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https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/88b943810c0094662bc5233abfac331d.mp3
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https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/f2c04a7cf33d10696907de506d85b5bc.pdf
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SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-1006
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
Fecha
2023-05-26
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Briceño, Adolfo.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Administrator
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1972
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Male
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Mérida -- Yucatan -- México
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Clemmons -- Forsyth County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-89.6237402 20.9670759),1972,1;POINT(-80.3819984 36.0215258),2006,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Velásquez, Daniel.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Adolfo Briceño is Program Manager of Human Relations and Diversity, Equity and Inclusion at the City of Winston-Salem. He shares his early life experience in Mérida, Mexico, where he was born and educated. Having studied economics, he grew disillusioned with the field while working as a mortgage analyst at a Cancún bank and switched careers to become a journalist for El Diario de Yucatán. During his tenure there, Adolfo was approached with a job opportunity by Qué Pasa, a North Carolina-based newsletter serving the state’s Spanish-speaking community. After five years at Qué Pasa, he again switched careers to work in fair housing investigation and landlord-tenant mediation for the City of Winston-Salem. Though his duties have expanded, he still works in this role today. Adolfo shares several stories from his time as a journalist, including his coverage of deportation, and imparts his thoughts on discrimination in the US drawn from his experiences in local government.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Adolfo Briceño by Daniel Velásquez, 26 May 2023, R-1006, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29334
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Community and social services and programs; Integration and segregation; Labor and employment; Leadership; Migratory experience
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Administrador
Es: Género de entrevistado
Hombre
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Adolfo Briceño es Director del Programa de Relaciones Humanas y Diversidad, Equidad e Inclusión de la ciudad de Winston-Salem. Comparte sus primeras experiencias de vida en Mérida (México), donde nació y se educó. Tras estudiar economía, se desilusionó con este campo mientras trabajaba como analista hipotecario en un banco de Cancún y cambió de profesión para convertirse en periodista de El Diario de Yucatán. Durante su estancia allí, Adolfo recibió una oferta de trabajo de Qué Pasa, un boletín de Carolina del Norte que sirve a la comunidad hispanohablante del estado. Transcurridos cinco años en Qué Pasa, volvió a cambiar de profesión para trabajar en el Ayuntamiento de Winston-Salem en el campo de la investigación sobre vivienda justa y la mediación entre propietarios e inquilinos. Aunque sus funciones se han ampliado, sigue desempeñando este papel en la actualidad. Adolfo comparte varias anécdotas de su tiempo como periodista, incluyendo su cobertura de la deportación, e imparte sus reflexiones sobre la discriminación en los EE.UU. basados en sus experiencias en el gobierno local.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Adolfo Briceño por Daniel Velásquez, 26 May 2023, R-1006, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Experiencia migratoria; Integración y segregación; Liderazgo; Programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios; Trabajo y empleo
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Daniel Velásquez: Okay, I am Daniel Velásquez. I'm here with Adolfo Briceño, who is Program Manager of Human Relations and Diversity, Equity and Inclusion at the City of Winston-Salem. Today is May 26th of 2023, and we are conducting this via Zoom. Adolfo, thank you so much for being with us today and for sharing your story.
Adolfo Briceño: My pleasure, Daniel. My pleasure.
DV: Okay, Adolfo, to get started, could you tell me about your personal background, where you were born and raised, any early life experiences that you want to share?
AB: Yeah, sure. I was born in Mérida, Yucatán in Mexico. This is on the Yucatán Peninsula. I was born according to my birth certificate, right. Neither of us has a memory of that event, that momentous event, right, but my birth certificate says that I was born on the sixth of June 1972 in Mérida, Yucatán, which has been the, it is still, it has been traditional in the state capital of Yucatán. So, I was born there. My father has my same name. You know, in our countries, we, so he's Adolfo Enrique Briceño Acosta. That's my father's name. My mother's is Jader Lisbeth Medina Cano. Those were my parents. My father was always like a public employee. He worked for several state and federal agencies in Yucatán or in Mexico. And my mother was a teacher, schoolteacher, I think elementary school teacher. But she quit completely when I was born. I'm a twin brother, so I have a twin that he still lives in the Yucatán. My mother tragically passed away when I was five years old. It was a car accident. We were all in the vehicle, by the way. And so, I have very little memories of her, unfortunately. I don't know, growing up in Yucatán was always a very--. I never knew that, but Yucatán has, it's kind of isolated, you know, it's a peninsula, so it juts out into the sea. And because of that, we've always, it was always difficult access. I mean, I remember at some point--well I don't remember this, right--but I know that, that the connections, the highways that join Yucatán and with the rest of the country are fairly new. I'm talking about 1970s when they started. The, maybe the international airport started in 1969. So, this created, this kind of isolation created something of a unique perspective, a unique cultural identity for those people that live in Yucatán. We have a distinct accent from the rest of the Mexicans. We say things that only are said in Yucatán for the most part. And Yucatán, because of that isolation, used to look more into Cuba, and that's why I think that's why we have some, we have some words and expressions and sayings that are more from Cuba and the Caribbean than of Yucatán, I mean, the rest of Mexico. And I think that also plays into this unique identity that we have, people from Yucatán. I lived there all my life in Mérida until I was about thirty-six years old. Well, in reality, I lived four years in Cancun, too. Cancun is also in the Yucatán Peninsula, but in a neighboring state, but it's more or less the same thing, you know. So, I really didn't have any other experience until I came to the United States here in North Carolina, in Winston-Salem. And I have stayed here the whole time. So, my whole U.S. experience is Winston-Salem, here in North Carolina.
DV: Before you came to Winston-Salem, you were educated in Mexico, and you worked there for a while, correct?
AB: Yes, of course. I mean, I lived there. I went to the university, the state university in Yucatán, which is called the Autonomous, the Yucatán Autonomous University. I think that would be the correct translation. La Universidad Autónoma de Yucatán. It was also a very respected academic institution because people from neighboring states would come to study to Yucatán. So, I studied there and I had a Bachelor in economics. That's what I ended up studying. And upon graduation, right out of college, let's say, I started working for a bank. And that's my Cancun experience. It was a national bank called Banamex. Even when I was still working for Banamex, it was bought by the Citi Group. And I think they're still part of the Citi Group. So, I worked there four years as a mortgage analyst. That was my official title. And after that, I was kind of disillusioned. How do you say that, of the banking experience--.
DV: Disillusioned?
AB: Right, so, I started, I decided to take a completely different direction and I went to work for a newspaper. And that decision was very--. It's interesting how things happen because that decision in the end brought me to the United States, I think. I work for a newspaper in Yucatán called El Diario de Yucatán. It's one of the oldest newspapers in the Yucatán and very respected, too, because at the start of the paper, several, what do you call it, goons from the regime tried to destroy the paper. This was early 1900s, but they destroyed the presses. Goons, thugs--.
DV: This was during the Porfiriato period?
AB: Yeah by the regime, went inside the paper and destroyed the printing presses twice in five or six years, I don't know. The editor of that newspaper, in 1926, he was murdered inside the newspaper. Those were interesting times of political upheaval in Yucatán and in Mexico in general. And because of that, the paper had, until this day, has a lot of, what's the word, a lot of sway, you know, with the population. I'm looking for a different word. But I couldn't find it.
DV: Influence, perhaps?
AB: Influence, we could say influence. It was a different word what I was looking for, but you get my meaning. It's one of the leading newspapers in readership in the Yucatán. And I worked for them for about four years, another four years. And while I was working there, it was interesting how all these things happened. I knew--. I was, you know, new, relatively new, two or three years working into the paper. And a very experienced reporter called in sick that day, and they sent me to one of the offices. It was a press conference for one of the conservative parties in Mexico, PAN, El Partido de Acción Nacional, if you are familiar with it. At the end of that conference, the, how to say this, it's not the marketing, let's say the press guy from the state party approached me and said, I think I know you. Now, when I was still in college, I had a very, very brief stint of two or three months, perhaps six months, working at a different local newspaper and I was just trying to pay the bills, you know, or to have a little bit of money as I was a student. But I didn't like the, I mean, it really was taking me, taking a lot of time from my studying so I quit. So anyway, from that experience, he remembered me, this guy, and said, did you want to go to the United States to work? Sure, what do I have to do? He gave me a business card. And that business card was from the Executive Director of Qué Pasa, which at the time was Francisco Cámara. I've never met Francisco in my life, but Francisco was from Yucatán, from Mérida. And this guy tells me, yeah, he’s, my friend. He called me yesterday. He's looking for a reporter, but he needs someone that speaks English. You speak English, don't you? Yeah, I speak English. Okay, call him. He gave me a business card. Don't you think that's fate? It's a very interesting, interesting coincidence, you call it, whatever you want to call it. It's almost fate. Now, I did not call the guy immediately, to be completely honest with you. I called him like a year later.
DV: Wow.
AB: Yeah, but he, I explained the whole thing that I just explained to you, and I told him, do you still think I can work from there? And he says, look, I really don't need someone there, but I might in the future. Why don't you come here? And I did. I came there five days, and I worked, you know, he just wanted to see where I was with writing. And I left, and he said, okay, thank you very much, and they paid everything. They paid my stay, they paid the ticket plane. All I had to pay during this time was my meals. And he said, well, thank you. We'll call you. And I knew there was no promise at all to--.
DV: You went back home.
AB: I went back home, yeah, I did. And then about six months into the experience, after that, I texted him and said, hey, something happened, do you think there's still a chance? And I think he had completely forgotten about me. And he said something in the email. You know something? This is funny. But my reporter just told me yesterday that he's quitting. Yeah, yeah, let's do it. Come in, and it happened.
DV: Wow.
AB: I was very lucky how I came here because they sponsored me a work visa. And I arrived here in Winston-Salem in November. The fourth or sixth of November, I cannot remember now the date.
DV: What year?
AB: 2006.
DV: So, had you been looking to come to the United States or what was really behind you reaching out to them?
AB: I thought it was going to be a good opportunity and I knew that I would get paid more than I was going to pay there so I was pretty much the story so yeah it was interesting.
DV: Was it difficult to leave family behind?
AB: Well, I was single at the time. So, I never, that was the easy part. If I had been married and with children, probably would have been a little bit more problematic. But I was single. I mean, there was nothing really holding me there, except, you know, the friends that I left and lifelong friends and I'm still in contact with them, right. But it's different, you know, when you live in a different country.
DV: What about your twin brother?
AB: He's still there. He's still working there in Mérida. He's still there. He's still there. And my family, everybody's there still. The only one that's here, of the immediate family, let's say, it's me. I'm the only one that came here. So that's the story.
DV: Do you go back often? Do you miss it?
AB: I don't know. Of course, I miss it a lot. I miss the people that are left there, and I miss the food. And yeah, of course, I should be going, I hope, at the end of this year. And it's going to be the first time I go since 2015, so.
DV: Wow.
AB: It's been a while since the last time I was there, yeah.
DV: Wow.
AB: But I think I'm hoping I will be able to go this time.
DV: How was it after you started living here in 2006 and working here?
AB: Well, it was, I--. It was interesting, but I did not know that Qué Pasa was, well, I knew because I had been, they tested me right at the start of that year. But I knew--. I thought Qué Pasa was a newspaper because I think that's how they advertised themselves, Qué Pasa newspaper. But it was not a newspaper, it was a weekly magazine. So, I was hoping, or I thought that when I was here, I was going to be working, you know, in a newspaper when you work every day in a newspaper, you know how that is. But in a magazine, weekly magazine is a little bit more laid back because you don't have to come out tomorrow, right. So, that was better, I guess, in a sense you can, you really have the sense that you're having a little bit of a life. Whereas if you're in a newspaper working every day and you every day have to produce and produce and produce, I mean your whole life really revolves around that. In the weekly magazine it's the same thing, but you know that the cycle is a little bit more extended. So that was different. And of course, the things that you find here, I never knew snow. I experienced snow here. What else? I really spoke English a lot, I think, enough to have a communication with people. But I discovered that my accent was awful. Still, we all have an accent, right. I think this accent is never going to go away. But I think it's a lot better than what it was. In such a way that I think people understand a little bit better what I'm trying to say. So that was different too. I don't know. The food before was different.
DV: What about working for Qué Pasa? You worked there for about five years, right?
AB: Five years. About five years.
DV: Do you have any highlights or anecdotes you'd like to share?
AB: Let me think. It's been so long now. I did that for so many years, five, that even today I have some people that remember me from those years and will tell me, hi, hello, this is me. You remember me? No, I'm sorry, ma'am or sir, I don't. And apparently, I did a story about them in those years, but I really can't remember. When you're doing that, it's like, I'm going to give you an analogy: Peter and I, in this movie called The Bonfire of the Vanities, if you have never seen that movie, watch it, it's really good, it's with Tom Hanks and Bruce Willis. In this movie, Bruce Willis is a reporter. And Tom Hanks is a financier, disgraced financier, and Bruce Willis is doing a story about him. And when they finally meet, Tom Hanks says, why are you doing this to me? And Bruce Willis says something like, doing this to you, not doing anything to you, you're just dinner. Tomorrow I will not remember what I ate. So that's the analogy that I can give you about those stories. This is just breakfast and dinner. Two or three years from now we will not remember. And of course, it's awful to say it that way, but it is kind of true because you don't have a choice. You have to keep producing stories. And once you produce a story, you forget it and you go to the next one. That's more or less the cycle of reporting.
DV: And you meet so many people over so many years.
AB: I'm pretty sure it was a lot of people over the years, in those years, the stories that stuck with me were about those people that were deported, for instance. Those were very, very interesting stories. There was a woman that I interviewed in Greensboro, and I think all her, I think she had lived in the United States for years, probably when she was a little girl, I really don't remember now. But I mean, she started, you know the story, they started here, the elementary, middle, high school, everything, but she was undocumented. And she was caught somehow, she was even married to an American, and they were trying to, I don't know, arrange her situation and something happened. They discover her situation, and she was arrested and sent to an immigration detention center. I don't know if she was deported or not. I think she was not. I think she was able to pay the bond to her family and she was released and that's when I interviewed her somehow. I don't know how I got in touch with her, but anyway, what I remember about this woman is that she told me that she was shackled, like from the neck, the, you know, the wrist and the ankles, and that's how they would transfer her to, went to her immigration hearing or whatever. Shackled, in chains, she felt awful. And I'm like, she was saying I'm not a criminal, I'm not, but anyway, those immigration stories really stick with you. There was another story that I did of, this was a waiter in Greensboro. Well, I didn't interview him because he was actually deported. He was Mexican, but I talked to some of his buddies, and he's saying, of course he was undocumented, right, but he went to a park in Greensboro after hours, after he left the restaurant, I don't know what time it was. You know, it was dark at night. But it is those parks in Greensboro that says, there's a sign, I went to the park myself, you know, and there's a sign that says that you cannot enter after when it's dark. But he didn't know any better and he was just walking, he just was trying to clear his mind for whatever, he was just walking in the park. And I don't know, there were houses right in front of the park and all around the park there were houses. It was like a residential neighborhood and probably somebody called the police. And the police came, and they asked him. He spoke very little English. He didn't have an ID with him. He was arrested. And it was in those days where, in those Bush years where the 287g, I don't know if you remember that law where the sheriff's department was forced to, I think they were forced into collaboration with immigration authorities--.
DV: ICE.
AB: With ICE, right. And he ended up being deported, this young man. And of course, the people, his friends, the ones that I talked to. So, he was deported because he was walking in the park. That's one of the stories that I had. I'm pretty sure that there are many, many more there that I don't remember now. But those immigration stories were always big, big, big, every time I was there.
DV: Was the readership of Qué Pasa mostly Hispanic folks in Winston-Salem?
AB: I would assume so. It was...
DV: Was it published in English?
AB: No, it was in Spanish. It was completely in Spanish. That makes sense. If you haven't seen it, the Qué Pasa is still published till this day. But they have, you know, they have shrunk. It's not what it used to be. When I started working for Qué Pasa, I remember the owner, Mr. Isasi, if he was, if he sees this, I hope he remembers. But when I, when he hired me, he told me something along the lines that we're going to be big, we're going to be growing all around the East Coast, we're going to be the name in Spanish for people to try to reach the Hispanic community. He had big plans, big ambitious plans. But the newspaper business, you know, has been shrinking and shrinking and shrinking because of social media and because of the internet. And I'm not, I think it was I never really have a plan to get into the new digital age. I think very few, actually very few traditional media have a plan to transition successfully. I mean, reading newspapers was so common, you know, it was such a powerful means. I remember my grandfather, God bless his soul, reading, he had subscription to two different newspapers in Mariana, local newspapers. And he would read them all. Getting the paper, reading the paper every day was like, you know, part of your routine. It was, it's incredible how that has changed over the years. So, anyway, so, Qué Pasa was published in Spanish, still is published in Spanish, but it's not what it used to be. It's much smaller. It has probably, I mean, half the number of employees that it used to have. I'm not sure if they have radio, because that was also a good one to punch. They had the newspaper and also radio. It was AM radio. But they also had another means of--. Anyway.
DV: Well, how do you feel about that time? Before we move on to what you did after. Do you feel proud that you shared all those stories, and if you can share them.
AB: Yeah, of course. Of course. I think we; I hope we accomplished something. And it is important what we do because I was there, you know. I think they have a reporter now. It's a young woman. She interviewed me recently, two or three weeks ago. And I don't know, I feel like, I don't know what's her arrangement with the paper, but having somebody on the ground, it's very, very important because sometimes that's the only way that they will learn how things are happening locally that affect specifically the Hispanic community. I'm going to give you an example of what I'm trying to talk about. It was a year ago, no, I think it was two years ago. Here in Winston-Salem, there was a huge fire. It was a fertilizer plant that caught fire. And the fertilizer, they have a lot of fertilizer, you know, in their warehouses. And that fertilizer plant started in the 1940s, and at the time it was, you know, way outside the city, but now there are houses all around that factory, that plant. So, when it caught fire, there was a very big, I mean, very real possibility of the plant exploding and blowing up everything around it, several, probably several miles around it. I mean, I don't know how many, but it was a real possibility that this would explode and cause massive damage, not only to the plant, but the houses around it. There was one mile, if you live one mile around the plant, you were ordered to evacuate. I mean, that's how this was a real issue and a really big concern. And because of that evacuation thing, people, you know, police officers and firefighters were knocking on people's doors, and apparently there was some, a communication issue, a communication problem with the Hispanics that live there. And I am, I was told, I mean, I haven't heard this firsthand, but I was told that many Hispanics that only speak Spanish or very little English only found out about this fire when they saw it in Univision, which is in Miami. So, that is the importance of having a local media that is read, that is widely circulated, so that these things of people don't have to, you know, rely on it. I think Qué Pasa was one of those media, but I think it has fallen a little bit into, it is not, Qué Pasa is not what it used to be, I don't think, when I was there. But it's not only Qué Pasa's problem, right. It's also a little bit of the decline in general of newspapers. And I don't think they have quite found out the way to transition. I think very, actually very few newspapers have actually been able to transition successfully from traditional newspapers into the digital media, right.
DV: I understand. And then how did you transition from being a reporter for five years here, much longer in Mexico, to working for the City of Winston-Salem?
AB: Well, I found about this opportunity by chance also, but being a reporter facilitated this because the person that was here was a young man, very, very, a fine young man called Carlos, Carlos Bocanegra. He's the son of a very, also a very esteemed pastor here in Winston-Salem. His church was actually in Kernersville. But anyway, I was just looking for stories, you know, and sometimes you don't have nothing, absolutely nothing, all you have to do is call, cold calling the sources that in the past of new stories for you. So, I think it was January of that year, 2011, when I was, and it was January because, and you know January, the first days of the year, the first two weeks of the year are terrible for the news cycle because there's really nothing going on, right. Everybody's on vacation, everybody's returning and kind of transitioning into--. So I called him and said, hey, you have something that I don't know, is there something that you guys are doing that I need to know, to print about? And he told me something like, well, I'm moving out. You are? Yeah, I'm going to this position is going to be vacant. Oh, really? So that's how I knew the position was vacant because I was really not looking, right.
DV: And what was the position?
AB: The position was human relations analyst. It's the same position that I have now. It is just that after so many years of being here, and the department grew too from the Human Relations, and now it's Human Relations slash Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. So, we grew from five people to twelve. So, because of that, I was given the opportunity to be a program manager. So, I'm like, it's a little bit of a supervisory responsibility. But it's basically the same position, although then, I mean, I'm still doing the same things that I always did, which is landlord-tenant mediation. And now it's fair housing complaints. But now I have that added responsibility. I am responsible for the language access coordinators. So anyway, so that's how I found out about this opportunity. And I asked Carlos, if I were to be interested, what do I need to do? Do I have to apply and everything? And I did. And they interviewed me, and I ended up being selected for the position. And that was twelve years ago, in 2011. So, that's the story of how I am here.
DV: Wow, time flies.
AB: Yeah.
DV: Tell us some highlights about your twelve years in the City of Winston-Salem.
AB: Sure.
DV: I think some of the highlights could be, when it comes to Fair Housing Discrimination Commission. Remember that these complaints are supposed to be confidential, right. But I think one of the first cases I had was a massive case. It was a trailer home place. And the majority, I mean, probably 95 or 90% plus of the campus were Hispanics, for the most part Mexican. And they had a problem with the water, the way it was being billed, because they were getting their water billed monthly, not bi-monthly, like if you have your water here from the city of Winston-Salem. It's actually called Forsyth County slash Winston-Salem Utilities, something like that. Anyway, you are billed bimonthly. But in this case, you are billed, in the case of the these trailer homes, they were billed monthly. And some of the bills that they were receiving were $600, $400, even $200. And you're talking about twelve years ago. So, it was something. And they – we received – because of that issue with the water, we received something like thirty-two complaints from that place. So that was an interesting case.
DV: So, you mediated that.
AB: In some cases, there was no, nothing really there. Because in some cases, the allegation was that the white people that lived in the building were not paying water at all, and that was not the truth. They were paying water, but they were not paying as much as them. Some of them we were able to mediate, you know, they received some type of reimbursement of some kind. And some of them were causes, as we say in the business, meaning that I thought there was something there that could account for a discriminatory action. That was my very first case. Over the years, what other cases I could mention? An interesting one that I had was of a woman that said that she had a disability. And even the slightest of smells, it was too much for her to bear. She could not, I mean, there's a disability with the senses, with your sense of smell. And she said that somebody was smoking, in a non-smoking area. And she thought it was her neighbors, but there were seventeen different apartments in the building, and they were all connected. So that was a, it was very difficult to say, defend definitively. She had cameras and some people were out. Some people, she clearly saw people smoking, you know, would go in and they were smoking, they would throw-in a non-smoking area. So, that was a difficult case. But in the end, I said that I didn't think there was something there that could account for discriminatory action regarding that with them. Anyway, the interesting thing of this job is that I had to learn really everything in here and I had to learn also the history. I call it the racialized history of the United States and it's something that they don't, the United States in general don't openly broadcast, right, but that was the racialized history of the United States, how the segregation was something that happened in this country. And it was real, and it was in your face, and it was ugly. And I did not know that, you know, until I came here to study that. And it's part of the history of what we do now, right. All those, all that history, especially with housing. I had to learn that. I mean, some people that have lived here, you know, live through it, you know, and they were in segregated housing. They were in segregated schools. Even hospitals were segregated. I mean, everything was ruled truly. I mean, that was how it used to be. It is not now like that anymore. The discrimination is not in your face. It's not ugly. It's not, you know, it's not obvious. But I sometimes feel that discrimination is a little bit like, I don't know, viruses in your computer. That's what I think. Just because you haven't had an infection in two years, that doesn't mean it's never going to happen ever. You still have to keep your guard against it. And the way it happens, it can change. I always tell people that in Facebook, I had a famous case, that was two or three years ago, probably more than that, but before the pandemic. The National Fair Housing Alliance is a big, big fair housing organization in the United States based in Washington, realized that if you were an advertiser on Facebook, you could choose who could see your information, probably who could see your ads, right. So, they could choose if you liked, and I'm thinking of the actual things that happened in that case, you could choose the people that like Telemundo Deportes. You didn't want them to see your ad. You could click that and block them. In another category that they were blocking, that you could block, was those who were US veterans. If you had a house for rent, you could block them too. I don't want veterans from seeing my commercial, my ad. You have to pay, right, for every one of those restrictions, but you could, you know, laser focus, let's say, your ad. And the National Fair Housing Alliance thought that that was, that could be discriminatory, right, because if you block people that have, that have liked Telemundo Deportes, what, who do you think likes Telemundo Deportes? Somebody that probably looks like you and me, right? And they thought that was discriminatory. And of course, if you block those people that say that they are veterans of the U.S. Army, why are you doing that? I think because they don't want to see somebody that appears on a wheelchair on their property, right, or somebody that has PTSD, right. And anyway, if Facebook eventually paid the Fair Housing National Fair Housing Alliance two or three million a year, I'm sorry, two or three million dollars, perhaps five. I don't know. You can watch this online, this is not privileged information, it's public now and it's online. But this is just to say that these things, even though discrimination is not ugly in your face anymore, or in the law, it still can find ways to happen. And we have to keep ourselves, keep our guards [up] against it.
DV: In your mediatory role for the city, have you had to, have you encountered a lot of that discrimination and have you had to address it?
AB: I have never encountered somebody that acknowledges or admits to me openly, yes, I deny that housing because he's Black or because he's Hispanic. Every time, in every single one of my investigations that I have entered, they say, “no, I'm not a racist. I'm not, no, this is awful. This is terrible. This is a mistake. And I'm the victim.” I've never had ever in twelve years, nobody has admitted to me, yes, I did it because I don't want, and you put in the blank. I don't want Black people in my property, or I don't want Hispanics in my property. I don't want Asians in my property, or I don't want people that use wheelchairs in my property. No one has ever said that to me, if that's what you're wondering. So, you have to dig, you really have to investigate, and you have to try to find that evidence that you need if you want to close the case, right. And of course, if you cannot find any evidence, you're going to say, sorry, I have had some cases, especially with Hispanics, it's interesting being how our people that belong to our culture, for the most part, they say, nah, no, don't get me involved, I don't want, no, no, I'm not going to participate. Some witnesses, I think at least I had two cases in the past where I thought this was leaning towards a discriminatory action, but the witnesses were like, no, I'm not going to do it, I'm sorry. I’m not going to court. I don't know, I'm, I mean, that's sometimes the attitude that I find from Hispanics. They don't, just don't want to do it, even if they have documents already. Sometimes, I think in one case, this lady was a citizen, but it's the same thing. I mean, look, I just got my citizenship. I really don't want to mess with this. I'm sorry, I mean, and the other lady was a legal resident, and she told me, this was two different cases, of course, and she told me something like, look, I'm going to ask my husband, let's see what you think, and I'll get back in touch with you.
DV: Do you think there's some distrust of power structures, local governments that kind of prevents folks from wanting to come forward?
AB: I don't know. That is always like a, I think it's a stereotype. I think the reality, or the reason is more complicated than that. But I think in general, if you're a foreigner and Hispanic, that's probably what you're going to choose to do. Look, I'm sorry, thank you, no. But if you were born here in the United States, I think those are the Hispanics that have, they don't have that fear whatsoever. They are more willing to engage in activism, I think. It's not, this is also a stereotype, right I’m pretty sure there are some foreigners and probably some undocumented individuals that are really active and they will go where trouble is and will try to, you know, do their best to address what they believe is an unjust situation. But I think in my experience, that is how you can tell, right, if they're a foreigner, if they were born outside the United States and are here working, even if they have documents, they're going to say, no, thank you, but no. I'll find ways, or we'll find ways to deal with this, but no. But it's different if, with the children that are already born here. They are the ones, I think, that are already active, that embrace activism because they don't have that fear of, they're going to kick me out, right. I think that is, I could summarize my experience that way.
DV: Okay. Are there any other experiences you want to share?
AB: I think those are the ones with mediation cases that also we could go on, you know, in twelve years.
DV: So, what were some challenges that you felt like followed you or you had to navigate through? Were there any large challenges that you had to overcome?
AB: Probably the challenges have been, first, since we did not grow up with this system, we have to learn the system, how it works. In our countries, I don't think there are housing authorities, for instance, right, where people receive vouchers to pay for rent. That's something that's an American thing almost completely, right. So, that was where I had to learn that, and I had to navigate that thing. And I mean, and even the discrimination part, I mean, I'm pretty sure in our countries, there are no discrimination laws like the ones that we have here in the United States. So, it's, the challenge has always been the system, learning the system and learning how the system works because you cannot rely on your experience, and you cannot rely on your memory of how it was when you were growing up. You don't have that, so you have to-- that's one of the challenges that I have. And another challenge, of course, is the language. Sometimes people, even to this day, will claim or complain that they can't really understand me. They were like, what? What do you say? Can you please repeat that to me? Speak louder or slower because I can't understand what you're saying. It doesn't happen often, but still happens and that is frustrating when people tell you that. I'm going to tell you also two experiences. There was one time when I was, I mean I just grabbed the phone, and I said my name and my position because that's what you're supposed to do when you pick up the phone. And this woman said, the first thing she said is, can I talk to an American? Like that. And another time it was an individual, it was a guy that said, I don't know why the City of Winston-Salem hires people that can't speak English. And, wow, he hangs up the phone on me.
DV: Wow.
AB: Yeah, so that's another challenge. The language can be challenging, even though I feel like now, I think I feel like I'm okay and I can understand them. Even when you find people that have this very thick Southern accent, that could be, that used to be such a challenge, just try to understand them. But now it's okay. I think I'm much better than that. And in reality, since I have not lived in any other part of the United States, it's not a challenge either because that's the various accented English that I hear is the southern accent. And, you know, you're much, much more used to hear it now than after all these years.
DV: Okay. Now, back on those challenges, how did you square them away in your head? How do you think about them? You navigated through, I would say, some discrimination for your accent. So did you just say, okay, we just move on? Or did you address that in any other way.
AB: There's no-- it's part of the things that you have to brush off. You cannot hang on to it and you cannot, you know, stay with it. I mean, it is really no point, and it could be toxic. So, it's okay. I mean, it's water under the bridge, as they say here, it came and go, and you keep on going. There is no way you will find perhaps those attitudes every now and then, but for the most part I think, I really believe the United States is a very progressive nation in that sense and of course we cannot say every single American is that way. There's not such thing, right, but I think the United States is, like in many other fields, is at the forefront of these social issues. It's not perfect. Probably it will never be perfect. But they are trying, and that's what you trying to keep all these things in perspective. A few individuals will challenge your notions of what I just told you, right. And they're going to be backwards and they're going to be ignorant in many ways. But you cannot really, the totality of the actions of the United States of America leads you to think into a different direction, even though it is not uniform, and it is not equal. Progress, it will never be equal and uniform for every single one of the individuals, right. But we just have to keep chugging at it. In various circles, I have said this, in 1538, something like that, there was a Spanish bishop that wrote a letter saying that the natives of the Americas were slaves, in a way, in so much way, a natura. That's the expression he wrote. I mean, so they are there for the taking, right. The natives are there for us, just like the plants and just like the animals are in the land. They were just part of the same possibility. Now, fast forward that three hundred years and we have the Civil War in the United States, right. And then one hundred years after that, we still, we get the, in 1968, the Fair Housing Act, three years before in 1965, the Voting Rights Act. So, what I always say to people is, I mean, why, I mean, this is a train that has been going on like this for four hundred years. What makes you think that it's going to completely stop and we're going to dismantle this in fifty. I mean this is something that's going to take probably centuries probably our grandchildren will start seeing the fruits of this labor it's not going to stop in a generation or two this is something that is ingrained in our psyches and so that's the perspective that I try to tell people. Some people say no this is never going to change. And I'm like well perhaps it's not going to change in our lifetimes, but this will change eventually. Somebody else said well we're probably going to have, we will need an exogenous event to make us, yeah, probably the rise of the machines is going to make us, you know, a terminator type of event that will tell, yeah, let's unite. I don't care, yeah, you're Muslim, you're Black, I don't care, look at, what the machines are doing to us. I hope we never see that world, right. It will be apocalyptic. But I tend to think that that vision is probably right. There's going to be an exogenous event that will make us see the foolishness of this separation of humanity, right, of this categorization of humanity into level of worthiness based on your external appearance. There was probably a time when that was perhaps necessary, but we eventually, it is all going to be superfluous, is going to be unnecessary, is going to be ridiculous, right. Eventually, I think it's going to be like that. I don't think it's going to happen in the next 50 years, but it will happen. I firmly believe that.
DV: With that positive thoughts, not the rise of the machines part [laughter], with those positive thoughts and bringing it back to your experience, what would you say were some factors that have helped you along the way in your life and career?
AB: But it is true that if you have a work ethic, a hard work ethic, the results will be there. And I think that is the basis and foundation for everything you do. I've always said that yes, sometimes relationships are important or matter, but they only matter if you have something to show. And if you have results, to back it up, it's easier to have someone to vouch for you and to make a recommendation. I always think that it starts with you and the work that you do and your perspective. And you have to take responsibility of your actions for everything you cannot be blaming other people for what happens to you maybe it is the truth that in some cases other people may be to blame for one or two events in your life, but in general you need to take control, I hope I am answering your question that is my philosophy, my, I mean, it starts like that. Sadly, I'm seeing some people, you know, online and on social media that says that it is a lie, that if you work hard, you're never going to get anywhere because everything is already decided by the elites and the white people of this nation or something like that. And I truly and completely disagree with that. You need to work hard. And if you do, positive results will take place in your life, even if those positive results are not the ones that you imagined in the first place or of a lesser magnitude that you were expecting, but they will happen. I mean, and if you have, I think that philosophy is actually dangerous. The thing that, no, it doesn't matter what, how much you do, you're never going to get out of your bog or your, whatever situation is that you're in. I think it's a dangerous attitude and anyway, that's what I think. I hope I have answered your question.
DV: Yeah. Thank you. Well, to conclude, what do you hope for the future? Be it for your own personal life or professional life or for your community?
AB: In my personal life, I hope I still have a job in twenty years. Hopefully it's going to be--.
DV: Before the machines take your job right.
AB: Yeah, either this job or a better paid job than the one that I have. I hope there's still a social security net by the time I retire. I certainly hope that. About the community, I think eventually the community will grow. Here in North Carolina, there are already a lot of Hispanics that were born in this land. And they will come to be, you know, leaders in their own community. And not only in the Hispanic community, but they will be leaders, period, of all the community. I think that's going to happen. And I hope that at some point when we think about Hispanics, we don't think it under that slant of poverty and disadvantage and disenfranchisement. And when we think of Hispanics, we're going to be a true engine of the society. We will not need, you know, society's pity to get along. Not to get along, to move along, I hope that eventually that's how it's going to be. And we will not need intermediaries, right, to reach the society as a whole. We will not need a spokesperson or somebody that speaks for us. And we will be able to, you know, to just be just like every other community here that doesn't need special dispensations to, I think that's how eventually it's going to be. Because I think most of what we are here to do is working, right? And that's what we came here for, to work and to build a solid and stable future for our children and our families in general. And eventually, I think it will happen, and we will come to be very mature, like in other parts of the United States, right. In Florida and in California and Texas, where there is no more any dissonance, right. It's not either Hispanic or American, you know, and you can be, you will be able to be American even though you're Hispanic and there will not be this bifurcated perception of you eventually that will come to pass and that will, and it will be naturally embraced by society as a whole, I think, and I hope that's what the future will bring to us all.
DV: Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts and your experiences with us, Adolfo.
AB: Sure, absolutely, my pleasure. I hope it is my contribution to this wonderful project that you guys are doing.
DV: Thank you, and see you next time.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Transcribers: Sofia Godoy & Daniel Velásquez
Interview Date: 2023 May 26
Date of Transcription: 2023 August 7 / Revisions: 2023 October 19
Es: Transcripción
Daniel Velásquez: Okay, I am Daniel Velásquez. I'm here with Adolfo Briceño, who is Program Manager of Human Relations and Diversity, Equity and Inclusion at the City of Winston-Salem. Today is May 26th of 2023, and we are conducting this via Zoom. Adolfo, thank you so much for being with us today and for sharing your story.
Adolfo Briceño: My pleasure, Daniel. My pleasure.
DV: Okay, Adolfo, to get started, could you tell me about your personal background, where you were born and raised, any early life experiences that you want to share?
AB: Yeah, sure. I was born in Mérida, Yucatán in Mexico. This is on the Yucatán Peninsula. I was born according to my birth certificate, right. Neither of us has a memory of that event, that momentous event, right, but my birth certificate says that I was born on the sixth of June 1972 in Mérida, Yucatán, which has been the, it is still, it has been traditional in the state capital of Yucatán. So, I was born there. My father has my same name. You know, in our countries, we, so he's Adolfo Enrique Briceño Acosta. That's my father's name. My mother's is Jader Lisbeth Medina Cano. Those were my parents. My father was always like a public employee. He worked for several state and federal agencies in Yucatán or in Mexico. And my mother was a teacher, schoolteacher, I think elementary school teacher. But she quit completely when I was born. I'm a twin brother, so I have a twin that he still lives in the Yucatán. My mother tragically passed away when I was five years old. It was a car accident. We were all in the vehicle, by the way. And so, I have very little memories of her, unfortunately. I don't know, growing up in Yucatán was always a very--. I never knew that, but Yucatán has, it's kind of isolated, you know, it's a peninsula, so it juts out into the sea. And because of that, we've always, it was always difficult access. I mean, I remember at some point--well I don't remember this, right--but I know that, that the connections, the highways that join Yucatán and with the rest of the country are fairly new. I'm talking about 1970s when they started. The, maybe the international airport started in 1969. So, this created, this kind of isolation created something of a unique perspective, a unique cultural identity for those people that live in Yucatán. We have a distinct accent from the rest of the Mexicans. We say things that only are said in Yucatán for the most part. And Yucatán, because of that isolation, used to look more into Cuba, and that's why I think that's why we have some, we have some words and expressions and sayings that are more from Cuba and the Caribbean than of Yucatán, I mean, the rest of Mexico. And I think that also plays into this unique identity that we have, people from Yucatán. I lived there all my life in Mérida until I was about thirty-six years old. Well, in reality, I lived four years in Cancun, too. Cancun is also in the Yucatán Peninsula, but in a neighboring state, but it's more or less the same thing, you know. So, I really didn't have any other experience until I came to the United States here in North Carolina, in Winston-Salem. And I have stayed here the whole time. So, my whole U.S. experience is Winston-Salem, here in North Carolina.
DV: Before you came to Winston-Salem, you were educated in Mexico, and you worked there for a while, correct?
AB: Yes, of course. I mean, I lived there. I went to the university, the state university in Yucatán, which is called the Autonomous, the Yucatán Autonomous University. I think that would be the correct translation. La Universidad Autónoma de Yucatán. It was also a very respected academic institution because people from neighboring states would come to study to Yucatán. So, I studied there and I had a Bachelor in economics. That's what I ended up studying. And upon graduation, right out of college, let's say, I started working for a bank. And that's my Cancun experience. It was a national bank called Banamex. Even when I was still working for Banamex, it was bought by the Citi Group. And I think they're still part of the Citi Group. So, I worked there four years as a mortgage analyst. That was my official title. And after that, I was kind of disillusioned. How do you say that, of the banking experience--.
DV: Disillusioned?
AB: Right, so, I started, I decided to take a completely different direction and I went to work for a newspaper. And that decision was very--. It's interesting how things happen because that decision in the end brought me to the United States, I think. I work for a newspaper in Yucatán called El Diario de Yucatán. It's one of the oldest newspapers in the Yucatán and very respected, too, because at the start of the paper, several, what do you call it, goons from the regime tried to destroy the paper. This was early 1900s, but they destroyed the presses. Goons, thugs--.
DV: This was during the Porfiriato period?
AB: Yeah by the regime, went inside the paper and destroyed the printing presses twice in five or six years, I don't know. The editor of that newspaper, in 1926, he was murdered inside the newspaper. Those were interesting times of political upheaval in Yucatán and in Mexico in general. And because of that, the paper had, until this day, has a lot of, what's the word, a lot of sway, you know, with the population. I'm looking for a different word. But I couldn't find it.
DV: Influence, perhaps?
AB: Influence, we could say influence. It was a different word what I was looking for, but you get my meaning. It's one of the leading newspapers in readership in the Yucatán. And I worked for them for about four years, another four years. And while I was working there, it was interesting how all these things happened. I knew--. I was, you know, new, relatively new, two or three years working into the paper. And a very experienced reporter called in sick that day, and they sent me to one of the offices. It was a press conference for one of the conservative parties in Mexico, PAN, El Partido de Acción Nacional, if you are familiar with it. At the end of that conference, the, how to say this, it's not the marketing, let's say the press guy from the state party approached me and said, I think I know you. Now, when I was still in college, I had a very, very brief stint of two or three months, perhaps six months, working at a different local newspaper and I was just trying to pay the bills, you know, or to have a little bit of money as I was a student. But I didn't like the, I mean, it really was taking me, taking a lot of time from my studying so I quit. So anyway, from that experience, he remembered me, this guy, and said, did you want to go to the United States to work? Sure, what do I have to do? He gave me a business card. And that business card was from the Executive Director of Qué Pasa, which at the time was Francisco Cámara. I've never met Francisco in my life, but Francisco was from Yucatán, from Mérida. And this guy tells me, yeah, he’s, my friend. He called me yesterday. He's looking for a reporter, but he needs someone that speaks English. You speak English, don't you? Yeah, I speak English. Okay, call him. He gave me a business card. Don't you think that's fate? It's a very interesting, interesting coincidence, you call it, whatever you want to call it. It's almost fate. Now, I did not call the guy immediately, to be completely honest with you. I called him like a year later.
DV: Wow.
AB: Yeah, but he, I explained the whole thing that I just explained to you, and I told him, do you still think I can work from there? And he says, look, I really don't need someone there, but I might in the future. Why don't you come here? And I did. I came there five days, and I worked, you know, he just wanted to see where I was with writing. And I left, and he said, okay, thank you very much, and they paid everything. They paid my stay, they paid the ticket plane. All I had to pay during this time was my meals. And he said, well, thank you. We'll call you. And I knew there was no promise at all to--.
DV: You went back home.
AB: I went back home, yeah, I did. And then about six months into the experience, after that, I texted him and said, hey, something happened, do you think there's still a chance? And I think he had completely forgotten about me. And he said something in the email. You know something? This is funny. But my reporter just told me yesterday that he's quitting. Yeah, yeah, let's do it. Come in, and it happened.
DV: Wow.
AB: I was very lucky how I came here because they sponsored me a work visa. And I arrived here in Winston-Salem in November. The fourth or sixth of November, I cannot remember now the date.
DV: What year?
AB: 2006.
DV: So, had you been looking to come to the United States or what was really behind you reaching out to them?
AB: I thought it was going to be a good opportunity and I knew that I would get paid more than I was going to pay there so I was pretty much the story so yeah it was interesting.
DV: Was it difficult to leave family behind?
AB: Well, I was single at the time. So, I never, that was the easy part. If I had been married and with children, probably would have been a little bit more problematic. But I was single. I mean, there was nothing really holding me there, except, you know, the friends that I left and lifelong friends and I'm still in contact with them, right. But it's different, you know, when you live in a different country.
DV: What about your twin brother?
AB: He's still there. He's still working there in Mérida. He's still there. He's still there. And my family, everybody's there still. The only one that's here, of the immediate family, let's say, it's me. I'm the only one that came here. So that's the story.
DV: Do you go back often? Do you miss it?
AB: I don't know. Of course, I miss it a lot. I miss the people that are left there, and I miss the food. And yeah, of course, I should be going, I hope, at the end of this year. And it's going to be the first time I go since 2015, so.
DV: Wow.
AB: It's been a while since the last time I was there, yeah.
DV: Wow.
AB: But I think I'm hoping I will be able to go this time.
DV: How was it after you started living here in 2006 and working here?
AB: Well, it was, I--. It was interesting, but I did not know that Qué Pasa was, well, I knew because I had been, they tested me right at the start of that year. But I knew--. I thought Qué Pasa was a newspaper because I think that's how they advertised themselves, Qué Pasa newspaper. But it was not a newspaper, it was a weekly magazine. So, I was hoping, or I thought that when I was here, I was going to be working, you know, in a newspaper when you work every day in a newspaper, you know how that is. But in a magazine, weekly magazine is a little bit more laid back because you don't have to come out tomorrow, right. So, that was better, I guess, in a sense you can, you really have the sense that you're having a little bit of a life. Whereas if you're in a newspaper working every day and you every day have to produce and produce and produce, I mean your whole life really revolves around that. In the weekly magazine it's the same thing, but you know that the cycle is a little bit more extended. So that was different. And of course, the things that you find here, I never knew snow. I experienced snow here. What else? I really spoke English a lot, I think, enough to have a communication with people. But I discovered that my accent was awful. Still, we all have an accent, right. I think this accent is never going to go away. But I think it's a lot better than what it was. In such a way that I think people understand a little bit better what I'm trying to say. So that was different too. I don't know. The food before was different.
DV: What about working for Qué Pasa? You worked there for about five years, right?
AB: Five years. About five years.
DV: Do you have any highlights or anecdotes you'd like to share?
AB: Let me think. It's been so long now. I did that for so many years, five, that even today I have some people that remember me from those years and will tell me, hi, hello, this is me. You remember me? No, I'm sorry, ma'am or sir, I don't. And apparently, I did a story about them in those years, but I really can't remember. When you're doing that, it's like, I'm going to give you an analogy: Peter and I, in this movie called The Bonfire of the Vanities, if you have never seen that movie, watch it, it's really good, it's with Tom Hanks and Bruce Willis. In this movie, Bruce Willis is a reporter. And Tom Hanks is a financier, disgraced financier, and Bruce Willis is doing a story about him. And when they finally meet, Tom Hanks says, why are you doing this to me? And Bruce Willis says something like, doing this to you, not doing anything to you, you're just dinner. Tomorrow I will not remember what I ate. So that's the analogy that I can give you about those stories. This is just breakfast and dinner. Two or three years from now we will not remember. And of course, it's awful to say it that way, but it is kind of true because you don't have a choice. You have to keep producing stories. And once you produce a story, you forget it and you go to the next one. That's more or less the cycle of reporting.
DV: And you meet so many people over so many years.
AB: I'm pretty sure it was a lot of people over the years, in those years, the stories that stuck with me were about those people that were deported, for instance. Those were very, very interesting stories. There was a woman that I interviewed in Greensboro, and I think all her, I think she had lived in the United States for years, probably when she was a little girl, I really don't remember now. But I mean, she started, you know the story, they started here, the elementary, middle, high school, everything, but she was undocumented. And she was caught somehow, she was even married to an American, and they were trying to, I don't know, arrange her situation and something happened. They discover her situation, and she was arrested and sent to an immigration detention center. I don't know if she was deported or not. I think she was not. I think she was able to pay the bond to her family and she was released and that's when I interviewed her somehow. I don't know how I got in touch with her, but anyway, what I remember about this woman is that she told me that she was shackled, like from the neck, the, you know, the wrist and the ankles, and that's how they would transfer her to, went to her immigration hearing or whatever. Shackled, in chains, she felt awful. And I'm like, she was saying I'm not a criminal, I'm not, but anyway, those immigration stories really stick with you. There was another story that I did of, this was a waiter in Greensboro. Well, I didn't interview him because he was actually deported. He was Mexican, but I talked to some of his buddies, and he's saying, of course he was undocumented, right, but he went to a park in Greensboro after hours, after he left the restaurant, I don't know what time it was. You know, it was dark at night. But it is those parks in Greensboro that says, there's a sign, I went to the park myself, you know, and there's a sign that says that you cannot enter after when it's dark. But he didn't know any better and he was just walking, he just was trying to clear his mind for whatever, he was just walking in the park. And I don't know, there were houses right in front of the park and all around the park there were houses. It was like a residential neighborhood and probably somebody called the police. And the police came, and they asked him. He spoke very little English. He didn't have an ID with him. He was arrested. And it was in those days where, in those Bush years where the 287g, I don't know if you remember that law where the sheriff's department was forced to, I think they were forced into collaboration with immigration authorities--.
DV: ICE.
AB: With ICE, right. And he ended up being deported, this young man. And of course, the people, his friends, the ones that I talked to. So, he was deported because he was walking in the park. That's one of the stories that I had. I'm pretty sure that there are many, many more there that I don't remember now. But those immigration stories were always big, big, big, every time I was there.
DV: Was the readership of Qué Pasa mostly Hispanic folks in Winston-Salem?
AB: I would assume so. It was...
DV: Was it published in English?
AB: No, it was in Spanish. It was completely in Spanish. That makes sense. If you haven't seen it, the Qué Pasa is still published till this day. But they have, you know, they have shrunk. It's not what it used to be. When I started working for Qué Pasa, I remember the owner, Mr. Isasi, if he was, if he sees this, I hope he remembers. But when I, when he hired me, he told me something along the lines that we're going to be big, we're going to be growing all around the East Coast, we're going to be the name in Spanish for people to try to reach the Hispanic community. He had big plans, big ambitious plans. But the newspaper business, you know, has been shrinking and shrinking and shrinking because of social media and because of the internet. And I'm not, I think it was I never really have a plan to get into the new digital age. I think very few, actually very few traditional media have a plan to transition successfully. I mean, reading newspapers was so common, you know, it was such a powerful means. I remember my grandfather, God bless his soul, reading, he had subscription to two different newspapers in Mariana, local newspapers. And he would read them all. Getting the paper, reading the paper every day was like, you know, part of your routine. It was, it's incredible how that has changed over the years. So, anyway, so, Qué Pasa was published in Spanish, still is published in Spanish, but it's not what it used to be. It's much smaller. It has probably, I mean, half the number of employees that it used to have. I'm not sure if they have radio, because that was also a good one to punch. They had the newspaper and also radio. It was AM radio. But they also had another means of--. Anyway.
DV: Well, how do you feel about that time? Before we move on to what you did after. Do you feel proud that you shared all those stories, and if you can share them.
AB: Yeah, of course. Of course. I think we; I hope we accomplished something. And it is important what we do because I was there, you know. I think they have a reporter now. It's a young woman. She interviewed me recently, two or three weeks ago. And I don't know, I feel like, I don't know what's her arrangement with the paper, but having somebody on the ground, it's very, very important because sometimes that's the only way that they will learn how things are happening locally that affect specifically the Hispanic community. I'm going to give you an example of what I'm trying to talk about. It was a year ago, no, I think it was two years ago. Here in Winston-Salem, there was a huge fire. It was a fertilizer plant that caught fire. And the fertilizer, they have a lot of fertilizer, you know, in their warehouses. And that fertilizer plant started in the 1940s, and at the time it was, you know, way outside the city, but now there are houses all around that factory, that plant. So, when it caught fire, there was a very big, I mean, very real possibility of the plant exploding and blowing up everything around it, several, probably several miles around it. I mean, I don't know how many, but it was a real possibility that this would explode and cause massive damage, not only to the plant, but the houses around it. There was one mile, if you live one mile around the plant, you were ordered to evacuate. I mean, that's how this was a real issue and a really big concern. And because of that evacuation thing, people, you know, police officers and firefighters were knocking on people's doors, and apparently there was some, a communication issue, a communication problem with the Hispanics that live there. And I am, I was told, I mean, I haven't heard this firsthand, but I was told that many Hispanics that only speak Spanish or very little English only found out about this fire when they saw it in Univision, which is in Miami. So, that is the importance of having a local media that is read, that is widely circulated, so that these things of people don't have to, you know, rely on it. I think Qué Pasa was one of those media, but I think it has fallen a little bit into, it is not, Qué Pasa is not what it used to be, I don't think, when I was there. But it's not only Qué Pasa's problem, right. It's also a little bit of the decline in general of newspapers. And I don't think they have quite found out the way to transition. I think very, actually very few newspapers have actually been able to transition successfully from traditional newspapers into the digital media, right.
DV: I understand. And then how did you transition from being a reporter for five years here, much longer in Mexico, to working for the City of Winston-Salem?
AB: Well, I found about this opportunity by chance also, but being a reporter facilitated this because the person that was here was a young man, very, very, a fine young man called Carlos, Carlos Bocanegra. He's the son of a very, also a very esteemed pastor here in Winston-Salem. His church was actually in Kernersville. But anyway, I was just looking for stories, you know, and sometimes you don't have nothing, absolutely nothing, all you have to do is call, cold calling the sources that in the past of new stories for you. So, I think it was January of that year, 2011, when I was, and it was January because, and you know January, the first days of the year, the first two weeks of the year are terrible for the news cycle because there's really nothing going on, right. Everybody's on vacation, everybody's returning and kind of transitioning into--. So I called him and said, hey, you have something that I don't know, is there something that you guys are doing that I need to know, to print about? And he told me something like, well, I'm moving out. You are? Yeah, I'm going to this position is going to be vacant. Oh, really? So that's how I knew the position was vacant because I was really not looking, right.
DV: And what was the position?
AB: The position was human relations analyst. It's the same position that I have now. It is just that after so many years of being here, and the department grew too from the Human Relations, and now it's Human Relations slash Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. So, we grew from five people to twelve. So, because of that, I was given the opportunity to be a program manager. So, I'm like, it's a little bit of a supervisory responsibility. But it's basically the same position, although then, I mean, I'm still doing the same things that I always did, which is landlord-tenant mediation. And now it's fair housing complaints. But now I have that added responsibility. I am responsible for the language access coordinators. So anyway, so that's how I found out about this opportunity. And I asked Carlos, if I were to be interested, what do I need to do? Do I have to apply and everything? And I did. And they interviewed me, and I ended up being selected for the position. And that was twelve years ago, in 2011. So, that's the story of how I am here.
DV: Wow, time flies.
AB: Yeah.
DV: Tell us some highlights about your twelve years in the City of Winston-Salem.
AB: Sure.
DV: I think some of the highlights could be, when it comes to Fair Housing Discrimination Commission. Remember that these complaints are supposed to be confidential, right. But I think one of the first cases I had was a massive case. It was a trailer home place. And the majority, I mean, probably 95 or 90% plus of the campus were Hispanics, for the most part Mexican. And they had a problem with the water, the way it was being billed, because they were getting their water billed monthly, not bi-monthly, like if you have your water here from the city of Winston-Salem. It's actually called Forsyth County slash Winston-Salem Utilities, something like that. Anyway, you are billed bimonthly. But in this case, you are billed, in the case of the these trailer homes, they were billed monthly. And some of the bills that they were receiving were $600, $400, even $200. And you're talking about twelve years ago. So, it was something. And they – we received – because of that issue with the water, we received something like thirty-two complaints from that place. So that was an interesting case.
DV: So, you mediated that.
AB: In some cases, there was no, nothing really there. Because in some cases, the allegation was that the white people that lived in the building were not paying water at all, and that was not the truth. They were paying water, but they were not paying as much as them. Some of them we were able to mediate, you know, they received some type of reimbursement of some kind. And some of them were causes, as we say in the business, meaning that I thought there was something there that could account for a discriminatory action. That was my very first case. Over the years, what other cases I could mention? An interesting one that I had was of a woman that said that she had a disability. And even the slightest of smells, it was too much for her to bear. She could not, I mean, there's a disability with the senses, with your sense of smell. And she said that somebody was smoking, in a non-smoking area. And she thought it was her neighbors, but there were seventeen different apartments in the building, and they were all connected. So that was a, it was very difficult to say, defend definitively. She had cameras and some people were out. Some people, she clearly saw people smoking, you know, would go in and they were smoking, they would throw-in a non-smoking area. So, that was a difficult case. But in the end, I said that I didn't think there was something there that could account for discriminatory action regarding that with them. Anyway, the interesting thing of this job is that I had to learn really everything in here and I had to learn also the history. I call it the racialized history of the United States and it's something that they don't, the United States in general don't openly broadcast, right, but that was the racialized history of the United States, how the segregation was something that happened in this country. And it was real, and it was in your face, and it was ugly. And I did not know that, you know, until I came here to study that. And it's part of the history of what we do now, right. All those, all that history, especially with housing. I had to learn that. I mean, some people that have lived here, you know, live through it, you know, and they were in segregated housing. They were in segregated schools. Even hospitals were segregated. I mean, everything was ruled truly. I mean, that was how it used to be. It is not now like that anymore. The discrimination is not in your face. It's not ugly. It's not, you know, it's not obvious. But I sometimes feel that discrimination is a little bit like, I don't know, viruses in your computer. That's what I think. Just because you haven't had an infection in two years, that doesn't mean it's never going to happen ever. You still have to keep your guard against it. And the way it happens, it can change. I always tell people that in Facebook, I had a famous case, that was two or three years ago, probably more than that, but before the pandemic. The National Fair Housing Alliance is a big, big fair housing organization in the United States based in Washington, realized that if you were an advertiser on Facebook, you could choose who could see your information, probably who could see your ads, right. So, they could choose if you liked, and I'm thinking of the actual things that happened in that case, you could choose the people that like Telemundo Deportes. You didn't want them to see your ad. You could click that and block them. In another category that they were blocking, that you could block, was those who were US veterans. If you had a house for rent, you could block them too. I don't want veterans from seeing my commercial, my ad. You have to pay, right, for every one of those restrictions, but you could, you know, laser focus, let's say, your ad. And the National Fair Housing Alliance thought that that was, that could be discriminatory, right, because if you block people that have, that have liked Telemundo Deportes, what, who do you think likes Telemundo Deportes? Somebody that probably looks like you and me, right? And they thought that was discriminatory. And of course, if you block those people that say that they are veterans of the U.S. Army, why are you doing that? I think because they don't want to see somebody that appears on a wheelchair on their property, right, or somebody that has PTSD, right. And anyway, if Facebook eventually paid the Fair Housing National Fair Housing Alliance two or three million a year, I'm sorry, two or three million dollars, perhaps five. I don't know. You can watch this online, this is not privileged information, it's public now and it's online. But this is just to say that these things, even though discrimination is not ugly in your face anymore, or in the law, it still can find ways to happen. And we have to keep ourselves, keep our guards [up] against it.
DV: In your mediatory role for the city, have you had to, have you encountered a lot of that discrimination and have you had to address it?
AB: I have never encountered somebody that acknowledges or admits to me openly, yes, I deny that housing because he's Black or because he's Hispanic. Every time, in every single one of my investigations that I have entered, they say, “no, I'm not a racist. I'm not, no, this is awful. This is terrible. This is a mistake. And I'm the victim.” I've never had ever in twelve years, nobody has admitted to me, yes, I did it because I don't want, and you put in the blank. I don't want Black people in my property, or I don't want Hispanics in my property. I don't want Asians in my property, or I don't want people that use wheelchairs in my property. No one has ever said that to me, if that's what you're wondering. So, you have to dig, you really have to investigate, and you have to try to find that evidence that you need if you want to close the case, right. And of course, if you cannot find any evidence, you're going to say, sorry, I have had some cases, especially with Hispanics, it's interesting being how our people that belong to our culture, for the most part, they say, nah, no, don't get me involved, I don't want, no, no, I'm not going to participate. Some witnesses, I think at least I had two cases in the past where I thought this was leaning towards a discriminatory action, but the witnesses were like, no, I'm not going to do it, I'm sorry. I’m not going to court. I don't know, I'm, I mean, that's sometimes the attitude that I find from Hispanics. They don't, just don't want to do it, even if they have documents already. Sometimes, I think in one case, this lady was a citizen, but it's the same thing. I mean, look, I just got my citizenship. I really don't want to mess with this. I'm sorry, I mean, and the other lady was a legal resident, and she told me, this was two different cases, of course, and she told me something like, look, I'm going to ask my husband, let's see what you think, and I'll get back in touch with you.
DV: Do you think there's some distrust of power structures, local governments that kind of prevents folks from wanting to come forward?
AB: I don't know. That is always like a, I think it's a stereotype. I think the reality, or the reason is more complicated than that. But I think in general, if you're a foreigner and Hispanic, that's probably what you're going to choose to do. Look, I'm sorry, thank you, no. But if you were born here in the United States, I think those are the Hispanics that have, they don't have that fear whatsoever. They are more willing to engage in activism, I think. It's not, this is also a stereotype, right I’m pretty sure there are some foreigners and probably some undocumented individuals that are really active and they will go where trouble is and will try to, you know, do their best to address what they believe is an unjust situation. But I think in my experience, that is how you can tell, right, if they're a foreigner, if they were born outside the United States and are here working, even if they have documents, they're going to say, no, thank you, but no. I'll find ways, or we'll find ways to deal with this, but no. But it's different if, with the children that are already born here. They are the ones, I think, that are already active, that embrace activism because they don't have that fear of, they're going to kick me out, right. I think that is, I could summarize my experience that way.
DV: Okay. Are there any other experiences you want to share?
AB: I think those are the ones with mediation cases that also we could go on, you know, in twelve years.
DV: So, what were some challenges that you felt like followed you or you had to navigate through? Were there any large challenges that you had to overcome?
AB: Probably the challenges have been, first, since we did not grow up with this system, we have to learn the system, how it works. In our countries, I don't think there are housing authorities, for instance, right, where people receive vouchers to pay for rent. That's something that's an American thing almost completely, right. So, that was where I had to learn that, and I had to navigate that thing. And I mean, and even the discrimination part, I mean, I'm pretty sure in our countries, there are no discrimination laws like the ones that we have here in the United States. So, it's, the challenge has always been the system, learning the system and learning how the system works because you cannot rely on your experience, and you cannot rely on your memory of how it was when you were growing up. You don't have that, so you have to-- that's one of the challenges that I have. And another challenge, of course, is the language. Sometimes people, even to this day, will claim or complain that they can't really understand me. They were like, what? What do you say? Can you please repeat that to me? Speak louder or slower because I can't understand what you're saying. It doesn't happen often, but still happens and that is frustrating when people tell you that. I'm going to tell you also two experiences. There was one time when I was, I mean I just grabbed the phone, and I said my name and my position because that's what you're supposed to do when you pick up the phone. And this woman said, the first thing she said is, can I talk to an American? Like that. And another time it was an individual, it was a guy that said, I don't know why the City of Winston-Salem hires people that can't speak English. And, wow, he hangs up the phone on me.
DV: Wow.
AB: Yeah, so that's another challenge. The language can be challenging, even though I feel like now, I think I feel like I'm okay and I can understand them. Even when you find people that have this very thick Southern accent, that could be, that used to be such a challenge, just try to understand them. But now it's okay. I think I'm much better than that. And in reality, since I have not lived in any other part of the United States, it's not a challenge either because that's the various accented English that I hear is the southern accent. And, you know, you're much, much more used to hear it now than after all these years.
DV: Okay. Now, back on those challenges, how did you square them away in your head? How do you think about them? You navigated through, I would say, some discrimination for your accent. So did you just say, okay, we just move on? Or did you address that in any other way.
AB: There's no-- it's part of the things that you have to brush off. You cannot hang on to it and you cannot, you know, stay with it. I mean, it is really no point, and it could be toxic. So, it's okay. I mean, it's water under the bridge, as they say here, it came and go, and you keep on going. There is no way you will find perhaps those attitudes every now and then, but for the most part I think, I really believe the United States is a very progressive nation in that sense and of course we cannot say every single American is that way. There's not such thing, right, but I think the United States is, like in many other fields, is at the forefront of these social issues. It's not perfect. Probably it will never be perfect. But they are trying, and that's what you trying to keep all these things in perspective. A few individuals will challenge your notions of what I just told you, right. And they're going to be backwards and they're going to be ignorant in many ways. But you cannot really, the totality of the actions of the United States of America leads you to think into a different direction, even though it is not uniform, and it is not equal. Progress, it will never be equal and uniform for every single one of the individuals, right. But we just have to keep chugging at it. In various circles, I have said this, in 1538, something like that, there was a Spanish bishop that wrote a letter saying that the natives of the Americas were slaves, in a way, in so much way, a natura. That's the expression he wrote. I mean, so they are there for the taking, right. The natives are there for us, just like the plants and just like the animals are in the land. They were just part of the same possibility. Now, fast forward that three hundred years and we have the Civil War in the United States, right. And then one hundred years after that, we still, we get the, in 1968, the Fair Housing Act, three years before in 1965, the Voting Rights Act. So, what I always say to people is, I mean, why, I mean, this is a train that has been going on like this for four hundred years. What makes you think that it's going to completely stop and we're going to dismantle this in fifty. I mean this is something that's going to take probably centuries probably our grandchildren will start seeing the fruits of this labor it's not going to stop in a generation or two this is something that is ingrained in our psyches and so that's the perspective that I try to tell people. Some people say no this is never going to change. And I'm like well perhaps it's not going to change in our lifetimes, but this will change eventually. Somebody else said well we're probably going to have, we will need an exogenous event to make us, yeah, probably the rise of the machines is going to make us, you know, a terminator type of event that will tell, yeah, let's unite. I don't care, yeah, you're Muslim, you're Black, I don't care, look at, what the machines are doing to us. I hope we never see that world, right. It will be apocalyptic. But I tend to think that that vision is probably right. There's going to be an exogenous event that will make us see the foolishness of this separation of humanity, right, of this categorization of humanity into level of worthiness based on your external appearance. There was probably a time when that was perhaps necessary, but we eventually, it is all going to be superfluous, is going to be unnecessary, is going to be ridiculous, right. Eventually, I think it's going to be like that. I don't think it's going to happen in the next 50 years, but it will happen. I firmly believe that.
DV: With that positive thoughts, not the rise of the machines part [laughter], with those positive thoughts and bringing it back to your experience, what would you say were some factors that have helped you along the way in your life and career?
AB: But it is true that if you have a work ethic, a hard work ethic, the results will be there. And I think that is the basis and foundation for everything you do. I've always said that yes, sometimes relationships are important or matter, but they only matter if you have something to show. And if you have results, to back it up, it's easier to have someone to vouch for you and to make a recommendation. I always think that it starts with you and the work that you do and your perspective. And you have to take responsibility of your actions for everything you cannot be blaming other people for what happens to you maybe it is the truth that in some cases other people may be to blame for one or two events in your life, but in general you need to take control, I hope I am answering your question that is my philosophy, my, I mean, it starts like that. Sadly, I'm seeing some people, you know, online and on social media that says that it is a lie, that if you work hard, you're never going to get anywhere because everything is already decided by the elites and the white people of this nation or something like that. And I truly and completely disagree with that. You need to work hard. And if you do, positive results will take place in your life, even if those positive results are not the ones that you imagined in the first place or of a lesser magnitude that you were expecting, but they will happen. I mean, and if you have, I think that philosophy is actually dangerous. The thing that, no, it doesn't matter what, how much you do, you're never going to get out of your bog or your, whatever situation is that you're in. I think it's a dangerous attitude and anyway, that's what I think. I hope I have answered your question.
DV: Yeah. Thank you. Well, to conclude, what do you hope for the future? Be it for your own personal life or professional life or for your community?
AB: In my personal life, I hope I still have a job in twenty years. Hopefully it's going to be--.
DV: Before the machines take your job right.
AB: Yeah, either this job or a better paid job than the one that I have. I hope there's still a social security net by the time I retire. I certainly hope that. About the community, I think eventually the community will grow. Here in North Carolina, there are already a lot of Hispanics that were born in this land. And they will come to be, you know, leaders in their own community. And not only in the Hispanic community, but they will be leaders, period, of all the community. I think that's going to happen. And I hope that at some point when we think about Hispanics, we don't think it under that slant of poverty and disadvantage and disenfranchisement. And when we think of Hispanics, we're going to be a true engine of the society. We will not need, you know, society's pity to get along. Not to get along, to move along, I hope that eventually that's how it's going to be. And we will not need intermediaries, right, to reach the society as a whole. We will not need a spokesperson or somebody that speaks for us. And we will be able to, you know, to just be just like every other community here that doesn't need special dispensations to, I think that's how eventually it's going to be. Because I think most of what we are here to do is working, right? And that's what we came here for, to work and to build a solid and stable future for our children and our families in general. And eventually, I think it will happen, and we will come to be very mature, like in other parts of the United States, right. In Florida and in California and Texas, where there is no more any dissonance, right. It's not either Hispanic or American, you know, and you can be, you will be able to be American even though you're Hispanic and there will not be this bifurcated perception of you eventually that will come to pass and that will, and it will be naturally embraced by society as a whole, I think, and I hope that's what the future will bring to us all.
DV: Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts and your experiences with us, Adolfo.
AB: Sure, absolutely, my pleasure. I hope it is my contribution to this wonderful project that you guys are doing.
DV: Thank you, and see you next time.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Transcribers: Sofia Godoy & Daniel Velásquez
Interview Date: 2023 May 26
Date of Transcription: 2023 August 7 / Revisions: 2023 October 19
Dublin Core
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Title
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R-1006 -- Briceño, Adolfo.
Description
An account of the resource
Adolfo Briceño is Program Manager of Human Relations and Diversity, Equity and Inclusion at the City of Winston-Salem. He shares his early life experience in Mérida, Mexico, where he was born and educated. Having studied economics, he grew disillusioned with the field while working as a mortgage analyst at a Cancún bank and switched careers to become a journalist for El Diario de Yucatán. During his tenure there, Adolfo was approached with a job opportunity by Qué Pasa, a North Carolina-based newsletter serving the state’s Spanish-speaking community. After five years at Qué Pasa, he again switched careers to work in fair housing investigation and landlord-tenant mediation for the City of Winston-Salem. Though his duties have expanded, he still works in this role today. Adolfo shares several stories from his time as a journalist, including his coverage of deportation, and imparts his thoughts on discrimination in the US drawn from his experiences in local government.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
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No restrictions. Open to research
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2023-05-26
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29334">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
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R1006_Audio.mp3
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https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/ba8764e0170c4077f14369d697d09c05.mp3
1f83ae206e258ed2e0daea494b245d6e
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/dc5bd5d317f674ca4bcd5a6f5fb55c32.pdf
480c7f4118d2cd93900d746f003921af
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0990
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
2018-06-19
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Bridwell, Robert.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
City planners
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1949
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Male
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Albequerque -- New Mexico
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Sanford -- Lee County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
NA
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Graham, Alexandra.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
This interview was conducted by interviewer Alexandra Graham with interviewee Deacon Robert (Bob) Bridwell. The main focus of the interview is Deacon Bridwell’s responsibilities at St. Stephen Catholic Church. Much of his work in the church surrounds immigration services. He tells us about the services St. Stephen’s provides as well as what projects he personally works on. He shares about his long career of city planning and activism and talks about how demographic changes in Lee County (the county where he resides) have reshaped the needs of community members and therefore what services he works with. He talks about the biggest challenges facing immigrant families (majority Hispanic/Latino) in rural North Carolina and how his church is working to provide solutions and resources for those problems. He also discusses his involvement in the Building Integrated Communities initiative, a collaboration with the City of Sanford, Lee County, and the Latino Migration Project at UNC Chapel Hill. The interview, which took place in Deacon Bridwell’s office at St. Stephen Catholic Church, lasted about 37 minutes. Outside of his office, construction was going on to build a new addition to the church. There were construction noises throughout the interview, but it does not interfere with the ability to hear what was said.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Robert Bridwell, 19 June 2018, R-0990, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/28600
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Integration and segregation; Community and social services and programs; Religion; Dreamers and DACA; Receiving Communities
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Alexandra Graham: I almost forgot to ask you. Do you have any Hispanic members of staff at the church?
Robert Bridwell: Yes, absolutely. Especially with a parish this size. It has a large Hispanic population. We have a Hispanic minister. [inaudible]. A full-time staff member. We have two other deacons besides myself who are Hispanic deacons. The church administrative assistant and interpreter and girl we rely on completely is Hispanic. We, there’s a lot—she gives us a lot of assistance in interpreting. And just a lot of our groups are very involved in working with Hispanic programs. Our youth minister who’s not Hispanic, I mean, most of her population that she works with are Hispanic children. And our faith formation director here, the majority of the children that she works with are Hispanic. So, you know, we have a full-service Hispanic program that’s going on here. Probably could expand it like most churches could. But we spend a lot of time and a lot of effort trying to serve their needs.
AG: Thanks again, Deacon.
RB: Sure thing. Today, to a large extent, we’re ones that were characterized by very substantial rural population with a few good, decent size cities. Not a lot. And then that’s transitioned obviously traumatically over the years where, you know, we have a very large and dynamic metropolitan areas. But those rural areas are still pretty much rural. Especially when I lived in eastern North Carolina where the Hispanic population, the Latino population, were pretty much restricted to farmworkers, migrant workers that were coming up from Mexico. And that’s what I experienced until I came to Sanford, when I came here from Rocky Mount. Both from a Catholic standpoint and also as a public servant. Most of the experiences I had with the Hispanic population were migrant workers who were working on large farms in Nash County and Edgecombe County. When I came here, they were just starting to have that first wave of Hispanics that were coming here to work in nonagricultural industries. They were coming to work for the poultry houses that had been recruiting them heavily throughout Mexico. And for Tyson foods here in Sanford who’s responsible for making taco shells. And some of the other industries like Cody got Cosmex manufacturers that were also stating to recruit them. When I first came to Sanford in Lee County, still was not really aware that much of the Hispanic population. My first inclination was at church. We were in our previous location then, and the Hispanic wave of population coming into the area integrating, migrating into the community had just started. All of a sudden it seemed like overnight the church was packed in the Spanish mass. And they only had one back then. And they had to add a second one. And then more families seemed to appear. So, I started to think and notice from my standpoint of being the community’s planner, when we started looking at the demographics. So, it was 2002, so the census data was just starting to come in. In nineteen--in the last census--the 1990 census, the Hispanic population was probably less than two percent of the total population. By the time of the 2000 census, that had jumped up dramatically to the extent that probably over eighteen percent of the county population was Hispanic and a little higher percentage of the city population--. About 20 percent. About 1 out of 5. And we were starting to see that at the church. That’s when we said at church that we needed to do something to accommodate the population and we started looking at plans for a larger parish community here. The same thing was happening at work. The city and the county were starting to recognize that they had this huge influx of population but until we started analyzing the data we didn’t even realize what that meant. [Coughs]. So, we were starting to get phone calls from the school system asking for data because their school-age population was literally exploding. And that occurred very, very dramatically during the first decade of the new century until 2010 where we saw all these people really filling up everywhere we went. To the school system, to where we were seeing in housing, the demand for services. This church where we had to literally invent a Hispanic program here because all of a sudden, we had more Hispanics in the church than we had Anglos. And Anglo being a real roughly defined term. So, we had to kind of reinvent everything here going forward to try to address a population that largely did not speak English and had very specific needs as to what they were demanding. So that was a pretty unusual thing to work with and I had never really had that kind of experience. But I had a very sincere interest having grown up in the South during the year of, from going to segregation and the integration of schools, and working on various issues when I was a student trying to understand that. And seeing the same kind of issues starting to crop up with this whole new population coming in. I was having, as a professional, and as a Christian, trying to make adjustments. How do I approach this? How do I look at this population? Gosh, I wasn’t really sure what to do or how to respond appropriately.
AG: Thank you. So, you have a really long career as the director of planning. How have you been involved in planning for demographic changes such as this throughout your career?
RB: Well again, early in my career it was trying to make sure we were trying to address the various demographic segments in our communities. You know, a lot of time as city planners we do that from an age and income standpoint. And then, obviously during an era that I grew up in, an area of desegregation, we were also trying to make sure that the government was responsive of all of its citizens’ populations. And, including those of race. That is always a real challenge when you start to intersperse a political philosophies and orientations of governing and all the various aspects that create the dynamics of any community. But from a planning standpoint, our job, my job was the make sure that all the services and that people need for their daily lives, you know, whether it be water and sewer, or adequate schools or recreation facilities, that all these populations were adequately served and to make sure that we understood the dynamics that were going on with the various demographics of the community. Black white, young, old, rich poor. You know, whatever it needs to serve that community. When the Hispanic population started to come in, we started looking at another dynamic of people who need extra services because they were literally being integrated into a community as immigrants pretty much like what my grandparents went through and what my mother went through. Which they were integrated into this country from Ireland. So, trying to understand those dynamics and specific services was really, really important. Added to that, the growth of the Hispanic population in this community and many communities was just huge and expansive through almost two decades. Then, all of a sudden, the recession hit and it all kind of went [noise] stopped. I don't know that we saw a real reverse of Hispanics. We didn't see a lot of Hispanics moving away from this community after the recession hit in 2008, but we've seen, certainly saw April slowdown. One of the things that, that kept striking me is, is the dynamics that hits any immigrant population is that they're not static. They don't stay the same. And especially with the Hispanic population because we had all this massive amount of people who came into this community. Largely with, with little skills. Very little English, limited education, limited understanding of how a community like this operates and how they could get their needs fulfilled. All that was started at that point and then started the transition because they started having children. And it doesn't take long for children, little children to become big children and big children become adults. So literally today we're going through that transition of, of folks that are coming in as immigrants. Many of them are undocumented to having children. A lot of the DACA kids that we, that we worked with through the years to them also becoming American kids. But being born here such to the point, a couple of, about three months ago, I did a sermon here one Sunday speaking to the Anglo community. And I asked them to raise their hands, how many were from Lee County. And of course, from a community like this and a Catholic community, just a sprinkling of hands were raised at that mass. And I told them that if I were to go to the Spanish mass and asked the same question, probably half of the people in there would have raised their hands if they were born and raised in Lee County. So, the significant dynamics of the Hispanic--. Of the immigrant population becoming Americanized, Anglicized, was becoming pretty evident. To this day that you can go to the English mass in, there are large number of Hispanic families that now go to the English mass rather than a Spanish mass. Kind of rambled on that but--.
AG: No, that’s very interesting information. So--.
AG: When did you become a deacon of St. Stephens and how long have you been a part of this community? And could you tell us a little bit of what your role is at the church?
RB: About ten years ago, for a variety of reasons, I decided to go back to my original calling because I had thought I was going to be a priest. And the opportunity to become an ordained Catholic Deacon became available. And I waited for the first class that I could apply. A deacon in the Catholic church is so goes through similar training that that of a Catholic priest would go through except for not--. Or we stop at a point that that precedes becoming a priest. We were ordained as deacons and all priests ordained as deacons before they're priests. So, I entered into the formation for the diaconate program in 2009 and was in formation for five years as a deacon. And during that period of time, I think that's when I became more intensely interested in serving the Hispanic population here because one of my assignments was to serve at the Hispanic masses. So that's when I started doing that. I also became very involved with the priesthood we were assigned shortly thereafter, who came in here not only to serve the religious and spiritual needs of the parish, but also had been trained in assisting in their immigration needs as well. The pastor here is a certified immigration specialist. So, I started working with him during my training as a deacon, also being trained to assist people in their in their immigration needs as well. So, in 2014, I had two things happen in my life. One is I retired from public service after 45 years. And the second thing is I was ordained a Catholic deacon all along with 14 other men. And that's when I started my clerical career here. So, serving this parish as a deacon and also helping and assisting with the immigration services ward here in this parish.
AG: So, what are some of the challenges that you’ve encountered in this role?
RB: My number one challenge was language. I am not skilled in language at all, so that is always has been and continues to be a struggle. But probably one of the more difficult things is to try to work in situations that are intimidating. And I don't mean intimidating physically. I mean because I don't, I'm not sure that I always have the skills necessary to help. One of those is in the area of immigration work where I work with families that are applying for U-visas. And as you'll probably ask me later on, that involves people that have been the subject or the targets of crime. And some of the stories in some of the work in dealing with that has been hard on me. I'm dealing with the tragedies [inaudible] on some of these families. So that's probably been one of the bigger challenges. That and the language and, sometimes feeling inadequate to serve the multiple needs of a lot of these families that have lots of things that they need help on. Not just one, but my ultimate need is to serve their spiritual needs. So, I try to keep going back to that and then just trying to reach out and using some of the skills that I may have from other parts of my life.
AG: How many Spanish speaking parishes are there?
RB: There is a bunch. This is a community of roughly 6,500. Over 4,000 of that population are Hispanic. So, we're probably two thirds Hispanic at this parish. Yeah. And I'm not alone in that. We have two priests here. The Pastor does speak Spanish, as I mentioned. And we have two Hispanic deacons as well. And we also have another deacon that works within the Anglo community. But you're going to ask some more questions on that later on that, aren't you? And I’ll just delay that. Give you an answer to that.
AG: Could you tell us a little bit more about how St. Stephens has been supportive to immigrants in Lee County? So, this could be, what kinds of services does the church offer to immigrants? Maybe legal resources? You could tell us a little bit more about the U-Visa program or DACA workshops.
RB: Well, we've been really, really involved in that. Like I said, with the priest that came here, came here up here from down in your neck of the woods from Shalom. When he was down here with St. Brandon's, [inaudible] was certified as an immigration specialist before he came up here. So, when they came to this community, then there's two priests that came here from the order that they represent. They had some special skillsets that this community really, really needed. As I said, the depth of the Hispanic population in this area was very, very significant, not only in the parish, but throughout the region. The priest Father Robert Ippolito was also engaged with Catholic charities. So. we're serving more on a regional basis and not just the parish community. So, we've done a number of things. One of the first massive things that was done was the original DACA applications. This parish held multiple workshops trying to assist the, those young people in that process and probably has close to 1200 that we worked with, the not just in his parish but throughout the region. And they’ll come as far away as southeastern North Carolina, and as far as Charlotte. So, we're certainly a larger--. But most of them are concentrated here within this multi county area. So, we've done an extensive amount of work on, on DACA. Which until the, the president’s order, was a very significant part of the work that I've been doing. Then we've also been doing a lot of U-Visa work and I think we have a real expertise here and we get people from all over the diocese come to this location. And we also, the pastor has another office in Raleigh, so we end up servicing a lot of them. And my role in that is I--. My primary role in that is helping with the paperwork that goes along with the U-Visa applications and writing the transmittal letter. And the transmittal letter is a very formal document that shows how the application has met all the requirements of the U-Visa program, especially including the local law enforcement involvement. But I also have to write the stories. The stories of what the victims had been through. And again, that's probably the most difficult thing that I've had to deal with is writing notes. But we also do all full range of immigration services, including change of status, alien registration, the citizenship classes. We hold citizenship classes here and work with the applications. We do a variety of things. Most of that is done by Father Ippolito who is the certified representative. But we also have tried very hard to respond to some of the special crisis's that the Latino population has gone through. One of those for instances, we've held workshops on power of attorneys. We've held workshops on, well, you know, what do you do if large numbers of parents are removed from their children, much like we're experiencing right at this moment. And trying to help them with the legal aspects of that and the support aspects of that of trying to work through those very difficult situations and sometimes just responding to rumors. I know that the father was gone while one week and I was doing some work in Raleigh and I got a phone call from one of our parishioners that ICE was doing raids at Walmart. So, I drop whatever I was doing and raced all the way back to the parish to find out what was going on. In the meantime, calling my friends at local law enforcement here who have always been very helpful by the way. And in discovering that was just a rumor was something put out on, on one of the Hispanic radio stations. And it ended up being false alarm, but we were trying to respond because it was so significantly not only affect this parish, but all the Hispanic community that we feel responsible for because at the end of the day as Catholics, social justice is one of our principles that we stay very focused on.
AG: Thank you. So, what are, apart from some of the things that you've already mentioned, some of the biggest challenges that persists for local immigrants and their families?
RB: Well, we worked quite extensively with UNC on a process called the Latino Migration Project. That was a three-year study. That study resulted from my discovering what they were doing and making an application. And we had that study done here. We learned many, many things. I learned many things. I believe city government, county government, learned many things on the needs of the Hispanic population. The needs shouldn't be surprising to most people because the Hispanic population, the families want what any family wants. They want safety and security. They want the dignity of having a job, of having a job that they can afford to raise their families with. So, you know, we need to stay focused on that regardless of what happens on the national scene. We feel like we have an obligation to those families, to those people trying to achieve what any American citizen would want. And increasingly that's who these people are and that's to find a life for themselves and satisfy the needs of themselves and their family. So that's what I try to keep my attention focused on is how do we do that? Not in a static way, but in a change way? How do we provide for their needs as they make those transitions? Many of the Hispanic population, you know, came here to work and have jobs now are getting elderly and I don't think anybody's doing an adequate job of trying to address their needs, especially if they're undocumented because they have no way of having those needs addressed. There's no social security. There's no Medicaid for them. But there's going to be this massive population that are just going to continue to fall through the cracks. But then there are the families and the young children and how do we meet their needs? The DACA kids. Many of whom are very successful in high school are being accepted to colleges and having--. Are being forced to pay these massive tuitions that they can’t afford and trying to make a life for themselves and wanting to become Americans. And right now, everything's being closed off to them. So, so those are just some of the things that keep me up at night. I'm sure keeps them Father Ippolito up. And all the people here. We have a Hispanic--. Right next door is our Hispanic minister who that's what her job is. Is trying to serve those needs. So, you know, there is a pretty, pretty challenging things, especially in an environment we have today.
AG: Okay. Have you seen any large changes in the way that people are feeling about maybe security since the election or any instances of family separation?
RB: We fortunately have not had any real family separation here, likes it’s being experienced on the border. No, that's just not, has not been a massive problem. It's not that it isn't a problem because it's always potentially there. The biggest thing that’s going on right now is just the incredible anxiety and uncertainty of people just don't know what's going to happen. And there is nothing that's happening right now and nothing that I see in the foreseeable future that seems to be heading towards any kind of resolution. I mean, I, it's really hard for people. It's hard for me when I, when I can't find a resolution or when I see conflict that I, I can't resolve it. And I am, you know, an older middle-class white guy with all the privileges that go with that. And how would you feel if, if every day of your life you didn't, you didn't even know if somebody was going to knock on your door and take you away. And your children are going to be left here. I mean that's hard to live with and it just is so disconcerting. One of the things that is happening in this community is that, and that I'm very proud of, is this is a community that has a lot of compassion and that people are concerned about that and they're trying to be supportive. They're trying to be supportive at the governmental level, at the civic level. Not just this church, but all the churches. They understand those issues and are trying to be whatever help they can be. But at the end of the day, if I don't know what's going to happen to me, if someone knocks on my door. That's a horrible way to live and it's just so sad and injustice.
AG: Moving topics a little bit. Could you tell us a little bit about the Building Integrated Communities project in Siler City and how you’ve been involved with that?
RB: I have not been directly involved in that project. Of course, I was very involved in the one here in Sanford and Lee County, but we're trying to serve as a resource for them in Siler City. It's not going to be as a larger community as this one was here, but they're going to have many of the same issues that are going on. Coincidentally, I also work with the St. Julia Catholic church in Siler City. And so, I'm having those conversations with that parish as well. And the former police chief and I are friends. So, we've had many conversations and there are some wonderful people in Siler city. Both in the Hispanic community and the Anglo community. I'm very involved with the boys and Girls Club for Sanford and Lee County and Chatham County, including Siler City, which has a very active boys and girls club. So, we're trying to also use those kinds of mechanisms to try to feed into whatever [inaudible] they have going forward. But I have a pretty good feeling about Siler City because they are a very open and receptive community. That's not always boasted upon or promoted too much outside of small communities like ours, but it's very important. And I think the compassion that any community has is very important.
AG: Could you tell me a bit about the Building Integrated Communities project in Sanford?
RB: It was a wonderful program. Again, before I retired and while I was in formation for the Deaconate program, I made the application for the project. At that time there was only a few communities who had been through it. Winston-Salem and Greenville stick out in my mind. I think there were a couple of others. But we were one of the very first ones. And when Jessica Lee White and Dr. Gill came to us and we talked about the program, we just use that as a jumping point to try to get into issues that we thought were extremely important. And we had some real successes. The research that took place that we were very much involved in. Having a very active geographic information system program here. We were very, very able to supply a lot of the information we need it for the research. To have those public meetings for the Hispanic population probably for the first time really had a chance to come and speak about their needs, especially to appointed and elected officials to, the police chief and the sheriff and social services, the schools. It was just really nice to see. Let them have that opportunity to speak about their needs. So that was a very interesting process and I think some folks were surprised. The first thing that surprised me was the number of Hispanics who were willing to come out and talk. Again, you know, a lot of them were under the fear of deportation or being recorded or having--. But they were coming out sometimes a little reluctantly, but they were coming out in this environment that we tried to keep a feeling of trust and confidence and speaking about their needs. So, we had, I think, a lot of success in that the formation of the Hispanic Council here which has been very active. It was very helpful. The mayor was extremely supportive. Coming to speak at these events who came and spoke at an event one day where there was, gosh, several hundred people inside our church to speak to them, saying that the community, the city, wanted to help support their needs and be responsive to them. The police department coming and saying we want to help you. We don't want to just, you know, catch you driving without a license. So, or the lawyers coming in and talking about, you know, how to do powers of attorney. So, we had a lot of success during that process, both within the formal structure of the Latino Migration Project, but also add on things. Just ways to support the needs that they might have. One of our churches across town, the United Methodist Church in Jonesboro, created a program called El Refugio, which they got a grant from Duke and they were trying to serve Hispanic needs. The community college was very specific in trying to serve a lot of needs. So, all those things that happened during that process. And were all very successful and I'm very proud of the success that we had. But we also had some failures. One of the needs that we kept hearing over and over and over again was because the undocumented population are denied the ability to get a driver's license. They couldn't do simple things like go to the bank and cash a check or, you know, go to the grocery store and show an id or anything that everybody else is pretty comfortable with. And we tried really, really hard to develop a local ID program here, which like they've done in other communities. So, they were very successful in doing it in Burlington. Asheboro, I believe was successful in doing it. We couldn't get the first base here. There was--. It was about this time that the legislature was passing, trying to pass a bill that the disallowed any kind of local IDs. We just had a lot of resistance and were never able to get that done. And I was disappointed that that couldn't happen and still think is something that we should do. But the other biggest disappointment. I'm going to say is a disappointment. The Latino population, they need to become more and more engaged. Quickly. Because they are so significant. And we're talking about people who are citizens now. A significant percentage of our population are Hispanic. They need to be running for public office. You know, being an Irish American, you know, I knew that's what they, my family, our folks did in places like Boston and Philadelphia and New York. And the Latino population here has got to do the same thing. They've got to become engaged in the civic activities and political activities in one of these communities so that they are adequately represented and can speak for themselves.
AG: Could you tell me a little bit more about the positive outcomes and maybe the lasting effects of that BIC program? Things that you still see today?
RB: I think the very seeds, the mustard seeds, to use a religious term, of that process of that small little seeds is that they will start taking that process of being integrated into these communities and letting it blossom to become again engaged. This is not something that's going to happen overnight, but because of this project, I think a leadership structure is now being established within the Hispanic community. I think that that the recognition of the entire community, the Anglo community, the community at large, are recognizing that the Hispanic population is not only here but important. I know that a number of elected officials realize how important that population is. Our business community understands that if that population wasn't here, this community would take a significant economic hit. So that feeling of mutual need and mutual support, I think starting with this product and has grown pretty significantly since, since the project started and continues to grow every day.
AG: Thank you. That's most of what I have prepared. But is there anything else that you'd like to add? Maybe about the church or the community or anything in your career that you've experienced?
RB: I have gotten a lot of satisfaction in not only working on this project but also working in this community, both as a public servant and also as a member of the clergy. It has added dimensions to my life, you know, I'm almost 70 years old that I didn't really expect to happen in my life. So, it's been a very satisfying, very gratifying. But it's also made me more aware of what has always attracted me to my own faith. And that's that Catholic social justice that probably got birthed to me in the very early part of my life when I looked around and saw so much injustice in a country that promises justice and equality. It gave me the opportunity to say I need to be a part of it. And here at the end of my career, later in my life, I'm having the ability to fulfill a lot of things that started out when, gosh, when I was a teenager. And it's been very important to me and very gratifying.
AG: Thank you very much.
RB: You’re welcome very much.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Urbanistas
Es: Género de entrevistado
Hombre
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Temas
Integración y segregación; Programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios; Religión; Movimiento de jóvenes 'Soñadores' y Acción Diferida; Comunidades receptoras
Es: Transcripción
Alexandra Graham: I almost forgot to ask you. Do you have any Hispanic members of staff at the church?
Robert Bridwell: Yes, absolutely. Especially with a parish this size. It has a large Hispanic population. We have a Hispanic minister. [inaudible]. A full-time staff member. We have two other deacons besides myself who are Hispanic deacons. The church administrative assistant and interpreter and girl we rely on completely is Hispanic. We, there’s a lot—she gives us a lot of assistance in interpreting. And just a lot of our groups are very involved in working with Hispanic programs. Our youth minister who’s not Hispanic, I mean, most of her population that she works with are Hispanic children. And our faith formation director here, the majority of the children that she works with are Hispanic. So, you know, we have a full-service Hispanic program that’s going on here. Probably could expand it like most churches could. But we spend a lot of time and a lot of effort trying to serve their needs.
AG: Thanks again, Deacon.
RB: Sure thing. Today, to a large extent, we’re ones that were characterized by very substantial rural population with a few good, decent size cities. Not a lot. And then that’s transitioned obviously traumatically over the years where, you know, we have a very large and dynamic metropolitan areas. But those rural areas are still pretty much rural. Especially when I lived in eastern North Carolina where the Hispanic population, the Latino population, were pretty much restricted to farmworkers, migrant workers that were coming up from Mexico. And that’s what I experienced until I came to Sanford, when I came here from Rocky Mount. Both from a Catholic standpoint and also as a public servant. Most of the experiences I had with the Hispanic population were migrant workers who were working on large farms in Nash County and Edgecombe County. When I came here, they were just starting to have that first wave of Hispanics that were coming here to work in nonagricultural industries. They were coming to work for the poultry houses that had been recruiting them heavily throughout Mexico. And for Tyson foods here in Sanford who’s responsible for making taco shells. And some of the other industries like Cody got Cosmex manufacturers that were also stating to recruit them. When I first came to Sanford in Lee County, still was not really aware that much of the Hispanic population. My first inclination was at church. We were in our previous location then, and the Hispanic wave of population coming into the area integrating, migrating into the community had just started. All of a sudden it seemed like overnight the church was packed in the Spanish mass. And they only had one back then. And they had to add a second one. And then more families seemed to appear. So, I started to think and notice from my standpoint of being the community’s planner, when we started looking at the demographics. So, it was 2002, so the census data was just starting to come in. In nineteen--in the last census--the 1990 census, the Hispanic population was probably less than two percent of the total population. By the time of the 2000 census, that had jumped up dramatically to the extent that probably over eighteen percent of the county population was Hispanic and a little higher percentage of the city population--. About 20 percent. About 1 out of 5. And we were starting to see that at the church. That’s when we said at church that we needed to do something to accommodate the population and we started looking at plans for a larger parish community here. The same thing was happening at work. The city and the county were starting to recognize that they had this huge influx of population but until we started analyzing the data we didn’t even realize what that meant. [Coughs]. So, we were starting to get phone calls from the school system asking for data because their school-age population was literally exploding. And that occurred very, very dramatically during the first decade of the new century until 2010 where we saw all these people really filling up everywhere we went. To the school system, to where we were seeing in housing, the demand for services. This church where we had to literally invent a Hispanic program here because all of a sudden, we had more Hispanics in the church than we had Anglos. And Anglo being a real roughly defined term. So, we had to kind of reinvent everything here going forward to try to address a population that largely did not speak English and had very specific needs as to what they were demanding. So that was a pretty unusual thing to work with and I had never really had that kind of experience. But I had a very sincere interest having grown up in the South during the year of, from going to segregation and the integration of schools, and working on various issues when I was a student trying to understand that. And seeing the same kind of issues starting to crop up with this whole new population coming in. I was having, as a professional, and as a Christian, trying to make adjustments. How do I approach this? How do I look at this population? Gosh, I wasn’t really sure what to do or how to respond appropriately.
AG: Thank you. So, you have a really long career as the director of planning. How have you been involved in planning for demographic changes such as this throughout your career?
RB: Well again, early in my career it was trying to make sure we were trying to address the various demographic segments in our communities. You know, a lot of time as city planners we do that from an age and income standpoint. And then, obviously during an era that I grew up in, an area of desegregation, we were also trying to make sure that the government was responsive of all of its citizens’ populations. And, including those of race. That is always a real challenge when you start to intersperse a political philosophies and orientations of governing and all the various aspects that create the dynamics of any community. But from a planning standpoint, our job, my job was the make sure that all the services and that people need for their daily lives, you know, whether it be water and sewer, or adequate schools or recreation facilities, that all these populations were adequately served and to make sure that we understood the dynamics that were going on with the various demographics of the community. Black white, young, old, rich poor. You know, whatever it needs to serve that community. When the Hispanic population started to come in, we started looking at another dynamic of people who need extra services because they were literally being integrated into a community as immigrants pretty much like what my grandparents went through and what my mother went through. Which they were integrated into this country from Ireland. So, trying to understand those dynamics and specific services was really, really important. Added to that, the growth of the Hispanic population in this community and many communities was just huge and expansive through almost two decades. Then, all of a sudden, the recession hit and it all kind of went [noise] stopped. I don't know that we saw a real reverse of Hispanics. We didn't see a lot of Hispanics moving away from this community after the recession hit in 2008, but we've seen, certainly saw April slowdown. One of the things that, that kept striking me is, is the dynamics that hits any immigrant population is that they're not static. They don't stay the same. And especially with the Hispanic population because we had all this massive amount of people who came into this community. Largely with, with little skills. Very little English, limited education, limited understanding of how a community like this operates and how they could get their needs fulfilled. All that was started at that point and then started the transition because they started having children. And it doesn't take long for children, little children to become big children and big children become adults. So literally today we're going through that transition of, of folks that are coming in as immigrants. Many of them are undocumented to having children. A lot of the DACA kids that we, that we worked with through the years to them also becoming American kids. But being born here such to the point, a couple of, about three months ago, I did a sermon here one Sunday speaking to the Anglo community. And I asked them to raise their hands, how many were from Lee County. And of course, from a community like this and a Catholic community, just a sprinkling of hands were raised at that mass. And I told them that if I were to go to the Spanish mass and asked the same question, probably half of the people in there would have raised their hands if they were born and raised in Lee County. So, the significant dynamics of the Hispanic--. Of the immigrant population becoming Americanized, Anglicized, was becoming pretty evident. To this day that you can go to the English mass in, there are large number of Hispanic families that now go to the English mass rather than a Spanish mass. Kind of rambled on that but--.
AG: No, that’s very interesting information. So--.
AG: When did you become a deacon of St. Stephens and how long have you been a part of this community? And could you tell us a little bit of what your role is at the church?
RB: About ten years ago, for a variety of reasons, I decided to go back to my original calling because I had thought I was going to be a priest. And the opportunity to become an ordained Catholic Deacon became available. And I waited for the first class that I could apply. A deacon in the Catholic church is so goes through similar training that that of a Catholic priest would go through except for not--. Or we stop at a point that that precedes becoming a priest. We were ordained as deacons and all priests ordained as deacons before they're priests. So, I entered into the formation for the diaconate program in 2009 and was in formation for five years as a deacon. And during that period of time, I think that's when I became more intensely interested in serving the Hispanic population here because one of my assignments was to serve at the Hispanic masses. So that's when I started doing that. I also became very involved with the priesthood we were assigned shortly thereafter, who came in here not only to serve the religious and spiritual needs of the parish, but also had been trained in assisting in their immigration needs as well. The pastor here is a certified immigration specialist. So, I started working with him during my training as a deacon, also being trained to assist people in their in their immigration needs as well. So, in 2014, I had two things happen in my life. One is I retired from public service after 45 years. And the second thing is I was ordained a Catholic deacon all along with 14 other men. And that's when I started my clerical career here. So, serving this parish as a deacon and also helping and assisting with the immigration services ward here in this parish.
AG: So, what are some of the challenges that you’ve encountered in this role?
RB: My number one challenge was language. I am not skilled in language at all, so that is always has been and continues to be a struggle. But probably one of the more difficult things is to try to work in situations that are intimidating. And I don't mean intimidating physically. I mean because I don't, I'm not sure that I always have the skills necessary to help. One of those is in the area of immigration work where I work with families that are applying for U-visas. And as you'll probably ask me later on, that involves people that have been the subject or the targets of crime. And some of the stories in some of the work in dealing with that has been hard on me. I'm dealing with the tragedies [inaudible] on some of these families. So that's probably been one of the bigger challenges. That and the language and, sometimes feeling inadequate to serve the multiple needs of a lot of these families that have lots of things that they need help on. Not just one, but my ultimate need is to serve their spiritual needs. So, I try to keep going back to that and then just trying to reach out and using some of the skills that I may have from other parts of my life.
AG: How many Spanish speaking parishes are there?
RB: There is a bunch. This is a community of roughly 6,500. Over 4,000 of that population are Hispanic. So, we're probably two thirds Hispanic at this parish. Yeah. And I'm not alone in that. We have two priests here. The Pastor does speak Spanish, as I mentioned. And we have two Hispanic deacons as well. And we also have another deacon that works within the Anglo community. But you're going to ask some more questions on that later on that, aren't you? And I’ll just delay that. Give you an answer to that.
AG: Could you tell us a little bit more about how St. Stephens has been supportive to immigrants in Lee County? So, this could be, what kinds of services does the church offer to immigrants? Maybe legal resources? You could tell us a little bit more about the U-Visa program or DACA workshops.
RB: Well, we've been really, really involved in that. Like I said, with the priest that came here, came here up here from down in your neck of the woods from Shalom. When he was down here with St. Brandon's, [inaudible] was certified as an immigration specialist before he came up here. So, when they came to this community, then there's two priests that came here from the order that they represent. They had some special skillsets that this community really, really needed. As I said, the depth of the Hispanic population in this area was very, very significant, not only in the parish, but throughout the region. The priest Father Robert Ippolito was also engaged with Catholic charities. So. we're serving more on a regional basis and not just the parish community. So, we've done a number of things. One of the first massive things that was done was the original DACA applications. This parish held multiple workshops trying to assist the, those young people in that process and probably has close to 1200 that we worked with, the not just in his parish but throughout the region. And they’ll come as far away as southeastern North Carolina, and as far as Charlotte. So, we're certainly a larger--. But most of them are concentrated here within this multi county area. So, we've done an extensive amount of work on, on DACA. Which until the, the president’s order, was a very significant part of the work that I've been doing. Then we've also been doing a lot of U-Visa work and I think we have a real expertise here and we get people from all over the diocese come to this location. And we also, the pastor has another office in Raleigh, so we end up servicing a lot of them. And my role in that is I--. My primary role in that is helping with the paperwork that goes along with the U-Visa applications and writing the transmittal letter. And the transmittal letter is a very formal document that shows how the application has met all the requirements of the U-Visa program, especially including the local law enforcement involvement. But I also have to write the stories. The stories of what the victims had been through. And again, that's probably the most difficult thing that I've had to deal with is writing notes. But we also do all full range of immigration services, including change of status, alien registration, the citizenship classes. We hold citizenship classes here and work with the applications. We do a variety of things. Most of that is done by Father Ippolito who is the certified representative. But we also have tried very hard to respond to some of the special crisis's that the Latino population has gone through. One of those for instances, we've held workshops on power of attorneys. We've held workshops on, well, you know, what do you do if large numbers of parents are removed from their children, much like we're experiencing right at this moment. And trying to help them with the legal aspects of that and the support aspects of that of trying to work through those very difficult situations and sometimes just responding to rumors. I know that the father was gone while one week and I was doing some work in Raleigh and I got a phone call from one of our parishioners that ICE was doing raids at Walmart. So, I drop whatever I was doing and raced all the way back to the parish to find out what was going on. In the meantime, calling my friends at local law enforcement here who have always been very helpful by the way. And in discovering that was just a rumor was something put out on, on one of the Hispanic radio stations. And it ended up being false alarm, but we were trying to respond because it was so significantly not only affect this parish, but all the Hispanic community that we feel responsible for because at the end of the day as Catholics, social justice is one of our principles that we stay very focused on.
AG: Thank you. So, what are, apart from some of the things that you've already mentioned, some of the biggest challenges that persists for local immigrants and their families?
RB: Well, we worked quite extensively with UNC on a process called the Latino Migration Project. That was a three-year study. That study resulted from my discovering what they were doing and making an application. And we had that study done here. We learned many, many things. I learned many things. I believe city government, county government, learned many things on the needs of the Hispanic population. The needs shouldn't be surprising to most people because the Hispanic population, the families want what any family wants. They want safety and security. They want the dignity of having a job, of having a job that they can afford to raise their families with. So, you know, we need to stay focused on that regardless of what happens on the national scene. We feel like we have an obligation to those families, to those people trying to achieve what any American citizen would want. And increasingly that's who these people are and that's to find a life for themselves and satisfy the needs of themselves and their family. So that's what I try to keep my attention focused on is how do we do that? Not in a static way, but in a change way? How do we provide for their needs as they make those transitions? Many of the Hispanic population, you know, came here to work and have jobs now are getting elderly and I don't think anybody's doing an adequate job of trying to address their needs, especially if they're undocumented because they have no way of having those needs addressed. There's no social security. There's no Medicaid for them. But there's going to be this massive population that are just going to continue to fall through the cracks. But then there are the families and the young children and how do we meet their needs? The DACA kids. Many of whom are very successful in high school are being accepted to colleges and having--. Are being forced to pay these massive tuitions that they can’t afford and trying to make a life for themselves and wanting to become Americans. And right now, everything's being closed off to them. So, so those are just some of the things that keep me up at night. I'm sure keeps them Father Ippolito up. And all the people here. We have a Hispanic--. Right next door is our Hispanic minister who that's what her job is. Is trying to serve those needs. So, you know, there is a pretty, pretty challenging things, especially in an environment we have today.
AG: Okay. Have you seen any large changes in the way that people are feeling about maybe security since the election or any instances of family separation?
RB: We fortunately have not had any real family separation here, likes it’s being experienced on the border. No, that's just not, has not been a massive problem. It's not that it isn't a problem because it's always potentially there. The biggest thing that’s going on right now is just the incredible anxiety and uncertainty of people just don't know what's going to happen. And there is nothing that's happening right now and nothing that I see in the foreseeable future that seems to be heading towards any kind of resolution. I mean, I, it's really hard for people. It's hard for me when I, when I can't find a resolution or when I see conflict that I, I can't resolve it. And I am, you know, an older middle-class white guy with all the privileges that go with that. And how would you feel if, if every day of your life you didn't, you didn't even know if somebody was going to knock on your door and take you away. And your children are going to be left here. I mean that's hard to live with and it just is so disconcerting. One of the things that is happening in this community is that, and that I'm very proud of, is this is a community that has a lot of compassion and that people are concerned about that and they're trying to be supportive. They're trying to be supportive at the governmental level, at the civic level. Not just this church, but all the churches. They understand those issues and are trying to be whatever help they can be. But at the end of the day, if I don't know what's going to happen to me, if someone knocks on my door. That's a horrible way to live and it's just so sad and injustice.
AG: Moving topics a little bit. Could you tell us a little bit about the Building Integrated Communities project in Siler City and how you’ve been involved with that?
RB: I have not been directly involved in that project. Of course, I was very involved in the one here in Sanford and Lee County, but we're trying to serve as a resource for them in Siler City. It's not going to be as a larger community as this one was here, but they're going to have many of the same issues that are going on. Coincidentally, I also work with the St. Julia Catholic church in Siler City. And so, I'm having those conversations with that parish as well. And the former police chief and I are friends. So, we've had many conversations and there are some wonderful people in Siler city. Both in the Hispanic community and the Anglo community. I'm very involved with the boys and Girls Club for Sanford and Lee County and Chatham County, including Siler City, which has a very active boys and girls club. So, we're trying to also use those kinds of mechanisms to try to feed into whatever [inaudible] they have going forward. But I have a pretty good feeling about Siler City because they are a very open and receptive community. That's not always boasted upon or promoted too much outside of small communities like ours, but it's very important. And I think the compassion that any community has is very important.
AG: Could you tell me a bit about the Building Integrated Communities project in Sanford?
RB: It was a wonderful program. Again, before I retired and while I was in formation for the Deaconate program, I made the application for the project. At that time there was only a few communities who had been through it. Winston-Salem and Greenville stick out in my mind. I think there were a couple of others. But we were one of the very first ones. And when Jessica Lee White and Dr. Gill came to us and we talked about the program, we just use that as a jumping point to try to get into issues that we thought were extremely important. And we had some real successes. The research that took place that we were very much involved in. Having a very active geographic information system program here. We were very, very able to supply a lot of the information we need it for the research. To have those public meetings for the Hispanic population probably for the first time really had a chance to come and speak about their needs, especially to appointed and elected officials to, the police chief and the sheriff and social services, the schools. It was just really nice to see. Let them have that opportunity to speak about their needs. So that was a very interesting process and I think some folks were surprised. The first thing that surprised me was the number of Hispanics who were willing to come out and talk. Again, you know, a lot of them were under the fear of deportation or being recorded or having--. But they were coming out sometimes a little reluctantly, but they were coming out in this environment that we tried to keep a feeling of trust and confidence and speaking about their needs. So, we had, I think, a lot of success in that the formation of the Hispanic Council here which has been very active. It was very helpful. The mayor was extremely supportive. Coming to speak at these events who came and spoke at an event one day where there was, gosh, several hundred people inside our church to speak to them, saying that the community, the city, wanted to help support their needs and be responsive to them. The police department coming and saying we want to help you. We don't want to just, you know, catch you driving without a license. So, or the lawyers coming in and talking about, you know, how to do powers of attorney. So, we had a lot of success during that process, both within the formal structure of the Latino Migration Project, but also add on things. Just ways to support the needs that they might have. One of our churches across town, the United Methodist Church in Jonesboro, created a program called El Refugio, which they got a grant from Duke and they were trying to serve Hispanic needs. The community college was very specific in trying to serve a lot of needs. So, all those things that happened during that process. And were all very successful and I'm very proud of the success that we had. But we also had some failures. One of the needs that we kept hearing over and over and over again was because the undocumented population are denied the ability to get a driver's license. They couldn't do simple things like go to the bank and cash a check or, you know, go to the grocery store and show an id or anything that everybody else is pretty comfortable with. And we tried really, really hard to develop a local ID program here, which like they've done in other communities. So, they were very successful in doing it in Burlington. Asheboro, I believe was successful in doing it. We couldn't get the first base here. There was--. It was about this time that the legislature was passing, trying to pass a bill that the disallowed any kind of local IDs. We just had a lot of resistance and were never able to get that done. And I was disappointed that that couldn't happen and still think is something that we should do. But the other biggest disappointment. I'm going to say is a disappointment. The Latino population, they need to become more and more engaged. Quickly. Because they are so significant. And we're talking about people who are citizens now. A significant percentage of our population are Hispanic. They need to be running for public office. You know, being an Irish American, you know, I knew that's what they, my family, our folks did in places like Boston and Philadelphia and New York. And the Latino population here has got to do the same thing. They've got to become engaged in the civic activities and political activities in one of these communities so that they are adequately represented and can speak for themselves.
AG: Could you tell me a little bit more about the positive outcomes and maybe the lasting effects of that BIC program? Things that you still see today?
RB: I think the very seeds, the mustard seeds, to use a religious term, of that process of that small little seeds is that they will start taking that process of being integrated into these communities and letting it blossom to become again engaged. This is not something that's going to happen overnight, but because of this project, I think a leadership structure is now being established within the Hispanic community. I think that that the recognition of the entire community, the Anglo community, the community at large, are recognizing that the Hispanic population is not only here but important. I know that a number of elected officials realize how important that population is. Our business community understands that if that population wasn't here, this community would take a significant economic hit. So that feeling of mutual need and mutual support, I think starting with this product and has grown pretty significantly since, since the project started and continues to grow every day.
AG: Thank you. That's most of what I have prepared. But is there anything else that you'd like to add? Maybe about the church or the community or anything in your career that you've experienced?
RB: I have gotten a lot of satisfaction in not only working on this project but also working in this community, both as a public servant and also as a member of the clergy. It has added dimensions to my life, you know, I'm almost 70 years old that I didn't really expect to happen in my life. So, it's been a very satisfying, very gratifying. But it's also made me more aware of what has always attracted me to my own faith. And that's that Catholic social justice that probably got birthed to me in the very early part of my life when I looked around and saw so much injustice in a country that promises justice and equality. It gave me the opportunity to say I need to be a part of it. And here at the end of my career, later in my life, I'm having the ability to fulfill a lot of things that started out when, gosh, when I was a teenager. And it's been very important to me and very gratifying.
AG: Thank you very much.
RB: You’re welcome very much.
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Es: Resumen
Robert (Bob) Bridwell es un diácono de la iglesia católica St. Stephen en la ciudad de Sanford, NC. También trabajó muchos años como el director de planificación para el municipio de Sanford. En la entrevista, Diácono Bridwell describe los servicios que provee la iglesia para residentes que han migrado de Latinoamérica. Él comparte sobre su carrera larga de planificación urbana y activismo y habla sobre cómo los cambios demográficos en el condado de Lee han dado forma de nuevo las necesidades de los miembros de la comunida. Habla sobre los desafíos más grandes que afrontan las familias inmigrantes (mayoría hispanas o latinas) en las partes rurales de Carolina del Norte. El habla de su rol en la iniciativa Construyendo comunidades integradas, una colaboración con el municipio de Sanford y el “Latino Migration Project” en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill. También nos cuente de su trabajo en la iglesia para buscar a soluciones y recursos para estos problemas. La entrevista tomó lugar en la oficina de Diácono Bridwell en la iglesia católica de St. Stephen y duró aproximadamente 37 minutos. Fuera de su oficina, había construcción en la iglesia. Había ruidos de construcción durante la entrevista, pero no interfirieron en la habilidad de escuchar la entrevista. Alexandra es una estudiante posgrado en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill. Ella está trabajando en su maestría en la enseñanza con una especialidad en la educación primaria y la enseñanza de inglés como segundo idioma. Ella se graduó de la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill en mayo 2018 con un título en la Lingüística Hispana y otro título en la Economía. Durante su último semestre, ella fue entrenada en la historia oral por el Proyecto de Nuevas Raíces. Diácono Bridwell ha sido ordenado como diácono católico desde 2014, el mismo año en lo cual se jubiló después de 45 años como urbanista. Desde entonces, ha trabajado en la iglesia católica de St. Stephen. Durante su tiempo allí, ha servido en misas hispanohablantes a través de un intérprete y ha aprendido a proveer ciertos servicios a cerca de retos legales afrontados por inmigrantes.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Robert Bridwell, 19 junio 2018, R-0990, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Dublin Core
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Title
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R-0990 -- Bridwell, Robert.
Description
An account of the resource
This interview was conducted by interviewer Alexandra Graham with interviewee Deacon Robert (Bob) Bridwell. The main focus of the interview is Deacon Bridwell’s responsibilities at St. Stephen Catholic Church. Much of his work in the church surrounds immigration services. He tells us about the services St. Stephen’s provides as well as what projects he personally works on. He shares about his long career of city planning and activism and talks about how demographic changes in Lee County (the county where he resides) have reshaped the needs of community members and therefore what services he works with. He talks about the biggest challenges facing immigrant families (majority Hispanic/Latino) in rural North Carolina and how his church is working to provide solutions and resources for those problems. He also discusses his involvement in the Building Integrated Communities initiative, a collaboration with the City of Sanford, Lee County, and the Latino Migration Project at UNC Chapel Hill. The interview, which took place in Deacon Bridwell’s office at St. Stephen Catholic Church, lasted about 37 minutes. Outside of his office, construction was going on to build a new addition to the church. There were construction noises throughout the interview, but it does not interfere with the ability to hear what was said.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-19
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/28600">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
Format
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R0990_Audio.mp3
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/2d8c8a1cf240fbcf6f003c6e315b1430.mp3
d07d1169196a67d4d82e08c18b922c57
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/46155d8e5b75ae85bf34270d8d807523.pdf
082073362e9df8f8ca1e1ff2f738293a
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0988
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
2019-06-27
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Zaeem, Abu.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Educators
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Male
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Pakistan
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Greensboro -- Guilford County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
NA
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Marable, Hannah.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Abu Zaeem describes his position as the principal of Doris Henderson Newcomers School in Greensboro, North Carolina. He explains how the school serves immigrant and refugee students in grades three through twelve for one, two, or three semesters by helping them acclimate to English and the American school system before they are transitioned to their home public schools. He discusses services and strategies to help students who are dealing with trauma upon arriving to the United States. He shares several of the challenges of his work, including communicating with parents when there are language barriers and dropout rates among older students who want to work. He emphasized that while the Newcomers School is a great option for many families, some choose traditional schools because of location, age of other siblings, or other reasons. He shared the limitations of a small school for a growing population of students, and admitted that funding is consistently an issue. Finally, he emphasized that the work of the Newcomers School would be impossible without its teachers, who are invested in educating and advocating for students and their well-being every day.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Abu Zaeem, 27 June 2019, R-0988, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/28597
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Integration and segregation; Language and Communication; Community and social services and programs; Receiving communities; Education
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Hannah Marable: Hi. I’m Hannah Marable and I’m here with Mr. Abu Zaeem on June 27, 2019 at 10:36AM at Doris Henderson Newcomers School in Greensboro, North Carolina. I’m here with him to learn more about his role as the principal of the Newcomers School and understand how his school supports immigrant and refugee students. Mr. Zaeem, how are you doing?
Abu Zaeem: Doing well. How are you?
HM: Good. I’m good. Do I have your consent to record this interview?
AZ: You do.
HM: Okay. Will you tell us a little bit about how and why this school got started and how you got involved?
AZ: Sure. Sure. So, the school came about… The first year that it opened was back in 2007, 2008. A little over ten years ago. There was a need in Guilford County because there were so many ESL students that were coming in that were newcomer students. So, there was a need for us to open a newcomer’s school. You had students that were coming in that had varying abilities from all over the spectrum in terms of formal education. Some had lots of formal education, some didn’t have any formal education at all. So, it made it really challenging for schools to be able to take those students without a newcomer’s program and to be able to acclimate them to schools. Some of them had been in schools for the first time in their life. So, we felt like we needed to open something like a newcomer’s program here in Guildford County so that way we can bring students in for at least a year and get them back into the U.S. school system, get them acclimated to the language. You know, in terms of how the U.S. school system works. And then after a year, transition them on to their home schools which is where they currently live. We serve students from all over the district. So, they come to us. They’re bussed to us from all over the district. The way I’ve gotten involved, this is my third year here as a principal. I am a former ESL student. I was born and raised in Pakistan. My family migrated to the United States back in the early nineties. So, as they were looking for someone to lead the school, I guess they wanted someone to be able to relate to their families, relate to the experience of coming into the country. And I was placed here back in--. Two years ago. So, this will be my third year as the principal of Doris Henderson Newcomer’s School.
HM: Okay great. And who is Doris Henderson?
AZ: Doris Henderson is the previous principal. So, this was a--. It catered two buildings. This was a primary school and she was a longtime principal in this building off the primary school. And, you know, due to her service and her dedication to this profession, you know when they came up with the program, they named it after her. Doris Henderson. She is still very much active in our community. She comes to all of our school functions. She comes and walks the hallways and she is just another stakeholder for us. It’s great for us to have her around.
HM: Okay. Awesome. Okay. I would love to talk about some of the programs that you have here at your school. So, what are some of the best ways that you feel like schools and teachers can support newcomer students and what do those programs look like here?
AZ: Yeah. So, I think, you know, of course, we in terms of our support we try to make sure that--. A little bit about our school. We have students that are refugees and students who are immigrants. So that dynamic has changed a little. Back when it first started you had majority of the students were refugees and we had a few immigrants. Well, over time it’s been almost close to fifty fifty. And now you have more immigrants than you have refugees. When you think about students and even immigrants, you know, they are coming in for different reasons. They’re coming with a lot of trauma. You know, they’re coming from--. A lot of our students are coming from African countries. They’re coming from war-torn countries. A lot of them are coming in without their parents. Those types of things. So, one of the things when I first got here, we didn’t have you know, some of the arts that we were offering. When you have students who are coming in, who are going to struggle with the language, they’re going to struggle with the reading and the writing, you got to make sure that you got arts that you can offer to them. Things like music, things like actual art, dance programs. Those types of things. So that way that’s just another way for them to express themselves because unfortunately they’re not able to do so in the English language. So, that’s a way that we provide them support. We also have, because of the trauma and some of the baggage that they come to us with, we have partnered with the local university UNCG. And they provide psychological services for our students. So, we work with the staff to see if some of the signs that they may observe from the students. Or, you know, some of the social histories that students may be coming to us with and we out of our title one funds, have created a partnership with them and they provide a limited number of support, amount of support, in terms of families. Not just the students but also their families. And it is off campus. So, in terms of the [inaudible], you know you guys here in education, the social and emotional learning. So, that is a big piece. You know, unless they feel socially and emotionally comfortable and safe to be in this environment, you know, regardless of what you do with them academically, they’re not going to be able to learn. So that’s something that is really important. Academically, you know, we bring them in and we have tier classes. So, depending on their level of formal education in the past, we place them according to their level. So, we assist their reading levels. We place them in classes based on the formal education they’re coming to us with. We’ve had children that have come to us that have had no formal education at all. And we have a group within ESL group that we place them in that classroom which is more of a self-contained classroom. And they stay with that classroom and those students all throughout the day because the support of those students are going to need are going to be a little bit more than what others are going to need. In terms of supports in the community, we have a wonderful school social worker. She looks out into the community to make sure that, in terms of insurance, in terms of housing, some of those things, that a lot of our refugees and immigrants’ parents are going to need, they’re able to look for those communities and forced to provide help. For them, we do parent events twice a year and we invite folks like immigration attorneys, we invite folks from outside in the community come and talk to our parents because we realize the need to be able to equip our parents with the tools that they need to support our children. We can do everything with them but parents are the ones who are going to need to be empowered to continue to support our children. So, we do a lot with them. We also do a Saturday literacy program where we bring parents in and we do Saturday ESL classes for them. We’re also looking to start a next year, on Saturdays, a business entrepreneurial classroom. One of the things we’re finding is just because, you know, they don’t know the language, they’re coming to us with a lot of skills that they’ve learned in their countries which can very much be applicable here in this country. So, they just need to be able to pick up those entrepreneurial skills and know the system and how to become an entrepreneur you know, down the line. Those are just some of the supports that we provide.
HM: Yeah. That’s awesome. And I know that Guilford County has the Parents Success Academy.
AZ: Parent Academy.
HM: The Parent Academy. How does the Parent Academy work with your school?
AZ: Yeah. So, the Parent Academy holds a lot of the sessions out in the district. You know, one of the ones that they just held lately was on opioids. And for the parents to be aware of some of the signs and things that they may see out in the community or how they can make sure that children are, you know, are not exposed to those things. So, the things that they’re offered in the district, we just make the parents aware of them. And a lot of those are off campus so, central locations within the district. We just make the parents aware of those sessions to make sure that they attend them. But that becomes an obstacle for our parents because all the events that we do here are, we have interpreters. So, you have a Spanish interpreter, you have an Arabic interpreter, French, Swahili, and Vietnamese interpreters. So, when they come to our events, you have someone there that is translating in their language. Unfortunately, when you have district events that are on such a large scale, and you have so many different languages that are spoken they don’t always have an interpreter for them. So, one of the things that we find is, our events here are more attended than the ones that are offered by the district because there isn’t someone there to be able to offer them their translation service.
HM: I see. So, you’ve talked about this a little bit but I want to talk about it a little more.
AZ: Sure.
HM: So, I’m interested in how you create safe spaces for your students. How you make your students feel safe here at the school. So, maybe that safety from threat of deportation or a place where students can feel safe to speak their native language and be themselves. So, how do you do that here at your school?
AZ: Sure. Sure. So, I think the first thing I’ll start with the deportation and the ICE. That is a really hot topic. We have, unfortunately I know all of us have heard about the different tactics that they’ve used and you know, them being in neighborhoods and near schools. So, a lot of our parents they think that because children are going to schools as they’re leaving schools, you know, the officials are going to be waiting somewhere they know children are going to be there and they’re going to you know, talk with the students or whatnot. So, the first thing is we actually this year communicated multiple times to parents about this being a safe place. You know, when they’re here, no one is asking them about their immigration status. We’re not, we have no concern of that at all. We are concerned for them and we understand you know, that they are worried about things like that but we try to assure them that this is a safe place from the time that they get on the bus at the bus stop, to arriving to school, being in school, to arriving back at home. That it’s a safe place we can assure them that. And the district has assured us that we will assure the parents that nothing is going to impact them at all. Other than that, what happens out in the community unfortunately the school doesn’t have control over that. But, we try, you know, communicate with them that this is a safe zone. As far as the, I think the second question was, what was-- ?
HM: How do they feel safe to be themselves, to speak their language--.
AZ: Right. Right. One of the things that we have as new staff is coming in, and we do staff development every year. You have to find that balance in a school like ours and anywhere else when students leave. You have to find that balance between students being able to speak their language and students being asked to speak English. Of course, we want them to speak English because that is an area of literacy, the speaking piece that we want to make sure, for the language acquisition piece of it, we want to make sure that they are continuing to practice the written and the spoken English. But at the same time, we want to honor their heritages. We want to honor their backgrounds and what they’re bringing to us. Instead of looking at it as a negative thing, we try to use it as something positive. So, you know, let’s say the two of you guys and both of you guys speak French. You had previous English instructions you may not have. So, one of the things that we try to use that to our advantage is we may pair students together with common languages and we say, well you understand English and you can explain this to someone who doesn’t understand English. So, tap into that as something positive instead of you don’t know English as that being a negative thing. But then there are times we say okay we do need you to respond back to us in English. So, to be able to provide them with that support, we do one of the things that we started working on a couple of years back, we do language sentence trainings. So, we try to provide them with language support that they need in order to be able to respond to the questions that teachers are asking. So, we provide them these sentence frames which are nothing more than just fill in the blanks. You’re giving them some of the language and they’re filling the blanks that way--. And one of the things that we see common all the time is ESL children they will give you one- or two-word answers. Well, so you take those one or two words and plug it into the language frame and now you’ve given us a full complete sentence and then that way children feel, you know, pretty strong about being able to, being able to take part in the conversation discussion in classrooms which helps them continue to motivate them to continue to learn the English. So, you have to be able to find that balance between using their language and at the same time using English. So, we try to make sure to tell the teachers that they are not to tell the students you cannot use your language. There are times that it is okay to use it because you want to make sure they comprehend what they’re reading and we’ll know when you read something you can understand it but being able to say it back in your own words, that’s tough especially when you’re learning the language of English. So, to check their comprehension even if they can show you in their language that they can understand, at the end of the day they comprehend it. Reading and understanding and the speaking of the English language is going to come over time. And they’re only here in their first year, sowe know that sometimes that is not going to happen while they’re here. So, just trying to be understanding of that process of language acquisition is extremely important.
HM: Okay. And you’d mention that you have students who have experienced trauma, so let’s say a student comes in and is feeling the effects of this trauma.
AZ: Sure.
HM: How do you handle that situation?
AZ: Yeah, so that’s a great question. We have an enrollment specialist so the wonderful thing about our program is although we haven’t had a lot of turnover, she’s been here from day one. So, she has seen every type of student that is coming in with a lot of different trauma. So, one of the things that we do is during the enrollment time, when they first come in, whether with a resettlement group or whether they come with a community advocate or whoever, we do an interview with them. So, as they’re coming in and she knows the types of questions to ask to be able to probe some of the information from them. So, you know, someone’s coming in, you know, okay, well, who are you? You know, if you’re not the mom or the dad, okay well what kind of affidavits and things that you can provide and then if you’re traveling without a parent, then of course that’s going to have some sort of trauma attached to it. What happened to them? So, we do an interview with them to be able to get some basic information and just based on that information, we get that information over to our school social worker. And you know, she goes out and does social history and meets with the parents or meets with the guardians or whoever came to enroll them to collect more information. And then our school social worker is our liaison between the school and UNCG psychological service to see, maybe, there is something that we may be able to, you know, do for them. Definitely not something right away. We want to get the child here. We want to work with them a little bit.
HM: Yeah.
AZ: Just to see all those sometimes, as adults we feel like they’re coming, they’re maybe coming with trauma. Sometimes they may surprise us and they may feel like, hey, we don’t need the services. We are okay with that. And, you know, you don’t want to jump into the services too quickly because you don’t want to bring back some memories that they already left behind. So, our thing is wait to get them in and you work with them for a couple of weeks, and then if you see signs from the child, you see signs from the adults of the family, and then you see the social interview that we’ve done with them, put everything together and then you do the recommendation for the psychological services.
HM: Okay. Great. And, I know that students are allowed to stay here for up to a year. So, how or who decides or how do you decide when a student is ready to leave? Do most of your students stay the entire year? Do they stay less than a year? What do you see?
AZ: Sure. That’s a great question. So, according to the office of civil rights, we don’t, it’s not just us that say we’re just going to keep them only for a year. According to the office of civil rights, we are segregating the students according to their demographics. These are refugees and immigrants. So, we have to be very careful with that. So, from their directive, they say, you can keep them for a year and when I first got here, I wanted to research this because I wanted to make sure I understood it. And in their [inaudible] they actually stated there that they can stay for a year unless the school feels like a child can benefit from being here for longer than a year. So, for us a year is two semesters. So, sometimes you have students who stay for longer than a semester. Sometimes you have say, some that stay less than a semester. And I’ll give you examples of who stays longer and who stays less. So, let’s say you have a child that comes in let’s say in January. So, from January to May or to June is one semester. And the next year from August to December or January is another semester. Well, let’s say a child comes in and the child you know, everything in the United States educational system is done by age. So, until you get to high school then everything is done by credits, right? So, let’s say you’re coming in and you are eight or nine years of age and you are of the age to be in third/fourth grade. You’ve had no formal education at all. So, we’re starting from--. We have had to do that. We’re starting from scratch. This is how you hold a pencil. This is what letter ‘A’ looks like. This is what letter ‘B’ looks like. For some of those students who are coming with no formal education or what we call, an interruptive formal education, used to be SIFE students who interrupt formal education, now it’s SLIFE who are just students with limited interruptive formal education and interruption is designed depending on which, you know, what do you pick up and read about it. It’s anywhere from two to three years of a gap that it talks about. So, for students coming to us that we consider SIFE, those are the students that sometimes we do exercise their option of keeping them for longer than a year. What we see from some of the students as well is you keep them for three semesters longer. Sometimes what we recognize or what we pinpoint is, sometimes, they go through our instructional, our IST, or sometimes they go through our EC program because some of those students may also have some sort of a learning disability. You put interventions in place through IST team and then you look to see if those interventions work to rule out any some sort of a disability that they may be, you know, they may be experiencing that may really prevent them from learning the content. You have to be careful with that because they’re in their first year in the United States so it is going to be difficult for some to show mastery of growth right away. So, sometimes, we give them six months to a year just to have enough exposure to the English language. So, sometimes those are the kids that we keep them for three semesters because the process really takes a year and a half for them to have some time under their belt to show some understanding of something that they’re learning for us to be able to assess. Whether they’ve learned their materials or if they haven’t with interventions. Additional interventions have them learn them and if they if they haven’t, then maybe for them exceptional students’ services todetermine to do additional testing to see if there is some sort of a disability. So, those are the students that we may end up keeping them for longer than a year. On the opposite, we may have some students that we may keep them for less than a year. For less than two semesters. So, one of the trends that has changed over the last couple of years is, a lot of our--. More of our students are coming from our Spanish speaking countries where you have formal education. You know, you have something like the hurricane in Puerto Rico and you see an influx of families that are settling here. Puerto Rico has a real established educational system and a lot of your students are coming to you with, you know, being exposed to the English language. So, sometimes, they, parents bring their children here and they enroll them here for one semester just to get an idea of what the, U.S. system, educational system is like. You know, a lot of them are older so they may be looking to see how many credits do you need to graduate. Those types of things. But then after a semester, they may be ready to go on to their, you know, home schools and be ready to take additional classes. You also have, we don’t offer the full spectrum of courses because you know, just the number of students and the faculty that we have. So, I’ll give you an example. You require four Englishes for a student to graduate from our school. We only offer English one and English two because very rarely do we get students who have courses that are equivalent to an English two or English one here in the United States. When the other student who’s maxed those out and they neede an English three, they can’t take that here so we look at an early transition for them to go to another school where they can take those classes. So, it just depends. A lot of your older students depends on their education. Their previous education. The number of credits they’re coming to us with and what we are able to offer them. Sometimes, if we’re not able to offer them with any more credits, there’s no need for them to stay here because then that’s just wasting their time because they could be taking additional credits at their home schools. So sometimes we’re going to transition them early.
HM: Okay. And do students have a say in when they are ready to leave? Or, is that a decision that--.
AZ: Well, normally it is a decision that we make. If they’ve been here for a year and unless they are part of our IST or going through the EC process, you know, after a year, then probably eighty-five to ninety percent of our students will leave after a year. Sometimes, we do get the input of the teachers. Sometimes we’re on the fence because I recognize that I’m in an office. I’m not teaching them every day. And teachers are the ones who hold the expertise in teaching the children every day. So, sometimes we do have teachers that come to say, hey I think this kid really can benefit from being here another semester. Then we ask them, let’s take a look at their data. Because, we have to be mindful because these are opportunities that we are providing for them and we have to have equitable practices to be able to provide these opportunities for children because at the end of the day, if we offer this opportunity just about all of our parents will want our children to be here for more than a year. So, when we are making the decision of sending someone after a year versus keeping them here for an extra semester, you have to be able to justify. So, we definitely go back to the teachers and ask them for the data to do a comparison between someone that we are transitioning early or someone we are transitioning after a year and this child and if the data shows that this child hasn’t learned at the same pace that we expect them to then we can bring them back. So, they do have some say. And then sometimes parents. We also transition in the middle of the year. And that’s a tough transition for elementary and middle school students. Transitions. So, we just did a transition in June and students will start at their new schools in August. That is a natural transition because everyone is starting out at a new school. You may have people who have moved. So, when they start at a new school in August, you know, it is okay because everyone’s going to make new friends. People are going to be in different classes. So, it is okay. But the transition that we do in January, that is a tougher transition for elementary and middle because as someone who struggles with English in a new country, and now, I am in a new school in January where everyone has made friends. Now I am, you know, a stranger in the classroom and it’s going to be hard for me to make friends. Just for that sometimes, students will struggle with their social and emotional ways. We consider maybe keeping them back for another semester and transitioning them in August when it’s a little more natural or time for them to start a new school.
HM: Great. And I know that in the PowerPoint you gave us, there are some obstacles to educating these students listed that I’m excited to look over. But would you talk about some of the challenges about the work that you do here concerning these students?
AZ: Yeah. Absolutely. I think language is always the first one. I mean, I think even when they’re here, parents and teachers communicating with the parents, you have to have an interpreter there all the time talking with the students. Sometimes they understand, they don’t. And rightfully so because they’re just learning the language. Parental involvement is something that we also struggle with because as you may imagine, you know settling into a new country and if it’s not under favorable conditions, parents are working. They’re busy. You know working different times of the day and then getting them here for parent conferences or for parent events. Sometimes that is challenging. Transportation is also challenging because if you guys know a little bit about Guilford County, from one side of Guilford County to the other is quite a few miles. So, someone could be living, you know, close to Burlington which is still Guilford County. That is thirty, forty minutes from here. So, transportation and then gas prices. Those types of things. So parental involvement really becomes an issue for us. Another issue we tend to see that in high school is a lot of our students whether they’re here with their families or whether they’re here alone without parents, the financial situation. So, there’s a financial burden among the families that are here. If they’re here living with the friends of the family they have to be able to provide financial support with whoever they’re living with. So, one of the things that we see with our students, especially with our high school students, they tend to have more or higher dropout rates because they want to drop out and they want to go and work. Especially that becomes even higher when you have students who are sixteen, seventeen years of age who are coming with an interrupted education and now you’re seventeen years of age you place them in ninth grade and they need four more years of schooling to graduate so then you have those two options. Four years of school and, yeah, I can work but I can’t work full time. I’m seventeen years of age and I’m an able body and I can go out and work and provide financial support for whoever I’m living with. So, from time to time, we do have to compete with that and it’s hard to compete with that when you’re having to compete with financial freedom and being able to support, you know, living here, paying the rent, car insurance. Those types of things. Versus staying in school. So that becomes a really, you know, a big challenge for us. Sometimes you work out with employers out in a community to help employ our students after school hours. You know, we have a few students that we employed here nearby that the school bus actually takes them to their, to the McDonalds that they work. So just looking at different obstacles that they’re faced with. Trying to come over with different ways for them to overcome those obstacles. You know, of course, insurance. You know, immunization. All students have to have immunization so, you know, if you’re coming in as a refugee, refugee resettlement groups, they will provide you with that service for three months. After three months, you know, you’ve got to find your own sources of insurance, sources of income. Those types of things. So, children having to go out and get immunizations and go see doctors and those types of things, they may not have the insurance. So, our social worker really works you know, with the community, with the health department and different clinics to be able to provide those supports for our parents. That’s the clinic and those are the days and the hours that you can go to see them. So, those are just some of the few of the barriers, the challenges we face.
HM: Okay, yeah. So, let’s say a student arrives in Guilford County, I want to understand the path from arriving here and arriving at your school. So, are you involved with doing outreach? How do students hear about Newcomers and come here?
AZ: Sure. That’s great. I think that all of Guilford County schools are aware of the Newcomers program. So, they know that, and we are third--. On paper we’re third through twelfth but we don’t have any twelfth graders because we like for them to graduate from their home schools. So, we really have third to eleventh graders here. So, our schools do a really good job when you have a new family coming in as they are intaking or enrolling them in, you know, I think right away they sense there’s some sort of a language barrier and this is the first time that they’ve been in the United States. They’ll pick up the phone and they’ll reach out to us. They’ll say, I’ve got a family from Venezuela and a family from Pakistan. They just got here. They’re in third grade. K through two they have to go to their own schools. Anyone that’s third grader or higher they have the option of coming to Newcomers. We are a school of choice. So,when parents come to us, we tell them about all of the things and all of the services that we offer to them. But, we are a school of choice. It is not mandated that parents come to Newcomers or their children enroll at Newcomers. We just give them the information about the services that we will provide for them and how long they’ll be here and those types of things. And at the end of the day it’s the decision of the parents for them to decide whether they want to enroll their children here in Newcomers or enroll them in their home schools. Sometimes, some of the factors that go into that decision making is we are centrally located in the district in Guilford County. So, we do have a shuttle system. But Guilford County school transportation and sometimes, some of our earliest students will be picked up around six, six fifteen in the morning to go to a hub to get on another bus to get here. Sometimes parents say, no, I live right across from the elementary school. My children can go. That is literally walking distance. So, walking distance versus an hour and a half on the bus, I want to keep my child here and I don’t want to go to Newcomers. You also have sometimes multiple siblings. Say you have a kid, two child that is not eligible to come to Newcomers so sometimes the parents or the guardians they don’t want to split the families up. So, they say, you know what, I have a first grader who’s going to go to this school. I don’t want to send my fourth grader to Newcomers. I want to keep them together. So, sometimes they don’t come to Newcomers and send them to their own schools.
HM: Okay.
AZ: Yeah.
HM: Okay. So, I know that schools often play really important roles in communities, in terms of disseminating information and being a safe place for students, so what role does Newcomers play in the community networks and support for the families in this area?
AZ: Sure. So, our PTA is actually a local church. So, we ,you know, we look at the demographics of our students. We have, you know, we have students from all over the world. So, we reach out to our community because one of the things that we realize is we can wrap around our students here at school but until the whole community wraps around them, it really doesn’t work because we protect them. We do all of those things for our students. But, when they go out, you know, they’re faced with different obstacles. So, we reach out to our religious organizations in the area. We reach out to our synagogues. We reach out to our mosques. We reach out to our churches. We reach out to those--. We reach out to our Buddhist temples that are here in Greensboro. We make sure that we bring them in. We even contact them when parents are having issues with some of those things because we know that those clerics or ministers or preachers are looked at as leaders in their community. To be able to bring them in and mentor some of our students. You know, we look at, you know, things out in the community in terms of insurance. You know, in terms of food stamps. You know, different supports that if we’re not able to provide for them help our parents, you know, set them up with those supports to be able to help them so we can support ourchildren. We try to bring the community in, you know. We bring attorneys in. We bring in folks. We have landlords that work with our refugee students and our parents because sometimes they may not have the documentation to be able to do a lease. So, we have some landlords that work with our students. We have that information. So, we are doing it in an enrollment. We’re able to see what the needs are of the parents and unless they’re coming with a resettlement group we can help them with some of the supports that are out in the community. So, really try to wrap the whole community around our students because it really does take a village to do the work.
HM: Yeah. That’s great. And, what hopes do you have for the future of your school? How do you hope to continue to improve what you’re doing at Newcomers?
AZ: Yeah. So, I hope to continue to exist. You know, unfortunately, funding is always the issue in education. But we have a lot of support from our superintendents, school board members. You know, teachers come in and been around for eleven, twelve years now. So, we want to continue to grow. Our numbers continue to grow every year and you know, we have a small building so we would like to see if some point, if the funding is there, to continue to expand because sometimes that decision, you know, additional enrollment becomes an issue of size. And, an issue of size of the building. You know, we have small classes, so you can only fit so many children that’s going to have a conducive learning environment. So, in a small classroom that is built for twenty students, you have thirty students just because of the size of the classroom. That’s something that’s going to be conducive in a learning environment in the classroom. So, we’re hoping to continue to grow. We’re hoping to continue to create that awareness for a population of students. We have former students who are doctors, who are educators, who are engineers, who are lawyers. You know, our children go on to do wonderful things. And just continuing to work against that stereotype that, you know, our children are limited to the opportunities that they have because the sky is the limit for them. The only difference is, and I find myself using myself as an example all the time. Sometimes, children are out working with a twelve year gap. I was twelve years of age when I came to this country. You are twelve years behind compared to your peers. That just means you have to work twice or twelve times as hard to catch up to your peers so you can compete in this marketplace for jobs and different opportunities for yourself. We have to be able to, you know, look at our children and provide them opportunities to speed up that process so they can have access to the opportunities that non-ESL peers have out in this area. So, just hopefully, you know, continue to do that.
HM: That’s great. Yeah. So, I know I mentioned some about the research that I’m doing and how I’m making recommendations to New Hanover County Schools in August. So, as someone with a lot of knowledge about this kind of thing, what do you feel like is at the core of success for immigrant and refugee students? If there are some recommendations that you feel I--. Something I need to get across to the board to best support these students? Is there something that comes to mind?
AZ: I’ll tell you. I would never have been able to do this without the folks, you know prior to me, would have never been able to do the work that we’re able to do without the folks who are in the [inaudible] and that’s the teachers. Anyone that is trying to start something like this, you got to have the right people to do the job every day. So, we have that. That has evolved. So, I think you know, you’re definitely have to look at people, you know, like yourself who are coming from ESL backgrounds, who have the passion to educate children. I think one of the things that we got to make sure is that we’re not here to save children. You know? We’re here to educate children. Sometimes you see people who want to work with our population of students because it is a feel-good kind of a job. And that’s great. We want people to feel good about what they do. But at the end of the day, we have to educate our children because education is going to provide opportunities for them in the future. So, I think that is the key there is to make sure that you design the programs sometimes, it can start out small scale. One campus of a school. But you got to have the right people who are leading it. You have to have the folks who are going to be passionate about doing the work and that’s work that there’s no boundary. You know, we have parents that reach out to me at twelve thirty or one o’clock in the morning that need help with something. You have to be able to. So, if someone that is eight to four persons, after four o’clock they don’t want to deal with this, unfortunately that doesn’t work. And folks prior to me who opened this program were and still are those kinds of people. Your heart has to be with the students and you have to be able to create those opportunities and you have to be able to fight the stereotypes that you’re going to be faced with all the time to make sure you continue to fight and continue to advocate for the students. Yeah. But people, your personnel is going to be the key. If you have the right people the program will run itself. And I’ve been very fortunate to have that.
HM: That’s great. So, I know this is school is pretty unique to North Carolina. Are there programs like this around the country?
AZ: There are. We are, we had someone that came from the department of education last year. And they actually verified that we are the only one of a kind program in the United States that has elementary, middle, and high in the same building.
HM: Oh, wow.
AZ: There are lots of other programs. I think when we were trying to open this program back in 2007 there were models out in New York and out in California who had been doing this a lot longer than we have. I actually had the pleasure of visiting a school down in Houston, which has a lot more of an immigrant population than we do. And they have separate elementary, they have separate middle and separate high schools. Of course, enrollment is much larger than ours. Their high school had almost 2,000 students there.
HM: Wow.
AZ: But they also, one of the neat things that they did was they had a double shift high school. The hours of the school were 9AM to 12AM. So, if you had students that wanted to work in the evening they could attend during the day. If you had someone that wanted to work during the day, they could attend in the evening. So, there are a lot of different programs that are out there and folks that recognize there has to be something different for our ESL students because coming here, placing them in mainstream schools, that just doesn’t work. Unfortunately, that does not work. Children are already behind and they’ll feel even more behind. And when you have some of the things that we listed here about bullying, and them not knowing the language, children get picked on. The social and emotional piece. They continue to fall further and further behind that eventually they drop out. So, yes. I mean there are a lot of other schools that are in the area. Not sure of North Carolina but there are a lot of states that have these models already in place and they’re doing a great job.
HM: That’s great.
AZ: Yeah.
HM: Well, that’s all I have for you. Thank you so much for having us today.
AZ: Absolutely, my pleasure. And you guys have the information--. [END OF INTERVIEW]
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Educadores
Es: Género de entrevistado
Hombre
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Temas
Integración y segregación; Lenguaje y Comunicación; Programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios; Comunidades receptoras; Educación
Es: Transcripción
Hannah Marable: Hi. I’m Hannah Marable and I’m here with Mr. Abu Zaeem on June 27, 2019 at 10:36AM at Doris Henderson Newcomers School in Greensboro, North Carolina. I’m here with him to learn more about his role as the principal of the Newcomers School and understand how his school supports immigrant and refugee students. Mr. Zaeem, how are you doing?
Abu Zaeem: Doing well. How are you?
HM: Good. I’m good. Do I have your consent to record this interview?
AZ: You do.
HM: Okay. Will you tell us a little bit about how and why this school got started and how you got involved?
AZ: Sure. Sure. So, the school came about… The first year that it opened was back in 2007, 2008. A little over ten years ago. There was a need in Guilford County because there were so many ESL students that were coming in that were newcomer students. So, there was a need for us to open a newcomer’s school. You had students that were coming in that had varying abilities from all over the spectrum in terms of formal education. Some had lots of formal education, some didn’t have any formal education at all. So, it made it really challenging for schools to be able to take those students without a newcomer’s program and to be able to acclimate them to schools. Some of them had been in schools for the first time in their life. So, we felt like we needed to open something like a newcomer’s program here in Guildford County so that way we can bring students in for at least a year and get them back into the U.S. school system, get them acclimated to the language. You know, in terms of how the U.S. school system works. And then after a year, transition them on to their home schools which is where they currently live. We serve students from all over the district. So, they come to us. They’re bussed to us from all over the district. The way I’ve gotten involved, this is my third year here as a principal. I am a former ESL student. I was born and raised in Pakistan. My family migrated to the United States back in the early nineties. So, as they were looking for someone to lead the school, I guess they wanted someone to be able to relate to their families, relate to the experience of coming into the country. And I was placed here back in--. Two years ago. So, this will be my third year as the principal of Doris Henderson Newcomer’s School.
HM: Okay great. And who is Doris Henderson?
AZ: Doris Henderson is the previous principal. So, this was a--. It catered two buildings. This was a primary school and she was a longtime principal in this building off the primary school. And, you know, due to her service and her dedication to this profession, you know when they came up with the program, they named it after her. Doris Henderson. She is still very much active in our community. She comes to all of our school functions. She comes and walks the hallways and she is just another stakeholder for us. It’s great for us to have her around.
HM: Okay. Awesome. Okay. I would love to talk about some of the programs that you have here at your school. So, what are some of the best ways that you feel like schools and teachers can support newcomer students and what do those programs look like here?
AZ: Yeah. So, I think, you know, of course, we in terms of our support we try to make sure that--. A little bit about our school. We have students that are refugees and students who are immigrants. So that dynamic has changed a little. Back when it first started you had majority of the students were refugees and we had a few immigrants. Well, over time it’s been almost close to fifty fifty. And now you have more immigrants than you have refugees. When you think about students and even immigrants, you know, they are coming in for different reasons. They’re coming with a lot of trauma. You know, they’re coming from--. A lot of our students are coming from African countries. They’re coming from war-torn countries. A lot of them are coming in without their parents. Those types of things. So, one of the things when I first got here, we didn’t have you know, some of the arts that we were offering. When you have students who are coming in, who are going to struggle with the language, they’re going to struggle with the reading and the writing, you got to make sure that you got arts that you can offer to them. Things like music, things like actual art, dance programs. Those types of things. So that way that’s just another way for them to express themselves because unfortunately they’re not able to do so in the English language. So, that’s a way that we provide them support. We also have, because of the trauma and some of the baggage that they come to us with, we have partnered with the local university UNCG. And they provide psychological services for our students. So, we work with the staff to see if some of the signs that they may observe from the students. Or, you know, some of the social histories that students may be coming to us with and we out of our title one funds, have created a partnership with them and they provide a limited number of support, amount of support, in terms of families. Not just the students but also their families. And it is off campus. So, in terms of the [inaudible], you know you guys here in education, the social and emotional learning. So, that is a big piece. You know, unless they feel socially and emotionally comfortable and safe to be in this environment, you know, regardless of what you do with them academically, they’re not going to be able to learn. So that’s something that is really important. Academically, you know, we bring them in and we have tier classes. So, depending on their level of formal education in the past, we place them according to their level. So, we assist their reading levels. We place them in classes based on the formal education they’re coming to us with. We’ve had children that have come to us that have had no formal education at all. And we have a group within ESL group that we place them in that classroom which is more of a self-contained classroom. And they stay with that classroom and those students all throughout the day because the support of those students are going to need are going to be a little bit more than what others are going to need. In terms of supports in the community, we have a wonderful school social worker. She looks out into the community to make sure that, in terms of insurance, in terms of housing, some of those things, that a lot of our refugees and immigrants’ parents are going to need, they’re able to look for those communities and forced to provide help. For them, we do parent events twice a year and we invite folks like immigration attorneys, we invite folks from outside in the community come and talk to our parents because we realize the need to be able to equip our parents with the tools that they need to support our children. We can do everything with them but parents are the ones who are going to need to be empowered to continue to support our children. So, we do a lot with them. We also do a Saturday literacy program where we bring parents in and we do Saturday ESL classes for them. We’re also looking to start a next year, on Saturdays, a business entrepreneurial classroom. One of the things we’re finding is just because, you know, they don’t know the language, they’re coming to us with a lot of skills that they’ve learned in their countries which can very much be applicable here in this country. So, they just need to be able to pick up those entrepreneurial skills and know the system and how to become an entrepreneur you know, down the line. Those are just some of the supports that we provide.
HM: Yeah. That’s awesome. And I know that Guilford County has the Parents Success Academy.
AZ: Parent Academy.
HM: The Parent Academy. How does the Parent Academy work with your school?
AZ: Yeah. So, the Parent Academy holds a lot of the sessions out in the district. You know, one of the ones that they just held lately was on opioids. And for the parents to be aware of some of the signs and things that they may see out in the community or how they can make sure that children are, you know, are not exposed to those things. So, the things that they’re offered in the district, we just make the parents aware of them. And a lot of those are off campus so, central locations within the district. We just make the parents aware of those sessions to make sure that they attend them. But that becomes an obstacle for our parents because all the events that we do here are, we have interpreters. So, you have a Spanish interpreter, you have an Arabic interpreter, French, Swahili, and Vietnamese interpreters. So, when they come to our events, you have someone there that is translating in their language. Unfortunately, when you have district events that are on such a large scale, and you have so many different languages that are spoken they don’t always have an interpreter for them. So, one of the things that we find is, our events here are more attended than the ones that are offered by the district because there isn’t someone there to be able to offer them their translation service.
HM: I see. So, you’ve talked about this a little bit but I want to talk about it a little more.
AZ: Sure.
HM: So, I’m interested in how you create safe spaces for your students. How you make your students feel safe here at the school. So, maybe that safety from threat of deportation or a place where students can feel safe to speak their native language and be themselves. So, how do you do that here at your school?
AZ: Sure. Sure. So, I think the first thing I’ll start with the deportation and the ICE. That is a really hot topic. We have, unfortunately I know all of us have heard about the different tactics that they’ve used and you know, them being in neighborhoods and near schools. So, a lot of our parents they think that because children are going to schools as they’re leaving schools, you know, the officials are going to be waiting somewhere they know children are going to be there and they’re going to you know, talk with the students or whatnot. So, the first thing is we actually this year communicated multiple times to parents about this being a safe place. You know, when they’re here, no one is asking them about their immigration status. We’re not, we have no concern of that at all. We are concerned for them and we understand you know, that they are worried about things like that but we try to assure them that this is a safe place from the time that they get on the bus at the bus stop, to arriving to school, being in school, to arriving back at home. That it’s a safe place we can assure them that. And the district has assured us that we will assure the parents that nothing is going to impact them at all. Other than that, what happens out in the community unfortunately the school doesn’t have control over that. But, we try, you know, communicate with them that this is a safe zone. As far as the, I think the second question was, what was-- ?
HM: How do they feel safe to be themselves, to speak their language--.
AZ: Right. Right. One of the things that we have as new staff is coming in, and we do staff development every year. You have to find that balance in a school like ours and anywhere else when students leave. You have to find that balance between students being able to speak their language and students being asked to speak English. Of course, we want them to speak English because that is an area of literacy, the speaking piece that we want to make sure, for the language acquisition piece of it, we want to make sure that they are continuing to practice the written and the spoken English. But at the same time, we want to honor their heritages. We want to honor their backgrounds and what they’re bringing to us. Instead of looking at it as a negative thing, we try to use it as something positive. So, you know, let’s say the two of you guys and both of you guys speak French. You had previous English instructions you may not have. So, one of the things that we try to use that to our advantage is we may pair students together with common languages and we say, well you understand English and you can explain this to someone who doesn’t understand English. So, tap into that as something positive instead of you don’t know English as that being a negative thing. But then there are times we say okay we do need you to respond back to us in English. So, to be able to provide them with that support, we do one of the things that we started working on a couple of years back, we do language sentence trainings. So, we try to provide them with language support that they need in order to be able to respond to the questions that teachers are asking. So, we provide them these sentence frames which are nothing more than just fill in the blanks. You’re giving them some of the language and they’re filling the blanks that way--. And one of the things that we see common all the time is ESL children they will give you one- or two-word answers. Well, so you take those one or two words and plug it into the language frame and now you’ve given us a full complete sentence and then that way children feel, you know, pretty strong about being able to, being able to take part in the conversation discussion in classrooms which helps them continue to motivate them to continue to learn the English. So, you have to be able to find that balance between using their language and at the same time using English. So, we try to make sure to tell the teachers that they are not to tell the students you cannot use your language. There are times that it is okay to use it because you want to make sure they comprehend what they’re reading and we’ll know when you read something you can understand it but being able to say it back in your own words, that’s tough especially when you’re learning the language of English. So, to check their comprehension even if they can show you in their language that they can understand, at the end of the day they comprehend it. Reading and understanding and the speaking of the English language is going to come over time. And they’re only here in their first year, sowe know that sometimes that is not going to happen while they’re here. So, just trying to be understanding of that process of language acquisition is extremely important.
HM: Okay. And you’d mention that you have students who have experienced trauma, so let’s say a student comes in and is feeling the effects of this trauma.
AZ: Sure.
HM: How do you handle that situation?
AZ: Yeah, so that’s a great question. We have an enrollment specialist so the wonderful thing about our program is although we haven’t had a lot of turnover, she’s been here from day one. So, she has seen every type of student that is coming in with a lot of different trauma. So, one of the things that we do is during the enrollment time, when they first come in, whether with a resettlement group or whether they come with a community advocate or whoever, we do an interview with them. So, as they’re coming in and she knows the types of questions to ask to be able to probe some of the information from them. So, you know, someone’s coming in, you know, okay, well, who are you? You know, if you’re not the mom or the dad, okay well what kind of affidavits and things that you can provide and then if you’re traveling without a parent, then of course that’s going to have some sort of trauma attached to it. What happened to them? So, we do an interview with them to be able to get some basic information and just based on that information, we get that information over to our school social worker. And you know, she goes out and does social history and meets with the parents or meets with the guardians or whoever came to enroll them to collect more information. And then our school social worker is our liaison between the school and UNCG psychological service to see, maybe, there is something that we may be able to, you know, do for them. Definitely not something right away. We want to get the child here. We want to work with them a little bit.
HM: Yeah.
AZ: Just to see all those sometimes, as adults we feel like they’re coming, they’re maybe coming with trauma. Sometimes they may surprise us and they may feel like, hey, we don’t need the services. We are okay with that. And, you know, you don’t want to jump into the services too quickly because you don’t want to bring back some memories that they already left behind. So, our thing is wait to get them in and you work with them for a couple of weeks, and then if you see signs from the child, you see signs from the adults of the family, and then you see the social interview that we’ve done with them, put everything together and then you do the recommendation for the psychological services.
HM: Okay. Great. And, I know that students are allowed to stay here for up to a year. So, how or who decides or how do you decide when a student is ready to leave? Do most of your students stay the entire year? Do they stay less than a year? What do you see?
AZ: Sure. That’s a great question. So, according to the office of civil rights, we don’t, it’s not just us that say we’re just going to keep them only for a year. According to the office of civil rights, we are segregating the students according to their demographics. These are refugees and immigrants. So, we have to be very careful with that. So, from their directive, they say, you can keep them for a year and when I first got here, I wanted to research this because I wanted to make sure I understood it. And in their [inaudible] they actually stated there that they can stay for a year unless the school feels like a child can benefit from being here for longer than a year. So, for us a year is two semesters. So, sometimes you have students who stay for longer than a semester. Sometimes you have say, some that stay less than a semester. And I’ll give you examples of who stays longer and who stays less. So, let’s say you have a child that comes in let’s say in January. So, from January to May or to June is one semester. And the next year from August to December or January is another semester. Well, let’s say a child comes in and the child you know, everything in the United States educational system is done by age. So, until you get to high school then everything is done by credits, right? So, let’s say you’re coming in and you are eight or nine years of age and you are of the age to be in third/fourth grade. You’ve had no formal education at all. So, we’re starting from--. We have had to do that. We’re starting from scratch. This is how you hold a pencil. This is what letter ‘A’ looks like. This is what letter ‘B’ looks like. For some of those students who are coming with no formal education or what we call, an interruptive formal education, used to be SIFE students who interrupt formal education, now it’s SLIFE who are just students with limited interruptive formal education and interruption is designed depending on which, you know, what do you pick up and read about it. It’s anywhere from two to three years of a gap that it talks about. So, for students coming to us that we consider SIFE, those are the students that sometimes we do exercise their option of keeping them for longer than a year. What we see from some of the students as well is you keep them for three semesters longer. Sometimes what we recognize or what we pinpoint is, sometimes, they go through our instructional, our IST, or sometimes they go through our EC program because some of those students may also have some sort of a learning disability. You put interventions in place through IST team and then you look to see if those interventions work to rule out any some sort of a disability that they may be, you know, they may be experiencing that may really prevent them from learning the content. You have to be careful with that because they’re in their first year in the United States so it is going to be difficult for some to show mastery of growth right away. So, sometimes, we give them six months to a year just to have enough exposure to the English language. So, sometimes those are the kids that we keep them for three semesters because the process really takes a year and a half for them to have some time under their belt to show some understanding of something that they’re learning for us to be able to assess. Whether they’ve learned their materials or if they haven’t with interventions. Additional interventions have them learn them and if they if they haven’t, then maybe for them exceptional students’ services todetermine to do additional testing to see if there is some sort of a disability. So, those are the students that we may end up keeping them for longer than a year. On the opposite, we may have some students that we may keep them for less than a year. For less than two semesters. So, one of the trends that has changed over the last couple of years is, a lot of our--. More of our students are coming from our Spanish speaking countries where you have formal education. You know, you have something like the hurricane in Puerto Rico and you see an influx of families that are settling here. Puerto Rico has a real established educational system and a lot of your students are coming to you with, you know, being exposed to the English language. So, sometimes, they, parents bring their children here and they enroll them here for one semester just to get an idea of what the, U.S. system, educational system is like. You know, a lot of them are older so they may be looking to see how many credits do you need to graduate. Those types of things. But then after a semester, they may be ready to go on to their, you know, home schools and be ready to take additional classes. You also have, we don’t offer the full spectrum of courses because you know, just the number of students and the faculty that we have. So, I’ll give you an example. You require four Englishes for a student to graduate from our school. We only offer English one and English two because very rarely do we get students who have courses that are equivalent to an English two or English one here in the United States. When the other student who’s maxed those out and they neede an English three, they can’t take that here so we look at an early transition for them to go to another school where they can take those classes. So, it just depends. A lot of your older students depends on their education. Their previous education. The number of credits they’re coming to us with and what we are able to offer them. Sometimes, if we’re not able to offer them with any more credits, there’s no need for them to stay here because then that’s just wasting their time because they could be taking additional credits at their home schools. So sometimes we’re going to transition them early.
HM: Okay. And do students have a say in when they are ready to leave? Or, is that a decision that--.
AZ: Well, normally it is a decision that we make. If they’ve been here for a year and unless they are part of our IST or going through the EC process, you know, after a year, then probably eighty-five to ninety percent of our students will leave after a year. Sometimes, we do get the input of the teachers. Sometimes we’re on the fence because I recognize that I’m in an office. I’m not teaching them every day. And teachers are the ones who hold the expertise in teaching the children every day. So, sometimes we do have teachers that come to say, hey I think this kid really can benefit from being here another semester. Then we ask them, let’s take a look at their data. Because, we have to be mindful because these are opportunities that we are providing for them and we have to have equitable practices to be able to provide these opportunities for children because at the end of the day, if we offer this opportunity just about all of our parents will want our children to be here for more than a year. So, when we are making the decision of sending someone after a year versus keeping them here for an extra semester, you have to be able to justify. So, we definitely go back to the teachers and ask them for the data to do a comparison between someone that we are transitioning early or someone we are transitioning after a year and this child and if the data shows that this child hasn’t learned at the same pace that we expect them to then we can bring them back. So, they do have some say. And then sometimes parents. We also transition in the middle of the year. And that’s a tough transition for elementary and middle school students. Transitions. So, we just did a transition in June and students will start at their new schools in August. That is a natural transition because everyone is starting out at a new school. You may have people who have moved. So, when they start at a new school in August, you know, it is okay because everyone’s going to make new friends. People are going to be in different classes. So, it is okay. But the transition that we do in January, that is a tougher transition for elementary and middle because as someone who struggles with English in a new country, and now, I am in a new school in January where everyone has made friends. Now I am, you know, a stranger in the classroom and it’s going to be hard for me to make friends. Just for that sometimes, students will struggle with their social and emotional ways. We consider maybe keeping them back for another semester and transitioning them in August when it’s a little more natural or time for them to start a new school.
HM: Great. And I know that in the PowerPoint you gave us, there are some obstacles to educating these students listed that I’m excited to look over. But would you talk about some of the challenges about the work that you do here concerning these students?
AZ: Yeah. Absolutely. I think language is always the first one. I mean, I think even when they’re here, parents and teachers communicating with the parents, you have to have an interpreter there all the time talking with the students. Sometimes they understand, they don’t. And rightfully so because they’re just learning the language. Parental involvement is something that we also struggle with because as you may imagine, you know settling into a new country and if it’s not under favorable conditions, parents are working. They’re busy. You know working different times of the day and then getting them here for parent conferences or for parent events. Sometimes that is challenging. Transportation is also challenging because if you guys know a little bit about Guilford County, from one side of Guilford County to the other is quite a few miles. So, someone could be living, you know, close to Burlington which is still Guilford County. That is thirty, forty minutes from here. So, transportation and then gas prices. Those types of things. So parental involvement really becomes an issue for us. Another issue we tend to see that in high school is a lot of our students whether they’re here with their families or whether they’re here alone without parents, the financial situation. So, there’s a financial burden among the families that are here. If they’re here living with the friends of the family they have to be able to provide financial support with whoever they’re living with. So, one of the things that we see with our students, especially with our high school students, they tend to have more or higher dropout rates because they want to drop out and they want to go and work. Especially that becomes even higher when you have students who are sixteen, seventeen years of age who are coming with an interrupted education and now you’re seventeen years of age you place them in ninth grade and they need four more years of schooling to graduate so then you have those two options. Four years of school and, yeah, I can work but I can’t work full time. I’m seventeen years of age and I’m an able body and I can go out and work and provide financial support for whoever I’m living with. So, from time to time, we do have to compete with that and it’s hard to compete with that when you’re having to compete with financial freedom and being able to support, you know, living here, paying the rent, car insurance. Those types of things. Versus staying in school. So that becomes a really, you know, a big challenge for us. Sometimes you work out with employers out in a community to help employ our students after school hours. You know, we have a few students that we employed here nearby that the school bus actually takes them to their, to the McDonalds that they work. So just looking at different obstacles that they’re faced with. Trying to come over with different ways for them to overcome those obstacles. You know, of course, insurance. You know, immunization. All students have to have immunization so, you know, if you’re coming in as a refugee, refugee resettlement groups, they will provide you with that service for three months. After three months, you know, you’ve got to find your own sources of insurance, sources of income. Those types of things. So, children having to go out and get immunizations and go see doctors and those types of things, they may not have the insurance. So, our social worker really works you know, with the community, with the health department and different clinics to be able to provide those supports for our parents. That’s the clinic and those are the days and the hours that you can go to see them. So, those are just some of the few of the barriers, the challenges we face.
HM: Okay, yeah. So, let’s say a student arrives in Guilford County, I want to understand the path from arriving here and arriving at your school. So, are you involved with doing outreach? How do students hear about Newcomers and come here?
AZ: Sure. That’s great. I think that all of Guilford County schools are aware of the Newcomers program. So, they know that, and we are third--. On paper we’re third through twelfth but we don’t have any twelfth graders because we like for them to graduate from their home schools. So, we really have third to eleventh graders here. So, our schools do a really good job when you have a new family coming in as they are intaking or enrolling them in, you know, I think right away they sense there’s some sort of a language barrier and this is the first time that they’ve been in the United States. They’ll pick up the phone and they’ll reach out to us. They’ll say, I’ve got a family from Venezuela and a family from Pakistan. They just got here. They’re in third grade. K through two they have to go to their own schools. Anyone that’s third grader or higher they have the option of coming to Newcomers. We are a school of choice. So,when parents come to us, we tell them about all of the things and all of the services that we offer to them. But, we are a school of choice. It is not mandated that parents come to Newcomers or their children enroll at Newcomers. We just give them the information about the services that we will provide for them and how long they’ll be here and those types of things. And at the end of the day it’s the decision of the parents for them to decide whether they want to enroll their children here in Newcomers or enroll them in their home schools. Sometimes, some of the factors that go into that decision making is we are centrally located in the district in Guilford County. So, we do have a shuttle system. But Guilford County school transportation and sometimes, some of our earliest students will be picked up around six, six fifteen in the morning to go to a hub to get on another bus to get here. Sometimes parents say, no, I live right across from the elementary school. My children can go. That is literally walking distance. So, walking distance versus an hour and a half on the bus, I want to keep my child here and I don’t want to go to Newcomers. You also have sometimes multiple siblings. Say you have a kid, two child that is not eligible to come to Newcomers so sometimes the parents or the guardians they don’t want to split the families up. So, they say, you know what, I have a first grader who’s going to go to this school. I don’t want to send my fourth grader to Newcomers. I want to keep them together. So, sometimes they don’t come to Newcomers and send them to their own schools.
HM: Okay.
AZ: Yeah.
HM: Okay. So, I know that schools often play really important roles in communities, in terms of disseminating information and being a safe place for students, so what role does Newcomers play in the community networks and support for the families in this area?
AZ: Sure. So, our PTA is actually a local church. So, we ,you know, we look at the demographics of our students. We have, you know, we have students from all over the world. So, we reach out to our community because one of the things that we realize is we can wrap around our students here at school but until the whole community wraps around them, it really doesn’t work because we protect them. We do all of those things for our students. But, when they go out, you know, they’re faced with different obstacles. So, we reach out to our religious organizations in the area. We reach out to our synagogues. We reach out to our mosques. We reach out to our churches. We reach out to those--. We reach out to our Buddhist temples that are here in Greensboro. We make sure that we bring them in. We even contact them when parents are having issues with some of those things because we know that those clerics or ministers or preachers are looked at as leaders in their community. To be able to bring them in and mentor some of our students. You know, we look at, you know, things out in the community in terms of insurance. You know, in terms of food stamps. You know, different supports that if we’re not able to provide for them help our parents, you know, set them up with those supports to be able to help them so we can support ourchildren. We try to bring the community in, you know. We bring attorneys in. We bring in folks. We have landlords that work with our refugee students and our parents because sometimes they may not have the documentation to be able to do a lease. So, we have some landlords that work with our students. We have that information. So, we are doing it in an enrollment. We’re able to see what the needs are of the parents and unless they’re coming with a resettlement group we can help them with some of the supports that are out in the community. So, really try to wrap the whole community around our students because it really does take a village to do the work.
HM: Yeah. That’s great. And, what hopes do you have for the future of your school? How do you hope to continue to improve what you’re doing at Newcomers?
AZ: Yeah. So, I hope to continue to exist. You know, unfortunately, funding is always the issue in education. But we have a lot of support from our superintendents, school board members. You know, teachers come in and been around for eleven, twelve years now. So, we want to continue to grow. Our numbers continue to grow every year and you know, we have a small building so we would like to see if some point, if the funding is there, to continue to expand because sometimes that decision, you know, additional enrollment becomes an issue of size. And, an issue of size of the building. You know, we have small classes, so you can only fit so many children that’s going to have a conducive learning environment. So, in a small classroom that is built for twenty students, you have thirty students just because of the size of the classroom. That’s something that’s going to be conducive in a learning environment in the classroom. So, we’re hoping to continue to grow. We’re hoping to continue to create that awareness for a population of students. We have former students who are doctors, who are educators, who are engineers, who are lawyers. You know, our children go on to do wonderful things. And just continuing to work against that stereotype that, you know, our children are limited to the opportunities that they have because the sky is the limit for them. The only difference is, and I find myself using myself as an example all the time. Sometimes, children are out working with a twelve year gap. I was twelve years of age when I came to this country. You are twelve years behind compared to your peers. That just means you have to work twice or twelve times as hard to catch up to your peers so you can compete in this marketplace for jobs and different opportunities for yourself. We have to be able to, you know, look at our children and provide them opportunities to speed up that process so they can have access to the opportunities that non-ESL peers have out in this area. So, just hopefully, you know, continue to do that.
HM: That’s great. Yeah. So, I know I mentioned some about the research that I’m doing and how I’m making recommendations to New Hanover County Schools in August. So, as someone with a lot of knowledge about this kind of thing, what do you feel like is at the core of success for immigrant and refugee students? If there are some recommendations that you feel I--. Something I need to get across to the board to best support these students? Is there something that comes to mind?
AZ: I’ll tell you. I would never have been able to do this without the folks, you know prior to me, would have never been able to do the work that we’re able to do without the folks who are in the [inaudible] and that’s the teachers. Anyone that is trying to start something like this, you got to have the right people to do the job every day. So, we have that. That has evolved. So, I think you know, you’re definitely have to look at people, you know, like yourself who are coming from ESL backgrounds, who have the passion to educate children. I think one of the things that we got to make sure is that we’re not here to save children. You know? We’re here to educate children. Sometimes you see people who want to work with our population of students because it is a feel-good kind of a job. And that’s great. We want people to feel good about what they do. But at the end of the day, we have to educate our children because education is going to provide opportunities for them in the future. So, I think that is the key there is to make sure that you design the programs sometimes, it can start out small scale. One campus of a school. But you got to have the right people who are leading it. You have to have the folks who are going to be passionate about doing the work and that’s work that there’s no boundary. You know, we have parents that reach out to me at twelve thirty or one o’clock in the morning that need help with something. You have to be able to. So, if someone that is eight to four persons, after four o’clock they don’t want to deal with this, unfortunately that doesn’t work. And folks prior to me who opened this program were and still are those kinds of people. Your heart has to be with the students and you have to be able to create those opportunities and you have to be able to fight the stereotypes that you’re going to be faced with all the time to make sure you continue to fight and continue to advocate for the students. Yeah. But people, your personnel is going to be the key. If you have the right people the program will run itself. And I’ve been very fortunate to have that.
HM: That’s great. So, I know this is school is pretty unique to North Carolina. Are there programs like this around the country?
AZ: There are. We are, we had someone that came from the department of education last year. And they actually verified that we are the only one of a kind program in the United States that has elementary, middle, and high in the same building.
HM: Oh, wow.
AZ: There are lots of other programs. I think when we were trying to open this program back in 2007 there were models out in New York and out in California who had been doing this a lot longer than we have. I actually had the pleasure of visiting a school down in Houston, which has a lot more of an immigrant population than we do. And they have separate elementary, they have separate middle and separate high schools. Of course, enrollment is much larger than ours. Their high school had almost 2,000 students there.
HM: Wow.
AZ: But they also, one of the neat things that they did was they had a double shift high school. The hours of the school were 9AM to 12AM. So, if you had students that wanted to work in the evening they could attend during the day. If you had someone that wanted to work during the day, they could attend in the evening. So, there are a lot of different programs that are out there and folks that recognize there has to be something different for our ESL students because coming here, placing them in mainstream schools, that just doesn’t work. Unfortunately, that does not work. Children are already behind and they’ll feel even more behind. And when you have some of the things that we listed here about bullying, and them not knowing the language, children get picked on. The social and emotional piece. They continue to fall further and further behind that eventually they drop out. So, yes. I mean there are a lot of other schools that are in the area. Not sure of North Carolina but there are a lot of states that have these models already in place and they’re doing a great job.
HM: That’s great.
AZ: Yeah.
HM: Well, that’s all I have for you. Thank you so much for having us today.
AZ: Absolutely, my pleasure. And you guys have the information--. [END OF INTERVIEW]
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Es: Resumen
Abu Zaeem describe su posición como director de la Doris Henderson Escuela de “Newcomers” (recien llegados). Explica cómo la escuela atiende a estudiantes inmigrantes y refugiados en los grados tres a doce durante uno, dos o tres semestres, ayudándoles a familiarizarse con el inglés y el sistema escolar estadounidense antes de que se transfieran a sus escuelas locales. Habla de servicios y estrategias para ayudar a los estudiantes que están lidiando con un trauma al llegar a los Estados Unidos. Compartió varios de los desafíos de su trabajo, incluida la comunicación con los padres cuando existen barreras de idioma y tasas de abandono escolar entre los estudiantes mayores que desean trabajar. Enfatizó que la Escuela es una excelente opción para muchas familias, pero algunas eligen otras escuelas tradicionales debido a la ubicación, la edad de otros hermanos u otras razones. Compartió las limitaciones de una escuela pequeña para una población que está creciendo, y admitió que la financiación es un problema constante. Finalmente, enfatizó que el trabajo de la Escuela para recién llegados sería imposible sin sus maestros, quienes están comprometidos en educar y defender a los estudiantes y su bienestar todos los días.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Abu Zaeem, 27 junio 2019, R-0988, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-0988 -- Zaeem, Abu.
Description
An account of the resource
Abu Zaeem describes his position as the principal of Doris Henderson Newcomers School in Greensboro, North Carolina. He explains how the school serves immigrant and refugee students in grades three through twelve for one, two, or three semesters by helping them acclimate to English and the American school system before they are transitioned to their home public schools. He discusses services and strategies to help students who are dealing with trauma upon arriving to the United States. He shares several of the challenges of his work, including communicating with parents when there are language barriers and dropout rates among older students who want to work. He emphasized that while the Newcomers School is a great option for many families, some choose traditional schools because of location, age of other siblings, or other reasons. He shared the limitations of a small school for a growing population of students, and admitted that funding is consistently an issue. Finally, he emphasized that the work of the Newcomers School would be impossible without its teachers, who are invested in educating and advocating for students and their well-being every day.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-06-27
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/28597">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
R0988_Audio.mp3
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/03ed2a3e93d62c399c8b6e2d14fbe2d4.mp3
bce02081f1f7e2a6fa0e034569567414
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/898e4679b375285170cc033540bd9ea0.pdf
7a42a6270892b972baace03c80a9ea5c
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0989
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
2018-10-12
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Quiñones, Vicky Muñiz.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Professors
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1946
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
San Juan -- Puerto Rico
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Durham -- Durham County --North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-66.116666 18.465299),1946,1;POINT(-78.901805 35.996653),2018,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Graham, Alexandra.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Spanish
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
This interview was conducted in Spanish by interviewer Alexandra Graham with interviewee Dr. Vicky Muñiz Quiñones. Throughout the interview, Dr. Muñiz Quiñones tells us about her history in education as a student and then as a professor. She also recounts to us a brief history of migration from Puerto Rico to the contiguous United States, although she does not consider Puerto Rico to be part of the United States. She explains why she believes this and then gives us an account of why many Puerto Ricans are moving to North Carolina, which is now the state with the twelfth largest Puerto Rican population. Dr. Muñiz Quiñones then gives us a brief account of her personal migration story from Puerto Rico after Hurricane Maria in 2017. She describes the difficulties of leaving behind her friends and colleagues at the University of Puerto Rico and moving to North Carolina. She tells us about how she initially felt disoriented but slowly began regaining a sense of independence after several months.Dr. Vicky Muñiz Quiñones was born in San Juan, Puerto Rico and relocated to North Carolina in 2017. She worked for 25 years at the University of Puerto Rico where she was a professor and Dean of General Studies. Dr. Muñiz Quiñones earned her doctorate in Urban Social Geography at Syracuse University.
The interviewer, Alexandra Graham, is a graduate student at UNC. She is working on her Master of Arts in Teaching with a specialty in Elementary Education and teaching English as a Second Language (ESL). She recently graduated from UNC with a degree in Hispanic Linguistics and a second major in Economics. Spanish is her second language.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Vicky Muñiz Quiñones, 12 October 2018, R-0989, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/28576
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Adult Education; Media; Migratory Experience; University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill; Integration and segregation; Climate Change
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
[00:00:01] Alexandra Graham: Hola, estamos aquí con Vicky Muñiz. ¿Esta (inaudible) así? Vamos a empezar con la entrevista. [00:00:07] ¿Podíamos, podíamos empezar con un relato de su trabajo en la Universidad de Puerto Rico y también su área de estudio?
[00:00:14] Vicky Muñiz: Si. Yo trabajé durante veinticinco años en la Universidad de Puerto Rico. Me retiré en agosto del año pasado justamente antes del huracán María. En la universidad enseñaba Ciencias Sociales, Estudios Urbanos, Estudios sobre Géneros, Estudios sobre Migración y sobre el Espacio.
En la universidad estaba afiliada principalmente a la Facultad de Estudios Generales, que es la facultad a la cual llegan todos los estudiantes que van a estudiar en el Recinto de Rio Piedras y allí comienzan su… su carrera. Tuve la oportunidad de trabajar con, con los estudiantes que llegaban - los… los “freshmen” y que estudiaban cualquier carrera. Mi entrenamiento como geógrafa fue muy útil porque los Estudios Generales tienen una perspectiva interdisciplinaria y la Geografía también. Hice mis Estudios Graduados - tanto maestría como doctorado en la Universidad de Syracuse. Hice Urban Social Geography with emphasis on Gender and Social and Ethnic Minorities. El título de mi disertación es “The Defense of the Neighborhood as a Response to Urban Revitalization and Gentrification: Puerto Rican Women’s Struggle in Sunset Park”. En la disertación trabajé género, minorías étnicas y desarrollo urbano y asuntos relacionados con el espacio. En los cursos trataba asuntos de desigualdad, globalización, desarrollo económico… especialmente de Puerto Rico y especialmente a partir del siglo diecinueve, el fin de la colonia española, la invasión estadounidense y el cambio de soberanía hasta el presente.
La mayor parte del tiempo fui profesora, pero en los últimos cinco años estuve en posiciones administrativas. Fui directora del Departamento de Ciencias Sociales y luego decana de Facultad donde pude promover proyectos que me interesaban mucho como el “Higher Education for Prisoners Project” y la creación de un programa sub graduado y graduado sobre afro descendencia. También, mientras trabajaba en mi disertación, trabajé en la, la ciudad de Nueva York, donde dirigí… fui líder comunitaria e hice mucho trabajo con la comunidad puertorriqueña y dominicana en el área de vivienda y en el área de educación. Dirigí dos centros que trabajaban esos temas en el barrio de Sunset Park en Brooklyn. Experimenté discrimen, sobre todo en la vivienda, o sea que conozco de primera mano lo que sufren muchos puertorriqueños… y creo que eso más o menos cubre (la primera pregunta).
AG: Que importante trabajo. Gracias por decirme un poco de eso.
VM: Gracias.
AG: ¿Vamos a cambiar el tema un poquito y podría usted decirnos como inmigrante, [00:04:27] cuales son algunas razones por las que las personas se han mudado de Puerto Rico a los Estados Unidos y a otros países en las pasadas décadas y… y también por qué, por qué usted no considera usted Puerto Rico como parte de los Estados Unidos?
VM: Bueno, voy a empezar por la segunda parte porque creo que conecta mejor.
AG: Okay, perfecto.
VM: Yo considero que Puerto Rico es una colonia de Estados Unidos. Aunque legalmente somos una posesión de Estados Unidos no somos parte de Estados Unidos. En Puerto Rico existe mucha gente que desean que Puerto Rico pueda convertirse en estado, pero hay otras personas que desean mantener las relaciones coloniales que existen en este momento con algunos cambios, que tengamos un poco más de control sobre nuestros asuntos. Pero también abemos otros que entendemos que lo que Puerto Rico debe de hacer es independizarse… seguir un camino con soberanía propia que le permita decidir sus asuntos porque nosotros tenemos una historia y una cultura muy diferente. Eso no significa que no apreciemos a los Estados Unidos como apreciamos a otros países, pero nos gustaría ser parte de la comunidad internacional de países soberanos. Pero, por ser colonia de Estados Unidos desde 1898 y antes de España, hemos estado en constante movimiento.
Razones para abreviar (la migración a los Estados Unidos) pues mayormente son razones de trabajo. La gente busca oportunidades de empleo fuera de nuestra isla. Muchas veces también es por razones familiares… seguir a los que ya se han ido. En esta época más reciente, por supuesto, la devastación del huracán forzó a muchos puertorriqueños, como a mi persona, a salir porque las condiciones en Puerto Rico no nos permitían quedarnos. Los puertorriqueños en época de España, ya habían comenzado a emigrar a Estados Unidos. En aquel momento emigraban mayormente porque estaban en contra del régimen español. Eran marinos mercantes que trabajaban con la carga que iba entre Estados Unidos y Puerto Rico o eran exiliados por estar en oposición a Estados Unidos. También había un grupo de puertorriqueños que estaba compuesto de tabaqueros. Trabajaban en el tabaco. Los primeros asentamientos fueron en New Orleans, en New York City y en Tampa, Florida. En Tampa estaban los tabaqueros. Cuando Estados Unidos… cuando hay el cambio de soberanía y Estados Unidos toma control de Puerto Rico, la migración se va hacia Estados Unidos, hacia la Ciudad de Nueva York principalmente, porque hay unos cambios… unas transformaciones estructurales en Puerto Rico que lleva a cabo Estados Unidos para acomodar al capital agrícola.
Las transformaciones conllevan un cambio de una economía de subsistencia a una economía para la exportación y eso deja a muchos puertorriqueños sin trabajo. Al estar sin trabajo, empiezan a salir de la isla. Ya desde ese momento se empieza hablar de que Puerto Rico esta sobrepoblado, utilizando teorías maltusianas. No lo había estado bajo España unos meses antes, pero era la forma de explicar que había un excedente de población laboral que no se podía emplear. Así que los puertorriqueños empiezan a salir a América Latina, a Hawái. Hay como cinco mil puertorriqueños que se van a trabajar en las plantaciones azucareras en Hawái. Además, hay un huracán, el huracán San Ciriaco - nuevamente otro huracán - que causa mucha devastación en la agricultura y…Puerto Rico se queda sin producción azucarera para suplir la demanda internacional. Hawái, que esta en el otro lado…esta en el Pacifico, por su lado tiene una gran demanda de azúcar y necesita trabajadores. Así que muchos van para allá. Y el resto llega a los Estados Unidos buscando trabajo.
Más adelante, en 1917 se aprueba la Ley Jones que tiene dos elementos importantes. Un elemento es que nos obliga a utilizar barcos estadounidenses para transportar mercancía entre Estados Unidos y Puerto Rico. Esas son las leyes de cabotaje. Pero por el otro lado también, nos obliga a servir en las fuerzas armadas. Algunos dirían que se concede, otros diríamos se impone, la ciudadanía de Estados Unidos y por lo tanto los hombres puertorriqueños en aquel momento tienen obligatoriamente que servir en las fuerzas armadas. Desde entonces, los puertorriqueños han estado en todas las guerras en las cuales Estados Unidos ha participado. Hoy en día seguimos luchando, como lo hicimos en aquel momento, porque las leyes de cabotaje no apliquen a Puerto Rico, ya que encárese toda la producción. El ochenta y cinco por ciento de todo de lo que nosotros consumimos llega por barco por lo que nuestro costo de vida se, se encárese.
Para mediados del siglo pasado, después de la segunda guerra mundial, en Puerto Rico se hicieron otros cambios estructurales. Se comenzó el proceso de industrialización para que las industrias… las manufactureras de Estados Unidos, el capital manufacturero de Estados Unidos, encontrara trabajo barato. Es decir, los puertorriqueños trabajaban por unos salarios muy bajos y eso les permitió a muchas compañías transferir sus operaciones a Puerto Rico. Entiendo que fue el comienzo de lo que hoy llamamos Globalización, pero en Puerto Rico se hizo primero. Al industrializar a Puerto Rico como la industria necesita menos trabajadores que la agricultura, por lo tanto, hubo otro momento de expulsión de trabajadores del mercado de trabajo y muchos de los trabajadores empezaron a emigrar. Ya tenían la facilidad también de viajar a Estados Unidos porque la ciudadanía les permitía hacerlo sin pasaporte, visa, etcétera. Así que muchos empezaron a emigrar.
El lugar preferido fue la Ciudad de Nueva York. Es decir, los puertorriqueños, como muchos migrantes, van donde ya hay algunos compatriotas o personas conocidas viviendo. Llegaron a Nueva York. También trabajaron en los campos agrícolas en los estados cercanos a Nueva York. Por lo tanto, empezó a dispersarse la población en el noreste de Estados Unidos, Pennsylvania, Connecticut, Massachusetts, etcétera… New Jersey. Pero, la Ciudad de Nueva York fue el lugar principal y fue por razones económicas. De hecho, hay un trabajo muy importante del Center for Puerto Rican Studies de Hunter College que se llama “Labor Migration under Capitalism” que recoge toda esta historia y aunque ya tiene bastantes años, todavía explica muy bien lo que causó la migración que fue después de la segunda guerra mundial en que todo el mundo… sobre todo el mundo occidental, se estaba reorganizando económicamente. Eso fue a mediados de siglo. Luego podemos hablar de la migración de este siglo que esta relacionada con la deuda de Puerto Rico.
La deuda que tiene Puerto Rico, que ha causado una crisis comenzó en las últimas décadas del siglo pasado cuando los gobernantes tomaban prestado para cuadrar el presupuesto y cumplir promesas de campaña, sobre todo obras de infraestructura costosísimas. Sin embargo, la deuda mayor fue cuando Estados Unidos suspendió las leyes que habían protegido a las empresas estadounidenses radicadas en Puerto Rico, las conocidas como 936, refiriéndose a la sección de la ley de rentas internas federal que eximia de pagar impuestos sobre las ganancias a las corporaciones estadounidenses radicadas en Puerto Rico. Al eliminar esas leyes, muchas de esas empresas se fueron de Puerto Rico y nuevamente llevo a desempleo. Para seguir ofreciendo muchos servicios que antes se ofrecían, los gobiernos del 1997 en adelante comenzaron hacer muchos préstamos y la deuda fue aumentando hasta el día de hoy. Actualmente esta situación ha desembocado en una crisis muy grande porque no se puede pagar la deuda, lo que ha llevado a una nueva migración. Pero también, antes de eso, desde Nueva York y desde el noreste, y en los estados del centro: Chicago, Ohio…ya existían comunidades puertorriqueñas muy grandes. En Chicago y en Ohio los puertorriqueños trabajaban en manufactura relacionada, por ejemplo, con el acero y la industria automovilística mientras en Nueva York era más bien la industria de textiles. Los puertorriqueños en el noreste empiezan también a sentir el impacto de los cambios que se están llevando a cabo en la economía mundial… empiezan a perder sus empleos a la misma vez que los procesos del desarrollo urbano, sobre todo gentrificación va expulsando a los puertorriqueños de sus viviendas y sus barrios. Los puertorriqueños habían logrado asentarse en vecindarios o barrios como comunidades. En la Ciudad de Nueva York se conoce mucho East Harlem o Spanish Harlem, Loisaida, en el Bronx. En Brooklyn, donde yo viví por once a siete años, había comunidades puertorriqueñas o barrios puertorriqueños de larga duración. Desde los ‘70 empieza a observarse un proceso de desplazamiento. Llega el momento en que no tienen a donde ir y empiezan a salir del noreste. De la misma manera, salen porque algunos han mejorado su situación económica y quieren lugares donde haya mejor clima y donde haya mejor calidad de vida. Así es que empezamos a ver un movimiento hacia el sur de Estados Unidos con Florida y Texas, pero sobretodo Florida, como el lugar principal de migración interna. Esto… y bueno, también a… a Carolina del Norte.
AG: Si.
VM: [00:18:48] La historia de Carolina del Norte es otra. La digo dentro de unos minutos, pero… o sea de los 70 en adelante se va viendo un movimiento de puertorriqueños hacia otros lugares. En los 2000 los puertorriqueños siguen saliendo de Puerto Rico por las razones que había mencionado de la deuda. El huracán del 2017 motiva otro gran desplazamiento de puertorriqueños a Estados Unidos, porque son devastadas todas las comunicaciones, las vías públicas y la economía, sobretodo como consecuencia de la caída del sistema eléctrico. Los que tienen niños, en busca de escuelas, los que tienen personas mayores para que puedan tener acceso a cuidados médicos, personas buscando trabajo porque las empresas en las que trabajaban no están operando en las condiciones en la que ha quedado Puerto Rico, y estudiantes universitarios también y muchos, no todos, se quedan al terminar sus estudios. Esas también son razones para establecerse aquí. ¿Decía de North Carolina…porque están los puertorriqueños en North Carolina?
AG: Si.
[00:20:43] VM: Pues mucha gente piensa que es en los ‘40 y ‘50… en realidad los puertorriqueños empezaron a emigrar a North Carolina, Carolina del Norte (en) 1918. ¿Ya eran ciudadanos y cuando en 1918 comienza la construcción del Fort Bragg en Cumberland, creo que es en el condado de Cumberland, reclutan a puertorriqueños en la isla porque son mano de obra barata… no? Los traen a Carolina del Norte, los ponen a trabajar. Una veintena de puertorriqueños que están trabajando en el fuerte mueren en una, en un brote de influenza y están enterrados en el cementerio de Fort Bragg. Otros puertorriqueños terminan su trabajo y regresan a Puerto Rico y otros se quedan aquí. Así empieza entonces a construirse una comunidad de puertorriqueños en los alrededores de Fort Bragg. O sea, van a vivir en las afueras. En ese momento son 4000, un poco más de 4000, puertorriqueños los que traen y con el tiempo como ya Puerto Rico participa en las fuerzas armadas llegan a Fort Bragg para propósitos de entrenamiento y se van quedando. Una vez terminan su compromiso con el ejército muchos se quedan. Los descendientes de esos puertorriqueños, nacidos en muchas ocasiones aquí, también se quedan y empiezan a dispersarse en el resto del estado. Así es que tenemos… que, aunque se establecen primero en Fort Bragg, tenemos ahora puertorriqueños en todas partes de North Carolina o en muchas partes de North Carolina. Aunque no es común tener barrios puertorriqueños. Es decir, tener a los puertorriqueños viviendo todos en un mismo vecindario, en una misma área. Esa es una de las particularidades que creo que se debe de estudiar… porque esa es la impresión que hay de que los puertorriqueños viven muy dispersos. En estos momentos, la mayor parte de los puertorriqueños viven en el área de Cumberland y del fuerte, en el Triangle Area, y en, en Charlotte. Según entiendo fueron alrededor de 135 los que llegaron después del huracán. Que no es mucho comparado con los que llegaron a Orlando, que se calcula fueron mas de 150,000 mil. Pero, de todas maneras, añaden a esta población que ha ido en crecimiento y como decías anteriormente, North Carolina se ha convertido en el decimosegundo-
AG: Si.
VM: …estado con mayor población de puertorriqueños. Así que, en resumen: razones laborales, razones de seguir a familiares, razones también de salud, muchos vienen buscando… atención medica, mejor de la que se ha recibido en Puerto Rico.
AG: Y entonces ha sido un gran aumento en los pasados diez años de la población puertorriqueña, entonces aparte de, del hur, hur, hurican, ¿huricán?
VM: Huracán.
AG: Huracán. ¡Gracias! [00:25:12] A parte de esto… que cree que son las razones por eso en los últimos diez años?
VM: En los últimos diez años es buscando trabajo como decía [interrupción inaudible] anteriormente, el problema de la deuda…
AG: Si.
VM: ¿Verdad? Que viene, sobre todo a partir del 2007 cuando empezó una recesión económica en Puerto Rico y desde ese momento ha habido mucho, mucha migración hacia Estados Unidos y North Carolina ha atraído porque muchos m-bueno porque ya tienen familiares aquí.
AG: Uh huh.
VM: ¿O conocidos, esa es una razón… [inaudible] y los migrantes… verdad? Siempre tratan- hay el que va solito a aventurarse, pero luego muchos le siguen. Así que en estos momentos muchos puertorriqueños sencillamente están siguiendo a los que vinieron anteriormente. Algunos, como decía, están el Research Triangle, pues un área de varias universidades y muchos vienen a estudiar y terminan quedándose o ya habiendo tenido la experiencia de estudios aquí, regresan a Puerto Rico y luego buscan trabajo en esta área. Conozco algunos que así ha sido el caso, que se han quedado o que han regresado al área porque estudiaron aquí. Entiendo que también esta es un área donde hay muchos servicios de salud que están atrayendo a puertorriqueños y sobretodo mucha gente que busca lugares más tranquilos para vivir, que los lugares tradicionales en el noreste, incluso en Orlando, en Florida, buscan lugares más tranquilos. Así que esas son las razones que yo he podido… conocer a través de otros puertorriqueños que han, han venido.
AG: Entonces la historia es muy larga [se ríe].
VM: Si, si.
AG: ¡Gracias!
VM: Creemos, creemos que es muy reciente, pero es…
AG: Si, muy larga. ¿Entonces esta usted familiarizada con las comunidades militares de puertorriqueños en el este de Carolina del Norte?
VM: Realmente no. Conozco que esta el Camp Lejeune un poquito más, creo, que al este y más en la costa, pero eso es un Marine, Marine Air Force base… los puertorriqueños tienden a estar más en el Army y en todo caso en el Air Force, creo yo por lo que oigo. La mayor parte de los puertorriqueños están en Fort Bragg y hacen sus comunidades o sus viviendas cerca de Fort Bragg. Los que conozco… precisamente ayer estuve con una persona que trabajo hasta hace dos semanas en Fort Bragg, era civil, pero trabajaba allí. El me dice que no conoce mucha gente puertorriqueña en Fayetteville. Sabe que existen. Hay un festival puertorriqueño y una parada puertorriqueña, pero no conozco sobre ello, más allá de lo que te comentaba anteriormente, y si sé que muchos puertorriqueños que han trabajado en la base. O sea, no solamente van para entrenamientos sino que se quedan, trabajan, tienen posiciones laborales, de dirección, de entrenamiento- que entrenan a los soldados que llegan de distintos lugares… pero no, no conozco mucho más.
AG: Okay. ¿Y sabe cuando originaron los grupos?
VM: 1918.
AG: 18.
VM: Cuando vinieron a…
AG: Okay.
VM: …a, a trabajar en la construcción del fuerte.
AG: Okay, gracias. Y cambiando el tema, un poquito otra vez, cual ha sido su experiencia o la de otros que se han mudado de Puerto Rico a Nort- North Carolina recientemente después del devastador huracán del año pasado… si, ¿[00:30:03] cual ha sido la experiencia?
VM: Bueno [aplaude y hay risa de respuesta], yo llegue en octubre, mediados de octubre. Muy traumatizada…
AG: Si.
VM: …por la experiencia que había tenido en Puerto Rico. Yo viví la experiencia del huracán sola y quedé muy, muy afectada. En los primeros tres meses, de mediados de octubre a mediados de enero, me quedé viviendo en casa de mi hija y aunque recibía mucho apoyo de parte de ella y de la familia - ella, mis dos nietas y su esposo - esos primeros tres meses fueron unos meses en los que tuve que trabajar conmigo misma, creo que todavía estoy haciéndolo, por el trauma que sentía después del huracán. Me sentía desorientada, vulnerable, lloraba, era incapaz de tomar decisiones sola como las había [despeja su garganta] podido tomar anteriormente. Me sentía aislada, porque, aunque estaba en familia, era solamente con ellos, no tenia amigos, no tenia apoyo institucional, me había jubilado, retirado del trabajo. No tenia otras personas que me apoyaran con excepción, tengo que decir, de la oficina de esta oficina.
AG: ¿Instituto del Estudio de las Américas?
VM: Global- de las Américas, que mi hija trabaja aquí y a través de ella conocí algunas de las otras personas que trabajan y de ellas recibí apoyo- incluyendo su director Louis Pérez que me permitió usar facilidades para colaborar en un proyecto que vinculaba a Puerto Rico con North Carolina. Puedo hablar de eso más tarde. Aparte de eso, también parte de la experiencia era que había perdido toda mi independencia. Yo era una mujer, como decía antes, yo había estado trabajando hasta agosto, había trabajado en posiciones de importancia en las que tomaba decisiones que impactaban a mucha gente. Tenía el respeto de la comunidad académica, tenía cierta autoridad. Y aquí llego y soy prácticamente invisible. Así que eso me afecto mucho y tampoco tenia formas de moverme para tratar de conocer gente y hacerme conocer por otras personas. Así que eso caracterizo mis primeros tres meses. Luego, los siguientes cuatro meses que fue de enero a mayo, me movía ya… ya para ese momento tomé la decisión de quedarme. O sea, cuando yo llegue a North Carolina, como muchos de los que salimos de Puerto Rico en el primer momento, salí con la idea de que esto era algo temporero en lo que se resolvían- mejoraban las condiciones en Puerto Rico. Y de hecho, muchos de los que se fueron a Orlando, que fueron tantos, muchos ya han regresado, verdad… pero en el caso mío, pues quizás por la edad y la situación laboral mía, ya que me había retirado del mercado laboral… y el hecho de que yo tenia en mente que me iba a reunir con mi hija más adelante, lo único que no esperaba que fuera tan pronto, yo esperaba que pasaran cinco años, pero en ese momento decidí que ya que estaba aquí, me quedaba. Así que yo no se hasta que punto mi experiencia es la de otros, pero yo creo que quizás, aunque sean distintas las razones, muchos quizás se quedaban… porque encontraban trabajo y se quedaban o porque se acostumbraban a la forma de vivir y se quedaban o porque los niños estaban en la escuela y no querían trastocar las experiencias que sus hijos estaban teniendo. En el caso mío, fue porque ya yo iba hacerlo, lo iba hacer más adelante y lo que hice fue… quedarme. Entonces habiendo tomado la decisión de quedarme, busqué un lugar independiente y empecé a establecerme, pero tenia muy poco… mis cosas estaban en Puerto Rico.
AG: Si…
VM: Yo cerré la puerta de mi casa con llave cuando me fui y me vine para acá. Todo se quedo allá. Así es que, al empezar a establecerme, lo que tenia era espacio vacío y eso pues no ayudaba a darme la estabilidad y el sentido de pertenencia que necesitaba para considerar a North Carolina mi nuevo hogar.
VM: O sea que todavía yo tenia un pie en Puerto Rico y un pie acá. El clima para mi también fue muy difícil porque estamos hablando de mediados de enero a mediados de mayo. Es decir que esos meses fueron los meses de invierno y como muchos otros puertorriqueños con los cuales hemos- he hablado, llegamos equivocados. Creíamos que el clima aquí iba a ser mucho más benigno y no se si es que fue este año, pero encontramos que fue fuerte el frio y fue largo. Mas largo el invierno de lo que esperábamos…
AG: Si.
VM: [00:37:07] En la isla tenemos sol todo el año. Tenemos unas temperaturas agradables todo el año y aunque es un lugar húmedo que para muchas personas de acá es difícil de tolerar, nosotros estamos acostumbrados… y una brisa del mar… que nos mantiene las temperaturas agradables y el clima es algo que para nosotros los puertorriqueños es… y yo diría que, para los caribeños, es difícil de acostumbrarse. Así que esos primeros meses… de este año ya estaba en un lugar aparte, propio, pero aun así fueron meses de mucha adaptación. Tuve varias situaciones que me ayudaron a sobre llevarlo. Uno, tengo que decir fue el apoyo de una compañera, de una colega, una compañera aquí de esta oficina que se involucro conmigo en un proyecto cotidia- domestico de cambiarle el tapizado a una silla y, y fue muy agradable porque lo hicimos juntas. Ella lo hizo principalmente…
AG: [Se ríe]…
VM: …pero me dio la oportunidad de compartir con ella, irla conociendo, que ella me conociera a mi y de ir saliendo del marco estricto de mi familia. También empecé a dedicarle tiempo, más tiempo a solas, independiente de mi hija, a mis nietas y eso pues fue muy bueno porque yo no las conocía. Ellas iban solo dos veces, dos semanas al año a Puerto Rico.
AG: Si.
VM: Yo no llegue a conocerlas bien a ellas cuando estuve viviendo en la casa… pues estaban los padres. Así que me gusta más cuando estoy yo sola con ellas, tengo oportunidad de interactuar mejor. Y también tuve la oportunidad de presentar un papel sobre el impacto del huracán María aquí y sobre la experiencia que había tenido y fue una experiencia que me hacía falta porque he estado alejada de todo tipo de trabajo académico, de análisis y de estudio profundo y tener esa oportunidad, pues también me levanto un poco el espíritu. A mediados de mayo, llego mi carro y llegaron algunas de mis pertenencias y ya ha pasado solamente un mes, pero en este mes mi vida ha ido mejorando mucho. Me siento más en control de mi vida. Me siento que puedo… le he dado forma al apartamento. Ya es un hogar… no me siento tan aislada porque puedo salir, me puedo mover. Estoy tomando clases de yoga, estoy haciendo line dancing, voy a la librería, a la biblioteca, voy a la, hacer mis compras. Todo eso me da control y a la misma vez me permite romper con el aislamiento en el que estaba viviendo. He podido conocer algunos puertorriqueños y continúo haciendo actividades, involucrada en actividades de ayuda a Puerto Rico que son creo que tres: una, un proyecto de adopción de escuelas en el que vinculamos escuelas de Estados Unidos con escuelas en Puerto Rico para que ofrezcan ayuda y sirvan de contacto para personas que de alguna manera quieren o visitar a Puerto Rico o ayudar a Puerto Rico de alguna manera. Así que este último mes ha sido, ya empiezo a sentirme… pero yo creo que el proceso de adaptación de cualquier migrante es un proceso lento, duro. Y el hecho de que aquí los puertorriqueños están tan dispersos, pues no los tengo, no era… Yo vivía en Nueva York y yo llegué a Nueva York también sin carro, pero allí tenía trabajo y transportación pública, bueno, que me conectaba muy bien. Pero también vivía en una comunidad, en un barrio puertorriqueño. Yo salía a la calle y me encontraba con otros puertorriqueños y a todas partes que yo iba me encontraba con otros puertorriqueños. Además, mi trabajo me permitía contribuir al bienestar de mi comunidad.
AG: Muy diferente aquí.
VM: Muy diferente aquí, si.
AG: Gracias. Muchas gracias… Una pregunta es, es la experiencia de reunificación para los puertorriqueños que han, que se han mudado después del…
VM: Del huracán.
AG: ¿Del huracán, [00:42:39] es común esa experiencia?
VM: Yo creo que aquí, pues como te iba diciendo, es distinta la manera en que nos establecemos, pero ahora también hay unos medios para mantenernos comunicados que no existían cuando yo me establecí en Nueva York. Hay varios- en cada ciudad hay páginas en Facebook de puertorriqueños en Fayetteville, puertorriqueños en Charlotte, puertorriqueños en Raleigh…. y los de Raleigh pues recogen a los puertorriqueños del Triangle Area. Así que, los puertorriqueños aparentemente, si están conectados de esas maneras, aunque no sea “face-to-face contact”. Y los que están llegando pues llegan normalmente a lugares donde tienen a alguien. O sea, llegan porque, después de María, porque tienen alguien. Probablemente llegaron a la casa de esa persona. ¿Verdad? Entonces, si se quedan, obtienen lugares separados y si se regresan pues bueno. Pero, yo creo que los puertorriqueños hemos hecho comunidad desde el principio de nuestra migración a principios del siglo pasado. Los que vinieron a mediados del siglo, ya para ese momento el transporte aéreo era mucho más económico que el transporte que utilizaron los europeos cuando vinieron aquí. Por lo tanto, a diferencia de los europeos que una vez llegaban se tenían que quedar aquí porque el viaje de vuelta era muy complejo, para el puertorriqueño desde el principio ir y venir… ha sido muy, muy… ha sido muy frecuente, ¿no? Nosotros vamos y venimos. ¿En Puerto Rico la mayor- yo no me atrevo a decirlo científicamente verdad? Que la mayoría, pero me, me- apuesto que la mayoría de puertorriqueños han ido o tienen alguien en su familia que haya estado en Estados Unidos en algún momento… y que, que han regresado. La llamamos la puerta giratoria, unos entran y otros salen.
En la época de los 60, tuvimos una migración de retorno muy grande y todavía - vamos por tres meses, vamos por cinco años y, y regresamos. Somos lo que se llama también una comunidad transnacional porque tenemos, estamos en un sitio geográficamente, pero a la misma vez estos vínculos que tenemos a través de Facebook, de Skype, de email y de ir y venir, pues nos mantienen conectados y es mucho más fácil que para el europeo mantener nuestra, nuestra cultura porque estamos conectados. Nos mantenemos conectados y el huracán ha sido una gran muestra en que tan pronto aquí los puertorriqueños que estaban mejor informados de lo que estábamos en la isla, de lo que ocurrió en Puerto Rico porque tenían acceso a todas las imágenes que nosotros por falta de electricidad no teníamos. Y así, por ejemplo, mi hija- mis hijas me enviaron a mis los pasajes para yo… digo dos pasajes por que ellas me sacaron dos pasajes para que yo usara el, el que pudiera. Y entonces me llaman para informarme, no me consiguen, llaman a otras personas y es a través de otras personas que yo sé que tengo pasaje para venir aquí. Pero es porque ellas están informadas de la devastación que ha dejado María… a través de los medios de comunicación.
AG: … Y entonces si, si puede decirme un poco mas como se vinculan los puertorriqueños en, en North Carolina con su tierra y con su gente antes y también después del hur- huracán. [00:47:35] Es más difícil ahora comunicar?
VM: No, no…
AG: … ¿Todavía se falta electricidad? ¿O no?
VM: No, esto, ya la electricidad… bueno ese es un “tricky question” porque el gobierno dice que noventa y pico, casi toda la electricidad se ha recuperado. Sin embargo, la prensa en Estados- en Puerto Rico, informa que hay muchos barrios, muchos pueblos todavía… que carecen de electricidad y de comunicaciones. En el caso mío, como yo soy residente del área metropolitana de San Juan, allí… hay. La luz, la electricidad se cae a menudo, pero regresa. Hay formas de comunicarse. Ahora, yo creo que lo importante, por un lado, son los medios, a través de los cuales nos comunicamos y otra de las maneras son las cosas que se hacen, verdad… para mantenernos vinculados siempre, no solamente en el huracán María. En cualquier evento de clima que ocurre, por ejemplo, cuando hay inundaciones… los puertorriqueños de acá se movilizan para apoyar a los puertorriqueños de la isla. Igual que hacen los puertorriqueños de la isla que fueron muy solidarios con las personas que sufrieron en el huracán Harvey. Lo mismo, fueron solidarios con los residentes de islas vecinas durante el huracán Irma que precedió a María por dos semanas. Pero siempre hay mucho contacto… y los propósitos son desde cotidianos, voy para allá, te mando a mi hijo en, en las… las mamás de acá envían a los hijos a pasar el verano con los abuelos o, o vice versa. Esto, muchos puertorriqueños van a visitar amistades. O sea, hay mucho movimiento. Quizás por lo que decía anteriormente… el costo se ha ido reduciendo y eso nos da una movilidad. Como vivimos en una isla, buscamos salir, salir de ella frecuentemente. Por salud, también las razones que decía anteriormente, pero hay mucha, mucha comunicación entre- somos una comunidad transnacional…
AG: Si.
VM: …tenemos un pie aquí y el otro allá.
AG: Si.
VM: ¡Y nuestro corazón! Ayer me encontraba con un señor que me decía, “estoy aquí, pero yo me quiero ir, me quiero ir”, “estoy bien, pero me quiero ir”.
AG: Si, entonces que buena la observación… entonces, ¿[00:51:05] que piensa usted que es importante preguntar o entender sobre las comunidades puertorique- puertorriqueñas en Carolina del Norte o también el sureste del país o los Estados Unidos continentales?
VM: Si, yo creo que las preguntas son las mismas que se deben de hacer para los migrantes, para cualquier migrante, en cualquier lugar. Primeramente… conocer, hay que conocer cual es el perfil de ese migrante, porque en el grupo grande de migrantes siempre hay subgrupos, por ejemplo, por edad, por género, etcétera, que tienen, tienen necesidades especiales. Por lo tanto, para conocer como, cuales son las necesidades que se tienen que atender pues hay que ir a ese perfil sociodemográfico. Pero, por supuesto, yo creo que el idioma es, es algo bien importante que hay que entender. Hay una noción, que yo entiendo que es falsa, de… que los puertorriqueños somos bilingües. Y si, hay unos que son más bilingües que otros y estamos familiarizados con el idioma porque vemos mucho cable televisión en inglés, porque el inglés es el idioma de los negocios, pero eso es muy distinto a poderlo hablar con fluidez. Aunque yo considero que tengo bastante buen inglés, sin embargo, en muchas ocasiones me siento que no tengo el vocabulario, que no articulo con la rapidez, que estoy traduciendo en vez de pensando… y por lo tanto yo creo que debe de haber… programas para ayudar a los puertorriqueños, igual que a cualquier otro migrante, que viene con un idioma distinto, a manejarlo en la escuela, en los hospitales. Por ejemplo, debe de haber interpretes en las cortes, es decir, cuales son los servicios, ofrecer servicios que permitan que la persona que no maneja el idioma con suficiente seguridad, pueda expresarse. Por ejemplo, la persona va a un hospital con un problema de salud y lo necesita decir en su propio idioma, porque no sabe. Una persona tiene un problema psicológico, necesita hablar en su propio idioma. Así que yo creo que eso, ese tipo de preguntas, quienes son y cuales son los servicios son importantes para cualquier. Hay que promover la sensitividad cultural. De que se entienda cuales son nuestras particularidades y no tomarlas como ofensa. El hecho de que hablemos español entre nosotros, no entiendo que debe de ofender al estadounidense y eso lamentablemente lo estoy viendo en Facebook. Veo muchos momentos en que personas, con mucha intolerancia, se dirigen a- sobre todo a los latinos, ¿verdad? No los veo con, con otros inmigrantes de otras partes, rusos, polacos, personas de otras partes, es con los latinos y quizás con las personas del medio oriente. Si están aquí, tienen que hablar inglés pues saber otros idiomas es un beneficio. No lo deberíamos de ver… claro, tu si me puedes decir, bueno estamos, estoy en mi país y yo voy hablar en inglés y si tu quieres hablar conmigo, háblame en inglés. Excepto en situaciones en la, verdad… como la que te decía anteriormente de que uno no, no sabe como expresarse. Pero, mucha gente pretende que incluso con otras personas del mismo grupo, otros latinos, pues que uno tenga que hablar inglés porque ese es el país, el idioma de aquí. Así que yo creo que hay que desarrollar un poco de la sensibilidad cultural, tanto con el idioma como con, también con, otras formas culturales que de ninguna manera representan ni una ofensa ni una agresión al, al país donde nos encontramos…
AG: Gracias, creo que es todo lo que tengo yo. Entonces, [00:56:55] hay algo más que, ¿que usted quiera añadir?
VM: Ay, yo creo que yo ya he hablado mucho.
AG Y VM: [Se ríen]
AG: ¡Eso esta bien!
VM: ¡Hay mucho más que se puede decir!
AG: ¡Si, claro!
VM: Pero pues habría verdad que profundizar un poco, sobre todo la relación- para mi, por ejemplo, a mi me preocupa en el caso mío particular y yo creo que hay otras personas que comparten mi sentir, no sabría decir cuantas, que nos preocupa la situación de Puerto Rico. No solamente la deuda que tiene en estos momentos, no solamente las condiciones provocadas por el huracán, sino toda la relación colonial de Puerto Rico y Estados Unidos, porque esa relación nos impide a nosotros a salir adelante. Las leyes de Estados Unidos que aplican a Puerto Rico, muchas veces hay algunas que favorecen, pero económicamente son leyes para favorecer a las empresas norteamericanas o estadounidenses. Y en ese caso, si es para favorecerlas a ellas, van en contra de nuestro propio desarrollo y nos mantienen en un estado de subdesarrollo… en lugar de nosotros poder avanzar. Así es que, resolver la situación colonial de Puerto Rico es, tiene urgencia. Yo no sé cómo desde aquí yo puedo continuar colaborando con los esfuerzos de descolonización, pero es uno de los retos que yo tengo al estar aquí, y que comparten otros puertorriqueños que igual que yo estamos en Estados Unidos. Y creo que es bien importante hablar de esto porque como decíamos informalmente antes de comenzar que bueno, hemos recibido mucho, bueno, es maravilloso el apoyo que hemos recibido de Estados Unidos, de la población, verdad, porque… hoy leí antes de salir para acá que FEMA envió lo que llamamos comida chatarra… comida que no sirve, chips, candy, verdad… este, cosas que, que no eran nutritivas a Puerto Rico, que bueno nos mantenía, nos quitaba el hambre pero no nos mantenía alimentados en esos días… pero la población estadounidense, yo creo que en términos generales ha sido muy solidaria y lo agradecemos. Pero, en el proceso han adoptado también unas defensas de que Estados Unidos debe de tratar a los puertorriqueños de una manera igualitaria por ser ciudadanos y esa manera igualitaria incluyen para muchas personas convertirnos en Estado. Están bajo la creencia que todos los puertorriqueños desean que Puerto Rico sea estado y eso no es así. No, no queremos perder la amistad con Estados Unidos, pero nos gusta, a muchos nos gustaría tener soberanía y control sobre nuestros propios asuntos y sobre nuestro propio futuro.
AG: Okay. Entonces, muchísimas gracias por todo
VM: Gracias tu, por la oportunidad de decir todo esto.
AG: ¡Si!
[1:01:13] VM Y AG: [Se ríen]
[END OF INTERVIEW]
TRANSCRITO POR: LAURA DUQUE
8 DE NOVIEMBRE DEL 2018
Edited by: Marisa Carlton on June 6, 2019
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Profesores
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Español
Es: Temas
Medios de comunicación; Experiencia migratoria; Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill; Integración y segregación; Cambio climático
Es: Transcripción
[00:00:01] Alexandra Graham: Hola, estamos aquí con Vicky Muñiz. ¿Esta (inaudible) así? Vamos a empezar con la entrevista. [00:00:07] ¿Podíamos, podíamos empezar con un relato de su trabajo en la Universidad de Puerto Rico y también su área de estudio?
[00:00:14] Vicky Muñiz: Si. Yo trabajé durante veinticinco años en la Universidad de Puerto Rico. Me retiré en agosto del año pasado justamente antes del huracán María. En la universidad enseñaba Ciencias Sociales, Estudios Urbanos, Estudios sobre Géneros, Estudios sobre Migración y sobre el Espacio.
En la universidad estaba afiliada principalmente a la Facultad de Estudios Generales, que es la facultad a la cual llegan todos los estudiantes que van a estudiar en el Recinto de Rio Piedras y allí comienzan su… su carrera. Tuve la oportunidad de trabajar con, con los estudiantes que llegaban - los… los “freshmen” y que estudiaban cualquier carrera. Mi entrenamiento como geógrafa fue muy útil porque los Estudios Generales tienen una perspectiva interdisciplinaria y la Geografía también. Hice mis Estudios Graduados - tanto maestría como doctorado en la Universidad de Syracuse. Hice Urban Social Geography with emphasis on Gender and Social and Ethnic Minorities. El título de mi disertación es “The Defense of the Neighborhood as a Response to Urban Revitalization and Gentrification: Puerto Rican Women’s Struggle in Sunset Park”. En la disertación trabajé género, minorías étnicas y desarrollo urbano y asuntos relacionados con el espacio. En los cursos trataba asuntos de desigualdad, globalización, desarrollo económico… especialmente de Puerto Rico y especialmente a partir del siglo diecinueve, el fin de la colonia española, la invasión estadounidense y el cambio de soberanía hasta el presente.
La mayor parte del tiempo fui profesora, pero en los últimos cinco años estuve en posiciones administrativas. Fui directora del Departamento de Ciencias Sociales y luego decana de Facultad donde pude promover proyectos que me interesaban mucho como el “Higher Education for Prisoners Project” y la creación de un programa sub graduado y graduado sobre afro descendencia. También, mientras trabajaba en mi disertación, trabajé en la, la ciudad de Nueva York, donde dirigí… fui líder comunitaria e hice mucho trabajo con la comunidad puertorriqueña y dominicana en el área de vivienda y en el área de educación. Dirigí dos centros que trabajaban esos temas en el barrio de Sunset Park en Brooklyn. Experimenté discrimen, sobre todo en la vivienda, o sea que conozco de primera mano lo que sufren muchos puertorriqueños… y creo que eso más o menos cubre (la primera pregunta).
AG: Que importante trabajo. Gracias por decirme un poco de eso.
VM: Gracias.
AG: ¿Vamos a cambiar el tema un poquito y podría usted decirnos como inmigrante, [00:04:27] cuales son algunas razones por las que las personas se han mudado de Puerto Rico a los Estados Unidos y a otros países en las pasadas décadas y… y también por qué, por qué usted no considera usted Puerto Rico como parte de los Estados Unidos?
VM: Bueno, voy a empezar por la segunda parte porque creo que conecta mejor.
AG: Okay, perfecto.
VM: Yo considero que Puerto Rico es una colonia de Estados Unidos. Aunque legalmente somos una posesión de Estados Unidos no somos parte de Estados Unidos. En Puerto Rico existe mucha gente que desean que Puerto Rico pueda convertirse en estado, pero hay otras personas que desean mantener las relaciones coloniales que existen en este momento con algunos cambios, que tengamos un poco más de control sobre nuestros asuntos. Pero también abemos otros que entendemos que lo que Puerto Rico debe de hacer es independizarse… seguir un camino con soberanía propia que le permita decidir sus asuntos porque nosotros tenemos una historia y una cultura muy diferente. Eso no significa que no apreciemos a los Estados Unidos como apreciamos a otros países, pero nos gustaría ser parte de la comunidad internacional de países soberanos. Pero, por ser colonia de Estados Unidos desde 1898 y antes de España, hemos estado en constante movimiento.
Razones para abreviar (la migración a los Estados Unidos) pues mayormente son razones de trabajo. La gente busca oportunidades de empleo fuera de nuestra isla. Muchas veces también es por razones familiares… seguir a los que ya se han ido. En esta época más reciente, por supuesto, la devastación del huracán forzó a muchos puertorriqueños, como a mi persona, a salir porque las condiciones en Puerto Rico no nos permitían quedarnos. Los puertorriqueños en época de España, ya habían comenzado a emigrar a Estados Unidos. En aquel momento emigraban mayormente porque estaban en contra del régimen español. Eran marinos mercantes que trabajaban con la carga que iba entre Estados Unidos y Puerto Rico o eran exiliados por estar en oposición a Estados Unidos. También había un grupo de puertorriqueños que estaba compuesto de tabaqueros. Trabajaban en el tabaco. Los primeros asentamientos fueron en New Orleans, en New York City y en Tampa, Florida. En Tampa estaban los tabaqueros. Cuando Estados Unidos… cuando hay el cambio de soberanía y Estados Unidos toma control de Puerto Rico, la migración se va hacia Estados Unidos, hacia la Ciudad de Nueva York principalmente, porque hay unos cambios… unas transformaciones estructurales en Puerto Rico que lleva a cabo Estados Unidos para acomodar al capital agrícola.
Las transformaciones conllevan un cambio de una economía de subsistencia a una economía para la exportación y eso deja a muchos puertorriqueños sin trabajo. Al estar sin trabajo, empiezan a salir de la isla. Ya desde ese momento se empieza hablar de que Puerto Rico esta sobrepoblado, utilizando teorías maltusianas. No lo había estado bajo España unos meses antes, pero era la forma de explicar que había un excedente de población laboral que no se podía emplear. Así que los puertorriqueños empiezan a salir a América Latina, a Hawái. Hay como cinco mil puertorriqueños que se van a trabajar en las plantaciones azucareras en Hawái. Además, hay un huracán, el huracán San Ciriaco - nuevamente otro huracán - que causa mucha devastación en la agricultura y…Puerto Rico se queda sin producción azucarera para suplir la demanda internacional. Hawái, que esta en el otro lado…esta en el Pacifico, por su lado tiene una gran demanda de azúcar y necesita trabajadores. Así que muchos van para allá. Y el resto llega a los Estados Unidos buscando trabajo.
Más adelante, en 1917 se aprueba la Ley Jones que tiene dos elementos importantes. Un elemento es que nos obliga a utilizar barcos estadounidenses para transportar mercancía entre Estados Unidos y Puerto Rico. Esas son las leyes de cabotaje. Pero por el otro lado también, nos obliga a servir en las fuerzas armadas. Algunos dirían que se concede, otros diríamos se impone, la ciudadanía de Estados Unidos y por lo tanto los hombres puertorriqueños en aquel momento tienen obligatoriamente que servir en las fuerzas armadas. Desde entonces, los puertorriqueños han estado en todas las guerras en las cuales Estados Unidos ha participado. Hoy en día seguimos luchando, como lo hicimos en aquel momento, porque las leyes de cabotaje no apliquen a Puerto Rico, ya que encárese toda la producción. El ochenta y cinco por ciento de todo de lo que nosotros consumimos llega por barco por lo que nuestro costo de vida se, se encárese.
Para mediados del siglo pasado, después de la segunda guerra mundial, en Puerto Rico se hicieron otros cambios estructurales. Se comenzó el proceso de industrialización para que las industrias… las manufactureras de Estados Unidos, el capital manufacturero de Estados Unidos, encontrara trabajo barato. Es decir, los puertorriqueños trabajaban por unos salarios muy bajos y eso les permitió a muchas compañías transferir sus operaciones a Puerto Rico. Entiendo que fue el comienzo de lo que hoy llamamos Globalización, pero en Puerto Rico se hizo primero. Al industrializar a Puerto Rico como la industria necesita menos trabajadores que la agricultura, por lo tanto, hubo otro momento de expulsión de trabajadores del mercado de trabajo y muchos de los trabajadores empezaron a emigrar. Ya tenían la facilidad también de viajar a Estados Unidos porque la ciudadanía les permitía hacerlo sin pasaporte, visa, etcétera. Así que muchos empezaron a emigrar.
El lugar preferido fue la Ciudad de Nueva York. Es decir, los puertorriqueños, como muchos migrantes, van donde ya hay algunos compatriotas o personas conocidas viviendo. Llegaron a Nueva York. También trabajaron en los campos agrícolas en los estados cercanos a Nueva York. Por lo tanto, empezó a dispersarse la población en el noreste de Estados Unidos, Pennsylvania, Connecticut, Massachusetts, etcétera… New Jersey. Pero, la Ciudad de Nueva York fue el lugar principal y fue por razones económicas. De hecho, hay un trabajo muy importante del Center for Puerto Rican Studies de Hunter College que se llama “Labor Migration under Capitalism” que recoge toda esta historia y aunque ya tiene bastantes años, todavía explica muy bien lo que causó la migración que fue después de la segunda guerra mundial en que todo el mundo… sobre todo el mundo occidental, se estaba reorganizando económicamente. Eso fue a mediados de siglo. Luego podemos hablar de la migración de este siglo que esta relacionada con la deuda de Puerto Rico.
La deuda que tiene Puerto Rico, que ha causado una crisis comenzó en las últimas décadas del siglo pasado cuando los gobernantes tomaban prestado para cuadrar el presupuesto y cumplir promesas de campaña, sobre todo obras de infraestructura costosísimas. Sin embargo, la deuda mayor fue cuando Estados Unidos suspendió las leyes que habían protegido a las empresas estadounidenses radicadas en Puerto Rico, las conocidas como 936, refiriéndose a la sección de la ley de rentas internas federal que eximia de pagar impuestos sobre las ganancias a las corporaciones estadounidenses radicadas en Puerto Rico. Al eliminar esas leyes, muchas de esas empresas se fueron de Puerto Rico y nuevamente llevo a desempleo. Para seguir ofreciendo muchos servicios que antes se ofrecían, los gobiernos del 1997 en adelante comenzaron hacer muchos préstamos y la deuda fue aumentando hasta el día de hoy. Actualmente esta situación ha desembocado en una crisis muy grande porque no se puede pagar la deuda, lo que ha llevado a una nueva migración. Pero también, antes de eso, desde Nueva York y desde el noreste, y en los estados del centro: Chicago, Ohio…ya existían comunidades puertorriqueñas muy grandes. En Chicago y en Ohio los puertorriqueños trabajaban en manufactura relacionada, por ejemplo, con el acero y la industria automovilística mientras en Nueva York era más bien la industria de textiles. Los puertorriqueños en el noreste empiezan también a sentir el impacto de los cambios que se están llevando a cabo en la economía mundial… empiezan a perder sus empleos a la misma vez que los procesos del desarrollo urbano, sobre todo gentrificación va expulsando a los puertorriqueños de sus viviendas y sus barrios. Los puertorriqueños habían logrado asentarse en vecindarios o barrios como comunidades. En la Ciudad de Nueva York se conoce mucho East Harlem o Spanish Harlem, Loisaida, en el Bronx. En Brooklyn, donde yo viví por once a siete años, había comunidades puertorriqueñas o barrios puertorriqueños de larga duración. Desde los ‘70 empieza a observarse un proceso de desplazamiento. Llega el momento en que no tienen a donde ir y empiezan a salir del noreste. De la misma manera, salen porque algunos han mejorado su situación económica y quieren lugares donde haya mejor clima y donde haya mejor calidad de vida. Así es que empezamos a ver un movimiento hacia el sur de Estados Unidos con Florida y Texas, pero sobretodo Florida, como el lugar principal de migración interna. Esto… y bueno, también a… a Carolina del Norte.
AG: Si.
VM: [00:18:48] La historia de Carolina del Norte es otra. La digo dentro de unos minutos, pero… o sea de los 70 en adelante se va viendo un movimiento de puertorriqueños hacia otros lugares. En los 2000 los puertorriqueños siguen saliendo de Puerto Rico por las razones que había mencionado de la deuda. El huracán del 2017 motiva otro gran desplazamiento de puertorriqueños a Estados Unidos, porque son devastadas todas las comunicaciones, las vías públicas y la economía, sobretodo como consecuencia de la caída del sistema eléctrico. Los que tienen niños, en busca de escuelas, los que tienen personas mayores para que puedan tener acceso a cuidados médicos, personas buscando trabajo porque las empresas en las que trabajaban no están operando en las condiciones en la que ha quedado Puerto Rico, y estudiantes universitarios también y muchos, no todos, se quedan al terminar sus estudios. Esas también son razones para establecerse aquí. ¿Decía de North Carolina…porque están los puertorriqueños en North Carolina?
AG: Si.
[00:20:43] VM: Pues mucha gente piensa que es en los ‘40 y ‘50… en realidad los puertorriqueños empezaron a emigrar a North Carolina, Carolina del Norte (en) 1918. ¿Ya eran ciudadanos y cuando en 1918 comienza la construcción del Fort Bragg en Cumberland, creo que es en el condado de Cumberland, reclutan a puertorriqueños en la isla porque son mano de obra barata… no? Los traen a Carolina del Norte, los ponen a trabajar. Una veintena de puertorriqueños que están trabajando en el fuerte mueren en una, en un brote de influenza y están enterrados en el cementerio de Fort Bragg. Otros puertorriqueños terminan su trabajo y regresan a Puerto Rico y otros se quedan aquí. Así empieza entonces a construirse una comunidad de puertorriqueños en los alrededores de Fort Bragg. O sea, van a vivir en las afueras. En ese momento son 4000, un poco más de 4000, puertorriqueños los que traen y con el tiempo como ya Puerto Rico participa en las fuerzas armadas llegan a Fort Bragg para propósitos de entrenamiento y se van quedando. Una vez terminan su compromiso con el ejército muchos se quedan. Los descendientes de esos puertorriqueños, nacidos en muchas ocasiones aquí, también se quedan y empiezan a dispersarse en el resto del estado. Así es que tenemos… que, aunque se establecen primero en Fort Bragg, tenemos ahora puertorriqueños en todas partes de North Carolina o en muchas partes de North Carolina. Aunque no es común tener barrios puertorriqueños. Es decir, tener a los puertorriqueños viviendo todos en un mismo vecindario, en una misma área. Esa es una de las particularidades que creo que se debe de estudiar… porque esa es la impresión que hay de que los puertorriqueños viven muy dispersos. En estos momentos, la mayor parte de los puertorriqueños viven en el área de Cumberland y del fuerte, en el Triangle Area, y en, en Charlotte. Según entiendo fueron alrededor de 135 los que llegaron después del huracán. Que no es mucho comparado con los que llegaron a Orlando, que se calcula fueron mas de 150,000 mil. Pero, de todas maneras, añaden a esta población que ha ido en crecimiento y como decías anteriormente, North Carolina se ha convertido en el decimosegundo-
AG: Si.
VM: …estado con mayor población de puertorriqueños. Así que, en resumen: razones laborales, razones de seguir a familiares, razones también de salud, muchos vienen buscando… atención medica, mejor de la que se ha recibido en Puerto Rico.
AG: Y entonces ha sido un gran aumento en los pasados diez años de la población puertorriqueña, entonces aparte de, del hur, hur, hurican, ¿huricán?
VM: Huracán.
AG: Huracán. ¡Gracias! [00:25:12] A parte de esto… que cree que son las razones por eso en los últimos diez años?
VM: En los últimos diez años es buscando trabajo como decía [interrupción inaudible] anteriormente, el problema de la deuda…
AG: Si.
VM: ¿Verdad? Que viene, sobre todo a partir del 2007 cuando empezó una recesión económica en Puerto Rico y desde ese momento ha habido mucho, mucha migración hacia Estados Unidos y North Carolina ha atraído porque muchos m-bueno porque ya tienen familiares aquí.
AG: Uh huh.
VM: ¿O conocidos, esa es una razón… [inaudible] y los migrantes… verdad? Siempre tratan- hay el que va solito a aventurarse, pero luego muchos le siguen. Así que en estos momentos muchos puertorriqueños sencillamente están siguiendo a los que vinieron anteriormente. Algunos, como decía, están el Research Triangle, pues un área de varias universidades y muchos vienen a estudiar y terminan quedándose o ya habiendo tenido la experiencia de estudios aquí, regresan a Puerto Rico y luego buscan trabajo en esta área. Conozco algunos que así ha sido el caso, que se han quedado o que han regresado al área porque estudiaron aquí. Entiendo que también esta es un área donde hay muchos servicios de salud que están atrayendo a puertorriqueños y sobretodo mucha gente que busca lugares más tranquilos para vivir, que los lugares tradicionales en el noreste, incluso en Orlando, en Florida, buscan lugares más tranquilos. Así que esas son las razones que yo he podido… conocer a través de otros puertorriqueños que han, han venido.
AG: Entonces la historia es muy larga [se ríe].
VM: Si, si.
AG: ¡Gracias!
VM: Creemos, creemos que es muy reciente, pero es…
AG: Si, muy larga. ¿Entonces esta usted familiarizada con las comunidades militares de puertorriqueños en el este de Carolina del Norte?
VM: Realmente no. Conozco que esta el Camp Lejeune un poquito más, creo, que al este y más en la costa, pero eso es un Marine, Marine Air Force base… los puertorriqueños tienden a estar más en el Army y en todo caso en el Air Force, creo yo por lo que oigo. La mayor parte de los puertorriqueños están en Fort Bragg y hacen sus comunidades o sus viviendas cerca de Fort Bragg. Los que conozco… precisamente ayer estuve con una persona que trabajo hasta hace dos semanas en Fort Bragg, era civil, pero trabajaba allí. El me dice que no conoce mucha gente puertorriqueña en Fayetteville. Sabe que existen. Hay un festival puertorriqueño y una parada puertorriqueña, pero no conozco sobre ello, más allá de lo que te comentaba anteriormente, y si sé que muchos puertorriqueños que han trabajado en la base. O sea, no solamente van para entrenamientos sino que se quedan, trabajan, tienen posiciones laborales, de dirección, de entrenamiento- que entrenan a los soldados que llegan de distintos lugares… pero no, no conozco mucho más.
AG: Okay. ¿Y sabe cuando originaron los grupos?
VM: 1918.
AG: 18.
VM: Cuando vinieron a…
AG: Okay.
VM: …a, a trabajar en la construcción del fuerte.
AG: Okay, gracias. Y cambiando el tema, un poquito otra vez, cual ha sido su experiencia o la de otros que se han mudado de Puerto Rico a Nort- North Carolina recientemente después del devastador huracán del año pasado… si, ¿[00:30:03] cual ha sido la experiencia?
VM: Bueno [aplaude y hay risa de respuesta], yo llegue en octubre, mediados de octubre. Muy traumatizada…
AG: Si.
VM: …por la experiencia que había tenido en Puerto Rico. Yo viví la experiencia del huracán sola y quedé muy, muy afectada. En los primeros tres meses, de mediados de octubre a mediados de enero, me quedé viviendo en casa de mi hija y aunque recibía mucho apoyo de parte de ella y de la familia - ella, mis dos nietas y su esposo - esos primeros tres meses fueron unos meses en los que tuve que trabajar conmigo misma, creo que todavía estoy haciéndolo, por el trauma que sentía después del huracán. Me sentía desorientada, vulnerable, lloraba, era incapaz de tomar decisiones sola como las había [despeja su garganta] podido tomar anteriormente. Me sentía aislada, porque, aunque estaba en familia, era solamente con ellos, no tenia amigos, no tenia apoyo institucional, me había jubilado, retirado del trabajo. No tenia otras personas que me apoyaran con excepción, tengo que decir, de la oficina de esta oficina.
AG: ¿Instituto del Estudio de las Américas?
VM: Global- de las Américas, que mi hija trabaja aquí y a través de ella conocí algunas de las otras personas que trabajan y de ellas recibí apoyo- incluyendo su director Louis Pérez que me permitió usar facilidades para colaborar en un proyecto que vinculaba a Puerto Rico con North Carolina. Puedo hablar de eso más tarde. Aparte de eso, también parte de la experiencia era que había perdido toda mi independencia. Yo era una mujer, como decía antes, yo había estado trabajando hasta agosto, había trabajado en posiciones de importancia en las que tomaba decisiones que impactaban a mucha gente. Tenía el respeto de la comunidad académica, tenía cierta autoridad. Y aquí llego y soy prácticamente invisible. Así que eso me afecto mucho y tampoco tenia formas de moverme para tratar de conocer gente y hacerme conocer por otras personas. Así que eso caracterizo mis primeros tres meses. Luego, los siguientes cuatro meses que fue de enero a mayo, me movía ya… ya para ese momento tomé la decisión de quedarme. O sea, cuando yo llegue a North Carolina, como muchos de los que salimos de Puerto Rico en el primer momento, salí con la idea de que esto era algo temporero en lo que se resolvían- mejoraban las condiciones en Puerto Rico. Y de hecho, muchos de los que se fueron a Orlando, que fueron tantos, muchos ya han regresado, verdad… pero en el caso mío, pues quizás por la edad y la situación laboral mía, ya que me había retirado del mercado laboral… y el hecho de que yo tenia en mente que me iba a reunir con mi hija más adelante, lo único que no esperaba que fuera tan pronto, yo esperaba que pasaran cinco años, pero en ese momento decidí que ya que estaba aquí, me quedaba. Así que yo no se hasta que punto mi experiencia es la de otros, pero yo creo que quizás, aunque sean distintas las razones, muchos quizás se quedaban… porque encontraban trabajo y se quedaban o porque se acostumbraban a la forma de vivir y se quedaban o porque los niños estaban en la escuela y no querían trastocar las experiencias que sus hijos estaban teniendo. En el caso mío, fue porque ya yo iba hacerlo, lo iba hacer más adelante y lo que hice fue… quedarme. Entonces habiendo tomado la decisión de quedarme, busqué un lugar independiente y empecé a establecerme, pero tenia muy poco… mis cosas estaban en Puerto Rico.
AG: Si…
VM: Yo cerré la puerta de mi casa con llave cuando me fui y me vine para acá. Todo se quedo allá. Así es que, al empezar a establecerme, lo que tenia era espacio vacío y eso pues no ayudaba a darme la estabilidad y el sentido de pertenencia que necesitaba para considerar a North Carolina mi nuevo hogar.
VM: O sea que todavía yo tenia un pie en Puerto Rico y un pie acá. El clima para mi también fue muy difícil porque estamos hablando de mediados de enero a mediados de mayo. Es decir que esos meses fueron los meses de invierno y como muchos otros puertorriqueños con los cuales hemos- he hablado, llegamos equivocados. Creíamos que el clima aquí iba a ser mucho más benigno y no se si es que fue este año, pero encontramos que fue fuerte el frio y fue largo. Mas largo el invierno de lo que esperábamos…
AG: Si.
VM: [00:37:07] En la isla tenemos sol todo el año. Tenemos unas temperaturas agradables todo el año y aunque es un lugar húmedo que para muchas personas de acá es difícil de tolerar, nosotros estamos acostumbrados… y una brisa del mar… que nos mantiene las temperaturas agradables y el clima es algo que para nosotros los puertorriqueños es… y yo diría que, para los caribeños, es difícil de acostumbrarse. Así que esos primeros meses… de este año ya estaba en un lugar aparte, propio, pero aun así fueron meses de mucha adaptación. Tuve varias situaciones que me ayudaron a sobre llevarlo. Uno, tengo que decir fue el apoyo de una compañera, de una colega, una compañera aquí de esta oficina que se involucro conmigo en un proyecto cotidia- domestico de cambiarle el tapizado a una silla y, y fue muy agradable porque lo hicimos juntas. Ella lo hizo principalmente…
AG: [Se ríe]…
VM: …pero me dio la oportunidad de compartir con ella, irla conociendo, que ella me conociera a mi y de ir saliendo del marco estricto de mi familia. También empecé a dedicarle tiempo, más tiempo a solas, independiente de mi hija, a mis nietas y eso pues fue muy bueno porque yo no las conocía. Ellas iban solo dos veces, dos semanas al año a Puerto Rico.
AG: Si.
VM: Yo no llegue a conocerlas bien a ellas cuando estuve viviendo en la casa… pues estaban los padres. Así que me gusta más cuando estoy yo sola con ellas, tengo oportunidad de interactuar mejor. Y también tuve la oportunidad de presentar un papel sobre el impacto del huracán María aquí y sobre la experiencia que había tenido y fue una experiencia que me hacía falta porque he estado alejada de todo tipo de trabajo académico, de análisis y de estudio profundo y tener esa oportunidad, pues también me levanto un poco el espíritu. A mediados de mayo, llego mi carro y llegaron algunas de mis pertenencias y ya ha pasado solamente un mes, pero en este mes mi vida ha ido mejorando mucho. Me siento más en control de mi vida. Me siento que puedo… le he dado forma al apartamento. Ya es un hogar… no me siento tan aislada porque puedo salir, me puedo mover. Estoy tomando clases de yoga, estoy haciendo line dancing, voy a la librería, a la biblioteca, voy a la, hacer mis compras. Todo eso me da control y a la misma vez me permite romper con el aislamiento en el que estaba viviendo. He podido conocer algunos puertorriqueños y continúo haciendo actividades, involucrada en actividades de ayuda a Puerto Rico que son creo que tres: una, un proyecto de adopción de escuelas en el que vinculamos escuelas de Estados Unidos con escuelas en Puerto Rico para que ofrezcan ayuda y sirvan de contacto para personas que de alguna manera quieren o visitar a Puerto Rico o ayudar a Puerto Rico de alguna manera. Así que este último mes ha sido, ya empiezo a sentirme… pero yo creo que el proceso de adaptación de cualquier migrante es un proceso lento, duro. Y el hecho de que aquí los puertorriqueños están tan dispersos, pues no los tengo, no era… Yo vivía en Nueva York y yo llegué a Nueva York también sin carro, pero allí tenía trabajo y transportación pública, bueno, que me conectaba muy bien. Pero también vivía en una comunidad, en un barrio puertorriqueño. Yo salía a la calle y me encontraba con otros puertorriqueños y a todas partes que yo iba me encontraba con otros puertorriqueños. Además, mi trabajo me permitía contribuir al bienestar de mi comunidad.
AG: Muy diferente aquí.
VM: Muy diferente aquí, si.
AG: Gracias. Muchas gracias… Una pregunta es, es la experiencia de reunificación para los puertorriqueños que han, que se han mudado después del…
VM: Del huracán.
AG: ¿Del huracán, [00:42:39] es común esa experiencia?
VM: Yo creo que aquí, pues como te iba diciendo, es distinta la manera en que nos establecemos, pero ahora también hay unos medios para mantenernos comunicados que no existían cuando yo me establecí en Nueva York. Hay varios- en cada ciudad hay páginas en Facebook de puertorriqueños en Fayetteville, puertorriqueños en Charlotte, puertorriqueños en Raleigh…. y los de Raleigh pues recogen a los puertorriqueños del Triangle Area. Así que, los puertorriqueños aparentemente, si están conectados de esas maneras, aunque no sea “face-to-face contact”. Y los que están llegando pues llegan normalmente a lugares donde tienen a alguien. O sea, llegan porque, después de María, porque tienen alguien. Probablemente llegaron a la casa de esa persona. ¿Verdad? Entonces, si se quedan, obtienen lugares separados y si se regresan pues bueno. Pero, yo creo que los puertorriqueños hemos hecho comunidad desde el principio de nuestra migración a principios del siglo pasado. Los que vinieron a mediados del siglo, ya para ese momento el transporte aéreo era mucho más económico que el transporte que utilizaron los europeos cuando vinieron aquí. Por lo tanto, a diferencia de los europeos que una vez llegaban se tenían que quedar aquí porque el viaje de vuelta era muy complejo, para el puertorriqueño desde el principio ir y venir… ha sido muy, muy… ha sido muy frecuente, ¿no? Nosotros vamos y venimos. ¿En Puerto Rico la mayor- yo no me atrevo a decirlo científicamente verdad? Que la mayoría, pero me, me- apuesto que la mayoría de puertorriqueños han ido o tienen alguien en su familia que haya estado en Estados Unidos en algún momento… y que, que han regresado. La llamamos la puerta giratoria, unos entran y otros salen.
En la época de los 60, tuvimos una migración de retorno muy grande y todavía - vamos por tres meses, vamos por cinco años y, y regresamos. Somos lo que se llama también una comunidad transnacional porque tenemos, estamos en un sitio geográficamente, pero a la misma vez estos vínculos que tenemos a través de Facebook, de Skype, de email y de ir y venir, pues nos mantienen conectados y es mucho más fácil que para el europeo mantener nuestra, nuestra cultura porque estamos conectados. Nos mantenemos conectados y el huracán ha sido una gran muestra en que tan pronto aquí los puertorriqueños que estaban mejor informados de lo que estábamos en la isla, de lo que ocurrió en Puerto Rico porque tenían acceso a todas las imágenes que nosotros por falta de electricidad no teníamos. Y así, por ejemplo, mi hija- mis hijas me enviaron a mis los pasajes para yo… digo dos pasajes por que ellas me sacaron dos pasajes para que yo usara el, el que pudiera. Y entonces me llaman para informarme, no me consiguen, llaman a otras personas y es a través de otras personas que yo sé que tengo pasaje para venir aquí. Pero es porque ellas están informadas de la devastación que ha dejado María… a través de los medios de comunicación.
AG: … Y entonces si, si puede decirme un poco mas como se vinculan los puertorriqueños en, en North Carolina con su tierra y con su gente antes y también después del hur- huracán. [00:47:35] Es más difícil ahora comunicar?
VM: No, no…
AG: … ¿Todavía se falta electricidad? ¿O no?
VM: No, esto, ya la electricidad… bueno ese es un “tricky question” porque el gobierno dice que noventa y pico, casi toda la electricidad se ha recuperado. Sin embargo, la prensa en Estados- en Puerto Rico, informa que hay muchos barrios, muchos pueblos todavía… que carecen de electricidad y de comunicaciones. En el caso mío, como yo soy residente del área metropolitana de San Juan, allí… hay. La luz, la electricidad se cae a menudo, pero regresa. Hay formas de comunicarse. Ahora, yo creo que lo importante, por un lado, son los medios, a través de los cuales nos comunicamos y otra de las maneras son las cosas que se hacen, verdad… para mantenernos vinculados siempre, no solamente en el huracán María. En cualquier evento de clima que ocurre, por ejemplo, cuando hay inundaciones… los puertorriqueños de acá se movilizan para apoyar a los puertorriqueños de la isla. Igual que hacen los puertorriqueños de la isla que fueron muy solidarios con las personas que sufrieron en el huracán Harvey. Lo mismo, fueron solidarios con los residentes de islas vecinas durante el huracán Irma que precedió a María por dos semanas. Pero siempre hay mucho contacto… y los propósitos son desde cotidianos, voy para allá, te mando a mi hijo en, en las… las mamás de acá envían a los hijos a pasar el verano con los abuelos o, o vice versa. Esto, muchos puertorriqueños van a visitar amistades. O sea, hay mucho movimiento. Quizás por lo que decía anteriormente… el costo se ha ido reduciendo y eso nos da una movilidad. Como vivimos en una isla, buscamos salir, salir de ella frecuentemente. Por salud, también las razones que decía anteriormente, pero hay mucha, mucha comunicación entre- somos una comunidad transnacional…
AG: Si.
VM: …tenemos un pie aquí y el otro allá.
AG: Si.
VM: ¡Y nuestro corazón! Ayer me encontraba con un señor que me decía, “estoy aquí, pero yo me quiero ir, me quiero ir”, “estoy bien, pero me quiero ir”.
AG: Si, entonces que buena la observación… entonces, ¿[00:51:05] que piensa usted que es importante preguntar o entender sobre las comunidades puertorique- puertorriqueñas en Carolina del Norte o también el sureste del país o los Estados Unidos continentales?
VM: Si, yo creo que las preguntas son las mismas que se deben de hacer para los migrantes, para cualquier migrante, en cualquier lugar. Primeramente… conocer, hay que conocer cual es el perfil de ese migrante, porque en el grupo grande de migrantes siempre hay subgrupos, por ejemplo, por edad, por género, etcétera, que tienen, tienen necesidades especiales. Por lo tanto, para conocer como, cuales son las necesidades que se tienen que atender pues hay que ir a ese perfil sociodemográfico. Pero, por supuesto, yo creo que el idioma es, es algo bien importante que hay que entender. Hay una noción, que yo entiendo que es falsa, de… que los puertorriqueños somos bilingües. Y si, hay unos que son más bilingües que otros y estamos familiarizados con el idioma porque vemos mucho cable televisión en inglés, porque el inglés es el idioma de los negocios, pero eso es muy distinto a poderlo hablar con fluidez. Aunque yo considero que tengo bastante buen inglés, sin embargo, en muchas ocasiones me siento que no tengo el vocabulario, que no articulo con la rapidez, que estoy traduciendo en vez de pensando… y por lo tanto yo creo que debe de haber… programas para ayudar a los puertorriqueños, igual que a cualquier otro migrante, que viene con un idioma distinto, a manejarlo en la escuela, en los hospitales. Por ejemplo, debe de haber interpretes en las cortes, es decir, cuales son los servicios, ofrecer servicios que permitan que la persona que no maneja el idioma con suficiente seguridad, pueda expresarse. Por ejemplo, la persona va a un hospital con un problema de salud y lo necesita decir en su propio idioma, porque no sabe. Una persona tiene un problema psicológico, necesita hablar en su propio idioma. Así que yo creo que eso, ese tipo de preguntas, quienes son y cuales son los servicios son importantes para cualquier. Hay que promover la sensitividad cultural. De que se entienda cuales son nuestras particularidades y no tomarlas como ofensa. El hecho de que hablemos español entre nosotros, no entiendo que debe de ofender al estadounidense y eso lamentablemente lo estoy viendo en Facebook. Veo muchos momentos en que personas, con mucha intolerancia, se dirigen a- sobre todo a los latinos, ¿verdad? No los veo con, con otros inmigrantes de otras partes, rusos, polacos, personas de otras partes, es con los latinos y quizás con las personas del medio oriente. Si están aquí, tienen que hablar inglés pues saber otros idiomas es un beneficio. No lo deberíamos de ver… claro, tu si me puedes decir, bueno estamos, estoy en mi país y yo voy hablar en inglés y si tu quieres hablar conmigo, háblame en inglés. Excepto en situaciones en la, verdad… como la que te decía anteriormente de que uno no, no sabe como expresarse. Pero, mucha gente pretende que incluso con otras personas del mismo grupo, otros latinos, pues que uno tenga que hablar inglés porque ese es el país, el idioma de aquí. Así que yo creo que hay que desarrollar un poco de la sensibilidad cultural, tanto con el idioma como con, también con, otras formas culturales que de ninguna manera representan ni una ofensa ni una agresión al, al país donde nos encontramos…
AG: Gracias, creo que es todo lo que tengo yo. Entonces, [00:56:55] hay algo más que, ¿que usted quiera añadir?
VM: Ay, yo creo que yo ya he hablado mucho.
AG Y VM: [Se ríen]
AG: ¡Eso esta bien!
VM: ¡Hay mucho más que se puede decir!
AG: ¡Si, claro!
VM: Pero pues habría verdad que profundizar un poco, sobre todo la relación- para mi, por ejemplo, a mi me preocupa en el caso mío particular y yo creo que hay otras personas que comparten mi sentir, no sabría decir cuantas, que nos preocupa la situación de Puerto Rico. No solamente la deuda que tiene en estos momentos, no solamente las condiciones provocadas por el huracán, sino toda la relación colonial de Puerto Rico y Estados Unidos, porque esa relación nos impide a nosotros a salir adelante. Las leyes de Estados Unidos que aplican a Puerto Rico, muchas veces hay algunas que favorecen, pero económicamente son leyes para favorecer a las empresas norteamericanas o estadounidenses. Y en ese caso, si es para favorecerlas a ellas, van en contra de nuestro propio desarrollo y nos mantienen en un estado de subdesarrollo… en lugar de nosotros poder avanzar. Así es que, resolver la situación colonial de Puerto Rico es, tiene urgencia. Yo no sé cómo desde aquí yo puedo continuar colaborando con los esfuerzos de descolonización, pero es uno de los retos que yo tengo al estar aquí, y que comparten otros puertorriqueños que igual que yo estamos en Estados Unidos. Y creo que es bien importante hablar de esto porque como decíamos informalmente antes de comenzar que bueno, hemos recibido mucho, bueno, es maravilloso el apoyo que hemos recibido de Estados Unidos, de la población, verdad, porque… hoy leí antes de salir para acá que FEMA envió lo que llamamos comida chatarra… comida que no sirve, chips, candy, verdad… este, cosas que, que no eran nutritivas a Puerto Rico, que bueno nos mantenía, nos quitaba el hambre pero no nos mantenía alimentados en esos días… pero la población estadounidense, yo creo que en términos generales ha sido muy solidaria y lo agradecemos. Pero, en el proceso han adoptado también unas defensas de que Estados Unidos debe de tratar a los puertorriqueños de una manera igualitaria por ser ciudadanos y esa manera igualitaria incluyen para muchas personas convertirnos en Estado. Están bajo la creencia que todos los puertorriqueños desean que Puerto Rico sea estado y eso no es así. No, no queremos perder la amistad con Estados Unidos, pero nos gusta, a muchos nos gustaría tener soberanía y control sobre nuestros propios asuntos y sobre nuestro propio futuro.
AG: Okay. Entonces, muchísimas gracias por todo
VM: Gracias tu, por la oportunidad de decir todo esto.
AG: ¡Si!
[1:01:13] VM Y AG: [Se ríen]
[END OF INTERVIEW]
TRANSCRITO POR: LAURA DUQUE
8 DE NOVIEMBRE DEL 2018
Edited by: Marisa Carlton on June 6, 2019
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Es: Resumen
Esta entrevista fue llevada a cabo por Alexandra Graham con la entrevistada Dra. Vicky Muñiz Quiñones. Durante la entrevista, Dra. Muñiz Quiñones nos cuenta sobre su historia en la educación como estudiante y después como profesora. También relata una historia breve sobre la migración desde Puerto Rico hasta los Estados Unidos contiguos, aunque no considere Puerto Rico como parte de los Estados Unidos. Ella explica por qué cree esto y después nos da un relato sobre la razón por la cual muchos puertorriqueños se están mudando a Carolina del Norte, lo cual ahora es el estado con la población duodécima más grande de puertorriqueños en los Estados Unidos. Dra. Muñiz Quiñones nos cuenta un poco sobre su propia historia de migración después de Huracán María en 2017. Ella describe las dificultades de dejar a sus amigos y colegas en la Universidad de Puerto Rico y mudarse a Carolina del Norte. Ella nos dice como se sentía desorientada pero lentamente empezó a recuperar su independencia después de unos meses. La entrevista duró un poquito más de una hora. Tomó lugar en una sala de conferencias en el FedEx Global Education Center en el campus de UNC-Chapel Hill. La entrevista era tranquila y no había interrupciones. La entrevista cubre temas emocionales a veces. Dra. Vicky Muñiz Quiñones nació en San Juan, Puerto Rico. Trabajó por 25 años en la Universidad de Puerto Rico donde era profesora y decana de estudios generales. Dra. Muñiz ganó su doctorado en la Universidad de Syracuse en Urban Social Geography. La entrevistadora, Alexandra Graham, es una estudiante graduada en UNC. Ella está trabajando en su maestría en la enseñanza con una especialidad en la educación primaria y la enseñanza de inglés como segundo idioma. Ella se graduó de UNC en mayo 2018 con un título en la Lingüística Hispana y otro título en la Economía. El español es su segundo idioma.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Vicky Muñiz Quiñones, 12 octubre 2018, R-0989, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-0989 -- Quiñones, Vicky Muñiz.
Description
An account of the resource
This interview was conducted in Spanish by interviewer Alexandra Graham with interviewee Dr. Vicky Muñiz Quiñones. Throughout the interview, Dr. Muñiz Quiñones tells us about her history in education as a student and then as a professor. She also recounts to us a brief history of migration from Puerto Rico to the contiguous United States, although she does not consider Puerto Rico to be part of the United States. She explains why she believes this and then gives us an account of why many Puerto Ricans are moving to North Carolina, which is now the state with the twelfth largest Puerto Rican population. Dr. Muñiz Quiñones then gives us a brief account of her personal migration story from Puerto Rico after Hurricane Maria in 2017. She describes the difficulties of leaving behind her friends and colleagues at the University of Puerto Rico and moving to North Carolina. She tells us about how she initially felt disoriented but slowly began regaining a sense of independence after several months.Dr. Vicky Muñiz Quiñones was born in San Juan, Puerto Rico and relocated to North Carolina in 2017. She worked for 25 years at the University of Puerto Rico where she was a professor and Dean of General Studies. Dr. Muñiz Quiñones earned her doctorate in Urban Social Geography at Syracuse University.
The interviewer, Alexandra Graham, is a graduate student at UNC. She is working on her Master of Arts in Teaching with a specialty in Elementary Education and teaching English as a Second Language (ESL). She recently graduated from UNC with a degree in Hispanic Linguistics and a second major in Economics. Spanish is her second language.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-10-12
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/28576">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
R0989_Audio.mp3
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/448bc2d545f746e052fa289a2249b8f3.mp3
3f5a2b1582032211340792ad17e2178d
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/4a6ee52977af40422120bc88c1ef4e2f.pdf
4b089f7c77570c7acde44a53fd3a4398
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0899
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
2018-04-02
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Carrillo, Juan.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Professors
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Male
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Los Angeles -- California -- United States
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Chapel Hill -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Bruce, Danielle.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
The interviewee, Juan Carrillo, is a professor in the School of Education at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He was born to Mexican immigrants in Los Angeles, California. He grew up in Los Angeles, then moved to Phoenix, Arizona, then Austin, TX, and then finally to Chapel Hill, North Carolina. He received a PhD from the University of Texas at Austin. He studies the effect that American schools have on Mexican American students. The interview covers several different topics, from comparing Dual Language schools in the southwest to schools in Chapel Hill, to the history behind Dual Language schools, to the importance of maintaining one’s language and culture. Carrillo also discusses his life history and how it relates to Dual Language education.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Juan Carrillo by Danielle Bruce, 02 April 2018, R-0899, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/27569
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Culture; Language and Communication; Identity; Education; Integration and Segregation
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Danielle Bruce: Alright, my name is Danielle Bruce. I am interviewing Juan Carrillo for an interview for Global 382, Latin American migrant perspectives. It is Monday, April 2, 2018 and I am in his office in Peabody Hall on the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill’s campus. Today we are going to be talking about Dual Language programs in Chapel Hill. So my first question for you is a little bit about you –
Juan Carrillo: Mm
DB: —What in your life history led you to having an interest in Dual Language?
JC: Thank you for the opportunity to be interviewed for this. What connections in my life history have gotten me interested in this…Well, couple of things, I would say. One is my personal background. Son of Mexican immigrants that were mainly Spanish speakers. Learning the Spanish language at home and then entering, I guess, public schools in Los Angeles, where the majority of the student population were bilingual students, but we didn’t have a robust bilingual program where I attended school, or a robust Dual Language program. Really what we had was kind of a more subtractive ESL type of program. Not all ESL programs are necessarily subtractive but the one I was part of was basically…I do remember that I was labelled in some way or another as being “gifted” because I was told that my mastery of the English language came quickly and I was told that I had no longer needed to speak Spanish in the public domain. In this specific case, in school. I was no longer going to get any kind of Spanish instruction very early on. I remember being celebrated for that.
DB: Mm
JC: Being told, wow, you’re so smart, you’re in the highest level English reading group and you get to go to that special class. Only until I got into, I guess, the research side of what happened did I realize what an unfortunate – in such a diverse city with such a rich, historical history around Mexican-Americans and Chicanos – what an unfortunate reality that I had gone through where I didn’t really get to center at an early age bilingualism as an asset. It was more of you got pulled into the dominant language within a narrative that the other side of you is no longer necessary beyond the conversations you have with your parents at home. That is where you need to keep it. It was kind of a violent thing. It was kind of a violent thing and it was kind of like a microcosm of all the things that happened later for me where my identity and all its complexity was often times – not all the time, but often times – not really centered or valued or promoted in any way. I had to do a lot of independent studies to really figure that out. The other end is when I ended up deciding to pursue my doctorate at the University of Texas at Austin, while my concentration was not language education at any level, I did take coursework in it. I was around many people who were doing work around language education. I took courses, I met people, I got involved in some projects and then, to this day I’m very aware of the tensions around language education. I guess the personal, the connections to research on Dual Language, the connections to the historical context of bilingual education for Mexican Americans, it’s something I’ve been linked to since I was in graduate school. It allowed me to have a window with Windex, I guess, to my original story. It allowed me to give a clear assessment of what happened to me and what happens to many other young people.
DB: So you specifically didn’t go to a Dual Language school?
JC: I didn’t get that chance.
DB: Were there schools in the area for –
JC: I think there were.
DB: Okay.
JC. Yeah, I think there were. I just attended the schools that were by my apartment complex.
DB: Okay
JC: My mother said wherever the rent is cheap you’re going to school. Down the block. None of the schools that I attended had any – I didn’t even know what bilingual, Dual Language education was.
DB: It is pretty new.
JC: I mean, yeah, I was a kid.
DB: Yeah.
JC. I was a kid and there was stuff near there but I was not given access to those spaces.
DB: Mm. You said you didn’t know much when you were a kid but what do you know now about Dual Language programs, both administrative and classroom levels and what do you think?
JC: What do I think? Well, the way I look at it now through my research lens and through my on the ground lens, my children attend Dual Language schools. I see it as a parent, I see it as an advocate/activist, I see the issues as a researcher. What I really look at when I think about Dual Language is one of the core issues around the neoliberal project to use Dual language education as a way to assert more privilege to the group that is already in power. In many spaces where Dual Language was rooted in the Civil Rights legacy, the issues of community gentrification and the gentrification of Dual Language programming has removed in some spaces Duals Language from its mission of not just being a language program but an identity program that develops pride, that develops a historical connection to the historical self and develops an ability to name the world and name in a critical way the role of Latinos and Chicanos in the Southwest. My experiences, because in the city of Austin for example, where I know a lot of people doing research and I’ve been connected to some projects. There is a lot of displacement of Latino communities into the periphery. While there are Dual Language programs, a lot of the voices that are heard the most tend to not be those families. They tend to be the people that are from dominant society. What happens oftentimes is that the programs take a direction that is not necessarily – not always, but oftentimes – not necessarily attuned to the ideas of the civil rights legacy of the communities that fought for it in the Southwest. It is that hope of what Dual Language can do that is exciting, not only academically but in terms of identity, that’s exciting. But there’s also a tension. I was recently in Arizona and Arizona does not allow kids, youth, to enter the Dual Language unless they pass an English assessment. A lot of the kids that are getting into these spaces are not the kids that Dual Language was kind of set up for.
DB: Right.
JC. I’ve heard, a couple of legislators are trying to pass a bill to change that, but just for what you know of Arizona, if you know anything…I’ve lived there. It has in its history, whether it’s recent or forever, has had all sorts of layers of settler colonialism where the natives are othered and policymaking has made sure that they’re othered and that they’re marginalized. Do I speak for all Arizonans? No. There’s a lot of wonderful people pushing back and doing the work of equity and justice and trying to make it “better” from this lens so this is what you believe. It’s heartbreaking, to see how that assessment exists but it’s also encouraging to see the pushback of all these people on the ground in that particular place. I’m very familiar more and more with the Arizona case, very familiar with the Austin case, the hip cool city where working class communities of black and brown people are no longer working class communities of black and brown people, yet there is a very progressive band so there is a Dual Language stuff going on, but yet who’s controlling it, who’s designing it? There’s all these interesting narratives at play in places like that. Mm.
DB: I’ve learned a lot about the Dual Language schools here in Chapel Hill recently doing these interviews with people.
JC: Mm.
DB: It’s not like you said it is in Arizona where they have to pass an English test first. Their parents just mark in the enrollment if they are a native English speaker or a native Spanish speaker and it’s a lottery program to get in. Why do you think that a place like Chapel Hill with a smaller Latino population is not as strict with what kids enter the Dual Language than in a place like Arizona?
JC: Well, there’s a lot of unfortunately unfortunate violent history on the border.
DB: Mm.
JC: There’s a lot of history of people being dispossessed of their belongings, when the Mexican American war happened, of their language, of their overall identity, of their power. It has a history of dispossession. It has a history of violence, it has a history of – not to be bleak, it’s not the only history – but there is the historical backdrop of how people happened to speak Spanish were not necessarily given access in an equitable way to what they felt was theirs. The story has continued up until this day of – in different ways – systemically and politically and policy wise. It’s not surprising to me. Here the population is newer.
DB: Yeah.
JC: Although I’ve seen somebody document Latino students in Carolina all the way to the early nineteen hundreds or late eighteen hundreds. Someone was just talking to me about that. There’s a project that’s about to be published on that. But overall, it’s not a traditional border context.
DB: Mm.
JC: The Mexican American war didn’t happen here.
DB: Right.
JC: Not to say that that’s the explanation for it or one of the only plausible possible explanations, but the history of space is very different for Carolina to that region of the country. Yeah.
DB: In comparison, you said you had an ESL program at your school, but comparing to ESL to Dual Language—
JC: Yeah.
DB: —research shows that Dual Language has been more successful and students have higher proficiency levels—
JC: Mm.
DB: —than going through an ESL program. Have you…I mean I know you don’t do research on it specifically but do you know anything about the comparison between ESL programs and Dual Language programs?
JC: Yeah. What I can speak to is, I know that one of the key components that has been argued for in some of the bilingual education research or Dual Language research is the role of a robust quality Dual Language program being able to have two things. One publication recently came out. One is addressing the cultural piece, like the cultural identity piece. The other one is addressing-this is I think super important- critical consciousness. When you have young people in an unequal society learning language within a context that is additive and affirmative, but not only just boutique multiculturalism type of an affirmative and additive, but also willing to talk about the uncomfortable and talk about the gray areas of what it means to be a Latino, for example, in US society and develop a critical consciousness for young people. I think those kind of elements can contribute to…it really connects well with the ethnic studies research, right?
DB: Mm.
JC: It really connects well with the idea that identity and agency are inseparable, right. If you promote positive self-concept, if you develop a young person’s historical self, if you “wake people up” into understanding the material realities of everyday life conditions for marginalized communities, all that can create a sense of empowerment possibly and can create also strategies for negotiating with the soul wounds that they’re going to experience by being who they are. Those elements, when incorporated into some Dual Language programs, I think are huge. Not to say that all Dual Language…some ESL programs, some ESL spaces may serve their role, too. I think that’s one key piece that I’ve seen that has helped people in Dual Language programs.
DB: So, what would you say is the difference between ESL and Dual Language?
JC: I don’t think, well, to me ESL-and I can’t speak in generalities- because they’re all different, space to space, school to school, classroom to classroom, teacher to teacher. It’s really hard to generalize –
DB: Mm.
JC: because I’ve seen ESL teachers in Durham who are amazing and who are able to created spaces for cultural affirmation and understanding the historical self, understanding how to critically engage content. I’ve seen Dual Language educators not do that. And vice versa. It’s really hard for me to cookie cutter wise—
DB: Right.
JC: —make a comparative assessment in that way. But I do know that a quality, robust Dual Language education program in a school that has good community input from parents who centers not only the language but the role of the culture and the identity, possibly critical consciousness…I think that that has a stronger weight in some ways. In my opinion. Which is something I didn’t get, right?
DB: Right.
JC: I just got a really cookie cutter ESL idea. And it’s kind of a deficit model, right. Often times, it’s not complex in its understanding of a community sometimes. Yeah.
DB: Cool. [long pause] Right. Students that English is not their first language, whether they’re native Spanish speakers, native Chinese speakers, whatever you have in the community, research and literature shows that Dual Language, the Dual Language program is better at helping them learn English than a traditional ESL program.
JC: Mm.
DB: Do you know much about how a Dual Language program would help students learn English more than a traditional ESL program would?
JC: What I do know is that those measurements, they don’t happen right away. It takes times. It takes time to actually reach that level of effectiveness for Dual Lanugage schools. I do know too that, from terms of the research I do, I think I just said it, that one of the reasons that’s possibly the case is because academic achievement and identity in so many ways are linked. If you have a good strong Dual Language program in El Paso, Texas or Austin, Texas or in Raleigh, North Carolina – wherever there’s a strong one, the intersections of identity and academic achievement. There’s a possible connection there. There’s some research to back that up, right. That’s kind of the lens I see it through.
DB: Do you think that a Dual Language program taught here should be taught differently than in Texas or Arizona or something depending on the community that the school is in?
JC: I think that’s there’s things you can learn from all spaces. Especially from people or spaces that have a long history of effective Dual Language programs. But I think you should always sin any kind of pedagogical reality, make it context specific too. Because whether it’s at the level of social class, migration, race, gender, whatever the intersectionality elements are, and whatever the population is in terms of your teaching force, there’s’ all these nuances of the space that I think require you to monitor and adjust to that as well. But there are also some basic core tenants that I’m sure folk here can learn
DB: Mm
JC: from other spaces. Yeah.
DB: Have you seen any research anywhere about…so students in an elementary level Dual Language school have higher proficiency levels than students in traditional monolingual schools but have you seen anything about their proficiency rising and climbing in middle school and high school? Do they still do better than the monolingual kids?
JC: Yeah. I’ve seen, I think I just saw a Stanford study. I could be wrong but I think I just saw a Stanford study that showed that by middle school you see the growth on the Dual Language side.
DB: Right
JC: Yeah, yeah. There’s some work out there but I think the one I recently saw was Stanford discussing that exact reality.
DB: Yeah.
JC: I’m pretty sure I’m right about that.
DB: Yeah, Dual Language is like, so new that…I was talking to a principal here and she said there’s just no resources available for Dual Langauge yet because it’s just not a program that’s really anywhere –
JC: Well it’s new here.
DB: It’s new here.
JC: It’s not new in other spaces.
DB: Okay, so where has it been around for a while?
JC: DC, Miami, Texas…California has been in and out based on issues it’s had with English only movements and policy. There’s been this – I would not agree with that. There’s been other spaces where there’s a legacy of advocacy because in the Southwest so much of it comes from the Chicano movement.
DB: Right.
JC: They had bilingual education in Crystal City in the 60s or 70s or whatever. So that’s not five hundred years before Christ but it’s a good run. It’s a good run. There are spaces that have been doing this for a while and I think North Carolina’s just an interesting place because a lot of the research and scholarship and ideas that come from places that have done the ground work sometimes comes this way and sometimes it’s not necessarily tapped into. It just depends on who’s doing the program design. There is a rich history in other spaces.
DB: Could you talk about that history a little bit? How the Dual Language program got started, maybe through the Chicano Movement?
JC: Yeah, in Crystal City, Gutierrez I believe was his last name, you know they were frustrated in south Texas because a lot of the Mexican American Chicanos out there, they were living in really kind of like colonial conditions where you would have majority Mexican community members and the power structure was not representative of them. That was frustrating. Secondly, there was no political power for the community that was the majority in a lot of these Mexican towns in South Texas. Secondly, kids were getting beat up for speaking the Spanish language. They still are being told in many places, you know go back to your country, Spanish is the language of the home don’t speak it in the school.
Back then, kids were getting hit or beat up for speaking the language and they had no political representation and their history and their culture, both their indigenous roots and this idea of not having to assimilate to a dominant notion of what it means to be an American was also at play and this idea of paternalism, this constant narrative around helping the poor savage other and having them become the dominant group and not having an actual negotiation. People began to tap into the folklore and the history and the culture and the precious knowledge of the community and their historical legacy and people, young people, older people started uniting and creating political parties like La Raza Unida Part and starting campaigns in the local communities where people decided to implement, in the case, what’s his name, Gutierrez, where he, he was part of a power structure that put in some bilingual education in those communities and I think that fervor and that desire to tap into the community knowledge and the community memory and the beautiful, what we call conocimientos, of our grandpas and our grandpas and that beautiful oral tradition that we have that isn’t valued sometimes in public schools. It was like an assertiveness around bringing it to the center and making it part of a conversation with very- not contradictory- but with very mixed results. It’s like with any struggle of a community that historically is marginalized one way or another, it’s an ongoing effort that there’s just nothing cul de sac about it, you never get to the cul de sac. It’s like the idea of the battle in motion for perpetuity. Those people, some of them are still alive, they started something, they started an energy. They started a commitment, they started an articulation of a political project about the beauty of what we are. That’s why I just got back from Mexico City and it just when I was there looking at pyramids as romantic as it may sound, or esoteric, it just reminded the Chicano Movement. We wanted to know why our teachers weren’t telling us nothing about this. We wanted to know how we could write our own ( ). That’s why I write. It’s not just because I want to get tenure but because I want to tell it through my lens.
DB: Right.
JC: I grew up going to school being told someone else’s story for the most part and there was, as good as it was incomplete. I was like you know what I’m going to take up that project and maybe it won’t have much of an impact but I’ll do what I can. I think that, when I think of language and Dual Language, I think it’s because it exists in the “real world” and it’s all the real world, there’s always going to be competing interests.
DB: Mm.
JC: about what Dual Language can be and what it should be. There’s always competing measures about what is effective and wants not effective. Personally, I think that the metrics around standardized testing to decide whether or not it’s effective, even that can be problematic.
DB: Yeah.
JC: We could reorganize the question and really begin to consider how do we redefine success for young people learning multiple languages within the context of their everyday realities. How do we make things, humanize thing enough, create a humanizing pedagogy around DL that is critical, that is community-centric, and that has multiple entry and exit points for young people to excel within the confines of both their everyday things that are beautiful but are also within the confines of the everyday things that are hurtful or hard or having to work til five in the morning or whatever. I think even the questions that we ask I think that’s part of the Chicano legacy .Even the questions we ask should be bounded within the idea that there often coming from a particular narrative that favors the particular community. Not until we decide to debunk those things or re-conceptualize or reimagine, then not until we do that do we really get an understanding of Dual Language, in this case, since that’s the topic. Dual Language or language education is really truly being not just about achievement because of a standardized test score but being emancipatory and being something that helps people not only get good careers or get into Carolina but to have such a strong strong sense of who they are, why they’re here, and what their mission is in life beyond being part of a program that gets them to excel in two languages. Right?
DB: Right.
JC: There’s so much literature and scholarship that’s coming out that’s debunking the idea of two languages—
DB: Really?
JC: —and translanguaging and the hybridity of language and you’re born and then you’re a child and you’re playing with different languages at an early age, are you really an English Language Learner or are you already bilingual or multilingual. You might be all sorts of –lingual from a very early age.
DB: Right.
JC: But the current metrics, they’re bounded by bureaucracies and by certain norms and standards that fulfill a particular idea about language mastery and not only language mastery but also what counts as a quality program. So I think it’s kind of messy. I think it’s kind of messy but I support it, but I support it. I support the journey to create effective Dual Language programs and I support the idea being involved in them and trying to make them better in communities. My children attend them, I didn’t have a chance to attend them. I’m a big advocate of them and it’s always…it’s always something that’s near me because of family, because of personal, my own individual journey and connection, and because a lot of the people that I work with, that’s the area that they do research on. I’m actually writing an article about some of this that we’re talking about and what I’m trying to coin is what it means to be an English Language Learner that…what it means to design a Dual Language program where we provide opportunities for the just “learner” to understand how he or she is being framed and to understand how to resist possibilities of deficit narratives within their experience, like how you do that. How do you design a curriculum that does that or how do you conceptually encourage that kind of identity at a young age for a young person that is going to start the project of being called an ELL because it can have devastating consequences. I think my sister was in an ESL program in the back back back back back back back building for years and she hated it. She said it was very ineffective and not very additive for her. So yeah.
DB: Okay. I’ll ask one final question. In a perfect world, Dual Language would be about maintaining culture for native Spanish speakers it would be about maintaining your language and through your language your culture. So could you just speak a little bit…your perspective on the importance of maintaining your language and your culture in America?
JC: Yeah, well for me personally, that’s a great question, [long pause] I think I mentioned in our class that not until I got into my – well, there were cases earlier but I would say for the most part - not until I went to a student union at Arizona State University and decided to not graduate on time because I didn’t know anything about myself. I stopped my graduation clock and I was really frustrated and that’s why I transferred to like eight universities. Some of them were considered top five and I thought they were weak universities and I kept telling myself why do they come across to me as weak? It’s probably my fault, not getting into the right program, but maybe not. I thought, well the problem I’m having with these universities is that I don’t know anything about myself. So here I am at Arizona State, and I thought I’m not going graduate with a degree without knowing who I am. As the story unfolds, I found a class about the history of Chicanos or something and I took it. In that class, it just changed…it’s almost like the thoughts I had in the back of my mind were finally legitimized. There was a bunch of people that I’ve never met who believed the things that I believed in, who said things that I had thought about but no one had ever brought them up in a very public, formal way. I thought, wow, so I was not crazy. These things that I had in the back of my mind were real and there’s a group of people that agree with this and they’re writing about it and they exist in the world.
When I found that scholarship and that literature and that music and the theories and that community, my massive thirst for knowledge got accelerated [made an upward motion with his hand and a noise imitating ascension]. Reading twenty books every three days, it was like [same noise, repeated three times], it was exaggerated because I realized that so much of my life was about – based on educators that I had – not all was about escaping away from myself to become like them. Here was a whole world that was saying you don’t need to escape yourself, you are great, you are beautiful, you are knowledgeable, your community matters, and all this. I think that beauty and I think that link that I had to seeing the mirror of what my history tells me was game-changing and it was heartbreaking at first because it took so darn long. I was like, wow, why’d it take so long. At the same time I think it was something that I shared when I became a high school teacher. I made sure that, I tried to use that approach of encouraging not just that content mastery but encouraging that positive identity construction in equity or in academic instruction so that those two worlds would merge in a way that was not shallow and was not hollow because the pain of the winner can be just as bad as the pain of the one that doesn’t have success.
That’s something that I write about, the pain of the winner, but the scholarship or research that I do because sometimes you’re acknowledging the hollowness and the process and you’re trying to find ways to get your intent, let’s reconnect to the past, because you realize that it had things that you maybe could have just stayed with and didn’t’ have to necessarily take on the journey you took on. Or if you did take the journey and there’s beautiful things about it you want to find out ways that you can stay connected to whatever that was. You feel like a sense of exile constantly or a sense of trespassing or a sense of refugee status, you’re kind of playing with those thoughts and those emotions. But I think they’re good emotions because it creates a process of humility and a process of reflexivity and vulnerability. It allows, I think, for people to understand, how to not become [long pause] adapters to the cog in the overall wheel in ways that perpetuate inequalities. Remembering helps dismember the present constantly. Remembering, dismembering, remembering, dismembering. Yeah, so, I don’t know, for me it’s always been about that and I’m always around my community whether it’s at the work level or at the where I decide to live level or whether it’s visiting Mexico constantly. I’m always immersed because I’m not running away. I’m running in as much as possible. It keeps me grounded and it keeps me hopeful and it keeps me nuanced about what I think I can do to contribute. It keeps giving me info. Yeah. I use it all the time. Makes me feel whole.
DB: Awesome. Well, thank you, thank you so much for doing this interview for me.
JC: Yeah. You’re welcome. No, this was awesome.
END OF RECORDING
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Profesores
Es: Género de entrevistado
Hombre
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
El entrevistado, Juan Carrillo, es un profesor en la Escuela de Educación a la Universidad de Carolina del Norte a Chapel Hill. Nací a migrantes de México en Los Ángeles, California. Creció en Los Ángeles, después se movió a Phoenix, Arizona, después Austin, TX, y finalmente a Chapel Hill, Carolina del Norte. Recibió un PhD de la universidad de Texas a Austin. Estudia el efecto de las escuelas estadounidenses en los estudiantes mexicano-americanos. La entrevista cubre varios temas diferentes, como una comparación de las programas de Lenguaje Dual en las escuelas en el suroeste y las escuelas estadounidenses, como la historia debajo de las escuelas de Lenguaje Dual, como la importancia para mantener su lenguaje y cultura. Carrillo también discute su historia de vida y como su vida se relaciona a educación de Lenguaje Dual.
Es: Temas
Cultura; Lenguaje y comunicación; Identidad; Educación; Integración y segregación
Es: Transcripción
Danielle Bruce: Alright, my name is Danielle Bruce. I am interviewing Juan Carrillo for an interview for Global 382, Latin American migrant perspectives. It is Monday, April 2, 2018 and I am in his office in Peabody Hall on the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill’s campus. Today we are going to be talking about Dual Language programs in Chapel Hill. So my first question for you is a little bit about you –
Juan Carrillo: Mm
DB: —What in your life history led you to having an interest in Dual Language?
JC: Thank you for the opportunity to be interviewed for this. What connections in my life history have gotten me interested in this…Well, couple of things, I would say. One is my personal background. Son of Mexican immigrants that were mainly Spanish speakers. Learning the Spanish language at home and then entering, I guess, public schools in Los Angeles, where the majority of the student population were bilingual students, but we didn’t have a robust bilingual program where I attended school, or a robust Dual Language program. Really what we had was kind of a more subtractive ESL type of program. Not all ESL programs are necessarily subtractive but the one I was part of was basically…I do remember that I was labelled in some way or another as being “gifted” because I was told that my mastery of the English language came quickly and I was told that I had no longer needed to speak Spanish in the public domain. In this specific case, in school. I was no longer going to get any kind of Spanish instruction very early on. I remember being celebrated for that.
DB: Mm
JC: Being told, wow, you’re so smart, you’re in the highest level English reading group and you get to go to that special class. Only until I got into, I guess, the research side of what happened did I realize what an unfortunate – in such a diverse city with such a rich, historical history around Mexican-Americans and Chicanos – what an unfortunate reality that I had gone through where I didn’t really get to center at an early age bilingualism as an asset. It was more of you got pulled into the dominant language within a narrative that the other side of you is no longer necessary beyond the conversations you have with your parents at home. That is where you need to keep it. It was kind of a violent thing. It was kind of a violent thing and it was kind of like a microcosm of all the things that happened later for me where my identity and all its complexity was often times – not all the time, but often times – not really centered or valued or promoted in any way. I had to do a lot of independent studies to really figure that out. The other end is when I ended up deciding to pursue my doctorate at the University of Texas at Austin, while my concentration was not language education at any level, I did take coursework in it. I was around many people who were doing work around language education. I took courses, I met people, I got involved in some projects and then, to this day I’m very aware of the tensions around language education. I guess the personal, the connections to research on Dual Language, the connections to the historical context of bilingual education for Mexican Americans, it’s something I’ve been linked to since I was in graduate school. It allowed me to have a window with Windex, I guess, to my original story. It allowed me to give a clear assessment of what happened to me and what happens to many other young people.
DB: So you specifically didn’t go to a Dual Language school?
JC: I didn’t get that chance.
DB: Were there schools in the area for –
JC: I think there were.
DB: Okay.
JC. Yeah, I think there were. I just attended the schools that were by my apartment complex.
DB: Okay
JC: My mother said wherever the rent is cheap you’re going to school. Down the block. None of the schools that I attended had any – I didn’t even know what bilingual, Dual Language education was.
DB: It is pretty new.
JC: I mean, yeah, I was a kid.
DB: Yeah.
JC. I was a kid and there was stuff near there but I was not given access to those spaces.
DB: Mm. You said you didn’t know much when you were a kid but what do you know now about Dual Language programs, both administrative and classroom levels and what do you think?
JC: What do I think? Well, the way I look at it now through my research lens and through my on the ground lens, my children attend Dual Language schools. I see it as a parent, I see it as an advocate/activist, I see the issues as a researcher. What I really look at when I think about Dual Language is one of the core issues around the neoliberal project to use Dual language education as a way to assert more privilege to the group that is already in power. In many spaces where Dual Language was rooted in the Civil Rights legacy, the issues of community gentrification and the gentrification of Dual Language programming has removed in some spaces Duals Language from its mission of not just being a language program but an identity program that develops pride, that develops a historical connection to the historical self and develops an ability to name the world and name in a critical way the role of Latinos and Chicanos in the Southwest. My experiences, because in the city of Austin for example, where I know a lot of people doing research and I’ve been connected to some projects. There is a lot of displacement of Latino communities into the periphery. While there are Dual Language programs, a lot of the voices that are heard the most tend to not be those families. They tend to be the people that are from dominant society. What happens oftentimes is that the programs take a direction that is not necessarily – not always, but oftentimes – not necessarily attuned to the ideas of the civil rights legacy of the communities that fought for it in the Southwest. It is that hope of what Dual Language can do that is exciting, not only academically but in terms of identity, that’s exciting. But there’s also a tension. I was recently in Arizona and Arizona does not allow kids, youth, to enter the Dual Language unless they pass an English assessment. A lot of the kids that are getting into these spaces are not the kids that Dual Language was kind of set up for.
DB: Right.
JC. I’ve heard, a couple of legislators are trying to pass a bill to change that, but just for what you know of Arizona, if you know anything…I’ve lived there. It has in its history, whether it’s recent or forever, has had all sorts of layers of settler colonialism where the natives are othered and policymaking has made sure that they’re othered and that they’re marginalized. Do I speak for all Arizonans? No. There’s a lot of wonderful people pushing back and doing the work of equity and justice and trying to make it “better” from this lens so this is what you believe. It’s heartbreaking, to see how that assessment exists but it’s also encouraging to see the pushback of all these people on the ground in that particular place. I’m very familiar more and more with the Arizona case, very familiar with the Austin case, the hip cool city where working class communities of black and brown people are no longer working class communities of black and brown people, yet there is a very progressive band so there is a Dual Language stuff going on, but yet who’s controlling it, who’s designing it? There’s all these interesting narratives at play in places like that. Mm.
DB: I’ve learned a lot about the Dual Language schools here in Chapel Hill recently doing these interviews with people.
JC: Mm.
DB: It’s not like you said it is in Arizona where they have to pass an English test first. Their parents just mark in the enrollment if they are a native English speaker or a native Spanish speaker and it’s a lottery program to get in. Why do you think that a place like Chapel Hill with a smaller Latino population is not as strict with what kids enter the Dual Language than in a place like Arizona?
JC: Well, there’s a lot of unfortunately unfortunate violent history on the border.
DB: Mm.
JC: There’s a lot of history of people being dispossessed of their belongings, when the Mexican American war happened, of their language, of their overall identity, of their power. It has a history of dispossession. It has a history of violence, it has a history of – not to be bleak, it’s not the only history – but there is the historical backdrop of how people happened to speak Spanish were not necessarily given access in an equitable way to what they felt was theirs. The story has continued up until this day of – in different ways – systemically and politically and policy wise. It’s not surprising to me. Here the population is newer.
DB: Yeah.
JC: Although I’ve seen somebody document Latino students in Carolina all the way to the early nineteen hundreds or late eighteen hundreds. Someone was just talking to me about that. There’s a project that’s about to be published on that. But overall, it’s not a traditional border context.
DB: Mm.
JC: The Mexican American war didn’t happen here.
DB: Right.
JC: Not to say that that’s the explanation for it or one of the only plausible possible explanations, but the history of space is very different for Carolina to that region of the country. Yeah.
DB: In comparison, you said you had an ESL program at your school, but comparing to ESL to Dual Language—
JC: Yeah.
DB: —research shows that Dual Language has been more successful and students have higher proficiency levels—
JC: Mm.
DB: —than going through an ESL program. Have you…I mean I know you don’t do research on it specifically but do you know anything about the comparison between ESL programs and Dual Language programs?
JC: Yeah. What I can speak to is, I know that one of the key components that has been argued for in some of the bilingual education research or Dual Language research is the role of a robust quality Dual Language program being able to have two things. One publication recently came out. One is addressing the cultural piece, like the cultural identity piece. The other one is addressing-this is I think super important- critical consciousness. When you have young people in an unequal society learning language within a context that is additive and affirmative, but not only just boutique multiculturalism type of an affirmative and additive, but also willing to talk about the uncomfortable and talk about the gray areas of what it means to be a Latino, for example, in US society and develop a critical consciousness for young people. I think those kind of elements can contribute to…it really connects well with the ethnic studies research, right?
DB: Mm.
JC: It really connects well with the idea that identity and agency are inseparable, right. If you promote positive self-concept, if you develop a young person’s historical self, if you “wake people up” into understanding the material realities of everyday life conditions for marginalized communities, all that can create a sense of empowerment possibly and can create also strategies for negotiating with the soul wounds that they’re going to experience by being who they are. Those elements, when incorporated into some Dual Language programs, I think are huge. Not to say that all Dual Language…some ESL programs, some ESL spaces may serve their role, too. I think that’s one key piece that I’ve seen that has helped people in Dual Language programs.
DB: So, what would you say is the difference between ESL and Dual Language?
JC: I don’t think, well, to me ESL-and I can’t speak in generalities- because they’re all different, space to space, school to school, classroom to classroom, teacher to teacher. It’s really hard to generalize –
DB: Mm.
JC: because I’ve seen ESL teachers in Durham who are amazing and who are able to created spaces for cultural affirmation and understanding the historical self, understanding how to critically engage content. I’ve seen Dual Language educators not do that. And vice versa. It’s really hard for me to cookie cutter wise—
DB: Right.
JC: —make a comparative assessment in that way. But I do know that a quality, robust Dual Language education program in a school that has good community input from parents who centers not only the language but the role of the culture and the identity, possibly critical consciousness…I think that that has a stronger weight in some ways. In my opinion. Which is something I didn’t get, right?
DB: Right.
JC: I just got a really cookie cutter ESL idea. And it’s kind of a deficit model, right. Often times, it’s not complex in its understanding of a community sometimes. Yeah.
DB: Cool. [long pause] Right. Students that English is not their first language, whether they’re native Spanish speakers, native Chinese speakers, whatever you have in the community, research and literature shows that Dual Language, the Dual Language program is better at helping them learn English than a traditional ESL program.
JC: Mm.
DB: Do you know much about how a Dual Language program would help students learn English more than a traditional ESL program would?
JC: What I do know is that those measurements, they don’t happen right away. It takes times. It takes time to actually reach that level of effectiveness for Dual Lanugage schools. I do know too that, from terms of the research I do, I think I just said it, that one of the reasons that’s possibly the case is because academic achievement and identity in so many ways are linked. If you have a good strong Dual Language program in El Paso, Texas or Austin, Texas or in Raleigh, North Carolina – wherever there’s a strong one, the intersections of identity and academic achievement. There’s a possible connection there. There’s some research to back that up, right. That’s kind of the lens I see it through.
DB: Do you think that a Dual Language program taught here should be taught differently than in Texas or Arizona or something depending on the community that the school is in?
JC: I think that’s there’s things you can learn from all spaces. Especially from people or spaces that have a long history of effective Dual Language programs. But I think you should always sin any kind of pedagogical reality, make it context specific too. Because whether it’s at the level of social class, migration, race, gender, whatever the intersectionality elements are, and whatever the population is in terms of your teaching force, there’s’ all these nuances of the space that I think require you to monitor and adjust to that as well. But there are also some basic core tenants that I’m sure folk here can learn
DB: Mm
JC: from other spaces. Yeah.
DB: Have you seen any research anywhere about…so students in an elementary level Dual Language school have higher proficiency levels than students in traditional monolingual schools but have you seen anything about their proficiency rising and climbing in middle school and high school? Do they still do better than the monolingual kids?
JC: Yeah. I’ve seen, I think I just saw a Stanford study. I could be wrong but I think I just saw a Stanford study that showed that by middle school you see the growth on the Dual Language side.
DB: Right
JC: Yeah, yeah. There’s some work out there but I think the one I recently saw was Stanford discussing that exact reality.
DB: Yeah.
JC: I’m pretty sure I’m right about that.
DB: Yeah, Dual Language is like, so new that…I was talking to a principal here and she said there’s just no resources available for Dual Langauge yet because it’s just not a program that’s really anywhere –
JC: Well it’s new here.
DB: It’s new here.
JC: It’s not new in other spaces.
DB: Okay, so where has it been around for a while?
JC: DC, Miami, Texas…California has been in and out based on issues it’s had with English only movements and policy. There’s been this – I would not agree with that. There’s been other spaces where there’s a legacy of advocacy because in the Southwest so much of it comes from the Chicano movement.
DB: Right.
JC: They had bilingual education in Crystal City in the 60s or 70s or whatever. So that’s not five hundred years before Christ but it’s a good run. It’s a good run. There are spaces that have been doing this for a while and I think North Carolina’s just an interesting place because a lot of the research and scholarship and ideas that come from places that have done the ground work sometimes comes this way and sometimes it’s not necessarily tapped into. It just depends on who’s doing the program design. There is a rich history in other spaces.
DB: Could you talk about that history a little bit? How the Dual Language program got started, maybe through the Chicano Movement?
JC: Yeah, in Crystal City, Gutierrez I believe was his last name, you know they were frustrated in south Texas because a lot of the Mexican American Chicanos out there, they were living in really kind of like colonial conditions where you would have majority Mexican community members and the power structure was not representative of them. That was frustrating. Secondly, there was no political power for the community that was the majority in a lot of these Mexican towns in South Texas. Secondly, kids were getting beat up for speaking the Spanish language. They still are being told in many places, you know go back to your country, Spanish is the language of the home don’t speak it in the school.
Back then, kids were getting hit or beat up for speaking the language and they had no political representation and their history and their culture, both their indigenous roots and this idea of not having to assimilate to a dominant notion of what it means to be an American was also at play and this idea of paternalism, this constant narrative around helping the poor savage other and having them become the dominant group and not having an actual negotiation. People began to tap into the folklore and the history and the culture and the precious knowledge of the community and their historical legacy and people, young people, older people started uniting and creating political parties like La Raza Unida Part and starting campaigns in the local communities where people decided to implement, in the case, what’s his name, Gutierrez, where he, he was part of a power structure that put in some bilingual education in those communities and I think that fervor and that desire to tap into the community knowledge and the community memory and the beautiful, what we call conocimientos, of our grandpas and our grandpas and that beautiful oral tradition that we have that isn’t valued sometimes in public schools. It was like an assertiveness around bringing it to the center and making it part of a conversation with very- not contradictory- but with very mixed results. It’s like with any struggle of a community that historically is marginalized one way or another, it’s an ongoing effort that there’s just nothing cul de sac about it, you never get to the cul de sac. It’s like the idea of the battle in motion for perpetuity. Those people, some of them are still alive, they started something, they started an energy. They started a commitment, they started an articulation of a political project about the beauty of what we are. That’s why I just got back from Mexico City and it just when I was there looking at pyramids as romantic as it may sound, or esoteric, it just reminded the Chicano Movement. We wanted to know why our teachers weren’t telling us nothing about this. We wanted to know how we could write our own ( ). That’s why I write. It’s not just because I want to get tenure but because I want to tell it through my lens.
DB: Right.
JC: I grew up going to school being told someone else’s story for the most part and there was, as good as it was incomplete. I was like you know what I’m going to take up that project and maybe it won’t have much of an impact but I’ll do what I can. I think that, when I think of language and Dual Language, I think it’s because it exists in the “real world” and it’s all the real world, there’s always going to be competing interests.
DB: Mm.
JC: about what Dual Language can be and what it should be. There’s always competing measures about what is effective and wants not effective. Personally, I think that the metrics around standardized testing to decide whether or not it’s effective, even that can be problematic.
DB: Yeah.
JC: We could reorganize the question and really begin to consider how do we redefine success for young people learning multiple languages within the context of their everyday realities. How do we make things, humanize thing enough, create a humanizing pedagogy around DL that is critical, that is community-centric, and that has multiple entry and exit points for young people to excel within the confines of both their everyday things that are beautiful but are also within the confines of the everyday things that are hurtful or hard or having to work til five in the morning or whatever. I think even the questions that we ask I think that’s part of the Chicano legacy .Even the questions we ask should be bounded within the idea that there often coming from a particular narrative that favors the particular community. Not until we decide to debunk those things or re-conceptualize or reimagine, then not until we do that do we really get an understanding of Dual Language, in this case, since that’s the topic. Dual Language or language education is really truly being not just about achievement because of a standardized test score but being emancipatory and being something that helps people not only get good careers or get into Carolina but to have such a strong strong sense of who they are, why they’re here, and what their mission is in life beyond being part of a program that gets them to excel in two languages. Right?
DB: Right.
JC: There’s so much literature and scholarship that’s coming out that’s debunking the idea of two languages—
DB: Really?
JC: —and translanguaging and the hybridity of language and you’re born and then you’re a child and you’re playing with different languages at an early age, are you really an English Language Learner or are you already bilingual or multilingual. You might be all sorts of –lingual from a very early age.
DB: Right.
JC: But the current metrics, they’re bounded by bureaucracies and by certain norms and standards that fulfill a particular idea about language mastery and not only language mastery but also what counts as a quality program. So I think it’s kind of messy. I think it’s kind of messy but I support it, but I support it. I support the journey to create effective Dual Language programs and I support the idea being involved in them and trying to make them better in communities. My children attend them, I didn’t have a chance to attend them. I’m a big advocate of them and it’s always…it’s always something that’s near me because of family, because of personal, my own individual journey and connection, and because a lot of the people that I work with, that’s the area that they do research on. I’m actually writing an article about some of this that we’re talking about and what I’m trying to coin is what it means to be an English Language Learner that…what it means to design a Dual Language program where we provide opportunities for the just “learner” to understand how he or she is being framed and to understand how to resist possibilities of deficit narratives within their experience, like how you do that. How do you design a curriculum that does that or how do you conceptually encourage that kind of identity at a young age for a young person that is going to start the project of being called an ELL because it can have devastating consequences. I think my sister was in an ESL program in the back back back back back back back building for years and she hated it. She said it was very ineffective and not very additive for her. So yeah.
DB: Okay. I’ll ask one final question. In a perfect world, Dual Language would be about maintaining culture for native Spanish speakers it would be about maintaining your language and through your language your culture. So could you just speak a little bit…your perspective on the importance of maintaining your language and your culture in America?
JC: Yeah, well for me personally, that’s a great question, [long pause] I think I mentioned in our class that not until I got into my – well, there were cases earlier but I would say for the most part - not until I went to a student union at Arizona State University and decided to not graduate on time because I didn’t know anything about myself. I stopped my graduation clock and I was really frustrated and that’s why I transferred to like eight universities. Some of them were considered top five and I thought they were weak universities and I kept telling myself why do they come across to me as weak? It’s probably my fault, not getting into the right program, but maybe not. I thought, well the problem I’m having with these universities is that I don’t know anything about myself. So here I am at Arizona State, and I thought I’m not going graduate with a degree without knowing who I am. As the story unfolds, I found a class about the history of Chicanos or something and I took it. In that class, it just changed…it’s almost like the thoughts I had in the back of my mind were finally legitimized. There was a bunch of people that I’ve never met who believed the things that I believed in, who said things that I had thought about but no one had ever brought them up in a very public, formal way. I thought, wow, so I was not crazy. These things that I had in the back of my mind were real and there’s a group of people that agree with this and they’re writing about it and they exist in the world.
When I found that scholarship and that literature and that music and the theories and that community, my massive thirst for knowledge got accelerated [made an upward motion with his hand and a noise imitating ascension]. Reading twenty books every three days, it was like [same noise, repeated three times], it was exaggerated because I realized that so much of my life was about – based on educators that I had – not all was about escaping away from myself to become like them. Here was a whole world that was saying you don’t need to escape yourself, you are great, you are beautiful, you are knowledgeable, your community matters, and all this. I think that beauty and I think that link that I had to seeing the mirror of what my history tells me was game-changing and it was heartbreaking at first because it took so darn long. I was like, wow, why’d it take so long. At the same time I think it was something that I shared when I became a high school teacher. I made sure that, I tried to use that approach of encouraging not just that content mastery but encouraging that positive identity construction in equity or in academic instruction so that those two worlds would merge in a way that was not shallow and was not hollow because the pain of the winner can be just as bad as the pain of the one that doesn’t have success.
That’s something that I write about, the pain of the winner, but the scholarship or research that I do because sometimes you’re acknowledging the hollowness and the process and you’re trying to find ways to get your intent, let’s reconnect to the past, because you realize that it had things that you maybe could have just stayed with and didn’t’ have to necessarily take on the journey you took on. Or if you did take the journey and there’s beautiful things about it you want to find out ways that you can stay connected to whatever that was. You feel like a sense of exile constantly or a sense of trespassing or a sense of refugee status, you’re kind of playing with those thoughts and those emotions. But I think they’re good emotions because it creates a process of humility and a process of reflexivity and vulnerability. It allows, I think, for people to understand, how to not become [long pause] adapters to the cog in the overall wheel in ways that perpetuate inequalities. Remembering helps dismember the present constantly. Remembering, dismembering, remembering, dismembering. Yeah, so, I don’t know, for me it’s always been about that and I’m always around my community whether it’s at the work level or at the where I decide to live level or whether it’s visiting Mexico constantly. I’m always immersed because I’m not running away. I’m running in as much as possible. It keeps me grounded and it keeps me hopeful and it keeps me nuanced about what I think I can do to contribute. It keeps giving me info. Yeah. I use it all the time. Makes me feel whole.
DB: Awesome. Well, thank you, thank you so much for doing this interview for me.
JC: Yeah. You’re welcome. No, this was awesome.
END OF RECORDING
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
Es: Citación
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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R-0899 -- Carrillo, Juan.
Description
An account of the resource
The interviewee, Juan Carrillo, is a professor in the School of Education at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He was born to Mexican immigrants in Los Angeles, California. He grew up in Los Angeles, then moved to Phoenix, Arizona, then Austin, TX, and then finally to Chapel Hill, North Carolina. He received a PhD from the University of Texas at Austin. He studies the effect that American schools have on Mexican American students. The interview covers several different topics, from comparing Dual Language schools in the southwest to schools in Chapel Hill, to the history behind Dual Language schools, to the importance of maintaining one’s language and culture. Carrillo also discusses his life history and how it relates to Dual Language education.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
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2018-04-02
Format
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R0899_Audio.mp3
Publisher
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/27569">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/062479d23896ddccfd7af4c32c0be83d.mp3
cf253d534dc1b8993d588ad807a8cac6
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/2c4e23102bb9105d54ea6e76835bbf69.pdf
86ab99ddffe1905e76885c572d04f4a2
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0870
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
08 March 2017
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Weintraub, Claire.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Students
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1996
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Chapel Hill -- North Carolina -- United States
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Chapel Hill -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Joyner, Olivia.
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Claire Weintraub, a junior at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, met with Olivia Joyner to discuss her experiences growing up in North Carolina. Claire has lived in Chapel Hill for her life, and observed firsthand the demographic changes in her schools as more and more students from other countries became her classmates. Claire studies Spanish at school, and she believes this has aided her in being able to connect with Hispanic migrants. She has been working with LINC: Linking-Immigrants-to-New-Communities since her first year on campus. Claire helps peer tutor and teach English to migrants who speak Spanish, Burmese, and Karen.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Claire Weintraub by Olivia Joyner, 08 March 2017, R-0870, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/27415
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Education; Receiving communities; Integration and segregation; Language and communication; Migratory experience
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Olivia: [00:00:01] This is Olivia here with Claire at 9:47am in the UL. Claire, can I confirm that I have your consent for this interview?
Claire: Yes.
Olivia: [00:00:18] Okay, so could you just start off by telling me where you’re from and where you grew up?
Claire: Yeah, so I’m from Chapel Hill, North Carolina- born and raised- lived here my whole life. And obviously I go to school here no too, so yeah … that’s my home.
Olivia: [00:00:37] Okay so you never moved. That changes some of my questions. Maybe, if you had moved at some point in your life, how do you think that would have affected your upbringing or our family?
Claire: Yeah. I think that- I mean it’s definitely always difficult, especially when you’re a kid, to move to a new place. You know, you’re leaving behind a place where you feel comfortable, where you have friends and stuff, and sort of having to start over. I definitely think that’d be difficult. I guess the closest thing I have to compare it to is coming to college, because I was in the same town but it’s a new setting. There’s definitely an adjustment period for sure.
Olivia: [00:01:24] Do you have siblings?
Claire: Mhmm. I have a younger brother who is two years younger than me and two step brothers who are five years younger.
Olivia: [00:01:30] So what was the transition like going to college? Were you the first in the house to go?
Claire: Mhmm. Yeah. It was- I don’t know- it wasn’t too rough, but it was definitely sort of a new thing for my family since I was the oldest one. So sort of- it was a lot- it was kind of overwhelming trying to figure everything out. But it was nice to be pretty close to my family, and know that they were there if I needed to fall back on them. But I ended up not really going home that much at all freshman year.
Olivia: [00:02:04] Where is the farthest place from home that you’ve travelled?
Claire: The farthest, geographically, I don’t know. I don’t know which is farther, between Europe vs. Brazil, but those are probably the farthest. But the longest- I studied abroad in Spain. So that’s the farthest I’ve stayed for an extended period of time. I guess that’s a better comparison to moving to a new place than college. So, yeah. I studied abroad in Spain for five months. So that was pretty far.
Olivia: [00:02:36] Did your family ever get to come visit you?
Claire: Yeah, they did. That was nice. They came for a few days and I got to show them around and everything.
Olivia: [00:02:45] And that was easy having them- did they have to fill out any visa forms, or were they able to just buy a ticket and come visit?
Claire: Yeah, they were able to just buy a ticket and fly over. I mean, my mom actually already had a work trip to somewhere else in Europe, so she was able to just pop on down to Spain while she was over there. It was pretty easy.
Olivia: [00:03:07] Growing up in Chapel Hill- I assume you were in the Chapel Hill/Carrboro school system- did you have a lot of classes with students that came from other countries, or that spoke other languages?
Claire: Yeah, for sure. There’s a pretty large immigrant population in Chapel Hill- a lot of Hispanics, especially Mexicans immigrants. Chapel Hill also has a pretty large Burmese refugee population. So definitely growing up there was always pretty diverse classrooms. When I got to high school it tended to be more segregated, along the lines of honors vs. AP classes tended to have more white students, and then the minorities tended to be in less of those classes. But in general, my schools were pretty diverse.
Olivia: [00:04:00] Did you feel like you had any contact with immigrant or refugee populations outside of the classroom, like in your friend groups, or after school activities, or volunteer activities?
Claire: To some extent in high school but not really as much until I got to college. I mean, I definitely knew people who were immigrants, but I wouldn’t say I had a ton of outside-of-school interaction with them.
Olivia: [00:04:30] So what have you done here? You said now you maybe have a little more contact.
Claire: Yeah, so I volunteer with an organization called Linking-Immigrants-to-New-Communities, or LINC for sure, and we basically do ESL tutoring for immigrants in the communities, and I’ve been doing that since my freshman year here.
Olivia: That’s awesome.
Claire: Yeah, and I’ve really enjoyed that. I’ve had the opportunity to interact with people from a lot of different backgrounds and stuff.
Olivia: [00:04:58] So do you prefer to kind of find one family, or two, and kind of help them along long term in the process, or do you prefer to just help as many people come in contact with as many resources as possible?
Claire: Yeah, it kind of depends. So, people come to LINC looking for different things, and we try to cater what we do to what they need, so we have some people who will come really regularly- every week, or a twice a week for a year or two- and in those situations it’s nice to be able to work with the same person over and over because you sort of know their level and know what kind of strategies worked or haven’t worked in the past. And then there are some people who want more of a short-term ‘I want to be able to say these few things so I can communicate with my boss better’ or whatever. In those cases, you just focus on helping them with what they need at that moment. But it definitely is rewarded to see people who you’ve worked with for a while, see their improvement and see something they’re really struggling with at first, see them sort of start to overcome that. You can tell they’re really proud and satisfied. It’s a good feeling to know that you’ve helped them get there.
Olivia: [00:06:18] That’s really great. What have been some of the major categories that people have come in to LINC to have assistance for?
Claire: A lot of people, they want to be able to speak, they want to be able to be more comfortable speaking in a work environment. They want to be able to communicate with their boss better, or if they work in some kind of service industry with customer- that’s like a really big thing. And then, sometimes, it’s more like basic-conversation-type-stuff: just being able to say ‘hi, how are you? My name is ___. I’m from ___.’ Sometimes, especially with people who have kids, they want to be able to talk to their kid’s teachers, and just introduce themselves, and things like that. And then- I’d say the biggest thing is the work environment type things, but it’s really- we have one student who’s been coming for a while and he wants to work on his speaking in front of groups- public speaking type thing. So once people get more comfortable with one on one conversations, sometimes they want to move to that next level.
Olivia: [00:07:36] So what have been your personal challenges with the language barriers- with trying to help people maybe learn English, but maybe they don’t speak Spanish and maybe come from somewhere else? I don’t know if you know any other languages, or how you work through those issues.
Claire: Yeah, that’s actually a really relevant question right now because in the past we have pretty much only worked with Hispanic immigrants, which has been a lot easier for me since I speak Spanish, so if I don’t know how to explain something [in English] then I can just explain it in Spanish. But then more recently we’ve had a lot of members of the Karen community- they’re Burmese refugees but they speak Karen as their language. Yeah, so I don’t speak that language at all and it’s really structured very differently from English so that’s been definitely a new challenge because we’re having to try to explain concepts- English concepts to them in English when they’re English is at a pretty beginner level. So it’s more of a- we’ve had to work together with our participants more to make sure that we’re really able to communicate with them. But, I don’t really remember what your original question was.
Olivia: It was just about language barriers.
Claire. Yeah, so that’s definitely been a challenge, but I think it’s been kind of an interesting challenge, and we’ve sort of been able to- I’ve been able to learn some very very basics of Karen as I’ve been working with these people, which has been kind of interesting, and it sort of shifts this- again, sort of puts you in their shoes a little bit. I’m having so much trouble even remembering how to say ‘he’ and she;’ I couldn’t imagine having to learn an entire language in a community where no one else spoke my language, so yeah.
Olivia: [00:09:27] That’s a really good point. So do y’all try and do any advocacy or awareness work on campus? Like showing other students that these are some of the difficulties that immigrants and refugees face here on campus or in their work everyday. Do y’all do any of that?
Claire: We don’t- we mostly do more like the service side, but we do sort of partner with some other organizations- I don’t know if you’re familiar with SUIE, which is Students United for Immigrant Equality, I believe. They’re like an immigrant activism group. So they do a lot of these types of awareness events and stuff- sort of like what you were talking about. Sort of making people aware of some of the challenges that immigrants face. And so we have sort of tried to help them out with events that they’ve done in the past and stuff, and we try to make sure at the very least that our volunteers are aware of just issues related to immigration, things that people we’re working with might be facing, so that when we’re working with people we’re like aware and conscientious about the people we’re working with.
Olivia: [00:10:46] How do you think that the work that you’re doing right now might impact your future and career path and just how you interact with people on a day-to-day basis?
Claire: Well, okay- in two parts. So, on a day-to-day basis, I think just having any kind of direct interaction with people who are different with you, especially immigrants, is really beneficial because it just makes you realize even more- even if you objectively know immigrants are just like us and they’re just people trying to improve their lives and come here and get a job and contribute to society, when you meet people and interact with them, it really reinforces that idea and, I think that especially with everything that’s been going on in politics has made me even more strongly feel like people just really misunderstand and mis-categorize immigrants and what their intents are and what they’re doing or not doing, contributing or not contributing to our society. So, I think that on a human level, it’s really beneficial to have that personal interaction, and then as far as future or career, I mean it’s hard to say because I don’t know exactly what I want to do at this point, but it’s definitely- before coming to UNC I would have not have necessarily considered a job doing anything relating to immigration, it just wasn’t something that was maybe huge on my radar, but as I’ve done a lot of this work and taken more classes related to it, it’s become something that’s really interesting to me and definitely something I would consider pursuing as a career. So yeah, it’s definitely made me much more aware and passionate about these issues.
Olivia: [00:12:35] So you think that if you were to pursue some kind of career in immigration you’d like to work in the U.S. with immigrants coming here, or work outside of the country and kind of being on the other side of that?
Claire: I don’t know; that’s a good question. I haven’t really thought that through so much I guess, but I would love to be able to do something where I can use my Spanish, so whether that’s in the U.S. or outside of the U.S. I don’t know.
Olivia: [00:13:13] So what are you most excited about for the Guanajuato trip?
Claire: I don’t know. I’m excited for everything, but I guess just sort of the opportunity to kind of see first hand a lot of the things we’ve been hearing about, or seeing about in the movies, and I feel like really see the other side of this- the migration issue. Like literally- where people are coming from, and I’m also really interested to see all of the community development projects they’ve been doing, because those sound really interesting. They’re implementing a lot of creative solutions to sort of help maintain these communities, so I’m really interested to see those projects as well.
Olivia: Me too. I think that’s all I have for you, so thank you!
Claire: Yeah, thank you.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Estudiantes
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Claire Weintraub, estudiante de tercer año en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill, se encontró con Olivia Joyner para discutir sobre sus experiencias creciendo en Carolina del Norte. Claire ha vivido en Chapel Hill toda su vida, y ha observado de primera mano los cambios demográficos en las escuelas, donde más y más estudiantes de otros países se convirtieron en sus compañeros de clase. Claire estudia español en la escuela, y cree que esto la ha ayudado a ser capaz de conectarse con migrantes Hispanos. Ella ha trabajado con LINC: Linking-Immigrants-to-New-Communities (Conectando Migrantes a Nuevas Comunidades) desde su primer año en el campus. Claire enseña inglés a migrantes que hablan español, birmano, y lenguas karénicas.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Claire Weintraub por Olivia Joyner, 08 Marzo 2017, R-0870, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Educación; Comunidades receptoras; Integración y segregación; Lenguaje y comunicación; Experiencia migratoria
Es: Transcripción
Olivia: [00:00:01] This is Olivia here with Claire at 9:47am in the UL. Claire, can I confirm that I have your consent for this interview?
Claire: Yes.
Olivia: [00:00:18] Okay, so could you just start off by telling me where you’re from and where you grew up?
Claire: Yeah, so I’m from Chapel Hill, North Carolina- born and raised- lived here my whole life. And obviously I go to school here no too, so yeah … that’s my home.
Olivia: [00:00:37] Okay so you never moved. That changes some of my questions. Maybe, if you had moved at some point in your life, how do you think that would have affected your upbringing or our family?
Claire: Yeah. I think that- I mean it’s definitely always difficult, especially when you’re a kid, to move to a new place. You know, you’re leaving behind a place where you feel comfortable, where you have friends and stuff, and sort of having to start over. I definitely think that’d be difficult. I guess the closest thing I have to compare it to is coming to college, because I was in the same town but it’s a new setting. There’s definitely an adjustment period for sure.
Olivia: [00:01:24] Do you have siblings?
Claire: Mhmm. I have a younger brother who is two years younger than me and two step brothers who are five years younger.
Olivia: [00:01:30] So what was the transition like going to college? Were you the first in the house to go?
Claire: Mhmm. Yeah. It was- I don’t know- it wasn’t too rough, but it was definitely sort of a new thing for my family since I was the oldest one. So sort of- it was a lot- it was kind of overwhelming trying to figure everything out. But it was nice to be pretty close to my family, and know that they were there if I needed to fall back on them. But I ended up not really going home that much at all freshman year.
Olivia: [00:02:04] Where is the farthest place from home that you’ve travelled?
Claire: The farthest, geographically, I don’t know. I don’t know which is farther, between Europe vs. Brazil, but those are probably the farthest. But the longest- I studied abroad in Spain. So that’s the farthest I’ve stayed for an extended period of time. I guess that’s a better comparison to moving to a new place than college. So, yeah. I studied abroad in Spain for five months. So that was pretty far.
Olivia: [00:02:36] Did your family ever get to come visit you?
Claire: Yeah, they did. That was nice. They came for a few days and I got to show them around and everything.
Olivia: [00:02:45] And that was easy having them- did they have to fill out any visa forms, or were they able to just buy a ticket and come visit?
Claire: Yeah, they were able to just buy a ticket and fly over. I mean, my mom actually already had a work trip to somewhere else in Europe, so she was able to just pop on down to Spain while she was over there. It was pretty easy.
Olivia: [00:03:07] Growing up in Chapel Hill- I assume you were in the Chapel Hill/Carrboro school system- did you have a lot of classes with students that came from other countries, or that spoke other languages?
Claire: Yeah, for sure. There’s a pretty large immigrant population in Chapel Hill- a lot of Hispanics, especially Mexicans immigrants. Chapel Hill also has a pretty large Burmese refugee population. So definitely growing up there was always pretty diverse classrooms. When I got to high school it tended to be more segregated, along the lines of honors vs. AP classes tended to have more white students, and then the minorities tended to be in less of those classes. But in general, my schools were pretty diverse.
Olivia: [00:04:00] Did you feel like you had any contact with immigrant or refugee populations outside of the classroom, like in your friend groups, or after school activities, or volunteer activities?
Claire: To some extent in high school but not really as much until I got to college. I mean, I definitely knew people who were immigrants, but I wouldn’t say I had a ton of outside-of-school interaction with them.
Olivia: [00:04:30] So what have you done here? You said now you maybe have a little more contact.
Claire: Yeah, so I volunteer with an organization called Linking-Immigrants-to-New-Communities, or LINC for sure, and we basically do ESL tutoring for immigrants in the communities, and I’ve been doing that since my freshman year here.
Olivia: That’s awesome.
Claire: Yeah, and I’ve really enjoyed that. I’ve had the opportunity to interact with people from a lot of different backgrounds and stuff.
Olivia: [00:04:58] So do you prefer to kind of find one family, or two, and kind of help them along long term in the process, or do you prefer to just help as many people come in contact with as many resources as possible?
Claire: Yeah, it kind of depends. So, people come to LINC looking for different things, and we try to cater what we do to what they need, so we have some people who will come really regularly- every week, or a twice a week for a year or two- and in those situations it’s nice to be able to work with the same person over and over because you sort of know their level and know what kind of strategies worked or haven’t worked in the past. And then there are some people who want more of a short-term ‘I want to be able to say these few things so I can communicate with my boss better’ or whatever. In those cases, you just focus on helping them with what they need at that moment. But it definitely is rewarded to see people who you’ve worked with for a while, see their improvement and see something they’re really struggling with at first, see them sort of start to overcome that. You can tell they’re really proud and satisfied. It’s a good feeling to know that you’ve helped them get there.
Olivia: [00:06:18] That’s really great. What have been some of the major categories that people have come in to LINC to have assistance for?
Claire: A lot of people, they want to be able to speak, they want to be able to be more comfortable speaking in a work environment. They want to be able to communicate with their boss better, or if they work in some kind of service industry with customer- that’s like a really big thing. And then, sometimes, it’s more like basic-conversation-type-stuff: just being able to say ‘hi, how are you? My name is ___. I’m from ___.’ Sometimes, especially with people who have kids, they want to be able to talk to their kid’s teachers, and just introduce themselves, and things like that. And then- I’d say the biggest thing is the work environment type things, but it’s really- we have one student who’s been coming for a while and he wants to work on his speaking in front of groups- public speaking type thing. So once people get more comfortable with one on one conversations, sometimes they want to move to that next level.
Olivia: [00:07:36] So what have been your personal challenges with the language barriers- with trying to help people maybe learn English, but maybe they don’t speak Spanish and maybe come from somewhere else? I don’t know if you know any other languages, or how you work through those issues.
Claire: Yeah, that’s actually a really relevant question right now because in the past we have pretty much only worked with Hispanic immigrants, which has been a lot easier for me since I speak Spanish, so if I don’t know how to explain something [in English] then I can just explain it in Spanish. But then more recently we’ve had a lot of members of the Karen community- they’re Burmese refugees but they speak Karen as their language. Yeah, so I don’t speak that language at all and it’s really structured very differently from English so that’s been definitely a new challenge because we’re having to try to explain concepts- English concepts to them in English when they’re English is at a pretty beginner level. So it’s more of a- we’ve had to work together with our participants more to make sure that we’re really able to communicate with them. But, I don’t really remember what your original question was.
Olivia: It was just about language barriers.
Claire. Yeah, so that’s definitely been a challenge, but I think it’s been kind of an interesting challenge, and we’ve sort of been able to- I’ve been able to learn some very very basics of Karen as I’ve been working with these people, which has been kind of interesting, and it sort of shifts this- again, sort of puts you in their shoes a little bit. I’m having so much trouble even remembering how to say ‘he’ and she;’ I couldn’t imagine having to learn an entire language in a community where no one else spoke my language, so yeah.
Olivia: [00:09:27] That’s a really good point. So do y’all try and do any advocacy or awareness work on campus? Like showing other students that these are some of the difficulties that immigrants and refugees face here on campus or in their work everyday. Do y’all do any of that?
Claire: We don’t- we mostly do more like the service side, but we do sort of partner with some other organizations- I don’t know if you’re familiar with SUIE, which is Students United for Immigrant Equality, I believe. They’re like an immigrant activism group. So they do a lot of these types of awareness events and stuff- sort of like what you were talking about. Sort of making people aware of some of the challenges that immigrants face. And so we have sort of tried to help them out with events that they’ve done in the past and stuff, and we try to make sure at the very least that our volunteers are aware of just issues related to immigration, things that people we’re working with might be facing, so that when we’re working with people we’re like aware and conscientious about the people we’re working with.
Olivia: [00:10:46] How do you think that the work that you’re doing right now might impact your future and career path and just how you interact with people on a day-to-day basis?
Claire: Well, okay- in two parts. So, on a day-to-day basis, I think just having any kind of direct interaction with people who are different with you, especially immigrants, is really beneficial because it just makes you realize even more- even if you objectively know immigrants are just like us and they’re just people trying to improve their lives and come here and get a job and contribute to society, when you meet people and interact with them, it really reinforces that idea and, I think that especially with everything that’s been going on in politics has made me even more strongly feel like people just really misunderstand and mis-categorize immigrants and what their intents are and what they’re doing or not doing, contributing or not contributing to our society. So, I think that on a human level, it’s really beneficial to have that personal interaction, and then as far as future or career, I mean it’s hard to say because I don’t know exactly what I want to do at this point, but it’s definitely- before coming to UNC I would have not have necessarily considered a job doing anything relating to immigration, it just wasn’t something that was maybe huge on my radar, but as I’ve done a lot of this work and taken more classes related to it, it’s become something that’s really interesting to me and definitely something I would consider pursuing as a career. So yeah, it’s definitely made me much more aware and passionate about these issues.
Olivia: [00:12:35] So you think that if you were to pursue some kind of career in immigration you’d like to work in the U.S. with immigrants coming here, or work outside of the country and kind of being on the other side of that?
Claire: I don’t know; that’s a good question. I haven’t really thought that through so much I guess, but I would love to be able to do something where I can use my Spanish, so whether that’s in the U.S. or outside of the U.S. I don’t know.
Olivia: [00:13:13] So what are you most excited about for the Guanajuato trip?
Claire: I don’t know. I’m excited for everything, but I guess just sort of the opportunity to kind of see first hand a lot of the things we’ve been hearing about, or seeing about in the movies, and I feel like really see the other side of this- the migration issue. Like literally- where people are coming from, and I’m also really interested to see all of the community development projects they’ve been doing, because those sound really interesting. They’re implementing a lot of creative solutions to sort of help maintain these communities, so I’m really interested to see those projects as well.
Olivia: Me too. I think that’s all I have for you, so thank you!
Claire: Yeah, thank you.
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-0870 -- Weintraub, Claire.
Description
An account of the resource
Claire Weintraub, a junior at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, met with Olivia Joyner to discuss her experiences growing up in North Carolina. Claire has lived in Chapel Hill for her life, and observed firsthand the demographic changes in her schools as more and more students from other countries became her classmates. Claire studies Spanish at school, and she believes this has aided her in being able to connect with Hispanic migrants. She has been working with LINC: Linking-Immigrants-to-New-Communities since her first year on campus. Claire helps peer tutor and teach English to migrants who speak Spanish, Burmese, and Karen.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
08 March 2017
Format
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R0870_Audio.mp3
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/27415">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/3673ab31113a9b2a0d19edf06b5b0dcf.mp3
b8a19ff420d580bdd8533a7d3dde3ae7
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/05d74764c7d6eefd19fd5f2a4d341b65.pdf
1a66d35e6facc7bb583bd1628ea0c187
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0869
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
11 April 2017
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Price, Elizabeth.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
School principals
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Joyner, Olivia.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Elizabeth Price, the principal of South Graham Elementary School, met with Olivia Joyner to discuss the programs available at the school for students who come to the school speaking English as a second language, or not at all. South Graham, in an effort to promote global consciousness, inclusivity, and the value of being able to speak multiple languages, is a school that offers not only ESL (English as a Second Language) classes, but also a dual-language-immersion program, and is credited as a Global Passport School. Principal Price hopes that students will graduate from the school having not only a deeper understanding of world cultures, but additionally a realization of the benefits of being able to speak more than one language. She recognizes that many individuals who live in North Carolina, and the United States speak Spanish, and therefore believes being able to understand and speak the language is a useful tool.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Elizabeth Price by Olivia Joyner, 11 April 2017, R-0869, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/27409
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Culture; Education; Identity; Integration and Segregation
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Olivia [00:00:00] This is Olivia Joyner here with Principal Elizabeth Price of South Graham Elementary School on April 11th at 3:05pm. Principal Price, can I confirm that I have your consent to record and upload this interview?
Elizabeth Price: Yes
Olivia [00:00:18] Perfect, thank you. So how long have you worked here at this elementary school?
Elizabeth Price: This is my tenth year. I’m finishing out my tenth year here.
Olivia [00:00:24] And what- Where were you working before this?
Elizabeth Price: In Asheboro, North Carolina. I was a principal of an elementary school there for three years.
Olivia [00:00:33] That’s so neat. Have you always lived in North Carolina?
Elizabeth Price: Yes.
Olivia: [00:00:36] Me too. I’m just curious as to what programs South Graham offers for students who come to the school, or move to the area, and speak English as a second language or maybe don’t know any English.
Elizabeth Price: We offer- obviously we offer the English as a Second Language [ESL] for English-language-learner support. We have three full-time ESL teachers who work with our students. I pay for one of those out of Title I. We would only have, I think, two and a half, but I felt like we really needy three. Also what we’ve offered is a dual language, Spanish immersion program, where half of the kids are English-speaking natives, and the other half are Spanish-speaking- Spanish speakers. And so what they do is, they do one day in Spanish and one day in English, and they learn the same curriculum as a traditional classroom, but they are able to learn it in both languages.
Olivia [00:01:48] And does that program last the entire year?
Elizabeth Price: Yes, it’s kindergarten through sixth- through fifth grade.
Olivia: Oh wow.
Elizabeth Price: We actually sent our first group to middle school this year.
Olivia [00:01:58] And every day they switch off languages? It’s the same material?
Elizabeth Price: Mhmm.
Olivia [00:02:03] So they’re in the classroom together?
Elizabeth Price: We have two different classrooms.
Olivia: So while one class is learning English, one is learning Spanish?
Elizabeth Price: Mhmm.
Olivia: That is very neat.
Elizabeth Price: Yes, and through that we’ve been able to work on our ELL’s, not only on their English, but also it helps them to keep their native language, and make them literate in their native language, which we have found has not necessarily been the case with students who are in our traditional classroom.
Olivia [00:02:38] How many students are participating in this program?
Elizabeth Price: The max would be forty-eight per grade level: twenty-four in each class. The thing about it is that we are a very transient school, so if they [the students in the dual language program] do leave us in third, fourth, fifth grade, we don’t have anybody we can put back in those classrooms. So those classes tend to be much smaller in the upper grades. Now, kindergarten, first, and second- they’re pretty large.
Olivia [00:03:14] Is this a program that families apply for or are they randomly selected?
Elizabeth Price: Yes, they do apply for them. If there is the need for a waiting list, then they’re randomly selected, but because we offer forty-eight spots, we’ve been very fortunate that we’ve been able to have everyone that wants to be in it, to be in it.
Olivia [00:03:36] That’s really great. What are kind of the demographics of this area? I’m unfamiliar with Graham County.
Elizabeth Price: We... South Graham is the most diverse elementary school in the district, as far as- we’ve got- we’re about 35% Caucasian, 35% Hispanic, about 20% African American- except that may be higher now because we’ve had a lot of African American students to enroll. We have Asian, we have multi [ethnic], we have- I mean- we’re just a very diverse school, and you will see that in the area of Graham anyway.
Olivia [00:04:23] Is that something that attracted you to this area?
Elizabeth Price: Yes, I would say so. When I interviewed for this job, I was looking for something closer to where my parents live, and this was just a natural fit for me, because I taught Spanish. That’s what my teaching degree is in- in Spanish.
Olivia [00:04:47] So Spanish- You intended throughout college to be able to teach that?
Elizabeth Price: To teach Spanish, yes.
Olivia [00:04:56] Did you have any experience with that before- before becoming a teacher Did you do any sort of volunteer work or help out with local organizations?
Elizabeth Price: Not really. I’ve been out of school for so long, that it really- the way they did student-teaching was so separate than- now a days when anybody goes into the field of education, you’re pretty much put into a classroom your first semester. That’s not the way it was when I was in school. You pretty much didn’t get into the classroom until your last year. So I really didn’t have that much opportunity to work in classrooms and volunteer my time.
Olivia [00:05:41] What do you think is the value of students learning a second language from such an early age?
Elizabeth Price [00:05:48] Obviously, I mean- my daughter has gone through the Spanish-immersion program at Elon Elementary. She’s in middle school now. You [students] are setting yourself up with a wonderful tool that will only aid your success later on in life. But I think besides that, and that’s pretty much the answer that everybody gives you, but I think the biggest thing is you also learn empathy. You learn how to be leaders. You learn how to be followers. Especially here, because my ESL students don’t have very many opportunities to feel like they are the leaders, especially if their English is very- is not as proficient as what you would have hoped. And so in kindergarten, or you know, whenever they first come here, they become very reliant on English-speaking students. But what I’ve noticed here, that I really just- I just love it- is the fact that when they’re [native Spanish-speaking students] in their Spanish class, the English kids are the ones that are needing to be reliant on the Spanish-speaking kids. And that is very powerful, I feel, because it’s almost like it puts them [all students] on an even scale. And I think in so many ways, our kids, and when I say our kids, the kids who speak English who are native to North Carolina and the United States, and with the current political climate the way that it is, they [Spanish-speakers] have always kind of felt like they were less-than, but in this case they’re feeling like ‘okay I’m just as good as they are.’ And that to me is probably the most powerful thing that we can give our kids.
Olivia [00:07:47] If a student starts off, say in a Kindergarten ESL class, how long would it generally take students to learn English at a level where they can be in classes with native English-speaking students?
Elizabeth Price: They are in classes with native English-speaking students, because our ESL program is a pull-out program. So they’ll go out for thirty minutes a day.
Olivia: Okay.
Elizabeth Price [00:08:20] Research says it takes between five and seven years for students to be able to be proficient in the academic language, and two years in more of the pragmatics- the social language. It really depends on the student, as far as our exiting of kids from ESL services. We have found that those kids that are in the Spanish-immersion program are exiting at a much faster rate than those who are in the traditional program, where they’re only immersed in English. So that part- I think we only have one student now in fifth grade who is still receiving ESL services, and she is in the Spanish immersion program. So the rest of them, they get out pretty quickly.
Olivia [00:09:15] Is that something that parents apply for as well, or when a student starts off in a classroom in say Kindergarten, the teachers assess their language abilities?
Elizabeth Price [00:09:25] We are required by law: anytime a parent puts on the Home Language Survey, anytime the parents puts anything other than ‘English’ down, then they are required to be tested. Unless the parent writes a note saying ‘I do not want my child to be tested. I do not want my child to receive services.’ So that’s a federal law, because we had a student who just moved, but he was Native American and he was receiving ESL services because his parents put down his native language as Navajo. So I thought that was really interesting. Any language besides English, if it’s mentioned, they are to be tested.
Olivia [00:10:15] But Spanish is the predominant second language?
Elizabeth Price: Mhmm. And we do have some Asian students who receive services, but --
Olivia: So are the classrooms further divided by the language?
Elizabeth Price: Not divided by the language. Divided by their language proficiency. So, you know, we try to put kids in classrooms with similar language proficiencies, but it doesn’t always work that way. Because I may have one ESL teacher- in fact I think all three ESL teachers work with Kindergarten, and they just pull them out based on their language ability.
Olivia [00:10:58] Are there any programs or services offered for the parents of these students, if they would like to learn English as well?
Elizabeth Price: Not here. Obviously they can go to ACC.
Olivia: What is ACC?
Elizabeth Price: Alamance Community College.
Olivia: Okay.
Elizabeth Price: They offer English classes there. We’ve never attempted to try something like that here--
Olivia [00:11:25] Is it something that you just believe would require a lot of work and there just aren’t enough resources or just something you don’t believe is necessary, since--?
Elizabeth Price: Oh it’s necessary. It would be finding the resources, as far as, you know, you’d want to provide child care, you would want to provide food, there- you just want to make it as nice as can be. However, if you don’t have the people to help, it makes it a little more difficult.
Olivia [00:11:56] Right. Are there translators available at the school if a parent calls the school, or comes into the school, with a concern about their children’s grades?
Elizabeth Price: We have a full time translator who’s from Cuba, and then my social worker speaks Spanish. I speak Spanish. We have a Spanish- you know we have a Spanish teacher at every grade level. One of my ESL teachers speaks Spanish. So we have a lot of resources as far as the ability to translate if a parent- because we want parents to feel welcome when they come into the school.
Olivia [00:12:39] And you all have a program- you’re a Global Passport School- would you mind explaining what that means?
Elizabeth Price: Yeah. What it is- it’s an extension of our language-immersion program. It is- It kind of brings the whole school together with one focus. Each grade level has a specific content that they integrate into their curriculum. So Kindergarten is Oceania, and then first grade is Asia, second grade is South America, third grade is Africa, fourth grade is Europe, and fifth grade is North America. And so, they [all students] have to complete- the teacher’s have to complete four modules each year. And then they have to do what is called a Capstone Project in order to get a global designation on their teaching license, to make themselves more marketable. It really- the goal of the program is to make students globally aware. So therefore, by the time they get- if they’ve been here Kindergarten through fifth grade, then they have literally- or not literally- figuratively travelled the world. It’s always a work in progress trying to figure it out- it’s only our second year being one. We want to make sure that the curriculum is in place prior to making the school look and feel global. That’s kind of my take on it. I want to see it through what they’re doing in the classroom. Some of the other schools that are ‘global’ already, they started with ‘alright, let’s have the school look and feel like it’s global.’ But we’ve had lots of different projects that the kids have worked on. You know, third grade- they made African flags, and then they worked on Aryan perimeter by looking at the triangles in some of their flags or the rectangles. They’ve also read African legends, and used those in order to teach the different reading content standards. One of my fifth grade teachers, she does ‘field trip Fridays,’ where she announces a country, and the kids are pretty much let loose and they go and they research that country, and they each bring a particular fact, and she creates this poster of everything that the kids found about that country. So they’ve had a good time with that. And then this past Thursday, we had a global schools’ tasting- a global tasting party, where students from the local technical school- career and technical center for ABSS, they catered the global tasting, and they created one to two dishes per continent that the kids could come in and try. And the kids really liked that- really liked it a lot.
Olivia [00:16:06] Have you seen, with the Global Passport Program, any students that maybe are from the area that they’re studying kind of step forward and help lead those projects or maybe explain something about- something they remembered or an experience they had?
Elizabeth Price: No, I don’t think so. Last year we did- we always do a big Splash performance right before our first intersession in September. And last year the fifth graders- they all represented the country that their relatives came from, because we were doing ‘Spanish is Spoken Here,’ talking about how Spanish is spoken on every single continent. So they brought in their own heritage with that, but typically no. It’s pretty much teacher-directed.
Olivia [00:17:04] What other schools have a similar program? Are there any in this area?
Elizabeth Price: Oh yeah: Alexander Wilson [Elementary School], E.M. Yoder [Elementary School], Elon [Elementary School], Eastlawn [Elementary School], and Smith [Elementary School].
Olivia: I remember doing a similar program- I went to Joyner Elementary, which is Spanish-immersion in Raleigh. And we focused more on Central and South American countries, but we would make the flags in art class, and perform a dance, and I always thought that was very interesting.
Olivia [00:17:38] And this should have been one of my first questions, but is Spanish a requirement for students, at this school, to take every year?
Elizabeth Price: No.
Olivia [00:17:45] So there’s a Spanish teacher for each grade, but the classes are optional?
Elizabeth Price: Well the Spanish teachers teach our Spanish-immersion program.
Olivia: Oh, okay.
Elizabeth Price: Yeah.
Olivia [00:17:55] So a Spanish class would serve as --
Elizabeth Price: They just go to-- she’s a licensed regular Kinder- Elementary teacher. She just does it all in Spanish. So, there’s very few schools left that have- because that’s what I used to teach- it’s like a special. Spanish is a special. Very very few schools have that left. So, you know, I know my staff would be very interested in having that if we could do that, but I think we have other pressing needs that we need to look at first.
Olivia [00:18:31] And for any- do you all have a option on the website to share the same material in Spanish? Is it a bilingual website for the school?
Elizabeth Price: No. I don’t think so.
Olivia: It is not? Okay. Let’s see … That may be all of the questions that I have for you. Is there anything else that you’d like to share or expand on?
Elizabeth Price: I don’t think so. I mean, it’s- that’s one of the reasons why I just really appreciate this area, this community, this school. It’s a real good- it’s just the diversity, and the ability for kids to look past the differences and celebrate those differences- that just is very special to me.
Olivia [00:19:36] I actually was curious- for students who come here speaking Spanish, or have recently moved to the United States, do you know- are there any areas in particular that they come from? Have you seen --
Elizabeth Price: It’s mainly Mexico. And it’s mainly in the- let me think--
Olivia: I know Alamance County has a significant population of people from the state of Guanajuato.
Elizabeth Price: Yeah, maybe that’s it. It’s where the- it’s very rural. So maybe the- for some reason I can’t- this has left my mind. Because I know we’ve had some people from Michoacán. But primarily from rural Mexico, the indigenous Indians, is what we’ve seen.
Olivia: Interesting.
Elizabeth Price: Now here lately, you know- we have had kids who have lived here their whole lives coming in, but they’ll come in speaking no English, because they’ve just been with mom, or dad, or babysitter. And so they only know Spanish. But then here lately, the kids that we’ve had have been more from Central America I think, Honduras, Guatemala- you know, places like that have been the most recent migrations. But the predominant number of them came from Mexico.
Olivia [00:21:15] Have you seen the community evolve in your ten years here? Has there been maybe more migration which has led to more Spanish-speaking services around or restaurants, or families in the school, or less?
Elizabeth Price: I think we’ve seen less actually. I mean especially, you know when, the local sheriff was involved with I.C.E. [Immigration and Customs Enforcement] and everything. More and more families were leaving.
Olivia: Leaving the area in general?
Elizabeth Price: Mhmm. Yeah. So right now, you know with the political climate the way that it is, I’m expecting more to leave. And I think, you know, I think they’ll go back to Mexico, is what I think they’ll do, but we shall wait and see.
Olivia: Well that’s all I have for you, thank you so much for meeting with me.
Elizabeth Price: No problem!
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Directores de escuela
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Elizabeth Price, la directora de la escuela primaria de South Graham, se reunió con Olivia Joyner para discutir sobre los programas disponibles en la escuela para estudiantes que no saben hablar inglés, o hablan inglés como un segundo idioma. South Graham, en un esfuerzo por promover la consciencia global, la inclusividad y el valor de ser capaz de hablar varios lenguajes, es una escuela que ofrece no sólo clases de ESL (inglés como un segundo idioma) sino también un programa de inmersión en doble lenguaje, y se acredita como una Escuela de Pasaportes Globales. La directora Price espera que los estudiantes se gradúen de la escuela teniendo no sólo una comprensión más profunda de las culturas del mundo, sino también una comprensión de los beneficios de poder hablar más de un idioma. Ella reconoce que muchas personas que viven en Carolina del Norte y en los Estados Unidos hablan español, y por eso, cree que la capacidad de entender y hablar el idioma es una herramienta útil.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Elizabeth Price por Olivia Joyner, 11 Abril 2017, R-0869, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Cultura; Educación; Identidad; Integración y segregación
Es: Transcripción
Olivia [00:00:00] This is Olivia Joyner here with Principal Elizabeth Price of South Graham Elementary School on April 11th at 3:05pm. Principal Price, can I confirm that I have your consent to record and upload this interview?
Elizabeth Price: Yes
Olivia [00:00:18] Perfect, thank you. So how long have you worked here at this elementary school?
Elizabeth Price: This is my tenth year. I’m finishing out my tenth year here.
Olivia [00:00:24] And what- Where were you working before this?
Elizabeth Price: In Asheboro, North Carolina. I was a principal of an elementary school there for three years.
Olivia [00:00:33] That’s so neat. Have you always lived in North Carolina?
Elizabeth Price: Yes.
Olivia: [00:00:36] Me too. I’m just curious as to what programs South Graham offers for students who come to the school, or move to the area, and speak English as a second language or maybe don’t know any English.
Elizabeth Price: We offer- obviously we offer the English as a Second Language [ESL] for English-language-learner support. We have three full-time ESL teachers who work with our students. I pay for one of those out of Title I. We would only have, I think, two and a half, but I felt like we really needy three. Also what we’ve offered is a dual language, Spanish immersion program, where half of the kids are English-speaking natives, and the other half are Spanish-speaking- Spanish speakers. And so what they do is, they do one day in Spanish and one day in English, and they learn the same curriculum as a traditional classroom, but they are able to learn it in both languages.
Olivia [00:01:48] And does that program last the entire year?
Elizabeth Price: Yes, it’s kindergarten through sixth- through fifth grade.
Olivia: Oh wow.
Elizabeth Price: We actually sent our first group to middle school this year.
Olivia [00:01:58] And every day they switch off languages? It’s the same material?
Elizabeth Price: Mhmm.
Olivia [00:02:03] So they’re in the classroom together?
Elizabeth Price: We have two different classrooms.
Olivia: So while one class is learning English, one is learning Spanish?
Elizabeth Price: Mhmm.
Olivia: That is very neat.
Elizabeth Price: Yes, and through that we’ve been able to work on our ELL’s, not only on their English, but also it helps them to keep their native language, and make them literate in their native language, which we have found has not necessarily been the case with students who are in our traditional classroom.
Olivia [00:02:38] How many students are participating in this program?
Elizabeth Price: The max would be forty-eight per grade level: twenty-four in each class. The thing about it is that we are a very transient school, so if they [the students in the dual language program] do leave us in third, fourth, fifth grade, we don’t have anybody we can put back in those classrooms. So those classes tend to be much smaller in the upper grades. Now, kindergarten, first, and second- they’re pretty large.
Olivia [00:03:14] Is this a program that families apply for or are they randomly selected?
Elizabeth Price: Yes, they do apply for them. If there is the need for a waiting list, then they’re randomly selected, but because we offer forty-eight spots, we’ve been very fortunate that we’ve been able to have everyone that wants to be in it, to be in it.
Olivia [00:03:36] That’s really great. What are kind of the demographics of this area? I’m unfamiliar with Graham County.
Elizabeth Price: We... South Graham is the most diverse elementary school in the district, as far as- we’ve got- we’re about 35% Caucasian, 35% Hispanic, about 20% African American- except that may be higher now because we’ve had a lot of African American students to enroll. We have Asian, we have multi [ethnic], we have- I mean- we’re just a very diverse school, and you will see that in the area of Graham anyway.
Olivia [00:04:23] Is that something that attracted you to this area?
Elizabeth Price: Yes, I would say so. When I interviewed for this job, I was looking for something closer to where my parents live, and this was just a natural fit for me, because I taught Spanish. That’s what my teaching degree is in- in Spanish.
Olivia [00:04:47] So Spanish- You intended throughout college to be able to teach that?
Elizabeth Price: To teach Spanish, yes.
Olivia [00:04:56] Did you have any experience with that before- before becoming a teacher Did you do any sort of volunteer work or help out with local organizations?
Elizabeth Price: Not really. I’ve been out of school for so long, that it really- the way they did student-teaching was so separate than- now a days when anybody goes into the field of education, you’re pretty much put into a classroom your first semester. That’s not the way it was when I was in school. You pretty much didn’t get into the classroom until your last year. So I really didn’t have that much opportunity to work in classrooms and volunteer my time.
Olivia [00:05:41] What do you think is the value of students learning a second language from such an early age?
Elizabeth Price [00:05:48] Obviously, I mean- my daughter has gone through the Spanish-immersion program at Elon Elementary. She’s in middle school now. You [students] are setting yourself up with a wonderful tool that will only aid your success later on in life. But I think besides that, and that’s pretty much the answer that everybody gives you, but I think the biggest thing is you also learn empathy. You learn how to be leaders. You learn how to be followers. Especially here, because my ESL students don’t have very many opportunities to feel like they are the leaders, especially if their English is very- is not as proficient as what you would have hoped. And so in kindergarten, or you know, whenever they first come here, they become very reliant on English-speaking students. But what I’ve noticed here, that I really just- I just love it- is the fact that when they’re [native Spanish-speaking students] in their Spanish class, the English kids are the ones that are needing to be reliant on the Spanish-speaking kids. And that is very powerful, I feel, because it’s almost like it puts them [all students] on an even scale. And I think in so many ways, our kids, and when I say our kids, the kids who speak English who are native to North Carolina and the United States, and with the current political climate the way that it is, they [Spanish-speakers] have always kind of felt like they were less-than, but in this case they’re feeling like ‘okay I’m just as good as they are.’ And that to me is probably the most powerful thing that we can give our kids.
Olivia [00:07:47] If a student starts off, say in a Kindergarten ESL class, how long would it generally take students to learn English at a level where they can be in classes with native English-speaking students?
Elizabeth Price: They are in classes with native English-speaking students, because our ESL program is a pull-out program. So they’ll go out for thirty minutes a day.
Olivia: Okay.
Elizabeth Price [00:08:20] Research says it takes between five and seven years for students to be able to be proficient in the academic language, and two years in more of the pragmatics- the social language. It really depends on the student, as far as our exiting of kids from ESL services. We have found that those kids that are in the Spanish-immersion program are exiting at a much faster rate than those who are in the traditional program, where they’re only immersed in English. So that part- I think we only have one student now in fifth grade who is still receiving ESL services, and she is in the Spanish immersion program. So the rest of them, they get out pretty quickly.
Olivia [00:09:15] Is that something that parents apply for as well, or when a student starts off in a classroom in say Kindergarten, the teachers assess their language abilities?
Elizabeth Price [00:09:25] We are required by law: anytime a parent puts on the Home Language Survey, anytime the parents puts anything other than ‘English’ down, then they are required to be tested. Unless the parent writes a note saying ‘I do not want my child to be tested. I do not want my child to receive services.’ So that’s a federal law, because we had a student who just moved, but he was Native American and he was receiving ESL services because his parents put down his native language as Navajo. So I thought that was really interesting. Any language besides English, if it’s mentioned, they are to be tested.
Olivia [00:10:15] But Spanish is the predominant second language?
Elizabeth Price: Mhmm. And we do have some Asian students who receive services, but --
Olivia: So are the classrooms further divided by the language?
Elizabeth Price: Not divided by the language. Divided by their language proficiency. So, you know, we try to put kids in classrooms with similar language proficiencies, but it doesn’t always work that way. Because I may have one ESL teacher- in fact I think all three ESL teachers work with Kindergarten, and they just pull them out based on their language ability.
Olivia [00:10:58] Are there any programs or services offered for the parents of these students, if they would like to learn English as well?
Elizabeth Price: Not here. Obviously they can go to ACC.
Olivia: What is ACC?
Elizabeth Price: Alamance Community College.
Olivia: Okay.
Elizabeth Price: They offer English classes there. We’ve never attempted to try something like that here--
Olivia [00:11:25] Is it something that you just believe would require a lot of work and there just aren’t enough resources or just something you don’t believe is necessary, since--?
Elizabeth Price: Oh it’s necessary. It would be finding the resources, as far as, you know, you’d want to provide child care, you would want to provide food, there- you just want to make it as nice as can be. However, if you don’t have the people to help, it makes it a little more difficult.
Olivia [00:11:56] Right. Are there translators available at the school if a parent calls the school, or comes into the school, with a concern about their children’s grades?
Elizabeth Price: We have a full time translator who’s from Cuba, and then my social worker speaks Spanish. I speak Spanish. We have a Spanish- you know we have a Spanish teacher at every grade level. One of my ESL teachers speaks Spanish. So we have a lot of resources as far as the ability to translate if a parent- because we want parents to feel welcome when they come into the school.
Olivia [00:12:39] And you all have a program- you’re a Global Passport School- would you mind explaining what that means?
Elizabeth Price: Yeah. What it is- it’s an extension of our language-immersion program. It is- It kind of brings the whole school together with one focus. Each grade level has a specific content that they integrate into their curriculum. So Kindergarten is Oceania, and then first grade is Asia, second grade is South America, third grade is Africa, fourth grade is Europe, and fifth grade is North America. And so, they [all students] have to complete- the teacher’s have to complete four modules each year. And then they have to do what is called a Capstone Project in order to get a global designation on their teaching license, to make themselves more marketable. It really- the goal of the program is to make students globally aware. So therefore, by the time they get- if they’ve been here Kindergarten through fifth grade, then they have literally- or not literally- figuratively travelled the world. It’s always a work in progress trying to figure it out- it’s only our second year being one. We want to make sure that the curriculum is in place prior to making the school look and feel global. That’s kind of my take on it. I want to see it through what they’re doing in the classroom. Some of the other schools that are ‘global’ already, they started with ‘alright, let’s have the school look and feel like it’s global.’ But we’ve had lots of different projects that the kids have worked on. You know, third grade- they made African flags, and then they worked on Aryan perimeter by looking at the triangles in some of their flags or the rectangles. They’ve also read African legends, and used those in order to teach the different reading content standards. One of my fifth grade teachers, she does ‘field trip Fridays,’ where she announces a country, and the kids are pretty much let loose and they go and they research that country, and they each bring a particular fact, and she creates this poster of everything that the kids found about that country. So they’ve had a good time with that. And then this past Thursday, we had a global schools’ tasting- a global tasting party, where students from the local technical school- career and technical center for ABSS, they catered the global tasting, and they created one to two dishes per continent that the kids could come in and try. And the kids really liked that- really liked it a lot.
Olivia [00:16:06] Have you seen, with the Global Passport Program, any students that maybe are from the area that they’re studying kind of step forward and help lead those projects or maybe explain something about- something they remembered or an experience they had?
Elizabeth Price: No, I don’t think so. Last year we did- we always do a big Splash performance right before our first intersession in September. And last year the fifth graders- they all represented the country that their relatives came from, because we were doing ‘Spanish is Spoken Here,’ talking about how Spanish is spoken on every single continent. So they brought in their own heritage with that, but typically no. It’s pretty much teacher-directed.
Olivia [00:17:04] What other schools have a similar program? Are there any in this area?
Elizabeth Price: Oh yeah: Alexander Wilson [Elementary School], E.M. Yoder [Elementary School], Elon [Elementary School], Eastlawn [Elementary School], and Smith [Elementary School].
Olivia: I remember doing a similar program- I went to Joyner Elementary, which is Spanish-immersion in Raleigh. And we focused more on Central and South American countries, but we would make the flags in art class, and perform a dance, and I always thought that was very interesting.
Olivia [00:17:38] And this should have been one of my first questions, but is Spanish a requirement for students, at this school, to take every year?
Elizabeth Price: No.
Olivia [00:17:45] So there’s a Spanish teacher for each grade, but the classes are optional?
Elizabeth Price: Well the Spanish teachers teach our Spanish-immersion program.
Olivia: Oh, okay.
Elizabeth Price: Yeah.
Olivia [00:17:55] So a Spanish class would serve as --
Elizabeth Price: They just go to-- she’s a licensed regular Kinder- Elementary teacher. She just does it all in Spanish. So, there’s very few schools left that have- because that’s what I used to teach- it’s like a special. Spanish is a special. Very very few schools have that left. So, you know, I know my staff would be very interested in having that if we could do that, but I think we have other pressing needs that we need to look at first.
Olivia [00:18:31] And for any- do you all have a option on the website to share the same material in Spanish? Is it a bilingual website for the school?
Elizabeth Price: No. I don’t think so.
Olivia: It is not? Okay. Let’s see … That may be all of the questions that I have for you. Is there anything else that you’d like to share or expand on?
Elizabeth Price: I don’t think so. I mean, it’s- that’s one of the reasons why I just really appreciate this area, this community, this school. It’s a real good- it’s just the diversity, and the ability for kids to look past the differences and celebrate those differences- that just is very special to me.
Olivia [00:19:36] I actually was curious- for students who come here speaking Spanish, or have recently moved to the United States, do you know- are there any areas in particular that they come from? Have you seen --
Elizabeth Price: It’s mainly Mexico. And it’s mainly in the- let me think--
Olivia: I know Alamance County has a significant population of people from the state of Guanajuato.
Elizabeth Price: Yeah, maybe that’s it. It’s where the- it’s very rural. So maybe the- for some reason I can’t- this has left my mind. Because I know we’ve had some people from Michoacán. But primarily from rural Mexico, the indigenous Indians, is what we’ve seen.
Olivia: Interesting.
Elizabeth Price: Now here lately, you know- we have had kids who have lived here their whole lives coming in, but they’ll come in speaking no English, because they’ve just been with mom, or dad, or babysitter. And so they only know Spanish. But then here lately, the kids that we’ve had have been more from Central America I think, Honduras, Guatemala- you know, places like that have been the most recent migrations. But the predominant number of them came from Mexico.
Olivia [00:21:15] Have you seen the community evolve in your ten years here? Has there been maybe more migration which has led to more Spanish-speaking services around or restaurants, or families in the school, or less?
Elizabeth Price: I think we’ve seen less actually. I mean especially, you know when, the local sheriff was involved with I.C.E. [Immigration and Customs Enforcement] and everything. More and more families were leaving.
Olivia: Leaving the area in general?
Elizabeth Price: Mhmm. Yeah. So right now, you know with the political climate the way that it is, I’m expecting more to leave. And I think, you know, I think they’ll go back to Mexico, is what I think they’ll do, but we shall wait and see.
Olivia: Well that’s all I have for you, thank you so much for meeting with me.
Elizabeth Price: No problem!
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Elizabeth Price, the principal of South Graham Elementary School, met with Olivia Joyner to discuss the programs available at the school for students who come to the school speaking English as a second language, or not at all. South Graham, in an effort to promote global consciousness, inclusivity, and the value of being able to speak multiple languages, is a school that offers not only ESL (English as a Second Language) classes, but also a dual-language-immersion program, and is credited as a Global Passport School. Principal Price hopes that students will graduate from the school having not only a deeper understanding of world cultures, but additionally a realization of the benefits of being able to speak more than one language. She recognizes that many individuals who live in North Carolina, and the United States speak Spanish, and therefore believes being able to understand and speak the language is a useful tool.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
11 April 2017
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
R0869_Audio.mp3
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/27409">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/b3b90e6cdbf36bb567e73a3816a43d9c.mp3
a9c447abcd7a63d38ea24ad4286d9522
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/91f6229ee59aa2a4bd8b6288667aa800.pdf
98afb61691c87137eec2f0788a38379d
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0704
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
17 April 2014
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Halperín, Laura.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Professors
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1974
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Argentina
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Chapel Hill -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-63.616671999999994 -38.416097),1974,1;POINT(-79.05584450000003 35.9131996),2006,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Smith, Janell.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Laura Halperin is an assistant professor of English and comparative literature at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, where she researches contemporary Latina/o literatures and cultures. She is currently working on a book project, which focuses on representations of harm in late twentieth century Latina novels and memoirs. Her other research interests include Latinas/os and education, access to education, debates surrounding English-Only policies and bilingual or multilingual education, and censorship of Latina/o texts in school libraries and classrooms. Professor Halperin who was hired as a professor at UNC after receiving a diversity fellowship, discusses her areas of study, as well as her personal experience as a Latina in higher education. Halperin explains how fortunate she has been to face relatively little adversity as a result of her ethnicity as a Latina minority in higher education institutions. She attributes some of her experience to her fairer skin, as she is a lighter skin Argentinian. This interview emphasizes the ways in which education and access to job opportunities play an important role in migrants’ lives, and also explores issues of race and diversity.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Laura Halperin by Janell Smith, 17 April 2014, R-0704, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/20991
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Identity; Racism and discrimination; Integration and segregation
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Janell Smith: Okay, this is Janell Smith in Hannah Gill’s global 382 class. I am here today, April 17, a Thursday of 2014, with Professor Laura Halperin. We are in Greenlaw building - Greenlaw Hall - room 403 at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. It’s about 12:26 in the afternoon and we are going to start our interview right now. So thank you, Professor Halperin, for speaking with me and taking time out of your schedule to talk with me. I kind of just want to start the interview with, “How did you get to UNC?” How did you get to professorhood?
Laura Halperin: Okay. Well, I came here straight from graduate school. I did my graduate work at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor. I started here on a post-doc. I received the Carolina Post-doctoral Fellowship for Faculty Diversity, which is a two year post-doctoral program and was fortunate enough to have that turn into a tenure-track position.
JS: Can you explain a little bit what that fellow is about?
LH: Yes, absolutely. It’s an amazing post-doctoral program similar to - for instance, in the University of California system, there’s a Carolina - or not Carolina, I’m sorry - UC president’s post-doctoral fellowship. What these fellowships are, are opportunities once people finish their PhDs. They are - here at Carolina it’s a two year, post-doctoral fellowship. It is across the university. So each year, different people apply for post-doctoral fellowships in different departments. It is through the Vice Chancellor’s office for Research and Economic Development. It is designed to promote diversity at the University, in terms of faculty. So, ideally, the way the program is envisioned is for people to start their post-doctoral fellowship with the hope that it will eventually turn into a tenured-track position. It’s not always guaranteed. It varies from one department to another. But, the hope is that, eventually, it will lead to a departmental position down the road. Right now the program has been reconfigured slightly different. The program now, as it exists, is smaller - quite a bit smaller than it was when I was a fellow. When I was a fellow there were ten post-docs across the span of two cohorts. Since it was a two-year program, sometimes there were four post-docs in my cohort, six in a previous. But sometimes that varied, those numbers vary. Now, from what I understand, that number has been cut from ten to five I believe, substantially because of funding, I think, questions. The way the post-doctoral program works is people apply. They indicate the departments where they would like to be housed. They can apply to more than one department. Then, what the post-doctoral program does is it sorts through all of the different application they receives. Then they send off all of the applications to the respective departments where the post-docs indicated that they would like to be housed. Each department then reads through all of the applications that they get and based on those applications can nominate up to two individuals, saying we would like to have this person and or this person, but no more than two. What the department really needs to articulate there is why is there a need to have someone who works in that particular field of study: If there’s a gap that can be filled that isn’t really currently being met or if there’s an area where a department wants to see more faculty working in a particular area of study. Then, each department puts forth one or two names and then that goes back to the post-doctoral program. Then there’s a selection committee there compiled of different people from across the University. Then they sort through all of the different departments that have put forth names and then determine who gets the post-docs. Usually, there are a few hundred applicants and then for a certain number of positions. The goal really is not only to increase diversity in terms of the racial and ethnic composition of the faculty, but ideally, I think also, folks who work in areas of study that are underserved and underrepresented in order to increase that type of diversity at the University so that it’s diversity in multiple arenas. Originally, the post-doc program was developed primarily for African American scholars and that has expanded over time to also include members of other racial and ethnic groups.
JS: I wonder if soon it’ll change for gender or sexual orientation or things of that nature.
LH: Yeah. I think there definitely are certain departs that are primarily male or sexual orientation, ability - I think there are different ways of conceiving the term diversity.
JS: And so, you said that departments had to explain why there’s a need.
LH: The department chair will write a letter.
JS: And so, in your case, what do you think the need was?
LH: We have the program in Latino Studies, which is housed in the English department. At the time when I applied to the post-doctoral program, the only faculty member in this department who worked in Latino Studies is the director of the program, Maria de Guzman. This is a program that - the Latino Studies, here at UNC, is the first Latino Studies program in the Southeast. North Carolina’s a state with the fastest growing Latino population. When you put those things together, I think there definitely was a need for more people working in this area.
JS: And how has it been working for the English department?
LH: It’s been great. It’s been wonderful. Yeah, absolutely wonderful. Folks here are really supportive and welcoming. I feel like, in general, it’s a really collegial environment so I’m incredibly fortunate.
JS: Did you ever face any hardships? Maybe that’s too strong of a word, but, difficulties? Maybe not when you first started the position, but, maybe, throughout the fellowship or even your post-doctorate degree? Did you face any hardships on account of being a Latina and being a minority in higher education?
LH: I will say for the most part, I’ve been incredibly fortunate and certainly here, at UNC and the English department, I’ve been incredibly fortunate. But, I do think that, and throughout my graduate career also, I will say though, that I know that especially speaking with friends who work at other universities and going to conferences where I am in touch with faculty who work at different universities, that’s not the case everywhere. I think part of that has to do with different university climates. But also, part of that has to do with the fact that I’m a light-skinned Latina, who’s Argentina American. If I were a darker skinned Latina from Mexico or from the Dominican Republic or something along those lines, would my experience be different? Most likely, yeah. I think that race makes a difference. Race makes a difference - race in terms of the visible phenotype - makes a big difference if we’re looking at race in that way, obviously we realize race as a construction. But, I think that makes a big difference. Now, are the experiences that faculty of color, regardless of what they look like, different? Yes. So I think it comes from, maybe, feeling obliged to and asked to and want to do more service work than other faculty maybe want to do. I think that in part has to do with different student organizations on campus - different Latino student organizations on campus - who have come and asked me to speak to their organizations. I love doing that. It’s an amazing opportunity, but, definitely, that’s a part of my job that other members of this faculty might not have. I think that’s a common trend across universities throughout the country in terms of service, in terms of the number of committees that people are asked to be on. Those are trends that we see across universities throughout the country. Unfortunately, the way the university systems work throughout the country is that for professors it’s really a ‘publish or perish’ model. I think that this department, in particular, has been really wonderful in recognizing that service is also incredibly important. That’s not the case of all departments and that’s not the case in a lot of places throughout the country, where service is undervalued and, yet, expected. If faculty members are being asked to do more service - if faculty of color are being asked to do more service than other faculty - then there’s less time to publish. And service doesn’t necessarily come in visible ways. If faculty are meeting with students on a more regular basis that’s time away from publishing. I think that something needs to be addressed, in terms of what work gets rewarded. I think that’s a national issue that merits attention.
JS: Do you feel like this University does a good job of recognizing?
LH: I hope so. (Laughs) I’m not up for tenure yet, so hopefully. Knock on wood. I do think this also varies from one department to the other. Every department has its own culture and I think, in general, my experience has been that people in this department really appreciate it when people show a vested commitment to the university in some way. I would like to think that this department is attuned to it in ways that make me feel lucky to be part of this department.
JS: What made you want to pursue teaching and being a professor?
LH: Okay. I didn’t know what I wanted to do right after college. I thought I wanted to do something totally different actually. I thought I wanted to go to law school. (Laughs). Is that what you’re thinking? Okay. (More laughter). I thought I wanted to go to law school and either practice international law or civil rights law or something where I was doing my part to make this world a better place. But, I knew I wanted to teach at some point in my life. While I was in college, there was one year when I volunteered at a restraining office helping survivors of intimate partner violence file restraining orders against their batterers. That was part of a public policy course that I took that there was a major service component and then I continued doing that service throughout the year, which I feel like gave me a little insight into how the legal system works. There wasn’t a pre-law thing where I went to school, but I took classes that were related to law to get a sense of what that experience would be like. And then I also volunteered one summer at a non-profit organization outside of D.C., helping migrants file for political asylum. What I realized during that - and also acting as a translator and interpreting documents, translating documents - as valuable as both of those experiences were, I felt…depressed isn’t quite the right word, but I felt like no matter how hard I tried or no matter what I did or what I saw the people, who actually had law degrees, were doing, I felt like every step forward almost felt like one step forward, two step backwards, instead of two step forwards, one step backwards. Most of the migrants whose claims I helped filed, I was told that those were most likely going to be dismissed as frivolous claims and those migrants were going to be sent back to their home countries even though they lived in fear for their lives if they were to return because they were political refugees. And so, that was incredibly frustrating to feel like, well, what type of justice is there in that. Same type of situation when working at the restraining office, when I realized that the majority of predominantly women, who came into the office, were most likely to resend their restraining orders and go back to living in situations where they were being abused on a regular basis. That’s not to minimize the work I felt like I was doing, but it felt like I wasn’t making the difference I wanted to make. I still was convinced that maybe I could do that, so I decided to apply for teaching positions right after college, thinking I would teach for a year or two after college and then go to law school. (Laughs) And we can talk more about this later because it sounds like we have some similarities here. So I did. I got a job teaching fourth through sixth grade and in a month into teaching, I realized that in the classroom I was making the type of difference I wanted to make and I could see it in a way that I couldn’t see, at least not tangibly so, in my experiences working in something related to the legal profession. I realized law was not for me because I needed to be able to see the difference. But then I wasn’t sure. I taught for three years while trying to figure out what I wanted to do. I taught sixth grade English and fourth, fifth and sixth grade Spanish. Then I realized that I wanted to go to graduate school and kind of combine some of my favorite components from teaching grade school. So, there was one unit that we taught in sixth grade English on Mildred Taylor’s, “Roll of Thunder Hear my Cry.” It’s a great book and we combined that unit. What we did was we included a little bit of historical background in that unit. With the mix of history and literature and talking about questions of social justice in relation to literature - that combined with teaching Spanish and teaching about culture, as well as language but teaching culture, too, and different cultures that speak Spanish; and also serving as one of the faculty mentors to a middle school student, completely voluntary middles school student group called “United, Unite Now in Tolerance and Equality,” that was designed to get students to just increase awareness about issues affecting people of color. Combining all three of those aspects of the job that really were my favorite parts of the job, I thought, “Alright, I want to go to grad school and I really want to focus on race, gender, ethnicity and literature in some capacity or another.” It was really huge and broad and amorphous at the time.
Somehow, despite how huge that was, I got in grad school. My first semester in grad school I realized I wanted to focus on Latino literature. That’s kind of the journey I took to get there.
JS: Were you ever impacted by the migration history of your family, in terms of in school, integrating or assimilating to American culture?
LH: I think so, although not in the ways we’ve read about in class. My experience was very different and again I think in part that has to do with the fact that I’m very light skinned; with the fact that we moved to the U.S. when I was two. Even now when people meet me they see me and they hear me speak, and they’re like, “But you don’t have an accent.” And I want to say, “Well, yes I do. We all have accents.” What they’re meaning is that you don’t have an accent that sounds different and you don’t look different and so those are racialized assumptions that they have when they’re asking questions like that. I didn’t have those experiences and I also didn’t live in a community with a huge number of Latinos and I didn’t go to school with a lot of Latinos. I did go to Argentine school every Saturday from first grade through sixth grade, which made my experience different. My difference is - where I felt it was in the fact that I went to school six days a week, instead of five, because when we moved to the states my parents thought we were only going to be here for a few years. The idea was we were going to move back to Argentina, so they sent me and my sister to Argentine schools on Saturday in order to keep up with language and history.The curriculum at the school was designed so that in one day you would cover what you would be covered in a week in school in Argentina so that if you went back you wouldn’t have to repeat a year.
JS: Where was this?
LH: This was outside of the D.C. area. In that sense my experience was different because my friends would have slumber parties or they would wake up and do sporting events or watch Saturday morning cartoons or something like that and I missed out on all of that growing up. At the time I bitterly complained, now I’m incredibly grateful, but at the time I complained. So, in that environment I was surrounded with a lot of Argentinians or Argentinian Americans, but there weren’t Latinos from different cultural backgrounds. So that made my experience different from the peers with whom I went to school five days a week. But, I guess there were other ways in which I think my experience was different. Apparently, I don’t remember this because I was so little, but my mom says when I started kindergarten or pre-k or something like that I just kept saying no one understands me. Of course I don’t remember that because I was so young, but I felt like no one understood me. Part of it was related to my name. I would introduce myself and my parents - my whole family - called me Louda, and I would introuduce myself and encounter a wall. My peers would say, “What? I can’t say that.” Then, I don’t remember if I just eventually said okay you can call me Laura or if that name was imposed on me and I just kind of adopted it while growing up. Now I assert myself as Louda, but at time it was this dual type identity where I was Laura at school or with my classmates, Monday through Friday, but I was Louda at home and Louda on Saturdays in Argentine schools and with the friends I had there. So that was a difference. Then there were just some other differences in terms of kids at school and at grade school bringing cupcakes for their birthdays. That’s not really something you do in Argentina and we didn’t bake in my household. So we would bring merengues with dulce leche, I think one year. Then we started bring empanadas. There was a way in which - it was interesting because my peers loved empanadas - but it marked me as different in a way, that I realize later, years later now that I have the analytical tools, there was a way in which I was exoctized for that. Peers would say that they wanted to be in my class, but really just because they wanted to have empanadas on my birthday, but still marking me as different. Then I think, and I don’t know if this has to do with me being a Latina or not, or just the different ways in which I was raised versus the ways in which my peers were raised, but certaintly at that junior high school age, which can be a tricky age for everyone, it was not cool for girls to speak. It was not cool for girls to participate. It was cool for girls to be dumb and for boys to be the one to participate. I don’t know if this has to do with coming from a different coming from a different country or not, but I couldn’t relate to that mentality. I’m not going to play dumb, I mean I might not get a concept, but I’m not going to play dumb in order to pretend I don’t understand a concept. That led to a major differentiation between me and my peers and led to some - I guess at the time it was called teasing, now it would probably be called bullying. I don’t know if it had to do with, I don’t know, I don’t know. I think partly, probably. I think, speaking with friends who have gone on to pursue PhDs who are Latinas, for them they said yeah, “We have an immigrant work ethic.” I wouldn’t necessarily want to generalize in that way but perhaps that played into it. I don’t know.
JS: Were you the only Latino in your class?
LH: There were two Latino boys in my class - no three. Three Latino boys and me.
JS: Were they of the same skin color, characteristics -
LH: They were all fairly light-skinned Latinos, some more brown than others, but they were all failry light-skinned Latinos as well. But it was a privileged environment. I should say I went to private school because I think that makes a big difference also. I did feel like my peers were really privileged in a way that I didn’t understand and in a way that I think to this day still affects my mother, interestingly. In that, she feels like her house is like the dog house compared to that of so many classmates I had growing up, who lived in huge - I mean I would call them mansions.
JS: What side of outside of D.C. were you in?
LH: I lived on the Maryland side, but I went to school on the Virginia side.
JS: Maryland. Montegomery County?
LH: Montegomery County, yes. You’re familiar with the area. (Laughter) I told my mom, “No, we acutally have a really nice house. It’s just these people live in mansions and I never could get used to that, even the friends that I made came were rarely ones that came from households with such privilege. For the most part I tended to feel more akin with people - I don’t know I just felt like I connected more with people who were in private school because they were on financial aid or had some kind of scholarship and couldn’t connect to this privilege mentality.
JS: Do you think the boys had similar struggles or you couldn’t tell?
LH: I don’t know. I don’t know. Yeah, I don’t know.
JS: In that time of girls-should-be-quiet-and-play-dumb and guys-have-to-know-it-all, was there ever interaction between you guys or were you all separated as well?
LH: What do you mean?
JS: Separated by the gender roles that you had to assume? Did that inhibit or limit social interaction between you and the other Latino boys?
LH: Oh. I wouldn’t say I had much interaction with the other Latino boys necessarily, but I think a lot of that had to do with a lot of the girls who interacted with boys in general were the ones who played dumb. The boys who didn’t really adhere to that stuck with boys, and the girls who didn’t adhere to that stuck with boys.
JS: I was just trying to understand the dynamics. Like did you guys ever come together and describe or relate some of the differences that you were having?
LH: No, it would be interesting as an adult now to do that, but I don’t know.
JS: Were any of your teachers Latino?
LH: Growing up in Argentine school, yes. (laughs) I don’t think so.
JS: Do you think that influenced you in any way?
LH: I’m trying to even think. I only remember one African American woman math teacher in high school. That’s it, I mean otherwise really my teachers were white, Anglo- women and men. I’m sure that influenced me and I’m sure that influenced the way they handled certain situations.
Yeah, it was until college. That was the first time I felt like I fit in.
JS: What do you mean by fit in?
LH: Where I could be myself. Where I could be myself. Where there were people around me who had similar ideas. Where I went to a place where education was something that was valued. Where we could have conversations until 4 a.m. in the dorms. Sometimes they were silly, sometimes they were deep. I also went to a school that didn’t have core requirements, other than the ones for your major. What that meant was pretty much every class that students took everyone wanted to be in the class. That lent itself to an amazing environment in terms of student really taking charge of their own education. I think that was an amazing thing probably for professors and students alike.
I think for all those reasons that was the first time I really felt like I fit in. Also, wasn’t an environment where I was surrounded with people from privileged backgrounds: there were people from all sorts of different backgrounds there. Even though it was a private university, there were people from all different backgrounds there, of all colors and it was an amazing environment. That’s where I felt like I finally found myself.
JS: I was going to say was it the diversity in college - the diversity of ideas and people - that really helped you come into your own.
LH: Yes, for sure.
JS: I guess my last question is, how do you define diversity, especially within the context of faculty diversity? Is it numbers? Is it race? Is it concrete? Or, is it a conglomerate of different things?
LH: I think it’s a lot of different things. I think part of it is numbers. To say otherwise, I think, would probably be false. But, I don’t think numbers are everything. Like we talked about at the start of the semester there can be a minority-majority. I think part of it has to do with which people are in positions of power because that also makes a big difference. Even if the four to six percent that you mentioned [referring to the four to six percent of Latinos who make up faculty of highere education institutions nationwide, which was discussed prior to recording.] goes up to twenty percent - I’m throwing out a random number - what does it mean if those in position of power are at two percent? So I think that’s a big part of it who has power. Of those four to six percent how many have tenure and how many are tenure-track or fix term? So that’s something else to thing about.
I think that, as you mentioned, diversity comes in all sorts of different ways. It comes with respect to questions of race, questions of ethnicity, questions of gender, sexuality, ability. It also comes with being open-minded and being willing to see places change and move forward based on changing demographics, especially here at a state school. What are the states changing demographics? What does it means if the demographics of the state are drastically different from the demographics of the faculty? What message does that send? So I think that’s part of it. But, I think it’s a lot of different things. I think it’s about what types of opportunities are made available and who has access to those opportunities.
JS: What are the implications that you think diversity has on a university setting?
LH: I think that diversity is a term that often gets used in a way that could potentially be tokenizing. That’s where I would say, yes numbers matter, but it’s not just about numbers. It’s also about politics. It’s also about the mentality that one brings in and the willingness to change and the willingness to be an ally of people to all different walks of life. I think diversity in its - and I don’t want to use the word truest because I have problems with that word - diversity in its best sense is about that. It’s about being open to people of different walks of life and recognizing that an attention to one particular group’s needs can only benefit everyone, so that there’s a relationship between the individual and the collective; an individual group’s need and a collective group. I think, for instance, with respect to Latino Studies, I think anyone can benefit from Latino Studies here at UNC. While a number of Latino students come and flock to the classes, its not just Latino students who are coming to flock and take the classes. I think that by the same token, having these types of classes allows Latino students to feel like, oh, they finally can see themselves. They finally can see themselves in history, in literature, in all sorts of areas of studies that maybe they hadn’t seen themselves in other courses they had previously taken. I think it’s really important for students to be able to identify with the material so that there isn’t a huge disconnect. I think once students are identified they are more likely to become committed. And once students in general are committed and invested in their education that leads to a better educational experience for everyone. I think the same could be true of learning about different groups, of realizing, “Oh my gosh, I didn’t even realize that this other group has gone through all of this.” And so the more we learn, the more informed we are and the more equipped we to make the types of changes we feel are necessary and, I guess to quote Gandhi as cliché as that might be, to be the change we want to see in the world.
JS: Do you feel like your position as a professor allows other Latinos on campus to see themselves.
LH: Yes. I do. I do. I say that and I feel like I can say that confidently, mostly because of students who come and ask me to speak to different student organizations, and then students who have come up to me after those talks come up to me and said, “Okay, now I want to take one of your courses,” and have indicated as much in terms of saying okay, finally, maybe this is something I can do with my life. I think that has to do with some of the conversations we’ve been having when we just finished reading, “A Home on the Field.” What does it mean if there’s a cycle where a population continually sees members of that population working in types of sectors of the labor population that invariably affects future generations in terms of what they might envision their futures looking like. I think the more of a presence that there is of Latino faculty, the more likely it is that those percentages will rise.
JS: Well, with that, I think we’re finished.
LH: Okay, great.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Profesores
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Laura Halperin es profesora asistente en Inglés y Literatura Comparativa en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill, donde investiga literaturas y culturas latinas contemporáneas. Actualmente ella está trabajando en un libro que se enfoca en las representaciones del daño en las novelas y memorias latinas de fines de siglo XX. Sus otros intereses académicos incluyen: latinas y latinos y educación, acceso a educación, los debates en educación sobre la enseñanza exclusiva del inglés versus la educación bilingüe o multilingüe y la censura de textos latinos en las bibliotecas y aulas de escuelas. La profesora Halperin, quien fue contratada en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill después de recibir una beca universitaria para aumentar la diversidad en el profesorado, discute sus áreas de investigación y su experiencia personal de ser latina en la educación superior. Ella explica lo afortunada que ha sido de no enfrentar mucha adversidad al ser de una minoría latina en instituciones de educación superior. Ella atribuye parte de su experiencia a su piel clara, ya que es una argentina rubia. Esta entrevista enfatiza las maneras en que la educación y el acceso a oportunidades de trabajo juegan papeles importantes en las vidas de migrantes y también explora asuntos de raza y diversidad.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Laura Halperin por Janell Smith, 17 Abril 2014, R-0704, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de North Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Identidad; Racismo y discriminación; Integración y segregación
Es: Transcripción
Janell Smith: Okay, this is Janell Smith in Hannah Gill’s global 382 class. I am here today, April 17, a Thursday of 2014, with Professor Laura Halperin. We are in Greenlaw building - Greenlaw Hall - room 403 at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. It’s about 12:26 in the afternoon and we are going to start our interview right now. So thank you, Professor Halperin, for speaking with me and taking time out of your schedule to talk with me. I kind of just want to start the interview with, “How did you get to UNC?” How did you get to professorhood?
Laura Halperin: Okay. Well, I came here straight from graduate school. I did my graduate work at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor. I started here on a post-doc. I received the Carolina Post-doctoral Fellowship for Faculty Diversity, which is a two year post-doctoral program and was fortunate enough to have that turn into a tenure-track position.
JS: Can you explain a little bit what that fellow is about?
LH: Yes, absolutely. It’s an amazing post-doctoral program similar to - for instance, in the University of California system, there’s a Carolina - or not Carolina, I’m sorry - UC president’s post-doctoral fellowship. What these fellowships are, are opportunities once people finish their PhDs. They are - here at Carolina it’s a two year, post-doctoral fellowship. It is across the university. So each year, different people apply for post-doctoral fellowships in different departments. It is through the Vice Chancellor’s office for Research and Economic Development. It is designed to promote diversity at the University, in terms of faculty. So, ideally, the way the program is envisioned is for people to start their post-doctoral fellowship with the hope that it will eventually turn into a tenured-track position. It’s not always guaranteed. It varies from one department to another. But, the hope is that, eventually, it will lead to a departmental position down the road. Right now the program has been reconfigured slightly different. The program now, as it exists, is smaller - quite a bit smaller than it was when I was a fellow. When I was a fellow there were ten post-docs across the span of two cohorts. Since it was a two-year program, sometimes there were four post-docs in my cohort, six in a previous. But sometimes that varied, those numbers vary. Now, from what I understand, that number has been cut from ten to five I believe, substantially because of funding, I think, questions. The way the post-doctoral program works is people apply. They indicate the departments where they would like to be housed. They can apply to more than one department. Then, what the post-doctoral program does is it sorts through all of the different application they receives. Then they send off all of the applications to the respective departments where the post-docs indicated that they would like to be housed. Each department then reads through all of the applications that they get and based on those applications can nominate up to two individuals, saying we would like to have this person and or this person, but no more than two. What the department really needs to articulate there is why is there a need to have someone who works in that particular field of study: If there’s a gap that can be filled that isn’t really currently being met or if there’s an area where a department wants to see more faculty working in a particular area of study. Then, each department puts forth one or two names and then that goes back to the post-doctoral program. Then there’s a selection committee there compiled of different people from across the University. Then they sort through all of the different departments that have put forth names and then determine who gets the post-docs. Usually, there are a few hundred applicants and then for a certain number of positions. The goal really is not only to increase diversity in terms of the racial and ethnic composition of the faculty, but ideally, I think also, folks who work in areas of study that are underserved and underrepresented in order to increase that type of diversity at the University so that it’s diversity in multiple arenas. Originally, the post-doc program was developed primarily for African American scholars and that has expanded over time to also include members of other racial and ethnic groups.
JS: I wonder if soon it’ll change for gender or sexual orientation or things of that nature.
LH: Yeah. I think there definitely are certain departs that are primarily male or sexual orientation, ability - I think there are different ways of conceiving the term diversity.
JS: And so, you said that departments had to explain why there’s a need.
LH: The department chair will write a letter.
JS: And so, in your case, what do you think the need was?
LH: We have the program in Latino Studies, which is housed in the English department. At the time when I applied to the post-doctoral program, the only faculty member in this department who worked in Latino Studies is the director of the program, Maria de Guzman. This is a program that - the Latino Studies, here at UNC, is the first Latino Studies program in the Southeast. North Carolina’s a state with the fastest growing Latino population. When you put those things together, I think there definitely was a need for more people working in this area.
JS: And how has it been working for the English department?
LH: It’s been great. It’s been wonderful. Yeah, absolutely wonderful. Folks here are really supportive and welcoming. I feel like, in general, it’s a really collegial environment so I’m incredibly fortunate.
JS: Did you ever face any hardships? Maybe that’s too strong of a word, but, difficulties? Maybe not when you first started the position, but, maybe, throughout the fellowship or even your post-doctorate degree? Did you face any hardships on account of being a Latina and being a minority in higher education?
LH: I will say for the most part, I’ve been incredibly fortunate and certainly here, at UNC and the English department, I’ve been incredibly fortunate. But, I do think that, and throughout my graduate career also, I will say though, that I know that especially speaking with friends who work at other universities and going to conferences where I am in touch with faculty who work at different universities, that’s not the case everywhere. I think part of that has to do with different university climates. But also, part of that has to do with the fact that I’m a light-skinned Latina, who’s Argentina American. If I were a darker skinned Latina from Mexico or from the Dominican Republic or something along those lines, would my experience be different? Most likely, yeah. I think that race makes a difference. Race makes a difference - race in terms of the visible phenotype - makes a big difference if we’re looking at race in that way, obviously we realize race as a construction. But, I think that makes a big difference. Now, are the experiences that faculty of color, regardless of what they look like, different? Yes. So I think it comes from, maybe, feeling obliged to and asked to and want to do more service work than other faculty maybe want to do. I think that in part has to do with different student organizations on campus - different Latino student organizations on campus - who have come and asked me to speak to their organizations. I love doing that. It’s an amazing opportunity, but, definitely, that’s a part of my job that other members of this faculty might not have. I think that’s a common trend across universities throughout the country in terms of service, in terms of the number of committees that people are asked to be on. Those are trends that we see across universities throughout the country. Unfortunately, the way the university systems work throughout the country is that for professors it’s really a ‘publish or perish’ model. I think that this department, in particular, has been really wonderful in recognizing that service is also incredibly important. That’s not the case of all departments and that’s not the case in a lot of places throughout the country, where service is undervalued and, yet, expected. If faculty members are being asked to do more service - if faculty of color are being asked to do more service than other faculty - then there’s less time to publish. And service doesn’t necessarily come in visible ways. If faculty are meeting with students on a more regular basis that’s time away from publishing. I think that something needs to be addressed, in terms of what work gets rewarded. I think that’s a national issue that merits attention.
JS: Do you feel like this University does a good job of recognizing?
LH: I hope so. (Laughs) I’m not up for tenure yet, so hopefully. Knock on wood. I do think this also varies from one department to the other. Every department has its own culture and I think, in general, my experience has been that people in this department really appreciate it when people show a vested commitment to the university in some way. I would like to think that this department is attuned to it in ways that make me feel lucky to be part of this department.
JS: What made you want to pursue teaching and being a professor?
LH: Okay. I didn’t know what I wanted to do right after college. I thought I wanted to do something totally different actually. I thought I wanted to go to law school. (Laughs). Is that what you’re thinking? Okay. (More laughter). I thought I wanted to go to law school and either practice international law or civil rights law or something where I was doing my part to make this world a better place. But, I knew I wanted to teach at some point in my life. While I was in college, there was one year when I volunteered at a restraining office helping survivors of intimate partner violence file restraining orders against their batterers. That was part of a public policy course that I took that there was a major service component and then I continued doing that service throughout the year, which I feel like gave me a little insight into how the legal system works. There wasn’t a pre-law thing where I went to school, but I took classes that were related to law to get a sense of what that experience would be like. And then I also volunteered one summer at a non-profit organization outside of D.C., helping migrants file for political asylum. What I realized during that - and also acting as a translator and interpreting documents, translating documents - as valuable as both of those experiences were, I felt…depressed isn’t quite the right word, but I felt like no matter how hard I tried or no matter what I did or what I saw the people, who actually had law degrees, were doing, I felt like every step forward almost felt like one step forward, two step backwards, instead of two step forwards, one step backwards. Most of the migrants whose claims I helped filed, I was told that those were most likely going to be dismissed as frivolous claims and those migrants were going to be sent back to their home countries even though they lived in fear for their lives if they were to return because they were political refugees. And so, that was incredibly frustrating to feel like, well, what type of justice is there in that. Same type of situation when working at the restraining office, when I realized that the majority of predominantly women, who came into the office, were most likely to resend their restraining orders and go back to living in situations where they were being abused on a regular basis. That’s not to minimize the work I felt like I was doing, but it felt like I wasn’t making the difference I wanted to make. I still was convinced that maybe I could do that, so I decided to apply for teaching positions right after college, thinking I would teach for a year or two after college and then go to law school. (Laughs) And we can talk more about this later because it sounds like we have some similarities here. So I did. I got a job teaching fourth through sixth grade and in a month into teaching, I realized that in the classroom I was making the type of difference I wanted to make and I could see it in a way that I couldn’t see, at least not tangibly so, in my experiences working in something related to the legal profession. I realized law was not for me because I needed to be able to see the difference. But then I wasn’t sure. I taught for three years while trying to figure out what I wanted to do. I taught sixth grade English and fourth, fifth and sixth grade Spanish. Then I realized that I wanted to go to graduate school and kind of combine some of my favorite components from teaching grade school. So, there was one unit that we taught in sixth grade English on Mildred Taylor’s, “Roll of Thunder Hear my Cry.” It’s a great book and we combined that unit. What we did was we included a little bit of historical background in that unit. With the mix of history and literature and talking about questions of social justice in relation to literature - that combined with teaching Spanish and teaching about culture, as well as language but teaching culture, too, and different cultures that speak Spanish; and also serving as one of the faculty mentors to a middle school student, completely voluntary middles school student group called “United, Unite Now in Tolerance and Equality,” that was designed to get students to just increase awareness about issues affecting people of color. Combining all three of those aspects of the job that really were my favorite parts of the job, I thought, “Alright, I want to go to grad school and I really want to focus on race, gender, ethnicity and literature in some capacity or another.” It was really huge and broad and amorphous at the time.
Somehow, despite how huge that was, I got in grad school. My first semester in grad school I realized I wanted to focus on Latino literature. That’s kind of the journey I took to get there.
JS: Were you ever impacted by the migration history of your family, in terms of in school, integrating or assimilating to American culture?
LH: I think so, although not in the ways we’ve read about in class. My experience was very different and again I think in part that has to do with the fact that I’m very light skinned; with the fact that we moved to the U.S. when I was two. Even now when people meet me they see me and they hear me speak, and they’re like, “But you don’t have an accent.” And I want to say, “Well, yes I do. We all have accents.” What they’re meaning is that you don’t have an accent that sounds different and you don’t look different and so those are racialized assumptions that they have when they’re asking questions like that. I didn’t have those experiences and I also didn’t live in a community with a huge number of Latinos and I didn’t go to school with a lot of Latinos. I did go to Argentine school every Saturday from first grade through sixth grade, which made my experience different. My difference is - where I felt it was in the fact that I went to school six days a week, instead of five, because when we moved to the states my parents thought we were only going to be here for a few years. The idea was we were going to move back to Argentina, so they sent me and my sister to Argentine schools on Saturday in order to keep up with language and history.The curriculum at the school was designed so that in one day you would cover what you would be covered in a week in school in Argentina so that if you went back you wouldn’t have to repeat a year.
JS: Where was this?
LH: This was outside of the D.C. area. In that sense my experience was different because my friends would have slumber parties or they would wake up and do sporting events or watch Saturday morning cartoons or something like that and I missed out on all of that growing up. At the time I bitterly complained, now I’m incredibly grateful, but at the time I complained. So, in that environment I was surrounded with a lot of Argentinians or Argentinian Americans, but there weren’t Latinos from different cultural backgrounds. So that made my experience different from the peers with whom I went to school five days a week. But, I guess there were other ways in which I think my experience was different. Apparently, I don’t remember this because I was so little, but my mom says when I started kindergarten or pre-k or something like that I just kept saying no one understands me. Of course I don’t remember that because I was so young, but I felt like no one understood me. Part of it was related to my name. I would introduce myself and my parents - my whole family - called me Louda, and I would introuduce myself and encounter a wall. My peers would say, “What? I can’t say that.” Then, I don’t remember if I just eventually said okay you can call me Laura or if that name was imposed on me and I just kind of adopted it while growing up. Now I assert myself as Louda, but at time it was this dual type identity where I was Laura at school or with my classmates, Monday through Friday, but I was Louda at home and Louda on Saturdays in Argentine schools and with the friends I had there. So that was a difference. Then there were just some other differences in terms of kids at school and at grade school bringing cupcakes for their birthdays. That’s not really something you do in Argentina and we didn’t bake in my household. So we would bring merengues with dulce leche, I think one year. Then we started bring empanadas. There was a way in which - it was interesting because my peers loved empanadas - but it marked me as different in a way, that I realize later, years later now that I have the analytical tools, there was a way in which I was exoctized for that. Peers would say that they wanted to be in my class, but really just because they wanted to have empanadas on my birthday, but still marking me as different. Then I think, and I don’t know if this has to do with me being a Latina or not, or just the different ways in which I was raised versus the ways in which my peers were raised, but certaintly at that junior high school age, which can be a tricky age for everyone, it was not cool for girls to speak. It was not cool for girls to participate. It was cool for girls to be dumb and for boys to be the one to participate. I don’t know if this has to do with coming from a different coming from a different country or not, but I couldn’t relate to that mentality. I’m not going to play dumb, I mean I might not get a concept, but I’m not going to play dumb in order to pretend I don’t understand a concept. That led to a major differentiation between me and my peers and led to some - I guess at the time it was called teasing, now it would probably be called bullying. I don’t know if it had to do with, I don’t know, I don’t know. I think partly, probably. I think, speaking with friends who have gone on to pursue PhDs who are Latinas, for them they said yeah, “We have an immigrant work ethic.” I wouldn’t necessarily want to generalize in that way but perhaps that played into it. I don’t know.
JS: Were you the only Latino in your class?
LH: There were two Latino boys in my class - no three. Three Latino boys and me.
JS: Were they of the same skin color, characteristics -
LH: They were all fairly light-skinned Latinos, some more brown than others, but they were all failry light-skinned Latinos as well. But it was a privileged environment. I should say I went to private school because I think that makes a big difference also. I did feel like my peers were really privileged in a way that I didn’t understand and in a way that I think to this day still affects my mother, interestingly. In that, she feels like her house is like the dog house compared to that of so many classmates I had growing up, who lived in huge - I mean I would call them mansions.
JS: What side of outside of D.C. were you in?
LH: I lived on the Maryland side, but I went to school on the Virginia side.
JS: Maryland. Montegomery County?
LH: Montegomery County, yes. You’re familiar with the area. (Laughter) I told my mom, “No, we acutally have a really nice house. It’s just these people live in mansions and I never could get used to that, even the friends that I made came were rarely ones that came from households with such privilege. For the most part I tended to feel more akin with people - I don’t know I just felt like I connected more with people who were in private school because they were on financial aid or had some kind of scholarship and couldn’t connect to this privilege mentality.
JS: Do you think the boys had similar struggles or you couldn’t tell?
LH: I don’t know. I don’t know. Yeah, I don’t know.
JS: In that time of girls-should-be-quiet-and-play-dumb and guys-have-to-know-it-all, was there ever interaction between you guys or were you all separated as well?
LH: What do you mean?
JS: Separated by the gender roles that you had to assume? Did that inhibit or limit social interaction between you and the other Latino boys?
LH: Oh. I wouldn’t say I had much interaction with the other Latino boys necessarily, but I think a lot of that had to do with a lot of the girls who interacted with boys in general were the ones who played dumb. The boys who didn’t really adhere to that stuck with boys, and the girls who didn’t adhere to that stuck with boys.
JS: I was just trying to understand the dynamics. Like did you guys ever come together and describe or relate some of the differences that you were having?
LH: No, it would be interesting as an adult now to do that, but I don’t know.
JS: Were any of your teachers Latino?
LH: Growing up in Argentine school, yes. (laughs) I don’t think so.
JS: Do you think that influenced you in any way?
LH: I’m trying to even think. I only remember one African American woman math teacher in high school. That’s it, I mean otherwise really my teachers were white, Anglo- women and men. I’m sure that influenced me and I’m sure that influenced the way they handled certain situations.
Yeah, it was until college. That was the first time I felt like I fit in.
JS: What do you mean by fit in?
LH: Where I could be myself. Where I could be myself. Where there were people around me who had similar ideas. Where I went to a place where education was something that was valued. Where we could have conversations until 4 a.m. in the dorms. Sometimes they were silly, sometimes they were deep. I also went to a school that didn’t have core requirements, other than the ones for your major. What that meant was pretty much every class that students took everyone wanted to be in the class. That lent itself to an amazing environment in terms of student really taking charge of their own education. I think that was an amazing thing probably for professors and students alike.
I think for all those reasons that was the first time I really felt like I fit in. Also, wasn’t an environment where I was surrounded with people from privileged backgrounds: there were people from all sorts of different backgrounds there. Even though it was a private university, there were people from all different backgrounds there, of all colors and it was an amazing environment. That’s where I felt like I finally found myself.
JS: I was going to say was it the diversity in college - the diversity of ideas and people - that really helped you come into your own.
LH: Yes, for sure.
JS: I guess my last question is, how do you define diversity, especially within the context of faculty diversity? Is it numbers? Is it race? Is it concrete? Or, is it a conglomerate of different things?
LH: I think it’s a lot of different things. I think part of it is numbers. To say otherwise, I think, would probably be false. But, I don’t think numbers are everything. Like we talked about at the start of the semester there can be a minority-majority. I think part of it has to do with which people are in positions of power because that also makes a big difference. Even if the four to six percent that you mentioned [referring to the four to six percent of Latinos who make up faculty of highere education institutions nationwide, which was discussed prior to recording.] goes up to twenty percent - I’m throwing out a random number - what does it mean if those in position of power are at two percent? So I think that’s a big part of it who has power. Of those four to six percent how many have tenure and how many are tenure-track or fix term? So that’s something else to thing about.
I think that, as you mentioned, diversity comes in all sorts of different ways. It comes with respect to questions of race, questions of ethnicity, questions of gender, sexuality, ability. It also comes with being open-minded and being willing to see places change and move forward based on changing demographics, especially here at a state school. What are the states changing demographics? What does it means if the demographics of the state are drastically different from the demographics of the faculty? What message does that send? So I think that’s part of it. But, I think it’s a lot of different things. I think it’s about what types of opportunities are made available and who has access to those opportunities.
JS: What are the implications that you think diversity has on a university setting?
LH: I think that diversity is a term that often gets used in a way that could potentially be tokenizing. That’s where I would say, yes numbers matter, but it’s not just about numbers. It’s also about politics. It’s also about the mentality that one brings in and the willingness to change and the willingness to be an ally of people to all different walks of life. I think diversity in its - and I don’t want to use the word truest because I have problems with that word - diversity in its best sense is about that. It’s about being open to people of different walks of life and recognizing that an attention to one particular group’s needs can only benefit everyone, so that there’s a relationship between the individual and the collective; an individual group’s need and a collective group. I think, for instance, with respect to Latino Studies, I think anyone can benefit from Latino Studies here at UNC. While a number of Latino students come and flock to the classes, its not just Latino students who are coming to flock and take the classes. I think that by the same token, having these types of classes allows Latino students to feel like, oh, they finally can see themselves. They finally can see themselves in history, in literature, in all sorts of areas of studies that maybe they hadn’t seen themselves in other courses they had previously taken. I think it’s really important for students to be able to identify with the material so that there isn’t a huge disconnect. I think once students are identified they are more likely to become committed. And once students in general are committed and invested in their education that leads to a better educational experience for everyone. I think the same could be true of learning about different groups, of realizing, “Oh my gosh, I didn’t even realize that this other group has gone through all of this.” And so the more we learn, the more informed we are and the more equipped we to make the types of changes we feel are necessary and, I guess to quote Gandhi as cliché as that might be, to be the change we want to see in the world.
JS: Do you feel like your position as a professor allows other Latinos on campus to see themselves.
LH: Yes. I do. I do. I say that and I feel like I can say that confidently, mostly because of students who come and ask me to speak to different student organizations, and then students who have come up to me after those talks come up to me and said, “Okay, now I want to take one of your courses,” and have indicated as much in terms of saying okay, finally, maybe this is something I can do with my life. I think that has to do with some of the conversations we’ve been having when we just finished reading, “A Home on the Field.” What does it mean if there’s a cycle where a population continually sees members of that population working in types of sectors of the labor population that invariably affects future generations in terms of what they might envision their futures looking like. I think the more of a presence that there is of Latino faculty, the more likely it is that those percentages will rise.
JS: Well, with that, I think we’re finished.
LH: Okay, great.
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
R-0704 -- Halperín, Laura.
Description
An account of the resource
Laura Halperin is an assistant professor of English and comparative literature at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, where she researches contemporary Latina/o literatures and cultures. She is currently working on a book project, which focuses on representations of harm in late twentieth century Latina novels and memoirs. Her other research interests include Latinas/os and education, access to education, debates surrounding English-Only policies and bilingual or multilingual education, and censorship of Latina/o texts in school libraries and classrooms. Professor Halperin who was hired as a professor at UNC after receiving a diversity fellowship, discusses her areas of study, as well as her personal experience as a Latina in higher education. Halperin explains how fortunate she has been to face relatively little adversity as a result of her ethnicity as a Latina minority in higher education institutions. She attributes some of her experience to her fairer skin, as she is a lighter skin Argentinian. This interview emphasizes the ways in which education and access to job opportunities play an important role in migrants’ lives, and also explores issues of race and diversity.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
17 April 2014
Format
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R0704_Audio.mp3
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/20991">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/e9278d84bb67a122834aefc2067dfddc.mp3
2c95bb0b8b8bd645fa74732b40fcf89f
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/b71cb4b29ec06454597b317ba3afe469.pdf
adbfd351b93cbed1ff2f7f072a9a5e65
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0711
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
05 Apr 2014
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Ramírez, Jenice.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Educators
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Fayetteville -- North Carolina -- United States
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Chapel Hill -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Pope, Kelly.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
As part of Kelly Pope’s investigation of the interaction of American public school systems with Latino students, Ramirez offers her opinion on what resources American public schools are lacking for parents who don’t speak English. Ramirez is the Vice President of an organization called Immersion for Spanish Language Acquisition (ISLA), and was hired during the summer of 2013. She brings a passion for education and serving Latino communities, because unfortunately she witnessed a disconnect between native-English speakers and the Latino community at her former job as a high school teacher. According to Ramirez, ISLA is an organization that works against discriminatory educational systems and the union of families of both communities. She also speaks about the dynamic between parents and their children, and how some students are ashamed of and feel superior to their own parents. Ramirez says ISLA encourages students to be proud of their roots, while also attending American public schools.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Jenice Ramirez by Kelly Pope, 05 April 2014, R-0711, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/20958
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
K12 education; Family; Language and communication; Integration and segregation
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Kelly Pope: Ok, we are recording and my name is Kelly Pope and I’m interviewing Jenice and she works for ISLA. It is April 5th, 2014 and we are at St. Thomas Moore. Yay! How are you?
Jenice Ramirez: I’m good, how are you?
KP: Good. So, tell me a little bit about ISLA and how you got involved
JR: ISLA is a non-profit organization by the 1C3. It was started by Aerin Benavides three years ago; well, this is our second year. She started it because she wanted to essentially create a school for native Spanish speakers to attend and learn the Spanish language and be able to reach the same level of their peers in Latin American countries. So, she has created this curriculum to do that and we are very hands on, we are literacy focused, and now more science focused than ever. I got involved because I stopped teaching last year and I wanted to bring my passion for education and be able to be part of the Latin American community. So I found this organization on LinkedIn.
KP: Really?
JR: Yes.
KP: Wow.
JR: I sent my resume by email one day and hoped for a job and I got it. So this has been probably one of the best experiences I have had thus far, I’m able to do what I like. And I’m able to do it with a group of people who appreciate what we are doing and they enjoy what they are doing and I’m being able to put that passion for learning into our kids; which I think, is one of the more important things about ISLA.
KP: So how long have you been working here?
JR: I started in July so it’s going to be a year in a few months.
KP: Cool. And how does ISLA differentiate from other more traditional schools?
JR: Well, we have a very broad curriculum. We are not so much focused on standards. We do have objectives that I try to meet every single Saturday, but it’s more student-led than teacher-led, which is where we are going. I feel like the more traditional school is, it’s very set on standardized testing and reaching particular goals and that’s not really our mission. Our mission is for kids to enjoy learning the Spanish language and be able to learn them and still reach that same level as kids in Latin American countries who are in traditional school, so…
KP: So what would you say the vision is for ISLA, where would you see ISLA going in the future?
JR: I see it being pre-k through 12th grade school, Saturday school where the kids are here for three hours and they learn just as much they learn in Monday through Friday in three hours.
KP: Wow that’s awesome. So how does ISLA fill gaps that maybe other public or private schools can’t fill?
JR: I think we bridge a gap... we build a bridge for closing that gap between the Latin American community and the public schools because we give them a place to feel comfortable and not feel almost inferior; especially the parents. So we provide them a place for them to be able to ask, you know, questions and for us to help them on every day things that they might have with their kids. And even with the kids some of the strategies that we teach them –how to read in Spanish and write in Spanish –are strategies that they can later take to, you know, their school and and their Monday through Friday. And also be prideful in who they are in their culture. That’s another big part of ISLA is providing that; that pride in who they are and learning about their background, their parents background and taking and sharing it with other people. And a lot of our other kids do go to their schools and tell them about their Saturday school. So I think its beneficial for the community and them.
KP: Why do you think it’s important for them to understand and be proud of their background, these students that come here?
JR: Because one, they are able to speak two languages, speak fluently, read, write, and it provides many more opportunities –especially with the growing Spanish population in our country. And I think it’s important for them to be prideful of who they are. I mean, just because you’re in a different country then where your parents are from doesn’t mean its still not a part of you. For them to be able to have something to share with someone else is just as important to making them cultured.
KP: So you mentioned something about maybe feeling inferior in other schools. Have you witnessed, or what’s your opinion on students of Latino descent maybe feeling inferior in public schools?
JR: Yeah, well most recent, I guess, working here now I see it in a different light. The big thing is, a lot of the time they go to the public schools they –you look at some of our children and they look Hispanic. You can tell they are Hispanic Latinos and automatically they are labeled as ESL or they need to be in possibly a separate in a separate…what was I saying
KP: We were talking about the feeling inferior.
JR: Oh yeah, so you know they all of a sudden get labeled as not being, you know, learning the language. So they are placed and its almost like this attention set on them that’s not positive attention. It’s not a positive thing to be automatically pulled out during maybe your Spanish class or your math class to go to a classroom of 5 people to work on something that you already know how to do. So I think with a lot of kids that’s happened to them because they are in schools that are, the majority are not Hispanic. So in that sense, and then also with the parents, you know, there is not that same parent involvement as maybe some American parents are; just for several reasons. Some are their culture just really isn’t like that, and two they might be working when things are available to them. So then automatically its like ok, well my parents aren’t involved, I don’t get to do this, I don’t get to do that, and it just kind of sets them apart. In that sense, that’s what I have seen here. Now when I was actually teaching in the public school systems, one of the things I saw, not only being just labeled because they were Spanish, but it was also this like almost when –let’s say –teachers would give information to the whole class about particular things with the parents. A lot of the times the Spanish students, the teachers that knew that their parents did not speak Spanish, did not have anything for them. So the chances of that student actually giving their parent information, giving it to them properly is slim to none. And the teachers know that. So in that sense I think it made them feel like, well there is no need for my family or me to be very involved in the community of our school. And I found that to be a real issue, so I just started translating stuff for everybody to give to their parents.
KP: So then how does ISLA kind of help the family dynamic?
JR: Well the big part is providing them with that big happiness for being Latino and having to learn about their background and learning about everyone else’s background too because we do have different Latin American countries represented here. So they are able to take that back home and appreciate it. Because you do have kids that come from Spanish backgrounds and they have zero respect for their parents because their parents might be immigrants and they can’t work, or you know they, can work but it’s like these jobs they work 12, 15-hour days. So it’s like there’s this lack of respect for them almost because they maybe feel that they’re superior to their own parents, whereas here we’re letting them know that their parents’ culture is very important and their parents are important and that’s where that tiempo cultural is so important to them. Being able to see their parents in front of them and everyone like "oh wow", wanting to learn from their parents. Where other kids might not have that.
KP: So I know what it is, but could you explain tiempo cultural?
JR: Yeah, tiempo cultural is thirty minutes that we set aside for the parents to come into the classroom and give some type of presentation that has to do with their culture. It could be reading a story, could be cooking something, it could be actually talking about what city they’re from, a festival that might happen in a particular city. Anything whatsoever that has to do with their cultural background. And it’s set aside for the parents to teach the children.
KP: Cool. So, what kind of messages do students receive from either ISLA or public school systems that help them determine whether or not they value their background?
JR: What’s the question again?
KP: So what messages do students, you kind of touched on it, what messages are they reading and receiving that determine whether or not they value their background?
JR: Well, they’re only allowed to speak Spanish here. So, they’re having to use that which is a big part of their culture. Their parents are clearly being involved and we have… we celebrate different holidays that are typically celebrated in the different Latin American countries. So we are showing them that it’s important to us, so it needs to be important to them. So I think that’s how we send our message to them about their culture. As far as public school systems... I don’t think there is anything. I mean at least all the schools I was in, there was nothing. Cinco de Mayo, but that doesn’t really count. So...
KP: So, you went to school en los Estados Unidos?
JR: Yes
KP: Yeah?
JR: Yes, I went to school here, yeah.
KP: Cool. And where? Was it in North Carolina?
JR: In Fayetteville, North Carolina.
KP: Ok, so you were...
JR: I was an army brat. I bounced from school to school to school to school. Yeah.
KP: And how, was it frustrating for you at all growing up in a school like that and why?
JR: Well, I guess the first experience that we had that was directly related to our culture was when we first moved to Fayetteville. My mom put us in a little elementary school and we had been in American schools before, so I was already in 5th grade and as soon as they came in the first thing they did was put me in ESL. A separate class. So in this class there were 4 people all day and learning the basics, ABCs, like sentence structure, things like that and making cupcakes. Like, it was just stuff that didn’t make sense. So, one day I asked my mom why I wasn’t in the regular classes. So my mom looked into it and sure enough because she didn’t read the paperwork correctly, they had automatically put me in ESL, me and my brother; so, my little brother, he’s just a year younger. So from that point on we started making sure that I was in regular classes because just because I’m Spanish didn’t mean that I had any any issues whatsoever. And that was when we went to the public school systems because before we were always on base with base schools on post. So, it was a little different to travel from post to post. So yeah.
KP: Yeah, so you have a little brother, older brother?
JR: I have two younger brothers.
KP: Mhm, and what are they doing now?
JR: The middle brother, he is in Charlotte. He has a baby. He’s in the Air Force reserves and he works for security clearance, something for Bank of America. He graduated from UNCG, as so did I and went to Chattanooga –Interstate Chattanooga, Tennessee –for wrestling; big wrestler, all through high school, college, and then grad school. And then my youngest brother lives with me in Greensboro and he’s currently in school to be a physical therapist and works for Tim or Honda Jet. He fixes the outside of planes because he’s in the Air Force Reserves. Did I say my other brother was Air Force Reserves? He’s Coastguard Reserves, or Army Reserves. One of those. So they kind of stayed in the military branches.
KP: Cool.
JR: Yeah.
KP: Let’s see. So, you said you were teaching somewhere else, so what area were you teaching in?
JR: I was teaching in a more rural area, I guess that would be. It’s kind of… we had a lot of farmers and then we had city kids. And they would travel far to go to this school. But I taught high school, 9th grade through 12th grade. I was Special Ed. So I started with occupational course of study and then which is kids with disabilities in the 50s 60s IQ range. And then I went into regular classrooms and pulled kids out for math and reading. So I did that for three years.
KP: So how did that kind of location influence your opinions of Latinos in schools that kind of more rural, did you say, more rural culture?
JR: In that area I really saw that the kids just really thought their parents were just dummies. Like they just didn’t know anything and they thought they were superior to them. And I think it has a lot to do with that they were high school kids, but there was that lack of respect. So it was very little involvement from the parents. So that’s really what I saw there and the Latino population wasn’t that large, but what was there, it was kind of discouraging and kind of made me think “ok they’re not even educated about where they’re from and how important it is to appreciate that.” A lot of them didn’t even want you to know they spoke Spanish. So its a very… it was different. It was… I’ve never experienced that before.
KP: So that kind of discomfort with being Latino, do you think it came from just being in that environments, or from other students, or...
JR: I think it was environmental, and well including their peers because you know there’s a lot of people that had been in that particular area generation after generations after generations. And you know this group of Latin American people came in and most recently gotten hired there. So there’s that like push from the community. So I guess you would see, the right way to say... you saw more racism um even with them, the school and young children which is very interesting.
KP: Do you think this kind of dynamic will change in the future?
JR: I hope so, yeah. I think, for example like Chapel Hill area, Fayetteville area, they’re really getting into this immersion and the importance of learning two languages and appreciating knowing another language. So it’s brought an interest to Latin American culture. So I think that that’s helped. I think children possibly feel more comfortable, because people want to know more and be more involved in that. So I think that’s good, but it’s not everywhere. Somewhere I’ve seen it in some places, but we are still working on it.
KP: What about, what do I have here? So back to ISLA, where did this school model come from? Do you know?
JR: Yeah, Aeirn, her husband was Peruvian and they lived in Peru for like ten years and there’s this school there called um Roosevelt American school, but they did the Spanish emersion program. But it was, I believe strictly English immersion. So the school is Spanish, but then they had this English program. And she saw the way, they just grew. Knowing first this one language and then just being exposed to the other language they were able to transfer these skills over to that other language and it was very good program, especially for the pre-k ages. It’s very hands on, very science oriented, very focused on literacy. So she kind of took that and what her ideal vision of what education and her philosophy I guess of what education is and made ISLA.
KP: Very cool. Um, so she brought the ISLA program here?
JR: She created it, yeah. She came up with the name, she did all of that. The idea came from this Roosevelt school, but everything was made off of her ideas of what this ideal school would be. And they also looked a lot at the Chinese Saturday programs, because there are a lot of those. And that’s kind of, I mean, having it on Saturday was why we got it from the Chinese and then the idea of having the school immersion program was from the Roosevelt school. And even now I could look at different schools around North Carolina and due to the duel language or emersion and see what their curriculums like compared to ours. What works for them, what works for us. That’s what we’ve been doing.
KP: Cool. Yeah I think that’s everything unless you want to add anything to it.
JR: Nope!
KP: Awesome thank you so much.
JR: You’re welcome
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Educadores
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Esta entrevista es parte de la investigación de Kelly Pope sobre la interacción de los sistemas educativos públicos de los Estados Unidos con los estudiantes latinos. Jenice Ramírez ofrece su opinión sobre cuáles recursos faltan para los padres que no hablan inglés. Ramírez es vicepresidenta de una organización que se llama Inmersión para la Adquisición de la Lengua Española (ISLA por sus siglas en inglés) y fue contratada en el verano de 2013. Ella trae a su trabajo la pasión por la educación al servicio de las comunidades latinas, porque desafortunadamente, Ramírez ha presenciado en su trabajo anterior como maestra de una escuela secundaria la desconexión entre quienes hablan inglés como primera lengua y la comunidad latina. Según ella, ISLA es una organización que trabaja contra los sistemas de educación discriminatorios y por la unión entre las familias de las dos comunidades. Ella habla también sobre la dinámica entre padres e hijos y cómo algunos estudiantes se avergüenzan de sus padres y se sienten superiores a ellos. Ramírez dice que ISLA promueve que los estudiantes se sientan orgullosos de sus raíces, a la par que estudian en las escuelas públicas estadounidenses.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Jenice Ramírez por Kelly Pope, 05 Abril 2014, R-0711, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Educación básica y media; Familia; Lenguaje y comunicación; Integración y segregación
Es: Transcripción
Kelly Pope: Ok, we are recording and my name is Kelly Pope and I’m interviewing Jenice and she works for ISLA. It is April 5th, 2014 and we are at St. Thomas Moore. Yay! How are you?
Jenice Ramirez: I’m good, how are you?
KP: Good. So, tell me a little bit about ISLA and how you got involved
JR: ISLA is a non-profit organization by the 1C3. It was started by Aerin Benavides three years ago; well, this is our second year. She started it because she wanted to essentially create a school for native Spanish speakers to attend and learn the Spanish language and be able to reach the same level of their peers in Latin American countries. So, she has created this curriculum to do that and we are very hands on, we are literacy focused, and now more science focused than ever. I got involved because I stopped teaching last year and I wanted to bring my passion for education and be able to be part of the Latin American community. So I found this organization on LinkedIn.
KP: Really?
JR: Yes.
KP: Wow.
JR: I sent my resume by email one day and hoped for a job and I got it. So this has been probably one of the best experiences I have had thus far, I’m able to do what I like. And I’m able to do it with a group of people who appreciate what we are doing and they enjoy what they are doing and I’m being able to put that passion for learning into our kids; which I think, is one of the more important things about ISLA.
KP: So how long have you been working here?
JR: I started in July so it’s going to be a year in a few months.
KP: Cool. And how does ISLA differentiate from other more traditional schools?
JR: Well, we have a very broad curriculum. We are not so much focused on standards. We do have objectives that I try to meet every single Saturday, but it’s more student-led than teacher-led, which is where we are going. I feel like the more traditional school is, it’s very set on standardized testing and reaching particular goals and that’s not really our mission. Our mission is for kids to enjoy learning the Spanish language and be able to learn them and still reach that same level as kids in Latin American countries who are in traditional school, so…
KP: So what would you say the vision is for ISLA, where would you see ISLA going in the future?
JR: I see it being pre-k through 12th grade school, Saturday school where the kids are here for three hours and they learn just as much they learn in Monday through Friday in three hours.
KP: Wow that’s awesome. So how does ISLA fill gaps that maybe other public or private schools can’t fill?
JR: I think we bridge a gap... we build a bridge for closing that gap between the Latin American community and the public schools because we give them a place to feel comfortable and not feel almost inferior; especially the parents. So we provide them a place for them to be able to ask, you know, questions and for us to help them on every day things that they might have with their kids. And even with the kids some of the strategies that we teach them –how to read in Spanish and write in Spanish –are strategies that they can later take to, you know, their school and and their Monday through Friday. And also be prideful in who they are in their culture. That’s another big part of ISLA is providing that; that pride in who they are and learning about their background, their parents background and taking and sharing it with other people. And a lot of our other kids do go to their schools and tell them about their Saturday school. So I think its beneficial for the community and them.
KP: Why do you think it’s important for them to understand and be proud of their background, these students that come here?
JR: Because one, they are able to speak two languages, speak fluently, read, write, and it provides many more opportunities –especially with the growing Spanish population in our country. And I think it’s important for them to be prideful of who they are. I mean, just because you’re in a different country then where your parents are from doesn’t mean its still not a part of you. For them to be able to have something to share with someone else is just as important to making them cultured.
KP: So you mentioned something about maybe feeling inferior in other schools. Have you witnessed, or what’s your opinion on students of Latino descent maybe feeling inferior in public schools?
JR: Yeah, well most recent, I guess, working here now I see it in a different light. The big thing is, a lot of the time they go to the public schools they –you look at some of our children and they look Hispanic. You can tell they are Hispanic Latinos and automatically they are labeled as ESL or they need to be in possibly a separate in a separate…what was I saying
KP: We were talking about the feeling inferior.
JR: Oh yeah, so you know they all of a sudden get labeled as not being, you know, learning the language. So they are placed and its almost like this attention set on them that’s not positive attention. It’s not a positive thing to be automatically pulled out during maybe your Spanish class or your math class to go to a classroom of 5 people to work on something that you already know how to do. So I think with a lot of kids that’s happened to them because they are in schools that are, the majority are not Hispanic. So in that sense, and then also with the parents, you know, there is not that same parent involvement as maybe some American parents are; just for several reasons. Some are their culture just really isn’t like that, and two they might be working when things are available to them. So then automatically its like ok, well my parents aren’t involved, I don’t get to do this, I don’t get to do that, and it just kind of sets them apart. In that sense, that’s what I have seen here. Now when I was actually teaching in the public school systems, one of the things I saw, not only being just labeled because they were Spanish, but it was also this like almost when –let’s say –teachers would give information to the whole class about particular things with the parents. A lot of the times the Spanish students, the teachers that knew that their parents did not speak Spanish, did not have anything for them. So the chances of that student actually giving their parent information, giving it to them properly is slim to none. And the teachers know that. So in that sense I think it made them feel like, well there is no need for my family or me to be very involved in the community of our school. And I found that to be a real issue, so I just started translating stuff for everybody to give to their parents.
KP: So then how does ISLA kind of help the family dynamic?
JR: Well the big part is providing them with that big happiness for being Latino and having to learn about their background and learning about everyone else’s background too because we do have different Latin American countries represented here. So they are able to take that back home and appreciate it. Because you do have kids that come from Spanish backgrounds and they have zero respect for their parents because their parents might be immigrants and they can’t work, or you know they, can work but it’s like these jobs they work 12, 15-hour days. So it’s like there’s this lack of respect for them almost because they maybe feel that they’re superior to their own parents, whereas here we’re letting them know that their parents’ culture is very important and their parents are important and that’s where that tiempo cultural is so important to them. Being able to see their parents in front of them and everyone like "oh wow", wanting to learn from their parents. Where other kids might not have that.
KP: So I know what it is, but could you explain tiempo cultural?
JR: Yeah, tiempo cultural is thirty minutes that we set aside for the parents to come into the classroom and give some type of presentation that has to do with their culture. It could be reading a story, could be cooking something, it could be actually talking about what city they’re from, a festival that might happen in a particular city. Anything whatsoever that has to do with their cultural background. And it’s set aside for the parents to teach the children.
KP: Cool. So, what kind of messages do students receive from either ISLA or public school systems that help them determine whether or not they value their background?
JR: What’s the question again?
KP: So what messages do students, you kind of touched on it, what messages are they reading and receiving that determine whether or not they value their background?
JR: Well, they’re only allowed to speak Spanish here. So, they’re having to use that which is a big part of their culture. Their parents are clearly being involved and we have… we celebrate different holidays that are typically celebrated in the different Latin American countries. So we are showing them that it’s important to us, so it needs to be important to them. So I think that’s how we send our message to them about their culture. As far as public school systems... I don’t think there is anything. I mean at least all the schools I was in, there was nothing. Cinco de Mayo, but that doesn’t really count. So...
KP: So, you went to school en los Estados Unidos?
JR: Yes
KP: Yeah?
JR: Yes, I went to school here, yeah.
KP: Cool. And where? Was it in North Carolina?
JR: In Fayetteville, North Carolina.
KP: Ok, so you were...
JR: I was an army brat. I bounced from school to school to school to school. Yeah.
KP: And how, was it frustrating for you at all growing up in a school like that and why?
JR: Well, I guess the first experience that we had that was directly related to our culture was when we first moved to Fayetteville. My mom put us in a little elementary school and we had been in American schools before, so I was already in 5th grade and as soon as they came in the first thing they did was put me in ESL. A separate class. So in this class there were 4 people all day and learning the basics, ABCs, like sentence structure, things like that and making cupcakes. Like, it was just stuff that didn’t make sense. So, one day I asked my mom why I wasn’t in the regular classes. So my mom looked into it and sure enough because she didn’t read the paperwork correctly, they had automatically put me in ESL, me and my brother; so, my little brother, he’s just a year younger. So from that point on we started making sure that I was in regular classes because just because I’m Spanish didn’t mean that I had any any issues whatsoever. And that was when we went to the public school systems because before we were always on base with base schools on post. So, it was a little different to travel from post to post. So yeah.
KP: Yeah, so you have a little brother, older brother?
JR: I have two younger brothers.
KP: Mhm, and what are they doing now?
JR: The middle brother, he is in Charlotte. He has a baby. He’s in the Air Force reserves and he works for security clearance, something for Bank of America. He graduated from UNCG, as so did I and went to Chattanooga –Interstate Chattanooga, Tennessee –for wrestling; big wrestler, all through high school, college, and then grad school. And then my youngest brother lives with me in Greensboro and he’s currently in school to be a physical therapist and works for Tim or Honda Jet. He fixes the outside of planes because he’s in the Air Force Reserves. Did I say my other brother was Air Force Reserves? He’s Coastguard Reserves, or Army Reserves. One of those. So they kind of stayed in the military branches.
KP: Cool.
JR: Yeah.
KP: Let’s see. So, you said you were teaching somewhere else, so what area were you teaching in?
JR: I was teaching in a more rural area, I guess that would be. It’s kind of… we had a lot of farmers and then we had city kids. And they would travel far to go to this school. But I taught high school, 9th grade through 12th grade. I was Special Ed. So I started with occupational course of study and then which is kids with disabilities in the 50s 60s IQ range. And then I went into regular classrooms and pulled kids out for math and reading. So I did that for three years.
KP: So how did that kind of location influence your opinions of Latinos in schools that kind of more rural, did you say, more rural culture?
JR: In that area I really saw that the kids just really thought their parents were just dummies. Like they just didn’t know anything and they thought they were superior to them. And I think it has a lot to do with that they were high school kids, but there was that lack of respect. So it was very little involvement from the parents. So that’s really what I saw there and the Latino population wasn’t that large, but what was there, it was kind of discouraging and kind of made me think “ok they’re not even educated about where they’re from and how important it is to appreciate that.” A lot of them didn’t even want you to know they spoke Spanish. So its a very… it was different. It was… I’ve never experienced that before.
KP: So that kind of discomfort with being Latino, do you think it came from just being in that environments, or from other students, or...
JR: I think it was environmental, and well including their peers because you know there’s a lot of people that had been in that particular area generation after generations after generations. And you know this group of Latin American people came in and most recently gotten hired there. So there’s that like push from the community. So I guess you would see, the right way to say... you saw more racism um even with them, the school and young children which is very interesting.
KP: Do you think this kind of dynamic will change in the future?
JR: I hope so, yeah. I think, for example like Chapel Hill area, Fayetteville area, they’re really getting into this immersion and the importance of learning two languages and appreciating knowing another language. So it’s brought an interest to Latin American culture. So I think that that’s helped. I think children possibly feel more comfortable, because people want to know more and be more involved in that. So I think that’s good, but it’s not everywhere. Somewhere I’ve seen it in some places, but we are still working on it.
KP: What about, what do I have here? So back to ISLA, where did this school model come from? Do you know?
JR: Yeah, Aeirn, her husband was Peruvian and they lived in Peru for like ten years and there’s this school there called um Roosevelt American school, but they did the Spanish emersion program. But it was, I believe strictly English immersion. So the school is Spanish, but then they had this English program. And she saw the way, they just grew. Knowing first this one language and then just being exposed to the other language they were able to transfer these skills over to that other language and it was very good program, especially for the pre-k ages. It’s very hands on, very science oriented, very focused on literacy. So she kind of took that and what her ideal vision of what education and her philosophy I guess of what education is and made ISLA.
KP: Very cool. Um, so she brought the ISLA program here?
JR: She created it, yeah. She came up with the name, she did all of that. The idea came from this Roosevelt school, but everything was made off of her ideas of what this ideal school would be. And they also looked a lot at the Chinese Saturday programs, because there are a lot of those. And that’s kind of, I mean, having it on Saturday was why we got it from the Chinese and then the idea of having the school immersion program was from the Roosevelt school. And even now I could look at different schools around North Carolina and due to the duel language or emersion and see what their curriculums like compared to ours. What works for them, what works for us. That’s what we’ve been doing.
KP: Cool. Yeah I think that’s everything unless you want to add anything to it.
JR: Nope!
KP: Awesome thank you so much.
JR: You’re welcome
Interviewee Date of Birth
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R-0711 -- Ramírez, Jenice.
Description
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As part of Kelly Pope’s investigation of the interaction of American public school systems with Latino students, Ramirez offers her opinion on what resources American public schools are lacking for parents who don’t speak English. Ramirez is the Vice President of an organization called Immersion for Spanish Language Acquisition (ISLA), and was hired during the summer of 2013. She brings a passion for education and serving Latino communities, because unfortunately she witnessed a disconnect between native-English speakers and the Latino community at her former job as a high school teacher. According to Ramirez, ISLA is an organization that works against discriminatory educational systems and the union of families of both communities. She also speaks about the dynamic between parents and their children, and how some students are ashamed of and feel superior to their own parents. Ramirez says ISLA encourages students to be proud of their roots, while also attending American public schools.
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
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No restrictions. Open to research.
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05 Apr 2014
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R0711_Audio.mp3
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/20958">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/93715e76bdb78adf05224bd4106dfc18.mp3
96ccd8f5894e4cd5232e42031f830e1a
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/a018e39e3c97fc39207b45e8e5999067.pdf
1f9fe5adb81378b438d0bbbc8ec9d96c
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0701
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
21 April 2014
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
X, Lucia, pseud.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Students
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1984
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Cartagena -- Colombia
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Carrboro -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-75.51444444444445 10.3997222),1984,1;POINT(-79.0752895 35.9101438),2010,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Jessen, Hannah.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Hannah Jessen's interviews are a study of the lives of the mothers of migration, specifically the relationship between mother and child, the ways they support their families in a new context, the new concerns that come with raising their children in a different country, and their hopes for their families and for themselves in the future. In this interview with Lucia, Jessen hears from a migrant mother who was planning neither on coming to the United States, nor having children. However, her life was changed when she met her American husband while he was backpacking through her native Colombia. Now she is in the United States, studying to be a social worker at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and raising their four-year-old son. She is a non-conventional Colombian woman who offered a unique perspective on bilingualism and biculturalism, as well as on the reasons for migrating.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Lucia X, pseud., by Hannah Jessen, 21 April 2014, R-0701, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/20183
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Culture;Family; Gender; Identity; Integration and segregation
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Hannah Jessen: This is Hannah Jessen, and today I am interviewing Lucia. We are at El Centro Hispano on Monday, April 21, 2014 at 11 in the morning. Hello again, Lucia. It’s so nice to finally meet you after talking through email. Thank you for doing this interview with me. So just to start will you tell me a little bit about your past and where you’re from?
Lucia: I’m from Colombia. I’m from a city named Cartagena that is in the Caribbean coast of Colombia. And that makes a big difference because I haven’t met many Caribbeans, Colombian Caribbeans here. And when I say I’m from Colombia, people don’t understand why because the majority of the Colombians that are here are from the center of the country in the mountains. And there’s a big culture difference. So I always tend to explain that I’m from Colombia but from the Caribbean part of Colombia. Where I’m coming from there, tropical city. I don’t know what else specifically you want me to tell.
HJ: I guess maybe a little bit about your family.
L: My family, okay. My family -- I grew up in a family with my mom and dad and two older brothers. As it is normal there, I grew up very close to my mom’s side of the family and not too close to my dad’s side of the family. So my main links or the relationships are with my aunt and my grandmother, specifically, and then I have an uncle and a grandfather that I’m not also that close but --.
HJ: Okay, and they are all still in Colombia?
L: Yes, all of them are in Colombia. My brothers are in different cities in Colombia now, but they are in Colombia.
HJ: Okay. So I guess can you tell me a little bit now of when you decided to come to the States and kind of why?
L: [Laughs.] Yeah, well I guess it is a decision, but I never really dreamed about coming here. I was very curious about seeing the world and experience living in another culture, but it was more aiming for Europe more than the U.S. That is why I studied English since I was really little, and then I studied French. And I came to the U.S. because I happened to fall in love with a North American.
HJ: And where did you meet him?
L: We met there in Colombia. Yeah he was this backpacker that just pack and travel for years. So he was traveling from Beleza to Chile. And he travelled for a year and two months, and then he was right in Colombia with me.
HJ: Oh that’s so neat.
L: Yeah.
HJ: So you guys -- so you came back with him, or did you have to apply for a visa?
L: Well, yeah that was a little complicated because for both of us it was -- it’s like we really liked each other but none of us had the idea of you know getting bold with somebody who lives in another country. I wasn’t really thinking about it. But you know it was pretty special, it was powerful so we started just getting involved every time more without even noticing, and he went back after he finished his travel, he went back there and lived six months.
HJ: Went back to --?
L: To Cartagena.
HJ: Okay.
L: And he -- I was working in my thesis by that time. So he lived there for six months, and then he came back. We kept in touch. And then he came back for an entire year, and we moved in together there in Cartagena.
HJ: Okay, wow for a whole year.
L: And then -- for a whole year -- but then I got pregnant without planning
[Laughter]
L: Oh goodness, yeah. But by that time you know it was hard because we really loved each other, we wanted to have a baby, you know. I was -- he wanted to marry. He had more experience with relationships than I did. So I knew I loved him, and I wanted to be with him. But I didn’t really want to come here. But then when there’s a baby involved, it makes sense. So yeah we start doing the process. While I was pregnant we applied for a fiancé visa. And we went through the whole process, and our son was born there in Colombia.
HJ: He was born in Colombia.
L: Yes, in Cartagena. By that time I was working at the university, and I also was fulfilling some post-graduate studies there.
HJ: Okay. And what year was this?
L: It was in 2009. 2009, 2010. Our son was born in 2010. April 2010, four years ago.
HJ: Okay.
L: So I got the visa. When our son was born I was done with my studies and my contract at the university. We came here. So his family -- well his mom and his sister went to Cartagena to meet the baby. And they went before when we were -- when he lived here the first six months I told you, they came here to meet me because they were like “Who’s this girl, that he’s like coming back to stay?” So they were very curious, so I met his mom and sister, his twin sister. And then we came here and the rest of his family was able to meet our son. And they are from St. Louis, Missouri. So our son was three months old when we came here. And I guess by that time is when I started to immigrate here, I immigrated here, we get married, and I start applying for the residency.
HJ: Okay. And do you have permanent residency now?
L: I do, yeah.
HJ: Great.
L: I can apply for -- to be a citizen. But I’m not ready to do that yet.
HJ: Not yet?
L: No.
HJ: You still hope that maybe someday you’ll be able to go back to Colombia to live?
L: Oh I -- yes, we definitely want to do that.
HJ: And he wants to as well?
L: He wants to, yeah he loves Colombia.
HJ: Good. Does he speak Spanish?
L: He does. Yeah, he has an amazing level of Spanish.
HJ: That’s great.
L: And he loves it, he loves the culture, the language. So that’s good.
HJ: Yeah. Well, so in your house now you just have the one son, correct?
L: Mhmm.
HJ: Does he speak Spanish and English, or how are you guys teaching him both?
L: Yeah we are. There are differing approaches you know when you have a bilingual family, bicultural. And we choose the approach that is one part one language. So I am the Spanish native speaker so I always speak Spanish with him. And my husband always speaks English to him. And you know that’s the general idea, but sometimes we find ourselves all of us speaking Spanish or sometimes we find ourselves speaking English. But that’s very rare. But we try most of the time just speaking Spanish to him all the time, he will speak English to him. But he is stronger in English now. But that goes in waves. Because his first years it was Spanish because I was spending more time with him so he didn’t go to school, so it was me who was here most of the time. So he was stronger in Spanish. And then when he goes out and has more other friends, and my husband’s mother moved here to North Carolina from St. Louis, and he was spending more time with her. So that goes in waves, you know, which one, which language grows stronger than the other. And then we go to Colombia, spend some time there and then he speaks Spanish better. But now he’s stronger in English, a little bit. Like when he speaks Spanish he says words in English, like he’s got the Spanglish going on.
HJ: Aw, that’s great though that he’s fluent though in both languages. That’s a great skill to have. And then culture-wise, how do you guys incorporate both American and Colombian culture in your family?
L: That’s a challenge especially because I think that my husband is not a very conventional American, and I’m not a very conventional Colombian or Latino American. We are -- I mean we’ve been called all of our lives weird in our own culture. So you know it’s very interesting. I was thinking about that and especially now that we were in the Easter time, and that’s very a big deal in my country especially in my city, we host semana santa because everybody there -- not everybody but most of the people are some branches of Cristianismo. And I grew up Christian but you know I’m not -- I don’t have any religion right now. I have a lot of respect for religion, but I don’t have any right now. Or I don’t practice any. But it’s very hard to separate the religious part from the culture part of it. So -- and that also happens to me when it’s Christmastime. You know I really don’t have the motivation to celebrate Christmas, but it’s a cultural thing. And then my husband comes from Judaism. He grew up Jewish. So we are like --.
HJ: An interesting mix.
L: What do we do? So I try to do the cultural parts of it, and I even told myself, okay for next year, for Easter I want to learn how to make this, I don’t know, it’s something sweet that we make there in my city during Easter. We call it dulces. It’s like -- the only thing I can think of is like a jelly but not as thick. It’s fruit-based, it’s really cool.
HJ: And what do you call it?
L: Dulces.
HJ: Dulces, oh okay.
L: It’s something sweet, so it’s like coconut with sugar or milk and it’s delicious.
HJ: Oh okay, sounds good.
L: So during this time, we do that so I was thinking, ‘I’m going to do that so my son has that,’ you know that we do this during Easter. We don’t do the bunny or the Easter bunny or whatever. That doesn’t make sense to me. I don’t -- and my husband never had that either so --. So I try to take some aspects of the cultural things that I think are very important. And also I think about my childhood. I loved my childhood, that was the happiest time of my life. I have a beautiful childhood. And you know I really think that -- we didn’t think about Santa Claus, we thought it was a baby Jesus who brought the presents. So I really think it was, you know, the baby Jesus bringing presents. I have all these fantasies and it was fun. And I really want to raise our child very rationally, that doesn’t have any of those fantasies of thinking that, you know, there is a Santa Claus or there is a Easter Bunny or whatever. So I try to do something that is related with my husband’s culture, Judaism, or the American culture in general and also from my culture.
HJ: Okay. So you were saying you had a really beautiful childhood. How do you think your son’s childhood here will be different from that?
L: Oh my goodness, yeah. A lot different. You know I grew up in Cartagena in [12:16] like a city by the ocean. And it has changed a lot because even my husband keeps telling me that like you know children now in Cartagena don’t have the childhood that you used to have. I’m getting close to my thirties, so it’s been a while and that’s the dynamic of reality. Reality changes from different ways. But it was super fun. It was -- I grew up in a working class neighborhood when there were a ton of kids, and every afternoon when it was cooler, because it’s a very, very hot city, you know, ninety degrees year round.
HJ: Wow, that is hot.
L: Yeah, so when the sun got cooler, we would just go out, want to play. The houses are so close together. Sometimes there’s just one wall separating one house to the other so you can hear the neighbor. You know that’s how close we lived there. And it’s a hot city so it’s a lot of outside, you know, people sitting in their yards just catching the wind, we say. I don’t know how you say that but like refreshing yourself with the wind. So it’s very an outside place, windows open, doors open all day. And he doesn’t have that of course. When it was raining, that was celebration for us, oh my gosh, it’s raining. We just go out and play in the rain all the kids. And sometimes I do that with him, you know, ‘it’s raining, let’s go outside.’ Especially all during the summer because I loved that when I was a kid. And I always have dogs, and here I can’t have dogs because it’s like having another child that never grows up. It’s expensive. And I had dogs, but our dogs were very wild. They would just come and go inside the house, we would feed them, they would just -- we didn’t have to fix them, they would reproduce themselves. And it was fun to have a dog like that, and now I feel a little sad that I’m not providing that for him, he’s not going to have a pet because --.
HJ: It’s a lot of work.
L: Yeah, it’s a lot of work, a lot of responsibility that we don’t want to have. We like to put the effort in something different. So it’s very different, but you know different is good too, and he’s got all the aspects I think that I didn’t have. Like learning two different languages from the very beginning, being a part of two cultures. This is going to be enriching in it’s own way.
HJ: Yeah, it’s rewarding in a different way. So how do you think your role of a mother is different here in the States than if you had -- say if you had married a Colombian man, and stayed there, and had children there, how do you think your role as mother here is different?
L: It’s huge. First, I’m having the experience of being a mom in this community that is a very progressive community in this area. And that’s also has made a lot of the mom I’m becoming. And I have a lot of problems or conflicts I will say when I go visit in Colombia. I have everybody giving me opinions about how should I raise my son. This is a simple example. You know our son was -- he grew up there and we were there for his first three months of life. And there was a huge pressure there that I should give him formula. And then our son was very fussy. I mean he is a very intense child. And everybody would just say, ‘Oh because you’re not giving him formula, he’s hungry all the time.’ And we really wanted to breastfeed him because I got pregnant and the first thing we do is reading everything about it and how to raise, what’s the best thing to do more than listening to my mom and other women around, what should I do. And everybody’s saying like yeah and then I have little boobs and they say, ‘you know, you can’t produce much milk there, where is he going to get -- he’s always upset because he’s hungry.’ So I have a huge pressure about giving him formula there. And also with giving birth. We wanted to have a natural birth with no anesthesia or anything like that or the epidural. And everyone was like oh my gosh, that’s going to be -- even my mom that she’s a very open-minded person and I am the way I am because of her, she really raised me in a very unconventional way to be a woman there. But still, she will be like freaking out because it’s better just, you know, go and get your C-section planned. You’ll be safe for you, safer for you, for the kid. No, we wanted to do it natural. So it was -- and this was not in Colombia, this was in my city because there are parts in Colombia that are more progressive than this city where I lived and I grew up. And then here is all the opposite. You know I encounter -- when we moved I encountered my neighbor, and she was all the opposite. She was having so much pressure because she couldn’t give birth naturally, she had all these complications, and then she couldn’t breastfeed her child because he had a very high pallet. And then she was having the opposite problem that I had so I think it definitely affects a lot of the way I am a mom. And especially you know like healthy habits, like in my country, I think I would generalize that kids -- you just give sweets to them. And I grew up eating sweets like crazy, and I really hope they wouldn’t have done that to me because when I get anxious that’s what I want, I need sugar. And with my son we are trying not to do that. And I think I am able to do that. I raise -- I got an awareness about healthier habits because of my contact with this culture and my husband. I think otherwise I wouldn’t have them. That’s just an example.
HJ: Right. So you feel like you have more freedom here in the way that you raise him instead of being influenced by family and culture?
L: Yeah I think there you just do that, what your mom tells you to do, and I think even I would’ve done a lot of -- at least with eating and stuff like that, I think I would’ve just do whatever she would suggest me and say advice.
HJ: Do you feel like your role as a wife is different here? I know being a mother here is different, but do you feel like being a wife is different here?
L: Wow. I really don’t know what life I would’ve been there. I mean I never really pictured myself as a wife. [Laughs]
HJ: Really?
L: Yeah.
HJ: Until you met him?
L: Yeah I guess, and I realized that when I met him and all the women of my age were already looking for guys and even younger there. Cause there, women get pregnant and have children at a very young age. And that’s very common. Not all of them, but it’s very common. So you know I noticed when I met him that I have all these plans for my life and none of them included meeting someone. And I wasn’t looking for someone. And it was very uncomfortable to feel that way for him, why do I want to be around him? I mean no, this feels weird. I even told him just don’t email me or call me cause this just feels too weird. I have my life planned and now everything is moving. So I don’t know, I really have no idea how. And my mom that she -- this is really funny because she was an activist when she was a young woman, very left wing, you know against the emperio. How do you say that?
HJ: Emperio? Empire?
L: Yeah. That the U.S. is the empire, she was very left wing. And then when I met him, I was feeling like this, well my dad’s going to be an American and my mom’s going to be freaked out because it’s an American guy I’m having feelings for. But she was excited because she was like, ‘Yeah, I would’ve guessed that you wouldn’t fall in love with a Colombian.’ So she was just excited that I just fell in love and there was the hope of a grandchild.
[Laughter]
L: I don’t know if I’m making my point.
HJ: No, I understand. I think, was the word imperialism?
L: Imperialists, so she was against the imperialism. Like she was not very -- I thought she was going to be disappointed that I was getting involved with somebody from the emperio. That belonged to the --.
HJ: But she was just happy that you met somebody.
L: Yeah.
HJ: Was she disappointed before when you kind of decided that you maybe didn’t want to meet somebody or that you had different plans?
L: I didn’t -- I never decided, I just had --.
HJ: Just thoughts about it.
L: Yeah I mean it was not a conscious decision. I just -- it was not crossing my mind. You know I have a lot of aspirations. But meeting someone and having a family was not one of them. I just didn’t think about it. So I think she was partially, yeah, worried about it that I was just going to be a very successful, lonely woman.
[Laughter]
HJ: Yes, I can see how a mother would be concerned about that.
L: Yeah I do too now.
HJ: Well what do you think has been the biggest challenge being a mother, whether it’s here or just in general?
L: Wow. Biggest challenge. I have a lot of challenges. Biggest one?
HJ: Or one of the biggest ones.
L: One of the biggest ones. I think it’s funny because this is probably not one of the biggest ones but for some reason it’s the first one I thought of: learning how to drive. [Laughs]
HJ: Oh really?
L: Yeah.
HJ: That’s interesting.
L: Yeah, and I think I could only survive without driving for two years was here in Carrboro. Yeah with a child, with a baby. Because here I could take the bus, I walked a lot.
HJ: Right, everything’s close.
L: It has parks, I mean just walking different directions. So that was only possible here in Carrboro to survive a long time. And it was hard for me to learn how to drive. It was -- you know there was a lot of things going on also.
HJ: And you were able to get your license with the visa that you had at that time?
L: Yeah, yeah. I just didn’t know how to drive cause I never did it and they never said I needed to learn to drive at some point. I’m not crazy about cars, I never thought I was going to have a car. Even just me -- it’s like it’s really hard for someone who doesn’t come from that place to understand, but even when I was driving the first time, I’m there, I’m freaking out, I’m cold and pale and I want to turn and then my hands are just like this. Like I didn’t even know how to maneuver.
HJ: Yeah, it’s not natural.
L: Yeah so that’s how it was for me to drive. And I think just driving brought out a lot of inner tension about moving here and being in a different country.
HJ: Having to learn new things that you didn’t think were necessary before.
L: And also, yeah, and also coming from feeling very competent in my own city, my own circle to here when there’s so many things I had to learn. And then for the first time I am experiencing feeling incompetent doing something. And the motherhood also faced me with that feeling so it was just too much for me to take at the same time.
HJ: Yeah cause it’s all new and foreign, so you kind of have to start over learning the ways here.
L: Yeah.
HJ: Yeah, I can imagine how that would be really hard. Are you glad ultimately though that you made that decision to come here?
L: Yes, yes. I am glad and especially now that I feel like I’m finally in a better place, when I know how to drive and my son is older and I find jobs here because that was another thing, finding jobs here. You know coming from being a professor there of philosophy and here when nobody will hire me because I don’t have any references here, they all tell me, yeah you have this amazing curriculum back in Colombia but how about here? So how did you start, right? So I’ve been working not in my field, but I am giving classes in Spanish and working with that ONG that works with Latino families that have made my days happier. That’s how I started volunteering also.
HJ: At the Human Rights Center?
L: Yes. And I also tried El Centro Hispano, but my son was younger by that time and I really couldn’t make it because I tried to do the tutoring program and it was like 6:30 and that was bedtime. And I tried but it didn’t work. So I tried again like a year later with the Human Rights Center.
HJ: Good.
L: So finally I’m getting to know people and being useful so right now I’m in a very good position. And now I got into this program at UNC.
HJ: Yeah, that’s great.
L: So I’m like, okay all these hard times the past year, now I’m getting the results, and I’m understanding that I had to go through all that to get to being in a better place, like now.
HJ: Right. And you’re feeling more competent now here?
L: Yes, more competent, definitely. Yeah I have that feedback that I wasn’t having for almost three years.
HJ: Wow.
L: Yeah. It was hard, but you know it’s like everything. When you have those kinds of experiences where you feel really uncomfortable but once you get through it and you are over it you realize how much you learned from that.
HJ: And that it was worth it.
L: Yeah, that it was worth it.
HJ: Do you think you want to have more kids in the future? Have you guys thought about that?
L: Yeah we have talked about that a lot, and at first we thought we will have another one, we will adopt one.
HJ: Oh okay.
L: But after the actual experience of having a child and also how hard it’s been for me to resume my professional life, we think maybe we’re just going to stop there with one. Because we don’t really see when it’s going to happen.
HJ: Right, it’s a lot of work.
L: Yeah, it’s a lot of work, and then I don’t want to have another one and send him to daycare at the age of six months or something. I was with this one almost for three years or two years fulltime. And it’s not fair to have another one and just not can be the same way I did. Not exactly the same way, but at least half of it. So we don’t think so, no.
HJ: Okay. Do you think it will be harder to be a mother next year when you’re in school again? Or I guess your son will be also in school. Will he be in kindergarten?
L: No he’s going to -- first he’s going to be one year and going to be in class. That’s why I took this longer program. So he already goes to preschool three days a week, half days. So he’s -- it’s funny when I told him that mommy was going to school, he said ‘so who’s going to take care of me?’
[Laughter]
L: That’s what he’s worried about. He’s a worrier.
HJ: That’s sweet.
L: It’s funny, yeah. So I think it won’t change that much. And by the time I’m going to be busier, he’s going to go to preschool.
HJ: Okay, perfect. So you won’t miss out on much time with him?
L: Not much time, yeah.
HJ: Good. Well, let’s see. Yeah I think that was about all the questions, I had laid out. I didn’t know if you had any final thoughts or -- yeah, anything else to contribute?
L: I don’t know, I can’t think of anything right now.
HJ: Okay. No, that was great. It was really interesting to hear. It was a different perspective cause I’ve talked to several people but nobody who’s come here because they met somebody. So it was a different experience.
L: Yeah and that -- well, I can add this. I feel very out of place most of the time because where I’m coming from, the Colombian moms I encounter here, they came here first and then met their husbands here. And so they started from a desire of being in this culture and immigrated here, which was not my case. And also these moms that all of them are coming from a higher class level there in Colombia than I come from -- than I’m coming from. They are more like middle class there, and I come from working class there. So for me it’s always like a little barrier there between them and me because I don’t feel like I’m totally like them or we can really empathize in many things.
HJ: To relate.
L: Yeah to relate in many things, in many aspects of it. And also as I was saying at the beginning, all of them are coming from a different culture in Colombia than I’m coming from. I’m coming from the coast, and also sometimes there’s a little tension between the coast and the people from the interior because they think we’re lazy.
HJ: I didn’t know that.
L: Yeah.
HJ: That’s interesting. Do you also feel like there’s tension -- I know you do a lot of work with the Human Rights Center and other organizations. Do you ever feel like there’s tension between people who are still undocumented and you since you’ll be able to attain citizenship maybe one day if you want to? Do you think there’s tension there that it was -- that you kind of had that advantage to be able to obtain a visa?
L: Yeah, I don’t really think there is tension.
HJ: Good, that’s good.
L: I don’t think so. Yeah, all the opposite. I really feel when I work with the illegal immigrants that they’re so happy to have somebody that can speak Spanish to them.
HJ: Exactly.
L: And that, you know, they just -- and also I work at the -- this other organization I told you about that most of them are also illegal immigrants and families and they’re just happy to have someone they can speak Spanish to.
HJ: Who understands them.
L: Who understands them. So they don’t really think about like, oh you’re and legal immigrant, I’m not.
HJ: Cause you all still have the same experience of migration and change and challenge.
L: Yes, a similar experience. Because as I told you in my email, I came here as an immigrant, but I had a lot of guidance because my husband is from here. And then I have all his family that were crazy for me from the very beginning and very warm to me all this time. So I came here, and I found help and support.
HJ: And a community.
L: And a community. Yeah that’s right. And another thing is the same case with illegal immigrants.
HJ: They lack that community and the support often.
L: Probably they do have it but within the same illegal immigrant community.
HJ: Right, not from the outside.
L: Yeah, not from the people here in North America.
HJ: Which is unfortunate but true.
L: Yeah.
HJ: Okay well thank you again, this was so interesting to hear your story. So I appreciate you taking the time out.
L: Sure.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Estudiantes
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Las entrevistas de Hannah Jessen son parte de una investigación sobre las vidas de las madres de la inmigración, específicamente las relaciones entre madre e hijos, las maneras en que ellas apoyan a sus familias en un contexto nuevo, los retos que trae consigo el hecho de criar a sus hijos en un país diferente y lo que esperan del futuro para ellas y sus familias. En esta entrevista con Lucia, Jessen escucha la historia de una madre migrante que no planeaba ni venir a los Estados Unidos ni ser madre. Sin embargo, su vida cambió cuando ella conoció a su esposo, quien es estadounidense, cuando él estaba viajando en Colombia, el país de origen de Lucia. Ahora ella vive en los Estados Unidos, estudia en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill para ser una trabajadora social, y cuida a su hijo de cuatro años. Ella es una mujer colombiana no convencional, quien ofreció una perspectiva única sobre el hecho de ser bilingüe y bicultural, y también sobre los motivos de su migración.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Lucia X, pseud., por Hannah Jessen, 21 Abril 2014, R-0701, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Cultura;Familia; Género;Identidad; Integración y segregación
Es: Transcripción
Hannah Jessen: This is Hannah Jessen, and today I am interviewing Lucia. We are at El Centro Hispano on Monday, April 21, 2014 at 11 in the morning. Hello again, Lucia. It’s so nice to finally meet you after talking through email. Thank you for doing this interview with me. So just to start will you tell me a little bit about your past and where you’re from?
Lucia: I’m from Colombia. I’m from a city named Cartagena that is in the Caribbean coast of Colombia. And that makes a big difference because I haven’t met many Caribbeans, Colombian Caribbeans here. And when I say I’m from Colombia, people don’t understand why because the majority of the Colombians that are here are from the center of the country in the mountains. And there’s a big culture difference. So I always tend to explain that I’m from Colombia but from the Caribbean part of Colombia. Where I’m coming from there, tropical city. I don’t know what else specifically you want me to tell.
HJ: I guess maybe a little bit about your family.
L: My family, okay. My family -- I grew up in a family with my mom and dad and two older brothers. As it is normal there, I grew up very close to my mom’s side of the family and not too close to my dad’s side of the family. So my main links or the relationships are with my aunt and my grandmother, specifically, and then I have an uncle and a grandfather that I’m not also that close but --.
HJ: Okay, and they are all still in Colombia?
L: Yes, all of them are in Colombia. My brothers are in different cities in Colombia now, but they are in Colombia.
HJ: Okay. So I guess can you tell me a little bit now of when you decided to come to the States and kind of why?
L: [Laughs.] Yeah, well I guess it is a decision, but I never really dreamed about coming here. I was very curious about seeing the world and experience living in another culture, but it was more aiming for Europe more than the U.S. That is why I studied English since I was really little, and then I studied French. And I came to the U.S. because I happened to fall in love with a North American.
HJ: And where did you meet him?
L: We met there in Colombia. Yeah he was this backpacker that just pack and travel for years. So he was traveling from Beleza to Chile. And he travelled for a year and two months, and then he was right in Colombia with me.
HJ: Oh that’s so neat.
L: Yeah.
HJ: So you guys -- so you came back with him, or did you have to apply for a visa?
L: Well, yeah that was a little complicated because for both of us it was -- it’s like we really liked each other but none of us had the idea of you know getting bold with somebody who lives in another country. I wasn’t really thinking about it. But you know it was pretty special, it was powerful so we started just getting involved every time more without even noticing, and he went back after he finished his travel, he went back there and lived six months.
HJ: Went back to --?
L: To Cartagena.
HJ: Okay.
L: And he -- I was working in my thesis by that time. So he lived there for six months, and then he came back. We kept in touch. And then he came back for an entire year, and we moved in together there in Cartagena.
HJ: Okay, wow for a whole year.
L: And then -- for a whole year -- but then I got pregnant without planning
[Laughter]
L: Oh goodness, yeah. But by that time you know it was hard because we really loved each other, we wanted to have a baby, you know. I was -- he wanted to marry. He had more experience with relationships than I did. So I knew I loved him, and I wanted to be with him. But I didn’t really want to come here. But then when there’s a baby involved, it makes sense. So yeah we start doing the process. While I was pregnant we applied for a fiancé visa. And we went through the whole process, and our son was born there in Colombia.
HJ: He was born in Colombia.
L: Yes, in Cartagena. By that time I was working at the university, and I also was fulfilling some post-graduate studies there.
HJ: Okay. And what year was this?
L: It was in 2009. 2009, 2010. Our son was born in 2010. April 2010, four years ago.
HJ: Okay.
L: So I got the visa. When our son was born I was done with my studies and my contract at the university. We came here. So his family -- well his mom and his sister went to Cartagena to meet the baby. And they went before when we were -- when he lived here the first six months I told you, they came here to meet me because they were like “Who’s this girl, that he’s like coming back to stay?” So they were very curious, so I met his mom and sister, his twin sister. And then we came here and the rest of his family was able to meet our son. And they are from St. Louis, Missouri. So our son was three months old when we came here. And I guess by that time is when I started to immigrate here, I immigrated here, we get married, and I start applying for the residency.
HJ: Okay. And do you have permanent residency now?
L: I do, yeah.
HJ: Great.
L: I can apply for -- to be a citizen. But I’m not ready to do that yet.
HJ: Not yet?
L: No.
HJ: You still hope that maybe someday you’ll be able to go back to Colombia to live?
L: Oh I -- yes, we definitely want to do that.
HJ: And he wants to as well?
L: He wants to, yeah he loves Colombia.
HJ: Good. Does he speak Spanish?
L: He does. Yeah, he has an amazing level of Spanish.
HJ: That’s great.
L: And he loves it, he loves the culture, the language. So that’s good.
HJ: Yeah. Well, so in your house now you just have the one son, correct?
L: Mhmm.
HJ: Does he speak Spanish and English, or how are you guys teaching him both?
L: Yeah we are. There are differing approaches you know when you have a bilingual family, bicultural. And we choose the approach that is one part one language. So I am the Spanish native speaker so I always speak Spanish with him. And my husband always speaks English to him. And you know that’s the general idea, but sometimes we find ourselves all of us speaking Spanish or sometimes we find ourselves speaking English. But that’s very rare. But we try most of the time just speaking Spanish to him all the time, he will speak English to him. But he is stronger in English now. But that goes in waves. Because his first years it was Spanish because I was spending more time with him so he didn’t go to school, so it was me who was here most of the time. So he was stronger in Spanish. And then when he goes out and has more other friends, and my husband’s mother moved here to North Carolina from St. Louis, and he was spending more time with her. So that goes in waves, you know, which one, which language grows stronger than the other. And then we go to Colombia, spend some time there and then he speaks Spanish better. But now he’s stronger in English, a little bit. Like when he speaks Spanish he says words in English, like he’s got the Spanglish going on.
HJ: Aw, that’s great though that he’s fluent though in both languages. That’s a great skill to have. And then culture-wise, how do you guys incorporate both American and Colombian culture in your family?
L: That’s a challenge especially because I think that my husband is not a very conventional American, and I’m not a very conventional Colombian or Latino American. We are -- I mean we’ve been called all of our lives weird in our own culture. So you know it’s very interesting. I was thinking about that and especially now that we were in the Easter time, and that’s very a big deal in my country especially in my city, we host semana santa because everybody there -- not everybody but most of the people are some branches of Cristianismo. And I grew up Christian but you know I’m not -- I don’t have any religion right now. I have a lot of respect for religion, but I don’t have any right now. Or I don’t practice any. But it’s very hard to separate the religious part from the culture part of it. So -- and that also happens to me when it’s Christmastime. You know I really don’t have the motivation to celebrate Christmas, but it’s a cultural thing. And then my husband comes from Judaism. He grew up Jewish. So we are like --.
HJ: An interesting mix.
L: What do we do? So I try to do the cultural parts of it, and I even told myself, okay for next year, for Easter I want to learn how to make this, I don’t know, it’s something sweet that we make there in my city during Easter. We call it dulces. It’s like -- the only thing I can think of is like a jelly but not as thick. It’s fruit-based, it’s really cool.
HJ: And what do you call it?
L: Dulces.
HJ: Dulces, oh okay.
L: It’s something sweet, so it’s like coconut with sugar or milk and it’s delicious.
HJ: Oh okay, sounds good.
L: So during this time, we do that so I was thinking, ‘I’m going to do that so my son has that,’ you know that we do this during Easter. We don’t do the bunny or the Easter bunny or whatever. That doesn’t make sense to me. I don’t -- and my husband never had that either so --. So I try to take some aspects of the cultural things that I think are very important. And also I think about my childhood. I loved my childhood, that was the happiest time of my life. I have a beautiful childhood. And you know I really think that -- we didn’t think about Santa Claus, we thought it was a baby Jesus who brought the presents. So I really think it was, you know, the baby Jesus bringing presents. I have all these fantasies and it was fun. And I really want to raise our child very rationally, that doesn’t have any of those fantasies of thinking that, you know, there is a Santa Claus or there is a Easter Bunny or whatever. So I try to do something that is related with my husband’s culture, Judaism, or the American culture in general and also from my culture.
HJ: Okay. So you were saying you had a really beautiful childhood. How do you think your son’s childhood here will be different from that?
L: Oh my goodness, yeah. A lot different. You know I grew up in Cartagena in [12:16] like a city by the ocean. And it has changed a lot because even my husband keeps telling me that like you know children now in Cartagena don’t have the childhood that you used to have. I’m getting close to my thirties, so it’s been a while and that’s the dynamic of reality. Reality changes from different ways. But it was super fun. It was -- I grew up in a working class neighborhood when there were a ton of kids, and every afternoon when it was cooler, because it’s a very, very hot city, you know, ninety degrees year round.
HJ: Wow, that is hot.
L: Yeah, so when the sun got cooler, we would just go out, want to play. The houses are so close together. Sometimes there’s just one wall separating one house to the other so you can hear the neighbor. You know that’s how close we lived there. And it’s a hot city so it’s a lot of outside, you know, people sitting in their yards just catching the wind, we say. I don’t know how you say that but like refreshing yourself with the wind. So it’s very an outside place, windows open, doors open all day. And he doesn’t have that of course. When it was raining, that was celebration for us, oh my gosh, it’s raining. We just go out and play in the rain all the kids. And sometimes I do that with him, you know, ‘it’s raining, let’s go outside.’ Especially all during the summer because I loved that when I was a kid. And I always have dogs, and here I can’t have dogs because it’s like having another child that never grows up. It’s expensive. And I had dogs, but our dogs were very wild. They would just come and go inside the house, we would feed them, they would just -- we didn’t have to fix them, they would reproduce themselves. And it was fun to have a dog like that, and now I feel a little sad that I’m not providing that for him, he’s not going to have a pet because --.
HJ: It’s a lot of work.
L: Yeah, it’s a lot of work, a lot of responsibility that we don’t want to have. We like to put the effort in something different. So it’s very different, but you know different is good too, and he’s got all the aspects I think that I didn’t have. Like learning two different languages from the very beginning, being a part of two cultures. This is going to be enriching in it’s own way.
HJ: Yeah, it’s rewarding in a different way. So how do you think your role of a mother is different here in the States than if you had -- say if you had married a Colombian man, and stayed there, and had children there, how do you think your role as mother here is different?
L: It’s huge. First, I’m having the experience of being a mom in this community that is a very progressive community in this area. And that’s also has made a lot of the mom I’m becoming. And I have a lot of problems or conflicts I will say when I go visit in Colombia. I have everybody giving me opinions about how should I raise my son. This is a simple example. You know our son was -- he grew up there and we were there for his first three months of life. And there was a huge pressure there that I should give him formula. And then our son was very fussy. I mean he is a very intense child. And everybody would just say, ‘Oh because you’re not giving him formula, he’s hungry all the time.’ And we really wanted to breastfeed him because I got pregnant and the first thing we do is reading everything about it and how to raise, what’s the best thing to do more than listening to my mom and other women around, what should I do. And everybody’s saying like yeah and then I have little boobs and they say, ‘you know, you can’t produce much milk there, where is he going to get -- he’s always upset because he’s hungry.’ So I have a huge pressure about giving him formula there. And also with giving birth. We wanted to have a natural birth with no anesthesia or anything like that or the epidural. And everyone was like oh my gosh, that’s going to be -- even my mom that she’s a very open-minded person and I am the way I am because of her, she really raised me in a very unconventional way to be a woman there. But still, she will be like freaking out because it’s better just, you know, go and get your C-section planned. You’ll be safe for you, safer for you, for the kid. No, we wanted to do it natural. So it was -- and this was not in Colombia, this was in my city because there are parts in Colombia that are more progressive than this city where I lived and I grew up. And then here is all the opposite. You know I encounter -- when we moved I encountered my neighbor, and she was all the opposite. She was having so much pressure because she couldn’t give birth naturally, she had all these complications, and then she couldn’t breastfeed her child because he had a very high pallet. And then she was having the opposite problem that I had so I think it definitely affects a lot of the way I am a mom. And especially you know like healthy habits, like in my country, I think I would generalize that kids -- you just give sweets to them. And I grew up eating sweets like crazy, and I really hope they wouldn’t have done that to me because when I get anxious that’s what I want, I need sugar. And with my son we are trying not to do that. And I think I am able to do that. I raise -- I got an awareness about healthier habits because of my contact with this culture and my husband. I think otherwise I wouldn’t have them. That’s just an example.
HJ: Right. So you feel like you have more freedom here in the way that you raise him instead of being influenced by family and culture?
L: Yeah I think there you just do that, what your mom tells you to do, and I think even I would’ve done a lot of -- at least with eating and stuff like that, I think I would’ve just do whatever she would suggest me and say advice.
HJ: Do you feel like your role as a wife is different here? I know being a mother here is different, but do you feel like being a wife is different here?
L: Wow. I really don’t know what life I would’ve been there. I mean I never really pictured myself as a wife. [Laughs]
HJ: Really?
L: Yeah.
HJ: Until you met him?
L: Yeah I guess, and I realized that when I met him and all the women of my age were already looking for guys and even younger there. Cause there, women get pregnant and have children at a very young age. And that’s very common. Not all of them, but it’s very common. So you know I noticed when I met him that I have all these plans for my life and none of them included meeting someone. And I wasn’t looking for someone. And it was very uncomfortable to feel that way for him, why do I want to be around him? I mean no, this feels weird. I even told him just don’t email me or call me cause this just feels too weird. I have my life planned and now everything is moving. So I don’t know, I really have no idea how. And my mom that she -- this is really funny because she was an activist when she was a young woman, very left wing, you know against the emperio. How do you say that?
HJ: Emperio? Empire?
L: Yeah. That the U.S. is the empire, she was very left wing. And then when I met him, I was feeling like this, well my dad’s going to be an American and my mom’s going to be freaked out because it’s an American guy I’m having feelings for. But she was excited because she was like, ‘Yeah, I would’ve guessed that you wouldn’t fall in love with a Colombian.’ So she was just excited that I just fell in love and there was the hope of a grandchild.
[Laughter]
L: I don’t know if I’m making my point.
HJ: No, I understand. I think, was the word imperialism?
L: Imperialists, so she was against the imperialism. Like she was not very -- I thought she was going to be disappointed that I was getting involved with somebody from the emperio. That belonged to the --.
HJ: But she was just happy that you met somebody.
L: Yeah.
HJ: Was she disappointed before when you kind of decided that you maybe didn’t want to meet somebody or that you had different plans?
L: I didn’t -- I never decided, I just had --.
HJ: Just thoughts about it.
L: Yeah I mean it was not a conscious decision. I just -- it was not crossing my mind. You know I have a lot of aspirations. But meeting someone and having a family was not one of them. I just didn’t think about it. So I think she was partially, yeah, worried about it that I was just going to be a very successful, lonely woman.
[Laughter]
HJ: Yes, I can see how a mother would be concerned about that.
L: Yeah I do too now.
HJ: Well what do you think has been the biggest challenge being a mother, whether it’s here or just in general?
L: Wow. Biggest challenge. I have a lot of challenges. Biggest one?
HJ: Or one of the biggest ones.
L: One of the biggest ones. I think it’s funny because this is probably not one of the biggest ones but for some reason it’s the first one I thought of: learning how to drive. [Laughs]
HJ: Oh really?
L: Yeah.
HJ: That’s interesting.
L: Yeah, and I think I could only survive without driving for two years was here in Carrboro. Yeah with a child, with a baby. Because here I could take the bus, I walked a lot.
HJ: Right, everything’s close.
L: It has parks, I mean just walking different directions. So that was only possible here in Carrboro to survive a long time. And it was hard for me to learn how to drive. It was -- you know there was a lot of things going on also.
HJ: And you were able to get your license with the visa that you had at that time?
L: Yeah, yeah. I just didn’t know how to drive cause I never did it and they never said I needed to learn to drive at some point. I’m not crazy about cars, I never thought I was going to have a car. Even just me -- it’s like it’s really hard for someone who doesn’t come from that place to understand, but even when I was driving the first time, I’m there, I’m freaking out, I’m cold and pale and I want to turn and then my hands are just like this. Like I didn’t even know how to maneuver.
HJ: Yeah, it’s not natural.
L: Yeah so that’s how it was for me to drive. And I think just driving brought out a lot of inner tension about moving here and being in a different country.
HJ: Having to learn new things that you didn’t think were necessary before.
L: And also, yeah, and also coming from feeling very competent in my own city, my own circle to here when there’s so many things I had to learn. And then for the first time I am experiencing feeling incompetent doing something. And the motherhood also faced me with that feeling so it was just too much for me to take at the same time.
HJ: Yeah cause it’s all new and foreign, so you kind of have to start over learning the ways here.
L: Yeah.
HJ: Yeah, I can imagine how that would be really hard. Are you glad ultimately though that you made that decision to come here?
L: Yes, yes. I am glad and especially now that I feel like I’m finally in a better place, when I know how to drive and my son is older and I find jobs here because that was another thing, finding jobs here. You know coming from being a professor there of philosophy and here when nobody will hire me because I don’t have any references here, they all tell me, yeah you have this amazing curriculum back in Colombia but how about here? So how did you start, right? So I’ve been working not in my field, but I am giving classes in Spanish and working with that ONG that works with Latino families that have made my days happier. That’s how I started volunteering also.
HJ: At the Human Rights Center?
L: Yes. And I also tried El Centro Hispano, but my son was younger by that time and I really couldn’t make it because I tried to do the tutoring program and it was like 6:30 and that was bedtime. And I tried but it didn’t work. So I tried again like a year later with the Human Rights Center.
HJ: Good.
L: So finally I’m getting to know people and being useful so right now I’m in a very good position. And now I got into this program at UNC.
HJ: Yeah, that’s great.
L: So I’m like, okay all these hard times the past year, now I’m getting the results, and I’m understanding that I had to go through all that to get to being in a better place, like now.
HJ: Right. And you’re feeling more competent now here?
L: Yes, more competent, definitely. Yeah I have that feedback that I wasn’t having for almost three years.
HJ: Wow.
L: Yeah. It was hard, but you know it’s like everything. When you have those kinds of experiences where you feel really uncomfortable but once you get through it and you are over it you realize how much you learned from that.
HJ: And that it was worth it.
L: Yeah, that it was worth it.
HJ: Do you think you want to have more kids in the future? Have you guys thought about that?
L: Yeah we have talked about that a lot, and at first we thought we will have another one, we will adopt one.
HJ: Oh okay.
L: But after the actual experience of having a child and also how hard it’s been for me to resume my professional life, we think maybe we’re just going to stop there with one. Because we don’t really see when it’s going to happen.
HJ: Right, it’s a lot of work.
L: Yeah, it’s a lot of work, and then I don’t want to have another one and send him to daycare at the age of six months or something. I was with this one almost for three years or two years fulltime. And it’s not fair to have another one and just not can be the same way I did. Not exactly the same way, but at least half of it. So we don’t think so, no.
HJ: Okay. Do you think it will be harder to be a mother next year when you’re in school again? Or I guess your son will be also in school. Will he be in kindergarten?
L: No he’s going to -- first he’s going to be one year and going to be in class. That’s why I took this longer program. So he already goes to preschool three days a week, half days. So he’s -- it’s funny when I told him that mommy was going to school, he said ‘so who’s going to take care of me?’
[Laughter]
L: That’s what he’s worried about. He’s a worrier.
HJ: That’s sweet.
L: It’s funny, yeah. So I think it won’t change that much. And by the time I’m going to be busier, he’s going to go to preschool.
HJ: Okay, perfect. So you won’t miss out on much time with him?
L: Not much time, yeah.
HJ: Good. Well, let’s see. Yeah I think that was about all the questions, I had laid out. I didn’t know if you had any final thoughts or -- yeah, anything else to contribute?
L: I don’t know, I can’t think of anything right now.
HJ: Okay. No, that was great. It was really interesting to hear. It was a different perspective cause I’ve talked to several people but nobody who’s come here because they met somebody. So it was a different experience.
L: Yeah and that -- well, I can add this. I feel very out of place most of the time because where I’m coming from, the Colombian moms I encounter here, they came here first and then met their husbands here. And so they started from a desire of being in this culture and immigrated here, which was not my case. And also these moms that all of them are coming from a higher class level there in Colombia than I come from -- than I’m coming from. They are more like middle class there, and I come from working class there. So for me it’s always like a little barrier there between them and me because I don’t feel like I’m totally like them or we can really empathize in many things.
HJ: To relate.
L: Yeah to relate in many things, in many aspects of it. And also as I was saying at the beginning, all of them are coming from a different culture in Colombia than I’m coming from. I’m coming from the coast, and also sometimes there’s a little tension between the coast and the people from the interior because they think we’re lazy.
HJ: I didn’t know that.
L: Yeah.
HJ: That’s interesting. Do you also feel like there’s tension -- I know you do a lot of work with the Human Rights Center and other organizations. Do you ever feel like there’s tension between people who are still undocumented and you since you’ll be able to attain citizenship maybe one day if you want to? Do you think there’s tension there that it was -- that you kind of had that advantage to be able to obtain a visa?
L: Yeah, I don’t really think there is tension.
HJ: Good, that’s good.
L: I don’t think so. Yeah, all the opposite. I really feel when I work with the illegal immigrants that they’re so happy to have somebody that can speak Spanish to them.
HJ: Exactly.
L: And that, you know, they just -- and also I work at the -- this other organization I told you about that most of them are also illegal immigrants and families and they’re just happy to have someone they can speak Spanish to.
HJ: Who understands them.
L: Who understands them. So they don’t really think about like, oh you’re and legal immigrant, I’m not.
HJ: Cause you all still have the same experience of migration and change and challenge.
L: Yes, a similar experience. Because as I told you in my email, I came here as an immigrant, but I had a lot of guidance because my husband is from here. And then I have all his family that were crazy for me from the very beginning and very warm to me all this time. So I came here, and I found help and support.
HJ: And a community.
L: And a community. Yeah that’s right. And another thing is the same case with illegal immigrants.
HJ: They lack that community and the support often.
L: Probably they do have it but within the same illegal immigrant community.
HJ: Right, not from the outside.
L: Yeah, not from the people here in North America.
HJ: Which is unfortunate but true.
L: Yeah.
HJ: Okay well thank you again, this was so interesting to hear your story. So I appreciate you taking the time out.
L: Sure.
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Title
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R-0701 -- X, Lucia, pseud.
Description
An account of the resource
Hannah Jessen's interviews are a study of the lives of the mothers of migration, specifically the relationship between mother and child, the ways they support their families in a new context, the new concerns that come with raising their children in a different country, and their hopes for their families and for themselves in the future. In this interview with Lucia, Jessen hears from a migrant mother who was planning neither on coming to the United States, nor having children. However, her life was changed when she met her American husband while he was backpacking through her native Colombia. Now she is in the United States, studying to be a social worker at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and raising their four-year-old son. She is a non-conventional Colombian woman who offered a unique perspective on bilingualism and biculturalism, as well as on the reasons for migrating.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
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No restrictions. Open to research.
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21 April 2014
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R0701_Audio.mp3
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/20183">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>