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https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/967b0f17dc4c9f9ac0b85b1c32a0a225.mp3
884572e51e9b66a0f6184c94491976b5
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/90dfba9151c6a073aa4ebc9013b485b2.pdf
b8235f474a31398262d72a91ff78bdf5
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-1013
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
Fecha
2023-04-15
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Bredenberg, Cynthia.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Teachers
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1972
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Hudson Falls -- Washington County -- New York
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Pittsboro -- Chatham County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
N/A
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Andrew, Lindley.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Cindy Bredenberg discusses her experiences and observations as a Spanish teacher at Jordan-Matthews High School in Siler City, North Carolina. She shares about her school’s demographics and the school culture and reflects on her experiences working with students throughout her fifteen years working at Jordan-Matthews, many of whom Latinx. Cindy also describes the challenges faced by many of her students, specifically those related to financial strain, the lack of quality affordable housing, anxiety, and the impact of stigmatization by community members. She differentiates between the experiences of her U.S.-born students and those who have migrated to North Carolina from other countries, and she shares some challenges specific to her undocumented students, including the stress of financially providing for family members in their home country and lack of access to federal financial aid for higher education. Cindy also details the importance of relationship-building between teachers and students and explains how students are more likely to reach out to teachers and school staff for help if they have a previously established trusting relationship. She also describes the “grassroots” nature of helping students and shares some of the in-school and community-based resources available to students and those specifically targeted to help students newly arriving from other countries. Finally, she describes the rise of charter schools in Chatham County and shifts in school demographics.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Cynthia Bredenberg by Lindley Andrew, 15 April 2023, R-1013, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29355
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
K12 education; Citizenship and immigration; Health; DREAMers and DACA; Community and social services and programs
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Maestros
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Cindy Bredenberg describe sus experiencias y observaciones como maestra de español en la escuela secundaria Jordan-Matthews en Siler City, Carolina del Norte. Ella habla sobre la demografía y el ambiente de su escuela y reflexiona sobre sus experiencias ayudando a varios estudiantes durante sus quince años trabajando en Jordan-Matthews, muchos de los cuales han sido latinos. Cindy también describe los desafíos que enfrentan muchos de sus estudiantes, específicamente aquellos relacionados con la tensión financiera, la falta de vivienda asequible de calidad, la ansiedad y el impacto de la estigmatización por los miembros de la comunidad. Ella distingue entre las experiencias de sus estudiantes nacidos en los EE. UU. y aquellos que han emigrado a Carolina del Norte desde otros países. Ella también habla de algunos desafíos que enfrentan sus estudiantes indocumentados, incluido el estrés de mandar dinero a los familiares que han quedado en el país de origen y la falta de acceso a financiación federal para la educación superior. Cindy también describe la importancia de construir relaciones entre maestros y estudiantes y explica cómo es más probable que los estudiantes se comuniquen con los maestros si tienen una relación de confianza ya establecida. También describe el modo ""grassroots"" de ayudar a los estudiantes y comparte algunos de los recursos escolares y comunitarios disponibles para los estudiantes, incluyendo aquellos específicamente destinados a ayudar a los estudiantes recién llegados de otros países. Finalmente, ella describe el crecimiento de las escuelas “charters” en el condado de Chatham y los cambios en la demografía de las poblaciones escolares.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Cynthia Bredenberg por Lindley Andrew, 15 April 2023, R-1013, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Educación básica y media; Ciudadanía e inmigración; Salud; Movimiento de jóvenes 'Soñadores' y Acción Diferida; Programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
[00:00:00] START OF RECORDING
Lindley Andrew: Hi, my name is Lindley Andrew, and I’m here with Cindy Bredenberg, a high school teacher. It is April 15th, 2023, and we’re here in Chatham County, North Carolina. Today we’ll be discussing the effects of immigration-related stressors on the health and well-being of youth in Latinx immigrant communities, specifically Siler City, North Carolina. Cindy, just to get your oral consent, do I have your permission to continue interviewing you and for it to go on the New Roots website?
Cynthia Bredenberg: You do.
LA: Awesome. So just to start out, can you tell me a little bit about your school and the community that it’s in?
CB: Sure. I teach at Jordan-Matthews High School, which is located in Siler City, North Carolina. We’re maybe about forty minutes from Chapel Hill and about twenty minutes from Asheboro. We’re a small community. We’re located in Chatham County, and so our school district-- the northern part of our district is right in Chapel Hill, but for us, we’re kind of on the line with Randolph County, so a totally different demographic than what you would find near Chapel Hill. So, our school has about 850 students right now, and we’re sixty percent Hispanic, twenty-five percent Caucasian, and fifteen percent African American.
LA: Awesome. So, can you tell me a little bit about your-- what you do as a teacher, what you teach, specifically, and just kind of like the culture of your school?
CB: Sure. I have been teaching at Jordan-Matthews-- this is my fifteenth year. I am a non-native Spanish speaker, and when I was hired as a Spanish teacher, they asked me if I could teach native speakers Spanish because there was a need for that, so I said, “Sure!” [laughs] So that was my first time doing that, but I’ve been there for fifteen years now. I teach everything from Spanish one, two, three, and four, that would be for our non-native, non-heritage speakers. I’ve taught Spanish one and two native speakers, I teach AP Spanish Language and Culture, and I also teach a Syracuse University Project Advance class, Spanish 201. So, I pretty much taught anything at Jordan-Matthews, anything and everything. I work with students who speak English at home and students who speak Spanish at home, but predominantly students who speak Spanish at home.
LA: Awesome. And so, I guess because we’re going to be talking about immigrant youth and families, in your experience working with these kinds of students and their families, what have you observed are some of the most pressing stressors by these individuals? And how have students brought these stressors to your attention?
CB: Sure. Obviously, economics play a huge role in our families, and that’s a stressor. Over the fifteen years of working at Jordan-Matthews, I’ve had many students who worked night jobs. They might go to work at 5:30 in the afternoon and work until 3:00 in the morning, and then they go to bed for a couple hours and then come to school. I’ve had students who-- when I started at J-M, we still had students who were working in the cotton fields. And I had students who would go and pick cotton when the sun came up and then they would come to school, and then they would go back and pick cotton in Lee County. Maybe not so much in Chatham County, but they were traveling to where their parents were working. So, economics are a big thing. The lack of safe housing, sustainable housing. We do have about three trailer parks in Siler City, and so I believe that there is housing available, but it’s not quality housing, and some of the trailer parks where students live are very old, and it’s no place that you would ever want to live, yourself. So affordable housing that’s safe and quality housing-- finances are a huge part, and then also I think the stressors of children always worried about whether or not their parents will be taken away. I think that plays a huge roll in our students’ everyday lives.
LA: Yeah, and how have students typically brought these issues to your attention? Is it just kind of something you observe, or do they often reach out to you, or what is that like?
CB: So, it’s a little bit of both. Being that I’m established at the school, a lot of families know me, and so they feel comfortable coming to me. But if it’s a student who’s new, and they don’t know me -- you know, I’m a white lady who has an accent when she speaks Spanish -- so they don’t necessarily trust me right off the bat that, you know, we have to earn that trust. But, for a lot of the kids, they know me, I know their parents now, and so I think they probably do feel a little bit more comfortable coming to talk to me. And some, I think, with our students who are newly arrived to the United States, because I speak Spanish and they speak Spanish and they don’t speak English, I think it’s probably out of desperation, maybe, that they come and see me because they don’t know who else to talk to and I’m a teacher that speaks Spanish. Being a woman, I do have girls who will come and talk to me; maybe they wouldn’t talk to anyone else.
LA: Yeah, and just to kind of clarify and give a little bit of a distinction, could you distinguish between some of the challenges that are specific to students who are immigrants themselves, maybe newcomers like you just mentioned, versus the challenges faced by students who maybe have parents or family members who are immigrants, but they themselves were born in the U.S.?
CB: Sure. I didn’t really know about that distinction until I really saw it in my classroom. About ten years ago when I was teaching an AP Spanish class, I had students who were born here, but their parents were immigrants -- Hispanic students -- and in the same class, I had Hispanic students who had just come to our country. And I was really shocked and surprised by the way that the students who were citizens treated the non-citizens. Not overtly rude, but it was almost like passive aggressive, the way that they treated them. So that was really my first eye-opener to, “Wow they don’t see them as equals” or “They don’t see them as part of them.” So over the years we really try to work with kids at our school to try to get the kids who were born here and see themselves as, although they may be of Mexican or Guatemalan descent, they see themselves as American-- how can we get them to help the students who are new to our school. And so that’s something that we work on. So those students that are new to our school oftentimes they only socialize with each other, so they’re only speaking Spanish. Oftentimes they don’t know how to navigate the school system, they don’t know how to use the computer, they don’t -- because they’re only talking with each other in Spanish -- it does take them longer to learn English. And one thing that’s good about our school is we have a lot of courses that are offered in Spanish. In some ways I think that’s bad because it doesn’t enable those students to get out with the other students and to meet other kids. So that’s something that I think we try to work on to help our kids, who are typically an ESL student, interact with other students in the building. The other thing is getting those students who are U.S. citizens to work with those kids who are newcomers, to make them see that, you know, “We’re all human,” and they’re not so far removed from that. The students who are citizens already have many more opportunities than the students who aren’t. I have students who maybe came here at three years old or four years old and don’t remember anything about Mexico, but they’re not citizens. They receive an education, just like everybody else, and then when they’re seniors in high school and they’re applying to college, it’s really hard for them, really difficult to realize that their friends sitting next to them can pay a thousand dollars to go to the local community college, and they’re going to have to pay eight thousand dollars. And it just doesn’t seem fair. And it’s not fair. So that’s one thing I see also between citizens and non-citizens.
LA: Yeah. And do you think that many people in Siler City, in North Carolina, are aware of that kind of distinction between youth who are immigrants themselves versus youth who are children of immigrants? Because I often see them lumped together in a lot of popular narratives, and so is that something that you’ve noticed?
CB: Definitely lumped together. If we’re talking about Siler City, in particular, the white or African American population who are established in Siler City, they often lump all of our immigrants together as Mexican, and they do not understand the difference between if a child is a citizen or not a citizen, the opportunities that are afforded to the child that can apply for FAFSA, for financial aid, for all the scholarships, as compared to the child who is just as smart and has worked just as hard in high school and they don’t have those opportunities. No, people definitely don’t see that. So it’s interesting, I think, as -- I’m not originally from North Carolina. Like I said, I’ve been here fifteen years, so as an outsider, it’s interesting for me to see other groups of people that have historically been disadvantaged, how they treat now these Hispanic people who are now disadvantaged. It’s an interesting thing for me to see as an outsider.
LA: Yeah. Could you just elaborate on that just a little bit more?
CB: Sure. In Siler City, for example, we have a charter school. And the charter school, historically, was for white families. And now we have a lot of African American families sending their students there because they don’t want to send them to the public school because we are sixty percent Hispanic. Whereas so many of our Hispanic students at school, they’re fantastic, they’re super smart, they’re great, they’re funny, they’re great kids, but there’s this view of, “Oh, we’re not going to send our kids there.” And so, again, as an outsider, I see it as, “Well wait a minute, that’s how you were treated years ago,” but people don’t see it that way. They see it as the charter school is providing more opportunities for their kids. But I definitely see that our Hispanic students, and Hispanic families, are treated as second-class citizens many times in Siler City.
LA: Yeah, thanks for kind of giving a little bit more detail about that. I think that’s really important, and--.
CB: I think--. Can I speak to that also about Chatham County?
LA: Yeah.
CB: Because in--. So in Chatham County we have two elementary schools that offer a dual-language program. So, in Siler City, we have many more Hispanic students in the program than we have white or African American. Not that we don’t have the kids to fill those seats. The parents aren’t sending their kids to the dual-language school. So, in Siler City, the majority of the students in the program are Hispanic. In the same county, just forty minutes away, right near Chapel Hill, we have another elementary school, North Chatham, and the predominantly white students go there, and we don’t have enough Hispanic students. So the interesting part is, that in North Chatham, those white parents value their children being bilingual, but in the same county -- which, we know those parents are predominantly from other places, they’re not from Chatham County originally. Whereas in the same county, in Siler City, the white and African American parents from Chatham County do not typically send their kids to the dual-language school. They do not value their children being with those other kids, and they do not value their children being bilingual. It’s very interesting.
LA: That is really interesting. And in your fifteen years, have you noticed any shift in that perception or has it kind of maintained?
CB: I think it’s gotten worse. I think for a while we had parents sending their children to Siler City Elementary. Now, that speaks to the administration that was at Siler City Elementary at the time. A local person who was the principal at Siler City Elementary, I think the parents valued that person’s opinion. But I think as time has gone on, we see more of them sending their children to the charter schools.
LA: Interesting. Yeah, that would be fascinating to do research about, and collect perspectives and kind of map those.
CB: If people would be honest with their perspectives, it would be very interesting, yes.
LA: This is kind of switching gears a little bit, but in your experience knowing some mixed-status families -- which for listeners who may not exactly know what mixed-status is, that’s when there are some family members who are documented and others who aren’t -- what are some of the additional responsibilities and challenges that U.S. citizen-born children take on to help their undocumented parents or family members.
CB: Yeah, or siblings.
LA: Or siblings.
CB: We’ve had families at our school that two siblings have been citizens and one or two have not been citizens, and that’s so hard, when one of the children gets into college and applies for financial aid, and can go on, and the other child cannot, although they’re super smart. One thing I see when the parents were not born here, but the children were, or the children were raised here from a young age, the children oftentimes act not only as a translator, but the children act as the go-between between the school, between the local government, between the doctor’s office, dentist office-- and that’s a big responsibility. It’s also-- language is a powerful tool. Many times, I’ve seen children who maybe don’t want to tell their parents everything that’s being translated. It may be an uncomfortable topic, or maybe that they don’t want their parents to know, or maybe even they’re not sure how to translate some of the conversation. So that puts a big stressor on the child. And again, we have families that, you know, children are told not to answer the door. Children are told, maybe, not to talk to police. Children are told not to divulge any information to teachers or to counselors. And so those children are keeping that all inside. And so, we see by the time that they get to high school a lot of these kids are treated as adults. I have a seventeen-year-old son. When I look at some of the things that some of my kids who are seventeen -- my Hispanic students who are seventeen -- the things, the responsibilities that they carry, whether its mental, physical, you know, helping the family financially, caring for all the children while the parents are at work, things that my child just doesn’t have an idea about. So, I think we see these kids come to school with--. Oh, and another thing, sometimes I’ll say to the kids, “Hey, can you come in tomorrow like quarter of eight?” “No, maestra, I have to take my little brother to school, and I have to take my cousin to school.” Especially if they were born here and can get a driver’s license, then the family really depends on them for the transportation of younger siblings, of parents to doctors’ appointments. Kids often miss school because they are the driver and the translator for family members to go to appointments.
LA: Right. Are many of the newcomers that arrive in Siler City, are they unaccompanied minors or do some come with family members, or what’s the breakdown there? And how are they maybe received differently depending on that?
CB: Okay, so just this year, I’ve had ten new students who have come across the border unaccompanied. And they have family members who live in Siler City. Maybe an uncle, a cousin. And some of them, I don’t even know how they’ve reached Siler City. I think crossing the border. I think COVID in their country was probably--. They were on their own. Crossing the border, I think was an adventure, coming to Siler City was an adventure, and now the United States Government says, “Well you have to go to school,” and it’s just kind of another adventure for them right now. They don’t really see the benefit in education. They’re almost in a limbo, some of these kids, because they’re living with one family member, they’re not living with their parents. They, definitely right now, in our community, they all hang together. Where our families that have been here for a generation don’t necessarily communicate with them so much. Does that make sense?
LA: Yes.
CB: They have their families, they have their jobs, their kids are in school. And then these newcomer students that we have, they’re still trying to figure out what the whole education system is, what our schedule is like, why do you have to go to four classes a day, why can’t you leave when you want to leave. Honestly, I think these kids have been on their own for a couple years, and now they’re saying, “We have to stay at school? We can’t just walk out? Well at our school, we can just walk out.” And so, it’s not only coming to the United States, it’s just the whole school culture that is really foreign to them. Right now, we have a lot of kids at our school trying to work through that.
LA: And what resources, maybe within the school or just the community, state, are available to those students who are trying to just understand the realities of living in Siler City, North Carolina after coming from a country far away?
CB: Right, right. So, within our school system, I think our school -- Chatham County Schools -- we try to work really hard to help those students. We have counselors, we have bilingual staff. From when you walk in the door of our schools that have dual-language programs -- and even, I think some of the other schools -- the minute you walk in, we have staff who are bilingual who greet you. We have counselors. If they don’t speak Spanish, we make sure that a translator is there. Same with our social workers. We have therapists that offer services to the students. We also have in Chatham County, in Siler City, in particular, we have Vínculo Hispano, which is a great resource for newcomers to help them just with the whole process of-- well anything. Anything that they might encounter, whether it’s government, doctor, whatever, Vínculo Hispano helps them with that. And I think, on the county level, also they really try to help give resources to Siler City. We also have I think in Siler City-- we also culturally try to really recognize the Hispanic culture and celebrate that. You know, whether it might be September 15th, and independence, or whether it’s Cinco de Mayo, or whatever it might be, I think that culture, we do try to celebrate that within Siler City.
LA: Yeah. So, I know we’ve talked quite a bit about the stressors and challenges faced by youth who are immigrants themselves or family members of immigrants. Could you talk a little bit about how these stressors and challenges affect students’ mental or physical health, and then, I know we just touched on the services available, but if you have any others to add that are related directly to mental or physical health--.
CB: Sure. I think particularly since COVID, I think one thing that I see in anxiety. I can speak of, right now, I have two students who are suffering from some anxiety issues, and I think it’s because they are working while attending school and trying to send money home to their families, and they’re teenage girls. And they’re in AP Spanish, and, you know, they have to do some homework, and I definitely try to limit the amount of work that I send home with my students, especially those that work outside of school because they really are trying to help support their families. And so that anxiety comes over into the classroom. You know, when I’m asking a student to write a timed essay on a topic that--. I think we do a good job at Jordan-Matthews offering classes in Spanish. I don’t know that we offer enough levels of the classes in Spanish. We have AP Spanish Language and Culture, we have AP Spanish Literature, we have Spanish for native speakers, we have a history class in Spanish. But what we’ve found right now is we need to start looking at some varying levels of these classes because we’re really just grouping all those kids together. “Oh, you speak Spanish? Oh, we’re going to put you in the history class,” but that’s causing some more anxiety because maybe they’ve never studied at that level before. And so yes, the class is being given in Spanish, but they don’t understand the process of having to take notes, or, you know, “Read a chapter for tomorrow and answer these questions.” So that’s adding another stressor to them. We do have an ESL Academy, which is pretty successful, but I almost think maybe we need to offer some varying levels of our Spanish classes so that students can be more successful, and they wouldn’t be so stressed for that.
LA: Right. Can you talk a little bit about the ESL Academy, and just kind of what that is and how that benefits students?
CB: Sure. So our ESL Academy really exists to help--. Because we’ve had so many students who are coming from a predominantly Spanish-speaking country, we’ve had a few students from other countries, but predominantly Spanish-speaking, we have so many students who are coming from Spanish-speaking countries that we just did not offer enough classes for them to assimilate into our school. So, they started this ESL Academy, is what it’s called, and at least two out of the four classes a day, the students are with the ESL teachers. Now, we offer one of those classes as physical education, so, you know, they’re outside running around and doing physical activity, but we have it within ESL Academy. Another class that we have within ESL Academy is, well, we have a few, whether it’s like reading and writing or public speaking, or whatever it might be. I think the students benefit because they do try to focus on English, but those students are together at least one or two classes a day so they can kind of touch base with each other. Now I think they touch base with each other in Spanish, but at least they get to see each other.
LA: Yeah. Let’s see, so--.
CB: Oh, services.
LA: Yeah.
CB: I’m sorry.
LA: No, it’s okay.
CB: I didn’t talk about the services.
LA: It’s okay, yeah, what services are available to these students that may be experiencing, like you said, anxiety in the classroom, or who’ve brought some other mental health concern to the teachers?
CB: Well, and even physical.
LA: Yeah.
CB: I had a student who, over the course of a couple days, I realized he had a terrible toothache, and I wasn’t quite sure what to do so I contacted the school nurse who kind of called around our town and found a dentist who said, “Oh yes, bring the student. Bring him in, let’s see how we can help him,” and ultimately the student needed a root canal, and this dentist just stepped forward and was like, “Let him pay what he can pay. Yes, this is another human being, and I’m going to help him as much as I can,” which really, I loved that because I was like, “Ok, yes, there are good people.” So, it’s kind of grassroots sometimes how we help our students. In terms of serviced offered right at school, like with our nurse, she’s fantastic, we had a student who needed glasses. The mom didn’t speak any English, but we got a translator who was able to go to the eye doctor with them right in our town, and the local Lion’s Club paid for the student’s classes. So there definitely are good people in our community who want to help our newcomers. At school, definitely I think the resources that are used the most are our--. We offer therapists, and our school counselors, and our social workers, and I think that they are probably utilized the most. And we have translators. We have two translators at school who sit in on those meetings and translate as necessary.
LA: Yeah, thanks for sharing about the services about the services. I really liked how you mentioned kind of the grassroots nature of sometimes how students are able to be helped as kind of like a joint effort between a lot of kind of random people--.
CB: How we get things done.
LA: Yeah. I don’t know if you have any more to expand on that, but if you do, I would love to hear a little bit more about that just--. You know, if a service doesn’t inherently exist, but you kind of can reach out to so-and-so or whatever to provide for student.
CB: Well, we had a student a few years ago, who came to me and she’s a DACA student, and she had applied to a scholarship specifically for DACA students, and she won a scholarship. There are a number of universities in the U.S. that offer free four-year degrees, a four-year education, for DACA students. And so, the school that she was awarded was at Christian Brothers University in Memphis, Tennessee. And so, she came to me, and she said -- and she really wasn’t excited -- and she said, “Well, I won the scholarship.” And I was like, “Oh my gosh!” I was acting crazy, “You won the scholarship!” And she said, “But it’s in Memphis, Tennessee,” and I said, “So?” And she said, “Maestra, how will I get to Memphis?” And I said, “We’re going to work it out.” So, what we did was, we packed up the car, her parents got in the car, we drove, she checked out the college, they had a fantastic program, we drove back, and ultimately, she went there, and she graduated with a four-year degree. So, she’s not our only student who has won the degree at Christian Brothers University. So, each time, I think the teacher support, and I think it’s kind of grassroots because the teachers that help these students who are undocumented or who have no idea about college, but we know that we can get them a scholarship--. You know, we’re still checking up on them after they go away to college. “Hey, how are you doing? What do you need? How can we help you?” So, I think definitely at Jordan-Matthews, there are a lot of teachers who understand the situation the students are in. Now there are some who are new, and they don’t. But the teachers -- there’s probably a good core of five or six teachers -- who understand that student situation, and they try to help however possible. Reach out to the community, reach out to local resources, to get that grassroots stuff done.
LA: Awesome. That’s really heartening to hear that there are people doing good work, even when it’s not necessarily in their job title. So, this kind of leads right into the next question. So, in your experience, were teachers and other support staff -- like counselors, therapists, school social workers -- are they prepared to help students with these specific stressors that are specifically for children who are immigrants themselves, whether documented or undocumented, and then who are children of immigrants?
CB: I think it’s like anything else. I think you have some teachers who really do want to figure out what’s going on with that child in their room, and where is this coming from. And I’m a big proponent--. I would like to do more home visits. I think that we could reach more parents doing home visits. But then there are some teachers who are like, “Whoa, no, I don’t want to go to their home. I just want to come do my job and go home at night.” And that’s all personality, you know, how people are. We have some teachers who, yes, they understand, and they want to know more about it, and then I think we have some teachers that don’t understand, and maybe--. And the interesting thing is, we have some teachers who are from other Spanish-speaking countries -- they’re visiting international teachers -- over the course of the years. Some of them really understand the plight of our immigrants, and some of them don’t, depending on what country they come from. So, one thing that we try to do, we do try to have informational sessions about, that we are a dual-language school, and that, “Information that you send home needs to be in both languages, or if you need to make a call home, let us know and we will translate for you so that you can communicate effectively with the parent.” So, I think being a dual-language school we do try to promote that more, making sure that communication is there, making sure that outreach is there, but there’s always more we could do. Definitely.
LA: And so, I know that you just said that being a dual-language school has helped in that there are more translators available and maybe an increased awareness of the struggle that a lot of these students face. Do you think that is unique to Jordan-Matthews primarily because it’s a dual-language school. In other words, is that awareness present in the other high schools in Chatham County that you’ve seen or is there less awareness in other schools that don’t have this immersion program?
CB: There is less awareness. I don’t think it’s due to the dual-language program. I think it’s due to the demographics. We were invited to another high school in the county, and the experience that my students had at that high school was eye-opening, that we are in the same county, and my students were treated like they were not equals. And it was all addressed, but I don’t think just being a dual-language school has to do with it. I think it’s the demographics of the school where you are, and the people that you have in the school.
LA: Do you see in Siler City, or in Chatham County more broadly, a stigmatization or kind of marginalization of your students and their families, and if so, how does that manifest and what is done about it?
CB: Sure. Language and economics are a powerful thing. It’s no secret that the families in Siler City don’t have much money, don’t have many resources. Would I like to see more resources in our schools? Always. Now, that being said, as the dual-language chairperson at Jordan-Matthews, Chatham County Schools has been great in our program. They really work with us. Just about anything I ask for, we get for our students. So, I think resources are really good. I do think that public perception--. How should I say this? Coming out of COVID and, I don’t want to be too political, I’m really not a political person, but I thought that I saw more negativity during the last presidential administration towards our immigrants. And so, coming out of COVID, I do think that there is a little more negativity towards immigrants as a whole, not only in our town, our county, our state, our country. And so that’s something that we’re always working on to try to break that stigma of, “Yes, our students at Jordan-Matthews might be majority Hispanic. They might be poor, but don’t try to tell me that they’re gang members, and don’t try to put on stereotypes that don’t exist.” So yes, I think that’s something that we’re always working for, to promote the excellent things happening at our school with our students to break stereotypes that people have.
LA: And what effect do those stereotypes have on students themselves? Is it something that they even think about or notice or is it something that they take really personally? Does it vary? What have you noticed?
CB: I notice it because as a white woman, there are white people in our community that think I share the same ideas that they do because I’m white. And so, people will make comments to me about, “All those Mexicans.” I’m like, “Well, actually, they’re from Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Colombia, Venezuela,” and then they kind of look at me, you know. So, are the students aware of the stigma? I think when they’re in our school, they’re maybe not necessarily aware of that, but when they go to other schools--. You know, there’s a brand-new high school on the other side of the county, and I think the kids do say, “Wow, why don’t we have this? Is it because we’re not as good?” And as a teacher you have to go, “No, that’s not why. No, you guys are awesome.” But I do think perceptions of--. And I don’t think it’s Chatham County, it’s not our Chatham County Schools, it’s not our local government, it’s more members of the community have negative perceptions about our kids. And so those are definitely stereotypes. We’re always trying to lift our kids up and remind them of how fantastic they are. And we’re trying to grow our own. We try to have Hispanic students who go off to college and maybe want to be teachers come back so that our students can see themselves reflected in the staff of our school. But that being said, obviously, I don’t look like my students, but I think they know that I support them to the very end, you know. But it would be nice if they could see themselves reflected in the community.
LA: Yeah, I love that you brought that up. What benefits do you think students receive from having a teacher who does reflect themselves. Like, I know that Jordan-Matthews has quote a few teachers who are native Spanish-speakers and are not originally from the United States, and so even if their countries of origin aren’t the same and their stories are very different, what benefits do students have from having those kinds of teachers.
CB: Sure. Just being able to relate to that person or just being able to say, “Hey that teacher not only looks like me, but is from another country.” Or, “that teacher had that experience like I did.” We definitely had some teachers who came here as immigrants and now they’re citizens. So, it makes it more possible also, like, “Hey, they did that so maybe I can do that.” I did have a conversation this year with one of my students, who is a senior, and I said to that student, it’s a female, and I said, “How do you feel about this topic? Do you feel bad sometimes that we don’t have more representation,” and she said, “Oh yeah, I would love to have teachers that look like me.” I mean, I love her. We get along great, but I apologized. I’m like, “I’m so sorry.” So that’s something that we have to work on as a country, I think. Valuing education, valuing teachers so that we get more diversity and more people going into education so then our students and our class can look up and go, “Hey, that person looks like me,” or “Hey, they did it so I can do it.” I think that is really important.
LA: Yeah, and that is definitely an issue way bigger than Siler City, Chatham County. Valuing teachers to encourage everyone to join the profession is a huge issue across the country.
CB: Yeah, as a mom of boys, I mean, I wish my kids had more male teachers. So, I can see where my Latino students, there is--. Now, that being said, I mean we have four, five, six teachers right now who are Latinos, but we have almost nine hundred students. We could have a whole bunch more.
LA: And what’s interesting is that some schools don’t even have four, five, six, you know. In this county, which is interesting. Speaking of teachers and school staff, what resources or trainings or really anything, do you think could better prepare them to work with students like the ones we’ve been talking about.
CB: Yeah, so I think a lot of the training that teachers go through when they have professional development, they feel like it’s not valuable or, “How can I use this in my classroom?” We had a student a few years ago who now has a full scholarship to Wake Forest University. She’s fantastic, and she actually came -- she was newly arrived, she was an ESL student, but she was passionate about the environment -- and she came and did a presentation to the faculty about starting a recycling program at school, how important recycling was, and she did it in English of a student who’d only been there a year. It was fantastic because she was so passionate about this topic, and all the teachers were like, “Wow, listening to this student, and she’s in ESL, and she’s really trying, she’s really--.” And that made that connection with that student with the faculty. So I think one thing that we need to do is just remind faculty members about where these students are from, what their backgrounds are, but that they are super smart and that they’re passionate about different topics, and things like that. Another thing I think that we have done well in the past and that we need to remember to do well, is a lot about language acquisition and, “How do students learn in in your English classes, and how can they take that learning, whether it’s in math or science or English or whatever class it is, and put it back into their own language?” Our teachers are spending a lot of time translating and trying to figure out how to best reach these kids whose first language is Spanish, who are newcomers. And I don’t think it’s just Siler City or Chatham County. I think across North Carolina, across the United States, we need to try to do more to help teachers with second-language acquisition with their students.
LA: Yeah. I guess this is kind of going back just a little bit, but what might make a student more or less likely to reach out to teachers or support services for help? You know, you talked about building the relationship between students and faculty and how that increases awareness and visibility, but are there other thing that make a student more likely or less likely to reach out to school staff for help if needed?
CB: Definitely our newcomer students are not going to reach out to people like me if they don’t know me. They see me as a white lady. They don’t know that I’m trying to help them. So, establishing the relationship with your students is so important. That’s why I think at Jordan-Matthews, it’s really good that the first people that they encounter, you know, they walk in the building and our two translators are both Hispanic, super nice, warm, inviting people, really try to get to know the kids, help them out, and so then they’re the translators for the guidance counselors. That kind of breaks the ice with that. So, I do know that a lot of those kids who’ve just come to our country, immediately go to our secretaries because they’re bilingual and they can help them out. So, building the relationships, it’s really important. And also, I think for the kids to see you in other roles. Maybe they see you helping a different Hispanic student in Spanish or maybe a topic that you talk about in class they think, “Oh, well maybe this person’s not the stereotypical white person.” But I think for our newcomers, having those people who speak Spanish is a game-changer for them. I think they’re the people that they relate to first.
LA: Right.
CB: Does that help?
LA: Yeah, that’s great. I think those are all the questions that I have. I have really enjoyed talking with you. Are there any parting thoughts? If not, I will go ahead and end it here.
CB: No, thank you for letting me participate. I appreciate it.
LA: Of course, it’s been awesome.
CB: Okay.
[00:43:34] END OF RECORDING
Transcribed by Lindley Andrew on April 20th, 2023
Es: Transcripción
[00:00:00] START OF RECORDING
Lindley Andrew: Hi, my name is Lindley Andrew, and I’m here with Cindy Bredenberg, a high school teacher. It is April 15th, 2023, and we’re here in Chatham County, North Carolina. Today we’ll be discussing the effects of immigration-related stressors on the health and well-being of youth in Latinx immigrant communities, specifically Siler City, North Carolina. Cindy, just to get your oral consent, do I have your permission to continue interviewing you and for it to go on the New Roots website?
Cynthia Bredenberg: You do.
LA: Awesome. So just to start out, can you tell me a little bit about your school and the community that it’s in?
CB: Sure. I teach at Jordan-Matthews High School, which is located in Siler City, North Carolina. We’re maybe about forty minutes from Chapel Hill and about twenty minutes from Asheboro. We’re a small community. We’re located in Chatham County, and so our school district-- the northern part of our district is right in Chapel Hill, but for us, we’re kind of on the line with Randolph County, so a totally different demographic than what you would find near Chapel Hill. So, our school has about 850 students right now, and we’re sixty percent Hispanic, twenty-five percent Caucasian, and fifteen percent African American.
LA: Awesome. So, can you tell me a little bit about your-- what you do as a teacher, what you teach, specifically, and just kind of like the culture of your school?
CB: Sure. I have been teaching at Jordan-Matthews-- this is my fifteenth year. I am a non-native Spanish speaker, and when I was hired as a Spanish teacher, they asked me if I could teach native speakers Spanish because there was a need for that, so I said, “Sure!” [laughs] So that was my first time doing that, but I’ve been there for fifteen years now. I teach everything from Spanish one, two, three, and four, that would be for our non-native, non-heritage speakers. I’ve taught Spanish one and two native speakers, I teach AP Spanish Language and Culture, and I also teach a Syracuse University Project Advance class, Spanish 201. So, I pretty much taught anything at Jordan-Matthews, anything and everything. I work with students who speak English at home and students who speak Spanish at home, but predominantly students who speak Spanish at home.
LA: Awesome. And so, I guess because we’re going to be talking about immigrant youth and families, in your experience working with these kinds of students and their families, what have you observed are some of the most pressing stressors by these individuals? And how have students brought these stressors to your attention?
CB: Sure. Obviously, economics play a huge role in our families, and that’s a stressor. Over the fifteen years of working at Jordan-Matthews, I’ve had many students who worked night jobs. They might go to work at 5:30 in the afternoon and work until 3:00 in the morning, and then they go to bed for a couple hours and then come to school. I’ve had students who-- when I started at J-M, we still had students who were working in the cotton fields. And I had students who would go and pick cotton when the sun came up and then they would come to school, and then they would go back and pick cotton in Lee County. Maybe not so much in Chatham County, but they were traveling to where their parents were working. So, economics are a big thing. The lack of safe housing, sustainable housing. We do have about three trailer parks in Siler City, and so I believe that there is housing available, but it’s not quality housing, and some of the trailer parks where students live are very old, and it’s no place that you would ever want to live, yourself. So affordable housing that’s safe and quality housing-- finances are a huge part, and then also I think the stressors of children always worried about whether or not their parents will be taken away. I think that plays a huge roll in our students’ everyday lives.
LA: Yeah, and how have students typically brought these issues to your attention? Is it just kind of something you observe, or do they often reach out to you, or what is that like?
CB: So, it’s a little bit of both. Being that I’m established at the school, a lot of families know me, and so they feel comfortable coming to me. But if it’s a student who’s new, and they don’t know me -- you know, I’m a white lady who has an accent when she speaks Spanish -- so they don’t necessarily trust me right off the bat that, you know, we have to earn that trust. But, for a lot of the kids, they know me, I know their parents now, and so I think they probably do feel a little bit more comfortable coming to talk to me. And some, I think, with our students who are newly arrived to the United States, because I speak Spanish and they speak Spanish and they don’t speak English, I think it’s probably out of desperation, maybe, that they come and see me because they don’t know who else to talk to and I’m a teacher that speaks Spanish. Being a woman, I do have girls who will come and talk to me; maybe they wouldn’t talk to anyone else.
LA: Yeah, and just to kind of clarify and give a little bit of a distinction, could you distinguish between some of the challenges that are specific to students who are immigrants themselves, maybe newcomers like you just mentioned, versus the challenges faced by students who maybe have parents or family members who are immigrants, but they themselves were born in the U.S.?
CB: Sure. I didn’t really know about that distinction until I really saw it in my classroom. About ten years ago when I was teaching an AP Spanish class, I had students who were born here, but their parents were immigrants -- Hispanic students -- and in the same class, I had Hispanic students who had just come to our country. And I was really shocked and surprised by the way that the students who were citizens treated the non-citizens. Not overtly rude, but it was almost like passive aggressive, the way that they treated them. So that was really my first eye-opener to, “Wow they don’t see them as equals” or “They don’t see them as part of them.” So over the years we really try to work with kids at our school to try to get the kids who were born here and see themselves as, although they may be of Mexican or Guatemalan descent, they see themselves as American-- how can we get them to help the students who are new to our school. And so that’s something that we work on. So those students that are new to our school oftentimes they only socialize with each other, so they’re only speaking Spanish. Oftentimes they don’t know how to navigate the school system, they don’t know how to use the computer, they don’t -- because they’re only talking with each other in Spanish -- it does take them longer to learn English. And one thing that’s good about our school is we have a lot of courses that are offered in Spanish. In some ways I think that’s bad because it doesn’t enable those students to get out with the other students and to meet other kids. So that’s something that I think we try to work on to help our kids, who are typically an ESL student, interact with other students in the building. The other thing is getting those students who are U.S. citizens to work with those kids who are newcomers, to make them see that, you know, “We’re all human,” and they’re not so far removed from that. The students who are citizens already have many more opportunities than the students who aren’t. I have students who maybe came here at three years old or four years old and don’t remember anything about Mexico, but they’re not citizens. They receive an education, just like everybody else, and then when they’re seniors in high school and they’re applying to college, it’s really hard for them, really difficult to realize that their friends sitting next to them can pay a thousand dollars to go to the local community college, and they’re going to have to pay eight thousand dollars. And it just doesn’t seem fair. And it’s not fair. So that’s one thing I see also between citizens and non-citizens.
LA: Yeah. And do you think that many people in Siler City, in North Carolina, are aware of that kind of distinction between youth who are immigrants themselves versus youth who are children of immigrants? Because I often see them lumped together in a lot of popular narratives, and so is that something that you’ve noticed?
CB: Definitely lumped together. If we’re talking about Siler City, in particular, the white or African American population who are established in Siler City, they often lump all of our immigrants together as Mexican, and they do not understand the difference between if a child is a citizen or not a citizen, the opportunities that are afforded to the child that can apply for FAFSA, for financial aid, for all the scholarships, as compared to the child who is just as smart and has worked just as hard in high school and they don’t have those opportunities. No, people definitely don’t see that. So it’s interesting, I think, as -- I’m not originally from North Carolina. Like I said, I’ve been here fifteen years, so as an outsider, it’s interesting for me to see other groups of people that have historically been disadvantaged, how they treat now these Hispanic people who are now disadvantaged. It’s an interesting thing for me to see as an outsider.
LA: Yeah. Could you just elaborate on that just a little bit more?
CB: Sure. In Siler City, for example, we have a charter school. And the charter school, historically, was for white families. And now we have a lot of African American families sending their students there because they don’t want to send them to the public school because we are sixty percent Hispanic. Whereas so many of our Hispanic students at school, they’re fantastic, they’re super smart, they’re great, they’re funny, they’re great kids, but there’s this view of, “Oh, we’re not going to send our kids there.” And so, again, as an outsider, I see it as, “Well wait a minute, that’s how you were treated years ago,” but people don’t see it that way. They see it as the charter school is providing more opportunities for their kids. But I definitely see that our Hispanic students, and Hispanic families, are treated as second-class citizens many times in Siler City.
LA: Yeah, thanks for kind of giving a little bit more detail about that. I think that’s really important, and--.
CB: I think--. Can I speak to that also about Chatham County?
LA: Yeah.
CB: Because in--. So in Chatham County we have two elementary schools that offer a dual-language program. So, in Siler City, we have many more Hispanic students in the program than we have white or African American. Not that we don’t have the kids to fill those seats. The parents aren’t sending their kids to the dual-language school. So, in Siler City, the majority of the students in the program are Hispanic. In the same county, just forty minutes away, right near Chapel Hill, we have another elementary school, North Chatham, and the predominantly white students go there, and we don’t have enough Hispanic students. So the interesting part is, that in North Chatham, those white parents value their children being bilingual, but in the same county -- which, we know those parents are predominantly from other places, they’re not from Chatham County originally. Whereas in the same county, in Siler City, the white and African American parents from Chatham County do not typically send their kids to the dual-language school. They do not value their children being with those other kids, and they do not value their children being bilingual. It’s very interesting.
LA: That is really interesting. And in your fifteen years, have you noticed any shift in that perception or has it kind of maintained?
CB: I think it’s gotten worse. I think for a while we had parents sending their children to Siler City Elementary. Now, that speaks to the administration that was at Siler City Elementary at the time. A local person who was the principal at Siler City Elementary, I think the parents valued that person’s opinion. But I think as time has gone on, we see more of them sending their children to the charter schools.
LA: Interesting. Yeah, that would be fascinating to do research about, and collect perspectives and kind of map those.
CB: If people would be honest with their perspectives, it would be very interesting, yes.
LA: This is kind of switching gears a little bit, but in your experience knowing some mixed-status families -- which for listeners who may not exactly know what mixed-status is, that’s when there are some family members who are documented and others who aren’t -- what are some of the additional responsibilities and challenges that U.S. citizen-born children take on to help their undocumented parents or family members.
CB: Yeah, or siblings.
LA: Or siblings.
CB: We’ve had families at our school that two siblings have been citizens and one or two have not been citizens, and that’s so hard, when one of the children gets into college and applies for financial aid, and can go on, and the other child cannot, although they’re super smart. One thing I see when the parents were not born here, but the children were, or the children were raised here from a young age, the children oftentimes act not only as a translator, but the children act as the go-between between the school, between the local government, between the doctor’s office, dentist office-- and that’s a big responsibility. It’s also-- language is a powerful tool. Many times, I’ve seen children who maybe don’t want to tell their parents everything that’s being translated. It may be an uncomfortable topic, or maybe that they don’t want their parents to know, or maybe even they’re not sure how to translate some of the conversation. So that puts a big stressor on the child. And again, we have families that, you know, children are told not to answer the door. Children are told, maybe, not to talk to police. Children are told not to divulge any information to teachers or to counselors. And so those children are keeping that all inside. And so, we see by the time that they get to high school a lot of these kids are treated as adults. I have a seventeen-year-old son. When I look at some of the things that some of my kids who are seventeen -- my Hispanic students who are seventeen -- the things, the responsibilities that they carry, whether its mental, physical, you know, helping the family financially, caring for all the children while the parents are at work, things that my child just doesn’t have an idea about. So, I think we see these kids come to school with--. Oh, and another thing, sometimes I’ll say to the kids, “Hey, can you come in tomorrow like quarter of eight?” “No, maestra, I have to take my little brother to school, and I have to take my cousin to school.” Especially if they were born here and can get a driver’s license, then the family really depends on them for the transportation of younger siblings, of parents to doctors’ appointments. Kids often miss school because they are the driver and the translator for family members to go to appointments.
LA: Right. Are many of the newcomers that arrive in Siler City, are they unaccompanied minors or do some come with family members, or what’s the breakdown there? And how are they maybe received differently depending on that?
CB: Okay, so just this year, I’ve had ten new students who have come across the border unaccompanied. And they have family members who live in Siler City. Maybe an uncle, a cousin. And some of them, I don’t even know how they’ve reached Siler City. I think crossing the border. I think COVID in their country was probably--. They were on their own. Crossing the border, I think was an adventure, coming to Siler City was an adventure, and now the United States Government says, “Well you have to go to school,” and it’s just kind of another adventure for them right now. They don’t really see the benefit in education. They’re almost in a limbo, some of these kids, because they’re living with one family member, they’re not living with their parents. They, definitely right now, in our community, they all hang together. Where our families that have been here for a generation don’t necessarily communicate with them so much. Does that make sense?
LA: Yes.
CB: They have their families, they have their jobs, their kids are in school. And then these newcomer students that we have, they’re still trying to figure out what the whole education system is, what our schedule is like, why do you have to go to four classes a day, why can’t you leave when you want to leave. Honestly, I think these kids have been on their own for a couple years, and now they’re saying, “We have to stay at school? We can’t just walk out? Well at our school, we can just walk out.” And so, it’s not only coming to the United States, it’s just the whole school culture that is really foreign to them. Right now, we have a lot of kids at our school trying to work through that.
LA: And what resources, maybe within the school or just the community, state, are available to those students who are trying to just understand the realities of living in Siler City, North Carolina after coming from a country far away?
CB: Right, right. So, within our school system, I think our school -- Chatham County Schools -- we try to work really hard to help those students. We have counselors, we have bilingual staff. From when you walk in the door of our schools that have dual-language programs -- and even, I think some of the other schools -- the minute you walk in, we have staff who are bilingual who greet you. We have counselors. If they don’t speak Spanish, we make sure that a translator is there. Same with our social workers. We have therapists that offer services to the students. We also have in Chatham County, in Siler City, in particular, we have Vínculo Hispano, which is a great resource for newcomers to help them just with the whole process of-- well anything. Anything that they might encounter, whether it’s government, doctor, whatever, Vínculo Hispano helps them with that. And I think, on the county level, also they really try to help give resources to Siler City. We also have I think in Siler City-- we also culturally try to really recognize the Hispanic culture and celebrate that. You know, whether it might be September 15th, and independence, or whether it’s Cinco de Mayo, or whatever it might be, I think that culture, we do try to celebrate that within Siler City.
LA: Yeah. So, I know we’ve talked quite a bit about the stressors and challenges faced by youth who are immigrants themselves or family members of immigrants. Could you talk a little bit about how these stressors and challenges affect students’ mental or physical health, and then, I know we just touched on the services available, but if you have any others to add that are related directly to mental or physical health--.
CB: Sure. I think particularly since COVID, I think one thing that I see in anxiety. I can speak of, right now, I have two students who are suffering from some anxiety issues, and I think it’s because they are working while attending school and trying to send money home to their families, and they’re teenage girls. And they’re in AP Spanish, and, you know, they have to do some homework, and I definitely try to limit the amount of work that I send home with my students, especially those that work outside of school because they really are trying to help support their families. And so that anxiety comes over into the classroom. You know, when I’m asking a student to write a timed essay on a topic that--. I think we do a good job at Jordan-Matthews offering classes in Spanish. I don’t know that we offer enough levels of the classes in Spanish. We have AP Spanish Language and Culture, we have AP Spanish Literature, we have Spanish for native speakers, we have a history class in Spanish. But what we’ve found right now is we need to start looking at some varying levels of these classes because we’re really just grouping all those kids together. “Oh, you speak Spanish? Oh, we’re going to put you in the history class,” but that’s causing some more anxiety because maybe they’ve never studied at that level before. And so yes, the class is being given in Spanish, but they don’t understand the process of having to take notes, or, you know, “Read a chapter for tomorrow and answer these questions.” So that’s adding another stressor to them. We do have an ESL Academy, which is pretty successful, but I almost think maybe we need to offer some varying levels of our Spanish classes so that students can be more successful, and they wouldn’t be so stressed for that.
LA: Right. Can you talk a little bit about the ESL Academy, and just kind of what that is and how that benefits students?
CB: Sure. So our ESL Academy really exists to help--. Because we’ve had so many students who are coming from a predominantly Spanish-speaking country, we’ve had a few students from other countries, but predominantly Spanish-speaking, we have so many students who are coming from Spanish-speaking countries that we just did not offer enough classes for them to assimilate into our school. So, they started this ESL Academy, is what it’s called, and at least two out of the four classes a day, the students are with the ESL teachers. Now, we offer one of those classes as physical education, so, you know, they’re outside running around and doing physical activity, but we have it within ESL Academy. Another class that we have within ESL Academy is, well, we have a few, whether it’s like reading and writing or public speaking, or whatever it might be. I think the students benefit because they do try to focus on English, but those students are together at least one or two classes a day so they can kind of touch base with each other. Now I think they touch base with each other in Spanish, but at least they get to see each other.
LA: Yeah. Let’s see, so--.
CB: Oh, services.
LA: Yeah.
CB: I’m sorry.
LA: No, it’s okay.
CB: I didn’t talk about the services.
LA: It’s okay, yeah, what services are available to these students that may be experiencing, like you said, anxiety in the classroom, or who’ve brought some other mental health concern to the teachers?
CB: Well, and even physical.
LA: Yeah.
CB: I had a student who, over the course of a couple days, I realized he had a terrible toothache, and I wasn’t quite sure what to do so I contacted the school nurse who kind of called around our town and found a dentist who said, “Oh yes, bring the student. Bring him in, let’s see how we can help him,” and ultimately the student needed a root canal, and this dentist just stepped forward and was like, “Let him pay what he can pay. Yes, this is another human being, and I’m going to help him as much as I can,” which really, I loved that because I was like, “Ok, yes, there are good people.” So, it’s kind of grassroots sometimes how we help our students. In terms of serviced offered right at school, like with our nurse, she’s fantastic, we had a student who needed glasses. The mom didn’t speak any English, but we got a translator who was able to go to the eye doctor with them right in our town, and the local Lion’s Club paid for the student’s classes. So there definitely are good people in our community who want to help our newcomers. At school, definitely I think the resources that are used the most are our--. We offer therapists, and our school counselors, and our social workers, and I think that they are probably utilized the most. And we have translators. We have two translators at school who sit in on those meetings and translate as necessary.
LA: Yeah, thanks for sharing about the services about the services. I really liked how you mentioned kind of the grassroots nature of sometimes how students are able to be helped as kind of like a joint effort between a lot of kind of random people--.
CB: How we get things done.
LA: Yeah. I don’t know if you have any more to expand on that, but if you do, I would love to hear a little bit more about that just--. You know, if a service doesn’t inherently exist, but you kind of can reach out to so-and-so or whatever to provide for student.
CB: Well, we had a student a few years ago, who came to me and she’s a DACA student, and she had applied to a scholarship specifically for DACA students, and she won a scholarship. There are a number of universities in the U.S. that offer free four-year degrees, a four-year education, for DACA students. And so, the school that she was awarded was at Christian Brothers University in Memphis, Tennessee. And so, she came to me, and she said -- and she really wasn’t excited -- and she said, “Well, I won the scholarship.” And I was like, “Oh my gosh!” I was acting crazy, “You won the scholarship!” And she said, “But it’s in Memphis, Tennessee,” and I said, “So?” And she said, “Maestra, how will I get to Memphis?” And I said, “We’re going to work it out.” So, what we did was, we packed up the car, her parents got in the car, we drove, she checked out the college, they had a fantastic program, we drove back, and ultimately, she went there, and she graduated with a four-year degree. So, she’s not our only student who has won the degree at Christian Brothers University. So, each time, I think the teacher support, and I think it’s kind of grassroots because the teachers that help these students who are undocumented or who have no idea about college, but we know that we can get them a scholarship--. You know, we’re still checking up on them after they go away to college. “Hey, how are you doing? What do you need? How can we help you?” So, I think definitely at Jordan-Matthews, there are a lot of teachers who understand the situation the students are in. Now there are some who are new, and they don’t. But the teachers -- there’s probably a good core of five or six teachers -- who understand that student situation, and they try to help however possible. Reach out to the community, reach out to local resources, to get that grassroots stuff done.
LA: Awesome. That’s really heartening to hear that there are people doing good work, even when it’s not necessarily in their job title. So, this kind of leads right into the next question. So, in your experience, were teachers and other support staff -- like counselors, therapists, school social workers -- are they prepared to help students with these specific stressors that are specifically for children who are immigrants themselves, whether documented or undocumented, and then who are children of immigrants?
CB: I think it’s like anything else. I think you have some teachers who really do want to figure out what’s going on with that child in their room, and where is this coming from. And I’m a big proponent--. I would like to do more home visits. I think that we could reach more parents doing home visits. But then there are some teachers who are like, “Whoa, no, I don’t want to go to their home. I just want to come do my job and go home at night.” And that’s all personality, you know, how people are. We have some teachers who, yes, they understand, and they want to know more about it, and then I think we have some teachers that don’t understand, and maybe--. And the interesting thing is, we have some teachers who are from other Spanish-speaking countries -- they’re visiting international teachers -- over the course of the years. Some of them really understand the plight of our immigrants, and some of them don’t, depending on what country they come from. So, one thing that we try to do, we do try to have informational sessions about, that we are a dual-language school, and that, “Information that you send home needs to be in both languages, or if you need to make a call home, let us know and we will translate for you so that you can communicate effectively with the parent.” So, I think being a dual-language school we do try to promote that more, making sure that communication is there, making sure that outreach is there, but there’s always more we could do. Definitely.
LA: And so, I know that you just said that being a dual-language school has helped in that there are more translators available and maybe an increased awareness of the struggle that a lot of these students face. Do you think that is unique to Jordan-Matthews primarily because it’s a dual-language school. In other words, is that awareness present in the other high schools in Chatham County that you’ve seen or is there less awareness in other schools that don’t have this immersion program?
CB: There is less awareness. I don’t think it’s due to the dual-language program. I think it’s due to the demographics. We were invited to another high school in the county, and the experience that my students had at that high school was eye-opening, that we are in the same county, and my students were treated like they were not equals. And it was all addressed, but I don’t think just being a dual-language school has to do with it. I think it’s the demographics of the school where you are, and the people that you have in the school.
LA: Do you see in Siler City, or in Chatham County more broadly, a stigmatization or kind of marginalization of your students and their families, and if so, how does that manifest and what is done about it?
CB: Sure. Language and economics are a powerful thing. It’s no secret that the families in Siler City don’t have much money, don’t have many resources. Would I like to see more resources in our schools? Always. Now, that being said, as the dual-language chairperson at Jordan-Matthews, Chatham County Schools has been great in our program. They really work with us. Just about anything I ask for, we get for our students. So, I think resources are really good. I do think that public perception--. How should I say this? Coming out of COVID and, I don’t want to be too political, I’m really not a political person, but I thought that I saw more negativity during the last presidential administration towards our immigrants. And so, coming out of COVID, I do think that there is a little more negativity towards immigrants as a whole, not only in our town, our county, our state, our country. And so that’s something that we’re always working on to try to break that stigma of, “Yes, our students at Jordan-Matthews might be majority Hispanic. They might be poor, but don’t try to tell me that they’re gang members, and don’t try to put on stereotypes that don’t exist.” So yes, I think that’s something that we’re always working for, to promote the excellent things happening at our school with our students to break stereotypes that people have.
LA: And what effect do those stereotypes have on students themselves? Is it something that they even think about or notice or is it something that they take really personally? Does it vary? What have you noticed?
CB: I notice it because as a white woman, there are white people in our community that think I share the same ideas that they do because I’m white. And so, people will make comments to me about, “All those Mexicans.” I’m like, “Well, actually, they’re from Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Colombia, Venezuela,” and then they kind of look at me, you know. So, are the students aware of the stigma? I think when they’re in our school, they’re maybe not necessarily aware of that, but when they go to other schools--. You know, there’s a brand-new high school on the other side of the county, and I think the kids do say, “Wow, why don’t we have this? Is it because we’re not as good?” And as a teacher you have to go, “No, that’s not why. No, you guys are awesome.” But I do think perceptions of--. And I don’t think it’s Chatham County, it’s not our Chatham County Schools, it’s not our local government, it’s more members of the community have negative perceptions about our kids. And so those are definitely stereotypes. We’re always trying to lift our kids up and remind them of how fantastic they are. And we’re trying to grow our own. We try to have Hispanic students who go off to college and maybe want to be teachers come back so that our students can see themselves reflected in the staff of our school. But that being said, obviously, I don’t look like my students, but I think they know that I support them to the very end, you know. But it would be nice if they could see themselves reflected in the community.
LA: Yeah, I love that you brought that up. What benefits do you think students receive from having a teacher who does reflect themselves. Like, I know that Jordan-Matthews has quote a few teachers who are native Spanish-speakers and are not originally from the United States, and so even if their countries of origin aren’t the same and their stories are very different, what benefits do students have from having those kinds of teachers.
CB: Sure. Just being able to relate to that person or just being able to say, “Hey that teacher not only looks like me, but is from another country.” Or, “that teacher had that experience like I did.” We definitely had some teachers who came here as immigrants and now they’re citizens. So, it makes it more possible also, like, “Hey, they did that so maybe I can do that.” I did have a conversation this year with one of my students, who is a senior, and I said to that student, it’s a female, and I said, “How do you feel about this topic? Do you feel bad sometimes that we don’t have more representation,” and she said, “Oh yeah, I would love to have teachers that look like me.” I mean, I love her. We get along great, but I apologized. I’m like, “I’m so sorry.” So that’s something that we have to work on as a country, I think. Valuing education, valuing teachers so that we get more diversity and more people going into education so then our students and our class can look up and go, “Hey, that person looks like me,” or “Hey, they did it so I can do it.” I think that is really important.
LA: Yeah, and that is definitely an issue way bigger than Siler City, Chatham County. Valuing teachers to encourage everyone to join the profession is a huge issue across the country.
CB: Yeah, as a mom of boys, I mean, I wish my kids had more male teachers. So, I can see where my Latino students, there is--. Now, that being said, I mean we have four, five, six teachers right now who are Latinos, but we have almost nine hundred students. We could have a whole bunch more.
LA: And what’s interesting is that some schools don’t even have four, five, six, you know. In this county, which is interesting. Speaking of teachers and school staff, what resources or trainings or really anything, do you think could better prepare them to work with students like the ones we’ve been talking about.
CB: Yeah, so I think a lot of the training that teachers go through when they have professional development, they feel like it’s not valuable or, “How can I use this in my classroom?” We had a student a few years ago who now has a full scholarship to Wake Forest University. She’s fantastic, and she actually came -- she was newly arrived, she was an ESL student, but she was passionate about the environment -- and she came and did a presentation to the faculty about starting a recycling program at school, how important recycling was, and she did it in English of a student who’d only been there a year. It was fantastic because she was so passionate about this topic, and all the teachers were like, “Wow, listening to this student, and she’s in ESL, and she’s really trying, she’s really--.” And that made that connection with that student with the faculty. So I think one thing that we need to do is just remind faculty members about where these students are from, what their backgrounds are, but that they are super smart and that they’re passionate about different topics, and things like that. Another thing I think that we have done well in the past and that we need to remember to do well, is a lot about language acquisition and, “How do students learn in in your English classes, and how can they take that learning, whether it’s in math or science or English or whatever class it is, and put it back into their own language?” Our teachers are spending a lot of time translating and trying to figure out how to best reach these kids whose first language is Spanish, who are newcomers. And I don’t think it’s just Siler City or Chatham County. I think across North Carolina, across the United States, we need to try to do more to help teachers with second-language acquisition with their students.
LA: Yeah. I guess this is kind of going back just a little bit, but what might make a student more or less likely to reach out to teachers or support services for help? You know, you talked about building the relationship between students and faculty and how that increases awareness and visibility, but are there other thing that make a student more likely or less likely to reach out to school staff for help if needed?
CB: Definitely our newcomer students are not going to reach out to people like me if they don’t know me. They see me as a white lady. They don’t know that I’m trying to help them. So, establishing the relationship with your students is so important. That’s why I think at Jordan-Matthews, it’s really good that the first people that they encounter, you know, they walk in the building and our two translators are both Hispanic, super nice, warm, inviting people, really try to get to know the kids, help them out, and so then they’re the translators for the guidance counselors. That kind of breaks the ice with that. So, I do know that a lot of those kids who’ve just come to our country, immediately go to our secretaries because they’re bilingual and they can help them out. So, building the relationships, it’s really important. And also, I think for the kids to see you in other roles. Maybe they see you helping a different Hispanic student in Spanish or maybe a topic that you talk about in class they think, “Oh, well maybe this person’s not the stereotypical white person.” But I think for our newcomers, having those people who speak Spanish is a game-changer for them. I think they’re the people that they relate to first.
LA: Right.
CB: Does that help?
LA: Yeah, that’s great. I think those are all the questions that I have. I have really enjoyed talking with you. Are there any parting thoughts? If not, I will go ahead and end it here.
CB: No, thank you for letting me participate. I appreciate it.
LA: Of course, it’s been awesome.
CB: Okay.
[00:43:34] END OF RECORDING
Transcribed by Lindley Andrew on April 20th, 2023
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-1013 -- Bredenberg, Cynthia.
Description
An account of the resource
Cindy Bredenberg discusses her experiences and observations as a Spanish teacher at Jordan-Matthews High School in Siler City, North Carolina. She shares about her school’s demographics and the school culture and reflects on her experiences working with students throughout her fifteen years working at Jordan-Matthews, many of whom Latinx. Cindy also describes the challenges faced by many of her students, specifically those related to financial strain, the lack of quality affordable housing, anxiety, and the impact of stigmatization by community members. She differentiates between the experiences of her U.S.-born students and those who have migrated to North Carolina from other countries, and she shares some challenges specific to her undocumented students, including the stress of financially providing for family members in their home country and lack of access to federal financial aid for higher education. Cindy also details the importance of relationship-building between teachers and students and explains how students are more likely to reach out to teachers and school staff for help if they have a previously established trusting relationship. She also describes the “grassroots” nature of helping students and shares some of the in-school and community-based resources available to students and those specifically targeted to help students newly arriving from other countries. Finally, she describes the rise of charter schools in Chatham County and shifts in school demographics.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-04-15
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29355">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
R1013_Audio.mp3
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/298ca38d2763a06b517a900848960d16.mp3
3e706a8db25c484f6d269afb52471448
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/b5bf15eab8a7e0044521de1d998d98bb.pdf
6110c9bd3c6f983f5da42b664f16b609
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-1011
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
Fecha
2023-04-21
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
García Rico, Yazmin.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Health services administrators
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1989
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Orizaba -- Veracruz -- México
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Graham -- Alamance County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-97.1046371459961 18.84562110900879),1989,1;POINT(-79.40039825439453 36.06760025024414),2002,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Velásquez, Daniel.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Yazmin García Rico is Director of Latinx and Hispanic Policy and Strategy at the North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services (NC DHHS). She recounts her activism during her tenure in college, helping Latinx youth navigate college enrollment and her outreach efforts to connect farmworker communities with healthcare and other resources. Thanks to the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals policy, Yazmin was able to continue helping farmworkers after college in various positions, and also earn a Master’s degree in social work at UNC-Chapel Hill. Yazmin expresses deep regret at her father’s passing from COVID-19 at a time before vaccines or treatments were available. She subsequently joined NC DHHS in her current role to coordinate vaccine distributions and address disparities in the pandemic’s impact on the state’s Latinx population. Yazmin’s journey is marked both by her own determination and the determination of others in her network to help open doors for her. In that vein, Yazmin emphasizes the need for support systems that can help uplift Latinx youth and address underrepresentation across state leadership.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Yazmin García Rico by Daniel Velásquez, 21 April 2023, R-1011, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29349
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Activism; COVID-19; DREAMers and DACA; Education; Social networks
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Administradores de servicios de salud
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Yazmin García Rico es Directora de Política y Estrategia Latinx en el Departamento de Salud y Servicios Humanos de Carolina del Norte (NC DHHS, por sus siglas en inglés). Cuenta sobre su activismo durante su estancia en la universidad, ayudando a jóvenes latinos a matricularse y sus esfuerzos de alcance (outreach) para conectar a las comunidades de trabajadores agrícolas con atención médica y otros recursos. Gracias a la Acción Diferida para los Llegados en la Infancia (DACA, por sus siglas en inglés), Yazmin pudo seguir ayudando a los trabajadores agrícolas después de la universidad en varios puestos, como también obtener una maestría en trabajo social de la UNC-Chapel Hill. Yazmin lamenta no haber podido ayudar a su padre en Veracruz, quien falleció de COVID-19 cuando ella trabajaba en un hospital del Condado de Alamance organizando la distribución de alimentos y recursos para combatir la pandemia. Posteriormente se incorporó al NC DHHS en su puesto actual para coordinar la distribución de vacunas y abordar las disparidades del impacto de la pandemia en la población latina del estado. La trayectoria de Yazmin está marcada tanto por su propia determinación como por la de otras personas de su red que le han ayudado a abrir puertas. En ese sentido, Yazmin enfatiza la necesidad de contar con sistemas de apoyo que puedan ayudar a impulsar a la juventud latina y a abordar la falta de representación en el liderazgo estatal.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Yazmin García Rico por Daniel Velásquez, 21 April 2023, R-1011, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Activismo; COVID-19; Educación; Movimiento de jóvenes 'Soñadores' y Acción Diferida; Redes sociales
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Daniel Velásquez: I'm Daniel Velasquez. Today is April 21st, 2023. I'm here today with Yazmin García Rico, who is Director of Latinx and Hispanic Policy and Strategy at the North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services. Yazmin, thank you so much for sitting with me today for your oral history.
Yazmin García Rico: Thank you so much for having me.
DV: Okay, Yazmin, let's get started with some basic information. Could you tell me about your personal background? Where were you born and raised and any early life experiences that you would like to share?
YGR: Yeah, so a little bit about myself. I was born in Orizaba, Veracruz, Mexico, which is, Veracruz is in the Gulf Coast, and I was there for the first few years of my life. Some of the experiences that are the most memorable are really the times that I spent with my grandparents who were very crucial in my upbringing. I really enjoyed spending time in their house, eating the food that my grandma used to make, and I am just really grateful for the time that I had with them. They both passed away when I was in the US, so I didn't get a chance to see them in the last couple years of their lives or last few years of their lives. So, it's something that I really cherish a lot. And I also remember a lot the train, for some reason, because the train was a very, sort of, central part of my life. My dad used to work for the railroad company of Mexico and so we used to travel in the train to see family. I could hear the train from my house, from my grandparents’ house, and so I think for me that reminds me even here now as an adult every time I hear the train I think of home, I think of my dad and really what I think he wanted us to learn from him which is work ethic and dedication to, you know, to whatever you're passionate about. So, Mexico, when I think of, you know, childhood, I think of Mexico. I think about my culture and in a completely different life in a way because everyone around me looked like me. And I think that really shaped me in a way that may be different for other people that don't have that same experience.
DV: Thank you. What brought you to the United States, and to North Carolina, specifically?
YGR: So, I think definitely it was to seek a better life, to have a little bit more stability financially and more opportunities in terms of an education. I remember thinking about maybe one day I'll grow up and I'll be able to work for the government, which was crazy to think about as a child. So, when it actually happened was it like, oh, you know, I did think that I probably was around 13, 12 when I had that idea. One of the ideas crossed my mind, I think I was like--. I watched a lot of movies and American shows and, I don't know what I watched at that moment but I remember thinking about growing up and doing a job that served in government, in that capacity. So that's the initial reason why I ended up in the United States, not really knowing the complexity and the, you know, challenges and how life would be. I only had movies as a, you know, baseline of what the United States was.
DV: Tell us about your education and any other formative experiences here in North Carolina. I know that you've held many internships and have been involved in various volunteer positions. And you probably have gained some leadership experience along the way, so tell us about all that.
YGR: Yeah, so this is for me a long journey. [Laughter]
DV: Okay.
YGR: For me, being able to get an education really has been a path that has taken a long time. I got to the US when I was about 13 years old and I started eighth grade. So the first couple years were really trying to get a sense of the school, the language, the culture. I had no idea what Thanksgiving was, Halloween, just different things that are the normal here that I didn't have awareness of. So I had to learn a lot about just the culture in the South too, if you add that layer. So, education was something that I was always interested in. I don't think it was ever a question for me if I was going to go to college. At that point I just didn't know how, but I knew I wanted to go to college. And so going through high school I think that was really when I developed a little bit more in my understanding of English and I still tried to grasp a sense of what everyone around me already knew and that I was trying to, you know, catch up with. I only knew about one school, one college, and that's because a friend of mine in high school who was three years older, I was a freshman he was a senior, he was also from Veracruz. He took the same classes that I was taking. He took French. He had the same math teachers, and he went to college. He was also undocumented at the time, so I just thought of like, okay, if he can do it and he has pretty much the same path, I can do it too. And so, I only applied to one college, which was Guilford College. And I applied there because my friend was there. He gave me a tour himself. He took me around. And, you know, thinking back, it's crazy because that was a time where not everyone had a computer. Everything was done, you had to print your application, you had to mail it, you had to call and see if they received it. You know, it was back in the day and so applying just to one college was really hard for me. It was you just felt this is an extensive, you know, sort of process getting those letters of recommendation, putting everything together to submit it to the school. And I was really grateful to have--there were two, three teachers in high school that were very supportive. My math teacher, I remember she encouraged me to take more challenging classes, like statistics. And if it wasn't for people like her that challenged me to take college prep classes and continue to push myself, I don't know that I would have had that support system that gave me the letters of recommendation and that sort of re-assured that I could do it, that I was capable. My English teacher, Mr. Ringwalt, he also went to Guilford, so he was knowledgeable with the college. He gave me that letter of recommendation. And so that was definitely--. Those years are really fun to think about because I would not--. I'm a shy person overall, but not knowing the language well can add a little pressure in terms of being nervous to speak. And so, I remember in the classroom I would never raise my hand to speak up, but I knew all the answers because I was studying really hard at home. And so, I remember one of my teachers from world history, he started telling everyone in the class that I got a hundred, it was like a hundred questions. And it was one of the final tests and I got them all right and he was telling everybody, how come just me who doesn't speak ever in class and who's still learning English, has every question right and a lot of you know the language and you still don't get it? So that was like, okay, thank you. But also, that you don't have to, you know, showcase me in front of everyone. So, I think he was fun.
DV: He was proud.
YGR: He was proud. He was highlighting, how dare you not do well. [Laughter]. And Yazmin, you know, who you know--. Everyone knew I was still learning English. I was not comfortable speaking up. The classes where I did the best were, like math--. Because I feel when I came to the U.S. my math, my level of knowledge in math was more advanced than everyone else, so for two, three years I was just, you know, going with the flow. I was not learning something new. I knew all the concepts and I knew how to do it because back in Mexico there were no calculators. Here you were given a calculator, literally was in the desk. And so I just knew how to do everything without relying, you know, on a device
DV: Wow.
YGR: So those were the classes where I--. Strategically I think it was helpful because I had friends who were Latino who, they were not good at math, but they spoke English. And so, I would be like, let me show you and help you but you help me in other classes so that's how I navigated eighth and ninth grade, I think. Just kind of exchanging the skill sets because for a lot of eighth grade--. I don't know how I passed ninth grade because I honestly didn't know anything but math. Somehow I ended up in high school and that's where I really dedicated a lot of time to watching movies and trying to learn English and really pushing myself to understand even if I wasn't able to speak fluently. So high school was definitely fun. I mean, challenges, you know, that age, that time, it's hard, bullying and stuff like that, but I feel like for me I was really focused on just trying to understand and trying to learn and trying to do well. And I think it was around, probably eleventh grade when I started to be more conscious of the barriers that I was going to be confronted with. Because I knew I wanted to go to college, I didn't know that it was going to be hard in terms of my immigration status being one of those barriers. That's when I started to hear a lot about out-of-state tuition for public universities for people who didn't have documents, and also not being able to obtain my driver's license. I went to the driver's ed class and by the end when I got my certificate is when that changed in North Carolina.
DV: Oh wow.
YGR: So, I was not able to get my driver's ed even though I went to the course just because by the time I finished is when things shifted.
DV: The rules changed.
YGR: And then there were other, sort of, institutions of higher education that were switching their policies of who could come to school. And maybe you could register but if someone else wanted to be in the class you would be kicked out and you would still have to pay out-of-state tuition or you would just not be welcome. So it was a lot of just--. It was hard. It was just hard to kind of think about where would I go. And so, meeting my friend who went to Guilford sort of opened up that one opportunity for me to think about, you know, he did it, I'm going to do it too. And somehow I made it to Guilford College. There was a program there called Bonner Scholars Program that provided scholarship support for low-income students that were interested in doing service, community service and service learning.
DV: What was the name of the program?
YGR: Bonner Scholars Program. And it's a national program, but not every school has it. That program at Guilford at the time was a four-year program where you started as a freshman and took a class and did service hours during the semester, did internship experiences during the summer, and all as a part of a cohort with your class, but also connecting to other Bonners from other classes. And I think for me, thinking back, I mean I've been aware of this for a long time that I was definitely one of--. A fortunate student that got that opportunity because not many students like myself at the time and even still now were able to have that opportunity. I think it was a combination of knowing certain people, like the program, that I got admitted to the school, my grades I guess, but also my dad helped me a lot because he was in Mexico, and he would support me financially as much as he could to be able to pay tuition.
DV: Wow.
YGR: So, the difference was that if I was to go to a public institution, I would have paid out-of-state tuition that can be like two, three times as much as the regular tuition. In Guilford College, being a private school, you get charged the same. You might not get as much help, but at least it's not more money than what you know already that you're going to get charged. And with the scholarships, we were able to piece it together. And Guilford was definitely, again, one of those shaping experiences for me because since I got to the school, I had a group of people that came along that I know had shared values in a way or shared goals of giving back to the community. And it was really cool because it was people from all over the world, from all over the United States but also all over the world. And getting to see how we're different, but we have very similar experiences, was really nice. I remember one of the trips we took which was our first-year experience summer trip, and we went to a Native American reservation for a couple weeks. And so, at that point I was undocumented, so I didn't have a driver's license. I didn't have anything but my Mexican passport and so I called my dad, and I told him that there's this trip that falls in my birthday and that I wanted to go and that, you know, there were risks because I would be flying. And he told me do you want to go, and I said yes. He's like, well, do it. So, I went on that trip pretty nervous because, I mean, I had a little fear of what could happen but thankfully everything went well. And I spent two weeks in that reservation. Some of my peers, I had peers from like Kenya and peers from different parts of Middle Eastern just like Europe and then U.S. So it was really neat to be in that space and get to know even more, like a diverse group. And I remember they asked us if we wanted to stay at a cabin or in one of the teepees. And a lot of us being international, what you would consider an international student or not an American student, we were like, we're not sleeping in the teepee. It's like, we've been there, you know, we've been already in conditions that may not be the most desirable, so we're like, no.
DV: We want to be comfortable.
YGR: Yes, we want to be comfortable. And so that was really funny to see that you just share experiences or just thinking with other peers that were trying to be more comfortable, not suffer more than we need to.
DV: What was the destination?
YGR: That was Montana.
DV: Okay.
YGR: So we were in Montana in a Native American reservation. We arrived to Billings and then drove out and everyone there in that reservation was really nice to me and to another Mexican student because we look alike. When I got to the reservation I was like, oh, is this--. It looked like people could be, you know, I could have been in Mexico because we look alike. And so, I definitely saw that treatment in a better way towards us and we got to cook for them pozole, also tacos, tacos dorados with buffalo meat. It was an interesting mix and just a really cool experience, and all that to say that, that program really shaped me because it kind of got us out of our comfort zone, got us to learn a lot about other cultures and about ways of connecting because we're people and finding those commonalities. That week when we were there, we didn't know that Obama was going to be at the reservation.
DV: Oh wow
YGR: This was when he was running for his campaign, the first time. And there were no phones, no clocks, nothing. We were like no technology, no TV. We were disconnected in the reservation, and we were told one morning after breakfast, get ready, we're going to go to this event. So, we got ready and left and it was Obama who was visiting the reservation and that was really neat. One of those really cool experiences. And then get to see him, you know, actually become president--. But going back to Bonner Scholars Program and Guilford College, I was highly involved in different activities that related to the Latino community, more specifically Latino youth or Latino students. I ran an after-school tutoring program called Latino Impact, and we went to McLeansville to a middle school and did tutoring of students. So I would have volunteers come with me and we helped with their homework. It was sixth graders for the most part, sixth, seventh, eighth graders. And then once a year, I helped to co-found a conference for Latino students called Soy Un Lider. So my fall semester, my first fall semester at Guilford, we co-founded a conference with a friend that went to high school with me. He was a senior, I was a freshman, and so he had this idea and sort of brought me on board to help co-found this one-day conference. And then he graduated, and so I felt I needed to keep it going. And we brought--.We started by bringing 150 to 200 students. And then it just grew from there every fall. And they had the experience of visiting the college, eating in the cafeteria, going to workshops, and the whole point was sharing with them information, resources that would help them to get to college, and hopefully not struggle as much as we did in not knowing what was even available or what options we had, and that was very geared towards undocumented and first-generation Latino students. And those experiences I feel like, it really gave me the ability to think through what is in our reach to push for change, what resources we have, and make the most with what you have. Because we were just, you know, college students. We would visit high schools and just talk to the administration and be like, we want to invite students. So little by little, we grew those relationships. We got school systems to provide their bus, the transportation for students to get to the conference. It was on a Saturday. We got funding from the school to pay for the breakfast and to give them gear, so it was just really cool to kind of give back in that sense. Even if it was one day, even if it was, you know, just a tiny piece of information. It was nice to see that hopefully they will hear something today that will have an impact in them. And I think for me the most favorite memory of that conference every year was coming into the cafeteria when they were eating lunch and just to see how many Latinos were in that space. And to see other students from campus walking in and just being like, who are these people? This is not the norm, right? A lot of us were one student who identifies Latino in the classroom; and so to be able to have that many people on campus and to see themselves there, but also to see other people acknowledge their presence, those are the moments that I live for in a way.
DV: So, you started it with your friend freshman year and then you continued it, until?
YGR: I continued every year until I graduated and it's still happening.
DV: Wow.
YGR: Like everything that, you know, they have up and downs in terms of leadership and support from school with administration change. And so that results in more resources or less resources that go into the conference, but it's still happening.
DV: That’s great.
YGR: And that just, you know, sort of uplifts my spirit because I know that at that moment we were focused on the Latino students. There are other students who also need that same support, like international students, refugees, asylees. And Greensboro has a large population of--. A really diverse population. So they also broadened a little bit the confidence to make sure that they were doing outreach to those students as well. So it is still happening, and it is one of those things that keeps me really close with the school, knowing that even after 10 plus years, it is still a need and there's still people who are willing to do that work. And other couple things that Guilford was, at that moment, the Latino club on campus was Hispanos Unidos de Guilford. And, you know, there's different ways that people identify themselves, so I use Latino a lot, Latina, Latinx, Hispanic. At that moment in time, from 2007 to 2011, Hispanic was the word that most people used. So, the club was Hispanos Unidos de Guilford. And we did a lot of activities throughout the year, celebrated Farm Work Awareness Week, celebrated Hispanic Heritage Month. I also was seen as an international student to Guilford because of my application. So I also did a little bit of the international club. So, I don't know, it felt like it was a small campus and had a lot of resources. And it gave me the ability to do different things and connect with different groups of students and bring them all together in a way. And so that was inspiring for me to see that, okay, people follow me. For some reason, people volunteer to help me. And it's what we need, right? We need groups of people who are excited about something. And for me, that was really energizing. And that conference, the Soy Un Lider Conference, is like I'm a leader. And sometimes, a lot of times, even students, even adults, we doubt ourselves of our abilities to do something. And I think for me, that learning lesson there was like, you might be the one leading or pushing but you need a group of people because one person cannot do it alone. And in leadership also looks different in a way. I might be a quiet leader right, but you can still do things in front of people, behind the scenes. So that's something that I really learned at that moment, and I try to remind myself because sometimes it's still hard. You know, imposter syndrome comes back, and you try to question, am I in the right place? Do I belong? Can I do this? So just thinking about that younger Yazmin who was able to do something, and people believed. And it had an impact. It helps me to move through. And you asked about internships.
DV: Right.
YGR: I did two internships that I recall more clearly. My first internship was at Student Action with Farmworkers and that was, again, an internship that my friend did. So, I was like he did it I'm going to go and do it. And he was--.
DV: The same friend?
YGR: Same friend
DV: Wow
YGR: Same friend. And so, he told me about the internship. As a Bonner Scholar, we were supposed to do an internship. And so, I worked in a clinic of Piedmont Health Services in Prospect Hill as a farm worker, outreach worker, doing outreach to farm worker camps. And so, we visited farms or like camps, we call it camps, which is the housing where farm workers live. It might be a trailer; it might be a big building that looks like a warehouse. And it can vary from like 3, 4, 5, 10 farm workers to like 150 or more farm workers. A lot of them come from Mexico and through the H-2A visa , and work in the fields for a time frame and go back home. And so, we would bring to them information around health, health education, we would take their blood pressure and talk to them about diabetes. And just trying to provide information and resources to them, connect them to the clinic if they needed an appointment, if they needed medicine. And that really, that internship is something that I feel really shaped me again because even if I grew up in Alamance County, I had no idea that just 40, 20, 30 minutes away there are farms and there's farm workers. And that a lot of them are actually from my home country and that looked like they could have been my dad, my grandpa, my granddad, or one of my siblings, or someone I know. And just to see the disparity in terms of access to healthcare, resources, and a lot of injustices that may happen because of their job. The different power dynamics that come into play. And that really got me into the sort of farm worker justice movement here
DV: It galvanized you.
YGR: Yes. In North Carolina.
DV: So this internship is happening while you're in college?
YGR: Summer yeah, a whole summer. So, during college I was doing the tutoring, I was doing the club on campus, and I was doing also the conference once a year. During the summer we had an internship, and it was--. This first one was a Student Action with Farmworkers, and this summer internship is called Into the Fields. And so it brings students from North Carolina and farmworker students from other parts of the country like Idaho, California, Texas, where there's other farm worker populations that at that time were bigger, and that--. Either it could be children of farm workers or even children that worked as farm workers at some point. So it was a really cool space because a lot of--. To be part of the internship, you had to speak Spanish. And so even those that were not Latino, like they spoke Spanish and liked the culture, and it was like a cohort, you know. Sort of a program where there's retreats, there's trainings, there is just different types of activities that help you feel more comfortable with who you are. And I think one of the things for me, too, is I didn't have a problem with being who I am because that's who I am. I grew up in Mexico, so I feel very grounded on my language and my culture, but I know other people who grow up here sometimes have a challenge because it's like, at home it's one culture and outside it's another culture so you're trying to grapple with who you are and what's okay because of the pressure. So I really got to see other students who were at the beginning a little shy to speak Spanish, or a little shy to say where they were coming from, or a little shy to dance, you know, bachata salsa whatever and then by the end they were this is who I am and like--.
DV: Embracing it.
YGR: Yeah, embracing their culture. So I loved being part of that experience and to also learn it's okay to be who I am in terms of the context of being an immigrant and having you know English as my second language, having an accent, like those things I think that those were the things that I got from the experience as well. And that having this bicultural, bilingual experience and a skill set also can contribute in different ways in the workplace, because at the end of the day we were increasing capacity for organizations that were doing this outreach. And this was at the time where there were no smartphones, so we would do outreach based on a map. We would pull a big map and then try to find the street where the camp was and then drive around the country and then try to figure out where this house is. And there would be notes like, you know, look at the tree in this intersection. A lot of farmworker housing is not like a regular housing that you can see from the road. It might be a dirt road that you have to go. And then, you know, it's kind of hidden from communities. So it's really crazy to think now that we just put something on the GPS, and it tells us, sometimes even shows you a picture of what it looks like, but back in the day, it was really pairing up with one more student, intern, or the supervisor and driving with them and figure out where the housing was. So I learned a lot and got to network a lot through that internship. I feel that led me to my second internship the following summer, which was at American Friends Service Committee, AFSC, which is a Quaker organization. And at the time it was based in Greensboro. And the director at the time of the immigrant rights program, she was also SAFista. And we call SAFista anyone who has done any SAF program, any Student Action with Farmworkers program. So she was a SAFista from back in the day, leading this program in immigrant rights and I applied for an internship there and got to learn more about the immigrant rights space like the advocacy happening at the time in general, advocacy for issues that we still face today like immigration reform, humane immigration reform, driver's license, tuition equity, all those issues that are still present. And I got to learn and be in the space and support those efforts during that summer. And that person, that director, really became one of the people, too, that became part of my support system. And I think that is what I'm really grateful for; that all throughout my journey I have found those people. Like I mentioned in high school, teachers, in my internships and in the different spaces that I was part of finding people that are going to be there for you no matter, you know, how you move in life through other spaces. She's been one of those people that has been job references for me, you know, one of those people that I call and try to ask at different points for her thoughts and feedback and that got to know me more during that time of my life. So those are the main internships that I think really took me in terms of helping me to develop my resume per se. So, by the time that I graduated, I had a lot of things. Like, I was, not just--.
DV: You were just busy.
YGR: I was busy, not just participating, but I was leading on campus and also participating in the internships. And I think that I'm grateful for that. I don't regret it. But looking back, I know that I was overcommitted. And I guess the weight that I was carrying, it was like, if I don't do it, who will do it because there were not a lot of Latino students on campus at the time. It was only a few of us. It was like three Mexican students, different classes, you know, Puerto Ricans, a couple. Some people that were adopted from Latin America and were trying to connect with their, you know, culture of the country where they were born, but there were not a lot of Latino students, so it just felt like I was trying to do it all.
DV: You felt like it was your responsibility, then?
YGR: Yes, yes, because I knew, and I was very aware that a lot of students that went to high school with me didn't make it to college. And it wasn't because they didn't want to, it was because it was not easy, or it was because they were discouraged very early on because they were told there is not going to be a way for you to do it even if you have documents. That's what really is really crazy, and I know it's still happening. If your family hasn't gone through higher ed, and if you're a person of color, if you're Latino, if you're a child of immigrants, a lot of times this system and people around it still kind of, don't see that in you or don't encourage that in you. Or even worse, like discourage you and tell you that's not an option. I know, I went to my counselor in high school, and they didn't know how to help me. There's no supports in many places still, or not enough for students. So, I definitely felt like I wanted to give back and that's why Soy Un Lider Conference focused on Alamance County, Guilford County, and Forsyth because it was sort of my hometown and surrounding counties where the conference took place. And that really sort of pushed me to do so much, which I think helped me in my professional sort of career path. But my senior year was really stressful because I was trying to graduate, fulfill my requirements. I was a business--. I was a French and business, sort of French major. Business was supposed to be my second major, but I ended up having to graduate. I think I ended up graduating with two minors in business and one more thing I don't even remember, oh my gosh. I had completed three minors, but they don't let you graduate with three minors. I had major in French and three minors in business related but I had to pick two, so I think it was business and business law. And the reason was, I was short one class to finish my major in business. But at that point I was like, I'm done, I don't need to, I didn't have the money, I didn't have the energy to come back and finish one more class to complete that business double, to have a double major. So, I was like, I'll just graduate. And I think it was just, I was so over committed and tired because I was also, towards the end, I tried to find ways to work to earn a little money so that I could still sort of be okay, because every year tuition goes up. And so, by the time I started I think it was like 10K a semester, no, 15K a semester. By the time I finished, it was way higher than that. So it was a lot of, sort of, pressure, and I was just ready to graduate. When I graduated I was still undocumented, so that year was hard, 2011 to 2012, because I had a degree and it was sort of--. I found myself in a place where a lot of people had sort of questioned, before, what are you going to do when you graduate and you still don't have documents to work. I heard that a lot during my time in college and that was hard because it's like you want to be motivated, you want to keep pushing, you want to show that you're doing the most with the opportunity, but that’s a real question that I tried to ignore because I didn't want to lose sight of my goal which was to graduate. And it was hard to kind of keep going that year just trying to figure out what am I going to do, and I knew that maybe I needed to go back to Mexico if I couldn't work here. And that's why I was going for business and French in college, because I wanted something that could maybe help me if I had to go back to my home country or end up going to a different country. I couldn't graduate with anthropology or sociology because my family would have been like what are you going to do with that, you know. What do you do with that degree in another country like Mexico. So, it was 2012, the summer of 2012 when President Obama announced the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals and that was the light that I was waiting for. That was the moment that I was preparing for. And so, I didn't doubt enrolling into the program as soon as it was an option. I remember I heard about it, I was so excited, started putting all my documents together, thinking through what they would be asking for. And as soon as the day came to be able to apply and submit an application, I was one of those first ones that I know of in my circle of friends. And I know a lot of people were fearful because, I mean, you know we don't trust the government a lot of times for various reasons, and so people were really fearful of coming forward. And then you know not knowing what really could happen once you did that. But I just felt like what am I going to lose, I don't have anything to loose. And so I applied, and I was going through that process, waiting to hear back, going to do my biometrics, my fingerprints and all that. And then I saw this job that opened up at the Student Action with Farmworkers, which was the first internship, the first organization that I interned for. And so, I was like, I'm going to apply. And so, I applied, and the position was National Organizer. And so I was going through the application process and waiting to hear back about DACA. And I went to two or three interviews, and I got a call on a Friday saying that I got the job and I was so happy. And I wanted to say yes but I still didn't have my work permit, so I asked for a couple days to think about it but I know I didn't have anything to think about. I wanted a job. I just wasn't ready.
DV: Were you giving yourself time to get those permits, maybe?
YGR: Yeah. And so, in that call I was like, oh yes, can I think about it and get back to you next week? And that weekend I got my work permit. It just felt like it was meant to be and everything lined up. So I got my work permit, I started working that December at Student Action with Farmworkers leading up to 2013. And that really opened up the doors for me in so many ways. Having DACA, being able to use--. Because a lot of jobs they don't ask you--. I mean they say preference in a degree on this, right? But they're looking at the education level, like bachelor's degree, master's degree, or whatever. And so, I had the degree, I had the experience, and I wanted to be able to do something, get a job that I was passionate about. And so DACA opened up that for me. And this organization means a lot to me because it was the first organization that opened the doors to give me an internship knowing my situation. Because I've always been pretty open about, you know, my situation and who I am, so it meant a lot for me that that was my first job. And I was there for about three, four years working in different roles as a national organizer, coordinating National Farmworker Awareness Week, doing a lot of the alumni engagement. Later became director of the youth program, so working with youth, farmworker youth, and really networking and connecting and supporting a lot of that farmworker advocacy movement in the state to improve the working and living conditions of the population. And during that time, it was towards my last year and a half working there, that I realized that I wanted to go back to school. And it was a combination of, started looking at people around me. Well, I knew I wanted to go back to school, but I didn't know for what. Because at that point, I only knew my one friend. [Laughter]. Going back to my one friend that had gone to Guilford from my high school, he went and did his MBA. And so, I knew that there was Master’s in business administration, but I was like, ah, I knew I did business in college, but that's not where my heart is. And so that was not what I wanted to do. I didn't know many people personally, you know friends, close friends or family that had a Master’s, but I started looking at everyone around me and trying to figure out what their degree was. People that I looked up to in the work. This was before LinkedIn. You couldn't just you know figure out what people's journey was. I started meeting with people for coffee. I ended up meeting with 15 or more social workers. And they were all doing different work, in farmworker-related, immigrant rights-related, just different type of work. And I was like, I want to be a social worker, because they're all doing work that I would love to be able to do, positions that I would love to have. And that's one of the reasons why I chose social work. And the other one is because I was working with the farmworker youth, and it was really working with them, their families, their siblings, their networks, because they would connect. They would know that there was a need, and they would refer people to me to try to find support and resources for them or just hear them out. And a lot of those concerns and just things that people were going through were really heavy and I didn't know how to deal with that. I couldn't go home and not think about it, or I couldn't get frustrated that there was nothing else that could be done to help them and so I knew that social work would give me a little bit more of that training on to figure out how you even help, and how do you respond, what's your role. How to push systems and how to continue to advocate for people in different ways, and that's when I ended up going to the school social work at UNC. That was a whole different journey. A whole different journey because I had been out of school for years. I still, I was DACAmented, as they say, and still had to pay out-of-state tuition if I wanted to go back to school. And it felt selfish to want to go back to school when there were a lot of people still that hadn't had the opportunity to even go to a community college or a college or university for a four-year degree, and I wanted more. So that kind of, I think I put those ideas on myself but it was just hard to kind of want more. And it was my support system, it was people around me that encouraged me to not give up and to find a way. And I met--. I had someone on Facebook that I thought it was the Facebook of this person that worked in the same building as me, and I did a lot of presentations and supported a class that happened for university students. So my support was really around farmworker information, presentations, and farmworker education for those students. So I had this person on Facebook, I thought it was this professor, but it really was that he shared that Facebook page with his wife. So it was the kids' Facebook page, and they both used it. They shared pictures of their children. So I posted something that like--. He knew that I wanted to go to school. I posted that I was trying to go to school, trying to find resources, scholarships and all that. And he connected me with his wife and said: I think you really want to talk to my wife, you should meet. She's also a social worker. And she wants to help you. And I didn't know that this whole time she had been--. She knew who I was because of Facebook, and so I met with her a weekend in this office, in her office, and we came up with a plan on how I was going to be able to go to grad school.
DV: Wow.
YGR: Like, who I needed to reach out to at the school, how I was going to try to pull in enough funding. And I walked away from her office with this big sheet of paper with everything on it and I really went on that path. I ended up having to fundraise for my education because there were not many scholarships for students like me. The ones that were available I applied out of the school, and I didn't get those. Very competitive national scholarships. And people like her and others connected me with people at the School of Social Work. Everyone at the School of Social Work knew that I was coming, who I was. There had seen emails about me, people advocating for me to be thought of for a scholarship support. It could be a little embarrassing. [Laughter]. You know, because people were like, this is just me and this is everything she's done, and she would be amazing, and these are the challenges that she has. So I think for me the most difficult part was to try to fundraise. And the moments that really were like--. That brought me a lot of joy. And just what surprised me a lot is people that didn't know me that supported me. Like people in my network spoke highly of me to their network and I got checks from people that I had never met. And some people didn't want me--. They wanted to be anonymous, they didn't need me to contact them and thank them and I was like I want to thank you, I want to know who you are. And people from my community, people from the community where I grew up also supported that.
DV: In Mexico?
YGR: Here.
DV: Oh, here.
YGR: Here in Alamance County. And so, to me it meant people believe in me, people are cheering for me, supporting me. And so I just went all in and fundraised for my whole grad school cost, and went into grad school trying to be the best student ever. Like read everything and do everything. I got to be an RA all throughout both years and the summer and learn from different professors. It was really one of those, again, life-changing experiences, because I never thought I would be able to be there. Even with DACA, even with a driver's license and a social security number, it's still a place that is not that accessible to DACAmented and undocumented students. So it felt surreal. And also hard because you're one of a few Latino students. There was, not that I knew of, any other student that was in the same situation that I was. And it's an institution at the end of the day, so there's things that could be better. We're always, as students, we're always challenging the system. We're always questioning, especially at the School of Social Work where in the code of ethics it's like social justice is one of those things that, you know, we care about. So it was interesting because I was sort of part of the advocacy but also working for professors and being an RA for the assistant dean, and you know. [Laughter]. Pushing here, but also this is my research assistantship and this is how I'm able to be in school. Because I was working for the school so that they could help me with my tuition, with part of the tuition, at least not pay out-of-state tuition, but pay it sort of the mid-level point through the funding that the research assistantship came with. So it was an incredible experience and I was able to do a couple internships there at the Hispanic Family Center through Catholic Charities in Raleigh. And then my final internship was an internship that I found on my own. It wasn't one listed. The list of internships, there was nothing that really spoke to me. And so I went to try to find an organization that had a social worker that could supervise me and that had the work that I wanted to do. And so I reached out to the American Civil Liberties Union who had two social workers. I knew one of them and I ended up being an intern there. And that's when DACA was rescinded. So it was when the Trump administration was trying to get rid of DACA and it was very fearful because DACA is what had opened the doors for me, it was the way that I could work for the school and finish grad school. And so I was in the middle trying to keep organizations informed, like support on that end, trying to support the advocacy efforts and be part of that work again, now as a grad student. Very nerve-wracking too because I felt like, I don't know, I just--. You just put ideas on yourself. I was--. The expectations are high on how I'm supposed to, you know, do the work because now I'm in grad school. I just felt it was I have to do my best and even better than, you know, two years ago because I'm a grad student and I put a lot of pressure on myself at that time. And I was able graduate from the School of Social Work and land on my first job. I applied for different things that felt sort of comparable, like going back to the farmworker space. I tried to get into philanthropy which didn't work at the time. I was seen as very young, not a lot of experience on that sort of area. And then I ended up being sort of recruited or encouraged to apply for a position at the hospital in town. And it was working under the supervision of the person that was really crucial in helping me come up with a plan on how I was going to get to grad school. That woman that I mentioned that brought me to her office, that I knew her husband, and so also social worker. And I ended up applying for jobs. I got a job in farmworker health and I declined that job and ended up coming to work for the hospital. And I actually, I don't know, it's full circle in a way because I got to work in the community where I grew up, got to learn, got to meet more people. And understand the dynamics that happen in the county between non-profits, hospital, health department, things that work, things that could be better, contributing in the ways that I could to make spaces more welcoming of Latinos. Or try to bring a little bit more awareness of why you might not be seeing Latinos and how you could improve in your outreach. And having the supervisor I had was an amazing experience because she was a leader that tried to uplift and to give you the tools you needed to do what needed to be done. And it was a little crazy when she said that she wasn't in the office much because she was covering a broader region and that she was going to give me her office. And I was like, what?! The office where I first met her to come up with a plan on how I was going to get to grad school. That's what it meant to me. I was like, the office with three windows, I'm getting that office? So that just felt like, oh my god, full circle. I can't believe that two years ago, two and a half years ago, I was sitting in this office not knowing that I was going to be able to go to grad school and not knowing that I was going to be able to, you know, move on in my career thanks to having a master's degree.
DV: Wow.
YGR: And that work in the hospital was really rewarding, was really hard, too, because it was coming--. It was putting me out of my comfort zone not being in the immigrant rights space, farmworker advocacy space where everyone is aware of the community needs or trying to serve or have that shared goal. It was more of just different people, right, with different jobs, serving the broader community, very mainstream in a way, where there were little to no Latinos in the spaces where I was moving. And so that was hard to navigate, but also rewarding to see little by little sort of the impact of just my presence or a comment or a question or my--. Or giving input. We were able to do a lot of programming to grow the programming for the Latino population in Alamance County, connect people to resources that were available for free or little cost like mammogram, you know, just information on pre-diabetes, like connecting people to different resources. And that's when the pandemic hit. And that's when we all shut down in terms of showing up to the office. And my supervisor being very supportive allowed me to do the work that I thought was needed, which was to support with basic needs to the community because people were staying home, losing their jobs or not being able to work, like not having food. It was just really like a chaos. And so I worked closely with the Dream Center in Burlington. Past Lisa had this idea of doing a food giveaway and trying to find meals and give it out to the community. And it was literally her family, my husband and I, and one more couple on the first day. And they bought food, they found funding, and I came up with ways to improve our system. I supported that day. We had cars coming through one end of the building going all around and we had a tent we were giving out the food it was very, like, the first day was a mess. It was good but it was like we were just trying to improve, and we served, I don't know if the first day we served like 120 families. I don't know, a crazy number of just cars that came by and we just gave them food and you know trying to have PPE on us and protect ourselves and protect others but give food. And that just grew and grew and grew and every week we were giving more and more food. So many people came along to help after that first day, we had nonprofits showing up, Elon University leadership, people from the city of Burlington, the mayor was out there, former mayor was there giving out food. And just different people came and helped and it just grew from giving this full menu that people can choose from American and Latino food and diapers and fruit and getting donations and giving out masks and giving out, you know, what we could. And it was definitely like--. Thursday was the day where even people that didn't know what was going on they would see the lines of cars and would come and get in line. They were like we don't know what's happening, but everybody's coming so we want to come and see. And it had a huge impact on nonprofits and organizations who had heard about Latinos, who had heard about the Dream Center, but really didn't come close yet, so they got to see the community and that was impactful too because a lot of times people may ask where are the Latinos, right? They're not coming, and we're here, we're part of the community. They're just busy working jobs that sometimes are not visible and they're keeping to themselves because it's what's comfortable and it's what feels safe. And the Dream Center became that sort of place that a lot of people start to recognize the habit trust in the community that was in the, in the part of town where we needed resources the most. And so, it was really neat to be able to give back during those times that were really difficult. That was before testing. Then testing came around and we coordinated, I helped to coordinate in the county different places for testing. We were going to the places in the community where we could see the higher rates or where we wouldn't, we didn't see rates because we also thought people were not being tested there. In rural parts of the county, different parts of the county, and it was free testing for anyone that wanted it in a drive-thru sort of way in collaboration with the health department. And so I was in that time when I got a call that my dad was feeling, was ill, was not doing well in Mexico, and had to go back to Mexico. And he had gotten COVID, it was July, and he didn't make it. So that was really hard because I was here, you know in the response and trying to provide what I could to the community and then my dad was home, not feeling well, not telling us for some days because, my dad. And I got to Mexico and by the time I got there he was at a hospital, and I was not able to go in. I was not able to see him. And that just was so hard for my family and for myself. And a lot to kind of deal with and process in that sort of very scary way of you not being able to be there for your loved one, you not being able to even do the proper traditional way of a funeral. Or doing the things that we usually would do for the people we love. And so that 2020 was definitely a rough year for me and then coming back to--. Having to come back and go back to work and still processing that for a long time. And my husband was running for office, too, at that time, so it was a lot to kind of grieve for my dad, be strong for family, and support my husband as he was running his first campaign for office. And that fall is when, I was supposed to become a citizen in March, but it happened that the pandemic got here and everything got shut down, so it got pushed to October, and I was able to become a citizen in October. And that was sort of, one of the first sort of big painful moments because it was one of the first few life milestones that I wasn't able to call my dad and tell him. And I remember that being really hard just because it's a moment that I should be happy but it was, you know--. When he, when someone you love is no longer a part of your life, it's really hard to kind of figure out the thing that I would do is not something that I can do anymore. But I guess the little happiness or the little sort of moment that brought comfort was knowing that, I feel like I know that he's with me, you know, in different ways now and that he would be happy for me. And also, that same day, because of the pandemic, it was very weird citizenship ceremony where it was three of us in this huge room and nobody else could come into the building. They asked the questions. They did my interview, my final interview, and then right away put us in this room for the oath. So I did everything in one day instead of doing two parts as usually the process would be, and then I got out of there and drove directly to early voting. It was the last day of early voting, and so I registered to vote during early voting before it closed, and I voted for my husband. And I was like, I cannot believe that this is happening and then drive straight to the library to request my passport because I was like, there's no going back, they can't take this away from me. I'm going to do everything I need to do--.
DV: Yeah, you made it.
YGR: To get this, you know, to get to this point. So it was a full day of, you know, just--. I feel like I was running, before anybody changed their mind, to do what I needed to do. So 2020 was definitely bittersweet in many ways, for many of us, but definitely very high highs and very low lows. And then that fall I got a call from a friend that said, do you want to do the work that you're doing at the county level but at the state? And I was like, no, I got enough with my county. There's plenty of work to do here and I'm doing all I can. And I was like, still doing the work with the hospital, canvassing. Well we were starting to do lid drops, not canvassing, that fall, and just juggling everything and grieving. And it was probably a month later that I saw the job description for the job that I have now and I fell in love with it because it was the focus on the Latino community, it was really working at a systems level. It felt that every part of my journey was leading me to this job, from a personal, to a professional, to an educational experience. And so, I put my name in the hat. I applied, went through three interviews and was waiting to hear back and left to Mexico to see family. It was probably between November and December. I think it was like November, December.
DV: Still 2020?
YGR: In 2020. November December of 2020. I applied around September, October and then it was November, December, I was in Mexico riding a taxi with my husband. An old taxi, it was an old car, you could hear the engine, one of those cars. And so, I got a call from who would be my supervisor and I was in this car and the engine you could hear the eeeeh, and I was like this is embarrassing but I have to talk to her. So my husband try to tell the taxi driver to pull to the side because literally the sound was horrible and so he pulled over. And then she gave me the job offer and she said that, you know, congratulations you got the job. Gave me a little bit of information and said that I could review the documents that were coming to my email and then get back to them. And so that moment is very memorable because I was in Mexico, you know, the place where I was born, the city where I was born. And then getting to--. I'm getting to hear that I got a job working in the government in this place that I went to for better life and better opportunities, in a taxi with this horrible noise. And so that was really the moment that, you know, sort of shaped what was to come for the next two-plus years now. Came back, started working in January and it was really hard for many months working about 15 hours every day non-stop, no weekends, no evenings. Really being part of that early, since the very early stage of vaccine distribution, COVID-19 vaccine distribution in the state and prevention work. And having the weight of knowing that the Latino population was disproportionately impacted by COVID, and knowing that farmworkers were impacted, that meat-processing plant workers were impacted, just frontline workers who for the most part were Latino, were impacted and trying to do all I could to be part of that response. So it was a lot.
DV: What had happened with your dad, did you have that in your mind also when you went through that work?
YGR: Yes, yes and I was trying, you know, had a lot of--. I did seek therapy that didn't work. Didn't work, the therapist that I found was not a good fit and I was like, I'm wasting my time and I didn't have time to look for another therapist, but I had friends and people that were there for me. I know that it's hard, when you have a friend that is going through that you sometimes don't know how to act, you don't know what to say, you don't know how to support. But I did have people that were there for me and talked to me, you know, said: why are you doing this? Are you doing this for your dad? Also, don't feel like you have to sacrifice or like--. Not sacrifice yourself, but put yourself in a place where it's also painful because it's a reminder, right? And so I thought it through, and I know that part of me was trying to prevent the suffering of other families, and I do all I can to be part of that response because I know it was real. A lot of people were like, COVID is not real. And I was like, COVID is real. COVID is the reason why my dad is no longer here. And I think for me it was a part of giving back and trying to alleviate the situation as much as possible, or contribute to or control the pandemic, or prevent the spread. But also because I think this is my life's work. I never think about, in my path, in my career, it's never been about a position and a title, it's been about the work. What about this role will speak to me and will make a difference to the community that I care about? And that is sort of what drives me. And that's what really drove me to this job, looking at the job description and the possibilities, knowing that it was going to be really, really hard, knowing that I was going to end up working within an institution that was being held accountable by the advocacy groups that I was part of in previous roles. So it was a lot of--. It was really hard emotionally to navigate that because now I'm part of the system, right? And so being that bridge builder but also at times taking it all, and trying to help with solutions. But at the end of the day, now I'm the face or I became the face during those moments of what was not right, or what could be better and needed to be better with the same people that I was colleagues, you know, for a long time in the movement. So that was a hard shift and trying to--. I knew that I am here to improve the strategies, the initiatives, to make sure that we have a lens of the community, to look at policies and interventions and ways that we can be better. In that moment, it was specific to COVID-19, but also kind of showing people, feeling that I had to show people that I'm still me and I'm still here for the right reasons, even though I'm not part of the outside advocacy. So that was shift, it was the first time that I found myself in that sort of dynamic scenario. And it's been a really rewarding experience. It's been hard. It's been an adjustment, learning how government works. And it's also, for me, I'm really grateful to have been part of that team that was part of COVID-19 response at the state level because I saw that everybody was working nonstop and giving their all. And they had been there since the beginning, like the prior year when I was at the county level. So, the county-level work was hard physically because we were doing the food distribution, mentally, emotionally, but it was not the level of pressure at the state that I came to in 2021, and that I had to kind of, to do that work. And I think the other thing that has been rewarding there is to try to shape my job because it was the first time that this position was created, so there was not before anybody in this role. So try to establish myself and show people that I'm about collaboration, I'm about improving the work together. It is a system, it's huge. There's different things that could be better and trying to focus on what can we actually accomplish in the time that we have. And also I've gotten to work with students who are getting their Master’s of Social Work so now I get to, by this point I've had three students, supervised three students, that are becoming social workers who are Latina, who are bicultural with different life experiences, who have been in North Carolina, either were born here, grew up here, have been here for some time. And so that feels to me that is a part--. I've identified that that is a part that is important to me. Even if it's middle school, which is our ( ) age, high school, youth, just making sure that we're still working on that pipeline. Because this work is hard, and we need more people. I don't know why I'm getting emotional.
DV: It's okay.
YGR: I think it's--. What feels heavy a lot of times is that one person cannot change everything and many people are that one person in their space. And it's not fair to them, to the community, to the people. That we need more representation and I think that's what this pandemic really--. I hope that it's the lesson learned for everyone around that we can't wait for a global pandemic to realize that we're not representing the communities that we serve, that we don't have that representation for many systematic reasons, but also it's not the fault of people. From the education system to immigration system, to different systems at play that are not letting people move on to opportunities and be in those spaces. And from policies and practices that come into play, you know, who is being hired, who's given a chance, who's given a scholarship, looking at population, like do we have enough people at the table to be part of the solutions, to serve, so that people feel comfortable. I think that is the work ahead of ourselves. Right now, as we're coming out of this pandemic and everything is kind of going back to normal: not losing sight of what we learned, what was hard, and what we need to continue to implement that was done during COVID in, some shape or form, and continue to make it better. So I think that's what's on my mind a lot these days. Because I tell people, I did feel the pressure of people saying, oh you're the Latina doing all this work, but I'm like, I don't speak for all the Latino population. The Latino population is not monolithic. It's very diverse in so many ways. And I bring perspectives, I bring information, I bring research, I inform. And also, it should be more than one person. All throughout organizations, it should be that way, that people are either aware, knowledgeable, or they are representing the demographics that North Carolina is now. Because it's not like when I first went to high school, that I was the only Latina, you know, in my classroom. Now looking at Alamance County and seeing different schools that have sometimes even 40% Latino, and I could not dream of that when I was growing up. That was something that I didn't experience, right? So we need to make sure that we are setting those infrastructures in place to support the population, especially because--. I mean, I think North Carolina has grew a lot over the last 20 years in terms of demographics in the Latino population and our Latino population right now is still relatively young, but we're going to age and those systems need to be in place to be able to support the community. And so, this pandemic could have been worse in terms of death rates if we had been an older population. And we're not done confronting health disparities, chronic illnesses and everything that's to come.
DV: So that's what's on your mind for now in your current role?
YGR: Yes.
DV: So, considering all of these experiences, Yazmin, what would you say were the main factors that helped you along the way, that shaped the leadership that you have exhibited and continue to exhibit in your role?
YGR: I would say, I don't know. This is a hard one because I think there's definitely people, there's things that I've mentioned, like the people that have been part of my support system. The opportunities that I got that I know that not many people in my time, that share similar experiences, had. I think that, I don't know the word in English, sometimes this one goes away, but like, soy necia. I get into an idea, like I get like--. I think about this is what I want to do, and I just go for it. No matter if people are telling me, you're crazy, that's not doable, why, that's too much this, too much that, I just focus and go and do it. And in a way, I think it can be bad in different ways, you know. But in this case, just setting my mind to something has helped me, even when things were hard. And really having that support system: being family, being friends, being my husband, who believe in me and continue to encourage me and push me to do what I need to do, has been important. And we all have, you know, ups and downs, like there's definitely times and days where it's hard and I think about the why, right? I think about how I started, where I am, where were the possibilities. Knowing that the possibilities are endless, and we just have to keep pushing and that's something that I tell other young people. You never know, you can't just give up because you never know the opportunities that will come later and that's what happened for me. I went to school, to college not knowing that DACA was going to be a thing. And then I got DACA and then I pushed to try to go to grad school not knowing that I was actually going to be able to finish. And I never thought I would be able to become a citizen so you never know the path but you only do, you can only do what's in your control and that's what sort of keeps pushing me. I'm not able to fix everything but what's in my reach, I'll try to do. And it's the people that I've had, the motivation, the sacrifices of my family like my grandparents. For many, many years, my grandparents were in my mind a lot because I know sort of the challenges that they faced, the humble beginnings that they had, how they did all they could for their children. Now, with everything that I've gone through, my dad is on my mind a lot because I know how hard he worked, how much he supported me, how much he cared. His own way he showed us that he loved us. He was not very--.
DV: Affectionate.
YGR: Affectionate, but he showed us in his own ways, and he worked really hard. He was well respected in his job. Dedicated. For him, his job was like life, which sometimes can be bad, and I try to walk myself back when I am getting to that sort of mindset. There's more to life than just work. There’re other things. But I think for me, my job is also sort of my way of being a productive member of society and giving back and making--. Doing my best to make things a little better if even if it's in a small way. That's what sort of drives me. People that I love that I look up to or that were an important part of my life, and of course my mother, who is, who has been an amazing force for me. Yeah, just like thinking about people who have been there for me and what I can do for others. I think that's sort of what has helped me along the way. And I do want to believe that there's a God that has looked out for me because I would not be here in many ways. Just being an immigrant, you know, going through different experiences, something could have happened to me at different parts of my life to derail me from the path. Or to not even be alive, you know. Different kinds of ways. So, I am definitely grateful for that. And what motivates me a lot too, is that I'm not the only one. This is my story and is unique. But there's many stories like mine, and now we're getting to see more and more and more of that. And that really motivates me because during the time that I was sort of growing up and going to college and stuff like that, people would not talk about their experience or they would protect it, which it's so understandable. But now we have more and more people talking about it, bringing awareness, and pushing and advocating, and we're still in the same spot. DACA has been challenged. You know, new people, people who are coming of age cannot apply for DACA even if they qualify. There are no new applications that are being received. So we're not in a better place, even if many, many years have passed. Out of state tuition is still, you know, an issue. Access to driver's license for people is still an issue, immigration reform. So we are not where we need to be, but there's more people coming in and being part of that fight, and that is very motivating.
DV: Speaking of motivation and to conclude our interview, and you've already mentioned a little bit about future leaders, but thinking of all of your experiences, what advice would you give future Latino leaders so that perhaps you're not the only one in the space?
YGR: I think I would highlight unity and common goals. Like I mentioned, the Latino population, Latinx Hispanic population is very diverse in many ways. Immigration experience or, you know, maybe growing up here, generationally, too. We're so diverse. And I think what I would sort of highlight for leaders is the importance of working together and the importance of supporting each other and also the understanding that leadership looks different. And we need all kinds of leadership, and we need all kinds of strategies and advocacy, because I really see this as an ecosystem where different things are happening, and they build on each other and they help each other. And as the leadership grows and as the movement continues to, sort of, expand, I think as a community we got to work together and respect each other and make space for different voices. And I'm thinking very specific about the younger sort of age groups, that we all were young at one point, and we all thought that we could change the world at one point. And we need those mindsets because it is tiring. This journey is tiring. Someone texted me: the struggle is forever, after something happened and now it's like, yes, it's so real, the struggle is forever. We have to take care of each other. We have to take care of ourselves. We have to respect the different ways that people go about strategizing and, you know, fighting maybe within the system, maybe outside of the system, maybe in different ways, but we're not the enemy. Each other, we're not the enemy. We're just trying to move, work alone, and so I think it's important for us to keep that in mind and bring others along into the different spaces. If you have the opportunity to support other people, what better way than to, you know, take advantage of that? And also, if you have been in the space for a long time, hear from other voices and hear about what they're saying and make room in the space that you are to, like, have those people sit at the table. Because I feel that's something definitely that I have seen a lot in our state in terms of dynamics that happen, and that is not really doing us any good. It's actually taking away from the work that should be done. And just to not give up. I mean, I feel everyone's experience and everyone's journey is valid. We need to just sort of embrace each other. That is sort of what I feel I learned at Guilford when I was in the Hispanos Unidos de Guilford. We came together and we were all different, Latinos with different experiences from different walks of life, different countries, and just reassuring: yes, you are here, and you matter, and you are Latino no matter what. Who can, like, nobody can question that. No matter if you speak Spanish or not, no matter if you know how to salsa or not. There is no checklist of this is who you are as a Latino, and this is what makes you a leader. We all have different types of ways that we identify ourselves, different ways that we connect to our culture, different ways that we bring leadership to spaces. And I think because sometimes being the only one, or one of the only ones, that imposter syndrome can come, no matter how long you've been in the work, it’s really helpful when you have that support system and that little group or that person that understands you and supports you. And you can be that to someone else. And I think sharing our experiences and sharing the struggles can also help because you never know who can identify with you and who will hear that and make an impact. Just like my one friend [laughter] who I have followed all throughout. We're actually neighbors right now. We live really around the corner.
DV: Wow.
YGR: But one, one person--. I learned this recently. I spoke at a women's march when Women's March was a thing. I forgot what year, but I spoke at a women's march and there was someone in the audience that what I said resonated with her. Also undocumented, with similar experiences, trying to figure out how to make it to higher education. I was at grad school at the time. And recently she attended a conference and talked to someone else I know. And the question was, what was a time or who was someone that inspired you or something? And she talked about me, and she said, I went to these Women's March, and I heard this speaker that shared different things that I connected with, and that resonated with me. And my friend knew that I spoke to that, in that march, and so she was like, was this her? [Laughter]. And, and, you know, it's like, what?! That was years ago. And I was so scared to speak up and I was so scared to share my story. No matter how open I have been it's always, you know, nerve wracking in front of hundreds of people. And knowing that I said something that this young person was impacted by, and now she is incredible. She is an incredible advocate, doing a lot of advocacies and lobbying at the state level for immigrant rights. I'm inspired by her. But it's just funny to see how we have different points, and you never know when you say something, that person might be needing to hear those words. And she connected with that. So I wanted to cry when that was like, what? She, you know, Women's March--. And she's doing this incredible work and something I said inspired her to keep going. So I think that would be my one last sort of advice to others. You never know who you're impacting, so make sure that you're sharing your experiences with others.
DV: Well, thank you very much for sharing your journey and your story with us today. And your wisdom. Thank you very much.
YGR: Thank you.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Transcribers: Sofia Godoy & Daniel Velásquez
Interview Date: 2023 April 21
Date of Transcription: 2023 July 25. Revisions: 2023 31 August
Es: Transcripción
Daniel Velásquez: I'm Daniel Velasquez. Today is April 21st, 2023. I'm here today with Yazmin García Rico, who is Director of Latinx and Hispanic Policy and Strategy at the North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services. Yazmin, thank you so much for sitting with me today for your oral history.
Yazmin García Rico: Thank you so much for having me.
DV: Okay, Yazmin, let's get started with some basic information. Could you tell me about your personal background? Where were you born and raised and any early life experiences that you would like to share?
YGR: Yeah, so a little bit about myself. I was born in Orizaba, Veracruz, Mexico, which is, Veracruz is in the Gulf Coast, and I was there for the first few years of my life. Some of the experiences that are the most memorable are really the times that I spent with my grandparents who were very crucial in my upbringing. I really enjoyed spending time in their house, eating the food that my grandma used to make, and I am just really grateful for the time that I had with them. They both passed away when I was in the US, so I didn't get a chance to see them in the last couple years of their lives or last few years of their lives. So, it's something that I really cherish a lot. And I also remember a lot the train, for some reason, because the train was a very, sort of, central part of my life. My dad used to work for the railroad company of Mexico and so we used to travel in the train to see family. I could hear the train from my house, from my grandparents’ house, and so I think for me that reminds me even here now as an adult every time I hear the train I think of home, I think of my dad and really what I think he wanted us to learn from him which is work ethic and dedication to, you know, to whatever you're passionate about. So, Mexico, when I think of, you know, childhood, I think of Mexico. I think about my culture and in a completely different life in a way because everyone around me looked like me. And I think that really shaped me in a way that may be different for other people that don't have that same experience.
DV: Thank you. What brought you to the United States, and to North Carolina, specifically?
YGR: So, I think definitely it was to seek a better life, to have a little bit more stability financially and more opportunities in terms of an education. I remember thinking about maybe one day I'll grow up and I'll be able to work for the government, which was crazy to think about as a child. So, when it actually happened was it like, oh, you know, I did think that I probably was around 13, 12 when I had that idea. One of the ideas crossed my mind, I think I was like--. I watched a lot of movies and American shows and, I don't know what I watched at that moment but I remember thinking about growing up and doing a job that served in government, in that capacity. So that's the initial reason why I ended up in the United States, not really knowing the complexity and the, you know, challenges and how life would be. I only had movies as a, you know, baseline of what the United States was.
DV: Tell us about your education and any other formative experiences here in North Carolina. I know that you've held many internships and have been involved in various volunteer positions. And you probably have gained some leadership experience along the way, so tell us about all that.
YGR: Yeah, so this is for me a long journey. [Laughter]
DV: Okay.
YGR: For me, being able to get an education really has been a path that has taken a long time. I got to the US when I was about 13 years old and I started eighth grade. So the first couple years were really trying to get a sense of the school, the language, the culture. I had no idea what Thanksgiving was, Halloween, just different things that are the normal here that I didn't have awareness of. So I had to learn a lot about just the culture in the South too, if you add that layer. So, education was something that I was always interested in. I don't think it was ever a question for me if I was going to go to college. At that point I just didn't know how, but I knew I wanted to go to college. And so going through high school I think that was really when I developed a little bit more in my understanding of English and I still tried to grasp a sense of what everyone around me already knew and that I was trying to, you know, catch up with. I only knew about one school, one college, and that's because a friend of mine in high school who was three years older, I was a freshman he was a senior, he was also from Veracruz. He took the same classes that I was taking. He took French. He had the same math teachers, and he went to college. He was also undocumented at the time, so I just thought of like, okay, if he can do it and he has pretty much the same path, I can do it too. And so, I only applied to one college, which was Guilford College. And I applied there because my friend was there. He gave me a tour himself. He took me around. And, you know, thinking back, it's crazy because that was a time where not everyone had a computer. Everything was done, you had to print your application, you had to mail it, you had to call and see if they received it. You know, it was back in the day and so applying just to one college was really hard for me. It was you just felt this is an extensive, you know, sort of process getting those letters of recommendation, putting everything together to submit it to the school. And I was really grateful to have--there were two, three teachers in high school that were very supportive. My math teacher, I remember she encouraged me to take more challenging classes, like statistics. And if it wasn't for people like her that challenged me to take college prep classes and continue to push myself, I don't know that I would have had that support system that gave me the letters of recommendation and that sort of re-assured that I could do it, that I was capable. My English teacher, Mr. Ringwalt, he also went to Guilford, so he was knowledgeable with the college. He gave me that letter of recommendation. And so that was definitely--. Those years are really fun to think about because I would not--. I'm a shy person overall, but not knowing the language well can add a little pressure in terms of being nervous to speak. And so, I remember in the classroom I would never raise my hand to speak up, but I knew all the answers because I was studying really hard at home. And so, I remember one of my teachers from world history, he started telling everyone in the class that I got a hundred, it was like a hundred questions. And it was one of the final tests and I got them all right and he was telling everybody, how come just me who doesn't speak ever in class and who's still learning English, has every question right and a lot of you know the language and you still don't get it? So that was like, okay, thank you. But also, that you don't have to, you know, showcase me in front of everyone. So, I think he was fun.
DV: He was proud.
YGR: He was proud. He was highlighting, how dare you not do well. [Laughter]. And Yazmin, you know, who you know--. Everyone knew I was still learning English. I was not comfortable speaking up. The classes where I did the best were, like math--. Because I feel when I came to the U.S. my math, my level of knowledge in math was more advanced than everyone else, so for two, three years I was just, you know, going with the flow. I was not learning something new. I knew all the concepts and I knew how to do it because back in Mexico there were no calculators. Here you were given a calculator, literally was in the desk. And so I just knew how to do everything without relying, you know, on a device
DV: Wow.
YGR: So those were the classes where I--. Strategically I think it was helpful because I had friends who were Latino who, they were not good at math, but they spoke English. And so, I would be like, let me show you and help you but you help me in other classes so that's how I navigated eighth and ninth grade, I think. Just kind of exchanging the skill sets because for a lot of eighth grade--. I don't know how I passed ninth grade because I honestly didn't know anything but math. Somehow I ended up in high school and that's where I really dedicated a lot of time to watching movies and trying to learn English and really pushing myself to understand even if I wasn't able to speak fluently. So high school was definitely fun. I mean, challenges, you know, that age, that time, it's hard, bullying and stuff like that, but I feel like for me I was really focused on just trying to understand and trying to learn and trying to do well. And I think it was around, probably eleventh grade when I started to be more conscious of the barriers that I was going to be confronted with. Because I knew I wanted to go to college, I didn't know that it was going to be hard in terms of my immigration status being one of those barriers. That's when I started to hear a lot about out-of-state tuition for public universities for people who didn't have documents, and also not being able to obtain my driver's license. I went to the driver's ed class and by the end when I got my certificate is when that changed in North Carolina.
DV: Oh wow.
YGR: So, I was not able to get my driver's ed even though I went to the course just because by the time I finished is when things shifted.
DV: The rules changed.
YGR: And then there were other, sort of, institutions of higher education that were switching their policies of who could come to school. And maybe you could register but if someone else wanted to be in the class you would be kicked out and you would still have to pay out-of-state tuition or you would just not be welcome. So it was a lot of just--. It was hard. It was just hard to kind of think about where would I go. And so, meeting my friend who went to Guilford sort of opened up that one opportunity for me to think about, you know, he did it, I'm going to do it too. And somehow I made it to Guilford College. There was a program there called Bonner Scholars Program that provided scholarship support for low-income students that were interested in doing service, community service and service learning.
DV: What was the name of the program?
YGR: Bonner Scholars Program. And it's a national program, but not every school has it. That program at Guilford at the time was a four-year program where you started as a freshman and took a class and did service hours during the semester, did internship experiences during the summer, and all as a part of a cohort with your class, but also connecting to other Bonners from other classes. And I think for me, thinking back, I mean I've been aware of this for a long time that I was definitely one of--. A fortunate student that got that opportunity because not many students like myself at the time and even still now were able to have that opportunity. I think it was a combination of knowing certain people, like the program, that I got admitted to the school, my grades I guess, but also my dad helped me a lot because he was in Mexico, and he would support me financially as much as he could to be able to pay tuition.
DV: Wow.
YGR: So, the difference was that if I was to go to a public institution, I would have paid out-of-state tuition that can be like two, three times as much as the regular tuition. In Guilford College, being a private school, you get charged the same. You might not get as much help, but at least it's not more money than what you know already that you're going to get charged. And with the scholarships, we were able to piece it together. And Guilford was definitely, again, one of those shaping experiences for me because since I got to the school, I had a group of people that came along that I know had shared values in a way or shared goals of giving back to the community. And it was really cool because it was people from all over the world, from all over the United States but also all over the world. And getting to see how we're different, but we have very similar experiences, was really nice. I remember one of the trips we took which was our first-year experience summer trip, and we went to a Native American reservation for a couple weeks. And so, at that point I was undocumented, so I didn't have a driver's license. I didn't have anything but my Mexican passport and so I called my dad, and I told him that there's this trip that falls in my birthday and that I wanted to go and that, you know, there were risks because I would be flying. And he told me do you want to go, and I said yes. He's like, well, do it. So, I went on that trip pretty nervous because, I mean, I had a little fear of what could happen but thankfully everything went well. And I spent two weeks in that reservation. Some of my peers, I had peers from like Kenya and peers from different parts of Middle Eastern just like Europe and then U.S. So it was really neat to be in that space and get to know even more, like a diverse group. And I remember they asked us if we wanted to stay at a cabin or in one of the teepees. And a lot of us being international, what you would consider an international student or not an American student, we were like, we're not sleeping in the teepee. It's like, we've been there, you know, we've been already in conditions that may not be the most desirable, so we're like, no.
DV: We want to be comfortable.
YGR: Yes, we want to be comfortable. And so that was really funny to see that you just share experiences or just thinking with other peers that were trying to be more comfortable, not suffer more than we need to.
DV: What was the destination?
YGR: That was Montana.
DV: Okay.
YGR: So we were in Montana in a Native American reservation. We arrived to Billings and then drove out and everyone there in that reservation was really nice to me and to another Mexican student because we look alike. When I got to the reservation I was like, oh, is this--. It looked like people could be, you know, I could have been in Mexico because we look alike. And so, I definitely saw that treatment in a better way towards us and we got to cook for them pozole, also tacos, tacos dorados with buffalo meat. It was an interesting mix and just a really cool experience, and all that to say that, that program really shaped me because it kind of got us out of our comfort zone, got us to learn a lot about other cultures and about ways of connecting because we're people and finding those commonalities. That week when we were there, we didn't know that Obama was going to be at the reservation.
DV: Oh wow
YGR: This was when he was running for his campaign, the first time. And there were no phones, no clocks, nothing. We were like no technology, no TV. We were disconnected in the reservation, and we were told one morning after breakfast, get ready, we're going to go to this event. So, we got ready and left and it was Obama who was visiting the reservation and that was really neat. One of those really cool experiences. And then get to see him, you know, actually become president--. But going back to Bonner Scholars Program and Guilford College, I was highly involved in different activities that related to the Latino community, more specifically Latino youth or Latino students. I ran an after-school tutoring program called Latino Impact, and we went to McLeansville to a middle school and did tutoring of students. So I would have volunteers come with me and we helped with their homework. It was sixth graders for the most part, sixth, seventh, eighth graders. And then once a year, I helped to co-found a conference for Latino students called Soy Un Lider. So my fall semester, my first fall semester at Guilford, we co-founded a conference with a friend that went to high school with me. He was a senior, I was a freshman, and so he had this idea and sort of brought me on board to help co-found this one-day conference. And then he graduated, and so I felt I needed to keep it going. And we brought--.We started by bringing 150 to 200 students. And then it just grew from there every fall. And they had the experience of visiting the college, eating in the cafeteria, going to workshops, and the whole point was sharing with them information, resources that would help them to get to college, and hopefully not struggle as much as we did in not knowing what was even available or what options we had, and that was very geared towards undocumented and first-generation Latino students. And those experiences I feel like, it really gave me the ability to think through what is in our reach to push for change, what resources we have, and make the most with what you have. Because we were just, you know, college students. We would visit high schools and just talk to the administration and be like, we want to invite students. So little by little, we grew those relationships. We got school systems to provide their bus, the transportation for students to get to the conference. It was on a Saturday. We got funding from the school to pay for the breakfast and to give them gear, so it was just really cool to kind of give back in that sense. Even if it was one day, even if it was, you know, just a tiny piece of information. It was nice to see that hopefully they will hear something today that will have an impact in them. And I think for me the most favorite memory of that conference every year was coming into the cafeteria when they were eating lunch and just to see how many Latinos were in that space. And to see other students from campus walking in and just being like, who are these people? This is not the norm, right? A lot of us were one student who identifies Latino in the classroom; and so to be able to have that many people on campus and to see themselves there, but also to see other people acknowledge their presence, those are the moments that I live for in a way.
DV: So, you started it with your friend freshman year and then you continued it, until?
YGR: I continued every year until I graduated and it's still happening.
DV: Wow.
YGR: Like everything that, you know, they have up and downs in terms of leadership and support from school with administration change. And so that results in more resources or less resources that go into the conference, but it's still happening.
DV: That’s great.
YGR: And that just, you know, sort of uplifts my spirit because I know that at that moment we were focused on the Latino students. There are other students who also need that same support, like international students, refugees, asylees. And Greensboro has a large population of--. A really diverse population. So they also broadened a little bit the confidence to make sure that they were doing outreach to those students as well. So it is still happening, and it is one of those things that keeps me really close with the school, knowing that even after 10 plus years, it is still a need and there's still people who are willing to do that work. And other couple things that Guilford was, at that moment, the Latino club on campus was Hispanos Unidos de Guilford. And, you know, there's different ways that people identify themselves, so I use Latino a lot, Latina, Latinx, Hispanic. At that moment in time, from 2007 to 2011, Hispanic was the word that most people used. So, the club was Hispanos Unidos de Guilford. And we did a lot of activities throughout the year, celebrated Farm Work Awareness Week, celebrated Hispanic Heritage Month. I also was seen as an international student to Guilford because of my application. So I also did a little bit of the international club. So, I don't know, it felt like it was a small campus and had a lot of resources. And it gave me the ability to do different things and connect with different groups of students and bring them all together in a way. And so that was inspiring for me to see that, okay, people follow me. For some reason, people volunteer to help me. And it's what we need, right? We need groups of people who are excited about something. And for me, that was really energizing. And that conference, the Soy Un Lider Conference, is like I'm a leader. And sometimes, a lot of times, even students, even adults, we doubt ourselves of our abilities to do something. And I think for me, that learning lesson there was like, you might be the one leading or pushing but you need a group of people because one person cannot do it alone. And in leadership also looks different in a way. I might be a quiet leader right, but you can still do things in front of people, behind the scenes. So that's something that I really learned at that moment, and I try to remind myself because sometimes it's still hard. You know, imposter syndrome comes back, and you try to question, am I in the right place? Do I belong? Can I do this? So just thinking about that younger Yazmin who was able to do something, and people believed. And it had an impact. It helps me to move through. And you asked about internships.
DV: Right.
YGR: I did two internships that I recall more clearly. My first internship was at Student Action with Farmworkers and that was, again, an internship that my friend did. So, I was like he did it I'm going to go and do it. And he was--.
DV: The same friend?
YGR: Same friend
DV: Wow
YGR: Same friend. And so, he told me about the internship. As a Bonner Scholar, we were supposed to do an internship. And so, I worked in a clinic of Piedmont Health Services in Prospect Hill as a farm worker, outreach worker, doing outreach to farm worker camps. And so, we visited farms or like camps, we call it camps, which is the housing where farm workers live. It might be a trailer; it might be a big building that looks like a warehouse. And it can vary from like 3, 4, 5, 10 farm workers to like 150 or more farm workers. A lot of them come from Mexico and through the H-2A visa , and work in the fields for a time frame and go back home. And so, we would bring to them information around health, health education, we would take their blood pressure and talk to them about diabetes. And just trying to provide information and resources to them, connect them to the clinic if they needed an appointment, if they needed medicine. And that really, that internship is something that I feel really shaped me again because even if I grew up in Alamance County, I had no idea that just 40, 20, 30 minutes away there are farms and there's farm workers. And that a lot of them are actually from my home country and that looked like they could have been my dad, my grandpa, my granddad, or one of my siblings, or someone I know. And just to see the disparity in terms of access to healthcare, resources, and a lot of injustices that may happen because of their job. The different power dynamics that come into play. And that really got me into the sort of farm worker justice movement here
DV: It galvanized you.
YGR: Yes. In North Carolina.
DV: So this internship is happening while you're in college?
YGR: Summer yeah, a whole summer. So, during college I was doing the tutoring, I was doing the club on campus, and I was doing also the conference once a year. During the summer we had an internship, and it was--. This first one was a Student Action with Farmworkers, and this summer internship is called Into the Fields. And so it brings students from North Carolina and farmworker students from other parts of the country like Idaho, California, Texas, where there's other farm worker populations that at that time were bigger, and that--. Either it could be children of farm workers or even children that worked as farm workers at some point. So it was a really cool space because a lot of--. To be part of the internship, you had to speak Spanish. And so even those that were not Latino, like they spoke Spanish and liked the culture, and it was like a cohort, you know. Sort of a program where there's retreats, there's trainings, there is just different types of activities that help you feel more comfortable with who you are. And I think one of the things for me, too, is I didn't have a problem with being who I am because that's who I am. I grew up in Mexico, so I feel very grounded on my language and my culture, but I know other people who grow up here sometimes have a challenge because it's like, at home it's one culture and outside it's another culture so you're trying to grapple with who you are and what's okay because of the pressure. So I really got to see other students who were at the beginning a little shy to speak Spanish, or a little shy to say where they were coming from, or a little shy to dance, you know, bachata salsa whatever and then by the end they were this is who I am and like--.
DV: Embracing it.
YGR: Yeah, embracing their culture. So I loved being part of that experience and to also learn it's okay to be who I am in terms of the context of being an immigrant and having you know English as my second language, having an accent, like those things I think that those were the things that I got from the experience as well. And that having this bicultural, bilingual experience and a skill set also can contribute in different ways in the workplace, because at the end of the day we were increasing capacity for organizations that were doing this outreach. And this was at the time where there were no smartphones, so we would do outreach based on a map. We would pull a big map and then try to find the street where the camp was and then drive around the country and then try to figure out where this house is. And there would be notes like, you know, look at the tree in this intersection. A lot of farmworker housing is not like a regular housing that you can see from the road. It might be a dirt road that you have to go. And then, you know, it's kind of hidden from communities. So it's really crazy to think now that we just put something on the GPS, and it tells us, sometimes even shows you a picture of what it looks like, but back in the day, it was really pairing up with one more student, intern, or the supervisor and driving with them and figure out where the housing was. So I learned a lot and got to network a lot through that internship. I feel that led me to my second internship the following summer, which was at American Friends Service Committee, AFSC, which is a Quaker organization. And at the time it was based in Greensboro. And the director at the time of the immigrant rights program, she was also SAFista. And we call SAFista anyone who has done any SAF program, any Student Action with Farmworkers program. So she was a SAFista from back in the day, leading this program in immigrant rights and I applied for an internship there and got to learn more about the immigrant rights space like the advocacy happening at the time in general, advocacy for issues that we still face today like immigration reform, humane immigration reform, driver's license, tuition equity, all those issues that are still present. And I got to learn and be in the space and support those efforts during that summer. And that person, that director, really became one of the people, too, that became part of my support system. And I think that is what I'm really grateful for; that all throughout my journey I have found those people. Like I mentioned in high school, teachers, in my internships and in the different spaces that I was part of finding people that are going to be there for you no matter, you know, how you move in life through other spaces. She's been one of those people that has been job references for me, you know, one of those people that I call and try to ask at different points for her thoughts and feedback and that got to know me more during that time of my life. So those are the main internships that I think really took me in terms of helping me to develop my resume per se. So, by the time that I graduated, I had a lot of things. Like, I was, not just--.
DV: You were just busy.
YGR: I was busy, not just participating, but I was leading on campus and also participating in the internships. And I think that I'm grateful for that. I don't regret it. But looking back, I know that I was overcommitted. And I guess the weight that I was carrying, it was like, if I don't do it, who will do it because there were not a lot of Latino students on campus at the time. It was only a few of us. It was like three Mexican students, different classes, you know, Puerto Ricans, a couple. Some people that were adopted from Latin America and were trying to connect with their, you know, culture of the country where they were born, but there were not a lot of Latino students, so it just felt like I was trying to do it all.
DV: You felt like it was your responsibility, then?
YGR: Yes, yes, because I knew, and I was very aware that a lot of students that went to high school with me didn't make it to college. And it wasn't because they didn't want to, it was because it was not easy, or it was because they were discouraged very early on because they were told there is not going to be a way for you to do it even if you have documents. That's what really is really crazy, and I know it's still happening. If your family hasn't gone through higher ed, and if you're a person of color, if you're Latino, if you're a child of immigrants, a lot of times this system and people around it still kind of, don't see that in you or don't encourage that in you. Or even worse, like discourage you and tell you that's not an option. I know, I went to my counselor in high school, and they didn't know how to help me. There's no supports in many places still, or not enough for students. So, I definitely felt like I wanted to give back and that's why Soy Un Lider Conference focused on Alamance County, Guilford County, and Forsyth because it was sort of my hometown and surrounding counties where the conference took place. And that really sort of pushed me to do so much, which I think helped me in my professional sort of career path. But my senior year was really stressful because I was trying to graduate, fulfill my requirements. I was a business--. I was a French and business, sort of French major. Business was supposed to be my second major, but I ended up having to graduate. I think I ended up graduating with two minors in business and one more thing I don't even remember, oh my gosh. I had completed three minors, but they don't let you graduate with three minors. I had major in French and three minors in business related but I had to pick two, so I think it was business and business law. And the reason was, I was short one class to finish my major in business. But at that point I was like, I'm done, I don't need to, I didn't have the money, I didn't have the energy to come back and finish one more class to complete that business double, to have a double major. So, I was like, I'll just graduate. And I think it was just, I was so over committed and tired because I was also, towards the end, I tried to find ways to work to earn a little money so that I could still sort of be okay, because every year tuition goes up. And so, by the time I started I think it was like 10K a semester, no, 15K a semester. By the time I finished, it was way higher than that. So it was a lot of, sort of, pressure, and I was just ready to graduate. When I graduated I was still undocumented, so that year was hard, 2011 to 2012, because I had a degree and it was sort of--. I found myself in a place where a lot of people had sort of questioned, before, what are you going to do when you graduate and you still don't have documents to work. I heard that a lot during my time in college and that was hard because it's like you want to be motivated, you want to keep pushing, you want to show that you're doing the most with the opportunity, but that’s a real question that I tried to ignore because I didn't want to lose sight of my goal which was to graduate. And it was hard to kind of keep going that year just trying to figure out what am I going to do, and I knew that maybe I needed to go back to Mexico if I couldn't work here. And that's why I was going for business and French in college, because I wanted something that could maybe help me if I had to go back to my home country or end up going to a different country. I couldn't graduate with anthropology or sociology because my family would have been like what are you going to do with that, you know. What do you do with that degree in another country like Mexico. So, it was 2012, the summer of 2012 when President Obama announced the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals and that was the light that I was waiting for. That was the moment that I was preparing for. And so, I didn't doubt enrolling into the program as soon as it was an option. I remember I heard about it, I was so excited, started putting all my documents together, thinking through what they would be asking for. And as soon as the day came to be able to apply and submit an application, I was one of those first ones that I know of in my circle of friends. And I know a lot of people were fearful because, I mean, you know we don't trust the government a lot of times for various reasons, and so people were really fearful of coming forward. And then you know not knowing what really could happen once you did that. But I just felt like what am I going to lose, I don't have anything to loose. And so I applied, and I was going through that process, waiting to hear back, going to do my biometrics, my fingerprints and all that. And then I saw this job that opened up at the Student Action with Farmworkers, which was the first internship, the first organization that I interned for. And so, I was like, I'm going to apply. And so, I applied, and the position was National Organizer. And so I was going through the application process and waiting to hear back about DACA. And I went to two or three interviews, and I got a call on a Friday saying that I got the job and I was so happy. And I wanted to say yes but I still didn't have my work permit, so I asked for a couple days to think about it but I know I didn't have anything to think about. I wanted a job. I just wasn't ready.
DV: Were you giving yourself time to get those permits, maybe?
YGR: Yeah. And so, in that call I was like, oh yes, can I think about it and get back to you next week? And that weekend I got my work permit. It just felt like it was meant to be and everything lined up. So I got my work permit, I started working that December at Student Action with Farmworkers leading up to 2013. And that really opened up the doors for me in so many ways. Having DACA, being able to use--. Because a lot of jobs they don't ask you--. I mean they say preference in a degree on this, right? But they're looking at the education level, like bachelor's degree, master's degree, or whatever. And so, I had the degree, I had the experience, and I wanted to be able to do something, get a job that I was passionate about. And so DACA opened up that for me. And this organization means a lot to me because it was the first organization that opened the doors to give me an internship knowing my situation. Because I've always been pretty open about, you know, my situation and who I am, so it meant a lot for me that that was my first job. And I was there for about three, four years working in different roles as a national organizer, coordinating National Farmworker Awareness Week, doing a lot of the alumni engagement. Later became director of the youth program, so working with youth, farmworker youth, and really networking and connecting and supporting a lot of that farmworker advocacy movement in the state to improve the working and living conditions of the population. And during that time, it was towards my last year and a half working there, that I realized that I wanted to go back to school. And it was a combination of, started looking at people around me. Well, I knew I wanted to go back to school, but I didn't know for what. Because at that point, I only knew my one friend. [Laughter]. Going back to my one friend that had gone to Guilford from my high school, he went and did his MBA. And so, I knew that there was Master’s in business administration, but I was like, ah, I knew I did business in college, but that's not where my heart is. And so that was not what I wanted to do. I didn't know many people personally, you know friends, close friends or family that had a Master’s, but I started looking at everyone around me and trying to figure out what their degree was. People that I looked up to in the work. This was before LinkedIn. You couldn't just you know figure out what people's journey was. I started meeting with people for coffee. I ended up meeting with 15 or more social workers. And they were all doing different work, in farmworker-related, immigrant rights-related, just different type of work. And I was like, I want to be a social worker, because they're all doing work that I would love to be able to do, positions that I would love to have. And that's one of the reasons why I chose social work. And the other one is because I was working with the farmworker youth, and it was really working with them, their families, their siblings, their networks, because they would connect. They would know that there was a need, and they would refer people to me to try to find support and resources for them or just hear them out. And a lot of those concerns and just things that people were going through were really heavy and I didn't know how to deal with that. I couldn't go home and not think about it, or I couldn't get frustrated that there was nothing else that could be done to help them and so I knew that social work would give me a little bit more of that training on to figure out how you even help, and how do you respond, what's your role. How to push systems and how to continue to advocate for people in different ways, and that's when I ended up going to the school social work at UNC. That was a whole different journey. A whole different journey because I had been out of school for years. I still, I was DACAmented, as they say, and still had to pay out-of-state tuition if I wanted to go back to school. And it felt selfish to want to go back to school when there were a lot of people still that hadn't had the opportunity to even go to a community college or a college or university for a four-year degree, and I wanted more. So that kind of, I think I put those ideas on myself but it was just hard to kind of want more. And it was my support system, it was people around me that encouraged me to not give up and to find a way. And I met--. I had someone on Facebook that I thought it was the Facebook of this person that worked in the same building as me, and I did a lot of presentations and supported a class that happened for university students. So my support was really around farmworker information, presentations, and farmworker education for those students. So I had this person on Facebook, I thought it was this professor, but it really was that he shared that Facebook page with his wife. So it was the kids' Facebook page, and they both used it. They shared pictures of their children. So I posted something that like--. He knew that I wanted to go to school. I posted that I was trying to go to school, trying to find resources, scholarships and all that. And he connected me with his wife and said: I think you really want to talk to my wife, you should meet. She's also a social worker. And she wants to help you. And I didn't know that this whole time she had been--. She knew who I was because of Facebook, and so I met with her a weekend in this office, in her office, and we came up with a plan on how I was going to be able to go to grad school.
DV: Wow.
YGR: Like, who I needed to reach out to at the school, how I was going to try to pull in enough funding. And I walked away from her office with this big sheet of paper with everything on it and I really went on that path. I ended up having to fundraise for my education because there were not many scholarships for students like me. The ones that were available I applied out of the school, and I didn't get those. Very competitive national scholarships. And people like her and others connected me with people at the School of Social Work. Everyone at the School of Social Work knew that I was coming, who I was. There had seen emails about me, people advocating for me to be thought of for a scholarship support. It could be a little embarrassing. [Laughter]. You know, because people were like, this is just me and this is everything she's done, and she would be amazing, and these are the challenges that she has. So I think for me the most difficult part was to try to fundraise. And the moments that really were like--. That brought me a lot of joy. And just what surprised me a lot is people that didn't know me that supported me. Like people in my network spoke highly of me to their network and I got checks from people that I had never met. And some people didn't want me--. They wanted to be anonymous, they didn't need me to contact them and thank them and I was like I want to thank you, I want to know who you are. And people from my community, people from the community where I grew up also supported that.
DV: In Mexico?
YGR: Here.
DV: Oh, here.
YGR: Here in Alamance County. And so, to me it meant people believe in me, people are cheering for me, supporting me. And so I just went all in and fundraised for my whole grad school cost, and went into grad school trying to be the best student ever. Like read everything and do everything. I got to be an RA all throughout both years and the summer and learn from different professors. It was really one of those, again, life-changing experiences, because I never thought I would be able to be there. Even with DACA, even with a driver's license and a social security number, it's still a place that is not that accessible to DACAmented and undocumented students. So it felt surreal. And also hard because you're one of a few Latino students. There was, not that I knew of, any other student that was in the same situation that I was. And it's an institution at the end of the day, so there's things that could be better. We're always, as students, we're always challenging the system. We're always questioning, especially at the School of Social Work where in the code of ethics it's like social justice is one of those things that, you know, we care about. So it was interesting because I was sort of part of the advocacy but also working for professors and being an RA for the assistant dean, and you know. [Laughter]. Pushing here, but also this is my research assistantship and this is how I'm able to be in school. Because I was working for the school so that they could help me with my tuition, with part of the tuition, at least not pay out-of-state tuition, but pay it sort of the mid-level point through the funding that the research assistantship came with. So it was an incredible experience and I was able to do a couple internships there at the Hispanic Family Center through Catholic Charities in Raleigh. And then my final internship was an internship that I found on my own. It wasn't one listed. The list of internships, there was nothing that really spoke to me. And so I went to try to find an organization that had a social worker that could supervise me and that had the work that I wanted to do. And so I reached out to the American Civil Liberties Union who had two social workers. I knew one of them and I ended up being an intern there. And that's when DACA was rescinded. So it was when the Trump administration was trying to get rid of DACA and it was very fearful because DACA is what had opened the doors for me, it was the way that I could work for the school and finish grad school. And so I was in the middle trying to keep organizations informed, like support on that end, trying to support the advocacy efforts and be part of that work again, now as a grad student. Very nerve-wracking too because I felt like, I don't know, I just--. You just put ideas on yourself. I was--. The expectations are high on how I'm supposed to, you know, do the work because now I'm in grad school. I just felt it was I have to do my best and even better than, you know, two years ago because I'm a grad student and I put a lot of pressure on myself at that time. And I was able graduate from the School of Social Work and land on my first job. I applied for different things that felt sort of comparable, like going back to the farmworker space. I tried to get into philanthropy which didn't work at the time. I was seen as very young, not a lot of experience on that sort of area. And then I ended up being sort of recruited or encouraged to apply for a position at the hospital in town. And it was working under the supervision of the person that was really crucial in helping me come up with a plan on how I was going to get to grad school. That woman that I mentioned that brought me to her office, that I knew her husband, and so also social worker. And I ended up applying for jobs. I got a job in farmworker health and I declined that job and ended up coming to work for the hospital. And I actually, I don't know, it's full circle in a way because I got to work in the community where I grew up, got to learn, got to meet more people. And understand the dynamics that happen in the county between non-profits, hospital, health department, things that work, things that could be better, contributing in the ways that I could to make spaces more welcoming of Latinos. Or try to bring a little bit more awareness of why you might not be seeing Latinos and how you could improve in your outreach. And having the supervisor I had was an amazing experience because she was a leader that tried to uplift and to give you the tools you needed to do what needed to be done. And it was a little crazy when she said that she wasn't in the office much because she was covering a broader region and that she was going to give me her office. And I was like, what?! The office where I first met her to come up with a plan on how I was going to get to grad school. That's what it meant to me. I was like, the office with three windows, I'm getting that office? So that just felt like, oh my god, full circle. I can't believe that two years ago, two and a half years ago, I was sitting in this office not knowing that I was going to be able to go to grad school and not knowing that I was going to be able to, you know, move on in my career thanks to having a master's degree.
DV: Wow.
YGR: And that work in the hospital was really rewarding, was really hard, too, because it was coming--. It was putting me out of my comfort zone not being in the immigrant rights space, farmworker advocacy space where everyone is aware of the community needs or trying to serve or have that shared goal. It was more of just different people, right, with different jobs, serving the broader community, very mainstream in a way, where there were little to no Latinos in the spaces where I was moving. And so that was hard to navigate, but also rewarding to see little by little sort of the impact of just my presence or a comment or a question or my--. Or giving input. We were able to do a lot of programming to grow the programming for the Latino population in Alamance County, connect people to resources that were available for free or little cost like mammogram, you know, just information on pre-diabetes, like connecting people to different resources. And that's when the pandemic hit. And that's when we all shut down in terms of showing up to the office. And my supervisor being very supportive allowed me to do the work that I thought was needed, which was to support with basic needs to the community because people were staying home, losing their jobs or not being able to work, like not having food. It was just really like a chaos. And so I worked closely with the Dream Center in Burlington. Past Lisa had this idea of doing a food giveaway and trying to find meals and give it out to the community. And it was literally her family, my husband and I, and one more couple on the first day. And they bought food, they found funding, and I came up with ways to improve our system. I supported that day. We had cars coming through one end of the building going all around and we had a tent we were giving out the food it was very, like, the first day was a mess. It was good but it was like we were just trying to improve, and we served, I don't know if the first day we served like 120 families. I don't know, a crazy number of just cars that came by and we just gave them food and you know trying to have PPE on us and protect ourselves and protect others but give food. And that just grew and grew and grew and every week we were giving more and more food. So many people came along to help after that first day, we had nonprofits showing up, Elon University leadership, people from the city of Burlington, the mayor was out there, former mayor was there giving out food. And just different people came and helped and it just grew from giving this full menu that people can choose from American and Latino food and diapers and fruit and getting donations and giving out masks and giving out, you know, what we could. And it was definitely like--. Thursday was the day where even people that didn't know what was going on they would see the lines of cars and would come and get in line. They were like we don't know what's happening, but everybody's coming so we want to come and see. And it had a huge impact on nonprofits and organizations who had heard about Latinos, who had heard about the Dream Center, but really didn't come close yet, so they got to see the community and that was impactful too because a lot of times people may ask where are the Latinos, right? They're not coming, and we're here, we're part of the community. They're just busy working jobs that sometimes are not visible and they're keeping to themselves because it's what's comfortable and it's what feels safe. And the Dream Center became that sort of place that a lot of people start to recognize the habit trust in the community that was in the, in the part of town where we needed resources the most. And so, it was really neat to be able to give back during those times that were really difficult. That was before testing. Then testing came around and we coordinated, I helped to coordinate in the county different places for testing. We were going to the places in the community where we could see the higher rates or where we wouldn't, we didn't see rates because we also thought people were not being tested there. In rural parts of the county, different parts of the county, and it was free testing for anyone that wanted it in a drive-thru sort of way in collaboration with the health department. And so I was in that time when I got a call that my dad was feeling, was ill, was not doing well in Mexico, and had to go back to Mexico. And he had gotten COVID, it was July, and he didn't make it. So that was really hard because I was here, you know in the response and trying to provide what I could to the community and then my dad was home, not feeling well, not telling us for some days because, my dad. And I got to Mexico and by the time I got there he was at a hospital, and I was not able to go in. I was not able to see him. And that just was so hard for my family and for myself. And a lot to kind of deal with and process in that sort of very scary way of you not being able to be there for your loved one, you not being able to even do the proper traditional way of a funeral. Or doing the things that we usually would do for the people we love. And so that 2020 was definitely a rough year for me and then coming back to--. Having to come back and go back to work and still processing that for a long time. And my husband was running for office, too, at that time, so it was a lot to kind of grieve for my dad, be strong for family, and support my husband as he was running his first campaign for office. And that fall is when, I was supposed to become a citizen in March, but it happened that the pandemic got here and everything got shut down, so it got pushed to October, and I was able to become a citizen in October. And that was sort of, one of the first sort of big painful moments because it was one of the first few life milestones that I wasn't able to call my dad and tell him. And I remember that being really hard just because it's a moment that I should be happy but it was, you know--. When he, when someone you love is no longer a part of your life, it's really hard to kind of figure out the thing that I would do is not something that I can do anymore. But I guess the little happiness or the little sort of moment that brought comfort was knowing that, I feel like I know that he's with me, you know, in different ways now and that he would be happy for me. And also, that same day, because of the pandemic, it was very weird citizenship ceremony where it was three of us in this huge room and nobody else could come into the building. They asked the questions. They did my interview, my final interview, and then right away put us in this room for the oath. So I did everything in one day instead of doing two parts as usually the process would be, and then I got out of there and drove directly to early voting. It was the last day of early voting, and so I registered to vote during early voting before it closed, and I voted for my husband. And I was like, I cannot believe that this is happening and then drive straight to the library to request my passport because I was like, there's no going back, they can't take this away from me. I'm going to do everything I need to do--.
DV: Yeah, you made it.
YGR: To get this, you know, to get to this point. So it was a full day of, you know, just--. I feel like I was running, before anybody changed their mind, to do what I needed to do. So 2020 was definitely bittersweet in many ways, for many of us, but definitely very high highs and very low lows. And then that fall I got a call from a friend that said, do you want to do the work that you're doing at the county level but at the state? And I was like, no, I got enough with my county. There's plenty of work to do here and I'm doing all I can. And I was like, still doing the work with the hospital, canvassing. Well we were starting to do lid drops, not canvassing, that fall, and just juggling everything and grieving. And it was probably a month later that I saw the job description for the job that I have now and I fell in love with it because it was the focus on the Latino community, it was really working at a systems level. It felt that every part of my journey was leading me to this job, from a personal, to a professional, to an educational experience. And so, I put my name in the hat. I applied, went through three interviews and was waiting to hear back and left to Mexico to see family. It was probably between November and December. I think it was like November, December.
DV: Still 2020?
YGR: In 2020. November December of 2020. I applied around September, October and then it was November, December, I was in Mexico riding a taxi with my husband. An old taxi, it was an old car, you could hear the engine, one of those cars. And so, I got a call from who would be my supervisor and I was in this car and the engine you could hear the eeeeh, and I was like this is embarrassing but I have to talk to her. So my husband try to tell the taxi driver to pull to the side because literally the sound was horrible and so he pulled over. And then she gave me the job offer and she said that, you know, congratulations you got the job. Gave me a little bit of information and said that I could review the documents that were coming to my email and then get back to them. And so that moment is very memorable because I was in Mexico, you know, the place where I was born, the city where I was born. And then getting to--. I'm getting to hear that I got a job working in the government in this place that I went to for better life and better opportunities, in a taxi with this horrible noise. And so that was really the moment that, you know, sort of shaped what was to come for the next two-plus years now. Came back, started working in January and it was really hard for many months working about 15 hours every day non-stop, no weekends, no evenings. Really being part of that early, since the very early stage of vaccine distribution, COVID-19 vaccine distribution in the state and prevention work. And having the weight of knowing that the Latino population was disproportionately impacted by COVID, and knowing that farmworkers were impacted, that meat-processing plant workers were impacted, just frontline workers who for the most part were Latino, were impacted and trying to do all I could to be part of that response. So it was a lot.
DV: What had happened with your dad, did you have that in your mind also when you went through that work?
YGR: Yes, yes and I was trying, you know, had a lot of--. I did seek therapy that didn't work. Didn't work, the therapist that I found was not a good fit and I was like, I'm wasting my time and I didn't have time to look for another therapist, but I had friends and people that were there for me. I know that it's hard, when you have a friend that is going through that you sometimes don't know how to act, you don't know what to say, you don't know how to support. But I did have people that were there for me and talked to me, you know, said: why are you doing this? Are you doing this for your dad? Also, don't feel like you have to sacrifice or like--. Not sacrifice yourself, but put yourself in a place where it's also painful because it's a reminder, right? And so I thought it through, and I know that part of me was trying to prevent the suffering of other families, and I do all I can to be part of that response because I know it was real. A lot of people were like, COVID is not real. And I was like, COVID is real. COVID is the reason why my dad is no longer here. And I think for me it was a part of giving back and trying to alleviate the situation as much as possible, or contribute to or control the pandemic, or prevent the spread. But also because I think this is my life's work. I never think about, in my path, in my career, it's never been about a position and a title, it's been about the work. What about this role will speak to me and will make a difference to the community that I care about? And that is sort of what drives me. And that's what really drove me to this job, looking at the job description and the possibilities, knowing that it was going to be really, really hard, knowing that I was going to end up working within an institution that was being held accountable by the advocacy groups that I was part of in previous roles. So it was a lot of--. It was really hard emotionally to navigate that because now I'm part of the system, right? And so being that bridge builder but also at times taking it all, and trying to help with solutions. But at the end of the day, now I'm the face or I became the face during those moments of what was not right, or what could be better and needed to be better with the same people that I was colleagues, you know, for a long time in the movement. So that was a hard shift and trying to--. I knew that I am here to improve the strategies, the initiatives, to make sure that we have a lens of the community, to look at policies and interventions and ways that we can be better. In that moment, it was specific to COVID-19, but also kind of showing people, feeling that I had to show people that I'm still me and I'm still here for the right reasons, even though I'm not part of the outside advocacy. So that was shift, it was the first time that I found myself in that sort of dynamic scenario. And it's been a really rewarding experience. It's been hard. It's been an adjustment, learning how government works. And it's also, for me, I'm really grateful to have been part of that team that was part of COVID-19 response at the state level because I saw that everybody was working nonstop and giving their all. And they had been there since the beginning, like the prior year when I was at the county level. So, the county-level work was hard physically because we were doing the food distribution, mentally, emotionally, but it was not the level of pressure at the state that I came to in 2021, and that I had to kind of, to do that work. And I think the other thing that has been rewarding there is to try to shape my job because it was the first time that this position was created, so there was not before anybody in this role. So try to establish myself and show people that I'm about collaboration, I'm about improving the work together. It is a system, it's huge. There's different things that could be better and trying to focus on what can we actually accomplish in the time that we have. And also I've gotten to work with students who are getting their Master’s of Social Work so now I get to, by this point I've had three students, supervised three students, that are becoming social workers who are Latina, who are bicultural with different life experiences, who have been in North Carolina, either were born here, grew up here, have been here for some time. And so that feels to me that is a part--. I've identified that that is a part that is important to me. Even if it's middle school, which is our ( ) age, high school, youth, just making sure that we're still working on that pipeline. Because this work is hard, and we need more people. I don't know why I'm getting emotional.
DV: It's okay.
YGR: I think it's--. What feels heavy a lot of times is that one person cannot change everything and many people are that one person in their space. And it's not fair to them, to the community, to the people. That we need more representation and I think that's what this pandemic really--. I hope that it's the lesson learned for everyone around that we can't wait for a global pandemic to realize that we're not representing the communities that we serve, that we don't have that representation for many systematic reasons, but also it's not the fault of people. From the education system to immigration system, to different systems at play that are not letting people move on to opportunities and be in those spaces. And from policies and practices that come into play, you know, who is being hired, who's given a chance, who's given a scholarship, looking at population, like do we have enough people at the table to be part of the solutions, to serve, so that people feel comfortable. I think that is the work ahead of ourselves. Right now, as we're coming out of this pandemic and everything is kind of going back to normal: not losing sight of what we learned, what was hard, and what we need to continue to implement that was done during COVID in, some shape or form, and continue to make it better. So I think that's what's on my mind a lot these days. Because I tell people, I did feel the pressure of people saying, oh you're the Latina doing all this work, but I'm like, I don't speak for all the Latino population. The Latino population is not monolithic. It's very diverse in so many ways. And I bring perspectives, I bring information, I bring research, I inform. And also, it should be more than one person. All throughout organizations, it should be that way, that people are either aware, knowledgeable, or they are representing the demographics that North Carolina is now. Because it's not like when I first went to high school, that I was the only Latina, you know, in my classroom. Now looking at Alamance County and seeing different schools that have sometimes even 40% Latino, and I could not dream of that when I was growing up. That was something that I didn't experience, right? So we need to make sure that we are setting those infrastructures in place to support the population, especially because--. I mean, I think North Carolina has grew a lot over the last 20 years in terms of demographics in the Latino population and our Latino population right now is still relatively young, but we're going to age and those systems need to be in place to be able to support the community. And so, this pandemic could have been worse in terms of death rates if we had been an older population. And we're not done confronting health disparities, chronic illnesses and everything that's to come.
DV: So that's what's on your mind for now in your current role?
YGR: Yes.
DV: So, considering all of these experiences, Yazmin, what would you say were the main factors that helped you along the way, that shaped the leadership that you have exhibited and continue to exhibit in your role?
YGR: I would say, I don't know. This is a hard one because I think there's definitely people, there's things that I've mentioned, like the people that have been part of my support system. The opportunities that I got that I know that not many people in my time, that share similar experiences, had. I think that, I don't know the word in English, sometimes this one goes away, but like, soy necia. I get into an idea, like I get like--. I think about this is what I want to do, and I just go for it. No matter if people are telling me, you're crazy, that's not doable, why, that's too much this, too much that, I just focus and go and do it. And in a way, I think it can be bad in different ways, you know. But in this case, just setting my mind to something has helped me, even when things were hard. And really having that support system: being family, being friends, being my husband, who believe in me and continue to encourage me and push me to do what I need to do, has been important. And we all have, you know, ups and downs, like there's definitely times and days where it's hard and I think about the why, right? I think about how I started, where I am, where were the possibilities. Knowing that the possibilities are endless, and we just have to keep pushing and that's something that I tell other young people. You never know, you can't just give up because you never know the opportunities that will come later and that's what happened for me. I went to school, to college not knowing that DACA was going to be a thing. And then I got DACA and then I pushed to try to go to grad school not knowing that I was actually going to be able to finish. And I never thought I would be able to become a citizen so you never know the path but you only do, you can only do what's in your control and that's what sort of keeps pushing me. I'm not able to fix everything but what's in my reach, I'll try to do. And it's the people that I've had, the motivation, the sacrifices of my family like my grandparents. For many, many years, my grandparents were in my mind a lot because I know sort of the challenges that they faced, the humble beginnings that they had, how they did all they could for their children. Now, with everything that I've gone through, my dad is on my mind a lot because I know how hard he worked, how much he supported me, how much he cared. His own way he showed us that he loved us. He was not very--.
DV: Affectionate.
YGR: Affectionate, but he showed us in his own ways, and he worked really hard. He was well respected in his job. Dedicated. For him, his job was like life, which sometimes can be bad, and I try to walk myself back when I am getting to that sort of mindset. There's more to life than just work. There’re other things. But I think for me, my job is also sort of my way of being a productive member of society and giving back and making--. Doing my best to make things a little better if even if it's in a small way. That's what sort of drives me. People that I love that I look up to or that were an important part of my life, and of course my mother, who is, who has been an amazing force for me. Yeah, just like thinking about people who have been there for me and what I can do for others. I think that's sort of what has helped me along the way. And I do want to believe that there's a God that has looked out for me because I would not be here in many ways. Just being an immigrant, you know, going through different experiences, something could have happened to me at different parts of my life to derail me from the path. Or to not even be alive, you know. Different kinds of ways. So, I am definitely grateful for that. And what motivates me a lot too, is that I'm not the only one. This is my story and is unique. But there's many stories like mine, and now we're getting to see more and more and more of that. And that really motivates me because during the time that I was sort of growing up and going to college and stuff like that, people would not talk about their experience or they would protect it, which it's so understandable. But now we have more and more people talking about it, bringing awareness, and pushing and advocating, and we're still in the same spot. DACA has been challenged. You know, new people, people who are coming of age cannot apply for DACA even if they qualify. There are no new applications that are being received. So we're not in a better place, even if many, many years have passed. Out of state tuition is still, you know, an issue. Access to driver's license for people is still an issue, immigration reform. So we are not where we need to be, but there's more people coming in and being part of that fight, and that is very motivating.
DV: Speaking of motivation and to conclude our interview, and you've already mentioned a little bit about future leaders, but thinking of all of your experiences, what advice would you give future Latino leaders so that perhaps you're not the only one in the space?
YGR: I think I would highlight unity and common goals. Like I mentioned, the Latino population, Latinx Hispanic population is very diverse in many ways. Immigration experience or, you know, maybe growing up here, generationally, too. We're so diverse. And I think what I would sort of highlight for leaders is the importance of working together and the importance of supporting each other and also the understanding that leadership looks different. And we need all kinds of leadership, and we need all kinds of strategies and advocacy, because I really see this as an ecosystem where different things are happening, and they build on each other and they help each other. And as the leadership grows and as the movement continues to, sort of, expand, I think as a community we got to work together and respect each other and make space for different voices. And I'm thinking very specific about the younger sort of age groups, that we all were young at one point, and we all thought that we could change the world at one point. And we need those mindsets because it is tiring. This journey is tiring. Someone texted me: the struggle is forever, after something happened and now it's like, yes, it's so real, the struggle is forever. We have to take care of each other. We have to take care of ourselves. We have to respect the different ways that people go about strategizing and, you know, fighting maybe within the system, maybe outside of the system, maybe in different ways, but we're not the enemy. Each other, we're not the enemy. We're just trying to move, work alone, and so I think it's important for us to keep that in mind and bring others along into the different spaces. If you have the opportunity to support other people, what better way than to, you know, take advantage of that? And also, if you have been in the space for a long time, hear from other voices and hear about what they're saying and make room in the space that you are to, like, have those people sit at the table. Because I feel that's something definitely that I have seen a lot in our state in terms of dynamics that happen, and that is not really doing us any good. It's actually taking away from the work that should be done. And just to not give up. I mean, I feel everyone's experience and everyone's journey is valid. We need to just sort of embrace each other. That is sort of what I feel I learned at Guilford when I was in the Hispanos Unidos de Guilford. We came together and we were all different, Latinos with different experiences from different walks of life, different countries, and just reassuring: yes, you are here, and you matter, and you are Latino no matter what. Who can, like, nobody can question that. No matter if you speak Spanish or not, no matter if you know how to salsa or not. There is no checklist of this is who you are as a Latino, and this is what makes you a leader. We all have different types of ways that we identify ourselves, different ways that we connect to our culture, different ways that we bring leadership to spaces. And I think because sometimes being the only one, or one of the only ones, that imposter syndrome can come, no matter how long you've been in the work, it’s really helpful when you have that support system and that little group or that person that understands you and supports you. And you can be that to someone else. And I think sharing our experiences and sharing the struggles can also help because you never know who can identify with you and who will hear that and make an impact. Just like my one friend [laughter] who I have followed all throughout. We're actually neighbors right now. We live really around the corner.
DV: Wow.
YGR: But one, one person--. I learned this recently. I spoke at a women's march when Women's March was a thing. I forgot what year, but I spoke at a women's march and there was someone in the audience that what I said resonated with her. Also undocumented, with similar experiences, trying to figure out how to make it to higher education. I was at grad school at the time. And recently she attended a conference and talked to someone else I know. And the question was, what was a time or who was someone that inspired you or something? And she talked about me, and she said, I went to these Women's March, and I heard this speaker that shared different things that I connected with, and that resonated with me. And my friend knew that I spoke to that, in that march, and so she was like, was this her? [Laughter]. And, and, you know, it's like, what?! That was years ago. And I was so scared to speak up and I was so scared to share my story. No matter how open I have been it's always, you know, nerve wracking in front of hundreds of people. And knowing that I said something that this young person was impacted by, and now she is incredible. She is an incredible advocate, doing a lot of advocacies and lobbying at the state level for immigrant rights. I'm inspired by her. But it's just funny to see how we have different points, and you never know when you say something, that person might be needing to hear those words. And she connected with that. So I wanted to cry when that was like, what? She, you know, Women's March--. And she's doing this incredible work and something I said inspired her to keep going. So I think that would be my one last sort of advice to others. You never know who you're impacting, so make sure that you're sharing your experiences with others.
DV: Well, thank you very much for sharing your journey and your story with us today. And your wisdom. Thank you very much.
YGR: Thank you.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Transcribers: Sofia Godoy & Daniel Velásquez
Interview Date: 2023 April 21
Date of Transcription: 2023 July 25. Revisions: 2023 31 August
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Title
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R-1011 -- García Rico, Yazmin.
Description
An account of the resource
Yazmin García Rico is Director of Latinx and Hispanic Policy and Strategy at the North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services (NC DHHS). She recounts her activism during her tenure in college, helping Latinx youth navigate college enrollment and her outreach efforts to connect farmworker communities with healthcare and other resources. Thanks to the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals policy, Yazmin was able to continue helping farmworkers after college in various positions, and also earn a Master’s degree in social work at UNC-Chapel Hill. Yazmin expresses deep regret at her father’s passing from COVID-19 at a time before vaccines or treatments were available. She subsequently joined NC DHHS in her current role to coordinate vaccine distributions and address disparities in the pandemic’s impact on the state’s Latinx population. Yazmin’s journey is marked both by her own determination and the determination of others in her network to help open doors for her. In that vein, Yazmin emphasizes the need for support systems that can help uplift Latinx youth and address underrepresentation across state leadership.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research
Date
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2023-04-21
Publisher
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29349">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
Format
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R1011_Audio.mp3
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/f89a388ba7f21edd7ab09b287a9a71ea.mp3
2afbf8e01b8fa873bea769416b85d944
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/60c473a9b2d7b3ca4bdeeb65b7569816.pdf
7d14ddcfbc9597cfab8de3d9626a5ac1
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-1007
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
Fecha
2022-11-18
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Benítez, Hannia.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Directors, NGOs and institutes
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1992
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Guatemala
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Sanford -- Lee County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-90.345759 15.5855545),1992,1;POINT(-79.1749267578125 35.490474700927734),1997,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Velásquez, Daniel.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Born in Guatemala but raised in Siler City, North Carolina, Hannia Benítez currently serves her local communities as Deputy Director at El Vínculo Hispano/The Hispanic Liaison’s office in Lee County and as Chair of Siler City’s Immigrant Community Advisory Committee (ICAC). Hannia shares her foundational experiences, including the need to be her family’s interpreter during her childhood and her engagement in several clubs throughout High School. A few years later, the advent of the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program helped her during a difficult time in her personal life by opening opportunities for employment and education. While working in the housing sector, Hannia joined the Board of Directors of El Vínculo Hispano, eventually serving as board chair and later transitioning to staff as deputy director of El Vínculo’s first satellite office in Lee County. Lastly, she shares her experience during her first year serving in ICAC, which she explains has been a time for asking questions and learning the workings of local government in order to position their efforts in the coming years. Throughout, Hannia shares advice for future leaders by describing her sense of responsibility for the people and communities that she serves while showing grace and kindness in the face of adversity.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Hannia Benítez by Daniel Velásquez, 18 November 2022, R-1007, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29337
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Community and social services and programs; DREAMers and DACA; Family; Leadership; Social networks
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Directores de ONG e institutos
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Nacida en Guatemala pero criada en Siler City, Carolina del Norte, Hannia Benítez sirve actualmente a sus comunidades locales como Subdirectora en la oficina del Condado Lee de El Vínculo Hispano/The Hispanic Liaison, y como Presidenta del Comité Asesor de la Comunidad Inmigrante (ICAC, por sus siglas in inglés) de Siler City. Hannia comparte sus experiencias fundacionales, incluyendo la necesidad de ser la intérprete de su familia durante la infancia y su participación y liderazgo en varios clubes a lo largo de la escuela secundaria. Unos años más tarde, la llegada del programa federal de Acción Diferida para los Llegados en la Infancia (DACA, por sus siglas en inglés) la ayudó durante un momento difícil de su vida personal, ya que le abrió oportunidades de empleo y educación. Mientras trabajaba en el sector de vivienda, Hannia se unió a la Junta Directiva de El Vínculo Hispano, eventualmente sirviendo como presidenta de la junta. Luego se unió al personal como subdirectora de la primera oficina satélite de El Vínculo en el Condado Lee. Por último, comparte su experiencia durante su primer año de servicio en ICAC, que explica ha sido un tiempo para hacer preguntas y aprender el funcionamiento del gobierno local con el fin de posicionar sus esfuerzos en los próximos años. En todo momento, Hannia comparte consejos para futuros líderes describiendo su sentido de responsabilidad hacia las personas y las comunidades a las que sirve, y mostrando a la vez gracia y amabilidad ante la adversidad.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Hannia Benítez por Daniel Velásquez, 18 November 2022, R-1007, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios; Movimiento de jóvenes 'Soñadores' y Acción Diferida; Liderazgo; Familia; Redes sociales
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Daniel Velásquez: Hannia Benítez is Deputy Director at El Vínculo Hispano, the Hispanic Liaison, and Chair of ICAC, the Immigrant Community Advisory Council at Siler City. I'm Daniel Velásquez. I am interviewing you today for your oral history. Thank you for being with me today. It is November 18, 2022.
Hannia Benítez: Thank you for having me, Daniel.
DV: Hannia, let's get started by talking about your early life, your background, and set the context for us.
HB: Okay, so my name is Hannia Benítez. I was born in Guatemala, but I came to the United States at an early age. I grew up in Chatham County, North Carolina. I am the oldest daughter de mi mami and the oldest granddaughter out of more than twenty grandchildren. I identify as Hispanic Latina. I am currently deputy director for the Hispanic Liaison.
DV: Awesome. Great.
HB: And I am a mother of three beautiful children. I have a twelve-year-old, a ten-year-old, and a two-year-old. Married for ten years. And we also have a little fur baby, Milo. [Laughter].
DV: Great, so you were born in Guatemala. How long have you lived in United States then?
HB: It’s been over 25 years. I was born in ’92. I came to the United States when I was about four or five years old, but our first thought was Los Angeles, where my grandmother was living, and she currently lives there. And then a few years, within one or two years, then we moved here to North Carolina to join the rest of mis tíos, my mother’s youngest brothers and sisters that actually lived in Siler City, so that is where I grew up in.
DV: Maybe just tell me a little bit more about growing up here in North Carolina, in Siler City.
HB: Well, how do I describe it? Well, I guess when we--. I guess just from the beginning, so just to give you context my mother was a single mother with two daughters. My other sister, that is two years younger than I. She used to be a, what would you call it, like a pre-school teacher in Guatemala, so coming to the area she would, when we first got here, she would try to teach us, well mostly me, the basics of el abecedario, the alphabet, the numbers. Everything, she would do it in Spanish because she tells me, te lo voy a enseñar en español and allá en la escuela lo aprendes en inglés, so I’m going to teach it to you in Spanish, and you need to learn it in English in school. And I did just that. Whenever she came here, she worked for--. She started working several odd jobs, but then stayed at the chicken plant at that time. She worked there for several years. The biggest priorities, the biggest important things that she would say, edúquense, you know, educate yourself, learn a lot. And so, our biggest focus was on that, just learning as much as we could, learning the language, learning so many different topics. In school, being the oldest, I often found myself being like the interpreter or the translator for my mom, and then it translated with other family members. And because they would have this expression, like, para eso vas a la escuela. That's why you're going to school. So, you need to know what it is. And sometimes it would start with school messages that were sent home, and they were only in English. And she's like, ¿Qué dice? What did that say? And so, I would tell her mom, they're talking about this, this, this, this and that and trying to get her to understand what they were trying to say and what they wanted her to do. And then that then translated to the other aspects of our lives where I started having to understand how other systems work to be able to explain it to my mom, but at the same time there's still always that passion in school I loved. I'm not going to say reading, no I love reading, it was writing that I just struggled with it because there were so many thoughts in my mind, I was like I don’t know how to put it bien. Yeah, I always loved it. We were in the traditional ESL program. When I say traditional, it would be they pull all of us that are native Spanish speakers. They pull us out of the class. They teach us some English, and they put us back in. Unfortunately, I saw many other students that that was not helpful for. But, you know, I can say I was a little bit more fortunate that although my mom didn't speak English, but she had the basic foundations in Spanish that she just kept on trying at home. And then I also tried to learn everything. I was like, okay, I got to learn about, you know. So, I was in the ESL program for several years. Then I graduated out of it, I think, maybe second or third grade. And it transitioned into the AIG program, the Academic and Intellectually Gifted. And there was a group of other students that we grew up with that were also part of the ESL program that were in that as well. So, it was just a lot of that focus on education and trying to learn. And so, that was just elementary school. Like I said, being the oldest, I was always a para arriba para abajo with a single mom. The father figures that stepped in were obviously mis tíos, and so, I would love to be with them outside. You would not see Hannia in the traditional role of being in the kitchen. My mom would always be like, Hannia, come and learn how to cook. And I would look from a distance, and I'm like, okay, I know the basics. I know how to do eggs. And then I would, I'm like, ma, I have homework. Tengo mucha tarea. And so, I would go back into the room, go do my homework. And when I finished that, then I would be outside. You would see Hannia, there was a storage next to the trailer, and you would see Hannia on top of the roof and jumping from the roof and playing with my male cousins and yeah, just doing the non-traditional female roles. And it was a little bit different with my younger sister because she loved to cook. She loved learning all the traditional dishes that was going on in the kitchen. So yeah, that's what you would see. Hannia would be out there throwing rocks. We would just be using our imagination outside and just wandering around with my cousins. And then there was the school, so my focus was school, family, school, family. It continued all through middle school as well, and then high school the same way, very much inclined to education. Middle school is when I started learning a little bit more about clubs, like Beta Club, and obviously in part because of the academics. But in high school is when we started seeing more different types of clubs because middle school it was the academics, but then other areas that I started desarrollando my leadership was in the communities of faith, when I was 12. Which was something we didn't grow up with. My mom never talked about religion, none of that. Like, we never knew about churches. It was until about--. I was 11 or 12, that one of my uncles got married, and his wife was going to church. It was funny, because they would always take me, I was their mini chaperone when they were dating. So everywhere they were going, they would take me. And so, one of the places that they started taking me was at a Community of Faith in Asheboro, about 30 minutes from Siler City. And so, I remember the first day I went to that congregation, I saw youth about my age that were playing music. At that time, I was also in band in school, playing the trumpet, the quietest musical instrument around.
DV: Sure. [Laughter].
HB: And I remember seeing a kid about my age. I was 11, and he was 13. And he was up there. And he was playing the instrument. It sounded so cool. Other kids my age was playing piano. I was like, oh my gosh. I want a space. I want to be here and see other things. And so, within that space, I quickly asked the leaders they call them I think ushers in English but at the church they would call them diáconos or servidores and I was like I want to help. Put me wherever, and they were like okay we'll do that. And Hannia was up there sweeping in church, and every service they would have Hannia in childcare in the back and in sala-cuna or the nursery. And so, I would be out there and I would love engaging and they would talk about, okay you know Sunday school, teach this to the children, learn about this. So I was doing that but then also learning some of the other things that the church leadership were doing and I loved seeing that, and I loved starting getting engaged into it at an early age. It was the church treasurer, and they were like, do you know how to write properly? Do you know how to do this? And I was like, yes, I love it, I love it. You see, Hannia in that context very much engaged. So that started middle school age. And then high school, it continued. But then in high school, that's where other clubs were available. That was like FBLA, Future Business Leaders of America. There was obviously Beta Club. I was briefly in HOSA, Health Occupational Students, something like that. It was very brief. But then the other one that really stood out for me, it was called AIM Club, Action, Inspiration, Motivation. And so, at that time, there were, everybody, I guess, unofficially called it the Hispanic club, because it was mostly Hispanics and mostly immigrant students. The first year I was there, I was excited. I was seeing everybody. Everybody engaged and that looked like me, because in the other clubs, I was the only Hispanic. And because I joined that group, there were other Hispanic kids that were coming in. But in this one it was all of us Hispanics. And so, I went in there, I think it was year two that I went in there, or year three, I don't remember, but then I became president for that club. And then at the same time becoming president for FBLA and learning more about the leadership, learning more about the roles, how do meetings run, with FBLA, everything about business and things like that. And so, and that's where I met, his name was Donald Byrne, and then he comes into my life a couple years later. But after high school, I got pregnant at an early age. I was 17, so it was my last year of high school. And how would I say it? Thankfully, all my other friends that were part of, by that time it was called SLI, Scholars Latino Initiative with UNC, for the most part, they were also the same students that were with me in the ESL program, in elementary school AIG program. They were also in there, several of them DACAmented and things like that, which is another group that we were in in high school. Thankfully by high school, those who were in there and fulfilled certain requirements, although they were undocumented, where able to go to the university. And so that's where my pause kind of ended. At the high school level, thankfully, I was able to graduate, but by that time I became a mother. Unfortunately, not only within family but with other folks I would get a lot of comments like, okay, this is the end of your life. This is it. This is over for you. And I remember trying to, I was like, okay, maybe I can't go to university, maybe I can go to a local community college. And I applied, and I got rejected. I got a letter that said because I didn't have a social security number and I was like, pero porque no? So, I was like, okay, so what do I do now, like--. And so at that time me ajunté con el padre de mi hijo. So, I got together with my son's dad. We were together for a brief couple of years. There were a couple of years of I would say just pause. A little bit of darkness throughout those years, but then I got married. Couple years, I got married in 2012, two years after I graduated. I met my now husband. And I'm not gonna say it was a fairytale love story because there were a couple of hardships in the beginning as well. But within, let's say year one, year two of our marriage, that's where they passed the deferred action. So at that point, I was able to go back to school. If I wanted to I could go to work. I could pursue so many other things, and so, by that year was I had just had my daughter, my second child. And so not only the need for a household, taking care of our household expenses, but then also an opportunity for me to get out of the house. I started going back to work. I loved to work. I was trying to learn not only the basics, but other things and it was easy for me to keep on picking up. It was a little bit hard in the beginning because a lot of folks se desesperaban like employers that they would get a little bit frustrated because I was also learning the gap.
DV: And this was around 2014?
HB: 2014, ’13 yeah. And there were a good several jobs that dismissed me in the beginning. I was like, man, but I want to, I want to learn, I'm trying to learn this, things like that. A lot of: you're not compatible, or we're cutting back positions and roles, and we’re like, okay. At that time, that's when I decided to go back to school, and I went to CCCC, Central Carolina Community College. That would have been around, that would have been around 2016, I believe, where I went to get my nursing aid certificate. After that I started, I moved back to Siler City and I was working at night at a nursing home, and coincidentally, I--. how would I describe it to you? So, it's a dead-end street where I used to live. On the sides of that street there were the apartments and that the end of the street was a nursing home. So, I lived in those apartments and the nursing home was there. So, at night I was working there. And during the day, obviously, my kids were at school one of them, the other one was still small, but family was helping me with her. And I would notice that in that apartment complex, the maintenance man was almost unofficially in charge. And so, but there were some tenant issues that were going on. And one day the owner actually was there. No, his name was Tom Smith. The day that I met Tom Smith was when we were urgently trying to find a place. We, being my younger sister and I, and we were trying to find a place on our own because we couldn't be at my mom's house. It was too crowded. And we were desperately trying to apply. And we were calling. And we're like, we're really interested. We really want to get in there. And then, I don't know why, but the owner went to the unit that we were at. He's like, I wanted to see what was this commotion about two sisters so urgently trying to get an apartment. Like what's the big deal? But he just, I guess he didn't realize that it was a big step for us. It was not a luxury apartment. The homes are--. They’re still there, those apartments are still there, but they're one of the oldest apartment complexes in Siler City. And so, he went there, and because of my observation of how the process went when you move into an apartment, when he went in there, and I guess he just, I don't know what he expected out of two Hispanic young ladies coming into an apartment on their own. And I was like, okay, I'm ready for the movement inspection, and I need you to fix this, this, this, and that. And hey, I was pointing things out in the apartment. And he's like, how do you know that? And I'm like, oh, we did this whenever I moved in somewhere else and he's like, oh okay. He's like where are you working at now? I told him I was working over there. And I remember just blurting out like well whenever you need help just reach out to me, and he did literally within that week. He's like, what about I give you a contract out. And that's when I started into the housing.
DV: Okay.
HB: And I was Liaison Services. And so, I essentially--.
DV: You clearly impressed him. [Laughter].
HB: Something happened, but I was very loud and there was another person that had been there with the team that did not like me. And every chance she got she let him know, let the owner know, and copy him in there like she's not listening, she's not learning, and I'm wasting my time with her. And because she was tasked with training me with the technical things. And there were some things that I still, it hadn't clicked yet, but I was trying. I was like, oh my gosh, I'm sure. And then my husband-- like I would read her emails and I would be crying. And my husband would be like, why don't you just quit? I'm like, no, it's because I'm not going to learn. This is free training on housing and things like that. He's like, oh my gosh. So, I was climbing my way through that, but I was trying to learn everything that had to do with housing, not only with the process, with people moving in, the inspections, working with con--. Vendors, things like that, so just taking advantage of that. I eventually transitioned from working in the nursing home to housing. I had to go because I was in a dementia unit and a lot of my patients there were passing away, and it was just a very hard thing for me.
DV: Oh, yeah.
HB: So as much as I loved it, I was like, I can't, but I then transitioned into housing. And that's where I was learning more about it and being very vocal, and I would talk to the owner and be like hey, you know, we started learning about how to do the inspections and then prioritizing. And I would be working with him, and I would be like, hey, Tom, you need to fix this. You need to fix that. And then because a lot of the people that live there, they're like, why do you care? I'm like, because this is housing, like, you can't have a hole in your roof. You can’t have your door falling apart and things like that. And I understood the business part of it, because looking at the numbers, there was no money coming in because the homes were averaging between $300 to $500 a month. $500 for a three bedroom but, you know, not a lot of repairs have been done for several years. So, I started pushing to do a couple of repairs in the time that we were in there. A couple of--. About a year or so later, that's when I reached out to Cardinal Chase, which was my second place in housing. I don't recall what was the incident, but I remember going to the office and talking to the manager there. I was talking to her because I was looking for a different apartment for somebody. And I explained to her, I'm actually with Brookwood Farms--. Brookwood Apartments, and this so-and-so needs this. And she's like, how do you know about housing? I'm like, oh, this is what I'm doing here. And then she's like, okay, well, I'm leaving. So, do you want this job? [Laughter]. So, I was like, are you serious? And she's like, yeah. She told me where to submit my résumé. And I was like, okay, this is crazy. I’m going to do it, so I did it. And then by Monday of the next week, they were like, interview. I was on the job within like two, three weeks.
DV: Wow.
HB: And it continued my role with management, learning more about that, a lot of training in that program. But throughout these roles, I was also very intentional about advocating for the people we were serving. And it's something that I've carried desde pequeña. And then I felt that responsibility and my role in them and really letting the owners know, hey, it's much more than your money, much more than the rents. And within that second role, since it was low income housing, I would try to figure out ways with the tenants there about moving in. During their stay, trying to come up with payment plans, because there were so many people that were like I don't have a full amount of money. I'm like, it's okay let's breathe and I would joke around with them I'm like I'm not going kick you out unless you kick yourself out. And they're like oh my gosh, thank you. I'm like no, really, don't thank me. This is the least that I can do because this is your home. This is not just something that I can just up and say, screw y'all, go ahead and leave. So, it was around that time I was with Cardinal Chase. In comes Don Byrne. Around that time frame, Donald Byrne who was one of the teachers from Jordan Matthews at AIM Club, that was almost like a supervisor during their club meetings, that he reached out. And he's like, hey, you know, can I ask you to join me on a meeting one day with the Hispanic Liaison? And I was like, okay, I've heard of the Liaison because my mom always uses their services. And sure, let me go to a meeting. He's like, it’s a board meeting. And they're looking for directors. And he had reached out to another former classmate as well. And within meeting one, they were like, do you, would you want to be crazy enough to join us? And I'm like, of course, thank you. So, I joined the Board of Directors. At that time, it would have been 2016, with the Hispanic Liaison. And I think by the next year, that's when I became Board Chair with the Liaison.
DV: Did you continue your other job in housing during this time?
HB: Yeah, it was during that time, because I didn't join the Liaison officially as a staff member until 2021. So, during that time, 2017, the Liaison--. 2015, 2016, there was a brief year where the Liaison closed. And so, I came in when they reopened. And so, the ’17, the organization was kicking back up and I would hear the reports from Ilana, from Janet, about all the work that they were doing, and I was like, just very impressed. Not only about the work they were doing but their passion for it, with work in our community, the issues that they were addressing. And so coincidentally around that same time, that's where Hispanic leaders from Sanford reached out to us in Siler City about opening up, well discussing opening up a different organization in this area, or a satellite office for the Hispanic Liaison because there's no organization.
DV: Here in Sanford?
HB: In Sanford, yeah. There was in 2000--. I don't know what, in the early 2000s, there was a Hispanic Task Force here in Lee County, but it dissolved within a few years. So, after that, there was nothing in this area. And a lot of Lee County residents were going to Siler City to get, ask for help.
DV: Like what kind of help? What does the Liaison do, or what do you do with the Liaison?
HB: So, there's different aspects of the kind of work that we do because we work with our community, but we also work with local nonprofits, government agencies, law enforcement agencies. So, with our community, we like to say we're the Google of our community. Todo. We do literally everything. Let's say for a community member comes in and asks for assistance. Generally, they might come for, where can I find assistance for X, Y, Z? And so, if we are aware of a resource, we let them know and we get them connected to the resources, or if the resources are not available, we become that resource. But it can be anywhere between housing issues, education, it can be anywhere between mental health, health as well. We also talk about documents, helping community members obtain important documents for themselves, for their children, for their family. That could be either US documents or foreign documents. We do a lot of interpretation. If, let's say, a community member comes to us and says, hey, look, I've tried to reach out to this agency. Pero no me entienden. Like, they don't understand what I'm trying to say. And so, we hear their story and then we essentially translate it to something that XYZ system can understand.
DV: I see.
HB: And so, we help a lot with financial aid assistance with the hospitals. In the peak of the pandemic, we did a lot of emergency assistance for rentals, utilities, hospital assistance as well. We had a solid-- currently have also a solidarity fund that were, that's for mixed status families or no status families where the primary income earner was impacted, the family was impacted financially and so many community members were not, you know, not eligible or there was a disruption with them getting some financial assistance during the pandemic time period. And so, it was a way to help our community as well, but those are just some minor examples. We also have a free immigration clinic, so a community member can reach out to us. We try to get them connected with a free initial consultation with an immigration attorney. We also get them connected if, depending on their case, try to give them information, for example, like the Battered Immigrant Project with NC Legal Aid, for several asylum seekers, getting them information about the immigrant refugee project. So many different projects that our community members don't know are available. But then the biggest thing is education and helping our community members go and understand the process. US systems that they might not understand or they might need a little bit more guidance because the ultimate goal is for our community members to feel empowered and that they have a space with a Hispanic Liaison that they can feel at home, but then they also could feel heard and that we're advocating for them and regardless of the field, so we don't limit ourselves to just one field.
DV: What an amazing resource for the community to have.
HB: Yes, and we work, that's with the community, and then also we work, like I said, with other non-profits, government agencies, businesses as well, so they can also--. How do I say? We give them guidance and suggestions, recommendations as to, hey, this is how you can better serve our community, or you need to consider this other perspective to try to break down barriers, miscommunication, misinformation. A lot of misconceptions of, oh, that's a cultural thing, actually, it's not. For example, oh, it's a cultural thing that Hispanics live all together in one house. And I'm like, actually, no. There's so many other factors that's out of a necessity that they are having to be together. And breaking down those kinds of examples. Or why is it that the child is interpreting? No, we don't. And because--. We faced that with my mother. I can't talk to you. You're a little kid. And there might not have been interpretation services available for my mom. Or even now, within systems that, let's say, she's going to a medical appointment or she's going to get some services, the interpreter might be there, and the provider is there or whoever is providing the service but it's the interpreter looking at my mom and the provider not once do they look at my mom at any point. And I was like, okay, so--.
DV: Are they here for me?
HB: Yeah, and not only that but then my mom starts, for example, like she starts talking to an interpreter and the interpreter was like, oh, I don't know. I don't know. Or actually, ask the provider. And then they're just kind of like, mm, no sé si le pregunto.
DV: There’s tension.
HB: Yeah, and sometimes, even at those points of contact, systems are improving. Not saying anything, but there's certain points in the process that need to be addressed and need to be improved. And so, we bring in those recommendations with agencies and say, hey, this can work better. Ultimately with a goal of positively impacting our community and that they feel empowered and comfortable at the point of service. Many times, I get agency leaders that say, well it's not that we're not trying, I'm like, no sweetie, it's not about that. It's also the impression that somebody gets when they're interacting with either staff or leadership. You may feel the same way if you go somewhere else and people are disconnected with you when you're getting a service. Thankfully you are able to speak the language and you can say, hey, what's up with that? You know, hey, what's going on with this? But many of times it's not even the language barriers. It's a lot about the relationships, the trust that's within providers. I always talk about the example of my mother and my children. Although they're in a dual language program, they understand Spanish and they're trying their best to speak Spanish, but there are times that they, each of them are speaking their own language, but they still understand each other because they've got that connection, they have that relationship. And my mom knows my child's intention, my child knows my mom's intention as to what we're trying to get to. And it's all about the relationship, versus it's, oh, here you go, and that's it.
DV: Can you pick out certain things in your background that you think helped to prepare you, that were part of your journey and led you to this pathway to leadership that you are in now? You mentioned for instance, translating for your mother and that is still something you do today in this role, you translate for other people, navigate systems, things like that.
HB: One of the biggest things--. And I constantly have to remind myself, because if you look at other places they think, oh, leadership is with the degree, or if you have something behind your name, or you--. I would say the non-conventional ways that leadership is portrayed. But leadership, from what I have seen, is you are getting yourself down and dirty with your community. You're there on the ground. And what you're doing is you're eventually translating to people that don't know what's going on and letting them know this is what’s happening, and this is what needs to go next. And this is what needs to go next. And sometimes I mention within people, if I, when I say deputy director, in my head I was like, maybe that's just for other people to understand where I am. But eventually, I'm just another person in the community. I'm just another--. I'm just like you and I. Which is funny, because my mom would always tell me, eres una directora. You've got to look like one. You got to act like one. I'm like, wait, what? What do you mean, ma? And she's like, no, you got to look like a directora. Almost like if I have to be in a suit and in a tie or I don't know, heels or like a businessperson that we would see at FBLA, you know, the Future Business Leaders of America. That's the image that they portray. A leader is this and you know, and you know that they’re here.
DV: They look the part traditionally.
HB: Yes. And that their presence can be felt every time they're in the room and like they're the highlight of everything and I'm like, I don't like that. And I do remember, I'm like, okay, I'm learning, that's what I need to be. And it's funny because sometimes people come around like, okay, who's the one in charge? [Laughter]. And I'm like, actually, that's me. But it's understanding that it's a role, a responsibility. It's not about the title, it just says that the title means you have more responsibilities. The responsibilities for the people that you're with, that you're working with, that you're trying to make an impact, to change. That's where I would have truly embraced it. Coming back within leadership, like I said. After, when was it, 2013, 2015, it's been the non-conventional leaders. I would always have some classmates say, within that group that graduated, there was one classmate that said, you're smart, but you don't--. Ah, what was it? He's like, you're a nerd, but you don't act like a nerd. He meant in the most positive way, he's like, you're so smart, but you don't act like a traditional person. And he was just like, I don't get it. I just don't get it. But like I said, just coming back, obviously it took several years for me to embrace that. That it's not what is portrayed out there. It's about, como dicen, okay you face the challenges, okay there's moments of, dang, like did I do it right? Am I doing this right? Dang, you question yourself like, maybe someone better could be here or, man, it's stressing me out with working with these people because, you know, I consider that I don't come at an aggressive stance when I'm working with new people, but then there's some people that are just, wow. You question yourself like, why are you here, respectfully? Like you're in this role that you have a big responsibility on making an impact on people and you close yourselves to it. And we were joking around with a colleague and my husband, actually yesterday. You know what, I realized I've got a list of people that don't like me. And he's like yeah, I realized that too. And he's like but I guess we just need to know that we're not going to be liked by everybody and that's okay. And it's about picking ourselves back up and realize okay, what haven't I figured out yet? Or what is it that I need to know more? Because obviously we're humans. And self-doubt comes and you know, hesitancy comes. But it's like, okay, these are legitimate questions, regardless of whether people look at you or talk down on you. I mentioned when they--. Just your presence around them, they make you feel like why is this idiot here? Because you see that, and growing up I would always, you know, everybody's working together, and it's been a learning curve. Learning curve that some people just don't want to work with you and it's okay. And it's okay and you know, you got to step back and look at the big picture of what you're trying to do.
DV: You face the challenge.
HB: Yeah and just like with everything there's a huge learning curve, and it's about having patience with yourself and it's harder than just, how would I say it, it's hard but at the same time it's important, it's valuable. Because you go through that moment and then you're looking at all the different points and then--. I always call it the dots are connecting in my brain. And understanding, okay this is different routes I need to take, these are different responses I need to do to whatever these challenges or opportunities are, and then you keep on going. And then you can do whatever you got to do. Si vas a limpiar, limpia. If you got to go and do something else, self-care, you do it, and then you get back up. You get back up and keep on trying. It's about not giving up in that part. I would say if there's, whoever's listening, if you are in that role, it's a matter of showing grace and kindness to other people because we're all just really trying, trying to make a difference, trying to make a change. Not only for ourselves, I always--. Obviously now I'm a mother, and I always think about the change for my children, the generations to come, my neighbors, my community. It's so cliche, I love it. How they say, I cannot change the world, but I can change my world. And my world is my family, my friends, my community.
DV: Well, speaking of your community, you were in all of these clubs in high school, then you were working in housing, then you became Deputy Director here at El Vínculo, the Hispanic Liaison. But more recently you were also Chair of ICAC, the Immigrant Community Advisory Council in Siler City. How did that come about?
HB: So, with ICAC, the Hispanic liaison had been involved with the Building Integrated Communities project with UNC in collaboration with Town of Siler City. That was around 2017 when it started. Out of that, there was an action plan, essentially telling the town of Siler City, here are some recommendations of how you can integrate immigrant communities into Siler City. Within the action plan, there's some Siler City action items, and then there's some other outside agencies that are involved in it, so it's just like a collective work. So, obviously the pandemic hit and there was a couple of pauses for one or two years and then in 2021, last year, Building Integrated Communities and El Vínculo Hispano approached the town of Siler City with a resolution to build an advisory board or committee to the town of Siler City to help guide them through this action plan, to give them recommendations with the ultimate goal of really pushing the action items among other responsibilities. So, when they made out the call for members of that committee, I submitted my letter of interest. To be part of this committee, you have to be an immigrant yourself, a child of an immigrant, a grandchild of an immigrant, having a close connection to Siler City. Either you live, or you work there or have a very specific interest with Siler City. That was pretty much the biggest responsibility, the biggest requirements really, and of course submitting the letter of interest for it. And so, I applied, and I became part of the inaugural group. There were seven of us and within our first meeting, that's where the group elected me to be their board chair. And so, within this first year, it's been a lot about learning. Learning about our role and truly understanding it on what does it mean to be in an advisory capacity? What are the regulations? But then also understanding and asking, well, why are those regulations in place? And so that we can fulfill our role to the best of our abilities. Within that group, there are wonderful professionals. There's an immigration attorney, there is a local law office manager. There is someone that is in marketing, someone that's a business owner veteran, someone that's in the school system. So, these are all professionals within our community involved in this group with different expertise and different insights to share a portion of our immigrant perspective in our community. And that's where we are today. Like I said, I'm chair over that advisory committee.
DV: Great. In your pathway to these leadership positions, do you have any challenges that you can pick out that you would want to share? Or maybe other lessons that you've learned along the way that you would want to share?
HB: Okay, well definitely there's going to be a lot of barriers that may come into play. It could be anywhere between access to education or maybe, especially if you never had that role model, which is very hard, or a mentor. But don't be afraid and ask. That was one of the things that they would always say: es que la Hannia habla mucho, she talks so much. And she will go and talk to anybody and it's not that I'm--. I might not seem like it, but I'm actually pretty shy. [Laughter]. I still like, okay, let me ask this, I need to understand this, because um so you'll find barriers either because you might not have the tools but that doesn't mean that you can't have the tools. Or you might know the resources yet. And so you'll find that. And what does that mean? That means approach people in leadership. And ask those questions. And keep on asking them until you understand. If they get annoyed, let them get annoyed. But no, you're going to keep on asking the questions, because it's important that you understand it because ultimately what's gonna happen is you will also be the advocate for the next person that comes in and share that, pass that information along, that knowledge along. And just like with anything, there's always that learning curve with anything new that you start. They say anything new with a business, anything new in education. I think that a pattern, a trend, that I've seen within the first three years of you doing anything, it's a lot about learning. Have grace with yourself while you're learning. If you can push through that, year one is a lot about, okay, here I am, I'm on the ground, and you're running. [Laughter]. Year two is your evaluation year. Okay, what happened year one? Because year one, you're going in there, you're going passionately. And year two, you're evaluating what's the processes? How did it work? How did it flow? What were the barriers that you found? What were some of the trends that you noticed? What were some of the activities that you saw for yourself, with your community, while you were doing whatever work that you were doing, and then just take a moment to step back and be like, okay, now what's going to be my response to it? What can I do next? And some of those you might not have an answer to, and that's totally fine. And then you keep on. Right now, and I can say that because we're going on to year two with the Immigrant Advisory Committee, going onto year two with our Lee County office, year two with my little one. He's that child that we fooled ourselves into thinking oh he's going be the same as the other two and we've got this and we're experienced parents and we're learning. But you keep on, you keep on and caring for yourself, you know yourself. Surround yourself with people that do care about you and people that will encourage you and people that will, maybe they might not have that answer for you, but that they're your safe space. You know to keep on keeping on.
DV: Speaking of keeping on, what do you envision for the roles that you're in right now in the future? Things you might want to accomplish, things you'd like to see your community have access to or accomplish. What do you see the future looking like, or what would you hope for the future?
HB: Well, within my role with the organization, still a lot of learning. Learning anything from A to Z. I love what I do. Growing up that was my goal. I always envisioned myself wanting to lead an organization, lead an organization, manage an organization that had the social aspect, and I am in this role. And I never thought that I would be, especially in the dark three years of my life. I was like, I am never going to accomplish that. Keep on learning that, being the best that I can for this role in this organization that I am in. With the community, giving the very best of my abilities to my community. I also see my community rising and being empowered by all the work that we do, being inspired, inspiring each other, and showcasing all the beautiful things that we have, especially in our culture and anything to do with the food, definitely, the music, the arts, the professionals that we have, the brilliant minds that might not be in traditional roles but darn, they are good at what they do. Highlighting that but then also collaborating with other communities. There is so much beauty, even when people might not think it. My son does not think it, my twelve-year-old. He is like, man this small town in boring, but there are so many beautiful members in our community. Being together, working together. There’s always going to be the hustle but there is also going to be life and enjoying. Unfortunately, vulnerable communities, communities of color--. In what we say, okay Hannia we have got to be realistic, and yeah, we are being realistic because there are different barriers that one would say would prevent our community to live that. That is when we say, okay we are going to strive for life and joy and everything that we deserve, but we are also going to hustle and raise our voices and say this is not correct. We are going to be working together collectively to make change, to make movement, make noise regardless of whoever gets frustrated, and sometimes we have to move quietly and that is totally fine. Seeing that grow in our community, and then for myself at the end of it all, I think I told you but, quiero un ranchito, I want a little casita. [Laughter]. Just like out in the country, with at most two acres, pues tan poco quiero exagerar. I just want a place that is not too big. Just enough for myself and for at least two other guests when they need to go there. My kids swear up and down that as soon as they get old, they are going to get their own places. I want that for them, but I know, especially because I would see it growing up my mother was an unofficial matriarch of our family in Siler City so our aunts and uncles would go there, pay their respects. Then they would leave and go do their things. More of like, hey big sister I am here I love you. Alright you are good? Yeah, and then you are done. Just a place that our family can go. I envision a patio that has enough gathering spaces for everybody to be out there, having their own hamaca, having a place for the kids to go and play. I want to see all the young and the old together. I want the younger ones to hear the stories of the old folks because they have some crazy stories let me tell you. [Laughter]. Learning from their experience and just a space. A space where they can be family. I will give a hand into gardening maybe. Not really, maybe just the basic plant because I don’t want to kill the plants. I’ve thought about a couple animalitos de granja, and a lot of plants, I like plants. You will just find me there.
DV: Okay, Hannia. Hannia, thank you very much for sharing your story with me.
HB: Thank you, Daniel.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Transcriber: Sofia Godoy and Daniel Velásquez
Interview Date: 2022 November 18
Date of Transcription: 2023 July 17 / Revisions: 2023 October 9
Es: Transcripción
Daniel Velásquez: Hannia Benítez is Deputy Director at El Vínculo Hispano, the Hispanic Liaison, and Chair of ICAC, the Immigrant Community Advisory Council at Siler City. I'm Daniel Velásquez. I am interviewing you today for your oral history. Thank you for being with me today. It is November 18, 2022.
Hannia Benítez: Thank you for having me, Daniel.
DV: Hannia, let's get started by talking about your early life, your background, and set the context for us.
HB: Okay, so my name is Hannia Benítez. I was born in Guatemala, but I came to the United States at an early age. I grew up in Chatham County, North Carolina. I am the oldest daughter de mi mami and the oldest granddaughter out of more than twenty grandchildren. I identify as Hispanic Latina. I am currently deputy director for the Hispanic Liaison.
DV: Awesome. Great.
HB: And I am a mother of three beautiful children. I have a twelve-year-old, a ten-year-old, and a two-year-old. Married for ten years. And we also have a little fur baby, Milo. [Laughter].
DV: Great, so you were born in Guatemala. How long have you lived in United States then?
HB: It’s been over 25 years. I was born in ’92. I came to the United States when I was about four or five years old, but our first thought was Los Angeles, where my grandmother was living, and she currently lives there. And then a few years, within one or two years, then we moved here to North Carolina to join the rest of mis tíos, my mother’s youngest brothers and sisters that actually lived in Siler City, so that is where I grew up in.
DV: Maybe just tell me a little bit more about growing up here in North Carolina, in Siler City.
HB: Well, how do I describe it? Well, I guess when we--. I guess just from the beginning, so just to give you context my mother was a single mother with two daughters. My other sister, that is two years younger than I. She used to be a, what would you call it, like a pre-school teacher in Guatemala, so coming to the area she would, when we first got here, she would try to teach us, well mostly me, the basics of el abecedario, the alphabet, the numbers. Everything, she would do it in Spanish because she tells me, te lo voy a enseñar en español and allá en la escuela lo aprendes en inglés, so I’m going to teach it to you in Spanish, and you need to learn it in English in school. And I did just that. Whenever she came here, she worked for--. She started working several odd jobs, but then stayed at the chicken plant at that time. She worked there for several years. The biggest priorities, the biggest important things that she would say, edúquense, you know, educate yourself, learn a lot. And so, our biggest focus was on that, just learning as much as we could, learning the language, learning so many different topics. In school, being the oldest, I often found myself being like the interpreter or the translator for my mom, and then it translated with other family members. And because they would have this expression, like, para eso vas a la escuela. That's why you're going to school. So, you need to know what it is. And sometimes it would start with school messages that were sent home, and they were only in English. And she's like, ¿Qué dice? What did that say? And so, I would tell her mom, they're talking about this, this, this, this and that and trying to get her to understand what they were trying to say and what they wanted her to do. And then that then translated to the other aspects of our lives where I started having to understand how other systems work to be able to explain it to my mom, but at the same time there's still always that passion in school I loved. I'm not going to say reading, no I love reading, it was writing that I just struggled with it because there were so many thoughts in my mind, I was like I don’t know how to put it bien. Yeah, I always loved it. We were in the traditional ESL program. When I say traditional, it would be they pull all of us that are native Spanish speakers. They pull us out of the class. They teach us some English, and they put us back in. Unfortunately, I saw many other students that that was not helpful for. But, you know, I can say I was a little bit more fortunate that although my mom didn't speak English, but she had the basic foundations in Spanish that she just kept on trying at home. And then I also tried to learn everything. I was like, okay, I got to learn about, you know. So, I was in the ESL program for several years. Then I graduated out of it, I think, maybe second or third grade. And it transitioned into the AIG program, the Academic and Intellectually Gifted. And there was a group of other students that we grew up with that were also part of the ESL program that were in that as well. So, it was just a lot of that focus on education and trying to learn. And so, that was just elementary school. Like I said, being the oldest, I was always a para arriba para abajo with a single mom. The father figures that stepped in were obviously mis tíos, and so, I would love to be with them outside. You would not see Hannia in the traditional role of being in the kitchen. My mom would always be like, Hannia, come and learn how to cook. And I would look from a distance, and I'm like, okay, I know the basics. I know how to do eggs. And then I would, I'm like, ma, I have homework. Tengo mucha tarea. And so, I would go back into the room, go do my homework. And when I finished that, then I would be outside. You would see Hannia, there was a storage next to the trailer, and you would see Hannia on top of the roof and jumping from the roof and playing with my male cousins and yeah, just doing the non-traditional female roles. And it was a little bit different with my younger sister because she loved to cook. She loved learning all the traditional dishes that was going on in the kitchen. So yeah, that's what you would see. Hannia would be out there throwing rocks. We would just be using our imagination outside and just wandering around with my cousins. And then there was the school, so my focus was school, family, school, family. It continued all through middle school as well, and then high school the same way, very much inclined to education. Middle school is when I started learning a little bit more about clubs, like Beta Club, and obviously in part because of the academics. But in high school is when we started seeing more different types of clubs because middle school it was the academics, but then other areas that I started desarrollando my leadership was in the communities of faith, when I was 12. Which was something we didn't grow up with. My mom never talked about religion, none of that. Like, we never knew about churches. It was until about--. I was 11 or 12, that one of my uncles got married, and his wife was going to church. It was funny, because they would always take me, I was their mini chaperone when they were dating. So everywhere they were going, they would take me. And so, one of the places that they started taking me was at a Community of Faith in Asheboro, about 30 minutes from Siler City. And so, I remember the first day I went to that congregation, I saw youth about my age that were playing music. At that time, I was also in band in school, playing the trumpet, the quietest musical instrument around.
DV: Sure. [Laughter].
HB: And I remember seeing a kid about my age. I was 11, and he was 13. And he was up there. And he was playing the instrument. It sounded so cool. Other kids my age was playing piano. I was like, oh my gosh. I want a space. I want to be here and see other things. And so, within that space, I quickly asked the leaders they call them I think ushers in English but at the church they would call them diáconos or servidores and I was like I want to help. Put me wherever, and they were like okay we'll do that. And Hannia was up there sweeping in church, and every service they would have Hannia in childcare in the back and in sala-cuna or the nursery. And so, I would be out there and I would love engaging and they would talk about, okay you know Sunday school, teach this to the children, learn about this. So I was doing that but then also learning some of the other things that the church leadership were doing and I loved seeing that, and I loved starting getting engaged into it at an early age. It was the church treasurer, and they were like, do you know how to write properly? Do you know how to do this? And I was like, yes, I love it, I love it. You see, Hannia in that context very much engaged. So that started middle school age. And then high school, it continued. But then in high school, that's where other clubs were available. That was like FBLA, Future Business Leaders of America. There was obviously Beta Club. I was briefly in HOSA, Health Occupational Students, something like that. It was very brief. But then the other one that really stood out for me, it was called AIM Club, Action, Inspiration, Motivation. And so, at that time, there were, everybody, I guess, unofficially called it the Hispanic club, because it was mostly Hispanics and mostly immigrant students. The first year I was there, I was excited. I was seeing everybody. Everybody engaged and that looked like me, because in the other clubs, I was the only Hispanic. And because I joined that group, there were other Hispanic kids that were coming in. But in this one it was all of us Hispanics. And so, I went in there, I think it was year two that I went in there, or year three, I don't remember, but then I became president for that club. And then at the same time becoming president for FBLA and learning more about the leadership, learning more about the roles, how do meetings run, with FBLA, everything about business and things like that. And so, and that's where I met, his name was Donald Byrne, and then he comes into my life a couple years later. But after high school, I got pregnant at an early age. I was 17, so it was my last year of high school. And how would I say it? Thankfully, all my other friends that were part of, by that time it was called SLI, Scholars Latino Initiative with UNC, for the most part, they were also the same students that were with me in the ESL program, in elementary school AIG program. They were also in there, several of them DACAmented and things like that, which is another group that we were in in high school. Thankfully by high school, those who were in there and fulfilled certain requirements, although they were undocumented, where able to go to the university. And so that's where my pause kind of ended. At the high school level, thankfully, I was able to graduate, but by that time I became a mother. Unfortunately, not only within family but with other folks I would get a lot of comments like, okay, this is the end of your life. This is it. This is over for you. And I remember trying to, I was like, okay, maybe I can't go to university, maybe I can go to a local community college. And I applied, and I got rejected. I got a letter that said because I didn't have a social security number and I was like, pero porque no? So, I was like, okay, so what do I do now, like--. And so at that time me ajunté con el padre de mi hijo. So, I got together with my son's dad. We were together for a brief couple of years. There were a couple of years of I would say just pause. A little bit of darkness throughout those years, but then I got married. Couple years, I got married in 2012, two years after I graduated. I met my now husband. And I'm not gonna say it was a fairytale love story because there were a couple of hardships in the beginning as well. But within, let's say year one, year two of our marriage, that's where they passed the deferred action. So at that point, I was able to go back to school. If I wanted to I could go to work. I could pursue so many other things, and so, by that year was I had just had my daughter, my second child. And so not only the need for a household, taking care of our household expenses, but then also an opportunity for me to get out of the house. I started going back to work. I loved to work. I was trying to learn not only the basics, but other things and it was easy for me to keep on picking up. It was a little bit hard in the beginning because a lot of folks se desesperaban like employers that they would get a little bit frustrated because I was also learning the gap.
DV: And this was around 2014?
HB: 2014, ’13 yeah. And there were a good several jobs that dismissed me in the beginning. I was like, man, but I want to, I want to learn, I'm trying to learn this, things like that. A lot of: you're not compatible, or we're cutting back positions and roles, and we’re like, okay. At that time, that's when I decided to go back to school, and I went to CCCC, Central Carolina Community College. That would have been around, that would have been around 2016, I believe, where I went to get my nursing aid certificate. After that I started, I moved back to Siler City and I was working at night at a nursing home, and coincidentally, I--. how would I describe it to you? So, it's a dead-end street where I used to live. On the sides of that street there were the apartments and that the end of the street was a nursing home. So, I lived in those apartments and the nursing home was there. So, at night I was working there. And during the day, obviously, my kids were at school one of them, the other one was still small, but family was helping me with her. And I would notice that in that apartment complex, the maintenance man was almost unofficially in charge. And so, but there were some tenant issues that were going on. And one day the owner actually was there. No, his name was Tom Smith. The day that I met Tom Smith was when we were urgently trying to find a place. We, being my younger sister and I, and we were trying to find a place on our own because we couldn't be at my mom's house. It was too crowded. And we were desperately trying to apply. And we were calling. And we're like, we're really interested. We really want to get in there. And then, I don't know why, but the owner went to the unit that we were at. He's like, I wanted to see what was this commotion about two sisters so urgently trying to get an apartment. Like what's the big deal? But he just, I guess he didn't realize that it was a big step for us. It was not a luxury apartment. The homes are--. They’re still there, those apartments are still there, but they're one of the oldest apartment complexes in Siler City. And so, he went there, and because of my observation of how the process went when you move into an apartment, when he went in there, and I guess he just, I don't know what he expected out of two Hispanic young ladies coming into an apartment on their own. And I was like, okay, I'm ready for the movement inspection, and I need you to fix this, this, this, and that. And hey, I was pointing things out in the apartment. And he's like, how do you know that? And I'm like, oh, we did this whenever I moved in somewhere else and he's like, oh okay. He's like where are you working at now? I told him I was working over there. And I remember just blurting out like well whenever you need help just reach out to me, and he did literally within that week. He's like, what about I give you a contract out. And that's when I started into the housing.
DV: Okay.
HB: And I was Liaison Services. And so, I essentially--.
DV: You clearly impressed him. [Laughter].
HB: Something happened, but I was very loud and there was another person that had been there with the team that did not like me. And every chance she got she let him know, let the owner know, and copy him in there like she's not listening, she's not learning, and I'm wasting my time with her. And because she was tasked with training me with the technical things. And there were some things that I still, it hadn't clicked yet, but I was trying. I was like, oh my gosh, I'm sure. And then my husband-- like I would read her emails and I would be crying. And my husband would be like, why don't you just quit? I'm like, no, it's because I'm not going to learn. This is free training on housing and things like that. He's like, oh my gosh. So, I was climbing my way through that, but I was trying to learn everything that had to do with housing, not only with the process, with people moving in, the inspections, working with con--. Vendors, things like that, so just taking advantage of that. I eventually transitioned from working in the nursing home to housing. I had to go because I was in a dementia unit and a lot of my patients there were passing away, and it was just a very hard thing for me.
DV: Oh, yeah.
HB: So as much as I loved it, I was like, I can't, but I then transitioned into housing. And that's where I was learning more about it and being very vocal, and I would talk to the owner and be like hey, you know, we started learning about how to do the inspections and then prioritizing. And I would be working with him, and I would be like, hey, Tom, you need to fix this. You need to fix that. And then because a lot of the people that live there, they're like, why do you care? I'm like, because this is housing, like, you can't have a hole in your roof. You can’t have your door falling apart and things like that. And I understood the business part of it, because looking at the numbers, there was no money coming in because the homes were averaging between $300 to $500 a month. $500 for a three bedroom but, you know, not a lot of repairs have been done for several years. So, I started pushing to do a couple of repairs in the time that we were in there. A couple of--. About a year or so later, that's when I reached out to Cardinal Chase, which was my second place in housing. I don't recall what was the incident, but I remember going to the office and talking to the manager there. I was talking to her because I was looking for a different apartment for somebody. And I explained to her, I'm actually with Brookwood Farms--. Brookwood Apartments, and this so-and-so needs this. And she's like, how do you know about housing? I'm like, oh, this is what I'm doing here. And then she's like, okay, well, I'm leaving. So, do you want this job? [Laughter]. So, I was like, are you serious? And she's like, yeah. She told me where to submit my résumé. And I was like, okay, this is crazy. I’m going to do it, so I did it. And then by Monday of the next week, they were like, interview. I was on the job within like two, three weeks.
DV: Wow.
HB: And it continued my role with management, learning more about that, a lot of training in that program. But throughout these roles, I was also very intentional about advocating for the people we were serving. And it's something that I've carried desde pequeña. And then I felt that responsibility and my role in them and really letting the owners know, hey, it's much more than your money, much more than the rents. And within that second role, since it was low income housing, I would try to figure out ways with the tenants there about moving in. During their stay, trying to come up with payment plans, because there were so many people that were like I don't have a full amount of money. I'm like, it's okay let's breathe and I would joke around with them I'm like I'm not going kick you out unless you kick yourself out. And they're like oh my gosh, thank you. I'm like no, really, don't thank me. This is the least that I can do because this is your home. This is not just something that I can just up and say, screw y'all, go ahead and leave. So, it was around that time I was with Cardinal Chase. In comes Don Byrne. Around that time frame, Donald Byrne who was one of the teachers from Jordan Matthews at AIM Club, that was almost like a supervisor during their club meetings, that he reached out. And he's like, hey, you know, can I ask you to join me on a meeting one day with the Hispanic Liaison? And I was like, okay, I've heard of the Liaison because my mom always uses their services. And sure, let me go to a meeting. He's like, it’s a board meeting. And they're looking for directors. And he had reached out to another former classmate as well. And within meeting one, they were like, do you, would you want to be crazy enough to join us? And I'm like, of course, thank you. So, I joined the Board of Directors. At that time, it would have been 2016, with the Hispanic Liaison. And I think by the next year, that's when I became Board Chair with the Liaison.
DV: Did you continue your other job in housing during this time?
HB: Yeah, it was during that time, because I didn't join the Liaison officially as a staff member until 2021. So, during that time, 2017, the Liaison--. 2015, 2016, there was a brief year where the Liaison closed. And so, I came in when they reopened. And so, the ’17, the organization was kicking back up and I would hear the reports from Ilana, from Janet, about all the work that they were doing, and I was like, just very impressed. Not only about the work they were doing but their passion for it, with work in our community, the issues that they were addressing. And so coincidentally around that same time, that's where Hispanic leaders from Sanford reached out to us in Siler City about opening up, well discussing opening up a different organization in this area, or a satellite office for the Hispanic Liaison because there's no organization.
DV: Here in Sanford?
HB: In Sanford, yeah. There was in 2000--. I don't know what, in the early 2000s, there was a Hispanic Task Force here in Lee County, but it dissolved within a few years. So, after that, there was nothing in this area. And a lot of Lee County residents were going to Siler City to get, ask for help.
DV: Like what kind of help? What does the Liaison do, or what do you do with the Liaison?
HB: So, there's different aspects of the kind of work that we do because we work with our community, but we also work with local nonprofits, government agencies, law enforcement agencies. So, with our community, we like to say we're the Google of our community. Todo. We do literally everything. Let's say for a community member comes in and asks for assistance. Generally, they might come for, where can I find assistance for X, Y, Z? And so, if we are aware of a resource, we let them know and we get them connected to the resources, or if the resources are not available, we become that resource. But it can be anywhere between housing issues, education, it can be anywhere between mental health, health as well. We also talk about documents, helping community members obtain important documents for themselves, for their children, for their family. That could be either US documents or foreign documents. We do a lot of interpretation. If, let's say, a community member comes to us and says, hey, look, I've tried to reach out to this agency. Pero no me entienden. Like, they don't understand what I'm trying to say. And so, we hear their story and then we essentially translate it to something that XYZ system can understand.
DV: I see.
HB: And so, we help a lot with financial aid assistance with the hospitals. In the peak of the pandemic, we did a lot of emergency assistance for rentals, utilities, hospital assistance as well. We had a solid-- currently have also a solidarity fund that were, that's for mixed status families or no status families where the primary income earner was impacted, the family was impacted financially and so many community members were not, you know, not eligible or there was a disruption with them getting some financial assistance during the pandemic time period. And so, it was a way to help our community as well, but those are just some minor examples. We also have a free immigration clinic, so a community member can reach out to us. We try to get them connected with a free initial consultation with an immigration attorney. We also get them connected if, depending on their case, try to give them information, for example, like the Battered Immigrant Project with NC Legal Aid, for several asylum seekers, getting them information about the immigrant refugee project. So many different projects that our community members don't know are available. But then the biggest thing is education and helping our community members go and understand the process. US systems that they might not understand or they might need a little bit more guidance because the ultimate goal is for our community members to feel empowered and that they have a space with a Hispanic Liaison that they can feel at home, but then they also could feel heard and that we're advocating for them and regardless of the field, so we don't limit ourselves to just one field.
DV: What an amazing resource for the community to have.
HB: Yes, and we work, that's with the community, and then also we work, like I said, with other non-profits, government agencies, businesses as well, so they can also--. How do I say? We give them guidance and suggestions, recommendations as to, hey, this is how you can better serve our community, or you need to consider this other perspective to try to break down barriers, miscommunication, misinformation. A lot of misconceptions of, oh, that's a cultural thing, actually, it's not. For example, oh, it's a cultural thing that Hispanics live all together in one house. And I'm like, actually, no. There's so many other factors that's out of a necessity that they are having to be together. And breaking down those kinds of examples. Or why is it that the child is interpreting? No, we don't. And because--. We faced that with my mother. I can't talk to you. You're a little kid. And there might not have been interpretation services available for my mom. Or even now, within systems that, let's say, she's going to a medical appointment or she's going to get some services, the interpreter might be there, and the provider is there or whoever is providing the service but it's the interpreter looking at my mom and the provider not once do they look at my mom at any point. And I was like, okay, so--.
DV: Are they here for me?
HB: Yeah, and not only that but then my mom starts, for example, like she starts talking to an interpreter and the interpreter was like, oh, I don't know. I don't know. Or actually, ask the provider. And then they're just kind of like, mm, no sé si le pregunto.
DV: There’s tension.
HB: Yeah, and sometimes, even at those points of contact, systems are improving. Not saying anything, but there's certain points in the process that need to be addressed and need to be improved. And so, we bring in those recommendations with agencies and say, hey, this can work better. Ultimately with a goal of positively impacting our community and that they feel empowered and comfortable at the point of service. Many times, I get agency leaders that say, well it's not that we're not trying, I'm like, no sweetie, it's not about that. It's also the impression that somebody gets when they're interacting with either staff or leadership. You may feel the same way if you go somewhere else and people are disconnected with you when you're getting a service. Thankfully you are able to speak the language and you can say, hey, what's up with that? You know, hey, what's going on with this? But many of times it's not even the language barriers. It's a lot about the relationships, the trust that's within providers. I always talk about the example of my mother and my children. Although they're in a dual language program, they understand Spanish and they're trying their best to speak Spanish, but there are times that they, each of them are speaking their own language, but they still understand each other because they've got that connection, they have that relationship. And my mom knows my child's intention, my child knows my mom's intention as to what we're trying to get to. And it's all about the relationship, versus it's, oh, here you go, and that's it.
DV: Can you pick out certain things in your background that you think helped to prepare you, that were part of your journey and led you to this pathway to leadership that you are in now? You mentioned for instance, translating for your mother and that is still something you do today in this role, you translate for other people, navigate systems, things like that.
HB: One of the biggest things--. And I constantly have to remind myself, because if you look at other places they think, oh, leadership is with the degree, or if you have something behind your name, or you--. I would say the non-conventional ways that leadership is portrayed. But leadership, from what I have seen, is you are getting yourself down and dirty with your community. You're there on the ground. And what you're doing is you're eventually translating to people that don't know what's going on and letting them know this is what’s happening, and this is what needs to go next. And this is what needs to go next. And sometimes I mention within people, if I, when I say deputy director, in my head I was like, maybe that's just for other people to understand where I am. But eventually, I'm just another person in the community. I'm just another--. I'm just like you and I. Which is funny, because my mom would always tell me, eres una directora. You've got to look like one. You got to act like one. I'm like, wait, what? What do you mean, ma? And she's like, no, you got to look like a directora. Almost like if I have to be in a suit and in a tie or I don't know, heels or like a businessperson that we would see at FBLA, you know, the Future Business Leaders of America. That's the image that they portray. A leader is this and you know, and you know that they’re here.
DV: They look the part traditionally.
HB: Yes. And that their presence can be felt every time they're in the room and like they're the highlight of everything and I'm like, I don't like that. And I do remember, I'm like, okay, I'm learning, that's what I need to be. And it's funny because sometimes people come around like, okay, who's the one in charge? [Laughter]. And I'm like, actually, that's me. But it's understanding that it's a role, a responsibility. It's not about the title, it just says that the title means you have more responsibilities. The responsibilities for the people that you're with, that you're working with, that you're trying to make an impact, to change. That's where I would have truly embraced it. Coming back within leadership, like I said. After, when was it, 2013, 2015, it's been the non-conventional leaders. I would always have some classmates say, within that group that graduated, there was one classmate that said, you're smart, but you don't--. Ah, what was it? He's like, you're a nerd, but you don't act like a nerd. He meant in the most positive way, he's like, you're so smart, but you don't act like a traditional person. And he was just like, I don't get it. I just don't get it. But like I said, just coming back, obviously it took several years for me to embrace that. That it's not what is portrayed out there. It's about, como dicen, okay you face the challenges, okay there's moments of, dang, like did I do it right? Am I doing this right? Dang, you question yourself like, maybe someone better could be here or, man, it's stressing me out with working with these people because, you know, I consider that I don't come at an aggressive stance when I'm working with new people, but then there's some people that are just, wow. You question yourself like, why are you here, respectfully? Like you're in this role that you have a big responsibility on making an impact on people and you close yourselves to it. And we were joking around with a colleague and my husband, actually yesterday. You know what, I realized I've got a list of people that don't like me. And he's like yeah, I realized that too. And he's like but I guess we just need to know that we're not going to be liked by everybody and that's okay. And it's about picking ourselves back up and realize okay, what haven't I figured out yet? Or what is it that I need to know more? Because obviously we're humans. And self-doubt comes and you know, hesitancy comes. But it's like, okay, these are legitimate questions, regardless of whether people look at you or talk down on you. I mentioned when they--. Just your presence around them, they make you feel like why is this idiot here? Because you see that, and growing up I would always, you know, everybody's working together, and it's been a learning curve. Learning curve that some people just don't want to work with you and it's okay. And it's okay and you know, you got to step back and look at the big picture of what you're trying to do.
DV: You face the challenge.
HB: Yeah and just like with everything there's a huge learning curve, and it's about having patience with yourself and it's harder than just, how would I say it, it's hard but at the same time it's important, it's valuable. Because you go through that moment and then you're looking at all the different points and then--. I always call it the dots are connecting in my brain. And understanding, okay this is different routes I need to take, these are different responses I need to do to whatever these challenges or opportunities are, and then you keep on going. And then you can do whatever you got to do. Si vas a limpiar, limpia. If you got to go and do something else, self-care, you do it, and then you get back up. You get back up and keep on trying. It's about not giving up in that part. I would say if there's, whoever's listening, if you are in that role, it's a matter of showing grace and kindness to other people because we're all just really trying, trying to make a difference, trying to make a change. Not only for ourselves, I always--. Obviously now I'm a mother, and I always think about the change for my children, the generations to come, my neighbors, my community. It's so cliche, I love it. How they say, I cannot change the world, but I can change my world. And my world is my family, my friends, my community.
DV: Well, speaking of your community, you were in all of these clubs in high school, then you were working in housing, then you became Deputy Director here at El Vínculo, the Hispanic Liaison. But more recently you were also Chair of ICAC, the Immigrant Community Advisory Council in Siler City. How did that come about?
HB: So, with ICAC, the Hispanic liaison had been involved with the Building Integrated Communities project with UNC in collaboration with Town of Siler City. That was around 2017 when it started. Out of that, there was an action plan, essentially telling the town of Siler City, here are some recommendations of how you can integrate immigrant communities into Siler City. Within the action plan, there's some Siler City action items, and then there's some other outside agencies that are involved in it, so it's just like a collective work. So, obviously the pandemic hit and there was a couple of pauses for one or two years and then in 2021, last year, Building Integrated Communities and El Vínculo Hispano approached the town of Siler City with a resolution to build an advisory board or committee to the town of Siler City to help guide them through this action plan, to give them recommendations with the ultimate goal of really pushing the action items among other responsibilities. So, when they made out the call for members of that committee, I submitted my letter of interest. To be part of this committee, you have to be an immigrant yourself, a child of an immigrant, a grandchild of an immigrant, having a close connection to Siler City. Either you live, or you work there or have a very specific interest with Siler City. That was pretty much the biggest responsibility, the biggest requirements really, and of course submitting the letter of interest for it. And so, I applied, and I became part of the inaugural group. There were seven of us and within our first meeting, that's where the group elected me to be their board chair. And so, within this first year, it's been a lot about learning. Learning about our role and truly understanding it on what does it mean to be in an advisory capacity? What are the regulations? But then also understanding and asking, well, why are those regulations in place? And so that we can fulfill our role to the best of our abilities. Within that group, there are wonderful professionals. There's an immigration attorney, there is a local law office manager. There is someone that is in marketing, someone that's a business owner veteran, someone that's in the school system. So, these are all professionals within our community involved in this group with different expertise and different insights to share a portion of our immigrant perspective in our community. And that's where we are today. Like I said, I'm chair over that advisory committee.
DV: Great. In your pathway to these leadership positions, do you have any challenges that you can pick out that you would want to share? Or maybe other lessons that you've learned along the way that you would want to share?
HB: Okay, well definitely there's going to be a lot of barriers that may come into play. It could be anywhere between access to education or maybe, especially if you never had that role model, which is very hard, or a mentor. But don't be afraid and ask. That was one of the things that they would always say: es que la Hannia habla mucho, she talks so much. And she will go and talk to anybody and it's not that I'm--. I might not seem like it, but I'm actually pretty shy. [Laughter]. I still like, okay, let me ask this, I need to understand this, because um so you'll find barriers either because you might not have the tools but that doesn't mean that you can't have the tools. Or you might know the resources yet. And so you'll find that. And what does that mean? That means approach people in leadership. And ask those questions. And keep on asking them until you understand. If they get annoyed, let them get annoyed. But no, you're going to keep on asking the questions, because it's important that you understand it because ultimately what's gonna happen is you will also be the advocate for the next person that comes in and share that, pass that information along, that knowledge along. And just like with anything, there's always that learning curve with anything new that you start. They say anything new with a business, anything new in education. I think that a pattern, a trend, that I've seen within the first three years of you doing anything, it's a lot about learning. Have grace with yourself while you're learning. If you can push through that, year one is a lot about, okay, here I am, I'm on the ground, and you're running. [Laughter]. Year two is your evaluation year. Okay, what happened year one? Because year one, you're going in there, you're going passionately. And year two, you're evaluating what's the processes? How did it work? How did it flow? What were the barriers that you found? What were some of the trends that you noticed? What were some of the activities that you saw for yourself, with your community, while you were doing whatever work that you were doing, and then just take a moment to step back and be like, okay, now what's going to be my response to it? What can I do next? And some of those you might not have an answer to, and that's totally fine. And then you keep on. Right now, and I can say that because we're going on to year two with the Immigrant Advisory Committee, going onto year two with our Lee County office, year two with my little one. He's that child that we fooled ourselves into thinking oh he's going be the same as the other two and we've got this and we're experienced parents and we're learning. But you keep on, you keep on and caring for yourself, you know yourself. Surround yourself with people that do care about you and people that will encourage you and people that will, maybe they might not have that answer for you, but that they're your safe space. You know to keep on keeping on.
DV: Speaking of keeping on, what do you envision for the roles that you're in right now in the future? Things you might want to accomplish, things you'd like to see your community have access to or accomplish. What do you see the future looking like, or what would you hope for the future?
HB: Well, within my role with the organization, still a lot of learning. Learning anything from A to Z. I love what I do. Growing up that was my goal. I always envisioned myself wanting to lead an organization, lead an organization, manage an organization that had the social aspect, and I am in this role. And I never thought that I would be, especially in the dark three years of my life. I was like, I am never going to accomplish that. Keep on learning that, being the best that I can for this role in this organization that I am in. With the community, giving the very best of my abilities to my community. I also see my community rising and being empowered by all the work that we do, being inspired, inspiring each other, and showcasing all the beautiful things that we have, especially in our culture and anything to do with the food, definitely, the music, the arts, the professionals that we have, the brilliant minds that might not be in traditional roles but darn, they are good at what they do. Highlighting that but then also collaborating with other communities. There is so much beauty, even when people might not think it. My son does not think it, my twelve-year-old. He is like, man this small town in boring, but there are so many beautiful members in our community. Being together, working together. There’s always going to be the hustle but there is also going to be life and enjoying. Unfortunately, vulnerable communities, communities of color--. In what we say, okay Hannia we have got to be realistic, and yeah, we are being realistic because there are different barriers that one would say would prevent our community to live that. That is when we say, okay we are going to strive for life and joy and everything that we deserve, but we are also going to hustle and raise our voices and say this is not correct. We are going to be working together collectively to make change, to make movement, make noise regardless of whoever gets frustrated, and sometimes we have to move quietly and that is totally fine. Seeing that grow in our community, and then for myself at the end of it all, I think I told you but, quiero un ranchito, I want a little casita. [Laughter]. Just like out in the country, with at most two acres, pues tan poco quiero exagerar. I just want a place that is not too big. Just enough for myself and for at least two other guests when they need to go there. My kids swear up and down that as soon as they get old, they are going to get their own places. I want that for them, but I know, especially because I would see it growing up my mother was an unofficial matriarch of our family in Siler City so our aunts and uncles would go there, pay their respects. Then they would leave and go do their things. More of like, hey big sister I am here I love you. Alright you are good? Yeah, and then you are done. Just a place that our family can go. I envision a patio that has enough gathering spaces for everybody to be out there, having their own hamaca, having a place for the kids to go and play. I want to see all the young and the old together. I want the younger ones to hear the stories of the old folks because they have some crazy stories let me tell you. [Laughter]. Learning from their experience and just a space. A space where they can be family. I will give a hand into gardening maybe. Not really, maybe just the basic plant because I don’t want to kill the plants. I’ve thought about a couple animalitos de granja, and a lot of plants, I like plants. You will just find me there.
DV: Okay, Hannia. Hannia, thank you very much for sharing your story with me.
HB: Thank you, Daniel.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Transcriber: Sofia Godoy and Daniel Velásquez
Interview Date: 2022 November 18
Date of Transcription: 2023 July 17 / Revisions: 2023 October 9
Dublin Core
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Title
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R-1007 -- Benítez, Hannia.
Description
An account of the resource
Born in Guatemala but raised in Siler City, North Carolina, Hannia Benítez currently serves her local communities as Deputy Director at El Vínculo Hispano/The Hispanic Liaison’s office in Lee County and as Chair of Siler City’s Immigrant Community Advisory Committee (ICAC). Hannia shares her foundational experiences, including the need to be her family’s interpreter during her childhood and her engagement in several clubs throughout High School. A few years later, the advent of the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program helped her during a difficult time in her personal life by opening opportunities for employment and education. While working in the housing sector, Hannia joined the Board of Directors of El Vínculo Hispano, eventually serving as board chair and later transitioning to staff as deputy director of El Vínculo’s first satellite office in Lee County. Lastly, she shares her experience during her first year serving in ICAC, which she explains has been a time for asking questions and learning the workings of local government in order to position their efforts in the coming years. Throughout, Hannia shares advice for future leaders by describing her sense of responsibility for the people and communities that she serves while showing grace and kindness in the face of adversity.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2022-11-18
Publisher
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29337">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
Language
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R1007_Audio.mp3
Format
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R1007_Audio.mp3
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/ba8764e0170c4077f14369d697d09c05.mp3
1f83ae206e258ed2e0daea494b245d6e
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/dc5bd5d317f674ca4bcd5a6f5fb55c32.pdf
480c7f4118d2cd93900d746f003921af
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0990
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
2018-06-19
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Bridwell, Robert.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
City planners
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1949
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Male
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Albequerque -- New Mexico
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Sanford -- Lee County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
NA
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Graham, Alexandra.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
This interview was conducted by interviewer Alexandra Graham with interviewee Deacon Robert (Bob) Bridwell. The main focus of the interview is Deacon Bridwell’s responsibilities at St. Stephen Catholic Church. Much of his work in the church surrounds immigration services. He tells us about the services St. Stephen’s provides as well as what projects he personally works on. He shares about his long career of city planning and activism and talks about how demographic changes in Lee County (the county where he resides) have reshaped the needs of community members and therefore what services he works with. He talks about the biggest challenges facing immigrant families (majority Hispanic/Latino) in rural North Carolina and how his church is working to provide solutions and resources for those problems. He also discusses his involvement in the Building Integrated Communities initiative, a collaboration with the City of Sanford, Lee County, and the Latino Migration Project at UNC Chapel Hill. The interview, which took place in Deacon Bridwell’s office at St. Stephen Catholic Church, lasted about 37 minutes. Outside of his office, construction was going on to build a new addition to the church. There were construction noises throughout the interview, but it does not interfere with the ability to hear what was said.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Robert Bridwell, 19 June 2018, R-0990, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/28600
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Integration and segregation; Community and social services and programs; Religion; Dreamers and DACA; Receiving Communities
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Alexandra Graham: I almost forgot to ask you. Do you have any Hispanic members of staff at the church?
Robert Bridwell: Yes, absolutely. Especially with a parish this size. It has a large Hispanic population. We have a Hispanic minister. [inaudible]. A full-time staff member. We have two other deacons besides myself who are Hispanic deacons. The church administrative assistant and interpreter and girl we rely on completely is Hispanic. We, there’s a lot—she gives us a lot of assistance in interpreting. And just a lot of our groups are very involved in working with Hispanic programs. Our youth minister who’s not Hispanic, I mean, most of her population that she works with are Hispanic children. And our faith formation director here, the majority of the children that she works with are Hispanic. So, you know, we have a full-service Hispanic program that’s going on here. Probably could expand it like most churches could. But we spend a lot of time and a lot of effort trying to serve their needs.
AG: Thanks again, Deacon.
RB: Sure thing. Today, to a large extent, we’re ones that were characterized by very substantial rural population with a few good, decent size cities. Not a lot. And then that’s transitioned obviously traumatically over the years where, you know, we have a very large and dynamic metropolitan areas. But those rural areas are still pretty much rural. Especially when I lived in eastern North Carolina where the Hispanic population, the Latino population, were pretty much restricted to farmworkers, migrant workers that were coming up from Mexico. And that’s what I experienced until I came to Sanford, when I came here from Rocky Mount. Both from a Catholic standpoint and also as a public servant. Most of the experiences I had with the Hispanic population were migrant workers who were working on large farms in Nash County and Edgecombe County. When I came here, they were just starting to have that first wave of Hispanics that were coming here to work in nonagricultural industries. They were coming to work for the poultry houses that had been recruiting them heavily throughout Mexico. And for Tyson foods here in Sanford who’s responsible for making taco shells. And some of the other industries like Cody got Cosmex manufacturers that were also stating to recruit them. When I first came to Sanford in Lee County, still was not really aware that much of the Hispanic population. My first inclination was at church. We were in our previous location then, and the Hispanic wave of population coming into the area integrating, migrating into the community had just started. All of a sudden it seemed like overnight the church was packed in the Spanish mass. And they only had one back then. And they had to add a second one. And then more families seemed to appear. So, I started to think and notice from my standpoint of being the community’s planner, when we started looking at the demographics. So, it was 2002, so the census data was just starting to come in. In nineteen--in the last census--the 1990 census, the Hispanic population was probably less than two percent of the total population. By the time of the 2000 census, that had jumped up dramatically to the extent that probably over eighteen percent of the county population was Hispanic and a little higher percentage of the city population--. About 20 percent. About 1 out of 5. And we were starting to see that at the church. That’s when we said at church that we needed to do something to accommodate the population and we started looking at plans for a larger parish community here. The same thing was happening at work. The city and the county were starting to recognize that they had this huge influx of population but until we started analyzing the data we didn’t even realize what that meant. [Coughs]. So, we were starting to get phone calls from the school system asking for data because their school-age population was literally exploding. And that occurred very, very dramatically during the first decade of the new century until 2010 where we saw all these people really filling up everywhere we went. To the school system, to where we were seeing in housing, the demand for services. This church where we had to literally invent a Hispanic program here because all of a sudden, we had more Hispanics in the church than we had Anglos. And Anglo being a real roughly defined term. So, we had to kind of reinvent everything here going forward to try to address a population that largely did not speak English and had very specific needs as to what they were demanding. So that was a pretty unusual thing to work with and I had never really had that kind of experience. But I had a very sincere interest having grown up in the South during the year of, from going to segregation and the integration of schools, and working on various issues when I was a student trying to understand that. And seeing the same kind of issues starting to crop up with this whole new population coming in. I was having, as a professional, and as a Christian, trying to make adjustments. How do I approach this? How do I look at this population? Gosh, I wasn’t really sure what to do or how to respond appropriately.
AG: Thank you. So, you have a really long career as the director of planning. How have you been involved in planning for demographic changes such as this throughout your career?
RB: Well again, early in my career it was trying to make sure we were trying to address the various demographic segments in our communities. You know, a lot of time as city planners we do that from an age and income standpoint. And then, obviously during an era that I grew up in, an area of desegregation, we were also trying to make sure that the government was responsive of all of its citizens’ populations. And, including those of race. That is always a real challenge when you start to intersperse a political philosophies and orientations of governing and all the various aspects that create the dynamics of any community. But from a planning standpoint, our job, my job was the make sure that all the services and that people need for their daily lives, you know, whether it be water and sewer, or adequate schools or recreation facilities, that all these populations were adequately served and to make sure that we understood the dynamics that were going on with the various demographics of the community. Black white, young, old, rich poor. You know, whatever it needs to serve that community. When the Hispanic population started to come in, we started looking at another dynamic of people who need extra services because they were literally being integrated into a community as immigrants pretty much like what my grandparents went through and what my mother went through. Which they were integrated into this country from Ireland. So, trying to understand those dynamics and specific services was really, really important. Added to that, the growth of the Hispanic population in this community and many communities was just huge and expansive through almost two decades. Then, all of a sudden, the recession hit and it all kind of went [noise] stopped. I don't know that we saw a real reverse of Hispanics. We didn't see a lot of Hispanics moving away from this community after the recession hit in 2008, but we've seen, certainly saw April slowdown. One of the things that, that kept striking me is, is the dynamics that hits any immigrant population is that they're not static. They don't stay the same. And especially with the Hispanic population because we had all this massive amount of people who came into this community. Largely with, with little skills. Very little English, limited education, limited understanding of how a community like this operates and how they could get their needs fulfilled. All that was started at that point and then started the transition because they started having children. And it doesn't take long for children, little children to become big children and big children become adults. So literally today we're going through that transition of, of folks that are coming in as immigrants. Many of them are undocumented to having children. A lot of the DACA kids that we, that we worked with through the years to them also becoming American kids. But being born here such to the point, a couple of, about three months ago, I did a sermon here one Sunday speaking to the Anglo community. And I asked them to raise their hands, how many were from Lee County. And of course, from a community like this and a Catholic community, just a sprinkling of hands were raised at that mass. And I told them that if I were to go to the Spanish mass and asked the same question, probably half of the people in there would have raised their hands if they were born and raised in Lee County. So, the significant dynamics of the Hispanic--. Of the immigrant population becoming Americanized, Anglicized, was becoming pretty evident. To this day that you can go to the English mass in, there are large number of Hispanic families that now go to the English mass rather than a Spanish mass. Kind of rambled on that but--.
AG: No, that’s very interesting information. So--.
AG: When did you become a deacon of St. Stephens and how long have you been a part of this community? And could you tell us a little bit of what your role is at the church?
RB: About ten years ago, for a variety of reasons, I decided to go back to my original calling because I had thought I was going to be a priest. And the opportunity to become an ordained Catholic Deacon became available. And I waited for the first class that I could apply. A deacon in the Catholic church is so goes through similar training that that of a Catholic priest would go through except for not--. Or we stop at a point that that precedes becoming a priest. We were ordained as deacons and all priests ordained as deacons before they're priests. So, I entered into the formation for the diaconate program in 2009 and was in formation for five years as a deacon. And during that period of time, I think that's when I became more intensely interested in serving the Hispanic population here because one of my assignments was to serve at the Hispanic masses. So that's when I started doing that. I also became very involved with the priesthood we were assigned shortly thereafter, who came in here not only to serve the religious and spiritual needs of the parish, but also had been trained in assisting in their immigration needs as well. The pastor here is a certified immigration specialist. So, I started working with him during my training as a deacon, also being trained to assist people in their in their immigration needs as well. So, in 2014, I had two things happen in my life. One is I retired from public service after 45 years. And the second thing is I was ordained a Catholic deacon all along with 14 other men. And that's when I started my clerical career here. So, serving this parish as a deacon and also helping and assisting with the immigration services ward here in this parish.
AG: So, what are some of the challenges that you’ve encountered in this role?
RB: My number one challenge was language. I am not skilled in language at all, so that is always has been and continues to be a struggle. But probably one of the more difficult things is to try to work in situations that are intimidating. And I don't mean intimidating physically. I mean because I don't, I'm not sure that I always have the skills necessary to help. One of those is in the area of immigration work where I work with families that are applying for U-visas. And as you'll probably ask me later on, that involves people that have been the subject or the targets of crime. And some of the stories in some of the work in dealing with that has been hard on me. I'm dealing with the tragedies [inaudible] on some of these families. So that's probably been one of the bigger challenges. That and the language and, sometimes feeling inadequate to serve the multiple needs of a lot of these families that have lots of things that they need help on. Not just one, but my ultimate need is to serve their spiritual needs. So, I try to keep going back to that and then just trying to reach out and using some of the skills that I may have from other parts of my life.
AG: How many Spanish speaking parishes are there?
RB: There is a bunch. This is a community of roughly 6,500. Over 4,000 of that population are Hispanic. So, we're probably two thirds Hispanic at this parish. Yeah. And I'm not alone in that. We have two priests here. The Pastor does speak Spanish, as I mentioned. And we have two Hispanic deacons as well. And we also have another deacon that works within the Anglo community. But you're going to ask some more questions on that later on that, aren't you? And I’ll just delay that. Give you an answer to that.
AG: Could you tell us a little bit more about how St. Stephens has been supportive to immigrants in Lee County? So, this could be, what kinds of services does the church offer to immigrants? Maybe legal resources? You could tell us a little bit more about the U-Visa program or DACA workshops.
RB: Well, we've been really, really involved in that. Like I said, with the priest that came here, came here up here from down in your neck of the woods from Shalom. When he was down here with St. Brandon's, [inaudible] was certified as an immigration specialist before he came up here. So, when they came to this community, then there's two priests that came here from the order that they represent. They had some special skillsets that this community really, really needed. As I said, the depth of the Hispanic population in this area was very, very significant, not only in the parish, but throughout the region. The priest Father Robert Ippolito was also engaged with Catholic charities. So. we're serving more on a regional basis and not just the parish community. So, we've done a number of things. One of the first massive things that was done was the original DACA applications. This parish held multiple workshops trying to assist the, those young people in that process and probably has close to 1200 that we worked with, the not just in his parish but throughout the region. And they’ll come as far away as southeastern North Carolina, and as far as Charlotte. So, we're certainly a larger--. But most of them are concentrated here within this multi county area. So, we've done an extensive amount of work on, on DACA. Which until the, the president’s order, was a very significant part of the work that I've been doing. Then we've also been doing a lot of U-Visa work and I think we have a real expertise here and we get people from all over the diocese come to this location. And we also, the pastor has another office in Raleigh, so we end up servicing a lot of them. And my role in that is I--. My primary role in that is helping with the paperwork that goes along with the U-Visa applications and writing the transmittal letter. And the transmittal letter is a very formal document that shows how the application has met all the requirements of the U-Visa program, especially including the local law enforcement involvement. But I also have to write the stories. The stories of what the victims had been through. And again, that's probably the most difficult thing that I've had to deal with is writing notes. But we also do all full range of immigration services, including change of status, alien registration, the citizenship classes. We hold citizenship classes here and work with the applications. We do a variety of things. Most of that is done by Father Ippolito who is the certified representative. But we also have tried very hard to respond to some of the special crisis's that the Latino population has gone through. One of those for instances, we've held workshops on power of attorneys. We've held workshops on, well, you know, what do you do if large numbers of parents are removed from their children, much like we're experiencing right at this moment. And trying to help them with the legal aspects of that and the support aspects of that of trying to work through those very difficult situations and sometimes just responding to rumors. I know that the father was gone while one week and I was doing some work in Raleigh and I got a phone call from one of our parishioners that ICE was doing raids at Walmart. So, I drop whatever I was doing and raced all the way back to the parish to find out what was going on. In the meantime, calling my friends at local law enforcement here who have always been very helpful by the way. And in discovering that was just a rumor was something put out on, on one of the Hispanic radio stations. And it ended up being false alarm, but we were trying to respond because it was so significantly not only affect this parish, but all the Hispanic community that we feel responsible for because at the end of the day as Catholics, social justice is one of our principles that we stay very focused on.
AG: Thank you. So, what are, apart from some of the things that you've already mentioned, some of the biggest challenges that persists for local immigrants and their families?
RB: Well, we worked quite extensively with UNC on a process called the Latino Migration Project. That was a three-year study. That study resulted from my discovering what they were doing and making an application. And we had that study done here. We learned many, many things. I learned many things. I believe city government, county government, learned many things on the needs of the Hispanic population. The needs shouldn't be surprising to most people because the Hispanic population, the families want what any family wants. They want safety and security. They want the dignity of having a job, of having a job that they can afford to raise their families with. So, you know, we need to stay focused on that regardless of what happens on the national scene. We feel like we have an obligation to those families, to those people trying to achieve what any American citizen would want. And increasingly that's who these people are and that's to find a life for themselves and satisfy the needs of themselves and their family. So that's what I try to keep my attention focused on is how do we do that? Not in a static way, but in a change way? How do we provide for their needs as they make those transitions? Many of the Hispanic population, you know, came here to work and have jobs now are getting elderly and I don't think anybody's doing an adequate job of trying to address their needs, especially if they're undocumented because they have no way of having those needs addressed. There's no social security. There's no Medicaid for them. But there's going to be this massive population that are just going to continue to fall through the cracks. But then there are the families and the young children and how do we meet their needs? The DACA kids. Many of whom are very successful in high school are being accepted to colleges and having--. Are being forced to pay these massive tuitions that they can’t afford and trying to make a life for themselves and wanting to become Americans. And right now, everything's being closed off to them. So, so those are just some of the things that keep me up at night. I'm sure keeps them Father Ippolito up. And all the people here. We have a Hispanic--. Right next door is our Hispanic minister who that's what her job is. Is trying to serve those needs. So, you know, there is a pretty, pretty challenging things, especially in an environment we have today.
AG: Okay. Have you seen any large changes in the way that people are feeling about maybe security since the election or any instances of family separation?
RB: We fortunately have not had any real family separation here, likes it’s being experienced on the border. No, that's just not, has not been a massive problem. It's not that it isn't a problem because it's always potentially there. The biggest thing that’s going on right now is just the incredible anxiety and uncertainty of people just don't know what's going to happen. And there is nothing that's happening right now and nothing that I see in the foreseeable future that seems to be heading towards any kind of resolution. I mean, I, it's really hard for people. It's hard for me when I, when I can't find a resolution or when I see conflict that I, I can't resolve it. And I am, you know, an older middle-class white guy with all the privileges that go with that. And how would you feel if, if every day of your life you didn't, you didn't even know if somebody was going to knock on your door and take you away. And your children are going to be left here. I mean that's hard to live with and it just is so disconcerting. One of the things that is happening in this community is that, and that I'm very proud of, is this is a community that has a lot of compassion and that people are concerned about that and they're trying to be supportive. They're trying to be supportive at the governmental level, at the civic level. Not just this church, but all the churches. They understand those issues and are trying to be whatever help they can be. But at the end of the day, if I don't know what's going to happen to me, if someone knocks on my door. That's a horrible way to live and it's just so sad and injustice.
AG: Moving topics a little bit. Could you tell us a little bit about the Building Integrated Communities project in Siler City and how you’ve been involved with that?
RB: I have not been directly involved in that project. Of course, I was very involved in the one here in Sanford and Lee County, but we're trying to serve as a resource for them in Siler City. It's not going to be as a larger community as this one was here, but they're going to have many of the same issues that are going on. Coincidentally, I also work with the St. Julia Catholic church in Siler City. And so, I'm having those conversations with that parish as well. And the former police chief and I are friends. So, we've had many conversations and there are some wonderful people in Siler city. Both in the Hispanic community and the Anglo community. I'm very involved with the boys and Girls Club for Sanford and Lee County and Chatham County, including Siler City, which has a very active boys and girls club. So, we're trying to also use those kinds of mechanisms to try to feed into whatever [inaudible] they have going forward. But I have a pretty good feeling about Siler City because they are a very open and receptive community. That's not always boasted upon or promoted too much outside of small communities like ours, but it's very important. And I think the compassion that any community has is very important.
AG: Could you tell me a bit about the Building Integrated Communities project in Sanford?
RB: It was a wonderful program. Again, before I retired and while I was in formation for the Deaconate program, I made the application for the project. At that time there was only a few communities who had been through it. Winston-Salem and Greenville stick out in my mind. I think there were a couple of others. But we were one of the very first ones. And when Jessica Lee White and Dr. Gill came to us and we talked about the program, we just use that as a jumping point to try to get into issues that we thought were extremely important. And we had some real successes. The research that took place that we were very much involved in. Having a very active geographic information system program here. We were very, very able to supply a lot of the information we need it for the research. To have those public meetings for the Hispanic population probably for the first time really had a chance to come and speak about their needs, especially to appointed and elected officials to, the police chief and the sheriff and social services, the schools. It was just really nice to see. Let them have that opportunity to speak about their needs. So that was a very interesting process and I think some folks were surprised. The first thing that surprised me was the number of Hispanics who were willing to come out and talk. Again, you know, a lot of them were under the fear of deportation or being recorded or having--. But they were coming out sometimes a little reluctantly, but they were coming out in this environment that we tried to keep a feeling of trust and confidence and speaking about their needs. So, we had, I think, a lot of success in that the formation of the Hispanic Council here which has been very active. It was very helpful. The mayor was extremely supportive. Coming to speak at these events who came and spoke at an event one day where there was, gosh, several hundred people inside our church to speak to them, saying that the community, the city, wanted to help support their needs and be responsive to them. The police department coming and saying we want to help you. We don't want to just, you know, catch you driving without a license. So, or the lawyers coming in and talking about, you know, how to do powers of attorney. So, we had a lot of success during that process, both within the formal structure of the Latino Migration Project, but also add on things. Just ways to support the needs that they might have. One of our churches across town, the United Methodist Church in Jonesboro, created a program called El Refugio, which they got a grant from Duke and they were trying to serve Hispanic needs. The community college was very specific in trying to serve a lot of needs. So, all those things that happened during that process. And were all very successful and I'm very proud of the success that we had. But we also had some failures. One of the needs that we kept hearing over and over and over again was because the undocumented population are denied the ability to get a driver's license. They couldn't do simple things like go to the bank and cash a check or, you know, go to the grocery store and show an id or anything that everybody else is pretty comfortable with. And we tried really, really hard to develop a local ID program here, which like they've done in other communities. So, they were very successful in doing it in Burlington. Asheboro, I believe was successful in doing it. We couldn't get the first base here. There was--. It was about this time that the legislature was passing, trying to pass a bill that the disallowed any kind of local IDs. We just had a lot of resistance and were never able to get that done. And I was disappointed that that couldn't happen and still think is something that we should do. But the other biggest disappointment. I'm going to say is a disappointment. The Latino population, they need to become more and more engaged. Quickly. Because they are so significant. And we're talking about people who are citizens now. A significant percentage of our population are Hispanic. They need to be running for public office. You know, being an Irish American, you know, I knew that's what they, my family, our folks did in places like Boston and Philadelphia and New York. And the Latino population here has got to do the same thing. They've got to become engaged in the civic activities and political activities in one of these communities so that they are adequately represented and can speak for themselves.
AG: Could you tell me a little bit more about the positive outcomes and maybe the lasting effects of that BIC program? Things that you still see today?
RB: I think the very seeds, the mustard seeds, to use a religious term, of that process of that small little seeds is that they will start taking that process of being integrated into these communities and letting it blossom to become again engaged. This is not something that's going to happen overnight, but because of this project, I think a leadership structure is now being established within the Hispanic community. I think that that the recognition of the entire community, the Anglo community, the community at large, are recognizing that the Hispanic population is not only here but important. I know that a number of elected officials realize how important that population is. Our business community understands that if that population wasn't here, this community would take a significant economic hit. So that feeling of mutual need and mutual support, I think starting with this product and has grown pretty significantly since, since the project started and continues to grow every day.
AG: Thank you. That's most of what I have prepared. But is there anything else that you'd like to add? Maybe about the church or the community or anything in your career that you've experienced?
RB: I have gotten a lot of satisfaction in not only working on this project but also working in this community, both as a public servant and also as a member of the clergy. It has added dimensions to my life, you know, I'm almost 70 years old that I didn't really expect to happen in my life. So, it's been a very satisfying, very gratifying. But it's also made me more aware of what has always attracted me to my own faith. And that's that Catholic social justice that probably got birthed to me in the very early part of my life when I looked around and saw so much injustice in a country that promises justice and equality. It gave me the opportunity to say I need to be a part of it. And here at the end of my career, later in my life, I'm having the ability to fulfill a lot of things that started out when, gosh, when I was a teenager. And it's been very important to me and very gratifying.
AG: Thank you very much.
RB: You’re welcome very much.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Urbanistas
Es: Género de entrevistado
Hombre
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Temas
Integración y segregación; Programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios; Religión; Movimiento de jóvenes 'Soñadores' y Acción Diferida; Comunidades receptoras
Es: Transcripción
Alexandra Graham: I almost forgot to ask you. Do you have any Hispanic members of staff at the church?
Robert Bridwell: Yes, absolutely. Especially with a parish this size. It has a large Hispanic population. We have a Hispanic minister. [inaudible]. A full-time staff member. We have two other deacons besides myself who are Hispanic deacons. The church administrative assistant and interpreter and girl we rely on completely is Hispanic. We, there’s a lot—she gives us a lot of assistance in interpreting. And just a lot of our groups are very involved in working with Hispanic programs. Our youth minister who’s not Hispanic, I mean, most of her population that she works with are Hispanic children. And our faith formation director here, the majority of the children that she works with are Hispanic. So, you know, we have a full-service Hispanic program that’s going on here. Probably could expand it like most churches could. But we spend a lot of time and a lot of effort trying to serve their needs.
AG: Thanks again, Deacon.
RB: Sure thing. Today, to a large extent, we’re ones that were characterized by very substantial rural population with a few good, decent size cities. Not a lot. And then that’s transitioned obviously traumatically over the years where, you know, we have a very large and dynamic metropolitan areas. But those rural areas are still pretty much rural. Especially when I lived in eastern North Carolina where the Hispanic population, the Latino population, were pretty much restricted to farmworkers, migrant workers that were coming up from Mexico. And that’s what I experienced until I came to Sanford, when I came here from Rocky Mount. Both from a Catholic standpoint and also as a public servant. Most of the experiences I had with the Hispanic population were migrant workers who were working on large farms in Nash County and Edgecombe County. When I came here, they were just starting to have that first wave of Hispanics that were coming here to work in nonagricultural industries. They were coming to work for the poultry houses that had been recruiting them heavily throughout Mexico. And for Tyson foods here in Sanford who’s responsible for making taco shells. And some of the other industries like Cody got Cosmex manufacturers that were also stating to recruit them. When I first came to Sanford in Lee County, still was not really aware that much of the Hispanic population. My first inclination was at church. We were in our previous location then, and the Hispanic wave of population coming into the area integrating, migrating into the community had just started. All of a sudden it seemed like overnight the church was packed in the Spanish mass. And they only had one back then. And they had to add a second one. And then more families seemed to appear. So, I started to think and notice from my standpoint of being the community’s planner, when we started looking at the demographics. So, it was 2002, so the census data was just starting to come in. In nineteen--in the last census--the 1990 census, the Hispanic population was probably less than two percent of the total population. By the time of the 2000 census, that had jumped up dramatically to the extent that probably over eighteen percent of the county population was Hispanic and a little higher percentage of the city population--. About 20 percent. About 1 out of 5. And we were starting to see that at the church. That’s when we said at church that we needed to do something to accommodate the population and we started looking at plans for a larger parish community here. The same thing was happening at work. The city and the county were starting to recognize that they had this huge influx of population but until we started analyzing the data we didn’t even realize what that meant. [Coughs]. So, we were starting to get phone calls from the school system asking for data because their school-age population was literally exploding. And that occurred very, very dramatically during the first decade of the new century until 2010 where we saw all these people really filling up everywhere we went. To the school system, to where we were seeing in housing, the demand for services. This church where we had to literally invent a Hispanic program here because all of a sudden, we had more Hispanics in the church than we had Anglos. And Anglo being a real roughly defined term. So, we had to kind of reinvent everything here going forward to try to address a population that largely did not speak English and had very specific needs as to what they were demanding. So that was a pretty unusual thing to work with and I had never really had that kind of experience. But I had a very sincere interest having grown up in the South during the year of, from going to segregation and the integration of schools, and working on various issues when I was a student trying to understand that. And seeing the same kind of issues starting to crop up with this whole new population coming in. I was having, as a professional, and as a Christian, trying to make adjustments. How do I approach this? How do I look at this population? Gosh, I wasn’t really sure what to do or how to respond appropriately.
AG: Thank you. So, you have a really long career as the director of planning. How have you been involved in planning for demographic changes such as this throughout your career?
RB: Well again, early in my career it was trying to make sure we were trying to address the various demographic segments in our communities. You know, a lot of time as city planners we do that from an age and income standpoint. And then, obviously during an era that I grew up in, an area of desegregation, we were also trying to make sure that the government was responsive of all of its citizens’ populations. And, including those of race. That is always a real challenge when you start to intersperse a political philosophies and orientations of governing and all the various aspects that create the dynamics of any community. But from a planning standpoint, our job, my job was the make sure that all the services and that people need for their daily lives, you know, whether it be water and sewer, or adequate schools or recreation facilities, that all these populations were adequately served and to make sure that we understood the dynamics that were going on with the various demographics of the community. Black white, young, old, rich poor. You know, whatever it needs to serve that community. When the Hispanic population started to come in, we started looking at another dynamic of people who need extra services because they were literally being integrated into a community as immigrants pretty much like what my grandparents went through and what my mother went through. Which they were integrated into this country from Ireland. So, trying to understand those dynamics and specific services was really, really important. Added to that, the growth of the Hispanic population in this community and many communities was just huge and expansive through almost two decades. Then, all of a sudden, the recession hit and it all kind of went [noise] stopped. I don't know that we saw a real reverse of Hispanics. We didn't see a lot of Hispanics moving away from this community after the recession hit in 2008, but we've seen, certainly saw April slowdown. One of the things that, that kept striking me is, is the dynamics that hits any immigrant population is that they're not static. They don't stay the same. And especially with the Hispanic population because we had all this massive amount of people who came into this community. Largely with, with little skills. Very little English, limited education, limited understanding of how a community like this operates and how they could get their needs fulfilled. All that was started at that point and then started the transition because they started having children. And it doesn't take long for children, little children to become big children and big children become adults. So literally today we're going through that transition of, of folks that are coming in as immigrants. Many of them are undocumented to having children. A lot of the DACA kids that we, that we worked with through the years to them also becoming American kids. But being born here such to the point, a couple of, about three months ago, I did a sermon here one Sunday speaking to the Anglo community. And I asked them to raise their hands, how many were from Lee County. And of course, from a community like this and a Catholic community, just a sprinkling of hands were raised at that mass. And I told them that if I were to go to the Spanish mass and asked the same question, probably half of the people in there would have raised their hands if they were born and raised in Lee County. So, the significant dynamics of the Hispanic--. Of the immigrant population becoming Americanized, Anglicized, was becoming pretty evident. To this day that you can go to the English mass in, there are large number of Hispanic families that now go to the English mass rather than a Spanish mass. Kind of rambled on that but--.
AG: No, that’s very interesting information. So--.
AG: When did you become a deacon of St. Stephens and how long have you been a part of this community? And could you tell us a little bit of what your role is at the church?
RB: About ten years ago, for a variety of reasons, I decided to go back to my original calling because I had thought I was going to be a priest. And the opportunity to become an ordained Catholic Deacon became available. And I waited for the first class that I could apply. A deacon in the Catholic church is so goes through similar training that that of a Catholic priest would go through except for not--. Or we stop at a point that that precedes becoming a priest. We were ordained as deacons and all priests ordained as deacons before they're priests. So, I entered into the formation for the diaconate program in 2009 and was in formation for five years as a deacon. And during that period of time, I think that's when I became more intensely interested in serving the Hispanic population here because one of my assignments was to serve at the Hispanic masses. So that's when I started doing that. I also became very involved with the priesthood we were assigned shortly thereafter, who came in here not only to serve the religious and spiritual needs of the parish, but also had been trained in assisting in their immigration needs as well. The pastor here is a certified immigration specialist. So, I started working with him during my training as a deacon, also being trained to assist people in their in their immigration needs as well. So, in 2014, I had two things happen in my life. One is I retired from public service after 45 years. And the second thing is I was ordained a Catholic deacon all along with 14 other men. And that's when I started my clerical career here. So, serving this parish as a deacon and also helping and assisting with the immigration services ward here in this parish.
AG: So, what are some of the challenges that you’ve encountered in this role?
RB: My number one challenge was language. I am not skilled in language at all, so that is always has been and continues to be a struggle. But probably one of the more difficult things is to try to work in situations that are intimidating. And I don't mean intimidating physically. I mean because I don't, I'm not sure that I always have the skills necessary to help. One of those is in the area of immigration work where I work with families that are applying for U-visas. And as you'll probably ask me later on, that involves people that have been the subject or the targets of crime. And some of the stories in some of the work in dealing with that has been hard on me. I'm dealing with the tragedies [inaudible] on some of these families. So that's probably been one of the bigger challenges. That and the language and, sometimes feeling inadequate to serve the multiple needs of a lot of these families that have lots of things that they need help on. Not just one, but my ultimate need is to serve their spiritual needs. So, I try to keep going back to that and then just trying to reach out and using some of the skills that I may have from other parts of my life.
AG: How many Spanish speaking parishes are there?
RB: There is a bunch. This is a community of roughly 6,500. Over 4,000 of that population are Hispanic. So, we're probably two thirds Hispanic at this parish. Yeah. And I'm not alone in that. We have two priests here. The Pastor does speak Spanish, as I mentioned. And we have two Hispanic deacons as well. And we also have another deacon that works within the Anglo community. But you're going to ask some more questions on that later on that, aren't you? And I’ll just delay that. Give you an answer to that.
AG: Could you tell us a little bit more about how St. Stephens has been supportive to immigrants in Lee County? So, this could be, what kinds of services does the church offer to immigrants? Maybe legal resources? You could tell us a little bit more about the U-Visa program or DACA workshops.
RB: Well, we've been really, really involved in that. Like I said, with the priest that came here, came here up here from down in your neck of the woods from Shalom. When he was down here with St. Brandon's, [inaudible] was certified as an immigration specialist before he came up here. So, when they came to this community, then there's two priests that came here from the order that they represent. They had some special skillsets that this community really, really needed. As I said, the depth of the Hispanic population in this area was very, very significant, not only in the parish, but throughout the region. The priest Father Robert Ippolito was also engaged with Catholic charities. So. we're serving more on a regional basis and not just the parish community. So, we've done a number of things. One of the first massive things that was done was the original DACA applications. This parish held multiple workshops trying to assist the, those young people in that process and probably has close to 1200 that we worked with, the not just in his parish but throughout the region. And they’ll come as far away as southeastern North Carolina, and as far as Charlotte. So, we're certainly a larger--. But most of them are concentrated here within this multi county area. So, we've done an extensive amount of work on, on DACA. Which until the, the president’s order, was a very significant part of the work that I've been doing. Then we've also been doing a lot of U-Visa work and I think we have a real expertise here and we get people from all over the diocese come to this location. And we also, the pastor has another office in Raleigh, so we end up servicing a lot of them. And my role in that is I--. My primary role in that is helping with the paperwork that goes along with the U-Visa applications and writing the transmittal letter. And the transmittal letter is a very formal document that shows how the application has met all the requirements of the U-Visa program, especially including the local law enforcement involvement. But I also have to write the stories. The stories of what the victims had been through. And again, that's probably the most difficult thing that I've had to deal with is writing notes. But we also do all full range of immigration services, including change of status, alien registration, the citizenship classes. We hold citizenship classes here and work with the applications. We do a variety of things. Most of that is done by Father Ippolito who is the certified representative. But we also have tried very hard to respond to some of the special crisis's that the Latino population has gone through. One of those for instances, we've held workshops on power of attorneys. We've held workshops on, well, you know, what do you do if large numbers of parents are removed from their children, much like we're experiencing right at this moment. And trying to help them with the legal aspects of that and the support aspects of that of trying to work through those very difficult situations and sometimes just responding to rumors. I know that the father was gone while one week and I was doing some work in Raleigh and I got a phone call from one of our parishioners that ICE was doing raids at Walmart. So, I drop whatever I was doing and raced all the way back to the parish to find out what was going on. In the meantime, calling my friends at local law enforcement here who have always been very helpful by the way. And in discovering that was just a rumor was something put out on, on one of the Hispanic radio stations. And it ended up being false alarm, but we were trying to respond because it was so significantly not only affect this parish, but all the Hispanic community that we feel responsible for because at the end of the day as Catholics, social justice is one of our principles that we stay very focused on.
AG: Thank you. So, what are, apart from some of the things that you've already mentioned, some of the biggest challenges that persists for local immigrants and their families?
RB: Well, we worked quite extensively with UNC on a process called the Latino Migration Project. That was a three-year study. That study resulted from my discovering what they were doing and making an application. And we had that study done here. We learned many, many things. I learned many things. I believe city government, county government, learned many things on the needs of the Hispanic population. The needs shouldn't be surprising to most people because the Hispanic population, the families want what any family wants. They want safety and security. They want the dignity of having a job, of having a job that they can afford to raise their families with. So, you know, we need to stay focused on that regardless of what happens on the national scene. We feel like we have an obligation to those families, to those people trying to achieve what any American citizen would want. And increasingly that's who these people are and that's to find a life for themselves and satisfy the needs of themselves and their family. So that's what I try to keep my attention focused on is how do we do that? Not in a static way, but in a change way? How do we provide for their needs as they make those transitions? Many of the Hispanic population, you know, came here to work and have jobs now are getting elderly and I don't think anybody's doing an adequate job of trying to address their needs, especially if they're undocumented because they have no way of having those needs addressed. There's no social security. There's no Medicaid for them. But there's going to be this massive population that are just going to continue to fall through the cracks. But then there are the families and the young children and how do we meet their needs? The DACA kids. Many of whom are very successful in high school are being accepted to colleges and having--. Are being forced to pay these massive tuitions that they can’t afford and trying to make a life for themselves and wanting to become Americans. And right now, everything's being closed off to them. So, so those are just some of the things that keep me up at night. I'm sure keeps them Father Ippolito up. And all the people here. We have a Hispanic--. Right next door is our Hispanic minister who that's what her job is. Is trying to serve those needs. So, you know, there is a pretty, pretty challenging things, especially in an environment we have today.
AG: Okay. Have you seen any large changes in the way that people are feeling about maybe security since the election or any instances of family separation?
RB: We fortunately have not had any real family separation here, likes it’s being experienced on the border. No, that's just not, has not been a massive problem. It's not that it isn't a problem because it's always potentially there. The biggest thing that’s going on right now is just the incredible anxiety and uncertainty of people just don't know what's going to happen. And there is nothing that's happening right now and nothing that I see in the foreseeable future that seems to be heading towards any kind of resolution. I mean, I, it's really hard for people. It's hard for me when I, when I can't find a resolution or when I see conflict that I, I can't resolve it. And I am, you know, an older middle-class white guy with all the privileges that go with that. And how would you feel if, if every day of your life you didn't, you didn't even know if somebody was going to knock on your door and take you away. And your children are going to be left here. I mean that's hard to live with and it just is so disconcerting. One of the things that is happening in this community is that, and that I'm very proud of, is this is a community that has a lot of compassion and that people are concerned about that and they're trying to be supportive. They're trying to be supportive at the governmental level, at the civic level. Not just this church, but all the churches. They understand those issues and are trying to be whatever help they can be. But at the end of the day, if I don't know what's going to happen to me, if someone knocks on my door. That's a horrible way to live and it's just so sad and injustice.
AG: Moving topics a little bit. Could you tell us a little bit about the Building Integrated Communities project in Siler City and how you’ve been involved with that?
RB: I have not been directly involved in that project. Of course, I was very involved in the one here in Sanford and Lee County, but we're trying to serve as a resource for them in Siler City. It's not going to be as a larger community as this one was here, but they're going to have many of the same issues that are going on. Coincidentally, I also work with the St. Julia Catholic church in Siler City. And so, I'm having those conversations with that parish as well. And the former police chief and I are friends. So, we've had many conversations and there are some wonderful people in Siler city. Both in the Hispanic community and the Anglo community. I'm very involved with the boys and Girls Club for Sanford and Lee County and Chatham County, including Siler City, which has a very active boys and girls club. So, we're trying to also use those kinds of mechanisms to try to feed into whatever [inaudible] they have going forward. But I have a pretty good feeling about Siler City because they are a very open and receptive community. That's not always boasted upon or promoted too much outside of small communities like ours, but it's very important. And I think the compassion that any community has is very important.
AG: Could you tell me a bit about the Building Integrated Communities project in Sanford?
RB: It was a wonderful program. Again, before I retired and while I was in formation for the Deaconate program, I made the application for the project. At that time there was only a few communities who had been through it. Winston-Salem and Greenville stick out in my mind. I think there were a couple of others. But we were one of the very first ones. And when Jessica Lee White and Dr. Gill came to us and we talked about the program, we just use that as a jumping point to try to get into issues that we thought were extremely important. And we had some real successes. The research that took place that we were very much involved in. Having a very active geographic information system program here. We were very, very able to supply a lot of the information we need it for the research. To have those public meetings for the Hispanic population probably for the first time really had a chance to come and speak about their needs, especially to appointed and elected officials to, the police chief and the sheriff and social services, the schools. It was just really nice to see. Let them have that opportunity to speak about their needs. So that was a very interesting process and I think some folks were surprised. The first thing that surprised me was the number of Hispanics who were willing to come out and talk. Again, you know, a lot of them were under the fear of deportation or being recorded or having--. But they were coming out sometimes a little reluctantly, but they were coming out in this environment that we tried to keep a feeling of trust and confidence and speaking about their needs. So, we had, I think, a lot of success in that the formation of the Hispanic Council here which has been very active. It was very helpful. The mayor was extremely supportive. Coming to speak at these events who came and spoke at an event one day where there was, gosh, several hundred people inside our church to speak to them, saying that the community, the city, wanted to help support their needs and be responsive to them. The police department coming and saying we want to help you. We don't want to just, you know, catch you driving without a license. So, or the lawyers coming in and talking about, you know, how to do powers of attorney. So, we had a lot of success during that process, both within the formal structure of the Latino Migration Project, but also add on things. Just ways to support the needs that they might have. One of our churches across town, the United Methodist Church in Jonesboro, created a program called El Refugio, which they got a grant from Duke and they were trying to serve Hispanic needs. The community college was very specific in trying to serve a lot of needs. So, all those things that happened during that process. And were all very successful and I'm very proud of the success that we had. But we also had some failures. One of the needs that we kept hearing over and over and over again was because the undocumented population are denied the ability to get a driver's license. They couldn't do simple things like go to the bank and cash a check or, you know, go to the grocery store and show an id or anything that everybody else is pretty comfortable with. And we tried really, really hard to develop a local ID program here, which like they've done in other communities. So, they were very successful in doing it in Burlington. Asheboro, I believe was successful in doing it. We couldn't get the first base here. There was--. It was about this time that the legislature was passing, trying to pass a bill that the disallowed any kind of local IDs. We just had a lot of resistance and were never able to get that done. And I was disappointed that that couldn't happen and still think is something that we should do. But the other biggest disappointment. I'm going to say is a disappointment. The Latino population, they need to become more and more engaged. Quickly. Because they are so significant. And we're talking about people who are citizens now. A significant percentage of our population are Hispanic. They need to be running for public office. You know, being an Irish American, you know, I knew that's what they, my family, our folks did in places like Boston and Philadelphia and New York. And the Latino population here has got to do the same thing. They've got to become engaged in the civic activities and political activities in one of these communities so that they are adequately represented and can speak for themselves.
AG: Could you tell me a little bit more about the positive outcomes and maybe the lasting effects of that BIC program? Things that you still see today?
RB: I think the very seeds, the mustard seeds, to use a religious term, of that process of that small little seeds is that they will start taking that process of being integrated into these communities and letting it blossom to become again engaged. This is not something that's going to happen overnight, but because of this project, I think a leadership structure is now being established within the Hispanic community. I think that that the recognition of the entire community, the Anglo community, the community at large, are recognizing that the Hispanic population is not only here but important. I know that a number of elected officials realize how important that population is. Our business community understands that if that population wasn't here, this community would take a significant economic hit. So that feeling of mutual need and mutual support, I think starting with this product and has grown pretty significantly since, since the project started and continues to grow every day.
AG: Thank you. That's most of what I have prepared. But is there anything else that you'd like to add? Maybe about the church or the community or anything in your career that you've experienced?
RB: I have gotten a lot of satisfaction in not only working on this project but also working in this community, both as a public servant and also as a member of the clergy. It has added dimensions to my life, you know, I'm almost 70 years old that I didn't really expect to happen in my life. So, it's been a very satisfying, very gratifying. But it's also made me more aware of what has always attracted me to my own faith. And that's that Catholic social justice that probably got birthed to me in the very early part of my life when I looked around and saw so much injustice in a country that promises justice and equality. It gave me the opportunity to say I need to be a part of it. And here at the end of my career, later in my life, I'm having the ability to fulfill a lot of things that started out when, gosh, when I was a teenager. And it's been very important to me and very gratifying.
AG: Thank you very much.
RB: You’re welcome very much.
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Es: Resumen
Robert (Bob) Bridwell es un diácono de la iglesia católica St. Stephen en la ciudad de Sanford, NC. También trabajó muchos años como el director de planificación para el municipio de Sanford. En la entrevista, Diácono Bridwell describe los servicios que provee la iglesia para residentes que han migrado de Latinoamérica. Él comparte sobre su carrera larga de planificación urbana y activismo y habla sobre cómo los cambios demográficos en el condado de Lee han dado forma de nuevo las necesidades de los miembros de la comunida. Habla sobre los desafíos más grandes que afrontan las familias inmigrantes (mayoría hispanas o latinas) en las partes rurales de Carolina del Norte. El habla de su rol en la iniciativa Construyendo comunidades integradas, una colaboración con el municipio de Sanford y el “Latino Migration Project” en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill. También nos cuente de su trabajo en la iglesia para buscar a soluciones y recursos para estos problemas. La entrevista tomó lugar en la oficina de Diácono Bridwell en la iglesia católica de St. Stephen y duró aproximadamente 37 minutos. Fuera de su oficina, había construcción en la iglesia. Había ruidos de construcción durante la entrevista, pero no interfirieron en la habilidad de escuchar la entrevista. Alexandra es una estudiante posgrado en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill. Ella está trabajando en su maestría en la enseñanza con una especialidad en la educación primaria y la enseñanza de inglés como segundo idioma. Ella se graduó de la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill en mayo 2018 con un título en la Lingüística Hispana y otro título en la Economía. Durante su último semestre, ella fue entrenada en la historia oral por el Proyecto de Nuevas Raíces. Diácono Bridwell ha sido ordenado como diácono católico desde 2014, el mismo año en lo cual se jubiló después de 45 años como urbanista. Desde entonces, ha trabajado en la iglesia católica de St. Stephen. Durante su tiempo allí, ha servido en misas hispanohablantes a través de un intérprete y ha aprendido a proveer ciertos servicios a cerca de retos legales afrontados por inmigrantes.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Robert Bridwell, 19 junio 2018, R-0990, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-0990 -- Bridwell, Robert.
Description
An account of the resource
This interview was conducted by interviewer Alexandra Graham with interviewee Deacon Robert (Bob) Bridwell. The main focus of the interview is Deacon Bridwell’s responsibilities at St. Stephen Catholic Church. Much of his work in the church surrounds immigration services. He tells us about the services St. Stephen’s provides as well as what projects he personally works on. He shares about his long career of city planning and activism and talks about how demographic changes in Lee County (the county where he resides) have reshaped the needs of community members and therefore what services he works with. He talks about the biggest challenges facing immigrant families (majority Hispanic/Latino) in rural North Carolina and how his church is working to provide solutions and resources for those problems. He also discusses his involvement in the Building Integrated Communities initiative, a collaboration with the City of Sanford, Lee County, and the Latino Migration Project at UNC Chapel Hill. The interview, which took place in Deacon Bridwell’s office at St. Stephen Catholic Church, lasted about 37 minutes. Outside of his office, construction was going on to build a new addition to the church. There were construction noises throughout the interview, but it does not interfere with the ability to hear what was said.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-19
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/28600">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
Format
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R0990_Audio.mp3
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/9ffa2fe4945748c65f4893040f1f49b0.mp3
3fa85c9cc7e81b9b0e68db8dc203dd8d
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/3d534fc9f6f1e82ceddea19ffa382281.pdf
04f9dc0243192c5c5b466f99999c52c3
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0857
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
26 February 2016
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Martínez, Vianey Lemus.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Students
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1994
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Tulancingo -- Hidalgo -- Mexico
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Durham -- Durham County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(98.3676° W 20.0897° N),1994,1;POINT(78.8986° W 35.9940° N),2003,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Reuland, Frances.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Vianey Lemus Martinez is a fourth year undergraduate at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill studying Spanish. She grew up in Tulancingo, Hidalgo in Mexico until age nine when she and her family moved to Durham, North Carolina where they have lived ever since. Lemus Martinez was hesitant to apply for a legal status under the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program that began in 2012. However, after her father, a construction worker, was in a car accident that left him car-less, Lemus Martinez applied for the status and obtained a driver’s license, allowing her family to get a car. With DACA, Lemus Martinez has enjoyed benefits of driving and expanded employment opportunities. She hopes to travel abroad to Mexico as part of an educational experience. Nevertheless, she feels that DACA is only a short-term Band-Aid solution to larger immigration issues in the U.S. The uncertain future often leaves Lemus Martinez feeling anxious, but she finds solace in the power of the people to push through the challenges that may come.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Vianey Lemus Martinez by Frances Reuland, 26 February 2016, R-0857, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/27100
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Family; DREAMers and DACA; Citizenship and immigration; Legal issues
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
[00:00:07] Frances Reuland: Ok. My name is Frances Reuland. It is February 26th, 2016. This interview is taking place at UNC-Chapel Hill in Davis Library, and it is approximately 6:30 pm. I will let my interviewee state her name and the consent to record this interview.
Vianey Lemus Martinez: My name is Vianey Lemus Martinez and you have all my consent to record the interview.
FR: Great. So I just wanted to start off by stating that Vianey was interviewed three years ago, or almost three years ago, in April of 2013 by Antonio de Jesus Alanís, and that interview can be found on the Nuevas Raíces website. That interview had more of a focus on education, but now that Vianey is here with us again, I’m going to ask her about her experience with DACA because since then she has applied and received deferred action status. So with that yeah I’m just going to start. So just to start off, can you briefly explain what that means? Like what is DACA? I know you can Google it [Laughter], but it might just be helpful to just hear--(Vianey interjects “yeah”) your interpretation of it.
VLM: Yeah, so I guess yeah I will just tell you my understanding of it but I think usually the way I think of DACA. It’s, it’s complicated because there are all these terms. [00:01:51] So I think of it as a status. But it’s a no-lawful status so I don’t have any kind of legal status in the country, but it’s essentially me telling the government I’m here in the U.S. without any documentation but look at all of these different requirements that I can fulfill because I’ve been here so long. And I think they basically say like OK since I know you’re here we’re going to let you be in the country for two years. The promise in a way is that I won’t get deported, and they will give me a license, a social security number to work, a permit to work. And yeah I think those are the benefits. Yeah essentially like opportunity for work and a license and depending on the state.
FR: Great. When specifically did you get it since the last interview?
VLM: So, I can’t remember exactly. So I remember when I, I was a first year at Carolina. I think that summer after being a first year at Carolina was when they approved the program. I think it was the summer of 2012, so like June I think. And I remember being a little--I was very hesitant about applying. I didn’t feel like I needed to apply because, so the DACA program came from the DREAMers or the DREAMer movement when a lot of students came forward about their status and essentially they call it “coming out of the closet,” you know comparing it to a different movement but essentially coming out of the shadows and telling people like look I’m undocumented and I’m here in this country but I don’t want to be in the shadows anymore. Because ever since I can remember, I don’t remember a time when my parents were like you’re undocumented, or like you’re illegal, nothing like that. But I do remember--I just know that I knew. I just knew that I was undocumented—how exactly I don’t remember—but so that was something you just knew you don’t tell anyone. When I was in high school like no one knew about my status. I think different to other students that I knew who didn’t have documents I was performing well in school and I think that because I was a good student people just automatically assumed that I was also a citizen, which doesn’t really make sense in my head to me, but to people it did. No one ever questioned my status. I think it wasn’t until senior year that my status became an issue. [00:04:42] But so when I was already at UNC I didn’t feel like I needed to apply to the program because a lot of students that were pushing for the program was in order to be able to afford going to school. I think the main idea was to get a legal status and be able to afford in-state tuition. But by the time that the program passed I was already in college, I had been lucky enough to get financial help to attend school, so like I said I didn’t feel the need to do it. And I was also scared because it was like basically me coming forward to immigration telling them that I was here. And not just that but also I had to put in my parents’ information and that really made me really scared because I think my thought was like well, how do I know that they’re really not going to come one day and take me? Or like, what if in five years the program is gone and they decide to go through all those files and start deporting people from there? Because I think even though they said they’re not supposed to do that, I’m like what’s the guarantee that they’re not going to do it? So because of that I think I waited until maybe a year or so before I actually applied. I think I applied the following year or so. So yeah I think I can’t remember the question anymore.
FR: No you did. I just asked you about when you got it, but you covered that pretty well. So in the first interview, you emphasized the importance of your family in your daily life and in getting through challenges that you faced in the first year of college. So how did your family impact your decision to apply for DACA?
VLM: Yeah, well they definitely played a huge role. As I mentioned I didn’t want to do it. But then in the summer of I guess 2013, so the following summer -- [00:06:41] my dad had a car accident, and my dad is a construction worker and he needs his car to get to work. So he was going to work that morning, and he was at a stoplight. The stoplight turned green, so he went forward. But a car coming from the other side didn’t stop at the red light, so he hit my dad, and his car was completely destroyed. Luckily he was totally fine, nothing happened to him, which was almost a miracle I think compared to how the car ended up. But so in North Carolina, if you don’t have a social security or a state I.D., you can’t get a license, which means you can’t get a registration for a license plate for a car. So it was like all those things that trickled down. So when my dad got in the car accident, he didn’t have a car anymore, which meant he needed a new one to get to work, but he didn’t have a license because of his immigration status. So at the time I remember him trying to figure out what are we going to do because I need a car to get to work, but I can’t get a registration. Like we could buy a car but we couldn’t get a registration because of--he didn’t have the documents for it. So the options then were for him to try to find someone that could perhaps register the car under their name, so essentially it would be under someone’s name but he would use the car. Or he was also thinking of traveling to a different state. I think he was thinking of going all the way to Washington State, because over there even if you didn’t have a license you could still get the registration for the car. So you still get a license plate because he needed the license plate for the car. But then I guess at that time I figured if I apply to DACA I could get a license, and if I could get a license, my dad could get the registration for his car. So even though I think I was afraid of doing it, I remember talking with my parents and telling them this is the best solution that we have because I didn’t want my dad going so far. I also I think I was scared of someone maybe just taking his money and promising that they would get the license plate for the car here in North Carolina and then not doing it, because we had heard of people doing that already. So we decided that I was going to apply for DACA. It actually took a while for me to get the paperwork and everything. Like a couple of months. Which in between my dad was, he was getting rides from other people. It was a hard time, but we managed through, and then eventually I remember even when I had to--like I got the permit, which was really exciting, but then I had to apply to get my license because I didn’t even know how to drive [Laughter]. So I had to learn how to drive too while I was waiting for the permit. So then I remember when I went to get my license I super scared, because I was scared I was not going to get it, and then that was going to be another issue. But I was lucky. I passed the driving test. I passed the other test, so I was able to get my license, and then within days I think were able to get my dad’s license registration and everything figured out. So that was that pushing factor that really pushed me to want to go and just apply for DACA even though I had some fears before.
FR: Wow, that’s a powerful story. You must’ve been--you must’ve felt a lot of pressure, almost like your family situation was relying on you in this way. And even though it wasn’t something you wanted to do originally.
VLM: Exactly. I think if it hadn’t been for that, I don’t think I would’ve applied. Like I said, I really don’t feel like I had the need for it, which I think I’m lucky for that. I was already on campus. I didn’t really need to drive. I wasn’t working because I wanted to focus on school to keep my scholarship, so there was really no need, but then you know things happen, and it just felt like it was the best solution. And it took a while to go through the whole process. It was also money. The first time that I applied it was almost five hundred dollars for just the application, and then it was five hundred dollars for the lawyer that helped. [00:11:15] So it was a total of a thousand dollars to get it, which was really frustrating too, because I remember I filled out all the paperwork, I looked for all of the different papers that they--like you need to fulfill certain requirements to be approved for the program. So I found all the documents that I needed. I feel like I did everything by myself, and then we went to a lawyer because I was afraid that if--because if you don’t get approved you can’t reapply. So I was really scared that I would apply and then for like a dumb mistake I’m not going to get it. But when I went to the lawyer, the lawyer was just like oh, everything looks great. You filled out everything well. They literally just put dividers in my papers to separate, and we paid five hundred dollars. So it was really frustrating because of that, because I just felt like that was something I could’ve done myself. But I think also there was so much like--I don’t know the word to use--I don’t know like tension or uncertainty with this program, that it was always like just like this one opportunity that we have to take and you have to be super careful. Because if you make one mistake they could deny it or you can you know like get yourself in more trouble. Because also a lot of people were like if you don’t have a clean record don’t even apply like immigration is going to come and get you. But I had a clean record so I wasn’t worried about that, but it just felt a lot of pressure as you mentioned. So that’s why we relied on lawyers and then wasted that money essentially.
FR: Oh my goodness.
VLM: But, at least I got [Laughter] the permit so that was nice.
FR: Good for you. You mentioned that at first--so you felt like you didn’t need it and you were hesitant to apply, but -- [00:13:06] have you found, now that you do have it--are there benefits that you didn’t expect that you’re like--other than of course being able to get your dad a car for work--have you been like wow I’m glad I did this? What kind of--are there any moments like that, where unexpected benefits?
VLM: Yeah. I think, this may be silly but, it’s so convenient to be able to drive [Laughter], and to--so in my hometown from where--I’m from Durham, North--well I was not born there, but I’ve lived in Durham, North Carolina for a long time so I call it home. And in Durham there has been a lot of checkpoints very constantly. Like there’s a lot of checkpoints and it’s not--it’s very known that people get--like you get tickets if you don’t have a license obviously, but sometimes people get taken to jail if you are driving and it’s not been their first time that they get you without a license. And it’s--like if you don’t have a license at all and you can’t get a license, chances are they’re going to catch you more than once. So, first I wouldn’t drive. But then I think one of the things that I’ve enjoyed is like I learned how to drive, and when I’m home I’m not scared of just having to look out, or like having to look up if they’re sending messages like saying oh there’s a checkpoint here or a checkpoint there like that’s something that I don’t have to worry about, which I think--it’s really--it’s great. Like it’s something that I don’t think I had considered before when I didn’t want to apply. But now, even for example, if I’m with--if I go home and we’re going somewhere my parents already know I’m driving, they’re not driving. Because it’s like why are we going to risk it when I can drive for us? Or like if we go to the store or anything because it’s so -- [00:14:58] I recall one time in the neighborhood that I used to live, literally outside of our neighborhood they put a checkpoint. And if you look at the demographics it’s really frustrating because I think it--it was--it’s on purpose. They say it’s not on purpose but it’s on purpose that they put it there like it’s strategic. And I remember we--I was with my parents and my brother and we were coming--I don’t know where we were coming from--but it was a Sunday afternoon and we were coming back home, like we were in a great mood. I remember us being, you know like, fine and you see all the police cars. And at that moment my mom--like I remember her face just like--it almost--like her skin was just white of the fear in her. And she was like--my dad was driving, and she was like you’re going to get a ticket. I hope they don’t say anything. What are we going to do? And my dad is always like well don’t worry; it’s just a ticket. We’re going to pay it--like I’m going to pay it. I’m going to go to court if I need to and it’s going to be fine. But I think my mom that fear of him having to go to the authorities--something like that--it really gets to her. And luckily that time my dad--because he had a license before because he has been here a long time, so he had a license before when you could get a license, but it expired like I don’t know how many years ago. But he still has it with him. So he showed it to the officer, and the officer--he actually said--like he was like oh just make sure to get this renewed.
FR: Wow.
VLM: And I know that he was probably not supposed to do that, and he probably knew why my dad didn’t have his license. But I just remember I--first I think of my mom and just how all the emotions that she felt at the moment. And also like I was super relieved you know--felt happy that there’s people like that officer that just let us go that time. But I think that’s a situation that I don’t have to worry about personally because even if there’s a checkpoint I’m like look at my license I have one. So it’s definitely one of the things that I didn’t realize. I think also something else with an employer’s permit that I didn’t have before. I have now --[00:17:09] I can apply to a lot more jobs than I did before. And I think before my mentality was like I’ve figured it out until now I’m going to keep figuring it out, like it will be fine. But now I think I realize that it’s--it’s a lot easier in different ways. So for example, even after for graduation, the program that I applied to has been because I have DACA. So they’re able to take DACA recipients, but bef--if I didn’t have anything I wouldn’t be able to apply. So just little things like that that I guess then I didn’t think of but now I realize.
FR: Yeah. Great. Do you have friends or family members that have also gone through the process? Are you’re--would you say that your closest friends--?
VLM: I actually so--my best friend she also did DACA as well, and I think our journeys have been very different, especially because of our educational journeys. But she also has DACA and I think the first thing that I always think of is just the driving and being able to drive. It’s really easy. Recently we just submitted the application for my brother, so hopefully we’ll be getting good news soon. But yeah he--he’s really excited too because he’s going to get to drive, because up until now we were like no you’re not driving. But so he’s excited about that as well.
FR: So, individuals who are granted this status, like you said--it’s a--like it’s legal for them to work. Do you work with it? Have you had--()? [Laughter] Yeah I guess do you work and if so can you explain?
VLM: Yeah. I’ve been—I’ve had opportunity to work like small jobs here and there with, especially within the school. I know like for example I worked with a professor just translating a lot of terms for a project research project that she was doing. I currently again work with an organization that does recruitment on campus, and I think the only reasons is because I have the employer’s permit. A lot of times I’ve--I’ve also experienced that people don’t really understand what it means. Like I show them my card that has the deferred action--or not deferred action but like my employment card. Or like I tell them oh I’m a DACA recipient, and they look at me very confused. Because I think especially within--one because--I mean it’s not even North Carolina but I guess of the institution I’m in perhaps, not a lot of students are in the same situation as me. We’re in a very big campus and I think I know like ten people and that’s all. So people often don’t really know how to help us navigate the system because they’ve never encountered someone in our situation, which that has been interesting because--sometimes I don’t even know. I’m like you’re supposed to know, I don’t know how to do this financial thing and stuff. But a lot of people are like learn as we go, so we learn together as they’re helping me navigate the systems of like how are we going to put you in the payroll because you don’t fit any of this things? Or like you fit this but you don’t fit this so how are we going to make this work? So I think that has been interesting also, just navigating those systems.
FR: Cool. So also in the first interview, you mentioned that you would love to travel abroad. Have you traveled outside--have you been able to leave the country under DACA?
VLM: So the hope is [Laughter] that soon I will. So up to now I have not. That’s definitely something that’s been on my mind. That’s something I’ve been wanting to do. [00:21:09] But so with DACA there’s only three different reasons of why you can travel abroad with DACA: under educational purposes; for employers or for your job; or for humanitarian reasons. Usually a lot of people that travel abroad it is for humanitarian reasons, because it’s a lot more flexible. But up to this point, I personally haven’t came across a reason of why I’ve had to travel because of humanitarian reasons. So right now I’m actually in a course where for during our spring break we would travel to Mexico. So I’m definitely excited because that was kind of like the opportunity. I really felt--I’m a senior right now so I really felt like that wasn’t going to happen anymore, which I had kind of given up on the idea of studying abroad per say during school. But it was really cool that I was able to be involved in this class this course and have now that opportunity. I submitted my paperwork about a month and a half ago, maybe two months. And unfortunately I have not heard back from immigration yet, which is definitely making me stressful [Laughter]. Because without the permit I can’t leave the country, and our break is really close to this date. And I’ve called and essentially all they say is you just have to wait, like you just have to wait and wait, and I’m just like I’m running out of time like I really want to know. So it’s been really frustrating I think navigating that, because it’s just money that’s being invested and time is going, and I still don’t have an answer. And essentially the deadline that they have to respond to my request is March eight, and I think we’re supposed to leave March eleventh. So if I don’t hear back by the deadline that they have, I really don’t know what I’m supposed to do within those days. So that’s definitely something that’s adding some stress into my life right, because it’s just like I said so much uncertainty.
FR: That’s a wow--that’s a tough situation. So as a whole, what emotions would you say that you associate with DACA? Does it make you--like if you hear that, do you feel--what do you feel? Was the first thing that comes to your mind the stress? Or maybe the relief that you can drive? Or like maybe a mixture of both [Laughter]? What you would you say? How would you describe it?
VLM: I think I definitely have a love-hate relationship. I think of all the benefits that I’ve had now. And I’m very thankful--like I’m very thankful for those. Now also I’ve mentioned like I’ve realized my life would be very different and my opportunities would be very different if I didn’t have DACA. [00:24:15] But I think there’s also a lot of moments where I have been frustrated because I feel--I feel this is like the government putting a Band-Aid on a bigger issue instead of actually finding a solution for the issue if that makes any sense. I--like I said I think the DREAMer movement, we were trying to push for a change, like for a real change. And even though I understand the politics, there’s tons of politics behind it, but it was just kind of like let me throw this at you so you can be quiet and calm down and say that we gave you something. So I think I get hose feelings as well. So even though I realize how much it has benefited me, I also feel like it’s not enough, and I don’t want to settle at a point that I’m just thinking about the good things about it, and thinking of like oh I’m so lucky and I’m so--like I’m so glad that the government did this for us, because at the same time--I don’t know--people may not agree, but I feel like I also deserve--like I know when I entered this country it was not through a legal means, but it wasn’t my decision. And I think that just is like other even citizens I don’t they would be punished--the children would not be punished for something their parents did. Like if a parent goes and kills someone, you’re not going to put their children in jail. And I feel like a lot of times that’s how they do to us, because I came in when I was nine years old. I couldn’t tell my mom no mom I’m not going with you. You go to the United States with my dad, like what am I going to do? I’m going to go with my mom because I wanted to see my dad. So I just feel like sometimes I’m punished, and a lot of us are punished for something that we didn’t choose. And people ask me like where are you from? Or like where is home for you? I think Durham, North Carolina! I don’t think Mexico. So it just doesn’t make sense to me. And I think sometimes DACA--like I’m grateful for it but I don’t want to settle. In my license for example--[00:26:28] on the license there’s a line that says no legal status in red letters. And every time that I give it, whether this is like I’m going out with my friends and they ask me for my I.D.--when I give it to people, I always get that feeling of like what are they going to think? Or like, what is going through their head right now? They’re probably doubt--like wondering why does it have those red letters. And they’re probably not going to ask me, but that’s something that they’re thinking, and it makes me very self-conscious. And I think like you know, most people probably don’t have to worry about that. But that’s real, when I go to someone and give them my I.D. it makes me anxious because I’m just like I don’t know. Maybe they’re going to be like oh that’s fake. Why does have those letters--? I don’t know. But I think yeah, so I have mixed emotions about it. I think it could be better [Laughter].
FR: That was a great answer. So I guess I’ll--this might be our last question but--so you know, we are in the midst of a presidential campaign for this country, and--[00:27:37] some of the candidates just outright stated that they--if they’re elected president, day one, they will get rid of the program. How would that affect you? What happens if it just goes away?
VLM: You know that’s something I wonder. I think for example, like I wonder with like with my car, my dad’s car. What’s going to happen there? Will they take the license plates because I don’t have a license? Or maybe if I have to renew or like I can’t do that anymore? I think that’s the first thing that comes to my mind, and then also for me for example I have a job offer for after graduation, but it’s because of DACA. So if I don’t have DACA then I don’t have a job, which is definitely--I don’t know--it’s frustrating because there’s so much uncertainty like how am I going to plan for that [Laughter]? Because I don’t know. And then I think internally I also think of--if they take away the program, what is immigration going to do with all of those names and all of those addresses and all of that people? I think I would definitely live in fear of me and my family of one day them knocking the door. And, like how can you deny if they have any paperwork? Like I’m stating that I don’t--I’m not--I don’t have any legal status, you know? So yeah it would definitely be very scary, it would be very scary if that was the case.
FR: Yeah. So would you say that you think--do you think about the future a lot? Or do you find yourself--do you find yourself stressing out about all of those things? Or do you feel like you’re able to go day to day and just not--and are you able--how much do you think about the future and that kind of thing?
VLM: I think I’ve almost this mechanism of like I’m just going to ignore it for now, because if I think about it too much, it really stresses me out. It really makes me almost anxious about it. I’m really hopeful that this country would not want the leadership of individuals that have so much hate and--. It has blown my mind to see how many people support some ideas. Like I’m just blown away at how far some of those candidates have made it. I mean it’s scary because I’m like people supported that [Laughter]. But yeah I think I just try to avoid to think about it now. Obviously I follow, try to follow the news and see how things are going, but I’m like I’m going to try not to worry about it. I think also--I also think of the people and the power that there is within people. And I think if something like that was to go away, I think there would be major movement in the country and people would push. And so I think that also just keeps me--keeps me want to go on--like you know it’s ok it’s going to be fine. Like worst comes to worst we’re going to make things happen. So I think I see hope there [Laughter].
FR: That’s awesome. Do you have anything else that you want to add?
VLM: No, I think we’re good. [Laughter]
FR: Awesome. Alright, well thanks so much for doing this interview.
VLM: No problem, thank you.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Estudiantes
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Vianey Lemus Martínez es una estudiante de pregrado de cuarto año en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill, que está estudiando Español. Creció en Tulancingo, en Hidalgo, en México, hasta que tenía nueve años, cuando ella y su familia se mudaron a Durham en Carolina del Norte donde han vivido desde entonces. Lemus Martínez estaba indecisa sobre solicitar estatus legal bajo el programa de Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA, por sus siglas en inglés) que fue creado en 2012. Sin embargo, cuando su padre, un obrero de la construcción, sufrió un accidente de automóvil que lo dejó sin coche, Lemus Martínez solicitó el estatus y obtuvo una licencia de conducir que le permitió a su familia obtener un coche. Con DACA, Lemus Martínez ha disfrutado de la capacidad de conducir y también de más oportunidades de empleo. Ella espera viajar a México como parte de una experiencia educativa. No obstante, ella siente que DACA es una solución insuficiente al problema de la inmigración en los Estados Unidos. El futuro incierto con frecuencia hace que Lemus Martínez se sienta ansiosa, pero ella encuentra consuelo en el poder que la gente tiene para superar los desafíos que vengan.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Vianey Lemus Martínez por Frances Reuland, 26 Febrero 2016, R-0857, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Familia; Ciudadanía e inmigración; Asuntos legales; Movimiento de jóvenes 'Soñadores' y Acción Diferida
Es: Transcripción
[00:00:07] Frances Reuland: Ok. My name is Frances Reuland. It is February 26th, 2016. This interview is taking place at UNC-Chapel Hill in Davis Library, and it is approximately 6:30 pm. I will let my interviewee state her name and the consent to record this interview.
Vianey Lemus Martinez: My name is Vianey Lemus Martinez and you have all my consent to record the interview.
FR: Great. So I just wanted to start off by stating that Vianey was interviewed three years ago, or almost three years ago, in April of 2013 by Antonio de Jesus Alanís, and that interview can be found on the Nuevas Raíces website. That interview had more of a focus on education, but now that Vianey is here with us again, I’m going to ask her about her experience with DACA because since then she has applied and received deferred action status. So with that yeah I’m just going to start. So just to start off, can you briefly explain what that means? Like what is DACA? I know you can Google it [Laughter], but it might just be helpful to just hear--(Vianey interjects “yeah”) your interpretation of it.
VLM: Yeah, so I guess yeah I will just tell you my understanding of it but I think usually the way I think of DACA. It’s, it’s complicated because there are all these terms. [00:01:51] So I think of it as a status. But it’s a no-lawful status so I don’t have any kind of legal status in the country, but it’s essentially me telling the government I’m here in the U.S. without any documentation but look at all of these different requirements that I can fulfill because I’ve been here so long. And I think they basically say like OK since I know you’re here we’re going to let you be in the country for two years. The promise in a way is that I won’t get deported, and they will give me a license, a social security number to work, a permit to work. And yeah I think those are the benefits. Yeah essentially like opportunity for work and a license and depending on the state.
FR: Great. When specifically did you get it since the last interview?
VLM: So, I can’t remember exactly. So I remember when I, I was a first year at Carolina. I think that summer after being a first year at Carolina was when they approved the program. I think it was the summer of 2012, so like June I think. And I remember being a little--I was very hesitant about applying. I didn’t feel like I needed to apply because, so the DACA program came from the DREAMers or the DREAMer movement when a lot of students came forward about their status and essentially they call it “coming out of the closet,” you know comparing it to a different movement but essentially coming out of the shadows and telling people like look I’m undocumented and I’m here in this country but I don’t want to be in the shadows anymore. Because ever since I can remember, I don’t remember a time when my parents were like you’re undocumented, or like you’re illegal, nothing like that. But I do remember--I just know that I knew. I just knew that I was undocumented—how exactly I don’t remember—but so that was something you just knew you don’t tell anyone. When I was in high school like no one knew about my status. I think different to other students that I knew who didn’t have documents I was performing well in school and I think that because I was a good student people just automatically assumed that I was also a citizen, which doesn’t really make sense in my head to me, but to people it did. No one ever questioned my status. I think it wasn’t until senior year that my status became an issue. [00:04:42] But so when I was already at UNC I didn’t feel like I needed to apply to the program because a lot of students that were pushing for the program was in order to be able to afford going to school. I think the main idea was to get a legal status and be able to afford in-state tuition. But by the time that the program passed I was already in college, I had been lucky enough to get financial help to attend school, so like I said I didn’t feel the need to do it. And I was also scared because it was like basically me coming forward to immigration telling them that I was here. And not just that but also I had to put in my parents’ information and that really made me really scared because I think my thought was like well, how do I know that they’re really not going to come one day and take me? Or like, what if in five years the program is gone and they decide to go through all those files and start deporting people from there? Because I think even though they said they’re not supposed to do that, I’m like what’s the guarantee that they’re not going to do it? So because of that I think I waited until maybe a year or so before I actually applied. I think I applied the following year or so. So yeah I think I can’t remember the question anymore.
FR: No you did. I just asked you about when you got it, but you covered that pretty well. So in the first interview, you emphasized the importance of your family in your daily life and in getting through challenges that you faced in the first year of college. So how did your family impact your decision to apply for DACA?
VLM: Yeah, well they definitely played a huge role. As I mentioned I didn’t want to do it. But then in the summer of I guess 2013, so the following summer -- [00:06:41] my dad had a car accident, and my dad is a construction worker and he needs his car to get to work. So he was going to work that morning, and he was at a stoplight. The stoplight turned green, so he went forward. But a car coming from the other side didn’t stop at the red light, so he hit my dad, and his car was completely destroyed. Luckily he was totally fine, nothing happened to him, which was almost a miracle I think compared to how the car ended up. But so in North Carolina, if you don’t have a social security or a state I.D., you can’t get a license, which means you can’t get a registration for a license plate for a car. So it was like all those things that trickled down. So when my dad got in the car accident, he didn’t have a car anymore, which meant he needed a new one to get to work, but he didn’t have a license because of his immigration status. So at the time I remember him trying to figure out what are we going to do because I need a car to get to work, but I can’t get a registration. Like we could buy a car but we couldn’t get a registration because of--he didn’t have the documents for it. So the options then were for him to try to find someone that could perhaps register the car under their name, so essentially it would be under someone’s name but he would use the car. Or he was also thinking of traveling to a different state. I think he was thinking of going all the way to Washington State, because over there even if you didn’t have a license you could still get the registration for the car. So you still get a license plate because he needed the license plate for the car. But then I guess at that time I figured if I apply to DACA I could get a license, and if I could get a license, my dad could get the registration for his car. So even though I think I was afraid of doing it, I remember talking with my parents and telling them this is the best solution that we have because I didn’t want my dad going so far. I also I think I was scared of someone maybe just taking his money and promising that they would get the license plate for the car here in North Carolina and then not doing it, because we had heard of people doing that already. So we decided that I was going to apply for DACA. It actually took a while for me to get the paperwork and everything. Like a couple of months. Which in between my dad was, he was getting rides from other people. It was a hard time, but we managed through, and then eventually I remember even when I had to--like I got the permit, which was really exciting, but then I had to apply to get my license because I didn’t even know how to drive [Laughter]. So I had to learn how to drive too while I was waiting for the permit. So then I remember when I went to get my license I super scared, because I was scared I was not going to get it, and then that was going to be another issue. But I was lucky. I passed the driving test. I passed the other test, so I was able to get my license, and then within days I think were able to get my dad’s license registration and everything figured out. So that was that pushing factor that really pushed me to want to go and just apply for DACA even though I had some fears before.
FR: Wow, that’s a powerful story. You must’ve been--you must’ve felt a lot of pressure, almost like your family situation was relying on you in this way. And even though it wasn’t something you wanted to do originally.
VLM: Exactly. I think if it hadn’t been for that, I don’t think I would’ve applied. Like I said, I really don’t feel like I had the need for it, which I think I’m lucky for that. I was already on campus. I didn’t really need to drive. I wasn’t working because I wanted to focus on school to keep my scholarship, so there was really no need, but then you know things happen, and it just felt like it was the best solution. And it took a while to go through the whole process. It was also money. The first time that I applied it was almost five hundred dollars for just the application, and then it was five hundred dollars for the lawyer that helped. [00:11:15] So it was a total of a thousand dollars to get it, which was really frustrating too, because I remember I filled out all the paperwork, I looked for all of the different papers that they--like you need to fulfill certain requirements to be approved for the program. So I found all the documents that I needed. I feel like I did everything by myself, and then we went to a lawyer because I was afraid that if--because if you don’t get approved you can’t reapply. So I was really scared that I would apply and then for like a dumb mistake I’m not going to get it. But when I went to the lawyer, the lawyer was just like oh, everything looks great. You filled out everything well. They literally just put dividers in my papers to separate, and we paid five hundred dollars. So it was really frustrating because of that, because I just felt like that was something I could’ve done myself. But I think also there was so much like--I don’t know the word to use--I don’t know like tension or uncertainty with this program, that it was always like just like this one opportunity that we have to take and you have to be super careful. Because if you make one mistake they could deny it or you can you know like get yourself in more trouble. Because also a lot of people were like if you don’t have a clean record don’t even apply like immigration is going to come and get you. But I had a clean record so I wasn’t worried about that, but it just felt a lot of pressure as you mentioned. So that’s why we relied on lawyers and then wasted that money essentially.
FR: Oh my goodness.
VLM: But, at least I got [Laughter] the permit so that was nice.
FR: Good for you. You mentioned that at first--so you felt like you didn’t need it and you were hesitant to apply, but -- [00:13:06] have you found, now that you do have it--are there benefits that you didn’t expect that you’re like--other than of course being able to get your dad a car for work--have you been like wow I’m glad I did this? What kind of--are there any moments like that, where unexpected benefits?
VLM: Yeah. I think, this may be silly but, it’s so convenient to be able to drive [Laughter], and to--so in my hometown from where--I’m from Durham, North--well I was not born there, but I’ve lived in Durham, North Carolina for a long time so I call it home. And in Durham there has been a lot of checkpoints very constantly. Like there’s a lot of checkpoints and it’s not--it’s very known that people get--like you get tickets if you don’t have a license obviously, but sometimes people get taken to jail if you are driving and it’s not been their first time that they get you without a license. And it’s--like if you don’t have a license at all and you can’t get a license, chances are they’re going to catch you more than once. So, first I wouldn’t drive. But then I think one of the things that I’ve enjoyed is like I learned how to drive, and when I’m home I’m not scared of just having to look out, or like having to look up if they’re sending messages like saying oh there’s a checkpoint here or a checkpoint there like that’s something that I don’t have to worry about, which I think--it’s really--it’s great. Like it’s something that I don’t think I had considered before when I didn’t want to apply. But now, even for example, if I’m with--if I go home and we’re going somewhere my parents already know I’m driving, they’re not driving. Because it’s like why are we going to risk it when I can drive for us? Or like if we go to the store or anything because it’s so -- [00:14:58] I recall one time in the neighborhood that I used to live, literally outside of our neighborhood they put a checkpoint. And if you look at the demographics it’s really frustrating because I think it--it was--it’s on purpose. They say it’s not on purpose but it’s on purpose that they put it there like it’s strategic. And I remember we--I was with my parents and my brother and we were coming--I don’t know where we were coming from--but it was a Sunday afternoon and we were coming back home, like we were in a great mood. I remember us being, you know like, fine and you see all the police cars. And at that moment my mom--like I remember her face just like--it almost--like her skin was just white of the fear in her. And she was like--my dad was driving, and she was like you’re going to get a ticket. I hope they don’t say anything. What are we going to do? And my dad is always like well don’t worry; it’s just a ticket. We’re going to pay it--like I’m going to pay it. I’m going to go to court if I need to and it’s going to be fine. But I think my mom that fear of him having to go to the authorities--something like that--it really gets to her. And luckily that time my dad--because he had a license before because he has been here a long time, so he had a license before when you could get a license, but it expired like I don’t know how many years ago. But he still has it with him. So he showed it to the officer, and the officer--he actually said--like he was like oh just make sure to get this renewed.
FR: Wow.
VLM: And I know that he was probably not supposed to do that, and he probably knew why my dad didn’t have his license. But I just remember I--first I think of my mom and just how all the emotions that she felt at the moment. And also like I was super relieved you know--felt happy that there’s people like that officer that just let us go that time. But I think that’s a situation that I don’t have to worry about personally because even if there’s a checkpoint I’m like look at my license I have one. So it’s definitely one of the things that I didn’t realize. I think also something else with an employer’s permit that I didn’t have before. I have now --[00:17:09] I can apply to a lot more jobs than I did before. And I think before my mentality was like I’ve figured it out until now I’m going to keep figuring it out, like it will be fine. But now I think I realize that it’s--it’s a lot easier in different ways. So for example, even after for graduation, the program that I applied to has been because I have DACA. So they’re able to take DACA recipients, but bef--if I didn’t have anything I wouldn’t be able to apply. So just little things like that that I guess then I didn’t think of but now I realize.
FR: Yeah. Great. Do you have friends or family members that have also gone through the process? Are you’re--would you say that your closest friends--?
VLM: I actually so--my best friend she also did DACA as well, and I think our journeys have been very different, especially because of our educational journeys. But she also has DACA and I think the first thing that I always think of is just the driving and being able to drive. It’s really easy. Recently we just submitted the application for my brother, so hopefully we’ll be getting good news soon. But yeah he--he’s really excited too because he’s going to get to drive, because up until now we were like no you’re not driving. But so he’s excited about that as well.
FR: So, individuals who are granted this status, like you said--it’s a--like it’s legal for them to work. Do you work with it? Have you had--()? [Laughter] Yeah I guess do you work and if so can you explain?
VLM: Yeah. I’ve been—I’ve had opportunity to work like small jobs here and there with, especially within the school. I know like for example I worked with a professor just translating a lot of terms for a project research project that she was doing. I currently again work with an organization that does recruitment on campus, and I think the only reasons is because I have the employer’s permit. A lot of times I’ve--I’ve also experienced that people don’t really understand what it means. Like I show them my card that has the deferred action--or not deferred action but like my employment card. Or like I tell them oh I’m a DACA recipient, and they look at me very confused. Because I think especially within--one because--I mean it’s not even North Carolina but I guess of the institution I’m in perhaps, not a lot of students are in the same situation as me. We’re in a very big campus and I think I know like ten people and that’s all. So people often don’t really know how to help us navigate the system because they’ve never encountered someone in our situation, which that has been interesting because--sometimes I don’t even know. I’m like you’re supposed to know, I don’t know how to do this financial thing and stuff. But a lot of people are like learn as we go, so we learn together as they’re helping me navigate the systems of like how are we going to put you in the payroll because you don’t fit any of this things? Or like you fit this but you don’t fit this so how are we going to make this work? So I think that has been interesting also, just navigating those systems.
FR: Cool. So also in the first interview, you mentioned that you would love to travel abroad. Have you traveled outside--have you been able to leave the country under DACA?
VLM: So the hope is [Laughter] that soon I will. So up to now I have not. That’s definitely something that’s been on my mind. That’s something I’ve been wanting to do. [00:21:09] But so with DACA there’s only three different reasons of why you can travel abroad with DACA: under educational purposes; for employers or for your job; or for humanitarian reasons. Usually a lot of people that travel abroad it is for humanitarian reasons, because it’s a lot more flexible. But up to this point, I personally haven’t came across a reason of why I’ve had to travel because of humanitarian reasons. So right now I’m actually in a course where for during our spring break we would travel to Mexico. So I’m definitely excited because that was kind of like the opportunity. I really felt--I’m a senior right now so I really felt like that wasn’t going to happen anymore, which I had kind of given up on the idea of studying abroad per say during school. But it was really cool that I was able to be involved in this class this course and have now that opportunity. I submitted my paperwork about a month and a half ago, maybe two months. And unfortunately I have not heard back from immigration yet, which is definitely making me stressful [Laughter]. Because without the permit I can’t leave the country, and our break is really close to this date. And I’ve called and essentially all they say is you just have to wait, like you just have to wait and wait, and I’m just like I’m running out of time like I really want to know. So it’s been really frustrating I think navigating that, because it’s just money that’s being invested and time is going, and I still don’t have an answer. And essentially the deadline that they have to respond to my request is March eight, and I think we’re supposed to leave March eleventh. So if I don’t hear back by the deadline that they have, I really don’t know what I’m supposed to do within those days. So that’s definitely something that’s adding some stress into my life right, because it’s just like I said so much uncertainty.
FR: That’s a wow--that’s a tough situation. So as a whole, what emotions would you say that you associate with DACA? Does it make you--like if you hear that, do you feel--what do you feel? Was the first thing that comes to your mind the stress? Or maybe the relief that you can drive? Or like maybe a mixture of both [Laughter]? What you would you say? How would you describe it?
VLM: I think I definitely have a love-hate relationship. I think of all the benefits that I’ve had now. And I’m very thankful--like I’m very thankful for those. Now also I’ve mentioned like I’ve realized my life would be very different and my opportunities would be very different if I didn’t have DACA. [00:24:15] But I think there’s also a lot of moments where I have been frustrated because I feel--I feel this is like the government putting a Band-Aid on a bigger issue instead of actually finding a solution for the issue if that makes any sense. I--like I said I think the DREAMer movement, we were trying to push for a change, like for a real change. And even though I understand the politics, there’s tons of politics behind it, but it was just kind of like let me throw this at you so you can be quiet and calm down and say that we gave you something. So I think I get hose feelings as well. So even though I realize how much it has benefited me, I also feel like it’s not enough, and I don’t want to settle at a point that I’m just thinking about the good things about it, and thinking of like oh I’m so lucky and I’m so--like I’m so glad that the government did this for us, because at the same time--I don’t know--people may not agree, but I feel like I also deserve--like I know when I entered this country it was not through a legal means, but it wasn’t my decision. And I think that just is like other even citizens I don’t they would be punished--the children would not be punished for something their parents did. Like if a parent goes and kills someone, you’re not going to put their children in jail. And I feel like a lot of times that’s how they do to us, because I came in when I was nine years old. I couldn’t tell my mom no mom I’m not going with you. You go to the United States with my dad, like what am I going to do? I’m going to go with my mom because I wanted to see my dad. So I just feel like sometimes I’m punished, and a lot of us are punished for something that we didn’t choose. And people ask me like where are you from? Or like where is home for you? I think Durham, North Carolina! I don’t think Mexico. So it just doesn’t make sense to me. And I think sometimes DACA--like I’m grateful for it but I don’t want to settle. In my license for example--[00:26:28] on the license there’s a line that says no legal status in red letters. And every time that I give it, whether this is like I’m going out with my friends and they ask me for my I.D.--when I give it to people, I always get that feeling of like what are they going to think? Or like, what is going through their head right now? They’re probably doubt--like wondering why does it have those red letters. And they’re probably not going to ask me, but that’s something that they’re thinking, and it makes me very self-conscious. And I think like you know, most people probably don’t have to worry about that. But that’s real, when I go to someone and give them my I.D. it makes me anxious because I’m just like I don’t know. Maybe they’re going to be like oh that’s fake. Why does have those letters--? I don’t know. But I think yeah, so I have mixed emotions about it. I think it could be better [Laughter].
FR: That was a great answer. So I guess I’ll--this might be our last question but--so you know, we are in the midst of a presidential campaign for this country, and--[00:27:37] some of the candidates just outright stated that they--if they’re elected president, day one, they will get rid of the program. How would that affect you? What happens if it just goes away?
VLM: You know that’s something I wonder. I think for example, like I wonder with like with my car, my dad’s car. What’s going to happen there? Will they take the license plates because I don’t have a license? Or maybe if I have to renew or like I can’t do that anymore? I think that’s the first thing that comes to my mind, and then also for me for example I have a job offer for after graduation, but it’s because of DACA. So if I don’t have DACA then I don’t have a job, which is definitely--I don’t know--it’s frustrating because there’s so much uncertainty like how am I going to plan for that [Laughter]? Because I don’t know. And then I think internally I also think of--if they take away the program, what is immigration going to do with all of those names and all of those addresses and all of that people? I think I would definitely live in fear of me and my family of one day them knocking the door. And, like how can you deny if they have any paperwork? Like I’m stating that I don’t--I’m not--I don’t have any legal status, you know? So yeah it would definitely be very scary, it would be very scary if that was the case.
FR: Yeah. So would you say that you think--do you think about the future a lot? Or do you find yourself--do you find yourself stressing out about all of those things? Or do you feel like you’re able to go day to day and just not--and are you able--how much do you think about the future and that kind of thing?
VLM: I think I’ve almost this mechanism of like I’m just going to ignore it for now, because if I think about it too much, it really stresses me out. It really makes me almost anxious about it. I’m really hopeful that this country would not want the leadership of individuals that have so much hate and--. It has blown my mind to see how many people support some ideas. Like I’m just blown away at how far some of those candidates have made it. I mean it’s scary because I’m like people supported that [Laughter]. But yeah I think I just try to avoid to think about it now. Obviously I follow, try to follow the news and see how things are going, but I’m like I’m going to try not to worry about it. I think also--I also think of the people and the power that there is within people. And I think if something like that was to go away, I think there would be major movement in the country and people would push. And so I think that also just keeps me--keeps me want to go on--like you know it’s ok it’s going to be fine. Like worst comes to worst we’re going to make things happen. So I think I see hope there [Laughter].
FR: That’s awesome. Do you have anything else that you want to add?
VLM: No, I think we’re good. [Laughter]
FR: Awesome. Alright, well thanks so much for doing this interview.
VLM: No problem, thank you.
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
R-0857 -- Martínez, Vianey Lemus.
Description
An account of the resource
Vianey Lemus Martinez is a fourth year undergraduate at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill studying Spanish. She grew up in Tulancingo, Hidalgo in Mexico until age nine when she and her family moved to Durham, North Carolina where they have lived ever since. Lemus Martinez was hesitant to apply for a legal status under the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program that began in 2012. However, after her father, a construction worker, was in a car accident that left him car-less, Lemus Martinez applied for the status and obtained a driver’s license, allowing her family to get a car. With DACA, Lemus Martinez has enjoyed benefits of driving and expanded employment opportunities. She hopes to travel abroad to Mexico as part of an educational experience. Nevertheless, she feels that DACA is only a short-term Band-Aid solution to larger immigration issues in the U.S. The uncertain future often leaves Lemus Martinez feeling anxious, but she finds solace in the power of the people to push through the challenges that may come.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
26 February 2016
Format
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R0857_Audio.mp3
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/27100">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/ee35c402e6adb6b061406cfedde260b6.mp3
6a44bc44408bbdbd668fb639b13ba450
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/d3f3170a7f234598f30391d1b0ff825d.pdf
f5e361ecdcb624499914f9197cd3ebae
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0811
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
18 March 2015
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Islas, Alma.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Students
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1992
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Mexico City -- Mexico
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Chapel Hill -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-99.1275 19.4283333),1992,1;POINT(-80.89229569999998 35.08320139999999),1998,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Schliewe, Kayla.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Alma Islas discusses her experience coming to North Carolina from Mexico City at the age of six. She discusses her family’s work in Mexico and the motives behind migrating to the United States. She speaks about the identity struggle she felt since arriving and her conflicts about being Mexican on paper, but feeling more American in practice. She talks about her long-term goals and then the goals of her father and three siblings. She works two part-time jobs to help finance her education, and also works with SUIE (Students United for Immigrant Equality), an on-campus organization. Alma highlights the importance education has had in her life. She discusses the private education system in Mexico and mentioned that language was often a barrier for her growing up. She discusses DACA, and how that affects her both in a legal sense and emotionally. She discusses her life as an undocumented student and talks about the few options she has towards filing for citizenship.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Alma Islas by Kayla Schliewe, 18 March 2015, R-0811, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/26851
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Higher Education; Identity; Citizenship and immigration; Language and communication; DREAMers and DACA
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Kayla Schliewe: Ok this is Kayla Schliewe interviewing Alma Islas on Wednesday March 18th at 9:07am. We are conducting the interview in the Undergraduate Library on the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill campus.
Alma could you begin by telling me a little bit about yourself, such as where you’re from and how you got to Chapel Hill?
Alma Islas: Well, like you said, my name is Alma Islas and I am from Mexico City. I arrived to North Carolina when I was six years old, and I lived in Pineville North Carolina ever since. I went to Wayne Community College shortly after graduating High School. After receiving my Associates degree, I was accepted to the University of North Carolina. However, I had to take a year off due to the constraints of not having enough aid...financial aid. And then here I am, a year later, after taking a year off. I am a junior here, a Public Policy Major and Entrepreneurship Minor.
KS: What made your family come here when you were age six?
AI: When I was age six, my family actually had, they had a very steady job. Both my parents worked for a bus company in Mexico City. It was a thriving company and then unfortunately, due to corruption in Mexico, the president, like the government, found out how good the company was doing and decided to take over. Then a lot of corruption and things started happening. My father was a supervisor in the company, and he noticed a lot of things were not legal and corrupt. He basically started ri—not riots, but strikes with more of his colleges and decided to stand up to the government. That of course went wrong, and my dad ended up without having a job. So he decided to come to America for a year to just get some money, and then bring it back home and still live in Mexico. But after being here for a year, he realized that getting money was a whole lot easier here than in Mexico
KS: Mhmm
AI: So he decided to send for us and bring us over to North Carolina.
KS: Do you remember anything from living in Mexico City?
AI: I remember very little. Unfortunately, I have very little memories
KS: Yeah
AI: But I do have a lot with my family, more than anything.
KS: Mhmm. We were just talking about this earlier, but how do you identify yourself. Like, on paper? Yeah.
AI: You know, on paper I always tend to say I am Mexican. Although I do have a deep appreciation for my culture, I honestly don’t feel like a Mexican. I feel like I am just as American as anyone else who was born and raised here. Although I wasn’t born here, six years, that are my first few 6 years of my life, I was not engaged at all in the American way. I feel like I have been…. I have been doing, practicing, the American things. I definitely feel American.
KS: Right. Have your Mexican roots provided any barriers or obstacles so far?
AI: I would say so. Like the first obstacles that I had to encounter were when I started 1st grade as a six year old. I did go to a…I went to private school in Mexico, so I did know a little bit of English. But just to give you a quick example of the way they taught us there: “January,” that’s how you say it correct? In Mexico, they would teach us “January”. (han-war-ee). I was already kind of a little disadvantaged because of the teachers. They did know English, but it wasn’t as fluently as you would use it here in America. So one of my first obstacles was the language. Then, all growing up I was always seen as the minority. I was always seen as somewhat of an outsider, but that’s not how I felt. That was kind of… still is a little bit of a--I wouldn’t call it per say a struggle, it’s just kind of been a little bit of a maybe… Yes, like a small obstacle. Obstacles and struggles are the same thing. I am feeling like I am an outsider, or people make me feel like I am an outsider, but me not feeling that way. That’s been the hardest thing.
KS: Mhmm. So its like how you perceive yourself versus how like society perceives you.
AI: That’s correct.
KS: So what are you long-term goals, like dreams and ambitions? That could be career, family, anything.
AI: Well, my long-term goals are to work in education, particularly policy making. I, being a first generation student and an immigrant, have developed a very strong passion for seeking higher education. Unfortunately I wasn’t, I didn’t have anyone to look up to help me, you know. “What do you do to go to college?” “What’s the next step?” “How do you do this?” “How do you do that and the other?” I realized that there’s a strong demand in helping other first generation students like myself-or not even that. Maybe could be also having really good income, but your parents just aren’t there for you. Just helping anyone in general to seek a higher education is where my true passion lies.
KS: Mhmm. Are these different dreams or goals than your parents, did they have any interest in education,
AI: Absolutely. That’s actually one of the primary reasons why my dad sent over for us. He wanted us to have like a steady life and have a really good education. Which is why in Mexico, we went to a private school. He has always valued education. He unfortunately, his dad died when he was ten years old. He had…he really…his dream was to become a doctor. But having seven other siblings, he just ended up not going to school and going to job field. That’s why my dad really values education. He always harped on us how to do well in school, and supported us all the way through.
KS: What would you… or how would you define “the American Dream?”
We hear all the time, you know. Throw it around, but what does it actually mean to you?
AI: That--I’ve been asked that question quite a few times and it’s always a difficult answer. Because in my eyes, the American dream is an opportunity for you to be better--a better life. So basic—it depends… I feel like it varies from person to person. But in my particular experience, the American Dream, to me, is to be able to come from a country where there is corruption to be able to have a future. Whatever it is that I want to do. For me, the future is education and hopefully to be a role model for someone.
KS: This is going to be easy! How has education played a role in your attempts to obtaining your degree?
AI: I think education is not just a matter of getting education in school. I think you can be educated from the workforce or anything that you allow yourself to learn from. I would say that education has played an enormous part in me getting my degree because it has allowed me to learn a diversified number of things. From teachers, from other students, and just basically soaking up as much information and as many things as I can to be successful. And learn from others mistakes, as well as my own.
KS: What else besides taking courses here at the University do you get involved in?
AI: I’m involved in SUIE (Students United for Immigrant Equality). I have two other part time jobs, so that’s where most of my time goes. Between SUIE and my two other jobs. As of now, that’s the only thing I would say I am a part of.
KS: And what do you do with SUIE, and if you would like to say, what are your part-time jobs? Are they related?
AI: SUIE, we do a lot. We have been working on events. Currently, we are working on Immigration Awareness Week. We have also gone out to a moral march. Those are the kinds of events that SUIE has been involved with, and I try to participate in as many things as SUIE has going on. My part time jobs: the first one is working at the Franklin Hotel. I am a server in the restaurant for the breakfast service, and my second part time job is being a babysitter for a little girl around here in Chapel Hill.
KS: Mhmm. Switching topics a little bit. I’m interested in finding out more about how the DREAM act or Obama’s deferred actions can play affect on helping people obtain their dreams or goals. So have either of these helped you out? Or are they unrelated?
AI: Personally, I am an undocumented student. Having undocumented status has been heavy on me receiving my education. As soon as I graduated High School, I panicked a little and thought that I was not going to be able to go to school because at the time the laws were a little vague. They weren’t sure whether to allow undocumented students into the university system, or even in the community college system. Fortunately, I was able to enroll in community college. But let’s say that I wasn’t able to, due to my status. I would say that it would’ve been very hard for me. Devastating. Because it means I would have had to enter the work force and suppressed an opportunity for me to excel in life. I think for Obama to, or for the next president, to have a reform. If a DREAM act came true, would mean a lot, and would actually put a lot of kids into a better education. Which can lead to better work life and more money for the economy
KS: Mhmm. Is that why you work two jobs? Is there financial stress…
AI: Yes
KS: …for you to come to the university?
AI: One of the things about the American Dream that I mentioned before: Yes, a lot of people have conceptions, like myself, that you can come here and be who you want to be. But unfortunately, in America, the way of life is if you don’t have money, or you unfortunately don’t have documented status, you are very limited to what you can do. The American Dream per say, gets crutched a lot, or comes with many obstacles for you to obtain when you a documented status.
KS: Do your parents have undocumented status as well
AI: No
KS: Oh okay, I was going to see if that has…or actually.. Has even their identity provided any obstacles for them as well? Even though they have documentation-has just their identity played a part?
AI: Can you explain that question a little? I don’t think I am understanding it.
KS: Sure! That’s fine. I wanted, because obviously, or it’s more obvious, that sometimes without documentation there are limitations: such as sources for funding. But is just having a Hispanic or Mexican Identity, has that held your parents back at all? Or do you think that America has kind of come past that a little bit?
AI: I think maybe, in some ways, it has been somewhat of a setback for them just because their English. They do speak English, but they have a thick accent. However, sometimes people just look at it, “oh you don’t speak English,” and they kind of look at them a little different or with a less regard. I think both of them show that they are, you know, adequate people for the job or for whatever they’re setting themselves up for. I would say yes, that them being Mexican and having a thick accent has set them back a little. I would definitely say that America has not surpassed the fact that someone is a different color, then they can do just the same thing as anyone else, just because of that.
KS: The language barrier?
AI: Mhmm.
KS: And what do your parents do here? Your dad was the supervisor back in Mexico City. So does…
AI: He works in construction and my mother works at a McDonalds restaurant.
KS: Mhmm ok. Does…do you have any siblings or others that go to school as well/ Do they have the same dreams and goals as you?
AI: I have three other siblings. I have one, the youngest one she was born here. She hopes to be a teacher. She is only a freshman, so perhaps that will change. She is still young. If not, then good for her. That’s awesome. My other sister, she wants to be a nurse. She is also undocumented like myself, and then my older brother he wants to be a nutritionist
KS: Wow.
AI: He is going to school right now at Wayne Community College
KS: Awesome! So does he have plans to come to the University?
AI: Yes, he is actually planning on transferring to ECU in the fall.
KS: Mhmm, that’s nice. What would make the transition into academia easier for undocumented? What would be the—if we could just fix one problem, what would it be?
AI: Quite frankly, it would be great for us to just be granted document status. But I do see, because of the political arena right now, it’s probably not a possibility. If we could just fix a lesser thing than that, I would just say for there to be an executive order or just a law that would allow undocumented student to receive their education and be able to rehearse that education by receiving a job afterwards.
KS: If you were still in Mexico City, how do you think your life would be?
AI: I really think its kind of hard for me to imagine life in Mexico because I know very little about it. I don’t… the only things I do know is from what I hear from my relatives back home. I like to make the best of every situation in any setting I am in. I think I would probably still be in school, but I think it would definitely be a whole lot harder for me to have put myself through school just because in Mexico, it’s a whole lot more expensive to be in school. It’s not kind of an equal opportunity as much as it is here in America in order for you to receive that. And I say equal opportunity, but then at the same time its not really equal, because a lot of undocumented students aren’t getting that equality here.
KS: Do you ever plan to go back maybe and visit your family? Or you maintain communication with them?
AI: Oh, we maintain very good communication. However, I do. I hope to be able to. It all just depends if I get permission from immigration, and all that good stuff. If I would get permission, I would definitely hop on a plane and go as soon as possible.
KS: And what’s the process of getting permission? What does that entail?
AI: Well currently, because I fall under DACA (Deferred action for Childhood Arrivals), I can file for advanced parole, which would give me permission to go to Mexico. But it has to…its only for a few number of reasons. One of them would be if a relative back home is sick and has an illness. Then, they could probably give me permission to do that. Another way that I can think of going to Mexico from advanced parole is if I have a job and they send me over there, or if I do a study abroad experience in Mexico.
KS: The DACA, that if I understand this, that’s not citizen. So, is there a pathway for citizenship coming for you along the way, do you think?
AI: I don’t necessarily see one. I know I probably have to do more research. I have done a fair amount of research and there’s nothing out there for me particularly, unless I marry an American citizen. But of course, I won’t force myself to fall in love with a citizen. But if that does happen, that’s great because I could get my citizenship and legal status that way. But as the way the law stands right now, there’s just no path for me.
KS: So what is that like? It’s something I don’t understand or experience, but what does that feel like to be an undocumented and knowing that you might be that way for a couple years?
AI: The most fearful thing is that I could remain this status for the rest of my life, which is kind of scary. Being undocumented, like I said, I don’t think that I am undocumented everyday. So I feel, like I said before, like I’m an American--just as my roommates that were born here in the US. But every once in a while, for example when considering a job, I have to think, “Well, I only have permission to work for X amount of time because of Obama’s deferred action. Once that runs out, what am I going to do? It is a scary feeling when I have to think about things like that. Or even just having a steady life here. I have been very afraid that I would have to go back to Mexico and exercise my degree there. That is probably what I think about the most. Defining myself as an undocumented person in America is scary because there’s a lot of uncertainty about my future, and not knowing necessarily what will happen and what I will be able to do.
(PAUSE). BEGIN FOLLOW-UP INTERVIEW.
KS: Alright, this is Kayla Schliewe doing a follow-up interview with Alma Islas on Monday, March 30th at 4:34 p.m in the Undergraduate Library in the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill’s campus. I’m just going to get started. Did you parents need any skills trainings or higher education to get the supervisor positions that they had in Mexico City?
AI: In Mexico City, no they did not. My mother finished high school and she was a secretary for where she worked, in the bus company. My father just finished middle school, so yes, no they did not receive any. Maybe they did need some sort of formal training, but none that they have told me about. There’s none that they’ve told me about, any educational…
KS: Wow. Middle School, that’s impressive. (Laughter). So in Mexico, if you don’t have educational background, for upward mobility, how do you get a better standard of living in Mexico? If you don’t need education, what do you do?
AI: Well, this also relates back, for my parents, this relates back to quite a few years back down the road. But now, according to when I talk to my family and my relatives, they tell me that you do have to have education in order to have a decent job. But when going to school is so much more expensive there, it can be very hard to get a decent job. Especially in a city like Mexico City where there’s a lot of people that live there. You’re just competing for about anything you can get.
KS: Wow. I wanted to know, are the qualifications from US and from Mexico, are they different? Is a manager in Mexico different than a manager in the US? Do you know what I mean? Are they equal?
AI: Honestly, I don’t think I can really answer the question super good, just because I was never really raised in Mexico. I don’t exactly know how one views a manager there versus how one views a manager here. Once again, just what I hear from relatives, I know that people with higher authority here in the US are definitely more respected than in Mexico. Because unfortunately, due to corruption and all that, that aspect gets a little swallowed. The people in higher authority don’t always necessarily get the respect they should.
KS: Mhmm. How many years has your dad been in construction here? Did he just start that right when he came?
AI: No, he started working at a nursery when he first got here. He worked there for maybe five or six years. He wasn’t getting paid overtime, and he was being treated not with—fairly. So he quit that and started working in… he had a heating and air conditioning job for a couple of years. Then, he has been working the rest of that time, so seven plus years perhaps, in construction.
KS: Mhmm. Okay. How does he like it so far? Do you think he is going to change jobs again, do you think?
AI: No, I definitely think this is where he will stay. His boss really treats him fairly and they really like my father and his work. My father, he really enjoys doing it, even before he started working construction, he’s always built things for the house and everything. He really enjoys it, so I think that’s where he is going to be at.
KS: Cool. Why do you think that he went to the nursery, and to all these other jobs when he was a supervisor at this bussing company? Why do you think he changed careers so dramatically? Why didn’t he find something in the US that was bus—like, there’s bussing in Raleigh and around the area.
AI: Well, for sure, one thing that I do know is that a degree there or the qualifications in Mexico do not necessarily translate to the same thing in the United States. The primary reason he just went to the nursery job was because when he got here, my mother had a relative. That’s where my dad, he lived with them. They had a job there and they just helped him get a job within that nursery company. However, he didn’t speak the language, so it would have been kind of difficult for him to start at a manager position. Especially because in the United States, they do require an education level; and, he wouldn’t have met that level of requirement.
KS: Okay. Did he—so it was your aunt at the nursery? Or was it a friend at the nursery?
AI: Oh, it was my mother’s cousin.
KS: So did he have the job with her before he even left Mexico City? He came to North Carolina with that job?
AI: He also… When my dad came here he did already have that job lined up for him. My mother’s relatives had already asked around to see if they could have a position for my dad, and they said yes. Then, my dad travelled here, knowing that he would have a job lined up.
KS: How did he travel?
AI: He came here by car.
KS: Just drove through?
AI: Mhmm.
KS: How long was he working with your mom’s family before he brought back for you and your mom and your siblings.
AI: Mhmm. So, his original plan was not to make a livelihood here. He was just supposed to come here and get a little bit of money while things in Mexico City were hopefully going to get better. He realized that getting money here was a bit easier than in Mexico and was a whole lot more—maybe not a whole lot more. Okay, maybe I am speaking too boldly. He figured it was a lot easier to have that lifestyle here, especially because we lived in the country versus the city life. He thought it would be a better place to raise us, so after almost a year, he called my mother and told her: “Hey, I really want you guys to come here and live with me. I think this would be a better change for all of us.”
KS: Does your mom ever talk about that year apart at all? You were only six though. I don’t know. The year that your father was in the US, and you and your mother was back home, do you have any memories about that or stories?
AI: I don’t really remember quite a lot. I only do remember when my dad left. He didn’t say good-bye to me. He just kind of left one day and then the next I was like “Where’s dad?” Then they finally broke it down to me, “he will be back, and he’s just off for a good…” I don’t even remember exactly what they said he was off doing. Yeah, I remember that. He would constantly call us and keep in touch with us. I do remember when he called and they told us that I was going to go see my dad. To me, it didn’t really… I wasn’t even questioning it. I just knew I was going to go back and see my dad, because me and my dad were always close as a child. We still are. I was just super excited to be reunited with my dad again. I didn’t really question the motives or…
KS: What was happening.
AI: Mhmm.
KS: (Laughing). I like that. So, I guess it’s sort of the same thing for your mom. I wanted to ask why she did that change from supervisor position to now she is in the fast food industry. What has her work journey been like here?
AI: Mhmm. My mom just went from being, I wouldn’t say like an ordinary secretary, but she was just a secretary in Mexico to being in the fast food industry in American for the same reasons as my father. She didn’t know the language, and that was just the entry-level job that she could get here. The qualifications that she had in order to be a secretary did not translate here in America. She had to take what available positions were open. That is what was open at the time and she has been working at McDonalds ever since.
KS: Yeah. Does she like it?
AI: I wouldn’t say that she likes it. I think even she would say that she doesn’t like it, but it is what she can work. It is the job availability that she has based on her status. She definitely is qualified to do more than just being a McDonalds employee.
KS: Right.
AI: But, because of her status, she cant go any further. She was also manager at one point, but she had to step down due to her status.
KS: I thought that your parents had status in the US? Both of your parents don’t have…
AI: No, they don’t have anything.
KS: Oh wow, I think I misunderstood that in the last interview. Well, that leads into my next question. Since coming to the US, have your parents received any higher education or skills training? In order for your mom to potentially have a higher paying job or a better job, she could go and possibly try for an associate’s degree or something.
AI: Mhmm.
KS: Have any of those attempts been made?
AI: My dad has received I guess formal training for his job. My mother has receiving training to become a manager at McDonalds, which she was. My dad was a manager at—he was an assistant manager at McDonalds. He also worked at McDonalds for a number of years. They have not made an attempt to pursue higher education just because they haven’t had the time to dedicate to school and work, based on them raising four children.
KS: Right.
AI: They didn’t necessarily, I guess, see that as an opportunity for them. They preferred for them to work as hard as they can for us to have an educational opportunity.
KS: Wow. I like that. So busy with work, and busy with kids, how would you describe your family’s social presence in the community that they live?
AI: Well, I think that both my parents, more so my dad, is more involved in the community. They partake in the community, when I started in the community college I got them a little more involved. They started taking ESL classes. And they go to events at the community college. My dad, he had a soccer team, when I was in High School, for the Hispanic League nearby. Then, he started another soccer team for Elementary School when my little cousins were there. So, he’s been involved in the community on and off, of course. Whenever he feels like he has to take on more hours at work, he lays off of the community involvement. My mother, just because of her personality, is a shy person. She is not as involved as my dad is. But, she does go to every event that my dad goes to for support.
KS: Aw.
AI: She’s just the quiet one, but is very supporting.
KS: Okay. (Laughter). So how is your family life at home? So what is the relationship like and how does the Islas family work?
AI: Mhmm. I would say that my family is just very diverse. Because my mother is the shy one out of the whole family, and my little sister takes on after her. I have always been a little bit outspoken and outgoing, the same for my dad and another one of my sisters. So, we kind of have a little mixture. Then we have my brother that’s in between; he doesn’t talk too much but he doesn’t talk too little.
KS: Is he the middle child?
AI: No, he is the oldest child.
KS: Oh! (Laughter).
AI: I wouldn’t definitely say that we have a good dynamic in the Islas household. We all get along great. Of course, like any other family, every now and then we have our dilemmas. I think that we are very supportive of each other, and that’s one of the things that I definitely hold strong for my culture. We are very family-oriented.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: If we ever have an issue, we all get together and try to be there for each other.
KS: That’s good. This is… I’m going to start talking about some stereotypes, or maybe I am going to ask about some. I am trying to think… Has your family ever kind of taught you like gender roles, or has that been? Because that’s kind of like a stereotype up against a Hispanic culture is that men do one thing and women do another. Have you seen that in your family?
AI: Not very much. Because my parents were raised in a city, they were a bit more progressive than some of the rest of the Mexicans that were a little more country, I guess you could say. My mother, she has always believed in equality and equality of both sexes. My mom, she just doesn’t let my sisters do the cooking or the dishes. She is always showing my brother how to do things around the house, as well. So, I have never really seen a bias or sexualism. My father, he’s always taught—I know how to fix my car, I know how to do oil changes, because my father has always believed in that, too. You know, women and men should have equal rights.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: So I definitely don’t think I have seen sexist roles being instilled in my family. Like I said, I think that goes back because my parents were raised in the city and had a little bit more progressive ideas, I would say.
KS: Mhmm. And what, to you, because I don’t know the answer, but what is the difference between Hispanic and Latino?
KS: You know, that’s a … I don’t really know how to—I don’t know the exact differences. When you say Hispanic, to me, I think of generally just Mexico and Central America. Now, once we start talking about Southern…South America, I probably feel like I would throw in the Latino in there. Because, to me, Hispanic is people that speak Spanish and sometimes Brazilians, you can correct me if I am wrong. You know, I am not an expert.
KS: Sure.
AI: But, I feel like sometimes they get lumped in. And Latinos, just because they have somewhat of a Latin culture, but some of them don’t speak Spanish. To me, I feel like Hispanics is someone who speaks Spanish and is someone who is more from Central America and North America, being Mexico.
KS: Does that… We were talking about identity last time, and did you identify as a Mexican or American? You feel American, but you are a Mexican, and now you’ve got these words: Hispanic and Latina to throw in there. How does that affect?
AI: Well, it definitely does affect me, because like I said, I don’t even necessarily now the full definition of Hispanic and Latina. I consider myself Hispanic, and I consider myself that just because of my own personal definition of what Hispanic means. Because I was born in Mexico and both parents were born there.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: Am I answering your question?
KS: No, yeah! It’s a very confusing question, and that’s what I think I am getting at. What do you call yourself, when you have all these words thrown at you all the time?
AI: That is true.
KS: Are you Hispanic, and Latina, and Mexican, but you can feel American?
AI: I usually, just when I introduce myself, I say that I was born in Mexico, but raised in North Carolina. I feel like I am definitely a mix of cultures, you know. With Hispanic heritage and American Heritage, because to me, all I really know is America. I love fried chicken just as much as any one else does around here! (Laughter).
KS: Go, Tar Heels! (Laughter). Oh, that’s a good lead to my next question. Do you, and your family, or just you, embrace Hispanic traditions here in North Carolina?
AI: Yes, we definitely do. When we first, from what I can remember, when we first arrived here, we were new to a lot of the holidays and to a lot of the things that Americans did. As we became—as we learned a little bit more, because obviously, I was in school so they taught us a little bit more about the holidays. My parents always wanted to be involved, Such as Martin Luther Kind Jr. Day. My parents were always trying to be involved, like, “Hey, what does this mean? What can we do for this day?” For Fourth of July, we go out and do things. So, we always try to participate in a community event or the holidays, for the American Holidays.
KS: Right. What’s your favorite American Holiday or cultural thing?
AI: My favorite American holiday would definitely be Thanksgiving.
KS: Yes!
AI: (Laughing). It really does touch me every single year. Being thankful, and not just that day to be thankful, but I think coming from a Hispanic background, we are very family-oriented. We like to thank everyday for what we have. You know, for as little as we do have, we thank God for it. So, I think a specific day dedicated to being thankful for what you have, I think it’s great. My family has always participated in that holiday, and I think that’s definitely my favorite.
KS: That’s nice. What about…It seems like you and your family have pretty much adopted the American life, but is there any part of the Hispanic culture you just got to keep?
AI: Oh, absolutely! That’s one of the things I do like about my family, and that’s why I say that I feel like I am American--Mexican-American. We also, at home, just about every—all Hispanic holidays--Mexican holidays, we try to celebrate. My parents always try to teach us about it. Like Cinco de Mayo, I was, at first, confused and thinking, “Hey, I know that’s not our independence day, but why do people call it that?”
Ks: Mhmm.
AI: So, my parents take every opportunity they can to teach us and to tell us, “You now what, that’s not what it is.” Or just any random holiday that’s celebrated in Mexico, but not here, they’ll say, ”Hey, you know today’s X Day and this is how it’s celebrated and this is what you should know about it.” My parents always try to keep our roots—bring us back to our roots and tell us that it is always important to remember our culture.
KS: Mhmm. Well, because you speak Spanish at home, correct?
AI: Mhmm.
KS: Do you embrace like the food and the culture and the music?
AI: Yes.
KS: Yeah, all of it?
AI: Absolutely.
KS: What’s your favorite part about that?
AI: Well, absolutely, the food! (Laughing). The food is my favorite. We always, like I said, we do go to outings; we do go to celebrations like quinceñeras, and celebrations like that. We always dance, and my dad’s always been a really outgoing guy and he teaches us how to dance salsa and merengue. So, I know a little bit about just about every dance because of him. He always tries to embrace out culture, and also, he is really open to the American culture. We go out with our American friends and do a little line dancing, do a little, you know! (Laughing).
KS: Cha-cha slide! (Laughing).
AI: We definitely do. He’s not afraid to soak in a difference in cultures.
KS: I like that, too. (Papers rustling). How have—well Ill go back to the stereotypes. Have you had to personally battle any stereotypes that exist between the two cultures?
AI: Yes. Well… Being of a tanner skin color and I have always randomly… When I used to work at McDonalds or Cookout, or any job that I particularly had, I always, whenever I am serving someone, they typically think that I don’t speak English. Or they think that my English is not very good. It’s been kind of hard to overcome that stereotype. Or it was. I think I finally overcame it. Whenever I get a little stare, and people slow down their words like I don’t understand, it kind of makes me feel a little upset. Because I am like, “Hey, I speak English.”
KS: Right.
AI: I think that’s something that has not just impacted myself, but my whole family, because we get stereotypes like that. Or, people think that I don’t go to a College. I‘ve gotten that, too. People just think, “Oh, you work at Cookout or McDonalds, you’re just--that’s what you do for a living?” No. I am a student.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: So, those types of stereotypes have been a little…they can make you feel bad every now and then.
KS: I’m sure.
AI: But, I think I’ve gotten to a point where I’ve overcame those, whenever I get stereotyped that way. I think I don’t really get bothered anymore. I take it as ignorance on the other person who’s stereotyping me that way.
KS: Sure. But now, you’re working at the Franklin Hotel and you’re also a babysitter, a nanny?
AI: Mhmm.
KS: So when do you find time? So you go to the Franklin Hotel in the morning… What does your day look like? I am amazed you fit so much!
AI: (Laughter). So I guess my daily routines would be every Monday and Wednesday, I go to school and then right after that I go take care of a little girl. Then, I come back to school around 6:00, have dinner and then go home and do some studying and get some sleep because on Tuesdays and Thursdays, I work anywhere from 5:00 to 6:00 in the morning. Then, I get off work at 10:45 or 10:30, and then head straight to class from 11:00 to 4:45. I use my free time, as I so like to call it…. (Laughter). …to study or catch up on homework or do whatever it is that I need to do at that time.
KS: Right.
AI: On Thursdays, that’s my longer days, because right as soon as I get out of class, I am involved with SUIE (Students United for Immigrant Equality). I attend their weekly meetings. Yeah. On Fridays I do the similar: work in the morning again, and then I go to school, and then go babysit. My weekend is working again and just catching up with schoolwork.
KS: You have a really good work ethic, I think. Because it gets hard when you have papers and classes and you just keep working. I think you have a really strong sense of work ethic. (Laughter). Are there…. The service industry, okay, so that gets generalized as a Hispanic job, so I just want to know, In the Franklin Hotel, are there other Hispanics that you work with? Or is there a great variety? What does that work dynamic look like?
AI: Honestly, it’s mostly Hispanics. There’s a few that are not Hispanic.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: But for the most part, its just Mexicans and Guatemalans, I think that’s all we have in the Franklin Hotel. I have worked a lot in the service industry, and you see basically the majority Hispanics, especially in the kitchens. For example, when I worked at the Governor’s Club--that’s a different story actually. That’s a different story. You did have a good dynamic there, just because you did have to have professional chefs. And not to say that Hispanics don’t take the time to do so, but sometimes a lot of the Hispanics that do come here as immigrants, a good chunk of them are undocumented, so it’s a little harder to get these certificates and get the schooling behind. Whenever you have a job such as the Governor’s Club that requires these certificates and what not, you don’t see a lot of Hispanics in this particular field. It’s just because there’s more requirements to there.
KS: Who works in those jobs?
AI: Typically for the certification jobs, you get a good variety. Mostly Americans are working in those positions where you have to have some sorts of certificates or degrees to work in.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: And that is what I have seen, but however in the service industry jobs like Cookout and McDonalds that I have worked at, you see the majority, I would say at least about 95% …
KS: Wow.
AI: … of the people are Hispanics working in the kitchens. In the front of the house, you typically get the Americans that are there. I also think too, it’s because of the language. Just people feel more comfortable. Although they can speak English, they feel a little bit more comfortable not being at the front of the house.
KS: Right.
AI: Also, it’s like everyone in the back with you it’s like a community, a family.
AI: That’s true.
KS: You can have like a work family. So when you have work, and you have new jobs, is status something that is talked about? Or is that something that is not talked about? Like if you got a new job, and you see the kitchen is full of people form Mexico or people from Guatemala, do you just say, “Hey, I’m from Mexico too. Are you a citizen?” How does that go?
AI: Uh huh. Typically, Hispanics are definitely more open. Not that you assume that you’re undocumented just because yore another Hispanic…
KS: Sure.
AI: …but, you feel more comfortable. You have a sense of I’m not going to be judged, or I can be free and tell you if I am undocumented, if I choose to.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: However, because I’ve worked both. I’ve worked in the kitchen and in the front of the house, and registers and drive-thru. I don’t feel as comfortable telling an American that I am, just because I am afraid of getting stereotyped or any negative repercussions that may come behind me saying that. However, if I am working in the kitchen, I feel much more comfortable telling you, “Yes, I am undocumented. How about you?” But, It’s not something that we all talk about as soon as we meet.
KS: Sure. (Laughter).
AI: You automatically feel like family.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: You feel really liberated, you feel like no judgment. That’s how you feel whenever you work with someone else that’s Hispanic.
KS: Mhmm. It’s because you’re family oriented. It’s in your blood! I love it. Last couple questions. How have your dreams evolved, as you’ve gotten older?
AI: I would say, when I was younger, I sued to think that the step to get to was being a high school graduate. I thought that was going to be where I needed to be. You know, when I was anywhere from middle school and less, I thought that high school was it. My dad didn’t make it to high school graduation and my mom did, but that’s all that she did. I thought that’s where I needed to be. But as I became, started to go into high school and finishing middle school, I realized that there’s more than just high school. There’s college. I wanted that that just as much s anybody else. So I think yes, my goals definitely changed from being a high school graduate to now, obtaining a Masters degree.
KS: That’s your end target? The Masters?
AI: Oh, actually, my end target is a Doctorate, but with what I want to do, not that I don’t need a Doctorate, but I think that I will be well equipped with a Masters. Just because of my status and how much it takes to afford school, I don’t think that a Doctorate will be very feasible, just in the money sense.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: But of course, you know, if I do get another wonderful scholarship like the one I have, I definitely would love to go for it.
KS: Yeah. How have your self-perceptions changed over time?
AI: Can you explain that question a little more?
KS: Sure. A self-perception is like how do you think about yourself. So, when you were young, you probably had this idea, and so how has that grown or changed?
AI: Okay. Whenever I was younger, I do remember thinking I could be anything that I wanted to be.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: And then, right when I was graduating high school, I said, “No, I cant, because I am undocumented.” At some point in my childhood years, I wanted to be in the Medical field.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: Right when I was getting ready to finish high school, I realized that to get into nursing programs or anything allied-health related, you had to have social security. So, automatically, I started realizing that I’m actually limited. Although, I want to be anything that—my mindset said that I can be anything that I wanted to be. On the contrary, I am limited because of the status that I do have. I could be the smartest in whatever specific field I wanted to be, but because of my status, I am limited. That doesn’t mean that it is impossible, but I am limited. SO I think that my self-perception changed a little. I more so oriented myself to what I can do, and excel from that. I think that’s how my self-perception has changed. Doing what I can do, based on my limitations.
KS: Mhmm. Is high school the first time you started noticing those limitations?
AI: Yes.
KS: That’s when it all started.
AI: It really started whenever… Drivers Ed.
KS: Oh right. Right.
AI: Driver’s Ed is whenever I realized, “Oh, I am different.” (Laughter).
KS: I wanted to know, how did you find out about your undocumented status?
AI: I’ve always known that I was undocumented.
KS: Oh, okay.
AI: But it’s not something that I kept being reminded of every day, much like I do now. You know, K-12, because of that Supreme Court Case ruling…
KS: Mhmm.
AI: …anyone can be in anything from K-12. The whole entire time, up to middle school, I would say that I felt like I had equal opportunities. But once I started getting to fourteen and a half, fifteen, having to take Drivers Ed, that’s the first time where,” You’re undocumented? Sorry, hold on.” You can’t do everything as you think you can.
KS: Right.
AI: That was the moment that, slowly but surely, it started building up. It was particularly after 9/11 whenever new laws started, Homeland Security.
KS: Right.
AI: Started chiming in and crating new laws that prevented me from being a regular, normal person.
KS: A regular, normal person? So you felt like you were less of a person?
AI: I definitely…in a sense, Yes.
KS: Yeah.
AI: Because I don’t consider myself a criminal. Unfortunately, under the law, some people see me as a criminal. So I think whenever you put a fifteen or fourteen year old child and say, “You can’t get a Driver’s License,” because under the scope, you are considered as somewhat of a criminal,” that does some things to a person. It kind of makes you feel lesser of a person. I felt like, you know, I was equal, but whenever little things like that occur, it does…it can hurt a little bit.
KS: Mhmm. Wow. Well… Do you ever look back, because now yore older, you’re wise, you’re in school, you’ve been with the system that has kind of pushed you down a little bit—or maybe a lot, do you ever look at your past and ever look at things differently because of your experiences?
AI: Yes, always. Always. Every time I look back, I couldn’t have a license then, but now I have a license.
Ks: Mhmm.
AI: little things like that, I like to look and see where I am. I don’t like to look backwards a lot, just because it can bring back sad feelings or emotional feelings that can just cloud up my judgment moving forward. But I do like to look at what obstacles I have overcome. For example, I thought that I wasn’t going to come here to UNC, just because I didn’t have the money. But, I was fortunate enough to receive a scholarship that is going to put me through my last two years here. So I look at what I have overcame, and not dig in too deep to at the time why I couldn’t do it.
KS: Right.
AI: I just see it as it is possible. So while I do have limitations, I still can do a lot with those limitations that I have.
KS: You’re just always so positive and I think that you’re kind of like a really big inspiration to others. I really appreciate that you’re letting me have your story, and that I can share it to other people because hopefully you can reach others. Maybe with your work with public policy or with SUIE, you can reach others and inspire them, too.
AI: Thank you!
KS: I am out of questions, so again, thank you for your time.
AI: Thank you, I appreciate it!
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Estudiantes
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Alma Islas habla de su experiencia viniendo a Carolina del Norte de la Ciudad de México a los seis años. Ella habla sobre el trabajo de su familia en México y los motivos detrás de la migración a los Estados Unidos. Ella habla sobre la lucha de identidad que se ha sentido desde que llegó y sus conflictos sobre ser mexicana en papel, pero sentirse más americana en práctica. Ella habla de sus metas a largo plazo, y luego sobre los objetivos de su padre y tres hermanos. Ella trabaja dos empleos a tiempo parcial para ayudar a financiar su educación, y también trabaja con SUIE (Students United for Immigrant Equality) una organización en el campus. Alma destaca la importancia que la educación ha tenido en su vida. Ella describe el sistema de educación privado en México y menciona que el idioma fue frecuentemente una barrera durante su crecimiento. Ella discute DACA y cómo la ha afectado tanto en un sentido legal como emocional. Ella habla de su vida como una estudiante indocumentada y habla de las pocas opciones que ella tiene hacia la declaración de la ciudadanía.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Alma Islas por Kayla Schliewe, 18 Marzo 2015, R-0811, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Educación superior; Identidad; Ciudadanía e inmigración; Lenguaje y comunicación; Movimiento de jóvenes 'Soñadores' y Acción Diferida
Es: Transcripción
Kayla Schliewe: Ok this is Kayla Schliewe interviewing Alma Islas on Wednesday March 18th at 9:07am. We are conducting the interview in the Undergraduate Library on the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill campus.
Alma could you begin by telling me a little bit about yourself, such as where you’re from and how you got to Chapel Hill?
Alma Islas: Well, like you said, my name is Alma Islas and I am from Mexico City. I arrived to North Carolina when I was six years old, and I lived in Pineville North Carolina ever since. I went to Wayne Community College shortly after graduating High School. After receiving my Associates degree, I was accepted to the University of North Carolina. However, I had to take a year off due to the constraints of not having enough aid...financial aid. And then here I am, a year later, after taking a year off. I am a junior here, a Public Policy Major and Entrepreneurship Minor.
KS: What made your family come here when you were age six?
AI: When I was age six, my family actually had, they had a very steady job. Both my parents worked for a bus company in Mexico City. It was a thriving company and then unfortunately, due to corruption in Mexico, the president, like the government, found out how good the company was doing and decided to take over. Then a lot of corruption and things started happening. My father was a supervisor in the company, and he noticed a lot of things were not legal and corrupt. He basically started ri—not riots, but strikes with more of his colleges and decided to stand up to the government. That of course went wrong, and my dad ended up without having a job. So he decided to come to America for a year to just get some money, and then bring it back home and still live in Mexico. But after being here for a year, he realized that getting money was a whole lot easier here than in Mexico
KS: Mhmm
AI: So he decided to send for us and bring us over to North Carolina.
KS: Do you remember anything from living in Mexico City?
AI: I remember very little. Unfortunately, I have very little memories
KS: Yeah
AI: But I do have a lot with my family, more than anything.
KS: Mhmm. We were just talking about this earlier, but how do you identify yourself. Like, on paper? Yeah.
AI: You know, on paper I always tend to say I am Mexican. Although I do have a deep appreciation for my culture, I honestly don’t feel like a Mexican. I feel like I am just as American as anyone else who was born and raised here. Although I wasn’t born here, six years, that are my first few 6 years of my life, I was not engaged at all in the American way. I feel like I have been…. I have been doing, practicing, the American things. I definitely feel American.
KS: Right. Have your Mexican roots provided any barriers or obstacles so far?
AI: I would say so. Like the first obstacles that I had to encounter were when I started 1st grade as a six year old. I did go to a…I went to private school in Mexico, so I did know a little bit of English. But just to give you a quick example of the way they taught us there: “January,” that’s how you say it correct? In Mexico, they would teach us “January”. (han-war-ee). I was already kind of a little disadvantaged because of the teachers. They did know English, but it wasn’t as fluently as you would use it here in America. So one of my first obstacles was the language. Then, all growing up I was always seen as the minority. I was always seen as somewhat of an outsider, but that’s not how I felt. That was kind of… still is a little bit of a--I wouldn’t call it per say a struggle, it’s just kind of been a little bit of a maybe… Yes, like a small obstacle. Obstacles and struggles are the same thing. I am feeling like I am an outsider, or people make me feel like I am an outsider, but me not feeling that way. That’s been the hardest thing.
KS: Mhmm. So its like how you perceive yourself versus how like society perceives you.
AI: That’s correct.
KS: So what are you long-term goals, like dreams and ambitions? That could be career, family, anything.
AI: Well, my long-term goals are to work in education, particularly policy making. I, being a first generation student and an immigrant, have developed a very strong passion for seeking higher education. Unfortunately I wasn’t, I didn’t have anyone to look up to help me, you know. “What do you do to go to college?” “What’s the next step?” “How do you do this?” “How do you do that and the other?” I realized that there’s a strong demand in helping other first generation students like myself-or not even that. Maybe could be also having really good income, but your parents just aren’t there for you. Just helping anyone in general to seek a higher education is where my true passion lies.
KS: Mhmm. Are these different dreams or goals than your parents, did they have any interest in education,
AI: Absolutely. That’s actually one of the primary reasons why my dad sent over for us. He wanted us to have like a steady life and have a really good education. Which is why in Mexico, we went to a private school. He has always valued education. He unfortunately, his dad died when he was ten years old. He had…he really…his dream was to become a doctor. But having seven other siblings, he just ended up not going to school and going to job field. That’s why my dad really values education. He always harped on us how to do well in school, and supported us all the way through.
KS: What would you… or how would you define “the American Dream?”
We hear all the time, you know. Throw it around, but what does it actually mean to you?
AI: That--I’ve been asked that question quite a few times and it’s always a difficult answer. Because in my eyes, the American dream is an opportunity for you to be better--a better life. So basic—it depends… I feel like it varies from person to person. But in my particular experience, the American Dream, to me, is to be able to come from a country where there is corruption to be able to have a future. Whatever it is that I want to do. For me, the future is education and hopefully to be a role model for someone.
KS: This is going to be easy! How has education played a role in your attempts to obtaining your degree?
AI: I think education is not just a matter of getting education in school. I think you can be educated from the workforce or anything that you allow yourself to learn from. I would say that education has played an enormous part in me getting my degree because it has allowed me to learn a diversified number of things. From teachers, from other students, and just basically soaking up as much information and as many things as I can to be successful. And learn from others mistakes, as well as my own.
KS: What else besides taking courses here at the University do you get involved in?
AI: I’m involved in SUIE (Students United for Immigrant Equality). I have two other part time jobs, so that’s where most of my time goes. Between SUIE and my two other jobs. As of now, that’s the only thing I would say I am a part of.
KS: And what do you do with SUIE, and if you would like to say, what are your part-time jobs? Are they related?
AI: SUIE, we do a lot. We have been working on events. Currently, we are working on Immigration Awareness Week. We have also gone out to a moral march. Those are the kinds of events that SUIE has been involved with, and I try to participate in as many things as SUIE has going on. My part time jobs: the first one is working at the Franklin Hotel. I am a server in the restaurant for the breakfast service, and my second part time job is being a babysitter for a little girl around here in Chapel Hill.
KS: Mhmm. Switching topics a little bit. I’m interested in finding out more about how the DREAM act or Obama’s deferred actions can play affect on helping people obtain their dreams or goals. So have either of these helped you out? Or are they unrelated?
AI: Personally, I am an undocumented student. Having undocumented status has been heavy on me receiving my education. As soon as I graduated High School, I panicked a little and thought that I was not going to be able to go to school because at the time the laws were a little vague. They weren’t sure whether to allow undocumented students into the university system, or even in the community college system. Fortunately, I was able to enroll in community college. But let’s say that I wasn’t able to, due to my status. I would say that it would’ve been very hard for me. Devastating. Because it means I would have had to enter the work force and suppressed an opportunity for me to excel in life. I think for Obama to, or for the next president, to have a reform. If a DREAM act came true, would mean a lot, and would actually put a lot of kids into a better education. Which can lead to better work life and more money for the economy
KS: Mhmm. Is that why you work two jobs? Is there financial stress…
AI: Yes
KS: …for you to come to the university?
AI: One of the things about the American Dream that I mentioned before: Yes, a lot of people have conceptions, like myself, that you can come here and be who you want to be. But unfortunately, in America, the way of life is if you don’t have money, or you unfortunately don’t have documented status, you are very limited to what you can do. The American Dream per say, gets crutched a lot, or comes with many obstacles for you to obtain when you a documented status.
KS: Do your parents have undocumented status as well
AI: No
KS: Oh okay, I was going to see if that has…or actually.. Has even their identity provided any obstacles for them as well? Even though they have documentation-has just their identity played a part?
AI: Can you explain that question a little? I don’t think I am understanding it.
KS: Sure! That’s fine. I wanted, because obviously, or it’s more obvious, that sometimes without documentation there are limitations: such as sources for funding. But is just having a Hispanic or Mexican Identity, has that held your parents back at all? Or do you think that America has kind of come past that a little bit?
AI: I think maybe, in some ways, it has been somewhat of a setback for them just because their English. They do speak English, but they have a thick accent. However, sometimes people just look at it, “oh you don’t speak English,” and they kind of look at them a little different or with a less regard. I think both of them show that they are, you know, adequate people for the job or for whatever they’re setting themselves up for. I would say yes, that them being Mexican and having a thick accent has set them back a little. I would definitely say that America has not surpassed the fact that someone is a different color, then they can do just the same thing as anyone else, just because of that.
KS: The language barrier?
AI: Mhmm.
KS: And what do your parents do here? Your dad was the supervisor back in Mexico City. So does…
AI: He works in construction and my mother works at a McDonalds restaurant.
KS: Mhmm ok. Does…do you have any siblings or others that go to school as well/ Do they have the same dreams and goals as you?
AI: I have three other siblings. I have one, the youngest one she was born here. She hopes to be a teacher. She is only a freshman, so perhaps that will change. She is still young. If not, then good for her. That’s awesome. My other sister, she wants to be a nurse. She is also undocumented like myself, and then my older brother he wants to be a nutritionist
KS: Wow.
AI: He is going to school right now at Wayne Community College
KS: Awesome! So does he have plans to come to the University?
AI: Yes, he is actually planning on transferring to ECU in the fall.
KS: Mhmm, that’s nice. What would make the transition into academia easier for undocumented? What would be the—if we could just fix one problem, what would it be?
AI: Quite frankly, it would be great for us to just be granted document status. But I do see, because of the political arena right now, it’s probably not a possibility. If we could just fix a lesser thing than that, I would just say for there to be an executive order or just a law that would allow undocumented student to receive their education and be able to rehearse that education by receiving a job afterwards.
KS: If you were still in Mexico City, how do you think your life would be?
AI: I really think its kind of hard for me to imagine life in Mexico because I know very little about it. I don’t… the only things I do know is from what I hear from my relatives back home. I like to make the best of every situation in any setting I am in. I think I would probably still be in school, but I think it would definitely be a whole lot harder for me to have put myself through school just because in Mexico, it’s a whole lot more expensive to be in school. It’s not kind of an equal opportunity as much as it is here in America in order for you to receive that. And I say equal opportunity, but then at the same time its not really equal, because a lot of undocumented students aren’t getting that equality here.
KS: Do you ever plan to go back maybe and visit your family? Or you maintain communication with them?
AI: Oh, we maintain very good communication. However, I do. I hope to be able to. It all just depends if I get permission from immigration, and all that good stuff. If I would get permission, I would definitely hop on a plane and go as soon as possible.
KS: And what’s the process of getting permission? What does that entail?
AI: Well currently, because I fall under DACA (Deferred action for Childhood Arrivals), I can file for advanced parole, which would give me permission to go to Mexico. But it has to…its only for a few number of reasons. One of them would be if a relative back home is sick and has an illness. Then, they could probably give me permission to do that. Another way that I can think of going to Mexico from advanced parole is if I have a job and they send me over there, or if I do a study abroad experience in Mexico.
KS: The DACA, that if I understand this, that’s not citizen. So, is there a pathway for citizenship coming for you along the way, do you think?
AI: I don’t necessarily see one. I know I probably have to do more research. I have done a fair amount of research and there’s nothing out there for me particularly, unless I marry an American citizen. But of course, I won’t force myself to fall in love with a citizen. But if that does happen, that’s great because I could get my citizenship and legal status that way. But as the way the law stands right now, there’s just no path for me.
KS: So what is that like? It’s something I don’t understand or experience, but what does that feel like to be an undocumented and knowing that you might be that way for a couple years?
AI: The most fearful thing is that I could remain this status for the rest of my life, which is kind of scary. Being undocumented, like I said, I don’t think that I am undocumented everyday. So I feel, like I said before, like I’m an American--just as my roommates that were born here in the US. But every once in a while, for example when considering a job, I have to think, “Well, I only have permission to work for X amount of time because of Obama’s deferred action. Once that runs out, what am I going to do? It is a scary feeling when I have to think about things like that. Or even just having a steady life here. I have been very afraid that I would have to go back to Mexico and exercise my degree there. That is probably what I think about the most. Defining myself as an undocumented person in America is scary because there’s a lot of uncertainty about my future, and not knowing necessarily what will happen and what I will be able to do.
(PAUSE). BEGIN FOLLOW-UP INTERVIEW.
KS: Alright, this is Kayla Schliewe doing a follow-up interview with Alma Islas on Monday, March 30th at 4:34 p.m in the Undergraduate Library in the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill’s campus. I’m just going to get started. Did you parents need any skills trainings or higher education to get the supervisor positions that they had in Mexico City?
AI: In Mexico City, no they did not. My mother finished high school and she was a secretary for where she worked, in the bus company. My father just finished middle school, so yes, no they did not receive any. Maybe they did need some sort of formal training, but none that they have told me about. There’s none that they’ve told me about, any educational…
KS: Wow. Middle School, that’s impressive. (Laughter). So in Mexico, if you don’t have educational background, for upward mobility, how do you get a better standard of living in Mexico? If you don’t need education, what do you do?
AI: Well, this also relates back, for my parents, this relates back to quite a few years back down the road. But now, according to when I talk to my family and my relatives, they tell me that you do have to have education in order to have a decent job. But when going to school is so much more expensive there, it can be very hard to get a decent job. Especially in a city like Mexico City where there’s a lot of people that live there. You’re just competing for about anything you can get.
KS: Wow. I wanted to know, are the qualifications from US and from Mexico, are they different? Is a manager in Mexico different than a manager in the US? Do you know what I mean? Are they equal?
AI: Honestly, I don’t think I can really answer the question super good, just because I was never really raised in Mexico. I don’t exactly know how one views a manager there versus how one views a manager here. Once again, just what I hear from relatives, I know that people with higher authority here in the US are definitely more respected than in Mexico. Because unfortunately, due to corruption and all that, that aspect gets a little swallowed. The people in higher authority don’t always necessarily get the respect they should.
KS: Mhmm. How many years has your dad been in construction here? Did he just start that right when he came?
AI: No, he started working at a nursery when he first got here. He worked there for maybe five or six years. He wasn’t getting paid overtime, and he was being treated not with—fairly. So he quit that and started working in… he had a heating and air conditioning job for a couple of years. Then, he has been working the rest of that time, so seven plus years perhaps, in construction.
KS: Mhmm. Okay. How does he like it so far? Do you think he is going to change jobs again, do you think?
AI: No, I definitely think this is where he will stay. His boss really treats him fairly and they really like my father and his work. My father, he really enjoys doing it, even before he started working construction, he’s always built things for the house and everything. He really enjoys it, so I think that’s where he is going to be at.
KS: Cool. Why do you think that he went to the nursery, and to all these other jobs when he was a supervisor at this bussing company? Why do you think he changed careers so dramatically? Why didn’t he find something in the US that was bus—like, there’s bussing in Raleigh and around the area.
AI: Well, for sure, one thing that I do know is that a degree there or the qualifications in Mexico do not necessarily translate to the same thing in the United States. The primary reason he just went to the nursery job was because when he got here, my mother had a relative. That’s where my dad, he lived with them. They had a job there and they just helped him get a job within that nursery company. However, he didn’t speak the language, so it would have been kind of difficult for him to start at a manager position. Especially because in the United States, they do require an education level; and, he wouldn’t have met that level of requirement.
KS: Okay. Did he—so it was your aunt at the nursery? Or was it a friend at the nursery?
AI: Oh, it was my mother’s cousin.
KS: So did he have the job with her before he even left Mexico City? He came to North Carolina with that job?
AI: He also… When my dad came here he did already have that job lined up for him. My mother’s relatives had already asked around to see if they could have a position for my dad, and they said yes. Then, my dad travelled here, knowing that he would have a job lined up.
KS: How did he travel?
AI: He came here by car.
KS: Just drove through?
AI: Mhmm.
KS: How long was he working with your mom’s family before he brought back for you and your mom and your siblings.
AI: Mhmm. So, his original plan was not to make a livelihood here. He was just supposed to come here and get a little bit of money while things in Mexico City were hopefully going to get better. He realized that getting money here was a bit easier than in Mexico and was a whole lot more—maybe not a whole lot more. Okay, maybe I am speaking too boldly. He figured it was a lot easier to have that lifestyle here, especially because we lived in the country versus the city life. He thought it would be a better place to raise us, so after almost a year, he called my mother and told her: “Hey, I really want you guys to come here and live with me. I think this would be a better change for all of us.”
KS: Does your mom ever talk about that year apart at all? You were only six though. I don’t know. The year that your father was in the US, and you and your mother was back home, do you have any memories about that or stories?
AI: I don’t really remember quite a lot. I only do remember when my dad left. He didn’t say good-bye to me. He just kind of left one day and then the next I was like “Where’s dad?” Then they finally broke it down to me, “he will be back, and he’s just off for a good…” I don’t even remember exactly what they said he was off doing. Yeah, I remember that. He would constantly call us and keep in touch with us. I do remember when he called and they told us that I was going to go see my dad. To me, it didn’t really… I wasn’t even questioning it. I just knew I was going to go back and see my dad, because me and my dad were always close as a child. We still are. I was just super excited to be reunited with my dad again. I didn’t really question the motives or…
KS: What was happening.
AI: Mhmm.
KS: (Laughing). I like that. So, I guess it’s sort of the same thing for your mom. I wanted to ask why she did that change from supervisor position to now she is in the fast food industry. What has her work journey been like here?
AI: Mhmm. My mom just went from being, I wouldn’t say like an ordinary secretary, but she was just a secretary in Mexico to being in the fast food industry in American for the same reasons as my father. She didn’t know the language, and that was just the entry-level job that she could get here. The qualifications that she had in order to be a secretary did not translate here in America. She had to take what available positions were open. That is what was open at the time and she has been working at McDonalds ever since.
KS: Yeah. Does she like it?
AI: I wouldn’t say that she likes it. I think even she would say that she doesn’t like it, but it is what she can work. It is the job availability that she has based on her status. She definitely is qualified to do more than just being a McDonalds employee.
KS: Right.
AI: But, because of her status, she cant go any further. She was also manager at one point, but she had to step down due to her status.
KS: I thought that your parents had status in the US? Both of your parents don’t have…
AI: No, they don’t have anything.
KS: Oh wow, I think I misunderstood that in the last interview. Well, that leads into my next question. Since coming to the US, have your parents received any higher education or skills training? In order for your mom to potentially have a higher paying job or a better job, she could go and possibly try for an associate’s degree or something.
AI: Mhmm.
KS: Have any of those attempts been made?
AI: My dad has received I guess formal training for his job. My mother has receiving training to become a manager at McDonalds, which she was. My dad was a manager at—he was an assistant manager at McDonalds. He also worked at McDonalds for a number of years. They have not made an attempt to pursue higher education just because they haven’t had the time to dedicate to school and work, based on them raising four children.
KS: Right.
AI: They didn’t necessarily, I guess, see that as an opportunity for them. They preferred for them to work as hard as they can for us to have an educational opportunity.
KS: Wow. I like that. So busy with work, and busy with kids, how would you describe your family’s social presence in the community that they live?
AI: Well, I think that both my parents, more so my dad, is more involved in the community. They partake in the community, when I started in the community college I got them a little more involved. They started taking ESL classes. And they go to events at the community college. My dad, he had a soccer team, when I was in High School, for the Hispanic League nearby. Then, he started another soccer team for Elementary School when my little cousins were there. So, he’s been involved in the community on and off, of course. Whenever he feels like he has to take on more hours at work, he lays off of the community involvement. My mother, just because of her personality, is a shy person. She is not as involved as my dad is. But, she does go to every event that my dad goes to for support.
KS: Aw.
AI: She’s just the quiet one, but is very supporting.
KS: Okay. (Laughter). So how is your family life at home? So what is the relationship like and how does the Islas family work?
AI: Mhmm. I would say that my family is just very diverse. Because my mother is the shy one out of the whole family, and my little sister takes on after her. I have always been a little bit outspoken and outgoing, the same for my dad and another one of my sisters. So, we kind of have a little mixture. Then we have my brother that’s in between; he doesn’t talk too much but he doesn’t talk too little.
KS: Is he the middle child?
AI: No, he is the oldest child.
KS: Oh! (Laughter).
AI: I wouldn’t definitely say that we have a good dynamic in the Islas household. We all get along great. Of course, like any other family, every now and then we have our dilemmas. I think that we are very supportive of each other, and that’s one of the things that I definitely hold strong for my culture. We are very family-oriented.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: If we ever have an issue, we all get together and try to be there for each other.
KS: That’s good. This is… I’m going to start talking about some stereotypes, or maybe I am going to ask about some. I am trying to think… Has your family ever kind of taught you like gender roles, or has that been? Because that’s kind of like a stereotype up against a Hispanic culture is that men do one thing and women do another. Have you seen that in your family?
AI: Not very much. Because my parents were raised in a city, they were a bit more progressive than some of the rest of the Mexicans that were a little more country, I guess you could say. My mother, she has always believed in equality and equality of both sexes. My mom, she just doesn’t let my sisters do the cooking or the dishes. She is always showing my brother how to do things around the house, as well. So, I have never really seen a bias or sexualism. My father, he’s always taught—I know how to fix my car, I know how to do oil changes, because my father has always believed in that, too. You know, women and men should have equal rights.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: So I definitely don’t think I have seen sexist roles being instilled in my family. Like I said, I think that goes back because my parents were raised in the city and had a little bit more progressive ideas, I would say.
KS: Mhmm. And what, to you, because I don’t know the answer, but what is the difference between Hispanic and Latino?
KS: You know, that’s a … I don’t really know how to—I don’t know the exact differences. When you say Hispanic, to me, I think of generally just Mexico and Central America. Now, once we start talking about Southern…South America, I probably feel like I would throw in the Latino in there. Because, to me, Hispanic is people that speak Spanish and sometimes Brazilians, you can correct me if I am wrong. You know, I am not an expert.
KS: Sure.
AI: But, I feel like sometimes they get lumped in. And Latinos, just because they have somewhat of a Latin culture, but some of them don’t speak Spanish. To me, I feel like Hispanics is someone who speaks Spanish and is someone who is more from Central America and North America, being Mexico.
KS: Does that… We were talking about identity last time, and did you identify as a Mexican or American? You feel American, but you are a Mexican, and now you’ve got these words: Hispanic and Latina to throw in there. How does that affect?
AI: Well, it definitely does affect me, because like I said, I don’t even necessarily now the full definition of Hispanic and Latina. I consider myself Hispanic, and I consider myself that just because of my own personal definition of what Hispanic means. Because I was born in Mexico and both parents were born there.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: Am I answering your question?
KS: No, yeah! It’s a very confusing question, and that’s what I think I am getting at. What do you call yourself, when you have all these words thrown at you all the time?
AI: That is true.
KS: Are you Hispanic, and Latina, and Mexican, but you can feel American?
AI: I usually, just when I introduce myself, I say that I was born in Mexico, but raised in North Carolina. I feel like I am definitely a mix of cultures, you know. With Hispanic heritage and American Heritage, because to me, all I really know is America. I love fried chicken just as much as any one else does around here! (Laughter).
KS: Go, Tar Heels! (Laughter). Oh, that’s a good lead to my next question. Do you, and your family, or just you, embrace Hispanic traditions here in North Carolina?
AI: Yes, we definitely do. When we first, from what I can remember, when we first arrived here, we were new to a lot of the holidays and to a lot of the things that Americans did. As we became—as we learned a little bit more, because obviously, I was in school so they taught us a little bit more about the holidays. My parents always wanted to be involved, Such as Martin Luther Kind Jr. Day. My parents were always trying to be involved, like, “Hey, what does this mean? What can we do for this day?” For Fourth of July, we go out and do things. So, we always try to participate in a community event or the holidays, for the American Holidays.
KS: Right. What’s your favorite American Holiday or cultural thing?
AI: My favorite American holiday would definitely be Thanksgiving.
KS: Yes!
AI: (Laughing). It really does touch me every single year. Being thankful, and not just that day to be thankful, but I think coming from a Hispanic background, we are very family-oriented. We like to thank everyday for what we have. You know, for as little as we do have, we thank God for it. So, I think a specific day dedicated to being thankful for what you have, I think it’s great. My family has always participated in that holiday, and I think that’s definitely my favorite.
KS: That’s nice. What about…It seems like you and your family have pretty much adopted the American life, but is there any part of the Hispanic culture you just got to keep?
AI: Oh, absolutely! That’s one of the things I do like about my family, and that’s why I say that I feel like I am American--Mexican-American. We also, at home, just about every—all Hispanic holidays--Mexican holidays, we try to celebrate. My parents always try to teach us about it. Like Cinco de Mayo, I was, at first, confused and thinking, “Hey, I know that’s not our independence day, but why do people call it that?”
Ks: Mhmm.
AI: So, my parents take every opportunity they can to teach us and to tell us, “You now what, that’s not what it is.” Or just any random holiday that’s celebrated in Mexico, but not here, they’ll say, ”Hey, you know today’s X Day and this is how it’s celebrated and this is what you should know about it.” My parents always try to keep our roots—bring us back to our roots and tell us that it is always important to remember our culture.
KS: Mhmm. Well, because you speak Spanish at home, correct?
AI: Mhmm.
KS: Do you embrace like the food and the culture and the music?
AI: Yes.
KS: Yeah, all of it?
AI: Absolutely.
KS: What’s your favorite part about that?
AI: Well, absolutely, the food! (Laughing). The food is my favorite. We always, like I said, we do go to outings; we do go to celebrations like quinceñeras, and celebrations like that. We always dance, and my dad’s always been a really outgoing guy and he teaches us how to dance salsa and merengue. So, I know a little bit about just about every dance because of him. He always tries to embrace out culture, and also, he is really open to the American culture. We go out with our American friends and do a little line dancing, do a little, you know! (Laughing).
KS: Cha-cha slide! (Laughing).
AI: We definitely do. He’s not afraid to soak in a difference in cultures.
KS: I like that, too. (Papers rustling). How have—well Ill go back to the stereotypes. Have you had to personally battle any stereotypes that exist between the two cultures?
AI: Yes. Well… Being of a tanner skin color and I have always randomly… When I used to work at McDonalds or Cookout, or any job that I particularly had, I always, whenever I am serving someone, they typically think that I don’t speak English. Or they think that my English is not very good. It’s been kind of hard to overcome that stereotype. Or it was. I think I finally overcame it. Whenever I get a little stare, and people slow down their words like I don’t understand, it kind of makes me feel a little upset. Because I am like, “Hey, I speak English.”
KS: Right.
AI: I think that’s something that has not just impacted myself, but my whole family, because we get stereotypes like that. Or, people think that I don’t go to a College. I‘ve gotten that, too. People just think, “Oh, you work at Cookout or McDonalds, you’re just--that’s what you do for a living?” No. I am a student.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: So, those types of stereotypes have been a little…they can make you feel bad every now and then.
KS: I’m sure.
AI: But, I think I’ve gotten to a point where I’ve overcame those, whenever I get stereotyped that way. I think I don’t really get bothered anymore. I take it as ignorance on the other person who’s stereotyping me that way.
KS: Sure. But now, you’re working at the Franklin Hotel and you’re also a babysitter, a nanny?
AI: Mhmm.
KS: So when do you find time? So you go to the Franklin Hotel in the morning… What does your day look like? I am amazed you fit so much!
AI: (Laughter). So I guess my daily routines would be every Monday and Wednesday, I go to school and then right after that I go take care of a little girl. Then, I come back to school around 6:00, have dinner and then go home and do some studying and get some sleep because on Tuesdays and Thursdays, I work anywhere from 5:00 to 6:00 in the morning. Then, I get off work at 10:45 or 10:30, and then head straight to class from 11:00 to 4:45. I use my free time, as I so like to call it…. (Laughter). …to study or catch up on homework or do whatever it is that I need to do at that time.
KS: Right.
AI: On Thursdays, that’s my longer days, because right as soon as I get out of class, I am involved with SUIE (Students United for Immigrant Equality). I attend their weekly meetings. Yeah. On Fridays I do the similar: work in the morning again, and then I go to school, and then go babysit. My weekend is working again and just catching up with schoolwork.
KS: You have a really good work ethic, I think. Because it gets hard when you have papers and classes and you just keep working. I think you have a really strong sense of work ethic. (Laughter). Are there…. The service industry, okay, so that gets generalized as a Hispanic job, so I just want to know, In the Franklin Hotel, are there other Hispanics that you work with? Or is there a great variety? What does that work dynamic look like?
AI: Honestly, it’s mostly Hispanics. There’s a few that are not Hispanic.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: But for the most part, its just Mexicans and Guatemalans, I think that’s all we have in the Franklin Hotel. I have worked a lot in the service industry, and you see basically the majority Hispanics, especially in the kitchens. For example, when I worked at the Governor’s Club--that’s a different story actually. That’s a different story. You did have a good dynamic there, just because you did have to have professional chefs. And not to say that Hispanics don’t take the time to do so, but sometimes a lot of the Hispanics that do come here as immigrants, a good chunk of them are undocumented, so it’s a little harder to get these certificates and get the schooling behind. Whenever you have a job such as the Governor’s Club that requires these certificates and what not, you don’t see a lot of Hispanics in this particular field. It’s just because there’s more requirements to there.
KS: Who works in those jobs?
AI: Typically for the certification jobs, you get a good variety. Mostly Americans are working in those positions where you have to have some sorts of certificates or degrees to work in.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: And that is what I have seen, but however in the service industry jobs like Cookout and McDonalds that I have worked at, you see the majority, I would say at least about 95% …
KS: Wow.
AI: … of the people are Hispanics working in the kitchens. In the front of the house, you typically get the Americans that are there. I also think too, it’s because of the language. Just people feel more comfortable. Although they can speak English, they feel a little bit more comfortable not being at the front of the house.
KS: Right.
AI: Also, it’s like everyone in the back with you it’s like a community, a family.
AI: That’s true.
KS: You can have like a work family. So when you have work, and you have new jobs, is status something that is talked about? Or is that something that is not talked about? Like if you got a new job, and you see the kitchen is full of people form Mexico or people from Guatemala, do you just say, “Hey, I’m from Mexico too. Are you a citizen?” How does that go?
AI: Uh huh. Typically, Hispanics are definitely more open. Not that you assume that you’re undocumented just because yore another Hispanic…
KS: Sure.
AI: …but, you feel more comfortable. You have a sense of I’m not going to be judged, or I can be free and tell you if I am undocumented, if I choose to.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: However, because I’ve worked both. I’ve worked in the kitchen and in the front of the house, and registers and drive-thru. I don’t feel as comfortable telling an American that I am, just because I am afraid of getting stereotyped or any negative repercussions that may come behind me saying that. However, if I am working in the kitchen, I feel much more comfortable telling you, “Yes, I am undocumented. How about you?” But, It’s not something that we all talk about as soon as we meet.
KS: Sure. (Laughter).
AI: You automatically feel like family.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: You feel really liberated, you feel like no judgment. That’s how you feel whenever you work with someone else that’s Hispanic.
KS: Mhmm. It’s because you’re family oriented. It’s in your blood! I love it. Last couple questions. How have your dreams evolved, as you’ve gotten older?
AI: I would say, when I was younger, I sued to think that the step to get to was being a high school graduate. I thought that was going to be where I needed to be. You know, when I was anywhere from middle school and less, I thought that high school was it. My dad didn’t make it to high school graduation and my mom did, but that’s all that she did. I thought that’s where I needed to be. But as I became, started to go into high school and finishing middle school, I realized that there’s more than just high school. There’s college. I wanted that that just as much s anybody else. So I think yes, my goals definitely changed from being a high school graduate to now, obtaining a Masters degree.
KS: That’s your end target? The Masters?
AI: Oh, actually, my end target is a Doctorate, but with what I want to do, not that I don’t need a Doctorate, but I think that I will be well equipped with a Masters. Just because of my status and how much it takes to afford school, I don’t think that a Doctorate will be very feasible, just in the money sense.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: But of course, you know, if I do get another wonderful scholarship like the one I have, I definitely would love to go for it.
KS: Yeah. How have your self-perceptions changed over time?
AI: Can you explain that question a little more?
KS: Sure. A self-perception is like how do you think about yourself. So, when you were young, you probably had this idea, and so how has that grown or changed?
AI: Okay. Whenever I was younger, I do remember thinking I could be anything that I wanted to be.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: And then, right when I was graduating high school, I said, “No, I cant, because I am undocumented.” At some point in my childhood years, I wanted to be in the Medical field.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: Right when I was getting ready to finish high school, I realized that to get into nursing programs or anything allied-health related, you had to have social security. So, automatically, I started realizing that I’m actually limited. Although, I want to be anything that—my mindset said that I can be anything that I wanted to be. On the contrary, I am limited because of the status that I do have. I could be the smartest in whatever specific field I wanted to be, but because of my status, I am limited. That doesn’t mean that it is impossible, but I am limited. SO I think that my self-perception changed a little. I more so oriented myself to what I can do, and excel from that. I think that’s how my self-perception has changed. Doing what I can do, based on my limitations.
KS: Mhmm. Is high school the first time you started noticing those limitations?
AI: Yes.
KS: That’s when it all started.
AI: It really started whenever… Drivers Ed.
KS: Oh right. Right.
AI: Driver’s Ed is whenever I realized, “Oh, I am different.” (Laughter).
KS: I wanted to know, how did you find out about your undocumented status?
AI: I’ve always known that I was undocumented.
KS: Oh, okay.
AI: But it’s not something that I kept being reminded of every day, much like I do now. You know, K-12, because of that Supreme Court Case ruling…
KS: Mhmm.
AI: …anyone can be in anything from K-12. The whole entire time, up to middle school, I would say that I felt like I had equal opportunities. But once I started getting to fourteen and a half, fifteen, having to take Drivers Ed, that’s the first time where,” You’re undocumented? Sorry, hold on.” You can’t do everything as you think you can.
KS: Right.
AI: That was the moment that, slowly but surely, it started building up. It was particularly after 9/11 whenever new laws started, Homeland Security.
KS: Right.
AI: Started chiming in and crating new laws that prevented me from being a regular, normal person.
KS: A regular, normal person? So you felt like you were less of a person?
AI: I definitely…in a sense, Yes.
KS: Yeah.
AI: Because I don’t consider myself a criminal. Unfortunately, under the law, some people see me as a criminal. So I think whenever you put a fifteen or fourteen year old child and say, “You can’t get a Driver’s License,” because under the scope, you are considered as somewhat of a criminal,” that does some things to a person. It kind of makes you feel lesser of a person. I felt like, you know, I was equal, but whenever little things like that occur, it does…it can hurt a little bit.
KS: Mhmm. Wow. Well… Do you ever look back, because now yore older, you’re wise, you’re in school, you’ve been with the system that has kind of pushed you down a little bit—or maybe a lot, do you ever look at your past and ever look at things differently because of your experiences?
AI: Yes, always. Always. Every time I look back, I couldn’t have a license then, but now I have a license.
Ks: Mhmm.
AI: little things like that, I like to look and see where I am. I don’t like to look backwards a lot, just because it can bring back sad feelings or emotional feelings that can just cloud up my judgment moving forward. But I do like to look at what obstacles I have overcome. For example, I thought that I wasn’t going to come here to UNC, just because I didn’t have the money. But, I was fortunate enough to receive a scholarship that is going to put me through my last two years here. So I look at what I have overcame, and not dig in too deep to at the time why I couldn’t do it.
KS: Right.
AI: I just see it as it is possible. So while I do have limitations, I still can do a lot with those limitations that I have.
KS: You’re just always so positive and I think that you’re kind of like a really big inspiration to others. I really appreciate that you’re letting me have your story, and that I can share it to other people because hopefully you can reach others. Maybe with your work with public policy or with SUIE, you can reach others and inspire them, too.
AI: Thank you!
KS: I am out of questions, so again, thank you for your time.
AI: Thank you, I appreciate it!
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-0811 -- Islas, Alma.
Description
An account of the resource
Alma Islas discusses her experience coming to North Carolina from Mexico City at the age of six. She discusses her family’s work in Mexico and the motives behind migrating to the United States. She speaks about the identity struggle she felt since arriving and her conflicts about being Mexican on paper, but feeling more American in practice. She talks about her long-term goals and then the goals of her father and three siblings. She works two part-time jobs to help finance her education, and also works with SUIE (Students United for Immigrant Equality), an on-campus organization. Alma highlights the importance education has had in her life. She discusses the private education system in Mexico and mentioned that language was often a barrier for her growing up. She discusses DACA, and how that affects her both in a legal sense and emotionally. She discusses her life as an undocumented student and talks about the few options she has towards filing for citizenship.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
18 March 2015
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
R0811_Audio.mp3
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/26851">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/02876c98ea2a3668838fd9dc090a2525.mp3
7dd2af718c83917476a03be12f9ba659
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/c0ec4d42c1e04ca4763162f0e1e8e64c.pdf
c591d31491248cfa10f2277fe55932e1
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0698
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
01 April 2014
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Smith, Jane, pseud.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Students Social justice activists
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1992
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Peru
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Chapel Hill -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-75.25 -10),1992,1;POINT(-79.05584450000003 35.9131996),2001,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Lodaya, Hetali.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Jane Smith (pseudonym), speaks about her involvement with issues related to migration, and the broader landscape of student activism work related to immigration in North Carolina. She shares stories from her work with Students United for Immigrant Equality at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and her observations on the challenges of working with the undocumented population in North Carolina. In particular, she finds the lack of central leadership challenging, and discusses how different stakeholders in the state might be able to work more effectively together. From her perspective, the landscape of activism in North Carolina has shifted over the past few years from solely awareness and advocacy work, to include more of a policy focus, in light of federal policies such as Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA). Advocacy has also changed as more and more undocumented students are becoming open about their status and choosing to advocate for themselves; this, however, sometimes creates tension when considering the role of allies in the movement.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Jane Smith, pseud., by Hetali Lodaya, 01 April 2014, R-0698, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/20192
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Activism; Citizenship and immigration; Education; DREAMers and DACA; Receiving communities
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Hetali Lodaya: This is Hetali Lodaya. I’m interviewing Jane, which is a pseudonym, on April 1st, 2014, on the 2nd floor of the Campus Y at UNC-Chapel Hill. So let’s just start with some background. Can you talk about where you’re from and how long you’ve been in North Carolina?
Jane Smith: Yes. I was born in Peru, I lived there until I was about nine or so, moved to the US in 2000 [pause] 2001, about? It was a long time ago, but I’ve been in North Carolina since, I’ve been in North Carolina for eight years now. So, the longest I’ve ever been anywhere.
HL: Can you give a little bit of background on your family that’s here in North Carolina, and that’s maybe still in other places?
JS: Yeah, so my immediate family lives in North Carolina, my parents, my siblings, but the rest of my family, uncles, aunts, cousins, all live back in Peru.
HL: And, just sort of describing your involvement in advocacy work, can you give a little background on where it began, and what kinds of things you’ve been involved in?
JS: Right, so, I’m undocumented, which for years I didn’t think really meant anything. I guess when you’re younger, when you’re a child, your parents are exposed to the bulk of what that situation means and I was really privileged at how my parents handled the situation. Working three jobs a day, and never really acting any different at home, still being great parents. I went to public school, it was all normal. And I guess it really kind of hit me when I turned, what was it, fourteen, fifteen, and I had to get a permit and I was able to get my permit, but by the time I got my permit, my driving permit, North Carolina legislation had changed to where you needed a social security number to get anything driving-related. So I could not get a license, and the rest of my peers got a license, and that was really the first time that the situation kind of hit me personally. It struck me as incredibly unfair, and after so many years of not being exposed to it at all, I really didn’t know what to make of it, so it was more of a confusion time. Then coming to college was I guess the next big step that really kind of differentiated me from everyone else that I had become friends with in my lifetime in North Carolina. It’s easy as the fact that everyone would be applying freely and applying to financial aid or whatever, whatever way they could afford to go to school, and those options were just not available to me. When I was, what was it, like eighteen, I was faced with the decision in which I’d gotten into all the schools that I’d applied for, but I simply could not pay for any of them. So I was faced with the decision of okay, right now, do I leave the country? Because I will go to college, whether it’s here or Peru or wherever. So, do I leave the country and face not seeing my family for ten years, because of the ten year bar, or do I stay here and, I guess, try to get some sort of job and try to pay my way through community college. And then miraculously, I was able to get a scholarship, a private scholarship, that covered my attendance at Carolina. And I felt like that was a sign. I felt like I’d been really confused and kind of useless, and the bigger picture of what this immigration debacle is in the United States [pause], and I felt like coming here meant, you’ve got to do something with this, more than just go to class. So I guess that’s kind of what pushed me to seek out, especially in the Chapel Hill area, what was currently being done with students like me. I actually had another friend who was undocumented, and he was openly undocumented, and that to me was a completely foreign, new concept. I met him my first year, is when I met him. He had gone to State and had dropped out because he couldn’t afford it, and he told me, you know, there’s actually this organization at Carolina, and they work with immigration advocacy on campus, and you should go to their meetings, they meet this time, and he didn’t even go to Carolina. And I was like, ok, yeah, yeah, you know, I’ll go. And that’s how I got involved with SUIE first, so yeah, I guess that’s background, kind of how it all started.
HL: And can you describe what kinds of work you did, you’ve done, with SUIE?
JS: Right, so, SUIE is Students United for Immigrant Equality here on campus, and when I joined, we were about two years old. Very new organization, and the way immigration work is done in North Carolina, you have obviously a lot of levels, like lobbying, anywhere from grassroots to lobbying, to going to DC and trying to figure things out over there, which our other co-chair does. But when we started we were fairly new, so we focused more on doing events on campus that kind of raised awareness about the misconceptions that people have about your day-to-day immigrant, or specifically your day-to-day undocumented immigrant. My first year, it was a year or two after the Trail of Dreams, the walkers from Florida that walked all the way to DC, and that was one of the first instances of having openly undocumented students saying, hey, I’m not a criminal, I’m educated, and I want to be a part of this society, I’ve lived here, I’ve grown up here. So that was kind of the regime change that we were at at that point. Because up until then, I think, immigration work had been a lot of work done by allies, that, they said, you know, we stand for undocumented people and we really believe that they deserve these human rights to education, to health, health insurance, and things like that. But when I joined it was kind of a change of undocumented people themselves coming out and saying, this is who I am, I speak English, I’m here, I’m part of your society. You know, every person knows, directly or indirectly, an undocumented person, there’s 11 million of us out there. So our other co-chair, he was openly undocumented at the time, and it was an interesting dynamic for me personally because I wasn’t, and seeing all of these people come out. So we worked with the Immigrant Youth Forum, a local high school student group from Carrboro, and they’re high school students who are undocumented, and they’re juniors, seniors, and the struggle of trying to transition into college. And they would come and have coming out rallies at the Pit, where they would, you know, with a megaphone, say, hey, my name is so-and-so, I’m this old, and I am Carolina born and bred, but I will not be going here because of this policy, essentially. And we started getting a great response, and people-it was a new way of doing things, people were really kind of taken by it, and we said, hey, you know, we should have a big thing once a semester and see what the interest is in people, and maybe raise funds for a scholarship. And so the year that I joined we did our first Immigration Awareness Week with a big banquet, where we brought Jose Antonio Vargas to speak. He is an undocumented journalist who now is a big advocate, and does amazing work, but we got him before he was famous, so he was cheap. But thanks to him, and thanks to his help and the banquet, we raised money, it was like 1500 dollars, nothing huge, but still could pay for a semester or so of community college. It’s something, anything, could help. So that’s how we started, and from there we’ve continued to do that in the past three years, and we’ve also kind of taken up the tuition equity campaigning battle. We took that from a different aspect, we would meet with stakeholders on campus. We really believed that Carolina, specifically being the flagship school of public education, should be accessible to everyone, if nowhere else in North Carolina. And you try to approach it through the chancellor, and through stakeholders, and it was a battle. It still is, but we launched the One State, One Rate campaign, which gained public-public attention, because nothing like that had come out from Carolina before. And it was during this time that I came out also as undocumented. That–you know, I think it helped, and I hope it helped, and I, since then I’ve been openly okay with talking about it, and I think it really does change the perspectives when you meet someone that is undocumented. So we’ve been working with the One State, One Rate campaign, since it has spread out to NC State, UNC-Charlotte, and UNC-Asheville. They’re doing kind of local work through the campaign on their campuses, but the idea is that if we spark enough ruckus in enough campuses, then the decision making will be kind of pushed by educators. We want to make this an education issue, though the One State, One Rate campaign, so tuition equity has kind of been our focus lately.
HL: I remember being there at one of those rallies in the pit, it was really special. Talking about that change in how advocacy work is done, shifting from allies to the students and the people themselves doing that advocacy, can you talk about how those two pieces of who you are, the fact that you’re a student and the fact that you’re an undocumented student, how do you think they affect your interactions with all of these stakeholders? With legislators, people in the university?
JS: Interestingly enough, there’s upsides and downsides of being any player in advocacy work. If you are an ally, who is pushing for tuition equity, you will have stakeholders who maybe believe you don’t have the credibility to speak on that issue because you’re not undocumented. Then you may have undocumented students themselves, who say, hey, we’re coming out now! We’re here, we have our own voices, don’t speak for us, speak with us. So it’s been an interesting shifting change because it’s created a lot of different mentalities as to how to work together now.
HL: How do you feel about that? Working with, or the role of people that are allies?
JS: Well, it’s been one of my biggest struggles because I was, in my opinion, I was cowardly for a long time. I’m not saying that people who don’t come out as undocumented are all cowards, but I felt that way, and I felt that seeing a fifteen-year-old undocumented high school student come out on a college campus and say, you know, this is my situation, I felt that was admirable, and I felt-that’s, those were the kind of stories that pushed me to come out as well. And I feel like allies are an incredibly important part of the movement. I feel like they are the ones who have the vote, at the end of the day. Not that we depend on them, and I feel like undocumented stories are obviously the core of it, but I’ve definitely experienced some backlash from the undocumented community to the ally community, within the movement. That’s been one of my biggest struggles in working in immigration advocacy in North Carolina, that you have all these allies who’s been at it for years, and yes, they’re not undocumented, but it speaks so highly of them that they spend so much time and they are so passionate about the cause that they’re out there doing what they can, organizing, and so I’m all for allies. I’m all for any and all people who want to move this forward. Because at the end of the day there’s a goal, and I think scattering amongst the ranks isn’t really the way to move forward together, so yeah, I’m all for allies. A lot of my best friends have been my best supporters, and they’re not undocumented.
HL: Yeah, absolutely, and sorry, I kind of side tracked you from the original question, of the pieces of your identity affecting your role in advocacy in the state of North Carolina.
JS: Right, so, as a student [pause] I’ve tried to, and I mean SUIE together, we’ve tried to, at least for the tuition equity battle, we’ve tried to paint this and make this an education accessibility issue. Not really like a bipartisan, political, us versus them issue, but simply the issue of public education should be accessible. And we’ve gained many, many stakeholders and many supporters that way, the UNC Faculty Council was one great win supporter. They said, yeah, we agree, and these are the representatives of faculty on campus, and they said yeah, we believe UNC should be accessible to all students who get in. I mean, that’s the bottom line, that these undocumented students are smart enough, capable enough, they’re getting into these universities, but it’s an economic limitation implemented by policy that’s not permitting them to do that. So, as a student, I like to paint it as an education equity accessibility issue. As an undocumented person, it’s been an interesting kind of identity personally, because my family is not open about their situation, they’re not happy that I’m open about my situation, they worry about it every day, and I know that it’s the same for every other person that’s openly undocumented. I want to talk about my story, I want to tell my story, because I think, at the end of the day, that’s what people remember. You don’t remember stats, you don’t really remember, oh, this amount of kids don’t get to go to college every year that are undocumented. You remember, oh, this is so-and-so, she’s a whatever major, she’s gone here for so many years, she does this, she’s done undergraduate research, she’s in the honors program, boom-boom-boom. That’s what you remember. So it’s been interesting personally, balancing how public I am about my personal experience in a way that protects my family, but in a way that also pushes the cause forward. It’s been interesting, and I’m sure everyone in that situation is in that kind of dilemma.
HL: Is it different in different situations depending on sort of who you’re speaking with, so if you’re speaking with somebody that’s a state legislator versus someone who is maybe working from a different side of the issue? Do you have to be a different advocate when you work with different communities?
JS: Yeah, I think different stakeholders, usually it comes down to either the economic, factual, rational argument, or the humanitarian, emotional side. And those are the two roles that I think every advocate has to play, but personally I’ve found that when I’m speaking to members of the Board of Governors, the Board of Trustees-not that they’re not there to cater to human rights and all of that, but they want to see the facts, they want to see the numbers, they want to-I wouldn’t sit there with them in a meeting and tell them, oh, you know, this is my story, this is my life dream to come to Carolina. And I mean, I could , and sometimes I do as part of an introduction, but the bulk of the conversation and the bulk of my pitch is going to be, this is the revenue that undocumented students could bring to the economy, were they to receive a diploma and be allowed to work. You know, undocumented students and immigrants pay taxes. Property taxes they don’t get to opt out of, and a lot of them pay income taxes as well, without receiving the benefits. And you know, a lot of these kinds of arguments, they don’t even know that. So usually that kind of rational, logistic argument works better with board members, politicians, something that when people on campus usually-like students groups , when we have events or even the Faculty Council was a great one, or when we pitched at the Campus Y, or for the DTH, those are more telling our stories because we’re relating to other students. And so students can relate to wanting to go to college, to wanting to have equal opportunity, to wanting to go to college. So yeah, on one I’m more the educated advocate and the student, and the other, I’m kind of more, my personal story and how much of an exception I am to the rule of most people who are not able to make it here.
HL: Talking about your family’s concerns, so, looking at the immigrant community as a stakeholder group, do you feel like you have to do advocacy work sort of within the community as well, in terms of getting people to be involved, to share their stories, to want to do to do this kind of a thing? What is that like, working with the people that this affects?
JS: So, what I’ve found is that coming out, you know, we call it coming out, there isn’t anything else to call it, is a very, very personal thing. And so there really isn’t an advocacy space out there to advocate for other people to come out with their stories, because if they come out when they’re not ready, it’ll be really, really difficult for them to deal with. You have to be ready for the backlash from your family, you have to be ready for all the people looking at you like you’re a martian. You have to be ready for what that entails, and if you’re not ready, it won’t work. So, it’s a very personal decision to do that. But working with the immigrant community, unfortunately, there’s still a lot of fear, and getting–I remember, last semester, we did a DACA seminar. So, Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals is a policy that just passed, well not just passed, I guess it’s been a year and a half now, but this was kind of a temporary asylum from deportation for undocumented students ages fifteen to thirty. It was an Executive Order, kind of like Obama’s relief because of all the pressure he had been getting for any sort of immigration reform, which, you know, an actual immigration reform bill didn’t go anywhere in the House. So there were a lot of technicalities involved with this process, and it was available to a lot of undocumented immigrants out there, and so we wanted to have a seminar with attorneys present, to invite the community, and show them how this had to be done because you needed to submit so much documentation, proving your residence, proving that you’re a good person and everything, and then you also had to pay a $475 fee, which is a lot of money to some people, especially undocumented immigrants. So we had this seminar with all of the resources, and we barely had a show of the immigrant community. And it was a two day event, and on the first day, we kept asking people that did come, and we said, why-because we advertised broadly, in different churches, in safe spaces, and we were like, why are you here, why aren’t people coming? And they kept saying, well, you brought an attorney. You know, you brought an attorney, we thought there were going to be cops, we thought–there’s just a lot of fear with any help offered. There’s not really a trust relationship. So I think the work that needs to be done within the immigrant community is showing them, you know, there’s really nothing to fear, especially when it’s resources, but there’s a lot of fear around working with this issue. The next day we had more people show up, because you know, we were like, it’s just us! So it’s really cool and you know, they were having legal counseling for free, which a lot of them wouldn’t even know how to go about finding those resources, so, we had a lot more come the next day, so that was good. So, yeah, a lot of fear in the immigrant community, especially to push them to work in advocacy, I think it’s-we have a long way to go in that.
HL: What do you think it will take to get more people to be willing to be involved, not even to the extent of coming out if they’re undocumented, but just wanting to be involved and wanting to participate in that way, in North Carolina in particular, and what you’ve seen?
JS: Yeah, I think it’s a big generational gap, first of all. So you have the parents, who are exposed to discrimination in the workplace, who, I mean, are paid awful salaries, it’s really difficult to envision them having hope for the situation, based on their day-to-day lives. So I think the tightening of policies in North Carolina is what has pushed this new generation, because it’s a younger generation, of undocumented immigrants that are advocating openly and rallying and having “undocugraduations” at the General Assembly and things like that. It’s the new generation that’s saying you know what, we’re fed up, we deserve better, and right now we can’t drive, we can’t work, we can’t do anything, and you claim we’re not members, we’re not involved in the economic society, and we can’t take part as Americans, but you’re literally not letting us do anything. We’d like to, but we can’t. So, I’m not saying that tightening the policies was a good thing, that making them worse was a good thing, but it is what has pushed a response. In fact, when DACA came out, under DACA, it was required to give licenses to undocumented people as a part of DACA. And North Carolina was the only state that refused to do so. And that was one of the biggest unanimous pushes that North Carolina ever saw from the undocumented community. And this was everyone, because, it’s fifteen to thirty, so it also included some adults, parents, and they were like, absolutely not. And their allies rose, and there were rallies, there were protests, and finally North Carolina said ok, fine, we’ll do it, but we’ll give you a fuchsia mark on your licenses, so that everyone knows you’re undocumented. And then that was even worse, that pissed off not only undocumented people, not only their allies, but anyone who’s ever been a minority, who was like you know, that’s like the new Star of David. That’s what people were calling it. They were infuriated. And that’s really what hit a chord with every minority in North Carolina, and fortunately that ended up not happening. They ended up giving licenses – it still says on there, legal presence, no lawful status, but it at least it doesn’t have a huge fuchsia mark that says, you know, your expiration date of being in the country or something like that. It was ridiculous. So–I think that people are fed up, and I think that it’s escalating. I think there was a really big momentum when the immigration reform bill was in the House, was in the Senate, that’s when most things started kind of appearing all across the country, most movements. But to be honest, what I think it’s going to take is a unifying leader under this movement. When you think of any movement that was ever successful, especially nationally with, rights related, human rights related, you really need a leader or a group of leaders, and the immigration movement has been very scattered, not only in North Carolina but across the country, because there is no-not one person or not one group of people that is willing to come out there and say, you know, we’re out here standing for this cause, and everyone–today’s going to be national undocumented immigrant day, let’s boycott. No-no one’s working on the farms today, things like that. It’s just a lot of risk, that there’s too much fear to take right now.
HL: Can you talk about over the past couple of years, in North Carolina specifically, some of this tightening that has happened, things that you’ve seen, how has it changed interactions and relationships within the advocacy community? Are there different groups of people that you work with more, are there different groups of people that care about different issues? How is it – how has sort of the political change, I guess, in North Carolina affected what it means to do advocacy?
JS: Yeah, no, that’s a great question. So I would say when we first started we worked more, as I said, very, very locally. Within campus, we worked with the Chancellor, we worked with other student groups, we worked with local Chapel Hill-Carrboro groups, thinking that the change could come from the inside out. There was no hope policy-wise at the time. You know, three years ago, it was kind of like the lowest of the low. As far as policy goes. And you know, we were thinking, if we could get one powerful voice to be public about this, it’s going to have to-as I said, some sort of leader is going to have to spring other people that already support this issue, and we found that really these kind of public figures, such as the Chancellor, or even the Board of Trustees, were mostly just that, public figures, and actually they couldn’t make policy change on campus as far as tuition equity. Now, it’s become more of a lobbying issue. Which is not my favorite part of advocacy-I find politics enraging. But now it’s become more about finding Democrat and Republican supporters, you know, representatives that support this issue, drafting a bill together. We’re in the process of doing that, and, I mean, so many bills have been drafted, so many bills have been introduced, but now it’s more about getting representative support in North Carolina so that we can get a big enough group to introduce some sort of bill, to have some sort of compromise, and starting from anywhere, you know, I believe we’re okay with providing tuition equity only for DACA recipients at first, and then trying to expand that, and then trying to expand that. I mean, the policy history in North Carolina has just been from bad to worse for undocumented students since I’ve lived here. It’s just increasingly just gotten worse. And that, I mean, that just pushed us to look elsewhere and do more grassroots and stuff, and then, with the levels of deportations that are happening, now it’s become more of a lobbying, representatives, behind the scenes work. To try and actually get some solid policy change.
HL: How would you say that that your interactions with sort of the people involved with policy change have shifted over the past couple years, or shifted in response to things that are happening on the national level, if they have? Or if it’s kind of felt the same for the past couple of years.
JS: Well, I would say DACA was a big game-changer. Even though it’s not a temporary-I mean, it’s not a permanent policy, there were a lot of different things that we considered because of DACA. We talked to a lot of attorneys, we talked to a lot of professors, and kind of seeing how that would affect, as far as the tuition equity issue-and the thing is that it comes down to all these technicalities, but because a DACA recipient is federally recognized as a resident, legally, there could be certain things that could be pushed for that. So, but apparently, it’s also–they’re not recognized as domicile holders within the state, and so then it’s kind of like, they’re pushing but–within the community college system, it’s been-they’ve actually allowed DACA students to have in-state tuition, which is awesome. And so DACA was a new kind of thing where we started trying to see what legal path we could take now that they have some sort of legal presence. And that was kind of a new technique that we’re using. It’s about to be renewed, the renewal kind of logistics and steps just came out, and it’s very obscure how they’re going to renew this, and in very fine print they say that you have to renew it four months before it expires, which a lot of people will not know about, and there has to be a big publicity push about it. So the only groundbreaking federal policy–because North Carolina has not done anything policy related to help–but was DACA, federally. So we catered to that, we paid a lot of attention to that, and we tried to make sure that as many people as we knew, or as many people as we could reach, applied, received it. And because of DACA a lot of people have been able to go to community college, and kind of start that way, so that was a big thing that we were hoping. And now I think the main goal is to maintain DACA, because after President Obama is out of office, it could or it could not stay. It’s up to the next presidents, because it’s an executive issue, to keep it or get rid of it. So now the big push is kind of getting voters, and getting awareness out that this is being removed in the election next year, but now, how to keep it alive.
HL: As a-sort of wearing your student advocate, I guess, your student advocate hat, what is your goal for this work? What are you pushing it for? Is it to raise awareness, is it to change policy, is it to help people access resources, and has that changed at all?
JS: I would say, like, the journey, when I started, I was not very knowledgeable about what was going on, and really it wasn’t–there wasn’t much policy-wise going on. So when I started my goal was advocacy, because if it meant that if I can change someone’s mind about their opinion about this issue, they’re likely to go talk to someone else about it, and they’re likely to go talk to someone else about it, and that’s-that’s how you change people’s minds.
HL: So raising awareness advocacy.
JS: Right, that was the beginning of it. When we had the hope that through DACA there could be tuition equity, it was more of a policy-you know, equity was what we worked towards. So it has definitely changed. My goal now, I would say, would be to find new leadership for SUIE to continue, I think they do the best work that they can, with the scholarship, the SUIE scholarship, you know, we’ve had a student go to NC State, and a student go to UNC Greensboro. And at the end of the day, with how grim policy looks, changing one person’s lives is like, the best we could do, and the most rewarding. So the scholarship has been a big thing. We’re currently working with UNC faculty to establish an institutional scholarship, one that’s fully funded, yearly, so, at the end of the day I think the immediate goal right now is to get undocumented students to Carolina. To make Carolina accessible for students. Because at the end of the day, these are the students that are going to be public policy minors, or majors, poli sci majors that come out and work in the legislature, and make the change, but they’re the ones who’s stories matter. Dually working with representatives and doing what we can there, but I can personally make more change within my time with one student at a time, two students at a time, and it really-it’s what makes all the difference, I think.
HL: Are there relationships that you have had as a student advocate, or partnerships, that you think student advocates can have that are really important, and are there ones that you think that are missing to do the kind of work that you all want to do?
JS: Can you specify relationships? What do you mean?
HL: People that you would work with, so like, as allies or in terms of relationships with people at the university, in the legislature, students in other states, I don’t know.
JS: Yeah.
HL: So other stakeholders broadly that you think it’s been really important that you work with, or that you didn’t work with, and that you wish you did.
JS: I think it’s been really important to work with-obviously, campus stakeholders, because we’ve been pushing so much for accessibility here on this campus. And since-especially since we went really broad with awareness, broader with policy, and then we’ve ended up just coming right back home, and make–focusing, at least making this tiny world of Carolina accessible and knowledgeable about immigration in general. Working with campus stakeholders has been really important, working with other undocumented student organizations across the state that can kind of bring that knowledge here, or vice versa, has been incredibly important. I’ve learned so much from them. And, yeah, really thankful for them, and working with attorneys, immigration attorneys that do amazing work for, essentially free, working deportation cases where they know they will get no money, but they do it because they believe it’s the right thing to do. They’ve been great because it’s become such a–I never knew I’d be so involved in the ins and outs of policies, and kind of understanding what that’s going to mean, so they were huge in advocacy. Really to be informed in every facet is the most important thing. I’d say the thing that–what’s missed, what’s been missing for me, has been probably interconnectedness across the state and across other states. It would have been great to have been coordinating through larger spaces of–larger groups of people, and outside of the state and say, in Georgia, Alabama, and North Carolina today, this is going to happen at the same time. So not really enough leaders out there that are public, and contact us, kind of networking throughout. But that’s kind of getting started now through the One State, One Rate campaign, we have a few other campuses that have joined, but definitely branching out if it’s such a big cause–and it’s the same in any advocacy, you don’t – you want to coordinate with other people. It makes it more powerful that way.
HL: Yeah, absolutely. You’ve talked about some of the different challenges in doing this work. Were there any that were really unexpected, you know, if you could give yourself several years ago a heads up when you started doing this that, hey, this is going to be really hard or this is going to be really difficult, what-what would you say?
JS: Unfortunately, some of the most unexpected issues in advocacy became egos within the larger groups. There’s a lot of wonderful groups that do a lot of wonderful work across the state, and you know, some people have been at it way longer than others, and because of that some people felt entitled to certain things than others. You know, when some event gets more media than another event and you’re coordinating with groups across the state, it was real-a very unexpected kind of struggle that I personally have never wanted to deal with. And yeah, that was really unexpected, so I think to my early self, be more diplomatic, be more-coordinate well, and really don’t pay mind to people who aren’t in it for the cause, but who are in it for other reasons.
HL: Do you see that from any particular kind–do you see it from students, do you see it from people who work in non-profits, do you see it from everyone?
JS: I mean, I haven’t really seen it from students. [pause] Yeah, I mean, it was a little bit of–it was a little bit of everything, I mean, in different instances it was different people. I mean, there were non-profits, just general statewide organizations that work with this, and then, we were kind of like the little campus group that was doing work and so [pause] yeah, I mean, I really believe that any and any, all and any events are things that are bringing attention to this issue in North Carolina under the right light deserve all the praises. It’s not really about a person or a name. And that was one thing that I wasn’t–you know, the politics. People are involved in advocacy and people will not always think alike as to how things have to be done, so I really thought it was just like, everyone was one hundred–my naïve self thought it was cool, on the same page, moving forward on the same road. And it’s not really, you know, with bad intentions, when there are misunderstandings, but I didn’t think much about the group aspect of working outside of my own little campus group. We’re kind of like a little family, we’ve always been working fine and great, but yeah.
HL: What do you think, having done this for a while and sort of graduating now, and leaving SUIE to other people, what will you tell them about their role? What do you think is the role that student advocates should be playing in the space of immigrant advocacy in North Carolina?
JS: I think advocacy and raising awareness is always going to continue, it’s always going to be a main thing, and that’s always something that they should focus on. I–we actually just chose our new co-chairs for next year, which is exciting, and they’re both first-year and second year, and these students-neither of them are immigrants even, not that you need to be, but, they’re so passionate, so into the work. All I’m going to tell them is keep raising awareness, you know, every person that you talk to and change their minds about this issue is a win for the day. And working with the people that are involved in the issue that are undocumented is incredibly important. Learning. I just think, when I got into this, I knew nothing. I knew negative of nothing. And not that I know enough now, but I learned as I went along, you just go, and you jump in, and you delve in, and you ask the questions, even if you don’t know anything about it, you learn from the people that you meet. And there’s a lot of great people out there doing work, but don’t-don’t be afraid to just ask, and get to know, get to know how to do a better job, and learn, stay open, yeah. Working in a group is always-you just have to be transparent, and–especially with immigration advocacy, there’s so much controversy, you know, some people are calling it the new civil rights movement, and it’s neck in neck with marriage equality and all of that and both issues, you know, even finding a way to link both issues and help each other move forward, although I think probably immigration is-has way more to go, a longer way to go than marriage equality. Marriage equality is getting a little wind, which is exciting. But, but yeah. The future will tell, I don’t know.
HL: My last question, what are you going to do now, now that you’re leaving university? How do you stay involved, how do you think your involvement in advocacy is going to stay the same or change?
JS: Yeah, I’ve been thinking about that a lot, actually. Because my, you know, what I study is completely unrelated. You know, a biology major is nothing to do with immigration. And the thing is, immigration advocacy and work has never been something that I did for a degree or for money, obviously. So I don’t think it will be difficult to find ways to stay involved. And the friendships that I’ve made and the people that I’ve met that are incredibly passionate about this issue, I will never lose. So, I think probably right after graduation, I should focus on my career for a little bit, but you know, if they ever need me for anything, I’ll be right in, or if I ever–you know, policy changes, and things need to be done, I’ll jump right in. There’s always organizing to be done, there’s always new things happening in advocacy, that’s just how it is. And I think once you meet the people that are involved, you’re always in the loop, so, I would like to stay involved-I’ve never been [pause], yeah, I’ve never been passionate about something this way. So I hope I stay involved and do the work that I can. And who knows, I mean, I would not be opposed to working in lobbying. I’ve never taken a class in that, but if it helps the issue moving forward, and especially-I mean, not especially but it personally affects me. I’m really curious as to how my future is going to fold out. I would like to stay in the United States of America [pause] beautiful place, so I’ll have to see how all that pans out. There’s never a certainty in–in this issue. Yeah.
HL: Cool. Thanks so much for taking the time.
JS: Thank you.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Estudiantes; Activistas por la justicia social
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Jane Smith (pseudónimo) habla sobre su participación en asuntos relacionados a migración y el panorama más amplio del trabajo de los activistas estudiantiles en el área de inmigración en Carolina del Norte. Ella comparte historias de su trabajo con Estudiantes Unidos por la Igualdad de los Inmigrantes (SUIE, por sus siglas en inglés) en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill y sus observaciones de las dificultades de trabajar con la población indocumentada en Carolina del Norte. En particular, ella encuentra que la falta de un liderazgo central es un reto, y ella discute cómo los diferentes sectores interesados en el tema en el estado pudieran trabajar más efectivamente juntos. Desde su perspectiva, el panorama de activismo en Carolina del Norte se ha transformado en los años recientes, de un trabajo exclusivamente de concientización y defensa, a incluir un enfoque en las políticas, en vista de las políticas federales como la orden ejectiva de Acción Diferida (DACA, por sus siglas en inglés). La abogacía también ha cambiado, ya que cada vez más estudiantes indocumentados se están abriendo acerca de su estatus migratorio y han decidido abogar por sí mismos; esto, sin embargo, a veces crea tensión cuando cuestiona el rol de los diferentes aliados en el movimiento.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Jane Smith, pseud., por Hetali Lodaya, 01 Abril 2014, R-0698, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Activismo; Ciudadanía e inmigración; Educación; Comunidades receptoras; Movimiento de jóvenes 'Soñadores' y Acción Diferida
Es: Transcripción
Hetali Lodaya: This is Hetali Lodaya. I’m interviewing Jane, which is a pseudonym, on April 1st, 2014, on the 2nd floor of the Campus Y at UNC-Chapel Hill. So let’s just start with some background. Can you talk about where you’re from and how long you’ve been in North Carolina?
Jane Smith: Yes. I was born in Peru, I lived there until I was about nine or so, moved to the US in 2000 [pause] 2001, about? It was a long time ago, but I’ve been in North Carolina since, I’ve been in North Carolina for eight years now. So, the longest I’ve ever been anywhere.
HL: Can you give a little bit of background on your family that’s here in North Carolina, and that’s maybe still in other places?
JS: Yeah, so my immediate family lives in North Carolina, my parents, my siblings, but the rest of my family, uncles, aunts, cousins, all live back in Peru.
HL: And, just sort of describing your involvement in advocacy work, can you give a little background on where it began, and what kinds of things you’ve been involved in?
JS: Right, so, I’m undocumented, which for years I didn’t think really meant anything. I guess when you’re younger, when you’re a child, your parents are exposed to the bulk of what that situation means and I was really privileged at how my parents handled the situation. Working three jobs a day, and never really acting any different at home, still being great parents. I went to public school, it was all normal. And I guess it really kind of hit me when I turned, what was it, fourteen, fifteen, and I had to get a permit and I was able to get my permit, but by the time I got my permit, my driving permit, North Carolina legislation had changed to where you needed a social security number to get anything driving-related. So I could not get a license, and the rest of my peers got a license, and that was really the first time that the situation kind of hit me personally. It struck me as incredibly unfair, and after so many years of not being exposed to it at all, I really didn’t know what to make of it, so it was more of a confusion time. Then coming to college was I guess the next big step that really kind of differentiated me from everyone else that I had become friends with in my lifetime in North Carolina. It’s easy as the fact that everyone would be applying freely and applying to financial aid or whatever, whatever way they could afford to go to school, and those options were just not available to me. When I was, what was it, like eighteen, I was faced with the decision in which I’d gotten into all the schools that I’d applied for, but I simply could not pay for any of them. So I was faced with the decision of okay, right now, do I leave the country? Because I will go to college, whether it’s here or Peru or wherever. So, do I leave the country and face not seeing my family for ten years, because of the ten year bar, or do I stay here and, I guess, try to get some sort of job and try to pay my way through community college. And then miraculously, I was able to get a scholarship, a private scholarship, that covered my attendance at Carolina. And I felt like that was a sign. I felt like I’d been really confused and kind of useless, and the bigger picture of what this immigration debacle is in the United States [pause], and I felt like coming here meant, you’ve got to do something with this, more than just go to class. So I guess that’s kind of what pushed me to seek out, especially in the Chapel Hill area, what was currently being done with students like me. I actually had another friend who was undocumented, and he was openly undocumented, and that to me was a completely foreign, new concept. I met him my first year, is when I met him. He had gone to State and had dropped out because he couldn’t afford it, and he told me, you know, there’s actually this organization at Carolina, and they work with immigration advocacy on campus, and you should go to their meetings, they meet this time, and he didn’t even go to Carolina. And I was like, ok, yeah, yeah, you know, I’ll go. And that’s how I got involved with SUIE first, so yeah, I guess that’s background, kind of how it all started.
HL: And can you describe what kinds of work you did, you’ve done, with SUIE?
JS: Right, so, SUIE is Students United for Immigrant Equality here on campus, and when I joined, we were about two years old. Very new organization, and the way immigration work is done in North Carolina, you have obviously a lot of levels, like lobbying, anywhere from grassroots to lobbying, to going to DC and trying to figure things out over there, which our other co-chair does. But when we started we were fairly new, so we focused more on doing events on campus that kind of raised awareness about the misconceptions that people have about your day-to-day immigrant, or specifically your day-to-day undocumented immigrant. My first year, it was a year or two after the Trail of Dreams, the walkers from Florida that walked all the way to DC, and that was one of the first instances of having openly undocumented students saying, hey, I’m not a criminal, I’m educated, and I want to be a part of this society, I’ve lived here, I’ve grown up here. So that was kind of the regime change that we were at at that point. Because up until then, I think, immigration work had been a lot of work done by allies, that, they said, you know, we stand for undocumented people and we really believe that they deserve these human rights to education, to health, health insurance, and things like that. But when I joined it was kind of a change of undocumented people themselves coming out and saying, this is who I am, I speak English, I’m here, I’m part of your society. You know, every person knows, directly or indirectly, an undocumented person, there’s 11 million of us out there. So our other co-chair, he was openly undocumented at the time, and it was an interesting dynamic for me personally because I wasn’t, and seeing all of these people come out. So we worked with the Immigrant Youth Forum, a local high school student group from Carrboro, and they’re high school students who are undocumented, and they’re juniors, seniors, and the struggle of trying to transition into college. And they would come and have coming out rallies at the Pit, where they would, you know, with a megaphone, say, hey, my name is so-and-so, I’m this old, and I am Carolina born and bred, but I will not be going here because of this policy, essentially. And we started getting a great response, and people-it was a new way of doing things, people were really kind of taken by it, and we said, hey, you know, we should have a big thing once a semester and see what the interest is in people, and maybe raise funds for a scholarship. And so the year that I joined we did our first Immigration Awareness Week with a big banquet, where we brought Jose Antonio Vargas to speak. He is an undocumented journalist who now is a big advocate, and does amazing work, but we got him before he was famous, so he was cheap. But thanks to him, and thanks to his help and the banquet, we raised money, it was like 1500 dollars, nothing huge, but still could pay for a semester or so of community college. It’s something, anything, could help. So that’s how we started, and from there we’ve continued to do that in the past three years, and we’ve also kind of taken up the tuition equity campaigning battle. We took that from a different aspect, we would meet with stakeholders on campus. We really believed that Carolina, specifically being the flagship school of public education, should be accessible to everyone, if nowhere else in North Carolina. And you try to approach it through the chancellor, and through stakeholders, and it was a battle. It still is, but we launched the One State, One Rate campaign, which gained public-public attention, because nothing like that had come out from Carolina before. And it was during this time that I came out also as undocumented. That–you know, I think it helped, and I hope it helped, and I, since then I’ve been openly okay with talking about it, and I think it really does change the perspectives when you meet someone that is undocumented. So we’ve been working with the One State, One Rate campaign, since it has spread out to NC State, UNC-Charlotte, and UNC-Asheville. They’re doing kind of local work through the campaign on their campuses, but the idea is that if we spark enough ruckus in enough campuses, then the decision making will be kind of pushed by educators. We want to make this an education issue, though the One State, One Rate campaign, so tuition equity has kind of been our focus lately.
HL: I remember being there at one of those rallies in the pit, it was really special. Talking about that change in how advocacy work is done, shifting from allies to the students and the people themselves doing that advocacy, can you talk about how those two pieces of who you are, the fact that you’re a student and the fact that you’re an undocumented student, how do you think they affect your interactions with all of these stakeholders? With legislators, people in the university?
JS: Interestingly enough, there’s upsides and downsides of being any player in advocacy work. If you are an ally, who is pushing for tuition equity, you will have stakeholders who maybe believe you don’t have the credibility to speak on that issue because you’re not undocumented. Then you may have undocumented students themselves, who say, hey, we’re coming out now! We’re here, we have our own voices, don’t speak for us, speak with us. So it’s been an interesting shifting change because it’s created a lot of different mentalities as to how to work together now.
HL: How do you feel about that? Working with, or the role of people that are allies?
JS: Well, it’s been one of my biggest struggles because I was, in my opinion, I was cowardly for a long time. I’m not saying that people who don’t come out as undocumented are all cowards, but I felt that way, and I felt that seeing a fifteen-year-old undocumented high school student come out on a college campus and say, you know, this is my situation, I felt that was admirable, and I felt-that’s, those were the kind of stories that pushed me to come out as well. And I feel like allies are an incredibly important part of the movement. I feel like they are the ones who have the vote, at the end of the day. Not that we depend on them, and I feel like undocumented stories are obviously the core of it, but I’ve definitely experienced some backlash from the undocumented community to the ally community, within the movement. That’s been one of my biggest struggles in working in immigration advocacy in North Carolina, that you have all these allies who’s been at it for years, and yes, they’re not undocumented, but it speaks so highly of them that they spend so much time and they are so passionate about the cause that they’re out there doing what they can, organizing, and so I’m all for allies. I’m all for any and all people who want to move this forward. Because at the end of the day there’s a goal, and I think scattering amongst the ranks isn’t really the way to move forward together, so yeah, I’m all for allies. A lot of my best friends have been my best supporters, and they’re not undocumented.
HL: Yeah, absolutely, and sorry, I kind of side tracked you from the original question, of the pieces of your identity affecting your role in advocacy in the state of North Carolina.
JS: Right, so, as a student [pause] I’ve tried to, and I mean SUIE together, we’ve tried to, at least for the tuition equity battle, we’ve tried to paint this and make this an education accessibility issue. Not really like a bipartisan, political, us versus them issue, but simply the issue of public education should be accessible. And we’ve gained many, many stakeholders and many supporters that way, the UNC Faculty Council was one great win supporter. They said, yeah, we agree, and these are the representatives of faculty on campus, and they said yeah, we believe UNC should be accessible to all students who get in. I mean, that’s the bottom line, that these undocumented students are smart enough, capable enough, they’re getting into these universities, but it’s an economic limitation implemented by policy that’s not permitting them to do that. So, as a student, I like to paint it as an education equity accessibility issue. As an undocumented person, it’s been an interesting kind of identity personally, because my family is not open about their situation, they’re not happy that I’m open about my situation, they worry about it every day, and I know that it’s the same for every other person that’s openly undocumented. I want to talk about my story, I want to tell my story, because I think, at the end of the day, that’s what people remember. You don’t remember stats, you don’t really remember, oh, this amount of kids don’t get to go to college every year that are undocumented. You remember, oh, this is so-and-so, she’s a whatever major, she’s gone here for so many years, she does this, she’s done undergraduate research, she’s in the honors program, boom-boom-boom. That’s what you remember. So it’s been interesting personally, balancing how public I am about my personal experience in a way that protects my family, but in a way that also pushes the cause forward. It’s been interesting, and I’m sure everyone in that situation is in that kind of dilemma.
HL: Is it different in different situations depending on sort of who you’re speaking with, so if you’re speaking with somebody that’s a state legislator versus someone who is maybe working from a different side of the issue? Do you have to be a different advocate when you work with different communities?
JS: Yeah, I think different stakeholders, usually it comes down to either the economic, factual, rational argument, or the humanitarian, emotional side. And those are the two roles that I think every advocate has to play, but personally I’ve found that when I’m speaking to members of the Board of Governors, the Board of Trustees-not that they’re not there to cater to human rights and all of that, but they want to see the facts, they want to see the numbers, they want to-I wouldn’t sit there with them in a meeting and tell them, oh, you know, this is my story, this is my life dream to come to Carolina. And I mean, I could , and sometimes I do as part of an introduction, but the bulk of the conversation and the bulk of my pitch is going to be, this is the revenue that undocumented students could bring to the economy, were they to receive a diploma and be allowed to work. You know, undocumented students and immigrants pay taxes. Property taxes they don’t get to opt out of, and a lot of them pay income taxes as well, without receiving the benefits. And you know, a lot of these kinds of arguments, they don’t even know that. So usually that kind of rational, logistic argument works better with board members, politicians, something that when people on campus usually-like students groups , when we have events or even the Faculty Council was a great one, or when we pitched at the Campus Y, or for the DTH, those are more telling our stories because we’re relating to other students. And so students can relate to wanting to go to college, to wanting to have equal opportunity, to wanting to go to college. So yeah, on one I’m more the educated advocate and the student, and the other, I’m kind of more, my personal story and how much of an exception I am to the rule of most people who are not able to make it here.
HL: Talking about your family’s concerns, so, looking at the immigrant community as a stakeholder group, do you feel like you have to do advocacy work sort of within the community as well, in terms of getting people to be involved, to share their stories, to want to do to do this kind of a thing? What is that like, working with the people that this affects?
JS: So, what I’ve found is that coming out, you know, we call it coming out, there isn’t anything else to call it, is a very, very personal thing. And so there really isn’t an advocacy space out there to advocate for other people to come out with their stories, because if they come out when they’re not ready, it’ll be really, really difficult for them to deal with. You have to be ready for the backlash from your family, you have to be ready for all the people looking at you like you’re a martian. You have to be ready for what that entails, and if you’re not ready, it won’t work. So, it’s a very personal decision to do that. But working with the immigrant community, unfortunately, there’s still a lot of fear, and getting–I remember, last semester, we did a DACA seminar. So, Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals is a policy that just passed, well not just passed, I guess it’s been a year and a half now, but this was kind of a temporary asylum from deportation for undocumented students ages fifteen to thirty. It was an Executive Order, kind of like Obama’s relief because of all the pressure he had been getting for any sort of immigration reform, which, you know, an actual immigration reform bill didn’t go anywhere in the House. So there were a lot of technicalities involved with this process, and it was available to a lot of undocumented immigrants out there, and so we wanted to have a seminar with attorneys present, to invite the community, and show them how this had to be done because you needed to submit so much documentation, proving your residence, proving that you’re a good person and everything, and then you also had to pay a $475 fee, which is a lot of money to some people, especially undocumented immigrants. So we had this seminar with all of the resources, and we barely had a show of the immigrant community. And it was a two day event, and on the first day, we kept asking people that did come, and we said, why-because we advertised broadly, in different churches, in safe spaces, and we were like, why are you here, why aren’t people coming? And they kept saying, well, you brought an attorney. You know, you brought an attorney, we thought there were going to be cops, we thought–there’s just a lot of fear with any help offered. There’s not really a trust relationship. So I think the work that needs to be done within the immigrant community is showing them, you know, there’s really nothing to fear, especially when it’s resources, but there’s a lot of fear around working with this issue. The next day we had more people show up, because you know, we were like, it’s just us! So it’s really cool and you know, they were having legal counseling for free, which a lot of them wouldn’t even know how to go about finding those resources, so, we had a lot more come the next day, so that was good. So, yeah, a lot of fear in the immigrant community, especially to push them to work in advocacy, I think it’s-we have a long way to go in that.
HL: What do you think it will take to get more people to be willing to be involved, not even to the extent of coming out if they’re undocumented, but just wanting to be involved and wanting to participate in that way, in North Carolina in particular, and what you’ve seen?
JS: Yeah, I think it’s a big generational gap, first of all. So you have the parents, who are exposed to discrimination in the workplace, who, I mean, are paid awful salaries, it’s really difficult to envision them having hope for the situation, based on their day-to-day lives. So I think the tightening of policies in North Carolina is what has pushed this new generation, because it’s a younger generation, of undocumented immigrants that are advocating openly and rallying and having “undocugraduations” at the General Assembly and things like that. It’s the new generation that’s saying you know what, we’re fed up, we deserve better, and right now we can’t drive, we can’t work, we can’t do anything, and you claim we’re not members, we’re not involved in the economic society, and we can’t take part as Americans, but you’re literally not letting us do anything. We’d like to, but we can’t. So, I’m not saying that tightening the policies was a good thing, that making them worse was a good thing, but it is what has pushed a response. In fact, when DACA came out, under DACA, it was required to give licenses to undocumented people as a part of DACA. And North Carolina was the only state that refused to do so. And that was one of the biggest unanimous pushes that North Carolina ever saw from the undocumented community. And this was everyone, because, it’s fifteen to thirty, so it also included some adults, parents, and they were like, absolutely not. And their allies rose, and there were rallies, there were protests, and finally North Carolina said ok, fine, we’ll do it, but we’ll give you a fuchsia mark on your licenses, so that everyone knows you’re undocumented. And then that was even worse, that pissed off not only undocumented people, not only their allies, but anyone who’s ever been a minority, who was like you know, that’s like the new Star of David. That’s what people were calling it. They were infuriated. And that’s really what hit a chord with every minority in North Carolina, and fortunately that ended up not happening. They ended up giving licenses – it still says on there, legal presence, no lawful status, but it at least it doesn’t have a huge fuchsia mark that says, you know, your expiration date of being in the country or something like that. It was ridiculous. So–I think that people are fed up, and I think that it’s escalating. I think there was a really big momentum when the immigration reform bill was in the House, was in the Senate, that’s when most things started kind of appearing all across the country, most movements. But to be honest, what I think it’s going to take is a unifying leader under this movement. When you think of any movement that was ever successful, especially nationally with, rights related, human rights related, you really need a leader or a group of leaders, and the immigration movement has been very scattered, not only in North Carolina but across the country, because there is no-not one person or not one group of people that is willing to come out there and say, you know, we’re out here standing for this cause, and everyone–today’s going to be national undocumented immigrant day, let’s boycott. No-no one’s working on the farms today, things like that. It’s just a lot of risk, that there’s too much fear to take right now.
HL: Can you talk about over the past couple of years, in North Carolina specifically, some of this tightening that has happened, things that you’ve seen, how has it changed interactions and relationships within the advocacy community? Are there different groups of people that you work with more, are there different groups of people that care about different issues? How is it – how has sort of the political change, I guess, in North Carolina affected what it means to do advocacy?
JS: Yeah, no, that’s a great question. So I would say when we first started we worked more, as I said, very, very locally. Within campus, we worked with the Chancellor, we worked with other student groups, we worked with local Chapel Hill-Carrboro groups, thinking that the change could come from the inside out. There was no hope policy-wise at the time. You know, three years ago, it was kind of like the lowest of the low. As far as policy goes. And you know, we were thinking, if we could get one powerful voice to be public about this, it’s going to have to-as I said, some sort of leader is going to have to spring other people that already support this issue, and we found that really these kind of public figures, such as the Chancellor, or even the Board of Trustees, were mostly just that, public figures, and actually they couldn’t make policy change on campus as far as tuition equity. Now, it’s become more of a lobbying issue. Which is not my favorite part of advocacy-I find politics enraging. But now it’s become more about finding Democrat and Republican supporters, you know, representatives that support this issue, drafting a bill together. We’re in the process of doing that, and, I mean, so many bills have been drafted, so many bills have been introduced, but now it’s more about getting representative support in North Carolina so that we can get a big enough group to introduce some sort of bill, to have some sort of compromise, and starting from anywhere, you know, I believe we’re okay with providing tuition equity only for DACA recipients at first, and then trying to expand that, and then trying to expand that. I mean, the policy history in North Carolina has just been from bad to worse for undocumented students since I’ve lived here. It’s just increasingly just gotten worse. And that, I mean, that just pushed us to look elsewhere and do more grassroots and stuff, and then, with the levels of deportations that are happening, now it’s become more of a lobbying, representatives, behind the scenes work. To try and actually get some solid policy change.
HL: How would you say that that your interactions with sort of the people involved with policy change have shifted over the past couple years, or shifted in response to things that are happening on the national level, if they have? Or if it’s kind of felt the same for the past couple of years.
JS: Well, I would say DACA was a big game-changer. Even though it’s not a temporary-I mean, it’s not a permanent policy, there were a lot of different things that we considered because of DACA. We talked to a lot of attorneys, we talked to a lot of professors, and kind of seeing how that would affect, as far as the tuition equity issue-and the thing is that it comes down to all these technicalities, but because a DACA recipient is federally recognized as a resident, legally, there could be certain things that could be pushed for that. So, but apparently, it’s also–they’re not recognized as domicile holders within the state, and so then it’s kind of like, they’re pushing but–within the community college system, it’s been-they’ve actually allowed DACA students to have in-state tuition, which is awesome. And so DACA was a new kind of thing where we started trying to see what legal path we could take now that they have some sort of legal presence. And that was kind of a new technique that we’re using. It’s about to be renewed, the renewal kind of logistics and steps just came out, and it’s very obscure how they’re going to renew this, and in very fine print they say that you have to renew it four months before it expires, which a lot of people will not know about, and there has to be a big publicity push about it. So the only groundbreaking federal policy–because North Carolina has not done anything policy related to help–but was DACA, federally. So we catered to that, we paid a lot of attention to that, and we tried to make sure that as many people as we knew, or as many people as we could reach, applied, received it. And because of DACA a lot of people have been able to go to community college, and kind of start that way, so that was a big thing that we were hoping. And now I think the main goal is to maintain DACA, because after President Obama is out of office, it could or it could not stay. It’s up to the next presidents, because it’s an executive issue, to keep it or get rid of it. So now the big push is kind of getting voters, and getting awareness out that this is being removed in the election next year, but now, how to keep it alive.
HL: As a-sort of wearing your student advocate, I guess, your student advocate hat, what is your goal for this work? What are you pushing it for? Is it to raise awareness, is it to change policy, is it to help people access resources, and has that changed at all?
JS: I would say, like, the journey, when I started, I was not very knowledgeable about what was going on, and really it wasn’t–there wasn’t much policy-wise going on. So when I started my goal was advocacy, because if it meant that if I can change someone’s mind about their opinion about this issue, they’re likely to go talk to someone else about it, and they’re likely to go talk to someone else about it, and that’s-that’s how you change people’s minds.
HL: So raising awareness advocacy.
JS: Right, that was the beginning of it. When we had the hope that through DACA there could be tuition equity, it was more of a policy-you know, equity was what we worked towards. So it has definitely changed. My goal now, I would say, would be to find new leadership for SUIE to continue, I think they do the best work that they can, with the scholarship, the SUIE scholarship, you know, we’ve had a student go to NC State, and a student go to UNC Greensboro. And at the end of the day, with how grim policy looks, changing one person’s lives is like, the best we could do, and the most rewarding. So the scholarship has been a big thing. We’re currently working with UNC faculty to establish an institutional scholarship, one that’s fully funded, yearly, so, at the end of the day I think the immediate goal right now is to get undocumented students to Carolina. To make Carolina accessible for students. Because at the end of the day, these are the students that are going to be public policy minors, or majors, poli sci majors that come out and work in the legislature, and make the change, but they’re the ones who’s stories matter. Dually working with representatives and doing what we can there, but I can personally make more change within my time with one student at a time, two students at a time, and it really-it’s what makes all the difference, I think.
HL: Are there relationships that you have had as a student advocate, or partnerships, that you think student advocates can have that are really important, and are there ones that you think that are missing to do the kind of work that you all want to do?
JS: Can you specify relationships? What do you mean?
HL: People that you would work with, so like, as allies or in terms of relationships with people at the university, in the legislature, students in other states, I don’t know.
JS: Yeah.
HL: So other stakeholders broadly that you think it’s been really important that you work with, or that you didn’t work with, and that you wish you did.
JS: I think it’s been really important to work with-obviously, campus stakeholders, because we’ve been pushing so much for accessibility here on this campus. And since-especially since we went really broad with awareness, broader with policy, and then we’ve ended up just coming right back home, and make–focusing, at least making this tiny world of Carolina accessible and knowledgeable about immigration in general. Working with campus stakeholders has been really important, working with other undocumented student organizations across the state that can kind of bring that knowledge here, or vice versa, has been incredibly important. I’ve learned so much from them. And, yeah, really thankful for them, and working with attorneys, immigration attorneys that do amazing work for, essentially free, working deportation cases where they know they will get no money, but they do it because they believe it’s the right thing to do. They’ve been great because it’s become such a–I never knew I’d be so involved in the ins and outs of policies, and kind of understanding what that’s going to mean, so they were huge in advocacy. Really to be informed in every facet is the most important thing. I’d say the thing that–what’s missed, what’s been missing for me, has been probably interconnectedness across the state and across other states. It would have been great to have been coordinating through larger spaces of–larger groups of people, and outside of the state and say, in Georgia, Alabama, and North Carolina today, this is going to happen at the same time. So not really enough leaders out there that are public, and contact us, kind of networking throughout. But that’s kind of getting started now through the One State, One Rate campaign, we have a few other campuses that have joined, but definitely branching out if it’s such a big cause–and it’s the same in any advocacy, you don’t – you want to coordinate with other people. It makes it more powerful that way.
HL: Yeah, absolutely. You’ve talked about some of the different challenges in doing this work. Were there any that were really unexpected, you know, if you could give yourself several years ago a heads up when you started doing this that, hey, this is going to be really hard or this is going to be really difficult, what-what would you say?
JS: Unfortunately, some of the most unexpected issues in advocacy became egos within the larger groups. There’s a lot of wonderful groups that do a lot of wonderful work across the state, and you know, some people have been at it way longer than others, and because of that some people felt entitled to certain things than others. You know, when some event gets more media than another event and you’re coordinating with groups across the state, it was real-a very unexpected kind of struggle that I personally have never wanted to deal with. And yeah, that was really unexpected, so I think to my early self, be more diplomatic, be more-coordinate well, and really don’t pay mind to people who aren’t in it for the cause, but who are in it for other reasons.
HL: Do you see that from any particular kind–do you see it from students, do you see it from people who work in non-profits, do you see it from everyone?
JS: I mean, I haven’t really seen it from students. [pause] Yeah, I mean, it was a little bit of–it was a little bit of everything, I mean, in different instances it was different people. I mean, there were non-profits, just general statewide organizations that work with this, and then, we were kind of like the little campus group that was doing work and so [pause] yeah, I mean, I really believe that any and any, all and any events are things that are bringing attention to this issue in North Carolina under the right light deserve all the praises. It’s not really about a person or a name. And that was one thing that I wasn’t–you know, the politics. People are involved in advocacy and people will not always think alike as to how things have to be done, so I really thought it was just like, everyone was one hundred–my naïve self thought it was cool, on the same page, moving forward on the same road. And it’s not really, you know, with bad intentions, when there are misunderstandings, but I didn’t think much about the group aspect of working outside of my own little campus group. We’re kind of like a little family, we’ve always been working fine and great, but yeah.
HL: What do you think, having done this for a while and sort of graduating now, and leaving SUIE to other people, what will you tell them about their role? What do you think is the role that student advocates should be playing in the space of immigrant advocacy in North Carolina?
JS: I think advocacy and raising awareness is always going to continue, it’s always going to be a main thing, and that’s always something that they should focus on. I–we actually just chose our new co-chairs for next year, which is exciting, and they’re both first-year and second year, and these students-neither of them are immigrants even, not that you need to be, but, they’re so passionate, so into the work. All I’m going to tell them is keep raising awareness, you know, every person that you talk to and change their minds about this issue is a win for the day. And working with the people that are involved in the issue that are undocumented is incredibly important. Learning. I just think, when I got into this, I knew nothing. I knew negative of nothing. And not that I know enough now, but I learned as I went along, you just go, and you jump in, and you delve in, and you ask the questions, even if you don’t know anything about it, you learn from the people that you meet. And there’s a lot of great people out there doing work, but don’t-don’t be afraid to just ask, and get to know, get to know how to do a better job, and learn, stay open, yeah. Working in a group is always-you just have to be transparent, and–especially with immigration advocacy, there’s so much controversy, you know, some people are calling it the new civil rights movement, and it’s neck in neck with marriage equality and all of that and both issues, you know, even finding a way to link both issues and help each other move forward, although I think probably immigration is-has way more to go, a longer way to go than marriage equality. Marriage equality is getting a little wind, which is exciting. But, but yeah. The future will tell, I don’t know.
HL: My last question, what are you going to do now, now that you’re leaving university? How do you stay involved, how do you think your involvement in advocacy is going to stay the same or change?
JS: Yeah, I’ve been thinking about that a lot, actually. Because my, you know, what I study is completely unrelated. You know, a biology major is nothing to do with immigration. And the thing is, immigration advocacy and work has never been something that I did for a degree or for money, obviously. So I don’t think it will be difficult to find ways to stay involved. And the friendships that I’ve made and the people that I’ve met that are incredibly passionate about this issue, I will never lose. So, I think probably right after graduation, I should focus on my career for a little bit, but you know, if they ever need me for anything, I’ll be right in, or if I ever–you know, policy changes, and things need to be done, I’ll jump right in. There’s always organizing to be done, there’s always new things happening in advocacy, that’s just how it is. And I think once you meet the people that are involved, you’re always in the loop, so, I would like to stay involved-I’ve never been [pause], yeah, I’ve never been passionate about something this way. So I hope I stay involved and do the work that I can. And who knows, I mean, I would not be opposed to working in lobbying. I’ve never taken a class in that, but if it helps the issue moving forward, and especially-I mean, not especially but it personally affects me. I’m really curious as to how my future is going to fold out. I would like to stay in the United States of America [pause] beautiful place, so I’ll have to see how all that pans out. There’s never a certainty in–in this issue. Yeah.
HL: Cool. Thanks so much for taking the time.
JS: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-0698 -- Smith, Jane, pseud.
Description
An account of the resource
Jane Smith (pseudonym), speaks about her involvement with issues related to migration, and the broader landscape of student activism work related to immigration in North Carolina. She shares stories from her work with Students United for Immigrant Equality at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and her observations on the challenges of working with the undocumented population in North Carolina. In particular, she finds the lack of central leadership challenging, and discusses how different stakeholders in the state might be able to work more effectively together. From her perspective, the landscape of activism in North Carolina has shifted over the past few years from solely awareness and advocacy work, to include more of a policy focus, in light of federal policies such as Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA). Advocacy has also changed as more and more undocumented students are becoming open about their status and choosing to advocate for themselves; this, however, sometimes creates tension when considering the role of allies in the movement.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
01 April 2014
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
R0698_Audio.mp3
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/20192">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/e9abb80a1d648b5e6d403f37cd21c43a.pdf
97b03e3feddbda7c8191a907b8d37c2b
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0478
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
11 April 2011
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Rico, José.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Students Social justice activists
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1989
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Male
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
San Luis Potosi -- Mexico
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Raleigh -- Wake County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-100.97916666666667 22.1497222),1989,1;POINT(-78.63861111111112 35.7719444),2003,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Eure, Ariel.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Jose Rico is an undocumented student attending community college in Raleigh, North Carolina. He was born in San Luis Potosi, Mexico before moving to Tamaulipas, Mexico when he was three years old. Rico's family moved to Raleigh, North Carolina in 2003, arriving on a tourist visa, but overstayed their visa. Rico became involved with community activism when working on the Reform Immigration for America (RIFA) campaign. In 2010, Rico helped found the North Carolina DREAM Team, a group of immigrant student youth and allies committed to creating an immigrants' rights movement in the state of North Carolina. Rico is an advocate for undocumented students coming out of the shadows and has publicly declared his status on several occasions. In the interview, Rico discusses his family's history of migration and education, highlighting his experiences in the public education system in the United States. Rico also talks about community activism.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Jose Rico by Ariel Eure, 11 April 2011, R-0478, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/15839
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Activism; Citizenship and immigration; DREAMers and DACA; Education; Higher Education
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Ariel Eure: I'm here with Jose Rico, an undocumented student who is an activist and community organizer for North Carolina DREAM Team. Where were you born?
Jose Rico: I was born in Mexico in 1989.
AE: In what state in Mexico?
JR: I was born in San Luis Potosi in Ciudad de Valles, Mexico, in September 3rd 1989 [laughs]
AE: When and why did you come to the United States?
JR: That's a long question I'm going to have to, you might want to put it down. So the reason why I'm here goes back in the mid-nineties when the United States signed its foreign policies. This is just in my case. Back in 1994, 1995 President Clinton signed the North Atlantic Free Trade [sic] Agreement, the NAFTA, with Mexico and Canada, and what that did is it allowed many US companies to settle in the Northern part of Mexico in the northern part by the border, so that they can have cheaper labor. My parents were from the central part of Mexico, from San Luis Potosi, and my dad for the opportunity of having a better life and a job, so he moved to the Northern part of Mexico, in Reynosa, Tamaulipas, which is like twenty minutes from McAllen, Texas. So that's where I grew up. We moved when I was three years old to that part of Mexico and my dad went to college there, he became an engineer and he was working there. I believe that I was really privileged, still, even though I'm undocumented. We were able to attain tourist visas so we were able to come back and forth. Well, before 2003 when my dad was laid off by [sic] that U.S. company. The reason why he was laid off was because that those companies were moving away from Mexico. They were looking for even cheaper labor purposes outside of Mexico to Southeast Asia, like China and all of these countries that today we see has emerging powers. So that's why my dad, you know my dad didn't have a job, my dad was looking for a better opportunity for me and for my family so that's why we moved here. We entered legally with tourist visas, and that's basically why my parents decided to move here. I personally didn't want to move here. I had a life in Mexico I was in the secundaria, which is middle school, seventh grade, and I was doing really good. When we came here we were visiting my aunt in Raleigh, North Carolina. We got here on June 23rd of 2003.1 thought that we were going for vacation. I thought that we were coming for a visit. I didn't know it would become a stay. My mom was the one who convinced me to stay. She knew that I liked a lot to go swimming, to go to the pool, and where we lived in the apartment complex we had two. So, we didn't have to pay to go to the pool like in Mexico. I really liked that. Besides, the school in Mexico was a week after the school beginning here so I was like, I'm going to try it, why not? I tried it the first day; I didn't like it at all. I wanted to go back, I told my mom I wanted to go back but that's why she convinced me with the pool. To this day I don't regret my parents ever moving here, bringing me here, because they wanted a better opportunity for me education-wise and to have food on the table for us. So that's what anyone, any parent will do if they're faced with those situations where they have to provide for their family. I love my parents. I will never regret it, that's what they did. I am not going to judge them. If someone wants to put out a finger to them, they should put out to the foreign policies that made them move in the first place. But that's just in my case. There are many people who moved for different reasons, similar, but different. I hope that answered the question for why I'm here, [laughs]
AE: Yes. How far did your parents go in school?
JR: My dad, he had some college. He had a semester to go before graduating. He didn't graduate but he still gained a title as an engineer because he was working with people, you know with engineers. He learned everything that he had to; he was just a semester from graduating college and getting that piece of paper that said he was an engineer. My mom, I admire also a lot my mom because she actually finished her G.E.D. here in the United States and she did it all by herself, [mumble] She went to school by herself and preparing, even asking me questions about math and all that. I was really happy when she got her G.E.D. in 2004. That was a year after we moved here.
AE: How do you parents feel about the importance of education in your life and in their lives?
JR: The importance of what?
AE: The importance of education.
JR: Education. I think both of my parents they cherish education a lot. My dad, he went to college but he wasn't able to graduate, my mom, getting her G.E.D. here, learning English both of them, that's something that in itself tells that they cherish education. Also, the fact that they are supporting me, right now that I'm going to college, to community college, paying out-of-state tuition. They are helping me with tuition, with housing, for me that tells me that they value education. They want me to succeed and they want me to have the life that they weren't able to attain, to have the opportunities they weren't able to attain. That's why I'm here and that's why I'm trying so hard to have education myself.
AE: Did you speak any English when you came to the United States?
JR: I didn't know a lot of English. I knew a little bit because as I said I felt very privileged back in Mexico. My parents were hardworking people so I was privileged to be able to attend a private school and be able to learn English. We were also living on the border between Mexico and the U.S. so I was pretty much I knew the culture, But it was still tough to learn the language and be fluent. The only words I was able to understand were like "how are you" or "what's your name". Aside from that I didn't know that much. So no, not that much.
AE: When you started attending school in the United States were you offered English as a Second Language classes?
JR: Yes, and for that I can also say that I'm privileged, because I coming here, I had the opportunity that there was an ESL program offered at the middle school that I had, that I went to. But if you go back, five years even, a little bit back before the 2000s, there were still a lot of schools that didn't offer ESL. I know from different people, different friends that I have, that I know, that wasn't the case, that there was [sic] only them and no ESL. They were by themselves. But I did have ESL and I had it in my first period class on the first day that I had a U.S. school ever.
AE: Where would you say the majority of the people in your ESL class were from in high school?
JR: Well the high school, I can talk about the middle school, because in middle school that's when I had ESL. I think we were really diverse. We had people from Mexico of course, but we also had from El Salvador, from Guatemala, from Japan, from Vietnam, and from Africa also. They spoke French, that's when I learned a little bit of French from them. It was a really diverse ESL class.
AE: Do you think that ESL helped you in middle school or do you think that it kept you a little isolated from the rest of your schoolmates?
JR: For me, I think it helped me. It helped me a lot. But I did see [sic] that the ESL program, it has a lot of flaws. I had to go and talk to my ESL teacher that I didn't want to have ESL anymore because I told myself that I know enough English to be able to go to the other classes with the regular people with the regular students, the regular class. I had to do that to be able to get out of ESL. I think that there were a lot of students that didn't have that kind of determination or the courage to go and talk to their teacher. I'm okay, I don't need ESL, I don't want ESL anymore. I can do it, I wanted to do it by myself. I wanted to challenge myself. There are people who become complacent maybe. That's what I see. They also give you a test and I don't think that's really accurate, I'll say. But that's just my perspective; things might have changed by now since I graduated in 2008 and I didn't have ESL until, I mean I still had ESL until 2004, 2005. So that was a long time ago, it was like six years ago. [laughs]
AE: What were the most difficult subjects for you when you first came to the United States?
JR: The first day of school and I can tell you the first day of school it was social studies and a little bit of science because we had to read. But social studies was the hardest class that I had on that first day of school and that first semester of school in the United States back in middle school. Because we had to read and we had to understand a lot of things in English. I remember that the first test that I had the teacher allowed me to answer the questions in Spanish. I understood the question but how can I elaborate and do it in English, it was really really new and I was learning. I'll say that social studies was the - and I didn't have English yet. I'll say that English and social studies would be the hardest ones if you're learning a new language.
AE: Did you get good grades in high school?
JR: I did, I did get good grades in high school. I don't want to brag about it. I did. I had a semester of ESL in high school which that's when I had to talk to my teacher like I don't want ESL anymore. I went straight to the regular classes. Then I took Honors classes. Then I took AP classes since I was a junior. I think if I had known English before, a little bit before, I could have taken even more Honors classes and AP classes. That probably hindered a little bit my G.P.A. I ended up with a 3.99998 G.P.A. [laughs] so I did have good grades.
AE: Were there any teachers in your middle school or your high school that knew about your status?
JR: [pause] Yes. There was this teacher in middle school I guess that, the teachers that knew about my status, were the ones that I didn't tell them. Well yeah, kind of throughout the years. In middle school my ESL teacher was the one that I told, well I didn't specifically tell her but with the conversation that I wanted to go to college, I didn't tell her specifically, she told me like even if you don't have documents you can still go to school. She took me to the first back in 2004, she took me to this summit for education that the North Carolina Hispanic Professionals sponsors each year. That's their thing for scholarships and all. I was invited by this teacher and she told me that. Back in high school the teacher that I also told was my Spanish teacher, I took AP Spanish literature and she, it was in the eleventh grade and I was talking about college, and she told me like you should apply for Harvard. She was like I don't want to ask this [mumbles] question but if you don't have the [mumbles] documents to apply and because it's one of the Ivy League schools and it's a private school, they may be able to offer you more help. But those were the teachers I didn't specifically tell [sic] those were the ones that pushed me because they wanted me to be better. This wasn't a teacher this was an advisor that I told, and I specifically told her because I wanted to go to school. It was my advisor in high school, I was in the twelfth grade, my senior year, first semester and I told her you know what are the possibilities of a student with a at the time had a 3.8 G.P.A., of a 3.8 student to go to school? She told me there were many because I was a Latino student, I was a minority, so I had a lot of opportunities. But then I also asked her what about the possibilities for an undocumented student to go to school, to go to college? She said that there were minimal opportunities because of their status, but she said, Jose you're not in that situation. At that moment I chose to come out of the shadows and say I'm undocumented or to remain in the shadows and be complacent probably not even go to community college. So I decided to tell her yes, I am one of those students. What can I do? I want to go to school. I have the grades; you already said that, I have the grades. She couldn't give me any feedback. She shook her head and just couldn't say anything because she wasn't prepared. That's the person that I told.
AE: Did you find it hard to stay motivated in high school?
JR.: When I was in high school, no. I was really involved in community service, I helped create, co-found the first Latino club in my school, the [mumbles] service club, and I was giving service to my school by translating with the advisors in the advising office for students that didn't understand [sic] the language. I gave a lot of service with my school. I also had a lot of classes, AP classes, and that's what motivated me to go through high school.
AE: How did you feel on the day of your graduation?
JR.: [pause] I was really excited because I was going to a new stage of my life. I knew that the next stage was college. I had applied to seven universities; out of them to [sic] six of them I was accepted. I was still really excited I was like, yes I have attained it, I have a high school diploma. My parents brought me here because they wanted that opportunity. My parents threw me a party after the ceremony in the house with my family so I felt really excited. But at the same time, you know in the back of my mind, what am I going to do next? I know that I couldn't pay for school even though I was accepted to many of them. I kind of knew I was going to be going to community college all along because of my situation. But I wanted to put it aside to have that hopeful thought of what if I'm given the opportunity to go to a four year college? Because I always had that dream that I want to experience what is it like to live in a dorm with a bunch of students and just having your own life? To have a normal life? I guess at the end it was sad. That night I was like I have to keep trying. So I guess I was really hopeful that day of my graduation. I was happy and hopeful. I got all of these, what is it called? Honors and all of these certifications from my school and the National Honor Society, and the service club, for giving service to the school which only like ten students in the whole school are given to. I feel really proud and happy and hopeful.
AE: Could you elaborate on why you had to go to community college instead of a four year university?
JR: Yes, I can. I applied to as I said to seven colleges and also private schools. They did offer me money, but it wasn't enough to pay. Like one of them gave me like two thousand dollars but it was like a hundred thousand dollar school. I didn't have the money to pay them the rest. I needed my family, I knew that. Mainly because of the money I wasn't able to. As you know undocumented students cannot apply for the FAFSA so they cannot have any federal financial aid or state financial aid. They only thing that you have is just private funding. So when I had that private funding I was able to attain a private scholarship which covered my first year of community college, which was like two thousand dollars, paying out-of-state tuition by the way. But still, I was able to do that much. But I really frustrated why you know, working so hard, taking all of those classes and at the end it didn't pay off as much as I was expecting to. That was very frustrating [sic] to the point that I didn't want to, you know what am I going to do? Someday I'm going to run out of money and I don't know what I'm going to do next. Does that answer the question I can go on, but I just want to answer the question [laughs]
AE: Yes, you answered it. What would you say the various obstacles are that undocumented students face when trying to go to college?
JR: [pause] Undocumented students or any students?
AE: Yes.
JR: For undocumented students first of all, you don't know the system. You have to learn how the system works. Even within school you have to find out how to even get your advisors to send your transcript to the school that you want to go to. And I guess an emphasis in and that's for the schools that have to emphasis in the fact that you have to apply for school. Be thinking about it in your eleventh grade tenth grade that you're going to be doing that in your last year of high school, something that would have helped me a lot. But still I was able to learn that the hard way I guess applying for schools. And also many of the students don't know like I applied to seven of them and I was, you have to apply for them and you have to pay for the application. Some people don't know if you have a reduced lunch in high school you are allowed to have four of those applications waived by the school. That's something that many students do not know. That's another obstacle that you can see there. Also, knowing how to apply. It's hard to go and apply and do a bunch of essays then asking your teachers for letters of recommendation and then it's that FAFSA form which for undocumented students it's really hard because the first thing that they ask on that first page is your social security number and you don't have it. People like me, I didn't know what that was. So I went and asked my mom, mom can you give me the number because I want to apply for school and to find out that I didn't have it. That's what it really meant to be an undocumented even though you kind of know, but you don't know what that really means until oh you cannot apply for the FAFSA you cannot do something for school or get a license. Those are the obstacles that you face. Driver's license for example, having those excuses. I remember that one asked me like when are you going to get your license? And I'm like, yeah I'll get it later it's a long line have you been to the DMV? Yeah, I understand, I get you. Those are the kind of that you have to face while in high school and being undocumented. It's not hard it something that, you have to lie, you have to move through the system to kind of fit in and be like anyone else even though inside you know that you are not and you don't know what you're going to do. I guess those are the major obstacles that a high school student faces while attaining a higher education. The money is really important.
AE: You mentioned money as an obstacle, how are you able to pay the out-of-state tuition necessary for you to go to school?
JR: Me? Well I have to work really hard. Working fifty, sixty hours a week, having three jobs at the same time, being a full-time student, you have to endure all of that. I remember that my first year, my second year I only slept like four hours a day and working every single weekend. It's tough. You have to pay it out of your own pocket. Your parents have barely enough money to support themselves and support you. You have to make things work for you if you want to have an education. I guess that's how I managed to stay in school and working so hard, being a good student, being a good person, why isn't that enough? Why am I, why? I didn't understand. There was a point when I wanted to blame my parents but I knew that all they wanted is to have a better life for me. During that time in 2009, the fall of 2009 when I received a call from Nayely, from el Pueblo and she asked me if I wanted to be, to go to D.C. for this training for the Reform Immigration for American Campaign and I was like yes I want to do it, this is what I've been waiting for! I wanted to do something because the situation that I was in, the situation that I saw my parents in, my little brothers that they were soon going to be doing the same thing, the same struggles that I was doing. Yes, I want to. I want to do the training. I want to bring the RIFA campaign to North Carolina, which we did. We were only ten people going to the D.C. training, to me that was the first, what I was waiting for. I went to the training in December and we had a training here in Raleigh, North Carolina. We had a lot of people, students from around the state to go to that training and to have RIFA. That's when a lot of people from the North Carolina DREAM Team that I met, that's when I met Viridiana. I was a facilitator who facilitated the training where she was. I was kind of training Viridiana, which now I think she has trained me. I think it's something they have done, that we have done recently in the past 2010 year. That's how I became involved, civically engaged in my community. Even though I was already doing community service, but that's when I really went canvassing with my community, that there was this immigration reform being crafted by Congress, and that Luis Gutierrez was going to be doing something. Everyone was really happy, really hopeful that things will be changing. You know with my community, and I think I'm repeating myself I was really frustrated again when I found out it was only a campaign, it was only six months. When I realized I was being used and at that time I didn't feel like I was being used because I was doing it out of my heart out of my love for my community because I wanted things to change. Out of my own time, out of my own money, out of my own life to put for this campaign and move a lot of my community. All of them asking me questions, what's the next step, what's the next step? The RIFA campaign, it was ending. And I'm like, what am I going to tell my community? There is no reform, it was a lie. That made me feel really bad with myself. I was like screw the RIFA campaign, they don't, I felt really bad that I didn't see [sic] that coming even though people told me around me. My dad told me that they were only using me. No, no, no I'm doing this because I want to do it. I changed my parents they both went to the March for America on March 21st of last year. After that nothing else happened. That's when Viridiana a friend of mine along with other students around the state came together and we formed the North Carolina DREAM Team. Undocumented students, allies that are documented, that check their privileges. They know, they want undocumented students to be the ones speaking for themselves and them just being kind of like the tools, which I don't like that, but kind of like giving their knowledge their abilities so they can enhance that, that's what a true ally is by the way.
AE: That's what a what?
JR: A true ally is.
AE: Oh, yes.
JR: That's when I became really involved with activism at the end of 2009 and almost all of 2010. [laughs]
AE: What kind of actions has the North Carolina DREAM Team done in the past?
JR: Well the first one that we had that was like two weeks after we founded it, it was a thirteen day hunger strike which I originally was going to be doing, but I found out that I wasn't able to do it because the first day I was like okay I'm going to try to do this day and I was dying that afternoon. I couldn't, I was like oh my gosh my body is numbing [laughs] I need to eat something, [laughs] I know that's kind of sad, but I felt really proud of those three strong women: Viridiana Martinez, Loida Silva and Rosario Lopez. Rosario Lopez which is one of that graduated from UNC-Chapel Hill. All of them undocumented. At some point of all them students. But they decided to take direct action and show that they were tired of living in the shadows that they were tired of being second-class citizen and not being able to have the same opportunities that everyone had. They grew up here just like me. They saw opportunity on the DREAM Act. The DREAM Act it's a piece of legislation that if passed it would have allowed students like me to be able to form that line that people always talk about, go to the back of the line. There's no line. To form that space for people like me to be able to work hard and to ultimately gain citizenship. It would have been a ten year process, but still it's a process that was there for us, which wasn't able to because Senator Hagan along with other senators and also Senator Rachel Burr they killed it, back in last year in December 18th 2010. A Saturday, I will never forget because I was there. So that's the first action that the North Carolina DREAM Team did. The thirteen day hunger strike we did which the main purpose was to push Senator Kay Hagan, a Democrat from North Carolina, to pass the DREAM Act, to co-sponsor the DREAM Act which she never did and she voted no. Then we moved to more, to do a lot of work in the community. We began to do, especially for undocumented students, to do coming out of the shadows actions, rallies throughout the state of North Carolina. We did it in Greensboro, we also did a campaign, "No Taxation without Representation" which there has always been that stigma that undocumented people in general they don't pay taxes. That is entirely not true. It's a lie. We do pay taxes. The IRS has been giving us the ITIN number, it's similar to the social security number, with the sole purpose of filing taxes each tax season. It has been given to [sic] us by the IRS since 1996, so all of us pay taxes. That's for income tax. There is no line for undocumented people, you pay here so you don't have to pay taxes. We all pay sales taxes. That's another thing that we did. I know with Know Your Rights training for the community, what to do if a police officer stops you and you don't have a driver's license. What to do if there is an officer knocking on your door in the middle of the night. If they don't have a warrant they cannot come in. That's kind of the work we have been doing with the community. I don't know if I should mention any recent [laughs]
AE: Ah, we'll get to that.
JR: [coughs] Okay, that's all last year, [coughs] [laughs] Sorry.
AE: No problem. Please don't choke.
JR: [takes drink] Thank you.
AE: No problem. For you what has been the most challenging aspect of being involved in the movement?
JR: Well last year I claimed that having a job supporting me was the obstacle. I had to go to work. Those hours, I may as well could have been using it for my community organizing. But right now I think there are a lot of organizations that claim to advocate for our community. They are speaking for us, kind of like the RIFA campaign. They were the ones who put what the community wanted, when what the community wanted was just a driver's license to be able to go out. It wasn't the community being spoken for [sic]. I will have to say organizations, that non-profit complex are an obstacle right now for us to work with to our full potential. Also another one is the lack of funds, because we don't want to be limited on the ability for us to do rallies, direct action and even civil disobedience. Being a non-profit limits you and the amount of things you can do. I'll say the lack of funds, because we are solely funded by our day jobs by [sic] money that I make from [sic] my work and donation from the community when we do work or certain fundraisers that we do throughout the year. That's what we get back. So I'll say money is an issue too.
AE: Do you feel it has now become necessary to use civil disobedience to make undocumented students voices heard?
JR: Let me see. I think that's more like a personal thing. I have done along with undocumented students around the country, we have done lobbying, we have met with our Senator, we have rallied, we have done a lot of things to move our communities to make that statement for our communities that we are students we want an education. We have been living here since we were children. This is our home. When that falls on dead ears and the community becomes complacent and the community becomes engulfed in fear with all of this anti-immigrant legislation, which occurred first in Arizona with SB 1070. Now here in Carolina we have HB11 which will ban undocumented students to go to school or HB343 which is the copycat SB1070. And HB33 and HB38 and the list goes on like fifteen bills now in the North Carolina General Assembly that we have and people want to do lobbying still. For me I felt the need to stand up and make that statement to expose that my community is living in fear, my community is being persecuted, and that I as a student I had the responsibility to make that statement known throughout the country. So I think it is necessary to do civil disobedience or direct action, it doesn't have to be civil disobedience in order for people to know and understand why are we here? Why are we demanding education? Why is it that our communities are being engulfed in fear, in shame? When a student, especially a high school student comes to you and asks Jose, you're in community college, you're undocumented, how can I do the same thing? When you know that there is a possible ban and these students are afraid and are in shame because they are undocumented, crying to me because they are undocumented. Because they weren't able to tell their advisors that they were undocumented because they feel the shame. They feel inferior. That moved me to move forward to tell it to the world to express that all of this is happening. That's why I, we haven't gotten to that question yet, but I had partaken in an act of civil disobedience last week. So I don't know if you want to ask that question- [laughs]
AE: Go on, that's fine.
JR: [coughs] So yeah, last week, last Tuesday, April 5th myself along with other six students from around the country, from Pennsylvania, one student from Pennsylvania, two students from Illinois, from Chicago, a student from Michigan, a student from Georgia and two students from North Carolina including myself. We partook in an act of civil disobedience doing a sit-in, blocking a street in downtown Atlanta in the middle of Georgia State University campus on the road that leads to the Capitol Building. To sit down and to tell it first of all to tell it to those, there's a ban on the five top universities in Georgia. That if you're undocumented you cannot go to those five, but you can go to the rest, which is totally, I'll even say discriminatory. Because there are different, all of these bills popping up in North Carolina, there is a ban in South Carolina, there just around the country the same thing. And out of solidarity there are also students from Michigan, from Chicago, Illinois, that have that privilege even though they are undocumented, some of them going to four-year colleges and paying in-state tuition. Like us and even Pennsylvania they are paying out-of-state tuition. We came together and did this. That we were not going to tire that we want an education, we are not going to comply with the ban to education and that if this is what it takes for people to wake up and to understand, not only citizens but every single human being living in the United States to understand that we want an education that we are human beings and we are being denied that. If that's what it takes then we're going to do it. We have learned from the past like in the 1960s when the Civil Rights Movement was going on, it took a lot of people to do a lot of civil disobedience, people getting arrested forty times to in order to change the things that [mumbles] has today. If people didn't do that back then, we wouldn't have that today what it is today. We would still have segregation. So I am a supporter of civil disobedience. If that's what it takes for people to understand it than that's what it takes. If there's people willing to do it, then so be it.
AE: So what happened as a result of the civil disobedience?
JR: What happens?
AE: What happened to you and the students who blocked the street?
JR: We got arrested, [cough] Are you going to share this with just the school? [tape pause]
JR: So we were detained, we were there for almost twenty five hours. There I saw how DREAM eligible youth were treated. We're treated differently from other people. We weren't deported, we weren't processed quickly enough as the other inmates. I'm sure that if it were my mom being there, she would have been deported by now. But because we are DREAM eligible, because the Secretary of State Janet Napolitano said that we were not going to be targeted. That in itself shows [sic] how the system is not working. That the laws need to change because we are not getting deported, but we're not getting any relief. We're left in this limbo of uncertainty. What are we going to do? We're not getting deported, we're standing, putting our lives on the line for our community, which moved us to do this in the first place. There is this answer from the government, I am still here along with the other six students that had the courage and the bravery to do it. We have that feeling, we're still here, nothing is going on, and the system clearly broke down, the system clearly is not working. If that what it takes us to do, a civil disobedience, to realize what was going on and for the entire university to see [cough] that we are here and we're going to stay here. The government is allowing us to stay here. We were [sic] released and what's the next step to do. More civil disobedience? More direct action? If we don't see any movement from the government or the politicians we have to change the laws that are criminalizing our existence. We have to change that because it's not right. No human being should be treated like that, not differently from anybody else. That's why it's really important.
AE: One final question, in your opinion what do you see as the American dream?
JR: The American dream? When I lived in Mexico I honestly thought that it was the best thing ever. I thought that the people, everything was alright here in the United States. But now that I live here, I don't think the American dream fills you. If you think the American dream is just having a lot of money, being successful, but still that doesn't fill you in your heart. That doesn't fill you with who you are. If you're not happy, you're not attaining any dream. I'll say that the American dream, it's what you want it to be. It's what you want to see in your community. And I don't know, that might not even qualify as an American dream but my dream is for everyone to have the same opportunities, for each student to be treated equally, even if you're undocumented you need to have the same opportunities that everyone has. To be able to go to school without being persecuted from driving without a license or you know? That's my dream, that's what I would like to see. It is not much of a personal goal, but I've done a lot of things for my community and I wouldn't feel right to attain my personal goals and see that my community is still being persecuted is still being in fear, still being in shame. So, there might not even be an American dream. I don't know, that's my opinion on that.
AE: Okay, thank you very much.
JR: Thank you Ariel.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Estudiantes; Activistas por la justicia social
Es: Género de entrevistado
Hombre
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
José Rico es un estudiante indocumentado que asiste a una escuela técnica comunitaria en Raleigh, en Carolina del Norte. El nació en San Luis Potosí antes de mudarse a Tamaulipas, en México, cuando tenía tres años. La familia de Rico se mudó a Raleigh, en Carolina del Norte, en el 2003. Llegaron con visa de turista, pero se quedaron más allá de lo permitido. Rico se involucró en el activismo de la comunidad cuando trabajaba en la campaña por la Reforma Migratoria Pro América (RIFA). En el 2010, Rico ayudó a fundar el equipo para la reforma de inmigración para jóvenes (DREAM Act) de Carolina del Norte, un grupo de estudiantes inmigrantes y aliados del alumnado comprometidos a crear un movimiento de derechos de los inmigrantes en el estado de Carolina del Norte. Rico es un defensor de los estudiantes indocumentados que salen de las sombras y él ha declarado públicamente su estatus en varias ocasiones. En la entrevista, Rico analiza la historia de la migración y la educación de su familia, destaca su experiencia en el sistema de educación público en los Estados Unidos. Rico también habla del activismo comunitario.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con José Rico por Ariel Eure, 11 Abril 2011, R-0478, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Activismo; Ciudadanía e inmigración; Educación; Educación superior; Movimiento de jóvenes 'Soñadores' y Acción Diferida
Es: Transcripción
Ariel Eure: I'm here with Jose Rico, an undocumented student who is an activist and community organizer for North Carolina DREAM Team. Where were you born?
Jose Rico: I was born in Mexico in 1989.
AE: In what state in Mexico?
JR: I was born in San Luis Potosi in Ciudad de Valles, Mexico, in September 3rd 1989 [laughs]
AE: When and why did you come to the United States?
JR: That's a long question I'm going to have to, you might want to put it down. So the reason why I'm here goes back in the mid-nineties when the United States signed its foreign policies. This is just in my case. Back in 1994, 1995 President Clinton signed the North Atlantic Free Trade [sic] Agreement, the NAFTA, with Mexico and Canada, and what that did is it allowed many US companies to settle in the Northern part of Mexico in the northern part by the border, so that they can have cheaper labor. My parents were from the central part of Mexico, from San Luis Potosi, and my dad for the opportunity of having a better life and a job, so he moved to the Northern part of Mexico, in Reynosa, Tamaulipas, which is like twenty minutes from McAllen, Texas. So that's where I grew up. We moved when I was three years old to that part of Mexico and my dad went to college there, he became an engineer and he was working there. I believe that I was really privileged, still, even though I'm undocumented. We were able to attain tourist visas so we were able to come back and forth. Well, before 2003 when my dad was laid off by [sic] that U.S. company. The reason why he was laid off was because that those companies were moving away from Mexico. They were looking for even cheaper labor purposes outside of Mexico to Southeast Asia, like China and all of these countries that today we see has emerging powers. So that's why my dad, you know my dad didn't have a job, my dad was looking for a better opportunity for me and for my family so that's why we moved here. We entered legally with tourist visas, and that's basically why my parents decided to move here. I personally didn't want to move here. I had a life in Mexico I was in the secundaria, which is middle school, seventh grade, and I was doing really good. When we came here we were visiting my aunt in Raleigh, North Carolina. We got here on June 23rd of 2003.1 thought that we were going for vacation. I thought that we were coming for a visit. I didn't know it would become a stay. My mom was the one who convinced me to stay. She knew that I liked a lot to go swimming, to go to the pool, and where we lived in the apartment complex we had two. So, we didn't have to pay to go to the pool like in Mexico. I really liked that. Besides, the school in Mexico was a week after the school beginning here so I was like, I'm going to try it, why not? I tried it the first day; I didn't like it at all. I wanted to go back, I told my mom I wanted to go back but that's why she convinced me with the pool. To this day I don't regret my parents ever moving here, bringing me here, because they wanted a better opportunity for me education-wise and to have food on the table for us. So that's what anyone, any parent will do if they're faced with those situations where they have to provide for their family. I love my parents. I will never regret it, that's what they did. I am not going to judge them. If someone wants to put out a finger to them, they should put out to the foreign policies that made them move in the first place. But that's just in my case. There are many people who moved for different reasons, similar, but different. I hope that answered the question for why I'm here, [laughs]
AE: Yes. How far did your parents go in school?
JR: My dad, he had some college. He had a semester to go before graduating. He didn't graduate but he still gained a title as an engineer because he was working with people, you know with engineers. He learned everything that he had to; he was just a semester from graduating college and getting that piece of paper that said he was an engineer. My mom, I admire also a lot my mom because she actually finished her G.E.D. here in the United States and she did it all by herself, [mumble] She went to school by herself and preparing, even asking me questions about math and all that. I was really happy when she got her G.E.D. in 2004. That was a year after we moved here.
AE: How do you parents feel about the importance of education in your life and in their lives?
JR: The importance of what?
AE: The importance of education.
JR: Education. I think both of my parents they cherish education a lot. My dad, he went to college but he wasn't able to graduate, my mom, getting her G.E.D. here, learning English both of them, that's something that in itself tells that they cherish education. Also, the fact that they are supporting me, right now that I'm going to college, to community college, paying out-of-state tuition. They are helping me with tuition, with housing, for me that tells me that they value education. They want me to succeed and they want me to have the life that they weren't able to attain, to have the opportunities they weren't able to attain. That's why I'm here and that's why I'm trying so hard to have education myself.
AE: Did you speak any English when you came to the United States?
JR: I didn't know a lot of English. I knew a little bit because as I said I felt very privileged back in Mexico. My parents were hardworking people so I was privileged to be able to attend a private school and be able to learn English. We were also living on the border between Mexico and the U.S. so I was pretty much I knew the culture, But it was still tough to learn the language and be fluent. The only words I was able to understand were like "how are you" or "what's your name". Aside from that I didn't know that much. So no, not that much.
AE: When you started attending school in the United States were you offered English as a Second Language classes?
JR: Yes, and for that I can also say that I'm privileged, because I coming here, I had the opportunity that there was an ESL program offered at the middle school that I had, that I went to. But if you go back, five years even, a little bit back before the 2000s, there were still a lot of schools that didn't offer ESL. I know from different people, different friends that I have, that I know, that wasn't the case, that there was [sic] only them and no ESL. They were by themselves. But I did have ESL and I had it in my first period class on the first day that I had a U.S. school ever.
AE: Where would you say the majority of the people in your ESL class were from in high school?
JR: Well the high school, I can talk about the middle school, because in middle school that's when I had ESL. I think we were really diverse. We had people from Mexico of course, but we also had from El Salvador, from Guatemala, from Japan, from Vietnam, and from Africa also. They spoke French, that's when I learned a little bit of French from them. It was a really diverse ESL class.
AE: Do you think that ESL helped you in middle school or do you think that it kept you a little isolated from the rest of your schoolmates?
JR: For me, I think it helped me. It helped me a lot. But I did see [sic] that the ESL program, it has a lot of flaws. I had to go and talk to my ESL teacher that I didn't want to have ESL anymore because I told myself that I know enough English to be able to go to the other classes with the regular people with the regular students, the regular class. I had to do that to be able to get out of ESL. I think that there were a lot of students that didn't have that kind of determination or the courage to go and talk to their teacher. I'm okay, I don't need ESL, I don't want ESL anymore. I can do it, I wanted to do it by myself. I wanted to challenge myself. There are people who become complacent maybe. That's what I see. They also give you a test and I don't think that's really accurate, I'll say. But that's just my perspective; things might have changed by now since I graduated in 2008 and I didn't have ESL until, I mean I still had ESL until 2004, 2005. So that was a long time ago, it was like six years ago. [laughs]
AE: What were the most difficult subjects for you when you first came to the United States?
JR: The first day of school and I can tell you the first day of school it was social studies and a little bit of science because we had to read. But social studies was the hardest class that I had on that first day of school and that first semester of school in the United States back in middle school. Because we had to read and we had to understand a lot of things in English. I remember that the first test that I had the teacher allowed me to answer the questions in Spanish. I understood the question but how can I elaborate and do it in English, it was really really new and I was learning. I'll say that social studies was the - and I didn't have English yet. I'll say that English and social studies would be the hardest ones if you're learning a new language.
AE: Did you get good grades in high school?
JR: I did, I did get good grades in high school. I don't want to brag about it. I did. I had a semester of ESL in high school which that's when I had to talk to my teacher like I don't want ESL anymore. I went straight to the regular classes. Then I took Honors classes. Then I took AP classes since I was a junior. I think if I had known English before, a little bit before, I could have taken even more Honors classes and AP classes. That probably hindered a little bit my G.P.A. I ended up with a 3.99998 G.P.A. [laughs] so I did have good grades.
AE: Were there any teachers in your middle school or your high school that knew about your status?
JR: [pause] Yes. There was this teacher in middle school I guess that, the teachers that knew about my status, were the ones that I didn't tell them. Well yeah, kind of throughout the years. In middle school my ESL teacher was the one that I told, well I didn't specifically tell her but with the conversation that I wanted to go to college, I didn't tell her specifically, she told me like even if you don't have documents you can still go to school. She took me to the first back in 2004, she took me to this summit for education that the North Carolina Hispanic Professionals sponsors each year. That's their thing for scholarships and all. I was invited by this teacher and she told me that. Back in high school the teacher that I also told was my Spanish teacher, I took AP Spanish literature and she, it was in the eleventh grade and I was talking about college, and she told me like you should apply for Harvard. She was like I don't want to ask this [mumbles] question but if you don't have the [mumbles] documents to apply and because it's one of the Ivy League schools and it's a private school, they may be able to offer you more help. But those were the teachers I didn't specifically tell [sic] those were the ones that pushed me because they wanted me to be better. This wasn't a teacher this was an advisor that I told, and I specifically told her because I wanted to go to school. It was my advisor in high school, I was in the twelfth grade, my senior year, first semester and I told her you know what are the possibilities of a student with a at the time had a 3.8 G.P.A., of a 3.8 student to go to school? She told me there were many because I was a Latino student, I was a minority, so I had a lot of opportunities. But then I also asked her what about the possibilities for an undocumented student to go to school, to go to college? She said that there were minimal opportunities because of their status, but she said, Jose you're not in that situation. At that moment I chose to come out of the shadows and say I'm undocumented or to remain in the shadows and be complacent probably not even go to community college. So I decided to tell her yes, I am one of those students. What can I do? I want to go to school. I have the grades; you already said that, I have the grades. She couldn't give me any feedback. She shook her head and just couldn't say anything because she wasn't prepared. That's the person that I told.
AE: Did you find it hard to stay motivated in high school?
JR.: When I was in high school, no. I was really involved in community service, I helped create, co-found the first Latino club in my school, the [mumbles] service club, and I was giving service to my school by translating with the advisors in the advising office for students that didn't understand [sic] the language. I gave a lot of service with my school. I also had a lot of classes, AP classes, and that's what motivated me to go through high school.
AE: How did you feel on the day of your graduation?
JR.: [pause] I was really excited because I was going to a new stage of my life. I knew that the next stage was college. I had applied to seven universities; out of them to [sic] six of them I was accepted. I was still really excited I was like, yes I have attained it, I have a high school diploma. My parents brought me here because they wanted that opportunity. My parents threw me a party after the ceremony in the house with my family so I felt really excited. But at the same time, you know in the back of my mind, what am I going to do next? I know that I couldn't pay for school even though I was accepted to many of them. I kind of knew I was going to be going to community college all along because of my situation. But I wanted to put it aside to have that hopeful thought of what if I'm given the opportunity to go to a four year college? Because I always had that dream that I want to experience what is it like to live in a dorm with a bunch of students and just having your own life? To have a normal life? I guess at the end it was sad. That night I was like I have to keep trying. So I guess I was really hopeful that day of my graduation. I was happy and hopeful. I got all of these, what is it called? Honors and all of these certifications from my school and the National Honor Society, and the service club, for giving service to the school which only like ten students in the whole school are given to. I feel really proud and happy and hopeful.
AE: Could you elaborate on why you had to go to community college instead of a four year university?
JR: Yes, I can. I applied to as I said to seven colleges and also private schools. They did offer me money, but it wasn't enough to pay. Like one of them gave me like two thousand dollars but it was like a hundred thousand dollar school. I didn't have the money to pay them the rest. I needed my family, I knew that. Mainly because of the money I wasn't able to. As you know undocumented students cannot apply for the FAFSA so they cannot have any federal financial aid or state financial aid. They only thing that you have is just private funding. So when I had that private funding I was able to attain a private scholarship which covered my first year of community college, which was like two thousand dollars, paying out-of-state tuition by the way. But still, I was able to do that much. But I really frustrated why you know, working so hard, taking all of those classes and at the end it didn't pay off as much as I was expecting to. That was very frustrating [sic] to the point that I didn't want to, you know what am I going to do? Someday I'm going to run out of money and I don't know what I'm going to do next. Does that answer the question I can go on, but I just want to answer the question [laughs]
AE: Yes, you answered it. What would you say the various obstacles are that undocumented students face when trying to go to college?
JR: [pause] Undocumented students or any students?
AE: Yes.
JR: For undocumented students first of all, you don't know the system. You have to learn how the system works. Even within school you have to find out how to even get your advisors to send your transcript to the school that you want to go to. And I guess an emphasis in and that's for the schools that have to emphasis in the fact that you have to apply for school. Be thinking about it in your eleventh grade tenth grade that you're going to be doing that in your last year of high school, something that would have helped me a lot. But still I was able to learn that the hard way I guess applying for schools. And also many of the students don't know like I applied to seven of them and I was, you have to apply for them and you have to pay for the application. Some people don't know if you have a reduced lunch in high school you are allowed to have four of those applications waived by the school. That's something that many students do not know. That's another obstacle that you can see there. Also, knowing how to apply. It's hard to go and apply and do a bunch of essays then asking your teachers for letters of recommendation and then it's that FAFSA form which for undocumented students it's really hard because the first thing that they ask on that first page is your social security number and you don't have it. People like me, I didn't know what that was. So I went and asked my mom, mom can you give me the number because I want to apply for school and to find out that I didn't have it. That's what it really meant to be an undocumented even though you kind of know, but you don't know what that really means until oh you cannot apply for the FAFSA you cannot do something for school or get a license. Those are the obstacles that you face. Driver's license for example, having those excuses. I remember that one asked me like when are you going to get your license? And I'm like, yeah I'll get it later it's a long line have you been to the DMV? Yeah, I understand, I get you. Those are the kind of that you have to face while in high school and being undocumented. It's not hard it something that, you have to lie, you have to move through the system to kind of fit in and be like anyone else even though inside you know that you are not and you don't know what you're going to do. I guess those are the major obstacles that a high school student faces while attaining a higher education. The money is really important.
AE: You mentioned money as an obstacle, how are you able to pay the out-of-state tuition necessary for you to go to school?
JR: Me? Well I have to work really hard. Working fifty, sixty hours a week, having three jobs at the same time, being a full-time student, you have to endure all of that. I remember that my first year, my second year I only slept like four hours a day and working every single weekend. It's tough. You have to pay it out of your own pocket. Your parents have barely enough money to support themselves and support you. You have to make things work for you if you want to have an education. I guess that's how I managed to stay in school and working so hard, being a good student, being a good person, why isn't that enough? Why am I, why? I didn't understand. There was a point when I wanted to blame my parents but I knew that all they wanted is to have a better life for me. During that time in 2009, the fall of 2009 when I received a call from Nayely, from el Pueblo and she asked me if I wanted to be, to go to D.C. for this training for the Reform Immigration for American Campaign and I was like yes I want to do it, this is what I've been waiting for! I wanted to do something because the situation that I was in, the situation that I saw my parents in, my little brothers that they were soon going to be doing the same thing, the same struggles that I was doing. Yes, I want to. I want to do the training. I want to bring the RIFA campaign to North Carolina, which we did. We were only ten people going to the D.C. training, to me that was the first, what I was waiting for. I went to the training in December and we had a training here in Raleigh, North Carolina. We had a lot of people, students from around the state to go to that training and to have RIFA. That's when a lot of people from the North Carolina DREAM Team that I met, that's when I met Viridiana. I was a facilitator who facilitated the training where she was. I was kind of training Viridiana, which now I think she has trained me. I think it's something they have done, that we have done recently in the past 2010 year. That's how I became involved, civically engaged in my community. Even though I was already doing community service, but that's when I really went canvassing with my community, that there was this immigration reform being crafted by Congress, and that Luis Gutierrez was going to be doing something. Everyone was really happy, really hopeful that things will be changing. You know with my community, and I think I'm repeating myself I was really frustrated again when I found out it was only a campaign, it was only six months. When I realized I was being used and at that time I didn't feel like I was being used because I was doing it out of my heart out of my love for my community because I wanted things to change. Out of my own time, out of my own money, out of my own life to put for this campaign and move a lot of my community. All of them asking me questions, what's the next step, what's the next step? The RIFA campaign, it was ending. And I'm like, what am I going to tell my community? There is no reform, it was a lie. That made me feel really bad with myself. I was like screw the RIFA campaign, they don't, I felt really bad that I didn't see [sic] that coming even though people told me around me. My dad told me that they were only using me. No, no, no I'm doing this because I want to do it. I changed my parents they both went to the March for America on March 21st of last year. After that nothing else happened. That's when Viridiana a friend of mine along with other students around the state came together and we formed the North Carolina DREAM Team. Undocumented students, allies that are documented, that check their privileges. They know, they want undocumented students to be the ones speaking for themselves and them just being kind of like the tools, which I don't like that, but kind of like giving their knowledge their abilities so they can enhance that, that's what a true ally is by the way.
AE: That's what a what?
JR: A true ally is.
AE: Oh, yes.
JR: That's when I became really involved with activism at the end of 2009 and almost all of 2010. [laughs]
AE: What kind of actions has the North Carolina DREAM Team done in the past?
JR: Well the first one that we had that was like two weeks after we founded it, it was a thirteen day hunger strike which I originally was going to be doing, but I found out that I wasn't able to do it because the first day I was like okay I'm going to try to do this day and I was dying that afternoon. I couldn't, I was like oh my gosh my body is numbing [laughs] I need to eat something, [laughs] I know that's kind of sad, but I felt really proud of those three strong women: Viridiana Martinez, Loida Silva and Rosario Lopez. Rosario Lopez which is one of that graduated from UNC-Chapel Hill. All of them undocumented. At some point of all them students. But they decided to take direct action and show that they were tired of living in the shadows that they were tired of being second-class citizen and not being able to have the same opportunities that everyone had. They grew up here just like me. They saw opportunity on the DREAM Act. The DREAM Act it's a piece of legislation that if passed it would have allowed students like me to be able to form that line that people always talk about, go to the back of the line. There's no line. To form that space for people like me to be able to work hard and to ultimately gain citizenship. It would have been a ten year process, but still it's a process that was there for us, which wasn't able to because Senator Hagan along with other senators and also Senator Rachel Burr they killed it, back in last year in December 18th 2010. A Saturday, I will never forget because I was there. So that's the first action that the North Carolina DREAM Team did. The thirteen day hunger strike we did which the main purpose was to push Senator Kay Hagan, a Democrat from North Carolina, to pass the DREAM Act, to co-sponsor the DREAM Act which she never did and she voted no. Then we moved to more, to do a lot of work in the community. We began to do, especially for undocumented students, to do coming out of the shadows actions, rallies throughout the state of North Carolina. We did it in Greensboro, we also did a campaign, "No Taxation without Representation" which there has always been that stigma that undocumented people in general they don't pay taxes. That is entirely not true. It's a lie. We do pay taxes. The IRS has been giving us the ITIN number, it's similar to the social security number, with the sole purpose of filing taxes each tax season. It has been given to [sic] us by the IRS since 1996, so all of us pay taxes. That's for income tax. There is no line for undocumented people, you pay here so you don't have to pay taxes. We all pay sales taxes. That's another thing that we did. I know with Know Your Rights training for the community, what to do if a police officer stops you and you don't have a driver's license. What to do if there is an officer knocking on your door in the middle of the night. If they don't have a warrant they cannot come in. That's kind of the work we have been doing with the community. I don't know if I should mention any recent [laughs]
AE: Ah, we'll get to that.
JR: [coughs] Okay, that's all last year, [coughs] [laughs] Sorry.
AE: No problem. Please don't choke.
JR: [takes drink] Thank you.
AE: No problem. For you what has been the most challenging aspect of being involved in the movement?
JR: Well last year I claimed that having a job supporting me was the obstacle. I had to go to work. Those hours, I may as well could have been using it for my community organizing. But right now I think there are a lot of organizations that claim to advocate for our community. They are speaking for us, kind of like the RIFA campaign. They were the ones who put what the community wanted, when what the community wanted was just a driver's license to be able to go out. It wasn't the community being spoken for [sic]. I will have to say organizations, that non-profit complex are an obstacle right now for us to work with to our full potential. Also another one is the lack of funds, because we don't want to be limited on the ability for us to do rallies, direct action and even civil disobedience. Being a non-profit limits you and the amount of things you can do. I'll say the lack of funds, because we are solely funded by our day jobs by [sic] money that I make from [sic] my work and donation from the community when we do work or certain fundraisers that we do throughout the year. That's what we get back. So I'll say money is an issue too.
AE: Do you feel it has now become necessary to use civil disobedience to make undocumented students voices heard?
JR: Let me see. I think that's more like a personal thing. I have done along with undocumented students around the country, we have done lobbying, we have met with our Senator, we have rallied, we have done a lot of things to move our communities to make that statement for our communities that we are students we want an education. We have been living here since we were children. This is our home. When that falls on dead ears and the community becomes complacent and the community becomes engulfed in fear with all of this anti-immigrant legislation, which occurred first in Arizona with SB 1070. Now here in Carolina we have HB11 which will ban undocumented students to go to school or HB343 which is the copycat SB1070. And HB33 and HB38 and the list goes on like fifteen bills now in the North Carolina General Assembly that we have and people want to do lobbying still. For me I felt the need to stand up and make that statement to expose that my community is living in fear, my community is being persecuted, and that I as a student I had the responsibility to make that statement known throughout the country. So I think it is necessary to do civil disobedience or direct action, it doesn't have to be civil disobedience in order for people to know and understand why are we here? Why are we demanding education? Why is it that our communities are being engulfed in fear, in shame? When a student, especially a high school student comes to you and asks Jose, you're in community college, you're undocumented, how can I do the same thing? When you know that there is a possible ban and these students are afraid and are in shame because they are undocumented, crying to me because they are undocumented. Because they weren't able to tell their advisors that they were undocumented because they feel the shame. They feel inferior. That moved me to move forward to tell it to the world to express that all of this is happening. That's why I, we haven't gotten to that question yet, but I had partaken in an act of civil disobedience last week. So I don't know if you want to ask that question- [laughs]
AE: Go on, that's fine.
JR: [coughs] So yeah, last week, last Tuesday, April 5th myself along with other six students from around the country, from Pennsylvania, one student from Pennsylvania, two students from Illinois, from Chicago, a student from Michigan, a student from Georgia and two students from North Carolina including myself. We partook in an act of civil disobedience doing a sit-in, blocking a street in downtown Atlanta in the middle of Georgia State University campus on the road that leads to the Capitol Building. To sit down and to tell it first of all to tell it to those, there's a ban on the five top universities in Georgia. That if you're undocumented you cannot go to those five, but you can go to the rest, which is totally, I'll even say discriminatory. Because there are different, all of these bills popping up in North Carolina, there is a ban in South Carolina, there just around the country the same thing. And out of solidarity there are also students from Michigan, from Chicago, Illinois, that have that privilege even though they are undocumented, some of them going to four-year colleges and paying in-state tuition. Like us and even Pennsylvania they are paying out-of-state tuition. We came together and did this. That we were not going to tire that we want an education, we are not going to comply with the ban to education and that if this is what it takes for people to wake up and to understand, not only citizens but every single human being living in the United States to understand that we want an education that we are human beings and we are being denied that. If that's what it takes then we're going to do it. We have learned from the past like in the 1960s when the Civil Rights Movement was going on, it took a lot of people to do a lot of civil disobedience, people getting arrested forty times to in order to change the things that [mumbles] has today. If people didn't do that back then, we wouldn't have that today what it is today. We would still have segregation. So I am a supporter of civil disobedience. If that's what it takes for people to understand it than that's what it takes. If there's people willing to do it, then so be it.
AE: So what happened as a result of the civil disobedience?
JR: What happens?
AE: What happened to you and the students who blocked the street?
JR: We got arrested, [cough] Are you going to share this with just the school? [tape pause]
JR: So we were detained, we were there for almost twenty five hours. There I saw how DREAM eligible youth were treated. We're treated differently from other people. We weren't deported, we weren't processed quickly enough as the other inmates. I'm sure that if it were my mom being there, she would have been deported by now. But because we are DREAM eligible, because the Secretary of State Janet Napolitano said that we were not going to be targeted. That in itself shows [sic] how the system is not working. That the laws need to change because we are not getting deported, but we're not getting any relief. We're left in this limbo of uncertainty. What are we going to do? We're not getting deported, we're standing, putting our lives on the line for our community, which moved us to do this in the first place. There is this answer from the government, I am still here along with the other six students that had the courage and the bravery to do it. We have that feeling, we're still here, nothing is going on, and the system clearly broke down, the system clearly is not working. If that what it takes us to do, a civil disobedience, to realize what was going on and for the entire university to see [cough] that we are here and we're going to stay here. The government is allowing us to stay here. We were [sic] released and what's the next step to do. More civil disobedience? More direct action? If we don't see any movement from the government or the politicians we have to change the laws that are criminalizing our existence. We have to change that because it's not right. No human being should be treated like that, not differently from anybody else. That's why it's really important.
AE: One final question, in your opinion what do you see as the American dream?
JR: The American dream? When I lived in Mexico I honestly thought that it was the best thing ever. I thought that the people, everything was alright here in the United States. But now that I live here, I don't think the American dream fills you. If you think the American dream is just having a lot of money, being successful, but still that doesn't fill you in your heart. That doesn't fill you with who you are. If you're not happy, you're not attaining any dream. I'll say that the American dream, it's what you want it to be. It's what you want to see in your community. And I don't know, that might not even qualify as an American dream but my dream is for everyone to have the same opportunities, for each student to be treated equally, even if you're undocumented you need to have the same opportunities that everyone has. To be able to go to school without being persecuted from driving without a license or you know? That's my dream, that's what I would like to see. It is not much of a personal goal, but I've done a lot of things for my community and I wouldn't feel right to attain my personal goals and see that my community is still being persecuted is still being in fear, still being in shame. So, there might not even be an American dream. I don't know, that's my opinion on that.
AE: Okay, thank you very much.
JR: Thank you Ariel.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-0478 -- Rico, José.
Description
An account of the resource
Jose Rico is an undocumented student attending community college in Raleigh, North Carolina. He was born in San Luis Potosi, Mexico before moving to Tamaulipas, Mexico when he was three years old. Rico's family moved to Raleigh, North Carolina in 2003, arriving on a tourist visa, but overstayed their visa. Rico became involved with community activism when working on the Reform Immigration for America (RIFA) campaign. In 2010, Rico helped found the North Carolina DREAM Team, a group of immigrant student youth and allies committed to creating an immigrants' rights movement in the state of North Carolina. Rico is an advocate for undocumented students coming out of the shadows and has publicly declared his status on several occasions. In the interview, Rico discusses his family's history of migration and education, highlighting his experiences in the public education system in the United States. Rico also talks about community activism.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
11 April 2011
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/15839">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/8a9f65ee3622ceba6581a2655047549a.pdf
3e1bebd5dd168872a6d97cf501161a98
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0488
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
02 April 2011
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
X, Miguel A., pseud.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Students
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1992
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Male
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Celaya -- Guanajuato -- Mexico
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Pittsboro -- Chatham County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-100.813889 20.523056),1992,1;POINT(-79.17723710000001 35.7201463),1999,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Eure, Ariel.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Miguel is a graduate from a Chatham County, North Carolina high school and an undocumented immigrant. He was born in Mexico and moved to the United States in 1999. This interview focuses on Miguel's and his family's background, with a discussion of Miguel's experiences in school and his community. Miguel also talks about the need of motivation for undocumented students before starting college and his understanding of college and the application process for undocumented students, as well as specific policies concerning undocumented individuals.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Miguel A. X, pseud., by Ariel Eure, 02 April 2011, R-0488, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/15831
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Citizenship and immigration;Culture;DREAMers and DACA; Education; Language and communication
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Ariel Eure: I'm here with an undocumented student that graduated from a Chatham County high school in 2010. Where were you born?
Miguel Alvarez: I was born in Celaya, Guanajuato, Mexico.
AE: When did you come to the United States?
MA: I came to the United States in year 1999.
AE: Why did you come to the United States?
MA: I came here because, I was very young and my parents wanted me to live with them here in the United States.
AE: Okay, so your parents came over earlier. How much earlier did they come here?
MA: They came here four years before me.
AE: Do you have any idea of how old your parents were when they migrated?
MA: Yes, I have an idea. I think they were around the age of twenty to twenty-five years old when they first migrated.
AE: What was their prior job in Mexico? Do you know?
MA: Job? They had a, when I was a kid I remember they ran a store, a grocery store in our own house. That's the only thing I remember about their job.
AE: When they came to the United States what job did they have?
MA: Well, they had several jobs. For example, I remember them talking about working in Wendy's, Taco Bell or...yes just Wendy's and Taco Bell.
AE: How did you arrive to the United States?
MA: I arrived here, hm, well I was very young, um, I remember me, um I was riding with my uncle in the van and I'm guessing I um used another kid my age's papers.
AE: How far did your parents go in school?
MA: They did not go to high school they only went to middle school.
AE: How do you think your parents feel about education? Do they think it's something important? Do they think work is more important?
MA: They think it's very important. The main reason for me being here the United States is to have a better education because in Mexico it's very hard to have an education because you have to pay, and [sic] here you don't have to pay through high school only college and they think it's very important.
AE: Where did you go to high school?
MA: I went to high school in Chatham County, a high school called Pittsboro, I'm sorry it's called Northwood High School.
AE: Is it in Pittsboro?
MA: Yes, it's in Pittsboro. [laughs]
AE: Did your schools provide you with ESL classes? [tape pause]
AE: Did you have ESL classes in any of your schools?
MA: Yes I did. In middle school I had, I went to ESL class and in high school as well until the tenth grade.
AE: Do you feel that ESL really helped you in school?
MA: Yes, it did help me because the teacher there, the ESL teacher, she spoke Spanish and English which made us have a better communication about school.
AE: Did you come to the United States knowing any English?
MA: No, [sic] I did not know any English when I got here.
AE: Did that language barrier when you first got here did that make it difficult for you to understand some of the course material that you were given?
MA: Yes, a lot, because I remember a friend of mine, back then he knew Spanish and English, he was my friend and he helped me a lot understanding homework. Yes, it was a struggle.
AE: Were there any subjects in particular that you had trouble with because English was not your first language?
MA: No, everything was okay, except math. I struggled through that a lot. [laughs]
AE: Did you like high school?
MA: Yes, I liked it a lot, but I liked middle school better.
AE: How was the ethnic or racial makeup of your school, where there a lot of Latinos, were there a lot of immigrant families? How was it set up?
MA: In my high school it was equally divided by races. There were equal amount of white people, black people, Hispanic people, even Chinese people. It was equally people.
AE: In your ESL classes where would you say the majority of the students are from?
MA: Yeah, that's an easy one. The majority was Hispanic people.
AE: From any certain region in particular?
MA: Yes, Mexico.
AE: Do you think that the racial groups in your high school stayed pretty separate from each other? Or do you think that everyone interacted?
MA: In my point of view, I was friendly with everybody, had all different types of friends. But I think yes, the different races stuck pretty close to their own race.
AE: Did you ever feel discriminated against as a Latino in your high school or in your elementary school or your middle school?
MA: To be honest I'm not sure. But if I did I did not pay much attention to it because I was focused on school and making friends.
AE: Were the majority of your friends from your ESL class or from different classes.
MA: It was from different classes not just ESL.
AE: What was your favorite subject in school?
MA: My favorite subject was science because of the experiments and the activities that we did.
AE: Were there any programs in your middle school, your elementary school, your high school, that you think really helped you succeed or gain certain study skills?
MA: In [sic] my senior year I joined a club called AIM Club which focused on [sic] motivating students to do better in class or just be a better person in life.
AE: Did you get good grades in high school?
MA: I was average. I was not perfect but I was not the worst kid in class.
AE: Were there any classes that you had specific difficulty in or that you really excelled in?
MA: Yes, math, I did not do too good in there. I tried my best but I'm guessing it's not part of me. I wish it was. I wish I understood [sic] math more but I struggle a lot.
AE: Any classes that you thought you succeeded in? Or that were very strong subjects for you?
MA: Is art considered? Yes, I liked art and I was considered a very good artist and several times I was asked to do drawings for people.
AE: Do you think your grades could have gotten you into college?
MA: [pause] Yes, I think they would have gotten me into college, but not... [tape pause]
AE: Do you think your grades in high school would have gotten you into college?
MA: Yes, I do, because I graduated on time. Yes, I believe it would have.
AE: Are there any teachers in any of your schools that knew about your status?
MA: Well, my ESL teacher knew about it and I'm sure other teachers did as well, but they just did not say anything about it.
AE: Was your ESL teacher supportive of you and try to motivate you to stay in high school or go to college?
MA: Yes, she did motivate me because I was always maybe thinking that I could not go to college because of my status and she always reminded me to stay in school and do well [sic].
AE: Did you want to go to college in high school?
MA: Yes, of course I did. That's the main reason I stayed and graduated on time through high school.
AE: Were there any colleges you were looking at or researching?
MA: No.
AE: Do you know what some of the requirements are to apply for college?
MA: Well, they ask for your G.P.A. and some do ask for a social security number. That's about all I know.
AE: Did you take any tests like the ACT or the SAT to prepare yourself for college?
MA: Yes, I did take them.
AE: Do you think you did well on them, were they difficult for you?
MA: Yes, they were difficult a lot, because some of the subjects I had forgotten and I needed to review everything again. I would like to retake them.
AE: If you were to go to college what do you think you would want to study?
MA: I would like to study, well I like cars a lot, automotive, and I think I would take a career that has to do with cars.
AE: Why is college important to you?
MA: It's important to me because the reason my parents brought me here is to have a better education. I know that college is the way to go to make my parents proud of me and thank them because they brought me here. I think I should go to college.
AE: Do you have any family members who have gone to college in the United States?
MA: No, I don't.
AE: In high school did you see college as an option either academically or financially? Or did you think you would have enough time for it?
MA: Can you repeat the question?
AE: Yeah, did you see college as an option in high school? Whether that be academically, did you have the grades to go? Financially, did you think you had the money to go? Or maybe you didn't feel like you had the time to go?
MA: I think I saw it as an obstacle economically because my parents work hard but just to provide for the necessary things for example, rent, food, things like that, college money was not there.
AE: Do you know what the restrictions are currently for undocumented students who want to go to school?
MA: I know one. I know that the undocumented students have to pay out-of-state tuition, that they have to pay more, but I also know that it's very hard to get into college.
AE: And also in North Carolina [sic] undocumented students are allowed to go to public universities and community college but cannot receive public funds. So they can't receive any grants or financial aid, so a lot of them have private donors or private scholarships that give them money. So do you think that you could have sought out someone who maybe could have financed your college for you?
MA: Well the person I work for always reminded to apply to college and that she would try her best to help me economically paying for college.
AE: Did you apply to any colleges in high school?
MA: No, I didn't.
AE: What are the obstacles you think undocumented students have to face when they're applying for college and when they're trying to go?
MA: One obstacle that I see a lot is that undocumented students would have problems with transportation because they are not allowed to get a license, so that's an obstacle I see.
AE: How did you specifically prepare for life after high school?
MA: I prepared by having a job and I don't know, just being a better person every day.
AE: What kind of a job do you have?
MA: My job is being a handyman I work for a lady which involved construction, landscaping, painting, anything.
AE: In high school did you see yourself going to college after high school or working after high school?
MA: I saw myself working for a year, for example, taking a year off high school or my education, but then after that I wanted to apply for college after a year.
AE: You graduated in 2010, we're coming up on about a year so do you have any plans currently to apply to school?
MA: Yes I do. I'm researching at a community college called CCCC.
AE: What does that stand for?
MA: [pause] It stands for [pause] community college. I'm not sure.
AE: Where is that located?
MA: It's located near my house in Pittsboro.
AE: How did you feel on the day of your graduation?
MA: I felt very proud of myself because I did what my teachers asked me to do, to stay focused on [sic] my education, to graduate on time with my other classmates, and I felt very proud.
AE: Were you ever involved in the student movement that has been happening currently to promote rights for undocumented students?
MA: No.
AE: Do you know what the DREAM Act is?
MA: Yes, I know a little bit about it. What I know is it's a program to help students, Hispanic students or undocumented students that really want to go to college. After going to college if they do really good they can get citizenship?
AE: Have you heard of any other legislation relating to undocumented students and college access in North Carolina?
MA: No, I haven't heard.
AE: Have you heard about HB11 ?
MA: No.
AE: HB11 is a piece of legislation that was introduced this year that wants to prohibit any undocumented student from going to community college or a public university. How do you feel that bill, do you feel that bill will succeed currently?
MA: I don't think it would succeed because there are a lot of programs out there, people trying to get Hispanic students into college, and if we keep fighting for that dream it will come true.
AE: Have you ever considered going back to Mexico for school?
MA: Yes, I have considered that, because the main reason for [sic] me going back to Mexico and studying would be because there it's a lot easier to apply and I don't have to go through the struggles that I would go through here.
AE: Do you think college would be cheaper in Mexico?
MA: Yes, I think it would be cheaper than here in the United States.
AE: Because as an undocumented student you would have to pay out-of-state tuition even to go to community college, how will you financially prepare yourself to go back to school?
MA: I would do what I'm doing right now. I would work and save money and not spend it on things that I don't need. If necessary I would find an extra job to earn [sic] more money for college.
AE: How do you feel the political environment is toward undocumented students currently?
MA: Can you explain the question?
AE: Do you feel like undocumented students are seen in a negative light now in the political atmosphere? Or that they are seen positively and a lot of people are trying to help them? Do you think people are trying to discriminate against them and prohibit them from accessing education?
MA: I think it's an equal battle. By that I mean that a lot of people don't mind undocumented students going to college and support them. There's also the other side that is [sic] against undocumented people going to college.
AE: Why do you think those people who are anti-immigrant and do not want undocumented students to be allowed to go to college, why do you think they believe that?
MA: I think they believe that because they think we are stealing their job opportunities or we are trying to be better prepared in life than them.
AE: Do you feel that you are not given the same opportunities for post-secondary, after high school education because you are undocumented or because you're Latino?
MA: I think it's more because I'm undocumented it makes it harder for me to go to college.
AE: Are you going to expect your children to go to college?
MA: Yes, I would love that. I think that would be real good for them.
AE: How long do you think it will take for you to get a degree, any sort of college degree?
MA: I think it will take me around three years. I think that's a fair number.
AE: Do you know any undocumented students who are in college at the moment?
MA: Yes I do, I know a couple.
AE: How are they paying for their education?
MA: I know one that earned her, how do you say it, she got her-
AE: Scholarship?
MA: Yes, that's what it is, she got her scholarship and got her education paid for.
AE: Do you think it is difficult for undocumented students to stay motivated in high school?
MA: Yes, I think it's very difficult to stay motivated because, me for example, I was going through whenever laws changed that immigrant students could not go to college then I was very depressed because I thought that my dreams were being killed. I saw some other kids that did not do well [sic] in school, did not stay focused, so yes, I think it's very difficult.
AE: You had an ESL teacher that was very supportive of you and motivated you to do well in school and to go to college. But do you think that the majority of the undocumented students in your school got this kind of support or do you think a lot of them were forgotten about?
MA: I think they got the support because, yes I think the received the support from teachers.
AE: Do you feel a lot of undocumented students drop out of high school?
MA: I remember seeing research about that and yes, Hispanic students had [sic] a high rate of dropouts in high school.
AE: Why do you think undocumented students or Latino students in general have such a high rate of high school dropouts [sic], or have such a high high school dropout rate?
MA: I think the main reason for dropouts is because their parents cannot provide a lot of things for them, for example, clothes, or cell phones or electronics, stuff like that so they prefer to get a job and get their own money and work instead of going to school.
AE: Do you feel most undocumented students go to work after high school like you did or do you think that they really try to go to college?
MA: I think most of them find a job and stay working instead of trying to apply for college.
AE: In your opinion, what is the American dream?
MA: I think the American dream is having a good job, I think it's [pause] having an education, and being able to be someone in life, not just any regular worker.
AE: Do you think that the American dream is accessible to undocumented students?
MA: Yes, I think it is accessible because I've seen several Hispanic people who have succeeded in life and they got what they wanted [sic]. Yes, I think it's out there for everybody.
AE: Do you think it's harder to achieve the American dream if you are undocumented?
MA: No I don't think there's anything that holds you from achieving your goals in life. I just think that laws make it harder. For example, us applying to college and being [sic] accepted, it does make it hard, but that doesn't make it impossible.
AE: Has the town that you live in now changed demographically since you've been here, like who lives in the town?
MA: Yes I think it has changed a lot because I see more Hispanic people in the street or because I see more Hispanic grocery shops, stores that's what I'm trying to say, I see more stores that are out there for Hispanic people.
AE: Where do you think most of the Latinos that have moved into your community are from?
MA: I think most people are from Mexico, but I also see some other people from other places instead of Mexico.
AE: Is there a large population of Mexicans in your town that are from Guanajuato?
MA: [pause] Yes, there is.
AE: With this influx of Latinos to the area and immigrants to the area, do you think that North Carolina or your town specifically is hostile to the immigrant population? Or do you think that they're accepting of them or that they are kind of angry that they're living there?
MA: I've lived here for a lot of years and during that time I have not seen any negative things towards me. It's not a problem here.
AE: Do you trust the police in your community?
MA: Yes, I do trust them. They're here for me.
AE: Do you think that the laws against undocumented individuals having licenses would prohibit you or stop you from going to school?
MA: Yes, well, no because buses are provided and I don't see that as a problem.
AE: Do you ever fear being deported?
MA: Well, I try to keep my mind off [sic] of that. Because if I do I'm going to live in fear all the time, but I know there is a possibility of getting deported but I just don't worry about it.
AE: Why do you think undocumented students should be allowed to go to college?
MA: I think they should be allowed because there are [sic] many intelligent people, Hispanic people, and there's nothing wrong with that. I think it would be really good for the country, I think it's really good.
AE: What would you say to those who believe that undocumented students are taking up a spot that is for an American citizen in the education system?
MA: Well I think they are being selfish. They are not sharing the great education that the United States provides and I think they should just focus on their selves and not what other people want in life. Well I don't agree with them.
AE: Do you feel you have less access to education because there are so many, there is so much negative, there's such a negative environment around undocumented students? [tape pause, move on to next question]
AE: Do you think more immigrants come to the United States for work or for education and why?
MA: I think they come here for both, both are good reasons. Because in Mexico having a job is something rare and coming here to the United States is a privilege, it's a positive thing you know, it's something that's out there that you can find a job and have opportunity where you want to work at. I think it's both and being in college is something that's beneficial [sic] to your future that will make you a better person in life. You will get paid more.
AE: Specifically, in your home state of Guanajuato do you think that there is a lack of work or educational opportunities or both?
MA: I think there is a lack of work or a lot of competition. But I also know that recently not too long ago they built a new college where I was born. That's a good thing; I think that's progress in the community.
AE: Guanajuato this year was the number one state of sending migrants to the United States. Why do you think that's true? Or why do you think so many people have left Guanajuato for the United States?
MA: That's a really good question. I don't think there's anything [sic] wrong with that. I think if the people from Guanajuato are [sic] the number one migrating people I think it's mostly because they want a better life. They are thinking ahead everybody else who doesn't [sic] migrate.
AE: How do you think that all of these people who are migrating outside of Guanajuato is affecting the state of Guanajuato?
MA: I don't think it's going to affect it in any [sic] way because that would give some other teenage a job opportunity somewhere in Guanajuato, if there were [sic] less people or more people migrating out of there. I think more jobs would be available. But as well I think in the future I think that the people born in Guanajuato would be more educated if they came here, if their reasons to come here was for a better education.
AE: Why do you think education is important for undocumented students?
MA: I think it's important because [pause] [pause tape, move on to next question]
AE: Do you believe going to college is worth it for undocumented students, even though they may not be able to use their degree in the future?
MA: Yes, I think it's worth it because it's always good to learn everything you can in life. There's nothing wrong with that and though you may not, cannot use your degree now, maybe in the future things might change and you'll be able to use it and have more opportunities in work.
AE: Do you think that it's fair that undocumented students have to pay out-of-state tuition? Why or why not?
MA: I don't think it's fair because [pause] we're trying to go to college for the same reason as everybody else, just to have an education. I don't see why we have to pay more than any other citizen. I think that [pause] being here since I was nine, I think that's a lot of years that I've been in school and I think I deserve to pay a regular price.
AE: If you go to college where do you see yourself in ten years?
MA: If I went to college I can imagine myself being [pause] having a really really good job, not having to worry about not having enough money to pay rent or bills or food. I see myself [pause] economically [pause] good.
AE: If you don't go to college where do you see yourself in ten years?
MA: I see myself in the same situation as I am right now, working. Working, living by the weekly [sic] check and just I don't see myself having any savings or being able to enjoy my money because it would all go to, all the money would go away really quick. I just don't see any improvement.
AE: Would you say that although you have limited access to college in the United States you're doing better than you would have been if you stayed in Mexico?
MA: Yes, I mean that's the main reason we came here because opportunities in Mexico, it's very hard and very difficult to succeed. But here just having a job is a privilege. I think there's nothing [sic] negative about having a job.
AE: If undocumented students were prohibited from going to college in North Carolina do you think that you would stay here and work or do you think you would return to Mexico to go to school?
MA: I think I would stay here and work here because just I like it here, it's really nice. I would stay here.
AE: Do you believe if you were a non-Hispanic American citizen that you would support or oppose undocumented students going to college? Why or why not?
MA: I would [pause] agree with [sic] undocumented students going to college. I would be okay with it because everybody deserves a good education. I see it as a positive thing because this country would be better than any other country with more, with everybody being educated equally.
AE: Do you think the legalization of undocumented students or undocumented individuals will happen in the near future?
MA: I don't think it will happen in the near future, but there's always hope. Just keep hoping that it will be in the near future because that would change a lot of things and there will be no more high school dropouts from immigrant students. I think they would stay in school and do better in life.
AE: What sort of steps do you think should be taken to motivate undocumented students to stay in school and graduate and get a college degree?
MA: I think a few steps would be that parents, their parents would have to be more involved in their school, go to meet with their teachers and motivate them more often. I also think that they should join sports, be more involved in school activities and yes, join school clubs.
AE: Currently there's a lot of anti-immigrant legislation, a lot of it concerning education. What do you think are the reasons for this negative atmosphere related to undocumented immigrants and students specifically? [pause] Why do you think there's so much there's such an anti-immigrant environment currently, right now? Do you think it's because they're afraid of the unknown, they're not used to the population, do you think they feel threatened, do you think it's an economic thing? What do you think is there reason?
MA: I think there's several things that explain why this is happening. I guess every year they see more, greater increase in the population and I guess they do feel threatened that we might steal their opportunities in college or in jobs, stuff like that.
AE: Okay, thank you very much.
MA: Thank you.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Estudiantes
Es: Género de entrevistado
Hombre
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Miguel es un ex alumno de una escuela preparatoria del condado de Chatham, en Carolina del Norte, y un inmigrante indocumentado. Nació en México y se mudó a los Estados Unidos en 1999. Esta entrevista se centra en Miguel y en los antecedentes de su familia y discute las experiencias de Miguel en la escuela y su comunidad. Miguel también habla de la necesidad de motivar a los estudiantes indocumentados antes de comenzar la universidad y su conocimiento sobre la universidad y el procesos de aplicación para los estudiantes indocumentados, así como las políticas específicas relativas a personas indocumentadas.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Miguel A. X, pseud., por Ariel Eure, 02 Abril 2011, R-0488, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Ciudadanía e inmigración; Cultura; Educación; Lenguaje y comunicación; Movimiento de jóvenes 'Soñadores' y Acción Diferida
Es: Transcripción
Ariel Eure: I'm here with an undocumented student that graduated from a Chatham County high school in 2010. Where were you born?
Miguel Alvarez: I was born in Celaya, Guanajuato, Mexico.
AE: When did you come to the United States?
MA: I came to the United States in year 1999.
AE: Why did you come to the United States?
MA: I came here because, I was very young and my parents wanted me to live with them here in the United States.
AE: Okay, so your parents came over earlier. How much earlier did they come here?
MA: They came here four years before me.
AE: Do you have any idea of how old your parents were when they migrated?
MA: Yes, I have an idea. I think they were around the age of twenty to twenty-five years old when they first migrated.
AE: What was their prior job in Mexico? Do you know?
MA: Job? They had a, when I was a kid I remember they ran a store, a grocery store in our own house. That's the only thing I remember about their job.
AE: When they came to the United States what job did they have?
MA: Well, they had several jobs. For example, I remember them talking about working in Wendy's, Taco Bell or...yes just Wendy's and Taco Bell.
AE: How did you arrive to the United States?
MA: I arrived here, hm, well I was very young, um, I remember me, um I was riding with my uncle in the van and I'm guessing I um used another kid my age's papers.
AE: How far did your parents go in school?
MA: They did not go to high school they only went to middle school.
AE: How do you think your parents feel about education? Do they think it's something important? Do they think work is more important?
MA: They think it's very important. The main reason for me being here the United States is to have a better education because in Mexico it's very hard to have an education because you have to pay, and [sic] here you don't have to pay through high school only college and they think it's very important.
AE: Where did you go to high school?
MA: I went to high school in Chatham County, a high school called Pittsboro, I'm sorry it's called Northwood High School.
AE: Is it in Pittsboro?
MA: Yes, it's in Pittsboro. [laughs]
AE: Did your schools provide you with ESL classes? [tape pause]
AE: Did you have ESL classes in any of your schools?
MA: Yes I did. In middle school I had, I went to ESL class and in high school as well until the tenth grade.
AE: Do you feel that ESL really helped you in school?
MA: Yes, it did help me because the teacher there, the ESL teacher, she spoke Spanish and English which made us have a better communication about school.
AE: Did you come to the United States knowing any English?
MA: No, [sic] I did not know any English when I got here.
AE: Did that language barrier when you first got here did that make it difficult for you to understand some of the course material that you were given?
MA: Yes, a lot, because I remember a friend of mine, back then he knew Spanish and English, he was my friend and he helped me a lot understanding homework. Yes, it was a struggle.
AE: Were there any subjects in particular that you had trouble with because English was not your first language?
MA: No, everything was okay, except math. I struggled through that a lot. [laughs]
AE: Did you like high school?
MA: Yes, I liked it a lot, but I liked middle school better.
AE: How was the ethnic or racial makeup of your school, where there a lot of Latinos, were there a lot of immigrant families? How was it set up?
MA: In my high school it was equally divided by races. There were equal amount of white people, black people, Hispanic people, even Chinese people. It was equally people.
AE: In your ESL classes where would you say the majority of the students are from?
MA: Yeah, that's an easy one. The majority was Hispanic people.
AE: From any certain region in particular?
MA: Yes, Mexico.
AE: Do you think that the racial groups in your high school stayed pretty separate from each other? Or do you think that everyone interacted?
MA: In my point of view, I was friendly with everybody, had all different types of friends. But I think yes, the different races stuck pretty close to their own race.
AE: Did you ever feel discriminated against as a Latino in your high school or in your elementary school or your middle school?
MA: To be honest I'm not sure. But if I did I did not pay much attention to it because I was focused on school and making friends.
AE: Were the majority of your friends from your ESL class or from different classes.
MA: It was from different classes not just ESL.
AE: What was your favorite subject in school?
MA: My favorite subject was science because of the experiments and the activities that we did.
AE: Were there any programs in your middle school, your elementary school, your high school, that you think really helped you succeed or gain certain study skills?
MA: In [sic] my senior year I joined a club called AIM Club which focused on [sic] motivating students to do better in class or just be a better person in life.
AE: Did you get good grades in high school?
MA: I was average. I was not perfect but I was not the worst kid in class.
AE: Were there any classes that you had specific difficulty in or that you really excelled in?
MA: Yes, math, I did not do too good in there. I tried my best but I'm guessing it's not part of me. I wish it was. I wish I understood [sic] math more but I struggle a lot.
AE: Any classes that you thought you succeeded in? Or that were very strong subjects for you?
MA: Is art considered? Yes, I liked art and I was considered a very good artist and several times I was asked to do drawings for people.
AE: Do you think your grades could have gotten you into college?
MA: [pause] Yes, I think they would have gotten me into college, but not... [tape pause]
AE: Do you think your grades in high school would have gotten you into college?
MA: Yes, I do, because I graduated on time. Yes, I believe it would have.
AE: Are there any teachers in any of your schools that knew about your status?
MA: Well, my ESL teacher knew about it and I'm sure other teachers did as well, but they just did not say anything about it.
AE: Was your ESL teacher supportive of you and try to motivate you to stay in high school or go to college?
MA: Yes, she did motivate me because I was always maybe thinking that I could not go to college because of my status and she always reminded me to stay in school and do well [sic].
AE: Did you want to go to college in high school?
MA: Yes, of course I did. That's the main reason I stayed and graduated on time through high school.
AE: Were there any colleges you were looking at or researching?
MA: No.
AE: Do you know what some of the requirements are to apply for college?
MA: Well, they ask for your G.P.A. and some do ask for a social security number. That's about all I know.
AE: Did you take any tests like the ACT or the SAT to prepare yourself for college?
MA: Yes, I did take them.
AE: Do you think you did well on them, were they difficult for you?
MA: Yes, they were difficult a lot, because some of the subjects I had forgotten and I needed to review everything again. I would like to retake them.
AE: If you were to go to college what do you think you would want to study?
MA: I would like to study, well I like cars a lot, automotive, and I think I would take a career that has to do with cars.
AE: Why is college important to you?
MA: It's important to me because the reason my parents brought me here is to have a better education. I know that college is the way to go to make my parents proud of me and thank them because they brought me here. I think I should go to college.
AE: Do you have any family members who have gone to college in the United States?
MA: No, I don't.
AE: In high school did you see college as an option either academically or financially? Or did you think you would have enough time for it?
MA: Can you repeat the question?
AE: Yeah, did you see college as an option in high school? Whether that be academically, did you have the grades to go? Financially, did you think you had the money to go? Or maybe you didn't feel like you had the time to go?
MA: I think I saw it as an obstacle economically because my parents work hard but just to provide for the necessary things for example, rent, food, things like that, college money was not there.
AE: Do you know what the restrictions are currently for undocumented students who want to go to school?
MA: I know one. I know that the undocumented students have to pay out-of-state tuition, that they have to pay more, but I also know that it's very hard to get into college.
AE: And also in North Carolina [sic] undocumented students are allowed to go to public universities and community college but cannot receive public funds. So they can't receive any grants or financial aid, so a lot of them have private donors or private scholarships that give them money. So do you think that you could have sought out someone who maybe could have financed your college for you?
MA: Well the person I work for always reminded to apply to college and that she would try her best to help me economically paying for college.
AE: Did you apply to any colleges in high school?
MA: No, I didn't.
AE: What are the obstacles you think undocumented students have to face when they're applying for college and when they're trying to go?
MA: One obstacle that I see a lot is that undocumented students would have problems with transportation because they are not allowed to get a license, so that's an obstacle I see.
AE: How did you specifically prepare for life after high school?
MA: I prepared by having a job and I don't know, just being a better person every day.
AE: What kind of a job do you have?
MA: My job is being a handyman I work for a lady which involved construction, landscaping, painting, anything.
AE: In high school did you see yourself going to college after high school or working after high school?
MA: I saw myself working for a year, for example, taking a year off high school or my education, but then after that I wanted to apply for college after a year.
AE: You graduated in 2010, we're coming up on about a year so do you have any plans currently to apply to school?
MA: Yes I do. I'm researching at a community college called CCCC.
AE: What does that stand for?
MA: [pause] It stands for [pause] community college. I'm not sure.
AE: Where is that located?
MA: It's located near my house in Pittsboro.
AE: How did you feel on the day of your graduation?
MA: I felt very proud of myself because I did what my teachers asked me to do, to stay focused on [sic] my education, to graduate on time with my other classmates, and I felt very proud.
AE: Were you ever involved in the student movement that has been happening currently to promote rights for undocumented students?
MA: No.
AE: Do you know what the DREAM Act is?
MA: Yes, I know a little bit about it. What I know is it's a program to help students, Hispanic students or undocumented students that really want to go to college. After going to college if they do really good they can get citizenship?
AE: Have you heard of any other legislation relating to undocumented students and college access in North Carolina?
MA: No, I haven't heard.
AE: Have you heard about HB11 ?
MA: No.
AE: HB11 is a piece of legislation that was introduced this year that wants to prohibit any undocumented student from going to community college or a public university. How do you feel that bill, do you feel that bill will succeed currently?
MA: I don't think it would succeed because there are a lot of programs out there, people trying to get Hispanic students into college, and if we keep fighting for that dream it will come true.
AE: Have you ever considered going back to Mexico for school?
MA: Yes, I have considered that, because the main reason for [sic] me going back to Mexico and studying would be because there it's a lot easier to apply and I don't have to go through the struggles that I would go through here.
AE: Do you think college would be cheaper in Mexico?
MA: Yes, I think it would be cheaper than here in the United States.
AE: Because as an undocumented student you would have to pay out-of-state tuition even to go to community college, how will you financially prepare yourself to go back to school?
MA: I would do what I'm doing right now. I would work and save money and not spend it on things that I don't need. If necessary I would find an extra job to earn [sic] more money for college.
AE: How do you feel the political environment is toward undocumented students currently?
MA: Can you explain the question?
AE: Do you feel like undocumented students are seen in a negative light now in the political atmosphere? Or that they are seen positively and a lot of people are trying to help them? Do you think people are trying to discriminate against them and prohibit them from accessing education?
MA: I think it's an equal battle. By that I mean that a lot of people don't mind undocumented students going to college and support them. There's also the other side that is [sic] against undocumented people going to college.
AE: Why do you think those people who are anti-immigrant and do not want undocumented students to be allowed to go to college, why do you think they believe that?
MA: I think they believe that because they think we are stealing their job opportunities or we are trying to be better prepared in life than them.
AE: Do you feel that you are not given the same opportunities for post-secondary, after high school education because you are undocumented or because you're Latino?
MA: I think it's more because I'm undocumented it makes it harder for me to go to college.
AE: Are you going to expect your children to go to college?
MA: Yes, I would love that. I think that would be real good for them.
AE: How long do you think it will take for you to get a degree, any sort of college degree?
MA: I think it will take me around three years. I think that's a fair number.
AE: Do you know any undocumented students who are in college at the moment?
MA: Yes I do, I know a couple.
AE: How are they paying for their education?
MA: I know one that earned her, how do you say it, she got her-
AE: Scholarship?
MA: Yes, that's what it is, she got her scholarship and got her education paid for.
AE: Do you think it is difficult for undocumented students to stay motivated in high school?
MA: Yes, I think it's very difficult to stay motivated because, me for example, I was going through whenever laws changed that immigrant students could not go to college then I was very depressed because I thought that my dreams were being killed. I saw some other kids that did not do well [sic] in school, did not stay focused, so yes, I think it's very difficult.
AE: You had an ESL teacher that was very supportive of you and motivated you to do well in school and to go to college. But do you think that the majority of the undocumented students in your school got this kind of support or do you think a lot of them were forgotten about?
MA: I think they got the support because, yes I think the received the support from teachers.
AE: Do you feel a lot of undocumented students drop out of high school?
MA: I remember seeing research about that and yes, Hispanic students had [sic] a high rate of dropouts in high school.
AE: Why do you think undocumented students or Latino students in general have such a high rate of high school dropouts [sic], or have such a high high school dropout rate?
MA: I think the main reason for dropouts is because their parents cannot provide a lot of things for them, for example, clothes, or cell phones or electronics, stuff like that so they prefer to get a job and get their own money and work instead of going to school.
AE: Do you feel most undocumented students go to work after high school like you did or do you think that they really try to go to college?
MA: I think most of them find a job and stay working instead of trying to apply for college.
AE: In your opinion, what is the American dream?
MA: I think the American dream is having a good job, I think it's [pause] having an education, and being able to be someone in life, not just any regular worker.
AE: Do you think that the American dream is accessible to undocumented students?
MA: Yes, I think it is accessible because I've seen several Hispanic people who have succeeded in life and they got what they wanted [sic]. Yes, I think it's out there for everybody.
AE: Do you think it's harder to achieve the American dream if you are undocumented?
MA: No I don't think there's anything that holds you from achieving your goals in life. I just think that laws make it harder. For example, us applying to college and being [sic] accepted, it does make it hard, but that doesn't make it impossible.
AE: Has the town that you live in now changed demographically since you've been here, like who lives in the town?
MA: Yes I think it has changed a lot because I see more Hispanic people in the street or because I see more Hispanic grocery shops, stores that's what I'm trying to say, I see more stores that are out there for Hispanic people.
AE: Where do you think most of the Latinos that have moved into your community are from?
MA: I think most people are from Mexico, but I also see some other people from other places instead of Mexico.
AE: Is there a large population of Mexicans in your town that are from Guanajuato?
MA: [pause] Yes, there is.
AE: With this influx of Latinos to the area and immigrants to the area, do you think that North Carolina or your town specifically is hostile to the immigrant population? Or do you think that they're accepting of them or that they are kind of angry that they're living there?
MA: I've lived here for a lot of years and during that time I have not seen any negative things towards me. It's not a problem here.
AE: Do you trust the police in your community?
MA: Yes, I do trust them. They're here for me.
AE: Do you think that the laws against undocumented individuals having licenses would prohibit you or stop you from going to school?
MA: Yes, well, no because buses are provided and I don't see that as a problem.
AE: Do you ever fear being deported?
MA: Well, I try to keep my mind off [sic] of that. Because if I do I'm going to live in fear all the time, but I know there is a possibility of getting deported but I just don't worry about it.
AE: Why do you think undocumented students should be allowed to go to college?
MA: I think they should be allowed because there are [sic] many intelligent people, Hispanic people, and there's nothing wrong with that. I think it would be really good for the country, I think it's really good.
AE: What would you say to those who believe that undocumented students are taking up a spot that is for an American citizen in the education system?
MA: Well I think they are being selfish. They are not sharing the great education that the United States provides and I think they should just focus on their selves and not what other people want in life. Well I don't agree with them.
AE: Do you feel you have less access to education because there are so many, there is so much negative, there's such a negative environment around undocumented students? [tape pause, move on to next question]
AE: Do you think more immigrants come to the United States for work or for education and why?
MA: I think they come here for both, both are good reasons. Because in Mexico having a job is something rare and coming here to the United States is a privilege, it's a positive thing you know, it's something that's out there that you can find a job and have opportunity where you want to work at. I think it's both and being in college is something that's beneficial [sic] to your future that will make you a better person in life. You will get paid more.
AE: Specifically, in your home state of Guanajuato do you think that there is a lack of work or educational opportunities or both?
MA: I think there is a lack of work or a lot of competition. But I also know that recently not too long ago they built a new college where I was born. That's a good thing; I think that's progress in the community.
AE: Guanajuato this year was the number one state of sending migrants to the United States. Why do you think that's true? Or why do you think so many people have left Guanajuato for the United States?
MA: That's a really good question. I don't think there's anything [sic] wrong with that. I think if the people from Guanajuato are [sic] the number one migrating people I think it's mostly because they want a better life. They are thinking ahead everybody else who doesn't [sic] migrate.
AE: How do you think that all of these people who are migrating outside of Guanajuato is affecting the state of Guanajuato?
MA: I don't think it's going to affect it in any [sic] way because that would give some other teenage a job opportunity somewhere in Guanajuato, if there were [sic] less people or more people migrating out of there. I think more jobs would be available. But as well I think in the future I think that the people born in Guanajuato would be more educated if they came here, if their reasons to come here was for a better education.
AE: Why do you think education is important for undocumented students?
MA: I think it's important because [pause] [pause tape, move on to next question]
AE: Do you believe going to college is worth it for undocumented students, even though they may not be able to use their degree in the future?
MA: Yes, I think it's worth it because it's always good to learn everything you can in life. There's nothing wrong with that and though you may not, cannot use your degree now, maybe in the future things might change and you'll be able to use it and have more opportunities in work.
AE: Do you think that it's fair that undocumented students have to pay out-of-state tuition? Why or why not?
MA: I don't think it's fair because [pause] we're trying to go to college for the same reason as everybody else, just to have an education. I don't see why we have to pay more than any other citizen. I think that [pause] being here since I was nine, I think that's a lot of years that I've been in school and I think I deserve to pay a regular price.
AE: If you go to college where do you see yourself in ten years?
MA: If I went to college I can imagine myself being [pause] having a really really good job, not having to worry about not having enough money to pay rent or bills or food. I see myself [pause] economically [pause] good.
AE: If you don't go to college where do you see yourself in ten years?
MA: I see myself in the same situation as I am right now, working. Working, living by the weekly [sic] check and just I don't see myself having any savings or being able to enjoy my money because it would all go to, all the money would go away really quick. I just don't see any improvement.
AE: Would you say that although you have limited access to college in the United States you're doing better than you would have been if you stayed in Mexico?
MA: Yes, I mean that's the main reason we came here because opportunities in Mexico, it's very hard and very difficult to succeed. But here just having a job is a privilege. I think there's nothing [sic] negative about having a job.
AE: If undocumented students were prohibited from going to college in North Carolina do you think that you would stay here and work or do you think you would return to Mexico to go to school?
MA: I think I would stay here and work here because just I like it here, it's really nice. I would stay here.
AE: Do you believe if you were a non-Hispanic American citizen that you would support or oppose undocumented students going to college? Why or why not?
MA: I would [pause] agree with [sic] undocumented students going to college. I would be okay with it because everybody deserves a good education. I see it as a positive thing because this country would be better than any other country with more, with everybody being educated equally.
AE: Do you think the legalization of undocumented students or undocumented individuals will happen in the near future?
MA: I don't think it will happen in the near future, but there's always hope. Just keep hoping that it will be in the near future because that would change a lot of things and there will be no more high school dropouts from immigrant students. I think they would stay in school and do better in life.
AE: What sort of steps do you think should be taken to motivate undocumented students to stay in school and graduate and get a college degree?
MA: I think a few steps would be that parents, their parents would have to be more involved in their school, go to meet with their teachers and motivate them more often. I also think that they should join sports, be more involved in school activities and yes, join school clubs.
AE: Currently there's a lot of anti-immigrant legislation, a lot of it concerning education. What do you think are the reasons for this negative atmosphere related to undocumented immigrants and students specifically? [pause] Why do you think there's so much there's such an anti-immigrant environment currently, right now? Do you think it's because they're afraid of the unknown, they're not used to the population, do you think they feel threatened, do you think it's an economic thing? What do you think is there reason?
MA: I think there's several things that explain why this is happening. I guess every year they see more, greater increase in the population and I guess they do feel threatened that we might steal their opportunities in college or in jobs, stuff like that.
AE: Okay, thank you very much.
MA: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-0488 -- X, Miguel A., pseud.
Description
An account of the resource
Miguel is a graduate from a Chatham County, North Carolina high school and an undocumented immigrant. He was born in Mexico and moved to the United States in 1999. This interview focuses on Miguel's and his family's background, with a discussion of Miguel's experiences in school and his community. Miguel also talks about the need of motivation for undocumented students before starting college and his understanding of college and the application process for undocumented students, as well as specific policies concerning undocumented individuals.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
02 April 2011
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/15831">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
Format
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-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/50e396ac746fe1f0364fbabba48d01a4.pdf
82b1be28505a4e7b9d7578ed1340f3a3
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/17f17a635e0a73675da39b31ca525009.mp3
45f56f49a1bbf52521449879b04e0696
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0491
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
20 May 2011
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Gough, Wooten.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Community organizers; Social justice activists
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Male
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
North Carolina -- United States
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
North Carolina
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Eure, Ariel.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Wooten Gough is a community organizer who has recently been working for the Latin American Coalition and leading youth groups in Yadkin County. Gough is the co-founder of Students United for Immigrant Equality at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, which he formed after attended trainings and working with the Reform Immigration for America (RIFA) Campaign. Gough withdrew from his second semester at UNC to walk the Trail of DREAMS to Washington D.C. in support of the DREAM Act. He was arrested for participating in a sit-in at the White House in 2010. In this interview, Gough describes the community he grew up in and how the friends he made encouraged his participation in the immigrant rights movement. Gough talks about inequalities his undocumented students faced in the education system and whether or not those employed at the school knew of the students' situation. Wooten also speaks about the DREAM Act and of various laws that affect undocumented students.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Wooten Gough by Ariel Eure, 20 May 2011, R-0491, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/15773
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Activism; Citizenship and immigration; DREAMers and DACA
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Ariel Eure: I'm here with Wooten Gough a community organizer and participant
in the immigrant rights movement in North Carolina. Wooten, where were you
born?
Wooten Gough: Winston-Salem, North Carolina, U.S.A.
AE: And where did you grow up?
WG: Eastbend, North Carolina, also U.S.A.
AE: How far have you gone in school?
WG: Uh, one semester, first year of college, probably.
AE: Where did you go to college?
WG: I went to UNC Chapel Hill.
AE: Why did you only stay at UNC for that first year?
WG: Interesting question Ariel. I ended up walking to Washington D.C. with a
group of students called the Trail of Dreams.
AE: How far did your parents go in school?
WG: Both my mother and father have an Associate's degree. So that's how far
they went.
AE: How do you think your parents felt about the importance of education?
WG: Well my mom cares. Education is very important to her. She freaked out
when I left UNC. My father, I don't really know how he feels about education or
anything to be honest with you.
AE: Did you grow up around a significantly Latino population?
WG: Not when I was young. I didn't really start hanging out with a lot of Latino
people until I was in high school.
AE: Why do you think so many Latinos have been migrating to the United States
and North Carolina specifically?
WG: Well probably many reasons. One of them is the opportunities here, right?
So jobs that immigrants can get or are solicited. I know from Yadkinville at least
like the farmers need people to pick their crops and sow their crops and tend to
the fields and immigrants come here to do that work to provide for their families.
Another situation could be for survival. I know like Colombia if you stay there
your ass is grass. So people, all of my Colombian friends have like left guerrilla
warfare, which I would have done the same thing. Now why they come to North
Carolina is beyond me because I would go to California personally. But I think
also North Carolina is still kind of in the farming industry, I don't know if that's a
real industry but some type of field because I think that's where a lot of our
workers here are [sic] in like the plowing, the sowing, the picking and all the
crops. That's what I assume.
AE: For those migrants who don't work with agriculture, what kind of jobs do
they tend to have in North Carolina?
WG: I see a lot of immigrants working in the restaurant businesses, usually busing
the tables or even being the waiter or waitress, and usually of Mexican
restaurants. I know that's stereotypical but Mexican restaurants tend to be hiring
more Latinos and immigrants that other restaurants. At least that's what I've
noticed.
AE: When did you learn what it meant to be undocumented? Or even the word
''undocumented"?
WG: Well I heard of the word "undocumented" in the year 2009.1 heard "no
papers" before then when I was in high school but the actual word undocumented
I didn't hear until about 2009.1 didn't really understand what it meant then. I
thought it was just a Latino thing and not like an immigration issue, broad, but
what I gathered at that moment was that I just saw my friends couldn't do the
things that I could do because of that word, because they were undocumented.
AE: Could you talk a little about the campaign to start using the word
"undocumented" instead of "illegal" when referring to people without papers?
WG: Which campaign?
AE: The "Drop the I-Word Campaign".
WG: Okay, cool. So actually my friend started that campaign, her name is Loan.
She lives in Charlotte, North Carolina. She wanted to do the "Drop the 1-Word
Campaign" because she's very into inclusivity and using language that doesn't
oppress certain communities. So, it's more than dropping the word "illegal" and I
say that with finger quotations, it's dropping any kind of language that implies
"illegal", like criminal or something that's dehumanizing. I think that's it's
awesome because it kind of, well it's at least a stepping stone to talking to
someone to let [sic] them see undocumented people in a different light.
AE: Did you have any undocumented friends growing up in your community?
WG: Yeah, I knew of like three or four but there probably were several many
others that hid that they were undocumented [sic]. When I was in high school,
three of my very very very close friends, I'm not going to say their last names, but
Elder, Areli and Elibeth, were undocumented and I [sic] went to four years of
high school with them. So I was kind of already past the growing up part, but they
were definitely in my life for years.
AE: Why do you think those other students who were undocumented chose to
hide their status as opposed to your friends that you knew about?
WG: Because it's this huge secret. The fear is that if someone knows you're
undocumented you're going to get deported, that immigration is going to come
after you. They're going to come after your families. So to keep everyone safe
around you and to keep yourself safe you just don't talk about it. Also I think
because we lived in a very very very small town with a lot of [pause] um people
who don't experience other types of people. It just further [pause] assured them
not to say it to anyone because of where we lived.
AE: How is your undocumented friends' education different from yours?
WG: Well, first of all [pause] when I was in high school, the things that I had to
think about were different, right? So what I was in high school for was different
than my undocumented friend Elder. When I was in high school I didn't have to
worry about what am I going to do when I graduate? For me, the answer was
always to go to college. It wasn't even a question. I never had to worry about it,
but to him, it was a question such as "am I going to go back to Mexico, am I
going to stay here, what am I going to do? Am I going to try to find a job under
the table?" And that was just him. I'm sure that some students might think about,
"well am 1 even going to stay in high school? Am I going to leave it now? Why
am I even here if I can't go to college? Why would I go to college if I can't get a
degree?" None of those questions ever popped up in my mind. My education was
just way easier because I didn't have to deal with that. My college education is
also different in financial aspects, like I can get federal financial aid and my
undocumented friends could not. I could at least apply to any school and my
undocumented friends couldn't. I think that a financial burden was not really there
for me and it sure is for them [laughing].
AE: Do you believe it's pretty difficult for undocumented students to stay
motivated in high school? And if so what do you think are solutions to keep them
motivated and to keep them continuing their education?
WG: I know that I would be very unmotivated if I was undocumented and I was
in high school. If I knew that I couldn't get a license, I couldn't get a job, I
couldn't do anything, I was brought here at a young age and wasn't really a part
of that decision making process, and all these people the people around me
doesn't even know me, hearing on the news that I'm this and I'm that, and usually
all bad things, I would be so discouraged to even care. Who knows that I would
do? I wouldn't be motivated to wake up in the morning to go. I wouldn't be
motivated to try to push myself in any type of positive direction. I'd probably just
sleep all day. Negative alternatives would become easier, like getting into gangs
would become easier because people would probably understand my point of
view in a gang because they might be like me, feeling depressed and feeling like
they just don't belong. So yeah, I totally would not be motivated and I think
undocumented students go through that when they're in high school. A solution?
It would be really strenuous to talk to every undocumented person one-on-one.
But something that I know Forbush High School has is this thing called "early
college". You leave eighth grade and you do like a college/high school
combination for five years. When you graduate after that fifth year you get your
high school diploma and an Associate's degree. It's not this whole you have to
apply as a separate thing and that. It's constitutionally guaranteed for everyone as
if it was just high school. That's something that I hear being thrown around or
I've heard being thrown around is that to go into the eighth grade classes and give
those types of teach-ins or seminars to parents and students. If you're
undocumented you can get a college education and you can get it for free or for a
high school fee by doing the whole "early college" thing.
AE: Did their teachers in high school, the teachers of your undocumented friends,
know about their situation?
WG: [pause] Well, when I was in high school, I'm not sure if the teachers knew
about it. I know now though, since I've gone back into the high schools in my
home county that some of them do. The Spanish teacher does, the ESL teacher
definitely does, and I made sure to talk to the guidance counselor, and they
already knew. Which is a plus, because usually guidance counselors don't even
know. But what happens is none of the teachers know so when a kid who is
undocumented but still has hope and wants to try and they go talk to a teacher and
they say "well I don't have my papers", oftentimes the teacher and/or guidance
counselor tells them just to stop because there's nothing they can do, when there
is. When I was in high school, I'm not sure if they knew, but I know now that
some of them do know about the whole "undocumented" and the students in the
school who are undocumented. It's a plus.
AE: Did your undocumented friends in high school see college as an option in
their future or did they see working or returning back home as more realistic of an
option?
WG: It was more realistic for my undocumented friends to think about going back
to Mexico or finding an off-the-wall job here. But I think that of all of my friends
only one person got a job here and everyone else went back to Mexico. Some of
the students that I have worked with in the past that are in high school now are
telling me if something doesn't happen like the DREAM Act of administrative
relief by the president, they will also go back to their home country, somehow,
because they don't want to like physically be here but can't do anything else.
AE: In your opinion, what is the value or receiving a college degree as an
undocumented student even if you may not be able to legally use that degree in
the future?
WG: What is the value? [pause] I don't know, I don't even know if that can be
measured. I mean the monetary value is really high because shit's really
expensive but [pause] sorry, I'm trying to think of how I want to answer this.
AE: Would you say that it's worth it for an undocumented student to get a college
degree?
WG: I think that it's better to definitely strive to get a college degree just because
if something does happen you have that. Like if you were stopped or sent back to
your home country you have a degree under your belt so that's always good. Or if
something happens in this country you then have a degree. I don't know this but
maybe private corporations can hire undocumented people, I'm not really sure
about that at all. I really just now am thinking that. I have no idea. But it'd be a
huge accomplishment. Actually, two weeks ago the first undocumented student
that we know of graduated from law school, which is pretty awesome. His name
is Jose and he's from Florida.
AE: Can you explain what the DREAM Act is and why it is significant in the
movement?
WG: Yes. There's been several versions of the DREAM Act, but the DREAM
Act mat a lot of us campaigned for recently, that version is a piece of legislation
that would provide a ten-year pathway to citizenship if undocumented
students... first of all reached all of the qualifications such as they've had to have
graduated from a high school in the U.S., they've had to be here at least since they
were sixteen or before they were sixteen, I don't remember that point, and then
they have to go through two years of college or two years of military service and
then during [sic] that ten years they'd be like a fake permanent resident. They
would get a green card and license as if you're a permanent resident and then you
become a citizen within ten years. That's extremely important because we have
all these kids here and it's unrealistic to say we're going to deport everybody. We
have to fix something. We need something comprehensive, something really big,
and the DREAM Act is important because it could lead to that. Also the DREAM
Act is important because we have all these lives waiting on the line that are ready
to move forward and honestly the U.S. could totally benefit from something like
the DREAM Act passing, these bright students, or even your average student,
because everyone has something to contribute if given the chance. That's what the
DREAM Act would do, give the ones who want to contribute a chance to give
back.
AE: It's been said that the DREAM Act is being reintroduced this year. What do
you think are the chances that it'll pass even though it failed to pass in the Senate
in December of 2010?
WG: I think that the chances of it passing this year are [sic] very slim. We have
thirty-two Senators that signed onto a letter recently, but we only have fifty yes
votes if it were to come up right now. The House is very Republican like super-majority,
so I don't see it passing this year. But it is awesome that it's coming
back up. That's good, it's still on everyone's mind. Obama actually recently
created an ad and he's using the DREAM Act somewhat as a platform for his
campaign. He said something like "Obama supports the DREAM Act" and side
note underneath that "click here if you want to donate money", which is
interesting because he's promoting the DREAM Act to get money from his
campaign and someone came out with an article saying "you can't fool us, we
want the DREAM Act and we're not going to give your money for your campaign
because you're talking about the DREAM Act". I don't think it's going to pass to
be honest this year, not the DREAM Act. We need something administrative,
straight from Obama that we don't have to rely on Congress to pass through first.
AE: [mumble] The superstars almost in this movement for the DREAM Act have
been very exceptional students in school, active in community service and
extracurricular activities, just very bright students. Do you feel that those students
who are kind of the forerunners of this movement, is that a common thing, or do
you think that these are exactly what they are, exceptional students, and that the
majority of undocumented students don't have the same kind of academic,
extracurricular, community service success as the people who are in the spotlight
in this movement do?
WG: I'm glad that you asked this question because a lot of those exceptional
student leaders that you bring up or talk about say that they feel [pause] wrong
sometimes promoting just that face. They feel like the iminigrant youth
population has to put on this face of being perfect all the time. In a way, even
though we're trying to humanize undocumented youth, it's dehumanizing as well
to show that they can't falter. A lot of stories popped up over last year especially,
DREAM Act coming up for a vote, and we saw alt these amazing youth and how
they excelled, and they spoke like seven languages, and they want to build music
therapy centers for autistic children, and all these great and wonderful things. But
the reality is, that there's a lot of undocumented youth here that are like your
typical high schooler. That's the other face. The youth that I work with, or used to
work with in Yadkin County, they're just like me when I was in high school.
They're just like my sister who was in high school. Some of them are doing great
things but some of them are also doing, well some of them are doing exceptional
things but some of them are doing great things that are normal for their age as
well. I think that we kind of overlook them in search for that perfect immigrant.
AE: What do you think the effect of losing DREAM students in the future may
be, whether they start increasing deportations of these students or these students
start returning back home because they don't have many options in the U.S.? How
do you think that is going to alter U.S. society, if it will alter it at all?
WG: Well it would alter it in many ways and I think that we won't notice it at
first. I learned through my friends who are different nationalities than me that
there's also a difference in the values that we have. Something that is very
important to me is maybe second in importance to someone who is from Germany
or from someone who is from Russia or even from like Zimbabwe or something,
so that difference of values will change and I don't know if that will positively or
negatively affect America but I feel like diversity is never a bad thing [laughs].
Also I think competitively the U.S. will become weakened if we don't have the
minds of a broad worldly way of thinking and that's kind of what we've survived
on anyways thus far.
AE: To play devil's advocate here do you think that it would be good for the
sending nations of these students to receive these students back into their country
so they can help develop their own country abroad?
WG: I really don't know. Maybe in some cases, but I feel like a lot of times also
and I read this from a book that's called The World is Flat that the brightest
students from many countries aspire to come here to the U.S. after they've
graduated high school or college to become the best here. I don't know if they
stay here or come back but the world is so connected now it's almost one in the
same. Like if this bright mind is in India or the bright mind is in the U.S., they're
probably doing work for both and both are benefitting and it's probably the same
individuals. I really don't know as much about that honestly, that aspect of it.
AE: Are there any laws in your county that affect undocumented students?
WG: Yes. I live in Forsyth County but I do a lot of the work in Yadkin County
and Yadkin County has what's called "Secure Communities". That's a policy
where if someone gets pulled over or something happens the police officers can
act as an immigration officer. Which sounds good, like "Secure Communities"
sounds like something that we would all support and in fact who doesn't want
safe communities, however the exact opposite is happening because we've
noticed and we've felt and we've witnessed and even studied and took polls and
surveys that this policy, with 287(g) has just allowed police officers to get away
with racial profiling. They see someone who is brown or they see a person of
color or someone who is Hispanic and they'll intentionally pull them over because
they assume that person is undocumented because they're of [sic] Latino descent.
Communities that should be secure are in fact in terror of police officers now.
And Yadkin County is one of them.
AE: What other laws affect undocumented students and their ability to go to
college?
WG: It varies by state. In North Carolina [pause] the only law I can think of
besides not having the DREAM Act is this House Bill called HBl 1 which has not
passed yet, it's still in the House as far as I know. If it was [sic] passed it would
ban undocumented students from community colleges, public universities. Other
than that the only law that's serving as a barrier is the out-of-state tuition
component of it. Which is like saying, "here, we'll accept you" but really not
allowing it [sic]. I mean I know if I had to pay out-of-state tuition I couldn't. My
friends who have been living here since they were two months, paying out-of-state
tuition, that's what's really killing us now.
AE: What do you think the reasoning is behind making undocumented students
pay out-of-state tuition from an administrative level?
WG: Probably to play it safe. The progressive part is that undocumented students
can go to college in North Carolina. The conservative part is they have to pay out-of-
state tuition. I view it as playing it safe, giving both sides something. Also in a
way would help the economy if people were doing it but it's so expensive that no
one's doing it [laughs].
AE: What do you feel most undocumented students have to do to pay this out-of-state
tuition if they are able to go to college?
WG: A strenuous search of scholarships that don't require a social security
number or they find sponsors, which I've only heard of like two people who
really in the entire state have found a sponsor to pay their way to college. So what
do they do to get around it? They try and try and try and usually they can't get
around it so they'll take like one or two classes a year and they'll be in college for
like twelve years.
AE: Do you think North Carolina is hostile to the immigrant population?
WG: Yes and no, depends on where in the state. For example, Durham, I feel like
is very welcome to all types of communities, whether it's undocumented, LGBT,
women, workers, but then there's places like Yadkinville which 1 have one of my
teams in that t consider hostile. To be undocumented there would be extremely
scary and it is scary because you're subject to any type of slurs, racial comments,
and even violence. It just depends on where you are in the state.
AE: What drew you to working with immigrant rights?
WG: It was my friends in high school. When my friend Elder had to go back to
Mexico when he graduated I was like, "I would like to somehow do something so
this doesn't happen to anyone else". When I went to UNC, it was the beginning of
the semester so all the clubs were having their interest meetings so I went to a few
and from what I felt and saw that there was nothing really happening as far as
immigrant rights and immigrant organizing from within UNC. So, I made a club. I
made my own club and I didn't really know what I was doing at first, a lot of
learning from mistakes, and it's where I met you, Ariel, and Wendy. It was
basically us three at the beginning.
AE: What have been your most significant experiences as an activist?
WG; There are [sic] a lot a lot of experiences that have been significant. But I
would say one of the most recent ones happened in Memphis about a month ago.
It was with this network called United We Dream, it was their national congress
so we had youth from all over the country gather in Memphis, Tennessee to
discuss how to stop the deportation of DREAMers. A lot of times throughout the
congress we were pushing and empowering undocumented youth to come out and
a lot of the empowerment and inspiration came from other undocumented youth.
But there was this one session that was created by this DREAMer named Jorge,
he wanted to create a space to merge two struggles and two opportunities at the
same time and that was LGBT rights and immigrant rights. This one guy named
Tony in front of like two hundred people for his first time ever came out as being
gay. In that space people who are undocumented looked at queer people as their
brother and sister and vice versa and those labels seemed to me to completely just
disappear. It felt so strong. I knew that the undocumented people would have the
gay people's back and the gay people would have the undocumented people's
back. There have [sic] also been a lot of other significant moments, but I think
one that's really interesting is to know where all of us have come from, a lot of
the regular everyday people doing great things. For example, Ariel, [laughs] so
when you see three hundred people marching from the pit at UNC through
downtown from one student's passion and like created it within a day that's what
we have in the movement over and over again, everyday people who are
extremely driven doing extraordinary things and I think that's really significant
and says a lot for our movement.
AE: Can you explain the concept of coming out of the shadows in the immigrant
rights movement and explain if that's been effective or not?
WG: First of all, the shadows. The shadows kind of mean, when someone's
undocumented they're not in any of the systems, they don't have documentation.
If they get a job they have to do it under the table. They have to oftentimes hide
from police officers. There's this whole sense of living in the shadows, living
underground. When someone comes out, they publically state that they're
undocumented and it's like them coming into the light, bringing their story,
bringing their physical face to the story and to public view. That's what it means
to come out of the shadows. The importance of that, I feel like it has completely
driven our movement and our movement would not be here at all if
undocumented youth did not have the amount of courage that they have to be
coming out like they do. I really think that that has been the feet of our movement,
meaning like it's taking the movement forward, and our movement would
probably be a shell of a movement without it.
AE: What type of actions have you been involved with in North Carolina and do
you think they've made any sort of impact in the state?
WG: I was indirectly involved in this hunger strike that took place in downtown
Raleigh. Three courageous, strong, undocumented women went twelve days
without eating food and slept outside of the Capitol building on the grass across
the street in a tent to get Senator Kay Hagan to vote "yes" on the DREAM Act.
That action was so significant because it was the first time where everyone knew
where they could find someone who was undocumented. People would come up
to them and be like, "this is what undocumented looks like" and sometimes it was
dangerous and angry statements that would come out, but because of them, it put
North Carolina on the DREAM Act as a stand-alone movement put them on the
map for that. Also, Kay Hagan read the bill because of them and all the media and
the community that was built up around that.
AE: Do you think that there's any sort of conflict within the movement?
WG: I mean of course there is [sic]. A movement that involves so many people
and so many lives that are on the line, everyone is so passionate about getting it
done right that there's disagreements. In any movement there are [sic] going to be
disagreements. In the immigration movement, there's sometimes difference of
[sic] opinions on comprehensive immigration reform versus relief for a smaller
population, such as just farmers or just student youth or just single mothers or
something like that. There are [sic] also conflicts on how allies fit into the
movement, people who are citizens or permanent residents, how they fit into the
movement versus how undocumented people fit into the movement But again all
of it [pause] is out of true passion, some of it is out of desperation, anger, which
again is completely understandable because it's lives we're talking about. It's not
just a game, it's not just a campaign it's not just an action or just a media hit when
someone's sharing their story. It's their story, it's real. When they leave the
platform, their story doesn't end. It's still real to that individual if they're
undocumented. The same thing for the allies, which I think is the biggest conflict
right now, is this whole allies versus undocumented. Unfortunately there's the
"versus" there. But we're pushing through it.
AE: How would you say the movement has grown or changed since the
beginning? When did the movement really take off in North Carolina?
WG: I feel like I'm still a newbie, honestly to the immigration movement. It's
been going on for decades now. But when I started, the movement was very, in
my eyes and my scope is very small because when I started I only knew what I
basically heard at trainings, so my scope was only that training, the movement
now at least in North Carolina is very very community led. People who are
leaders now are people who are directly affected or have come directly from the
community. A lot of the new leaders are beginners and I think the youth have
really stepped up. I think beforehand it might have been more of grown-ups, and
then youth doing some of the legwork, but now it's like no, youth have decided to
not only want to do the legwork but they want to do a lot of the inside-mind,
decision making, strategizing, planning, work of it. Which is beautiful; when one
youth steps up, it pushes all of us to step up around them. So the youth have
completely totally taken over in a positive way, have created their own space,
their own table in North Carolina for immigrant rights. They're actually getting a
lot of things done. That's the change I've seen.
AE: What would you say to those people who argue that undocumented students
are taking up a seat for a citizen in the university system?
WG: I think that it's an easy talking point to fall into, like "oh my gosh, yes they
are taking something from you!" But honestly, when someone is getting
something it doesn't mean something is taking away from anybody else.
Personally I think it's a weak statement. But the thing is, if you get accepted by
the university, then you were given that seat, you're not taking it. So when
someone else is like, "they have that seat and I don't", well, it's because you
didn't get accepted into the university. Universities want the best. The United
States wants the best, it aspires to be the best and oftentimes boasts that it already
is the best. When you have someone who's undocumented in college it's because
they earned that spot, not because they took it from anybody, but it's like their
rightful place. I often think that if there's an undocumented person and men a
citizen, if they want to go to college, both of them can, it doesn't have to be only
one or the other.
AE: How do you feel the political environment is currently towards
undocumented students?
WG: I think politically in the eyes of the legislators we've done a great great job
of putting a very positive face to the undocumented student, in their eyes. But
then of course there are [sic] these other organizations that are anti-immigrant,
they'll always be anti-immigrant, but as far as politically, I feel like we have
several legislators in the House and in the Senate who are down with DREAMers
even if they're not supporting us with their votes, which is a problem. They
support us internally in their hearts, which is a foot in the right direction. 1 don't
know if that answers your question. I think that at first we had this sense of
undocumented people didn't have a say in democracy because they can't vote, but
undocumented people have been getting smarter and registering people. They're
registering a lot of people to vote and in key states where it'll come out to be the
undocumented people were the reason why a state went one way and not the
other. They completely can participate in a democratic country and they have
been all along anyways.
AE: Why do you think some of these legislators as you said were "down with the
DREAMers" aren't voting necessarily in their favor?
WG: Well probably because of the obvious thing you hear a lot, that they want to
be reelected. They might think or feel that their constituency doesn't support it,
even though they do. An example of that, or kind of like a reverse example, is that
this one Senator, I don't remember where she was from, maybe Kansas or Idaho,
was not going to vote for the DREAM Act, but she personally was completely for
it to the point of during the day of the vote she was in tears. She decided to vote
"yes" even though her constituency was telling her to vote "no". Why do I think
that these people are not voting? Because they want to get reelected, they want to
maintain a certain image to their constituencies. Maybe some of their funding is
from conservative hands, there are [sic] lots of reasons but I mean, none of them
are humane answers that are going to be like, "oh okay, now we understand".
AE: What do you think is going to be the toughest obstacle for undocumented
students concerning education in the future?
WG: The toughest obstacle concerning education? [pause] I don't know I feel like
we're at our toughest obstacle right now, which is the obstacle of not being able to
go. [pause] If the doors were to open free at a DREAM Act level, or at an in-state
level in North Carolina, I think the next obstacle might be the threats of such laws
and policies to be taken back after people have gotten assimilated into the
colleges. I think that would be a horrible obstacle. Right now, I think we're at our
toughest obstacle.
AE: One final question, what do you think the future holds for the DREAM Act,
for undocumented students going to school and for comprehensive immigration
reform in general? Do you see it going in a positive view a negative view and
what do you think specifically may happen?
WG: I think right now the "antis" and the conservative people and even the
Republicans all are gunning for their moment. When we add up the negative
things, it always seems to be really bad. But at the same time because of all of our
leaders on the ground we've totally stopped Arizona copycats in many states, we
have in-state now in a lot of states. I think that the future is going to be positive as
far as legislation goes. I honestly do. The President still has the DREAM Act in
his mouth on his mind and even on his campaign. The DREAM Act is about to be
reintroduced again this year and they know they have to give us something. They
know that all of the undocumented immigrants who came here a long time ago
and had children here are going to be voting citizens soon. They need to do
something or their ass is grass [laughs]. I totally see positive, pro-immigrant
legislation soon, at least administrative relief this year or the start of
administrative relief this year especially coming up with the elections.
AE: Thank you very much, Wooten.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Activistas por la justicia social; organizadores comunitarios
Es: Género de entrevistado
Hombre
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Wooten Gough es un organizador comunitario que ha estado trabajando recientemente para la Coalición Latinoamericana y lidera el grupos de jóvenes en el Condado de Yadkin. Gough es el co-fundador de Estudiantes Unidos por la Igualdad de los Inmigrantes en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill, la cual él formó después de asistir a cursos de formación y de trabajar en la campaña por la Reforma Migratoria para América (RIFA, Reform Immigration for America). Gough abandonó su segundo semestre en la universidad para hacer el "camino de los sueños" (Trail of DREAMS) hacia Washington D.C. en apoyo de la ley para la reforma migratoria de los jóvenes soñadores (DREAM Act). Él fue arrestado por participar en una protesta en la Casa Blanca en 2010. En esta entrevista, Gough describe la comunidad en la cual creció y cómo los amigos que hizo le animaron a participar en el movimiento pro-inmigrante. Gough habla sobre las desigualdades que enfrentan sus estudiantes indocumentados en el sistema educativo y si los que trabajan en la escuela sabían o no de la situación de los estudiantes. Wooten también habla sobre la ley DREAM y varias leyes que afectan a los estudiantes indocumentados.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Wooten Gough por Ariel Eure, 20 Mayo 2011, R-0491, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Activismo; Ciudadanía e inmigración; Movimiento de jóvenes 'Soñadores' y Acción Diferida
Es: Transcripción
Ariel Eure: I'm here with Wooten Gough a community organizer and participant
in the immigrant rights movement in North Carolina. Wooten, where were you
born?
Wooten Gough: Winston-Salem, North Carolina, U.S.A.
AE: And where did you grow up?
WG: Eastbend, North Carolina, also U.S.A.
AE: How far have you gone in school?
WG: Uh, one semester, first year of college, probably.
AE: Where did you go to college?
WG: I went to UNC Chapel Hill.
AE: Why did you only stay at UNC for that first year?
WG: Interesting question Ariel. I ended up walking to Washington D.C. with a
group of students called the Trail of Dreams.
AE: How far did your parents go in school?
WG: Both my mother and father have an Associate's degree. So that's how far
they went.
AE: How do you think your parents felt about the importance of education?
WG: Well my mom cares. Education is very important to her. She freaked out
when I left UNC. My father, I don't really know how he feels about education or
anything to be honest with you.
AE: Did you grow up around a significantly Latino population?
WG: Not when I was young. I didn't really start hanging out with a lot of Latino
people until I was in high school.
AE: Why do you think so many Latinos have been migrating to the United States
and North Carolina specifically?
WG: Well probably many reasons. One of them is the opportunities here, right?
So jobs that immigrants can get or are solicited. I know from Yadkinville at least
like the farmers need people to pick their crops and sow their crops and tend to
the fields and immigrants come here to do that work to provide for their families.
Another situation could be for survival. I know like Colombia if you stay there
your ass is grass. So people, all of my Colombian friends have like left guerrilla
warfare, which I would have done the same thing. Now why they come to North
Carolina is beyond me because I would go to California personally. But I think
also North Carolina is still kind of in the farming industry, I don't know if that's a
real industry but some type of field because I think that's where a lot of our
workers here are [sic] in like the plowing, the sowing, the picking and all the
crops. That's what I assume.
AE: For those migrants who don't work with agriculture, what kind of jobs do
they tend to have in North Carolina?
WG: I see a lot of immigrants working in the restaurant businesses, usually busing
the tables or even being the waiter or waitress, and usually of Mexican
restaurants. I know that's stereotypical but Mexican restaurants tend to be hiring
more Latinos and immigrants that other restaurants. At least that's what I've
noticed.
AE: When did you learn what it meant to be undocumented? Or even the word
''undocumented"?
WG: Well I heard of the word "undocumented" in the year 2009.1 heard "no
papers" before then when I was in high school but the actual word undocumented
I didn't hear until about 2009.1 didn't really understand what it meant then. I
thought it was just a Latino thing and not like an immigration issue, broad, but
what I gathered at that moment was that I just saw my friends couldn't do the
things that I could do because of that word, because they were undocumented.
AE: Could you talk a little about the campaign to start using the word
"undocumented" instead of "illegal" when referring to people without papers?
WG: Which campaign?
AE: The "Drop the I-Word Campaign".
WG: Okay, cool. So actually my friend started that campaign, her name is Loan.
She lives in Charlotte, North Carolina. She wanted to do the "Drop the 1-Word
Campaign" because she's very into inclusivity and using language that doesn't
oppress certain communities. So, it's more than dropping the word "illegal" and I
say that with finger quotations, it's dropping any kind of language that implies
"illegal", like criminal or something that's dehumanizing. I think that's it's
awesome because it kind of, well it's at least a stepping stone to talking to
someone to let [sic] them see undocumented people in a different light.
AE: Did you have any undocumented friends growing up in your community?
WG: Yeah, I knew of like three or four but there probably were several many
others that hid that they were undocumented [sic]. When I was in high school,
three of my very very very close friends, I'm not going to say their last names, but
Elder, Areli and Elibeth, were undocumented and I [sic] went to four years of
high school with them. So I was kind of already past the growing up part, but they
were definitely in my life for years.
AE: Why do you think those other students who were undocumented chose to
hide their status as opposed to your friends that you knew about?
WG: Because it's this huge secret. The fear is that if someone knows you're
undocumented you're going to get deported, that immigration is going to come
after you. They're going to come after your families. So to keep everyone safe
around you and to keep yourself safe you just don't talk about it. Also I think
because we lived in a very very very small town with a lot of [pause] um people
who don't experience other types of people. It just further [pause] assured them
not to say it to anyone because of where we lived.
AE: How is your undocumented friends' education different from yours?
WG: Well, first of all [pause] when I was in high school, the things that I had to
think about were different, right? So what I was in high school for was different
than my undocumented friend Elder. When I was in high school I didn't have to
worry about what am I going to do when I graduate? For me, the answer was
always to go to college. It wasn't even a question. I never had to worry about it,
but to him, it was a question such as "am I going to go back to Mexico, am I
going to stay here, what am I going to do? Am I going to try to find a job under
the table?" And that was just him. I'm sure that some students might think about,
"well am 1 even going to stay in high school? Am I going to leave it now? Why
am I even here if I can't go to college? Why would I go to college if I can't get a
degree?" None of those questions ever popped up in my mind. My education was
just way easier because I didn't have to deal with that. My college education is
also different in financial aspects, like I can get federal financial aid and my
undocumented friends could not. I could at least apply to any school and my
undocumented friends couldn't. I think that a financial burden was not really there
for me and it sure is for them [laughing].
AE: Do you believe it's pretty difficult for undocumented students to stay
motivated in high school? And if so what do you think are solutions to keep them
motivated and to keep them continuing their education?
WG: I know that I would be very unmotivated if I was undocumented and I was
in high school. If I knew that I couldn't get a license, I couldn't get a job, I
couldn't do anything, I was brought here at a young age and wasn't really a part
of that decision making process, and all these people the people around me
doesn't even know me, hearing on the news that I'm this and I'm that, and usually
all bad things, I would be so discouraged to even care. Who knows that I would
do? I wouldn't be motivated to wake up in the morning to go. I wouldn't be
motivated to try to push myself in any type of positive direction. I'd probably just
sleep all day. Negative alternatives would become easier, like getting into gangs
would become easier because people would probably understand my point of
view in a gang because they might be like me, feeling depressed and feeling like
they just don't belong. So yeah, I totally would not be motivated and I think
undocumented students go through that when they're in high school. A solution?
It would be really strenuous to talk to every undocumented person one-on-one.
But something that I know Forbush High School has is this thing called "early
college". You leave eighth grade and you do like a college/high school
combination for five years. When you graduate after that fifth year you get your
high school diploma and an Associate's degree. It's not this whole you have to
apply as a separate thing and that. It's constitutionally guaranteed for everyone as
if it was just high school. That's something that I hear being thrown around or
I've heard being thrown around is that to go into the eighth grade classes and give
those types of teach-ins or seminars to parents and students. If you're
undocumented you can get a college education and you can get it for free or for a
high school fee by doing the whole "early college" thing.
AE: Did their teachers in high school, the teachers of your undocumented friends,
know about their situation?
WG: [pause] Well, when I was in high school, I'm not sure if the teachers knew
about it. I know now though, since I've gone back into the high schools in my
home county that some of them do. The Spanish teacher does, the ESL teacher
definitely does, and I made sure to talk to the guidance counselor, and they
already knew. Which is a plus, because usually guidance counselors don't even
know. But what happens is none of the teachers know so when a kid who is
undocumented but still has hope and wants to try and they go talk to a teacher and
they say "well I don't have my papers", oftentimes the teacher and/or guidance
counselor tells them just to stop because there's nothing they can do, when there
is. When I was in high school, I'm not sure if they knew, but I know now that
some of them do know about the whole "undocumented" and the students in the
school who are undocumented. It's a plus.
AE: Did your undocumented friends in high school see college as an option in
their future or did they see working or returning back home as more realistic of an
option?
WG: It was more realistic for my undocumented friends to think about going back
to Mexico or finding an off-the-wall job here. But I think that of all of my friends
only one person got a job here and everyone else went back to Mexico. Some of
the students that I have worked with in the past that are in high school now are
telling me if something doesn't happen like the DREAM Act of administrative
relief by the president, they will also go back to their home country, somehow,
because they don't want to like physically be here but can't do anything else.
AE: In your opinion, what is the value or receiving a college degree as an
undocumented student even if you may not be able to legally use that degree in
the future?
WG: What is the value? [pause] I don't know, I don't even know if that can be
measured. I mean the monetary value is really high because shit's really
expensive but [pause] sorry, I'm trying to think of how I want to answer this.
AE: Would you say that it's worth it for an undocumented student to get a college
degree?
WG: I think that it's better to definitely strive to get a college degree just because
if something does happen you have that. Like if you were stopped or sent back to
your home country you have a degree under your belt so that's always good. Or if
something happens in this country you then have a degree. I don't know this but
maybe private corporations can hire undocumented people, I'm not really sure
about that at all. I really just now am thinking that. I have no idea. But it'd be a
huge accomplishment. Actually, two weeks ago the first undocumented student
that we know of graduated from law school, which is pretty awesome. His name
is Jose and he's from Florida.
AE: Can you explain what the DREAM Act is and why it is significant in the
movement?
WG: Yes. There's been several versions of the DREAM Act, but the DREAM
Act mat a lot of us campaigned for recently, that version is a piece of legislation
that would provide a ten-year pathway to citizenship if undocumented
students... first of all reached all of the qualifications such as they've had to have
graduated from a high school in the U.S., they've had to be here at least since they
were sixteen or before they were sixteen, I don't remember that point, and then
they have to go through two years of college or two years of military service and
then during [sic] that ten years they'd be like a fake permanent resident. They
would get a green card and license as if you're a permanent resident and then you
become a citizen within ten years. That's extremely important because we have
all these kids here and it's unrealistic to say we're going to deport everybody. We
have to fix something. We need something comprehensive, something really big,
and the DREAM Act is important because it could lead to that. Also the DREAM
Act is important because we have all these lives waiting on the line that are ready
to move forward and honestly the U.S. could totally benefit from something like
the DREAM Act passing, these bright students, or even your average student,
because everyone has something to contribute if given the chance. That's what the
DREAM Act would do, give the ones who want to contribute a chance to give
back.
AE: It's been said that the DREAM Act is being reintroduced this year. What do
you think are the chances that it'll pass even though it failed to pass in the Senate
in December of 2010?
WG: I think that the chances of it passing this year are [sic] very slim. We have
thirty-two Senators that signed onto a letter recently, but we only have fifty yes
votes if it were to come up right now. The House is very Republican like super-majority,
so I don't see it passing this year. But it is awesome that it's coming
back up. That's good, it's still on everyone's mind. Obama actually recently
created an ad and he's using the DREAM Act somewhat as a platform for his
campaign. He said something like "Obama supports the DREAM Act" and side
note underneath that "click here if you want to donate money", which is
interesting because he's promoting the DREAM Act to get money from his
campaign and someone came out with an article saying "you can't fool us, we
want the DREAM Act and we're not going to give your money for your campaign
because you're talking about the DREAM Act". I don't think it's going to pass to
be honest this year, not the DREAM Act. We need something administrative,
straight from Obama that we don't have to rely on Congress to pass through first.
AE: [mumble] The superstars almost in this movement for the DREAM Act have
been very exceptional students in school, active in community service and
extracurricular activities, just very bright students. Do you feel that those students
who are kind of the forerunners of this movement, is that a common thing, or do
you think that these are exactly what they are, exceptional students, and that the
majority of undocumented students don't have the same kind of academic,
extracurricular, community service success as the people who are in the spotlight
in this movement do?
WG: I'm glad that you asked this question because a lot of those exceptional
student leaders that you bring up or talk about say that they feel [pause] wrong
sometimes promoting just that face. They feel like the iminigrant youth
population has to put on this face of being perfect all the time. In a way, even
though we're trying to humanize undocumented youth, it's dehumanizing as well
to show that they can't falter. A lot of stories popped up over last year especially,
DREAM Act coming up for a vote, and we saw alt these amazing youth and how
they excelled, and they spoke like seven languages, and they want to build music
therapy centers for autistic children, and all these great and wonderful things. But
the reality is, that there's a lot of undocumented youth here that are like your
typical high schooler. That's the other face. The youth that I work with, or used to
work with in Yadkin County, they're just like me when I was in high school.
They're just like my sister who was in high school. Some of them are doing great
things but some of them are also doing, well some of them are doing exceptional
things but some of them are doing great things that are normal for their age as
well. I think that we kind of overlook them in search for that perfect immigrant.
AE: What do you think the effect of losing DREAM students in the future may
be, whether they start increasing deportations of these students or these students
start returning back home because they don't have many options in the U.S.? How
do you think that is going to alter U.S. society, if it will alter it at all?
WG: Well it would alter it in many ways and I think that we won't notice it at
first. I learned through my friends who are different nationalities than me that
there's also a difference in the values that we have. Something that is very
important to me is maybe second in importance to someone who is from Germany
or from someone who is from Russia or even from like Zimbabwe or something,
so that difference of values will change and I don't know if that will positively or
negatively affect America but I feel like diversity is never a bad thing [laughs].
Also I think competitively the U.S. will become weakened if we don't have the
minds of a broad worldly way of thinking and that's kind of what we've survived
on anyways thus far.
AE: To play devil's advocate here do you think that it would be good for the
sending nations of these students to receive these students back into their country
so they can help develop their own country abroad?
WG: I really don't know. Maybe in some cases, but I feel like a lot of times also
and I read this from a book that's called The World is Flat that the brightest
students from many countries aspire to come here to the U.S. after they've
graduated high school or college to become the best here. I don't know if they
stay here or come back but the world is so connected now it's almost one in the
same. Like if this bright mind is in India or the bright mind is in the U.S., they're
probably doing work for both and both are benefitting and it's probably the same
individuals. I really don't know as much about that honestly, that aspect of it.
AE: Are there any laws in your county that affect undocumented students?
WG: Yes. I live in Forsyth County but I do a lot of the work in Yadkin County
and Yadkin County has what's called "Secure Communities". That's a policy
where if someone gets pulled over or something happens the police officers can
act as an immigration officer. Which sounds good, like "Secure Communities"
sounds like something that we would all support and in fact who doesn't want
safe communities, however the exact opposite is happening because we've
noticed and we've felt and we've witnessed and even studied and took polls and
surveys that this policy, with 287(g) has just allowed police officers to get away
with racial profiling. They see someone who is brown or they see a person of
color or someone who is Hispanic and they'll intentionally pull them over because
they assume that person is undocumented because they're of [sic] Latino descent.
Communities that should be secure are in fact in terror of police officers now.
And Yadkin County is one of them.
AE: What other laws affect undocumented students and their ability to go to
college?
WG: It varies by state. In North Carolina [pause] the only law I can think of
besides not having the DREAM Act is this House Bill called HBl 1 which has not
passed yet, it's still in the House as far as I know. If it was [sic] passed it would
ban undocumented students from community colleges, public universities. Other
than that the only law that's serving as a barrier is the out-of-state tuition
component of it. Which is like saying, "here, we'll accept you" but really not
allowing it [sic]. I mean I know if I had to pay out-of-state tuition I couldn't. My
friends who have been living here since they were two months, paying out-of-state
tuition, that's what's really killing us now.
AE: What do you think the reasoning is behind making undocumented students
pay out-of-state tuition from an administrative level?
WG: Probably to play it safe. The progressive part is that undocumented students
can go to college in North Carolina. The conservative part is they have to pay out-of-
state tuition. I view it as playing it safe, giving both sides something. Also in a
way would help the economy if people were doing it but it's so expensive that no
one's doing it [laughs].
AE: What do you feel most undocumented students have to do to pay this out-of-state
tuition if they are able to go to college?
WG: A strenuous search of scholarships that don't require a social security
number or they find sponsors, which I've only heard of like two people who
really in the entire state have found a sponsor to pay their way to college. So what
do they do to get around it? They try and try and try and usually they can't get
around it so they'll take like one or two classes a year and they'll be in college for
like twelve years.
AE: Do you think North Carolina is hostile to the immigrant population?
WG: Yes and no, depends on where in the state. For example, Durham, I feel like
is very welcome to all types of communities, whether it's undocumented, LGBT,
women, workers, but then there's places like Yadkinville which 1 have one of my
teams in that t consider hostile. To be undocumented there would be extremely
scary and it is scary because you're subject to any type of slurs, racial comments,
and even violence. It just depends on where you are in the state.
AE: What drew you to working with immigrant rights?
WG: It was my friends in high school. When my friend Elder had to go back to
Mexico when he graduated I was like, "I would like to somehow do something so
this doesn't happen to anyone else". When I went to UNC, it was the beginning of
the semester so all the clubs were having their interest meetings so I went to a few
and from what I felt and saw that there was nothing really happening as far as
immigrant rights and immigrant organizing from within UNC. So, I made a club. I
made my own club and I didn't really know what I was doing at first, a lot of
learning from mistakes, and it's where I met you, Ariel, and Wendy. It was
basically us three at the beginning.
AE: What have been your most significant experiences as an activist?
WG; There are [sic] a lot a lot of experiences that have been significant. But I
would say one of the most recent ones happened in Memphis about a month ago.
It was with this network called United We Dream, it was their national congress
so we had youth from all over the country gather in Memphis, Tennessee to
discuss how to stop the deportation of DREAMers. A lot of times throughout the
congress we were pushing and empowering undocumented youth to come out and
a lot of the empowerment and inspiration came from other undocumented youth.
But there was this one session that was created by this DREAMer named Jorge,
he wanted to create a space to merge two struggles and two opportunities at the
same time and that was LGBT rights and immigrant rights. This one guy named
Tony in front of like two hundred people for his first time ever came out as being
gay. In that space people who are undocumented looked at queer people as their
brother and sister and vice versa and those labels seemed to me to completely just
disappear. It felt so strong. I knew that the undocumented people would have the
gay people's back and the gay people would have the undocumented people's
back. There have [sic] also been a lot of other significant moments, but I think
one that's really interesting is to know where all of us have come from, a lot of
the regular everyday people doing great things. For example, Ariel, [laughs] so
when you see three hundred people marching from the pit at UNC through
downtown from one student's passion and like created it within a day that's what
we have in the movement over and over again, everyday people who are
extremely driven doing extraordinary things and I think that's really significant
and says a lot for our movement.
AE: Can you explain the concept of coming out of the shadows in the immigrant
rights movement and explain if that's been effective or not?
WG: First of all, the shadows. The shadows kind of mean, when someone's
undocumented they're not in any of the systems, they don't have documentation.
If they get a job they have to do it under the table. They have to oftentimes hide
from police officers. There's this whole sense of living in the shadows, living
underground. When someone comes out, they publically state that they're
undocumented and it's like them coming into the light, bringing their story,
bringing their physical face to the story and to public view. That's what it means
to come out of the shadows. The importance of that, I feel like it has completely
driven our movement and our movement would not be here at all if
undocumented youth did not have the amount of courage that they have to be
coming out like they do. I really think that that has been the feet of our movement,
meaning like it's taking the movement forward, and our movement would
probably be a shell of a movement without it.
AE: What type of actions have you been involved with in North Carolina and do
you think they've made any sort of impact in the state?
WG: I was indirectly involved in this hunger strike that took place in downtown
Raleigh. Three courageous, strong, undocumented women went twelve days
without eating food and slept outside of the Capitol building on the grass across
the street in a tent to get Senator Kay Hagan to vote "yes" on the DREAM Act.
That action was so significant because it was the first time where everyone knew
where they could find someone who was undocumented. People would come up
to them and be like, "this is what undocumented looks like" and sometimes it was
dangerous and angry statements that would come out, but because of them, it put
North Carolina on the DREAM Act as a stand-alone movement put them on the
map for that. Also, Kay Hagan read the bill because of them and all the media and
the community that was built up around that.
AE: Do you think that there's any sort of conflict within the movement?
WG: I mean of course there is [sic]. A movement that involves so many people
and so many lives that are on the line, everyone is so passionate about getting it
done right that there's disagreements. In any movement there are [sic] going to be
disagreements. In the immigration movement, there's sometimes difference of
[sic] opinions on comprehensive immigration reform versus relief for a smaller
population, such as just farmers or just student youth or just single mothers or
something like that. There are [sic] also conflicts on how allies fit into the
movement, people who are citizens or permanent residents, how they fit into the
movement versus how undocumented people fit into the movement But again all
of it [pause] is out of true passion, some of it is out of desperation, anger, which
again is completely understandable because it's lives we're talking about. It's not
just a game, it's not just a campaign it's not just an action or just a media hit when
someone's sharing their story. It's their story, it's real. When they leave the
platform, their story doesn't end. It's still real to that individual if they're
undocumented. The same thing for the allies, which I think is the biggest conflict
right now, is this whole allies versus undocumented. Unfortunately there's the
"versus" there. But we're pushing through it.
AE: How would you say the movement has grown or changed since the
beginning? When did the movement really take off in North Carolina?
WG: I feel like I'm still a newbie, honestly to the immigration movement. It's
been going on for decades now. But when I started, the movement was very, in
my eyes and my scope is very small because when I started I only knew what I
basically heard at trainings, so my scope was only that training, the movement
now at least in North Carolina is very very community led. People who are
leaders now are people who are directly affected or have come directly from the
community. A lot of the new leaders are beginners and I think the youth have
really stepped up. I think beforehand it might have been more of grown-ups, and
then youth doing some of the legwork, but now it's like no, youth have decided to
not only want to do the legwork but they want to do a lot of the inside-mind,
decision making, strategizing, planning, work of it. Which is beautiful; when one
youth steps up, it pushes all of us to step up around them. So the youth have
completely totally taken over in a positive way, have created their own space,
their own table in North Carolina for immigrant rights. They're actually getting a
lot of things done. That's the change I've seen.
AE: What would you say to those people who argue that undocumented students
are taking up a seat for a citizen in the university system?
WG: I think that it's an easy talking point to fall into, like "oh my gosh, yes they
are taking something from you!" But honestly, when someone is getting
something it doesn't mean something is taking away from anybody else.
Personally I think it's a weak statement. But the thing is, if you get accepted by
the university, then you were given that seat, you're not taking it. So when
someone else is like, "they have that seat and I don't", well, it's because you
didn't get accepted into the university. Universities want the best. The United
States wants the best, it aspires to be the best and oftentimes boasts that it already
is the best. When you have someone who's undocumented in college it's because
they earned that spot, not because they took it from anybody, but it's like their
rightful place. I often think that if there's an undocumented person and men a
citizen, if they want to go to college, both of them can, it doesn't have to be only
one or the other.
AE: How do you feel the political environment is currently towards
undocumented students?
WG: I think politically in the eyes of the legislators we've done a great great job
of putting a very positive face to the undocumented student, in their eyes. But
then of course there are [sic] these other organizations that are anti-immigrant,
they'll always be anti-immigrant, but as far as politically, I feel like we have
several legislators in the House and in the Senate who are down with DREAMers
even if they're not supporting us with their votes, which is a problem. They
support us internally in their hearts, which is a foot in the right direction. 1 don't
know if that answers your question. I think that at first we had this sense of
undocumented people didn't have a say in democracy because they can't vote, but
undocumented people have been getting smarter and registering people. They're
registering a lot of people to vote and in key states where it'll come out to be the
undocumented people were the reason why a state went one way and not the
other. They completely can participate in a democratic country and they have
been all along anyways.
AE: Why do you think some of these legislators as you said were "down with the
DREAMers" aren't voting necessarily in their favor?
WG: Well probably because of the obvious thing you hear a lot, that they want to
be reelected. They might think or feel that their constituency doesn't support it,
even though they do. An example of that, or kind of like a reverse example, is that
this one Senator, I don't remember where she was from, maybe Kansas or Idaho,
was not going to vote for the DREAM Act, but she personally was completely for
it to the point of during the day of the vote she was in tears. She decided to vote
"yes" even though her constituency was telling her to vote "no". Why do I think
that these people are not voting? Because they want to get reelected, they want to
maintain a certain image to their constituencies. Maybe some of their funding is
from conservative hands, there are [sic] lots of reasons but I mean, none of them
are humane answers that are going to be like, "oh okay, now we understand".
AE: What do you think is going to be the toughest obstacle for undocumented
students concerning education in the future?
WG: The toughest obstacle concerning education? [pause] I don't know I feel like
we're at our toughest obstacle right now, which is the obstacle of not being able to
go. [pause] If the doors were to open free at a DREAM Act level, or at an in-state
level in North Carolina, I think the next obstacle might be the threats of such laws
and policies to be taken back after people have gotten assimilated into the
colleges. I think that would be a horrible obstacle. Right now, I think we're at our
toughest obstacle.
AE: One final question, what do you think the future holds for the DREAM Act,
for undocumented students going to school and for comprehensive immigration
reform in general? Do you see it going in a positive view a negative view and
what do you think specifically may happen?
WG: I think right now the "antis" and the conservative people and even the
Republicans all are gunning for their moment. When we add up the negative
things, it always seems to be really bad. But at the same time because of all of our
leaders on the ground we've totally stopped Arizona copycats in many states, we
have in-state now in a lot of states. I think that the future is going to be positive as
far as legislation goes. I honestly do. The President still has the DREAM Act in
his mouth on his mind and even on his campaign. The DREAM Act is about to be
reintroduced again this year and they know they have to give us something. They
know that all of the undocumented immigrants who came here a long time ago
and had children here are going to be voting citizens soon. They need to do
something or their ass is grass [laughs]. I totally see positive, pro-immigrant
legislation soon, at least administrative relief this year or the start of
administrative relief this year especially coming up with the elections.
AE: Thank you very much, Wooten.
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
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R-0491 -- Gough, Wooten.
Description
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Wooten Gough is a community organizer who has recently been working for the Latin American Coalition and leading youth groups in Yadkin County. Gough is the co-founder of Students United for Immigrant Equality at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, which he formed after attended trainings and working with the Reform Immigration for America (RIFA) Campaign. Gough withdrew from his second semester at UNC to walk the Trail of DREAMS to Washington D.C. in support of the DREAM Act. He was arrested for participating in a sit-in at the White House in 2010. In this interview, Gough describes the community he grew up in and how the friends he made encouraged his participation in the immigrant rights movement. Gough talks about inequalities his undocumented students faced in the education system and whether or not those employed at the school knew of the students' situation. Wooten also speaks about the DREAM Act and of various laws that affect undocumented students.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
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No restrictions. Open to research.
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20 May 2011
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R0491_Audio.mp3
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/15773">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>