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https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/bfec35b216b000cd7d52a31e724f64fa.mp3
bc6b9c7e8251a976625c52bd328744db
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/f8a2af3012fa07d594b73fc86d54762b.pdf
5fa6ddb2a2a7eb07b101af321d8a67b8
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-1010
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
Fecha
2023-05-31
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Martí, Norma.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Health services administrators
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1953
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Mayagüez -- Puerto Rico
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Raleigh -- Wake County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-67.13953399658203 18.20108413696289),1953,1;POINT(-78.64305877685547 35.77839279174805),1955,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Velásquez, Daniel.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
At a young age, Norma Martí migrated with her family from Puerto Rico to a diverse, working-class neighborhood in northwestern Indiana, part of metropolitan Chicago. She shares her formative experiences there, what enabled her to attain a college education, and her encounters with discrimination in her first role as an educator. She subsequently worked for the Census Bureau in Illinois and the Research Triangle Institute (RTI) in North Carolina, enhancing both organizations’ reach of Latino communities. In the late 1990s, Norma decided to focus on advocacy and outreach as Development Director for El Pueblo, a nonprofit organization based in Raleigh. By the mid-2000s, in a new role as Minority Outreach Specialist for the North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services (NC DHHS), Norma leveraged the connections she had built with various Latino organizations to expand Medicaid and children’s health insurance in Latino communities across the state. In 2020, Norma was called back from retirement to NC DHHS to help coordinate the agency’s COVID-19 response in the Latinx population. She has continued that work through her current role as Latinx Community Co-Lead for COVID Response for North Carolina’s Community Engagement Alliance (NC CEAL). She concludes by calling for unity and perseverance in Latino communities, and sharing words of wisdom for future leaders, which will include her grandchildren.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Norma Martí by Daniel Velásquez, 31 May 2023, R-1010, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29346
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
COVID-19; Community and social services and programs; Education; Healthcare; Racism and discrimination
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Administradores de servicios de salud
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
A una edad temprana, Norma Martí emigró con su familia desde Puerto Rico a un barrio de gran diversidad y de clase obrera en el noroeste de Indiana, a las afueras de Chicago. Allí comparte sus experiencias formativas, lo que le permitió alcanzar una educación universitaria, y sus encuentros con la discriminación en su primer papel como educadora. Posteriormente trabajó para la Oficina del Censo en Illinois y para el Research Triangle Institute (RTI, por sus siglas en ingles) en Carolina del Norte, mejorando el alcance de ambas organizaciones a las comunidades Latinas. A finales de los años 90, Norma decidió dedicarse a la promoción y la divulgación como Directora de Desarrollo de El Pueblo, una organización sin ánimo de lucro con sede en Raleigh. Ya a mediados de los 2000, en un nuevo rol como Especialista en Alcance a Minorías para el Departamento de Salud y Servicios Humanos de Carolina del Norte (NC DHHS, por sus siglas en ingles), Norma se apoyó en las conexiones que había establecido con varias organizaciones Latinas para expandir Medicaid y el seguro de salud infantil en comunidades Latinas de todo el estado. En 2020, Norma regresó de su jubilación a NC DHHS para ayudar a coordinar la respuesta de la agencia al COVID-19 en la población Latina. Ha continuado ese trabajo a través de su papel actual como Co-Líder de la Comunidad Latinx para la Respuesta al COVID de la Alianza de Participación Comunitaria de Carolina del Norte (NC CEAL, por sus siglas en ingles). Concluye pidiendo unidad y la perseverancia en las comunidades Latinas, y comparte consejos para futuros líderes, entre los que estarán sus nietos.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Norma Martí por Daniel Velásquez, 31 May 2023, R-1010, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
COVID-19; Cuidado de la salud; Educación; Programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios; Racismo y discriminación
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Daniel Velazquez: Okay, so today is the 31st of May of 2023. I am Daniel Velásquez. I am here with Norma Marti, who is currently the NC CEAL Latinx Community Co-Lead for COVID Response. And we are conducting this interview via Zoom. Norma, thank you so much for sitting down with me and sharing your story.
Norma Martí: Thank you, Daniel, for giving me this opportunity to take out some cobwebs from the mind.
DV: Okay, Norma, could you tell me about your personal background, where you were born, raised, and any early family experiences that you'd like to share?
NM: Yeah, sure. So, I was born in Mayaguez, Puerto Rico, basically about six months after the island got their Estado Libre Asociado designation, which to me is a glorified colony. But my dad had already been in Indiana, northwest Indiana, working in steel mills because there was not a lot of work. He came from a farm family and the farms weren't farming, and the land was being bought up by U.S. military, whatever. And so, he left and went to work in the steel mill. Mom was there with him, my two older sisters, and then got pregnant with me in the early fifties. And so, she just--. Because we're citizens and it's easy for us to cross the border—and again, we're only citizens by an act of Congress—she went back to Aguadilla, which is where my grandfather and her siblings lived. And that's where we stayed. So, when people ask me, I forget, I was born in Mayaguez, I always say I'm from Aguadilla because that's where the family, the abuelos were. And then she didn't come back to the States for three or more years, because Papi finally stood his ground and said: we need to be together, we’re a family. And so she came, never happy to come back to the States. So that's my early memories of why I'm here as opposed to there.
DV: Okay. So, your dad came first, and he went where?
NM: He was in Indiana. He went--. The story for Papi is that my dad was tall. And so, he was hired because the steel mills at the time would put an announcement, and like, day laborers today, all of them would just show up in the parking lot. And I don't know how they would select. But dad was tall. And all the other Latinos and people in the parking lot were short. So, they called on him. And he got a job at Standard Forge Steel Mill for, gosh, 25 years. And then they shut down and then he worked for Inland Steel. But again, it was a good paying job, right.
DV: Okay, and at what age did you finally come over with your mom?
NM: It was about when I was about three, three or four. I started kindergarten here in Indiana. So, again, dad was just a laborer, but he had--. It was good income, steady income, good benefits. His benefits actually paid for my mother's elder care when she needed to be cared for in her old age. So, East Chicago is a suburb, if you would, of Chicago. It's in Indiana but most of our media market was Chicago, so we knew everything about Chicago politics and life and nothing about Indiana and Indiana politics and life. It was a steel mill town. Everybody was blue collar pretty much. All our mothers spoke some language other than English, Polish, Ukrainian, Yugoslavian, Croatian, and the Blacks even had an accent when they spoke, the moms did, because they came up from the south, right. So, the teachers were the only ones that spoke standard English. So yeah, and each group had their own benevolent society and or church. Like the whites went to one Catholic church, the Mexicans went to one Catholic church. And so, it was just an interesting--. When I look back, it was an interesting, segregated, but yet still integrated. I don't know if that makes sense. So, things like my dad and his colleagues started the Brotherhood Social Club. It was a Puerto Rican thing. Friday night bingo, Saturday night bailes with orquesta from Chicago, the big names from Chicago. And Sundays, anything; potlucks, whatever, just to be together, these fifty to a hundred families, all from somewhere in Puerto Rico. We actually organized the first Puerto Rican Estado Libre Asociado Day on July 25th. My kids were little at the time, so it was in the mid ’80s, 1980s. Because we had to keep up with La Unión Benéfica Mexicana, which had the biggest parade in town for their Independence Day in September. So it was that kind of ethnic--. It was a friendly rivalry. We went to the parade. We had our own float in the Mexican parade. They had one in ours. So it was just never feeling foreign at all because of that environment until I went off to college. And that's a story unto itself. Again, my parents were happy having us graduate from high school. That for them--. They had a third-grade education, so, for them to--. For us to finish high school was success. But I had a high school counselor who really mentored me. I was really blessed. Marty Quinn, may he rest in peace. And so, he had me visiting all the colleges in Illinois and Indiana; we didn't have any money to send me to school. But I went to Dominican College up in Wisconsin, which is where his daughter actually was attending. And he was able to get a scholarship for me.
DV: Wow.
NM: So that was pretty amazing that I was, again, I call these folks angels in my life. They just, they're there, they see a spark or something in me and they guide me to what I should be doing. But Wisconsin was five hours away from East Chicago and I had never been away from my family. And so, I was homesick, very homesick. And so, I transferred then my second—sophomore year—to Purdue in West Lafayette. No scholarship. Papi paid the whole thing. I worked summers in the steel mills to help with the tuition, which at that time was two hundred dollars a semester, but that was a lot of money in the 1970s, alright? And my parents never owned a house. I call my education their investment. So, anyway, on that, I got a BA in secondary education and a minor in Spanish, of course. I remember applying to eighty-seven, and I remember eighty-seven schools to be a teacher.
DV: Did you have any experiences within college that you want to share about before you move on to teaching?
NM: College. We tried to organize a Latino group. Again, those of us that grew up in East Chicago in that area that went to Purdue, tried to get together. We just weren't strong--. There weren't enough of us. But the Blacks got a Black student union, and they gave us a room that we could then go meet in to just plan and organize and celebrate our own things. I was on the Dean's List. I graduated with honors in my BA. Yeah, it was--. Dr. Gonzalez, I guess I've mentioned her to you before. She was married to Dr. Gonzalez, who was Puerto Rican. She was white, but she became, again, one of those angels in my life that I'll tell you a little bit more about her later on as I talk about my professional development. But again, having those, the Gonzalezes there made it possible. I got an F on my first English paper. I had never gotten anything but A’s in high school. How the hell did I get an F on my first college education? I did not at Dominican, but somehow at Purdue I did. And she coached me and instructed me, gave me little hints about what I was doing or not doing correctly. And I ended up, like I said, on the Dean's List graduating with honors by the time I got it.
DV: Did you always have teaching as a plan? That was what you wanted to do?
NM: Yeah, I mean, again, I come from a generation where you were either a teacher or maybe a nurse. There weren't a whole lot of secretaries there weren't a whole lot of ladder-climbing days back then. And I wanted to be a teacher but, I mean a doctor, but when I saw my dad changing my sister's bandages after a surgery I completely freaked out. He had to come and get me and neglected my sister who needed to have her bandages put back on. So, I realized then at a very young age that I probably couldn't stand being a doctor. And I love teaching. I've always enjoyed teaching regardless of the subject. I enjoy sharing and learning with my students. So yeah.
DV: Okay, so tell us about your teaching career.
NM: Okay, so my teaching career, again, I sent out eighty-seven applications all around Illinois, Indiana, and I even went to Wisconsin. I had one interview, one interview, a telephone interview at that, and I was not going to take the job. My dad said: well why, it's the only one you've had, it's here in Indiana. I said, dad, but it's way over there in Fort Wayne and the darn principal called me--. He said: we've never had a foreigner in our school before.
DV: Wow.
NM: And so, and now looking back, there weren't any Blacks in that school either, any Black students or teachers. So, I really was a foreigner in many ways. So, my dad insisted that I needed to take that job and teach that man a lesson. And then this is where the Dr. Gonzalez story--. I was ready to quit after my first semester. I was like, this--. He was just so--. Those little micro-aggressive comments that he would make every single day. I hated them. And he would even say them in front of my students, which I totally resented. And so, I just remember dad, I mean I was telling my dad. And he said: if you don't want to go, come back home, you're fine. And I was talking again, Dr. Gonzalez continued mentoring us as we moved on into our careers. And she said, no, no, let me come. She was an English teacher. So, she said let me come, let me do a lesson in your class. And when I told the racist principal that I was having this person from Purdue University come and teach me class. He was like, Purdue in Lafayette? I go, yes, yes. He says, oh, that's wonderful. Well after that I was like--. He stopped the aggressions and I ended up staying there another year and got a new principal who was wonderful, was what a principal should be. He would sit in my Spanish classes and to do my teacher evaluation one time. And I didn't even know he was in my class. I used to, this is again, old school, we had to go into a lab with headphones and listen to Spanish tape conversations, right. And so, I would play lotería with my students at the end with the vocabulary of the week, right. And this kid says, bing--. You know, lotería, lotería! and I look and go, who's that kid in that? I don't have a kid in that seat. Well, it turned out it was the principal. [Laughter]. He was in there evaluating my performance that day. And he came back at the end of the class, and he says: Ms. Martí, that was, I think I've learned more Spanish in these 45 minutes than I had in all my undergraduate classes in Spanish in college. And I said, well, thank you. That's great. So it was, it was kind of a day-and-night. The first year I wanted to just sink into a hole and, I mean, I was totally depressed because this man was just so negative on anything. I can't even begin to tell you the words he would use but this really demeaning of me, of me as a--. Oh, yeah, she's that woman, she speaks another language, I just--. You hired me to teach Spanish, people, you know? I’m sorry. And so, and then having this gentleman who was an amazing educator and encouraged all of us to be the best teachers we could be. So that was my first year of teaching. I didn't leave teaching because of that. Again, I left because I was still--. By this time I'm twenty, what, four or five? I was still homesick. I was in Fort Wayne, Indiana, a little town called Churubusco, named after the Mexican Hollywood, right, go figure, the Spanish-American War. So, it was like three hours away from--. It's like saying Asheville to Raleigh, it's just too far to go every weekend. And so, I went back home to go to graduate school. I never did finish graduate school, but at least I moved from teaching to social work, if you would, public health at that point. And worked at the Roberto Clemente Neighborhood Center in East Chicago, Indiana, where we offered programs for the Latino community in that particular area, mostly Mexican American, even though the center was named Roberto Clemente, it was just because the Puerto Ricans had more political clout than the Mexicans at that point, although they'd been there longer than we had as a population. Loved it. We had senior citizens, a Black senior citizen group, a Latina senior citizen group. We had teams for the kids. We opened a daycare for the moms to bring their kids. It was just a wonderful, again, not a teaching experience, but a completely different way of growing and learning what social programs could do to enhance the neighborhood. So that was my first foray into what I would call social work-slash-public health in Indiana. And then I came out this way. Well, no--.
DV: How long were you at the center?
NM: At the Roberto Clemente Center? Gosh, it’s been so many years. It was three or four years. Then I went to work in the--. I had a woman from the, it must have been the 19-, pre-1980 census come to talk to our community about the importance of the census. And she offered me a job. Ta-da! I'm perfectly happy right where I'm at. And she's like, oh, you're just what we're looking for, we need. And I think the position was called Community Services Specialist or something like that. And you could work in our Chicago office, but you'd be working Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin, it's our regional office, you're just what I want. And I’m thinking, I'm not looking for a job, but thank you, if I think of anybody, I'll let you know. The woman kept calling me, Mary Grady, gosh, I hadn't thought of her in years.
DV: Wow.
NM: Mary Grady, and she kept calling me, and I finally thought, well, what the hell, let me just try it. I don't know what that means. And I loved my work at the Census Bureau in Chicago’s Regional Office. I was there for a good ten or more years, yeah. Ninety eighty censuses, and I think the beginning of the ninety censuses. So, yeah. Did a lot of traveling in those three states, worked with indigenous populations up in Wisconsin and a lot of African American and Latinos in Chicago City metro area, and then of course the folks in Indiana. My one story on that one, now that I'm thinking about stories, was being in Indianapolis talking to the Chamber of Commerce about the census, of course, right. I was, at that particular point in time, I was the regional director of the northern half of Indiana for the 1980 census, I want to say, 1980. It could have been the ninety. It was one of those two. And they were just talking away about how they couldn't hardly wait for that area to fall apart so they could buy up that land by the lake and just start building up some condos and blah, blah, blah, blah. And once we get rid of all those people, and I’m sitting there listening to this, right. This is where I live. This is northern Indiana. And I just sat there, and I thought, I don't believe that they're just--. They didn't even see me. I was in the room. I was there to speak to them. They still didn't even see me. And they continued with their little racist comments about getting rid of all these people of color and getting them out so they could build their condos on the beach. Well, last time I went to northwest Indiana, it's been a while, there are no condos at the beach, but they surely did get rid of all the minorities. By default, the jobs left. And so, again, we go where the jobs are, which is how I then got to North Carolina. After the census, I was offered a job with RTI International. How did I? The census was--. Wanted me to move to D.C. or something, I can't even remember now, it was Charlotte, D.C., and I thought, there are no Latinos there. I don't want to go there. I don't want to go to D.C. My family is here, kids. So, I decided I would do something else. I went back to teaching at a high school, my old high school. And then I got a part-time job because that's what we all do, Latinos. We work two, three, four jobs. And I was still married, but it was just--. The marriage was falling apart, and I could feel it. I got a fellowship for the University of Chicago to work in public health, and I accepted it, but then I got pregnant, and it just became very difficult to finish that curriculum. And so, I got an offer from a friend to work as a supervisor for interviews that were being done by RTI in Chicago. And I did that. And at the end of that cycle, he asked, wouldn't you like to come work at RTI in North Carolina? And I'm like, North Carolina? Let me look that up in the map. [Laughter]. And that's how I--. That’s how, what kind of work? It was--.
DV: What kind of interviews, before you even came to North Carolina, were they doing?
NM: They were interviewing for positions in their survey center here. RTI at the time had four or five different centers, each one focused on--. One was on education, one was on health, one was on international aid. I can't remember the others, but those are the three that I worked on when I was there. So, the boss came and interviewed me. He was doing interviews in Chicago for recruiting staff here in North Carolina, and they offered me a job. And I thought I was--. Like I said, I went back to teaching. I was worried about the kids and health insurance, right. They were growing. My son was ten years old. I'd gotten divorced at that point. And the little one was three, four. And I thought, gosh, health insurance. And then I looked up the area. And I thought, Raleigh--. I didn't like Charlotte, go figure. But Raleigh had the universities, and I kept thinking: well, when they grow up, they can commute and they’d still get a great education if I’m in Raleigh, right. So, let’s do it. I took the job. The only job that's ever moved me, literally paid for my move. I mean, the van, the big moving truck.
DV: Wow.
NM: People that came and packed my house. I was like, all of them. Like I was on cloud nine. And, and the big salary of what, $33,000 a year back in the day in 1991, July first. They actually paid me as of July first, although I didn't start until July fifteenth. They put us up in a hotel until the apartment became available. I mean, it was really, it was a really great blessing. Again, just a fluke that someone that I had worked with at the census was now working at RTI, and they recommended. And so, again, those connections that you make are so important in your life, and you don't always know who it is that's going to open up that door for you.
DV: Okay, I was going to ask you who it was. It was someone you knew from the census days?
NM: Yeah, somebody that worked with us at the census in Chicago took a job at RTI. Gosh, I can't, Brian, I can't remember his last name. Isn’t that terrible? Brian something. Oh my God, it'll come to me at some point. I didn't write him down. There's a lot of--. You don't get to my age and the place that I am now in my—I call it my fulfillment of my career—again, unless people have opened doors for you, unless people recognize something in you that you don't even recognize in yourself. So, I came to work in the Center for Education Research, did lots of national studies across the country. The post-secondary student aid study was the biggest one. Went everywhere, Dallas, and anywhere there were Latinos, Dallas, L.A., Phoenix, Chicago, Puerto Rico even, to do these, to do the training. And again, back in the day, we’re talking paper-and-pencil interviewing. There were no online surveys like there are today, no websites, that kind of thing. So, I had to train the interviewers. And the two things that happened at RTI was I made them realize that instruments are, if you validate an instrument in English to make the data trustworthy, reliable, then you've got to do the same thing with the Spanish. And you've got to have it translated by a professional, not by a graduate student at UNC. Because when you're feeling blue, it's not te sientes azul. It just isn't. And so, I finally got them to recognize that they needed to have a review team, and that they also needed to have a protocol in place for hiring what were called bilingual interviewers. Again, just because you speak or can read a language doesn't mean you really speak it well, right. And so today I can honestly say that they actually have a group, a professional group at RTI that reviews all their translations and trains all of their interviewers, or people that are on those different surveys. But back in the day, 1981, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 [Laughter], it was Norma. And a lot of wonderful people in those areas. But again, I lived in North Carolina, but I didn't live here because I was always on the road. My mom, mommy was here. My dad had passed away, so mommy was here helping me raise the kids, watching them. Again, church members, the whole village helping me raise these two beautiful adults that I have today. So, yeah, I decided at that point that I needed to--. My son was graduating from high school, going on to college. He went to NC State, sorry--. He did. [Laughter]. Both my kids. So El Pueblo was advertising for a development director. I had to look up what development director was, and I thought, oh, I think I could do that. So, I interviewed with, at that time, Andrea Bassan was Executive Director, and Melanie Chernoff was Assistant. They interviewed me, again, saw something in me that I probably didn't see in myself, and they said: sure, come on, join us. And so, I took a half a salary cut in pay to go work at El Pueblo, which is not something I recommend to anybody. I'm sorry, you know. Now in my old age, I kind of miss that income I would have had at RTI. But notwithstanding, I didn’t gain money, but I gained me. Fiesta del Pueblo was the only fiesta with Lat--. At that time in the whole state. And so, we got the music, the comida. My daughter and I wouldn't miss a fiesta del pueblo before I got hired by them. And so, when I got hired, I made a commitment to take a certification course at Duke so that I could learn what a development director was supposed to do. And so, I'm happy to say that I kept the budget intact those two years that I was there, came pretty close to a million, if not more, of donations. And again, I just couldn't make my life work on the salary that a nonprofit paid at that time in my life. And so, my son was in college. I didn't realize that I was helping him pay for that. And so, it was hard. And so, I--. Again, a friend said, hey, look, there's this job at the state and it's got your name on it. It's you. And I'm like, okay, I'm not really looking for a job. I quit at El Pueblo—no, I was really looking for a job. I quit El Pueblo after the last fiesta of that year, 2005, 6, and I just need to chill.
DV: Actually, tell us more about El Pueblo. What kind of work was, does El Pueblo, or did El Pueblo do at the time?
NM: At the time, El Pueblo, like I said, we were like the only Latino advocate group out there, or at least visibly. So we did a lot of advocacies in terms of--. I remember, again, talking with state legislators, department chairmen on license, trying to get the license to be valid proof of residency regardless of your status. We did the Fiesta del Pueblo, which was the biggest thing, and we did a youth photo that I really miss. I don't see that anymore anywhere, but we used to do a youth photo and did it in Greensboro one year, we did it in Raleigh, I want to say Charlotte. But again, bringing young people in to have speakers and have them interact with each other and to grow. We had a lot of grants that we put together to work on things like literacy. We had a Smart Start grant that hired, who is now my best friend, Margarita Cassini, to go to the community, to trailers, to apartment complexes to talk about literacy and the importance of reading to children. We had a Susan G. Komen grant. My dear, dear, dear Colombian friend, Maria Eugenia Cerron, who passed away from cancer a couple years ago was our leader in that effort. So, again, we had a really, it was just a familia. I didn't have my familia here, and I hadn't had it while I was at RTI because I was all over the darn place. But here, that, I mean, I'm still, Melanie is still--. Melanie baked me a cake for my seventieth birthday. So, I mean, these are still people that I call family. And yeah, so that was what El Pueblo did for me. That was my richness. That was my, that's what I banked my retirement on. All those connections that I made those two or three years. And then I built on that when I got hired at the state. Again, my friend Carolyn Sexton hired me to work at Department—then the Division of Public Health, which is part of NC DHHS, working as a minority outreach specialist, a title that was just made up. There was no coordinator, there was no staff, it was just me. And we were trying to promote the state's children's health insurance program. At the time it had just been legislated by the Clinton Administration, and so we needed to get the word out to get--. I think the first year they only had like forty thousand slots, and they completely filled up.
DV: What year was this now?
NM: Early, mid-2000s; 5, 6, 7. And that range is when I started at the state. And again, with legislation and lobbying, both from organizations like NC Child, El Pueblo, and since we found lots of different groups started cropping up then across the state. AMEXCAN, I mean, just a whole bunch of Latino-led folks whose voices were now being listened to en masse at the state, at the general assembly. Those numbers grew and to the point where I think we had almost a hundred thousand children enrolled in our health check, it’s what we called it back then. I don't know what they're calling it now. But we were like 95% enrolled eligible children in the state when I left in 2019. So, I think, again, nothing I did--. But I had built this wonderful familia with El Pueblo and people that came to our Fiesta and then again, all these organizations that started developing, that across the state with, again, leadership from rural as well as urban areas in the state. Latin American Coalition in Charlotte. I mean, just True Bridge on the west end. I mean, all these wonderful organizations that supported the work that we were trying to do of getting families enrolled in Medicaid and CHIP. And then what I thought is my most successful point in that career, in my life, is when I went to an event at the Hmong, that the Hmong community had in Morganton--. In Hickory. And when I walked in I felt like I had walked into the Brotherhood Social Club, except that they spoke Hmong and not Spanish. And so, it was just like stepping back in time, realizing that they were doing just what my family, my parents, and that whole cohort had done for us, trying to make the community recognize that they're there, that they deserve services, that they are good people. They're just great. The men were all in their little suits and we're all talking, and they brought up the mayor and they brought up the county commissioner. And I said, gosh, I'm like I'm at the Brotherhood Social Club, but they're speaking Hmong. It's so amazing. And the women were over in the table making all of their wonderful dishes. And I just, I felt I had finally been successful because not only was I getting to my people, as I call them, mi gente, regardless of their nationality, but I was also reaching these other communities that also needed to be included. So when the refugee community honored me by saying that I was one of their--. One of them, I felt successful. Not just because I felt I owed it to my community to do what I was doing, but to include them and to make them feel welcomed and entitled, was really wonderful. So, yeah.
DV: That’s wonderful.
NM: Yeah. I retired.
DV: How long did you work for the state before you retired?
NM: Twelve years only. I just--. It was time. Age was the factor. I could collect Social Security, which was--. And I figured, I wasn't making a whole lot of money, but I wasn't making--. I mean, comparable to what I was making as a state employee. And so, I thought I could live on this. And again, I've never been very good at financial, very good at financial strategies for my life, but I'm happy. It doesn't matter. I'm happy. And so, I stopped in 2019. I took my grandson to D.C., my granddaughter to Wilmington. I went to Sedona, and then I went to Cuba to do one of my last mission trips that I've done, I've done Nicaragua, Guatemala, and I got to do Cuba just before COVID.
DV: Mission trips, what do you mean?
NM: Well, most of them were church related. Or in the case of Cuba, it's a Witness for Peace/solidarity, which was created by my dear friend, Gail Phares, back in the mid-80s when the Iran-Contra reality was happening in Latin America. And again, we’re so tied to the migration to the U.S., and the push and pull at the border, we don't see that all of that has to do with our policies in D.C. I mean, I'm a, like I said, I'm a citizen by an act of Congress, not because I or my people voted to be citizens, right. So, the mission trips are usually church groups or non-profits that will take a group of folks in the U.S. to a country to get to see how people live. And to understand the policies of America, the U.S., and how those policies affect the people living in these neighboring countries, our neighbors, our brothers and sisters. And so, Nicaragua, I went, I can't remember what year all of this. Guatemala was my first one, I went twice. And my son actually went on a mission trip his senior year in high school, and it makes you see--. Mission trips for me made me realize that we are really just all one. We’re all one, whatever your belief system is, if you believe in a God or don't believe, we're all--. When I went to Guatemala, I felt like I had gone back to Puerto Rico and my grandmother's stories of how my grandmother lived in this little hut with a dirt floor, and they would throw water on it to pat it down. That's what I was living in when I went to Guatemala fifty years later. And I'm like, we're all the same. We've had different histories maybe, different ways of getting to where we are. But--. pero somos uno. Somos uno en Dios, en el universo. We have that. There's a little DNA that just trickles through every person on the planet. We may look different. Our accents may be different. Our histories may be different. But basically, what we want is the same thing. It's happiness. What's that, what's the constitutional thing, the pursuit of happiness? Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Well, they got that right. I mean that really is what every human being wants: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And so mission trips let me see that. And Cuba was, again—my last name is Martí—so it was just awesome to drive into--. Fly into Martí International Airport. [Laughter]. I claim him as an uncle, but he was on that island and my family was from the other island. At some point the Martís from Europe were the same, and then they came through the Caribbean and settled in different islands. I always say he looks like my dad, when my dad was young, José Martí does. But anyway--. And just the struggle of the people of Cuba, and the struggle they're still living today, simply because we can't get over something that happened sixty years ago. It's just like, I don't know. I mean, people are starving and dying because of an ideology. That just doesn't seem right to me. It doesn't seem moral to me. I mean, we do it here, too, right? We have families who are hungry and starving that shouldn't have to be. But when you see it on an island, at the level--. And the spirit of the Cuban people is just amazing. And of all of the people, the Guatemalans, the Nicaraguans. Yeah, so I love that experience that my faith has brought into my, in my world. It complements the work that I do here, because, again, I've established good working relationships with the Guatemalan community, Nicaraguan, and Cuban. Sometimes we butt heads, but they're still my brothers and sisters. And so, it helps me do the work here as well.
This just reminds me that a couple of--. Last year, the NC Justice Center awarded me the Lifetime Defender of Justice Award. And when they called me, I thought, did you get the right number? I haven't done anything to defend justice. And so, it was like: yeah, Norma, you’ve been nominated and the board agreed that you should get this. And I'm like, I don't understand. And so, when I was telling all my friends, I said I don't understand why I got this award. And they're like, what do you mean you don't understand? And so, they started telling me, look, you've done this and this and this. And I'm like, yeah, but those were, I mean, they were my jobs, they were my faith. That was what I was supposed to be doing. I wasn't doing anything that I wasn't supposed to be doing. That we're not all supposed to be doing, right? And then they reminded me that not everybody does do everything that I do. And I said: oh, okay. Well then, okay, let's go! And so, I got three tables worth of friends to pay an outrageous amount of money to get a chicken dinner [Laughter], but to support the Justice Center and to receive the award with me, because it wasn't for me, it was for us as a community and as people that have struggled. So, I had some of my community health workers there. I had folks from DPH , and from different churches, and from Duke, and from UNC. I mean, again, everybody that's been a part of my world was invited to come and three tables worth of people showed up. So, I was pretty excited. That meant more to me than the award. [Laughter]. That did, yeah.
DV: Did you do the mission work for a long time, or is that something that you were doing after retirement?
NM: No, no, that's a thing I did while I was working.
DV: Okay.
NM: Yeah. 19--. 1999, 2000, 2001, I went to Guatemala.
DV: Oh, wow.
NM: 2017, I think, I went to Nicaragua. Oh, and then we went to Puerto Rico after the hurricane, as part of--. My own people needed help. And so, we went to Puerto Rico to help rebuild some homes of folks on the island. And then Cuba in 2019. It was the first one after retirement. The other ones were all done while I was working. Again, my job doesn't stop with the paycheck. It extends into the rest of the day and the world. I don't know, that's just how I've seen my life. It's all of it. It's what you do on Saturdays and Sundays. And, yeah, it's all of it.
DV: And I know that you didn't stay fully retired for long. [Laughter].
NM: Some would say I haven't retired. Yeah. Well, COVID came, and with COVID came a call from NC DHHS, one of my colleagues that I'd worked with had just been made Deputy Director, Ben Money. And Ben called me and said: we need you to help us. And I go, well, what's going on? I mean, I knew that--. I knew what was going on. I was, but what is it? He says: Norma, we have 75% of patients at Duke today that are Latino. And there's--. We're only 9% of the population. And I go, my God, what are you guys doing? How are you telling people? And he says, well, that's why I'm calling you. I want you to come on board and help us. And so I thought it was a volunteer thing because, again, I don't think of money as I should, but I don't. He says no, we want you to come back, we know you're retired so maybe part-time. I go, oh, okay, you're going to pay me. Yeah, sure, I'll do it. And so, but they paid me. But what I did was, that money, I gave it to people who were not working and who were, who needed groceries and whatever. Because I figured it wasn't supposed to be for me, it was supposed to be to help the community. So, I did. I mean, I helped me, too. I went to the beach, probably more than I've ever gone to the beach in North Carolina, for my sanity. But it was really great working with Dr. Cohen and her team of deputy directors. They stepped up. We would tell Dr. Cohen that the community had a concern in whatever, Durham, Hickory, whatever, at 8 o'clock at night, and that woman would be on a Zoom call with us to answer every single question, and she followed up with every single complaint that was given by the community. The first week that I came on board, she told us at the end of this week, I want you to give away a half a million dollars so that we can get organizations to start giving the message out. So, we did. We gave five organizations $100,000. And I told them, help us get the word out, help us create the right messages, help us to do this work, and I am so proud of that work that they did. I didn't do--. I didn't create any of that. They did it all, and we curved it. I mean, we got it. We got the place where the Latino population, by the time I left, a year later—was only supposed to be for six months, it turned out to be a year—the numbers were at least, by the time we had a vaccination available, the numbers of Latinos who had vaccinated was higher than any of the other groups in the state. And so, for that, I am eternally grateful, eternally grateful. And again, as with everything, you don't do a job and walk away. You let the institution know where their holes are. And there was holes that you had to call somebody in from retirement to help you reach out to a community? Why don't you have a position in the department, hello, that already has the pulse of the community and can tell you what needs to be told and can reach out immediately. I mean, like we did within a week. But again, I wasn't part of the department at that point. I was brought in. And so, yeah, so they listened and we, they're listening. And we have some really great people at NCDHHS today. You need more, but we have some really good folks there.
DV: Thanks for sharing all of that, Norma. Considering all of these experiences, what would you say were some of the challenges and barriers that you faced in your journey? How have you addressed them?
NM: I think the challenge is understanding what you're walking into. And again, if you don't have the skill set because of your education, then go find that skill set. Take a course. Get a certificate. Always, always, always speak up when something is a deficit. Don't take it on as another task to do on top of what you were hired to do. And I think that's the hardest thing to do. It’s like, can you take a look at this translation? You know, there are professionals that do that. I'll take a look at this today, but I think you need to--. I can give you some names and numbers and contacts for you to get a professional person to be looking at this translation. And so, it's those challenges, it's doing what you're charged to do and not more. Again, I never got paid more for being bilingual. I know I never was at the top of the payroll scale. And yet there were many times I was doing two jobs, one in English and one in Spanish. So yeah, that I think is the biggest thing. Prepare yourself, educate yourself, and don't let people use you. Stand up for what you know is your space and not just feel like: I've got to hold on to this job, so I've got to do what they're telling me. I've been blessed that every job I've had I've loved. But that doesn't mean each one of them didn't offer challenges. Like I said, the racism will slap you in the face. You take the slap, but then you just move forward and find a way to educate that person that slapped you so that they don't do it again, or at least not to your face. So, I don't know. Does that make sense?
DV: Yeah, yeah, it does. Thank you. Turning that around, instead of thinking of challenges; you've spoken of angels that helped you along the way. Besides the angels, what are some of the main factors that you can pinpoint that you think have helped you? It could be something abstract, like a way of thinking, or tangible, specific people like you mentioned.
NM: Yeah, I've mentioned all the, I think I've mentioned all the people, if not, forgive me. Those of you who know me who helped me, if I didn't mention you. It's been a long trajectory. So, I think it's we are not--. Again, I'm talking my generation of Latina women. We were not taught that we could do anything other than maybe be a mother, maybe be a wife. I mean, those were the expected roles. And I love my children. I love being an abuelita. I mean, that's like my favorite job today. But that is not all who we are. We are, we have a passion inside of us. And whatever that passion is, find a way to express it. Don't let anybody block you from--. I mean we have limitations. Obviously, I would have loved to finish my master's and always wanted a doctorate, so never did all that, but I never let that stop me from seeking opportunities that were presented to me and saying: well I don't know, maybe I could do that. I could do that. And I did do that. And I did do that not by myself, but again, by educating myself and seeking partners that had the resources or the skill sets that maybe I didn't have. Finding partners is probably the most important thing in terms of barriers because you're not going to knock it down by yourself. Hundreds of people have tried that for centuries. And I look at the African-American experience in North Carolina, and as--. What, three hundred, four hundred, five, four hundred years if my math is right, four hundred-plus years of constant, constant, constant, constant, constant, constant, constant drilling down on a people. To me, it's--. They're my heroes. The fact that they survived all of that negativity and God-awfulness that was imposed on them. And it's the same thing with our people. We've had some pretty nasty shit thrown at us in the decades of the United States of America. But we have to--. We're here and we're not going anywhere. This is our country. This is our home. This is where my grandchildren will make a difference in the world. From here, they will make a difference in the world. And so, be proud of that heritage, but don't let anybody diminish it. And teach them, as much as learn from them, teach them. Yeah, yeah, that's pretty abstract.
DV: Thank you.
NM: But I can't put it into like go do A, B, C. Whatever that teaching opportunity is for you, whether it's a certificate, whether it's a couple of classes. I mean, my latest thing is meditation. My goal in life now for the next however many years I'm allowed to breathe on this planet is to ask my Latina women, my daughters and my nieces and my nephews, and boys too, the nephews and the sons, to take a deep breath. And to find that inner peace that is there and whatever you want to call it; God, energy, spirit, whatever you want to call it, there is this force within all of us that's just really divine. And if you let it come out, people may see it. You may not see it, but other people will see it. And so, give yourself that time to just pause, reflect, and then go do something. It's not just say it, do it.
DV: So this is what you've been up to lately, meditation?
NM: Yeah. Well, my NC CEAL work is winding down. I had a wonderful review with Wake Forest University that's doing, for the first time ever, a Spanish language intervention called Pain Trainer for people with major pain or terminal pain that medication doesn't always resolve, it’s an eight-module intervention on finding that place of tranquility and calmness within you and not focusing on the pain. It's a wonderful medical intervention, right. You're talking about meditation as a tool in the world of health. And so, they've translated into Spanish. It's been wonderful being on that team at Wake Forest. Again, they had it professionally translated, but then they brought together this group of folks, me and ten other people across the state from different nationalities to look at it, to make sure that language spoke to all of our nationalities and that the people on the computer screen look like us. So, yeah, that's been a wonder. It's finished, but it's a wonderful project. Stay tuned and look for it. Again, it'll be online. It'll be free. I've done some work with Duke along the same lines in terms of meditation and training. I'm finishing a certificate with the Chopra Center on Meditation. Deepak Chopra is probably one of the most renowned U.S. medical doctors has addressed the value of meditation as a health equalizer. Again, it brings down all the bad things and brings up all the good things. So, blood pressure, heart, chronic disease, all those measures will lessen if you spend some time meditating. And so, my goal is, in the next four or five years, is to have that Casa de la Abuelita, where I can teach meditation to my girls. To all the women and men, Latinos. I am going to be a little segregationist about it. I really want to focus on the Latino population and teaching us to breathe, to see that inner beauty that's in all of us and that strength that we have inherited from our ancestors. Yeah, that's what I hope I can do in the next decade or so.
DV: That's awesome. Norma, I think we skipped your work with NC CEAL. Can you tell us a bit about how that's been going on?
NM: Sure, that's been the last two years, and it's been wonderful work. Year one, we were still kind of the tail-end, middle-end. Vaccination was going.
56:30 DV: First--. So you were working for the state and then you left that. They were hiring other folks to take over. So, was it immediately after that you started working for NC CEAL?
NM: Actually, I took the NC CEAL job thinking that I would be done with the state job in December. So I started in January of 2021.
DV: Oh, okay.
NM: But then they didn't hire the persons, the people, and so the state asked me to stay for a few more months, and so I was kind of double, double. But this isn't a job, it's not like nine to five, it's really just a, it's an honorarium that we get from UNC School of Medicine, Center for Community Partnerships and Health, I think is what CCPH stands for. So, I was able to do that. And those first few months was really just recruiting a team to work with us to help create materials that were still needed in our Latino community. And so, again, because of the work that I've done in the state, my dear friend Dr. Krista Perreira called me and says: come and join us on NC CEAL. I'd like you to be--. She's the academic co-lead, the community co-lead for the Latino, Latinx Community Response team. And so, what we did in year one was we brought together ten young--. And I told her, Krista, we need young people. She says, what? I said anybody under forty? Because, again, we want to build up the leadership of the Latino community. It's okay to get the executive directors of all of these organizations, but they're busy. Let's get some of the people that work with them, but that need to maybe get some leadership and connect with each other as leaders, young leaders in the state. And so, we got ten folks together. They're a wonderful team. I would name them all out, but I'll forget one of them. I should have brought my list of them, but I don't want to forget any of them. But again, from north, south, east, and west of North Carolina, all of them working either community colleges or nonprofit organization. Again, we covered every nationality we could of the Latino world. And we, what's missing in the messaging for COVID. And so, everything was like, it's just too complicated. I mean, it's too many words, too much, people just want bullets. And so we ran across a colleague at Arizona State University, Dr. Gilbert Lopez, who had begun a series of cómicas, animated cómicas, with the gentleman that did Coco, the movie [Laughter].
DV: Wow.
NM: Did some of the animations of the original ones. And so, he needed additional funding to create some more of these animations. And so, as a team, we agreed that we could use our money for that to happen. So, and we gave them the themes. We gave them five themes. One was the importance of masking, the importance of vaccination of young people, because it was just beginning to give it to little--. The five-to-eleven-year-olds. Mental health as a result of the isolation. The chip myth that they're putting a chip in us because they're going to go out to get us. And, oh gosh, I can't remember what the fourth one was, the fifth one, but we created these wonderful--. We? The animation team that Arizona had contracted created them. We as a team made sure that the words were the words we wanted to have. So, we have these wonderful, rich characters: Tio Rigo, Doctora Susana, Mama Lucha, the Abuelita. It's just, it was, they're just beautiful characters that represent, I mean, they tend to be a little Tex-Mex. But even as a Puerto Rican, I felt like I could relate to anyone, I could relate to the Abuelita, she is me. And so, I thought, okay, this is great. So, we created the animations. And then on a fluke, again, you just ask. Sometimes you're afraid to ask. I asked the animation company. I said these are great, but we don't always have connectivity in our rural parts. I said, well, how much more would it cost us if you printed them into like little cómicas? And he's like, we'll just throw that in. We'll send you the file. That's no big deal. It didn't cost us anything except the printing, which again, we had to pay for printing. And then we ended up one day at El Centro Hispano, like four of us, boxing them so that we could ship them to all the other, the other rest of the team. And then we realized we didn't have money to ship them. And so, I took some and, and Prudencia took some, and Hilda took some, and we all took some, and on our way home or whenever we were in that part of the state, we dropped off boxes to our colleagues so that they would have their cómicas to pass out at festivals, at vaccination events, at anything they were doing COVID-related. Those were a big hit, so much so that La Conexión, the Conexión USA newspaper here in North Carolina, took them and for every week in, I want to say, end of November-December 2021, they published a full page of the Comica with a QR code. Is that what they're called? That if you clicked on it, it would take you to their website and then you could see the animation of the Comica, right. Same thing, but one is visually and sound and the other one you have to know how to read, right? So, it was amazing the volume of hits that we got on those animations. So that was our success story for year one. And then for year two, the funding was different, and we ended up just having an African American Latino group, so it was only three or four Latinos, three or four African Americans. It was a little harder to get to what was still missing of the messaging of COVID at that point. We're in 2022, vaccines have been out. The boosters are out. So, we focused on little kids, right, because the rate of vaccination of little kids is so low. And we all agreed that we would create a multi-ethnic, multi-racial coloring book with a lot of the same kid characters that were in our original series. So, we still have the Doctora Susana, and this time she's talking to the kids that were in the series before, in the other five cómicas. And yeah, yeah, disclaimer that I did use the names of my children [laughter] on the cómicas because I could give parental consent without a problem, right? [Laughter]. So, I used their first names at least so that you have a Bianca and a Saul character. And they just, they did this really great coloring, the verbal part of it, the team came up with, right. And we got it approved by the doctors to make sure we were saying the protocol that was correct for masking and getting your vaccinations and stuff. And then we got a local artist, a Latino artist, to do the illustration. Rafael Osuba, who is a Raleighite, I think he lives in Raleigh, did the animation out of his company. He and another animator did the whole thing. So, it's all, again, created locally by a local group of Latinos and African Americans. The words came out of them, and then the animation came out of the local Latino artists. So that's our latest claim to fame. And then we did, as part of year two, a series of trainings on the importance of mental health, because, again, the team felt that that was the one thing that we could still do a lot with in terms of COVID, is to let people know that this isolation and survival, if you survived infection changed you and changed your family. And you need, and you may need help, and you may need to talk about it. So, we sent--. We had sixty slots for community health workers to do a twelve-hour training, so we did it in three four-hour sessions. En Español, one, and then two in English. And we trained--. Of the sixty slots, again, they had to come to all three sessions, and we paid them, of course, to do this because we don't--. That's their time, and either they're missing work or they could use the money, as we all can, right. So, they were paid to take the training. So, these promotoras de salud took the training and we have, I think, about forty-some that took all three sessions out of the 60. And so, they now have this wonderful toolkit of how to talk to people about approaching their mental health and the resource, like where to go to get a professional, a practitioner. So, hopefully, if we get funded for year three, we're going to take that up a notch and continue working with the community health workers.
DV: That’s wonderful.
NM: Again, challenges, universities are a bureaucracy, just like the state is a bureaucracy. Things don't happen quickly. You don't get paid on the day, on the calendar. It's whenever it gets processed by all of the different departments and somebody signs it and says it's okay. But eventually people do get their money, and eventually we do get a product and we can share it with the community. So, it's the consistency and the hitting--. Knocking on that door, knocking, knocking, knocking, knocking, until somebody opens it and does what they need to do with it. Because these are our dollars, these are federal dollars we pay into the federal pocket, all of us, whether we're documented or not documented, we all pay into the federal coffers. And so, these projects should involve and recompense the people participating appropriately. And we made sure that, as part of the NC CEAL effort, every time we use community members they were being paid for their time. Not a lot, but they were getting paid, which is important. Yeah, so that's kind of like my--. When I'm not meditating, I'm working on NC CEAL stuff.
DV: You keep busy.
NM: I keep busy. And I have grandchildren. I have a one-year-old, an eight-year-old, and a ten-year-old, soon to be eleven. So, they also keep me busy. And I'm blessed. I'm rich. I am the richest woman in Raleigh.
DV: [Laughter]. That's great. Your story is very inspiring. And as you know, we are doing a series on Latino leaders, and this is why I'm talking to you. So, I wanted to ask you what leadership means to you. How would you define that? If you think about your experiences, what do you think leadership means to you?
NM: To me, it's collaboration. It's looking for a door, a window, someone to show you that door or for you to show them that door that needs, that has a need behind it. It means doing the work but also asking for help. I think leadership is you, the you in unity, okay? Not only with what you see around you; helping to lift everyone that crosses your path, not just yourself. And you fail if you're just doing it for you, whatever that may be, but if you're doing it because you see all these other people that need to be lifted, that need to walk through that door with you. That to me is, again, the leadership is you, all of you, in unity with what you see around you. Again, lifting everyone that crosses your path, not just yourself.
DV: You had mentioned to me once, well, before, during our pre-interview, that you were proud of having opened doors for others behind you. Well, that's wonderful.
NM: Yeah, that's my claim to fame. Yeah, I hope I've done that for my children as well as for the folks who are not my children. But again, just reflecting, we need to stand tall. We need to be proud of who you are. And I don't know that I always was in my twenties and thirties, and maybe until I came to North Carolina in my forties. I think that's when I started to realize that there was all this potential, there's all these things out there. Like I realized that I should have had a Master's in Public Health because I love what public health does, right? My mom and dad did a lot by coming to the states. They sacrificed; all of our ancestors paved the way for us. So, I see it as my job, your job, all of our jobs to pave the way for that next generation of Latino leaders. Stay tall, be proud of who you are, the hard work that all of your family has done. I mean you may not see it as doing it for you, but they've given up a lot of their lives for you to have the life that you have. So, take all of that and don't let it go to waste. Pave the way not only for yourself—make yourself better at every step—but also bring other people along with you as you're moving along that timeline.
DV: Thank you so much Norma for sharing your story with us.
NM: Thank you for letting me, it's been such fun sharing and remembering what I can. [Laughter]. Of this long and wonderful life of Norma Martí. Gracias, Daniel, gracias.
DV: No, gracias a ti, Norma.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Transcribers: Sofia Godoy & Daniel Velásquez
Interview Date: 2023 May 31
Date of Transcription: 2023 August 28 / Revisions: 2023 September 22
Es: Transcripción
Daniel Velazquez: Okay, so today is the 31st of May of 2023. I am Daniel Velásquez. I am here with Norma Marti, who is currently the NC CEAL Latinx Community Co-Lead for COVID Response. And we are conducting this interview via Zoom. Norma, thank you so much for sitting down with me and sharing your story.
Norma Martí: Thank you, Daniel, for giving me this opportunity to take out some cobwebs from the mind.
DV: Okay, Norma, could you tell me about your personal background, where you were born, raised, and any early family experiences that you'd like to share?
NM: Yeah, sure. So, I was born in Mayaguez, Puerto Rico, basically about six months after the island got their Estado Libre Asociado designation, which to me is a glorified colony. But my dad had already been in Indiana, northwest Indiana, working in steel mills because there was not a lot of work. He came from a farm family and the farms weren't farming, and the land was being bought up by U.S. military, whatever. And so, he left and went to work in the steel mill. Mom was there with him, my two older sisters, and then got pregnant with me in the early fifties. And so, she just--. Because we're citizens and it's easy for us to cross the border—and again, we're only citizens by an act of Congress—she went back to Aguadilla, which is where my grandfather and her siblings lived. And that's where we stayed. So, when people ask me, I forget, I was born in Mayaguez, I always say I'm from Aguadilla because that's where the family, the abuelos were. And then she didn't come back to the States for three or more years, because Papi finally stood his ground and said: we need to be together, we’re a family. And so she came, never happy to come back to the States. So that's my early memories of why I'm here as opposed to there.
DV: Okay. So, your dad came first, and he went where?
NM: He was in Indiana. He went--. The story for Papi is that my dad was tall. And so, he was hired because the steel mills at the time would put an announcement, and like, day laborers today, all of them would just show up in the parking lot. And I don't know how they would select. But dad was tall. And all the other Latinos and people in the parking lot were short. So, they called on him. And he got a job at Standard Forge Steel Mill for, gosh, 25 years. And then they shut down and then he worked for Inland Steel. But again, it was a good paying job, right.
DV: Okay, and at what age did you finally come over with your mom?
NM: It was about when I was about three, three or four. I started kindergarten here in Indiana. So, again, dad was just a laborer, but he had--. It was good income, steady income, good benefits. His benefits actually paid for my mother's elder care when she needed to be cared for in her old age. So, East Chicago is a suburb, if you would, of Chicago. It's in Indiana but most of our media market was Chicago, so we knew everything about Chicago politics and life and nothing about Indiana and Indiana politics and life. It was a steel mill town. Everybody was blue collar pretty much. All our mothers spoke some language other than English, Polish, Ukrainian, Yugoslavian, Croatian, and the Blacks even had an accent when they spoke, the moms did, because they came up from the south, right. So, the teachers were the only ones that spoke standard English. So yeah, and each group had their own benevolent society and or church. Like the whites went to one Catholic church, the Mexicans went to one Catholic church. And so, it was just an interesting--. When I look back, it was an interesting, segregated, but yet still integrated. I don't know if that makes sense. So, things like my dad and his colleagues started the Brotherhood Social Club. It was a Puerto Rican thing. Friday night bingo, Saturday night bailes with orquesta from Chicago, the big names from Chicago. And Sundays, anything; potlucks, whatever, just to be together, these fifty to a hundred families, all from somewhere in Puerto Rico. We actually organized the first Puerto Rican Estado Libre Asociado Day on July 25th. My kids were little at the time, so it was in the mid ’80s, 1980s. Because we had to keep up with La Unión Benéfica Mexicana, which had the biggest parade in town for their Independence Day in September. So it was that kind of ethnic--. It was a friendly rivalry. We went to the parade. We had our own float in the Mexican parade. They had one in ours. So it was just never feeling foreign at all because of that environment until I went off to college. And that's a story unto itself. Again, my parents were happy having us graduate from high school. That for them--. They had a third-grade education, so, for them to--. For us to finish high school was success. But I had a high school counselor who really mentored me. I was really blessed. Marty Quinn, may he rest in peace. And so, he had me visiting all the colleges in Illinois and Indiana; we didn't have any money to send me to school. But I went to Dominican College up in Wisconsin, which is where his daughter actually was attending. And he was able to get a scholarship for me.
DV: Wow.
NM: So that was pretty amazing that I was, again, I call these folks angels in my life. They just, they're there, they see a spark or something in me and they guide me to what I should be doing. But Wisconsin was five hours away from East Chicago and I had never been away from my family. And so, I was homesick, very homesick. And so, I transferred then my second—sophomore year—to Purdue in West Lafayette. No scholarship. Papi paid the whole thing. I worked summers in the steel mills to help with the tuition, which at that time was two hundred dollars a semester, but that was a lot of money in the 1970s, alright? And my parents never owned a house. I call my education their investment. So, anyway, on that, I got a BA in secondary education and a minor in Spanish, of course. I remember applying to eighty-seven, and I remember eighty-seven schools to be a teacher.
DV: Did you have any experiences within college that you want to share about before you move on to teaching?
NM: College. We tried to organize a Latino group. Again, those of us that grew up in East Chicago in that area that went to Purdue, tried to get together. We just weren't strong--. There weren't enough of us. But the Blacks got a Black student union, and they gave us a room that we could then go meet in to just plan and organize and celebrate our own things. I was on the Dean's List. I graduated with honors in my BA. Yeah, it was--. Dr. Gonzalez, I guess I've mentioned her to you before. She was married to Dr. Gonzalez, who was Puerto Rican. She was white, but she became, again, one of those angels in my life that I'll tell you a little bit more about her later on as I talk about my professional development. But again, having those, the Gonzalezes there made it possible. I got an F on my first English paper. I had never gotten anything but A’s in high school. How the hell did I get an F on my first college education? I did not at Dominican, but somehow at Purdue I did. And she coached me and instructed me, gave me little hints about what I was doing or not doing correctly. And I ended up, like I said, on the Dean's List graduating with honors by the time I got it.
DV: Did you always have teaching as a plan? That was what you wanted to do?
NM: Yeah, I mean, again, I come from a generation where you were either a teacher or maybe a nurse. There weren't a whole lot of secretaries there weren't a whole lot of ladder-climbing days back then. And I wanted to be a teacher but, I mean a doctor, but when I saw my dad changing my sister's bandages after a surgery I completely freaked out. He had to come and get me and neglected my sister who needed to have her bandages put back on. So, I realized then at a very young age that I probably couldn't stand being a doctor. And I love teaching. I've always enjoyed teaching regardless of the subject. I enjoy sharing and learning with my students. So yeah.
DV: Okay, so tell us about your teaching career.
NM: Okay, so my teaching career, again, I sent out eighty-seven applications all around Illinois, Indiana, and I even went to Wisconsin. I had one interview, one interview, a telephone interview at that, and I was not going to take the job. My dad said: well why, it's the only one you've had, it's here in Indiana. I said, dad, but it's way over there in Fort Wayne and the darn principal called me--. He said: we've never had a foreigner in our school before.
DV: Wow.
NM: And so, and now looking back, there weren't any Blacks in that school either, any Black students or teachers. So, I really was a foreigner in many ways. So, my dad insisted that I needed to take that job and teach that man a lesson. And then this is where the Dr. Gonzalez story--. I was ready to quit after my first semester. I was like, this--. He was just so--. Those little micro-aggressive comments that he would make every single day. I hated them. And he would even say them in front of my students, which I totally resented. And so, I just remember dad, I mean I was telling my dad. And he said: if you don't want to go, come back home, you're fine. And I was talking again, Dr. Gonzalez continued mentoring us as we moved on into our careers. And she said, no, no, let me come. She was an English teacher. So, she said let me come, let me do a lesson in your class. And when I told the racist principal that I was having this person from Purdue University come and teach me class. He was like, Purdue in Lafayette? I go, yes, yes. He says, oh, that's wonderful. Well after that I was like--. He stopped the aggressions and I ended up staying there another year and got a new principal who was wonderful, was what a principal should be. He would sit in my Spanish classes and to do my teacher evaluation one time. And I didn't even know he was in my class. I used to, this is again, old school, we had to go into a lab with headphones and listen to Spanish tape conversations, right. And so, I would play lotería with my students at the end with the vocabulary of the week, right. And this kid says, bing--. You know, lotería, lotería! and I look and go, who's that kid in that? I don't have a kid in that seat. Well, it turned out it was the principal. [Laughter]. He was in there evaluating my performance that day. And he came back at the end of the class, and he says: Ms. Martí, that was, I think I've learned more Spanish in these 45 minutes than I had in all my undergraduate classes in Spanish in college. And I said, well, thank you. That's great. So it was, it was kind of a day-and-night. The first year I wanted to just sink into a hole and, I mean, I was totally depressed because this man was just so negative on anything. I can't even begin to tell you the words he would use but this really demeaning of me, of me as a--. Oh, yeah, she's that woman, she speaks another language, I just--. You hired me to teach Spanish, people, you know? I’m sorry. And so, and then having this gentleman who was an amazing educator and encouraged all of us to be the best teachers we could be. So that was my first year of teaching. I didn't leave teaching because of that. Again, I left because I was still--. By this time I'm twenty, what, four or five? I was still homesick. I was in Fort Wayne, Indiana, a little town called Churubusco, named after the Mexican Hollywood, right, go figure, the Spanish-American War. So, it was like three hours away from--. It's like saying Asheville to Raleigh, it's just too far to go every weekend. And so, I went back home to go to graduate school. I never did finish graduate school, but at least I moved from teaching to social work, if you would, public health at that point. And worked at the Roberto Clemente Neighborhood Center in East Chicago, Indiana, where we offered programs for the Latino community in that particular area, mostly Mexican American, even though the center was named Roberto Clemente, it was just because the Puerto Ricans had more political clout than the Mexicans at that point, although they'd been there longer than we had as a population. Loved it. We had senior citizens, a Black senior citizen group, a Latina senior citizen group. We had teams for the kids. We opened a daycare for the moms to bring their kids. It was just a wonderful, again, not a teaching experience, but a completely different way of growing and learning what social programs could do to enhance the neighborhood. So that was my first foray into what I would call social work-slash-public health in Indiana. And then I came out this way. Well, no--.
DV: How long were you at the center?
NM: At the Roberto Clemente Center? Gosh, it’s been so many years. It was three or four years. Then I went to work in the--. I had a woman from the, it must have been the 19-, pre-1980 census come to talk to our community about the importance of the census. And she offered me a job. Ta-da! I'm perfectly happy right where I'm at. And she's like, oh, you're just what we're looking for, we need. And I think the position was called Community Services Specialist or something like that. And you could work in our Chicago office, but you'd be working Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin, it's our regional office, you're just what I want. And I’m thinking, I'm not looking for a job, but thank you, if I think of anybody, I'll let you know. The woman kept calling me, Mary Grady, gosh, I hadn't thought of her in years.
DV: Wow.
NM: Mary Grady, and she kept calling me, and I finally thought, well, what the hell, let me just try it. I don't know what that means. And I loved my work at the Census Bureau in Chicago’s Regional Office. I was there for a good ten or more years, yeah. Ninety eighty censuses, and I think the beginning of the ninety censuses. So, yeah. Did a lot of traveling in those three states, worked with indigenous populations up in Wisconsin and a lot of African American and Latinos in Chicago City metro area, and then of course the folks in Indiana. My one story on that one, now that I'm thinking about stories, was being in Indianapolis talking to the Chamber of Commerce about the census, of course, right. I was, at that particular point in time, I was the regional director of the northern half of Indiana for the 1980 census, I want to say, 1980. It could have been the ninety. It was one of those two. And they were just talking away about how they couldn't hardly wait for that area to fall apart so they could buy up that land by the lake and just start building up some condos and blah, blah, blah, blah. And once we get rid of all those people, and I’m sitting there listening to this, right. This is where I live. This is northern Indiana. And I just sat there, and I thought, I don't believe that they're just--. They didn't even see me. I was in the room. I was there to speak to them. They still didn't even see me. And they continued with their little racist comments about getting rid of all these people of color and getting them out so they could build their condos on the beach. Well, last time I went to northwest Indiana, it's been a while, there are no condos at the beach, but they surely did get rid of all the minorities. By default, the jobs left. And so, again, we go where the jobs are, which is how I then got to North Carolina. After the census, I was offered a job with RTI International. How did I? The census was--. Wanted me to move to D.C. or something, I can't even remember now, it was Charlotte, D.C., and I thought, there are no Latinos there. I don't want to go there. I don't want to go to D.C. My family is here, kids. So, I decided I would do something else. I went back to teaching at a high school, my old high school. And then I got a part-time job because that's what we all do, Latinos. We work two, three, four jobs. And I was still married, but it was just--. The marriage was falling apart, and I could feel it. I got a fellowship for the University of Chicago to work in public health, and I accepted it, but then I got pregnant, and it just became very difficult to finish that curriculum. And so, I got an offer from a friend to work as a supervisor for interviews that were being done by RTI in Chicago. And I did that. And at the end of that cycle, he asked, wouldn't you like to come work at RTI in North Carolina? And I'm like, North Carolina? Let me look that up in the map. [Laughter]. And that's how I--. That’s how, what kind of work? It was--.
DV: What kind of interviews, before you even came to North Carolina, were they doing?
NM: They were interviewing for positions in their survey center here. RTI at the time had four or five different centers, each one focused on--. One was on education, one was on health, one was on international aid. I can't remember the others, but those are the three that I worked on when I was there. So, the boss came and interviewed me. He was doing interviews in Chicago for recruiting staff here in North Carolina, and they offered me a job. And I thought I was--. Like I said, I went back to teaching. I was worried about the kids and health insurance, right. They were growing. My son was ten years old. I'd gotten divorced at that point. And the little one was three, four. And I thought, gosh, health insurance. And then I looked up the area. And I thought, Raleigh--. I didn't like Charlotte, go figure. But Raleigh had the universities, and I kept thinking: well, when they grow up, they can commute and they’d still get a great education if I’m in Raleigh, right. So, let’s do it. I took the job. The only job that's ever moved me, literally paid for my move. I mean, the van, the big moving truck.
DV: Wow.
NM: People that came and packed my house. I was like, all of them. Like I was on cloud nine. And, and the big salary of what, $33,000 a year back in the day in 1991, July first. They actually paid me as of July first, although I didn't start until July fifteenth. They put us up in a hotel until the apartment became available. I mean, it was really, it was a really great blessing. Again, just a fluke that someone that I had worked with at the census was now working at RTI, and they recommended. And so, again, those connections that you make are so important in your life, and you don't always know who it is that's going to open up that door for you.
DV: Okay, I was going to ask you who it was. It was someone you knew from the census days?
NM: Yeah, somebody that worked with us at the census in Chicago took a job at RTI. Gosh, I can't, Brian, I can't remember his last name. Isn’t that terrible? Brian something. Oh my God, it'll come to me at some point. I didn't write him down. There's a lot of--. You don't get to my age and the place that I am now in my—I call it my fulfillment of my career—again, unless people have opened doors for you, unless people recognize something in you that you don't even recognize in yourself. So, I came to work in the Center for Education Research, did lots of national studies across the country. The post-secondary student aid study was the biggest one. Went everywhere, Dallas, and anywhere there were Latinos, Dallas, L.A., Phoenix, Chicago, Puerto Rico even, to do these, to do the training. And again, back in the day, we’re talking paper-and-pencil interviewing. There were no online surveys like there are today, no websites, that kind of thing. So, I had to train the interviewers. And the two things that happened at RTI was I made them realize that instruments are, if you validate an instrument in English to make the data trustworthy, reliable, then you've got to do the same thing with the Spanish. And you've got to have it translated by a professional, not by a graduate student at UNC. Because when you're feeling blue, it's not te sientes azul. It just isn't. And so, I finally got them to recognize that they needed to have a review team, and that they also needed to have a protocol in place for hiring what were called bilingual interviewers. Again, just because you speak or can read a language doesn't mean you really speak it well, right. And so today I can honestly say that they actually have a group, a professional group at RTI that reviews all their translations and trains all of their interviewers, or people that are on those different surveys. But back in the day, 1981, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 [Laughter], it was Norma. And a lot of wonderful people in those areas. But again, I lived in North Carolina, but I didn't live here because I was always on the road. My mom, mommy was here. My dad had passed away, so mommy was here helping me raise the kids, watching them. Again, church members, the whole village helping me raise these two beautiful adults that I have today. So, yeah, I decided at that point that I needed to--. My son was graduating from high school, going on to college. He went to NC State, sorry--. He did. [Laughter]. Both my kids. So El Pueblo was advertising for a development director. I had to look up what development director was, and I thought, oh, I think I could do that. So, I interviewed with, at that time, Andrea Bassan was Executive Director, and Melanie Chernoff was Assistant. They interviewed me, again, saw something in me that I probably didn't see in myself, and they said: sure, come on, join us. And so, I took a half a salary cut in pay to go work at El Pueblo, which is not something I recommend to anybody. I'm sorry, you know. Now in my old age, I kind of miss that income I would have had at RTI. But notwithstanding, I didn’t gain money, but I gained me. Fiesta del Pueblo was the only fiesta with Lat--. At that time in the whole state. And so, we got the music, the comida. My daughter and I wouldn't miss a fiesta del pueblo before I got hired by them. And so, when I got hired, I made a commitment to take a certification course at Duke so that I could learn what a development director was supposed to do. And so, I'm happy to say that I kept the budget intact those two years that I was there, came pretty close to a million, if not more, of donations. And again, I just couldn't make my life work on the salary that a nonprofit paid at that time in my life. And so, my son was in college. I didn't realize that I was helping him pay for that. And so, it was hard. And so, I--. Again, a friend said, hey, look, there's this job at the state and it's got your name on it. It's you. And I'm like, okay, I'm not really looking for a job. I quit at El Pueblo—no, I was really looking for a job. I quit El Pueblo after the last fiesta of that year, 2005, 6, and I just need to chill.
DV: Actually, tell us more about El Pueblo. What kind of work was, does El Pueblo, or did El Pueblo do at the time?
NM: At the time, El Pueblo, like I said, we were like the only Latino advocate group out there, or at least visibly. So we did a lot of advocacies in terms of--. I remember, again, talking with state legislators, department chairmen on license, trying to get the license to be valid proof of residency regardless of your status. We did the Fiesta del Pueblo, which was the biggest thing, and we did a youth photo that I really miss. I don't see that anymore anywhere, but we used to do a youth photo and did it in Greensboro one year, we did it in Raleigh, I want to say Charlotte. But again, bringing young people in to have speakers and have them interact with each other and to grow. We had a lot of grants that we put together to work on things like literacy. We had a Smart Start grant that hired, who is now my best friend, Margarita Cassini, to go to the community, to trailers, to apartment complexes to talk about literacy and the importance of reading to children. We had a Susan G. Komen grant. My dear, dear, dear Colombian friend, Maria Eugenia Cerron, who passed away from cancer a couple years ago was our leader in that effort. So, again, we had a really, it was just a familia. I didn't have my familia here, and I hadn't had it while I was at RTI because I was all over the darn place. But here, that, I mean, I'm still, Melanie is still--. Melanie baked me a cake for my seventieth birthday. So, I mean, these are still people that I call family. And yeah, so that was what El Pueblo did for me. That was my richness. That was my, that's what I banked my retirement on. All those connections that I made those two or three years. And then I built on that when I got hired at the state. Again, my friend Carolyn Sexton hired me to work at Department—then the Division of Public Health, which is part of NC DHHS, working as a minority outreach specialist, a title that was just made up. There was no coordinator, there was no staff, it was just me. And we were trying to promote the state's children's health insurance program. At the time it had just been legislated by the Clinton Administration, and so we needed to get the word out to get--. I think the first year they only had like forty thousand slots, and they completely filled up.
DV: What year was this now?
NM: Early, mid-2000s; 5, 6, 7. And that range is when I started at the state. And again, with legislation and lobbying, both from organizations like NC Child, El Pueblo, and since we found lots of different groups started cropping up then across the state. AMEXCAN, I mean, just a whole bunch of Latino-led folks whose voices were now being listened to en masse at the state, at the general assembly. Those numbers grew and to the point where I think we had almost a hundred thousand children enrolled in our health check, it’s what we called it back then. I don't know what they're calling it now. But we were like 95% enrolled eligible children in the state when I left in 2019. So, I think, again, nothing I did--. But I had built this wonderful familia with El Pueblo and people that came to our Fiesta and then again, all these organizations that started developing, that across the state with, again, leadership from rural as well as urban areas in the state. Latin American Coalition in Charlotte. I mean, just True Bridge on the west end. I mean, all these wonderful organizations that supported the work that we were trying to do of getting families enrolled in Medicaid and CHIP. And then what I thought is my most successful point in that career, in my life, is when I went to an event at the Hmong, that the Hmong community had in Morganton--. In Hickory. And when I walked in I felt like I had walked into the Brotherhood Social Club, except that they spoke Hmong and not Spanish. And so, it was just like stepping back in time, realizing that they were doing just what my family, my parents, and that whole cohort had done for us, trying to make the community recognize that they're there, that they deserve services, that they are good people. They're just great. The men were all in their little suits and we're all talking, and they brought up the mayor and they brought up the county commissioner. And I said, gosh, I'm like I'm at the Brotherhood Social Club, but they're speaking Hmong. It's so amazing. And the women were over in the table making all of their wonderful dishes. And I just, I felt I had finally been successful because not only was I getting to my people, as I call them, mi gente, regardless of their nationality, but I was also reaching these other communities that also needed to be included. So when the refugee community honored me by saying that I was one of their--. One of them, I felt successful. Not just because I felt I owed it to my community to do what I was doing, but to include them and to make them feel welcomed and entitled, was really wonderful. So, yeah.
DV: That’s wonderful.
NM: Yeah. I retired.
DV: How long did you work for the state before you retired?
NM: Twelve years only. I just--. It was time. Age was the factor. I could collect Social Security, which was--. And I figured, I wasn't making a whole lot of money, but I wasn't making--. I mean, comparable to what I was making as a state employee. And so, I thought I could live on this. And again, I've never been very good at financial, very good at financial strategies for my life, but I'm happy. It doesn't matter. I'm happy. And so, I stopped in 2019. I took my grandson to D.C., my granddaughter to Wilmington. I went to Sedona, and then I went to Cuba to do one of my last mission trips that I've done, I've done Nicaragua, Guatemala, and I got to do Cuba just before COVID.
DV: Mission trips, what do you mean?
NM: Well, most of them were church related. Or in the case of Cuba, it's a Witness for Peace/solidarity, which was created by my dear friend, Gail Phares, back in the mid-80s when the Iran-Contra reality was happening in Latin America. And again, we’re so tied to the migration to the U.S., and the push and pull at the border, we don't see that all of that has to do with our policies in D.C. I mean, I'm a, like I said, I'm a citizen by an act of Congress, not because I or my people voted to be citizens, right. So, the mission trips are usually church groups or non-profits that will take a group of folks in the U.S. to a country to get to see how people live. And to understand the policies of America, the U.S., and how those policies affect the people living in these neighboring countries, our neighbors, our brothers and sisters. And so, Nicaragua, I went, I can't remember what year all of this. Guatemala was my first one, I went twice. And my son actually went on a mission trip his senior year in high school, and it makes you see--. Mission trips for me made me realize that we are really just all one. We’re all one, whatever your belief system is, if you believe in a God or don't believe, we're all--. When I went to Guatemala, I felt like I had gone back to Puerto Rico and my grandmother's stories of how my grandmother lived in this little hut with a dirt floor, and they would throw water on it to pat it down. That's what I was living in when I went to Guatemala fifty years later. And I'm like, we're all the same. We've had different histories maybe, different ways of getting to where we are. But--. pero somos uno. Somos uno en Dios, en el universo. We have that. There's a little DNA that just trickles through every person on the planet. We may look different. Our accents may be different. Our histories may be different. But basically, what we want is the same thing. It's happiness. What's that, what's the constitutional thing, the pursuit of happiness? Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Well, they got that right. I mean that really is what every human being wants: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And so mission trips let me see that. And Cuba was, again—my last name is Martí—so it was just awesome to drive into--. Fly into Martí International Airport. [Laughter]. I claim him as an uncle, but he was on that island and my family was from the other island. At some point the Martís from Europe were the same, and then they came through the Caribbean and settled in different islands. I always say he looks like my dad, when my dad was young, José Martí does. But anyway--. And just the struggle of the people of Cuba, and the struggle they're still living today, simply because we can't get over something that happened sixty years ago. It's just like, I don't know. I mean, people are starving and dying because of an ideology. That just doesn't seem right to me. It doesn't seem moral to me. I mean, we do it here, too, right? We have families who are hungry and starving that shouldn't have to be. But when you see it on an island, at the level--. And the spirit of the Cuban people is just amazing. And of all of the people, the Guatemalans, the Nicaraguans. Yeah, so I love that experience that my faith has brought into my, in my world. It complements the work that I do here, because, again, I've established good working relationships with the Guatemalan community, Nicaraguan, and Cuban. Sometimes we butt heads, but they're still my brothers and sisters. And so, it helps me do the work here as well.
This just reminds me that a couple of--. Last year, the NC Justice Center awarded me the Lifetime Defender of Justice Award. And when they called me, I thought, did you get the right number? I haven't done anything to defend justice. And so, it was like: yeah, Norma, you’ve been nominated and the board agreed that you should get this. And I'm like, I don't understand. And so, when I was telling all my friends, I said I don't understand why I got this award. And they're like, what do you mean you don't understand? And so, they started telling me, look, you've done this and this and this. And I'm like, yeah, but those were, I mean, they were my jobs, they were my faith. That was what I was supposed to be doing. I wasn't doing anything that I wasn't supposed to be doing. That we're not all supposed to be doing, right? And then they reminded me that not everybody does do everything that I do. And I said: oh, okay. Well then, okay, let's go! And so, I got three tables worth of friends to pay an outrageous amount of money to get a chicken dinner [Laughter], but to support the Justice Center and to receive the award with me, because it wasn't for me, it was for us as a community and as people that have struggled. So, I had some of my community health workers there. I had folks from DPH , and from different churches, and from Duke, and from UNC. I mean, again, everybody that's been a part of my world was invited to come and three tables worth of people showed up. So, I was pretty excited. That meant more to me than the award. [Laughter]. That did, yeah.
DV: Did you do the mission work for a long time, or is that something that you were doing after retirement?
NM: No, no, that's a thing I did while I was working.
DV: Okay.
NM: Yeah. 19--. 1999, 2000, 2001, I went to Guatemala.
DV: Oh, wow.
NM: 2017, I think, I went to Nicaragua. Oh, and then we went to Puerto Rico after the hurricane, as part of--. My own people needed help. And so, we went to Puerto Rico to help rebuild some homes of folks on the island. And then Cuba in 2019. It was the first one after retirement. The other ones were all done while I was working. Again, my job doesn't stop with the paycheck. It extends into the rest of the day and the world. I don't know, that's just how I've seen my life. It's all of it. It's what you do on Saturdays and Sundays. And, yeah, it's all of it.
DV: And I know that you didn't stay fully retired for long. [Laughter].
NM: Some would say I haven't retired. Yeah. Well, COVID came, and with COVID came a call from NC DHHS, one of my colleagues that I'd worked with had just been made Deputy Director, Ben Money. And Ben called me and said: we need you to help us. And I go, well, what's going on? I mean, I knew that--. I knew what was going on. I was, but what is it? He says: Norma, we have 75% of patients at Duke today that are Latino. And there's--. We're only 9% of the population. And I go, my God, what are you guys doing? How are you telling people? And he says, well, that's why I'm calling you. I want you to come on board and help us. And so I thought it was a volunteer thing because, again, I don't think of money as I should, but I don't. He says no, we want you to come back, we know you're retired so maybe part-time. I go, oh, okay, you're going to pay me. Yeah, sure, I'll do it. And so, but they paid me. But what I did was, that money, I gave it to people who were not working and who were, who needed groceries and whatever. Because I figured it wasn't supposed to be for me, it was supposed to be to help the community. So, I did. I mean, I helped me, too. I went to the beach, probably more than I've ever gone to the beach in North Carolina, for my sanity. But it was really great working with Dr. Cohen and her team of deputy directors. They stepped up. We would tell Dr. Cohen that the community had a concern in whatever, Durham, Hickory, whatever, at 8 o'clock at night, and that woman would be on a Zoom call with us to answer every single question, and she followed up with every single complaint that was given by the community. The first week that I came on board, she told us at the end of this week, I want you to give away a half a million dollars so that we can get organizations to start giving the message out. So, we did. We gave five organizations $100,000. And I told them, help us get the word out, help us create the right messages, help us to do this work, and I am so proud of that work that they did. I didn't do--. I didn't create any of that. They did it all, and we curved it. I mean, we got it. We got the place where the Latino population, by the time I left, a year later—was only supposed to be for six months, it turned out to be a year—the numbers were at least, by the time we had a vaccination available, the numbers of Latinos who had vaccinated was higher than any of the other groups in the state. And so, for that, I am eternally grateful, eternally grateful. And again, as with everything, you don't do a job and walk away. You let the institution know where their holes are. And there was holes that you had to call somebody in from retirement to help you reach out to a community? Why don't you have a position in the department, hello, that already has the pulse of the community and can tell you what needs to be told and can reach out immediately. I mean, like we did within a week. But again, I wasn't part of the department at that point. I was brought in. And so, yeah, so they listened and we, they're listening. And we have some really great people at NCDHHS today. You need more, but we have some really good folks there.
DV: Thanks for sharing all of that, Norma. Considering all of these experiences, what would you say were some of the challenges and barriers that you faced in your journey? How have you addressed them?
NM: I think the challenge is understanding what you're walking into. And again, if you don't have the skill set because of your education, then go find that skill set. Take a course. Get a certificate. Always, always, always speak up when something is a deficit. Don't take it on as another task to do on top of what you were hired to do. And I think that's the hardest thing to do. It’s like, can you take a look at this translation? You know, there are professionals that do that. I'll take a look at this today, but I think you need to--. I can give you some names and numbers and contacts for you to get a professional person to be looking at this translation. And so, it's those challenges, it's doing what you're charged to do and not more. Again, I never got paid more for being bilingual. I know I never was at the top of the payroll scale. And yet there were many times I was doing two jobs, one in English and one in Spanish. So yeah, that I think is the biggest thing. Prepare yourself, educate yourself, and don't let people use you. Stand up for what you know is your space and not just feel like: I've got to hold on to this job, so I've got to do what they're telling me. I've been blessed that every job I've had I've loved. But that doesn't mean each one of them didn't offer challenges. Like I said, the racism will slap you in the face. You take the slap, but then you just move forward and find a way to educate that person that slapped you so that they don't do it again, or at least not to your face. So, I don't know. Does that make sense?
DV: Yeah, yeah, it does. Thank you. Turning that around, instead of thinking of challenges; you've spoken of angels that helped you along the way. Besides the angels, what are some of the main factors that you can pinpoint that you think have helped you? It could be something abstract, like a way of thinking, or tangible, specific people like you mentioned.
NM: Yeah, I've mentioned all the, I think I've mentioned all the people, if not, forgive me. Those of you who know me who helped me, if I didn't mention you. It's been a long trajectory. So, I think it's we are not--. Again, I'm talking my generation of Latina women. We were not taught that we could do anything other than maybe be a mother, maybe be a wife. I mean, those were the expected roles. And I love my children. I love being an abuelita. I mean, that's like my favorite job today. But that is not all who we are. We are, we have a passion inside of us. And whatever that passion is, find a way to express it. Don't let anybody block you from--. I mean we have limitations. Obviously, I would have loved to finish my master's and always wanted a doctorate, so never did all that, but I never let that stop me from seeking opportunities that were presented to me and saying: well I don't know, maybe I could do that. I could do that. And I did do that. And I did do that not by myself, but again, by educating myself and seeking partners that had the resources or the skill sets that maybe I didn't have. Finding partners is probably the most important thing in terms of barriers because you're not going to knock it down by yourself. Hundreds of people have tried that for centuries. And I look at the African-American experience in North Carolina, and as--. What, three hundred, four hundred, five, four hundred years if my math is right, four hundred-plus years of constant, constant, constant, constant, constant, constant, constant drilling down on a people. To me, it's--. They're my heroes. The fact that they survived all of that negativity and God-awfulness that was imposed on them. And it's the same thing with our people. We've had some pretty nasty shit thrown at us in the decades of the United States of America. But we have to--. We're here and we're not going anywhere. This is our country. This is our home. This is where my grandchildren will make a difference in the world. From here, they will make a difference in the world. And so, be proud of that heritage, but don't let anybody diminish it. And teach them, as much as learn from them, teach them. Yeah, yeah, that's pretty abstract.
DV: Thank you.
NM: But I can't put it into like go do A, B, C. Whatever that teaching opportunity is for you, whether it's a certificate, whether it's a couple of classes. I mean, my latest thing is meditation. My goal in life now for the next however many years I'm allowed to breathe on this planet is to ask my Latina women, my daughters and my nieces and my nephews, and boys too, the nephews and the sons, to take a deep breath. And to find that inner peace that is there and whatever you want to call it; God, energy, spirit, whatever you want to call it, there is this force within all of us that's just really divine. And if you let it come out, people may see it. You may not see it, but other people will see it. And so, give yourself that time to just pause, reflect, and then go do something. It's not just say it, do it.
DV: So this is what you've been up to lately, meditation?
NM: Yeah. Well, my NC CEAL work is winding down. I had a wonderful review with Wake Forest University that's doing, for the first time ever, a Spanish language intervention called Pain Trainer for people with major pain or terminal pain that medication doesn't always resolve, it’s an eight-module intervention on finding that place of tranquility and calmness within you and not focusing on the pain. It's a wonderful medical intervention, right. You're talking about meditation as a tool in the world of health. And so, they've translated into Spanish. It's been wonderful being on that team at Wake Forest. Again, they had it professionally translated, but then they brought together this group of folks, me and ten other people across the state from different nationalities to look at it, to make sure that language spoke to all of our nationalities and that the people on the computer screen look like us. So, yeah, that's been a wonder. It's finished, but it's a wonderful project. Stay tuned and look for it. Again, it'll be online. It'll be free. I've done some work with Duke along the same lines in terms of meditation and training. I'm finishing a certificate with the Chopra Center on Meditation. Deepak Chopra is probably one of the most renowned U.S. medical doctors has addressed the value of meditation as a health equalizer. Again, it brings down all the bad things and brings up all the good things. So, blood pressure, heart, chronic disease, all those measures will lessen if you spend some time meditating. And so, my goal is, in the next four or five years, is to have that Casa de la Abuelita, where I can teach meditation to my girls. To all the women and men, Latinos. I am going to be a little segregationist about it. I really want to focus on the Latino population and teaching us to breathe, to see that inner beauty that's in all of us and that strength that we have inherited from our ancestors. Yeah, that's what I hope I can do in the next decade or so.
DV: That's awesome. Norma, I think we skipped your work with NC CEAL. Can you tell us a bit about how that's been going on?
NM: Sure, that's been the last two years, and it's been wonderful work. Year one, we were still kind of the tail-end, middle-end. Vaccination was going.
56:30 DV: First--. So you were working for the state and then you left that. They were hiring other folks to take over. So, was it immediately after that you started working for NC CEAL?
NM: Actually, I took the NC CEAL job thinking that I would be done with the state job in December. So I started in January of 2021.
DV: Oh, okay.
NM: But then they didn't hire the persons, the people, and so the state asked me to stay for a few more months, and so I was kind of double, double. But this isn't a job, it's not like nine to five, it's really just a, it's an honorarium that we get from UNC School of Medicine, Center for Community Partnerships and Health, I think is what CCPH stands for. So, I was able to do that. And those first few months was really just recruiting a team to work with us to help create materials that were still needed in our Latino community. And so, again, because of the work that I've done in the state, my dear friend Dr. Krista Perreira called me and says: come and join us on NC CEAL. I'd like you to be--. She's the academic co-lead, the community co-lead for the Latino, Latinx Community Response team. And so, what we did in year one was we brought together ten young--. And I told her, Krista, we need young people. She says, what? I said anybody under forty? Because, again, we want to build up the leadership of the Latino community. It's okay to get the executive directors of all of these organizations, but they're busy. Let's get some of the people that work with them, but that need to maybe get some leadership and connect with each other as leaders, young leaders in the state. And so, we got ten folks together. They're a wonderful team. I would name them all out, but I'll forget one of them. I should have brought my list of them, but I don't want to forget any of them. But again, from north, south, east, and west of North Carolina, all of them working either community colleges or nonprofit organization. Again, we covered every nationality we could of the Latino world. And we, what's missing in the messaging for COVID. And so, everything was like, it's just too complicated. I mean, it's too many words, too much, people just want bullets. And so we ran across a colleague at Arizona State University, Dr. Gilbert Lopez, who had begun a series of cómicas, animated cómicas, with the gentleman that did Coco, the movie [Laughter].
DV: Wow.
NM: Did some of the animations of the original ones. And so, he needed additional funding to create some more of these animations. And so, as a team, we agreed that we could use our money for that to happen. So, and we gave them the themes. We gave them five themes. One was the importance of masking, the importance of vaccination of young people, because it was just beginning to give it to little--. The five-to-eleven-year-olds. Mental health as a result of the isolation. The chip myth that they're putting a chip in us because they're going to go out to get us. And, oh gosh, I can't remember what the fourth one was, the fifth one, but we created these wonderful--. We? The animation team that Arizona had contracted created them. We as a team made sure that the words were the words we wanted to have. So, we have these wonderful, rich characters: Tio Rigo, Doctora Susana, Mama Lucha, the Abuelita. It's just, it was, they're just beautiful characters that represent, I mean, they tend to be a little Tex-Mex. But even as a Puerto Rican, I felt like I could relate to anyone, I could relate to the Abuelita, she is me. And so, I thought, okay, this is great. So, we created the animations. And then on a fluke, again, you just ask. Sometimes you're afraid to ask. I asked the animation company. I said these are great, but we don't always have connectivity in our rural parts. I said, well, how much more would it cost us if you printed them into like little cómicas? And he's like, we'll just throw that in. We'll send you the file. That's no big deal. It didn't cost us anything except the printing, which again, we had to pay for printing. And then we ended up one day at El Centro Hispano, like four of us, boxing them so that we could ship them to all the other, the other rest of the team. And then we realized we didn't have money to ship them. And so, I took some and, and Prudencia took some, and Hilda took some, and we all took some, and on our way home or whenever we were in that part of the state, we dropped off boxes to our colleagues so that they would have their cómicas to pass out at festivals, at vaccination events, at anything they were doing COVID-related. Those were a big hit, so much so that La Conexión, the Conexión USA newspaper here in North Carolina, took them and for every week in, I want to say, end of November-December 2021, they published a full page of the Comica with a QR code. Is that what they're called? That if you clicked on it, it would take you to their website and then you could see the animation of the Comica, right. Same thing, but one is visually and sound and the other one you have to know how to read, right? So, it was amazing the volume of hits that we got on those animations. So that was our success story for year one. And then for year two, the funding was different, and we ended up just having an African American Latino group, so it was only three or four Latinos, three or four African Americans. It was a little harder to get to what was still missing of the messaging of COVID at that point. We're in 2022, vaccines have been out. The boosters are out. So, we focused on little kids, right, because the rate of vaccination of little kids is so low. And we all agreed that we would create a multi-ethnic, multi-racial coloring book with a lot of the same kid characters that were in our original series. So, we still have the Doctora Susana, and this time she's talking to the kids that were in the series before, in the other five cómicas. And yeah, yeah, disclaimer that I did use the names of my children [laughter] on the cómicas because I could give parental consent without a problem, right? [Laughter]. So, I used their first names at least so that you have a Bianca and a Saul character. And they just, they did this really great coloring, the verbal part of it, the team came up with, right. And we got it approved by the doctors to make sure we were saying the protocol that was correct for masking and getting your vaccinations and stuff. And then we got a local artist, a Latino artist, to do the illustration. Rafael Osuba, who is a Raleighite, I think he lives in Raleigh, did the animation out of his company. He and another animator did the whole thing. So, it's all, again, created locally by a local group of Latinos and African Americans. The words came out of them, and then the animation came out of the local Latino artists. So that's our latest claim to fame. And then we did, as part of year two, a series of trainings on the importance of mental health, because, again, the team felt that that was the one thing that we could still do a lot with in terms of COVID, is to let people know that this isolation and survival, if you survived infection changed you and changed your family. And you need, and you may need help, and you may need to talk about it. So, we sent--. We had sixty slots for community health workers to do a twelve-hour training, so we did it in three four-hour sessions. En Español, one, and then two in English. And we trained--. Of the sixty slots, again, they had to come to all three sessions, and we paid them, of course, to do this because we don't--. That's their time, and either they're missing work or they could use the money, as we all can, right. So, they were paid to take the training. So, these promotoras de salud took the training and we have, I think, about forty-some that took all three sessions out of the 60. And so, they now have this wonderful toolkit of how to talk to people about approaching their mental health and the resource, like where to go to get a professional, a practitioner. So, hopefully, if we get funded for year three, we're going to take that up a notch and continue working with the community health workers.
DV: That’s wonderful.
NM: Again, challenges, universities are a bureaucracy, just like the state is a bureaucracy. Things don't happen quickly. You don't get paid on the day, on the calendar. It's whenever it gets processed by all of the different departments and somebody signs it and says it's okay. But eventually people do get their money, and eventually we do get a product and we can share it with the community. So, it's the consistency and the hitting--. Knocking on that door, knocking, knocking, knocking, knocking, until somebody opens it and does what they need to do with it. Because these are our dollars, these are federal dollars we pay into the federal pocket, all of us, whether we're documented or not documented, we all pay into the federal coffers. And so, these projects should involve and recompense the people participating appropriately. And we made sure that, as part of the NC CEAL effort, every time we use community members they were being paid for their time. Not a lot, but they were getting paid, which is important. Yeah, so that's kind of like my--. When I'm not meditating, I'm working on NC CEAL stuff.
DV: You keep busy.
NM: I keep busy. And I have grandchildren. I have a one-year-old, an eight-year-old, and a ten-year-old, soon to be eleven. So, they also keep me busy. And I'm blessed. I'm rich. I am the richest woman in Raleigh.
DV: [Laughter]. That's great. Your story is very inspiring. And as you know, we are doing a series on Latino leaders, and this is why I'm talking to you. So, I wanted to ask you what leadership means to you. How would you define that? If you think about your experiences, what do you think leadership means to you?
NM: To me, it's collaboration. It's looking for a door, a window, someone to show you that door or for you to show them that door that needs, that has a need behind it. It means doing the work but also asking for help. I think leadership is you, the you in unity, okay? Not only with what you see around you; helping to lift everyone that crosses your path, not just yourself. And you fail if you're just doing it for you, whatever that may be, but if you're doing it because you see all these other people that need to be lifted, that need to walk through that door with you. That to me is, again, the leadership is you, all of you, in unity with what you see around you. Again, lifting everyone that crosses your path, not just yourself.
DV: You had mentioned to me once, well, before, during our pre-interview, that you were proud of having opened doors for others behind you. Well, that's wonderful.
NM: Yeah, that's my claim to fame. Yeah, I hope I've done that for my children as well as for the folks who are not my children. But again, just reflecting, we need to stand tall. We need to be proud of who you are. And I don't know that I always was in my twenties and thirties, and maybe until I came to North Carolina in my forties. I think that's when I started to realize that there was all this potential, there's all these things out there. Like I realized that I should have had a Master's in Public Health because I love what public health does, right? My mom and dad did a lot by coming to the states. They sacrificed; all of our ancestors paved the way for us. So, I see it as my job, your job, all of our jobs to pave the way for that next generation of Latino leaders. Stay tall, be proud of who you are, the hard work that all of your family has done. I mean you may not see it as doing it for you, but they've given up a lot of their lives for you to have the life that you have. So, take all of that and don't let it go to waste. Pave the way not only for yourself—make yourself better at every step—but also bring other people along with you as you're moving along that timeline.
DV: Thank you so much Norma for sharing your story with us.
NM: Thank you for letting me, it's been such fun sharing and remembering what I can. [Laughter]. Of this long and wonderful life of Norma Martí. Gracias, Daniel, gracias.
DV: No, gracias a ti, Norma.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Transcribers: Sofia Godoy & Daniel Velásquez
Interview Date: 2023 May 31
Date of Transcription: 2023 August 28 / Revisions: 2023 September 22
Dublin Core
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Title
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R-1010 -- Martí, Norma.
Description
An account of the resource
At a young age, Norma Martí migrated with her family from Puerto Rico to a diverse, working-class neighborhood in northwestern Indiana, part of metropolitan Chicago. She shares her formative experiences there, what enabled her to attain a college education, and her encounters with discrimination in her first role as an educator. She subsequently worked for the Census Bureau in Illinois and the Research Triangle Institute (RTI) in North Carolina, enhancing both organizations’ reach of Latino communities. In the late 1990s, Norma decided to focus on advocacy and outreach as Development Director for El Pueblo, a nonprofit organization based in Raleigh. By the mid-2000s, in a new role as Minority Outreach Specialist for the North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services (NC DHHS), Norma leveraged the connections she had built with various Latino organizations to expand Medicaid and children’s health insurance in Latino communities across the state. In 2020, Norma was called back from retirement to NC DHHS to help coordinate the agency’s COVID-19 response in the Latinx population. She has continued that work through her current role as Latinx Community Co-Lead for COVID Response for North Carolina’s Community Engagement Alliance (NC CEAL). She concludes by calling for unity and perseverance in Latino communities, and sharing words of wisdom for future leaders, which will include her grandchildren.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research
Date
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2023-05-31
Publisher
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29346">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
Format
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R1010_Audio.mp3
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/42321b7f6df889aac3075e8f9bb8d834.MP3
cd818e13072db3b9a085a0ed1c9c2355
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/2f6cb6c452fc4fd745f4634f3dd320dd.pdf
6d104140604937713a0acb321d1f1754
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0986
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
2018-12-07
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Gordon, Peter.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Professors
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1957
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Male
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Washington, D.C.
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Chapel Hill -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
NA
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Gill, Hannah.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
This oral history interview is the second in a three-part series with Peter Gordon in Chapel Hill, North Carolina on December 7, 2018. Peter Gordon narrates the WWII migration story of his father, Samuel Chrabolowski Gordon (“Sam Gordon”), who was born to a Jewish family in Poland. Sam Gordon escaped Nazi persecution by migrating to Mexico, where he served as the doctor of a refugee camp in León, Guanajuato for three years before eventually settling in the United States. In the first interview, Peter Gordon begins his father’s story in the 1930s when Sam Gordon served in the International Brigades in the Spanish Civil War and attended medical school in Montpellier, France. In 1942, as Nazi occupation threatened the lives of Jews living in France, Sam Gordon, his wife Beata Babad, and son Andre Chrabolowski escaped from Marseille by boat after securing an entrance visa to Mexico. This second interview covers Sam Gordon’s experiences in Mexico from 1943 through the summer of 1946, where he became the head doctor at a camp (Colonia Santa Rosa) for Polish refugees in León, Guanajuato, and where Beata Babad started a writing career in the Communist party. In the third interview, Peter Gordon narrates his father’s emigration and permanent settlement in the United States in Washington, D.C. Peter Gordon is Professor in the Cognitive Psychology Program within the Department of Psychology and Neuroscience at UNC Chapel Hill. The interview was conducted in Davie Hall on the UNC campus by Hannah Gill, Associate Director of the Institute for the Study of the Americas and Principal Investigator of the New Roots/Nuevas Raíces Oral Histories.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Peter Gordon, 07 December 2018, R-0986, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/28612
En: Themes
Es: Temas
War and violence; Migratory Experience; Racism and discrimination; Religion; Health
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Hannah Gill: Okay, I am here with Peter Gordon. My name is Hannah Gill. This is December 7, 2018 and we’re going to be continuing our interview about the migration story of Peter's father, Samuel Chrabolowski. Peter, let’s continue.
Peter Gordon: Thank you, Hannah. We left off last time with my father’s arrival with his first wife and their son in Veracruz. That was in April of 1942. There's a lot to try to understand about that and I don't understand all of it. I am learning more about it. One thing that I've learned that is very relevant is that my father was a Polish citizen. His Polish passport was issued in 1931 and was good for 10 years. It had expired in 1941 and he had no current passport. But of course Poland at that point had ceased to exist. The Nazis had invaded western Poland and had essentially annexed part of it and managed part of it. The Soviets invaded Eastern Poland and occupied it. Poland had not existed for 100 or so years in the 19th and early 20th century. It had only been recreated after WWI. So not having a valid passport was obviously problematic if you wanted to cross borders. Another fact that may or may not be relevant is that at the end of the Spanish Civil War, there were many people in the International Brigades, who were leaving Spain or trying to leave Spain. Many of them faced real problems of where they could go. The Prime Minister of the Spanish Republic at that point, Juan Negrin, promised all of the members of the International Brigades’ Spanish nationality. Now that was not something that he could deliver on because he was out of power and fled the country in a few months after that. But he made that promise and the Spanish government actually made good on it in the 1990’s by giving ex-combatants in the International Brigades an opportunity for a few years to claim Spanish citizenship. That point is relevant because Mexico was a strong supporter of the Spanish Republic. It's very clear that Mexico's policies, both official and actual, were to provide refuge to Spanish Republicans because they faced very severe, terrible reprisals in Spain. Many officials of the Republican Government were simply executed. Others were put into labor camps for many years. It was a very repressive situation politically.
Mexico, to my understanding, has always felt a strong connection both to Spain and to the Americas. It sees itself as a fusion of those two peoples and was happy to have people from Spain come to Mexico. It was not necessarily eager or willing to take other kinds of people. In reading about it it’s clear that people in Mexico had different opinions; many wanted to help refugees, but others didn't. There was actually a discussion about whether International-Brigade members who had not been born in Spain should be considered as acceptable refugees in Mexico. This went back and forth. In fact, there was a case of a doctor in the International Brigades, Liza Hollander, who had a child while she was in Spain. The Mexican consulate officials in France said that her child was Spanish. Since she and her husband were necessary companions to their child, they could all enter Mexico. That's documented. Now, my father did not have a child in Spain, but his immigration document to Mexico had the following information that was surprising to me. It has two places for information to be entered asking where you were from. It had a place where it said Pais de Nacimiento (country of birth), and this place was filled in “Polonia”. Then it asked for Nacionalidad Actual (actual nationality) and that place was filled in, “Española”. So, this document – this very official-looking document - says that my father had Spanish nationality and he was admitted for political asylum. That was the status that Mexico honored, they accepted political refugees providing them with asylum. At that point they hadn't developed policies for humanitarian refugees, for accepting refugees on humanitarian grounds. There are many documents within the large pile of official Mexican documents that I have that describe my father as being of Spanish nationality. Now, there is also-- and I just pulled this one out-- a form that he filled out partially, which was probably a draft that he didn't submit. He had to repeatedly renew his credentials for being in Mexico. In this form there is a statement “Soy victima en mi pais ______ de persecuciones politicas” and the blank is filled in España. This was at some level a fiction, but it was accepted by the Mexican officials and even suggested by the Mexican officials that my father comply with it.
Hannah Gill: Do you think that he would have filled this in? Or does that serve as his hand writing?
Peter Gordon: I think it is. I would have to check more carefully if someone else had filled it in. It's not complete and I can't find the first two pages. I think he may have started to fill this one and kept it blank.
The date on that as I believe in ‘45 or ‘46 would have been well after the initial migration. It's also the case that there is a letter to my father from the Polish Legation in Mexico, verifying that he is a Polish citizen and so are a number of other people who were on the boat that they arrived in. I presume that he got this in part to satisfy Mexican officials of something, I don't know that for sure.
Hannah Gill: Okay.
Peter Gordon: The circumstances in which my father and his first wife, Beata, and my half-brother, Andre were in Mexico were unusual ones and it was primarily a decision that was political. They received asylum and it was primarily my father's association with the International Brigades who were on the political left. The government of Mexico from 1934-1940 was led by Lázaro Cárdenas who was strongly oriented toward socialist ideas, but not very doctrinaire. He famously allowed, at the request of Diego Rivera, refuge for Leon Trotsky, which the communists did not appreciate. Trotsky was the object of a tremendous amount of negative propaganda and also attacks. Ultimately, he was murdered by Soviet agents.
Being in Mexico of course presented a problem about how to live. The legislation in Mexico that allowed political asylum also allowed people to work in their profession. There were some restrictions, for example, I believe they could not work as waiters. There was general concern that immigrants were not wanted because they would compete with Mexicans for jobs. Of course, my father was a doctor, but establishing a medical practice requires a lot of things, including having your credentials accepted. There is a great deal of correspondence to my father from various officials in different departments in Mexico reviewing his credentials giving him provisional permission to practice medicine for 30 days or 60 days and then longer, translations of his diploma and record, and validation of his college record by the Polish Legation. The correspondence is interesting in many ways but quite repetitive. One interesting thing about it is what it says about the time. Over many signatures, there's a slogan, "Sufragio Effectivo. No Reeleccion" (effective suffrage and no reelection), that's very Mexican. No reelection was a cardinal principle of Mexican politics and I believe it still is. The reason being is that leaders who had attained the presidency would not give it up in the past and that became a principle of the organization of Mexican politics and that slogan is repeated on many of these letters.
Now, I don't really know how much my father was able to practice medicine or make a living practicing medicine at the start. He and his family left Veracruz and went to the town or city of Zacapoaxtla in Puebla and I don't know why they went there. I do know that at least initially the circumstances were very difficult. There are letters to my father from people in the United States and they are clearly responses to whether they could provide my father's family in Mexico with some help. The first one is from my father's great Uncle Phineas, who'd been the first member of the family to come to United States and had taken the name Gordon. My father had written to him in part because his mother had in the past said that Phineas might be able to send money. Uncle Phineas received the letter and wrote back. There's a translation my father did from the Yiddish saying that "it is difficult to be a greenhorn in a strange land", showing his Americanism. It also says that he has no money and his relatives have no money and they can't really help, but if they could, they would. They came to the United States without resources and did well and prospered to some degree, but they were probably wiped out by the Great Depression.
Hannah Gill: This was that letter that was in Yiddish that your father later translated into English, years later?
Peter Gordon: I presume it was years later. I could not find the original, but it's definitely my father's hand writing.
Hannah Gill: Your uncle, Phineas, did he spell his name with a F or PH?
Peter Gordon: PH. It was “Pinia” in Polish. There's another letter in Yiddish that I had translated. It was interesting. It is dated November 1942, so they had been in Mexico six or seven months. It says “Dear friend, a few days ago I received another letter from my cousin Dr. John Biezuner. He knows he has little hope of America because it's very difficult to take an immigrant over to America especially now that America severed relations with Vichy, France and Hitler is now in power there. My cousin is asking me to write to you and send you money, but unfortunately my family is very poor. I'm an elderly man over 70 and I still have to go to work." Then it goes back to his cousin-- and it says “Dear friend, for the love of gd”-- because that’s the name of the Lord-- “Try to do something to rescue them, there can be no greater mitzvah then to save three people from downfall. From me your unknown friend, H. Grodner." I think that it is a sign of desperation that he would think that my father, barely surviving in Mexico, could help the cousin and mutual friend. This made me very sad when I read it to think about that all. I had just skimmed over the name at the top when I first read the translation and when I looked at it again I said to myself that I know that name from my childhood. And if I knew the name from my childhood, they must have survived. And with the miracle of the internet I was able to find out about him. He died in the 1990s.
He and his family got out in 1944 on a boat. They had first gone to Spain which was an interesting place in that if you were on politically on the wrong side you were in very bad trouble, but Franco's government did not persecute Jews, did not hand them over to other parties. They were able to live in Spain for some time before ultimately getting transit through the United States to Canada where Biezuner reestablished his medical practice. The photos I have of my father in 1932 in Montpellier, these three all show John Biezuner. They were Polish students, Jewish Poles, who had gone to Medical School. I was able to find John Biezuner’s daughter and she knew me immediately. She remembered me quite well. And that was a very happy twist to what had seemed like a very sad story.
Hannah Gill: Did this happen in between the last time we talked?
Peter Gordon: Yes.
Hannah Gill: Did she explain if your father was able to help them?
Peter Gordon: Well, once I knew the name Biezuner, I knew I could find something. I found a posting at one of the immigration museums in Canada, their regional museums with virtual in addition to the physical collections and I was able to find a summary by John Biezuner’s granddaughter of her grandfather's journey. Fran, the second daughter, was actually born in Spain and was named Francesca after Francisco Franco because Spain had provided them a haven. I talked to Fran who definitely remembered me. She said they would come from Canada and visit us all the time, but things fell off after my father died. My father's medical school thesis was dedicated to many people, the dedications consumed a lot of pages, and one of them is John Biezuner. But Fran said that her parents never really talked about their escape from Europe. They wanted to move on. But I will ask her to look for any correspondence from my father to her father. I also have a card from John Biezuner to my father from Toronto dated some time in 1944, so they had reestablished contact by then. My father must have been very happy. An issue in terms of survival --and the Biezuner family reminds me of this-- is that I still don’t know how my father found out about his family that was still in Europe. In fact, the letter from Biezuner is hard to read, his handwriting is challenging. His daughter concurred that she could not read her father's handwriting. She was actually a French teacher and he wrote in French, but she could not read his French. His card mentions the name Cadoret, and Cadoret is the name of the man my father's oldest sister, Maria known as Masha, was married to. She was completing her medical studies at the University of Paris and she married a Breton, Cadoret. They had a son, my cousin Maturin, born in 1940. Masha, of course had some advantages being married to a French man and some disadvantages being in occupied France rather than Vichy France, but ultimately she escaped to Spain as well. I was told she climbed over the Pyrenees with her baby. And then from Spain made her way first to Casablanca then ultimately to Algeria where she passed the war before returning to France. She survived and it’s clear that that card from John Biezuner was informing my father in part about his sister’s status.
I don’t know when he heard about the rest of his family. This is a family photo taken in Bielsk in 1933.
My father did return to Bielsk at least once and maybe twice after starting studies in France, and you can see my father, he's in the back row with glasses and his mother, Rachel and his father, Hillel. This is Masha and this then is the next brother, Menasha, Jakob, Mina and Rebeka. The first child, my father, was born in 1911 and the last was born in 1923. I don’t know how this was known, but it’s reported that Menasha was almost immediately shot once Germans had taken over Eastern Poland. He had in fact gone back to Poland after the Partition and I have a lot of his correspondence to my father. According to my mother, my father begged him not to go back. He was shot immediately after the Germans took over. The rest of the family, as far as can be known, was deported to Treblinka sometime in the fall of 1942 and killed there. My grandfather would have been 60 years old, my grandmother 55 or 56. My youngest aunt would have been 19. I don't know when my father found out about that. I have heard the story from my mother, that when my father found out he cried for two days. I don't know how he found out. There is a letter here in Polish to my father that almost certainly I now believe he received after having known his family died. This was from June of 1945 and it’s from a man named Theodore Parnicki, who was a fairly prominent Polish novelist. He was in Mexico as part of the Polish Legation.
Hannah Gill: Can you clarify what the Polish Legation exactly was?
Peter Gordon: The Polish Legation was officials of the Polish government who were operating in another country, essentially they were associated with the ambassador’s office. They would have the kind of functions you would see in the correspondence with my father, verifying citizenship, helping their citizens. The issue was that Poland didn’t exist anymore though there was a Polish government in exile that was in London that represented a continuation of the Polish government. These officials were part of that continued Polish government. I’ve deciphered a bit of this letter even though it’s a long, handwritten letter in Polish. And it begins “Dear doctor. . .”, which seems a little formal compared to some other letters, and I wonder if they had known each other, but I've decided they must have. The letter has repetitions that look similar to verses. I figured out the first sentence, which says that he’s sending my father a poem by Julian Tuwim, a very prominent Polish poet, and I believe the poem is April Flowers, which is a very long poem about what was happening in Poland. I suspect that this was a letter about dealing with grief. That's jumping ahead a bit chronologically. It’s consistent with the idea that there were many refugees in Mexico that were associated with literary efforts or artistic efforts.
My father and his first wife were divorced. Their divorce was finalized in the year after they arrived in Mexico. Beata had also received medical education in Montpellier, which is presumably where my father had met her. She was Polish. She never as far as I know practiced medicine, but I read that she along with Liza Hollander, who I mentioned previously, who’s discussed in some books, formed something called the Polish Mexican Union. I presume this was to provide some sort of Polish group, similar to a kind of club. One thing I've read about is that when Bosques returned to Mexico, the club had a celebratory dinner for him. Bosques had been the general counsel as I said in France. When the Germans occupied Vichy France, they arrested Bosques, his wife, their children and all the members of the very large Mexican delegation. They were held by the Gestapo for a year and were finally released as part of a prisoner exchange with Mexico. Bosques' return to Mexico is something that was celebrated.
There’s a letter from Beata in May of 1943 to my father saying that she was thankful for the 100 pesos and that she had two things to make him aware of: the first was that he had to retrieve his official documents that he had sent in order to establish his credentials, the second was that a Polish doctor who had come to Mexico earlier to escape from what was happening – he was a prominent physician and had developed a test for abdominal problems -- was working with the Polish Legation to look for a doctor for a refugee camp. Beata said that my father should be careful about how he presented himself, and say that he was like a Republican (he had been in the Polish Army) and a Democrat (he had been in the Spanish Army). This is how my father was introduced to the position that he took ultimately. There’s correspondence asking for my father to come and talk to the Polish doctor and that he’ll be reimbursed for his travel expenses. There are at least two letters dated on the same day, indicating that the process happened quickly.
The refugees were from Eastern Poland. When the Soviets took over Eastern Poland they deported a large number of residents to inhospitable places. These refugees were primarily deported to Siberia and the reasons were varying. Deportations would happen suddenly and troops would say that they had to leave. They were transported in terrible conditions and many died on the way. Some ended up in camps where there were quotas of physical labor that had to be completed each day. If you completed it, you received your ration of food and if you didn’t you wouldn’t receive your ration of food. Many died of malnutrition.
After the Germans invaded the Soviet Union there was an alliance between the Soviet Union and Britain.
The British made it a condition of alliance that the Soviets release these Polish prisoners and the Soviets explicitly granted them all what they called "amnesty". Then they were provided with some help, but not a lot, to get out of the places where they were. They all migrated south with a first goal being a stopover in Iran. There they felt that the Iranian people were nice and accommodating. Iran was controlled by the British for whom the primary goal was to form the released prisoners into a Polish army to help fight the Germans. There was also a humanitarian aspect to this because there were men who had been wounded and women and children who would not be suitable for the army. The question arose as to how to provide for these people. Iran was too close to the military action. They looked for places for these people to go and some went to Mexico. It was an arrangement made by the United States, Polish, British, and Mexican governments. The agreement was that the Mexican government would allow up to 20,000 Polish refugees to be settled in Mexico, but there were conditions that they would be supported entirely without funds from Mexico, so entirely by the sponsoring governments. Most of the money came from the United States Government. They would also not be able to work so they wouldn’t compete with Mexicans for jobs and that after the war, they’d leave. They’d also have to be in camps. In some levels it was generous, but in others, it was still a harsh set of conditions to live by. The refugees came to live in Mexico by first going to Iran from India, then in two groups were transported by US navy boats around the Pacific to San Diego -- where they were guarded to make sure they didn't try to escape into the United States -- then by train to a place called Hacienda Santa Rosa outside of Leon. The Hacienda Santa Rosa, became known as "the colony". According to most accounts the site was selected because it was remote. The concern was the British and the US officials did not want to antagonize Stalin. They did not want Polish refugees to be taking to the press and creating bad publicity that might be a source of antagonism.
The refugees were in terrible shape and you can know that about reading about the time. I have a photo here of it. It shows children not looking so good, in this top photo. Their hair is very short, probably to deal with lice and they just look very unhappy. By all accounts they had reason to be, all they could do is survive. They do look better as you go along. There has been a lot written about the colony of Santa Rosa.
The first academic work on the colony was published in 1945 as a master’s thesis by two students, Fay Calkins and Laurama Page. The title was is Santa Rosa: A Present Fact and a Future Problem. All colleges had trouble staying in business because their clientele was young men and the young men were in the military. They began to admit women and Haverford College took Calkins and Page into a masters program. Their thesis has a good description of the colony. They separated their evaluations from their detailed fact-oriented descriptions. They described how the people there had suffered so badly and that the adults were in a situation where they weren’t free. The children had suffered badly too, but they received education and had activities to do. They also note that my father was the chief doctor and part of the reason was because even though two other doctors had come over with the refugees, they could not legally practice medicine in Mexico. They did care for the refugees but this had to be done under my father's supervision and authority.
The camp was organized by the US government from July to November ’43. It was under the supervision of the US government that my father was hired. The Polish government then took over the camp from November ’43 – July of 1945. The funding was from the US government, it covered supplies and any construction that had to be done. There were multiple organizations, including the Polish War Relief, which was an organization within the United States, provided money for education, medical health, and clothing. The National Catholic Welfare Conference also provided funds and staff.
The first group of refugees arrived in August of 1943, the second group arrived in November of 1943.
The first account written by a staff member, Mary D'Arc published in the 1960s, said that proper housing was not available until November of 1944. Mary D'Arc represented an additional group, she was a Felician nun from Chicago. That organization had a strong Polish heritage, and the nuns were all bilingual in Polish and English. The people in Mexico were not ready for the kinds of refugees who came. There were 270 orphans and they had no facilities for dealing with them. So, the Felician Sisters sent six nuns to Mexico to care for the orphans. Mary D'Arc was the head Sister, she supervised them. It's interesting that at that time the Mexican Constitution banned wearing of religious garb, so these women who had probably lived for many years in their habits had to go around in ordinary clothes. D'Arc wrote that one of the major problems facing the administration was to provide medical care. She said, "In spite of the lack of proper quarters, equipment, or pharmacy, Dr. Samuel Chrabolowski, the head of the staff, with superhuman efforts on his part, managed to cope with the difficult situation." Eileen Egan, who was with the National Catholic Welfare Conference, is perhaps the most prominent person associated with the camp. She wrote a book called For Whom there is No Room about refugees during World War II that was published in the 1990s. She also discusses Santa Rosa and the terrible problems, psychological and moral problems faced by the refugees.
I have a picture of the medical facilities -- that does take you back. There’s a chair for minor surgery.
There’s a lab bench with a microscope, so the physicians did their own blood test. This is a picture of my father first wife, Beata and my half-brother, Andre. This is almost certainly in France and this one is certainly in Mexico with the palm trees. And here is Andre, a little older and there’s a picture of my father with Lazaro Cardenas. According to the historical accounts, Cardenas showed up one day at the colony to check on improvements to the road to Leon. That is not a very glorious job for a former president, but it was said that he constantly would travel the country to meet people. That personal generosity is noted in all accounts of him. My father looked serious, everyone looks serious in all official photos of the time, but he also looks pleased. I think that he must have been.
There are a lot of people who wrote about Santa Rosa and tried to come away with the significance of it.
Certainly, I can't help thinking about it and try to do that myself. There were a lot of terrible problems there. They had their basis in part by the terrible conditions under which the refugees had lived for many years, they were devastated. It had to do with the lack of resources to take care of them. It also had to do with the fact that the people running of the place had different backgrounds and different priorities. For example, the Polish administrator for the main period of the camp had previously been the representative of the Polish government to Francisco Franco's regime during the Spanish Civil War. So that is an odd mix. You had my father, who was hired first by the Americans, and who was a veteran of the International Brigades working with a man who presumably was sympathetic to the Nationalists in Spain.
Also, Poland was a very Catholic country and emphasizes that a great deal. Part of the Spanish Civil War was about religion and the Catholic Church in general was anti-Spanish Republic. Then you have a country – Mexico -- that had recently, maybe 10 years earlier, finished a war about the practice of religion and that still prohibited people from going in public with their religious clothing. Then you had multiple funding sources, and every funding source has its own agenda. You had a very small number of Jewish refugees. There was lots of concern about antisemitism among the other refugees, it's hard to assess the magnitude of that. Even among the US-supported charities you had very different backgrounds and goals.
It’s clear that my father got along very well with the Felician Sisters, that's a compliment to say that your efforts were superhuman, I didn't even know that that word was used back then. He also got along well with the people from the National Catholic Welfare Conference, but in other cases not so well.
This is correspondence to my father from a woman who spent time in Santa Rosa and who was part of the National Catholic Welfare Conference. You can see here that it is on letterhead and the address is 350 Fifth Avenue, New York – the Empire State Building. She refers to the problems at the colony. She says that she wants to hear about a visit by a person from the Polish charities. “I was told that all of you quarreled and that you would not permit him into the hospital”. She was sympathetic to my father but tells him there are not going to be changes in the staff. She's in contact with people in the National Catholic Welfare Conference and with the Polish Legation in the US and that they are not going to make changes. Then she says that she writing to him in English because her Polish is too formal – that of course helps me. She says that she has become well acquainted with his handwriting and whether he writes in Spanish, French or Polish, she'll manage to understand it but that she’d prefer if he wrote to her in Polish because she knows practically no Spanish and her French is just as poor. So, apparently he wrote letters in whatever language suited him at the moment. She then goes on that she received his postcards and that he appears to be enjoying himself. She agrees with his statement that the war will be over before they find a location for the new group of refugees. So, they were expecting more refugees and they were looking for another location. She reproaches him and says that to us it appears that they were having a wonderful time and neglecting their duties. [Peter shares several photos with Hannah and they have a brief exchange not included in the transcription]It does look like, certainly from this photo, people taking a trip and having all too good a time according to this woman back in New York.
Then she writes that she thought she might be going to Africa, but unfortunately she’ll have to remain in New York at her desk. Whether or not she will be able to go to Poland later on – assuming that there is a Poland to go to – she has no way of knowing. Clearly, she is committed to refugee work. I've looked up this woman and this gets to issues of different social groups. She received a Bachelor’s from Barnard College and a Masters in the mid-1930s from NYU with a thesis on Polish immigrants in New York. She goes on to say that she does not know if he has heard officially from Eileen Eigan, that she has been back around two months. She has been very busy reporting on her work abroad and has been speaking about the work that she has done in Mexico and Spain. She doesn't see much of Eigan at the office and then each of us has her work to do – that implies they were friends. She says that she believes that Eigan does a lot of her research in the evening, but that she herself spends her time at the Ballet Russe or seeing some play or going to the symphony. She's afraid that she is the frivolous type, but she has fun and will not change. Becoming more serious, she says that in thinking about Santa Rosa, couldn't they just forget their differences and work effectively together. These letters are very interesting…she also asked about my father’s son, my half-brother.
In July of 1945 a US military plane on a routine trip from Massachusetts to Newark got lost in fog and smashed into the Empire State Building. It smashed directly into the floor where the offices of the National Catholic Welfare Conference were. Everyone on the plane was killed and eleven people in the building were killed, including this woman. I don't know about their relationship, I do know that I was told by my mother that there was a woman whom my father was very close to who was killed in this way.
At the end of the war in 1945, you would think that people would have been happy, but even beginning a year earlier, the Soviet Union had reoccupied all of Eastern Poland and made it clear that they would have a very large say as to what the Polish government would be. It’s reported that the divisions within the exile community became more apparent as it became clear that the war was ending. For the refugees it was not clear what was going to happen, they did not want to go back to Poland. The vast majority of them did not. According to Mary D'Arc, about a third of the refugees went to the US. Only 50 out of 1500 returned to Poland. Twenty-five young women married Canadians of Polish descent whom they’d met through correspondence. The remainder decided to stay in Mexico, which they were allowed to do despite the agreement that all the refugees would leave Mexico after the war ended.
The Mexican government officially recognized the new, communist Polish government in the summer of 1945. That left the administration of the colony up in the air. The American consulate took over the administration of the camp. They had done it in the beginning and at the end. There were a difficult set of circumstances. There are a number of documents of interest, one is a newspaper article from my father’s papers. This is a Polish language newspaper published in the United States in March of 1946. It is an instance of what you can find of extreme rhetoric, and attacked my father and his reputation. It is very clear that extreme rhetoric went in every direction. It said that my father was now the dictator of the colony and that he decided who would work and who would go to the US. It said that he had been expelled from Poland and that he took his orders directly from Moscow. It must have been hurtful. It happened after he decided to leave the colony and they decided to vilify him, but he had his own life to live. It’s also relevant that the divisions in the Polish community were coming out and the Polish Mexican Democratic Union openly declared collaboration and alliance with the USSR. The new Polish representatives from the communist government, sought out someone to be the head of an organization called "Pol Press", which was to establish Polish press in Mexico. The person who they put in that job was my father’s first wife, Beata Babad.
Hannah Gill: Where was she living at that time? While he was living in the colony?
Peter Gordon: I think that she was mostly still in Zacapoaxtla, but she may have been in Mexico City.
My mother told me that my father had never been a communist and that he wanted to fight the fascists.
My brother said that one of our relatives said that he had been an anarchist. I was told that Beata became a communist once she came to Mexico, that she was moving in these very ideological circles and that she became a communist then. Certainly, there was some association between my father and these organizations. There are a variety of papers that are near the end of my father’s time that came from Mexican officials that testify to his good character. It’s not clear to me why he had these, but I believe they were part of renewing his status in Mexico and they were related to his being able to defend his reputation if he needed to. He had them from the head of police in Leon, from the inspector, and president of the administrative junta, just all sorts of people. There were also documents from family in the US stating that they could support my father if he came to the US. With that my father was apparently able to get entrance into the US and I was told that he took the greyhound bus to Chicago. I have evidence of his crossing the border in Laredo in the summer of 1946, in June. That’s also in his passport.
Hannah Gill: And the terms of which he could immigrate to the US?
Peter Gordon: I don’t know.
Hannah Gill: If you had a sponsor, that was all you needed?
Peter Gordon: I don’t know, I read that after WWII ended there were some people in the US who wanted to be very generous to refugees, but that politically that was not acceptable, that Congress refused to do it.
So, President Truman said that immigration would continue to be determined by quotas, but that he would give priority to refugees within those quotas. I suspect it wasn’t just having someone willing to commit to supporting you, you had to fit within the quota. My father was clearly a refugee, and I expect that it was that priority combined with support that allowed him to immigrate.
Hannah Gill: Thank you, so much.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Profesores
Es: Género de entrevistado
Hombre
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Temas
Guerra y violencia; Experiencia migratoria; Racismo y discriminación; Religión; Salud
Es: Transcripción
Hannah Gill: Okay, I am here with Peter Gordon. My name is Hannah Gill. This is December 7, 2018 and we’re going to be continuing our interview about the migration story of Peter's father, Samuel Chrabolowski. Peter, let’s continue.
Peter Gordon: Thank you, Hannah. We left off last time with my father’s arrival with his first wife and their son in Veracruz. That was in April of 1942. There's a lot to try to understand about that and I don't understand all of it. I am learning more about it. One thing that I've learned that is very relevant is that my father was a Polish citizen. His Polish passport was issued in 1931 and was good for 10 years. It had expired in 1941 and he had no current passport. But of course Poland at that point had ceased to exist. The Nazis had invaded western Poland and had essentially annexed part of it and managed part of it. The Soviets invaded Eastern Poland and occupied it. Poland had not existed for 100 or so years in the 19th and early 20th century. It had only been recreated after WWI. So not having a valid passport was obviously problematic if you wanted to cross borders. Another fact that may or may not be relevant is that at the end of the Spanish Civil War, there were many people in the International Brigades, who were leaving Spain or trying to leave Spain. Many of them faced real problems of where they could go. The Prime Minister of the Spanish Republic at that point, Juan Negrin, promised all of the members of the International Brigades’ Spanish nationality. Now that was not something that he could deliver on because he was out of power and fled the country in a few months after that. But he made that promise and the Spanish government actually made good on it in the 1990’s by giving ex-combatants in the International Brigades an opportunity for a few years to claim Spanish citizenship. That point is relevant because Mexico was a strong supporter of the Spanish Republic. It's very clear that Mexico's policies, both official and actual, were to provide refuge to Spanish Republicans because they faced very severe, terrible reprisals in Spain. Many officials of the Republican Government were simply executed. Others were put into labor camps for many years. It was a very repressive situation politically.
Mexico, to my understanding, has always felt a strong connection both to Spain and to the Americas. It sees itself as a fusion of those two peoples and was happy to have people from Spain come to Mexico. It was not necessarily eager or willing to take other kinds of people. In reading about it it’s clear that people in Mexico had different opinions; many wanted to help refugees, but others didn't. There was actually a discussion about whether International-Brigade members who had not been born in Spain should be considered as acceptable refugees in Mexico. This went back and forth. In fact, there was a case of a doctor in the International Brigades, Liza Hollander, who had a child while she was in Spain. The Mexican consulate officials in France said that her child was Spanish. Since she and her husband were necessary companions to their child, they could all enter Mexico. That's documented. Now, my father did not have a child in Spain, but his immigration document to Mexico had the following information that was surprising to me. It has two places for information to be entered asking where you were from. It had a place where it said Pais de Nacimiento (country of birth), and this place was filled in “Polonia”. Then it asked for Nacionalidad Actual (actual nationality) and that place was filled in, “Española”. So, this document – this very official-looking document - says that my father had Spanish nationality and he was admitted for political asylum. That was the status that Mexico honored, they accepted political refugees providing them with asylum. At that point they hadn't developed policies for humanitarian refugees, for accepting refugees on humanitarian grounds. There are many documents within the large pile of official Mexican documents that I have that describe my father as being of Spanish nationality. Now, there is also-- and I just pulled this one out-- a form that he filled out partially, which was probably a draft that he didn't submit. He had to repeatedly renew his credentials for being in Mexico. In this form there is a statement “Soy victima en mi pais ______ de persecuciones politicas” and the blank is filled in España. This was at some level a fiction, but it was accepted by the Mexican officials and even suggested by the Mexican officials that my father comply with it.
Hannah Gill: Do you think that he would have filled this in? Or does that serve as his hand writing?
Peter Gordon: I think it is. I would have to check more carefully if someone else had filled it in. It's not complete and I can't find the first two pages. I think he may have started to fill this one and kept it blank.
The date on that as I believe in ‘45 or ‘46 would have been well after the initial migration. It's also the case that there is a letter to my father from the Polish Legation in Mexico, verifying that he is a Polish citizen and so are a number of other people who were on the boat that they arrived in. I presume that he got this in part to satisfy Mexican officials of something, I don't know that for sure.
Hannah Gill: Okay.
Peter Gordon: The circumstances in which my father and his first wife, Beata, and my half-brother, Andre were in Mexico were unusual ones and it was primarily a decision that was political. They received asylum and it was primarily my father's association with the International Brigades who were on the political left. The government of Mexico from 1934-1940 was led by Lázaro Cárdenas who was strongly oriented toward socialist ideas, but not very doctrinaire. He famously allowed, at the request of Diego Rivera, refuge for Leon Trotsky, which the communists did not appreciate. Trotsky was the object of a tremendous amount of negative propaganda and also attacks. Ultimately, he was murdered by Soviet agents.
Being in Mexico of course presented a problem about how to live. The legislation in Mexico that allowed political asylum also allowed people to work in their profession. There were some restrictions, for example, I believe they could not work as waiters. There was general concern that immigrants were not wanted because they would compete with Mexicans for jobs. Of course, my father was a doctor, but establishing a medical practice requires a lot of things, including having your credentials accepted. There is a great deal of correspondence to my father from various officials in different departments in Mexico reviewing his credentials giving him provisional permission to practice medicine for 30 days or 60 days and then longer, translations of his diploma and record, and validation of his college record by the Polish Legation. The correspondence is interesting in many ways but quite repetitive. One interesting thing about it is what it says about the time. Over many signatures, there's a slogan, "Sufragio Effectivo. No Reeleccion" (effective suffrage and no reelection), that's very Mexican. No reelection was a cardinal principle of Mexican politics and I believe it still is. The reason being is that leaders who had attained the presidency would not give it up in the past and that became a principle of the organization of Mexican politics and that slogan is repeated on many of these letters.
Now, I don't really know how much my father was able to practice medicine or make a living practicing medicine at the start. He and his family left Veracruz and went to the town or city of Zacapoaxtla in Puebla and I don't know why they went there. I do know that at least initially the circumstances were very difficult. There are letters to my father from people in the United States and they are clearly responses to whether they could provide my father's family in Mexico with some help. The first one is from my father's great Uncle Phineas, who'd been the first member of the family to come to United States and had taken the name Gordon. My father had written to him in part because his mother had in the past said that Phineas might be able to send money. Uncle Phineas received the letter and wrote back. There's a translation my father did from the Yiddish saying that "it is difficult to be a greenhorn in a strange land", showing his Americanism. It also says that he has no money and his relatives have no money and they can't really help, but if they could, they would. They came to the United States without resources and did well and prospered to some degree, but they were probably wiped out by the Great Depression.
Hannah Gill: This was that letter that was in Yiddish that your father later translated into English, years later?
Peter Gordon: I presume it was years later. I could not find the original, but it's definitely my father's hand writing.
Hannah Gill: Your uncle, Phineas, did he spell his name with a F or PH?
Peter Gordon: PH. It was “Pinia” in Polish. There's another letter in Yiddish that I had translated. It was interesting. It is dated November 1942, so they had been in Mexico six or seven months. It says “Dear friend, a few days ago I received another letter from my cousin Dr. John Biezuner. He knows he has little hope of America because it's very difficult to take an immigrant over to America especially now that America severed relations with Vichy, France and Hitler is now in power there. My cousin is asking me to write to you and send you money, but unfortunately my family is very poor. I'm an elderly man over 70 and I still have to go to work." Then it goes back to his cousin-- and it says “Dear friend, for the love of gd”-- because that’s the name of the Lord-- “Try to do something to rescue them, there can be no greater mitzvah then to save three people from downfall. From me your unknown friend, H. Grodner." I think that it is a sign of desperation that he would think that my father, barely surviving in Mexico, could help the cousin and mutual friend. This made me very sad when I read it to think about that all. I had just skimmed over the name at the top when I first read the translation and when I looked at it again I said to myself that I know that name from my childhood. And if I knew the name from my childhood, they must have survived. And with the miracle of the internet I was able to find out about him. He died in the 1990s.
He and his family got out in 1944 on a boat. They had first gone to Spain which was an interesting place in that if you were on politically on the wrong side you were in very bad trouble, but Franco's government did not persecute Jews, did not hand them over to other parties. They were able to live in Spain for some time before ultimately getting transit through the United States to Canada where Biezuner reestablished his medical practice. The photos I have of my father in 1932 in Montpellier, these three all show John Biezuner. They were Polish students, Jewish Poles, who had gone to Medical School. I was able to find John Biezuner’s daughter and she knew me immediately. She remembered me quite well. And that was a very happy twist to what had seemed like a very sad story.
Hannah Gill: Did this happen in between the last time we talked?
Peter Gordon: Yes.
Hannah Gill: Did she explain if your father was able to help them?
Peter Gordon: Well, once I knew the name Biezuner, I knew I could find something. I found a posting at one of the immigration museums in Canada, their regional museums with virtual in addition to the physical collections and I was able to find a summary by John Biezuner’s granddaughter of her grandfather's journey. Fran, the second daughter, was actually born in Spain and was named Francesca after Francisco Franco because Spain had provided them a haven. I talked to Fran who definitely remembered me. She said they would come from Canada and visit us all the time, but things fell off after my father died. My father's medical school thesis was dedicated to many people, the dedications consumed a lot of pages, and one of them is John Biezuner. But Fran said that her parents never really talked about their escape from Europe. They wanted to move on. But I will ask her to look for any correspondence from my father to her father. I also have a card from John Biezuner to my father from Toronto dated some time in 1944, so they had reestablished contact by then. My father must have been very happy. An issue in terms of survival --and the Biezuner family reminds me of this-- is that I still don’t know how my father found out about his family that was still in Europe. In fact, the letter from Biezuner is hard to read, his handwriting is challenging. His daughter concurred that she could not read her father's handwriting. She was actually a French teacher and he wrote in French, but she could not read his French. His card mentions the name Cadoret, and Cadoret is the name of the man my father's oldest sister, Maria known as Masha, was married to. She was completing her medical studies at the University of Paris and she married a Breton, Cadoret. They had a son, my cousin Maturin, born in 1940. Masha, of course had some advantages being married to a French man and some disadvantages being in occupied France rather than Vichy France, but ultimately she escaped to Spain as well. I was told she climbed over the Pyrenees with her baby. And then from Spain made her way first to Casablanca then ultimately to Algeria where she passed the war before returning to France. She survived and it’s clear that that card from John Biezuner was informing my father in part about his sister’s status.
I don’t know when he heard about the rest of his family. This is a family photo taken in Bielsk in 1933.
My father did return to Bielsk at least once and maybe twice after starting studies in France, and you can see my father, he's in the back row with glasses and his mother, Rachel and his father, Hillel. This is Masha and this then is the next brother, Menasha, Jakob, Mina and Rebeka. The first child, my father, was born in 1911 and the last was born in 1923. I don’t know how this was known, but it’s reported that Menasha was almost immediately shot once Germans had taken over Eastern Poland. He had in fact gone back to Poland after the Partition and I have a lot of his correspondence to my father. According to my mother, my father begged him not to go back. He was shot immediately after the Germans took over. The rest of the family, as far as can be known, was deported to Treblinka sometime in the fall of 1942 and killed there. My grandfather would have been 60 years old, my grandmother 55 or 56. My youngest aunt would have been 19. I don't know when my father found out about that. I have heard the story from my mother, that when my father found out he cried for two days. I don't know how he found out. There is a letter here in Polish to my father that almost certainly I now believe he received after having known his family died. This was from June of 1945 and it’s from a man named Theodore Parnicki, who was a fairly prominent Polish novelist. He was in Mexico as part of the Polish Legation.
Hannah Gill: Can you clarify what the Polish Legation exactly was?
Peter Gordon: The Polish Legation was officials of the Polish government who were operating in another country, essentially they were associated with the ambassador’s office. They would have the kind of functions you would see in the correspondence with my father, verifying citizenship, helping their citizens. The issue was that Poland didn’t exist anymore though there was a Polish government in exile that was in London that represented a continuation of the Polish government. These officials were part of that continued Polish government. I’ve deciphered a bit of this letter even though it’s a long, handwritten letter in Polish. And it begins “Dear doctor. . .”, which seems a little formal compared to some other letters, and I wonder if they had known each other, but I've decided they must have. The letter has repetitions that look similar to verses. I figured out the first sentence, which says that he’s sending my father a poem by Julian Tuwim, a very prominent Polish poet, and I believe the poem is April Flowers, which is a very long poem about what was happening in Poland. I suspect that this was a letter about dealing with grief. That's jumping ahead a bit chronologically. It’s consistent with the idea that there were many refugees in Mexico that were associated with literary efforts or artistic efforts.
My father and his first wife were divorced. Their divorce was finalized in the year after they arrived in Mexico. Beata had also received medical education in Montpellier, which is presumably where my father had met her. She was Polish. She never as far as I know practiced medicine, but I read that she along with Liza Hollander, who I mentioned previously, who’s discussed in some books, formed something called the Polish Mexican Union. I presume this was to provide some sort of Polish group, similar to a kind of club. One thing I've read about is that when Bosques returned to Mexico, the club had a celebratory dinner for him. Bosques had been the general counsel as I said in France. When the Germans occupied Vichy France, they arrested Bosques, his wife, their children and all the members of the very large Mexican delegation. They were held by the Gestapo for a year and were finally released as part of a prisoner exchange with Mexico. Bosques' return to Mexico is something that was celebrated.
There’s a letter from Beata in May of 1943 to my father saying that she was thankful for the 100 pesos and that she had two things to make him aware of: the first was that he had to retrieve his official documents that he had sent in order to establish his credentials, the second was that a Polish doctor who had come to Mexico earlier to escape from what was happening – he was a prominent physician and had developed a test for abdominal problems -- was working with the Polish Legation to look for a doctor for a refugee camp. Beata said that my father should be careful about how he presented himself, and say that he was like a Republican (he had been in the Polish Army) and a Democrat (he had been in the Spanish Army). This is how my father was introduced to the position that he took ultimately. There’s correspondence asking for my father to come and talk to the Polish doctor and that he’ll be reimbursed for his travel expenses. There are at least two letters dated on the same day, indicating that the process happened quickly.
The refugees were from Eastern Poland. When the Soviets took over Eastern Poland they deported a large number of residents to inhospitable places. These refugees were primarily deported to Siberia and the reasons were varying. Deportations would happen suddenly and troops would say that they had to leave. They were transported in terrible conditions and many died on the way. Some ended up in camps where there were quotas of physical labor that had to be completed each day. If you completed it, you received your ration of food and if you didn’t you wouldn’t receive your ration of food. Many died of malnutrition.
After the Germans invaded the Soviet Union there was an alliance between the Soviet Union and Britain.
The British made it a condition of alliance that the Soviets release these Polish prisoners and the Soviets explicitly granted them all what they called "amnesty". Then they were provided with some help, but not a lot, to get out of the places where they were. They all migrated south with a first goal being a stopover in Iran. There they felt that the Iranian people were nice and accommodating. Iran was controlled by the British for whom the primary goal was to form the released prisoners into a Polish army to help fight the Germans. There was also a humanitarian aspect to this because there were men who had been wounded and women and children who would not be suitable for the army. The question arose as to how to provide for these people. Iran was too close to the military action. They looked for places for these people to go and some went to Mexico. It was an arrangement made by the United States, Polish, British, and Mexican governments. The agreement was that the Mexican government would allow up to 20,000 Polish refugees to be settled in Mexico, but there were conditions that they would be supported entirely without funds from Mexico, so entirely by the sponsoring governments. Most of the money came from the United States Government. They would also not be able to work so they wouldn’t compete with Mexicans for jobs and that after the war, they’d leave. They’d also have to be in camps. In some levels it was generous, but in others, it was still a harsh set of conditions to live by. The refugees came to live in Mexico by first going to Iran from India, then in two groups were transported by US navy boats around the Pacific to San Diego -- where they were guarded to make sure they didn't try to escape into the United States -- then by train to a place called Hacienda Santa Rosa outside of Leon. The Hacienda Santa Rosa, became known as "the colony". According to most accounts the site was selected because it was remote. The concern was the British and the US officials did not want to antagonize Stalin. They did not want Polish refugees to be taking to the press and creating bad publicity that might be a source of antagonism.
The refugees were in terrible shape and you can know that about reading about the time. I have a photo here of it. It shows children not looking so good, in this top photo. Their hair is very short, probably to deal with lice and they just look very unhappy. By all accounts they had reason to be, all they could do is survive. They do look better as you go along. There has been a lot written about the colony of Santa Rosa.
The first academic work on the colony was published in 1945 as a master’s thesis by two students, Fay Calkins and Laurama Page. The title was is Santa Rosa: A Present Fact and a Future Problem. All colleges had trouble staying in business because their clientele was young men and the young men were in the military. They began to admit women and Haverford College took Calkins and Page into a masters program. Their thesis has a good description of the colony. They separated their evaluations from their detailed fact-oriented descriptions. They described how the people there had suffered so badly and that the adults were in a situation where they weren’t free. The children had suffered badly too, but they received education and had activities to do. They also note that my father was the chief doctor and part of the reason was because even though two other doctors had come over with the refugees, they could not legally practice medicine in Mexico. They did care for the refugees but this had to be done under my father's supervision and authority.
The camp was organized by the US government from July to November ’43. It was under the supervision of the US government that my father was hired. The Polish government then took over the camp from November ’43 – July of 1945. The funding was from the US government, it covered supplies and any construction that had to be done. There were multiple organizations, including the Polish War Relief, which was an organization within the United States, provided money for education, medical health, and clothing. The National Catholic Welfare Conference also provided funds and staff.
The first group of refugees arrived in August of 1943, the second group arrived in November of 1943.
The first account written by a staff member, Mary D'Arc published in the 1960s, said that proper housing was not available until November of 1944. Mary D'Arc represented an additional group, she was a Felician nun from Chicago. That organization had a strong Polish heritage, and the nuns were all bilingual in Polish and English. The people in Mexico were not ready for the kinds of refugees who came. There were 270 orphans and they had no facilities for dealing with them. So, the Felician Sisters sent six nuns to Mexico to care for the orphans. Mary D'Arc was the head Sister, she supervised them. It's interesting that at that time the Mexican Constitution banned wearing of religious garb, so these women who had probably lived for many years in their habits had to go around in ordinary clothes. D'Arc wrote that one of the major problems facing the administration was to provide medical care. She said, "In spite of the lack of proper quarters, equipment, or pharmacy, Dr. Samuel Chrabolowski, the head of the staff, with superhuman efforts on his part, managed to cope with the difficult situation." Eileen Egan, who was with the National Catholic Welfare Conference, is perhaps the most prominent person associated with the camp. She wrote a book called For Whom there is No Room about refugees during World War II that was published in the 1990s. She also discusses Santa Rosa and the terrible problems, psychological and moral problems faced by the refugees.
I have a picture of the medical facilities -- that does take you back. There’s a chair for minor surgery.
There’s a lab bench with a microscope, so the physicians did their own blood test. This is a picture of my father first wife, Beata and my half-brother, Andre. This is almost certainly in France and this one is certainly in Mexico with the palm trees. And here is Andre, a little older and there’s a picture of my father with Lazaro Cardenas. According to the historical accounts, Cardenas showed up one day at the colony to check on improvements to the road to Leon. That is not a very glorious job for a former president, but it was said that he constantly would travel the country to meet people. That personal generosity is noted in all accounts of him. My father looked serious, everyone looks serious in all official photos of the time, but he also looks pleased. I think that he must have been.
There are a lot of people who wrote about Santa Rosa and tried to come away with the significance of it.
Certainly, I can't help thinking about it and try to do that myself. There were a lot of terrible problems there. They had their basis in part by the terrible conditions under which the refugees had lived for many years, they were devastated. It had to do with the lack of resources to take care of them. It also had to do with the fact that the people running of the place had different backgrounds and different priorities. For example, the Polish administrator for the main period of the camp had previously been the representative of the Polish government to Francisco Franco's regime during the Spanish Civil War. So that is an odd mix. You had my father, who was hired first by the Americans, and who was a veteran of the International Brigades working with a man who presumably was sympathetic to the Nationalists in Spain.
Also, Poland was a very Catholic country and emphasizes that a great deal. Part of the Spanish Civil War was about religion and the Catholic Church in general was anti-Spanish Republic. Then you have a country – Mexico -- that had recently, maybe 10 years earlier, finished a war about the practice of religion and that still prohibited people from going in public with their religious clothing. Then you had multiple funding sources, and every funding source has its own agenda. You had a very small number of Jewish refugees. There was lots of concern about antisemitism among the other refugees, it's hard to assess the magnitude of that. Even among the US-supported charities you had very different backgrounds and goals.
It’s clear that my father got along very well with the Felician Sisters, that's a compliment to say that your efforts were superhuman, I didn't even know that that word was used back then. He also got along well with the people from the National Catholic Welfare Conference, but in other cases not so well.
This is correspondence to my father from a woman who spent time in Santa Rosa and who was part of the National Catholic Welfare Conference. You can see here that it is on letterhead and the address is 350 Fifth Avenue, New York – the Empire State Building. She refers to the problems at the colony. She says that she wants to hear about a visit by a person from the Polish charities. “I was told that all of you quarreled and that you would not permit him into the hospital”. She was sympathetic to my father but tells him there are not going to be changes in the staff. She's in contact with people in the National Catholic Welfare Conference and with the Polish Legation in the US and that they are not going to make changes. Then she says that she writing to him in English because her Polish is too formal – that of course helps me. She says that she has become well acquainted with his handwriting and whether he writes in Spanish, French or Polish, she'll manage to understand it but that she’d prefer if he wrote to her in Polish because she knows practically no Spanish and her French is just as poor. So, apparently he wrote letters in whatever language suited him at the moment. She then goes on that she received his postcards and that he appears to be enjoying himself. She agrees with his statement that the war will be over before they find a location for the new group of refugees. So, they were expecting more refugees and they were looking for another location. She reproaches him and says that to us it appears that they were having a wonderful time and neglecting their duties. [Peter shares several photos with Hannah and they have a brief exchange not included in the transcription]It does look like, certainly from this photo, people taking a trip and having all too good a time according to this woman back in New York.
Then she writes that she thought she might be going to Africa, but unfortunately she’ll have to remain in New York at her desk. Whether or not she will be able to go to Poland later on – assuming that there is a Poland to go to – she has no way of knowing. Clearly, she is committed to refugee work. I've looked up this woman and this gets to issues of different social groups. She received a Bachelor’s from Barnard College and a Masters in the mid-1930s from NYU with a thesis on Polish immigrants in New York. She goes on to say that she does not know if he has heard officially from Eileen Eigan, that she has been back around two months. She has been very busy reporting on her work abroad and has been speaking about the work that she has done in Mexico and Spain. She doesn't see much of Eigan at the office and then each of us has her work to do – that implies they were friends. She says that she believes that Eigan does a lot of her research in the evening, but that she herself spends her time at the Ballet Russe or seeing some play or going to the symphony. She's afraid that she is the frivolous type, but she has fun and will not change. Becoming more serious, she says that in thinking about Santa Rosa, couldn't they just forget their differences and work effectively together. These letters are very interesting…she also asked about my father’s son, my half-brother.
In July of 1945 a US military plane on a routine trip from Massachusetts to Newark got lost in fog and smashed into the Empire State Building. It smashed directly into the floor where the offices of the National Catholic Welfare Conference were. Everyone on the plane was killed and eleven people in the building were killed, including this woman. I don't know about their relationship, I do know that I was told by my mother that there was a woman whom my father was very close to who was killed in this way.
At the end of the war in 1945, you would think that people would have been happy, but even beginning a year earlier, the Soviet Union had reoccupied all of Eastern Poland and made it clear that they would have a very large say as to what the Polish government would be. It’s reported that the divisions within the exile community became more apparent as it became clear that the war was ending. For the refugees it was not clear what was going to happen, they did not want to go back to Poland. The vast majority of them did not. According to Mary D'Arc, about a third of the refugees went to the US. Only 50 out of 1500 returned to Poland. Twenty-five young women married Canadians of Polish descent whom they’d met through correspondence. The remainder decided to stay in Mexico, which they were allowed to do despite the agreement that all the refugees would leave Mexico after the war ended.
The Mexican government officially recognized the new, communist Polish government in the summer of 1945. That left the administration of the colony up in the air. The American consulate took over the administration of the camp. They had done it in the beginning and at the end. There were a difficult set of circumstances. There are a number of documents of interest, one is a newspaper article from my father’s papers. This is a Polish language newspaper published in the United States in March of 1946. It is an instance of what you can find of extreme rhetoric, and attacked my father and his reputation. It is very clear that extreme rhetoric went in every direction. It said that my father was now the dictator of the colony and that he decided who would work and who would go to the US. It said that he had been expelled from Poland and that he took his orders directly from Moscow. It must have been hurtful. It happened after he decided to leave the colony and they decided to vilify him, but he had his own life to live. It’s also relevant that the divisions in the Polish community were coming out and the Polish Mexican Democratic Union openly declared collaboration and alliance with the USSR. The new Polish representatives from the communist government, sought out someone to be the head of an organization called "Pol Press", which was to establish Polish press in Mexico. The person who they put in that job was my father’s first wife, Beata Babad.
Hannah Gill: Where was she living at that time? While he was living in the colony?
Peter Gordon: I think that she was mostly still in Zacapoaxtla, but she may have been in Mexico City.
My mother told me that my father had never been a communist and that he wanted to fight the fascists.
My brother said that one of our relatives said that he had been an anarchist. I was told that Beata became a communist once she came to Mexico, that she was moving in these very ideological circles and that she became a communist then. Certainly, there was some association between my father and these organizations. There are a variety of papers that are near the end of my father’s time that came from Mexican officials that testify to his good character. It’s not clear to me why he had these, but I believe they were part of renewing his status in Mexico and they were related to his being able to defend his reputation if he needed to. He had them from the head of police in Leon, from the inspector, and president of the administrative junta, just all sorts of people. There were also documents from family in the US stating that they could support my father if he came to the US. With that my father was apparently able to get entrance into the US and I was told that he took the greyhound bus to Chicago. I have evidence of his crossing the border in Laredo in the summer of 1946, in June. That’s also in his passport.
Hannah Gill: And the terms of which he could immigrate to the US?
Peter Gordon: I don’t know.
Hannah Gill: If you had a sponsor, that was all you needed?
Peter Gordon: I don’t know, I read that after WWII ended there were some people in the US who wanted to be very generous to refugees, but that politically that was not acceptable, that Congress refused to do it.
So, President Truman said that immigration would continue to be determined by quotas, but that he would give priority to refugees within those quotas. I suspect it wasn’t just having someone willing to commit to supporting you, you had to fit within the quota. My father was clearly a refugee, and I expect that it was that priority combined with support that allowed him to immigrate.
Hannah Gill: Thank you, so much.
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Es: Resumen
Esta entrevista de historia oral es la segunda de una serie de tres partes con Peter Gordon en Chapel Hill, Carolina del Norte, el 7 de diciembre de 2018. Peter Gordon describe la historia de migración de su padre, Samuel Chrabolowski Gordon (“Sam Gordon”), durante la Segunda Guerra Mundial. Sam Chrabolowski Gordon nació en una familia judía en Polonia. Sam Gordon escapó de la persecución nazi al emigrar a México, donde trabajó como médico en un campo de refugiados en León, Guanajuato durante tres años antes de finalmente establecerse en los Estados Unidos. En la primera entrevista, Peter Gordon comienza la historia de su padre en la década de 1930 cuando Sam Gordon sirvió en las Brigadas Internacionales en la Guerra Civil Española y estudió medicina en la Universidad de Montpellier, Francia. En 1942, cuando la ocupación nazi amenazaba la vida de los judíos que vivían en Francia, Sam Gordon, su esposa Beata Babad y su hijo Andre Chrabolowski escaparon de Marsella en barco después de obtener una visa de entrada a México. La segunda entrevista comparte las experiencias de Samuel Gordon en México desde 1943 hasta el verano de 1946, donde fue el médico principal de la Colonia Santa Rosa para refugiados polacos en León, Guanajuato. La segunda entrevista describe como Beata Babad comenzó una carrera como escritora en el movimiento comunista. En la tercera entrevista, Peter Gordon habla de la emigración de su padre a los Estados Unidos a Washington, D.C. Peter Gordon es profesor en el Programa de Psicología Cognitiva dentro del Departamento de Psicología y Neurociencia de la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill (UNC por sus siglas en inglés). La entrevista fue realizada en Davie Hall en el campus de la UNC por Hannah Gill, Sub-Directora del Instituto de Estudios sobre las Américas e Investigadora Principal de las Historias Orales de New Roots / Nuevas Raíces.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Peter Gordon, 07 diciembre 2018, R-0986, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
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Title
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R-0986 -- Gordon, Peter.
Description
An account of the resource
This oral history interview is the second in a three-part series with Peter Gordon in Chapel Hill, North Carolina on December 7, 2018. Peter Gordon narrates the WWII migration story of his father, Samuel Chrabolowski Gordon (“Sam Gordon”), who was born to a Jewish family in Poland. Sam Gordon escaped Nazi persecution by migrating to Mexico, where he served as the doctor of a refugee camp in León, Guanajuato for three years before eventually settling in the United States. In the first interview, Peter Gordon begins his father’s story in the 1930s when Sam Gordon served in the International Brigades in the Spanish Civil War and attended medical school in Montpellier, France. In 1942, as Nazi occupation threatened the lives of Jews living in France, Sam Gordon, his wife Beata Babad, and son Andre Chrabolowski escaped from Marseille by boat after securing an entrance visa to Mexico. This second interview covers Sam Gordon’s experiences in Mexico from 1943 through the summer of 1946, where he became the head doctor at a camp (Colonia Santa Rosa) for Polish refugees in León, Guanajuato, and where Beata Babad started a writing career in the Communist party. In the third interview, Peter Gordon narrates his father’s emigration and permanent settlement in the United States in Washington, D.C. Peter Gordon is Professor in the Cognitive Psychology Program within the Department of Psychology and Neuroscience at UNC Chapel Hill. The interview was conducted in Davie Hall on the UNC campus by Hannah Gill, Associate Director of the Institute for the Study of the Americas and Principal Investigator of the New Roots/Nuevas Raíces Oral Histories.
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-12-07
Publisher
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/28612">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
Format
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R0986_Audio.mp3
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/ce52c1a1ddf3927c6e87ca30a8020e85.pdf
a339c8974dc3fa4dc8d2134dc8c36322
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/a41b042e6a0fec31c858feb14bbcb0e6.mp3
6d10c55725fc6b94ce154421179efaf5
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0987
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
2019-01-25
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Gordon, Peter.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Professors
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1957
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Male
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Washington, D.C.
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Chapel Hill -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
NA
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Gill, Hannah.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
This oral history interview is the third in a three-part series with Peter Gordon in Chapel Hill, North Carolina on 25 January 2019. Peter Gordon narrates the WWII migration story of his father, Samuel Chrabolowski Gordon (“Sam Gordon”), who was born to a Jewish family in Poland. Sam Gordon escaped Nazi persecution by migrating to Mexico, where he served as the doctor of a refugee camp in León, Guanajuato for three years before eventually settling in the United States. In the first interview, Peter Gordon begins his father’s story in the 1930s when Sam Gordon served in the International Brigades in the Spanish Civil War and attended medical school in Montpellier, France. In 1942, as Nazi occupation threatened the lives of Jews living in France, Sam Gordon, his wife Beata Babad, and son Andre Chrabolowski escaped from Marseille by boat after securing an entrance visa to Mexico. The second interview covers Sam Gordon’s experiences in Mexico from 1943 through the summer of 1946, where he became the head doctor at a camp (Colonia Santa Rosa) for Polish refugees in León, Guanajuato, and where Beata Babad started a writing career in the Communist party. In this third interview, Peter Gordon narrates his father’s emigration and permanent settlement in the United States in Washington, D.C. Peter Gordon is Professor in the Cognitive Psychology Program within the Department of Psychology and Neuroscience at UNC Chapel Hill. The interview was conducted in Davie Hall on the UNC campus by Hannah Gill, Associate Director of the Institute for the Study of the Americas and Principal Investigator of the New Roots/Nuevas Raíces Oral Histories.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Peter Gordon, 25 January 2019, R-0987, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/28609
En: Themes
Es: Temas
War and violence; Migratory Experience; Racism and discrimination; Religion; Health
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Hannah Gill: It is January 25, 2019. This is Hannah Gill here with Peter Gordon. Thank you, Peter. We are going to continue part three of Peter's oral history. All right, Peter would you like to get started? I think we left off right as your father was about to leave the Santa Rosa colony.
Peter Gordon: [00:00:32] Ok. I think that I left off saying that the Santa Rosa colony had it served its purpose, but what to do in the end was not clear. That was a very hard time. The original intention of the Mexican government in providing refuge to the Poles was that they would leave Mexico after World War II was over and presumably, return to Poland. Of course, Poland fell within the Soviet's sphere of influence and the Poles at Santa Rosa had been horribly treated by the Soviets, and they, for the most part, were not willing to return to Poland. The Mexican government recognized the new communist government in Poland in summer of 1945, close to a year and a half before the colony was really completely dissolved. Eventually the Mexican government decided they would not forcibly repatriate the Poles to Poland. They could stay in Mexico as legal residents or go wherever they wished. I believe I said that around fifty returned to Poland but the rest came to the United States, remained in Mexico, or some young women went to Canada to marry Poles in Canada with whom they had corresponded.
It is notable that the Mexican government had changed. Cárdenas had been a very ardent socialist. Ávila Camacho, who was president at the time that the decision was made, was more conservative, but he balanced the treatment of people in a humane way. In particular, the Polish legation in Mexico had been representatives of the Polish government in exile. They were basically stuck as individuals. They were not able or willing to go back to Poland. They were living in Mexico, and it wasn't clear who would take them. The Mexican government said they could stay too. That was a humane act.
My father went to the United States. There's a document that says that relatives of his in DC, where he ultimately ended up, had a men's haberdashery business and they guaranteed his subsistence. On May 21st, in 1946, my father entered the United States at the port of Laredo, Texas, taking with him all of his worldly possessions, including these documents, on a Greyhound bus from León to Chicago. He went to Chicago because his mother's family was there and he had been in some touch with them. His records include a certificate indicating that he had registered for the selective service. It is dated May 28th of '46, when he was just seven days in the country. Clearly, that was an issue that men were expected to be registered for the draft, even if they weren't citizens. There are selective service records up to 1952 at which point he was still classified as 1A, even though he was forty years old. In Chicago he visited his mother's family for a while. Then he traveled to New York to visit other family members, to get a job and to try to become certified as a doctor in the US. He arrived in New York on the train at Penn Station. As the family story goes, he needed a job so he bought the New York Times. He could not speak English at that point but he could read it. He found an ad for a doctor at the Hebrew Home for the Aged. They wanted a doctor that spoke both Spanish and Yiddish. They had both Ashkenazi Jews, Jews from Eastern Europe who spoke Yiddish, and Spanish Jews, well Sephardic Jews who spoke Spanish. They needed a doctor who spoke both. The story goes on that he called them and they started to explain how to get to where they were. And then they said, “no just stay where you are, we'll come get you.” So he lived in New York and he worked at the Hebrew Home for the Aged. He could not practice medicine yet, but there's a certificate that says he was authorized to issue death certificates and things like that. No one was too concerned about it. He got his medical degree from Montpellier recognized in the United States. He also began his training in Psychiatry. He had completed his internship, or he had done an internship in Nimes in France, but he had been practicing medicine probably without being fully trained as a specialist.
There are some things about that time that are notable. First of all, his family was all killed except for his sister Masha. Masha had been in medical school in France, as well. She was at the University of Paris.
She had married a French man, which probably gave her some degree of protection. She escaped occupied France by climbing over the Pyrenees into Spain. Spain was politically repressive but was somewhat accepting of humanitarian refugees and did not simply reject Jews. From Spain she went to Casablanca, from Casablanca she went to Algeria. She spent a long time in Algeria and then returned to Paris.
There is a translation, and I don’t know where the original is, of a letter that my father got in April of 1947 from what I gather is one of the few survivors from his city, Bielsk, in Poland. This is my father's handwriting "As a memento in order not to forget your beloved father, Hilke. May he rest in peace. He was murdered in 1942 at the hand of the German Hitler bandits.” The memento was a photograph of the volunteer fire department in Bielsk. I'm not sure which one is my grandfather. It looks like around the most mundane, ordinary, civic activity that you could perform. At that point, this was probably in the teens or the twenties that he was, simply accepted in that town, and probably there was not a Jewish and a non-Jewish volunteer fire brigade. They were dressed up for the fire brigade.
Hannah: What is that arrow?
Peter: [00:12:21] Oh, that must be my grandfather, yes. The wording of the letter is interesting to me because it refers to the German Hitler bandits. It seems to me that people are most vulnerable when either government is essentially criminal or when the government can’t do anything about criminals. So the German government, when they went outside of Germany, and in many respects inside of Germany, simply operated as bandits. They were not restrained by any notion of property, any notion of needing to treat anyone with any decency. I think that is really what causes people to be refugees if there's no recourse against banditry. That to me is a telling aspect of this situation, of particularly the Central American migrants now, and some Mexican migrants who really are faced with banditry.
My father did travel back to Mexico. There's documentation that he visited Mexico in '47, a year after he had come to the United States. Presumably, he went there to visit his son, Andre. That is evidence that he had a strong connection to Mexico. In 1950 and 1951, he had correspondence with people in Mexico about whether he would be permitted to come back to Mexico. He has a letter here from a lawyer in Mexico City with whom he had spoken to previously. It begins, "Muy estimado Señor" (Very dear sir), "Me recuerdo perfectamente de usted y sus asuntos" (I recall you and your issues perfectly). So, he wasn't the typical case. He was memorable even in that era when many people had been displaced and had remarkable stories. The lawyer then describes what he would need to do to try regain admittance to Mexico in a permanent way and to be naturalized in Mexico. It would be expensive and it wasn’t guaranteed, but the lawyer seems to think that it could be done. Other letters are from a friend of his from Zacapuaxtla, Benjamin Gúzman. It includes some fond remembrances of times together, but talks about what it would take for my father to return to Mexico and be able to stay there on a permanent basis. I'm not sure how all that got resolved and why he didn't go back to Mexico, but at least a part of the reason is that in 1950 his first wife, his divorced wife, Beata, joined the party and returned to Poland. She took their son, Andre, with her, of course. That certainly took away one reason --- the presence of his son -- for wanting to return to Mexico.
In around 1950, he moved from New York to a suburb in Baltimore, Catonsville, Maryland. He worked at Spring Grove State Hospital, continuing his training, I presume. That was a famous, or notorious, mental hospital. They were notorious because one of the doctors there was a specialist in lobotomies and he did them quite freely. I don't think my father had much to do with that. He was not that kind of psychiatrist.
That's where my father met my mother. She was from Catonsville and had gone to college, majored in English, and then had gotten some training as a psychiatric social worker and worked at the hospital. At some point, they moved to the District.
In 1953, my father was naturalized as a US citizen. My mother says that if he had not been accepted as a US citizen, he would not have stayed in the United States. He wasn't going to stay in a country where he wasn't a citizen. Subsequently, they were married, in 1954. They, I don't know if it was their honeymoon, but they went to Mexico after that. I have some documents that relate to furniture and paintings that they bought in Mexico. These are them. A receipt to Doctor Samuel C. Gordon for paintings in August of 1954. The various shipping places. There are also customs documents. The paintings were primitives in oil. I still have most of them. Not all of them. They were in my parent's house. Also the furniture.
Hannah: It looks like they bought a lot of furniture and that's what you grew up in a house with, this Mexican furniture.
Peter: Yes, yes. It's mid-century modern. It's the real deal. They presumably bought it because it was relatively inexpensive. As anyone, starting out knows furniture is expensive. I don't know when or where my father got it, but he had a drawing by David Siqueiros, a signed lithograph. Siqueiros was one of the great painters in Mexico of that era. Along with Diego Rivera, he was a muralist but he also did a series of lithographs of a mad dog and my father had one. Siqueiros was from Irapuato. Unfortunately, my brother invoked his older brother privileges claimed the lithograph. We found out later that our children were terrified of the mad dog upstairs in their grandmother's house. Siqueiros is notable because he was forced to leave Mexico for a while because he tried to kill Trotsky. He was doing that at the behest of the Stalinists. He didn't have much use for Trotsky. I don't know if having the Siqueiros drawing was an ideological statement by my father [inaudible 00:24:26]. Siqueiros failed to kill Trotsky because he and his conspirators were simply too drunk, at least according to the recent biopic. He was forced to leave Mexico for a while but they took him back.
My father and mother moved to Washington, D.C. My brother was born in March of 1956, I was born in August of 1957. My father worked very hard. I think he was making up for lost time. I did have the sense that he was looking to make life as good as possible for himself and for his family. He had a private practice, with his office in our house. It had its own entrance into an aboveground part of what was attached to the basement. My father was very European. I do recall that frequently my mother and father would eat dinner in the dining room after my brother and I had eaten dinner in the kitchen. We would maybe go in to see them at the end of dinner. That was the way he thought it should be done. He was also very affectionate. You can see in the pictures of Santa Rosa that he's often holding a child. He was very affectionate with me. He occasionally had a temper. I think that was some disagreement with my mother or he just couldn't really control his temper at times. My mother firmly believed that children should do whatever they wanted to and should not have their spirits contained. I think my father agreed with that in principle but sometimes couldn't act that way.
My father died when I was 8. So I have some memories of him, but not that many. They're sort of random. As a psychologist, I don't even necessarily believe they're all that valid, but they're what I have. I do recall being a little bit embarrassed, feeling like I didn't fit in because my father didn't fit in. While I grew up in a fairly sophisticated area, and a fairly Jewish area, my father did not do things like teach me how to throw a baseball. He was also older than the other children's fathers. I think that kids want to fit in, and I felt that. I also knew his story in rough outline and was proud of it, as much as I could be, as much as I could understand the story. My father and mother had a conventional relationship for that time. My mother stopped working after she married my father and she had my brother and me. My mother had grown up in Catonsville, but her family was from the Eastern shore of Maryland, from Salisbury. My mother had grown up going to the beach. My mother took my father to the beach and they bought some property in the middle of what was then nowhere. The Bay Bridge had been announced, but it hadn't been built yet. They built a little cottage, and by little cottage, I mean little cottage. Nothing like the McMansions you find at the beach today. My mother would take my brother and me to the beach every summer. We would spend the whole summer at the beach and my father would come down on the weekends. A lot of my memories of him do come from the beach. Also, I think that I've seen more pictures probably, of him at the beach, which may be part of why I remember it. I remember him giving us anatomy lessons on the crab. What do crabs have? Two penises. My father would like to point that out.
I grew up knowing that, and I pointed it out to my children. I do recall one time we went out sailing on the bay with my mother and some of her friends. My father did not go. They had a terrible time handling the boat, the adults did. I was a small child. Eventually, my father had to come out in a motor boat to tow us in on the sailboat. I recall that my father brought a ham sandwich for me because he assumed that I would be hungry. He probably could have fairly assumed that the adults would be hungry too but he didn't bring them anything. That’s a memory that I have.
My father had a heart attack at the beach. Not fatal. I don't remember exactly when it was but probably a few months before he died. Then I recall that summer, we didn’t spend at the beach but stayed in DC with him. My mother took care of him. He did work some but not much. In September of '65, when he was 54 years old, we heard him fall. I distinctly remember being in the kitchen in the house. My mother was getting us ready to go to school. I was eight and my brother was nine. We heard a loud thump upstairs.
My mother went up to him. My father had had another heart attack that killed him, and had fallen out of bed. There was a doctor who was actually visiting us, a Polish doctor. He tried to resuscitate my father but wasn't able to. I was eight years old. It’s very sad to think about.
Hannah: It's very sad.
Peter: [00:35:44] So that's really all I can say that my father, there are other people who I then met, who are part of this story. [Inaudible 00:35:58] I can talk about my Aunt Masha, who ended up living in Paris, in an apartment, that had ten rooms, including a living room that was two stories high with a glass wall looking out on the avenue. She lived there alone, I don't know what happened to her husband. She had gotten the apartment as part of their divorce. It was rent-controlled. The last time I went there was in the 1980s, it had not been painted since the 1950s. My wife and I had the good fortune of visiting Paris over Christmas in the coldest period in Paris in my lifetime. We went to visit Masha and she only had the heat turned on in two tiny rooms in this huge apartment. She referred to the two-story glass-walled living room as the "big fridge". She was a difficult person. She was also an interesting and charming person when she wanted to be. There was an indication of this in my father's correspondence before any of this started. His parents were sending him money in France to sustain himself in medical school and in the accompanying note they said “be sure that you know that we sent Masha the same exact amount, so that you can defend yourself” (laughter).
Hannah: Did they see each other again?
Peter: [00:39:01] Yeah, yeah. Well, my father went to Europe, at least once I believe, twice after he was a US citizen. He went to Western Europe but he never went to Poland. He, certainly visited his sister then and they corresponded. She was a really smart person but she clearly had suffered a lot. Her son, she had a son that was born around the same time that my brother Andre was born. He was born in occupied France. [inaudible 00:40:04] He became a doctor also. He was killed in the 1970s in a freak accident on the streets of Paris where a construction site experienced some failure, and a crane fell -- or something fell -- hit him and killed him. That of course did not help Masha. My recollection of Masha is really clearest, well she came to the States a number of times to visit us, but clearest from the 80s, not the 60s. The last family visit to Masha in Paris was in the 90s. By then they had finally pried the apartment away from her and she was in an old folk's home. She was not changed a bit. She found fault with everything that was done for her and fault with the food. And Jan, my wife, said the food was just marvelous. If you have to be in an old folk's home you should be in one in France. She ate every bite of it, even though she complained vehemently about it.
I should finish talking about Masha with a story of when I visited her in '85. She refused to speak English to me. She was a polyglot, like my father was. She spoke quite a bit of English. She refused to speak English to me because I was her nephew and I should speak French. She knew I spoke a little bit of French; it was very hard. She would speak English to my wife, she would not speak English to me. I do remember her making a statement about politics “Tous les américains son comme ça,” “That the Americans just look straight ahead, they don't look left or right, and they miss things cause of that.” Clearly, her opinion. I have perhaps said too much about her oddness. I was one of her few remaining relatives. She was devoted to being my aunt. My brother spent more time in Europe with her. In fact, I think he lived with her for like a month when he was in college. She told me though that she would not feed him until he had practiced French. [Both laughing]Another person of interest is my father's first wife, Beata. She went back to Poland in 1950 and joined the Communist party. She wrote propaganda, according to my mother. She traveled around the world to Latin America. I have evidence of that, correspondence to my father from the early 1960s from Peru where she wrote propaganda for the communist party. She also, according to my mother, traveled to Indochina and wrote propaganda there too. She was of course a polyglot also, but I don't know that she spoke any East Asian languages. In Vietnam, French was a very common language so she presumably, if my mother is correct, wrote the propaganda in French.
My brother, Andre, was ten when his mother returned to Poland. Because she traveled so much, he was raised primarily by a Polish family that he lived with. I have a lot of letters in Polish from that family to my father. I will have them translated, if the handwriting looks legible. I expect that they're mostly mundane details, but they'll be the history of my family. There are a lot of letters from Beata to my father.
Some are handwritten, many are also typed. So I can with a dictionary and with the google translate, make some sense of them. They're mostly about Andre, but they're enough of them that maybe they are about something else too. There are also many letters from Andre. They're handwritten. The first one is in Spanish. And it begins in 1950, "Papacito", because Spanish is presumably his language was at that point.
Then they switch fairly soon to Polish. I don't know if he did spoke any Polish in Mexico or not.
If we go back a little bit, there are receipts for money that my father sent to them for food because in Poland in the 1950s food was not easy to come by. In 1966 or '67, the Poland had gone through a boom and a bust, so the Polish Communist Party to distract attention from its economic failures, expelled the remaining Jews in the Communist Party. Beata was expelled from the party, and expelled from the country. She went to Paris and I don't know exactly why the French accepted her, and accepted many other Poles who were expelled from the Communist party at that time, but at least part of it may have been a feeling of regret over World War II. She lived in Paris, she eventually married a French man. It's interesting to me that this person who lived through such a portion of history, when she was in her late 40s and maybe 50, began to write. I found some things that she's written. She completed three documents in French. This one is the only one the library had.
Hannah: Wow, it's in our library.
Peter: [00:50:54] It's in our library, yeah. It appears to be a thesis, hold on, I'm not positive. It's from the University of Paris and it's about the Chilean government, economic policy in Chile in the period of popular front. The popular front was the term that Soviets used to describe an effort to have all of the more left-wing organizations, even if they weren't communist, align to reject fascism. International participation in the Spanish Civil War was a part of the popular front resistance in Europe and the popular front apparently also existed in South America. I took the document out of the library not intending to read it but mostly just to try to figure out when she was in Chile. She says she was there around 1960 but that she is writing her analysis from documentary sources. It's about the economic reforms that happened in Chile, in the 30s and 40s and 50s. She wrote a similar publication about Peru. I have correspondence from her to my father about Andre that is postmarked from Peru.
Then there's a later book that talks a little bit about the Allende government in Chile. Salvador Allende was the president, or the prime minister of Chile, who died in the 1970s during a coup d’état. The Pinochet government took over Chile and killed Allende or he committed suicide; he was not going to live anyway. The CIA was complicit in the coup. I recall that after Allende had been killed, a former minister from Allende's government, Orlando Letelier, and a US citizen were killed in a car bombing in Sheridan Square, in Sheridan Circle in Washington, D.C. The location is part way between where I grew up and Georgetown, where I went to college. I drove by that place many times.
After she got these books out of her system, Beata turned to translating Mexican and Latin American literature into Polish. She translated Gabriel García Márquez' No One Writes to the Colonel to Polish. She translated a book by Elena Poniatowska called Here's to you Jesusa, which is an oral history of a Mexican woman who had quite a life. She fought in the Mexican Revolution and just described what it's like to be a woman in that circumstance. I don't know whether Beata knew Poniatowska, but she was a Pole, she is a Pole, and she lived in Mexico. Her family escaped Europe to Mexico before World War II started and she's a woman author. I certainly regret not having asked Beata about her life. I met her on a number of occasions, and spent some time with her when I was a teenager, but didn't realize until too late that she would have many things to say about those days.
When his mother left Poland, my brother, Andre, tried to get permission from the United States. This was after my father had died. At this point the law had changed and the US had family-based immigration.
Hannah: Yep.
Peter: [00:57:55] So, my mother hired a lawyer to make the case that Andre was, my brother, but it did not work. They said that the relationship was too distant. That they would not let him immigrate. He was basically stuck in Poland. His education had all been in Poland. He had a law degree. That's not a very easily transferrable degree, unlike being a doctor as my mother would tell me. I could have been have been a doctor, but I only got a PhD. Looking through his documents makes me appreciate that my father's ability to survive was because he had a skill that was transferrable. After his mother left, Andre was in Poland and decided that he would convert to Catholicism. He married a Polish woman. They had two children, Eva and Agnieszka. They visited us on more than one occasion and I visited them. Andre and his wife, Yoanna, were divorced at some point and estranged a bit. The daughters have done very well. The mother continues to live. The daughters, one of them, works for an organization that tries to facilitate rapprochement or understanding between Poles of Jewish ancestry, and Poles of Catholic ancestry. But Poland is experiencing a lot of turmoil now. I did go to Poland twice. The first time was in 1985. This was right after the Solidarity labor movement had been crushed. Solidarity was the Polish movement that looked for liberalization of the communist economy. They had been repressed somewhat violently by the Polish government. It was a fairly dark time.
I remember a few things about that trip. I recall that I got to Poland in the summer and Yoanna and the girls were at the beach, so Andre wanted me to visit them at Gdańsk on the Baltic. They wanted me to see them. He wanted me to have a sleeping berth because he didn't want to take up a whole day taking the train to Gdańsk and didn't want me to have sit up all night in the car. The next morning after I had gotten to Poland the night before, we got up and he said ‘we've got to go get you a train ticket.’ So we go to the train station, or the travel agency, and there's a long line. It was almost like a bad movie, Andre says to me, 'Stand in the line, I'll go see what it's for.' He goes up, he comes back and says it's not this line. We go to stand in another line which is fortunately shorter. We're standing in the line seemingly, forever. There's a little plaque that Andre explains to me, that says they are going to take a break for fifteen minutes at eleven o'clock or something. I'm just timing it and thinking, you know, my God we're not going to make it, we're going to stand there another fifteen minutes while they go take a break! Miraculously, we got there in time. Of course, they're speaking Polish so I don't understand it but Andre is clearly not getting what he wants. He turns and explains this to me and says, they don't have any first-class tickets in the men's sleeping department, so he says, 'Okay, I've worked it out, I've gotten you a first-class ticket in the women's sleeping department,' and that was it.
We were walking around all day, showing me Warsaw. He's was talking to me about history, and he asks me what I think about Reagan, because Reagan was president then. I start telling him my opinion that Reagan's not a good president. He lets me say around a sentence and a half and he says, 'Reagan is great!' and that's because, in the view of the Poles, he stood up to the Soviets. To me it was all phony, but it meant a lot to them. We go around and we're looking at various things, and I will say that I felt no sense of roots whatsoever. There was a monument to a Polish priest who had been killed by the government because he had been part of Solidarity. And it was the most lovingly cared for, wonderful flowers everywhere. The man had died, he deserved the tribute. We went from there to see the memorial to the Warsaw ghetto uprising where the Jews had all been killed, the final Jews of Warsaw. There were weeds growing through the pavement, it was neglected. The people who remember that part of things were not there anymore.
Hannah: Yeah, right.
Peter: [01:07:09] I didn't feel resentment, I just felt nothing. So we get to the train station at night and Andre finally says to me 'So you've been sort of worried about this.' And of course I had been terrified.
He says to me, 'don't worry, we'll speak to the conductor, we'll speak to the hand of the conductor.' He says to me, 'Do you have a zloty note?' Zloty is the currency. You're forced to exchange hard currency back then, for zlotys, which were worthless outside of Poland. That's a way that the government of gets some money. So I hand him my 10,000 zloty note or whatever. He folds it up into little ball and he puts it in his hand. He is right there when the first-class men's car arrives and the conductor comes out. I see him talking to the conductor and I see their hands next to each other [laughing]. He hands this money to him, and then he says to me, 'Peter, this gentleman speaks perfect English. He'll take care of you, there's plenty of room in the men's car.' I shared a sleeping compartment with one upper and one lower berth, a two person compartment. The other person was clearly a party member. A member of the nomenklatura. He wasn't too happy to see me, but I had a ticket. The train car was like half-empty, they weren't selling those tickets to riff-raff. They were for the special people, and Andre knew that. He knew he could get me on the train. He was entitled to have a little fun with me, because my life really was a lot easier than his, much, much easier. I went to a town on the beach near Gdańsk and met Eva and Agnieszka. I had a very pleasurable time at the beach for a day or so. I did take the train back during the day to Warsaw. I can say that visiting Communist Poland made me reject any sentiments I had towards socialism. I mean I think it’s a matter of degree but complete state control of the economy meant that nothing was attractive, nothing was good, nothing, nothing, nothing. I kept on looking around and saying well I've seen places in the United States that are as unattractive as that is but it wasn't everything.
Hannah: Like in what way? Aesthetically?
Peter: [01:11:11] Well yes, aesthetically, that's really how to put it. Public places were not at all attractive, were not at all in any way nice. If you went inside people's homes, which I did some, they kept their homes well, but the public places, the public spaces, the stores, the train stations, everything was just so grim, so unappealing, so awful. Of course, Warsaw was destroyed during World War II, it was literally flattened. Then the poor country was rebuilt in Stalinist prefab. Everything was dreadful. I will say also that the economic comparison was not actually that unfavorable. I was, at that time, in my first job. I was an assistant professor at Harvard. I had a one-bedroom apartment in Cambridge, which I was lucky to have. Andre had a two-bedroom apartment, he had two children, but his apartment was the same size as mine. It was in fact as nice as mine. His car was, well I didn't have a car, he had a car. But the general atmosphere of Poland was just dreadful and I didn't really like learning that about myself. I'm exaggerating, I'm still one of those vaguely socialist professors, but I didn't like learning how much the idea that things should be relatively attractive and well-cared for meant to me. I did go back to Poland after '91, after communism had end. I do recall that one thing that was very different was that the food was much better. And the food had been, well I won't go there. The food was much better; I remember being taken to a pizza restaurant. Pizza would not have been something you would have eaten in the communist Poland. I was taken to a pizza restaurant and it was quite good. On walking out of the pizza restaurant there was an alley next to it and someone had spray-painted graffiti that said 'Fuck Pizza.' That was an indication that there was tremendous inequality. Poland has been successful economically but that inequality is probably a source of tension.
As I think about what I'm trying to learn and I think about all the documents I have, some of which I have been able to translate, some of which I haven't. Most of it I haven't. I think about the world today, I think about the struggles of migrants, about how lucky my life has been. I wasn't lucky to lose my father, but in terms of material success, in terms of opportunity, in terms of self-expression, I have been a very lucky person. It makes me aware of just how much of the world is not lucky and how much the current situation of migration, of the world, and particularly the United States, is really so tragic and so ungenerous. My father and his sister survived because of pluck and luck -- and the goodwill of many other people.
Without the goodwill of the Mexican government my father would not have survived. Without the goodwill of the Algerians, which were a colony but there must have been a lot of local influence, my aunt would not have survived. Without the goodwill of the Iranians, the Polish refugees in Santa Rosa would not have survived. That was not that long ago. It's within one generation. It just makes me feel that we need to be aware of how fragile our circumstances are and we need to be more generous to people who are facing tremendous hardship.
Hannah: Thank you. Thank you, Peter.
END OF TAPE [01:18:50]
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Profesores
Es: Género de entrevistado
Hombre
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Temas
Guerra y violencia; Experiencia migratoria; Racismo y discriminación; Religión; Salud
Es: Transcripción
Hannah Gill: It is January 25, 2019. This is Hannah Gill here with Peter Gordon. Thank you, Peter. We are going to continue part three of Peter's oral history. All right, Peter would you like to get started? I think we left off right as your father was about to leave the Santa Rosa colony.
Peter Gordon: [00:00:32] Ok. I think that I left off saying that the Santa Rosa colony had it served its purpose, but what to do in the end was not clear. That was a very hard time. The original intention of the Mexican government in providing refuge to the Poles was that they would leave Mexico after World War II was over and presumably, return to Poland. Of course, Poland fell within the Soviet's sphere of influence and the Poles at Santa Rosa had been horribly treated by the Soviets, and they, for the most part, were not willing to return to Poland. The Mexican government recognized the new communist government in Poland in summer of 1945, close to a year and a half before the colony was really completely dissolved. Eventually the Mexican government decided they would not forcibly repatriate the Poles to Poland. They could stay in Mexico as legal residents or go wherever they wished. I believe I said that around fifty returned to Poland but the rest came to the United States, remained in Mexico, or some young women went to Canada to marry Poles in Canada with whom they had corresponded.
It is notable that the Mexican government had changed. Cárdenas had been a very ardent socialist. Ávila Camacho, who was president at the time that the decision was made, was more conservative, but he balanced the treatment of people in a humane way. In particular, the Polish legation in Mexico had been representatives of the Polish government in exile. They were basically stuck as individuals. They were not able or willing to go back to Poland. They were living in Mexico, and it wasn't clear who would take them. The Mexican government said they could stay too. That was a humane act.
My father went to the United States. There's a document that says that relatives of his in DC, where he ultimately ended up, had a men's haberdashery business and they guaranteed his subsistence. On May 21st, in 1946, my father entered the United States at the port of Laredo, Texas, taking with him all of his worldly possessions, including these documents, on a Greyhound bus from León to Chicago. He went to Chicago because his mother's family was there and he had been in some touch with them. His records include a certificate indicating that he had registered for the selective service. It is dated May 28th of '46, when he was just seven days in the country. Clearly, that was an issue that men were expected to be registered for the draft, even if they weren't citizens. There are selective service records up to 1952 at which point he was still classified as 1A, even though he was forty years old. In Chicago he visited his mother's family for a while. Then he traveled to New York to visit other family members, to get a job and to try to become certified as a doctor in the US. He arrived in New York on the train at Penn Station. As the family story goes, he needed a job so he bought the New York Times. He could not speak English at that point but he could read it. He found an ad for a doctor at the Hebrew Home for the Aged. They wanted a doctor that spoke both Spanish and Yiddish. They had both Ashkenazi Jews, Jews from Eastern Europe who spoke Yiddish, and Spanish Jews, well Sephardic Jews who spoke Spanish. They needed a doctor who spoke both. The story goes on that he called them and they started to explain how to get to where they were. And then they said, “no just stay where you are, we'll come get you.” So he lived in New York and he worked at the Hebrew Home for the Aged. He could not practice medicine yet, but there's a certificate that says he was authorized to issue death certificates and things like that. No one was too concerned about it. He got his medical degree from Montpellier recognized in the United States. He also began his training in Psychiatry. He had completed his internship, or he had done an internship in Nimes in France, but he had been practicing medicine probably without being fully trained as a specialist.
There are some things about that time that are notable. First of all, his family was all killed except for his sister Masha. Masha had been in medical school in France, as well. She was at the University of Paris.
She had married a French man, which probably gave her some degree of protection. She escaped occupied France by climbing over the Pyrenees into Spain. Spain was politically repressive but was somewhat accepting of humanitarian refugees and did not simply reject Jews. From Spain she went to Casablanca, from Casablanca she went to Algeria. She spent a long time in Algeria and then returned to Paris.
There is a translation, and I don’t know where the original is, of a letter that my father got in April of 1947 from what I gather is one of the few survivors from his city, Bielsk, in Poland. This is my father's handwriting "As a memento in order not to forget your beloved father, Hilke. May he rest in peace. He was murdered in 1942 at the hand of the German Hitler bandits.” The memento was a photograph of the volunteer fire department in Bielsk. I'm not sure which one is my grandfather. It looks like around the most mundane, ordinary, civic activity that you could perform. At that point, this was probably in the teens or the twenties that he was, simply accepted in that town, and probably there was not a Jewish and a non-Jewish volunteer fire brigade. They were dressed up for the fire brigade.
Hannah: What is that arrow?
Peter: [00:12:21] Oh, that must be my grandfather, yes. The wording of the letter is interesting to me because it refers to the German Hitler bandits. It seems to me that people are most vulnerable when either government is essentially criminal or when the government can’t do anything about criminals. So the German government, when they went outside of Germany, and in many respects inside of Germany, simply operated as bandits. They were not restrained by any notion of property, any notion of needing to treat anyone with any decency. I think that is really what causes people to be refugees if there's no recourse against banditry. That to me is a telling aspect of this situation, of particularly the Central American migrants now, and some Mexican migrants who really are faced with banditry.
My father did travel back to Mexico. There's documentation that he visited Mexico in '47, a year after he had come to the United States. Presumably, he went there to visit his son, Andre. That is evidence that he had a strong connection to Mexico. In 1950 and 1951, he had correspondence with people in Mexico about whether he would be permitted to come back to Mexico. He has a letter here from a lawyer in Mexico City with whom he had spoken to previously. It begins, "Muy estimado Señor" (Very dear sir), "Me recuerdo perfectamente de usted y sus asuntos" (I recall you and your issues perfectly). So, he wasn't the typical case. He was memorable even in that era when many people had been displaced and had remarkable stories. The lawyer then describes what he would need to do to try regain admittance to Mexico in a permanent way and to be naturalized in Mexico. It would be expensive and it wasn’t guaranteed, but the lawyer seems to think that it could be done. Other letters are from a friend of his from Zacapuaxtla, Benjamin Gúzman. It includes some fond remembrances of times together, but talks about what it would take for my father to return to Mexico and be able to stay there on a permanent basis. I'm not sure how all that got resolved and why he didn't go back to Mexico, but at least a part of the reason is that in 1950 his first wife, his divorced wife, Beata, joined the party and returned to Poland. She took their son, Andre, with her, of course. That certainly took away one reason --- the presence of his son -- for wanting to return to Mexico.
In around 1950, he moved from New York to a suburb in Baltimore, Catonsville, Maryland. He worked at Spring Grove State Hospital, continuing his training, I presume. That was a famous, or notorious, mental hospital. They were notorious because one of the doctors there was a specialist in lobotomies and he did them quite freely. I don't think my father had much to do with that. He was not that kind of psychiatrist.
That's where my father met my mother. She was from Catonsville and had gone to college, majored in English, and then had gotten some training as a psychiatric social worker and worked at the hospital. At some point, they moved to the District.
In 1953, my father was naturalized as a US citizen. My mother says that if he had not been accepted as a US citizen, he would not have stayed in the United States. He wasn't going to stay in a country where he wasn't a citizen. Subsequently, they were married, in 1954. They, I don't know if it was their honeymoon, but they went to Mexico after that. I have some documents that relate to furniture and paintings that they bought in Mexico. These are them. A receipt to Doctor Samuel C. Gordon for paintings in August of 1954. The various shipping places. There are also customs documents. The paintings were primitives in oil. I still have most of them. Not all of them. They were in my parent's house. Also the furniture.
Hannah: It looks like they bought a lot of furniture and that's what you grew up in a house with, this Mexican furniture.
Peter: Yes, yes. It's mid-century modern. It's the real deal. They presumably bought it because it was relatively inexpensive. As anyone, starting out knows furniture is expensive. I don't know when or where my father got it, but he had a drawing by David Siqueiros, a signed lithograph. Siqueiros was one of the great painters in Mexico of that era. Along with Diego Rivera, he was a muralist but he also did a series of lithographs of a mad dog and my father had one. Siqueiros was from Irapuato. Unfortunately, my brother invoked his older brother privileges claimed the lithograph. We found out later that our children were terrified of the mad dog upstairs in their grandmother's house. Siqueiros is notable because he was forced to leave Mexico for a while because he tried to kill Trotsky. He was doing that at the behest of the Stalinists. He didn't have much use for Trotsky. I don't know if having the Siqueiros drawing was an ideological statement by my father [inaudible 00:24:26]. Siqueiros failed to kill Trotsky because he and his conspirators were simply too drunk, at least according to the recent biopic. He was forced to leave Mexico for a while but they took him back.
My father and mother moved to Washington, D.C. My brother was born in March of 1956, I was born in August of 1957. My father worked very hard. I think he was making up for lost time. I did have the sense that he was looking to make life as good as possible for himself and for his family. He had a private practice, with his office in our house. It had its own entrance into an aboveground part of what was attached to the basement. My father was very European. I do recall that frequently my mother and father would eat dinner in the dining room after my brother and I had eaten dinner in the kitchen. We would maybe go in to see them at the end of dinner. That was the way he thought it should be done. He was also very affectionate. You can see in the pictures of Santa Rosa that he's often holding a child. He was very affectionate with me. He occasionally had a temper. I think that was some disagreement with my mother or he just couldn't really control his temper at times. My mother firmly believed that children should do whatever they wanted to and should not have their spirits contained. I think my father agreed with that in principle but sometimes couldn't act that way.
My father died when I was 8. So I have some memories of him, but not that many. They're sort of random. As a psychologist, I don't even necessarily believe they're all that valid, but they're what I have. I do recall being a little bit embarrassed, feeling like I didn't fit in because my father didn't fit in. While I grew up in a fairly sophisticated area, and a fairly Jewish area, my father did not do things like teach me how to throw a baseball. He was also older than the other children's fathers. I think that kids want to fit in, and I felt that. I also knew his story in rough outline and was proud of it, as much as I could be, as much as I could understand the story. My father and mother had a conventional relationship for that time. My mother stopped working after she married my father and she had my brother and me. My mother had grown up in Catonsville, but her family was from the Eastern shore of Maryland, from Salisbury. My mother had grown up going to the beach. My mother took my father to the beach and they bought some property in the middle of what was then nowhere. The Bay Bridge had been announced, but it hadn't been built yet. They built a little cottage, and by little cottage, I mean little cottage. Nothing like the McMansions you find at the beach today. My mother would take my brother and me to the beach every summer. We would spend the whole summer at the beach and my father would come down on the weekends. A lot of my memories of him do come from the beach. Also, I think that I've seen more pictures probably, of him at the beach, which may be part of why I remember it. I remember him giving us anatomy lessons on the crab. What do crabs have? Two penises. My father would like to point that out.
I grew up knowing that, and I pointed it out to my children. I do recall one time we went out sailing on the bay with my mother and some of her friends. My father did not go. They had a terrible time handling the boat, the adults did. I was a small child. Eventually, my father had to come out in a motor boat to tow us in on the sailboat. I recall that my father brought a ham sandwich for me because he assumed that I would be hungry. He probably could have fairly assumed that the adults would be hungry too but he didn't bring them anything. That’s a memory that I have.
My father had a heart attack at the beach. Not fatal. I don't remember exactly when it was but probably a few months before he died. Then I recall that summer, we didn’t spend at the beach but stayed in DC with him. My mother took care of him. He did work some but not much. In September of '65, when he was 54 years old, we heard him fall. I distinctly remember being in the kitchen in the house. My mother was getting us ready to go to school. I was eight and my brother was nine. We heard a loud thump upstairs.
My mother went up to him. My father had had another heart attack that killed him, and had fallen out of bed. There was a doctor who was actually visiting us, a Polish doctor. He tried to resuscitate my father but wasn't able to. I was eight years old. It’s very sad to think about.
Hannah: It's very sad.
Peter: [00:35:44] So that's really all I can say that my father, there are other people who I then met, who are part of this story. [Inaudible 00:35:58] I can talk about my Aunt Masha, who ended up living in Paris, in an apartment, that had ten rooms, including a living room that was two stories high with a glass wall looking out on the avenue. She lived there alone, I don't know what happened to her husband. She had gotten the apartment as part of their divorce. It was rent-controlled. The last time I went there was in the 1980s, it had not been painted since the 1950s. My wife and I had the good fortune of visiting Paris over Christmas in the coldest period in Paris in my lifetime. We went to visit Masha and she only had the heat turned on in two tiny rooms in this huge apartment. She referred to the two-story glass-walled living room as the "big fridge". She was a difficult person. She was also an interesting and charming person when she wanted to be. There was an indication of this in my father's correspondence before any of this started. His parents were sending him money in France to sustain himself in medical school and in the accompanying note they said “be sure that you know that we sent Masha the same exact amount, so that you can defend yourself” (laughter).
Hannah: Did they see each other again?
Peter: [00:39:01] Yeah, yeah. Well, my father went to Europe, at least once I believe, twice after he was a US citizen. He went to Western Europe but he never went to Poland. He, certainly visited his sister then and they corresponded. She was a really smart person but she clearly had suffered a lot. Her son, she had a son that was born around the same time that my brother Andre was born. He was born in occupied France. [inaudible 00:40:04] He became a doctor also. He was killed in the 1970s in a freak accident on the streets of Paris where a construction site experienced some failure, and a crane fell -- or something fell -- hit him and killed him. That of course did not help Masha. My recollection of Masha is really clearest, well she came to the States a number of times to visit us, but clearest from the 80s, not the 60s. The last family visit to Masha in Paris was in the 90s. By then they had finally pried the apartment away from her and she was in an old folk's home. She was not changed a bit. She found fault with everything that was done for her and fault with the food. And Jan, my wife, said the food was just marvelous. If you have to be in an old folk's home you should be in one in France. She ate every bite of it, even though she complained vehemently about it.
I should finish talking about Masha with a story of when I visited her in '85. She refused to speak English to me. She was a polyglot, like my father was. She spoke quite a bit of English. She refused to speak English to me because I was her nephew and I should speak French. She knew I spoke a little bit of French; it was very hard. She would speak English to my wife, she would not speak English to me. I do remember her making a statement about politics “Tous les américains son comme ça,” “That the Americans just look straight ahead, they don't look left or right, and they miss things cause of that.” Clearly, her opinion. I have perhaps said too much about her oddness. I was one of her few remaining relatives. She was devoted to being my aunt. My brother spent more time in Europe with her. In fact, I think he lived with her for like a month when he was in college. She told me though that she would not feed him until he had practiced French. [Both laughing]Another person of interest is my father's first wife, Beata. She went back to Poland in 1950 and joined the Communist party. She wrote propaganda, according to my mother. She traveled around the world to Latin America. I have evidence of that, correspondence to my father from the early 1960s from Peru where she wrote propaganda for the communist party. She also, according to my mother, traveled to Indochina and wrote propaganda there too. She was of course a polyglot also, but I don't know that she spoke any East Asian languages. In Vietnam, French was a very common language so she presumably, if my mother is correct, wrote the propaganda in French.
My brother, Andre, was ten when his mother returned to Poland. Because she traveled so much, he was raised primarily by a Polish family that he lived with. I have a lot of letters in Polish from that family to my father. I will have them translated, if the handwriting looks legible. I expect that they're mostly mundane details, but they'll be the history of my family. There are a lot of letters from Beata to my father.
Some are handwritten, many are also typed. So I can with a dictionary and with the google translate, make some sense of them. They're mostly about Andre, but they're enough of them that maybe they are about something else too. There are also many letters from Andre. They're handwritten. The first one is in Spanish. And it begins in 1950, "Papacito", because Spanish is presumably his language was at that point.
Then they switch fairly soon to Polish. I don't know if he did spoke any Polish in Mexico or not.
If we go back a little bit, there are receipts for money that my father sent to them for food because in Poland in the 1950s food was not easy to come by. In 1966 or '67, the Poland had gone through a boom and a bust, so the Polish Communist Party to distract attention from its economic failures, expelled the remaining Jews in the Communist Party. Beata was expelled from the party, and expelled from the country. She went to Paris and I don't know exactly why the French accepted her, and accepted many other Poles who were expelled from the Communist party at that time, but at least part of it may have been a feeling of regret over World War II. She lived in Paris, she eventually married a French man. It's interesting to me that this person who lived through such a portion of history, when she was in her late 40s and maybe 50, began to write. I found some things that she's written. She completed three documents in French. This one is the only one the library had.
Hannah: Wow, it's in our library.
Peter: [00:50:54] It's in our library, yeah. It appears to be a thesis, hold on, I'm not positive. It's from the University of Paris and it's about the Chilean government, economic policy in Chile in the period of popular front. The popular front was the term that Soviets used to describe an effort to have all of the more left-wing organizations, even if they weren't communist, align to reject fascism. International participation in the Spanish Civil War was a part of the popular front resistance in Europe and the popular front apparently also existed in South America. I took the document out of the library not intending to read it but mostly just to try to figure out when she was in Chile. She says she was there around 1960 but that she is writing her analysis from documentary sources. It's about the economic reforms that happened in Chile, in the 30s and 40s and 50s. She wrote a similar publication about Peru. I have correspondence from her to my father about Andre that is postmarked from Peru.
Then there's a later book that talks a little bit about the Allende government in Chile. Salvador Allende was the president, or the prime minister of Chile, who died in the 1970s during a coup d’état. The Pinochet government took over Chile and killed Allende or he committed suicide; he was not going to live anyway. The CIA was complicit in the coup. I recall that after Allende had been killed, a former minister from Allende's government, Orlando Letelier, and a US citizen were killed in a car bombing in Sheridan Square, in Sheridan Circle in Washington, D.C. The location is part way between where I grew up and Georgetown, where I went to college. I drove by that place many times.
After she got these books out of her system, Beata turned to translating Mexican and Latin American literature into Polish. She translated Gabriel García Márquez' No One Writes to the Colonel to Polish. She translated a book by Elena Poniatowska called Here's to you Jesusa, which is an oral history of a Mexican woman who had quite a life. She fought in the Mexican Revolution and just described what it's like to be a woman in that circumstance. I don't know whether Beata knew Poniatowska, but she was a Pole, she is a Pole, and she lived in Mexico. Her family escaped Europe to Mexico before World War II started and she's a woman author. I certainly regret not having asked Beata about her life. I met her on a number of occasions, and spent some time with her when I was a teenager, but didn't realize until too late that she would have many things to say about those days.
When his mother left Poland, my brother, Andre, tried to get permission from the United States. This was after my father had died. At this point the law had changed and the US had family-based immigration.
Hannah: Yep.
Peter: [00:57:55] So, my mother hired a lawyer to make the case that Andre was, my brother, but it did not work. They said that the relationship was too distant. That they would not let him immigrate. He was basically stuck in Poland. His education had all been in Poland. He had a law degree. That's not a very easily transferrable degree, unlike being a doctor as my mother would tell me. I could have been have been a doctor, but I only got a PhD. Looking through his documents makes me appreciate that my father's ability to survive was because he had a skill that was transferrable. After his mother left, Andre was in Poland and decided that he would convert to Catholicism. He married a Polish woman. They had two children, Eva and Agnieszka. They visited us on more than one occasion and I visited them. Andre and his wife, Yoanna, were divorced at some point and estranged a bit. The daughters have done very well. The mother continues to live. The daughters, one of them, works for an organization that tries to facilitate rapprochement or understanding between Poles of Jewish ancestry, and Poles of Catholic ancestry. But Poland is experiencing a lot of turmoil now. I did go to Poland twice. The first time was in 1985. This was right after the Solidarity labor movement had been crushed. Solidarity was the Polish movement that looked for liberalization of the communist economy. They had been repressed somewhat violently by the Polish government. It was a fairly dark time.
I remember a few things about that trip. I recall that I got to Poland in the summer and Yoanna and the girls were at the beach, so Andre wanted me to visit them at Gdańsk on the Baltic. They wanted me to see them. He wanted me to have a sleeping berth because he didn't want to take up a whole day taking the train to Gdańsk and didn't want me to have sit up all night in the car. The next morning after I had gotten to Poland the night before, we got up and he said ‘we've got to go get you a train ticket.’ So we go to the train station, or the travel agency, and there's a long line. It was almost like a bad movie, Andre says to me, 'Stand in the line, I'll go see what it's for.' He goes up, he comes back and says it's not this line. We go to stand in another line which is fortunately shorter. We're standing in the line seemingly, forever. There's a little plaque that Andre explains to me, that says they are going to take a break for fifteen minutes at eleven o'clock or something. I'm just timing it and thinking, you know, my God we're not going to make it, we're going to stand there another fifteen minutes while they go take a break! Miraculously, we got there in time. Of course, they're speaking Polish so I don't understand it but Andre is clearly not getting what he wants. He turns and explains this to me and says, they don't have any first-class tickets in the men's sleeping department, so he says, 'Okay, I've worked it out, I've gotten you a first-class ticket in the women's sleeping department,' and that was it.
We were walking around all day, showing me Warsaw. He's was talking to me about history, and he asks me what I think about Reagan, because Reagan was president then. I start telling him my opinion that Reagan's not a good president. He lets me say around a sentence and a half and he says, 'Reagan is great!' and that's because, in the view of the Poles, he stood up to the Soviets. To me it was all phony, but it meant a lot to them. We go around and we're looking at various things, and I will say that I felt no sense of roots whatsoever. There was a monument to a Polish priest who had been killed by the government because he had been part of Solidarity. And it was the most lovingly cared for, wonderful flowers everywhere. The man had died, he deserved the tribute. We went from there to see the memorial to the Warsaw ghetto uprising where the Jews had all been killed, the final Jews of Warsaw. There were weeds growing through the pavement, it was neglected. The people who remember that part of things were not there anymore.
Hannah: Yeah, right.
Peter: [01:07:09] I didn't feel resentment, I just felt nothing. So we get to the train station at night and Andre finally says to me 'So you've been sort of worried about this.' And of course I had been terrified.
He says to me, 'don't worry, we'll speak to the conductor, we'll speak to the hand of the conductor.' He says to me, 'Do you have a zloty note?' Zloty is the currency. You're forced to exchange hard currency back then, for zlotys, which were worthless outside of Poland. That's a way that the government of gets some money. So I hand him my 10,000 zloty note or whatever. He folds it up into little ball and he puts it in his hand. He is right there when the first-class men's car arrives and the conductor comes out. I see him talking to the conductor and I see their hands next to each other [laughing]. He hands this money to him, and then he says to me, 'Peter, this gentleman speaks perfect English. He'll take care of you, there's plenty of room in the men's car.' I shared a sleeping compartment with one upper and one lower berth, a two person compartment. The other person was clearly a party member. A member of the nomenklatura. He wasn't too happy to see me, but I had a ticket. The train car was like half-empty, they weren't selling those tickets to riff-raff. They were for the special people, and Andre knew that. He knew he could get me on the train. He was entitled to have a little fun with me, because my life really was a lot easier than his, much, much easier. I went to a town on the beach near Gdańsk and met Eva and Agnieszka. I had a very pleasurable time at the beach for a day or so. I did take the train back during the day to Warsaw. I can say that visiting Communist Poland made me reject any sentiments I had towards socialism. I mean I think it’s a matter of degree but complete state control of the economy meant that nothing was attractive, nothing was good, nothing, nothing, nothing. I kept on looking around and saying well I've seen places in the United States that are as unattractive as that is but it wasn't everything.
Hannah: Like in what way? Aesthetically?
Peter: [01:11:11] Well yes, aesthetically, that's really how to put it. Public places were not at all attractive, were not at all in any way nice. If you went inside people's homes, which I did some, they kept their homes well, but the public places, the public spaces, the stores, the train stations, everything was just so grim, so unappealing, so awful. Of course, Warsaw was destroyed during World War II, it was literally flattened. Then the poor country was rebuilt in Stalinist prefab. Everything was dreadful. I will say also that the economic comparison was not actually that unfavorable. I was, at that time, in my first job. I was an assistant professor at Harvard. I had a one-bedroom apartment in Cambridge, which I was lucky to have. Andre had a two-bedroom apartment, he had two children, but his apartment was the same size as mine. It was in fact as nice as mine. His car was, well I didn't have a car, he had a car. But the general atmosphere of Poland was just dreadful and I didn't really like learning that about myself. I'm exaggerating, I'm still one of those vaguely socialist professors, but I didn't like learning how much the idea that things should be relatively attractive and well-cared for meant to me. I did go back to Poland after '91, after communism had end. I do recall that one thing that was very different was that the food was much better. And the food had been, well I won't go there. The food was much better; I remember being taken to a pizza restaurant. Pizza would not have been something you would have eaten in the communist Poland. I was taken to a pizza restaurant and it was quite good. On walking out of the pizza restaurant there was an alley next to it and someone had spray-painted graffiti that said 'Fuck Pizza.' That was an indication that there was tremendous inequality. Poland has been successful economically but that inequality is probably a source of tension.
As I think about what I'm trying to learn and I think about all the documents I have, some of which I have been able to translate, some of which I haven't. Most of it I haven't. I think about the world today, I think about the struggles of migrants, about how lucky my life has been. I wasn't lucky to lose my father, but in terms of material success, in terms of opportunity, in terms of self-expression, I have been a very lucky person. It makes me aware of just how much of the world is not lucky and how much the current situation of migration, of the world, and particularly the United States, is really so tragic and so ungenerous. My father and his sister survived because of pluck and luck -- and the goodwill of many other people.
Without the goodwill of the Mexican government my father would not have survived. Without the goodwill of the Algerians, which were a colony but there must have been a lot of local influence, my aunt would not have survived. Without the goodwill of the Iranians, the Polish refugees in Santa Rosa would not have survived. That was not that long ago. It's within one generation. It just makes me feel that we need to be aware of how fragile our circumstances are and we need to be more generous to people who are facing tremendous hardship.
Hannah: Thank you. Thank you, Peter.
END OF TAPE [01:18:50]
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Es: Resumen
Esta entrevista de historia oral es la tercera de una serie de tres partes con Peter Gordon en Chapel Hill, Carolina del Norte, el 25 enero 2019. Peter Gordon describe la historia de migración de su padre, Samuel Chrabolowski Gordon (“Sam Gordon”), durante la Segunda Guerra Mundial. Sam Chrabolowski Gordon nació en una familia judía en Polonia. Sam Gordon escapó de la persecución nazi al emigrar a México, donde trabajó como médico en un campo de refugiados en León, Guanajuato durante tres años antes de finalmente establecerse en los Estados Unidos. En la primera entrevista, Peter Gordon comienza la historia de su padre en la década de 1930 cuando Sam Gordon sirvió en las Brigadas Internacionales en la Guerra Civil Española y estudió medicina en la Universidad de Montpellier, Francia. En 1942, cuando la ocupación nazi amenazaba la vida de los judíos que vivían en Francia, Sam Gordon, su esposa Beata Babad y su hijo Andre Chrabolowski escaparon de Marsella en barco después de obtener una visa de entrada a México. La segunda entrevista comparte las experiencias de Samuel Gordon en México desde 1943 hasta el verano de 1946, donde fue el médico principal de la Colonia Santa Rosa para refugiados polacos en León, Guanajuato. La segunda entrevista describe como Beata Babad comenzó una carrera como escritora en el movimiento comunista. En la tercera entrevista, Peter Gordon habla de la emigración de su padre a los Estados Unidos a Washington, D.C. Peter Gordon es profesor en el Programa de Psicología Cognitiva dentro del Departamento de Psicología y Neurociencia de la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill (UNC por sus siglas en inglés). La entrevista fue realizada en Davie Hall en el campus de la UNC por Hannah Gill, Sub-Directora del Instituto de Estudios sobre las Américas e Investigadora Principal de las Historias Orales de New Roots / Nuevas Raíces.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Peter Gordon, 25 enero 2019, R-0987, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
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Title
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R-0987 -- Gordon, Peter.
Description
An account of the resource
This oral history interview is the third in a three-part series with Peter Gordon in Chapel Hill, North Carolina on 25 January 2019. Peter Gordon narrates the WWII migration story of his father, Samuel Chrabolowski Gordon (“Sam Gordon”), who was born to a Jewish family in Poland. Sam Gordon escaped Nazi persecution by migrating to Mexico, where he served as the doctor of a refugee camp in León, Guanajuato for three years before eventually settling in the United States. In the first interview, Peter Gordon begins his father’s story in the 1930s when Sam Gordon served in the International Brigades in the Spanish Civil War and attended medical school in Montpellier, France. In 1942, as Nazi occupation threatened the lives of Jews living in France, Sam Gordon, his wife Beata Babad, and son Andre Chrabolowski escaped from Marseille by boat after securing an entrance visa to Mexico. The second interview covers Sam Gordon’s experiences in Mexico from 1943 through the summer of 1946, where he became the head doctor at a camp (Colonia Santa Rosa) for Polish refugees in León, Guanajuato, and where Beata Babad started a writing career in the Communist party. In this third interview, Peter Gordon narrates his father’s emigration and permanent settlement in the United States in Washington, D.C. Peter Gordon is Professor in the Cognitive Psychology Program within the Department of Psychology and Neuroscience at UNC Chapel Hill. The interview was conducted in Davie Hall on the UNC campus by Hannah Gill, Associate Director of the Institute for the Study of the Americas and Principal Investigator of the New Roots/Nuevas Raíces Oral Histories.
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-01-25
Publisher
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/28609">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
Format
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R0987_Audio.mp3
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/3cc20f50cb1ef6ed0107bc55ef25059a.MP3
2bd2f7ca36b0a4b23e4eacbdc60801ba
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/b9d65f767a13ecf9ae9fabbd606d5c78.pdf
efa43edec2281232fab033fa2777af84
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0985
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
2018-10-12
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Gordon, Peter.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Professors
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1957
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Male
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Washington, D.C.
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Chapel Hill -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
NA
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Gill, Hannah.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
This oral history interview is the first in a three-part series with Peter Gordon in Chapel Hill, North Carolina on October 12, 2018. Peter Gordon narrates the WWII migration story of his father, Samuel Chrabolowski Gordon, who was born to a Jewish family in Poland. Sam Gordon escaped Nazi persecution by migrating to Mexico, where he served as the doctor of a refugee camp in León, Guanajuato for three years before eventually settling in the United States. In the first interview, Peter Gordon begins his father’s story in the 1930s when Sam Gordon served in the International Brigades in the Spanish Civil War and attended medical school in Montpellier, France. In 1942, as Nazi occupation threatened the lives of Jews living in France, Sam Gordon, his wife Beata Babad, and son Andre Chrabolowski escaped from Marseille by boat after securing an entrance visa to Mexico. The second interview covers Sam Gordon’s experiences in Mexico from 1942 through the summer of 1946, where he became the head doctor at a camp (Colonia Santa Rosa) for Polish refugees in León, Guanajuato, and where Beata Babad started a writing career in the Communist party. In the third interview, Peter Gordon narrates his father’s emigration and permanent settlement in the United States in Washington, D.C. Peter Gordon is Professor in the Cognitive Psychology Program within the Department of Psychology and Neuroscience at UNC Chapel Hill. The interview was conducted in Davie Hall on the UNC campus by Hannah Gill, Associate Director of the Institute for the Study of the Americas and Principal Investigator of the New Roots/Nuevas Raíces Oral Histories.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Peter Gordon, 12 October 2018, R-0985, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/28606
En: Themes
Es: Temas
War and violence; Migratory Experience; Racism and discrimination; Religion; Health
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Hannah Gill: All right, let’s get started.
Peter Gordon: Okay.
Hannah Gill: Thank you so much Peter for talking to me today. I’m really interested to learn more about this extraordinary story of your father and your own life as well, and how that’s impacted your life.
Peter Gordon: Happy to do it.
Hannah Gill: So, maybe we can just start with what do you know about your father’s migration story that you would like to share.
Peter Gordon: [00:30] Well, I’m mostly interested in telling the story, which involves his time in France, where he was completing medical school, also some time in Spain. Then his migration to Mexico, where he lived for almost four years until the summer of 1946. Then his migration to the US and the circumstances that created the desire and need for those migrations and the circumstances that made it possible. This is something I’ve become focused on as its clear that migration and treatment of refugees is now an extremely important, contentious and serious issue in the United States, in other countries in the western hemisphere as well and in the world in general. It seems to me that there are clear parallels between what happened in Europe in the 1930’s and 40’s and what’s happening now. That’s not a novel observation; others have made it, but it’s something I’ve become very focused on because I knew that there was this history in my own family, where migration and being granted refugee status was absolutely critical to survival. It seems to be important to understand the history in looking at the kinds of attitudes towards policies that exist now and perhaps trying to change them.
Hannah Gill: So, your father was born in Poland and he grew up in Poland. So how did he wind up in medical school in France?
Peter Gordon: [02:35] He was born in Poland in 1911. His father was a butcher and meat wholesaler and probably very successful. My father was the oldest of six children and his parents hadn’t been educated through a university, but they wanted their children to be educated. My father, after finishing high school, went to the University of Warsaw and graduated with a degree in math and from there he left to go to France to go to medical school. Now exactly why he went to France, I’m not certain, but I’ve heard that in part it was because in that period, this would have been around 1932, there were starting to be quotas at Polish universities on how many Jewish students were allowed to enroll, limits on them. So to seek education, many had to go abroad if they could, and I say his father must have been a successful butcher because they had enough resources to send, in fact, three of their children to Western Europe, to study.
Hannah Gill: Were they all in France?
Peter Gordon: [04:05] They were all in France, yes. My father went to France around 1931, he completed a one-year program with a certificate at Montpellier in the sciences and then enrolled in medical school there. He was in medical school, in residence, through part of 1936, and then he left France and went to Spain. He joined the International Brigades, which were fighting in the Spanish Civil War. According to my mother, he did that because it was a way of fighting fascism. The war was seen as a rehearsal for WWII and many people came to support the Spanish Republic against the rebellion by the conservative military that was largely aligned with fascist countries, particularly Italy and Germany, who provided substantial support in that rebellion. My father served in the International Brigades as a medical officer and did that for some time in ’36 (I don’t have the exact date) until the International Brigades were disbanded and left Spain in October of 1938. I have a lot of documents that are related to the end of his service in the International Brigades. Probably they also relate to the difficulty in arranging for the brigade members to get out of Spain. I don’t know when exactly he got out of Spain, but he was in Barcelona after the brigades were disbanded in October, he was certainly was there in November, and he may have been there in December. But ultimately he went back to France. He’d been a medical officer in Spain. He started out as a sub-lieutenant and was promoted to lieutenant at some point. I have the papers on that in 1937. He was clearly capable of practicing as a doctor, but he had not completed all his requirements for his degree in France. At that time, I don’t know about now, medical doctors had to write a thesis, so he returned to Montpellier and competed his thesis, which is about the health service and hygiene service in an infantry battalion in the Spanish War, 1936-1939.
Hannah Gill: Wow.
Peter Gordon: [07:53] My French is not great, but I’ve read a lot of dissertations and it’s not much. Well that’s not fair, my mother said that my father had said that at that point they would take anything [laughs]- - if you had all you medical training, they wanted to give their students degrees and get them out in the world. But, the thesis a first-hand account of some of his experiences, beginning with the fall of ’36 when as he says he was assigned to a group of militias. They were very unorganized to start with and he recounts the degree of disorganization there. Then it became a bit more organized as they realized, the Spanish Republic realized, that simply arming anarchists to try to fight the organized military of the rebelling conservatives wasn’t going to work. They needed more of a standard military organization. The thesis is not very long, it’s all firsthand, there are no references, no citations, and it ends by saying that no one would want to model a modern military medical service after what happened in Spain. But they were doing what they could, given what they had, and that under the circumstances, many people did very brave work and very good work, but it was a very difficult situation. It’s very hard to trace where he was in Spain because the brigades and the battalions all get renamed and talked about in different ways. I’m not a military historian, I’m a lab scientist. I’m used to much better records. I know that he was affiliated with the Garibaldi Brigade, which was an Italian brigade. Exactly why or how, I don’t know. He was also in a French-Belgian brigade, even though he was Polish.
Hannah Gill: Do you know if he would have spoken Spanish or learned Spanish in Spain, before or during?
Peter Gordon: [10:35] That is a good question, and certainly one of the issues for the International Brigades was they had trouble communicating. I know that my father grew up speaking Polish, Russian, Yiddish, and Hebrew. His family was from Eastern Poland and in fact, when he was born in 1911, it was part of Russia. He must have learned some French by the time he went to medical school in France, certainly he wrote his thesis in French. I think it is fair to say he was a gifted polyglot. It’s something that embarrasses me, given my own limitations. How quickly he learned Spanish, I don’t know, but I know that he obviously picked up languages quickly and certainly was fluent in Spanish by the time he was working in Mexico.
Hannah Gill: Well, you certainly have continued this work in language. In a different way, but..
Peter Gordon: [12:00] In a different way, and language, not languages.
Hannah Gill: Well, understanding the neuroscience of language, acquiring language, or speaking?
Peter Gordon: [12:12] Well, acquiring and using language.
Hannah Gill: Yeah.
Peter Gordon: [12:18] I do have a document here that is dated the 5th of January 1938 that I would like to mention. It’s in Spanish and it’s the Order of the Day from the 14th International Brigade. The first item cites my father for bravery in battle. It says that he has served as an example of an antifascist doctor dedicated to the common cause [reads the phrase in Spanish “Es el ejemplo de lo que debe ser un medico antifascista adicto a la causa comun.”
Hannah Gill: He made his way back to France and finished medical school?
Peter Gordon: [13:14] He finished his thesis. He got married to a Polish woman, who was also in France, Beata Babad [he spells the name out]. They had a son, Andre, who was born in June of 1940. I have a fair number of documents from that time. Basically, they were considered refugees. WWII started in August in 1939 with the invasion of Poland. Poland as a country ceased to exist for a while. The Nazis occupied western Poland and through the pact with the Soviet Union, the Soviet Union occupied eastern Poland, including the part of Poland where my father was from, the town of Bielsk-Podlaski [he spells it out]. There was no way, even if they wanted to, to go back to their country of origin. I read a fair bit about this now. There were many people in that situation in France and the French government’s policies towards them changed radically over time, depending on who was in office. There was tremendous anti-refugee feeling in a huge part of the French population, certainly not all, but a huge part. The kinds of attitudes that you read about then are the same kinds of attitudes that you read about today. It was thought that the refugees didn’t fit in socially, they would take jobs from French people, they were “criminals”, and that they were possibly “agents of foreign governments who would undermine the French government”. All those things. Their situation was not easy. My father had to complete an internship at a hospital in Nîmes, still part of southern France. The situation changed a great deal in June of 1940, when the Germans very quickly defeated the French and occupied the northern and western part of France, essentially, everything along the English Channel, between Belgium and the Spanish border, Paris too. That was their front with England. There was a puppet government, the Vichy government, in southern France, which was a very reactionary government that was collaborating with the Nazis. That was the part of France they were in. It was better to be there than in the north, but it was still not very good. Just to go back a bit, my father enlisted in -- I believe around March of 1940 -- in a unit of the Polish army, which was reforming in France. The Polish army had been defeated fairly quickly. In part they’d also been undercut by the Soviet Invasion from the East. Many Polish soldiers managed to get out of Poland. There was also a substantial Polish population in France. Many of the Polish generals escaped and they created an army in France to aid the French in fighting the Nazis. My father joined that army in March of 1946 and basically those groups were disbanded.
Hannah Gill: March of ’46?
Peter Gordon: [18:53] I’m sorry-- ’40. Not ’46. Those groups were disbanded in June-July-August of 1940 after an armistice was signed. I don’t believe he ever saw battle there. I had trouble tracing that, but from what I read at the time, there were four Polish divisions formed, two of them saw substantial fighting. Two of them were sufficiently late in forming and, given the very difficult issues of supply and organization, never actually went into combat. My guess is that he was in one of those. He then went back to Montpellier. From some correspondence, I believe that they survived because he was able to get some work in a company that -- I don’t know exactly what they did -- but it was something related to the wine industry. There are letters from the head of the company in Montpellier, [Zimotechnique], saying that their doctor, who had been assessing for quality or purity, their regular doctor, had left for some reason, therefore they were employing my father. I gather he was not able to work as a doctor. So, they were in France then. I’ve now read several things, including a couple very wonderful books, that provide compelling descriptions about that time. There were many desperate people who were trying to get out of Europe. They all converged on Marseilles, which was a large port on the Mediterranean. My father was at Montpellier, which was not too far from Marseilles. I don’t know exactly when they started working on trying to get out, but it probably was very early. One very curious thing that I just figured out from documents (and I don’t know exactly how the mail worked back then), but there is a lot of personal correspondence from Poland to my father in Montpellier. There was none before the fall of 1940. What I assume is that the Soviet Union was allied with the Germans with whom the French were at war so there was no postal service. Once France capitulated and the Vichy government was collaborating, you could get postal service from Soviet occupied Poland to Montpellier. There are many post cards because of the censors. It was cheaper to send postcards, but censors looked at everything so you didn’t have to worry about them tearing it open because it was already open. They are horribly striking. If you look at them, you can see the post cards are essentially in Russian, the framing of them. They are embossed with the hammer and sickle, and then there is a postal mark with an eagle and swastika on it, meaning that it at least gone through Nazi hands. Those were emblems that to me existed in movies. Most of these are in Polish and it’s on my agenda to have them translated. I don’t speak any Polish. There are some in French and I can barely make out what they say. The curious thing that is evident in some of them is that they are more concerned about my father being in defeated France then about themselves being in Soviet-controlled Poland. They were writing to the Soviet government to see if they would allow my father to come back to Poland. I don’t know whether he thought that was a good idea. I know that one of his brothers, his younger brother, Menasha, had been studying in France and had gone back to Poland after the war started. I’m not sure how exactly one did that, but presumably through the Mediterranean and up through the south, through the Soviet Union. My mother had said that my father had asked his brother not to return, that he thought it was a mistake. This was before France had fallen, but my father thought it was a mistake.
Hannah Gill: Your father thought it was a mistake for Menasha to go back.
Peter Gordon: [25:29] Yes. Menasha has fairly neat handwriting and wrote in French sometimes so I can make some sense of his writing. But then there start to be documents related to—well let me just read one part of his letters. This is dated January 2, 1941: “La mère dit que on a pasée une guerre y on va passer celle-ci aussi.” Mother said they survived one war and they would survive this one as well. This part of Poland had seen many battles in WWI, so that was her reference. There start to be documents related to my father’s efforts to leave France. These are things that I tried to piece together. This is a “pass of safe conduct”. A safe conduct was needed for any foreigner in France who was traveling outside the area of his or her residence, so a foreigner had to have a piece of paper, a safe conduct, allowing them to go. That one, that first one there, is from, I don’t recall the date. It’s on there you can see it. It’s January 1941 and the purpose is to visit the US consulate. I gather that nothing practical, no practical aid, came of that. At that point, it was extremely hard to get a visa to enter the United States as a refugee. There were people in South of France who did get them. They tended to be famous people. People who had groups lobbying on their behalf in the United States. But he was not able to apparently get a visa, but he did seek that first.
Hannah Gill: Your father’s last name?
Peter Gordon: Chrabolowski.
Hannah Gill: Okay, not Gordon.
Peter Gordon: [28:59] C-H-R-A-B-O-L-O-W-S-K-I. My name is Peter Chrabolowski Gordon. Gordon was a name taken by the first Chrabolowski who came to the United States in the late 19th Century, my father’s great uncle Phineas. Subsequent members of that family who came to the US also took that name. There was substantial migration from Poland to the US in the late 19th century and the very early 20th part of the century, immigration was shut down to a very large extent from areas like that in the 1920s. That’s my understanding. Then we have a letter here that is dated the 28th of May 1941. At this point the French government has been defeated for almost a year and things are obviously not good. This letter addressed to my father is from the Consulate General of Mexico and signed by a man named Gilberto Bosques Saldívar.
Hannah Gill: They want more documents from him?
Peter Gordon: Yes, they want more documents.
Hannah Gill: Can you read it out?
Peter Gordon: [31:07] [He reads in French]. It begins by saying we’ve received authorization for you to enter Mexico. Then it says that they need four photographs of him in profile and eleven full face photographs. This is for various documents, I guess. Then we have another sauf conduit, safe conduct, and this one is dated 4th of June, 1941, to visit the Mexican Consulate in Marseilles. Presumably that’s where he went with the photographs. Then there is a final letter from Gilberto Bosques and this one is in Spanish. I’ll let you read that.
Hannah Gill: En respuesta a su escrito citado en la referencia manifiesta a usted que cuando nuestra delegación en Vichy nos remita la tarjeta de identidad viaje corrrespondiente a la documentación que dice a ver su escrito procederemos a expedirle el visado correspondiente su internación en México. In response to your written citation in the reference shows that. . . . Okay, we are going to precede with expediting the visa, the corresponding visa, for your arrival. I can’t translate that exactly, but it says that they are expediting the process of admitting him. They had received his information.
Peter Gordon: We have a photocopy of the visa and so there’s my father. There is his first wife, Beata, the baby, my half-brother.
Hannah Gill: Your brother?
Peter Gordon: Andre.
Hannah Gill: Andre.
Peter Gordon: It says here.
Hannah Gill: Okay.
Peter Gordon: [34:19] It was approved by the Mexican Minister in Vichy, Francisco Aguilar. It was issued by Gilberto Bosques. It states here that my father was an ex-combatant in the International Brigades and his country of origin was Poland. Now this is one of the things I began to research when I was trying to understand how my father ended up in Mexico and what I’ve been told by my mother was that the Mexican government was very sympathetic to the Spanish Republicans. That’s why he was able to get into Mexico because he fought for the Spanish Republic. What was part of his death sentence if caught by the Nazis was part of what would allow him to escape because it played a role in Mexico taking him. I’ve done research on this and Mexican immigration policy during that time was a complicated subject. I’ve learned something about it and clearly there are different views. There is now a fair amount of attention being given to Gilberto Bosques. In brief outline, it is clear that Bosques had a strong association to Lázaro Cárdenas who was President of Mexico from 1934-1940. Cárdenas was very sympathetic to the Spanish Republic. Cárdenas was very sympathetic to socialism. He was considered a socialist. For better or worse he nationalized the Mexican oil companies and created Pemex. He sent Bosques to France as Consulate General with instructions to help refugees from the Spanish Republic. Bosques first went to Paris and when the French were defeated then relocated to Marseilles. There are popular accounts of this that say he rescued a huge number of people. The more scholarly accounts are a bit skeptical of the stated numbers. There is no doubt he rescued a lot. He was the general counsel in Marseilles. He was reported to have rented castles in Southern France and stated they were part of Mexican national property because he was the consulate and allowed refugees to stay there. Partially there are problems knowing exactly what happened because in the fall of 1942, the Germans occupied all of France and Bosques burned his records because they would have information about people. Bosques, his wife and children and twenty members of the Mexican consulate were jailed by the Gestapo and were held in prison for a year until apparently the Mexican government arrested a number of German nationals and traded them. Bosques was able to get out. He went on to work in the foreign service in Mexico, was ambassador to Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis and in 1998 died at the age of 102.
Hannah Gill: Extraordinary.
Peter Gordon: [39:13] Yeah. In accounts of the time, people talked about how, people drove around to every consulate imaginable trying to get something. They talked about how the Mexican Consulate, Gilberto Bosques’ offices, were the only ones that treated them like human beings. At many of them, they weren’t treated that way. It was just like “there’s nothing they could do”. He clearly was an extraordinary person and exactly what or how much he did is not so clear. To get out, you needed a minimum of three things. You needed an entrance visa to a country that would take you. That my father got first from Mexico. Then you needed an exit visa and that was also hard to get. I have a copy of the exit visa, I don’t have it right here. I think that was the next thing he got. I believe from family stories that this was gotten in part with forged documents stating my father was in bad health and this was potentially a reason to give him an exit visa. My father thought that the official who accepted the documentation must have been an idiot because it was so blatantly forged. Later he realized that he must have been sympathetic. That he could just file it and no one would ever look at it again. That he could help someone. Then you needed a boat ticket. You needed money for that. You needed a boat and there weren’t that many boats. The money for the ticket was raised by my father’s family in the states.
Hannah Gill: His uncle?
Peter Gordon: [41:49] His uncle and other relatives. The uncle was not the only one at that point. It was terribly complicated to arrange these kinds of financial transactions, but there were organizations of various sorts, including Jewish organizations, that would take care of receiving money and arranging the tickets. We find in this letter here from the joint Jewish immigration organization, on the 15th of February 1942, saying that various types of money had been received.
Hannah Gill: Okay
Peter Gordon: [42:49] And that they’ll let him know about the boat. One of the big problems was that you have to have all of the documents and everything available at once and sometimes you’d get an entrance visa and it would be time limited. By the time you got other documents, it would expire, or they would expire while you were waiting for a boat. The boats in general had to be neutral from neutral countries so they’d have to be Portuguese. To get to Portugal you had to go through Spain. In some cases, you’d have to get an additional visa, a transit visa, to pass through Spain to Portugal. That was another obstacle, but if you were someone like my father that was out of the question, he could not go back to Spain. He and his family got a boat from Marseilles to Casablanca. The Lipari—I found the boat. From there, they embarked on the San Tomé Portuguese liner from Casablanca to Veracruz leaving on 22nd of March 1942.
Hannah Gill: To Veracruz?
Peter Gordon: [44:50] To Veracruz. This is a period about which a great deal has been written. If you have a few facts like the boat and the date, you can find out more. That’s how I was able to find out about the Lipari because there are people who’ve recorded their histories or the family histories who were on the San Tomé. They went from Marseilles to Casablanca on the Lipari. I infer that must have been what happened here. Apparently, the San Tomé was a fairly nice boat. It had food. They had been very hungry in France, everything was rationed. I have ration coupons that are left over that are in my father’s papers and if you read the books of this time, food of course was a horrible issue because the Nazis were basically expropriating the resources of the countries they conquered. Here is a picture of my father. It’s probably one of the photos for the documents, but you can see clearly that he looks as thin as a rail. The San Tomé docked in Veracruz, I believe around the middle of April. It then continued, I believe, to Havana. There were, according to the sources I’ve read, around 120 passengers for Veracruz. Most of them were allowed immediately off the boat, but there were around 30 of them that were not allowed to debark—weren’t allowed to enter Mexico. Those were the ones that were associated with the International Brigades; so I assume that included my father and his family. The boat was delayed in Veracruz for a week or ten days, while this issue was resolved. One of the things that happened, very horribly, was that sometimes people would escape Europe and spend a month on a boat getting to a destination and then be denied entry. In some cases, when the boat went back to Europe, they were on it and that was their fate. What I read was that eventually money changed hands and that they were allowed to enter Mexico. In general, in what I’ve read about that time in Mexican immigration policy was that you had the same set of conflicting attitudes about refugees, some sympathy, some antipathy of various sorts, but you also had a bureaucratic system, where decisions depended on who happened to be right there. There was a reasonable level of corruption in Mexico and so the idea that local officials demanded money was not entirely surprising. Some books cite FBI reports particularly about corruption in Veracruz and essentially making money off of refugees, which continues today in various guises and in various places. The other thing about this in part relates to whether Bosques’ actions should be seen as a general humanitarian response or a more narrow response. Mexico at the time recognized political asylum and in fact took some pride in being associated with political asylum. Most famously, Trotsky received asylum in Mexico, undoubtedly because of Cárdenas. In general, they did not accept racial refugees -- Jews were considered racial refugees -- and there was a distinction there between people who needed asylum because of political reasons and people who needed asylum because of persecution due to their ethnic or religious characteristics; the term “racial” was used then. It is pretty clear that my father was considered a political refugee, that his fighting in the International Brigades, which was listed on his visa, was the basis for being granted a visa in Mexico. It wasn’t a general humanitarian refugee policy, it was one particularly aimed at political refugees and that’s how he got into Mexico.Can we take a break for just a minute?
Hannah Gill: Of course. END OF TAPE [51:50]
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Profesores
Es: Género de entrevistado
Hombre
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Temas
Guerra y violencia; Experiencia migratoria; Racismo y discriminación; Religión; Salud
Es: Transcripción
Hannah Gill: All right, let’s get started.
Peter Gordon: Okay.
Hannah Gill: Thank you so much Peter for talking to me today. I’m really interested to learn more about this extraordinary story of your father and your own life as well, and how that’s impacted your life.
Peter Gordon: Happy to do it.
Hannah Gill: So, maybe we can just start with what do you know about your father’s migration story that you would like to share.
Peter Gordon: [00:30] Well, I’m mostly interested in telling the story, which involves his time in France, where he was completing medical school, also some time in Spain. Then his migration to Mexico, where he lived for almost four years until the summer of 1946. Then his migration to the US and the circumstances that created the desire and need for those migrations and the circumstances that made it possible. This is something I’ve become focused on as its clear that migration and treatment of refugees is now an extremely important, contentious and serious issue in the United States, in other countries in the western hemisphere as well and in the world in general. It seems to me that there are clear parallels between what happened in Europe in the 1930’s and 40’s and what’s happening now. That’s not a novel observation; others have made it, but it’s something I’ve become very focused on because I knew that there was this history in my own family, where migration and being granted refugee status was absolutely critical to survival. It seems to be important to understand the history in looking at the kinds of attitudes towards policies that exist now and perhaps trying to change them.
Hannah Gill: So, your father was born in Poland and he grew up in Poland. So how did he wind up in medical school in France?
Peter Gordon: [02:35] He was born in Poland in 1911. His father was a butcher and meat wholesaler and probably very successful. My father was the oldest of six children and his parents hadn’t been educated through a university, but they wanted their children to be educated. My father, after finishing high school, went to the University of Warsaw and graduated with a degree in math and from there he left to go to France to go to medical school. Now exactly why he went to France, I’m not certain, but I’ve heard that in part it was because in that period, this would have been around 1932, there were starting to be quotas at Polish universities on how many Jewish students were allowed to enroll, limits on them. So to seek education, many had to go abroad if they could, and I say his father must have been a successful butcher because they had enough resources to send, in fact, three of their children to Western Europe, to study.
Hannah Gill: Were they all in France?
Peter Gordon: [04:05] They were all in France, yes. My father went to France around 1931, he completed a one-year program with a certificate at Montpellier in the sciences and then enrolled in medical school there. He was in medical school, in residence, through part of 1936, and then he left France and went to Spain. He joined the International Brigades, which were fighting in the Spanish Civil War. According to my mother, he did that because it was a way of fighting fascism. The war was seen as a rehearsal for WWII and many people came to support the Spanish Republic against the rebellion by the conservative military that was largely aligned with fascist countries, particularly Italy and Germany, who provided substantial support in that rebellion. My father served in the International Brigades as a medical officer and did that for some time in ’36 (I don’t have the exact date) until the International Brigades were disbanded and left Spain in October of 1938. I have a lot of documents that are related to the end of his service in the International Brigades. Probably they also relate to the difficulty in arranging for the brigade members to get out of Spain. I don’t know when exactly he got out of Spain, but he was in Barcelona after the brigades were disbanded in October, he was certainly was there in November, and he may have been there in December. But ultimately he went back to France. He’d been a medical officer in Spain. He started out as a sub-lieutenant and was promoted to lieutenant at some point. I have the papers on that in 1937. He was clearly capable of practicing as a doctor, but he had not completed all his requirements for his degree in France. At that time, I don’t know about now, medical doctors had to write a thesis, so he returned to Montpellier and competed his thesis, which is about the health service and hygiene service in an infantry battalion in the Spanish War, 1936-1939.
Hannah Gill: Wow.
Peter Gordon: [07:53] My French is not great, but I’ve read a lot of dissertations and it’s not much. Well that’s not fair, my mother said that my father had said that at that point they would take anything [laughs]- - if you had all you medical training, they wanted to give their students degrees and get them out in the world. But, the thesis a first-hand account of some of his experiences, beginning with the fall of ’36 when as he says he was assigned to a group of militias. They were very unorganized to start with and he recounts the degree of disorganization there. Then it became a bit more organized as they realized, the Spanish Republic realized, that simply arming anarchists to try to fight the organized military of the rebelling conservatives wasn’t going to work. They needed more of a standard military organization. The thesis is not very long, it’s all firsthand, there are no references, no citations, and it ends by saying that no one would want to model a modern military medical service after what happened in Spain. But they were doing what they could, given what they had, and that under the circumstances, many people did very brave work and very good work, but it was a very difficult situation. It’s very hard to trace where he was in Spain because the brigades and the battalions all get renamed and talked about in different ways. I’m not a military historian, I’m a lab scientist. I’m used to much better records. I know that he was affiliated with the Garibaldi Brigade, which was an Italian brigade. Exactly why or how, I don’t know. He was also in a French-Belgian brigade, even though he was Polish.
Hannah Gill: Do you know if he would have spoken Spanish or learned Spanish in Spain, before or during?
Peter Gordon: [10:35] That is a good question, and certainly one of the issues for the International Brigades was they had trouble communicating. I know that my father grew up speaking Polish, Russian, Yiddish, and Hebrew. His family was from Eastern Poland and in fact, when he was born in 1911, it was part of Russia. He must have learned some French by the time he went to medical school in France, certainly he wrote his thesis in French. I think it is fair to say he was a gifted polyglot. It’s something that embarrasses me, given my own limitations. How quickly he learned Spanish, I don’t know, but I know that he obviously picked up languages quickly and certainly was fluent in Spanish by the time he was working in Mexico.
Hannah Gill: Well, you certainly have continued this work in language. In a different way, but..
Peter Gordon: [12:00] In a different way, and language, not languages.
Hannah Gill: Well, understanding the neuroscience of language, acquiring language, or speaking?
Peter Gordon: [12:12] Well, acquiring and using language.
Hannah Gill: Yeah.
Peter Gordon: [12:18] I do have a document here that is dated the 5th of January 1938 that I would like to mention. It’s in Spanish and it’s the Order of the Day from the 14th International Brigade. The first item cites my father for bravery in battle. It says that he has served as an example of an antifascist doctor dedicated to the common cause [reads the phrase in Spanish “Es el ejemplo de lo que debe ser un medico antifascista adicto a la causa comun.”
Hannah Gill: He made his way back to France and finished medical school?
Peter Gordon: [13:14] He finished his thesis. He got married to a Polish woman, who was also in France, Beata Babad [he spells the name out]. They had a son, Andre, who was born in June of 1940. I have a fair number of documents from that time. Basically, they were considered refugees. WWII started in August in 1939 with the invasion of Poland. Poland as a country ceased to exist for a while. The Nazis occupied western Poland and through the pact with the Soviet Union, the Soviet Union occupied eastern Poland, including the part of Poland where my father was from, the town of Bielsk-Podlaski [he spells it out]. There was no way, even if they wanted to, to go back to their country of origin. I read a fair bit about this now. There were many people in that situation in France and the French government’s policies towards them changed radically over time, depending on who was in office. There was tremendous anti-refugee feeling in a huge part of the French population, certainly not all, but a huge part. The kinds of attitudes that you read about then are the same kinds of attitudes that you read about today. It was thought that the refugees didn’t fit in socially, they would take jobs from French people, they were “criminals”, and that they were possibly “agents of foreign governments who would undermine the French government”. All those things. Their situation was not easy. My father had to complete an internship at a hospital in Nîmes, still part of southern France. The situation changed a great deal in June of 1940, when the Germans very quickly defeated the French and occupied the northern and western part of France, essentially, everything along the English Channel, between Belgium and the Spanish border, Paris too. That was their front with England. There was a puppet government, the Vichy government, in southern France, which was a very reactionary government that was collaborating with the Nazis. That was the part of France they were in. It was better to be there than in the north, but it was still not very good. Just to go back a bit, my father enlisted in -- I believe around March of 1940 -- in a unit of the Polish army, which was reforming in France. The Polish army had been defeated fairly quickly. In part they’d also been undercut by the Soviet Invasion from the East. Many Polish soldiers managed to get out of Poland. There was also a substantial Polish population in France. Many of the Polish generals escaped and they created an army in France to aid the French in fighting the Nazis. My father joined that army in March of 1946 and basically those groups were disbanded.
Hannah Gill: March of ’46?
Peter Gordon: [18:53] I’m sorry-- ’40. Not ’46. Those groups were disbanded in June-July-August of 1940 after an armistice was signed. I don’t believe he ever saw battle there. I had trouble tracing that, but from what I read at the time, there were four Polish divisions formed, two of them saw substantial fighting. Two of them were sufficiently late in forming and, given the very difficult issues of supply and organization, never actually went into combat. My guess is that he was in one of those. He then went back to Montpellier. From some correspondence, I believe that they survived because he was able to get some work in a company that -- I don’t know exactly what they did -- but it was something related to the wine industry. There are letters from the head of the company in Montpellier, [Zimotechnique], saying that their doctor, who had been assessing for quality or purity, their regular doctor, had left for some reason, therefore they were employing my father. I gather he was not able to work as a doctor. So, they were in France then. I’ve now read several things, including a couple very wonderful books, that provide compelling descriptions about that time. There were many desperate people who were trying to get out of Europe. They all converged on Marseilles, which was a large port on the Mediterranean. My father was at Montpellier, which was not too far from Marseilles. I don’t know exactly when they started working on trying to get out, but it probably was very early. One very curious thing that I just figured out from documents (and I don’t know exactly how the mail worked back then), but there is a lot of personal correspondence from Poland to my father in Montpellier. There was none before the fall of 1940. What I assume is that the Soviet Union was allied with the Germans with whom the French were at war so there was no postal service. Once France capitulated and the Vichy government was collaborating, you could get postal service from Soviet occupied Poland to Montpellier. There are many post cards because of the censors. It was cheaper to send postcards, but censors looked at everything so you didn’t have to worry about them tearing it open because it was already open. They are horribly striking. If you look at them, you can see the post cards are essentially in Russian, the framing of them. They are embossed with the hammer and sickle, and then there is a postal mark with an eagle and swastika on it, meaning that it at least gone through Nazi hands. Those were emblems that to me existed in movies. Most of these are in Polish and it’s on my agenda to have them translated. I don’t speak any Polish. There are some in French and I can barely make out what they say. The curious thing that is evident in some of them is that they are more concerned about my father being in defeated France then about themselves being in Soviet-controlled Poland. They were writing to the Soviet government to see if they would allow my father to come back to Poland. I don’t know whether he thought that was a good idea. I know that one of his brothers, his younger brother, Menasha, had been studying in France and had gone back to Poland after the war started. I’m not sure how exactly one did that, but presumably through the Mediterranean and up through the south, through the Soviet Union. My mother had said that my father had asked his brother not to return, that he thought it was a mistake. This was before France had fallen, but my father thought it was a mistake.
Hannah Gill: Your father thought it was a mistake for Menasha to go back.
Peter Gordon: [25:29] Yes. Menasha has fairly neat handwriting and wrote in French sometimes so I can make some sense of his writing. But then there start to be documents related to—well let me just read one part of his letters. This is dated January 2, 1941: “La mère dit que on a pasée une guerre y on va passer celle-ci aussi.” Mother said they survived one war and they would survive this one as well. This part of Poland had seen many battles in WWI, so that was her reference. There start to be documents related to my father’s efforts to leave France. These are things that I tried to piece together. This is a “pass of safe conduct”. A safe conduct was needed for any foreigner in France who was traveling outside the area of his or her residence, so a foreigner had to have a piece of paper, a safe conduct, allowing them to go. That one, that first one there, is from, I don’t recall the date. It’s on there you can see it. It’s January 1941 and the purpose is to visit the US consulate. I gather that nothing practical, no practical aid, came of that. At that point, it was extremely hard to get a visa to enter the United States as a refugee. There were people in South of France who did get them. They tended to be famous people. People who had groups lobbying on their behalf in the United States. But he was not able to apparently get a visa, but he did seek that first.
Hannah Gill: Your father’s last name?
Peter Gordon: Chrabolowski.
Hannah Gill: Okay, not Gordon.
Peter Gordon: [28:59] C-H-R-A-B-O-L-O-W-S-K-I. My name is Peter Chrabolowski Gordon. Gordon was a name taken by the first Chrabolowski who came to the United States in the late 19th Century, my father’s great uncle Phineas. Subsequent members of that family who came to the US also took that name. There was substantial migration from Poland to the US in the late 19th century and the very early 20th part of the century, immigration was shut down to a very large extent from areas like that in the 1920s. That’s my understanding. Then we have a letter here that is dated the 28th of May 1941. At this point the French government has been defeated for almost a year and things are obviously not good. This letter addressed to my father is from the Consulate General of Mexico and signed by a man named Gilberto Bosques Saldívar.
Hannah Gill: They want more documents from him?
Peter Gordon: Yes, they want more documents.
Hannah Gill: Can you read it out?
Peter Gordon: [31:07] [He reads in French]. It begins by saying we’ve received authorization for you to enter Mexico. Then it says that they need four photographs of him in profile and eleven full face photographs. This is for various documents, I guess. Then we have another sauf conduit, safe conduct, and this one is dated 4th of June, 1941, to visit the Mexican Consulate in Marseilles. Presumably that’s where he went with the photographs. Then there is a final letter from Gilberto Bosques and this one is in Spanish. I’ll let you read that.
Hannah Gill: En respuesta a su escrito citado en la referencia manifiesta a usted que cuando nuestra delegación en Vichy nos remita la tarjeta de identidad viaje corrrespondiente a la documentación que dice a ver su escrito procederemos a expedirle el visado correspondiente su internación en México. In response to your written citation in the reference shows that. . . . Okay, we are going to precede with expediting the visa, the corresponding visa, for your arrival. I can’t translate that exactly, but it says that they are expediting the process of admitting him. They had received his information.
Peter Gordon: We have a photocopy of the visa and so there’s my father. There is his first wife, Beata, the baby, my half-brother.
Hannah Gill: Your brother?
Peter Gordon: Andre.
Hannah Gill: Andre.
Peter Gordon: It says here.
Hannah Gill: Okay.
Peter Gordon: [34:19] It was approved by the Mexican Minister in Vichy, Francisco Aguilar. It was issued by Gilberto Bosques. It states here that my father was an ex-combatant in the International Brigades and his country of origin was Poland. Now this is one of the things I began to research when I was trying to understand how my father ended up in Mexico and what I’ve been told by my mother was that the Mexican government was very sympathetic to the Spanish Republicans. That’s why he was able to get into Mexico because he fought for the Spanish Republic. What was part of his death sentence if caught by the Nazis was part of what would allow him to escape because it played a role in Mexico taking him. I’ve done research on this and Mexican immigration policy during that time was a complicated subject. I’ve learned something about it and clearly there are different views. There is now a fair amount of attention being given to Gilberto Bosques. In brief outline, it is clear that Bosques had a strong association to Lázaro Cárdenas who was President of Mexico from 1934-1940. Cárdenas was very sympathetic to the Spanish Republic. Cárdenas was very sympathetic to socialism. He was considered a socialist. For better or worse he nationalized the Mexican oil companies and created Pemex. He sent Bosques to France as Consulate General with instructions to help refugees from the Spanish Republic. Bosques first went to Paris and when the French were defeated then relocated to Marseilles. There are popular accounts of this that say he rescued a huge number of people. The more scholarly accounts are a bit skeptical of the stated numbers. There is no doubt he rescued a lot. He was the general counsel in Marseilles. He was reported to have rented castles in Southern France and stated they were part of Mexican national property because he was the consulate and allowed refugees to stay there. Partially there are problems knowing exactly what happened because in the fall of 1942, the Germans occupied all of France and Bosques burned his records because they would have information about people. Bosques, his wife and children and twenty members of the Mexican consulate were jailed by the Gestapo and were held in prison for a year until apparently the Mexican government arrested a number of German nationals and traded them. Bosques was able to get out. He went on to work in the foreign service in Mexico, was ambassador to Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis and in 1998 died at the age of 102.
Hannah Gill: Extraordinary.
Peter Gordon: [39:13] Yeah. In accounts of the time, people talked about how, people drove around to every consulate imaginable trying to get something. They talked about how the Mexican Consulate, Gilberto Bosques’ offices, were the only ones that treated them like human beings. At many of them, they weren’t treated that way. It was just like “there’s nothing they could do”. He clearly was an extraordinary person and exactly what or how much he did is not so clear. To get out, you needed a minimum of three things. You needed an entrance visa to a country that would take you. That my father got first from Mexico. Then you needed an exit visa and that was also hard to get. I have a copy of the exit visa, I don’t have it right here. I think that was the next thing he got. I believe from family stories that this was gotten in part with forged documents stating my father was in bad health and this was potentially a reason to give him an exit visa. My father thought that the official who accepted the documentation must have been an idiot because it was so blatantly forged. Later he realized that he must have been sympathetic. That he could just file it and no one would ever look at it again. That he could help someone. Then you needed a boat ticket. You needed money for that. You needed a boat and there weren’t that many boats. The money for the ticket was raised by my father’s family in the states.
Hannah Gill: His uncle?
Peter Gordon: [41:49] His uncle and other relatives. The uncle was not the only one at that point. It was terribly complicated to arrange these kinds of financial transactions, but there were organizations of various sorts, including Jewish organizations, that would take care of receiving money and arranging the tickets. We find in this letter here from the joint Jewish immigration organization, on the 15th of February 1942, saying that various types of money had been received.
Hannah Gill: Okay
Peter Gordon: [42:49] And that they’ll let him know about the boat. One of the big problems was that you have to have all of the documents and everything available at once and sometimes you’d get an entrance visa and it would be time limited. By the time you got other documents, it would expire, or they would expire while you were waiting for a boat. The boats in general had to be neutral from neutral countries so they’d have to be Portuguese. To get to Portugal you had to go through Spain. In some cases, you’d have to get an additional visa, a transit visa, to pass through Spain to Portugal. That was another obstacle, but if you were someone like my father that was out of the question, he could not go back to Spain. He and his family got a boat from Marseilles to Casablanca. The Lipari—I found the boat. From there, they embarked on the San Tomé Portuguese liner from Casablanca to Veracruz leaving on 22nd of March 1942.
Hannah Gill: To Veracruz?
Peter Gordon: [44:50] To Veracruz. This is a period about which a great deal has been written. If you have a few facts like the boat and the date, you can find out more. That’s how I was able to find out about the Lipari because there are people who’ve recorded their histories or the family histories who were on the San Tomé. They went from Marseilles to Casablanca on the Lipari. I infer that must have been what happened here. Apparently, the San Tomé was a fairly nice boat. It had food. They had been very hungry in France, everything was rationed. I have ration coupons that are left over that are in my father’s papers and if you read the books of this time, food of course was a horrible issue because the Nazis were basically expropriating the resources of the countries they conquered. Here is a picture of my father. It’s probably one of the photos for the documents, but you can see clearly that he looks as thin as a rail. The San Tomé docked in Veracruz, I believe around the middle of April. It then continued, I believe, to Havana. There were, according to the sources I’ve read, around 120 passengers for Veracruz. Most of them were allowed immediately off the boat, but there were around 30 of them that were not allowed to debark—weren’t allowed to enter Mexico. Those were the ones that were associated with the International Brigades; so I assume that included my father and his family. The boat was delayed in Veracruz for a week or ten days, while this issue was resolved. One of the things that happened, very horribly, was that sometimes people would escape Europe and spend a month on a boat getting to a destination and then be denied entry. In some cases, when the boat went back to Europe, they were on it and that was their fate. What I read was that eventually money changed hands and that they were allowed to enter Mexico. In general, in what I’ve read about that time in Mexican immigration policy was that you had the same set of conflicting attitudes about refugees, some sympathy, some antipathy of various sorts, but you also had a bureaucratic system, where decisions depended on who happened to be right there. There was a reasonable level of corruption in Mexico and so the idea that local officials demanded money was not entirely surprising. Some books cite FBI reports particularly about corruption in Veracruz and essentially making money off of refugees, which continues today in various guises and in various places. The other thing about this in part relates to whether Bosques’ actions should be seen as a general humanitarian response or a more narrow response. Mexico at the time recognized political asylum and in fact took some pride in being associated with political asylum. Most famously, Trotsky received asylum in Mexico, undoubtedly because of Cárdenas. In general, they did not accept racial refugees -- Jews were considered racial refugees -- and there was a distinction there between people who needed asylum because of political reasons and people who needed asylum because of persecution due to their ethnic or religious characteristics; the term “racial” was used then. It is pretty clear that my father was considered a political refugee, that his fighting in the International Brigades, which was listed on his visa, was the basis for being granted a visa in Mexico. It wasn’t a general humanitarian refugee policy, it was one particularly aimed at political refugees and that’s how he got into Mexico.Can we take a break for just a minute?
Hannah Gill: Of course. END OF TAPE [51:50]
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Es: Resumen
Esta entrevista de historia oral es la primera de una serie de tres partes con Peter Gordon en Chapel Hill, Carolina del Norte, el 12 de octubre de 2018. Peter Gordon describe la historia de migración de su padre, Samuel Chrabolowski Gordon, durante la Segunda Guerra Mundial. Samuel Chrabolowski Gordon nació en una familia judía en Polonia. Samuel Gordon escapó de la persecución nazi al emigrar a México, donde trabajó como médico en un campo de refugiados en León, Guanajuato durante tres años antes de finalmente establecerse en los Estados Unidos. En la primera entrevista, Peter Gordon comienza la historia de su padre en la década de 1930 cuando Samuel Gordon sirvió en la Brigada Internacional en la Guerra Civil Española y estudió medicina en la Universidad de Montpellier, Francia. En 1942, cuando la ocupación nazi amenazaba la vida de los judíos que vivían en Francia, Samuel Gordon, su esposa Beata Babad y su hijo Andre Chrabolowski escaparon de Marsella en barco después de obtener una visa de entrada a México. La segunda entrevista comparte las experiencias de Samuel Gordon en México desde 1943 hasta el verano de 1946, donde fue el médico principal de la Colonia Santa Rosa para refugiados polacos en León, Guanajuato. La segunda entrevista describe como Beata Babad comenzó una carrera como escritora en el movimiento comunista. En la tercera entrevista, Peter Gordon habla de la emigración de su padre a los Estados Unidos a la region de Washington, D.C. Peter Gordon es profesor en el Programa de Psicología Cognitiva dentro del Departamento de Psicología y Neurociencia de la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill (UNC por sus siglas en inglés). La entrevista fue realizada en Davie Hall en el campus de la UNC por Hannah Gill, Sub-Directora del Instituto de Estudios sobre las Américas e Investigadora Principal de las Historias Orales de New Roots / Nuevas Raíces.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Peter Gordon, 12 octubre 2018, R-0985, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Dublin Core
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Title
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R-0985 -- Gordon, Peter.
Description
An account of the resource
This oral history interview is the first in a three-part series with Peter Gordon in Chapel Hill, North Carolina on October 12, 2018. Peter Gordon narrates the WWII migration story of his father, Samuel Chrabolowski Gordon, who was born to a Jewish family in Poland. Sam Gordon escaped Nazi persecution by migrating to Mexico, where he served as the doctor of a refugee camp in León, Guanajuato for three years before eventually settling in the United States. In the first interview, Peter Gordon begins his father’s story in the 1930s when Sam Gordon served in the International Brigades in the Spanish Civil War and attended medical school in Montpellier, France. In 1942, as Nazi occupation threatened the lives of Jews living in France, Sam Gordon, his wife Beata Babad, and son Andre Chrabolowski escaped from Marseille by boat after securing an entrance visa to Mexico. The second interview covers Sam Gordon’s experiences in Mexico from 1942 through the summer of 1946, where he became the head doctor at a camp (Colonia Santa Rosa) for Polish refugees in León, Guanajuato, and where Beata Babad started a writing career in the Communist party. In the third interview, Peter Gordon narrates his father’s emigration and permanent settlement in the United States in Washington, D.C. Peter Gordon is Professor in the Cognitive Psychology Program within the Department of Psychology and Neuroscience at UNC Chapel Hill. The interview was conducted in Davie Hall on the UNC campus by Hannah Gill, Associate Director of the Institute for the Study of the Americas and Principal Investigator of the New Roots/Nuevas Raíces Oral Histories.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-10-12
Publisher
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/28606">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
Format
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R0985_Audio.mp3
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/de45b966d5c8e9d3c06cbbc84a5d1bca.mp3
125cd6036bfe5d9d165a023b01171225
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/29368126802b3097566f19692c974d42.pdf
e2901e437387d9321387fb90463f6952
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0901
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
2018-04-05
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Fernandez, Eduardo.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Students
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Male
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Siler City -- Chatham County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Chapel Hill -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Heine, Rebecca.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Eddy Fernandez is a 3rd-year student at UNC-Chapel Hill who discusses his family’s experience immigrating to Siler City, North Carolina from Texas for employment in the Townsend Chicken Processing Plant. He also discusses his experience growing up in Siler City, a rural area that was primarily Latinx/Latino/Latina. Fernandez explains the way in which the large presence of mental health issues related to migration that he witnessed among his friends growing up has impacted his career choice in the field of public health. Fernandez discusses how he conducted a research project in 2017 on youth mental health as part of the Building Integrated Communities Initiative with the Town of Siler City.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Eduardo Fernandez by Rebecca Heine, 05 April 2018, R-0901, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/27563
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Racism and discrimination; Health; Social Networks; Higher Education; Receiving Communities
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Rebecca Heine: Hi this is Rebecca here interviewing Eddy Fernandez. Eddy do you consent to this interview?
Eddy Fernandez: Yes.
RH: Cool, let’s get started by you telling me about your year in school and what you’re studying.
EF: Yeah, so I’m a Junior so Class of 2019 and I’m studying Health Policy and Management in the School of Public Health here at UNC.
RH: [00:00:40] Okay, what do you see yourself doing career—wise in the future?
EF: That’s a very good question. I would say actually that I have a fairly decent idea of what I want to do. I eventually want to go either into research or into the health policy world and so kind of focusing on a career that would let me work on addressing health disparities and working on health systems either in the state or federal level. What that looks like exactly? I don’t know. It could be like working for a federal agency or it could be working for a state agency or it could be working at a research place like UNC and putting out more information about where the issues are in health disparities, what’s causing them and things like that and possible ways to address them. That’s kind of a broad overview of what I want to do and that’s probably all I can do honestly— broad.
RH: I gotcha. Have you enjoyed your first year through the Gillings program?
EF: Yeah oh my gosh I love Gillings so much. It’s a bit of a pain sometimes I will admit that. But this past week actually I had six or seven things due this one week actually because my professors decided to jam it all before Easter apparently. So it’s been really good because it’s very focused on health and health care and what’s it’s like here in the U.S. and kind of understanding how does the Federal Government and State Government interact to provide health insurance to people and how that affects their health and what other determinants affect whether or not someone’s living a health life like housing, income, things like that. So it’s been a really interesting year so far and I’ve learned a lot. It’s definitely— I don’t want to say changed my perspective, but it’s influenced how I think about health and how I perceive what is healthy, who starts off as healthy, and kind of thinking well what factors go into that.
RH: [00:02:54] Cool, so I was hoping you would get into describing your family life and your family’s immigration experience.
EF: Yeah, so I am an only child, which is very rare for Latinos, but— let’s see. I’m from Siler City first of all. I have half of my family here in Siler City. By here in Siler City I mean back home. Not like here in Chapel Hill. Whatever, it doesn’t matter. The other half are in Texas, Southern Texas, in a place called Alamo, which is a border city that’s literally, I think twenty minutes from Reynosa, which is in Tamaulipas the state. So, I lived at home with my mom and my stepdad. They— I’m trying to think of where to go from here. So they met each other when I think I was seven or eight so they’ve been together for more than half my life and so I’ve known him for a very long time. And then my other family who’s in North Carolina— it’s one of my aunts her name is Esperanza and she has also lived there her entire life and then my other aunt who lives in— not in Siler City necessarily, but she lives in High Point— they used to live in Siler City and then they moved to Chicago, and then they moved to Miami, and then they moved back to Siler City and then moved back to High Point. So they have been there in North Carolina for a good while, but not too long. And so the way that they immigrated here is really interesting actually. Originally from my family a lot of them are actually citizens so the only people that aren’t citizens are the three oldest in my family which is one of my aunts that lives in Texas, one of my uncles that lives in Texas and then my Mom. All three of them have their residency. So the way that they moved is that originally they lived in Alamo, they lived in McAllen and so they would go back and forth between Texas and Reynosa, which is again like twenty minutes from there and then eventually one of my aunts— the oldest one actually— moved to Siler City for— I actually don’t remember the reason why. But she eventually kind of brought over another aunt and my Mom and then ended up bringing one of my uncles over and then my aunt that had moved there originally decided that she didn’t like living in North Carolina so then she moved back to Texas. And then my uncle moved back to Texas and then another aunt came up to North Carolina so it was just a huge swapping motion and what not, but the reason that they came up was because of work and because of a poultry plant that was in Siler City. It was Townsend. And so they ended up just liking it here and so they decided to stay in North Carolina and Siler City specifically and they just kind of made their life here. My Mom worked for a little bit at a fabrics place and then she switched over to this manufacturing company that’s in Siler City that manufactures different plastics for different parts and then she’s been there for I don’t even know like sixteen, seventeen, eighteen years around there. Definitely like most of my life. Yeah, the poultry plant had closed down a while ago and both of my aunts ended up quitting before they closed. They did work there for a little while and that’s kind of what brought them to Siler City. So it’s just a lot of crossing over and traveling back and forth between these random family ties that you wouldn’t have guessed that they moved here to Siler City for something, but they did.
RH: What does your stepdad do?
EF: Yeah, so my stepdad, he works in a warehouse and he kind of just keeps up that warehouse and he establishes and kind of physically helps build office spaces. And he does that in Raleigh and Durham and for the office spaces it kind of depends on where they have him go it could be in Raleigh, Durham, he could be in Charlotte one day. A lot of traveling for him.
RH: [00:07:50] So I was hoping you would discuss you experience growing up in rural North Carolina and your and your family’s experience being part of the greater Latinx community there.
EF: Yeah, so could you repeat the question again.
RH: So, what was your experience growing up in rural North Carolina and being part of the greater Latinx community there.
EF: So I think in my head I grew up in rural North Carolina, but I don’t think I grew up in a traditional thinking of rural North Carolina because Siler City is like sixty or seventy percent Latinx. And so I think that I did grow up in a very rural area, but not in traditional rural areas like Ramseur, Asheboro or things like that, something with a higher population of white Americans. So I think growing up specifically in Siler City, which is coming next but I’ll talk about the rural part first, is interesting because there is this aspect where it’s kind of fun to poke at rural North Carolina and then being part of rural North Carolina, but you definitely see the kind of— and I definitely have realized it more that I’ve been here and I’ve kind of learned about the rural urban divide. But kind of seeing the lack of opportunities in rural areas and seeing the way that rural communities are set up— not necessarily to fail, but there’s scarce opportunity for people to be like socially mobile. I can’t think of that word now, you know what I’m talking about? Okay. Yeah and so of course me and my friends would always pick at ‘Oh let’s go hang out at the Walmart that’s our mall’ you know whatever and we’d have to drive thirty or forty minutes to get anywhere for fun so me and my friends did a lot of bonfires and we just hung out at the McDonalds and just did random stuff at each other’s houses. But kind of seeing— moving away from Siler City and getting an outside perspective of the short time that I’ve been here it’s been really interesting because I would say that from my high school not that many pursued higher education and I would say that’s because there just wasn’t much to do in Siler City. There just was not much educational opportunities slash ways to stay involved slash ways to also just grow as a person because you’re very much exposed to the same thing every single day. So I mean like— some people enjoy that. They like living in rural areas because it’s their thing and some people it’s like there’s nothing to do here so let’s go do xyz instead. And xyz isn’t necessarily good for the most part. So seeing that and also when you intersect the fact that the majority of the people there are Latinx and then you think about the history of Siler City. The history of Siler City is very interesting when you see the shift in the influx of Latinxes coming in in the late 1990’s and early 2000’s and you see how KKK rallies were hosted in Siler City at one point and the grand dragon was there for a little bit. And it’s funny because I was actually talking to my Mom about this a while ago and— well to give a little bit of context I’m very much involved in the Campus Y and I do a lot of the protesting and things like that and I was talking to my Mom one day and I like straight up asked her, I was like ‘Have you every been to a protest?’ And she was like, ‘Yeah I think I went to one in the early 2000’s that was against the KKK’ and I was like ‘what Mom?’ I asked her so much about it I don’t know and the history of Siler City is really interesting because it wasn’t interracial until this influx has happened and it wasn’t always a racially accepting town and I still would say it’s not. I mean, it’s made a lot of progress for sure, but there’s still a lot of issues in Siler City regarding how they treat Latinxes and so when you intersect that with the issues that a lot of Latinx people face it gets even more stark for the people that live in these rural areas like you have to worry about like okay where am I going to work, does that place allow me to work without papers, what about English and what about accessing services and what happens if I can’t pay my bills and who do I go to for that and things like that. So I think growing up in Siler City and seeing kind of the effects of racial disparities and income disparities and things like that and seeing the rural urban divide while I’ve been here has been a big push on why I’m interested in health disparities because literally everything that a person does is affecting their health and affecting how they live and what not so I think that’s why I’m very interested in health disparities and I think that’s why I pursued health policy and management. And I think that’s why I’m going to pursue research or health policy when I graduate.
RH: So when you said that influx of Latinx coming into Siler City, was that for the poultry plant?
EF: Yeah, so a lot of it was for the poultry plant that was there. It was Townsend and they would hire— I don’t know if they would actually use— I can’t remember the name of the Visa now, but it was the work Visa thing and I don’t know if they actually hired people from that or if they just had a few people that worked there that were Latinx and just kind of brought their families over just by word of mouth, but a lot of that was because of the poultry plant. And out right now there’s – well while it closed down two or three years ago there’s actually another one that’s opening up next yearish so it will be interesting to see how that affects migration patterns again in Siler City.
RH: Interesting. So you mentioned that you think that Siler City has a long way to go in terms of definitely having some issues of discrimination against the Latinx community, so I guess I was hoping you would talk a little more about instances of that or talk a little bit more about why you specifically think that Siler City needs to improve in certain aspects.
EF: I don’t know, I think a lot of it has to do with the historical and what’s happened already and the lack of trust that there is between the Latinx population in Siler city and the greater government in general whether it be local, police force, state government, things like that. But specifically instances— my parents have said so and I’ve kind of felt the same way is whenever police kind of follow and pull over people and they’ll set up checkpoints in very specific areas and areas that they know are home to a large population of the Latino population in Siler City. They’ll put them in strategic areas at strategic times like when people are going to work, coming home from work, when people are dropping their kids at school, so it’s very— it’s the worst. I was going to use a different word, but I probably shouldn’t. But they set them up in these areas— and they’ve been better about not setting up as many checkpoints in the past year or two and I think— I was an intern at the health department last summer and so I was talking a bit to the people there and they were telling me about how the chief had taken a trip to— I can’t remember where in Mexico and just kind of learned about migrants and their experiences and why they come to the US and specifically Siler City because a lot of the migrants are from— I can’t remember if there are a lot from Guadalajara or somewhere else I can’t remember, but just kind of learning what larger forces are bringing them in. I want to say that trip really influenced him in that he hasn’t put check points in as many areas and granted they’re still going to have to put some checkpoints because it’s what they do, but not as heavy in very specific areas and I don’t know it’s been interesting to see how that change has happened and see how my family perceives it because they’ve definitely noticed it too. They remember six or seven years ago that they’d put a checkpoint every other week, like every month at least and it’s been a while since I’ve seen one at least and it’s been a while since they’ve seen one. It’s funny— I think I’ve noticed it more that I’ve started driving like when I was seventeen or eighteen when I actually started driving a lot on my own, but whenever I’d see a checkpoint I’d immediately freeze up and get really nervous and just being like ‘okay why am I nervous, why am I doing this, why am I having this reaction.’ And I think a lot of it stems from the way that I saw my parents perceive checkpoints and the way that my family perceived checkpoints and just kind of attributing that to ‘Okay, something bad is going to happen as soon as I walk in here and have my license read.’
RH: Okay, interesting. So you started talking about this, but how to you believe that your experience has impacted your research and career path. You’ve gotten into this a little bit.
EF: Yes. Like I said, going back to how health isn’t just receiving medical care and it’s not just the process of going to the doctor or getting a check up and what not. It’s important to do that, but that’s only twenty percent of what contributes to health. Everything else is up to the social determinants of health. What’s your housing like? What’s your income like? What kind of access to food do you have? Are they healthy foods? What about access to gyms and things like that. So, understanding okay there are a ton of different things that influence health and I think that’s a big reason why I want to pursue research and policy in that. It’s like we’re not going to— okay so a quick background about this— so the U.S. spends the most on healthcare, but we have the worst health outcomes compared to any other developed country. A lot of that is because we don’t take into account the effects of housing and income and things like that and racial disparities and how that affects people’s social mobility and how that affects health. I think that for me I’m extremely interested in social determinants, but I’m also really interested in mental health and how social determinants affect mental health. So I think that as soon as I heard that Siler city had gotten the BIC grant thing I went up to Hannah and Jessica Lee and said ‘Hey is there anyway that I can help with this. This is in my home town and I think it would be really great to work on this’ and they were like ‘yeah sure that would be great if you could’ and they were very open to me just kind of doing my own project and running with it. So I was like well let me see how mental health is perceived slash what kind of services are available for youth in Siler city and so— what was the question again? I want to make sure that I’m not straying.
RH: [00:21:18] How do you believe that your experience has impacted your research and career path. And then if you want, I mean the next question is discuss your research with me so if you want to start getting into that because I know they’re interrelated then go for it.
EF: Yeah, I’ll go a little bit and do the reasons why.
RH: Okay, perfect.
EF: I think the reasons why are a lot because of what I experienced in high school and seeing a lot of different friends dealing with mental health issues and a lot of them not pursuing help until after they graduated or have yet to pursue any help. I have a couple friends who went through major episodes of depression and major episodes of mania and a lot of people who self—harmed and things like that so I think seeing that and seeing a lot of it really was the reason why I wanted to do the research and kind of understanding okay what kind of resources are available there, what is the gap. What are the reasons this is happening first of all and what can be done to address these things and so for me I want to I guess get to the root of it, but understand what can be done from a policy perspective and what are things that local government can do. And that’s the whole thing about BIC, it’s leveraging local governments to impact local communities and also better integrating these migrant populations into local government and mental health is a part of that so I wanted to explore that in the research I did and I guess I’ll go ahead and start talking about the research itself.
RH: Go for it!
EF: So the way that it worked was that I interviewed school counselors and kind of got their perspective on okay what kind of things are offered within the school system and what kind of things are you seeing most of and how are people coming to you, what are they telling you and things like that. And so at least from what I’ve gathered there’s a good system in place in regards to people who can go to them and get the services that they need, but I think that from the research that I saw and what I gathered not many people are using them. They are being used pretty frequently, but not to the extent to which I feel like they should be. They have these in—school counselors, and then they have in—school therapists, and in school therapy, and then they do referrals and I don’t know they have a lot of different mechanisms from which they can refer people to if they should need do and so I think that’s really good, but – and this is the case for almost all schools really— counseling and support services are severely under—resourced and they don’t have the necessary tools to deal with these pressing issues and so I found out that there are these services that are available and a lot of the people that do come in tend to be kind of really worried about what’s going to happen post high—school amongst the high schoolers— I guess I’ll go through for every grade—ish. And so in high schoolers people are generally worried about what’s going to happen post grad like where am I going to go, what am I going to do, what kind of things are available to me. Because a lot of the people in Siler city, at least it was previously— I actually don’t know about it now because I’ll talk about it with elementary schoolers in a bit, but a lot of them are undocumented so they’re just worried about what kind of things are open to me, what kind of things post grad so they get into this kind of mindset of like there’s nothing out there for me and in some instances it’s validated. There aren’t too many things that are out there for undocumented people. There’s limited resources and it’s a very stark reality and it sucks and that’s one of the reasons why a lot of people go to like that.
And another thing is also just the general— well general’s not the right word, but dealing with self—esteem issues and things that every high schooler goes through and then having that further amplified through racial inequalities and things like that and it’s funny because another part of the research was doing a focus group with youth and I was able to do a little session with them about that and something that they had said that I was not prepared for was the effects of this past election on how they’re treated amongst their white peers and the specific quote that I was thinking of was that there’s no filter anymore. People will just go through the school yelling random things and yell racial slurs and things like that and then just thinking about how that affects them mentally and how that affects their home life and things like that. And just understanding that these people are facing the normal, in quotation marks, strains of teenage life, like self—esteem issues, just understanding where your place is amongst your friend groups, dealing with who am I as a person, but then also having to deal with how do I fit into this specific niche of ethnic populations and how do power relations play into that and so that’s kind of how that was there. And also a lot of people dealing with home issues like domestic violence, interpersonal violence with peers and relationship kind of stuff was also— a lot of people came in for that.
And then in middle schoolers, they have a lot of the same issues as high schoolers, but it’s actually really interesting to see how it’s not as bad. At least from what I gathered from what the data had told me was that it seems like there are a lot more support systems in place at the middle school level than any other level really and that they have a lot more services and availability for if they need to go talk to counselors or if they have issues with things. Which I thought was really interesting given that it’s middle school level. Just from past experience I think that’s where most things start going downhill I guess. And then elementary schoolers, well I think that this for me was the roughest one for me to learn about and understand. So a lot of the things in elementary schools, they actually don’t have as many people who are undocumented, just because the people who are entering these schools were already born in the U.S. because their parents were the ones who kind of brought them over or their parents were the ones that had to deal with in high school they were undocumented and things like that and so it’s interesting because there’s this new generation, that’s going to have to deal with these similar issues, but very different issues. So a lot of them are dealing with the fear of seeing a parent deported and the fear of what’s it like— how do you deal with living in a home where one of the parents is absent whether it’s divorce or they’re in Mexico or a Central American country or South American country and how do you teach kids to deal with this. It was a very touchy subject. It was very interesting to talk about with the counselors and just kind of understanding how they dealt with it and seeing how these elementary schoolers are responding to it. They had— something that really got me was the amount of suicide assessments that they do per year in the elementary schools. I was just like, “Whoa. I don’t even know how to respond to this.” Which I think was something that really got me. Just understanding the people at these schools are facing these kinds of issues. And it’s very much only in one school, which was also interesting because that school is heavily— almost entirely— Latinx whereas the other high school— the other elementary school— is almost entirely— well not almost entirely, it’s a bit more of an even mix between everyone. Between Latinx, White, Black. And so I thought that was also really interesting to see the disparities between the schools and kind of how the different schools responded. At least with the Latinx population, I can’t say anything about their black students or their white students and how they were reacting and how their health was and things like that. But yeah, that’s kind of—
RH: So, in Siler City how many main high schools are there? Is there just one, or?
EF: Yeah, so there’s only one high school in Siler City and there’s three high schools in the county.
RH: Okay
EF: One of them being in Siler City, another one being in Pittsboro, and the other one— I actually don’t know where Chatham Central is, but that’s the other one. And there’s one middle school that’s in Siler City, but then there’s a K-8 that’s in Silk Hope, which also isn’t that far. And usually Jordan Matthews takes in people from Silk Hope and Chatham Middle and there’s also a charter school that’s there that does K-10, which is really weird, but I think they’re expanding it to just be a K-12 school in Siler City, so that’s interesting to say the least. And then there are two elementary schools in Siler City and then of course Silk Hope that does— and a lot of other smaller elementary schools that are in the area, but most of the people that live in Siler City go to either Siler City Elementary or Virginia Cross Elementary or Silk Hope— that’s the other one.
RH: So as part of the research did you talk to counselors at a handful of the schools, or all of the schools, or only particular schools that you selected? Or I guess how did you go about that?
EF: Yeah, so I tried to focus on the schools that had high Latinx populations and then also if they were just in Siler City. So I interviewed people from Siler City, Virginia Cross, Chatham Middle, Jordan Matthews, Silk Hope? I don’t remember if I interviewed Silk Hope. I think I interviewed Silk Hope. No, I did not interview Silk Hope. And then I didn’t interview the charter school because there’s like two, maybe three Latinx people there, so that’s kind of how I based the selection for the interviews.
RH: [00:34:09] So let’s see. What has been a challenging aspect of your research experience? And when did you conduct— is this still ongoing or did you finish it up?
EF: So yeah I finished it up before exams started last semester.
RH: Okay.
EF: So I— what was the question before that?
RH: What was a challenging aspect of your research.
EF: A challenging aspect, yeah. So I think that the general technicalities of it were probably some of the most hardest parts. Like understanding how to conduct an interview and how to make sure that you’re not biased and making sure that you get sound information was one of the hardest parts of it. Just because this was my first time doing research and it was my first time doing research in general and I think that qualitative research is a whole different thing from quantitative research. And I think that quantitative research, while it’s more technical there’s more set guidelines for what to do and I think it’s a lot more easier to learn quantitative because you can analyze data and you can analyze doing that. But picking out themes in qualitative research and understanding how to come off socially, and kind of understanding— okay for example so with the whole suicide assessment thing. I had to be mindful of myself and not gasp or do anything because anything I might do might influence how they respond to the questions and I’m trying to get as unbiased as possible [inaudible]. Because I went to these schools and wanted to bring up certain things, but I knew I couldn’t because of the way it would be perceived by interviewers.
So, I think that part was also very difficult to manage, but I think the two things that probably got me the most were the suicide assessment part of the elementary schoolers and also the thing that was said in the focus group about the post-election kind of unfiltered language just because the counselors didn’t mention that. And I thought it was weird that they didn’t because I think that— and then again this is my biases coming in. I think that life is inherently political and life in any aspect is whatever you can, you can’t be apolitical in anything. And so understanding the way that our national political background is influencing the health of people and influencing the mental health of specific groups, I’m surprised that they didn’t mention it. And then whenever they brought it up in the focus group I was like ‘Ah, there is.’ I knew it was happening and it was affecting their health and whatnot, but I was like ‘Ah, okay talk more about this.’ So, understanding— well I don’t think understanding— but just thinking okay well what can be done from that perspective. There isn’t much that can be done from that perspective. Having teenagers cope with the political climate when not much can be done when he’s going to be there for like two and a half more years. I think those two are probably the hardest parts of reconciling with my research.
RH: So, when you’re conducting research it’s primarily interviews with the counselors and is the only time that you interacted with the kids during the focus groups? So I guess I’d be interested in hearing what the focus groups were like and how you use them to draw conclusions. Did you record them or how does that work?
EF: So the focus group was in conjunction with the main part of BIC. Which their main topics are civic engagement, leadership, and kind of town resources. And so, Jessica Lee asked me to do a little section at the back end and kind of come up with questions for the teenagers. Teenagers— I can’t believe I just said that. But anyway, the focus groups were completely anonymous so they weren’t recorded. There are notes on them, which I actually need to send— no that’s a different focus group just kidding. What was the question again?
RH: How did you use the focus groups?
EF: Yeah, and so I came up with questions from what I gathered from the interviews and okay let’s try and validate these, let’s see what students are perceiving to be the major health issues, mental health issues, and what services they perceive to be available. And so for them, the obvious gap between the counselors and the high school students— and this is just high school students that’s the thing also. So there are definitely gaps in my research that I wish I had time to do, but I didn’t have any.
RH: That’s my last question.
EF: And so, I— Oh shoot, where was I going with this. Words, come back.
RH: High school students, gaps between counselors and high school students.
EF: Okay yeah so the gaps between the high schoolers and counselors. So these services are available and they’re there, but I think that the perception between the systems coming to the counselors is very— they just don’t see them as an option really. And so while they see the counselors as friendly and they see them as a resource, they wouldn’t go to one. They wouldn’t actually go see a counselor if they needed help or they wouldn’t refer friends if they needed help. They knew about the major places to seek therapy, but there’s some kind of barrier that’s between actually going to see those services and so I wish that my research had gone a little bit more into why they weren’t just because it would better inform local policy and things like that, and then also understanding okay well how— and I think this is going to get into the larger BIC area— is understanding the political and understanding how the town of Siler City is going to take into account the new administration and how their perception is going to automatically change even though they have no relation to the presidency. But it will be interesting to see how the town of Siler City kind of manages that and how they try and service either a neutral stance or a counter stance to the presidency because I definitely don’t think that they would support anything involved with policies that are currently being emplaced by the Trump administration. But I definitely could see them taking a neutral stance like okay we don’t agree with this, we don’t disagree with this, but here’s what we’re going to do. Or they could go the complete opposite way and be like we disagree with this and here’s how we’re going to try to make this town more safe for immigrants and foreign—born people.
RH: [00:42:25] So you talked a little bit about this, but my last questions is what specifically would you be interested in looking into in the future, I guess in terms of— I mean this could turn into kind of a career question which we also talked about a little bit, or we could turn it into more of a gaps in research and things you wish you had more time to do kind of question. So if you wanted to reflect on that a little bit more.
EF: I think that for sure at least with my research I really wish I had interviewed more students, and kind of gotten the perspective of students, but that’s really hard to do from an ethical standpoint because these people are underage and you’re dealing with a very sensitive topic so it’s very difficult to get their perspective on things and yeah so I wish I had found a way to get a better perspective of students and how they perceive mental health. And then also— nothing that’s it. I think that’s probably my biggest wish that I had done. And then I guess in terms of career questions and things like that. I don’t know. So when I went into the program I was very much interested in three very specific things: global health, mental health, and access to care. While I still care about those things, I have found that I am interested in a lot more than I originally anticipated. I’m very interested in rural health and seeing how the rural urban divide kind of affects people’s physical, mental, emotional, social health and things like that. And so I think it’d be really interesting to integrate this already really vulnerable population of rural people and further stratify it to well how do ethnic minorities and racial minorities fit into this and what kind of future model of health and delivery model and things like that kind of fit into addressing their needs and their kind of very different needs from rural Americans in general. And then also understanding how we’re currently in this interesting development of a mental health system and understanding okay what can we do to further better the current system that we have in place and how can we make it more accessible and how can we encourage people to go see a therapist regularly and things like that. Because it’s interesting to see how we value physical health a lot more than mental health and how you’re encouraged to go see a primary care doctor at least once a year and you get a yearly checkup but we’re not supposed to go see a psychiatrist every year for a yearly checkup and things like that, so research in that area would be cool.
RH: We’ll that’s it, those are all my questions so thank you so much for being here.
EF: No problem.
RH: Alright.
END OF INTERVIEW
[00:46:04]
Transcribed by Rebecca Heine on April 4, 2018
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Estudiantes
Es: Género de entrevistado
Hombre
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Eddy Fernandez es un estudiante de UNC-Chapel Hill quien habla de la experiencia de la inmigración de su familia de Texas a Siler City, Carolina del Norte. Él también habla de su experiencia viviendo en una región muy rural en Siler City con una gran población de latinos. Fernandez explica como la gran presencia de problemas de la salud mental que él ha visto en sus amigos ha tenido un impacto en su carrera en la salud pública. Fernandez también habla de su participación en el proyecto “Construyendo Comunidades Integradas con el gobierno local de Siler City para investigar los recursos de la salud mental para jóvenes.
Es: Temas
Racismo y discriminación; Salud; Redes Sociales; Educación Superior; Comunidades Receptoras
Es: Transcripción
Rebecca Heine: Hi this is Rebecca here interviewing Eddy Fernandez. Eddy do you consent to this interview?
Eddy Fernandez: Yes.
RH: Cool, let’s get started by you telling me about your year in school and what you’re studying.
EF: Yeah, so I’m a Junior so Class of 2019 and I’m studying Health Policy and Management in the School of Public Health here at UNC.
RH: [00:00:40] Okay, what do you see yourself doing career—wise in the future?
EF: That’s a very good question. I would say actually that I have a fairly decent idea of what I want to do. I eventually want to go either into research or into the health policy world and so kind of focusing on a career that would let me work on addressing health disparities and working on health systems either in the state or federal level. What that looks like exactly? I don’t know. It could be like working for a federal agency or it could be working for a state agency or it could be working at a research place like UNC and putting out more information about where the issues are in health disparities, what’s causing them and things like that and possible ways to address them. That’s kind of a broad overview of what I want to do and that’s probably all I can do honestly— broad.
RH: I gotcha. Have you enjoyed your first year through the Gillings program?
EF: Yeah oh my gosh I love Gillings so much. It’s a bit of a pain sometimes I will admit that. But this past week actually I had six or seven things due this one week actually because my professors decided to jam it all before Easter apparently. So it’s been really good because it’s very focused on health and health care and what’s it’s like here in the U.S. and kind of understanding how does the Federal Government and State Government interact to provide health insurance to people and how that affects their health and what other determinants affect whether or not someone’s living a health life like housing, income, things like that. So it’s been a really interesting year so far and I’ve learned a lot. It’s definitely— I don’t want to say changed my perspective, but it’s influenced how I think about health and how I perceive what is healthy, who starts off as healthy, and kind of thinking well what factors go into that.
RH: [00:02:54] Cool, so I was hoping you would get into describing your family life and your family’s immigration experience.
EF: Yeah, so I am an only child, which is very rare for Latinos, but— let’s see. I’m from Siler City first of all. I have half of my family here in Siler City. By here in Siler City I mean back home. Not like here in Chapel Hill. Whatever, it doesn’t matter. The other half are in Texas, Southern Texas, in a place called Alamo, which is a border city that’s literally, I think twenty minutes from Reynosa, which is in Tamaulipas the state. So, I lived at home with my mom and my stepdad. They— I’m trying to think of where to go from here. So they met each other when I think I was seven or eight so they’ve been together for more than half my life and so I’ve known him for a very long time. And then my other family who’s in North Carolina— it’s one of my aunts her name is Esperanza and she has also lived there her entire life and then my other aunt who lives in— not in Siler City necessarily, but she lives in High Point— they used to live in Siler City and then they moved to Chicago, and then they moved to Miami, and then they moved back to Siler City and then moved back to High Point. So they have been there in North Carolina for a good while, but not too long. And so the way that they immigrated here is really interesting actually. Originally from my family a lot of them are actually citizens so the only people that aren’t citizens are the three oldest in my family which is one of my aunts that lives in Texas, one of my uncles that lives in Texas and then my Mom. All three of them have their residency. So the way that they moved is that originally they lived in Alamo, they lived in McAllen and so they would go back and forth between Texas and Reynosa, which is again like twenty minutes from there and then eventually one of my aunts— the oldest one actually— moved to Siler City for— I actually don’t remember the reason why. But she eventually kind of brought over another aunt and my Mom and then ended up bringing one of my uncles over and then my aunt that had moved there originally decided that she didn’t like living in North Carolina so then she moved back to Texas. And then my uncle moved back to Texas and then another aunt came up to North Carolina so it was just a huge swapping motion and what not, but the reason that they came up was because of work and because of a poultry plant that was in Siler City. It was Townsend. And so they ended up just liking it here and so they decided to stay in North Carolina and Siler City specifically and they just kind of made their life here. My Mom worked for a little bit at a fabrics place and then she switched over to this manufacturing company that’s in Siler City that manufactures different plastics for different parts and then she’s been there for I don’t even know like sixteen, seventeen, eighteen years around there. Definitely like most of my life. Yeah, the poultry plant had closed down a while ago and both of my aunts ended up quitting before they closed. They did work there for a little while and that’s kind of what brought them to Siler City. So it’s just a lot of crossing over and traveling back and forth between these random family ties that you wouldn’t have guessed that they moved here to Siler City for something, but they did.
RH: What does your stepdad do?
EF: Yeah, so my stepdad, he works in a warehouse and he kind of just keeps up that warehouse and he establishes and kind of physically helps build office spaces. And he does that in Raleigh and Durham and for the office spaces it kind of depends on where they have him go it could be in Raleigh, Durham, he could be in Charlotte one day. A lot of traveling for him.
RH: [00:07:50] So I was hoping you would discuss you experience growing up in rural North Carolina and your and your family’s experience being part of the greater Latinx community there.
EF: Yeah, so could you repeat the question again.
RH: So, what was your experience growing up in rural North Carolina and being part of the greater Latinx community there.
EF: So I think in my head I grew up in rural North Carolina, but I don’t think I grew up in a traditional thinking of rural North Carolina because Siler City is like sixty or seventy percent Latinx. And so I think that I did grow up in a very rural area, but not in traditional rural areas like Ramseur, Asheboro or things like that, something with a higher population of white Americans. So I think growing up specifically in Siler City, which is coming next but I’ll talk about the rural part first, is interesting because there is this aspect where it’s kind of fun to poke at rural North Carolina and then being part of rural North Carolina, but you definitely see the kind of— and I definitely have realized it more that I’ve been here and I’ve kind of learned about the rural urban divide. But kind of seeing the lack of opportunities in rural areas and seeing the way that rural communities are set up— not necessarily to fail, but there’s scarce opportunity for people to be like socially mobile. I can’t think of that word now, you know what I’m talking about? Okay. Yeah and so of course me and my friends would always pick at ‘Oh let’s go hang out at the Walmart that’s our mall’ you know whatever and we’d have to drive thirty or forty minutes to get anywhere for fun so me and my friends did a lot of bonfires and we just hung out at the McDonalds and just did random stuff at each other’s houses. But kind of seeing— moving away from Siler City and getting an outside perspective of the short time that I’ve been here it’s been really interesting because I would say that from my high school not that many pursued higher education and I would say that’s because there just wasn’t much to do in Siler City. There just was not much educational opportunities slash ways to stay involved slash ways to also just grow as a person because you’re very much exposed to the same thing every single day. So I mean like— some people enjoy that. They like living in rural areas because it’s their thing and some people it’s like there’s nothing to do here so let’s go do xyz instead. And xyz isn’t necessarily good for the most part. So seeing that and also when you intersect the fact that the majority of the people there are Latinx and then you think about the history of Siler City. The history of Siler City is very interesting when you see the shift in the influx of Latinxes coming in in the late 1990’s and early 2000’s and you see how KKK rallies were hosted in Siler City at one point and the grand dragon was there for a little bit. And it’s funny because I was actually talking to my Mom about this a while ago and— well to give a little bit of context I’m very much involved in the Campus Y and I do a lot of the protesting and things like that and I was talking to my Mom one day and I like straight up asked her, I was like ‘Have you every been to a protest?’ And she was like, ‘Yeah I think I went to one in the early 2000’s that was against the KKK’ and I was like ‘what Mom?’ I asked her so much about it I don’t know and the history of Siler City is really interesting because it wasn’t interracial until this influx has happened and it wasn’t always a racially accepting town and I still would say it’s not. I mean, it’s made a lot of progress for sure, but there’s still a lot of issues in Siler City regarding how they treat Latinxes and so when you intersect that with the issues that a lot of Latinx people face it gets even more stark for the people that live in these rural areas like you have to worry about like okay where am I going to work, does that place allow me to work without papers, what about English and what about accessing services and what happens if I can’t pay my bills and who do I go to for that and things like that. So I think growing up in Siler City and seeing kind of the effects of racial disparities and income disparities and things like that and seeing the rural urban divide while I’ve been here has been a big push on why I’m interested in health disparities because literally everything that a person does is affecting their health and affecting how they live and what not so I think that’s why I’m very interested in health disparities and I think that’s why I pursued health policy and management. And I think that’s why I’m going to pursue research or health policy when I graduate.
RH: So when you said that influx of Latinx coming into Siler City, was that for the poultry plant?
EF: Yeah, so a lot of it was for the poultry plant that was there. It was Townsend and they would hire— I don’t know if they would actually use— I can’t remember the name of the Visa now, but it was the work Visa thing and I don’t know if they actually hired people from that or if they just had a few people that worked there that were Latinx and just kind of brought their families over just by word of mouth, but a lot of that was because of the poultry plant. And out right now there’s – well while it closed down two or three years ago there’s actually another one that’s opening up next yearish so it will be interesting to see how that affects migration patterns again in Siler City.
RH: Interesting. So you mentioned that you think that Siler City has a long way to go in terms of definitely having some issues of discrimination against the Latinx community, so I guess I was hoping you would talk a little more about instances of that or talk a little bit more about why you specifically think that Siler City needs to improve in certain aspects.
EF: I don’t know, I think a lot of it has to do with the historical and what’s happened already and the lack of trust that there is between the Latinx population in Siler city and the greater government in general whether it be local, police force, state government, things like that. But specifically instances— my parents have said so and I’ve kind of felt the same way is whenever police kind of follow and pull over people and they’ll set up checkpoints in very specific areas and areas that they know are home to a large population of the Latino population in Siler City. They’ll put them in strategic areas at strategic times like when people are going to work, coming home from work, when people are dropping their kids at school, so it’s very— it’s the worst. I was going to use a different word, but I probably shouldn’t. But they set them up in these areas— and they’ve been better about not setting up as many checkpoints in the past year or two and I think— I was an intern at the health department last summer and so I was talking a bit to the people there and they were telling me about how the chief had taken a trip to— I can’t remember where in Mexico and just kind of learned about migrants and their experiences and why they come to the US and specifically Siler City because a lot of the migrants are from— I can’t remember if there are a lot from Guadalajara or somewhere else I can’t remember, but just kind of learning what larger forces are bringing them in. I want to say that trip really influenced him in that he hasn’t put check points in as many areas and granted they’re still going to have to put some checkpoints because it’s what they do, but not as heavy in very specific areas and I don’t know it’s been interesting to see how that change has happened and see how my family perceives it because they’ve definitely noticed it too. They remember six or seven years ago that they’d put a checkpoint every other week, like every month at least and it’s been a while since I’ve seen one at least and it’s been a while since they’ve seen one. It’s funny— I think I’ve noticed it more that I’ve started driving like when I was seventeen or eighteen when I actually started driving a lot on my own, but whenever I’d see a checkpoint I’d immediately freeze up and get really nervous and just being like ‘okay why am I nervous, why am I doing this, why am I having this reaction.’ And I think a lot of it stems from the way that I saw my parents perceive checkpoints and the way that my family perceived checkpoints and just kind of attributing that to ‘Okay, something bad is going to happen as soon as I walk in here and have my license read.’
RH: Okay, interesting. So you started talking about this, but how to you believe that your experience has impacted your research and career path. You’ve gotten into this a little bit.
EF: Yes. Like I said, going back to how health isn’t just receiving medical care and it’s not just the process of going to the doctor or getting a check up and what not. It’s important to do that, but that’s only twenty percent of what contributes to health. Everything else is up to the social determinants of health. What’s your housing like? What’s your income like? What kind of access to food do you have? Are they healthy foods? What about access to gyms and things like that. So, understanding okay there are a ton of different things that influence health and I think that’s a big reason why I want to pursue research and policy in that. It’s like we’re not going to— okay so a quick background about this— so the U.S. spends the most on healthcare, but we have the worst health outcomes compared to any other developed country. A lot of that is because we don’t take into account the effects of housing and income and things like that and racial disparities and how that affects people’s social mobility and how that affects health. I think that for me I’m extremely interested in social determinants, but I’m also really interested in mental health and how social determinants affect mental health. So I think that as soon as I heard that Siler city had gotten the BIC grant thing I went up to Hannah and Jessica Lee and said ‘Hey is there anyway that I can help with this. This is in my home town and I think it would be really great to work on this’ and they were like ‘yeah sure that would be great if you could’ and they were very open to me just kind of doing my own project and running with it. So I was like well let me see how mental health is perceived slash what kind of services are available for youth in Siler city and so— what was the question again? I want to make sure that I’m not straying.
RH: [00:21:18] How do you believe that your experience has impacted your research and career path. And then if you want, I mean the next question is discuss your research with me so if you want to start getting into that because I know they’re interrelated then go for it.
EF: Yeah, I’ll go a little bit and do the reasons why.
RH: Okay, perfect.
EF: I think the reasons why are a lot because of what I experienced in high school and seeing a lot of different friends dealing with mental health issues and a lot of them not pursuing help until after they graduated or have yet to pursue any help. I have a couple friends who went through major episodes of depression and major episodes of mania and a lot of people who self—harmed and things like that so I think seeing that and seeing a lot of it really was the reason why I wanted to do the research and kind of understanding okay what kind of resources are available there, what is the gap. What are the reasons this is happening first of all and what can be done to address these things and so for me I want to I guess get to the root of it, but understand what can be done from a policy perspective and what are things that local government can do. And that’s the whole thing about BIC, it’s leveraging local governments to impact local communities and also better integrating these migrant populations into local government and mental health is a part of that so I wanted to explore that in the research I did and I guess I’ll go ahead and start talking about the research itself.
RH: Go for it!
EF: So the way that it worked was that I interviewed school counselors and kind of got their perspective on okay what kind of things are offered within the school system and what kind of things are you seeing most of and how are people coming to you, what are they telling you and things like that. And so at least from what I’ve gathered there’s a good system in place in regards to people who can go to them and get the services that they need, but I think that from the research that I saw and what I gathered not many people are using them. They are being used pretty frequently, but not to the extent to which I feel like they should be. They have these in—school counselors, and then they have in—school therapists, and in school therapy, and then they do referrals and I don’t know they have a lot of different mechanisms from which they can refer people to if they should need do and so I think that’s really good, but – and this is the case for almost all schools really— counseling and support services are severely under—resourced and they don’t have the necessary tools to deal with these pressing issues and so I found out that there are these services that are available and a lot of the people that do come in tend to be kind of really worried about what’s going to happen post high—school amongst the high schoolers— I guess I’ll go through for every grade—ish. And so in high schoolers people are generally worried about what’s going to happen post grad like where am I going to go, what am I going to do, what kind of things are available to me. Because a lot of the people in Siler city, at least it was previously— I actually don’t know about it now because I’ll talk about it with elementary schoolers in a bit, but a lot of them are undocumented so they’re just worried about what kind of things are open to me, what kind of things post grad so they get into this kind of mindset of like there’s nothing out there for me and in some instances it’s validated. There aren’t too many things that are out there for undocumented people. There’s limited resources and it’s a very stark reality and it sucks and that’s one of the reasons why a lot of people go to like that.
And another thing is also just the general— well general’s not the right word, but dealing with self—esteem issues and things that every high schooler goes through and then having that further amplified through racial inequalities and things like that and it’s funny because another part of the research was doing a focus group with youth and I was able to do a little session with them about that and something that they had said that I was not prepared for was the effects of this past election on how they’re treated amongst their white peers and the specific quote that I was thinking of was that there’s no filter anymore. People will just go through the school yelling random things and yell racial slurs and things like that and then just thinking about how that affects them mentally and how that affects their home life and things like that. And just understanding that these people are facing the normal, in quotation marks, strains of teenage life, like self—esteem issues, just understanding where your place is amongst your friend groups, dealing with who am I as a person, but then also having to deal with how do I fit into this specific niche of ethnic populations and how do power relations play into that and so that’s kind of how that was there. And also a lot of people dealing with home issues like domestic violence, interpersonal violence with peers and relationship kind of stuff was also— a lot of people came in for that.
And then in middle schoolers, they have a lot of the same issues as high schoolers, but it’s actually really interesting to see how it’s not as bad. At least from what I gathered from what the data had told me was that it seems like there are a lot more support systems in place at the middle school level than any other level really and that they have a lot more services and availability for if they need to go talk to counselors or if they have issues with things. Which I thought was really interesting given that it’s middle school level. Just from past experience I think that’s where most things start going downhill I guess. And then elementary schoolers, well I think that this for me was the roughest one for me to learn about and understand. So a lot of the things in elementary schools, they actually don’t have as many people who are undocumented, just because the people who are entering these schools were already born in the U.S. because their parents were the ones who kind of brought them over or their parents were the ones that had to deal with in high school they were undocumented and things like that and so it’s interesting because there’s this new generation, that’s going to have to deal with these similar issues, but very different issues. So a lot of them are dealing with the fear of seeing a parent deported and the fear of what’s it like— how do you deal with living in a home where one of the parents is absent whether it’s divorce or they’re in Mexico or a Central American country or South American country and how do you teach kids to deal with this. It was a very touchy subject. It was very interesting to talk about with the counselors and just kind of understanding how they dealt with it and seeing how these elementary schoolers are responding to it. They had— something that really got me was the amount of suicide assessments that they do per year in the elementary schools. I was just like, “Whoa. I don’t even know how to respond to this.” Which I think was something that really got me. Just understanding the people at these schools are facing these kinds of issues. And it’s very much only in one school, which was also interesting because that school is heavily— almost entirely— Latinx whereas the other high school— the other elementary school— is almost entirely— well not almost entirely, it’s a bit more of an even mix between everyone. Between Latinx, White, Black. And so I thought that was also really interesting to see the disparities between the schools and kind of how the different schools responded. At least with the Latinx population, I can’t say anything about their black students or their white students and how they were reacting and how their health was and things like that. But yeah, that’s kind of—
RH: So, in Siler City how many main high schools are there? Is there just one, or?
EF: Yeah, so there’s only one high school in Siler City and there’s three high schools in the county.
RH: Okay
EF: One of them being in Siler City, another one being in Pittsboro, and the other one— I actually don’t know where Chatham Central is, but that’s the other one. And there’s one middle school that’s in Siler City, but then there’s a K-8 that’s in Silk Hope, which also isn’t that far. And usually Jordan Matthews takes in people from Silk Hope and Chatham Middle and there’s also a charter school that’s there that does K-10, which is really weird, but I think they’re expanding it to just be a K-12 school in Siler City, so that’s interesting to say the least. And then there are two elementary schools in Siler City and then of course Silk Hope that does— and a lot of other smaller elementary schools that are in the area, but most of the people that live in Siler City go to either Siler City Elementary or Virginia Cross Elementary or Silk Hope— that’s the other one.
RH: So as part of the research did you talk to counselors at a handful of the schools, or all of the schools, or only particular schools that you selected? Or I guess how did you go about that?
EF: Yeah, so I tried to focus on the schools that had high Latinx populations and then also if they were just in Siler City. So I interviewed people from Siler City, Virginia Cross, Chatham Middle, Jordan Matthews, Silk Hope? I don’t remember if I interviewed Silk Hope. I think I interviewed Silk Hope. No, I did not interview Silk Hope. And then I didn’t interview the charter school because there’s like two, maybe three Latinx people there, so that’s kind of how I based the selection for the interviews.
RH: [00:34:09] So let’s see. What has been a challenging aspect of your research experience? And when did you conduct— is this still ongoing or did you finish it up?
EF: So yeah I finished it up before exams started last semester.
RH: Okay.
EF: So I— what was the question before that?
RH: What was a challenging aspect of your research.
EF: A challenging aspect, yeah. So I think that the general technicalities of it were probably some of the most hardest parts. Like understanding how to conduct an interview and how to make sure that you’re not biased and making sure that you get sound information was one of the hardest parts of it. Just because this was my first time doing research and it was my first time doing research in general and I think that qualitative research is a whole different thing from quantitative research. And I think that quantitative research, while it’s more technical there’s more set guidelines for what to do and I think it’s a lot more easier to learn quantitative because you can analyze data and you can analyze doing that. But picking out themes in qualitative research and understanding how to come off socially, and kind of understanding— okay for example so with the whole suicide assessment thing. I had to be mindful of myself and not gasp or do anything because anything I might do might influence how they respond to the questions and I’m trying to get as unbiased as possible [inaudible]. Because I went to these schools and wanted to bring up certain things, but I knew I couldn’t because of the way it would be perceived by interviewers.
So, I think that part was also very difficult to manage, but I think the two things that probably got me the most were the suicide assessment part of the elementary schoolers and also the thing that was said in the focus group about the post-election kind of unfiltered language just because the counselors didn’t mention that. And I thought it was weird that they didn’t because I think that— and then again this is my biases coming in. I think that life is inherently political and life in any aspect is whatever you can, you can’t be apolitical in anything. And so understanding the way that our national political background is influencing the health of people and influencing the mental health of specific groups, I’m surprised that they didn’t mention it. And then whenever they brought it up in the focus group I was like ‘Ah, there is.’ I knew it was happening and it was affecting their health and whatnot, but I was like ‘Ah, okay talk more about this.’ So, understanding— well I don’t think understanding— but just thinking okay well what can be done from that perspective. There isn’t much that can be done from that perspective. Having teenagers cope with the political climate when not much can be done when he’s going to be there for like two and a half more years. I think those two are probably the hardest parts of reconciling with my research.
RH: So, when you’re conducting research it’s primarily interviews with the counselors and is the only time that you interacted with the kids during the focus groups? So I guess I’d be interested in hearing what the focus groups were like and how you use them to draw conclusions. Did you record them or how does that work?
EF: So the focus group was in conjunction with the main part of BIC. Which their main topics are civic engagement, leadership, and kind of town resources. And so, Jessica Lee asked me to do a little section at the back end and kind of come up with questions for the teenagers. Teenagers— I can’t believe I just said that. But anyway, the focus groups were completely anonymous so they weren’t recorded. There are notes on them, which I actually need to send— no that’s a different focus group just kidding. What was the question again?
RH: How did you use the focus groups?
EF: Yeah, and so I came up with questions from what I gathered from the interviews and okay let’s try and validate these, let’s see what students are perceiving to be the major health issues, mental health issues, and what services they perceive to be available. And so for them, the obvious gap between the counselors and the high school students— and this is just high school students that’s the thing also. So there are definitely gaps in my research that I wish I had time to do, but I didn’t have any.
RH: That’s my last question.
EF: And so, I— Oh shoot, where was I going with this. Words, come back.
RH: High school students, gaps between counselors and high school students.
EF: Okay yeah so the gaps between the high schoolers and counselors. So these services are available and they’re there, but I think that the perception between the systems coming to the counselors is very— they just don’t see them as an option really. And so while they see the counselors as friendly and they see them as a resource, they wouldn’t go to one. They wouldn’t actually go see a counselor if they needed help or they wouldn’t refer friends if they needed help. They knew about the major places to seek therapy, but there’s some kind of barrier that’s between actually going to see those services and so I wish that my research had gone a little bit more into why they weren’t just because it would better inform local policy and things like that, and then also understanding okay well how— and I think this is going to get into the larger BIC area— is understanding the political and understanding how the town of Siler City is going to take into account the new administration and how their perception is going to automatically change even though they have no relation to the presidency. But it will be interesting to see how the town of Siler City kind of manages that and how they try and service either a neutral stance or a counter stance to the presidency because I definitely don’t think that they would support anything involved with policies that are currently being emplaced by the Trump administration. But I definitely could see them taking a neutral stance like okay we don’t agree with this, we don’t disagree with this, but here’s what we’re going to do. Or they could go the complete opposite way and be like we disagree with this and here’s how we’re going to try to make this town more safe for immigrants and foreign—born people.
RH: [00:42:25] So you talked a little bit about this, but my last questions is what specifically would you be interested in looking into in the future, I guess in terms of— I mean this could turn into kind of a career question which we also talked about a little bit, or we could turn it into more of a gaps in research and things you wish you had more time to do kind of question. So if you wanted to reflect on that a little bit more.
EF: I think that for sure at least with my research I really wish I had interviewed more students, and kind of gotten the perspective of students, but that’s really hard to do from an ethical standpoint because these people are underage and you’re dealing with a very sensitive topic so it’s very difficult to get their perspective on things and yeah so I wish I had found a way to get a better perspective of students and how they perceive mental health. And then also— nothing that’s it. I think that’s probably my biggest wish that I had done. And then I guess in terms of career questions and things like that. I don’t know. So when I went into the program I was very much interested in three very specific things: global health, mental health, and access to care. While I still care about those things, I have found that I am interested in a lot more than I originally anticipated. I’m very interested in rural health and seeing how the rural urban divide kind of affects people’s physical, mental, emotional, social health and things like that. And so I think it’d be really interesting to integrate this already really vulnerable population of rural people and further stratify it to well how do ethnic minorities and racial minorities fit into this and what kind of future model of health and delivery model and things like that kind of fit into addressing their needs and their kind of very different needs from rural Americans in general. And then also understanding how we’re currently in this interesting development of a mental health system and understanding okay what can we do to further better the current system that we have in place and how can we make it more accessible and how can we encourage people to go see a therapist regularly and things like that. Because it’s interesting to see how we value physical health a lot more than mental health and how you’re encouraged to go see a primary care doctor at least once a year and you get a yearly checkup but we’re not supposed to go see a psychiatrist every year for a yearly checkup and things like that, so research in that area would be cool.
RH: We’ll that’s it, those are all my questions so thank you so much for being here.
EF: No problem.
RH: Alright.
END OF INTERVIEW
[00:46:04]
Transcribed by Rebecca Heine on April 4, 2018
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
Es: Citación
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-0901 -- Fernandez, Eduardo.
Description
An account of the resource
Eddy Fernandez is a 3rd-year student at UNC-Chapel Hill who discusses his family’s experience immigrating to Siler City, North Carolina from Texas for employment in the Townsend Chicken Processing Plant. He also discusses his experience growing up in Siler City, a rural area that was primarily Latinx/Latino/Latina. Fernandez explains the way in which the large presence of mental health issues related to migration that he witnessed among his friends growing up has impacted his career choice in the field of public health. Fernandez discusses how he conducted a research project in 2017 on youth mental health as part of the Building Integrated Communities Initiative with the Town of Siler City.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
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2018-04-05
Format
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R0901_Audio.mp3
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/27563">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/2c5f56e1d21d3250a16ac3ade5cc48df.mp3
280d7a5f7f1d2a97b594ad10b8ce02f1
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/3bb69a8acc51d8c4f6d9997a47c3a131.pdf
43a0920b415937dba057b572c87e4121
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0812
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
25 February 2015
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Mack, Julia Cardona.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Professors
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Puerto Rico
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
North Carolina
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Gutt, Katie.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Spanish
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Julia Mack is a Spanish professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Mack was born in Puerto Rico and moved to the United States to study for her Masters degree. She has taught at three colleges and universities in North Carolina, including UNC where she has taught for the past twenty years. Mack discusses her choice to become a professor and how her father was a role model for the profession. She identifies as Hispanic, but feels that she is a minority in her profession more for being a female and a mother than for her ethnicity. As a professor, she believes that her most important roles are showing Hispanic students that a career in academia is possible and serving as a resource for her colleagues in the Department of Romance Studies. Mack closes the first interview by sharing a few examples of how she has fostered relationships with Hispanic students by showing them that their Hispanic heritage is something to be proud of. In the second interview, Mack describes being an “immigrant by luxury.” She talks about studying for her Masters in California and later returning to teach at the university level. She says that her greatest challenge has been creating interactive classes and her greatest success was starting a program of language maintenance courses for Spanish-speaking students at UNC. She closes her second interview by advising future professors to foster students’ curiosity and to resist the university becoming too much like a business.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Julia Mack by Katie Gutt, 25 February 2015, R-0812, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/26896
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Racism and discrimination; Higher Education; Gender; University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Katie Gutt: Yo soy Katie Gutt y estoy acá con la Profesora Julia Mack. Hoy es el 25 de febrero del 2015. Estamos en la oficina de la Profesora Mack. Vamos a hablar hoy de su experiencia como profesora hispana en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Julia Mack: Hola, Katie.
KG: Y Profesora Mack, donde nació Ud.?
JM: Yo nací en Puerto Rico.
KG: Bueno. Y vivía en otra parte de Estados Unidos. antes de venir a Carolina del Norte?
JM: Bueno, para mis estudios graduados estuve dos años en California.
KG: Y que estudió?
JM: Estudié lingüística.
KG: Y porque vino Ud. a Carolina del Norte?
JM: Bueno, cuando vine estaba casada con un señor que -- que era ingeniero y trabajaba para ITT y la compañía lo trajo aquí y vine con él con mis niños.
KG: Bueno, y ahora vamos a hablar de su experiencia en la educación. Y quería saber ¿cómo se involucró en el sistema educativo?
JM: Bueno, yo siempre he trabajado al nivel universitario con excepción de un año que traté de ser profesora de high school. Y fallé miserablemente, no sirvo para eso. Y me involucré en este campo porqué prácticamente nací en el. Mi padre fue profesor universitario por mucho tiempo. Y cuando yo nací profesor universitario. Cuando yo estudié en la--mis estudios pregraduados él me--me indicó que era un buen--una buena profesión. Y fue un buen modelo, que profesor fue muy querido, fue muy respetado. Y para mi fue una, así como, pues, natural?
KG: Y, Ud. se identifica como hispana?
JM: Sí. Sí.
KG: Y qué significa eso para Ud.?
JM: Bueno, más que nada significa que hablo español. Y que formo una parte de una comunidad de hispanohablantes de diferentes tipos, de diferentes orígenes, pero que por alguna razón compartimos este idioma. Y por lo tanto tenemos cierta historia y vivencias comunes que nos hacen hermanos de una forma.
KG: Y, como Ud. es profesor--profesora hispana, se considera una minoría en su profesión?
JM: Oh, sí, absolutamente.
KG: Y acá en la facultad?
JM: Bueno, en esta facultad, fíjate no tanto. Porque en este departamento precisamente, eh, la mayoría de la gente es minoría de alguna forma. Somos expertos en varias--que nadie más habla, o lo que hablan no lo enseñan, y por lo tanto nos han escogido, para ser parte de esta facultad precisamente porque somos parte de esa minoría. Así que aquí no.
KG: Y, en la profesión, se considera una minoría en la profesión de ser educador?
JM: Bueno, fíjate, en mi--yo me siento que soy una minoría en la profesión de académicos universitarios en Norteamérica. Pero no necesariamente porque enseño español, sino es porque, ni incluso porque enseño lingüística, sino quizás porque soy una mujer, una madre, y mayor de edad. Que la mayoría de los profesores tienden a ser hombres, que también las mujeres que enseñan en este ambiente suelen ser mujeres sin niños porque no les da el tiempo para tener todo (se ríe). Y yo no quise negarme a mi misma nada. Y, y quizás también después de cierto tiempo se cansan y se van. Y yo me he quedado porque me gusta. Entonces, por estas razones siento más minoría que por ser hispana.
KG: Y, puede Ud. describir su trabajo con la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill?
JM: Y cuál aspecto de esto? Porque mira que es amplio. Y son veinte años!
KG: Como profesora primero? Y después los otros roles que tene--que tiene en la facultad.
JM: Bueno, mi rol primario es como profesora. Y sobre todo, me parece que, como en el aspecto que tengo mayor impacto, quizás si tengo alguno, es en presentar para mis estudiantes la hispanidad. Lo que puede ser una persona hispana que tiene, que llega a tener estos niveles de--de desarrollo intelectual. Me parece que para mis estudiantes hispanohablantes, represento una posibilidad que quizás no se han considerado. Y eso para mi es muy importante. Es de dejar la puerta de mi oficina abierta todo el tiempo para que vengan. Los que pasan por ahí entran para saludar y se quedan hablando, eso es muy importante para mi también. Contestar los correos que recibo, sean los que sean entre más triviales. Igual, no me importa tampoco contestarlos con anima a mis estudiantes dejándoles saber que estoy muy orgullosa de ellos y que los estoy esperando que sean personas de valor. Todo eso para mi es lo más importante.
KG: Um, y, tiene Ud. otros roles en la universidad, como ser líder o consejera de algunos clubes o organizaciones?
JM: Sí, hay varios. Pero sin embargo, también aquí en lo que más en--lo que más rápidamente me viene a la mente no es ser faculty advisor para Mezcla o para un grupo. Ultimate frisbee team, I'm their faculty advisor. Sino, lo que me viene a la mente más que nada es mi relación con mis colegas. Y la--mi capacidad por mi experiencia y mis conocimientos de servirles de recurso. Yo tengo amigos que vienen aquí con preguntas esotéricas de gramática (se ríe). "Julia contéstame esto que tú siempre me contestas bien!" Y cuando no tengo una buena contestación le digo mañana te la digo. Y busco entre mis libros de gramática y demás para ayudarlos hacer su trabajo. Y eso para mi es muy valioso, esa colegialidad que se establece cuando una ha estado cierto tiempo aquí. Y cuando los demás se dan cuenta que tú no estás compitiendo con ellos, que realmente estas aquí para ayudarlos. Y que, te place servirles de recurso.
KG: Y, la próxima pregunta tiene más que ver con la experiencia de ser profesora hispana, que sea la identidad más importante o no, Ud. que piensa, o ¿piensa que cómo es diferente la experiencia en comparación con la experiencia de sus colegas que no son hispanos?
JM: Pues, la verdad no sabría. Que yo no sé como es la experiencia de los otros, no. Así que será más difícil al contrastar, como será la experiencia de los compañeros que se sienten, que vienen a, por ejemplo enseñar español desde la perspectiva de que se considera la segunda lengua, una lengua aprendida más bien que con la que nacieron o que aprendieron en casa. Así que, no sé, no sé como, como contrastarlo. Pero si, te puedo decir que hoy por ejemplo como hubo una reunión frente a Wilson Library de todos los adjuncts, todos los profesores que están aquí. Y yo soy uno de ellos. No soy tenure track. Así para mi esa, a pesar de que a mi nunca me he sentido, nunca me he sentido frágil, o vulnerable. Siempre me he sentido segura en mi trabajo, porque sé que trabajo bien. Y siempre que he tenido la posibilidad de renovar el contrato. Lo--las organizaciones, la universidad donde han estado lo han hecho rápidamente, lo han hecho por mucho tiempo y me han tratado bien. Pero, sé que al no ser profesora--que la jerarquía pesa. Que la jerarquía en un--en este trabajo, como en muchos otros trabajos, la jerarquía se hará resentirse, se hace, se hace presente. Y que, cuando tu estas en la parte más baja de la escalera, pues, um, puede sentirte en peligro, menos por la--me compara las posibilidades. Yo nunca me he sentido así, pero siempre he apoyado a esas colegas que se sientan de esa manera. Estaba allí hoy en la Wilson Library porque pensé que era importante que viera--que viera gente ahí, que respondiéramos a eso.
KG: Y es algo que entiende por su experiencia o por su tiempo acá, por sus años acá?
JM: No, eso entiendo, el que--tu quieres decir el querer ser, querer apoyar a una causa, o no entiendo la pregunta muy bien.
KG: Bueno...
JM: Es decir que sí... Que lo que creo...
KG: Es sentir como vulnerable es algo que no se siente por los años acá, por su tiempo acá?
JM: No, yo creo que el no sentirme vulnerable tiene que ver con el sentirme muy segura en mi propio conocimiento. Es saber que lo que yo sé, lo--me ha tomado tiempo de adquirirlo, y lo he hecho con mucho trabajo y que es solido y bueno. Y por lo tanto, que no tengo que temer el que me acuse o que se me critique porque no hay razón. Es decir, yo creo que es una cuestión muy personal. El sentirse o no sentirse vulnerable. Y creo también que en Estados Unidos nunca me he sentido vulnerable por razón de raza o genero o--o, origen. Ahora que estoy diciendo, me estoy acordando de que trabajé siete años en un colegio donde el decano de la facultad rechazó mi candidatura a una tenure track position porque yo no estaba casada con el hombre con quien vivía. Oh yes... Y le dijo a la directora del departamento, cuando ella dijo "queremos a la profesora Cardona Mack para nuestro departamento" y le dijo, "So is she married yet?" Exacto.. Entonces, si... exacta. Entonces ahora que me estoy acordando de esto, tendría que revisar todo lo que he dicho antes. Porque a pesar de que yo no me sentí vulnerable, obviamente lo era. Decir, la--esa organización, esa pequeña universidad me renovó el contrato, pero no me renovó como profesora, lo renovaron como adjunct. Porque estaba esperando que yo me casara. Porque era intolerable, para las personas que--de esa organización, que yo viviera en ese—en pecado, supongo. No sé. Parece algo como el siglo 19. Pero... o peor. Pero en todo caso..
KG: Eso fue en Carolina del Norte?
JM: Sí. En Carolina del Norte. Entonces, no, pero bueno, lo que quiero decir es que no es una cuestión, es discriminación, pero no es discriminación por razón de origen, ni raza. Es una discriminación porque estas personas en particular tenían una idea muy clara de como querían que fuera el profesor de su universidad y yo no--y a pesar de que yo era buena profesora, y que me querían allí para que yo enseñara, no me querían pagar el dinero necesario, no me querían dar el titulo de profesora porque para ellos todavía yo tuviera que hacer lo que ellos quería.
KG: Entonces fue más por el género que por...
JM: No, fue una cuestión, de cuestión... como se llama... let me see...sexual orientation... marital status, that's it, that's it. I knew there was a label for that! There's an app for that!
KG: Y, siente Ud. que--que tiene el apoyo de otros profesores o administradores hispanos? En la universidad hay una comunidad o…?
JM: Si la hay, no la conozco. Si yo sé que hay profesores hispanos y en alguna--algunos semestres me he reunido con algo que llaman Hispanic Caucus. Pero Hispanic Caucus siempre se reúne los jueves, los martes o jueves y yo esos días no puedo venir a la universidad. Entonces cuando han hecho reuniones, me lo decía "Keep me in the loop" así que por eso yo creo que dejaban de invitarme. Porque la verdad no he vuelto de saber de ellos. No siento, no me siento apoyada por ellos y tampoco sé lo que están haciendo, la verdad.
KG: Ok. Y--Última pregunta, tiene Ud. algún otro comentario o observación como, sobre la experiencia de ser hispano y profesora en el campo de educación universitaria en Carolina del Norte?
JM: Sí, tengo un comentario que hasta cierto punto una más que nada una, un ruego, una regalía... Porque es que tengo a dos estudiantes muy prometedoras. Una acaba de empezar su doctorado en Arizona. Y otra está empezando--es un rising senior--el año que viene. Y este verano va a ser en Europe para empezar a desarrollarse como posible candidata a escuela graduada para--con la idea de ser una profesora. Y estas dos mujeres, para mi, representan el futuro. Y ambas han sido estudiantes mías por mucho--en varias clases. Ambas han estado comiendo en mi mesa en mi casa, en mi oficina. Las quiero como si fueran hijas, y las he observado, y las he animado lo más que lo he podido. Lo único que quisiera es que ambas lo lograran ser profesoras para que pudieran inspirar a otras personas a hacerlo también. Es muy difícil para una persona, para un estudiante hispano de primera generación de dedicarse a la academia. Porque es muy difícil explicarle a su familia lo que intenta a hacer. El concepto del profesor universitario es algo que, tan extraño, tan foráneo para un estudiante de primera generación de cualquier etnicidad. Pero para nuestra, nuestro población que ha sufrido tanto, que está tan preocupada por la […] es todavía mas extraño que un hijo que entra a UNC para hacer enfermería, es algo muy concreto, muy especifico. Decir dedicarse a la sociología, o a la historia, o a la filosofía, a la lingüística goodness! For gracious! What ever is that? Así que, te entiendes no? Que las mujeres hagan lo que están haciendo, han tenido de meter una gran cantidad de curiosidad intelectual y de valor, y de valor. Y eran de familias muy tolerantes, y muy amorosa. Entonces, lo que quiero más que nada es que lo logren, no? Y que haya mas, más más más más!
KG: Si, claro. Y piensa formar parte, o tener un rol en su vida después de la facultad? Como después de graduarse, aunque una ya está en Arizona... O no, piensa que es mejor desarrollar los estudiantes acá, o como?
JM: No sé. Tú quieres decir que para mí? Bueno, para mí me preocupo mucho los estudiantes que llegan aquí el primer año. Que llegan aquí los hispanos, que vienen aquí de pequeños lugares en North Carolina donde la hispanidad ha sido algo que se tiene que esconder. Que no es algo que pueden compartir, ni que pueden, ni que pueden expresar con mucha alegría. Y cuando llegan aquí se encuentran en mi clase de conversación, o ahora en la primavera en la clase de composición, se encuentran con una comunidad, con una colectividad que los apoya, que los quiere, que los celebra. Y que, y encuentran con un grupo de estudiantes que en este departamento que envidian lo que ellos tienen y entonces para--es un gran descubrimiento para ellos. Y les ayuda mucho, yo creo, a florecer y a tolerar lo que tienen que tolerar y mantenerse firme y fuerte en el primer año que es tan duro. Y sobre todo para ellos es muy duro. Y eso pues, no sé si te contesté la pregunta, pero--pero esa, para estas chicas que--que hispanas estar en la escuela graduada me--me mantengo contacto con ellas pero realmente mi enfoque es en los pregraduados en los chicos que llegan recién, recién a la universidad. Me estoy quedando sin voz, Katie, y vas a tener que preguntar pronto.
KG: Está bien. Esto fue mi última pregunta. Sí, no tiene algo más para compartir, algo que incluir en su entrevista?
JM: Pues, nada más que me gustaría cuando tuvieras todas estas entrevistas me dejaras ver lo que hay. Porque tengo gran curiosidad por saber lo que vas a encontrar.
KG: Ok. Puedo hacer esto. Muchas gracias.
JM: De nada
KG: Yo soy Katie Gutt y estoy acá con la Profesora Julia Cardona Mack para la parte dos de su entrevista. Hoy es el 30 de marzo. Estamos en la oficina de la Prof. Mack. Y vamos a continuar hablando hoy de su experiencia como profesora universitaria. Y primera pregunta es, ¿Si podría contarme de su primer mes en EE.UU como estudiante?
JM: Pues, mi primer mes en EE.UU, hace mucho tiempo eso. Fue para escuela graduado en la Universidad de California al Sur. Southern California en Los Ángeles. Y mi padre me llevó para que--para, hasta allá. Así que la primera semana él estuvo allá, quedándose en un hotel. Yo, haciendo mis matriculas y demás. Y me sentí muy, pues, muy cómoda, muy tranquila. Cuando él se fue, me empezaron las clase, yo tenía...Acabo de cumplir 18 años. Y estaba haciendo mi año de PhD, así que no tenía mucho tiempo para pensarlo mucho (se ríe). Para pensar en que iba, en los que estaba haciendo, ¿no? Y tenía clases, tenía--no tenía más que trabajar, yo tenía un scholarship, un Oakley Fellowship, de hecho. Entonces, como con el Oakley no tenía que trabajar podía, como, concentrarme completamente en mis estudios. El Oakley me pagaba la matricula, los libros, me pagaban, me daban 200 dólares al mes para lo que yo quisiera. Me pagaba los viajes a Puerto Rico. Pues, era un fellowship muy, muy generoso. Y por lo tanto no tenía ningún problema económico. Estaba quedándome en los dormitorios. Era una vida de lujo en realidad. Inmigrante de lujo. Y por lo tanto, pues, no recuerdo grandes complicaciones a parte de las clases, que era--ser estudiantes graduada a esa edad es una locura. Sí, era una locura. Y aparte de que mis compañeros me llamaban "the kid", aparte de ser "the kid", pues, no tenía ningún problema. Y, al contrario, pasé los dos años que estuve en UNC--en USC--muy bien, muy feliz, y muy conectada con mis colegas y mis trabajos y yendo a casa muy a menudo. Mi primer año en--la segunda vez que regresé a EE.UU fue muchos años después. Ya tenía un PhD, ya era mujer casada. Tenía tres hijos. Era una experiencia completamente diferente. Pero también en este caso, pues, venía con mi esposo que venía a un trabajo muy bien pagado. Una área urbana que es Raleigh, North Carolina. Compramos una casa, me puse los hijos en la escuela. Mi primer mes fue un torbellino de actividad. Buscando donde poder poner los niños, llevarlos a la escuela. Establecer la casa. Comprar muebles, hacer las cosas que hace la gente cuando esté empezando a mudarse a un lugar. Así que, fue duro, fue complicado, fue muy divertido. Hice muchas amistades, más o menos lo mismo que la vez anterior, pero también es mi inmigración de lujo. Porque no pasé unas dificultades que pasan otras personas que vienen sin trabajo, que vienen a un futuro incierto.
KG: ¿Y ya había obtenido un trabajo Ud.?
JM: Yo había trabajado en la Universidad de Puerto Rico, sí, y en la Universidad de las Islas Vírgenes, que mencioné arriba. Y aquí, no, aquí no tenía trabajo yo. Pero, como mi esposo tenía un trabajo muy bien pagado, pues no había ninguna necesidad. Sí, llevé mi curriculum vitae a la Universidad de State, en Raleigh. Por aquello que me hubiera gustado trabajara. Inmediatamente me contrataron. Y llegué en junio y en agosto ya estaba trabajando. Sí fue bastante sorprendente. Y también con colegas muy divertidos, muy simpáticos que, algunos de los cuales todavía son amigos míos. Así que, que, no he tenido grandes complicaciones.
KG: Bueno.
JM: Aparte de las complicaciones normales de estar lejos de tu familia. Y sintiendo un poco fuera del sitio.
KG: Y, bueno, ¿Hubo algo que no esperaba? ¿Algo la segunda vez?
JM: Pues, California y North Carolina son estados muy diferentes. No esperaba que hubiera tantas diferencias entre ellos. Así, cuando estuve en California yo sabía que el sur de EE.UU es muy distinto porque mis compañeros de clase a veces hablaban de los sureños. Bueno, tú te imaginas. Entonces, claro yo sabía que estaba diferente. Además de cuando dije a mi madre que venía para acá se puso furiosa conmigo. Dijo "¿Cómo que te vas para el sur de EE.UU? Con la historia que tiene esta gente, tú no sabes que hace poco había letreros que decían 'no dogs and Puerto Ricans allowed'. ¿Cómo te vas a un lugar así?" Así venía pensando que ésta va a ser duro y difícil. Y cuando vine en los 80, aquí la población era muy homogénea. Decir, no había tanta variedad como ahora, no había tanta diversidad. Y, pero yo estaba tan ocupada con mis hijos y mi trabajo y mi marido que no había tiempo para ponerse a pensar si la gente me aceptaba o no me aceptaba. A mi la verdad es que no me importaba, a fin de cuentas.
KG: Bueno.
JM: ¿Verdad?
KG: Es mejor. Ud. enseñó en la Universidad de Puerto Rico y la Universidad de las Islas Vírgenes, pero ¿Puede contarme de su primer día como profesora en la Universidad de Puerto Rico?
JM: (Se ríe) Lo recuerdo muy bien. Porque había acabado de terminar, bueno, había justo—me terminé la maestría en USC. Y estaba empezando el doctorado. Y mi padre me dijo, él era rector del departamento de lenguas, me dijo "Mira, aquí se acaba de abrir una plaza, un trabajo, para una persona y va ser muy difícil de llenar esta plaza porque necesitamos a alguien que puede enseñar francés, alemán y latín. Así que va a ser muy difícil encontrar a alguien así. Pero yo sé que tú lo puedes hacer. Y tu madre me está volviendo loco porque no quiere que te quedes en California. Que dos años ya basta y que deberías de venir. Que tú eres muy joven, que tú eres..." Que era una joven, que blah blah blah. Entonces, tanta fue la presión de papá y mamá, sobre todo de mamá, que tomé mis exámenes de maestría y me vine. Me vine con la maestría y dejé el doctorado a la mitad. Cuando llegué, el decano de la facultad me mandó a llamar. Y me dijo, "Te damos este trabajo a pesar de que eres muy joven y que no [...] esta experiencia porque tu padre es un profesor distinguido. Y asumimos que va a ser tu mentor. Y que tú vas a responderle a él por los trabajos que hagas y que vas a trabajar como el ha trabajado. Oh, no pressure! Entonces le dije, bueno. Y me dieron dos clases de francés principiantes el primer año, dos clases de alemán--oh no, it's not over yet--dos clases de alemán como principiante, y una clase de latín de principiante. Todas cinco clases en el semestre. Esto no es por un año esto es todas las clases, todos los días. Y eran cuarenta estudiantes en cada clase. Oh no, no, en latín no había cuarenta, pero en francés y alemán, sí. Había solamente 20 o algo así. Y los de latín eran estudiantes graduados que tenían latín como requisito. Y los de francés y alemán eran estudiantes de primer año. La mayoría de los de francés eran de historia, de pedagogía. Y los de alemán casi todos eran de ciencias. Curioso, ¿no? Pues yo recuerdo el primer día que fui a clase. Porque eran los años en que las mujeres se pusieron minifaldas. Y yo tenía una minifalda color azul celeste, algo así como Carolina blue. Entonces era como un baby doll. O estilo de baby doll, era, así con puntillitas, así muy chiquito, muy inocente. No? Y era un salón muy grande, muy grande con pisos de madera, con grandes ventanas. Y había cuarenta y tantos estudiantes en el salón. Estaba lleno. Y en el catalogo había aparecido el nombre de mi padre, que es el mismo que el mío en aquella época. Entonces los estudiantes lo estaban esperando a él. Porque el enseñaba el mismo tipo de curso. Entonces cuando llego yo, entro por la puerta--estaban todos los estudiantes sentados--entro por la puerta, y vi a todas aquellas caras y se van quedando todos en silencio. Yo oigo una voz en la ultima voz en la ultima fila, "Ay, pero sí es una nena!" (Se ríe). No sé. Yo vine y hubiera salido corriendo, pero no me quedé y di mi clase. Y salí bien, no? Pero la verdad es que era mucho trabajo. Yo, los primeros cuatro o cinco años que enseñé en la Universidad de Puerto Rico terminaba el semestre cada año, cada semestre enferma. Me dio por la nucleosis. Me dio pulmonía. Me dio, que sé yo, me dio measles, me dio varicela. Es decir, quedaba tan exhausta al fin del semestre porque eran muchas clases, muchos estudiantes, mucho trabajo. Solamente una persona joven puede hacer un trabajo así. Es imposible. Los fines de semana, me iba con mis amigos, me desaparecía. Porque también es una sociedad pequeña, los profesores tenemos un aspecto social muy fuerte. No? Es profesor es una persona respetable. Aunque tengo 20 año, dice una niña, una nena. Es una persona respetable, es una persona que se supone que seba mucho, no? Entonces la presión, además de ser de una familia conocida, llegaba el fin de semana y quería salir y irme de la ciudad, no? Me iba con mis amigas al sur de la isla. mis amigas tenían un barco de vela. Y nos íbamos a pasar, a navegar el fin de semana. Sin zapatos, sin bañarme, sin peinarme, sin cepillarme los dientes. Con una camiseta de USC y los pantalones--feliz! Completamente feliz. Para volver el lunes a clase otra vez la profesora, tú sabes. Así que este fue mi primera experiencia como profesora. Un poco extraña, pero sí.
KG: Bueno, no puedo imaginar enseñar una clase de 40 personas al tener 20 años.
JM: Te imaginas eso, ¿no? Yo tampoco creo que podrías. No volvería a ser.
KG: Y, mi próxima pregunta es ¿cómo eran diferentes las universidades en comparación con la UNC, desde de la perspectiva de una profesora?
JM: Bueno, yo creo que primero que nada hay que ver que estas universidades están en lugares donde--éste es el tercer mundo. Es un mundo dónde los recursos son diferentes. Donde las necesidades son distintas. donde la gente tiene otras expectativas de lo que el país debe ser. Y de lo que las instituciones tienen que contribuir. Y por lo tanto en UNC yo espero más de mis estudiantes porque asumo que mi trabajo aquí es servir de facilitador. De ayudar a mis estudiantes a crecer como individuos, como intelectuales. Y a mejorar su conocimientos de mundo si en posible. Pero la responsabilidad está en ti, Katie, en el otro de mis estudiantes. En los países en que yo he enseñado, en Puerto Rico y en las Islas Vírgenes, el estudiante no viene al salón de clases con los recursos, ni intelectuales, ni sociales y económicos, que trae al salón de clases de UNC. Entonces estos estudiantes requieren una relación diferente con el profesor. Requieren un tipo de acercamiento muy distinto. Hay que, hay que apoyar no solamente el desarrollo intelectual, sino el desarrollo humano, y social y económico del estudiante. Yo por alguna razón yo llegaba al fin de semana tan exhausta y era porque estaba manejando una serie de situaciones mucho más complicadas que mi vida propia. Que eran mucho más, que tenían retos mucho mayores de lo que yo había enfrentado jamás. Y también, una justificación mucho más inmediata. Así, yo puedo en UNC, yo te puedo decir "Ah bueno, Katie, tú necesitas esto. Vamos a, te contesto mañana. O te contesto pasado mañana. O vamos a ver como podemos hacer esto." En un país donde los recursos son limitados, la respuesta tiene que llegar en el momento. Y tiene que ser una respuesta eficiente, eficaz, completa. Es un trabajo diferente. No solamente por el tipo de estudiante y por el tipo de institución en el cual el profesor trabaja, sino porque su--lo que viene llamado a hacer, su misión--es diferente.
KG: Me imagino. Y, ahora ¿podría contarme como su primer día como profesora en UNC?
JM: En UNC. Ay, si me acordaré. Pues, tenía una oficina en el segundo piso de Dey hall (se ríe). Y era como Grand Central porque--a mi me gusta tener la puerta de la oficina abierta para que mis estudiantes se sientan que pudieran entrar, que son parte de mi momento de mi trabajo--pero, era tanta la gente que pasaba por allí que era muy simpático, no? Porque el ruido era constante. Pero pasaron dos cosas simpáticas que creo que sean más interesantes que lo normal. Que llevan un poquito más para allá. Uno fue que era muy temprano en la mañana y yo estaba sentada en mi escritorio con mi espalda asi a la puerta. Y oigo una voz de mujer que dice "I've got to see who this Julia Mack is." Y me doy media vuelta y miro y encuentro en la puerta una señora rubia, de pelo riso, típicamente gringa que me dice, "Hola, yo me llamo Julia Mack." Y yo le digo, "Pues, yo también." Y me dice "Yo soy estudiante graduada de inglés y tengo mi oficina dos pisos más arriba." Con el tiempo a llegué a conocerla. Y es una suerte que su política y la mía son muy parecidas porque durante el tiempo que ella estuve en UNC nos confundían, la una con la otra, todo el tiempo. Julia Mack aparecía en los periódicos en Chapel Hill, en las marchas a favor de las mujeres, y en favor de los inmigrante y este otro. "¿Fuiste tú?" Y me decían, "Bravo, bravo," y no, no, no ésta es la otra! Mi doppleganger, esta otra Julia. Pero bueno, yo la mando a hacer estas cosas! Sí, pasó esto. Y pasó también que mi esposo, le había dado su abuela unas alfombras pequeñas. Unas alfombras persa, libanesa no sé. Del norte de África, quizás. No sé. Muy bonitas, de colores muy brillantes. Y como la oficina era tan drab. Pues, yo me traje tres o cuatros de estas alfombritas y las puse en diferentes partes de mi oficina. Y un día, como a las dos o tres semanas de haber llegado aquí, estoy así sentada en mi escritorio otra vez, y oigo una persona en la puerta que me dice, "Hola, mi nombre es Sara Ahmed". Y era una profesora egipcia, que en aquella época enseñaba francés con nosotros, que ahora creo que está en el Departamento de Estudios Islámicos, no sé donde estará, pero creo que todavía está en UNC. Ella venía a ver las alfombritas porque resulta que eran prayer rugs y no lo sabía. Ella no me dijo nada, pero después me quede pensando, "Dios mío a lo mejor estoy haciendo algo terrible, un falto de respeto de ponerlas ahí. La gente se para encima!" Pero ella se paró, sí las miró, no sé si fue con admiración o horror, no sé. Algo extraño, ¿no? Pero no me dijo nada. Se presentó y me presenté, nos saludamos. Nos caímos bien, yo creo. Pero aparte de esto, pues nada. Esto fue otro "uh-oh", one of those uh-oh moments! Sí, exacto. Los estudiantes, no lo recuerdo muy bien porque en realidad eran tantos y tantos. Y a la misma vez recuerdo pequeños eventos, por ejemplo un estudiante que aquí en North Carolina--hay una historia con este pajarito, pero no viene al caso--pues, resulta que me habló de que bailaba shag, creo, o algo así. Y me dice, era una clase pequeña, de 15--18 estudiantes, dijo "Esto es lo que bailamos cuando vamos a la playa en el verano." Y yo dije, sí estoy tratando de aprender todo lo que tiene que ver con lo que era, porque sé muy poco. Y me dice, "Ah, pero yo le enseño!" Allí mismo, alguien sacó un disco y me quisieron enseñar a bailar shag los estudiantes de la clase. Bueno, me enseñaron más o menos, pero fue comiquísimo porque ellos se sintieron tan felices de poder ensenarme a mi. No? Y sobre todo ensenarme algo que obviamente yo jamás en mi vida había visto. Pero fue muy divertido. Fue muy agradable y muy alegre.
KG: Ah bueno. Y, otra pregunta sobre ser profesora en la UNC. Quería saber ¿cómo ha cambiado la profesión de ser profesora en Carolina del Norte sobre su carrera?
JM: En mi carrera, cómo ha cambiado. Para mi, sí ha cambiado porque para mi lo más importante es que ahora tenemos cursos para estudiantes hispanohablantes de herencia. Que antes no teníamos. Cuando yo llegué inmediatamente me di cuenta que hacia falta. Que language maintenance era algo importante para mi, para los estudiantes y para la universidad. Pero, que no podía convencer a mis colegas de que instituyéramos estos cursos. Me decían que no había suficientes estudiantes para ponerlos en el programa. Y yo juraba que si, decía "sí, están! Lo que pasa es que ustedes no preguntan. Ellos no dicen que son hispanos porque Uds. no les preguntan si los son. Entonces no se dan cuenta." Entonces un semestre le pregunté, mandé un email a todos mis colegas y dije "Busquen en sus clases". Y cuando encontré los números se dieron cuenta de que sí yo tenía razón. Fui al director del departamento y en este momento estuvimos en un cambio de directores. Y llegó una persona al departamento que era lingüista y logré convencerlo que me dejara para dar estos cursos. Y para mi esto es el cambio más importante. Que, sobre todo, como es más visible la población hispanohablante en North Carolina y en la universidad, estos cursos han tenido--todos los semestres empecé con dificultad. No aparecen estudiantes, los cursos parecen que los van a quitar, tienen dos estudiantes, después tres, después cuatro, y después seis, ocho, diez y al final termino con el curso lleno con 20 o más estudiantes. Este semestre les he dicho que no quiero más estudiantes que los 20 que tenía, he tenido que sacar gente del curso. Así que efectivamente los cursos se pueden dar. Hay gente aquí que quiere continuar con el español que ha aprendido en casa. Para mi, eso es un cambio significativo, importante, visible.
KG: Y ¿Cuáles son los desafíos para Ud. como profesora en UNC y cómo los ha superado?
JM: Los desafíos siempre tienen que ver con los estudiantes. Y cómo hacer la mejor clase posible y el mejor, la mejor experiencia educativa. Y esto no es solamente por decir, en realidad, yo invierto la mayor parte de mi tiempo cuando--yo estoy en esta oficina trabajando en los cursos y preparándome, leyendo, organizando, haciendo todo lo posible para que la clase que voy a dar sea lo más, lo mas interactiva posible, y sobre todo, en no decirle a mis estudiantes todo lo que sé. Porque lo que me interesa a mi es que ellos busquen en si mismos todo lo que ellos saben. Entonces es muy fácil para un profesor pararse en frente de una clase y dar como una conferencia, a lecture. Es fácil. Cualquier tema, por 40 minutos--Wind me up and set me up! Y yo empiezo a hablar. Pero lo interesante para mi es lograr que los estudiantes piensen, que se queden con algo, aunque sea una cosa pequeña y se lo lleven consigo y se queden pensando, que le siga molestando hasta el día siguiente. Y esto requiere mucha planificación por mi parte y es definitivamente el reto mayo para mi de ser profesora. Cuando tenia niños en casa el reto más grande era sacar tiempo para hacer eso y darle tiempo a mis hijos, y darle tiempo a mi casa, a mis cosas. Cuando estuve un tiempo escribiendo cuentos de detectives, escribí unos cuentos detectives. Cuando estaba haciendo esto, pues, el reto era sacar tiempo para mis cosas, para mis novelas. Cuando hacia también los cursos, mis clases y mis cosas. Así que siempre es una cuestión--yo creo que el factor tiempo siempre ha sido el reto más grande.
KG: Y mi ultima pregunta es si ¿Ud. tiene algunos consejos para futuros profesores de la UNC o profesores en el sistema educativo de Carolina del Norte en general?
JM: Si, si tengo. Y no es duda--no es solamente mía la sugerencia--todo los que estamos aquí, que nos estamos dando cuenta de que los tiempos van cambiando. Que la universidad se hace cada vez más un negocio, que se convierte cada vez más en producto, una marca, un brand que se le vende al estudiante. Y no quiero ser romántica, pero pienso que el desarrollo del individuo, sobre todo el las humanidades, el desarrollo del individuo como persona, como un ser humano, el desarrollo del concepto del tramada moral del individuo, de su capacidad para escoger una vida fructífera y positiva y pacifica y justa, eso necesita un espacio donde se le permita al estudiante cometer errores, tomar una clase que no le sirva para nada, supuestamente. Tomar un cuso simplemente por curiosidad. Meterse en cosas que no son libros, pero que tienen algo también de enseñar. Todo esa experiencia de desarrollo humano se pierde si lo que queremos es un proceso por el cual, entres por un lado y salgas por el otro, como salchichas. Es decir, que salgas formado con dos lasitas, una a cada lado. Y tienes un titulo de UNC. Si es el camino por el cual vamos, es la meta que [...] en el siglo 21, mi recomendación a mis colegas es que resistan. De que resistan, de que se nieguen. A mis estudiantes, que piensen, que escriban poesía, que se metan en cursos por curiosidad, que inventen cosas, que se meten en los líos, que salgan de estas paredes, que pregunten, que argumenten, que peleen. Y esto cuesta tiempo y esto no es el business plan.
KG: Estoy de acuerdo con esto. Y esto fue mi ultima pregunta, así que gracias por hacer esta entrevista.
JM: De nada.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Profesores
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Español
Es: Resumen
Julia Mack es profesora de español en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill. Mack nació en Puerto Rico y se mudó a los Estados Unidos para estudiar su maestría. Ella ha enseñado en tres universidades de Carolina del Norte, incluyendo UNC donde ha enseñado por los últimos veinte años. Mack habla de su decisión de ser profesora y como su padre modelo la profesión. Ella dice que se identifica como hispana, pero que se siente una minoría en su profesión más por ser mujer y madre que por su etnicidad. Como profesora, cree que sus roles más importantes son mostrar a sus estudiantes hispanos que una carrera en academia es posible, además de servir como recurso a sus colegas en el Departamento de Estudios Romances. Mack cierra la primera entrevista compartiendo algunos ejemplos de cómo ha fomentado relaciones con estudiantes hispanos mostrándoles que su herencia hispana es algo por lo cual estar orgullosos. En la segunda entrevista, Mack describe ser una “inmigrante de lujo.” Ella habla sobre estudiar para su maestría en California y luego volver a enseñar al nivel universitario. Ella dice que su reto más grande ha sido crear clases interactivas y que su más grande éxito fue empezar un programa de clases para estudiantes hablantes nativos de español en UNC. Ella cierra la segunda entrevista aconsejando a futuros profesores a fomentar la curiosidad de sus estudiantes y a resistir que la universidad se convierta en un negocio.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Julia Mack por Katie Gutt, 25 Febrero 2015, R-0812, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Racismo y discriminación; Educación superior; Género; Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill
Es: Transcripción
Katie Gutt: Yo soy Katie Gutt y estoy acá con la Profesora Julia Mack. Hoy es el 25 de febrero del 2015. Estamos en la oficina de la Profesora Mack. Vamos a hablar hoy de su experiencia como profesora hispana en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Julia Mack: Hola, Katie.
KG: Y Profesora Mack, donde nació Ud.?
JM: Yo nací en Puerto Rico.
KG: Bueno. Y vivía en otra parte de Estados Unidos. antes de venir a Carolina del Norte?
JM: Bueno, para mis estudios graduados estuve dos años en California.
KG: Y que estudió?
JM: Estudié lingüística.
KG: Y porque vino Ud. a Carolina del Norte?
JM: Bueno, cuando vine estaba casada con un señor que -- que era ingeniero y trabajaba para ITT y la compañía lo trajo aquí y vine con él con mis niños.
KG: Bueno, y ahora vamos a hablar de su experiencia en la educación. Y quería saber ¿cómo se involucró en el sistema educativo?
JM: Bueno, yo siempre he trabajado al nivel universitario con excepción de un año que traté de ser profesora de high school. Y fallé miserablemente, no sirvo para eso. Y me involucré en este campo porqué prácticamente nací en el. Mi padre fue profesor universitario por mucho tiempo. Y cuando yo nací profesor universitario. Cuando yo estudié en la--mis estudios pregraduados él me--me indicó que era un buen--una buena profesión. Y fue un buen modelo, que profesor fue muy querido, fue muy respetado. Y para mi fue una, así como, pues, natural?
KG: Y, Ud. se identifica como hispana?
JM: Sí. Sí.
KG: Y qué significa eso para Ud.?
JM: Bueno, más que nada significa que hablo español. Y que formo una parte de una comunidad de hispanohablantes de diferentes tipos, de diferentes orígenes, pero que por alguna razón compartimos este idioma. Y por lo tanto tenemos cierta historia y vivencias comunes que nos hacen hermanos de una forma.
KG: Y, como Ud. es profesor--profesora hispana, se considera una minoría en su profesión?
JM: Oh, sí, absolutamente.
KG: Y acá en la facultad?
JM: Bueno, en esta facultad, fíjate no tanto. Porque en este departamento precisamente, eh, la mayoría de la gente es minoría de alguna forma. Somos expertos en varias--que nadie más habla, o lo que hablan no lo enseñan, y por lo tanto nos han escogido, para ser parte de esta facultad precisamente porque somos parte de esa minoría. Así que aquí no.
KG: Y, en la profesión, se considera una minoría en la profesión de ser educador?
JM: Bueno, fíjate, en mi--yo me siento que soy una minoría en la profesión de académicos universitarios en Norteamérica. Pero no necesariamente porque enseño español, sino es porque, ni incluso porque enseño lingüística, sino quizás porque soy una mujer, una madre, y mayor de edad. Que la mayoría de los profesores tienden a ser hombres, que también las mujeres que enseñan en este ambiente suelen ser mujeres sin niños porque no les da el tiempo para tener todo (se ríe). Y yo no quise negarme a mi misma nada. Y, y quizás también después de cierto tiempo se cansan y se van. Y yo me he quedado porque me gusta. Entonces, por estas razones siento más minoría que por ser hispana.
KG: Y, puede Ud. describir su trabajo con la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill?
JM: Y cuál aspecto de esto? Porque mira que es amplio. Y son veinte años!
KG: Como profesora primero? Y después los otros roles que tene--que tiene en la facultad.
JM: Bueno, mi rol primario es como profesora. Y sobre todo, me parece que, como en el aspecto que tengo mayor impacto, quizás si tengo alguno, es en presentar para mis estudiantes la hispanidad. Lo que puede ser una persona hispana que tiene, que llega a tener estos niveles de--de desarrollo intelectual. Me parece que para mis estudiantes hispanohablantes, represento una posibilidad que quizás no se han considerado. Y eso para mi es muy importante. Es de dejar la puerta de mi oficina abierta todo el tiempo para que vengan. Los que pasan por ahí entran para saludar y se quedan hablando, eso es muy importante para mi también. Contestar los correos que recibo, sean los que sean entre más triviales. Igual, no me importa tampoco contestarlos con anima a mis estudiantes dejándoles saber que estoy muy orgullosa de ellos y que los estoy esperando que sean personas de valor. Todo eso para mi es lo más importante.
KG: Um, y, tiene Ud. otros roles en la universidad, como ser líder o consejera de algunos clubes o organizaciones?
JM: Sí, hay varios. Pero sin embargo, también aquí en lo que más en--lo que más rápidamente me viene a la mente no es ser faculty advisor para Mezcla o para un grupo. Ultimate frisbee team, I'm their faculty advisor. Sino, lo que me viene a la mente más que nada es mi relación con mis colegas. Y la--mi capacidad por mi experiencia y mis conocimientos de servirles de recurso. Yo tengo amigos que vienen aquí con preguntas esotéricas de gramática (se ríe). "Julia contéstame esto que tú siempre me contestas bien!" Y cuando no tengo una buena contestación le digo mañana te la digo. Y busco entre mis libros de gramática y demás para ayudarlos hacer su trabajo. Y eso para mi es muy valioso, esa colegialidad que se establece cuando una ha estado cierto tiempo aquí. Y cuando los demás se dan cuenta que tú no estás compitiendo con ellos, que realmente estas aquí para ayudarlos. Y que, te place servirles de recurso.
KG: Y, la próxima pregunta tiene más que ver con la experiencia de ser profesora hispana, que sea la identidad más importante o no, Ud. que piensa, o ¿piensa que cómo es diferente la experiencia en comparación con la experiencia de sus colegas que no son hispanos?
JM: Pues, la verdad no sabría. Que yo no sé como es la experiencia de los otros, no. Así que será más difícil al contrastar, como será la experiencia de los compañeros que se sienten, que vienen a, por ejemplo enseñar español desde la perspectiva de que se considera la segunda lengua, una lengua aprendida más bien que con la que nacieron o que aprendieron en casa. Así que, no sé, no sé como, como contrastarlo. Pero si, te puedo decir que hoy por ejemplo como hubo una reunión frente a Wilson Library de todos los adjuncts, todos los profesores que están aquí. Y yo soy uno de ellos. No soy tenure track. Así para mi esa, a pesar de que a mi nunca me he sentido, nunca me he sentido frágil, o vulnerable. Siempre me he sentido segura en mi trabajo, porque sé que trabajo bien. Y siempre que he tenido la posibilidad de renovar el contrato. Lo--las organizaciones, la universidad donde han estado lo han hecho rápidamente, lo han hecho por mucho tiempo y me han tratado bien. Pero, sé que al no ser profesora--que la jerarquía pesa. Que la jerarquía en un--en este trabajo, como en muchos otros trabajos, la jerarquía se hará resentirse, se hace, se hace presente. Y que, cuando tu estas en la parte más baja de la escalera, pues, um, puede sentirte en peligro, menos por la--me compara las posibilidades. Yo nunca me he sentido así, pero siempre he apoyado a esas colegas que se sientan de esa manera. Estaba allí hoy en la Wilson Library porque pensé que era importante que viera--que viera gente ahí, que respondiéramos a eso.
KG: Y es algo que entiende por su experiencia o por su tiempo acá, por sus años acá?
JM: No, eso entiendo, el que--tu quieres decir el querer ser, querer apoyar a una causa, o no entiendo la pregunta muy bien.
KG: Bueno...
JM: Es decir que sí... Que lo que creo...
KG: Es sentir como vulnerable es algo que no se siente por los años acá, por su tiempo acá?
JM: No, yo creo que el no sentirme vulnerable tiene que ver con el sentirme muy segura en mi propio conocimiento. Es saber que lo que yo sé, lo--me ha tomado tiempo de adquirirlo, y lo he hecho con mucho trabajo y que es solido y bueno. Y por lo tanto, que no tengo que temer el que me acuse o que se me critique porque no hay razón. Es decir, yo creo que es una cuestión muy personal. El sentirse o no sentirse vulnerable. Y creo también que en Estados Unidos nunca me he sentido vulnerable por razón de raza o genero o--o, origen. Ahora que estoy diciendo, me estoy acordando de que trabajé siete años en un colegio donde el decano de la facultad rechazó mi candidatura a una tenure track position porque yo no estaba casada con el hombre con quien vivía. Oh yes... Y le dijo a la directora del departamento, cuando ella dijo "queremos a la profesora Cardona Mack para nuestro departamento" y le dijo, "So is she married yet?" Exacto.. Entonces, si... exacta. Entonces ahora que me estoy acordando de esto, tendría que revisar todo lo que he dicho antes. Porque a pesar de que yo no me sentí vulnerable, obviamente lo era. Decir, la--esa organización, esa pequeña universidad me renovó el contrato, pero no me renovó como profesora, lo renovaron como adjunct. Porque estaba esperando que yo me casara. Porque era intolerable, para las personas que--de esa organización, que yo viviera en ese—en pecado, supongo. No sé. Parece algo como el siglo 19. Pero... o peor. Pero en todo caso..
KG: Eso fue en Carolina del Norte?
JM: Sí. En Carolina del Norte. Entonces, no, pero bueno, lo que quiero decir es que no es una cuestión, es discriminación, pero no es discriminación por razón de origen, ni raza. Es una discriminación porque estas personas en particular tenían una idea muy clara de como querían que fuera el profesor de su universidad y yo no--y a pesar de que yo era buena profesora, y que me querían allí para que yo enseñara, no me querían pagar el dinero necesario, no me querían dar el titulo de profesora porque para ellos todavía yo tuviera que hacer lo que ellos quería.
KG: Entonces fue más por el género que por...
JM: No, fue una cuestión, de cuestión... como se llama... let me see...sexual orientation... marital status, that's it, that's it. I knew there was a label for that! There's an app for that!
KG: Y, siente Ud. que--que tiene el apoyo de otros profesores o administradores hispanos? En la universidad hay una comunidad o…?
JM: Si la hay, no la conozco. Si yo sé que hay profesores hispanos y en alguna--algunos semestres me he reunido con algo que llaman Hispanic Caucus. Pero Hispanic Caucus siempre se reúne los jueves, los martes o jueves y yo esos días no puedo venir a la universidad. Entonces cuando han hecho reuniones, me lo decía "Keep me in the loop" así que por eso yo creo que dejaban de invitarme. Porque la verdad no he vuelto de saber de ellos. No siento, no me siento apoyada por ellos y tampoco sé lo que están haciendo, la verdad.
KG: Ok. Y--Última pregunta, tiene Ud. algún otro comentario o observación como, sobre la experiencia de ser hispano y profesora en el campo de educación universitaria en Carolina del Norte?
JM: Sí, tengo un comentario que hasta cierto punto una más que nada una, un ruego, una regalía... Porque es que tengo a dos estudiantes muy prometedoras. Una acaba de empezar su doctorado en Arizona. Y otra está empezando--es un rising senior--el año que viene. Y este verano va a ser en Europe para empezar a desarrollarse como posible candidata a escuela graduada para--con la idea de ser una profesora. Y estas dos mujeres, para mi, representan el futuro. Y ambas han sido estudiantes mías por mucho--en varias clases. Ambas han estado comiendo en mi mesa en mi casa, en mi oficina. Las quiero como si fueran hijas, y las he observado, y las he animado lo más que lo he podido. Lo único que quisiera es que ambas lo lograran ser profesoras para que pudieran inspirar a otras personas a hacerlo también. Es muy difícil para una persona, para un estudiante hispano de primera generación de dedicarse a la academia. Porque es muy difícil explicarle a su familia lo que intenta a hacer. El concepto del profesor universitario es algo que, tan extraño, tan foráneo para un estudiante de primera generación de cualquier etnicidad. Pero para nuestra, nuestro población que ha sufrido tanto, que está tan preocupada por la […] es todavía mas extraño que un hijo que entra a UNC para hacer enfermería, es algo muy concreto, muy especifico. Decir dedicarse a la sociología, o a la historia, o a la filosofía, a la lingüística goodness! For gracious! What ever is that? Así que, te entiendes no? Que las mujeres hagan lo que están haciendo, han tenido de meter una gran cantidad de curiosidad intelectual y de valor, y de valor. Y eran de familias muy tolerantes, y muy amorosa. Entonces, lo que quiero más que nada es que lo logren, no? Y que haya mas, más más más más!
KG: Si, claro. Y piensa formar parte, o tener un rol en su vida después de la facultad? Como después de graduarse, aunque una ya está en Arizona... O no, piensa que es mejor desarrollar los estudiantes acá, o como?
JM: No sé. Tú quieres decir que para mí? Bueno, para mí me preocupo mucho los estudiantes que llegan aquí el primer año. Que llegan aquí los hispanos, que vienen aquí de pequeños lugares en North Carolina donde la hispanidad ha sido algo que se tiene que esconder. Que no es algo que pueden compartir, ni que pueden, ni que pueden expresar con mucha alegría. Y cuando llegan aquí se encuentran en mi clase de conversación, o ahora en la primavera en la clase de composición, se encuentran con una comunidad, con una colectividad que los apoya, que los quiere, que los celebra. Y que, y encuentran con un grupo de estudiantes que en este departamento que envidian lo que ellos tienen y entonces para--es un gran descubrimiento para ellos. Y les ayuda mucho, yo creo, a florecer y a tolerar lo que tienen que tolerar y mantenerse firme y fuerte en el primer año que es tan duro. Y sobre todo para ellos es muy duro. Y eso pues, no sé si te contesté la pregunta, pero--pero esa, para estas chicas que--que hispanas estar en la escuela graduada me--me mantengo contacto con ellas pero realmente mi enfoque es en los pregraduados en los chicos que llegan recién, recién a la universidad. Me estoy quedando sin voz, Katie, y vas a tener que preguntar pronto.
KG: Está bien. Esto fue mi última pregunta. Sí, no tiene algo más para compartir, algo que incluir en su entrevista?
JM: Pues, nada más que me gustaría cuando tuvieras todas estas entrevistas me dejaras ver lo que hay. Porque tengo gran curiosidad por saber lo que vas a encontrar.
KG: Ok. Puedo hacer esto. Muchas gracias.
JM: De nada
KG: Yo soy Katie Gutt y estoy acá con la Profesora Julia Cardona Mack para la parte dos de su entrevista. Hoy es el 30 de marzo. Estamos en la oficina de la Prof. Mack. Y vamos a continuar hablando hoy de su experiencia como profesora universitaria. Y primera pregunta es, ¿Si podría contarme de su primer mes en EE.UU como estudiante?
JM: Pues, mi primer mes en EE.UU, hace mucho tiempo eso. Fue para escuela graduado en la Universidad de California al Sur. Southern California en Los Ángeles. Y mi padre me llevó para que--para, hasta allá. Así que la primera semana él estuvo allá, quedándose en un hotel. Yo, haciendo mis matriculas y demás. Y me sentí muy, pues, muy cómoda, muy tranquila. Cuando él se fue, me empezaron las clase, yo tenía...Acabo de cumplir 18 años. Y estaba haciendo mi año de PhD, así que no tenía mucho tiempo para pensarlo mucho (se ríe). Para pensar en que iba, en los que estaba haciendo, ¿no? Y tenía clases, tenía--no tenía más que trabajar, yo tenía un scholarship, un Oakley Fellowship, de hecho. Entonces, como con el Oakley no tenía que trabajar podía, como, concentrarme completamente en mis estudios. El Oakley me pagaba la matricula, los libros, me pagaban, me daban 200 dólares al mes para lo que yo quisiera. Me pagaba los viajes a Puerto Rico. Pues, era un fellowship muy, muy generoso. Y por lo tanto no tenía ningún problema económico. Estaba quedándome en los dormitorios. Era una vida de lujo en realidad. Inmigrante de lujo. Y por lo tanto, pues, no recuerdo grandes complicaciones a parte de las clases, que era--ser estudiantes graduada a esa edad es una locura. Sí, era una locura. Y aparte de que mis compañeros me llamaban "the kid", aparte de ser "the kid", pues, no tenía ningún problema. Y, al contrario, pasé los dos años que estuve en UNC--en USC--muy bien, muy feliz, y muy conectada con mis colegas y mis trabajos y yendo a casa muy a menudo. Mi primer año en--la segunda vez que regresé a EE.UU fue muchos años después. Ya tenía un PhD, ya era mujer casada. Tenía tres hijos. Era una experiencia completamente diferente. Pero también en este caso, pues, venía con mi esposo que venía a un trabajo muy bien pagado. Una área urbana que es Raleigh, North Carolina. Compramos una casa, me puse los hijos en la escuela. Mi primer mes fue un torbellino de actividad. Buscando donde poder poner los niños, llevarlos a la escuela. Establecer la casa. Comprar muebles, hacer las cosas que hace la gente cuando esté empezando a mudarse a un lugar. Así que, fue duro, fue complicado, fue muy divertido. Hice muchas amistades, más o menos lo mismo que la vez anterior, pero también es mi inmigración de lujo. Porque no pasé unas dificultades que pasan otras personas que vienen sin trabajo, que vienen a un futuro incierto.
KG: ¿Y ya había obtenido un trabajo Ud.?
JM: Yo había trabajado en la Universidad de Puerto Rico, sí, y en la Universidad de las Islas Vírgenes, que mencioné arriba. Y aquí, no, aquí no tenía trabajo yo. Pero, como mi esposo tenía un trabajo muy bien pagado, pues no había ninguna necesidad. Sí, llevé mi curriculum vitae a la Universidad de State, en Raleigh. Por aquello que me hubiera gustado trabajara. Inmediatamente me contrataron. Y llegué en junio y en agosto ya estaba trabajando. Sí fue bastante sorprendente. Y también con colegas muy divertidos, muy simpáticos que, algunos de los cuales todavía son amigos míos. Así que, que, no he tenido grandes complicaciones.
KG: Bueno.
JM: Aparte de las complicaciones normales de estar lejos de tu familia. Y sintiendo un poco fuera del sitio.
KG: Y, bueno, ¿Hubo algo que no esperaba? ¿Algo la segunda vez?
JM: Pues, California y North Carolina son estados muy diferentes. No esperaba que hubiera tantas diferencias entre ellos. Así, cuando estuve en California yo sabía que el sur de EE.UU es muy distinto porque mis compañeros de clase a veces hablaban de los sureños. Bueno, tú te imaginas. Entonces, claro yo sabía que estaba diferente. Además de cuando dije a mi madre que venía para acá se puso furiosa conmigo. Dijo "¿Cómo que te vas para el sur de EE.UU? Con la historia que tiene esta gente, tú no sabes que hace poco había letreros que decían 'no dogs and Puerto Ricans allowed'. ¿Cómo te vas a un lugar así?" Así venía pensando que ésta va a ser duro y difícil. Y cuando vine en los 80, aquí la población era muy homogénea. Decir, no había tanta variedad como ahora, no había tanta diversidad. Y, pero yo estaba tan ocupada con mis hijos y mi trabajo y mi marido que no había tiempo para ponerse a pensar si la gente me aceptaba o no me aceptaba. A mi la verdad es que no me importaba, a fin de cuentas.
KG: Bueno.
JM: ¿Verdad?
KG: Es mejor. Ud. enseñó en la Universidad de Puerto Rico y la Universidad de las Islas Vírgenes, pero ¿Puede contarme de su primer día como profesora en la Universidad de Puerto Rico?
JM: (Se ríe) Lo recuerdo muy bien. Porque había acabado de terminar, bueno, había justo—me terminé la maestría en USC. Y estaba empezando el doctorado. Y mi padre me dijo, él era rector del departamento de lenguas, me dijo "Mira, aquí se acaba de abrir una plaza, un trabajo, para una persona y va ser muy difícil de llenar esta plaza porque necesitamos a alguien que puede enseñar francés, alemán y latín. Así que va a ser muy difícil encontrar a alguien así. Pero yo sé que tú lo puedes hacer. Y tu madre me está volviendo loco porque no quiere que te quedes en California. Que dos años ya basta y que deberías de venir. Que tú eres muy joven, que tú eres..." Que era una joven, que blah blah blah. Entonces, tanta fue la presión de papá y mamá, sobre todo de mamá, que tomé mis exámenes de maestría y me vine. Me vine con la maestría y dejé el doctorado a la mitad. Cuando llegué, el decano de la facultad me mandó a llamar. Y me dijo, "Te damos este trabajo a pesar de que eres muy joven y que no [...] esta experiencia porque tu padre es un profesor distinguido. Y asumimos que va a ser tu mentor. Y que tú vas a responderle a él por los trabajos que hagas y que vas a trabajar como el ha trabajado. Oh, no pressure! Entonces le dije, bueno. Y me dieron dos clases de francés principiantes el primer año, dos clases de alemán--oh no, it's not over yet--dos clases de alemán como principiante, y una clase de latín de principiante. Todas cinco clases en el semestre. Esto no es por un año esto es todas las clases, todos los días. Y eran cuarenta estudiantes en cada clase. Oh no, no, en latín no había cuarenta, pero en francés y alemán, sí. Había solamente 20 o algo así. Y los de latín eran estudiantes graduados que tenían latín como requisito. Y los de francés y alemán eran estudiantes de primer año. La mayoría de los de francés eran de historia, de pedagogía. Y los de alemán casi todos eran de ciencias. Curioso, ¿no? Pues yo recuerdo el primer día que fui a clase. Porque eran los años en que las mujeres se pusieron minifaldas. Y yo tenía una minifalda color azul celeste, algo así como Carolina blue. Entonces era como un baby doll. O estilo de baby doll, era, así con puntillitas, así muy chiquito, muy inocente. No? Y era un salón muy grande, muy grande con pisos de madera, con grandes ventanas. Y había cuarenta y tantos estudiantes en el salón. Estaba lleno. Y en el catalogo había aparecido el nombre de mi padre, que es el mismo que el mío en aquella época. Entonces los estudiantes lo estaban esperando a él. Porque el enseñaba el mismo tipo de curso. Entonces cuando llego yo, entro por la puerta--estaban todos los estudiantes sentados--entro por la puerta, y vi a todas aquellas caras y se van quedando todos en silencio. Yo oigo una voz en la ultima voz en la ultima fila, "Ay, pero sí es una nena!" (Se ríe). No sé. Yo vine y hubiera salido corriendo, pero no me quedé y di mi clase. Y salí bien, no? Pero la verdad es que era mucho trabajo. Yo, los primeros cuatro o cinco años que enseñé en la Universidad de Puerto Rico terminaba el semestre cada año, cada semestre enferma. Me dio por la nucleosis. Me dio pulmonía. Me dio, que sé yo, me dio measles, me dio varicela. Es decir, quedaba tan exhausta al fin del semestre porque eran muchas clases, muchos estudiantes, mucho trabajo. Solamente una persona joven puede hacer un trabajo así. Es imposible. Los fines de semana, me iba con mis amigos, me desaparecía. Porque también es una sociedad pequeña, los profesores tenemos un aspecto social muy fuerte. No? Es profesor es una persona respetable. Aunque tengo 20 año, dice una niña, una nena. Es una persona respetable, es una persona que se supone que seba mucho, no? Entonces la presión, además de ser de una familia conocida, llegaba el fin de semana y quería salir y irme de la ciudad, no? Me iba con mis amigas al sur de la isla. mis amigas tenían un barco de vela. Y nos íbamos a pasar, a navegar el fin de semana. Sin zapatos, sin bañarme, sin peinarme, sin cepillarme los dientes. Con una camiseta de USC y los pantalones--feliz! Completamente feliz. Para volver el lunes a clase otra vez la profesora, tú sabes. Así que este fue mi primera experiencia como profesora. Un poco extraña, pero sí.
KG: Bueno, no puedo imaginar enseñar una clase de 40 personas al tener 20 años.
JM: Te imaginas eso, ¿no? Yo tampoco creo que podrías. No volvería a ser.
KG: Y, mi próxima pregunta es ¿cómo eran diferentes las universidades en comparación con la UNC, desde de la perspectiva de una profesora?
JM: Bueno, yo creo que primero que nada hay que ver que estas universidades están en lugares donde--éste es el tercer mundo. Es un mundo dónde los recursos son diferentes. Donde las necesidades son distintas. donde la gente tiene otras expectativas de lo que el país debe ser. Y de lo que las instituciones tienen que contribuir. Y por lo tanto en UNC yo espero más de mis estudiantes porque asumo que mi trabajo aquí es servir de facilitador. De ayudar a mis estudiantes a crecer como individuos, como intelectuales. Y a mejorar su conocimientos de mundo si en posible. Pero la responsabilidad está en ti, Katie, en el otro de mis estudiantes. En los países en que yo he enseñado, en Puerto Rico y en las Islas Vírgenes, el estudiante no viene al salón de clases con los recursos, ni intelectuales, ni sociales y económicos, que trae al salón de clases de UNC. Entonces estos estudiantes requieren una relación diferente con el profesor. Requieren un tipo de acercamiento muy distinto. Hay que, hay que apoyar no solamente el desarrollo intelectual, sino el desarrollo humano, y social y económico del estudiante. Yo por alguna razón yo llegaba al fin de semana tan exhausta y era porque estaba manejando una serie de situaciones mucho más complicadas que mi vida propia. Que eran mucho más, que tenían retos mucho mayores de lo que yo había enfrentado jamás. Y también, una justificación mucho más inmediata. Así, yo puedo en UNC, yo te puedo decir "Ah bueno, Katie, tú necesitas esto. Vamos a, te contesto mañana. O te contesto pasado mañana. O vamos a ver como podemos hacer esto." En un país donde los recursos son limitados, la respuesta tiene que llegar en el momento. Y tiene que ser una respuesta eficiente, eficaz, completa. Es un trabajo diferente. No solamente por el tipo de estudiante y por el tipo de institución en el cual el profesor trabaja, sino porque su--lo que viene llamado a hacer, su misión--es diferente.
KG: Me imagino. Y, ahora ¿podría contarme como su primer día como profesora en UNC?
JM: En UNC. Ay, si me acordaré. Pues, tenía una oficina en el segundo piso de Dey hall (se ríe). Y era como Grand Central porque--a mi me gusta tener la puerta de la oficina abierta para que mis estudiantes se sientan que pudieran entrar, que son parte de mi momento de mi trabajo--pero, era tanta la gente que pasaba por allí que era muy simpático, no? Porque el ruido era constante. Pero pasaron dos cosas simpáticas que creo que sean más interesantes que lo normal. Que llevan un poquito más para allá. Uno fue que era muy temprano en la mañana y yo estaba sentada en mi escritorio con mi espalda asi a la puerta. Y oigo una voz de mujer que dice "I've got to see who this Julia Mack is." Y me doy media vuelta y miro y encuentro en la puerta una señora rubia, de pelo riso, típicamente gringa que me dice, "Hola, yo me llamo Julia Mack." Y yo le digo, "Pues, yo también." Y me dice "Yo soy estudiante graduada de inglés y tengo mi oficina dos pisos más arriba." Con el tiempo a llegué a conocerla. Y es una suerte que su política y la mía son muy parecidas porque durante el tiempo que ella estuve en UNC nos confundían, la una con la otra, todo el tiempo. Julia Mack aparecía en los periódicos en Chapel Hill, en las marchas a favor de las mujeres, y en favor de los inmigrante y este otro. "¿Fuiste tú?" Y me decían, "Bravo, bravo," y no, no, no ésta es la otra! Mi doppleganger, esta otra Julia. Pero bueno, yo la mando a hacer estas cosas! Sí, pasó esto. Y pasó también que mi esposo, le había dado su abuela unas alfombras pequeñas. Unas alfombras persa, libanesa no sé. Del norte de África, quizás. No sé. Muy bonitas, de colores muy brillantes. Y como la oficina era tan drab. Pues, yo me traje tres o cuatros de estas alfombritas y las puse en diferentes partes de mi oficina. Y un día, como a las dos o tres semanas de haber llegado aquí, estoy así sentada en mi escritorio otra vez, y oigo una persona en la puerta que me dice, "Hola, mi nombre es Sara Ahmed". Y era una profesora egipcia, que en aquella época enseñaba francés con nosotros, que ahora creo que está en el Departamento de Estudios Islámicos, no sé donde estará, pero creo que todavía está en UNC. Ella venía a ver las alfombritas porque resulta que eran prayer rugs y no lo sabía. Ella no me dijo nada, pero después me quede pensando, "Dios mío a lo mejor estoy haciendo algo terrible, un falto de respeto de ponerlas ahí. La gente se para encima!" Pero ella se paró, sí las miró, no sé si fue con admiración o horror, no sé. Algo extraño, ¿no? Pero no me dijo nada. Se presentó y me presenté, nos saludamos. Nos caímos bien, yo creo. Pero aparte de esto, pues nada. Esto fue otro "uh-oh", one of those uh-oh moments! Sí, exacto. Los estudiantes, no lo recuerdo muy bien porque en realidad eran tantos y tantos. Y a la misma vez recuerdo pequeños eventos, por ejemplo un estudiante que aquí en North Carolina--hay una historia con este pajarito, pero no viene al caso--pues, resulta que me habló de que bailaba shag, creo, o algo así. Y me dice, era una clase pequeña, de 15--18 estudiantes, dijo "Esto es lo que bailamos cuando vamos a la playa en el verano." Y yo dije, sí estoy tratando de aprender todo lo que tiene que ver con lo que era, porque sé muy poco. Y me dice, "Ah, pero yo le enseño!" Allí mismo, alguien sacó un disco y me quisieron enseñar a bailar shag los estudiantes de la clase. Bueno, me enseñaron más o menos, pero fue comiquísimo porque ellos se sintieron tan felices de poder ensenarme a mi. No? Y sobre todo ensenarme algo que obviamente yo jamás en mi vida había visto. Pero fue muy divertido. Fue muy agradable y muy alegre.
KG: Ah bueno. Y, otra pregunta sobre ser profesora en la UNC. Quería saber ¿cómo ha cambiado la profesión de ser profesora en Carolina del Norte sobre su carrera?
JM: En mi carrera, cómo ha cambiado. Para mi, sí ha cambiado porque para mi lo más importante es que ahora tenemos cursos para estudiantes hispanohablantes de herencia. Que antes no teníamos. Cuando yo llegué inmediatamente me di cuenta que hacia falta. Que language maintenance era algo importante para mi, para los estudiantes y para la universidad. Pero, que no podía convencer a mis colegas de que instituyéramos estos cursos. Me decían que no había suficientes estudiantes para ponerlos en el programa. Y yo juraba que si, decía "sí, están! Lo que pasa es que ustedes no preguntan. Ellos no dicen que son hispanos porque Uds. no les preguntan si los son. Entonces no se dan cuenta." Entonces un semestre le pregunté, mandé un email a todos mis colegas y dije "Busquen en sus clases". Y cuando encontré los números se dieron cuenta de que sí yo tenía razón. Fui al director del departamento y en este momento estuvimos en un cambio de directores. Y llegó una persona al departamento que era lingüista y logré convencerlo que me dejara para dar estos cursos. Y para mi esto es el cambio más importante. Que, sobre todo, como es más visible la población hispanohablante en North Carolina y en la universidad, estos cursos han tenido--todos los semestres empecé con dificultad. No aparecen estudiantes, los cursos parecen que los van a quitar, tienen dos estudiantes, después tres, después cuatro, y después seis, ocho, diez y al final termino con el curso lleno con 20 o más estudiantes. Este semestre les he dicho que no quiero más estudiantes que los 20 que tenía, he tenido que sacar gente del curso. Así que efectivamente los cursos se pueden dar. Hay gente aquí que quiere continuar con el español que ha aprendido en casa. Para mi, eso es un cambio significativo, importante, visible.
KG: Y ¿Cuáles son los desafíos para Ud. como profesora en UNC y cómo los ha superado?
JM: Los desafíos siempre tienen que ver con los estudiantes. Y cómo hacer la mejor clase posible y el mejor, la mejor experiencia educativa. Y esto no es solamente por decir, en realidad, yo invierto la mayor parte de mi tiempo cuando--yo estoy en esta oficina trabajando en los cursos y preparándome, leyendo, organizando, haciendo todo lo posible para que la clase que voy a dar sea lo más, lo mas interactiva posible, y sobre todo, en no decirle a mis estudiantes todo lo que sé. Porque lo que me interesa a mi es que ellos busquen en si mismos todo lo que ellos saben. Entonces es muy fácil para un profesor pararse en frente de una clase y dar como una conferencia, a lecture. Es fácil. Cualquier tema, por 40 minutos--Wind me up and set me up! Y yo empiezo a hablar. Pero lo interesante para mi es lograr que los estudiantes piensen, que se queden con algo, aunque sea una cosa pequeña y se lo lleven consigo y se queden pensando, que le siga molestando hasta el día siguiente. Y esto requiere mucha planificación por mi parte y es definitivamente el reto mayo para mi de ser profesora. Cuando tenia niños en casa el reto más grande era sacar tiempo para hacer eso y darle tiempo a mis hijos, y darle tiempo a mi casa, a mis cosas. Cuando estuve un tiempo escribiendo cuentos de detectives, escribí unos cuentos detectives. Cuando estaba haciendo esto, pues, el reto era sacar tiempo para mis cosas, para mis novelas. Cuando hacia también los cursos, mis clases y mis cosas. Así que siempre es una cuestión--yo creo que el factor tiempo siempre ha sido el reto más grande.
KG: Y mi ultima pregunta es si ¿Ud. tiene algunos consejos para futuros profesores de la UNC o profesores en el sistema educativo de Carolina del Norte en general?
JM: Si, si tengo. Y no es duda--no es solamente mía la sugerencia--todo los que estamos aquí, que nos estamos dando cuenta de que los tiempos van cambiando. Que la universidad se hace cada vez más un negocio, que se convierte cada vez más en producto, una marca, un brand que se le vende al estudiante. Y no quiero ser romántica, pero pienso que el desarrollo del individuo, sobre todo el las humanidades, el desarrollo del individuo como persona, como un ser humano, el desarrollo del concepto del tramada moral del individuo, de su capacidad para escoger una vida fructífera y positiva y pacifica y justa, eso necesita un espacio donde se le permita al estudiante cometer errores, tomar una clase que no le sirva para nada, supuestamente. Tomar un cuso simplemente por curiosidad. Meterse en cosas que no son libros, pero que tienen algo también de enseñar. Todo esa experiencia de desarrollo humano se pierde si lo que queremos es un proceso por el cual, entres por un lado y salgas por el otro, como salchichas. Es decir, que salgas formado con dos lasitas, una a cada lado. Y tienes un titulo de UNC. Si es el camino por el cual vamos, es la meta que [...] en el siglo 21, mi recomendación a mis colegas es que resistan. De que resistan, de que se nieguen. A mis estudiantes, que piensen, que escriban poesía, que se metan en cursos por curiosidad, que inventen cosas, que se meten en los líos, que salgan de estas paredes, que pregunten, que argumenten, que peleen. Y esto cuesta tiempo y esto no es el business plan.
KG: Estoy de acuerdo con esto. Y esto fue mi ultima pregunta, así que gracias por hacer esta entrevista.
JM: De nada.
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-0812 -- Mack, Julia Cardona.
Description
An account of the resource
Julia Mack is a Spanish professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Mack was born in Puerto Rico and moved to the United States to study for her Masters degree. She has taught at three colleges and universities in North Carolina, including UNC where she has taught for the past twenty years. Mack discusses her choice to become a professor and how her father was a role model for the profession. She identifies as Hispanic, but feels that she is a minority in her profession more for being a female and a mother than for her ethnicity. As a professor, she believes that her most important roles are showing Hispanic students that a career in academia is possible and serving as a resource for her colleagues in the Department of Romance Studies. Mack closes the first interview by sharing a few examples of how she has fostered relationships with Hispanic students by showing them that their Hispanic heritage is something to be proud of. In the second interview, Mack describes being an “immigrant by luxury.” She talks about studying for her Masters in California and later returning to teach at the university level. She says that her greatest challenge has been creating interactive classes and her greatest success was starting a program of language maintenance courses for Spanish-speaking students at UNC. She closes her second interview by advising future professors to foster students’ curiosity and to resist the university becoming too much like a business.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
25 February 2015
Format
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R0812_Audio.mp3
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/26896">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/84404b06dfa7956f140148806f91f3f8.mp3
d70c7522d4a4909ba1402004fff848ea
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/f1f3064829890ec4aadeac928dfe721f.pdf
0dfd67a3107918b094415ef151c26158
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0801
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
17 April 2015
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Cabrera, Irene.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Professors
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Bogota -- Colombia
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Chapel Hill -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Gutt, Katie.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Spanish
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Irene Cabrera is a visiting professor of Latin American studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill for the 2014-2015 academic year. Cabrera was born in Bogotá, Colombia and has lived in the United States for the past three years to study for her second Masters and to teach at the university level. In this interview, Cabrera describes becoming a teaching assistant as an undergraduate and how this led to a career as a professor. She talks at length about her parents’ bedtime stories and how they, along with a faculty mentor, have modeled her style of teaching and interacting with students. She believes that her primary role as a professor is to make her students think deeply about the issues in their community. Cabrera also talks about the problems she sees in the American university system and how those problems are being exported to the university system in Colombia. Finally, Cabrera states that the biggest discomfort she felt during her time in the U.S. was seeing so many Latinos, a group she identifies with, working in the service sector while there is a deficit in Latino leadership at the university. She hopes that the legacy she leaves at UNC is having her students think about these issues of inequality and how who they are and what they do factor into these community issues.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Irene Cabrera by Katie Gutt, 17 April 2015, R-0801, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/26857
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Racism and discrimination; Higher Education; Identity
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Katie Gutt: Mi nombre es Katie Gutt. Estoy acá con la Profesora Irene Cabrera. Hoy es el 17 de abril de mil novecient--uh--quince [error: 2015]. Estamos en Dey Hall. Hoy vamos a hablar de su experiencia como inmigrante y profesora en Estados Unidos y en Carolina del Norte. Y mi primera pregunta es ¿Dónde nació Ud.?
Irene Cabrera: Yo nací en Bogotá, Colombia.
KG: Bueno. Y ¿vivías en otra parte de EE.UU antes de venir acá?
IC: Sí. Llegue a EE.UU primero a Lexington, Kentucky por un mes y luego estuve en Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania por aproximadamente dos años. Y el ultimo año estaba en Carolina del Norte.
KG: Ok. Y ¿Por qué viniste a Carolina del Norte?
IC: Vine a Carolina del Norte como visitante académica y profesora, con el propósito de tener más experiencia laboral y acompañar a mi esposo.
KG: ¿Y qué hace su esposo acá?
IC: Mi esposo estaba terminando su doctorado aquí en la universidad.
KG: Y, ¿dónde estudió Ud. al nivel universitario, empezando con su carrera de grado...?
IC: Perfecto. Hice mi pregrado en la Universidad Externado de Colombia en Bogotá. Luego hice un estudio posgrado que en Colombia se llama especialización, por un año en geografía en la Universidad Nacional de Colombia. Y después, recibí una beca para venir a EE.UU y hacer un Masters en administración publica y estudios internacionales. Y al mismo tiempo estudios latinoamericanos. Entonces fue una doble Masters en estos dos años.
KG: Ok. Y cuál beca recibió?
IC: Recibí una beca Fulbright para venir acá hacer estudios posgrados. Y con la misma beca Fulbright logré tener un permiso para lo que llaman un "post-academic training" que te permite tener un año de experiencia, un año de enseñar. El año de experiencia es que estoy aquí como "visiting scholar".
KG: Ah entonces, la beca es para estar aquí en Carolina del Norte también.
IC: Exacto, digamos que la beca es para hacer estudios de posgrado y después la beca se extiende para que yo pueda tener una experiencia adicional a mis estudios. Esta experiencia adicional es justamente continuar con la carrera como profesora investigadora que venia aprovechando en Colombia.
KG: Y entonces ¿está estudiando en la--sí, en UNC?
IC: No. Ahora no estoy estudiando. Ya terminé en Pittsburgh. Terminé mis dos años de maestría y lo que estoy haciendo acá es simplemente investigando. Estoy trabajando en un libro, y enseñando clases.
KG: Ok. Bueno. Y ¿cómo se involucró en el sistema educativo, como carrera--profesión?
IC: Empecé--Perfecto. Desde que estaba en la universidad, siempre me gustó, digamos, la dinámica de la clase. Tuve profesores que me inspiraron a hacer una investigación, pues, más rigorosa. Encontré unos temas que me llamaron mucho más la atención. Y empecé justamente como, lo que llaman acá, como "teaching assistant", como estudiante para algunos profesores. Y también hice una tesis en mi pregrado. Y esta tesis de mi pregrado fue por así decirlo, premiada, fue sobresaliente en la universidad. Y sobre esto, pues, a los que ha hecho otra investigación, que les pareció que mi trabajo era, pues, sobresaliente. Y me invitaron a hacer un proyecto de investigación por mi cuenta, sola. Y al mismo tiempo preparar una clase, con base en esa tesis. Entonces, como muy joven, empecé básicamente a los 21 años, como profesora. Y, pues siempre me gustó la dinámica de poder dialogar y emprender y tener un espacio en donde se generan reflexiones con los estudiantes. Y, pues, también poder discutir que pasa, no, en el mundo en términos de conocernos a nosotros mismos más, y en donde estamos, bien. Y también ver que piensan los otros y como se construye un conocimiento del mundo en el salón de clase.
KG: Bueno. Y, bueno, esto va con la otra pregunta, pero ¿por qué decidió Ud. ser profesora?
IC: Bueno, decidí ser profesora porque siempre es algo también un poco personal, ¿no? Tuve la fortuna que mis padres nos contaban muchas historias para dormir que no eran las historias más comunes para los niños. Me contaban historias sobre la gente, lo que pasaba en el mundo, por ejemplo. Entonces, entre estas historias recuerdo la historia de Victor Hara, para irme a dormir, ¿no? Un músico, pues, justamente chileno que termina siendo asesinado durante la dictadura de Pinochet. Y cuando el estaba preso en el estadio, pues, justamente terminaron cortando sus manos, la lengua. Y pues, esto, de una manera es un reflejo, no, de que hay violencia en el mundo. ¿Por qué hay estas violencias? ¿Por qué hay estas injusticias? Entonces, siempre tuve grandes interrogantes sobre el por qué y por eso también me interesaba desde muy niña de entender qué pasa la justicia, qué pasa por ejemplo con el sufrimiento humano. Pues, crecí en un país con un conflicto armado desde los años 60. Bueno, una historia de violencia larga, y pues, finalmente pienso que los cambios que uno puede hacer en el mundo empiezan con cosas pequeñas. Y encontré que, justamente, el salón de clase, los estudiantes, tener como espacios de conversación sobre lo que pasa alrededor del país, sobre lo que pasa también en otros lados del mundo, pues, a uno por lo menos le genera más conciencia sobre en donde estamos. Entonces, pienso que mi labor como profesora es también hacer los preguntas para por lo menos indagar lo que está pasando con el mundo. Y si tenemos conciencia sobre lo que esta pasando en el mundo, entonces, tal vez por algún lado acá un estudiante pueda hacer algo. Fue como una decisión de que era aportar a un proceso social, no todos tienen el privilegio de estudiar, y los que estudian y los que tienen la capacidad de, en algún momento ocupar un puesto importante o un, por ejemplo, continuar apoyando simplemente a sus familias, pues por lo menos quedan con algunas ideas de reflexión sobre la vida, sobre hasta qué punto la justicia social [...] en el espacio, en el lugar donde vivimos.
KG: Entonces, decidir ser profesora es así...que--.
IC: Sí, puede ser, exacto. Pienso que mi intención es sentarme y aprender. Porque no solamente pienso que yo puedo partir conocimientos sino que el estar siempre en un espacio educativo es un proceso que se genera conocimiento mutuo, un conocimiento bilateral. No es jerárquica, sino que uno está en constante aprendizaje. Y si uno adquiere esa, digamos, esa inquietud para aprender, entonces pues, yo pienso que se puede generar procesos muy positivos. Porque si todos estamos dispuestos a aprender un poco del otro, entonces, es posible sensibilizarnos y entender más al otro y no simplemente rechazarlo o por así decirlo, ignorarlo. Y mucho que tiene que ver con procesos de violencia pasa por una indiferencia a lo que sucede en el mundo.
KG: Bueno. Y ¿hubo un momento en que se dio cuenta que había elegido la profesión perfecta para Ud.?
IC: Todavía... Bueno pues no sé si es una profesión perfecta, pero si me siento feliz cuando, cuando veo que los estudiantes se me acercan y me dicen, 'profesora, yo nunca había pensado en que esto fuera un problema" o como que se generan inquietudes. Y por lo menos cuando uno es capaz en sembrar en el corazón de una persona, o generar una inquietud intelectual por investigar más, pues yo digo bueno, es una persona que de alguna manera me demuestra a mi que vale la pena seguir adelante con cosas tan simples como plantear una pregunta de exposición o simplemente también, por ejemplo, escribir. Yo también soy escritora de artículos, y participo en libros, entonces es muy interesante como uno puede empezar a intercambiar el entendimiento que uno tiene del mundo con otras personas. Entonces, para mi, eso no tiene precia, no tiene precio. Y por eso pienso que la investigación y la enseñanza han sido perfectos para mi para justamente cumplir como--esa intención que tengo de aportar, de por lo menos generar un poco de conciencia colectiva.
KG: Ok. Y, bueno, ¿piensa en cambiar de carrera--de profesión--algún día? ¿Piensa que la academia es el mejor puesto?
IC: No solamente he trabajado como profesora. También estuve participando en la Real Académica que apoyaba el labor de Naciones Unidas para investigar temas de mercenarismo y contratistas privados. Y por eso había-- pues, aprendí un poco de--digamos el trabajo de derechos humanos, el trabajo de activistas. Y es un trabajo que merece, a mi modo de ver, todo el respeto y toda la admiración porque la verdad es que uno se enfrenta a muchos riesgos, ¿no? Entonces uno, pues estamos hablando de violaciones de derechos humanos en que el estado es implicado, entonces hay que ser muy valientes por continuar por este camino y denunciar irregularidades que se presentan. Pero, pero, pues digamos que en términos de mi carrera, tuve estos pequeños espacios que a mi modo de ver, de un activista, y pienso que es algo que también hacemos en el interno de las universidades cuando intentamos involucrar a los estudiantes con otros grupos sociales que están por fuera de la universidad. Cuando, por ejemplo, estamos generando eventos donde invitamos a gente que no necesariamente académica para que compartan sus experiencias. Entonces, esto también es activismo social. Entonces, tal vez no encuentro que la etiqueta o el nombre, o sea, es simplemente profesor porque enseña, sino al contrario. Creo que a veces uno se puede servir de puente. Y entonces, es un puente de doble vida para los que están por fuera de la academia que quieren contar un poco de lo que está pasando en el mundo y también para los estudiantes que están interesados en entender lo que está pasando en el mundo, y los profesores también. Porque, pues, estamos en un proceso, digamos, infinito de conocimiento, tu sabes. Nos [...] muy poco. Yo he aprendido mucho estando acá. Nunca me hubiera imaginado, pues, como profesora, pienso que es increíble estar en otro país y en aprender también las diferencias, no, en los sistemas educativos de mi país de origen y en Estados Unidos.
KG: Sí, me imagino. Y, ¿tiene Ud. un maestro para su carrera o para su enseñanza?
IC: Sí, tengo la suerte de tener mi--yo le molesto que es mi sensei, mi tutor. Justamente el fue quien me guió por--en mi tiempo de pregrado. Él es un profesor también del Externado, y pues su experiencia de vida, su experiencia de docente, también es iluminadora para mi proceso. Porque es una persona que es práctica, entregada, también a que--pues, la gente comprenda un poco el mundo que tenga, también, un sentido critico de como se entienda la realidad. Entonces, pues, pienso que es bueno tener esos, no sé si la palabra sea modelos, pero un amigo que te permite justamente discutir temas difíciles porque el mundo esta lleno de dificultades y a veces es complicado contar con la persona en la cual confías, que te sirve para guiar un poco tu proceso profesional, tu proceso ético, tu proceso también, humano.
KG: Bueno. Entiendo. Y ¿ cómo es diferente la universidad en Carolina del Norte y las universidades dónde estudió en Colombia?
IC: Bueno, pienso que el sistema educativo de Colombia también esta en un proceso de imitación de lo que sucede aquí. Porque, por ejemplo, las universidades en Colombia cada vez más intentan, por ejemplo, continuar con esos mecanismos, estas certificaciones que se han empleado aquí en EE.UU, donde pues, los profesores tienen que tener necesariamente un PhD. Digamos, las calificaciones de los estudiantes tienen que ser cada vez más regulares, cada vez más estandarizados. Entonces, pienso que hay una influencia muy grande dentro de la formularizacion educativa de aquí en los Estados Unidos que también se refleja en Colombia. Y, esto tiene elementos positivos y--tiene implicaciones positivas y negativas. Positivas, porque obligar a las universidades a organizarse, a tener personas que están interesadas en avanzar estos estudios y también a tener una referencia de calificación. Por ejemplo, que se supone que te permite comparar de forma con mayor calidad entre los estudiantes. Pero esto también tiene unas implicaciones negativas porque en Colombia tenemos excelentes maestros que llevan toda una vida enseñando y nunca han tenido un doctorado y son rechazados hoy en día en las universidades porque no tienen un doctorado. Entonces, esto también se convierte, como, en un sistema de exclusión de aquellos que no cuentan con las acreditaciones, con un titulo de doctorado. Y ojala que sea un doctorado de una universidad, lo que llaman 'del norte', entonces, europeo o estadounidense. Y también en términos de los estudiantes es muy problemático, a mi modo de ver, el hecho de que, pues, casi todos están enfocados en la nota. Algo que me sorprende mucho, que me siento hoy que me preocupa en EE.UU, es que se siente mucho la competencia. Es un sistema muy dedicado a la competencia, donde tenemos los estudiantes que la palabra como--creo que lo que se usa es 'over achievers'--necesitan que todo sea perfecto, que todo sea muy bien. Pero, entonces, la pregunta es ¿es suficiente tener un [...] perfecto? Con esto no puede tener un proceso educativo donde no es [...] la nota, sino que el proceso de repensar cual es su lugar en el mundo, desde cualquier carrera en que está. Cual puede ser realmente como su trabajo y obviamente es hacer parte de los retos modernos, ¿no? Cómo crear sistemas educativos propios que se ajustan a las realidades de cada país. Pero yo pienso que algo también que es diferente es, de estar aquí en Estados Unidos, es que, por ejemplo, hay un montón de recursos. Las bibliotecas son increíbles. No tengo manera de agradecer la oportunidad de acceder a tanto material visual, escrito, que pues se encuentra disponible. Pues, cuando uno compara eso con la posibilidad de tener encuentros con otros profesores, pues esto es cada vez más difícil porque hay una carrera constantes de donde los profesores tienen que escribir. Es como 'publish or perish' (se ríe). Publica o fallece. Entonces, los profesores están en un corre, corre, en una carrera que es increíble. Entonces, yo acá, es difícil encontrar, por ejemplo, ese tiempo de sentarte a almorzar y alojar como sí he tenido en Colombia. Estos tiempos también hacen parte de, a mi modo de ver, de las diferencias culturales en términos de tiempo. Pero, pero, bueno. Hace parte también de los ajustes. Pero por encima un poco es, poco tiempo para responder. Pero quisiera partir de estas presiones en breve.
KG: Sí, no, esto es muy interesante. Y lo de la perfección de los estudiantes--que quieren lograr esta perfección--¿cree que esto está llegando a Colombia todavía, o no, los estudiantes no se preocupan tanto por la nota o no?
IC: Pues, lo que pasa es que cuando uno tiene, por ejemplo, estudiantes aquí, la verdad hemos aprendido... Una vez un estudiante que acaba de terminar como a sus 25 años su doctorado. Pero nunca había salido de la universidad, nunca había viajado, no sabía que hacer con su vida. No sabía realmente donde quería trabajar, qué quería hacer, o cuales eran los temas que realmente le gustaban. Entonces el sistema te obliga a estudiar, a mantenerte ocupado, la educación, a mi modo de ver, es una distracción de lo que suceda en el mundo. Estas concentrado en estudiar y continuar en, tienes que sacar los títulos más altos, que sabes es tener su doctorado. Pero, en qué momento uno se toma el momento o un espacio para comprender donde esta, ¿cuales son los problemas aquí en la esquina? Entonces, hay segregación residencial aquí en Chapel Hill, entonces la gente esta metida en la biblioteca y esta en su habitación estudiando, pero se nos olvide esta conexión con la realidad! Entonces, esto sucede un poco en Colombia. La absolución no es todo el mundo a tener un doctorado, no creo esto sea simplemente el comino. Y pues, parte de, del problema que yo veo con la excesiva presión que hay aquí en términos educativos es que también se convierten en procesos dolorosos aquí. Hay personas que terminan frustrados porque no obtienen, digamos, las notas más altas, en cuando--en realidad hay procesos de aprendizaje muy diferentes. Y cada vez más, bueno, cuando hay libertades acá [...] jugar con diferentes metodologías de aprendizaje. Pero si hay muchas veces estudiantes que se sienten frustrados durante su carrera porque tienen unas exigencias, digamos, muy muy altas que no responden a los contextos en la realidad. Uno no puede pedir a un estudiante que ha tenido escasos recursos, dificultades para acceder a sus libros, o dificultades inclusive para escribir, o leer. Por ejemplo, si estás tomando un curso en otro idioma que se desempeña de igual manera a una persona que estudia toda su vida en un colegio bilingüe, y que habla perfecto los dos idiomas, ahí hay los contextos sociales que se dibujan en el momento de calificar. Y que--es difícil, como, poder, como profesor--resolver esto. Que tenemos estudiantes que vienen de contextos muy diferentes.
KG: Entonces, ¿esto se ve también en Colombia que hay diferentes niveles de recursos?
IC: Claro, o sea, y las oportunidades que tiene cada estudiante son muy distintas. Y obviamente el porcentaje de la población que pueda acceder a educación universitaria es, digamos, es muy bajo. Y, lo cierto es que a uno si--las personas que llegan a la educación universitaria, pues, también llegan con niveles muy diferentes. Entonces, no es que la calidad educativa de la educación, del colegio, que va a definir a uno. Porque yo pienso que cada persona tiene la posibilidad de su propio interés y su propio esfuerzo. No? Como, de entrar en un procesos educativo que termine por llevándolo a espacios personales y profesionales muy interesantes. Pero sí, pienso que como sistema educativo, no hay una verdadera conciencia sobre la universidad de los contextos, de los cuales llegan estos estudiantes. Y que, también, el propio contenido de los que enseñamos es tan estandarizado, está en los libros. Por ejemplo en Colombia, no sé, hay las comunidades indígenas que ahora hacen parte de los procesos universitarios y estas comunidades tienen que verse obligados a mandar sus estudiantes, o a sus jóvenes, por ejemplo, a ciudades lejanas porque es difícil validar la educación propia, la educación indígena como algo formado, como la [...]. Entonces esto es, digamos, otra parte del desconocimiento, de otras formas educativas porque estamos muy concentrados en lo que debe ser, es terminar en la universidad y tener un PhD, pero como si esto fuera la única manera de llegar a ser alguien, ¿no?
KG: Bueno. Y, cuénteme de su trabajo en la UNC como las clases que enseña y la investigación que hace.
IC: Bueno, tuve una experiencia muy interesante el semestre pasado enseñando una clase sobre violencia y movimientos sociales en América Latina. Y, pues, parece que, bueno, es parte de las preocupaciones. Qué pasa en términos de la violencia. Por qué tenemos, por ejemplo, genocidios. Por qué tenemos asesinatos masivos. Y pienso que estar en un proceso de discusión con los estudiantes es muy enriquecedor en términos de saber cuales son sus percepciones, cuales son sus lecturas. Entonces es bonito tener la oportunidad de compartir con diferentes estudiantes literatura internacional muy variada que le permite a uno tener, pues, unas lecturas teóricas, pero también contrastar esto con, digamos, evidencia más real. Entonces, a lo que voy con esto es que el ejercicio con estas clases no solamente es hacer una revisión de la literatura disponible sobre el tema, sino también aterrizarlo a casos concretos que los estudiantes se pueden conectar con la realidad de los países--entonces, que ha pasado en realidad. Entonces, buenos, este curso sobre violencia y movimientos sociales también fue un espacio interesante para poder invitar a personas que han participado directamente en diferentes movimientos sociales en América Latina. Y que los estudiantes pudieran establecer preguntas o diálogos con ellos y ellas. Pues, entonces, también cambia la manera de aprendizar--del aprendizaje--porque no es solamente leer texto y algo teórico, sino también entrar en contacto con una persona que han estado ahí, por ejemplo, se ha visto amenazado por la violencia propio, o esté en un proceso de resistencia. Por ejemplo, en el caso de los Mapuches en Chile, entonces que los estudiantes tengan la oportunidad de establecer preguntas y conocer de manera directa, a través de las historias, que es lo que está sucediendo en estos territorios. Esto pienso que también le da un contexto en, digamos, mucho más humano a la clase. Y pues, en este semestre he podido avanzar también más en, pues, en una investigación que llevo haciendo yo muchos años que tiene que ver con la revolución, del conflicto armado en Colombia, y en particular en las zonas de frontera. Y pues, estoy básicamente construyendo mapas. Acá en la universidad tiene un excelente software de RPG, que es un sistema de información geográfica que me permite comparar la presencia de actores armados--en el contexto colombiano--actores armados que adelantan, por ejemplos, acciones o combates o ataques con, por ejemplo, la presencia de cultivos ilícitos. Entonces, es un proyecto sobre estos bases de datos que me he dedicado escribir. Pues, estar aquí en la universidad ha sido lindo porque tienen espacios muy agradables para hacerlo. Disfruto mucho la naturaleza para afuera. Digamos, sentarme por ejemplo, en mi casa o en la universidad a trabajar sobre ello. Y pues, normalmente los recursos de la biblioteca han sido cruciales para poder avanzar en esta investigación. Y, a parte, digamos, en este semestre, de avanzar en este proyecto, este libro, pues estoy dictando una clase sobre cultura en América Latina. Y esa es una clase que dicto en español para estudiantes que tienen diferentes niveles de castellano. Pero, también ha sido muy interesante porque no solamente me he centrado en American Latina, para que ellos entiendan en que consistan las visiones culturales, las visiones del mundo de estas poblaciones en el cono sur o en el caribe, sino que también espero que ellos comparen estos procesos y conflictos culturales con lo que sucede aquí en EE.UU. Entonces, cuando tenemos casos, por ejemplo, como, casos, por ejemplo, de abusos policiales, como lo que ha sucedido aquí en Carolina del Norte. Pues, hay que entender que los problemas con el racismo no solamente están limitados a lo que muchos llaman los países subdesarrollados, sino que también esta aquí. Está aquí en el asesinato, a mi modo de ver, de tantos jóvenes afro-americanos, pero también hay bastante prejuicio si tenemos en cuenta el caso de los estudiantes musulmanes que se asesinaron aquí en los alrededores de UNC. Entonces es importante también ellos puedan conectar no solamente no que sucede en American Latina, sino que también tengan en cuenta donde están parados, básicamente.
KG: Bueno. Y, ¿cómo estuvo su primer día en la UNC?
IC: Bueno. Algo muy curioso es que no, no tenía como, como tanto, como tantos nervios, por así decirlo, de llegar a un lugar nuevo, porque antes yo estaba en Pittsburgh. Y pues, Pittsburgh es una ciudad donde hay demasiada nubes en el invierno, y pues, la gente se pone un poco introvertida por el frio. Entonces, llegar aquí en agosto del 2014, cuando hay tanto azul, cuando hay el Carolina blue--o el blue Carolina, no sé--. Es, pues, un ambiente que te da la bienvenida, ¿no? Y el verde, esto es positivo. Y, aquí he encontrado personas maravillosas en diferentes departamentos que no solamente a mi, pero también a esposo, nos han apoyado demasiado. Y pienso que no es solamente la institución, con las reglas, que hace el proceso fácil, sino encontrar la calidad humana. Y esa calidad humana he encontrado, no sé hasta que punto pueda mencionar nombres propios, pero, pero en realidad han existido personas en espacios administrativos y también profesores que han sido fundamentales que también nos han dado una mano para poder llegar aquí--un aterrizado más suave--. Siempre cambiar de lugar implica no solamente viajar, sino que es un viaje adentro, uno tiene que saber donde esta. Pues, ese primer día--no sé--es que mi primera impresión fue que es una universidad muy blanca. Debo decirlo, en comparación con la universidad donde estaba en Pittsburgh. Entonces, sí, si estamos hablando de primeras impresiones, me parece que UNC es todavía muy blanca.
KG: Ok. Y, bueno, mi última pregunta sobre su profesión sería ¿podría describirme las relaciones que tiene con sus estudiantes?
IC: Bueno, perfecto. Pienso que algo muy común dentro de los salones de clase es justamente es la distancia, la rigidez que tienen los profesores, respecto a sus alumnos. Como si los profesores fueran quienes tiene conocimiento completo y quienes tienen un nivel inalcanzable, como si fueran los reyes del salón de clase. Y yo--mi filosofía de educación es muy diferente porque yo pienso que hay que estar al nivel de los estudiantes siempre. Y esto es conectarse con quienes son, conectarse con cuales son--sus prioridades--cuáles son sus dificultades. Entonces, desde que sea posible, siempre he intentado primero conocer un poco más a mis estudiantes. No simplemente llegar y ponerles un syllabus, sino intentar comprender quiénes son, qué les guste. No todos los estudiantes a veces les gusta las mismas, o se sienten incomodos, o sienten que funcionen bien con un sistema de calificación. Entonces si puedo ajustar los sistemas de calificación, o las metodologías de los ejercicios, lo que prefieren los estudiantes, pues, esto intento usarlo. Y así mismo darle la libertad que Uds. puedan profundizar lo que realmente les interesen. Porque a veces muchos estudiantes terminan viendo temas que no tienen absolutamente nada que ver con sus prioridades. Pues, yo pienso que es perder el tiempo, un poco. Pero, pues, la relación con los estudiante, pienso que debe basarse primero en respeto mutuo. Y pienso uno está en espacios de clase no para solamente dar conocimiento sino que para construir, de una manera conjunta, el conocimiento.
KG: Bueno. Y ahora mis preguntas cambian un poco en enfoque a la identidad. Entonces, quiero primero preguntarle, ¿como se identifica Ud.? ¿Y que significa esto para Ud.?
IC: Bueno. Son preguntas muy difíciles porque uno puede decir que todo es una construcción social, ¿no? Eso es, como una primera manera de responderlo. Pero, pero puedo decir, bueno, soy mujer. Sí. Hay gente que dice que uno no debe ni siquiera hablar del genero. Que no da relevancia, pero soy mujer y me siento orgullosa en mis cualidades femeninas. Disfruto mi feminidad. También me siento, tengo sentido de ser colombiana. De descendencia campesina. Mis abuelos son campesinos. Y, cuando siempre--cuando voy al medico y tengo que llenar encuestas, siempre está esta casilla de 'qué es' latino, Hispanic... Y la verdad siempre la dejo en blanco porque me parece que son etiquetas de contexto, ¿no? No sé hará acá cuando tiene que votar, muchas veces, o hay estos censos pero qué pasa con estas personas que tienen, tenemos personas, por ejemplo, biraciales. Papá japonés, mamá--no sé--coreana, entonces, pues ¿quién eres tú? Entonces es una pregunta muy personal y pues, estas implicaciones en términos de latino, Hispanic, African American, o Amerindian no son suficientes. Y, al contrario, tienen un contenido político en termino de exclusiones, estos sistemas de dominación bastante marcados. Y sistemas de dominación en términos de que te obligan identificarte, no, y que también te obligan a ti a clasificarte. Pero, pues, si tú me preguntas quién soy, también debo decir que soy una mujer que tiene orígenes indígenas y me identifico también en algún punto con mis raíces africanas. Y, pues, obviamente como en el proceso de estar acá, también me he sentido que efectivamente hay un sentido de pertenencia a Colombia, colombiana. Siento que hay, no siento que Colombia sea un estado uni-nacional, una sola nación. Siento que hay múltiples naciones, hay múltiples mundos en Colombia. Pero me siento identificada con estos múltiples mundos. Hago parte de estos múltiples mundos que están allí. Es decir, solo Colombia, sino lo [...].
KG: Ok. Bueno, ¿se considera una minoría en su profesión? ¿Y por qué? Por cómo se identifica o por otra razón.
IC: Hay muy pocos profesores latinos, lo que llaman acá latinos, y mujeres. Y eso es un elemento también de alarma, no, para tener en cuenta. ¿Cuántos profesores son mujeres y son latinas y están enseñando un curso que realmente quieran? Y digo esto porque hay muchas personas que vienen de Latinoamérica de trabajar aquí a EE.UU y no tienen otra opción que enseñar español. Porque el mercado así les dicta. Yo tuve la oportunidad en la universidad de haber dictado, de estar dictando dos cursos, que son de mi entera, de mi entero interese. Que son de mi grado. Pero lo que veo es que el número, por ejemplo, de mujeres que están en esa misma--o en una posición--por ejemplo, lo que llaman aquí, un tenure track, no lo veo, mi percepción es que no tienen el mismo espacio. Entonces, tal vez no sé si me quieres preguntar algo más específico de esa pregunta general...
KG: No, ¿si esa es una percepción de lo que pasa en UNC o en la profesión en EE.UU?
IC: Sí, bueno. Es que, tal vez como yo te decía hay una falta de dialogo con otros profesores. Entonces, desde esta falta de dialogo con otros profesores, es difícil conocer cual es la realidad de otras personas, otras profesoras por ejemplo, que están en Latinoamérica. Lo que yo puedo ver es, no solamente en UNC sino que en todo EE.UU, lo que he visto en términos de profesoras latinas es para ellas es muy difícil terminar dictando cursos que no sean de español. Entonces, porque, de una manera, la mayoría de las universidades tienen una demanda muy amplia por profesores que estén dispuestos a enseñar español y pagan bien. Pero, pues, esto es problemático. Pero lo que sí pienso es que, algo que me gustaría compartir es que yo intento hablar mucho con las personas de servicio que están aquí en UNC en las cafeterías. Y eso es algo difícil porque te das cuenta que hay grandes dificultades para la población latina, no solamente mujeres sino también hombres, y son minorías que son, a mi modo de ver, maltratado muchas veces porque no hablan el idioma, aunque llevan muchísimos años acá no les van a dar un trabajo diferente que no sea limpiar un baño o hacer el [...] o llevar la basura. Entonces para mi ha sido difícil ver muchas muchas personas en el sector de servicios y, o al servicio de los otros, y no ver tantas personas latinas, por ejemplo, en posiciones de liderazgo. Entonces, es difícil. Es un procesazo. Y pues todo depende en las capacidades de--si hay o no un sistema que favorezca justamente la inclusión de estas otras personas. Pero perfectivamente sí, lo que yo veo es que, si lo pongo de manera franca, es una esclavitud moderna. Tenemos a personas que están sirviéndonos todo el tiempo con los horarios de trabajo muy difíciles. No estoy diciendo que esto suceda [Recording ends at about 42:48 minutes/ Grabación termina alrededor de 42:48 minutos] aquí necesariamente aquí en UNC, que están siendo explotados, pero lo que veo en general es que hay personas no solamente latinas sino de otros lugares del mundo que vienen acá a condiciones difíciles a trabajar. Tener tres trabajos, intentar, pues sobre todo, de sobrevivir. Y están viviendo en el sobrevivir. Entonces, para mi son minorías en condiciones angustiantes. Y como latina que--puedo ver que, aunque haya una persona que tenga papeles, que habla ingles, es difícil que tú tengas la misma categoría que es estadounidense. Como que es, para mi, esta es la idea de que, de que si eres latina, siempre vas a ser un ciudadano de segunda categoría. Es triste, pero por lo que he visto, es una manera de como la gente mira a la otra. O cuando una persona con acento latino habla en inglés, inmediatamente dice que no hablas suficientemente bien el ingles. Y ya les califica. Pero no se puede generalizar, obviamente, hay personas que son muy respetuosas, pero hablo sobre estos porque es algo también que yo digo, como minoría, pues es alarmante porque hace falta también un poco de respeto y empatía humana para--con nosotros.
KG: Entiendo y esto conecta bien con mi última pregunta, que ¿si Ud. se siente que tiene más responsabilidades en la UNC por cómo se identifica?
IC: Sí, siento que tengo una responsabilidad significativa, primero como docente. Porque soy una profesora joven, mujer, que viene de un país en un conflicto armado, y que también representa un grupo de la población estadounidense que tiene grandes dificultades económicas. Y tengo responsabilidad--intento, justamente, abrir debates sobre estos temas en mis clases. Y también siento que tengo la responsabilidad de hablar con, o no sé si es responsabilidad, sino tengo el interés también de hablar con esas personas que están en las cafeterías o trabajando a veces en Wal-Mart, que uno encuentra. Y a veces, estas personas, nadie les hablan, absolutamente nadie les habla. Y cuando uno les pregunta cómo están terminan de contarte su vida porque sienten que no tienen voz, sienten que a nadie les importa lo que les está pasando. Entonces, tengo una responsabilidad más allá de mi profesión, tal vez de humano, no sé si sea algo como vocación, abrir preguntas y intentar escuchar. Y pues, yo espero que en mis clases, pues, mis estudiantes puedan conectar un poco más con quienes son, qué es lo que están haciendo, en qué mundo están, ¿no? Aunque sea poquito, entonces, pienso que desde ahí puedo [...] un poco mi función en términos de esta visita corta aquí a los Estados Unidos.
KG: Bueno, muchas gracias por su entrevista.
IC: Gracias por tus preguntas.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Profesores
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Español
Es: Resumen
Irene Cabrera es profesora visitante de estudios latinoamericanos en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill para el año académico, 2014-2015. Cabrera nació en Bogotá, Colombia y ha vivido en los Estados Unidos durante los últimos tres años estudiando para su segundo Masters y para enseñar al nivel universitario. En esta entrevista, Cabrera describe ser asistente para un profesor como estudiante de pregrado y cómo esto la llevó a la carrera de profesora. Ella habla por un tiempo sobre los cuentos para dormir que le contaban sus padres y como ellos, y un mentor de la universidad, han formado su estilo de enseñanza y su interacción con estudiantes. Ella cree que su papel primario como profesora es hacer que sus estudiantes piensen profundamente sobre los problemas en su comunidad. Cabrera también habla sobre los problemas que percibe en el sistema universitario de Norteamérica y como se están exportando estos problemas al sistema universitario de Colombia. Finalmente, dice que la incomodidad más grande que a sentido en su tiempo en los Estados Unidos es ver a tantos latinos, un grupo con el cual se identifica, trabajando en el sector de servicios cuando hay un déficit de liderazgo latino en la universidad. Cabrera espera que su legado en UNC haya sido hacer que sus estudiantes piensen en estos asuntos de desigualdad y como quiénes son y qué hacen forma parte en estos problemas comunitarios.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Irene Cabrera por Katie Gutt, 17 Abril 2015, R-0801, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Racismo y discriminación; Educación superior; Identidad
Es: Transcripción
Katie Gutt: Mi nombre es Katie Gutt. Estoy acá con la Profesora Irene Cabrera. Hoy es el 17 de abril de mil novecient--uh--quince [error: 2015]. Estamos en Dey Hall. Hoy vamos a hablar de su experiencia como inmigrante y profesora en Estados Unidos y en Carolina del Norte. Y mi primera pregunta es ¿Dónde nació Ud.?
Irene Cabrera: Yo nací en Bogotá, Colombia.
KG: Bueno. Y ¿vivías en otra parte de EE.UU antes de venir acá?
IC: Sí. Llegue a EE.UU primero a Lexington, Kentucky por un mes y luego estuve en Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania por aproximadamente dos años. Y el ultimo año estaba en Carolina del Norte.
KG: Ok. Y ¿Por qué viniste a Carolina del Norte?
IC: Vine a Carolina del Norte como visitante académica y profesora, con el propósito de tener más experiencia laboral y acompañar a mi esposo.
KG: ¿Y qué hace su esposo acá?
IC: Mi esposo estaba terminando su doctorado aquí en la universidad.
KG: Y, ¿dónde estudió Ud. al nivel universitario, empezando con su carrera de grado...?
IC: Perfecto. Hice mi pregrado en la Universidad Externado de Colombia en Bogotá. Luego hice un estudio posgrado que en Colombia se llama especialización, por un año en geografía en la Universidad Nacional de Colombia. Y después, recibí una beca para venir a EE.UU y hacer un Masters en administración publica y estudios internacionales. Y al mismo tiempo estudios latinoamericanos. Entonces fue una doble Masters en estos dos años.
KG: Ok. Y cuál beca recibió?
IC: Recibí una beca Fulbright para venir acá hacer estudios posgrados. Y con la misma beca Fulbright logré tener un permiso para lo que llaman un "post-academic training" que te permite tener un año de experiencia, un año de enseñar. El año de experiencia es que estoy aquí como "visiting scholar".
KG: Ah entonces, la beca es para estar aquí en Carolina del Norte también.
IC: Exacto, digamos que la beca es para hacer estudios de posgrado y después la beca se extiende para que yo pueda tener una experiencia adicional a mis estudios. Esta experiencia adicional es justamente continuar con la carrera como profesora investigadora que venia aprovechando en Colombia.
KG: Y entonces ¿está estudiando en la--sí, en UNC?
IC: No. Ahora no estoy estudiando. Ya terminé en Pittsburgh. Terminé mis dos años de maestría y lo que estoy haciendo acá es simplemente investigando. Estoy trabajando en un libro, y enseñando clases.
KG: Ok. Bueno. Y ¿cómo se involucró en el sistema educativo, como carrera--profesión?
IC: Empecé--Perfecto. Desde que estaba en la universidad, siempre me gustó, digamos, la dinámica de la clase. Tuve profesores que me inspiraron a hacer una investigación, pues, más rigorosa. Encontré unos temas que me llamaron mucho más la atención. Y empecé justamente como, lo que llaman acá, como "teaching assistant", como estudiante para algunos profesores. Y también hice una tesis en mi pregrado. Y esta tesis de mi pregrado fue por así decirlo, premiada, fue sobresaliente en la universidad. Y sobre esto, pues, a los que ha hecho otra investigación, que les pareció que mi trabajo era, pues, sobresaliente. Y me invitaron a hacer un proyecto de investigación por mi cuenta, sola. Y al mismo tiempo preparar una clase, con base en esa tesis. Entonces, como muy joven, empecé básicamente a los 21 años, como profesora. Y, pues siempre me gustó la dinámica de poder dialogar y emprender y tener un espacio en donde se generan reflexiones con los estudiantes. Y, pues, también poder discutir que pasa, no, en el mundo en términos de conocernos a nosotros mismos más, y en donde estamos, bien. Y también ver que piensan los otros y como se construye un conocimiento del mundo en el salón de clase.
KG: Bueno. Y, bueno, esto va con la otra pregunta, pero ¿por qué decidió Ud. ser profesora?
IC: Bueno, decidí ser profesora porque siempre es algo también un poco personal, ¿no? Tuve la fortuna que mis padres nos contaban muchas historias para dormir que no eran las historias más comunes para los niños. Me contaban historias sobre la gente, lo que pasaba en el mundo, por ejemplo. Entonces, entre estas historias recuerdo la historia de Victor Hara, para irme a dormir, ¿no? Un músico, pues, justamente chileno que termina siendo asesinado durante la dictadura de Pinochet. Y cuando el estaba preso en el estadio, pues, justamente terminaron cortando sus manos, la lengua. Y pues, esto, de una manera es un reflejo, no, de que hay violencia en el mundo. ¿Por qué hay estas violencias? ¿Por qué hay estas injusticias? Entonces, siempre tuve grandes interrogantes sobre el por qué y por eso también me interesaba desde muy niña de entender qué pasa la justicia, qué pasa por ejemplo con el sufrimiento humano. Pues, crecí en un país con un conflicto armado desde los años 60. Bueno, una historia de violencia larga, y pues, finalmente pienso que los cambios que uno puede hacer en el mundo empiezan con cosas pequeñas. Y encontré que, justamente, el salón de clase, los estudiantes, tener como espacios de conversación sobre lo que pasa alrededor del país, sobre lo que pasa también en otros lados del mundo, pues, a uno por lo menos le genera más conciencia sobre en donde estamos. Entonces, pienso que mi labor como profesora es también hacer los preguntas para por lo menos indagar lo que está pasando con el mundo. Y si tenemos conciencia sobre lo que esta pasando en el mundo, entonces, tal vez por algún lado acá un estudiante pueda hacer algo. Fue como una decisión de que era aportar a un proceso social, no todos tienen el privilegio de estudiar, y los que estudian y los que tienen la capacidad de, en algún momento ocupar un puesto importante o un, por ejemplo, continuar apoyando simplemente a sus familias, pues por lo menos quedan con algunas ideas de reflexión sobre la vida, sobre hasta qué punto la justicia social [...] en el espacio, en el lugar donde vivimos.
KG: Entonces, decidir ser profesora es así...que--.
IC: Sí, puede ser, exacto. Pienso que mi intención es sentarme y aprender. Porque no solamente pienso que yo puedo partir conocimientos sino que el estar siempre en un espacio educativo es un proceso que se genera conocimiento mutuo, un conocimiento bilateral. No es jerárquica, sino que uno está en constante aprendizaje. Y si uno adquiere esa, digamos, esa inquietud para aprender, entonces pues, yo pienso que se puede generar procesos muy positivos. Porque si todos estamos dispuestos a aprender un poco del otro, entonces, es posible sensibilizarnos y entender más al otro y no simplemente rechazarlo o por así decirlo, ignorarlo. Y mucho que tiene que ver con procesos de violencia pasa por una indiferencia a lo que sucede en el mundo.
KG: Bueno. Y ¿hubo un momento en que se dio cuenta que había elegido la profesión perfecta para Ud.?
IC: Todavía... Bueno pues no sé si es una profesión perfecta, pero si me siento feliz cuando, cuando veo que los estudiantes se me acercan y me dicen, 'profesora, yo nunca había pensado en que esto fuera un problema" o como que se generan inquietudes. Y por lo menos cuando uno es capaz en sembrar en el corazón de una persona, o generar una inquietud intelectual por investigar más, pues yo digo bueno, es una persona que de alguna manera me demuestra a mi que vale la pena seguir adelante con cosas tan simples como plantear una pregunta de exposición o simplemente también, por ejemplo, escribir. Yo también soy escritora de artículos, y participo en libros, entonces es muy interesante como uno puede empezar a intercambiar el entendimiento que uno tiene del mundo con otras personas. Entonces, para mi, eso no tiene precia, no tiene precio. Y por eso pienso que la investigación y la enseñanza han sido perfectos para mi para justamente cumplir como--esa intención que tengo de aportar, de por lo menos generar un poco de conciencia colectiva.
KG: Ok. Y, bueno, ¿piensa en cambiar de carrera--de profesión--algún día? ¿Piensa que la academia es el mejor puesto?
IC: No solamente he trabajado como profesora. También estuve participando en la Real Académica que apoyaba el labor de Naciones Unidas para investigar temas de mercenarismo y contratistas privados. Y por eso había-- pues, aprendí un poco de--digamos el trabajo de derechos humanos, el trabajo de activistas. Y es un trabajo que merece, a mi modo de ver, todo el respeto y toda la admiración porque la verdad es que uno se enfrenta a muchos riesgos, ¿no? Entonces uno, pues estamos hablando de violaciones de derechos humanos en que el estado es implicado, entonces hay que ser muy valientes por continuar por este camino y denunciar irregularidades que se presentan. Pero, pero, pues digamos que en términos de mi carrera, tuve estos pequeños espacios que a mi modo de ver, de un activista, y pienso que es algo que también hacemos en el interno de las universidades cuando intentamos involucrar a los estudiantes con otros grupos sociales que están por fuera de la universidad. Cuando, por ejemplo, estamos generando eventos donde invitamos a gente que no necesariamente académica para que compartan sus experiencias. Entonces, esto también es activismo social. Entonces, tal vez no encuentro que la etiqueta o el nombre, o sea, es simplemente profesor porque enseña, sino al contrario. Creo que a veces uno se puede servir de puente. Y entonces, es un puente de doble vida para los que están por fuera de la academia que quieren contar un poco de lo que está pasando en el mundo y también para los estudiantes que están interesados en entender lo que está pasando en el mundo, y los profesores también. Porque, pues, estamos en un proceso, digamos, infinito de conocimiento, tu sabes. Nos [...] muy poco. Yo he aprendido mucho estando acá. Nunca me hubiera imaginado, pues, como profesora, pienso que es increíble estar en otro país y en aprender también las diferencias, no, en los sistemas educativos de mi país de origen y en Estados Unidos.
KG: Sí, me imagino. Y, ¿tiene Ud. un maestro para su carrera o para su enseñanza?
IC: Sí, tengo la suerte de tener mi--yo le molesto que es mi sensei, mi tutor. Justamente el fue quien me guió por--en mi tiempo de pregrado. Él es un profesor también del Externado, y pues su experiencia de vida, su experiencia de docente, también es iluminadora para mi proceso. Porque es una persona que es práctica, entregada, también a que--pues, la gente comprenda un poco el mundo que tenga, también, un sentido critico de como se entienda la realidad. Entonces, pues, pienso que es bueno tener esos, no sé si la palabra sea modelos, pero un amigo que te permite justamente discutir temas difíciles porque el mundo esta lleno de dificultades y a veces es complicado contar con la persona en la cual confías, que te sirve para guiar un poco tu proceso profesional, tu proceso ético, tu proceso también, humano.
KG: Bueno. Entiendo. Y ¿ cómo es diferente la universidad en Carolina del Norte y las universidades dónde estudió en Colombia?
IC: Bueno, pienso que el sistema educativo de Colombia también esta en un proceso de imitación de lo que sucede aquí. Porque, por ejemplo, las universidades en Colombia cada vez más intentan, por ejemplo, continuar con esos mecanismos, estas certificaciones que se han empleado aquí en EE.UU, donde pues, los profesores tienen que tener necesariamente un PhD. Digamos, las calificaciones de los estudiantes tienen que ser cada vez más regulares, cada vez más estandarizados. Entonces, pienso que hay una influencia muy grande dentro de la formularizacion educativa de aquí en los Estados Unidos que también se refleja en Colombia. Y, esto tiene elementos positivos y--tiene implicaciones positivas y negativas. Positivas, porque obligar a las universidades a organizarse, a tener personas que están interesadas en avanzar estos estudios y también a tener una referencia de calificación. Por ejemplo, que se supone que te permite comparar de forma con mayor calidad entre los estudiantes. Pero esto también tiene unas implicaciones negativas porque en Colombia tenemos excelentes maestros que llevan toda una vida enseñando y nunca han tenido un doctorado y son rechazados hoy en día en las universidades porque no tienen un doctorado. Entonces, esto también se convierte, como, en un sistema de exclusión de aquellos que no cuentan con las acreditaciones, con un titulo de doctorado. Y ojala que sea un doctorado de una universidad, lo que llaman 'del norte', entonces, europeo o estadounidense. Y también en términos de los estudiantes es muy problemático, a mi modo de ver, el hecho de que, pues, casi todos están enfocados en la nota. Algo que me sorprende mucho, que me siento hoy que me preocupa en EE.UU, es que se siente mucho la competencia. Es un sistema muy dedicado a la competencia, donde tenemos los estudiantes que la palabra como--creo que lo que se usa es 'over achievers'--necesitan que todo sea perfecto, que todo sea muy bien. Pero, entonces, la pregunta es ¿es suficiente tener un [...] perfecto? Con esto no puede tener un proceso educativo donde no es [...] la nota, sino que el proceso de repensar cual es su lugar en el mundo, desde cualquier carrera en que está. Cual puede ser realmente como su trabajo y obviamente es hacer parte de los retos modernos, ¿no? Cómo crear sistemas educativos propios que se ajustan a las realidades de cada país. Pero yo pienso que algo también que es diferente es, de estar aquí en Estados Unidos, es que, por ejemplo, hay un montón de recursos. Las bibliotecas son increíbles. No tengo manera de agradecer la oportunidad de acceder a tanto material visual, escrito, que pues se encuentra disponible. Pues, cuando uno compara eso con la posibilidad de tener encuentros con otros profesores, pues esto es cada vez más difícil porque hay una carrera constantes de donde los profesores tienen que escribir. Es como 'publish or perish' (se ríe). Publica o fallece. Entonces, los profesores están en un corre, corre, en una carrera que es increíble. Entonces, yo acá, es difícil encontrar, por ejemplo, ese tiempo de sentarte a almorzar y alojar como sí he tenido en Colombia. Estos tiempos también hacen parte de, a mi modo de ver, de las diferencias culturales en términos de tiempo. Pero, pero, bueno. Hace parte también de los ajustes. Pero por encima un poco es, poco tiempo para responder. Pero quisiera partir de estas presiones en breve.
KG: Sí, no, esto es muy interesante. Y lo de la perfección de los estudiantes--que quieren lograr esta perfección--¿cree que esto está llegando a Colombia todavía, o no, los estudiantes no se preocupan tanto por la nota o no?
IC: Pues, lo que pasa es que cuando uno tiene, por ejemplo, estudiantes aquí, la verdad hemos aprendido... Una vez un estudiante que acaba de terminar como a sus 25 años su doctorado. Pero nunca había salido de la universidad, nunca había viajado, no sabía que hacer con su vida. No sabía realmente donde quería trabajar, qué quería hacer, o cuales eran los temas que realmente le gustaban. Entonces el sistema te obliga a estudiar, a mantenerte ocupado, la educación, a mi modo de ver, es una distracción de lo que suceda en el mundo. Estas concentrado en estudiar y continuar en, tienes que sacar los títulos más altos, que sabes es tener su doctorado. Pero, en qué momento uno se toma el momento o un espacio para comprender donde esta, ¿cuales son los problemas aquí en la esquina? Entonces, hay segregación residencial aquí en Chapel Hill, entonces la gente esta metida en la biblioteca y esta en su habitación estudiando, pero se nos olvide esta conexión con la realidad! Entonces, esto sucede un poco en Colombia. La absolución no es todo el mundo a tener un doctorado, no creo esto sea simplemente el comino. Y pues, parte de, del problema que yo veo con la excesiva presión que hay aquí en términos educativos es que también se convierten en procesos dolorosos aquí. Hay personas que terminan frustrados porque no obtienen, digamos, las notas más altas, en cuando--en realidad hay procesos de aprendizaje muy diferentes. Y cada vez más, bueno, cuando hay libertades acá [...] jugar con diferentes metodologías de aprendizaje. Pero si hay muchas veces estudiantes que se sienten frustrados durante su carrera porque tienen unas exigencias, digamos, muy muy altas que no responden a los contextos en la realidad. Uno no puede pedir a un estudiante que ha tenido escasos recursos, dificultades para acceder a sus libros, o dificultades inclusive para escribir, o leer. Por ejemplo, si estás tomando un curso en otro idioma que se desempeña de igual manera a una persona que estudia toda su vida en un colegio bilingüe, y que habla perfecto los dos idiomas, ahí hay los contextos sociales que se dibujan en el momento de calificar. Y que--es difícil, como, poder, como profesor--resolver esto. Que tenemos estudiantes que vienen de contextos muy diferentes.
KG: Entonces, ¿esto se ve también en Colombia que hay diferentes niveles de recursos?
IC: Claro, o sea, y las oportunidades que tiene cada estudiante son muy distintas. Y obviamente el porcentaje de la población que pueda acceder a educación universitaria es, digamos, es muy bajo. Y, lo cierto es que a uno si--las personas que llegan a la educación universitaria, pues, también llegan con niveles muy diferentes. Entonces, no es que la calidad educativa de la educación, del colegio, que va a definir a uno. Porque yo pienso que cada persona tiene la posibilidad de su propio interés y su propio esfuerzo. No? Como, de entrar en un procesos educativo que termine por llevándolo a espacios personales y profesionales muy interesantes. Pero sí, pienso que como sistema educativo, no hay una verdadera conciencia sobre la universidad de los contextos, de los cuales llegan estos estudiantes. Y que, también, el propio contenido de los que enseñamos es tan estandarizado, está en los libros. Por ejemplo en Colombia, no sé, hay las comunidades indígenas que ahora hacen parte de los procesos universitarios y estas comunidades tienen que verse obligados a mandar sus estudiantes, o a sus jóvenes, por ejemplo, a ciudades lejanas porque es difícil validar la educación propia, la educación indígena como algo formado, como la [...]. Entonces esto es, digamos, otra parte del desconocimiento, de otras formas educativas porque estamos muy concentrados en lo que debe ser, es terminar en la universidad y tener un PhD, pero como si esto fuera la única manera de llegar a ser alguien, ¿no?
KG: Bueno. Y, cuénteme de su trabajo en la UNC como las clases que enseña y la investigación que hace.
IC: Bueno, tuve una experiencia muy interesante el semestre pasado enseñando una clase sobre violencia y movimientos sociales en América Latina. Y, pues, parece que, bueno, es parte de las preocupaciones. Qué pasa en términos de la violencia. Por qué tenemos, por ejemplo, genocidios. Por qué tenemos asesinatos masivos. Y pienso que estar en un proceso de discusión con los estudiantes es muy enriquecedor en términos de saber cuales son sus percepciones, cuales son sus lecturas. Entonces es bonito tener la oportunidad de compartir con diferentes estudiantes literatura internacional muy variada que le permite a uno tener, pues, unas lecturas teóricas, pero también contrastar esto con, digamos, evidencia más real. Entonces, a lo que voy con esto es que el ejercicio con estas clases no solamente es hacer una revisión de la literatura disponible sobre el tema, sino también aterrizarlo a casos concretos que los estudiantes se pueden conectar con la realidad de los países--entonces, que ha pasado en realidad. Entonces, buenos, este curso sobre violencia y movimientos sociales también fue un espacio interesante para poder invitar a personas que han participado directamente en diferentes movimientos sociales en América Latina. Y que los estudiantes pudieran establecer preguntas o diálogos con ellos y ellas. Pues, entonces, también cambia la manera de aprendizar--del aprendizaje--porque no es solamente leer texto y algo teórico, sino también entrar en contacto con una persona que han estado ahí, por ejemplo, se ha visto amenazado por la violencia propio, o esté en un proceso de resistencia. Por ejemplo, en el caso de los Mapuches en Chile, entonces que los estudiantes tengan la oportunidad de establecer preguntas y conocer de manera directa, a través de las historias, que es lo que está sucediendo en estos territorios. Esto pienso que también le da un contexto en, digamos, mucho más humano a la clase. Y pues, en este semestre he podido avanzar también más en, pues, en una investigación que llevo haciendo yo muchos años que tiene que ver con la revolución, del conflicto armado en Colombia, y en particular en las zonas de frontera. Y pues, estoy básicamente construyendo mapas. Acá en la universidad tiene un excelente software de RPG, que es un sistema de información geográfica que me permite comparar la presencia de actores armados--en el contexto colombiano--actores armados que adelantan, por ejemplos, acciones o combates o ataques con, por ejemplo, la presencia de cultivos ilícitos. Entonces, es un proyecto sobre estos bases de datos que me he dedicado escribir. Pues, estar aquí en la universidad ha sido lindo porque tienen espacios muy agradables para hacerlo. Disfruto mucho la naturaleza para afuera. Digamos, sentarme por ejemplo, en mi casa o en la universidad a trabajar sobre ello. Y pues, normalmente los recursos de la biblioteca han sido cruciales para poder avanzar en esta investigación. Y, a parte, digamos, en este semestre, de avanzar en este proyecto, este libro, pues estoy dictando una clase sobre cultura en América Latina. Y esa es una clase que dicto en español para estudiantes que tienen diferentes niveles de castellano. Pero, también ha sido muy interesante porque no solamente me he centrado en American Latina, para que ellos entiendan en que consistan las visiones culturales, las visiones del mundo de estas poblaciones en el cono sur o en el caribe, sino que también espero que ellos comparen estos procesos y conflictos culturales con lo que sucede aquí en EE.UU. Entonces, cuando tenemos casos, por ejemplo, como, casos, por ejemplo, de abusos policiales, como lo que ha sucedido aquí en Carolina del Norte. Pues, hay que entender que los problemas con el racismo no solamente están limitados a lo que muchos llaman los países subdesarrollados, sino que también esta aquí. Está aquí en el asesinato, a mi modo de ver, de tantos jóvenes afro-americanos, pero también hay bastante prejuicio si tenemos en cuenta el caso de los estudiantes musulmanes que se asesinaron aquí en los alrededores de UNC. Entonces es importante también ellos puedan conectar no solamente no que sucede en American Latina, sino que también tengan en cuenta donde están parados, básicamente.
KG: Bueno. Y, ¿cómo estuvo su primer día en la UNC?
IC: Bueno. Algo muy curioso es que no, no tenía como, como tanto, como tantos nervios, por así decirlo, de llegar a un lugar nuevo, porque antes yo estaba en Pittsburgh. Y pues, Pittsburgh es una ciudad donde hay demasiada nubes en el invierno, y pues, la gente se pone un poco introvertida por el frio. Entonces, llegar aquí en agosto del 2014, cuando hay tanto azul, cuando hay el Carolina blue--o el blue Carolina, no sé--. Es, pues, un ambiente que te da la bienvenida, ¿no? Y el verde, esto es positivo. Y, aquí he encontrado personas maravillosas en diferentes departamentos que no solamente a mi, pero también a esposo, nos han apoyado demasiado. Y pienso que no es solamente la institución, con las reglas, que hace el proceso fácil, sino encontrar la calidad humana. Y esa calidad humana he encontrado, no sé hasta que punto pueda mencionar nombres propios, pero, pero en realidad han existido personas en espacios administrativos y también profesores que han sido fundamentales que también nos han dado una mano para poder llegar aquí--un aterrizado más suave--. Siempre cambiar de lugar implica no solamente viajar, sino que es un viaje adentro, uno tiene que saber donde esta. Pues, ese primer día--no sé--es que mi primera impresión fue que es una universidad muy blanca. Debo decirlo, en comparación con la universidad donde estaba en Pittsburgh. Entonces, sí, si estamos hablando de primeras impresiones, me parece que UNC es todavía muy blanca.
KG: Ok. Y, bueno, mi última pregunta sobre su profesión sería ¿podría describirme las relaciones que tiene con sus estudiantes?
IC: Bueno, perfecto. Pienso que algo muy común dentro de los salones de clase es justamente es la distancia, la rigidez que tienen los profesores, respecto a sus alumnos. Como si los profesores fueran quienes tiene conocimiento completo y quienes tienen un nivel inalcanzable, como si fueran los reyes del salón de clase. Y yo--mi filosofía de educación es muy diferente porque yo pienso que hay que estar al nivel de los estudiantes siempre. Y esto es conectarse con quienes son, conectarse con cuales son--sus prioridades--cuáles son sus dificultades. Entonces, desde que sea posible, siempre he intentado primero conocer un poco más a mis estudiantes. No simplemente llegar y ponerles un syllabus, sino intentar comprender quiénes son, qué les guste. No todos los estudiantes a veces les gusta las mismas, o se sienten incomodos, o sienten que funcionen bien con un sistema de calificación. Entonces si puedo ajustar los sistemas de calificación, o las metodologías de los ejercicios, lo que prefieren los estudiantes, pues, esto intento usarlo. Y así mismo darle la libertad que Uds. puedan profundizar lo que realmente les interesen. Porque a veces muchos estudiantes terminan viendo temas que no tienen absolutamente nada que ver con sus prioridades. Pues, yo pienso que es perder el tiempo, un poco. Pero, pues, la relación con los estudiante, pienso que debe basarse primero en respeto mutuo. Y pienso uno está en espacios de clase no para solamente dar conocimiento sino que para construir, de una manera conjunta, el conocimiento.
KG: Bueno. Y ahora mis preguntas cambian un poco en enfoque a la identidad. Entonces, quiero primero preguntarle, ¿como se identifica Ud.? ¿Y que significa esto para Ud.?
IC: Bueno. Son preguntas muy difíciles porque uno puede decir que todo es una construcción social, ¿no? Eso es, como una primera manera de responderlo. Pero, pero puedo decir, bueno, soy mujer. Sí. Hay gente que dice que uno no debe ni siquiera hablar del genero. Que no da relevancia, pero soy mujer y me siento orgullosa en mis cualidades femeninas. Disfruto mi feminidad. También me siento, tengo sentido de ser colombiana. De descendencia campesina. Mis abuelos son campesinos. Y, cuando siempre--cuando voy al medico y tengo que llenar encuestas, siempre está esta casilla de 'qué es' latino, Hispanic... Y la verdad siempre la dejo en blanco porque me parece que son etiquetas de contexto, ¿no? No sé hará acá cuando tiene que votar, muchas veces, o hay estos censos pero qué pasa con estas personas que tienen, tenemos personas, por ejemplo, biraciales. Papá japonés, mamá--no sé--coreana, entonces, pues ¿quién eres tú? Entonces es una pregunta muy personal y pues, estas implicaciones en términos de latino, Hispanic, African American, o Amerindian no son suficientes. Y, al contrario, tienen un contenido político en termino de exclusiones, estos sistemas de dominación bastante marcados. Y sistemas de dominación en términos de que te obligan identificarte, no, y que también te obligan a ti a clasificarte. Pero, pues, si tú me preguntas quién soy, también debo decir que soy una mujer que tiene orígenes indígenas y me identifico también en algún punto con mis raíces africanas. Y, pues, obviamente como en el proceso de estar acá, también me he sentido que efectivamente hay un sentido de pertenencia a Colombia, colombiana. Siento que hay, no siento que Colombia sea un estado uni-nacional, una sola nación. Siento que hay múltiples naciones, hay múltiples mundos en Colombia. Pero me siento identificada con estos múltiples mundos. Hago parte de estos múltiples mundos que están allí. Es decir, solo Colombia, sino lo [...].
KG: Ok. Bueno, ¿se considera una minoría en su profesión? ¿Y por qué? Por cómo se identifica o por otra razón.
IC: Hay muy pocos profesores latinos, lo que llaman acá latinos, y mujeres. Y eso es un elemento también de alarma, no, para tener en cuenta. ¿Cuántos profesores son mujeres y son latinas y están enseñando un curso que realmente quieran? Y digo esto porque hay muchas personas que vienen de Latinoamérica de trabajar aquí a EE.UU y no tienen otra opción que enseñar español. Porque el mercado así les dicta. Yo tuve la oportunidad en la universidad de haber dictado, de estar dictando dos cursos, que son de mi entera, de mi entero interese. Que son de mi grado. Pero lo que veo es que el número, por ejemplo, de mujeres que están en esa misma--o en una posición--por ejemplo, lo que llaman aquí, un tenure track, no lo veo, mi percepción es que no tienen el mismo espacio. Entonces, tal vez no sé si me quieres preguntar algo más específico de esa pregunta general...
KG: No, ¿si esa es una percepción de lo que pasa en UNC o en la profesión en EE.UU?
IC: Sí, bueno. Es que, tal vez como yo te decía hay una falta de dialogo con otros profesores. Entonces, desde esta falta de dialogo con otros profesores, es difícil conocer cual es la realidad de otras personas, otras profesoras por ejemplo, que están en Latinoamérica. Lo que yo puedo ver es, no solamente en UNC sino que en todo EE.UU, lo que he visto en términos de profesoras latinas es para ellas es muy difícil terminar dictando cursos que no sean de español. Entonces, porque, de una manera, la mayoría de las universidades tienen una demanda muy amplia por profesores que estén dispuestos a enseñar español y pagan bien. Pero, pues, esto es problemático. Pero lo que sí pienso es que, algo que me gustaría compartir es que yo intento hablar mucho con las personas de servicio que están aquí en UNC en las cafeterías. Y eso es algo difícil porque te das cuenta que hay grandes dificultades para la población latina, no solamente mujeres sino también hombres, y son minorías que son, a mi modo de ver, maltratado muchas veces porque no hablan el idioma, aunque llevan muchísimos años acá no les van a dar un trabajo diferente que no sea limpiar un baño o hacer el [...] o llevar la basura. Entonces para mi ha sido difícil ver muchas muchas personas en el sector de servicios y, o al servicio de los otros, y no ver tantas personas latinas, por ejemplo, en posiciones de liderazgo. Entonces, es difícil. Es un procesazo. Y pues todo depende en las capacidades de--si hay o no un sistema que favorezca justamente la inclusión de estas otras personas. Pero perfectivamente sí, lo que yo veo es que, si lo pongo de manera franca, es una esclavitud moderna. Tenemos a personas que están sirviéndonos todo el tiempo con los horarios de trabajo muy difíciles. No estoy diciendo que esto suceda [Recording ends at about 42:48 minutes/ Grabación termina alrededor de 42:48 minutos] aquí necesariamente aquí en UNC, que están siendo explotados, pero lo que veo en general es que hay personas no solamente latinas sino de otros lugares del mundo que vienen acá a condiciones difíciles a trabajar. Tener tres trabajos, intentar, pues sobre todo, de sobrevivir. Y están viviendo en el sobrevivir. Entonces, para mi son minorías en condiciones angustiantes. Y como latina que--puedo ver que, aunque haya una persona que tenga papeles, que habla ingles, es difícil que tú tengas la misma categoría que es estadounidense. Como que es, para mi, esta es la idea de que, de que si eres latina, siempre vas a ser un ciudadano de segunda categoría. Es triste, pero por lo que he visto, es una manera de como la gente mira a la otra. O cuando una persona con acento latino habla en inglés, inmediatamente dice que no hablas suficientemente bien el ingles. Y ya les califica. Pero no se puede generalizar, obviamente, hay personas que son muy respetuosas, pero hablo sobre estos porque es algo también que yo digo, como minoría, pues es alarmante porque hace falta también un poco de respeto y empatía humana para--con nosotros.
KG: Entiendo y esto conecta bien con mi última pregunta, que ¿si Ud. se siente que tiene más responsabilidades en la UNC por cómo se identifica?
IC: Sí, siento que tengo una responsabilidad significativa, primero como docente. Porque soy una profesora joven, mujer, que viene de un país en un conflicto armado, y que también representa un grupo de la población estadounidense que tiene grandes dificultades económicas. Y tengo responsabilidad--intento, justamente, abrir debates sobre estos temas en mis clases. Y también siento que tengo la responsabilidad de hablar con, o no sé si es responsabilidad, sino tengo el interés también de hablar con esas personas que están en las cafeterías o trabajando a veces en Wal-Mart, que uno encuentra. Y a veces, estas personas, nadie les hablan, absolutamente nadie les habla. Y cuando uno les pregunta cómo están terminan de contarte su vida porque sienten que no tienen voz, sienten que a nadie les importa lo que les está pasando. Entonces, tengo una responsabilidad más allá de mi profesión, tal vez de humano, no sé si sea algo como vocación, abrir preguntas y intentar escuchar. Y pues, yo espero que en mis clases, pues, mis estudiantes puedan conectar un poco más con quienes son, qué es lo que están haciendo, en qué mundo están, ¿no? Aunque sea poquito, entonces, pienso que desde ahí puedo [...] un poco mi función en términos de esta visita corta aquí a los Estados Unidos.
KG: Bueno, muchas gracias por su entrevista.
IC: Gracias por tus preguntas.
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-0801 -- Cabrera, Irene.
Description
An account of the resource
Irene Cabrera is a visiting professor of Latin American studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill for the 2014-2015 academic year. Cabrera was born in Bogotá, Colombia and has lived in the United States for the past three years to study for her second Masters and to teach at the university level. In this interview, Cabrera describes becoming a teaching assistant as an undergraduate and how this led to a career as a professor. She talks at length about her parents’ bedtime stories and how they, along with a faculty mentor, have modeled her style of teaching and interacting with students. She believes that her primary role as a professor is to make her students think deeply about the issues in their community. Cabrera also talks about the problems she sees in the American university system and how those problems are being exported to the university system in Colombia. Finally, Cabrera states that the biggest discomfort she felt during her time in the U.S. was seeing so many Latinos, a group she identifies with, working in the service sector while there is a deficit in Latino leadership at the university. She hopes that the legacy she leaves at UNC is having her students think about these issues of inequality and how who they are and what they do factor into these community issues.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
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17 April 2015
Format
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R0801_Audio.mp3
Publisher
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/26857">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/b3b90e6cdbf36bb567e73a3816a43d9c.mp3
a9c447abcd7a63d38ea24ad4286d9522
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/91f6229ee59aa2a4bd8b6288667aa800.pdf
98afb61691c87137eec2f0788a38379d
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0704
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
17 April 2014
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Halperín, Laura.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Professors
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1974
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Argentina
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Chapel Hill -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-63.616671999999994 -38.416097),1974,1;POINT(-79.05584450000003 35.9131996),2006,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Smith, Janell.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Laura Halperin is an assistant professor of English and comparative literature at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, where she researches contemporary Latina/o literatures and cultures. She is currently working on a book project, which focuses on representations of harm in late twentieth century Latina novels and memoirs. Her other research interests include Latinas/os and education, access to education, debates surrounding English-Only policies and bilingual or multilingual education, and censorship of Latina/o texts in school libraries and classrooms. Professor Halperin who was hired as a professor at UNC after receiving a diversity fellowship, discusses her areas of study, as well as her personal experience as a Latina in higher education. Halperin explains how fortunate she has been to face relatively little adversity as a result of her ethnicity as a Latina minority in higher education institutions. She attributes some of her experience to her fairer skin, as she is a lighter skin Argentinian. This interview emphasizes the ways in which education and access to job opportunities play an important role in migrants’ lives, and also explores issues of race and diversity.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Laura Halperin by Janell Smith, 17 April 2014, R-0704, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/20991
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Identity; Racism and discrimination; Integration and segregation
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Janell Smith: Okay, this is Janell Smith in Hannah Gill’s global 382 class. I am here today, April 17, a Thursday of 2014, with Professor Laura Halperin. We are in Greenlaw building - Greenlaw Hall - room 403 at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. It’s about 12:26 in the afternoon and we are going to start our interview right now. So thank you, Professor Halperin, for speaking with me and taking time out of your schedule to talk with me. I kind of just want to start the interview with, “How did you get to UNC?” How did you get to professorhood?
Laura Halperin: Okay. Well, I came here straight from graduate school. I did my graduate work at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor. I started here on a post-doc. I received the Carolina Post-doctoral Fellowship for Faculty Diversity, which is a two year post-doctoral program and was fortunate enough to have that turn into a tenure-track position.
JS: Can you explain a little bit what that fellow is about?
LH: Yes, absolutely. It’s an amazing post-doctoral program similar to - for instance, in the University of California system, there’s a Carolina - or not Carolina, I’m sorry - UC president’s post-doctoral fellowship. What these fellowships are, are opportunities once people finish their PhDs. They are - here at Carolina it’s a two year, post-doctoral fellowship. It is across the university. So each year, different people apply for post-doctoral fellowships in different departments. It is through the Vice Chancellor’s office for Research and Economic Development. It is designed to promote diversity at the University, in terms of faculty. So, ideally, the way the program is envisioned is for people to start their post-doctoral fellowship with the hope that it will eventually turn into a tenured-track position. It’s not always guaranteed. It varies from one department to another. But, the hope is that, eventually, it will lead to a departmental position down the road. Right now the program has been reconfigured slightly different. The program now, as it exists, is smaller - quite a bit smaller than it was when I was a fellow. When I was a fellow there were ten post-docs across the span of two cohorts. Since it was a two-year program, sometimes there were four post-docs in my cohort, six in a previous. But sometimes that varied, those numbers vary. Now, from what I understand, that number has been cut from ten to five I believe, substantially because of funding, I think, questions. The way the post-doctoral program works is people apply. They indicate the departments where they would like to be housed. They can apply to more than one department. Then, what the post-doctoral program does is it sorts through all of the different application they receives. Then they send off all of the applications to the respective departments where the post-docs indicated that they would like to be housed. Each department then reads through all of the applications that they get and based on those applications can nominate up to two individuals, saying we would like to have this person and or this person, but no more than two. What the department really needs to articulate there is why is there a need to have someone who works in that particular field of study: If there’s a gap that can be filled that isn’t really currently being met or if there’s an area where a department wants to see more faculty working in a particular area of study. Then, each department puts forth one or two names and then that goes back to the post-doctoral program. Then there’s a selection committee there compiled of different people from across the University. Then they sort through all of the different departments that have put forth names and then determine who gets the post-docs. Usually, there are a few hundred applicants and then for a certain number of positions. The goal really is not only to increase diversity in terms of the racial and ethnic composition of the faculty, but ideally, I think also, folks who work in areas of study that are underserved and underrepresented in order to increase that type of diversity at the University so that it’s diversity in multiple arenas. Originally, the post-doc program was developed primarily for African American scholars and that has expanded over time to also include members of other racial and ethnic groups.
JS: I wonder if soon it’ll change for gender or sexual orientation or things of that nature.
LH: Yeah. I think there definitely are certain departs that are primarily male or sexual orientation, ability - I think there are different ways of conceiving the term diversity.
JS: And so, you said that departments had to explain why there’s a need.
LH: The department chair will write a letter.
JS: And so, in your case, what do you think the need was?
LH: We have the program in Latino Studies, which is housed in the English department. At the time when I applied to the post-doctoral program, the only faculty member in this department who worked in Latino Studies is the director of the program, Maria de Guzman. This is a program that - the Latino Studies, here at UNC, is the first Latino Studies program in the Southeast. North Carolina’s a state with the fastest growing Latino population. When you put those things together, I think there definitely was a need for more people working in this area.
JS: And how has it been working for the English department?
LH: It’s been great. It’s been wonderful. Yeah, absolutely wonderful. Folks here are really supportive and welcoming. I feel like, in general, it’s a really collegial environment so I’m incredibly fortunate.
JS: Did you ever face any hardships? Maybe that’s too strong of a word, but, difficulties? Maybe not when you first started the position, but, maybe, throughout the fellowship or even your post-doctorate degree? Did you face any hardships on account of being a Latina and being a minority in higher education?
LH: I will say for the most part, I’ve been incredibly fortunate and certainly here, at UNC and the English department, I’ve been incredibly fortunate. But, I do think that, and throughout my graduate career also, I will say though, that I know that especially speaking with friends who work at other universities and going to conferences where I am in touch with faculty who work at different universities, that’s not the case everywhere. I think part of that has to do with different university climates. But also, part of that has to do with the fact that I’m a light-skinned Latina, who’s Argentina American. If I were a darker skinned Latina from Mexico or from the Dominican Republic or something along those lines, would my experience be different? Most likely, yeah. I think that race makes a difference. Race makes a difference - race in terms of the visible phenotype - makes a big difference if we’re looking at race in that way, obviously we realize race as a construction. But, I think that makes a big difference. Now, are the experiences that faculty of color, regardless of what they look like, different? Yes. So I think it comes from, maybe, feeling obliged to and asked to and want to do more service work than other faculty maybe want to do. I think that in part has to do with different student organizations on campus - different Latino student organizations on campus - who have come and asked me to speak to their organizations. I love doing that. It’s an amazing opportunity, but, definitely, that’s a part of my job that other members of this faculty might not have. I think that’s a common trend across universities throughout the country in terms of service, in terms of the number of committees that people are asked to be on. Those are trends that we see across universities throughout the country. Unfortunately, the way the university systems work throughout the country is that for professors it’s really a ‘publish or perish’ model. I think that this department, in particular, has been really wonderful in recognizing that service is also incredibly important. That’s not the case of all departments and that’s not the case in a lot of places throughout the country, where service is undervalued and, yet, expected. If faculty members are being asked to do more service - if faculty of color are being asked to do more service than other faculty - then there’s less time to publish. And service doesn’t necessarily come in visible ways. If faculty are meeting with students on a more regular basis that’s time away from publishing. I think that something needs to be addressed, in terms of what work gets rewarded. I think that’s a national issue that merits attention.
JS: Do you feel like this University does a good job of recognizing?
LH: I hope so. (Laughs) I’m not up for tenure yet, so hopefully. Knock on wood. I do think this also varies from one department to the other. Every department has its own culture and I think, in general, my experience has been that people in this department really appreciate it when people show a vested commitment to the university in some way. I would like to think that this department is attuned to it in ways that make me feel lucky to be part of this department.
JS: What made you want to pursue teaching and being a professor?
LH: Okay. I didn’t know what I wanted to do right after college. I thought I wanted to do something totally different actually. I thought I wanted to go to law school. (Laughs). Is that what you’re thinking? Okay. (More laughter). I thought I wanted to go to law school and either practice international law or civil rights law or something where I was doing my part to make this world a better place. But, I knew I wanted to teach at some point in my life. While I was in college, there was one year when I volunteered at a restraining office helping survivors of intimate partner violence file restraining orders against their batterers. That was part of a public policy course that I took that there was a major service component and then I continued doing that service throughout the year, which I feel like gave me a little insight into how the legal system works. There wasn’t a pre-law thing where I went to school, but I took classes that were related to law to get a sense of what that experience would be like. And then I also volunteered one summer at a non-profit organization outside of D.C., helping migrants file for political asylum. What I realized during that - and also acting as a translator and interpreting documents, translating documents - as valuable as both of those experiences were, I felt…depressed isn’t quite the right word, but I felt like no matter how hard I tried or no matter what I did or what I saw the people, who actually had law degrees, were doing, I felt like every step forward almost felt like one step forward, two step backwards, instead of two step forwards, one step backwards. Most of the migrants whose claims I helped filed, I was told that those were most likely going to be dismissed as frivolous claims and those migrants were going to be sent back to their home countries even though they lived in fear for their lives if they were to return because they were political refugees. And so, that was incredibly frustrating to feel like, well, what type of justice is there in that. Same type of situation when working at the restraining office, when I realized that the majority of predominantly women, who came into the office, were most likely to resend their restraining orders and go back to living in situations where they were being abused on a regular basis. That’s not to minimize the work I felt like I was doing, but it felt like I wasn’t making the difference I wanted to make. I still was convinced that maybe I could do that, so I decided to apply for teaching positions right after college, thinking I would teach for a year or two after college and then go to law school. (Laughs) And we can talk more about this later because it sounds like we have some similarities here. So I did. I got a job teaching fourth through sixth grade and in a month into teaching, I realized that in the classroom I was making the type of difference I wanted to make and I could see it in a way that I couldn’t see, at least not tangibly so, in my experiences working in something related to the legal profession. I realized law was not for me because I needed to be able to see the difference. But then I wasn’t sure. I taught for three years while trying to figure out what I wanted to do. I taught sixth grade English and fourth, fifth and sixth grade Spanish. Then I realized that I wanted to go to graduate school and kind of combine some of my favorite components from teaching grade school. So, there was one unit that we taught in sixth grade English on Mildred Taylor’s, “Roll of Thunder Hear my Cry.” It’s a great book and we combined that unit. What we did was we included a little bit of historical background in that unit. With the mix of history and literature and talking about questions of social justice in relation to literature - that combined with teaching Spanish and teaching about culture, as well as language but teaching culture, too, and different cultures that speak Spanish; and also serving as one of the faculty mentors to a middle school student, completely voluntary middles school student group called “United, Unite Now in Tolerance and Equality,” that was designed to get students to just increase awareness about issues affecting people of color. Combining all three of those aspects of the job that really were my favorite parts of the job, I thought, “Alright, I want to go to grad school and I really want to focus on race, gender, ethnicity and literature in some capacity or another.” It was really huge and broad and amorphous at the time.
Somehow, despite how huge that was, I got in grad school. My first semester in grad school I realized I wanted to focus on Latino literature. That’s kind of the journey I took to get there.
JS: Were you ever impacted by the migration history of your family, in terms of in school, integrating or assimilating to American culture?
LH: I think so, although not in the ways we’ve read about in class. My experience was very different and again I think in part that has to do with the fact that I’m very light skinned; with the fact that we moved to the U.S. when I was two. Even now when people meet me they see me and they hear me speak, and they’re like, “But you don’t have an accent.” And I want to say, “Well, yes I do. We all have accents.” What they’re meaning is that you don’t have an accent that sounds different and you don’t look different and so those are racialized assumptions that they have when they’re asking questions like that. I didn’t have those experiences and I also didn’t live in a community with a huge number of Latinos and I didn’t go to school with a lot of Latinos. I did go to Argentine school every Saturday from first grade through sixth grade, which made my experience different. My difference is - where I felt it was in the fact that I went to school six days a week, instead of five, because when we moved to the states my parents thought we were only going to be here for a few years. The idea was we were going to move back to Argentina, so they sent me and my sister to Argentine schools on Saturday in order to keep up with language and history.The curriculum at the school was designed so that in one day you would cover what you would be covered in a week in school in Argentina so that if you went back you wouldn’t have to repeat a year.
JS: Where was this?
LH: This was outside of the D.C. area. In that sense my experience was different because my friends would have slumber parties or they would wake up and do sporting events or watch Saturday morning cartoons or something like that and I missed out on all of that growing up. At the time I bitterly complained, now I’m incredibly grateful, but at the time I complained. So, in that environment I was surrounded with a lot of Argentinians or Argentinian Americans, but there weren’t Latinos from different cultural backgrounds. So that made my experience different from the peers with whom I went to school five days a week. But, I guess there were other ways in which I think my experience was different. Apparently, I don’t remember this because I was so little, but my mom says when I started kindergarten or pre-k or something like that I just kept saying no one understands me. Of course I don’t remember that because I was so young, but I felt like no one understood me. Part of it was related to my name. I would introduce myself and my parents - my whole family - called me Louda, and I would introuduce myself and encounter a wall. My peers would say, “What? I can’t say that.” Then, I don’t remember if I just eventually said okay you can call me Laura or if that name was imposed on me and I just kind of adopted it while growing up. Now I assert myself as Louda, but at time it was this dual type identity where I was Laura at school or with my classmates, Monday through Friday, but I was Louda at home and Louda on Saturdays in Argentine schools and with the friends I had there. So that was a difference. Then there were just some other differences in terms of kids at school and at grade school bringing cupcakes for their birthdays. That’s not really something you do in Argentina and we didn’t bake in my household. So we would bring merengues with dulce leche, I think one year. Then we started bring empanadas. There was a way in which - it was interesting because my peers loved empanadas - but it marked me as different in a way, that I realize later, years later now that I have the analytical tools, there was a way in which I was exoctized for that. Peers would say that they wanted to be in my class, but really just because they wanted to have empanadas on my birthday, but still marking me as different. Then I think, and I don’t know if this has to do with me being a Latina or not, or just the different ways in which I was raised versus the ways in which my peers were raised, but certaintly at that junior high school age, which can be a tricky age for everyone, it was not cool for girls to speak. It was not cool for girls to participate. It was cool for girls to be dumb and for boys to be the one to participate. I don’t know if this has to do with coming from a different coming from a different country or not, but I couldn’t relate to that mentality. I’m not going to play dumb, I mean I might not get a concept, but I’m not going to play dumb in order to pretend I don’t understand a concept. That led to a major differentiation between me and my peers and led to some - I guess at the time it was called teasing, now it would probably be called bullying. I don’t know if it had to do with, I don’t know, I don’t know. I think partly, probably. I think, speaking with friends who have gone on to pursue PhDs who are Latinas, for them they said yeah, “We have an immigrant work ethic.” I wouldn’t necessarily want to generalize in that way but perhaps that played into it. I don’t know.
JS: Were you the only Latino in your class?
LH: There were two Latino boys in my class - no three. Three Latino boys and me.
JS: Were they of the same skin color, characteristics -
LH: They were all fairly light-skinned Latinos, some more brown than others, but they were all failry light-skinned Latinos as well. But it was a privileged environment. I should say I went to private school because I think that makes a big difference also. I did feel like my peers were really privileged in a way that I didn’t understand and in a way that I think to this day still affects my mother, interestingly. In that, she feels like her house is like the dog house compared to that of so many classmates I had growing up, who lived in huge - I mean I would call them mansions.
JS: What side of outside of D.C. were you in?
LH: I lived on the Maryland side, but I went to school on the Virginia side.
JS: Maryland. Montegomery County?
LH: Montegomery County, yes. You’re familiar with the area. (Laughter) I told my mom, “No, we acutally have a really nice house. It’s just these people live in mansions and I never could get used to that, even the friends that I made came were rarely ones that came from households with such privilege. For the most part I tended to feel more akin with people - I don’t know I just felt like I connected more with people who were in private school because they were on financial aid or had some kind of scholarship and couldn’t connect to this privilege mentality.
JS: Do you think the boys had similar struggles or you couldn’t tell?
LH: I don’t know. I don’t know. Yeah, I don’t know.
JS: In that time of girls-should-be-quiet-and-play-dumb and guys-have-to-know-it-all, was there ever interaction between you guys or were you all separated as well?
LH: What do you mean?
JS: Separated by the gender roles that you had to assume? Did that inhibit or limit social interaction between you and the other Latino boys?
LH: Oh. I wouldn’t say I had much interaction with the other Latino boys necessarily, but I think a lot of that had to do with a lot of the girls who interacted with boys in general were the ones who played dumb. The boys who didn’t really adhere to that stuck with boys, and the girls who didn’t adhere to that stuck with boys.
JS: I was just trying to understand the dynamics. Like did you guys ever come together and describe or relate some of the differences that you were having?
LH: No, it would be interesting as an adult now to do that, but I don’t know.
JS: Were any of your teachers Latino?
LH: Growing up in Argentine school, yes. (laughs) I don’t think so.
JS: Do you think that influenced you in any way?
LH: I’m trying to even think. I only remember one African American woman math teacher in high school. That’s it, I mean otherwise really my teachers were white, Anglo- women and men. I’m sure that influenced me and I’m sure that influenced the way they handled certain situations.
Yeah, it was until college. That was the first time I felt like I fit in.
JS: What do you mean by fit in?
LH: Where I could be myself. Where I could be myself. Where there were people around me who had similar ideas. Where I went to a place where education was something that was valued. Where we could have conversations until 4 a.m. in the dorms. Sometimes they were silly, sometimes they were deep. I also went to a school that didn’t have core requirements, other than the ones for your major. What that meant was pretty much every class that students took everyone wanted to be in the class. That lent itself to an amazing environment in terms of student really taking charge of their own education. I think that was an amazing thing probably for professors and students alike.
I think for all those reasons that was the first time I really felt like I fit in. Also, wasn’t an environment where I was surrounded with people from privileged backgrounds: there were people from all sorts of different backgrounds there. Even though it was a private university, there were people from all different backgrounds there, of all colors and it was an amazing environment. That’s where I felt like I finally found myself.
JS: I was going to say was it the diversity in college - the diversity of ideas and people - that really helped you come into your own.
LH: Yes, for sure.
JS: I guess my last question is, how do you define diversity, especially within the context of faculty diversity? Is it numbers? Is it race? Is it concrete? Or, is it a conglomerate of different things?
LH: I think it’s a lot of different things. I think part of it is numbers. To say otherwise, I think, would probably be false. But, I don’t think numbers are everything. Like we talked about at the start of the semester there can be a minority-majority. I think part of it has to do with which people are in positions of power because that also makes a big difference. Even if the four to six percent that you mentioned [referring to the four to six percent of Latinos who make up faculty of highere education institutions nationwide, which was discussed prior to recording.] goes up to twenty percent - I’m throwing out a random number - what does it mean if those in position of power are at two percent? So I think that’s a big part of it who has power. Of those four to six percent how many have tenure and how many are tenure-track or fix term? So that’s something else to thing about.
I think that, as you mentioned, diversity comes in all sorts of different ways. It comes with respect to questions of race, questions of ethnicity, questions of gender, sexuality, ability. It also comes with being open-minded and being willing to see places change and move forward based on changing demographics, especially here at a state school. What are the states changing demographics? What does it means if the demographics of the state are drastically different from the demographics of the faculty? What message does that send? So I think that’s part of it. But, I think it’s a lot of different things. I think it’s about what types of opportunities are made available and who has access to those opportunities.
JS: What are the implications that you think diversity has on a university setting?
LH: I think that diversity is a term that often gets used in a way that could potentially be tokenizing. That’s where I would say, yes numbers matter, but it’s not just about numbers. It’s also about politics. It’s also about the mentality that one brings in and the willingness to change and the willingness to be an ally of people to all different walks of life. I think diversity in its - and I don’t want to use the word truest because I have problems with that word - diversity in its best sense is about that. It’s about being open to people of different walks of life and recognizing that an attention to one particular group’s needs can only benefit everyone, so that there’s a relationship between the individual and the collective; an individual group’s need and a collective group. I think, for instance, with respect to Latino Studies, I think anyone can benefit from Latino Studies here at UNC. While a number of Latino students come and flock to the classes, its not just Latino students who are coming to flock and take the classes. I think that by the same token, having these types of classes allows Latino students to feel like, oh, they finally can see themselves. They finally can see themselves in history, in literature, in all sorts of areas of studies that maybe they hadn’t seen themselves in other courses they had previously taken. I think it’s really important for students to be able to identify with the material so that there isn’t a huge disconnect. I think once students are identified they are more likely to become committed. And once students in general are committed and invested in their education that leads to a better educational experience for everyone. I think the same could be true of learning about different groups, of realizing, “Oh my gosh, I didn’t even realize that this other group has gone through all of this.” And so the more we learn, the more informed we are and the more equipped we to make the types of changes we feel are necessary and, I guess to quote Gandhi as cliché as that might be, to be the change we want to see in the world.
JS: Do you feel like your position as a professor allows other Latinos on campus to see themselves.
LH: Yes. I do. I do. I say that and I feel like I can say that confidently, mostly because of students who come and ask me to speak to different student organizations, and then students who have come up to me after those talks come up to me and said, “Okay, now I want to take one of your courses,” and have indicated as much in terms of saying okay, finally, maybe this is something I can do with my life. I think that has to do with some of the conversations we’ve been having when we just finished reading, “A Home on the Field.” What does it mean if there’s a cycle where a population continually sees members of that population working in types of sectors of the labor population that invariably affects future generations in terms of what they might envision their futures looking like. I think the more of a presence that there is of Latino faculty, the more likely it is that those percentages will rise.
JS: Well, with that, I think we’re finished.
LH: Okay, great.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Profesores
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Laura Halperin es profesora asistente en Inglés y Literatura Comparativa en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill, donde investiga literaturas y culturas latinas contemporáneas. Actualmente ella está trabajando en un libro que se enfoca en las representaciones del daño en las novelas y memorias latinas de fines de siglo XX. Sus otros intereses académicos incluyen: latinas y latinos y educación, acceso a educación, los debates en educación sobre la enseñanza exclusiva del inglés versus la educación bilingüe o multilingüe y la censura de textos latinos en las bibliotecas y aulas de escuelas. La profesora Halperin, quien fue contratada en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill después de recibir una beca universitaria para aumentar la diversidad en el profesorado, discute sus áreas de investigación y su experiencia personal de ser latina en la educación superior. Ella explica lo afortunada que ha sido de no enfrentar mucha adversidad al ser de una minoría latina en instituciones de educación superior. Ella atribuye parte de su experiencia a su piel clara, ya que es una argentina rubia. Esta entrevista enfatiza las maneras en que la educación y el acceso a oportunidades de trabajo juegan papeles importantes en las vidas de migrantes y también explora asuntos de raza y diversidad.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Laura Halperin por Janell Smith, 17 Abril 2014, R-0704, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de North Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Identidad; Racismo y discriminación; Integración y segregación
Es: Transcripción
Janell Smith: Okay, this is Janell Smith in Hannah Gill’s global 382 class. I am here today, April 17, a Thursday of 2014, with Professor Laura Halperin. We are in Greenlaw building - Greenlaw Hall - room 403 at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. It’s about 12:26 in the afternoon and we are going to start our interview right now. So thank you, Professor Halperin, for speaking with me and taking time out of your schedule to talk with me. I kind of just want to start the interview with, “How did you get to UNC?” How did you get to professorhood?
Laura Halperin: Okay. Well, I came here straight from graduate school. I did my graduate work at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor. I started here on a post-doc. I received the Carolina Post-doctoral Fellowship for Faculty Diversity, which is a two year post-doctoral program and was fortunate enough to have that turn into a tenure-track position.
JS: Can you explain a little bit what that fellow is about?
LH: Yes, absolutely. It’s an amazing post-doctoral program similar to - for instance, in the University of California system, there’s a Carolina - or not Carolina, I’m sorry - UC president’s post-doctoral fellowship. What these fellowships are, are opportunities once people finish their PhDs. They are - here at Carolina it’s a two year, post-doctoral fellowship. It is across the university. So each year, different people apply for post-doctoral fellowships in different departments. It is through the Vice Chancellor’s office for Research and Economic Development. It is designed to promote diversity at the University, in terms of faculty. So, ideally, the way the program is envisioned is for people to start their post-doctoral fellowship with the hope that it will eventually turn into a tenured-track position. It’s not always guaranteed. It varies from one department to another. But, the hope is that, eventually, it will lead to a departmental position down the road. Right now the program has been reconfigured slightly different. The program now, as it exists, is smaller - quite a bit smaller than it was when I was a fellow. When I was a fellow there were ten post-docs across the span of two cohorts. Since it was a two-year program, sometimes there were four post-docs in my cohort, six in a previous. But sometimes that varied, those numbers vary. Now, from what I understand, that number has been cut from ten to five I believe, substantially because of funding, I think, questions. The way the post-doctoral program works is people apply. They indicate the departments where they would like to be housed. They can apply to more than one department. Then, what the post-doctoral program does is it sorts through all of the different application they receives. Then they send off all of the applications to the respective departments where the post-docs indicated that they would like to be housed. Each department then reads through all of the applications that they get and based on those applications can nominate up to two individuals, saying we would like to have this person and or this person, but no more than two. What the department really needs to articulate there is why is there a need to have someone who works in that particular field of study: If there’s a gap that can be filled that isn’t really currently being met or if there’s an area where a department wants to see more faculty working in a particular area of study. Then, each department puts forth one or two names and then that goes back to the post-doctoral program. Then there’s a selection committee there compiled of different people from across the University. Then they sort through all of the different departments that have put forth names and then determine who gets the post-docs. Usually, there are a few hundred applicants and then for a certain number of positions. The goal really is not only to increase diversity in terms of the racial and ethnic composition of the faculty, but ideally, I think also, folks who work in areas of study that are underserved and underrepresented in order to increase that type of diversity at the University so that it’s diversity in multiple arenas. Originally, the post-doc program was developed primarily for African American scholars and that has expanded over time to also include members of other racial and ethnic groups.
JS: I wonder if soon it’ll change for gender or sexual orientation or things of that nature.
LH: Yeah. I think there definitely are certain departs that are primarily male or sexual orientation, ability - I think there are different ways of conceiving the term diversity.
JS: And so, you said that departments had to explain why there’s a need.
LH: The department chair will write a letter.
JS: And so, in your case, what do you think the need was?
LH: We have the program in Latino Studies, which is housed in the English department. At the time when I applied to the post-doctoral program, the only faculty member in this department who worked in Latino Studies is the director of the program, Maria de Guzman. This is a program that - the Latino Studies, here at UNC, is the first Latino Studies program in the Southeast. North Carolina’s a state with the fastest growing Latino population. When you put those things together, I think there definitely was a need for more people working in this area.
JS: And how has it been working for the English department?
LH: It’s been great. It’s been wonderful. Yeah, absolutely wonderful. Folks here are really supportive and welcoming. I feel like, in general, it’s a really collegial environment so I’m incredibly fortunate.
JS: Did you ever face any hardships? Maybe that’s too strong of a word, but, difficulties? Maybe not when you first started the position, but, maybe, throughout the fellowship or even your post-doctorate degree? Did you face any hardships on account of being a Latina and being a minority in higher education?
LH: I will say for the most part, I’ve been incredibly fortunate and certainly here, at UNC and the English department, I’ve been incredibly fortunate. But, I do think that, and throughout my graduate career also, I will say though, that I know that especially speaking with friends who work at other universities and going to conferences where I am in touch with faculty who work at different universities, that’s not the case everywhere. I think part of that has to do with different university climates. But also, part of that has to do with the fact that I’m a light-skinned Latina, who’s Argentina American. If I were a darker skinned Latina from Mexico or from the Dominican Republic or something along those lines, would my experience be different? Most likely, yeah. I think that race makes a difference. Race makes a difference - race in terms of the visible phenotype - makes a big difference if we’re looking at race in that way, obviously we realize race as a construction. But, I think that makes a big difference. Now, are the experiences that faculty of color, regardless of what they look like, different? Yes. So I think it comes from, maybe, feeling obliged to and asked to and want to do more service work than other faculty maybe want to do. I think that in part has to do with different student organizations on campus - different Latino student organizations on campus - who have come and asked me to speak to their organizations. I love doing that. It’s an amazing opportunity, but, definitely, that’s a part of my job that other members of this faculty might not have. I think that’s a common trend across universities throughout the country in terms of service, in terms of the number of committees that people are asked to be on. Those are trends that we see across universities throughout the country. Unfortunately, the way the university systems work throughout the country is that for professors it’s really a ‘publish or perish’ model. I think that this department, in particular, has been really wonderful in recognizing that service is also incredibly important. That’s not the case of all departments and that’s not the case in a lot of places throughout the country, where service is undervalued and, yet, expected. If faculty members are being asked to do more service - if faculty of color are being asked to do more service than other faculty - then there’s less time to publish. And service doesn’t necessarily come in visible ways. If faculty are meeting with students on a more regular basis that’s time away from publishing. I think that something needs to be addressed, in terms of what work gets rewarded. I think that’s a national issue that merits attention.
JS: Do you feel like this University does a good job of recognizing?
LH: I hope so. (Laughs) I’m not up for tenure yet, so hopefully. Knock on wood. I do think this also varies from one department to the other. Every department has its own culture and I think, in general, my experience has been that people in this department really appreciate it when people show a vested commitment to the university in some way. I would like to think that this department is attuned to it in ways that make me feel lucky to be part of this department.
JS: What made you want to pursue teaching and being a professor?
LH: Okay. I didn’t know what I wanted to do right after college. I thought I wanted to do something totally different actually. I thought I wanted to go to law school. (Laughs). Is that what you’re thinking? Okay. (More laughter). I thought I wanted to go to law school and either practice international law or civil rights law or something where I was doing my part to make this world a better place. But, I knew I wanted to teach at some point in my life. While I was in college, there was one year when I volunteered at a restraining office helping survivors of intimate partner violence file restraining orders against their batterers. That was part of a public policy course that I took that there was a major service component and then I continued doing that service throughout the year, which I feel like gave me a little insight into how the legal system works. There wasn’t a pre-law thing where I went to school, but I took classes that were related to law to get a sense of what that experience would be like. And then I also volunteered one summer at a non-profit organization outside of D.C., helping migrants file for political asylum. What I realized during that - and also acting as a translator and interpreting documents, translating documents - as valuable as both of those experiences were, I felt…depressed isn’t quite the right word, but I felt like no matter how hard I tried or no matter what I did or what I saw the people, who actually had law degrees, were doing, I felt like every step forward almost felt like one step forward, two step backwards, instead of two step forwards, one step backwards. Most of the migrants whose claims I helped filed, I was told that those were most likely going to be dismissed as frivolous claims and those migrants were going to be sent back to their home countries even though they lived in fear for their lives if they were to return because they were political refugees. And so, that was incredibly frustrating to feel like, well, what type of justice is there in that. Same type of situation when working at the restraining office, when I realized that the majority of predominantly women, who came into the office, were most likely to resend their restraining orders and go back to living in situations where they were being abused on a regular basis. That’s not to minimize the work I felt like I was doing, but it felt like I wasn’t making the difference I wanted to make. I still was convinced that maybe I could do that, so I decided to apply for teaching positions right after college, thinking I would teach for a year or two after college and then go to law school. (Laughs) And we can talk more about this later because it sounds like we have some similarities here. So I did. I got a job teaching fourth through sixth grade and in a month into teaching, I realized that in the classroom I was making the type of difference I wanted to make and I could see it in a way that I couldn’t see, at least not tangibly so, in my experiences working in something related to the legal profession. I realized law was not for me because I needed to be able to see the difference. But then I wasn’t sure. I taught for three years while trying to figure out what I wanted to do. I taught sixth grade English and fourth, fifth and sixth grade Spanish. Then I realized that I wanted to go to graduate school and kind of combine some of my favorite components from teaching grade school. So, there was one unit that we taught in sixth grade English on Mildred Taylor’s, “Roll of Thunder Hear my Cry.” It’s a great book and we combined that unit. What we did was we included a little bit of historical background in that unit. With the mix of history and literature and talking about questions of social justice in relation to literature - that combined with teaching Spanish and teaching about culture, as well as language but teaching culture, too, and different cultures that speak Spanish; and also serving as one of the faculty mentors to a middle school student, completely voluntary middles school student group called “United, Unite Now in Tolerance and Equality,” that was designed to get students to just increase awareness about issues affecting people of color. Combining all three of those aspects of the job that really were my favorite parts of the job, I thought, “Alright, I want to go to grad school and I really want to focus on race, gender, ethnicity and literature in some capacity or another.” It was really huge and broad and amorphous at the time.
Somehow, despite how huge that was, I got in grad school. My first semester in grad school I realized I wanted to focus on Latino literature. That’s kind of the journey I took to get there.
JS: Were you ever impacted by the migration history of your family, in terms of in school, integrating or assimilating to American culture?
LH: I think so, although not in the ways we’ve read about in class. My experience was very different and again I think in part that has to do with the fact that I’m very light skinned; with the fact that we moved to the U.S. when I was two. Even now when people meet me they see me and they hear me speak, and they’re like, “But you don’t have an accent.” And I want to say, “Well, yes I do. We all have accents.” What they’re meaning is that you don’t have an accent that sounds different and you don’t look different and so those are racialized assumptions that they have when they’re asking questions like that. I didn’t have those experiences and I also didn’t live in a community with a huge number of Latinos and I didn’t go to school with a lot of Latinos. I did go to Argentine school every Saturday from first grade through sixth grade, which made my experience different. My difference is - where I felt it was in the fact that I went to school six days a week, instead of five, because when we moved to the states my parents thought we were only going to be here for a few years. The idea was we were going to move back to Argentina, so they sent me and my sister to Argentine schools on Saturday in order to keep up with language and history.The curriculum at the school was designed so that in one day you would cover what you would be covered in a week in school in Argentina so that if you went back you wouldn’t have to repeat a year.
JS: Where was this?
LH: This was outside of the D.C. area. In that sense my experience was different because my friends would have slumber parties or they would wake up and do sporting events or watch Saturday morning cartoons or something like that and I missed out on all of that growing up. At the time I bitterly complained, now I’m incredibly grateful, but at the time I complained. So, in that environment I was surrounded with a lot of Argentinians or Argentinian Americans, but there weren’t Latinos from different cultural backgrounds. So that made my experience different from the peers with whom I went to school five days a week. But, I guess there were other ways in which I think my experience was different. Apparently, I don’t remember this because I was so little, but my mom says when I started kindergarten or pre-k or something like that I just kept saying no one understands me. Of course I don’t remember that because I was so young, but I felt like no one understood me. Part of it was related to my name. I would introduce myself and my parents - my whole family - called me Louda, and I would introuduce myself and encounter a wall. My peers would say, “What? I can’t say that.” Then, I don’t remember if I just eventually said okay you can call me Laura or if that name was imposed on me and I just kind of adopted it while growing up. Now I assert myself as Louda, but at time it was this dual type identity where I was Laura at school or with my classmates, Monday through Friday, but I was Louda at home and Louda on Saturdays in Argentine schools and with the friends I had there. So that was a difference. Then there were just some other differences in terms of kids at school and at grade school bringing cupcakes for their birthdays. That’s not really something you do in Argentina and we didn’t bake in my household. So we would bring merengues with dulce leche, I think one year. Then we started bring empanadas. There was a way in which - it was interesting because my peers loved empanadas - but it marked me as different in a way, that I realize later, years later now that I have the analytical tools, there was a way in which I was exoctized for that. Peers would say that they wanted to be in my class, but really just because they wanted to have empanadas on my birthday, but still marking me as different. Then I think, and I don’t know if this has to do with me being a Latina or not, or just the different ways in which I was raised versus the ways in which my peers were raised, but certaintly at that junior high school age, which can be a tricky age for everyone, it was not cool for girls to speak. It was not cool for girls to participate. It was cool for girls to be dumb and for boys to be the one to participate. I don’t know if this has to do with coming from a different coming from a different country or not, but I couldn’t relate to that mentality. I’m not going to play dumb, I mean I might not get a concept, but I’m not going to play dumb in order to pretend I don’t understand a concept. That led to a major differentiation between me and my peers and led to some - I guess at the time it was called teasing, now it would probably be called bullying. I don’t know if it had to do with, I don’t know, I don’t know. I think partly, probably. I think, speaking with friends who have gone on to pursue PhDs who are Latinas, for them they said yeah, “We have an immigrant work ethic.” I wouldn’t necessarily want to generalize in that way but perhaps that played into it. I don’t know.
JS: Were you the only Latino in your class?
LH: There were two Latino boys in my class - no three. Three Latino boys and me.
JS: Were they of the same skin color, characteristics -
LH: They were all fairly light-skinned Latinos, some more brown than others, but they were all failry light-skinned Latinos as well. But it was a privileged environment. I should say I went to private school because I think that makes a big difference also. I did feel like my peers were really privileged in a way that I didn’t understand and in a way that I think to this day still affects my mother, interestingly. In that, she feels like her house is like the dog house compared to that of so many classmates I had growing up, who lived in huge - I mean I would call them mansions.
JS: What side of outside of D.C. were you in?
LH: I lived on the Maryland side, but I went to school on the Virginia side.
JS: Maryland. Montegomery County?
LH: Montegomery County, yes. You’re familiar with the area. (Laughter) I told my mom, “No, we acutally have a really nice house. It’s just these people live in mansions and I never could get used to that, even the friends that I made came were rarely ones that came from households with such privilege. For the most part I tended to feel more akin with people - I don’t know I just felt like I connected more with people who were in private school because they were on financial aid or had some kind of scholarship and couldn’t connect to this privilege mentality.
JS: Do you think the boys had similar struggles or you couldn’t tell?
LH: I don’t know. I don’t know. Yeah, I don’t know.
JS: In that time of girls-should-be-quiet-and-play-dumb and guys-have-to-know-it-all, was there ever interaction between you guys or were you all separated as well?
LH: What do you mean?
JS: Separated by the gender roles that you had to assume? Did that inhibit or limit social interaction between you and the other Latino boys?
LH: Oh. I wouldn’t say I had much interaction with the other Latino boys necessarily, but I think a lot of that had to do with a lot of the girls who interacted with boys in general were the ones who played dumb. The boys who didn’t really adhere to that stuck with boys, and the girls who didn’t adhere to that stuck with boys.
JS: I was just trying to understand the dynamics. Like did you guys ever come together and describe or relate some of the differences that you were having?
LH: No, it would be interesting as an adult now to do that, but I don’t know.
JS: Were any of your teachers Latino?
LH: Growing up in Argentine school, yes. (laughs) I don’t think so.
JS: Do you think that influenced you in any way?
LH: I’m trying to even think. I only remember one African American woman math teacher in high school. That’s it, I mean otherwise really my teachers were white, Anglo- women and men. I’m sure that influenced me and I’m sure that influenced the way they handled certain situations.
Yeah, it was until college. That was the first time I felt like I fit in.
JS: What do you mean by fit in?
LH: Where I could be myself. Where I could be myself. Where there were people around me who had similar ideas. Where I went to a place where education was something that was valued. Where we could have conversations until 4 a.m. in the dorms. Sometimes they were silly, sometimes they were deep. I also went to a school that didn’t have core requirements, other than the ones for your major. What that meant was pretty much every class that students took everyone wanted to be in the class. That lent itself to an amazing environment in terms of student really taking charge of their own education. I think that was an amazing thing probably for professors and students alike.
I think for all those reasons that was the first time I really felt like I fit in. Also, wasn’t an environment where I was surrounded with people from privileged backgrounds: there were people from all sorts of different backgrounds there. Even though it was a private university, there were people from all different backgrounds there, of all colors and it was an amazing environment. That’s where I felt like I finally found myself.
JS: I was going to say was it the diversity in college - the diversity of ideas and people - that really helped you come into your own.
LH: Yes, for sure.
JS: I guess my last question is, how do you define diversity, especially within the context of faculty diversity? Is it numbers? Is it race? Is it concrete? Or, is it a conglomerate of different things?
LH: I think it’s a lot of different things. I think part of it is numbers. To say otherwise, I think, would probably be false. But, I don’t think numbers are everything. Like we talked about at the start of the semester there can be a minority-majority. I think part of it has to do with which people are in positions of power because that also makes a big difference. Even if the four to six percent that you mentioned [referring to the four to six percent of Latinos who make up faculty of highere education institutions nationwide, which was discussed prior to recording.] goes up to twenty percent - I’m throwing out a random number - what does it mean if those in position of power are at two percent? So I think that’s a big part of it who has power. Of those four to six percent how many have tenure and how many are tenure-track or fix term? So that’s something else to thing about.
I think that, as you mentioned, diversity comes in all sorts of different ways. It comes with respect to questions of race, questions of ethnicity, questions of gender, sexuality, ability. It also comes with being open-minded and being willing to see places change and move forward based on changing demographics, especially here at a state school. What are the states changing demographics? What does it means if the demographics of the state are drastically different from the demographics of the faculty? What message does that send? So I think that’s part of it. But, I think it’s a lot of different things. I think it’s about what types of opportunities are made available and who has access to those opportunities.
JS: What are the implications that you think diversity has on a university setting?
LH: I think that diversity is a term that often gets used in a way that could potentially be tokenizing. That’s where I would say, yes numbers matter, but it’s not just about numbers. It’s also about politics. It’s also about the mentality that one brings in and the willingness to change and the willingness to be an ally of people to all different walks of life. I think diversity in its - and I don’t want to use the word truest because I have problems with that word - diversity in its best sense is about that. It’s about being open to people of different walks of life and recognizing that an attention to one particular group’s needs can only benefit everyone, so that there’s a relationship between the individual and the collective; an individual group’s need and a collective group. I think, for instance, with respect to Latino Studies, I think anyone can benefit from Latino Studies here at UNC. While a number of Latino students come and flock to the classes, its not just Latino students who are coming to flock and take the classes. I think that by the same token, having these types of classes allows Latino students to feel like, oh, they finally can see themselves. They finally can see themselves in history, in literature, in all sorts of areas of studies that maybe they hadn’t seen themselves in other courses they had previously taken. I think it’s really important for students to be able to identify with the material so that there isn’t a huge disconnect. I think once students are identified they are more likely to become committed. And once students in general are committed and invested in their education that leads to a better educational experience for everyone. I think the same could be true of learning about different groups, of realizing, “Oh my gosh, I didn’t even realize that this other group has gone through all of this.” And so the more we learn, the more informed we are and the more equipped we to make the types of changes we feel are necessary and, I guess to quote Gandhi as cliché as that might be, to be the change we want to see in the world.
JS: Do you feel like your position as a professor allows other Latinos on campus to see themselves.
LH: Yes. I do. I do. I say that and I feel like I can say that confidently, mostly because of students who come and ask me to speak to different student organizations, and then students who have come up to me after those talks come up to me and said, “Okay, now I want to take one of your courses,” and have indicated as much in terms of saying okay, finally, maybe this is something I can do with my life. I think that has to do with some of the conversations we’ve been having when we just finished reading, “A Home on the Field.” What does it mean if there’s a cycle where a population continually sees members of that population working in types of sectors of the labor population that invariably affects future generations in terms of what they might envision their futures looking like. I think the more of a presence that there is of Latino faculty, the more likely it is that those percentages will rise.
JS: Well, with that, I think we’re finished.
LH: Okay, great.
Dublin Core
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Title
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R-0704 -- Halperín, Laura.
Description
An account of the resource
Laura Halperin is an assistant professor of English and comparative literature at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, where she researches contemporary Latina/o literatures and cultures. She is currently working on a book project, which focuses on representations of harm in late twentieth century Latina novels and memoirs. Her other research interests include Latinas/os and education, access to education, debates surrounding English-Only policies and bilingual or multilingual education, and censorship of Latina/o texts in school libraries and classrooms. Professor Halperin who was hired as a professor at UNC after receiving a diversity fellowship, discusses her areas of study, as well as her personal experience as a Latina in higher education. Halperin explains how fortunate she has been to face relatively little adversity as a result of her ethnicity as a Latina minority in higher education institutions. She attributes some of her experience to her fairer skin, as she is a lighter skin Argentinian. This interview emphasizes the ways in which education and access to job opportunities play an important role in migrants’ lives, and also explores issues of race and diversity.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
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17 April 2014
Format
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R0704_Audio.mp3
Publisher
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/20991">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/ab94dab3c9884f6ca9901d0afca3af20.mp3
fd1ce3125bd13e51ef0a91221be8cd6e
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/a339666c8a45ef6969019a56083d8d83.pdf
9c11738fcc5f8888c37e187726c9e206
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0682
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
14 April 2014
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Buchanan, Regan.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Students Social justice activists
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Raleigh -- North Carolina -- United States
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Chapel Hill -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Lodaya, Hetali.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Regan Buchanan discusses her family background, how she got involved in immigration issues, as well as her experiences working with Students United for Immigrant Equality at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill this year. Buchanan discusses the intersection of immigration issues and race, and her own position as someone coming from a social and family background where she often does not have to confront issues of race. She discusses the challenges of addressing ignorance and apathy as a student advocate, as well as her strategies for engaging various kinds of audiences with these issues. She does not believe that the immigration reform movement needs one overarching leader; rather, she sees the need for a core group of leaders to step up and motivate the youth who are already at the forefront of this movement. She thinks that access to education is a key issue that those who work for immigration reform should be focusing on.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Regan Buchanan by Hetali Lodaya, 14 April 2014, R-0682, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/19870
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Citizenship and immigration; Activism; Education; University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill; Racism and discrimination
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Hetali Lodaya: This is Hetali Lodaya, I’m interviewing Regan Buchanan, on April 14th, 2014, on the second floor of the Campus Y. So let’s just start with something really simple, if you can talk about where you’re from, where your family’s from, and sort of your background coming to Carolina?
Regan Buchanan: Okay, sure. So I’m from Raleigh, North Carolina, I’ve lived there since I was two years old, so that’s home for me. My mom and her side of the family are all from rural Kentucky, and my dad’s side of the family, it’s kind of hard to explain, but he and his sister were born in Canada, and everybody else is from Scotland and England. So that’s an interesting dynamic I guess, but he grew up in North Carolina, and moved to Kentucky with my mom, and then they moved back here, and it’s all very complicated. But yeah. That’s a tough question, I guess. But that’s pretty much where my family is from. I always wanted to go to a really great school, and I’ve always been more liberal arts minded, so when I was thinking about places that I could go, I wanted to go somewhere that fulfilled all those requirements. But also I’m a homebody and-and family is very important to me, and so I love that I’m only forty minutes down the road. And UNC is one of the best schools in the country, and it’s a public school, and it’s just so convenient, and so how could you not want to go here? I’m sorry, it was where I was from, where my family is from, and what led me to UNC?
HL: Mhmm.
RB: Yeah, so that’s pretty much it. I’m really happy here.
HL: Cool. Can you tell me a little bit about how you got involved in advocacy work that you do, and immigrant advocacy work?
RB: Sure. I don’t know, I’m a very self-reflective person, so starting, I guess, in high school-I come from rural-a place in Raleigh that’s very conservative, and I used to hear things in my high school, you know how high schoolers are, they always hear things their parents say-and then just regurgitate them at any moment, when there’s like a classroom debate. I heard kids saying things like, oh, well, immigrants, they’re taking our jobs, and immigrants are here and they’re leeching off the system. And I was thinking about that and I said, well, my dad’s an immigrant-and no one ever really complains about him taking-he’s occupying an American job and no one’s complaining. And I was like, oh, it’s because he’s white. So for me it-I realized that immigration isn’t necessarily a problem of origin, more a problem of race. So for me, that just kind of made me very upset, to think that people were using origin as an excuse to just be racist. I-my dad is really good friends with an immigration attorney, and so I interned at his law firm for-just between Christmas break and going back over the year my senior year, and I just really loved-even just going through files and seeing people. And when I went through these files I was seeing just money orders. Like people, like Western Union, sending money to their families. And so like month, month, month, month consistently for years. Then I even saw undocumented people paying taxes. Like tax forms, IRS forms. And I was just thinking to myself, well, they don’t seem like leeches at all to me. In fact, they seem like they’re family oriented just like I am, and they are contributing to this economy. Then also they do jobs-are doing jobs that no one else here wants to do. And so I started forming opinions about immigration earlier. And then I came to UNC and I know that this is a great place for social justice, and I was very excited about the idea of being involved in an immigration reform group. I was at Fall Fest and Pia, our co-chair, was out there, and she had her dog, Louie, who’s the most adorable thing in the world, and I was missing my dog so much, so I went and talked to her. And I started petting Louie, and I saw her sign, and it said for immigration reform, and I was like, oh my gosh! This must be fate. And I signed up, and of course you sign up for a million things at Fall Fest, and that was probably one of the only few that I ended up following through and actually going to the meeting for. So-wow, that was a lot of prepositions in that sentence and it didn’t really make much sense. But anyway, so that was cool. And I went to the meeting, and I heard Emilio and Pia talk, and they were the first undocumented people I had ever met, and I was just like, well, these people have been demonized for me for-like I said, I grew up in a suburb, everybody’s white and middle class, and very ignorant sometimes unfortunately. So I was like, these people are not bad at all, they’re really nice and they’re intelligent and smart and just want to give back to people, just like me. It’s not anything like what I’ve grow up hearing. So that’s what got me excited about it. Then we started on the One State, One Rate campaign. And I just-learning the facts about what immigration is, and just all of the things that are preventing these people from bettering their lives in our state and our country just made me so upset. I cherish education, and the fact that somebody else doesn’t have the opportunity to do the same thing just really unsettled me. So that’s why I got involved.
HL: Sure. What over the course of this year, being involved with SUIE, do you feel like has been one of the biggest challenges, in the work that you all do?
RB: I guess for me one of the biggest challenges was probably a day we stood outside of Lenoir with signs encouraging people to sign our petition for the One State, One Rate campaign. Mostly because I-before that I had been surrounded by only SUIE members when we were doing our work, and by people that were just as passionate about the issue as I was, and I sort of was working under this false pretense that everybody knows that immigration is a big deal, and everybody kind of has general facts, and people are accepting. We got out to Lenoir and it was just very unsettling how many people just didn’t understand what we were talking about, and how many very ignorant things were said, and even at UNC. I was very shocked. Especially-I had a conversation with somebody that I knew, and my roommate was friends with, and he was like, well, immigrants, don’t pay taxes, like, they shouldn’t be here, and blah blah blah. And I tried to give him statistics about it, and he was just like, no. And I was taken aback, I was just like, what do you mean, no, that’s a number, there’s no “no”, there’s no, I have a different opinion, it’s a statistic. Like there’s no-and I was just taken aback by how people just refuse to learn sometimes and refuse to just open their minds to things. And I think that for me was a big challenge and I was very, very discouraged by that day. I remember getting done with it and I went and sat in the library and ate lunch by myself, and I was like, I just need to regroup for a little while and think about things, because it was just really disheartening, how many people just don’t know anything about it. And then a lot of people just don’t care to know anything even when I’m there trying to present them with information. So that was a big challenge for me.
HL: What do you think it will take to get over that, maybe sort of specific to campus or specific to North Carolina?
RB: You know what, that’s a really good question. It’s very frustrating to me, because I feel like a lot of times ignorance is bred because your parents bring you up to believe a certain thing. But then once you get to a certain age, I believe most of us are capable of generating our own thoughts and our ideas, and it’s almost like–it’s self-perpetuated, and I don’t know how you’re going to get over that. I honestly think it has to start with politicians and leaders because they themselves a lot of times contribute to this demonization of immigrants, of this horrible group of people. And again, it’s a highly racialized thing. And that leads to the media as well, you see so many news stories-I think someone at Fox News was comparing immigrant children to Children of the Corn, or something like that, and I was just like-that’s a Stephen King novel, and you’re comparing horror children to-immigrants to horror children. I don’t know, and things like that-because that’s what people see, and that’s what people hear every day. And if they just started presenting real facts to people instead of these dramatized portrayals, then maybe people will start understanding what this issue is. And it’s a human rights problem, it’s not a policy problem. This affects real human lives every day.
HL: Sure. You mentioned a couple of groups of people that you interact with in doing this work. There’s your other SUIE members, there’s other stakeholders, campus community, elected officials, people that touch this issue in different ways. What is it like working with other people to do this work? Are there challenges, are there people that you don’t work with that you wish you did?
RB: I really wish that we could work with the-we could make this a bipartisan issue. Right now we partner with Young Democrats a lot, with events, but I’ve never talked to the campus Republicans-I doubt there’s that many of them anyway. But I really-because like I said, this is-my biggest thing is I like to-I try to portray the immigration issue. It’s not like, I’m not some crazy person that’s trying to just, highly driven by emotion and not by logic, trying to get you to believe what I believe, I’m trying to show you that there’s a reason, economic, moral reasons to reform immigration. And so I wish that we could work-because I think that it could be a bipartisan thing. I wish that there was a way to convince Republicans on this campus, in the legislature, in the country, in North Carolina, to just look at the facts and accept those. And open their minds to what we’re trying to say. Because I think it’s a logical argument. And so that’s really hard, because we don’t work with them. And that’s a challenge. And then also a challenge, what I’ve learned this year is that you can get-you can talk to people, and most people are receptive and they’re like, oh, that’s interesting, oh, that’s cool but there’s a big leap between somebody being receptive to what you’re saying, and being able to get somebody to get up at eight o’clock in the morning and hold a poster with you at a BOT meeting. Or get somebody impassioned about something. That takes a lot more. And there’s a big difference. Like, I would talk to people in Lenoir, and be like, oh, are you interested in signing the petition, or liking us on Facebook, and that’s not hard, and they’d be like, yeah, sure, but I’d be like, would you be interested in coming out to a SUIE meeting at seven or would you be interested in standing out on the South Building when we have a press conference, and that’s just a completely different story. And I just thought that was interesting, how we are-I don’t know, increasingly lazy? I guess, it’s easy to do something through your computer but not get out and show what you care about. I thought that was interesting.
HL: Sure. Do you, in working with other students here around campus, I don’t know if you’ve gotten to interact with students that do this work from other universities, from other parts of the state, do you feel as though everyone is on the same page about how to do this work, how to be advocates for immigrant rights, or are there differences in opinions among different student advocates?
RB: Well, right now, the only student advocates that I’m-we work with as SUIE are satellite campaigns for One State, One Rate at UNC-Charlotte and UNC-Asheville. Because they are mirrored after our own campaign, they are going about things generally the same way that we are. The One State, One Rate campaign initially tried to get Chancellor Folt to endorse in-state tuition for undocumented students. But then we realized that she doesn’t really control that herself, and so now it’s like trying to get legislature to support us. And I think right now- UNC-Asheville and UNC-Charlotte are both trying to get their chancellors on board with what’s going on there. Other than that we haven’t-we don’t have a lot of interaction with other campuses about immigration advocacy.
HL: So you’ve talked a little bit about how it seems to you that a big part of the issue here isn’t immigration per say but it’s more about race.
RB: Yeah.
HL: Do you think it affects your being involved in this work that you-that you are white?
RB: I mean, affects-[pause]-I personally don’t feel, it doesn’t affect me negatively, I don’t-I personally feel like I haven’t encountered a situation in which I’ve been discriminated against because I’m white. But I definitely am a minority whenever we’re working, and that’s an interesting dynamic coming from a white suburb where anyone else but you was ever a minority. I-I worry about that, because if I am to get involved with personally working with immigrant communities in the future, is whether they’ll trust me or not. And I’ve also-people have just like, go ahead and assume that I don’t know Spanish and I speak pretty good Spanish, and I’m working on my minor, and so some things like-especially when I was working at the law firm, like they-I would answer the phone, and be like, buenos días, and they would be like-they obviously can tell that I’m not a native speaker because of my accent, and they would be like, are you sure you know Spanish, before I talk to you about this, and I’m like yeah, we’re okay, I promise. So that’s the one thing I worry about with me being white. But I also think it’s important, because the fact that I’m a co-chair of SUIE shows that this isn’t just a Latin American issue. Like, it’s an everybody issue. Like I said, my dad is Canadian, and he’s an immigrant here, but like I said no one really thinks about that. And there-because it’s such a racialized issue, no one cares about white immigrants here. So I think it’s important to show that it’s a diverse problem.
HL: Specifically talking about within the Latino immigrant community in North Carolina, having folks that are undocumented and having folks that are allies in that movement, what do you see is the role of people maybe who aren’t directly from a particular community, who aren’t undocumented, advocating for and wanting to support their rights and their advancement?
RB: What’s their role? Well, I think, in the undocumented community there’s a lot of fear, of being-of stepping up and being in the spotlight, because they’re always living in fear of being deported. So I think anyone with legal status, their role is to, you know, stand up for them. Because they understandably are afraid to voice their opinions and so as a legal citizen-as somebody like me, who’s born here, or somebody that has a green card, or anyone that has legal status-they need to stand up for the rights of the undocumented. I think that’s their role, is to defend a group that can’t defend themselves, a lot of times.
HL: Sort of a similar question, what do you see as your role as a student advocate in particular for immigration rights?
RB: Well right now I think my-a really big focus of what I’m doing is I just want to share the information and the facts with people that I go to school with. You can ask any of my friends, I talk about this a lot. The big reason for that is I really want my time here to be used effectively, to, you know, change somebody’s mind, and if I can educate four people in a semester about what the real facts about immigration are, then I’d be really happy, because those people are going to get-those people will understand what immigration is, and when it comes time to vote, they will vote for people who are in favor of immigration reform. So right now I think that’s in the smallest-on the smallest scale, I feel like that’s what I do here. Also, when we talk to the Immigrant Youth Forum of Chapel Hill and Carrboro, SUIE collaborates with them a lot, and I want them to know that kids in college especially-I think that a lot of times there is, and rightfully so, there is a stereotype of privileged white kids, like, they don’t really care, they’ve got their ticket. My parents are paying for me to go here, and I haven’t really-I don’t have to work for my tuition, and I want them to know that I haven’t forgotten about people that can’t go here. And so I think that that’s another thing that I want to do while I’m here, is tell those people, I understand that this is hard, and I’m trying to help you. Like, I’m not just going to stick my head in the sand and have my great four years here and forget that there are people trying to fight to be where I am all the time.
HL: Do you think, of all the things that make up immigration reform, whether that’s talking about wages and pay and ability to travel and path to legal status and access to education and tuition in state, is there one piece of this work that you think is more important or that needs to be focused on first?
RB: That’s really tough. Honestly, wages is a big deal-wages are a big deal, but education right now is, I just think it’s crucial. Because without the ability to allow immigrants to have the access to education at an affordable rate, then you’re just keeping people in a cycle of poverty, and what good does that do any of us? So if you look at Alabama for instance, they tried to pass a law that kept immigrants from using any public works, so like even public elementary and middle schools. Now what good are you going to do if you have an entire population of immigrant children that can’t read or write in English, and then they’re going to grow up and they can’t read or write in English? Now what good does that serve any of us? And if you are-allow immigrant people to get educated and-because they want to, of course, they want to better their lives here, if we just give them a chance. So I think if you allow them to get educated, they can go ahead and get jobs that are higher paying, and then also have more weight because they contribute more significantly to the tax base, and then also have more political clout as well, because they’re going to have a higher percentage of-there’s going to be a higher percentage of wealthy Latinos, and thus they’ll be able to influence the political things. So I think honestly if you just give these people the means to make their lives better through education, then I think a lot of it will sort itself out.
HL: And you think that applies to in particular North Carolina as well?
RB: Oh yeah, especially. We were doing research a couple weeks ago, because we were giving a presentation, and I want to say that there-we were talking about the DREAM Act, and how that’s never been passed, and if it were to be passed, there’s a really, really large amount of people that would be eligible for it. And if you factor in that all of these people will graduate from college, or serve in the military, and then go on to get jobs, they would contribute I think three trillion dollars to taxable income in the United States. So it’s-I don’t know, it’s a problem that affects the entire country, but North Carolina specifically, because we don’t even let them have in-state tuition here.
HL: Why did you decide to run for co-chair for SUIE or be a leader in SUIE?
RB: I guess, for me, I’m-I don’t know how to say this without sounding really lazy, but it’s really hard for me to get motivated about things that I don’t care about. So reading for a class, it’s really hard to get myself to do it, or to not procrastinate, and I always found myself very engaged in what SUIE was doing, I never minded going to meetings, I never minded really doing anything to just help out. And I was like, well that means I’m passionate about it, because it’s not a chore. And I just wanted-I want to help this organization succeed. And that’s-I just was like, why not?
HL: And what are you goals for SUIE next year?
RB: I’d like to increase our membership. Right now we have like twenty active members, and we can probably get like fifteen to show up on a good day to a meeting. And that’s really exciting, but I’d like to increase that, and I’d also like to increase the amount of events that we’re able to hold, like I said because we don’t have as many members as another club, a lot of times-or organization-a lot of times it’s hard to get with the-everyone has demanding academic schedules, so it’s hard to get everybody together, or host an event if we’re all busy and there’s only fifteen of us. So I’d love to have more members so that we can have different events, just educational things. We have a couple events where we just hosted people, and we were just like, well we’re going to present you guys with a PowerPoint and then open it up for questions. So that was just a really great dialogue of just educating people and shedding light on the issue, and I feel like I would love to have more events like that, and I think if we have more members, those will definitely be a reality. And I’d also like to work more closely with Immigrant Youth Forum, and just work harder on One State, One Rate, because right now the Attorney General Roy Cooper, over Christmas break he said that as North Carolina law stands right now, there’s no room to give in-state tuition to undocumented students. So we need to go about getting endorsements from other stakeholders. And I’m not exactly sure how we’re going to do that, but it has to happen, so hopefully we can figure out some way to do that next year.
HL: How do you feel when you think about tackling some of these issues, particularly One State, One Rate? How do you feel about what that’s going to be like over the next year, the next couple of years?
RB: It’s a little stressful, because it’s a really big challenge, but it’s also really exciting, and also, working with SUIE, especially just with immigration reform in general, you have to accept the fact that you’re not-you’re not going to change the hearts and minds of people in a year, or two or three or even maybe ten. So for me I was thinking the other day, I was like, well, I mean, not everyone can be a Gandhi, you know? Not everyone can be a Cesar Chavez. But you can be the people that lay the work, lay the footwork for those people, lay the foundation. So when I think about One State, One Rate, I think maybe we’re not going to get in-state tuition in my four years here at Chapel Hill, but if I can start the conversation, and get some politicians in our favor, and change the way that people think about in-state tuition for undocumented students, then maybe in the coming years after I graduate and after I’m gone, then we’ll have some success and some real legislation passed in favor of undocumented students.
HL: Do you think immigration reform in North Carolina or broadly needs a Gandhi or a Cesar Chavez?
RB: You know, I think they need somebody. Like we need to rally around a central person, I feel like. Well, now that I think about it, that’s kind of silly. Because, we’ve got a really large population of undocumented students in North Carolina. But like I said, there’s a culture of fear surrounding that. So I think you need maybe a smaller group of leaders, specifically maybe undocumented leaders, because if they can see that these people are stepping out of the shadows-because that’s what they call it, stepping out of the shadows-stepping out of the shadows and saying we’re not afraid, we’re undocumented, we’re not afraid of being deported, we have to stand up for our rights because this is our home just as much as it is anyone else’s, then we can rally around that. But I don’t think we need one person, we need a group of like ten or twelve.
HL: What do you think it will take to get more undocumented people willing and ready to step out of the shadows?
RB: Well, the younger generation is already making a big jump. Like I said, Immigrant Youth Forum, those are all high school, early college age kids. So younger kids are less afraid because this-we’re beginning to change the conversation about undocumented students. But I don’t know what you’re going to have to do for the older generation, because for them family and being able to provide for your family is everything, and so risking that, for anything, is just unreasonable, and selfish. And so I think for them, they would just rather remain anonymous. We were doing a photo gallery the other day for SUIE and one of our members was taking pictures of local undocumented immigrants with items of significance for them. And you noticed the subjects of the pictures that were younger had no problem with their faces being photographed. But after about the age of 30 or 40, it was just a body picture, no faces. So I just think that they can’t even-they’re afraid of even getting their picture taken. So I’m not really sure about how you would go about changing that. I just think information would be the biggest thing, and then maybe something will happen.
HL: Do you think it is important to or it matters to? Maybe they face of immigrant advocacy by undocumented people in North Carolina is-is youth. Is that okay, or do you need everyone?
RB: Well, it normally starts with youth, doesn’t it. Everything does. But I think that-I mean, one thing I’ve been learning this year is that any movement that has large amounts of success has to have multifaceted areas. So you have to have older people supporting you, you can’t be a bunch of crazy college kids, because that’s exactly how you’re going to be labeled. So if you just have a bunch of 18-years olds like, yes! We need rights! No matter how right you are, the people that are older than you are just going to dismiss it as youthful ignorance. So you need older working class people to stand up and be like, no, they’re right, we agree with that completely. And that doesn’t just stem from undocumented populations. We need people like my parents, conservative older people that live in my suburb to support what we do. Because they’re the people that really hold the power. If a bunch of undocumented people get upset, no one really cares, because they don’t have a vote, they can’t vote, it’s not really that big of a deal. But if you get a bunch of wealthier people in a wealthy suburb of Raleigh to be like no, it’s actually not cool guys, you’re kind of being jerks, then it’s much more significant. So you need support from all sides.
HL: Where do you hear this or feel like you get this impression, that people think you’re just a bunch of crazy college kids, loud college kids?
RB: You know, unfortunately, a lot of times that comes from my family. Not from my parents, they’re very open-minded, but my-like I said, my mom’s side of the family is from rural Kentucky, and they’re wonderful people, I’m certainly not discounting that at all, I love them to death, so great, but they-they come from a different area. And different experiences. And so that lends itself to a different worldview. I think when I first started getting involved with these things that SUIE was doing, they were seeing posts on Facebook and all this kind of stuff, and I came for Thanksgiving and they were like, now, what is this stuff that you’re getting involved in at UNC? Have they liberalized you? What is going on? And I was like, well, first of all, was that way before I came. Second of all, it’s not crazy, and so that just for the most part is what made me think that people were seeing what I was doing as, oh, this is what all college kids do. They get really idealistic at this age and then they graduate and the world hits them and it’s over, but for me this is like a problem that’s going to perpetuate for the rest of my life. Then, thankfully, once I presented the issue to them and the actual facts about everything, they were completely understanding of what I was doing. So it was no longer a crazy college kid phase. It was like oh, she’s actually passionate about a real issue. So that’s like-my family, they’re the greatest people in the world, they just, they have different ways of going about thinking about things when they first hear it, but then they’re completely understanding once they get the real facts about stuff.
HL: Do you think it’s harder to speak to people that you know, family, things like that, or is it harder to speak to strangers?
RB: It’s really hard with your family. Because-I personally, I have a really bad habit of when somebody doesn’t agree with me, I get really mad. So especially when it’s something like this where I have dedicated a lot of my time and I believe it firmly with all my heart-and there’s lots of facts behind me, I know it’s not just some silly thing that I’m believing-and so when somebody’s just like, “no”, I don’t like that. And I know it comes from a place of ignorance instead of from a place of actual facts-that makes me really upset. And I don’t want to be upset with people I love, or people that I have to be around on a regular basis-that’s I think what made it so hard about arguing with that one guy in front of Lenoir that was my roommate’s friend, because I know him and I see him all the time. And now I think he has that bad image of me, and I think when you’re passionate about something, you have to be prepared to turn some people off with your-
HL: Are there things that you think student advocates should be doing or things that you’ve seen SUIE do to try to combat this idea of crazy college kids, to come off maybe as more level-headed or-or is it ok?
RB: To a certain degree, I think it’s fine. You have to be idealistic, otherwise you’re not going to be hopeful and it’s going to be sad and boring. But I-honestly, I don’t think really SUIE gives off the impression that we’re crazy. We don’t do anything like-we’re not like the weatherman or anything like that, where we like give bombs to people, or stuff-I shouldn’t say bombs on this thing, I’m sorry.
HL: It’ll be fine.
RB: I think that we just need to stop-when you’re appealing [pause] to people of the right, conservative side, you need to present facts and statistics and straight hard numbers instead of the moral appeal, because to me, when you’re talking just about morals, that’s when it comes off as, oh, you’re a college kid, what do you know about the world. But if you just give them straight, hard facts, and numbers, that’s something that is going to apply to everything that they do. So that’s I think how you avoid sounding like you’re just this idealistic college kid, is you’re like no, actually, I have this statistics sheet here all ready for you. Throw out some literature. But I don’t know.
HL: Coming off of that, you said something really interesting earlier about you-when you first started working, when you first started interning, you got this sense that these are family people-
RB: Yeah.
HL: -just like I am. And I think one of the values that we associate with the conservative movement or with the Republican Party is this idea of family values. Where do you think that disconnect comes from?
RB: I don’t-I think that, again, I think it boils down to race. For them, family is-it’s not nice to say them-for crazy [pause] very, very right-winged conservatives, I think for them what they say is family values, is, oh, family values for white people. Family values for us. When they think of family values they think of a wife who stays at home and a dad who goes and earns a six-figure salary and brings it back, and then have 2.5 kids and a dog and a white picket fence, and that’s family. They’re stuck in that idea. But when I think Latin Americans or any immigrants, when they think of family, they think of-it’s like a different concept, it’s like your grandmother, your grandfather, your aunts, your uncles, your cousins, this whole inclusive set of people, and they all share this tie to their homeland or to where they live now and it’s all just-it’s very great ,but I think the disconnect arises with the race thing is like oh, I think about, a white family, it’s really cute and has blond kids, but not like a Latin American family or a black family or an Indian family or anything like that. I think that’s a big problem that they have.
HL: Do you think sharing numbers and statistics and very hard facts will change some of those perceptions, and some of that focus on race?
RB: I think it opens the door. Because like I said, a lot of times when you just go in with this really impassioned emotionally driven moral appeal, it’s very easy for people just to shut you out. So if you go ahead with the statistics, that gets people listening, because it’s very calm, it’s very prepared, and it’s very fact-oriented. That way you have more a presentable argument, and then once you’ve got them on that, you say, these people are family people just like you. And then you get them with, you’re a racist, but you say it very casually-just because they’re from Latin America doesn’t mean that their family is less than yours, or something like that. I was talking to my dad the other day, and he’s very conservative, and I was like, you know, dad, if the law-or if for some reason public opinion shifted and Canadian immigrants were now these horrible people like, you wouldn’t be here, you’d be demonized, and how would that feel? Just things like that, trying to relate it as much back to their own experiences is how you get them.
HL: Have you found that it works?
RB: Yeah, absolutely. Like, my parents, they’re both rather conservative-like not crazy, they’re like more middle of the road-and just relating it back to, they value work, very, very-like work ethic, very, very much. And so if you talk about, you know, the immigrant community, they come here and they want to make a better life for themselves. They’re not sitting around, they’re not just trying to leech off the system-which I don’t know how they would do because they don’t have a social security number anyway to apply for welfare-but they say that anyway-but they’re actually working really hard and the jobs they do are not glamorous but they’re trying to make a better life for themselves and their family. And my parents know what that’s like, because they try to do that every day. So if you can find ways to relate what-or know your audience, and relate your issue to what is special for them, then a lot of times they’re more accepting to what you have to say. Because that gets my parents a lot, is they’re working really hard.
HL: Sure. What skills have you found to be most important to have as a student advocate or that you think will be most important over the next couple years?
RB: Well, communicating is really important, just because you understand an idea doesn’t mean that somebody else will. So you have to be able to communicate things in a very relatable way, like I was just talking about, or in a very clear and concise manner. Also, nobody likes to sit and listen to tons of legal jargon about the different bills that are passed, so keep it short and simple. Also, I think being calm when you’re arguing with people, because you’re not going to win anybody over by calling them a dick and running away. So that’s important. And then…
HL: Any things that you think are particular to North Carolina or to working at UNC, even?
RB: Working at UNC… I mean, I think that you have to understand that-I love this place so much, and there’s a really great network of people willing to help you if you just give them-like I said, if you just give them the facts and tell them why your issue is important. So just don’t be afraid to ask for help, some of our best events have come from collaborations with CK, or one time we worked with the Indian sorority on campus, and that was really wonderful, and they came from unexpected friendships, and people are willing to listen to what you have to say, just ask for them to do that, and that’s how you’re very successful.
HL: Do you think that that’s how you might approach this over the next couple of years and that the best strategy is about making this about more people than just the Latino community, or just the undocumented community? Do you just bring everybody under the umbrella?
RB: Yeah, I completely agree with that, because like I said, it’s really easy for people to get wrapped up in their own lives, and that’s through no fault of their own, we’re very self-oriented creatures, but if you show people how this affects them and how this affects people like them, then it makes it much more of an impactful issue. So like I said, that’s why I think it’s also important-this sounds weird-but the fact that I’m white helps SUIE a little bit, because it’s like, oh, there’s somebody that’s not Latino that’s worried about immigrants, like that’s-why? And then they’re interested in why I care. Which is kind of bad, but also I can use it to my advantage, I guess.
HL: How do you think other people in SUIE feel about what you just-what you just articulated?
RB: I don’t know, I haven’t really talked to them about it. I don’t-I think race is such a tricky thing that everybody just likes to avoid it. I always feel very uncomfortable because, like I’ve said numerous times here, I come from a just a majority white area, and so if I-I feel uncomfortable talking about race because I’m afraid I’m going to offend people, because I’ve just not been around it where the dialogue is very-like it happens frequently, so I just like, I’m afraid that I’m going to say something and people will be like, ahhh! So we haven’t really talked about it. I don’t think that they view me as any different than they are. And there-we have-like there are different races represented in our group of people, which is good, I think. I don’t really think that they-we haven’t had really a conversation about it.
HL: Do you think it’s important for the advocacy community to bring up this topic more? So you’ve talked about how you feel like in some ways, the issue is not as much immigration status as it is race. Do you think that it’s important to make that a part of the public dialogue about the issue of immigration?
RB: I wouldn’t use that as a the forefront of your argument, because then you’re going to make people really upset, because nobody wants to be called a racist, so I think that the best way is to be really sneaky about it, like I was talking about before, and you really just start with tax reasons. And then go for moral appeals and then after that you hit the race card. Because, like I said, nobody wants to be called a racist. That’s not going to make anybody happy.
HL: How do you see yourself continuing to be involved in this work? After being a student, is it something you want to keep doing?
RB: Yeah. I’m very finicky about what I want to do when I graduate, and I always talk to my parents about, I’m like, I don’t know! And it’s really stressful, because I’m a planner, and I like having concrete things that I’m going to do and they’re like, well, you’re so passionate about this, and you can’t stop yourself from talking about it when people ask you and you know, you do all these things and you dedicate a large amount of your time, why not this? So the way I see it going is I would love to be an immigration lawyer, and not one of the ones that helps people get deported, but the ones that fight that. I would like to maybe, in order to sponsor my work, work formally with companies that want to sponsor employees to come work over here, and then that’s like good money, and through that I can do pro bono work with the undocumented community. Other than that, I also was thinking about international law, and I’m doing global studies with a concentration in Latin America, so I think a lot of times if you combat the problems in the countries that cause people to leave, you can solve a lot of the problems that they have right now. That’s what I-I don’t understand, people they’re like-why do people always want to come over here, I don’t understand. You don’t realize how-nobody wants to leave their home, no one wants to leave where their family has been for as long as they can remember, they have to because it’s inhospitable environment. So I think if you can fix that stuff first, you won’t have the problems to begin with, and people can stay in Mexico, because they like it there and it’s their home, and they can have jobs and it’ll be great. But yeah, either of those things, I’d like to do.
HL: Last question. You’ve shared a couple of stories of times where things were hard, things were discouraging, things were disheartening. What’s made you stay? What’s made you want to keep being involved in this work? Is it any particular thing that happened that was really encouraging?
RB: I don’t know, I think working with the Immigrant Youth Forum was amazing because before, we had just been looking at stats or saying oh, undocumented students are facing this. And just talking about it as a large group of people. And that makes it very unpersonal-impersonal, I don’t know. But anyway, so we talked to the Immigrant Youth Forum, and they came out, and we just ate pizza with them and sat down with them for a little while. I was talking and one of the girls-we were asking, we were like, oh, where are you guys applying to college, because a lot of them were seniors. And one of the girls was like, oh, I’m applying to UNC-G, and I’m applying to UNC-Chapel Hill, and all this kind of stuff, and she’ s like, but I’m probably going to have to go to community college. And I was asking her why? And she’s like, well-that was kind of a dense question, now that I think about it, because, I mean, I know why-but she’s like, because my parents can’t afford out-of-state tuition at UNC-G or UNC-Chapel Hill. So just to see her, very, very intelligent person, smarter than I am probably, and the fact that she’s being denied an education based solely on the fact that-where she was born. It seems very ridiculous. And so that made me very upset to think about that, and then also the fact that not that many people know about it. People, like I said, it’s so easy to get absorbed in what you’re doing on campus, but you forget that there are people fighting every single day to try to be where you are, and you take things for granted. Just talking to them just made me remember how lucky I am to be here, and how I want to give other people the chance to do that like me. So that’s really what drives me on, I think. I really, really just-it makes me so upset that they can’t do what they want to do. Education’s been a huge part of my life, without fail I’ve always been the girl that loves school, and so the fact that they’re taking that away from somebody else really bothers me.
HL: Thank you.
RB: Yeah, sure.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Estudiantes; Activistas por la justicia social
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Regan Buchanan discute sus antecedentes familiares, cómo se involucró en temas de inmigración, así como sus experiencias trabajando con la organización Estudiantes Unidos por la Igualdad de los Inmigrantes, en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill este año. Buchanan discute la intersección entre los temas de inmigración y raza, y su posición y antecedentes sociales y familiares, en donde ella no ha tenido que confrontar los temas de raza. Ella discute desde su perspectiva como líder estudiantil los retos de lidiar con la ignoracia y la apatía, así como sus estrategias para entablar conversaciones con diferentes audiencias sobre estos temas. Ella no cree que el movimiento para la reforma migratoria necesite un líder único; más bien ella ve la necesidad de que un grupo central de líderes se levante y motive a los jóvenes que ya están liderando este movimiento. Ella cree que el acceso a la educación es un tema clave en el que deben enfocarse quienes trabajan por la reforma migratoria.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Regan Buchanan por Hetali Lodaya, 14 Abril 2014, R-0682, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Activismo; Ciudadanía e inmigración; Educación; Racismo y discriminación; Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill
Es: Transcripción
Hetali Lodaya: This is Hetali Lodaya, I’m interviewing Regan Buchanan, on April 14th, 2014, on the second floor of the Campus Y. So let’s just start with something really simple, if you can talk about where you’re from, where your family’s from, and sort of your background coming to Carolina?
Regan Buchanan: Okay, sure. So I’m from Raleigh, North Carolina, I’ve lived there since I was two years old, so that’s home for me. My mom and her side of the family are all from rural Kentucky, and my dad’s side of the family, it’s kind of hard to explain, but he and his sister were born in Canada, and everybody else is from Scotland and England. So that’s an interesting dynamic I guess, but he grew up in North Carolina, and moved to Kentucky with my mom, and then they moved back here, and it’s all very complicated. But yeah. That’s a tough question, I guess. But that’s pretty much where my family is from. I always wanted to go to a really great school, and I’ve always been more liberal arts minded, so when I was thinking about places that I could go, I wanted to go somewhere that fulfilled all those requirements. But also I’m a homebody and-and family is very important to me, and so I love that I’m only forty minutes down the road. And UNC is one of the best schools in the country, and it’s a public school, and it’s just so convenient, and so how could you not want to go here? I’m sorry, it was where I was from, where my family is from, and what led me to UNC?
HL: Mhmm.
RB: Yeah, so that’s pretty much it. I’m really happy here.
HL: Cool. Can you tell me a little bit about how you got involved in advocacy work that you do, and immigrant advocacy work?
RB: Sure. I don’t know, I’m a very self-reflective person, so starting, I guess, in high school-I come from rural-a place in Raleigh that’s very conservative, and I used to hear things in my high school, you know how high schoolers are, they always hear things their parents say-and then just regurgitate them at any moment, when there’s like a classroom debate. I heard kids saying things like, oh, well, immigrants, they’re taking our jobs, and immigrants are here and they’re leeching off the system. And I was thinking about that and I said, well, my dad’s an immigrant-and no one ever really complains about him taking-he’s occupying an American job and no one’s complaining. And I was like, oh, it’s because he’s white. So for me it-I realized that immigration isn’t necessarily a problem of origin, more a problem of race. So for me, that just kind of made me very upset, to think that people were using origin as an excuse to just be racist. I-my dad is really good friends with an immigration attorney, and so I interned at his law firm for-just between Christmas break and going back over the year my senior year, and I just really loved-even just going through files and seeing people. And when I went through these files I was seeing just money orders. Like people, like Western Union, sending money to their families. And so like month, month, month, month consistently for years. Then I even saw undocumented people paying taxes. Like tax forms, IRS forms. And I was just thinking to myself, well, they don’t seem like leeches at all to me. In fact, they seem like they’re family oriented just like I am, and they are contributing to this economy. Then also they do jobs-are doing jobs that no one else here wants to do. And so I started forming opinions about immigration earlier. And then I came to UNC and I know that this is a great place for social justice, and I was very excited about the idea of being involved in an immigration reform group. I was at Fall Fest and Pia, our co-chair, was out there, and she had her dog, Louie, who’s the most adorable thing in the world, and I was missing my dog so much, so I went and talked to her. And I started petting Louie, and I saw her sign, and it said for immigration reform, and I was like, oh my gosh! This must be fate. And I signed up, and of course you sign up for a million things at Fall Fest, and that was probably one of the only few that I ended up following through and actually going to the meeting for. So-wow, that was a lot of prepositions in that sentence and it didn’t really make much sense. But anyway, so that was cool. And I went to the meeting, and I heard Emilio and Pia talk, and they were the first undocumented people I had ever met, and I was just like, well, these people have been demonized for me for-like I said, I grew up in a suburb, everybody’s white and middle class, and very ignorant sometimes unfortunately. So I was like, these people are not bad at all, they’re really nice and they’re intelligent and smart and just want to give back to people, just like me. It’s not anything like what I’ve grow up hearing. So that’s what got me excited about it. Then we started on the One State, One Rate campaign. And I just-learning the facts about what immigration is, and just all of the things that are preventing these people from bettering their lives in our state and our country just made me so upset. I cherish education, and the fact that somebody else doesn’t have the opportunity to do the same thing just really unsettled me. So that’s why I got involved.
HL: Sure. What over the course of this year, being involved with SUIE, do you feel like has been one of the biggest challenges, in the work that you all do?
RB: I guess for me one of the biggest challenges was probably a day we stood outside of Lenoir with signs encouraging people to sign our petition for the One State, One Rate campaign. Mostly because I-before that I had been surrounded by only SUIE members when we were doing our work, and by people that were just as passionate about the issue as I was, and I sort of was working under this false pretense that everybody knows that immigration is a big deal, and everybody kind of has general facts, and people are accepting. We got out to Lenoir and it was just very unsettling how many people just didn’t understand what we were talking about, and how many very ignorant things were said, and even at UNC. I was very shocked. Especially-I had a conversation with somebody that I knew, and my roommate was friends with, and he was like, well, immigrants, don’t pay taxes, like, they shouldn’t be here, and blah blah blah. And I tried to give him statistics about it, and he was just like, no. And I was taken aback, I was just like, what do you mean, no, that’s a number, there’s no “no”, there’s no, I have a different opinion, it’s a statistic. Like there’s no-and I was just taken aback by how people just refuse to learn sometimes and refuse to just open their minds to things. And I think that for me was a big challenge and I was very, very discouraged by that day. I remember getting done with it and I went and sat in the library and ate lunch by myself, and I was like, I just need to regroup for a little while and think about things, because it was just really disheartening, how many people just don’t know anything about it. And then a lot of people just don’t care to know anything even when I’m there trying to present them with information. So that was a big challenge for me.
HL: What do you think it will take to get over that, maybe sort of specific to campus or specific to North Carolina?
RB: You know what, that’s a really good question. It’s very frustrating to me, because I feel like a lot of times ignorance is bred because your parents bring you up to believe a certain thing. But then once you get to a certain age, I believe most of us are capable of generating our own thoughts and our ideas, and it’s almost like–it’s self-perpetuated, and I don’t know how you’re going to get over that. I honestly think it has to start with politicians and leaders because they themselves a lot of times contribute to this demonization of immigrants, of this horrible group of people. And again, it’s a highly racialized thing. And that leads to the media as well, you see so many news stories-I think someone at Fox News was comparing immigrant children to Children of the Corn, or something like that, and I was just like-that’s a Stephen King novel, and you’re comparing horror children to-immigrants to horror children. I don’t know, and things like that-because that’s what people see, and that’s what people hear every day. And if they just started presenting real facts to people instead of these dramatized portrayals, then maybe people will start understanding what this issue is. And it’s a human rights problem, it’s not a policy problem. This affects real human lives every day.
HL: Sure. You mentioned a couple of groups of people that you interact with in doing this work. There’s your other SUIE members, there’s other stakeholders, campus community, elected officials, people that touch this issue in different ways. What is it like working with other people to do this work? Are there challenges, are there people that you don’t work with that you wish you did?
RB: I really wish that we could work with the-we could make this a bipartisan issue. Right now we partner with Young Democrats a lot, with events, but I’ve never talked to the campus Republicans-I doubt there’s that many of them anyway. But I really-because like I said, this is-my biggest thing is I like to-I try to portray the immigration issue. It’s not like, I’m not some crazy person that’s trying to just, highly driven by emotion and not by logic, trying to get you to believe what I believe, I’m trying to show you that there’s a reason, economic, moral reasons to reform immigration. And so I wish that we could work-because I think that it could be a bipartisan thing. I wish that there was a way to convince Republicans on this campus, in the legislature, in the country, in North Carolina, to just look at the facts and accept those. And open their minds to what we’re trying to say. Because I think it’s a logical argument. And so that’s really hard, because we don’t work with them. And that’s a challenge. And then also a challenge, what I’ve learned this year is that you can get-you can talk to people, and most people are receptive and they’re like, oh, that’s interesting, oh, that’s cool but there’s a big leap between somebody being receptive to what you’re saying, and being able to get somebody to get up at eight o’clock in the morning and hold a poster with you at a BOT meeting. Or get somebody impassioned about something. That takes a lot more. And there’s a big difference. Like, I would talk to people in Lenoir, and be like, oh, are you interested in signing the petition, or liking us on Facebook, and that’s not hard, and they’d be like, yeah, sure, but I’d be like, would you be interested in coming out to a SUIE meeting at seven or would you be interested in standing out on the South Building when we have a press conference, and that’s just a completely different story. And I just thought that was interesting, how we are-I don’t know, increasingly lazy? I guess, it’s easy to do something through your computer but not get out and show what you care about. I thought that was interesting.
HL: Sure. Do you, in working with other students here around campus, I don’t know if you’ve gotten to interact with students that do this work from other universities, from other parts of the state, do you feel as though everyone is on the same page about how to do this work, how to be advocates for immigrant rights, or are there differences in opinions among different student advocates?
RB: Well, right now, the only student advocates that I’m-we work with as SUIE are satellite campaigns for One State, One Rate at UNC-Charlotte and UNC-Asheville. Because they are mirrored after our own campaign, they are going about things generally the same way that we are. The One State, One Rate campaign initially tried to get Chancellor Folt to endorse in-state tuition for undocumented students. But then we realized that she doesn’t really control that herself, and so now it’s like trying to get legislature to support us. And I think right now- UNC-Asheville and UNC-Charlotte are both trying to get their chancellors on board with what’s going on there. Other than that we haven’t-we don’t have a lot of interaction with other campuses about immigration advocacy.
HL: So you’ve talked a little bit about how it seems to you that a big part of the issue here isn’t immigration per say but it’s more about race.
RB: Yeah.
HL: Do you think it affects your being involved in this work that you-that you are white?
RB: I mean, affects-[pause]-I personally don’t feel, it doesn’t affect me negatively, I don’t-I personally feel like I haven’t encountered a situation in which I’ve been discriminated against because I’m white. But I definitely am a minority whenever we’re working, and that’s an interesting dynamic coming from a white suburb where anyone else but you was ever a minority. I-I worry about that, because if I am to get involved with personally working with immigrant communities in the future, is whether they’ll trust me or not. And I’ve also-people have just like, go ahead and assume that I don’t know Spanish and I speak pretty good Spanish, and I’m working on my minor, and so some things like-especially when I was working at the law firm, like they-I would answer the phone, and be like, buenos días, and they would be like-they obviously can tell that I’m not a native speaker because of my accent, and they would be like, are you sure you know Spanish, before I talk to you about this, and I’m like yeah, we’re okay, I promise. So that’s the one thing I worry about with me being white. But I also think it’s important, because the fact that I’m a co-chair of SUIE shows that this isn’t just a Latin American issue. Like, it’s an everybody issue. Like I said, my dad is Canadian, and he’s an immigrant here, but like I said no one really thinks about that. And there-because it’s such a racialized issue, no one cares about white immigrants here. So I think it’s important to show that it’s a diverse problem.
HL: Specifically talking about within the Latino immigrant community in North Carolina, having folks that are undocumented and having folks that are allies in that movement, what do you see is the role of people maybe who aren’t directly from a particular community, who aren’t undocumented, advocating for and wanting to support their rights and their advancement?
RB: What’s their role? Well, I think, in the undocumented community there’s a lot of fear, of being-of stepping up and being in the spotlight, because they’re always living in fear of being deported. So I think anyone with legal status, their role is to, you know, stand up for them. Because they understandably are afraid to voice their opinions and so as a legal citizen-as somebody like me, who’s born here, or somebody that has a green card, or anyone that has legal status-they need to stand up for the rights of the undocumented. I think that’s their role, is to defend a group that can’t defend themselves, a lot of times.
HL: Sort of a similar question, what do you see as your role as a student advocate in particular for immigration rights?
RB: Well right now I think my-a really big focus of what I’m doing is I just want to share the information and the facts with people that I go to school with. You can ask any of my friends, I talk about this a lot. The big reason for that is I really want my time here to be used effectively, to, you know, change somebody’s mind, and if I can educate four people in a semester about what the real facts about immigration are, then I’d be really happy, because those people are going to get-those people will understand what immigration is, and when it comes time to vote, they will vote for people who are in favor of immigration reform. So right now I think that’s in the smallest-on the smallest scale, I feel like that’s what I do here. Also, when we talk to the Immigrant Youth Forum of Chapel Hill and Carrboro, SUIE collaborates with them a lot, and I want them to know that kids in college especially-I think that a lot of times there is, and rightfully so, there is a stereotype of privileged white kids, like, they don’t really care, they’ve got their ticket. My parents are paying for me to go here, and I haven’t really-I don’t have to work for my tuition, and I want them to know that I haven’t forgotten about people that can’t go here. And so I think that that’s another thing that I want to do while I’m here, is tell those people, I understand that this is hard, and I’m trying to help you. Like, I’m not just going to stick my head in the sand and have my great four years here and forget that there are people trying to fight to be where I am all the time.
HL: Do you think, of all the things that make up immigration reform, whether that’s talking about wages and pay and ability to travel and path to legal status and access to education and tuition in state, is there one piece of this work that you think is more important or that needs to be focused on first?
RB: That’s really tough. Honestly, wages is a big deal-wages are a big deal, but education right now is, I just think it’s crucial. Because without the ability to allow immigrants to have the access to education at an affordable rate, then you’re just keeping people in a cycle of poverty, and what good does that do any of us? So if you look at Alabama for instance, they tried to pass a law that kept immigrants from using any public works, so like even public elementary and middle schools. Now what good are you going to do if you have an entire population of immigrant children that can’t read or write in English, and then they’re going to grow up and they can’t read or write in English? Now what good does that serve any of us? And if you are-allow immigrant people to get educated and-because they want to, of course, they want to better their lives here, if we just give them a chance. So I think if you allow them to get educated, they can go ahead and get jobs that are higher paying, and then also have more weight because they contribute more significantly to the tax base, and then also have more political clout as well, because they’re going to have a higher percentage of-there’s going to be a higher percentage of wealthy Latinos, and thus they’ll be able to influence the political things. So I think honestly if you just give these people the means to make their lives better through education, then I think a lot of it will sort itself out.
HL: And you think that applies to in particular North Carolina as well?
RB: Oh yeah, especially. We were doing research a couple weeks ago, because we were giving a presentation, and I want to say that there-we were talking about the DREAM Act, and how that’s never been passed, and if it were to be passed, there’s a really, really large amount of people that would be eligible for it. And if you factor in that all of these people will graduate from college, or serve in the military, and then go on to get jobs, they would contribute I think three trillion dollars to taxable income in the United States. So it’s-I don’t know, it’s a problem that affects the entire country, but North Carolina specifically, because we don’t even let them have in-state tuition here.
HL: Why did you decide to run for co-chair for SUIE or be a leader in SUIE?
RB: I guess, for me, I’m-I don’t know how to say this without sounding really lazy, but it’s really hard for me to get motivated about things that I don’t care about. So reading for a class, it’s really hard to get myself to do it, or to not procrastinate, and I always found myself very engaged in what SUIE was doing, I never minded going to meetings, I never minded really doing anything to just help out. And I was like, well that means I’m passionate about it, because it’s not a chore. And I just wanted-I want to help this organization succeed. And that’s-I just was like, why not?
HL: And what are you goals for SUIE next year?
RB: I’d like to increase our membership. Right now we have like twenty active members, and we can probably get like fifteen to show up on a good day to a meeting. And that’s really exciting, but I’d like to increase that, and I’d also like to increase the amount of events that we’re able to hold, like I said because we don’t have as many members as another club, a lot of times-or organization-a lot of times it’s hard to get with the-everyone has demanding academic schedules, so it’s hard to get everybody together, or host an event if we’re all busy and there’s only fifteen of us. So I’d love to have more members so that we can have different events, just educational things. We have a couple events where we just hosted people, and we were just like, well we’re going to present you guys with a PowerPoint and then open it up for questions. So that was just a really great dialogue of just educating people and shedding light on the issue, and I feel like I would love to have more events like that, and I think if we have more members, those will definitely be a reality. And I’d also like to work more closely with Immigrant Youth Forum, and just work harder on One State, One Rate, because right now the Attorney General Roy Cooper, over Christmas break he said that as North Carolina law stands right now, there’s no room to give in-state tuition to undocumented students. So we need to go about getting endorsements from other stakeholders. And I’m not exactly sure how we’re going to do that, but it has to happen, so hopefully we can figure out some way to do that next year.
HL: How do you feel when you think about tackling some of these issues, particularly One State, One Rate? How do you feel about what that’s going to be like over the next year, the next couple of years?
RB: It’s a little stressful, because it’s a really big challenge, but it’s also really exciting, and also, working with SUIE, especially just with immigration reform in general, you have to accept the fact that you’re not-you’re not going to change the hearts and minds of people in a year, or two or three or even maybe ten. So for me I was thinking the other day, I was like, well, I mean, not everyone can be a Gandhi, you know? Not everyone can be a Cesar Chavez. But you can be the people that lay the work, lay the footwork for those people, lay the foundation. So when I think about One State, One Rate, I think maybe we’re not going to get in-state tuition in my four years here at Chapel Hill, but if I can start the conversation, and get some politicians in our favor, and change the way that people think about in-state tuition for undocumented students, then maybe in the coming years after I graduate and after I’m gone, then we’ll have some success and some real legislation passed in favor of undocumented students.
HL: Do you think immigration reform in North Carolina or broadly needs a Gandhi or a Cesar Chavez?
RB: You know, I think they need somebody. Like we need to rally around a central person, I feel like. Well, now that I think about it, that’s kind of silly. Because, we’ve got a really large population of undocumented students in North Carolina. But like I said, there’s a culture of fear surrounding that. So I think you need maybe a smaller group of leaders, specifically maybe undocumented leaders, because if they can see that these people are stepping out of the shadows-because that’s what they call it, stepping out of the shadows-stepping out of the shadows and saying we’re not afraid, we’re undocumented, we’re not afraid of being deported, we have to stand up for our rights because this is our home just as much as it is anyone else’s, then we can rally around that. But I don’t think we need one person, we need a group of like ten or twelve.
HL: What do you think it will take to get more undocumented people willing and ready to step out of the shadows?
RB: Well, the younger generation is already making a big jump. Like I said, Immigrant Youth Forum, those are all high school, early college age kids. So younger kids are less afraid because this-we’re beginning to change the conversation about undocumented students. But I don’t know what you’re going to have to do for the older generation, because for them family and being able to provide for your family is everything, and so risking that, for anything, is just unreasonable, and selfish. And so I think for them, they would just rather remain anonymous. We were doing a photo gallery the other day for SUIE and one of our members was taking pictures of local undocumented immigrants with items of significance for them. And you noticed the subjects of the pictures that were younger had no problem with their faces being photographed. But after about the age of 30 or 40, it was just a body picture, no faces. So I just think that they can’t even-they’re afraid of even getting their picture taken. So I’m not really sure about how you would go about changing that. I just think information would be the biggest thing, and then maybe something will happen.
HL: Do you think it is important to or it matters to? Maybe they face of immigrant advocacy by undocumented people in North Carolina is-is youth. Is that okay, or do you need everyone?
RB: Well, it normally starts with youth, doesn’t it. Everything does. But I think that-I mean, one thing I’ve been learning this year is that any movement that has large amounts of success has to have multifaceted areas. So you have to have older people supporting you, you can’t be a bunch of crazy college kids, because that’s exactly how you’re going to be labeled. So if you just have a bunch of 18-years olds like, yes! We need rights! No matter how right you are, the people that are older than you are just going to dismiss it as youthful ignorance. So you need older working class people to stand up and be like, no, they’re right, we agree with that completely. And that doesn’t just stem from undocumented populations. We need people like my parents, conservative older people that live in my suburb to support what we do. Because they’re the people that really hold the power. If a bunch of undocumented people get upset, no one really cares, because they don’t have a vote, they can’t vote, it’s not really that big of a deal. But if you get a bunch of wealthier people in a wealthy suburb of Raleigh to be like no, it’s actually not cool guys, you’re kind of being jerks, then it’s much more significant. So you need support from all sides.
HL: Where do you hear this or feel like you get this impression, that people think you’re just a bunch of crazy college kids, loud college kids?
RB: You know, unfortunately, a lot of times that comes from my family. Not from my parents, they’re very open-minded, but my-like I said, my mom’s side of the family is from rural Kentucky, and they’re wonderful people, I’m certainly not discounting that at all, I love them to death, so great, but they-they come from a different area. And different experiences. And so that lends itself to a different worldview. I think when I first started getting involved with these things that SUIE was doing, they were seeing posts on Facebook and all this kind of stuff, and I came for Thanksgiving and they were like, now, what is this stuff that you’re getting involved in at UNC? Have they liberalized you? What is going on? And I was like, well, first of all, was that way before I came. Second of all, it’s not crazy, and so that just for the most part is what made me think that people were seeing what I was doing as, oh, this is what all college kids do. They get really idealistic at this age and then they graduate and the world hits them and it’s over, but for me this is like a problem that’s going to perpetuate for the rest of my life. Then, thankfully, once I presented the issue to them and the actual facts about everything, they were completely understanding of what I was doing. So it was no longer a crazy college kid phase. It was like oh, she’s actually passionate about a real issue. So that’s like-my family, they’re the greatest people in the world, they just, they have different ways of going about thinking about things when they first hear it, but then they’re completely understanding once they get the real facts about stuff.
HL: Do you think it’s harder to speak to people that you know, family, things like that, or is it harder to speak to strangers?
RB: It’s really hard with your family. Because-I personally, I have a really bad habit of when somebody doesn’t agree with me, I get really mad. So especially when it’s something like this where I have dedicated a lot of my time and I believe it firmly with all my heart-and there’s lots of facts behind me, I know it’s not just some silly thing that I’m believing-and so when somebody’s just like, “no”, I don’t like that. And I know it comes from a place of ignorance instead of from a place of actual facts-that makes me really upset. And I don’t want to be upset with people I love, or people that I have to be around on a regular basis-that’s I think what made it so hard about arguing with that one guy in front of Lenoir that was my roommate’s friend, because I know him and I see him all the time. And now I think he has that bad image of me, and I think when you’re passionate about something, you have to be prepared to turn some people off with your-
HL: Are there things that you think student advocates should be doing or things that you’ve seen SUIE do to try to combat this idea of crazy college kids, to come off maybe as more level-headed or-or is it ok?
RB: To a certain degree, I think it’s fine. You have to be idealistic, otherwise you’re not going to be hopeful and it’s going to be sad and boring. But I-honestly, I don’t think really SUIE gives off the impression that we’re crazy. We don’t do anything like-we’re not like the weatherman or anything like that, where we like give bombs to people, or stuff-I shouldn’t say bombs on this thing, I’m sorry.
HL: It’ll be fine.
RB: I think that we just need to stop-when you’re appealing [pause] to people of the right, conservative side, you need to present facts and statistics and straight hard numbers instead of the moral appeal, because to me, when you’re talking just about morals, that’s when it comes off as, oh, you’re a college kid, what do you know about the world. But if you just give them straight, hard facts, and numbers, that’s something that is going to apply to everything that they do. So that’s I think how you avoid sounding like you’re just this idealistic college kid, is you’re like no, actually, I have this statistics sheet here all ready for you. Throw out some literature. But I don’t know.
HL: Coming off of that, you said something really interesting earlier about you-when you first started working, when you first started interning, you got this sense that these are family people-
RB: Yeah.
HL: -just like I am. And I think one of the values that we associate with the conservative movement or with the Republican Party is this idea of family values. Where do you think that disconnect comes from?
RB: I don’t-I think that, again, I think it boils down to race. For them, family is-it’s not nice to say them-for crazy [pause] very, very right-winged conservatives, I think for them what they say is family values, is, oh, family values for white people. Family values for us. When they think of family values they think of a wife who stays at home and a dad who goes and earns a six-figure salary and brings it back, and then have 2.5 kids and a dog and a white picket fence, and that’s family. They’re stuck in that idea. But when I think Latin Americans or any immigrants, when they think of family, they think of-it’s like a different concept, it’s like your grandmother, your grandfather, your aunts, your uncles, your cousins, this whole inclusive set of people, and they all share this tie to their homeland or to where they live now and it’s all just-it’s very great ,but I think the disconnect arises with the race thing is like oh, I think about, a white family, it’s really cute and has blond kids, but not like a Latin American family or a black family or an Indian family or anything like that. I think that’s a big problem that they have.
HL: Do you think sharing numbers and statistics and very hard facts will change some of those perceptions, and some of that focus on race?
RB: I think it opens the door. Because like I said, a lot of times when you just go in with this really impassioned emotionally driven moral appeal, it’s very easy for people just to shut you out. So if you go ahead with the statistics, that gets people listening, because it’s very calm, it’s very prepared, and it’s very fact-oriented. That way you have more a presentable argument, and then once you’ve got them on that, you say, these people are family people just like you. And then you get them with, you’re a racist, but you say it very casually-just because they’re from Latin America doesn’t mean that their family is less than yours, or something like that. I was talking to my dad the other day, and he’s very conservative, and I was like, you know, dad, if the law-or if for some reason public opinion shifted and Canadian immigrants were now these horrible people like, you wouldn’t be here, you’d be demonized, and how would that feel? Just things like that, trying to relate it as much back to their own experiences is how you get them.
HL: Have you found that it works?
RB: Yeah, absolutely. Like, my parents, they’re both rather conservative-like not crazy, they’re like more middle of the road-and just relating it back to, they value work, very, very-like work ethic, very, very much. And so if you talk about, you know, the immigrant community, they come here and they want to make a better life for themselves. They’re not sitting around, they’re not just trying to leech off the system-which I don’t know how they would do because they don’t have a social security number anyway to apply for welfare-but they say that anyway-but they’re actually working really hard and the jobs they do are not glamorous but they’re trying to make a better life for themselves and their family. And my parents know what that’s like, because they try to do that every day. So if you can find ways to relate what-or know your audience, and relate your issue to what is special for them, then a lot of times they’re more accepting to what you have to say. Because that gets my parents a lot, is they’re working really hard.
HL: Sure. What skills have you found to be most important to have as a student advocate or that you think will be most important over the next couple years?
RB: Well, communicating is really important, just because you understand an idea doesn’t mean that somebody else will. So you have to be able to communicate things in a very relatable way, like I was just talking about, or in a very clear and concise manner. Also, nobody likes to sit and listen to tons of legal jargon about the different bills that are passed, so keep it short and simple. Also, I think being calm when you’re arguing with people, because you’re not going to win anybody over by calling them a dick and running away. So that’s important. And then…
HL: Any things that you think are particular to North Carolina or to working at UNC, even?
RB: Working at UNC… I mean, I think that you have to understand that-I love this place so much, and there’s a really great network of people willing to help you if you just give them-like I said, if you just give them the facts and tell them why your issue is important. So just don’t be afraid to ask for help, some of our best events have come from collaborations with CK, or one time we worked with the Indian sorority on campus, and that was really wonderful, and they came from unexpected friendships, and people are willing to listen to what you have to say, just ask for them to do that, and that’s how you’re very successful.
HL: Do you think that that’s how you might approach this over the next couple of years and that the best strategy is about making this about more people than just the Latino community, or just the undocumented community? Do you just bring everybody under the umbrella?
RB: Yeah, I completely agree with that, because like I said, it’s really easy for people to get wrapped up in their own lives, and that’s through no fault of their own, we’re very self-oriented creatures, but if you show people how this affects them and how this affects people like them, then it makes it much more of an impactful issue. So like I said, that’s why I think it’s also important-this sounds weird-but the fact that I’m white helps SUIE a little bit, because it’s like, oh, there’s somebody that’s not Latino that’s worried about immigrants, like that’s-why? And then they’re interested in why I care. Which is kind of bad, but also I can use it to my advantage, I guess.
HL: How do you think other people in SUIE feel about what you just-what you just articulated?
RB: I don’t know, I haven’t really talked to them about it. I don’t-I think race is such a tricky thing that everybody just likes to avoid it. I always feel very uncomfortable because, like I’ve said numerous times here, I come from a just a majority white area, and so if I-I feel uncomfortable talking about race because I’m afraid I’m going to offend people, because I’ve just not been around it where the dialogue is very-like it happens frequently, so I just like, I’m afraid that I’m going to say something and people will be like, ahhh! So we haven’t really talked about it. I don’t think that they view me as any different than they are. And there-we have-like there are different races represented in our group of people, which is good, I think. I don’t really think that they-we haven’t had really a conversation about it.
HL: Do you think it’s important for the advocacy community to bring up this topic more? So you’ve talked about how you feel like in some ways, the issue is not as much immigration status as it is race. Do you think that it’s important to make that a part of the public dialogue about the issue of immigration?
RB: I wouldn’t use that as a the forefront of your argument, because then you’re going to make people really upset, because nobody wants to be called a racist, so I think that the best way is to be really sneaky about it, like I was talking about before, and you really just start with tax reasons. And then go for moral appeals and then after that you hit the race card. Because, like I said, nobody wants to be called a racist. That’s not going to make anybody happy.
HL: How do you see yourself continuing to be involved in this work? After being a student, is it something you want to keep doing?
RB: Yeah. I’m very finicky about what I want to do when I graduate, and I always talk to my parents about, I’m like, I don’t know! And it’s really stressful, because I’m a planner, and I like having concrete things that I’m going to do and they’re like, well, you’re so passionate about this, and you can’t stop yourself from talking about it when people ask you and you know, you do all these things and you dedicate a large amount of your time, why not this? So the way I see it going is I would love to be an immigration lawyer, and not one of the ones that helps people get deported, but the ones that fight that. I would like to maybe, in order to sponsor my work, work formally with companies that want to sponsor employees to come work over here, and then that’s like good money, and through that I can do pro bono work with the undocumented community. Other than that, I also was thinking about international law, and I’m doing global studies with a concentration in Latin America, so I think a lot of times if you combat the problems in the countries that cause people to leave, you can solve a lot of the problems that they have right now. That’s what I-I don’t understand, people they’re like-why do people always want to come over here, I don’t understand. You don’t realize how-nobody wants to leave their home, no one wants to leave where their family has been for as long as they can remember, they have to because it’s inhospitable environment. So I think if you can fix that stuff first, you won’t have the problems to begin with, and people can stay in Mexico, because they like it there and it’s their home, and they can have jobs and it’ll be great. But yeah, either of those things, I’d like to do.
HL: Last question. You’ve shared a couple of stories of times where things were hard, things were discouraging, things were disheartening. What’s made you stay? What’s made you want to keep being involved in this work? Is it any particular thing that happened that was really encouraging?
RB: I don’t know, I think working with the Immigrant Youth Forum was amazing because before, we had just been looking at stats or saying oh, undocumented students are facing this. And just talking about it as a large group of people. And that makes it very unpersonal-impersonal, I don’t know. But anyway, so we talked to the Immigrant Youth Forum, and they came out, and we just ate pizza with them and sat down with them for a little while. I was talking and one of the girls-we were asking, we were like, oh, where are you guys applying to college, because a lot of them were seniors. And one of the girls was like, oh, I’m applying to UNC-G, and I’m applying to UNC-Chapel Hill, and all this kind of stuff, and she’ s like, but I’m probably going to have to go to community college. And I was asking her why? And she’s like, well-that was kind of a dense question, now that I think about it, because, I mean, I know why-but she’s like, because my parents can’t afford out-of-state tuition at UNC-G or UNC-Chapel Hill. So just to see her, very, very intelligent person, smarter than I am probably, and the fact that she’s being denied an education based solely on the fact that-where she was born. It seems very ridiculous. And so that made me very upset to think about that, and then also the fact that not that many people know about it. People, like I said, it’s so easy to get absorbed in what you’re doing on campus, but you forget that there are people fighting every single day to try to be where you are, and you take things for granted. Just talking to them just made me remember how lucky I am to be here, and how I want to give other people the chance to do that like me. So that’s really what drives me on, I think. I really, really just-it makes me so upset that they can’t do what they want to do. Education’s been a huge part of my life, without fail I’ve always been the girl that loves school, and so the fact that they’re taking that away from somebody else really bothers me.
HL: Thank you.
RB: Yeah, sure.
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-0682 -- Buchanan, Regan.
Description
An account of the resource
Regan Buchanan discusses her family background, how she got involved in immigration issues, as well as her experiences working with Students United for Immigrant Equality at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill this year. Buchanan discusses the intersection of immigration issues and race, and her own position as someone coming from a social and family background where she often does not have to confront issues of race. She discusses the challenges of addressing ignorance and apathy as a student advocate, as well as her strategies for engaging various kinds of audiences with these issues. She does not believe that the immigration reform movement needs one overarching leader; rather, she sees the need for a core group of leaders to step up and motivate the youth who are already at the forefront of this movement. She thinks that access to education is a key issue that those who work for immigration reform should be focusing on.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
14 April 2014
Format
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R0682_Audio.mp3
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/19870">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/d1f1e38fb5e5ed618752ea0737a644b4.mp3
ff276cd8f30be40f235a18901b376f26
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/b595ab4bc63ff9c1e5da4a578ead0e25.pdf
f64b8dac0b2ca84018aa7d6bd9758384
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0687
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
26 February 2014
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Granados, Cristina.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Educators
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Manizales -- Department of Caldas -- Colombia
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Sanford -- Lee County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-75.51326499999999 5.067171999999999),1977,1;POINT(-79.18029939999997 35.4798757),2004,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Arriaga, Felicia.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Cristina Granados describes immigrating to the United States through the Visiting International Faculty Program. She obtained a bachelors degree in Colombia where she also taught in a university level psychology department. Cristina describes the price of immigrating, but says that the support from the church community and her students has made her transition easier. Cristina began teaching Spanish as a Foreign Language and then moved to English as a Second Language. She describes how Sanford has changed over the course of her teaching career. She describes in-depth her relationship with her students and their families. She talks extensively about the issues her students face: rejection, discrimination, family re-unification, gang and drug violence. She also highlights her role as a teacher liaison with the Scholar’s Latino Initiative Program housed at The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Cristina Granados by Felicia Arriaga, 26 February 2014, R-0687, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/19858
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
K12 education; Migratory experience; Social networks; Racism and discrimination; War and violence
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Felicia Arriaga: My name is Felicia and today is February 26th, 2014. I am here at Lee County High School in Sanford, North Carolina and I am here with a teacher at this school and her name is Cristina Granados. Is that correct?
Cristina Granados: Yes.
FA: Ok. And to begin with I just want to ask you--actually--hold on just a second, sorry. [Checking recorder] Ok. So the first question I want to--. So, I’m sitting here with Cristina Granados and she is an ESL teacher here at Lee County Middle--Lee County High School. So, I wanted to ask you first, when--. Where were you born and when did you actually come to this country?
CG: Ok. Hi, thank you for coming.
FA: [Laughter]
CG: Well, I was born in Manizales, this is a small city in the Southwest of my country, Colombia. But actually I grew up in Bogotá that is the capital city. And I went to this county ten years ago with an exchange teacher program.
FA: Oh, ok, very nice. And so how long were you here with that program?
CG: It was a three year program.
FA: Ok.
CG: Then I met my husband and I got married and I decided to stay here.
FA: Ok, great, great. And how often do you--? Do you get to go back to Colombia very often?
CG: Well actually my family--.Well I come from a family of immigrants, everybody immigrates, so my family lives in Europe, in Spain.
FA: Oh, ok, great.
CG: So, I visit more often Spain than Colombia.
FA: Oh ok.
CG: I think the last time I went to Colombia was back in 2008.
FA: Oh ok, so it’s been a while.
CG: So it was a long time ago but I try to visit my family in Spain every two years.
FA: Oh ok, great, great. Are you the only one of your siblings--? Do you have siblings and are you the only one in your family here?
CG: Yes, here in the United States I’m by myself. I mean I have like cousins; I have a couple of cousins that live in Florida and then my other cousin lives in Toronto, Canada. My nephew is moving to Houston, Texas, I think next month.
FA: Ok, so there will be a few other people here.
CG: Yes a few but actually I am by myself here or I feel like that.
FA: And how do you feel about that? How long--? You said you’ve been here for 10 years?
CG: Ten years.
FA: Ten years or so.
CG: Well it’s very hard. It’s a high price that you have to pay. If you--. When you immigrate, you don’t imagine how hard it is to live here. I mean you have a great life here, you have a better opportunity, you have many things you didn’t even imagine when you were in your country but the price that you have to pay is very high. I mean emotionally it hurts a lot to be by yourself when you need support or when you need somebody who loves you or who says ‘everything is going to be good.’ It’s very hard, it’s really hard.
FA: Yeah, for sure, for sure. And how--? Do you--? I guess do you talk to your family a lot then, since you said it’s pretty hard?
CG: Well, basically the communication is not very often with them. Well now we have these What’s App thing.
FA: Oh, ok. [Laughter]
CG: You know technology. But it’s kind of--. It’s--. I don’t know, you are so busy here that you cannot even call your family, you know, very often. I mean on the weekends we are crazy busy and I have to do many things. And this is one point and the other point is that the time is different.
FA: Ok, yeah.
CG: In Spain where my family lives is six hours ahead. So it’s kind of hard because when here it’s six o’clock, the time I’m available, there it is midnight. So yeah, the communication is not very often either.
FA: Ok. So when you came ten years ago, did you feel, besides your husband, was there--another--was there more of a community that you felt comfortable with?
CG: Oh, yes. Absolutely. I have found a lot of generous people here and many people in the church, I’m very involved with the community in the church. But actually, my best support emotionally here have been my students. They have been like my family always.
FA: Great, great.
CG: Actually, they are the reason I decided to stay. Because I just found out that they needed a lot of support. I was just dealing with all their horrible experiences when they came, and they passed through horrible situations, and usually they come here to meet some parents that they haven’t seen for years. And they are completely estranged from them. They are living with somebody who they don’t know and they have a lot of problems. Basically, my job here has been more giving them emotional support and showing them different ways to deal with all the things they have to deal with here. It’s not just the language barrier, it’s everything. It’s the societies, the communities, a complete new world without support because their families are always very busy. They come from families who work the whole day and sometimes even the nights so they are by themselves dealing with all of these emotional problems they have. Because you know I work with teenagers, they are passing through a difficult age and they have to deal with everything themselves with basically no support by the families so I try--in any way try--to supply this need.
FA: Do you get support from other teachers here at this school too or do you feel like you have to take a lot of that on by yourself?
CG: [Pause] Well actually there are some teachers that try to give them support but it’s kind of difficult because when you are working with a special program like ESL or students with special needs, all the responsibility is given to you. So they support them in some cases but mostly to solve their academic issues, learning problems or things like that. But when we are talking about their emotional situation--it’s just--there is almost nobody who can help them or try to support them. And the other point is that they are not able to express their emotions or their problems in English because they are not native English speakers. So, they are just a few people who are bilingual here and they are so busy just trying to, you know, do their jobs in different areas, that all the responsibility is given to me.
FA: Ok, and so are you the only ESL teacher here?
CG: Yes. I am the only one and we have--I have 187 students in the program and I am in charge of all of them.
FA: Wow. And how often--? Do you see all of them every day?
CG: Well [Laughter], no basically I have some groups that are in my class, ESL class but we are talking about twenty to thirty students. The other students are called SIOP classes, sheltered classes and they are only for Hispanic students and I have--am--co-teaching some of those classes and I am giving all the support I can to those students. This moment, this semester, we have eight classes, SIOP classes.
FA: And can you spell SIOP for me?
CG: It’s S-I-O-P. Those are sheltered instruction that means they have special methodologies to facilitate the learning of the content but at the same time facilitate the learning of the language. It’s both together at the same time. So in the co-teaching classes is what we do, I am the specialist in language so I work on all the vocabulary stuff, prior knowledge, building vocabulary, building background think, and the teacher works on the content area stuff. So we work together and we help them in this way.
FA: And these are all in English?
CG: Yeah, everything in English. I give them some support because--. I am trying--. We are trying to use the native language of the student, the Spanish, I mean as less as we can because we want them to be immersed in English context the whole time, it’s better for the learning process. However, I am giving them the support in their native language too, yeah, I use Spanish.
FA: How much interaction do you have with parents? I know you mentioned before that some of them may have little interaction with their parents but how often do you see them?
CG: Unfortunately, it is not very often. However, they are--. I am very involved with them because whenever they are on travels, they call me.
FA: Oh, ok.
CG: [Laughter] So as soon as there is a situation that they cannot handle or whenever they need information about an immunization, meetings or behavioral problems or anything, they call me. And actually, I’m just like the bridge between the teachers that don’t speak Spanish and the Hispanic students. So I handle all the phone calls for them and just try to be like the communication--the bridge--for the two cultures.
FA: Oh, ok. And do you see that the children sometimes are also bridging that? So you might be doing that between the different teachers but do the children have to do that as well?
CG: Yes, yes. They have to do that as well. Yeah, but actually--. Here at this school, we usually don’t do that because it is better to have an adult saying what’s going on. [Laughter] You know what I mean, they are always very smart so they can translate just the things that they think they have to. But in other situations in their lives, they are actually the support of their families. Actually, the families have high expectations for them. They say, ‘Well I brought you here and I want you to learn English and now it’s your responsibility to communicate, to be like my communication person.’ Okay. They have to deal with everything, paying bills, going to the doctor, translating for them in every situation outside the school and sometimes it is hard for them.
FA: I would imagine it would be. And so, do you--? Do y’all have parent nights where parents come in?
CG: Yes, we have a parent night every semester, Latino parent nights and we just have these meetings. They are not very--. Unfortunately the Latino community they don’t have this culture of just ‘let’s just go to school’ and communicate and see what’s going on with my child. They even, they have the opportunity to check the grades of their students online and they don’t use it. They just don’t know how to use it or they don’t have time. I think time is just a huge issue to deal with here, the parents just don’t have time for the kids and, but, how often do we meet? It’s once, exclusively with Latino parents it’s just once per semester, we call it Latino parent night and we have the open house but the participation of the Latino community in the open house is almost zero, out of twenty students you’ll have one or two parents in each group.
FA: Okay. And how big is the Latino student population?
CG: We are talking about thirty to thirty five percent Latino population.
FA: I want to get back to a little bit about your exchange program and how you ended up --. Did you actually come to Sanford or were you somewhere else?
CG: No, I actually came from Colombia to Wilson, North Carolina. I was teaching English--Spanish--first to the English speakers for three years and when I got married, my husband has a house here and when I came to Sanford I started working as an ESL teacher, teaching the Latino population.
FA: Okay and which one of those do you feel more comfortable with? What are the pros and cons [Laughter]?
CG: Absolutely, I love ESL [Laughter]. I love it. You can imagine the work, the huge amount of things that you have to do with those kids. You can imagine how hard is their situation and how they need support of somebody. They are eager to know that someone is interested in what is going on with them. They are looking for information about anything, they are lost when they first came here, everything is new for them, they are lost and they feel like if they are not going to make it. And they need somebody who says, ‘everybody can and hey, you are going to do it.’ And helping them, well you are like our mother and I say, ‘yes, of course I am.’
FA: [Laughter]
CG: Yeah, because most of my students have their mother in Mexico or in another country and their parent, the father, who is the person who usually immigrates, just, you know they have to save money to bring them here. But, usually they have a new family here and so those kids are the new person in that family. So they are not welcome all the time and we have to deal with this every day and that’s the reason because I love my job. Because what I’m doing is not just trying to teach them English but trying to support them, trying to just open a new life for them and try to teach them it’s not as terrible as it looks and they are going to do it if they put all the effort.
FA: That’s great, that’s great. It sounds like you do a lot. [Laughter]
CG: Yes, I am doing a lot.
FA: How do you--. I guess, how are you able to do all those extra things, I’m just trying think about what your time in the classroom looks like? Is it spent a lot on instruction or do you find that you have to really take care of a lot of both the instruction of the ESL classes and the SIOP classes or is it that your students are coming after school. How much interaction, I guess, do you have with them?
CG: Actually, during my planning period which is my third block. I have a lot of students here. They have different times for their lunch; actually we have three lunches here. And during my planning they are coming all the time, even during their regular classes they ask for permission and teachers know and they say, ‘if it’s to Ms. Granados, you can go.’ Because they know there is something going on and that I am trying to help them with a situation that most of the time is kind of hard for them to deal with. During my planning time, during lunch time, after school, and even during the weekends sometimes. Yeah, if they have--. They love when they invite you to their parties, like fifteen birthday parties [laughter] and I say ‘yes.’ [Points at file cabinet full of mementos, picture is included]
FA: I was wondering what all those were when I walked in.
CG: All of those are just like, you know, the little souvenirs that they give you. And when my students have won soccer [Pause] championships, they bring me the trophies.
FA: That’s great.
CG: And they are my former students.
CG: So the interactions continue. We are like a family. Actually with experience, you know, you learn how to deal with your time. This is the point here is to learn to distribute your time in the way that you can deal with everything that you have to but mainly pay attention to the emotional part of the student, pay attention to the person and not just like a student because they really, really need a lot of attention.
FA: I’m interested in how do you--? How do you actually counsel them or how do you go about helping them express their emotions and really talking about that? And do you feel your own experience as an immigrant helps with that?
CG: I have been trying to be a role model for them and my first point here is to respect them a lot. As far as I respect them, if I show them respect, they respect me so you build a, you know, a very good relationship. So you respect me, I respect you. And I have examples for them, actually [turns towards the file cabinet] this little cup from Puerto Rico, you see the Puerto Rico flag? He was an ESL student and now he is in Japan. He’s in the American Air Force, I’m so proud of him, he’s a pilot. And I said ok, ‘if my student, who was an immigrant like you when he came here from Puerto Rico, he didn’t know any English, like you. He was as scared as you. And now he’s in Japan, he’s in the American Air Force.’ I give them examples of students that were successful and everything, I just invite the student and I say, ‘ok, just tell your story to those kids. And I ask them how did you feel.’ And they did a great job and said, ‘Well, I was really scared, I was crying, I was--. I had this and this and this problem. But I did it, I overcame all the obstacles. I had to have determination and work hard and I had to believe in myself.’ Because just building self-esteem is a very hard thing but once they got it, they do a great job. Self-esteem is the point here too.
FA: That’s great. [Pause] How do you--? I know that you said you’ve been here for almost 13--10--years and you said you visit your family a lot in Spain but do you feel like this has become your home?
CG: Well in some way yeah. I love this country; this country gave me a lot of things. This country gave me a lot of things that I didn’t have in my life, like security, a safe place to live. I think as immigrants or about my personal experience as an immigrant, what I was looking for was not money or you know, like economic position. I was looking for safety because I come from a country that is very violent so you never know what could happen there. And that’s the reason why we all immigrated, my whole family. They went to Spain and my sister went to France and I came here. And, yes, actually I don’t know if this is a place I can call home, I think it is, I feel like an adopted child. [Laughter] I don’t think the United States thinks I’m her daughter, I’m her adopted daughter and I’m trying to be a good girl here. And one day they are going to, ‘ok, I love this adopted child as if she were mine.’ But it’s kind of [Pause] hard to leave your country because you really love your country but when there are not conditions to live your life there and there is another country that give you those--these--opportunities you just don’t think about it. I am very, very grateful with this country. I think it’s a wonderful place to live.
FA: Great, great. How do your students feel about it? And how do they feel about their move? And you talked a little bit about some of their challenges with moving, particularly if their family has already been here for a while, so how do you--? Are they--? Do they feel happy here or are most--some--of them trying to figure it out?
CG: Well, they, they really don’t like it. When I ask them, “do you like the country, are you excited about being here?’ They say, ‘absolutely not.’ They feel rejected, they feel discriminated. They feel--.
FA: In what ways?
CG: In many ways. They think people don’t like them because they don’t speak English. They think people don’t like them because they are Brown and many people call them Wetbacks or beaners or other things like that. And they think they are like in a [Pause] they are in a different world, they think that people just take them away put them in a different place where they are together but no one else is there, like in a ghetto. And it’s in the beginning when they first come in, they feel all of this rejection and I don’t think it’s rejection, it’s lack of communication. When they cannot communicate, they feel that nobody likes them but it’s not real, it’s just the feeling that they have because they don’t have cannot establish any communication with nobody here. And then when they have their family, I mean my former students, they feel that this country is their country. They have their children, they get married, they go to college and then they feel they are welcome here and then they understand that this is a process that they have to pass through. But at the beginning it is very hard, they just don’t like it. They say--. They say, ‘this is boring,’ they just don’t like us, we don’t like them. This is violent, they think they are not going to make it, they think it’s not fair, the system is not fair with them is the reason. Because they feel they are discriminated and they say, ‘well why do we have to pass through all of this if we don’t speak English and why don’t we have like special grading and why do have to do exactly like the other students have to do?’ And I say, ‘well that’s the way it is. We came to a different country and they have their country and they have their rules, we have to follow the rules.” But for a teenager it’s very hard to get that. They usually don’t like it at all.
FA: So do you think they feel that way in the schools or also in the community? And in their homes?
CG: I think in the schools and in the community and in their house too. Because as I told you; they come to a new home where the parents, mom or dad, has another family. So they are like intruders here, they have their children here and the children speak English and the one that just came doesn’t do it so it’s kind of hard for them. Usually they have a really difficult relationship with the stepmothers or stepfathers and you have these [Pause] problems, and they are all the time, you have to deal a lot with the problems and try to just help the students to adapt to the new situation and also helping the parents because it’s hard for the parents too. It’s difficult for them to deal with a teenager that has been growing with the grandparents and doing whatever they want in their country and then they come here and they have rules here, you cannot do whatever you want here. And this is something they don’t like it.
FA: And you mentioned something about some of your students saying it was violent. Can you explain a little bit about what you meant?
CG: Well, yes. [Pause] Usually they have to deal with drugs, drug dealers and gangs. And its bullying, it’s also usual. And so it’s really hard for them to deal with that. Usually they have to just deal with all of this stuff from the beginning when they came because the new students are the ones that are more vulnerable.
FA: Are there programs in the school that they are actively trying to counter some of those things? So like an anti-bullying campaigns or something?
CG: Not really, no. I was trying to do something. Actually, in my classes I tried to do--. I was--. I just remembered that I was working in a program, it was called TOP, T-O-P and in this program I was working on that. I usually talked to them about drugs, and gangs, and STDs, and pregnancy and all of these things. Unfortunately they did not give me more of the support to do that. It was with the Coalition of Families of Lee County, but they say, ‘No you cannot do it anymore, you have to have a special instruction.’ It’s a pity because we were talking about many things with that and I think it was very useful for the students. It’s a pity they don’t have it anymore.
FA: So they don’t have the program at all or they were just saying that you had to be certified to do it?
CG: Yeah, yeah. They said I have to have a special training and it was very expensive for them to pay for it and they said it was like $800. I was doing it for free, I wasn’t charging. I was just doing it by myself and doing the program for free. Yeah, I didn’t get paid for that. And here in the school, it’s not like any specific campaigns, or things like advertisements or things like that against these kinds of things because I think in high school they consider that those issues are not very common in the school. You know what I mean? They consider it is a middle school or elementary school program but I don’t think it’s very true.
FA: So then how are they dealing with some of those issues?
CG: They have to you know just listen and see and keep your mouth shut. It’s very difficult to, you know, help them in a very direct way. You know what I mean. I am a teacher here and all that I can do is to listen and when there is something really hard, I have to, my duty is to just go ahead and talk about that. But it’s hard to do it when you don’t have the time to maybe collect proof and I don’t have the time to do that. But actually I have seen my students scared and they have been beaten in the classroom or something and they don’t say a word. But then they say, ‘Ms. I will tell you what happened but please don’t say.’ Because it is worse. It’s going to be worse for them later. [Pause]
FA: So, you do deal with a lot. [Laughter]
CG: Well I think this life is kind of complicated, and it’s not easy but it is very rewarding. I love it because most of my students pass through all of this and they do good and then I see them in college. That’s my reward, I’m happy and they send me the pictures of their babies [turns towards bulletin board with photos]. And when they get married and get their citizenship, they send me the pictures. And they invite me to their baptisms of the kids. We are, we are like a family.
FA: [Laughter] So this is like your new family, your extended family.
CG: Yeah, it’s kind of an extended family, a big family. I have a lot of grandchildren. [Laughter] Like twenty something and it’s growing and growing.
FA: I wanted to ask you a little bit more about how you first got into teaching and the education system in general?
CG: Well in my country, I studied a bachelor’s degree in English and Spanish. Then I did some specializations in my country too. That was--. Well actually, it was an educational career like here; it was five years, five years in my country. I get this bachelor’s degree and then I applied, they did this advertisement about the VIF program. And I just, ‘well why not, let’s try’ and I get it. It was an interview and you have to have teaching experience and certain qualities and things. But my--. I learned my English in my country and it was a Bachelor’s degree in English, it was for five years.
FA: Then the VIF program was the exchange program to come here?
CG: Yes, that was the exchange program. Then I came here back in 2001 and then I was teaching there for these three years. But in my country I was teaching when I was in the university, you can do this there. [Laughter] You can do everything there. So I was teaching since I was, I think, in the second semester of the university. So they said, ‘ok we pay you at half money.’ And I say, ‘ok’ and I had previous experience for about nine years before coming here. So I started really, really young and actually when I came, when I immigrated from Colombia, I was teaching at a university there too, after I did the major, the specialization, I got a job in the university, I was teaching English in the psychology faculty, it was fascinating. I love psychology, I think I am a frustrated psychologist because I really love it.
FA: Great. So you’ve been at this school for ten years?
CG: Ten.
FA: So, have you seen the Latino population increase over that time?
CG: Oh, yes, yes.
FA: Can you describe that a little bit?
CG: Oh yes, yes. Well, at the beginning when I just came here we had a population of about 27 or 28 but now we have a population of about 37. So it’s growing a lot, we have a lot of teenagers and a lot coming from the middle schools. And actually after the DREAM Act thing, Affirmative Action I think they call it.
FA: Deferred Action?
CG: Yes, Deferred Action. They have been immigrating just more often. I know now its more difficult, it’s been very difficult to immigrate. As a matter of fact, last month we have three new students; three new students coming. It’s like wow and this semester we have had like seven. And when I say new students I mean newcomers, people who came to this country for the first time. Because sometimes you have students that come from a different country but have been here for a long time but newcomers-about seven. Those are people with zero English that come to this country for the first time. That is amazing. I think they are, I don’t know. The population is growing really, really fast here in North Carolina and I have seen the statistics and this is what they say too. The population is growing but I think it is wonderful because if you compare Sanford--the Sanford-- that I found when I came ten years ago and the Sanford we have now, there is no point of comparison. I mean the growth of the city, the economy. When I came here, there were only two car dealers and now we have like seven or eight. And we have an increase in the real estate business and the grocery stores and everything and if you go and see who are the customers, the Latino population is the main. I mean if you go to a restaurant and I think it’s a very--. I mean I was talking to my husband, my ex-husband and he has been here for about eighteen years, and he said ‘well you can imagine how was this town was before the Latino population. It was like, it was a small town with nothing to do, no business.’ And in the last ten years maybe, we are talking about the last eight to ten years, the growing has been incredible and it’s mostly because of the Latino immigration, I think.
FA: And is there any--. You talked a little bit about with the students, when they first get here they feel discriminated, or alone in certain ways. Do you see that there’s any like discrimination from the community? You were explaining a little bit about the growth of the community but do you see any, I guess, anti-immigrant sort of things going on here?
CG: Feelings? Well, I think it’s not just here; it’s in the whole country. After the economy crashed, the government, the presiding government, it was an anti-immigrant feeling I think in the whole country. Because well I, I understand that, they need somebody to point. I don’t think it’s an anti-immigrant attitude; it’s just a [Pause] lack of communication, lack of establishing a real exchange of productive ideas for sharing. And most of this is because there are barriers; the language barrier, the cultural barrier. Many things that are kind of difficult to overcome. It’s not an anti-immigrant situation, it’s isolation, I would say, it’s lack of communication.
FA: One thing I wanted to ask you more about, because you are one of the teacher liaisons with the SLI program at UNC, when did that partnership start? How did that begin?
CG: Oh, I’m so glad, I’m so glad I’m working with this. It was back in 2000 and six or seven, no it was later, I think it was like in 2010. Actually there was a teacher, her name was Deborah Wilkes, and she was the person that started the program here in Lee County. Then she resigned, she got another job in a different county and she said, ‘well, you want to do it.’ And I said, ‘yeah, I would love it.’ And I started working on this and I am so glad. It has been a wonderful experience. I think they are doing a lot for the students, it’s not just the scholarships, it’s just the self-esteem. And they are giving them confidence, a lot of self-confidence, they are giving them support, tutoring. They are showing them a different world; they are showing them that there are many opportunities waiting for them. So I am so glad to see students that are in UNC, students that won scholarships that were my students, oh my god. I am very, very grateful for that because I am working hard on this and even with this stuff that I have to do this is something that is very, very important. This is the way that we start, we have been working on this--. I think that at the beginning, since it was a relatively new program, they were just trying to see how to do things better but now they are consolidating. They are having policies, very specific policies and I think it is very good for the students. I think they are doing a good thing for the students.
FA: The students enjoy it?
CG: Oh yes, they feel so proud. Every time when I, when they start the registration or the application process, I have a lot of students begging [Laughter], ‘I want to do it, please, please.’ And I say, ‘ok, I will do my best.’ But there are always more applications waiting, on standby because they want to do it because they listen to the other students and they see that they get to go to the university. And UNC-Chapel Hill is a very prestigious place and so they say, ‘please, I want to participate.’ And I say, ‘well, you have to earn it.’ I am grateful, last year for the first time they accepted two students that were in my class. That means, their proficiency in English were very low but they were very hard working students and I said, ‘please give them the opportunity’ because one of the requirements is to be completely fluent in English. And I said, ‘please give them the opportunity because they want to do it.’ They are two of the best students in the program, they just come in and they are remaining and they are working hard. Actually, after they enrolled in SLI, the next semester they exited the ESL program. So they were at proficiency level and I said, ‘see, I told you, you wouldn’t regret.’ I’m so proud of those kids because they have the level they require for that and they did it with hard work. They were in this country for about two years, they only had one year of ESL.
FA: That’s awesome.
CG: Yes it is. They have very good expectations; they have very good long-term education goals. And I know they are going to do it, I am positive.
FA: That’s great. That’s great. [Pause] I think I have a couple more questions for you. You answered a lot of what I wanted to know about how you support the students and some of the challenges you face, I think, on a daily basis. Do you feel overwhelmed and is there ever--is there--a way for you to get help if you are overwhelmed?
CG: Yes, I have the support of my, of the central office of education, I have a wonderful ESL team. My boss is a wonderful person and the director of the program, Dr. Warren, is wonderful. Mrs. Mills who is the coordinator of the teachers, is wonderful. And they have the requirement that makes everything possible and it’s that they love those kids. They love those kids. They really put all their heart into them. And I think that’s the number one requirement, if you don’t teach with love, if you don’t love those kids, if you don’t believe in them, if you don’t trust them, there is nothing to do.
FA: Do you get to meet with the team a lot and how many ESL teachers are there?
CG: Actually, we have like, I can’t say exactly the number, but like twenty something and we have some teacher assistants too. Well, we meet every month and we just share experiences and they are very similar at all the levels. At elementary school you listen to the same stories, in middle school the same stories, and in high school, exactly the same. Actually, the profile of all the ESL teachers in the program is very similar. We have to keep in mind that they must need the support and be appreciated and feel--build--self-esteem and self-confidence. Show them to success in this world and this society. It is a very good thing to work with, we are pretty busy all the time but I think we are doing good, at least we are doing our best. I know that.
FA: I think it’s good that y’all have that time to be with each other and really talk about the successes and challenges at the same time.
CG: Yes, happy stories and sad stories and everything. It’s wonderful.
FA: That’s great. That’s great. So, I think one of the last questions I have, how do you--. For the students you are working with, the ones that are successful, are there--. I guess I’m trying to think about this. Are there other programs? I can’t remember the name of them: SIOP, some of them do the Scholar’s Latino Initiative. I was wondering about other support systems other than coming to you, specifically for Latino students? How have they been able to be successful?
CG: Well. Actually we, here in the school, we don’t have a like a counselor being a specialist in finding opportunities for the Latino population specifically so we have to do by ourselves. All the process for applying for scholarships, for applying for college, getting a-you know-just like doing the classes, taking the correct classes, and things like that has been done through the ESL counselor that is also a Latino person, from Argentina. I’m doing everything I can and also the central office helps too. I don’t know exactly a program but if they know about a scholarship, they know about a seminar or program for Latino students, they are always looking for that. Actually, I think next month they are going to the summit, the North Carolina Society of Hispanic Professionals. And we have been attending this event every year and this is through the central office, they are supporting that too. Maybe like six years ago, I was working with the El Pueblo organization.
FA: In Raleigh.
CG: And they came here and they gave them some information about smoking, preventing many things. They did a good job and we went to seminars with them. But it’s like on the personal level, if you know about this scholarship, you’ll send me an email and I’ll share it with the students. But there is nothing besides SLI; there is nothing like a program that puts them together and all their aspirations together and gives them the opportunity to go and do things like in a punctual or concrete way.
FA: Do you find that the Latino students here tend to stick with other Latino students; that they’re usually with them?
CG: Yes, they are usually hanging around one to each other. I haven’t seen a lot of interaction among the different cultures or ethnicities here. I would say almost zero.
FA: Okay, wow.
CG: It’s just Latinos and Latinos, African-Americans African-Americans, White White.
FA: Ok, I think that’s most of the questions I have for you. You’ve given me a lot of information and your story is so great.
CG: You’re going to be in trouble with your transcript [Laughter].
FA: It’ll be fine. You’re an interesting person and I’ll get to read it all over again and come back to ask you some more questions about certain things that I missed. But yeah, I think you’re doing a lot of great things at this school and I wish I would have had someone who is as inspiring as you are in high school and able to really help me along the way because I think you’re doing a great service for a lot of students that are here.
CG: Thank you, thank you.
FA: Do you want to add anything else, some last thoughts or anything?
CG: Well, thank you for the opportunity to share my experience because if it’s going to be helpful for somebody, then that’s the idea. Because it can show we can do whatever we want and if you put your heart into everything you do, you will do better. And I am so proud to see you, you are in the university and maybe I will invite you to one of my classes.
FA: [Laughter] I’ll come, I’ll be here.
CG: So you will show your spirit and your credentials and they are going to see that you can do it.
FA: Once I give this back to you, you can share it with your class.
CG: Yes, it will be wonderful.
FA: Thank you very much, it’s been a pleasure.
CG: My pleasure, you’re welcome. Thank you for inviting me.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Educadores
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Cristina describe emigrar a los Estados Unidos a través del programa internacional de profesores visitantes (Visiting International Faculty Program). Ella obtuvo un título de pregrado en Colombia donde enseñó también a nivel universitario en un departamento de Psicología. Cristina describe el precio de emigrar y cómo el apoyo de la comunidad de su iglesia y de sus estudiantes ha ayudado a aliviar su transición. Cristina empezó enseñando español como lengua extranjera y después se cambió a enseñar inglés como segunda lengua. Ella describe como Sanford, en Carolina del Norte, ha cambiado durante el curso de su carrera como maestra. Ella habla exhaustivamente sobre las cuestiones que sus estudiantes y las familias de ellos enfrenten: rechazo, discriminación, la reunificación de familia, violencia de las pandillas y de las drogas. Ella resalta su papel como maestra de enlace con el Programa de la Iniciativa Latina de Académicos (Scholar’s Latino Initiative Program) en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Cristina Granados por Felicia Arriaga, 26 Febrero 2014, R-0687, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Educación básica y media; Experiencia migratoria; Redes sociales; Racismo y discriminación; Guerra y violencia
Es: Transcripción
Felicia Arriaga: My name is Felicia and today is February 26th, 2014. I am here at Lee County High School in Sanford, North Carolina and I am here with a teacher at this school and her name is Cristina Granados. Is that correct?
Cristina Granados: Yes.
FA: Ok. And to begin with I just want to ask you--actually--hold on just a second, sorry. [Checking recorder] Ok. So the first question I want to--. So, I’m sitting here with Cristina Granados and she is an ESL teacher here at Lee County Middle--Lee County High School. So, I wanted to ask you first, when--. Where were you born and when did you actually come to this country?
CG: Ok. Hi, thank you for coming.
FA: [Laughter]
CG: Well, I was born in Manizales, this is a small city in the Southwest of my country, Colombia. But actually I grew up in Bogotá that is the capital city. And I went to this county ten years ago with an exchange teacher program.
FA: Oh, ok, very nice. And so how long were you here with that program?
CG: It was a three year program.
FA: Ok.
CG: Then I met my husband and I got married and I decided to stay here.
FA: Ok, great, great. And how often do you--? Do you get to go back to Colombia very often?
CG: Well actually my family--.Well I come from a family of immigrants, everybody immigrates, so my family lives in Europe, in Spain.
FA: Oh, ok, great.
CG: So, I visit more often Spain than Colombia.
FA: Oh ok.
CG: I think the last time I went to Colombia was back in 2008.
FA: Oh ok, so it’s been a while.
CG: So it was a long time ago but I try to visit my family in Spain every two years.
FA: Oh ok, great, great. Are you the only one of your siblings--? Do you have siblings and are you the only one in your family here?
CG: Yes, here in the United States I’m by myself. I mean I have like cousins; I have a couple of cousins that live in Florida and then my other cousin lives in Toronto, Canada. My nephew is moving to Houston, Texas, I think next month.
FA: Ok, so there will be a few other people here.
CG: Yes a few but actually I am by myself here or I feel like that.
FA: And how do you feel about that? How long--? You said you’ve been here for 10 years?
CG: Ten years.
FA: Ten years or so.
CG: Well it’s very hard. It’s a high price that you have to pay. If you--. When you immigrate, you don’t imagine how hard it is to live here. I mean you have a great life here, you have a better opportunity, you have many things you didn’t even imagine when you were in your country but the price that you have to pay is very high. I mean emotionally it hurts a lot to be by yourself when you need support or when you need somebody who loves you or who says ‘everything is going to be good.’ It’s very hard, it’s really hard.
FA: Yeah, for sure, for sure. And how--? Do you--? I guess do you talk to your family a lot then, since you said it’s pretty hard?
CG: Well, basically the communication is not very often with them. Well now we have these What’s App thing.
FA: Oh, ok. [Laughter]
CG: You know technology. But it’s kind of--. It’s--. I don’t know, you are so busy here that you cannot even call your family, you know, very often. I mean on the weekends we are crazy busy and I have to do many things. And this is one point and the other point is that the time is different.
FA: Ok, yeah.
CG: In Spain where my family lives is six hours ahead. So it’s kind of hard because when here it’s six o’clock, the time I’m available, there it is midnight. So yeah, the communication is not very often either.
FA: Ok. So when you came ten years ago, did you feel, besides your husband, was there--another--was there more of a community that you felt comfortable with?
CG: Oh, yes. Absolutely. I have found a lot of generous people here and many people in the church, I’m very involved with the community in the church. But actually, my best support emotionally here have been my students. They have been like my family always.
FA: Great, great.
CG: Actually, they are the reason I decided to stay. Because I just found out that they needed a lot of support. I was just dealing with all their horrible experiences when they came, and they passed through horrible situations, and usually they come here to meet some parents that they haven’t seen for years. And they are completely estranged from them. They are living with somebody who they don’t know and they have a lot of problems. Basically, my job here has been more giving them emotional support and showing them different ways to deal with all the things they have to deal with here. It’s not just the language barrier, it’s everything. It’s the societies, the communities, a complete new world without support because their families are always very busy. They come from families who work the whole day and sometimes even the nights so they are by themselves dealing with all of these emotional problems they have. Because you know I work with teenagers, they are passing through a difficult age and they have to deal with everything themselves with basically no support by the families so I try--in any way try--to supply this need.
FA: Do you get support from other teachers here at this school too or do you feel like you have to take a lot of that on by yourself?
CG: [Pause] Well actually there are some teachers that try to give them support but it’s kind of difficult because when you are working with a special program like ESL or students with special needs, all the responsibility is given to you. So they support them in some cases but mostly to solve their academic issues, learning problems or things like that. But when we are talking about their emotional situation--it’s just--there is almost nobody who can help them or try to support them. And the other point is that they are not able to express their emotions or their problems in English because they are not native English speakers. So, they are just a few people who are bilingual here and they are so busy just trying to, you know, do their jobs in different areas, that all the responsibility is given to me.
FA: Ok, and so are you the only ESL teacher here?
CG: Yes. I am the only one and we have--I have 187 students in the program and I am in charge of all of them.
FA: Wow. And how often--? Do you see all of them every day?
CG: Well [Laughter], no basically I have some groups that are in my class, ESL class but we are talking about twenty to thirty students. The other students are called SIOP classes, sheltered classes and they are only for Hispanic students and I have--am--co-teaching some of those classes and I am giving all the support I can to those students. This moment, this semester, we have eight classes, SIOP classes.
FA: And can you spell SIOP for me?
CG: It’s S-I-O-P. Those are sheltered instruction that means they have special methodologies to facilitate the learning of the content but at the same time facilitate the learning of the language. It’s both together at the same time. So in the co-teaching classes is what we do, I am the specialist in language so I work on all the vocabulary stuff, prior knowledge, building vocabulary, building background think, and the teacher works on the content area stuff. So we work together and we help them in this way.
FA: And these are all in English?
CG: Yeah, everything in English. I give them some support because--. I am trying--. We are trying to use the native language of the student, the Spanish, I mean as less as we can because we want them to be immersed in English context the whole time, it’s better for the learning process. However, I am giving them the support in their native language too, yeah, I use Spanish.
FA: How much interaction do you have with parents? I know you mentioned before that some of them may have little interaction with their parents but how often do you see them?
CG: Unfortunately, it is not very often. However, they are--. I am very involved with them because whenever they are on travels, they call me.
FA: Oh, ok.
CG: [Laughter] So as soon as there is a situation that they cannot handle or whenever they need information about an immunization, meetings or behavioral problems or anything, they call me. And actually, I’m just like the bridge between the teachers that don’t speak Spanish and the Hispanic students. So I handle all the phone calls for them and just try to be like the communication--the bridge--for the two cultures.
FA: Oh, ok. And do you see that the children sometimes are also bridging that? So you might be doing that between the different teachers but do the children have to do that as well?
CG: Yes, yes. They have to do that as well. Yeah, but actually--. Here at this school, we usually don’t do that because it is better to have an adult saying what’s going on. [Laughter] You know what I mean, they are always very smart so they can translate just the things that they think they have to. But in other situations in their lives, they are actually the support of their families. Actually, the families have high expectations for them. They say, ‘Well I brought you here and I want you to learn English and now it’s your responsibility to communicate, to be like my communication person.’ Okay. They have to deal with everything, paying bills, going to the doctor, translating for them in every situation outside the school and sometimes it is hard for them.
FA: I would imagine it would be. And so, do you--? Do y’all have parent nights where parents come in?
CG: Yes, we have a parent night every semester, Latino parent nights and we just have these meetings. They are not very--. Unfortunately the Latino community they don’t have this culture of just ‘let’s just go to school’ and communicate and see what’s going on with my child. They even, they have the opportunity to check the grades of their students online and they don’t use it. They just don’t know how to use it or they don’t have time. I think time is just a huge issue to deal with here, the parents just don’t have time for the kids and, but, how often do we meet? It’s once, exclusively with Latino parents it’s just once per semester, we call it Latino parent night and we have the open house but the participation of the Latino community in the open house is almost zero, out of twenty students you’ll have one or two parents in each group.
FA: Okay. And how big is the Latino student population?
CG: We are talking about thirty to thirty five percent Latino population.
FA: I want to get back to a little bit about your exchange program and how you ended up --. Did you actually come to Sanford or were you somewhere else?
CG: No, I actually came from Colombia to Wilson, North Carolina. I was teaching English--Spanish--first to the English speakers for three years and when I got married, my husband has a house here and when I came to Sanford I started working as an ESL teacher, teaching the Latino population.
FA: Okay and which one of those do you feel more comfortable with? What are the pros and cons [Laughter]?
CG: Absolutely, I love ESL [Laughter]. I love it. You can imagine the work, the huge amount of things that you have to do with those kids. You can imagine how hard is their situation and how they need support of somebody. They are eager to know that someone is interested in what is going on with them. They are looking for information about anything, they are lost when they first came here, everything is new for them, they are lost and they feel like if they are not going to make it. And they need somebody who says, ‘everybody can and hey, you are going to do it.’ And helping them, well you are like our mother and I say, ‘yes, of course I am.’
FA: [Laughter]
CG: Yeah, because most of my students have their mother in Mexico or in another country and their parent, the father, who is the person who usually immigrates, just, you know they have to save money to bring them here. But, usually they have a new family here and so those kids are the new person in that family. So they are not welcome all the time and we have to deal with this every day and that’s the reason because I love my job. Because what I’m doing is not just trying to teach them English but trying to support them, trying to just open a new life for them and try to teach them it’s not as terrible as it looks and they are going to do it if they put all the effort.
FA: That’s great, that’s great. It sounds like you do a lot. [Laughter]
CG: Yes, I am doing a lot.
FA: How do you--. I guess, how are you able to do all those extra things, I’m just trying think about what your time in the classroom looks like? Is it spent a lot on instruction or do you find that you have to really take care of a lot of both the instruction of the ESL classes and the SIOP classes or is it that your students are coming after school. How much interaction, I guess, do you have with them?
CG: Actually, during my planning period which is my third block. I have a lot of students here. They have different times for their lunch; actually we have three lunches here. And during my planning they are coming all the time, even during their regular classes they ask for permission and teachers know and they say, ‘if it’s to Ms. Granados, you can go.’ Because they know there is something going on and that I am trying to help them with a situation that most of the time is kind of hard for them to deal with. During my planning time, during lunch time, after school, and even during the weekends sometimes. Yeah, if they have--. They love when they invite you to their parties, like fifteen birthday parties [laughter] and I say ‘yes.’ [Points at file cabinet full of mementos, picture is included]
FA: I was wondering what all those were when I walked in.
CG: All of those are just like, you know, the little souvenirs that they give you. And when my students have won soccer [Pause] championships, they bring me the trophies.
FA: That’s great.
CG: And they are my former students.
CG: So the interactions continue. We are like a family. Actually with experience, you know, you learn how to deal with your time. This is the point here is to learn to distribute your time in the way that you can deal with everything that you have to but mainly pay attention to the emotional part of the student, pay attention to the person and not just like a student because they really, really need a lot of attention.
FA: I’m interested in how do you--? How do you actually counsel them or how do you go about helping them express their emotions and really talking about that? And do you feel your own experience as an immigrant helps with that?
CG: I have been trying to be a role model for them and my first point here is to respect them a lot. As far as I respect them, if I show them respect, they respect me so you build a, you know, a very good relationship. So you respect me, I respect you. And I have examples for them, actually [turns towards the file cabinet] this little cup from Puerto Rico, you see the Puerto Rico flag? He was an ESL student and now he is in Japan. He’s in the American Air Force, I’m so proud of him, he’s a pilot. And I said ok, ‘if my student, who was an immigrant like you when he came here from Puerto Rico, he didn’t know any English, like you. He was as scared as you. And now he’s in Japan, he’s in the American Air Force.’ I give them examples of students that were successful and everything, I just invite the student and I say, ‘ok, just tell your story to those kids. And I ask them how did you feel.’ And they did a great job and said, ‘Well, I was really scared, I was crying, I was--. I had this and this and this problem. But I did it, I overcame all the obstacles. I had to have determination and work hard and I had to believe in myself.’ Because just building self-esteem is a very hard thing but once they got it, they do a great job. Self-esteem is the point here too.
FA: That’s great. [Pause] How do you--? I know that you said you’ve been here for almost 13--10--years and you said you visit your family a lot in Spain but do you feel like this has become your home?
CG: Well in some way yeah. I love this country; this country gave me a lot of things. This country gave me a lot of things that I didn’t have in my life, like security, a safe place to live. I think as immigrants or about my personal experience as an immigrant, what I was looking for was not money or you know, like economic position. I was looking for safety because I come from a country that is very violent so you never know what could happen there. And that’s the reason why we all immigrated, my whole family. They went to Spain and my sister went to France and I came here. And, yes, actually I don’t know if this is a place I can call home, I think it is, I feel like an adopted child. [Laughter] I don’t think the United States thinks I’m her daughter, I’m her adopted daughter and I’m trying to be a good girl here. And one day they are going to, ‘ok, I love this adopted child as if she were mine.’ But it’s kind of [Pause] hard to leave your country because you really love your country but when there are not conditions to live your life there and there is another country that give you those--these--opportunities you just don’t think about it. I am very, very grateful with this country. I think it’s a wonderful place to live.
FA: Great, great. How do your students feel about it? And how do they feel about their move? And you talked a little bit about some of their challenges with moving, particularly if their family has already been here for a while, so how do you--? Are they--? Do they feel happy here or are most--some--of them trying to figure it out?
CG: Well, they, they really don’t like it. When I ask them, “do you like the country, are you excited about being here?’ They say, ‘absolutely not.’ They feel rejected, they feel discriminated. They feel--.
FA: In what ways?
CG: In many ways. They think people don’t like them because they don’t speak English. They think people don’t like them because they are Brown and many people call them Wetbacks or beaners or other things like that. And they think they are like in a [Pause] they are in a different world, they think that people just take them away put them in a different place where they are together but no one else is there, like in a ghetto. And it’s in the beginning when they first come in, they feel all of this rejection and I don’t think it’s rejection, it’s lack of communication. When they cannot communicate, they feel that nobody likes them but it’s not real, it’s just the feeling that they have because they don’t have cannot establish any communication with nobody here. And then when they have their family, I mean my former students, they feel that this country is their country. They have their children, they get married, they go to college and then they feel they are welcome here and then they understand that this is a process that they have to pass through. But at the beginning it is very hard, they just don’t like it. They say--. They say, ‘this is boring,’ they just don’t like us, we don’t like them. This is violent, they think they are not going to make it, they think it’s not fair, the system is not fair with them is the reason. Because they feel they are discriminated and they say, ‘well why do we have to pass through all of this if we don’t speak English and why don’t we have like special grading and why do have to do exactly like the other students have to do?’ And I say, ‘well that’s the way it is. We came to a different country and they have their country and they have their rules, we have to follow the rules.” But for a teenager it’s very hard to get that. They usually don’t like it at all.
FA: So do you think they feel that way in the schools or also in the community? And in their homes?
CG: I think in the schools and in the community and in their house too. Because as I told you; they come to a new home where the parents, mom or dad, has another family. So they are like intruders here, they have their children here and the children speak English and the one that just came doesn’t do it so it’s kind of hard for them. Usually they have a really difficult relationship with the stepmothers or stepfathers and you have these [Pause] problems, and they are all the time, you have to deal a lot with the problems and try to just help the students to adapt to the new situation and also helping the parents because it’s hard for the parents too. It’s difficult for them to deal with a teenager that has been growing with the grandparents and doing whatever they want in their country and then they come here and they have rules here, you cannot do whatever you want here. And this is something they don’t like it.
FA: And you mentioned something about some of your students saying it was violent. Can you explain a little bit about what you meant?
CG: Well, yes. [Pause] Usually they have to deal with drugs, drug dealers and gangs. And its bullying, it’s also usual. And so it’s really hard for them to deal with that. Usually they have to just deal with all of this stuff from the beginning when they came because the new students are the ones that are more vulnerable.
FA: Are there programs in the school that they are actively trying to counter some of those things? So like an anti-bullying campaigns or something?
CG: Not really, no. I was trying to do something. Actually, in my classes I tried to do--. I was--. I just remembered that I was working in a program, it was called TOP, T-O-P and in this program I was working on that. I usually talked to them about drugs, and gangs, and STDs, and pregnancy and all of these things. Unfortunately they did not give me more of the support to do that. It was with the Coalition of Families of Lee County, but they say, ‘No you cannot do it anymore, you have to have a special instruction.’ It’s a pity because we were talking about many things with that and I think it was very useful for the students. It’s a pity they don’t have it anymore.
FA: So they don’t have the program at all or they were just saying that you had to be certified to do it?
CG: Yeah, yeah. They said I have to have a special training and it was very expensive for them to pay for it and they said it was like $800. I was doing it for free, I wasn’t charging. I was just doing it by myself and doing the program for free. Yeah, I didn’t get paid for that. And here in the school, it’s not like any specific campaigns, or things like advertisements or things like that against these kinds of things because I think in high school they consider that those issues are not very common in the school. You know what I mean? They consider it is a middle school or elementary school program but I don’t think it’s very true.
FA: So then how are they dealing with some of those issues?
CG: They have to you know just listen and see and keep your mouth shut. It’s very difficult to, you know, help them in a very direct way. You know what I mean. I am a teacher here and all that I can do is to listen and when there is something really hard, I have to, my duty is to just go ahead and talk about that. But it’s hard to do it when you don’t have the time to maybe collect proof and I don’t have the time to do that. But actually I have seen my students scared and they have been beaten in the classroom or something and they don’t say a word. But then they say, ‘Ms. I will tell you what happened but please don’t say.’ Because it is worse. It’s going to be worse for them later. [Pause]
FA: So, you do deal with a lot. [Laughter]
CG: Well I think this life is kind of complicated, and it’s not easy but it is very rewarding. I love it because most of my students pass through all of this and they do good and then I see them in college. That’s my reward, I’m happy and they send me the pictures of their babies [turns towards bulletin board with photos]. And when they get married and get their citizenship, they send me the pictures. And they invite me to their baptisms of the kids. We are, we are like a family.
FA: [Laughter] So this is like your new family, your extended family.
CG: Yeah, it’s kind of an extended family, a big family. I have a lot of grandchildren. [Laughter] Like twenty something and it’s growing and growing.
FA: I wanted to ask you a little bit more about how you first got into teaching and the education system in general?
CG: Well in my country, I studied a bachelor’s degree in English and Spanish. Then I did some specializations in my country too. That was--. Well actually, it was an educational career like here; it was five years, five years in my country. I get this bachelor’s degree and then I applied, they did this advertisement about the VIF program. And I just, ‘well why not, let’s try’ and I get it. It was an interview and you have to have teaching experience and certain qualities and things. But my--. I learned my English in my country and it was a Bachelor’s degree in English, it was for five years.
FA: Then the VIF program was the exchange program to come here?
CG: Yes, that was the exchange program. Then I came here back in 2001 and then I was teaching there for these three years. But in my country I was teaching when I was in the university, you can do this there. [Laughter] You can do everything there. So I was teaching since I was, I think, in the second semester of the university. So they said, ‘ok we pay you at half money.’ And I say, ‘ok’ and I had previous experience for about nine years before coming here. So I started really, really young and actually when I came, when I immigrated from Colombia, I was teaching at a university there too, after I did the major, the specialization, I got a job in the university, I was teaching English in the psychology faculty, it was fascinating. I love psychology, I think I am a frustrated psychologist because I really love it.
FA: Great. So you’ve been at this school for ten years?
CG: Ten.
FA: So, have you seen the Latino population increase over that time?
CG: Oh, yes, yes.
FA: Can you describe that a little bit?
CG: Oh yes, yes. Well, at the beginning when I just came here we had a population of about 27 or 28 but now we have a population of about 37. So it’s growing a lot, we have a lot of teenagers and a lot coming from the middle schools. And actually after the DREAM Act thing, Affirmative Action I think they call it.
FA: Deferred Action?
CG: Yes, Deferred Action. They have been immigrating just more often. I know now its more difficult, it’s been very difficult to immigrate. As a matter of fact, last month we have three new students; three new students coming. It’s like wow and this semester we have had like seven. And when I say new students I mean newcomers, people who came to this country for the first time. Because sometimes you have students that come from a different country but have been here for a long time but newcomers-about seven. Those are people with zero English that come to this country for the first time. That is amazing. I think they are, I don’t know. The population is growing really, really fast here in North Carolina and I have seen the statistics and this is what they say too. The population is growing but I think it is wonderful because if you compare Sanford--the Sanford-- that I found when I came ten years ago and the Sanford we have now, there is no point of comparison. I mean the growth of the city, the economy. When I came here, there were only two car dealers and now we have like seven or eight. And we have an increase in the real estate business and the grocery stores and everything and if you go and see who are the customers, the Latino population is the main. I mean if you go to a restaurant and I think it’s a very--. I mean I was talking to my husband, my ex-husband and he has been here for about eighteen years, and he said ‘well you can imagine how was this town was before the Latino population. It was like, it was a small town with nothing to do, no business.’ And in the last ten years maybe, we are talking about the last eight to ten years, the growing has been incredible and it’s mostly because of the Latino immigration, I think.
FA: And is there any--. You talked a little bit about with the students, when they first get here they feel discriminated, or alone in certain ways. Do you see that there’s any like discrimination from the community? You were explaining a little bit about the growth of the community but do you see any, I guess, anti-immigrant sort of things going on here?
CG: Feelings? Well, I think it’s not just here; it’s in the whole country. After the economy crashed, the government, the presiding government, it was an anti-immigrant feeling I think in the whole country. Because well I, I understand that, they need somebody to point. I don’t think it’s an anti-immigrant attitude; it’s just a [Pause] lack of communication, lack of establishing a real exchange of productive ideas for sharing. And most of this is because there are barriers; the language barrier, the cultural barrier. Many things that are kind of difficult to overcome. It’s not an anti-immigrant situation, it’s isolation, I would say, it’s lack of communication.
FA: One thing I wanted to ask you more about, because you are one of the teacher liaisons with the SLI program at UNC, when did that partnership start? How did that begin?
CG: Oh, I’m so glad, I’m so glad I’m working with this. It was back in 2000 and six or seven, no it was later, I think it was like in 2010. Actually there was a teacher, her name was Deborah Wilkes, and she was the person that started the program here in Lee County. Then she resigned, she got another job in a different county and she said, ‘well, you want to do it.’ And I said, ‘yeah, I would love it.’ And I started working on this and I am so glad. It has been a wonderful experience. I think they are doing a lot for the students, it’s not just the scholarships, it’s just the self-esteem. And they are giving them confidence, a lot of self-confidence, they are giving them support, tutoring. They are showing them a different world; they are showing them that there are many opportunities waiting for them. So I am so glad to see students that are in UNC, students that won scholarships that were my students, oh my god. I am very, very grateful for that because I am working hard on this and even with this stuff that I have to do this is something that is very, very important. This is the way that we start, we have been working on this--. I think that at the beginning, since it was a relatively new program, they were just trying to see how to do things better but now they are consolidating. They are having policies, very specific policies and I think it is very good for the students. I think they are doing a good thing for the students.
FA: The students enjoy it?
CG: Oh yes, they feel so proud. Every time when I, when they start the registration or the application process, I have a lot of students begging [Laughter], ‘I want to do it, please, please.’ And I say, ‘ok, I will do my best.’ But there are always more applications waiting, on standby because they want to do it because they listen to the other students and they see that they get to go to the university. And UNC-Chapel Hill is a very prestigious place and so they say, ‘please, I want to participate.’ And I say, ‘well, you have to earn it.’ I am grateful, last year for the first time they accepted two students that were in my class. That means, their proficiency in English were very low but they were very hard working students and I said, ‘please give them the opportunity’ because one of the requirements is to be completely fluent in English. And I said, ‘please give them the opportunity because they want to do it.’ They are two of the best students in the program, they just come in and they are remaining and they are working hard. Actually, after they enrolled in SLI, the next semester they exited the ESL program. So they were at proficiency level and I said, ‘see, I told you, you wouldn’t regret.’ I’m so proud of those kids because they have the level they require for that and they did it with hard work. They were in this country for about two years, they only had one year of ESL.
FA: That’s awesome.
CG: Yes it is. They have very good expectations; they have very good long-term education goals. And I know they are going to do it, I am positive.
FA: That’s great. That’s great. [Pause] I think I have a couple more questions for you. You answered a lot of what I wanted to know about how you support the students and some of the challenges you face, I think, on a daily basis. Do you feel overwhelmed and is there ever--is there--a way for you to get help if you are overwhelmed?
CG: Yes, I have the support of my, of the central office of education, I have a wonderful ESL team. My boss is a wonderful person and the director of the program, Dr. Warren, is wonderful. Mrs. Mills who is the coordinator of the teachers, is wonderful. And they have the requirement that makes everything possible and it’s that they love those kids. They love those kids. They really put all their heart into them. And I think that’s the number one requirement, if you don’t teach with love, if you don’t love those kids, if you don’t believe in them, if you don’t trust them, there is nothing to do.
FA: Do you get to meet with the team a lot and how many ESL teachers are there?
CG: Actually, we have like, I can’t say exactly the number, but like twenty something and we have some teacher assistants too. Well, we meet every month and we just share experiences and they are very similar at all the levels. At elementary school you listen to the same stories, in middle school the same stories, and in high school, exactly the same. Actually, the profile of all the ESL teachers in the program is very similar. We have to keep in mind that they must need the support and be appreciated and feel--build--self-esteem and self-confidence. Show them to success in this world and this society. It is a very good thing to work with, we are pretty busy all the time but I think we are doing good, at least we are doing our best. I know that.
FA: I think it’s good that y’all have that time to be with each other and really talk about the successes and challenges at the same time.
CG: Yes, happy stories and sad stories and everything. It’s wonderful.
FA: That’s great. That’s great. So, I think one of the last questions I have, how do you--. For the students you are working with, the ones that are successful, are there--. I guess I’m trying to think about this. Are there other programs? I can’t remember the name of them: SIOP, some of them do the Scholar’s Latino Initiative. I was wondering about other support systems other than coming to you, specifically for Latino students? How have they been able to be successful?
CG: Well. Actually we, here in the school, we don’t have a like a counselor being a specialist in finding opportunities for the Latino population specifically so we have to do by ourselves. All the process for applying for scholarships, for applying for college, getting a-you know-just like doing the classes, taking the correct classes, and things like that has been done through the ESL counselor that is also a Latino person, from Argentina. I’m doing everything I can and also the central office helps too. I don’t know exactly a program but if they know about a scholarship, they know about a seminar or program for Latino students, they are always looking for that. Actually, I think next month they are going to the summit, the North Carolina Society of Hispanic Professionals. And we have been attending this event every year and this is through the central office, they are supporting that too. Maybe like six years ago, I was working with the El Pueblo organization.
FA: In Raleigh.
CG: And they came here and they gave them some information about smoking, preventing many things. They did a good job and we went to seminars with them. But it’s like on the personal level, if you know about this scholarship, you’ll send me an email and I’ll share it with the students. But there is nothing besides SLI; there is nothing like a program that puts them together and all their aspirations together and gives them the opportunity to go and do things like in a punctual or concrete way.
FA: Do you find that the Latino students here tend to stick with other Latino students; that they’re usually with them?
CG: Yes, they are usually hanging around one to each other. I haven’t seen a lot of interaction among the different cultures or ethnicities here. I would say almost zero.
FA: Okay, wow.
CG: It’s just Latinos and Latinos, African-Americans African-Americans, White White.
FA: Ok, I think that’s most of the questions I have for you. You’ve given me a lot of information and your story is so great.
CG: You’re going to be in trouble with your transcript [Laughter].
FA: It’ll be fine. You’re an interesting person and I’ll get to read it all over again and come back to ask you some more questions about certain things that I missed. But yeah, I think you’re doing a lot of great things at this school and I wish I would have had someone who is as inspiring as you are in high school and able to really help me along the way because I think you’re doing a great service for a lot of students that are here.
CG: Thank you, thank you.
FA: Do you want to add anything else, some last thoughts or anything?
CG: Well, thank you for the opportunity to share my experience because if it’s going to be helpful for somebody, then that’s the idea. Because it can show we can do whatever we want and if you put your heart into everything you do, you will do better. And I am so proud to see you, you are in the university and maybe I will invite you to one of my classes.
FA: [Laughter] I’ll come, I’ll be here.
CG: So you will show your spirit and your credentials and they are going to see that you can do it.
FA: Once I give this back to you, you can share it with your class.
CG: Yes, it will be wonderful.
FA: Thank you very much, it’s been a pleasure.
CG: My pleasure, you’re welcome. Thank you for inviting me.
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
Dublin Core
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Title
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R-0687 -- Granados, Cristina.
Description
An account of the resource
Cristina Granados describes immigrating to the United States through the Visiting International Faculty Program. She obtained a bachelors degree in Colombia where she also taught in a university level psychology department. Cristina describes the price of immigrating, but says that the support from the church community and her students has made her transition easier. Cristina began teaching Spanish as a Foreign Language and then moved to English as a Second Language. She describes how Sanford has changed over the course of her teaching career. She describes in-depth her relationship with her students and their families. She talks extensively about the issues her students face: rejection, discrimination, family re-unification, gang and drug violence. She also highlights her role as a teacher liaison with the Scholar’s Latino Initiative Program housed at The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
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26 February 2014
Format
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R0687_Audio.mp3
Publisher
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/19858">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>