hear their story and then we essentially translate it to something that XYZ system can understand.
DV: I see.
HB: And so, we help a lot with financial aid assistance with the hospitals. In the peak of the pandemic, we did a lot of emergency assistance for rentals, utilities, hospital assistance as well. We had a solid-- currently have also a solidarity fund that were, that's for mixed status families or no status families where the primary income earner was impacted, the family was impacted financially and so many community members were not, you know, not eligible or there was a disruption with them getting some financial assistance during the pandemic time period. And so, it was a way to help our community as well, but those are just some minor examples. We also have a free immigration clinic, so a community member can reach out to us. We try to get them connected with a free initial consultation with an immigration attorney. We also get them connected if, depending on their case, try to give them information, for example, like the Battered Immigrant Project with NC Legal Aid, for several asylum seekers, getting them information about the immigrant refugee project. So many different projects that our community members don't know are available. But then the biggest thing is education and helping our community members go and understand the process. US systems that they might not understand or they might need a little bit more guidance because the ultimate goal is for our community members to feel empowered and that they have a space with a Hispanic Liaison that they can feel at home, but then they also could feel heard and that we're advocating for them and regardless of the field, so we don't limit ourselves to just one field.
DV: What an amazing resource for the community to have.
HB: Yes, and we work, that's with the community, and then also we work, like I said, with other non-profits, government agencies, businesses as well, so they can also--. How do I say? We give them guidance and suggestions, recommendations as to, hey, this is how you can better serve our community, or you need to consider this other perspective to try to break down barriers, miscommunication, misinformation. A lot of misconceptions of, oh, that's a cultural thing, actually, it's not. For example, oh, it's a cultural thing that Hispanics live all together in one house. And I'm like, actually, no. There's so many other factors that's out of a necessity that they are having to be together. And breaking down those kinds of examples. Or why is it that the child is interpreting? No, we don't. And because--. We faced that with my mother. I can't talk to you. You're a little kid. And there might not have been interpretation services available for my mom. Or even now, within systems that, let's say, she's going to a medical appointment or she's going to get some services, the interpreter might be there, and the provider is there or whoever is providing the service but it's the interpreter looking at my mom and the provider not once do they look at my mom at any point. And I was like, okay, so--.
DV: Are they here for me?
HB: Yeah, and not only that but then my mom starts, for example, like she starts talking to an interpreter and the interpreter was like, oh, I don't know. I don't know. Or actually, ask the provider. And then they're just kind of like, mm, no sé si le pregunto.
DV: There’s tension.
HB: Yeah, and sometimes, even at those points of contact, systems are improving. Not saying anything, but there's certain points in the process that need to be addressed and need to be improved. And so, we bring in those recommendations with agencies and say, hey, this can work better. Ultimately with a goal of positively impacting our community and that they feel empowered and comfortable at the point of service. Many times, I get agency leaders that say, well it's not that we're not trying, I'm like, no sweetie, it's not about that. It's also the impression that somebody gets when they're interacting with either staff or leadership. You may feel the same way if you go somewhere else and people are disconnected with you when you're getting a service. Thankfully you are able to speak the language and you can say, hey, what's up with that? You know, hey, what's going on with this? But many of times it's not even the language barriers. It's a lot about the relationships, the trust that's within providers. I always talk about the example of my mother and my children. Although they're in a dual language program, they understand Spanish and they're trying their best to speak Spanish, but there are times that they, each of them are speaking their own language, but they still understand each other because they've got that connection, they have that relationship. And my mom knows my child's intention, my child knows my mom's intention as to what we're trying to get to. And it's all about the relationship, versus it's, oh, here you go, and that's it.
DV: Can you pick out certain things in your background that you think helped to prepare you, that were part of your journey and led you to this pathway to leadership that you are in now? You mentioned for instance, translating for your mother and that is still something you do today in this role, you translate for other people, navigate systems, things like that.
HB: One of the biggest things--. And I constantly have to remind myself, because if you look at other places they think, oh, leadership is with the degree, or if you have something behind your name, or you--. I would say the non-conventional ways that leadership is portrayed. But leadership, from what I have seen, is you are getting yourself down and dirty with your community. You're there on the ground. And what you're doing is you're eventually translating to people that don't know what's going on and letting them know this is what’s happening, and this is what needs to go next. And this is what needs to go next. And sometimes I mention within people, if I, when I say deputy director, in my head I was like, maybe that's just for other people to understand where I am. But eventually, I'm just another person in the community. I'm just another--. I'm just like you and I. Which is funny, because my mom would always tell me, eres una directora. You've got to look like one. You got to act like one. I'm like, wait, what? What do you mean, ma? And she's like, no, you got to look like a directora. Almost like if I have to be in a suit and in a tie or I don't know, heels or like a businessperson that we would see at FBLA, you know, the Future Business Leaders of America. That's the image that they portray. A leader is this and you know, and you know that they’re here.
DV: They look the part traditionally.
HB: Yes. And that their presence can be felt every time they're in the room and like they're the highlight of everything and I'm like, I don't like that. And I do remember, I'm like, okay, I'm learning, that's what I need to be. And it's funny because sometimes people come around like, okay, who's the one in charge? [Laughter]. And I'm like, actually, that's me. But it's understanding that it's a role, a responsibility. It's not about the title, it just says that the title means you have more responsibilities. The responsibilities for the people that you're with, that you're working with, that you're trying to make an impact, to change. That's where I would have truly embraced it. Coming back within leadership, like I said. After, when was it, 2013, 2015, it's been the non-conventional leaders. I would always have some classmates say, within that group that graduated, there was one classmate that said, you're smart, but you don't--. Ah, what was it? He's like, you're a nerd, but you don't act like a nerd. He meant in the most positive way, he's like, you're so smart, but you don't act like a traditional person. And he was just like, I don't get it. I just don't get it. But like I said, just coming back, obviously it took several years for me to embrace that. That it's not what is portrayed out there. It's about, como dicen, okay you face the challenges, okay there's moments of, dang, like did I do it right? Am I doing this right? Dang, you question yourself like, maybe someone better could be here or, man, it's stressing me out with working with these people because, you know, I consider that I don't come at an aggressive stance when I'm working with new people, but then there's some people that are just, wow. You question yourself like, why are you here, respectfully? Like you're in this role that you have a big responsibility on making an impact on people and you close yourselves to it. And we were joking around with a colleague and my husband, actually yesterday. You know what, I realized I've got a list of people that don't like me. And he's like yeah, I realized that too. And he's like but I guess we just need to know that we're not going to be liked by everybody and that's okay. And it's about picking ourselves back up and realize okay, what haven't I figured out yet? Or what is it that I need to know more? Because obviously we're humans. And self-doubt comes and you know, hesitancy comes. But it's like, okay, these are legitimate questions, regardless of whether people look at you or talk down on you. I mentioned when they--. Just your presence around them, they make you feel like why is this idiot here? Because you see that, and growing up I would always, you know, everybody's working together, and it's been a learning curve. Learning curve that some people just don't want to work with you and it's okay. And it's okay and you know, you got to step back and look at the big picture of what you're trying to do.
DV: You face the challenge.
HB: Yeah and just like with everything there's a huge learning curve, and it's about having patience with yourself and it's harder than just, how would I say it, it's hard but at the same time it's important, it's valuable. Because you go through that moment and then you're looking at all the different points and then--. I always call it the dots are connecting in my brain. And understanding, okay this is different routes I need to take, these are different responses I need to do to whatever these challenges or opportunities are, and then you keep on going. And then you can do whatever you got to do. Si vas a limpiar, limpia. If you got to go and do something else, self-care, you do it, and then you get back up. You get back up and keep on trying. It's about not giving up in that part. I would say if there's, whoever's listening, if you are in that role, it's a matter of showing grace and kindness to other people because we're all just really trying, trying to make a difference, trying to make a change. Not only for ourselves, I always--. Obviously now I'm a mother, and I always think about the change for my children, the generations to come, my neighbors, my community. It's so cliche, I love it. How they say, I cannot change the world, but I can change my world. And my world is my family, my friends, my community.
DV: Well, speaking of your community, you were in all of these clubs in high school, then you were working in housing, then you became Deputy Director here at El Vínculo, the Hispanic Liaison. But more recently you were also Chair of ICAC, the Immigrant Community Advisory Council in Siler City. How did that come about?
HB: So, with ICAC, the Hispanic liaison had been involved with the Building Integrated Communities project with UNC in collaboration with Town of Siler City. That was around 2017 when it started. Out of that, there was an action plan, essentially telling the town of Siler City, here are some recommendations of how you can integrate immigrant communities into Siler City. Within the action plan, there's some Siler City action items, and then there's some other outside agencies that are involved in it, so it's just like a collective work. So, obviously the pandemic hit and there was a couple of pauses for one or two years and then in 2021, last year, Building Integrated Communities and El Vínculo Hispano approached the town of Siler City with a resolution to build an advisory board or committee to the town of Siler City to help guide them through this action plan, to give them recommendations with the ultimate goal of really pushing the action items among other responsibilities. So, when they made out the call for members of that committee, I submitted my letter of interest. To be part of this committee, you have to be an immigrant yourself, a child of an immigrant, a grandchild of an immigrant, having a close connection to Siler City. Either you live, or you work there or have a very specific interest with Siler City. That was pretty much the biggest responsibility, the biggest requirements really, and of course submitting the letter of interest for it. And so, I applied, and I became part of the inaugural group. There were seven of us and within our first meeting, that's where the group elected me to be their board chair. And so, within this first year, it's been a lot about learning. Learning about our role and truly understanding it on what does it mean to be in an advisory capacity? What are the regulations? But then also understanding and asking, well, why are those regulations in place? And so that we can fulfill our role to the best of our abilities. Within that group, there are wonderful professionals. There's an immigration attorney, there is a local law office manager. There is someone that is in marketing, someone that's a business owner veteran, someone that's in the school system. So, these are all professionals within our community involved in this group with different expertise and different insights to share a portion of our immigrant perspective in our community. And that's where we are today. Like I said, I'm chair over that advisory committee.
DV: Great. In your pathway to these leadership positions, do you have any challenges that you can pick out that you would want to share? Or maybe other lessons that you've learned along the way that you would want to share?
HB: Okay, well definitely there's going to be a lot of barriers that may come into play. It could be anywhere between access to education or maybe, especially if you never had that role model, which is very hard, or a mentor. But don't be afraid and ask. That was one of the things that they would always say: es que la Hannia habla mucho, she talks so much. And she will go and talk to anybody and it's not that I'm--. I might not seem like it, but I'm actually pretty shy. [Laughter]. I still like, okay, let me ask this, I need to understand this, because um so you'll find barriers either because you might not have the tools but that doesn't mean that you can't have the tools. Or you might know the resources yet. And so you'll find that. And what does that mean? That means approach people in leadership. And ask those questions. And keep on asking them until you understand. If they get annoyed, let them get annoyed. But no, you're going to keep on asking the questions, because it's important that you understand it because ultimately what's gonna happen is you will also be the advocate for the next person that comes in and share that, pass that information along, that knowledge along. And just like with anything, there's always that learning curve with anything new that you start. They say anything new with a business, anything new in education. I think that a pattern, a trend, that I've seen within the first three years of you doing anything, it's a lot about learning. Have grace with yourself while you're learning. If you can push through that, year one is a lot about, okay, here I am, I'm on the ground, and you're running. [Laughter]. Year two is your evaluation year. Okay, what happened year one? Because year one, you're going in there, you're going passionately. And year two, you're evaluating what's the processes? How did it work? How did it flow? What were the barriers that you found? What were some of the trends that you noticed? What were some of the activities that you saw for yourself, with your community, while you were doing whatever work that you were doing, and then just take a moment to step back and be like, okay, now what's going to be my response to it? What can I do next? And some of those you might not have an answer to, and that's totally fine. And then you keep on. Right now, and I can say that because we're going on to year two with the Immigrant Advisory Committee, going onto year two with our Lee County office, year two with my little one. He's that child that we fooled ourselves into thinking oh he's going be the same as the other two and we've got this and we're experienced parents and we're learning. But you keep on, you keep on and caring for yourself, you know yourself. Surround yourself with people that do care about you and people that will encourage you and people that will, maybe they might not have that answer for you, but that they're your safe space. You know to keep on keeping on.
DV: Speaking of keeping on, what do you envision for the roles that you're in right now in the future? Things you might want to accomplish, things you'd like to see your community have access to or accomplish. What do you see the future looking like, or what would you hope for the future?
HB: Well, within my role with the organization, still a lot of learning. Learning anything from A to Z. I love what I do. Growing up that was my goal. I always envisioned myself wanting to lead an organization, lead an organization, manage an organization that had the social aspect, and I am in this role. And I never thought that I would be, especially in the dark three years of my life. I was like, I am never going to accomplish that. Keep on learning that, being the best that I can for this role in this organization that I am in. With the community, giving the very best of my abilities to my community. I also see my community rising and being empowered by all the work that we do, being inspired, inspiring each other, and showcasing all the beautiful things that we have, especially in our culture and anything to do with the food, definitely, the music, the arts, the professionals that we have, the brilliant minds that might not be in traditional roles but darn, they are good at what they do. Highlighting that but then also collaborating with other communities. There is so much beauty, even when people might not think it. My son does not think it, my twelve-year-old. He is like, man this small town in boring, but there are so many beautiful members in our community. Being together, working together. There’s always going to be the hustle but there is also going to be life and enjoying. Unfortunately, vulnerable communities, communities of color--. In what we say, okay Hannia we have got to be realistic, and yeah, we are being realistic because there are different barriers that one would say would prevent our community to live that. That is when we say, okay we are going to strive for life and joy and everything that we deserve, but we are also going to hustle and raise our voices and say this is not correct. We are going to be working together collectively to make change, to make movement, make noise regardless of whoever gets frustrated, and sometimes we have to move quietly and that is totally fine. Seeing that grow in our community, and then for myself at the end of it all, I think I told you but, quiero un ranchito, I want a little casita. [Laughter]. Just like out in the country, with at most two acres, pues tan poco quiero exagerar. I just want a place that is not too big. Just enough for myself and for at least two other guests when they need to go there. My kids swear up and down that as soon as they get old, they are going to get their own places. I want that for them, but I know, especially because I would see it growing up my mother was an unofficial matriarch of our family in Siler City so our aunts and uncles would go there, pay their respects. Then they would leave and go do their things. More of like, hey big sister I am here I love you. Alright you are good? Yeah, and then you are done. Just a place that our family can go. I envision a patio that has enough gathering spaces for everybody to be out there, having their own hamaca, having a place for the kids to go and play. I want to see all the young and the old together. I want the younger ones to hear the stories of the old folks because they have some crazy stories let me tell you. [Laughter]. Learning from their experience and just a space. A space where they can be family. I will give a hand into gardening maybe. Not really, maybe just the basic plant because I don’t want to kill the plants. I’ve thought about a couple animalitos de granja, and a lot of plants, I like plants. You will just find me there.
DV: Okay, Hannia. Hannia, thank you very much for sharing your story with me.
HB: Thank you, Daniel.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Transcriber: Sofia Godoy and Daniel Velásquez
Interview Date: 2022 November 18
Date of Transcription: 2023 July 17 / Revisions: 2023 October 9
Es: Transcripción
Daniel Velásquez: Hannia Benítez is Deputy Director at El Vínculo Hispano, the Hispanic Liaison, and Chair of ICAC, the Immigrant Community Advisory Council at Siler City. I'm Daniel Velásquez. I am interviewing you today for your oral history. Thank you for being with me today. It is November 18, 2022.
Hannia Benítez: Thank you for having me, Daniel.
DV: Hannia, let's get started by talking about your early life, your background, and set the context for us.
HB: Okay, so my name is Hannia Benítez. I was born in Guatemala, but I came to the United States at an early age. I grew up in Chatham County, North Carolina. I am the oldest daughter de mi mami and the oldest granddaughter out of more than twenty grandchildren. I identify as Hispanic Latina. I am currently deputy director for the Hispanic Liaison.
DV: Awesome. Great.
HB: And I am a mother of three beautiful children. I have a twelve-year-old, a ten-year-old, and a two-year-old. Married for ten years. And we also have a little fur baby, Milo. [Laughter].
DV: Great, so you were born in Guatemala. How long have you lived in United States then?
HB: It’s been over 25 years. I was born in ’92. I came to the United States when I was about four or five years old, but our first thought was Los Angeles, where my grandmother was living, and she currently lives there. And then a few years, within one or two years, then we moved here to North Carolina to join the rest of mis tíos, my mother’s youngest brothers and sisters that actually lived in Siler City, so that is where I grew up in.
DV: Maybe just tell me a little bit more about growing up here in North Carolina, in Siler City.
HB: Well, how do I describe it? Well, I guess when we--. I guess just from the beginning, so just to give you context my mother was a single mother with two daughters. My other sister, that is two years younger than I. She used to be a, what would you call it, like a pre-school teacher in Guatemala, so coming to the area she would, when we first got here, she would try to teach us, well mostly me, the basics of el abecedario, the alphabet, the numbers. Everything, she would do it in Spanish because she tells me, te lo voy a enseñar en español and allá en la escuela lo aprendes en inglés, so I’m going to teach it to you in Spanish, and you need to learn it in English in school. And I did just that. Whenever she came here, she worked for--. She started working several odd jobs, but then stayed at the chicken plant at that time. She worked there for several years. The biggest priorities, the biggest important things that she would say, edúquense, you know, educate yourself, learn a lot. And so, our biggest focus was on that, just learning as much as we could, learning the language, learning so many different topics. In school, being the oldest, I often found myself being like the interpreter or the translator for my mom, and then it translated with other family members. And because they would have this expression, like, para eso vas a la escuela. That's why you're going to school. So, you need to know what it is. And sometimes it would start with school messages that were sent home, and they were only in English. And she's like, ¿Qué dice? What did that say? And so, I would tell her mom, they're talking about this, this, this, this and that and trying to get her to understand what they were trying to say and what they wanted her to do. And then that then translated to the other aspects of our lives where I started having to understand how other systems work to be able to explain it to my mom, but at the same time there's still always that passion in school I loved. I'm not going to say reading, no I love reading, it was writing that I just struggled with it because there were so many thoughts in my mind, I was like I don’t know how to put it bien. Yeah, I always loved it. We were in the traditional ESL program. When I say traditional, it would be they pull all of us that are native Spanish speakers. They pull us out of the class. They teach us some English, and they put us back in. Unfortunately, I saw many other students that that was not helpful for. But, you know, I can say I was a little bit more fortunate that although my mom didn't speak English, but she had the basic foundations in Spanish that she just kept on trying at home. And then I also tried to learn everything. I was like, okay, I got to learn about, you know. So, I was in the ESL program for several years. Then I graduated out of it, I think, maybe second or third grade. And it transitioned into the AIG program, the Academic and Intellectually Gifted. And there was a group of other students that we grew up with that were also part of the ESL program that were in that as well. So, it was just a lot of that focus on education and trying to learn. And so, that was just elementary school. Like I said, being the oldest, I was always a para arriba para abajo with a single mom. The father figures that stepped in were obviously mis tíos, and so, I would love to be with them outside. You would not see Hannia in the traditional role of being in the kitchen. My mom would always be like, Hannia, come and learn how to cook. And I would look from a distance, and I'm like, okay, I know the basics. I know how to do eggs. And then I would, I'm like, ma, I have homework. Tengo mucha tarea. And so, I would go back into the room, go do my homework. And when I finished that, then I would be outside. You would see Hannia, there was a storage next to the trailer, and you would see Hannia on top of the roof and jumping from the roof and playing with my male cousins and yeah, just doing the non-traditional female roles. And it was a little bit different with my younger sister because she loved to cook. She loved learning all the traditional dishes that was going on in the kitchen. So yeah, that's what you would see. Hannia would be out there throwing rocks. We would just be using our imagination outside and just wandering around with my cousins. And then there was the school, so my focus was school, family, school, family. It continued all through middle school as well, and then high school the same way, very much inclined to education. Middle school is when I started learning a little bit more about clubs, like Beta Club, and obviously in part because of the academics. But in high school is when we started seeing more different types of clubs because middle school it was the academics, but then other areas that I started desarrollando my leadership was in the communities of faith, when I was 12. Which was something we didn't grow up with. My mom never talked about religion, none of that. Like, we never knew about churches. It was until about--. I was 11 or 12, that one of my uncles got married, and his wife was going to church. It was funny, because they would always take me, I was their mini chaperone when they were dating. So everywhere they were going, they would take me. And so, one of the places that they started taking me was at a Community of Faith in Asheboro, about 30 minutes from Siler City. And so, I remember the first day I went to that congregation, I saw youth about my age that were playing music. At that time, I was also in band in school, playing the trumpet, the quietest musical instrument around.
DV: Sure. [Laughter].
HB: And I remember seeing a kid about my age. I was 11, and he was 13. And he was up there. And he was playing the instrument. It sounded so cool. Other kids my age was playing piano. I was like, oh my gosh. I want a space. I want to be here and see other things. And so, within that space, I quickly asked the leaders they call them I think ushers in English but at the church they would call them diáconos or servidores and I was like I want to help. Put me wherever, and they were like okay we'll do that. And Hannia was up there sweeping in church, and every service they would have Hannia in childcare in the back and in sala-cuna or the nursery. And so, I would be out there and I would love engaging and they would talk about, okay you know Sunday school, teach this to the children, learn about this. So I was doing that but then also learning some of the other things that the church leadership were doing and I loved seeing that, and I loved starting getting engaged into it at an early age. It was the church treasurer, and they were like, do you know how to write properly? Do you know how to do this? And I was like, yes, I love it, I love it. You see, Hannia in that context very much engaged. So that started middle school age. And then high school, it continued. But then in high school, that's where other clubs were available. That was like FBLA, Future Business Leaders of America. There was obviously Beta Club. I was briefly in HOSA, Health Occupational Students, something like that. It was very brief. But then the other one that really stood out for me, it was called AIM Club, Action, Inspiration, Motivation. And so, at that time, there were, everybody, I guess, unofficially called it the Hispanic club, because it was mostly Hispanics and mostly immigrant students. The first year I was there, I was excited. I was seeing everybody. Everybody engaged and that looked like me, because in the other clubs, I was the only Hispanic. And because I joined that group, there were other Hispanic kids that were coming in. But in this one it was all of us Hispanics. And so, I went in there, I think it was year two that I went in there, or year three, I don't remember, but then I became president for that club. And then at the same time becoming president for FBLA and learning more about the leadership, learning more about the roles, how do meetings run, with FBLA, everything about business and things like that. And so, and that's where I met, his name was Donald Byrne, and then he comes into my life a couple years later. But after high school, I got pregnant at an early age. I was 17, so it was my last year of high school. And how would I say it? Thankfully, all my other friends that were part of, by that time it was called SLI, Scholars Latino Initiative with UNC, for the most part, they were also the same students that were with me in the ESL program, in elementary school AIG program. They were also in there, several of them DACAmented and things like that, which is another group that we were in in high school. Thankfully by high school, those who were in there and fulfilled certain requirements, although they were undocumented, where able to go to the university. And so that's where my pause kind of ended. At the high school level, thankfully, I was able to graduate, but by that time I became a mother. Unfortunately, not only within family but with other folks I would get a lot of comments like, okay, this is the end of your life. This is it. This is over for you. And I remember trying to, I was like, okay, maybe I can't go to university, maybe I can go to a local community college. And I applied, and I got rejected. I got a letter that said because I didn't have a social security number and I was like, pero porque no? So, I was like, okay, so what do I do now, like--. And so at that time me ajunté con el padre de mi hijo. So, I got together with my son's dad. We were together for a brief couple of years. There were a couple of years of I would say just pause. A little bit of darkness throughout those years, but then I got married. Couple years, I got married in 2012, two years after I graduated. I met my now husband. And I'm not gonna say it was a fairytale love story because there were a couple of hardships in the beginning as well. But within, let's say year one, year two of our marriage, that's where they passed the deferred action. So at that point, I was able to go back to school. If I wanted to I could go to work. I could pursue so many other things, and so, by that year was I had just had my daughter, my second child. And so not only the need for a household, taking care of our household expenses, but then also an opportunity for me to get out of the house. I started going back to work. I loved to work. I was trying to learn not only the basics, but other things and it was easy for me to keep on picking up. It was a little bit hard in the beginning because a lot of folks se desesperaban like employers that they would get a little bit frustrated because I was also learning the gap.
DV: And this was around 2014?
HB: 2014, ’13 yeah. And there were a good several jobs that dismissed me in the beginning. I was like, man, but I want to, I want to learn, I'm trying to learn this, things like that. A lot of: you're not compatible, or we're cutting back positions and roles, and we’re like, okay. At that time, that's when I decided to go back to school, and I went to CCCC, Central Carolina Community College. That would have been around, that would have been around 2016, I believe, where I went to get my nursing aid certificate. After that I started, I moved back to Siler City and I was working at night at a nursing home, and coincidentally, I--. how would I describe it to you? So, it's a dead-end street where I used to live. On the sides of that street there were the apartments and that the end of the street was a nursing home. So, I lived in those apartments and the nursing home was there. So, at night I was working there. And during the day, obviously, my kids were at school one of them, the other one was still small, but family was helping me with her. And I would notice that in that apartment complex, the maintenance man was almost unofficially in charge. And so, but there were some tenant issues that were going on. And one day the owner actually was there. No, his name was Tom Smith. The day that I met Tom Smith was when we were urgently trying to find a place. We, being my younger sister and I, and we were trying to find a place on our own because we couldn't be at my mom's house. It was too crowded. And we were desperately trying to apply. And we were calling. And we're like, we're really interested. We really want to get in there. And then, I don't know why, but the owner went to the unit that we were at. He's like, I wanted to see what was this commotion about two sisters so urgently trying to get an apartment. Like what's the big deal? But he just, I guess he didn't realize that it was a big step for us. It was not a luxury apartment. The homes are--. They’re still there, those apartments are still there, but they're one of the oldest apartment complexes in Siler City. And so, he went there, and because of my observation of how the process went when you move into an apartment, when he went in there, and I guess he just, I don't know what he expected out of two Hispanic young ladies coming into an apartment on their own. And I was like, okay, I'm ready for the movement inspection, and I need you to fix this, this, this, and that. And hey, I was pointing things out in the apartment. And he's like, how do you know that? And I'm like, oh, we did this whenever I moved in somewhere else and he's like, oh okay. He's like where are you working at now? I told him I was working over there. And I remember just blurting out like well whenever you need help just reach out to me, and he did literally within that week. He's like, what about I give you a contract out. And that's when I started into the housing.
DV: Okay.
HB: And I was Liaison Services. And so, I essentially--.
DV: You clearly impressed him. [Laughter].
HB: Something happened, but I was very loud and there was another person that had been there with the team that did not like me. And every chance she got she let him know, let the owner know, and copy him in there like she's not listening, she's not learning, and I'm wasting my time with her. And because she was tasked with training me with the technical things. And there were some things that I still, it hadn't clicked yet, but I was trying. I was like, oh my gosh, I'm sure. And then my husband-- like I would read her emails and I would be crying. And my husband would be like, why don't you just quit? I'm like, no, it's because I'm not going to learn. This is free training on housing and things like that. He's like, oh my gosh. So, I was climbing my way through that, but I was trying to learn everything that had to do with housing, not only with the process, with people moving in, the inspections, working with con--. Vendors, things like that, so just taking advantage of that. I eventually transitioned from working in the nursing home to housing. I had to go because I was in a dementia unit and a lot of my patients there were passing away, and it was just a very hard thing for me.
DV: Oh, yeah.
HB: So as much as I loved it, I was like, I can't, but I then transitioned into housing. And that's where I was learning more about it and being very vocal, and I would talk to the owner and be like hey, you know, we started learning about how to do the inspections and then prioritizing. And I would be working with him, and I would be like, hey, Tom, you need to fix this. You need to fix that. And then because a lot of the people that live there, they're like, why do you care? I'm like, because this is housing, like, you can't have a hole in your roof. You can’t have your door falling apart and things like that. And I understood the business part of it, because looking at the numbers, there was no money coming in because the homes were averaging between $300 to $500 a month. $500 for a three bedroom but, you know, not a lot of repairs have been done for several years. So, I started pushing to do a couple of repairs in the time that we were in there. A couple of--. About a year or so later, that's when I reached out to Cardinal Chase, which was my second place in housing. I don't recall what was the incident, but I remember going to the office and talking to the manager there. I was talking to her because I was looking for a different apartment for somebody. And I explained to her, I'm actually with Brookwood Farms--. Brookwood Apartments, and this so-and-so needs this. And she's like, how do you know about housing? I'm like, oh, this is what I'm doing here. And then she's like, okay, well, I'm leaving. So, do you want this job? [Laughter]. So, I was like, are you serious? And she's like, yeah. She told me where to submit my résumé. And I was like, okay, this is crazy. I’m going to do it, so I did it. And then by Monday of the next week, they were like, interview. I was on the job within like two, three weeks.
DV: Wow.
HB: And it continued my role with management, learning more about that, a lot of training in that program. But throughout these roles, I was also very intentional about advocating for the people we were serving. And it's something that I've carried desde pequeña. And then I felt that responsibility and my role in them and really letting the owners know, hey, it's much more than your money, much more than the rents. And within that second role, since it was low income housing, I would try to figure out ways with the tenants there about moving in. During their stay, trying to come up with payment plans, because there were so many people that were like I don't have a full amount of money. I'm like, it's okay let's breathe and I would joke around with them I'm like I'm not going kick you out unless you kick yourself out. And they're like oh my gosh, thank you. I'm like no, really, don't thank me. This is the least that I can do because this is your home. This is not just something that I can just up and say, screw y'all, go ahead and leave. So, it was around that time I was with Cardinal Chase. In comes Don Byrne. Around that time frame, Donald Byrne who was one of the teachers from Jordan Matthews at AIM Club, that was almost like a supervisor during their club meetings, that he reached out. And he's like, hey, you know, can I ask you to join me on a meeting one day with the Hispanic Liaison? And I was like, okay, I've heard of the Liaison because my mom always uses their services. And sure, let me go to a meeting. He's like, it’s a board meeting. And they're looking for directors. And he had reached out to another former classmate as well. And within meeting one, they were like, do you, would you want to be crazy enough to join us? And I'm like, of course, thank you. So, I joined the Board of Directors. At that time, it would have been 2016, with the Hispanic Liaison. And I think by the next year, that's when I became Board Chair with the Liaison.
DV: Did you continue your other job in housing during this time?
HB: Yeah, it was during that time, because I didn't join the Liaison officially as a staff member until 2021. So, during that time, 2017, the Liaison--. 2015, 2016, there was a brief year where the Liaison closed. And so, I came in when they reopened. And so, the ’17, the organization was kicking back up and I would hear the reports from Ilana, from Janet, about all the work that they were doing, and I was like, just very impressed. Not only about the work they were doing but their passion for it, with work in our community, the issues that they were addressing. And so coincidentally around that same time, that's where Hispanic leaders from Sanford reached out to us in Siler City about opening up, well discussing opening up a different organization in this area, or a satellite office for the Hispanic Liaison because there's no organization.
DV: Here in Sanford?
HB: In Sanford, yeah. There was in 2000--. I don't know what, in the early 2000s, there was a Hispanic Task Force here in Lee County, but it dissolved within a few years. So, after that, there was nothing in this area. And a lot of Lee County residents were going to Siler City to get, ask for help.
DV: Like what kind of help? What does the Liaison do, or what do you do with the Liaison?
HB: So, there's different aspects of the kind of work that we do because we work with our community, but we also work with local nonprofits, government agencies, law enforcement agencies. So, with our community, we like to say we're the Google of our community. Todo. We do literally everything. Let's say for a community member comes in and asks for assistance. Generally, they might come for, where can I find assistance for X, Y, Z? And so, if we are aware of a resource, we let them know and we get them connected to the resources, or if the resources are not available, we become that resource. But it can be anywhere between housing issues, education, it can be anywhere between mental health, health as well. We also talk about documents, helping community members obtain important documents for themselves, for their children, for their family. That could be either US documents or foreign documents. We do a lot of interpretation. If, let's say, a community member comes to us and says, hey, look, I've tried to reach out to this agency. Pero no me entienden. Like, they don't understand what I'm trying to say. And so, we hear their story and then we essentially translate it to something that XYZ system can understand.
DV: I see.
HB: And so, we help a lot with financial aid assistance with the hospitals. In the peak of the pandemic, we did a lot of emergency assistance for rentals, utilities, hospital assistance as well. We had a solid-- currently have also a solidarity fund that were, that's for mixed status families or no status families where the primary income earner was impacted, the family was impacted financially and so many community members were not, you know, not eligible or there was a disruption with them getting some financial assistance during the pandemic time period. And so, it was a way to help our community as well, but those are just some minor examples. We also have a free immigration clinic, so a community member can reach out to us. We try to get them connected with a free initial consultation with an immigration attorney. We also get them connected if, depending on their case, try to give them information, for example, like the Battered Immigrant Project with NC Legal Aid, for several asylum seekers, getting them information about the immigrant refugee project. So many different projects that our community members don't know are available. But then the biggest thing is education and helping our community members go and understand the process. US systems that they might not understand or they might need a little bit more guidance because the ultimate goal is for our community members to feel empowered and that they have a space with a Hispanic Liaison that they can feel at home, but then they also could feel heard and that we're advocating for them and regardless of the field, so we don't limit ourselves to just one field.
DV: What an amazing resource for the community to have.
HB: Yes, and we work, that's with the community, and then also we work, like I said, with other non-profits, government agencies, businesses as well, so they can also--. How do I say? We give them guidance and suggestions, recommendations as to, hey, this is how you can better serve our community, or you need to consider this other perspective to try to break down barriers, miscommunication, misinformation. A lot of misconceptions of, oh, that's a cultural thing, actually, it's not. For example, oh, it's a cultural thing that Hispanics live all together in one house. And I'm like, actually, no. There's so many other factors that's out of a necessity that they are having to be together. And breaking down those kinds of examples. Or why is it that the child is interpreting? No, we don't. And because--. We faced that with my mother. I can't talk to you. You're a little kid. And there might not have been interpretation services available for my mom. Or even now, within systems that, let's say, she's going to a medical appointment or she's going to get some services, the interpreter might be there, and the provider is there or whoever is providing the service but it's the interpreter looking at my mom and the provider not once do they look at my mom at any point. And I was like, okay, so--.
DV: Are they here for me?
HB: Yeah, and not only that but then my mom starts, for example, like she starts talking to an interpreter and the interpreter was like, oh, I don't know. I don't know. Or actually, ask the provider. And then they're just kind of like, mm, no sé si le pregunto.
DV: There’s tension.
HB: Yeah, and sometimes, even at those points of contact, systems are improving. Not saying anything, but there's certain points in the process that need to be addressed and need to be improved. And so, we bring in those recommendations with agencies and say, hey, this can work better. Ultimately with a goal of positively impacting our community and that they feel empowered and comfortable at the point of service. Many times, I get agency leaders that say, well it's not that we're not trying, I'm like, no sweetie, it's not about that. It's also the impression that somebody gets when they're interacting with either staff or leadership. You may feel the same way if you go somewhere else and people are disconnected with you when you're getting a service. Thankfully you are able to speak the language and you can say, hey, what's up with that? You know, hey, what's going on with this? But many of times it's not even the language barriers. It's a lot about the relationships, the trust that's within providers. I always talk about the example of my mother and my children. Although they're in a dual language program, they understand Spanish and they're trying their best to speak Spanish, but there are times that they, each of them are speaking their own language, but they still understand each other because they've got that connection, they have that relationship. And my mom knows my child's intention, my child knows my mom's intention as to what we're trying to get to. And it's all about the relationship, versus it's, oh, here you go, and that's it.
DV: Can you pick out certain things in your background that you think helped to prepare you, that were part of your journey and led you to this pathway to leadership that you are in now? You mentioned for instance, translating for your mother and that is still something you do today in this role, you translate for other people, navigate systems, things like that.
HB: One of the biggest things--. And I constantly have to remind myself, because if you look at other places they think, oh, leadership is with the degree, or if you have something behind your name, or you--. I would say the non-conventional ways that leadership is portrayed. But leadership, from what I have seen, is you are getting yourself down and dirty with your community. You're there on the ground. And what you're doing is you're eventually translating to people that don't know what's going on and letting them know this is what’s happening, and this is what needs to go next. And this is what needs to go next. And sometimes I mention within people, if I, when I say deputy director, in my head I was like, maybe that's just for other people to understand where I am. But eventually, I'm just another person in the community. I'm just another--. I'm just like you and I. Which is funny, because my mom would always tell me, eres una directora. You've got to look like one. You got to act like one. I'm like, wait, what? What do you mean, ma? And she's like, no, you got to look like a directora. Almost like if I have to be in a suit and in a tie or I don't know, heels or like a businessperson that we would see at FBLA, you know, the Future Business Leaders of America. That's the image that they portray. A leader is this and you know, and you know that they’re here.
DV: They look the part traditionally.
HB: Yes. And that their presence can be felt every time they're in the room and like they're the highlight of everything and I'm like, I don't like that. And I do remember, I'm like, okay, I'm learning, that's what I need to be. And it's funny because sometimes people come around like, okay, who's the one in charge? [Laughter]. And I'm like, actually, that's me. But it's understanding that it's a role, a responsibility. It's not about the title, it just says that the title means you have more responsibilities. The responsibilities for the people that you're with, that you're working with, that you're trying to make an impact, to change. That's where I would have truly embraced it. Coming back within leadership, like I said. After, when was it, 2013, 2015, it's been the non-conventional leaders. I would always have some classmates say, within that group that graduated, there was one classmate that said, you're smart, but you don't--. Ah, what was it? He's like, you're a nerd, but you don't act like a nerd. He meant in the most positive way, he's like, you're so smart, but you don't act like a traditional person. And he was just like, I don't get it. I just don't get it. But like I said, just coming back, obviously it took several years for me to embrace that. That it's not what is portrayed out there. It's about, como dicen, okay you face the challenges, okay there's moments of, dang, like did I do it right? Am I doing this right? Dang, you question yourself like, maybe someone better could be here or, man, it's stressing me out with working with these people because, you know, I consider that I don't come at an aggressive stance when I'm working with new people, but then there's some people that are just, wow. You question yourself like, why are you here, respectfully? Like you're in this role that you have a big responsibility on making an impact on people and you close yourselves to it. And we were joking around with a colleague and my husband, actually yesterday. You know what, I realized I've got a list of people that don't like me. And he's like yeah, I realized that too. And he's like but I guess we just need to know that we're not going to be liked by everybody and that's okay. And it's about picking ourselves back up and realize okay, what haven't I figured out yet? Or what is it that I need to know more? Because obviously we're humans. And self-doubt comes and you know, hesitancy comes. But it's like, okay, these are legitimate questions, regardless of whether people look at you or talk down on you. I mentioned when they--. Just your presence around them, they make you feel like why is this idiot here? Because you see that, and growing up I would always, you know, everybody's working together, and it's been a learning curve. Learning curve that some people just don't want to work with you and it's okay. And it's okay and you know, you got to step back and look at the big picture of what you're trying to do.
DV: You face the challenge.
HB: Yeah and just like with everything there's a huge learning curve, and it's about having patience with yourself and it's harder than just, how would I say it, it's hard but at the same time it's important, it's valuable. Because you go through that moment and then you're looking at all the different points and then--. I always call it the dots are connecting in my brain. And understanding, okay this is different routes I need to take, these are different responses I need to do to whatever these challenges or opportunities are, and then you keep on going. And then you can do whatever you got to do. Si vas a limpiar, limpia. If you got to go and do something else, self-care, you do it, and then you get back up. You get back up and keep on trying. It's about not giving up in that part. I would say if there's, whoever's listening, if you are in that role, it's a matter of showing grace and kindness to other people because we're all just really trying, trying to make a difference, trying to make a change. Not only for ourselves, I always--. Obviously now I'm a mother, and I always think about the change for my children, the generations to come, my neighbors, my community. It's so cliche, I love it. How they say, I cannot change the world, but I can change my world. And my world is my family, my friends, my community.
DV: Well, speaking of your community, you were in all of these clubs in high school, then you were working in housing, then you became Deputy Director here at El Vínculo, the Hispanic Liaison. But more recently you were also Chair of ICAC, the Immigrant Community Advisory Council in Siler City. How did that come about?
HB: So, with ICAC, the Hispanic liaison had been involved with the Building Integrated Communities project with UNC in collaboration with Town of Siler City. That was around 2017 when it started. Out of that, there was an action plan, essentially telling the town of Siler City, here are some recommendations of how you can integrate immigrant communities into Siler City. Within the action plan, there's some Siler City action items, and then there's some other outside agencies that are involved in it, so it's just like a collective work. So, obviously the pandemic hit and there was a couple of pauses for one or two years and then in 2021, last year, Building Integrated Communities and El Vínculo Hispano approached the town of Siler City with a resolution to build an advisory board or committee to the town of Siler City to help guide them through this action plan, to give them recommendations with the ultimate goal of really pushing the action items among other responsibilities. So, when they made out the call for members of that committee, I submitted my letter of interest. To be part of this committee, you have to be an immigrant yourself, a child of an immigrant, a grandchild of an immigrant, having a close connection to Siler City. Either you live, or you work there or have a very specific interest with Siler City. That was pretty much the biggest responsibility, the biggest requirements really, and of course submitting the letter of interest for it. And so, I applied, and I became part of the inaugural group. There were seven of us and within our first meeting, that's where the group elected me to be their board chair. And so, within this first year, it's been a lot about learning. Learning about our role and truly understanding it on what does it mean to be in an advisory capacity? What are the regulations? But then also understanding and asking, well, why are those regulations in place? And so that we can fulfill our role to the best of our abilities. Within that group, there are wonderful professionals. There's an immigration attorney, there is a local law office manager. There is someone that is in marketing, someone that's a business owner veteran, someone that's in the school system. So, these are all professionals within our community involved in this group with different expertise and different insights to share a portion of our immigrant perspective in our community. And that's where we are today. Like I said, I'm chair over that advisory committee.
DV: Great. In your pathway to these leadership positions, do you have any challenges that you can pick out that you would want to share? Or maybe other lessons that you've learned along the way that you would want to share?
HB: Okay, well definitely there's going to be a lot of barriers that may come into play. It could be anywhere between access to education or maybe, especially if you never had that role model, which is very hard, or a mentor. But don't be afraid and ask. That was one of the things that they would always say: es que la Hannia habla mucho, she talks so much. And she will go and talk to anybody and it's not that I'm--. I might not seem like it, but I'm actually pretty shy. [Laughter]. I still like, okay, let me ask this, I need to understand this, because um so you'll find barriers either because you might not have the tools but that doesn't mean that you can't have the tools. Or you might know the resources yet. And so you'll find that. And what does that mean? That means approach people in leadership. And ask those questions. And keep on asking them until you understand. If they get annoyed, let them get annoyed. But no, you're going to keep on asking the questions, because it's important that you understand it because ultimately what's gonna happen is you will also be the advocate for the next person that comes in and share that, pass that information along, that knowledge along. And just like with anything, there's always that learning curve with anything new that you start. They say anything new with a business, anything new in education. I think that a pattern, a trend, that I've seen within the first three years of you doing anything, it's a lot about learning. Have grace with yourself while you're learning. If you can push through that, year one is a lot about, okay, here I am, I'm on the ground, and you're running. [Laughter]. Year two is your evaluation year. Okay, what happened year one? Because year one, you're going in there, you're going passionately. And year two, you're evaluating what's the processes? How did it work? How did it flow? What were the barriers that you found? What were some of the trends that you noticed? What were some of the activities that you saw for yourself, with your community, while you were doing whatever work that you were doing, and then just take a moment to step back and be like, okay, now what's going to be my response to it? What can I do next? And some of those you might not have an answer to, and that's totally fine. And then you keep on. Right now, and I can say that because we're going on to year two with the Immigrant Advisory Committee, going onto year two with our Lee County office, year two with my little one. He's that child that we fooled ourselves into thinking oh he's going be the same as the other two and we've got this and we're experienced parents and we're learning. But you keep on, you keep on and caring for yourself, you know yourself. Surround yourself with people that do care about you and people that will encourage you and people that will, maybe they might not have that answer for you, but that they're your safe space. You know to keep on keeping on.
DV: Speaking of keeping on, what do you envision for the roles that you're in right now in the future? Things you might want to accomplish, things you'd like to see your community have access to or accomplish. What do you see the future looking like, or what would you hope for the future?
HB: Well, within my role with the organization, still a lot of learning. Learning anything from A to Z. I love what I do. Growing up that was my goal. I always envisioned myself wanting to lead an organization, lead an organization, manage an organization that had the social aspect, and I am in this role. And I never thought that I would be, especially in the dark three years of my life. I was like, I am never going to accomplish that. Keep on learning that, being the best that I can for this role in this organization that I am in. With the community, giving the very best of my abilities to my community. I also see my community rising and being empowered by all the work that we do, being inspired, inspiring each other, and showcasing all the beautiful things that we have, especially in our culture and anything to do with the food, definitely, the music, the arts, the professionals that we have, the brilliant minds that might not be in traditional roles but darn, they are good at what they do. Highlighting that but then also collaborating with other communities. There is so much beauty, even when people might not think it. My son does not think it, my twelve-year-old. He is like, man this small town in boring, but there are so many beautiful members in our community. Being together, working together. There’s always going to be the hustle but there is also going to be life and enjoying. Unfortunately, vulnerable communities, communities of color--. In what we say, okay Hannia we have got to be realistic, and yeah, we are being realistic because there are different barriers that one would say would prevent our community to live that. That is when we say, okay we are going to strive for life and joy and everything that we deserve, but we are also going to hustle and raise our voices and say this is not correct. We are going to be working together collectively to make change, to make movement, make noise regardless of whoever gets frustrated, and sometimes we have to move quietly and that is totally fine. Seeing that grow in our community, and then for myself at the end of it all, I think I told you but, quiero un ranchito, I want a little casita. [Laughter]. Just like out in the country, with at most two acres, pues tan poco quiero exagerar. I just want a place that is not too big. Just enough for myself and for at least two other guests when they need to go there. My kids swear up and down that as soon as they get old, they are going to get their own places. I want that for them, but I know, especially because I would see it growing up my mother was an unofficial matriarch of our family in Siler City so our aunts and uncles would go there, pay their respects. Then they would leave and go do their things. More of like, hey big sister I am here I love you. Alright you are good? Yeah, and then you are done. Just a place that our family can go. I envision a patio that has enough gathering spaces for everybody to be out there, having their own hamaca, having a place for the kids to go and play. I want to see all the young and the old together. I want the younger ones to hear the stories of the old folks because they have some crazy stories let me tell you. [Laughter]. Learning from their experience and just a space. A space where they can be family. I will give a hand into gardening maybe. Not really, maybe just the basic plant because I don’t want to kill the plants. I’ve thought about a couple animalitos de granja, and a lot of plants, I like plants. You will just find me there.
DV: Okay, Hannia. Hannia, thank you very much for sharing your story with me.
HB: Thank you, Daniel.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Transcriber: Sofia Godoy and Daniel Velásquez
Interview Date: 2022 November 18
Date of Transcription: 2023 July 17 / Revisions: 2023 October 9
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Title
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R-1007 -- Benítez, Hannia.
Description
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Born in Guatemala but raised in Siler City, North Carolina, Hannia Benítez currently serves her local communities as Deputy Director at El Vínculo Hispano/The Hispanic Liaison’s office in Lee County and as Chair of Siler City’s Immigrant Community Advisory Committee (ICAC). Hannia shares her foundational experiences, including the need to be her family’s interpreter during her childhood and her engagement in several clubs throughout High School. A few years later, the advent of the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program helped her during a difficult time in her personal life by opening opportunities for employment and education. While working in the housing sector, Hannia joined the Board of Directors of El Vínculo Hispano, eventually serving as board chair and later transitioning to staff as deputy director of El Vínculo’s first satellite office in Lee County. Lastly, she shares her experience during her first year serving in ICAC, which she explains has been a time for asking questions and learning the workings of local government in order to position their efforts in the coming years. Throughout, Hannia shares advice for future leaders by describing her sense of responsibility for the people and communities that she serves while showing grace and kindness in the face of adversity.
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
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No restrictions. Open to research
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2022-11-18
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29337">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
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R1007_Audio.mp3
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R1007_Audio.mp3