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https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/88b943810c0094662bc5233abfac331d.mp3
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https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/f2c04a7cf33d10696907de506d85b5bc.pdf
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SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-1006
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
Fecha
2023-05-26
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Briceño, Adolfo.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Administrator
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1972
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Male
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Mérida -- Yucatan -- México
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Clemmons -- Forsyth County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-89.6237402 20.9670759),1972,1;POINT(-80.3819984 36.0215258),2006,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Velásquez, Daniel.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Adolfo Briceño is Program Manager of Human Relations and Diversity, Equity and Inclusion at the City of Winston-Salem. He shares his early life experience in Mérida, Mexico, where he was born and educated. Having studied economics, he grew disillusioned with the field while working as a mortgage analyst at a Cancún bank and switched careers to become a journalist for El Diario de Yucatán. During his tenure there, Adolfo was approached with a job opportunity by Qué Pasa, a North Carolina-based newsletter serving the state’s Spanish-speaking community. After five years at Qué Pasa, he again switched careers to work in fair housing investigation and landlord-tenant mediation for the City of Winston-Salem. Though his duties have expanded, he still works in this role today. Adolfo shares several stories from his time as a journalist, including his coverage of deportation, and imparts his thoughts on discrimination in the US drawn from his experiences in local government.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Adolfo Briceño by Daniel Velásquez, 26 May 2023, R-1006, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29334
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Community and social services and programs; Integration and segregation; Labor and employment; Leadership; Migratory experience
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Administrador
Es: Género de entrevistado
Hombre
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Adolfo Briceño es Director del Programa de Relaciones Humanas y Diversidad, Equidad e Inclusión de la ciudad de Winston-Salem. Comparte sus primeras experiencias de vida en Mérida (México), donde nació y se educó. Tras estudiar economía, se desilusionó con este campo mientras trabajaba como analista hipotecario en un banco de Cancún y cambió de profesión para convertirse en periodista de El Diario de Yucatán. Durante su estancia allí, Adolfo recibió una oferta de trabajo de Qué Pasa, un boletín de Carolina del Norte que sirve a la comunidad hispanohablante del estado. Transcurridos cinco años en Qué Pasa, volvió a cambiar de profesión para trabajar en el Ayuntamiento de Winston-Salem en el campo de la investigación sobre vivienda justa y la mediación entre propietarios e inquilinos. Aunque sus funciones se han ampliado, sigue desempeñando este papel en la actualidad. Adolfo comparte varias anécdotas de su tiempo como periodista, incluyendo su cobertura de la deportación, e imparte sus reflexiones sobre la discriminación en los EE.UU. basados en sus experiencias en el gobierno local.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Adolfo Briceño por Daniel Velásquez, 26 May 2023, R-1006, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Experiencia migratoria; Integración y segregación; Liderazgo; Programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios; Trabajo y empleo
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Daniel Velásquez: Okay, I am Daniel Velásquez. I'm here with Adolfo Briceño, who is Program Manager of Human Relations and Diversity, Equity and Inclusion at the City of Winston-Salem. Today is May 26th of 2023, and we are conducting this via Zoom. Adolfo, thank you so much for being with us today and for sharing your story.
Adolfo Briceño: My pleasure, Daniel. My pleasure.
DV: Okay, Adolfo, to get started, could you tell me about your personal background, where you were born and raised, any early life experiences that you want to share?
AB: Yeah, sure. I was born in Mérida, Yucatán in Mexico. This is on the Yucatán Peninsula. I was born according to my birth certificate, right. Neither of us has a memory of that event, that momentous event, right, but my birth certificate says that I was born on the sixth of June 1972 in Mérida, Yucatán, which has been the, it is still, it has been traditional in the state capital of Yucatán. So, I was born there. My father has my same name. You know, in our countries, we, so he's Adolfo Enrique Briceño Acosta. That's my father's name. My mother's is Jader Lisbeth Medina Cano. Those were my parents. My father was always like a public employee. He worked for several state and federal agencies in Yucatán or in Mexico. And my mother was a teacher, schoolteacher, I think elementary school teacher. But she quit completely when I was born. I'm a twin brother, so I have a twin that he still lives in the Yucatán. My mother tragically passed away when I was five years old. It was a car accident. We were all in the vehicle, by the way. And so, I have very little memories of her, unfortunately. I don't know, growing up in Yucatán was always a very--. I never knew that, but Yucatán has, it's kind of isolated, you know, it's a peninsula, so it juts out into the sea. And because of that, we've always, it was always difficult access. I mean, I remember at some point--well I don't remember this, right--but I know that, that the connections, the highways that join Yucatán and with the rest of the country are fairly new. I'm talking about 1970s when they started. The, maybe the international airport started in 1969. So, this created, this kind of isolation created something of a unique perspective, a unique cultural identity for those people that live in Yucatán. We have a distinct accent from the rest of the Mexicans. We say things that only are said in Yucatán for the most part. And Yucatán, because of that isolation, used to look more into Cuba, and that's why I think that's why we have some, we have some words and expressions and sayings that are more from Cuba and the Caribbean than of Yucatán, I mean, the rest of Mexico. And I think that also plays into this unique identity that we have, people from Yucatán. I lived there all my life in Mérida until I was about thirty-six years old. Well, in reality, I lived four years in Cancun, too. Cancun is also in the Yucatán Peninsula, but in a neighboring state, but it's more or less the same thing, you know. So, I really didn't have any other experience until I came to the United States here in North Carolina, in Winston-Salem. And I have stayed here the whole time. So, my whole U.S. experience is Winston-Salem, here in North Carolina.
DV: Before you came to Winston-Salem, you were educated in Mexico, and you worked there for a while, correct?
AB: Yes, of course. I mean, I lived there. I went to the university, the state university in Yucatán, which is called the Autonomous, the Yucatán Autonomous University. I think that would be the correct translation. La Universidad Autónoma de Yucatán. It was also a very respected academic institution because people from neighboring states would come to study to Yucatán. So, I studied there and I had a Bachelor in economics. That's what I ended up studying. And upon graduation, right out of college, let's say, I started working for a bank. And that's my Cancun experience. It was a national bank called Banamex. Even when I was still working for Banamex, it was bought by the Citi Group. And I think they're still part of the Citi Group. So, I worked there four years as a mortgage analyst. That was my official title. And after that, I was kind of disillusioned. How do you say that, of the banking experience--.
DV: Disillusioned?
AB: Right, so, I started, I decided to take a completely different direction and I went to work for a newspaper. And that decision was very--. It's interesting how things happen because that decision in the end brought me to the United States, I think. I work for a newspaper in Yucatán called El Diario de Yucatán. It's one of the oldest newspapers in the Yucatán and very respected, too, because at the start of the paper, several, what do you call it, goons from the regime tried to destroy the paper. This was early 1900s, but they destroyed the presses. Goons, thugs--.
DV: This was during the Porfiriato period?
AB: Yeah by the regime, went inside the paper and destroyed the printing presses twice in five or six years, I don't know. The editor of that newspaper, in 1926, he was murdered inside the newspaper. Those were interesting times of political upheaval in Yucatán and in Mexico in general. And because of that, the paper had, until this day, has a lot of, what's the word, a lot of sway, you know, with the population. I'm looking for a different word. But I couldn't find it.
DV: Influence, perhaps?
AB: Influence, we could say influence. It was a different word what I was looking for, but you get my meaning. It's one of the leading newspapers in readership in the Yucatán. And I worked for them for about four years, another four years. And while I was working there, it was interesting how all these things happened. I knew--. I was, you know, new, relatively new, two or three years working into the paper. And a very experienced reporter called in sick that day, and they sent me to one of the offices. It was a press conference for one of the conservative parties in Mexico, PAN, El Partido de Acción Nacional, if you are familiar with it. At the end of that conference, the, how to say this, it's not the marketing, let's say the press guy from the state party approached me and said, I think I know you. Now, when I was still in college, I had a very, very brief stint of two or three months, perhaps six months, working at a different local newspaper and I was just trying to pay the bills, you know, or to have a little bit of money as I was a student. But I didn't like the, I mean, it really was taking me, taking a lot of time from my studying so I quit. So anyway, from that experience, he remembered me, this guy, and said, did you want to go to the United States to work? Sure, what do I have to do? He gave me a business card. And that business card was from the Executive Director of Qué Pasa, which at the time was Francisco Cámara. I've never met Francisco in my life, but Francisco was from Yucatán, from Mérida. And this guy tells me, yeah, he’s, my friend. He called me yesterday. He's looking for a reporter, but he needs someone that speaks English. You speak English, don't you? Yeah, I speak English. Okay, call him. He gave me a business card. Don't you think that's fate? It's a very interesting, interesting coincidence, you call it, whatever you want to call it. It's almost fate. Now, I did not call the guy immediately, to be completely honest with you. I called him like a year later.
DV: Wow.
AB: Yeah, but he, I explained the whole thing that I just explained to you, and I told him, do you still think I can work from there? And he says, look, I really don't need someone there, but I might in the future. Why don't you come here? And I did. I came there five days, and I worked, you know, he just wanted to see where I was with writing. And I left, and he said, okay, thank you very much, and they paid everything. They paid my stay, they paid the ticket plane. All I had to pay during this time was my meals. And he said, well, thank you. We'll call you. And I knew there was no promise at all to--.
DV: You went back home.
AB: I went back home, yeah, I did. And then about six months into the experience, after that, I texted him and said, hey, something happened, do you think there's still a chance? And I think he had completely forgotten about me. And he said something in the email. You know something? This is funny. But my reporter just told me yesterday that he's quitting. Yeah, yeah, let's do it. Come in, and it happened.
DV: Wow.
AB: I was very lucky how I came here because they sponsored me a work visa. And I arrived here in Winston-Salem in November. The fourth or sixth of November, I cannot remember now the date.
DV: What year?
AB: 2006.
DV: So, had you been looking to come to the United States or what was really behind you reaching out to them?
AB: I thought it was going to be a good opportunity and I knew that I would get paid more than I was going to pay there so I was pretty much the story so yeah it was interesting.
DV: Was it difficult to leave family behind?
AB: Well, I was single at the time. So, I never, that was the easy part. If I had been married and with children, probably would have been a little bit more problematic. But I was single. I mean, there was nothing really holding me there, except, you know, the friends that I left and lifelong friends and I'm still in contact with them, right. But it's different, you know, when you live in a different country.
DV: What about your twin brother?
AB: He's still there. He's still working there in Mérida. He's still there. He's still there. And my family, everybody's there still. The only one that's here, of the immediate family, let's say, it's me. I'm the only one that came here. So that's the story.
DV: Do you go back often? Do you miss it?
AB: I don't know. Of course, I miss it a lot. I miss the people that are left there, and I miss the food. And yeah, of course, I should be going, I hope, at the end of this year. And it's going to be the first time I go since 2015, so.
DV: Wow.
AB: It's been a while since the last time I was there, yeah.
DV: Wow.
AB: But I think I'm hoping I will be able to go this time.
DV: How was it after you started living here in 2006 and working here?
AB: Well, it was, I--. It was interesting, but I did not know that Qué Pasa was, well, I knew because I had been, they tested me right at the start of that year. But I knew--. I thought Qué Pasa was a newspaper because I think that's how they advertised themselves, Qué Pasa newspaper. But it was not a newspaper, it was a weekly magazine. So, I was hoping, or I thought that when I was here, I was going to be working, you know, in a newspaper when you work every day in a newspaper, you know how that is. But in a magazine, weekly magazine is a little bit more laid back because you don't have to come out tomorrow, right. So, that was better, I guess, in a sense you can, you really have the sense that you're having a little bit of a life. Whereas if you're in a newspaper working every day and you every day have to produce and produce and produce, I mean your whole life really revolves around that. In the weekly magazine it's the same thing, but you know that the cycle is a little bit more extended. So that was different. And of course, the things that you find here, I never knew snow. I experienced snow here. What else? I really spoke English a lot, I think, enough to have a communication with people. But I discovered that my accent was awful. Still, we all have an accent, right. I think this accent is never going to go away. But I think it's a lot better than what it was. In such a way that I think people understand a little bit better what I'm trying to say. So that was different too. I don't know. The food before was different.
DV: What about working for Qué Pasa? You worked there for about five years, right?
AB: Five years. About five years.
DV: Do you have any highlights or anecdotes you'd like to share?
AB: Let me think. It's been so long now. I did that for so many years, five, that even today I have some people that remember me from those years and will tell me, hi, hello, this is me. You remember me? No, I'm sorry, ma'am or sir, I don't. And apparently, I did a story about them in those years, but I really can't remember. When you're doing that, it's like, I'm going to give you an analogy: Peter and I, in this movie called The Bonfire of the Vanities, if you have never seen that movie, watch it, it's really good, it's with Tom Hanks and Bruce Willis. In this movie, Bruce Willis is a reporter. And Tom Hanks is a financier, disgraced financier, and Bruce Willis is doing a story about him. And when they finally meet, Tom Hanks says, why are you doing this to me? And Bruce Willis says something like, doing this to you, not doing anything to you, you're just dinner. Tomorrow I will not remember what I ate. So that's the analogy that I can give you about those stories. This is just breakfast and dinner. Two or three years from now we will not remember. And of course, it's awful to say it that way, but it is kind of true because you don't have a choice. You have to keep producing stories. And once you produce a story, you forget it and you go to the next one. That's more or less the cycle of reporting.
DV: And you meet so many people over so many years.
AB: I'm pretty sure it was a lot of people over the years, in those years, the stories that stuck with me were about those people that were deported, for instance. Those were very, very interesting stories. There was a woman that I interviewed in Greensboro, and I think all her, I think she had lived in the United States for years, probably when she was a little girl, I really don't remember now. But I mean, she started, you know the story, they started here, the elementary, middle, high school, everything, but she was undocumented. And she was caught somehow, she was even married to an American, and they were trying to, I don't know, arrange her situation and something happened. They discover her situation, and she was arrested and sent to an immigration detention center. I don't know if she was deported or not. I think she was not. I think she was able to pay the bond to her family and she was released and that's when I interviewed her somehow. I don't know how I got in touch with her, but anyway, what I remember about this woman is that she told me that she was shackled, like from the neck, the, you know, the wrist and the ankles, and that's how they would transfer her to, went to her immigration hearing or whatever. Shackled, in chains, she felt awful. And I'm like, she was saying I'm not a criminal, I'm not, but anyway, those immigration stories really stick with you. There was another story that I did of, this was a waiter in Greensboro. Well, I didn't interview him because he was actually deported. He was Mexican, but I talked to some of his buddies, and he's saying, of course he was undocumented, right, but he went to a park in Greensboro after hours, after he left the restaurant, I don't know what time it was. You know, it was dark at night. But it is those parks in Greensboro that says, there's a sign, I went to the park myself, you know, and there's a sign that says that you cannot enter after when it's dark. But he didn't know any better and he was just walking, he just was trying to clear his mind for whatever, he was just walking in the park. And I don't know, there were houses right in front of the park and all around the park there were houses. It was like a residential neighborhood and probably somebody called the police. And the police came, and they asked him. He spoke very little English. He didn't have an ID with him. He was arrested. And it was in those days where, in those Bush years where the 287g, I don't know if you remember that law where the sheriff's department was forced to, I think they were forced into collaboration with immigration authorities--.
DV: ICE.
AB: With ICE, right. And he ended up being deported, this young man. And of course, the people, his friends, the ones that I talked to. So, he was deported because he was walking in the park. That's one of the stories that I had. I'm pretty sure that there are many, many more there that I don't remember now. But those immigration stories were always big, big, big, every time I was there.
DV: Was the readership of Qué Pasa mostly Hispanic folks in Winston-Salem?
AB: I would assume so. It was...
DV: Was it published in English?
AB: No, it was in Spanish. It was completely in Spanish. That makes sense. If you haven't seen it, the Qué Pasa is still published till this day. But they have, you know, they have shrunk. It's not what it used to be. When I started working for Qué Pasa, I remember the owner, Mr. Isasi, if he was, if he sees this, I hope he remembers. But when I, when he hired me, he told me something along the lines that we're going to be big, we're going to be growing all around the East Coast, we're going to be the name in Spanish for people to try to reach the Hispanic community. He had big plans, big ambitious plans. But the newspaper business, you know, has been shrinking and shrinking and shrinking because of social media and because of the internet. And I'm not, I think it was I never really have a plan to get into the new digital age. I think very few, actually very few traditional media have a plan to transition successfully. I mean, reading newspapers was so common, you know, it was such a powerful means. I remember my grandfather, God bless his soul, reading, he had subscription to two different newspapers in Mariana, local newspapers. And he would read them all. Getting the paper, reading the paper every day was like, you know, part of your routine. It was, it's incredible how that has changed over the years. So, anyway, so, Qué Pasa was published in Spanish, still is published in Spanish, but it's not what it used to be. It's much smaller. It has probably, I mean, half the number of employees that it used to have. I'm not sure if they have radio, because that was also a good one to punch. They had the newspaper and also radio. It was AM radio. But they also had another means of--. Anyway.
DV: Well, how do you feel about that time? Before we move on to what you did after. Do you feel proud that you shared all those stories, and if you can share them.
AB: Yeah, of course. Of course. I think we; I hope we accomplished something. And it is important what we do because I was there, you know. I think they have a reporter now. It's a young woman. She interviewed me recently, two or three weeks ago. And I don't know, I feel like, I don't know what's her arrangement with the paper, but having somebody on the ground, it's very, very important because sometimes that's the only way that they will learn how things are happening locally that affect specifically the Hispanic community. I'm going to give you an example of what I'm trying to talk about. It was a year ago, no, I think it was two years ago. Here in Winston-Salem, there was a huge fire. It was a fertilizer plant that caught fire. And the fertilizer, they have a lot of fertilizer, you know, in their warehouses. And that fertilizer plant started in the 1940s, and at the time it was, you know, way outside the city, but now there are houses all around that factory, that plant. So, when it caught fire, there was a very big, I mean, very real possibility of the plant exploding and blowing up everything around it, several, probably several miles around it. I mean, I don't know how many, but it was a real possibility that this would explode and cause massive damage, not only to the plant, but the houses around it. There was one mile, if you live one mile around the plant, you were ordered to evacuate. I mean, that's how this was a real issue and a really big concern. And because of that evacuation thing, people, you know, police officers and firefighters were knocking on people's doors, and apparently there was some, a communication issue, a communication problem with the Hispanics that live there. And I am, I was told, I mean, I haven't heard this firsthand, but I was told that many Hispanics that only speak Spanish or very little English only found out about this fire when they saw it in Univision, which is in Miami. So, that is the importance of having a local media that is read, that is widely circulated, so that these things of people don't have to, you know, rely on it. I think Qué Pasa was one of those media, but I think it has fallen a little bit into, it is not, Qué Pasa is not what it used to be, I don't think, when I was there. But it's not only Qué Pasa's problem, right. It's also a little bit of the decline in general of newspapers. And I don't think they have quite found out the way to transition. I think very, actually very few newspapers have actually been able to transition successfully from traditional newspapers into the digital media, right.
DV: I understand. And then how did you transition from being a reporter for five years here, much longer in Mexico, to working for the City of Winston-Salem?
AB: Well, I found about this opportunity by chance also, but being a reporter facilitated this because the person that was here was a young man, very, very, a fine young man called Carlos, Carlos Bocanegra. He's the son of a very, also a very esteemed pastor here in Winston-Salem. His church was actually in Kernersville. But anyway, I was just looking for stories, you know, and sometimes you don't have nothing, absolutely nothing, all you have to do is call, cold calling the sources that in the past of new stories for you. So, I think it was January of that year, 2011, when I was, and it was January because, and you know January, the first days of the year, the first two weeks of the year are terrible for the news cycle because there's really nothing going on, right. Everybody's on vacation, everybody's returning and kind of transitioning into--. So I called him and said, hey, you have something that I don't know, is there something that you guys are doing that I need to know, to print about? And he told me something like, well, I'm moving out. You are? Yeah, I'm going to this position is going to be vacant. Oh, really? So that's how I knew the position was vacant because I was really not looking, right.
DV: And what was the position?
AB: The position was human relations analyst. It's the same position that I have now. It is just that after so many years of being here, and the department grew too from the Human Relations, and now it's Human Relations slash Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. So, we grew from five people to twelve. So, because of that, I was given the opportunity to be a program manager. So, I'm like, it's a little bit of a supervisory responsibility. But it's basically the same position, although then, I mean, I'm still doing the same things that I always did, which is landlord-tenant mediation. And now it's fair housing complaints. But now I have that added responsibility. I am responsible for the language access coordinators. So anyway, so that's how I found out about this opportunity. And I asked Carlos, if I were to be interested, what do I need to do? Do I have to apply and everything? And I did. And they interviewed me, and I ended up being selected for the position. And that was twelve years ago, in 2011. So, that's the story of how I am here.
DV: Wow, time flies.
AB: Yeah.
DV: Tell us some highlights about your twelve years in the City of Winston-Salem.
AB: Sure.
DV: I think some of the highlights could be, when it comes to Fair Housing Discrimination Commission. Remember that these complaints are supposed to be confidential, right. But I think one of the first cases I had was a massive case. It was a trailer home place. And the majority, I mean, probably 95 or 90% plus of the campus were Hispanics, for the most part Mexican. And they had a problem with the water, the way it was being billed, because they were getting their water billed monthly, not bi-monthly, like if you have your water here from the city of Winston-Salem. It's actually called Forsyth County slash Winston-Salem Utilities, something like that. Anyway, you are billed bimonthly. But in this case, you are billed, in the case of the these trailer homes, they were billed monthly. And some of the bills that they were receiving were $600, $400, even $200. And you're talking about twelve years ago. So, it was something. And they – we received – because of that issue with the water, we received something like thirty-two complaints from that place. So that was an interesting case.
DV: So, you mediated that.
AB: In some cases, there was no, nothing really there. Because in some cases, the allegation was that the white people that lived in the building were not paying water at all, and that was not the truth. They were paying water, but they were not paying as much as them. Some of them we were able to mediate, you know, they received some type of reimbursement of some kind. And some of them were causes, as we say in the business, meaning that I thought there was something there that could account for a discriminatory action. That was my very first case. Over the years, what other cases I could mention? An interesting one that I had was of a woman that said that she had a disability. And even the slightest of smells, it was too much for her to bear. She could not, I mean, there's a disability with the senses, with your sense of smell. And she said that somebody was smoking, in a non-smoking area. And she thought it was her neighbors, but there were seventeen different apartments in the building, and they were all connected. So that was a, it was very difficult to say, defend definitively. She had cameras and some people were out. Some people, she clearly saw people smoking, you know, would go in and they were smoking, they would throw-in a non-smoking area. So, that was a difficult case. But in the end, I said that I didn't think there was something there that could account for discriminatory action regarding that with them. Anyway, the interesting thing of this job is that I had to learn really everything in here and I had to learn also the history. I call it the racialized history of the United States and it's something that they don't, the United States in general don't openly broadcast, right, but that was the racialized history of the United States, how the segregation was something that happened in this country. And it was real, and it was in your face, and it was ugly. And I did not know that, you know, until I came here to study that. And it's part of the history of what we do now, right. All those, all that history, especially with housing. I had to learn that. I mean, some people that have lived here, you know, live through it, you know, and they were in segregated housing. They were in segregated schools. Even hospitals were segregated. I mean, everything was ruled truly. I mean, that was how it used to be. It is not now like that anymore. The discrimination is not in your face. It's not ugly. It's not, you know, it's not obvious. But I sometimes feel that discrimination is a little bit like, I don't know, viruses in your computer. That's what I think. Just because you haven't had an infection in two years, that doesn't mean it's never going to happen ever. You still have to keep your guard against it. And the way it happens, it can change. I always tell people that in Facebook, I had a famous case, that was two or three years ago, probably more than that, but before the pandemic. The National Fair Housing Alliance is a big, big fair housing organization in the United States based in Washington, realized that if you were an advertiser on Facebook, you could choose who could see your information, probably who could see your ads, right. So, they could choose if you liked, and I'm thinking of the actual things that happened in that case, you could choose the people that like Telemundo Deportes. You didn't want them to see your ad. You could click that and block them. In another category that they were blocking, that you could block, was those who were US veterans. If you had a house for rent, you could block them too. I don't want veterans from seeing my commercial, my ad. You have to pay, right, for every one of those restrictions, but you could, you know, laser focus, let's say, your ad. And the National Fair Housing Alliance thought that that was, that could be discriminatory, right, because if you block people that have, that have liked Telemundo Deportes, what, who do you think likes Telemundo Deportes? Somebody that probably looks like you and me, right? And they thought that was discriminatory. And of course, if you block those people that say that they are veterans of the U.S. Army, why are you doing that? I think because they don't want to see somebody that appears on a wheelchair on their property, right, or somebody that has PTSD, right. And anyway, if Facebook eventually paid the Fair Housing National Fair Housing Alliance two or three million a year, I'm sorry, two or three million dollars, perhaps five. I don't know. You can watch this online, this is not privileged information, it's public now and it's online. But this is just to say that these things, even though discrimination is not ugly in your face anymore, or in the law, it still can find ways to happen. And we have to keep ourselves, keep our guards [up] against it.
DV: In your mediatory role for the city, have you had to, have you encountered a lot of that discrimination and have you had to address it?
AB: I have never encountered somebody that acknowledges or admits to me openly, yes, I deny that housing because he's Black or because he's Hispanic. Every time, in every single one of my investigations that I have entered, they say, “no, I'm not a racist. I'm not, no, this is awful. This is terrible. This is a mistake. And I'm the victim.” I've never had ever in twelve years, nobody has admitted to me, yes, I did it because I don't want, and you put in the blank. I don't want Black people in my property, or I don't want Hispanics in my property. I don't want Asians in my property, or I don't want people that use wheelchairs in my property. No one has ever said that to me, if that's what you're wondering. So, you have to dig, you really have to investigate, and you have to try to find that evidence that you need if you want to close the case, right. And of course, if you cannot find any evidence, you're going to say, sorry, I have had some cases, especially with Hispanics, it's interesting being how our people that belong to our culture, for the most part, they say, nah, no, don't get me involved, I don't want, no, no, I'm not going to participate. Some witnesses, I think at least I had two cases in the past where I thought this was leaning towards a discriminatory action, but the witnesses were like, no, I'm not going to do it, I'm sorry. I’m not going to court. I don't know, I'm, I mean, that's sometimes the attitude that I find from Hispanics. They don't, just don't want to do it, even if they have documents already. Sometimes, I think in one case, this lady was a citizen, but it's the same thing. I mean, look, I just got my citizenship. I really don't want to mess with this. I'm sorry, I mean, and the other lady was a legal resident, and she told me, this was two different cases, of course, and she told me something like, look, I'm going to ask my husband, let's see what you think, and I'll get back in touch with you.
DV: Do you think there's some distrust of power structures, local governments that kind of prevents folks from wanting to come forward?
AB: I don't know. That is always like a, I think it's a stereotype. I think the reality, or the reason is more complicated than that. But I think in general, if you're a foreigner and Hispanic, that's probably what you're going to choose to do. Look, I'm sorry, thank you, no. But if you were born here in the United States, I think those are the Hispanics that have, they don't have that fear whatsoever. They are more willing to engage in activism, I think. It's not, this is also a stereotype, right I’m pretty sure there are some foreigners and probably some undocumented individuals that are really active and they will go where trouble is and will try to, you know, do their best to address what they believe is an unjust situation. But I think in my experience, that is how you can tell, right, if they're a foreigner, if they were born outside the United States and are here working, even if they have documents, they're going to say, no, thank you, but no. I'll find ways, or we'll find ways to deal with this, but no. But it's different if, with the children that are already born here. They are the ones, I think, that are already active, that embrace activism because they don't have that fear of, they're going to kick me out, right. I think that is, I could summarize my experience that way.
DV: Okay. Are there any other experiences you want to share?
AB: I think those are the ones with mediation cases that also we could go on, you know, in twelve years.
DV: So, what were some challenges that you felt like followed you or you had to navigate through? Were there any large challenges that you had to overcome?
AB: Probably the challenges have been, first, since we did not grow up with this system, we have to learn the system, how it works. In our countries, I don't think there are housing authorities, for instance, right, where people receive vouchers to pay for rent. That's something that's an American thing almost completely, right. So, that was where I had to learn that, and I had to navigate that thing. And I mean, and even the discrimination part, I mean, I'm pretty sure in our countries, there are no discrimination laws like the ones that we have here in the United States. So, it's, the challenge has always been the system, learning the system and learning how the system works because you cannot rely on your experience, and you cannot rely on your memory of how it was when you were growing up. You don't have that, so you have to-- that's one of the challenges that I have. And another challenge, of course, is the language. Sometimes people, even to this day, will claim or complain that they can't really understand me. They were like, what? What do you say? Can you please repeat that to me? Speak louder or slower because I can't understand what you're saying. It doesn't happen often, but still happens and that is frustrating when people tell you that. I'm going to tell you also two experiences. There was one time when I was, I mean I just grabbed the phone, and I said my name and my position because that's what you're supposed to do when you pick up the phone. And this woman said, the first thing she said is, can I talk to an American? Like that. And another time it was an individual, it was a guy that said, I don't know why the City of Winston-Salem hires people that can't speak English. And, wow, he hangs up the phone on me.
DV: Wow.
AB: Yeah, so that's another challenge. The language can be challenging, even though I feel like now, I think I feel like I'm okay and I can understand them. Even when you find people that have this very thick Southern accent, that could be, that used to be such a challenge, just try to understand them. But now it's okay. I think I'm much better than that. And in reality, since I have not lived in any other part of the United States, it's not a challenge either because that's the various accented English that I hear is the southern accent. And, you know, you're much, much more used to hear it now than after all these years.
DV: Okay. Now, back on those challenges, how did you square them away in your head? How do you think about them? You navigated through, I would say, some discrimination for your accent. So did you just say, okay, we just move on? Or did you address that in any other way.
AB: There's no-- it's part of the things that you have to brush off. You cannot hang on to it and you cannot, you know, stay with it. I mean, it is really no point, and it could be toxic. So, it's okay. I mean, it's water under the bridge, as they say here, it came and go, and you keep on going. There is no way you will find perhaps those attitudes every now and then, but for the most part I think, I really believe the United States is a very progressive nation in that sense and of course we cannot say every single American is that way. There's not such thing, right, but I think the United States is, like in many other fields, is at the forefront of these social issues. It's not perfect. Probably it will never be perfect. But they are trying, and that's what you trying to keep all these things in perspective. A few individuals will challenge your notions of what I just told you, right. And they're going to be backwards and they're going to be ignorant in many ways. But you cannot really, the totality of the actions of the United States of America leads you to think into a different direction, even though it is not uniform, and it is not equal. Progress, it will never be equal and uniform for every single one of the individuals, right. But we just have to keep chugging at it. In various circles, I have said this, in 1538, something like that, there was a Spanish bishop that wrote a letter saying that the natives of the Americas were slaves, in a way, in so much way, a natura. That's the expression he wrote. I mean, so they are there for the taking, right. The natives are there for us, just like the plants and just like the animals are in the land. They were just part of the same possibility. Now, fast forward that three hundred years and we have the Civil War in the United States, right. And then one hundred years after that, we still, we get the, in 1968, the Fair Housing Act, three years before in 1965, the Voting Rights Act. So, what I always say to people is, I mean, why, I mean, this is a train that has been going on like this for four hundred years. What makes you think that it's going to completely stop and we're going to dismantle this in fifty. I mean this is something that's going to take probably centuries probably our grandchildren will start seeing the fruits of this labor it's not going to stop in a generation or two this is something that is ingrained in our psyches and so that's the perspective that I try to tell people. Some people say no this is never going to change. And I'm like well perhaps it's not going to change in our lifetimes, but this will change eventually. Somebody else said well we're probably going to have, we will need an exogenous event to make us, yeah, probably the rise of the machines is going to make us, you know, a terminator type of event that will tell, yeah, let's unite. I don't care, yeah, you're Muslim, you're Black, I don't care, look at, what the machines are doing to us. I hope we never see that world, right. It will be apocalyptic. But I tend to think that that vision is probably right. There's going to be an exogenous event that will make us see the foolishness of this separation of humanity, right, of this categorization of humanity into level of worthiness based on your external appearance. There was probably a time when that was perhaps necessary, but we eventually, it is all going to be superfluous, is going to be unnecessary, is going to be ridiculous, right. Eventually, I think it's going to be like that. I don't think it's going to happen in the next 50 years, but it will happen. I firmly believe that.
DV: With that positive thoughts, not the rise of the machines part [laughter], with those positive thoughts and bringing it back to your experience, what would you say were some factors that have helped you along the way in your life and career?
AB: But it is true that if you have a work ethic, a hard work ethic, the results will be there. And I think that is the basis and foundation for everything you do. I've always said that yes, sometimes relationships are important or matter, but they only matter if you have something to show. And if you have results, to back it up, it's easier to have someone to vouch for you and to make a recommendation. I always think that it starts with you and the work that you do and your perspective. And you have to take responsibility of your actions for everything you cannot be blaming other people for what happens to you maybe it is the truth that in some cases other people may be to blame for one or two events in your life, but in general you need to take control, I hope I am answering your question that is my philosophy, my, I mean, it starts like that. Sadly, I'm seeing some people, you know, online and on social media that says that it is a lie, that if you work hard, you're never going to get anywhere because everything is already decided by the elites and the white people of this nation or something like that. And I truly and completely disagree with that. You need to work hard. And if you do, positive results will take place in your life, even if those positive results are not the ones that you imagined in the first place or of a lesser magnitude that you were expecting, but they will happen. I mean, and if you have, I think that philosophy is actually dangerous. The thing that, no, it doesn't matter what, how much you do, you're never going to get out of your bog or your, whatever situation is that you're in. I think it's a dangerous attitude and anyway, that's what I think. I hope I have answered your question.
DV: Yeah. Thank you. Well, to conclude, what do you hope for the future? Be it for your own personal life or professional life or for your community?
AB: In my personal life, I hope I still have a job in twenty years. Hopefully it's going to be--.
DV: Before the machines take your job right.
AB: Yeah, either this job or a better paid job than the one that I have. I hope there's still a social security net by the time I retire. I certainly hope that. About the community, I think eventually the community will grow. Here in North Carolina, there are already a lot of Hispanics that were born in this land. And they will come to be, you know, leaders in their own community. And not only in the Hispanic community, but they will be leaders, period, of all the community. I think that's going to happen. And I hope that at some point when we think about Hispanics, we don't think it under that slant of poverty and disadvantage and disenfranchisement. And when we think of Hispanics, we're going to be a true engine of the society. We will not need, you know, society's pity to get along. Not to get along, to move along, I hope that eventually that's how it's going to be. And we will not need intermediaries, right, to reach the society as a whole. We will not need a spokesperson or somebody that speaks for us. And we will be able to, you know, to just be just like every other community here that doesn't need special dispensations to, I think that's how eventually it's going to be. Because I think most of what we are here to do is working, right? And that's what we came here for, to work and to build a solid and stable future for our children and our families in general. And eventually, I think it will happen, and we will come to be very mature, like in other parts of the United States, right. In Florida and in California and Texas, where there is no more any dissonance, right. It's not either Hispanic or American, you know, and you can be, you will be able to be American even though you're Hispanic and there will not be this bifurcated perception of you eventually that will come to pass and that will, and it will be naturally embraced by society as a whole, I think, and I hope that's what the future will bring to us all.
DV: Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts and your experiences with us, Adolfo.
AB: Sure, absolutely, my pleasure. I hope it is my contribution to this wonderful project that you guys are doing.
DV: Thank you, and see you next time.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Transcribers: Sofia Godoy & Daniel Velásquez
Interview Date: 2023 May 26
Date of Transcription: 2023 August 7 / Revisions: 2023 October 19
Es: Transcripción
Daniel Velásquez: Okay, I am Daniel Velásquez. I'm here with Adolfo Briceño, who is Program Manager of Human Relations and Diversity, Equity and Inclusion at the City of Winston-Salem. Today is May 26th of 2023, and we are conducting this via Zoom. Adolfo, thank you so much for being with us today and for sharing your story.
Adolfo Briceño: My pleasure, Daniel. My pleasure.
DV: Okay, Adolfo, to get started, could you tell me about your personal background, where you were born and raised, any early life experiences that you want to share?
AB: Yeah, sure. I was born in Mérida, Yucatán in Mexico. This is on the Yucatán Peninsula. I was born according to my birth certificate, right. Neither of us has a memory of that event, that momentous event, right, but my birth certificate says that I was born on the sixth of June 1972 in Mérida, Yucatán, which has been the, it is still, it has been traditional in the state capital of Yucatán. So, I was born there. My father has my same name. You know, in our countries, we, so he's Adolfo Enrique Briceño Acosta. That's my father's name. My mother's is Jader Lisbeth Medina Cano. Those were my parents. My father was always like a public employee. He worked for several state and federal agencies in Yucatán or in Mexico. And my mother was a teacher, schoolteacher, I think elementary school teacher. But she quit completely when I was born. I'm a twin brother, so I have a twin that he still lives in the Yucatán. My mother tragically passed away when I was five years old. It was a car accident. We were all in the vehicle, by the way. And so, I have very little memories of her, unfortunately. I don't know, growing up in Yucatán was always a very--. I never knew that, but Yucatán has, it's kind of isolated, you know, it's a peninsula, so it juts out into the sea. And because of that, we've always, it was always difficult access. I mean, I remember at some point--well I don't remember this, right--but I know that, that the connections, the highways that join Yucatán and with the rest of the country are fairly new. I'm talking about 1970s when they started. The, maybe the international airport started in 1969. So, this created, this kind of isolation created something of a unique perspective, a unique cultural identity for those people that live in Yucatán. We have a distinct accent from the rest of the Mexicans. We say things that only are said in Yucatán for the most part. And Yucatán, because of that isolation, used to look more into Cuba, and that's why I think that's why we have some, we have some words and expressions and sayings that are more from Cuba and the Caribbean than of Yucatán, I mean, the rest of Mexico. And I think that also plays into this unique identity that we have, people from Yucatán. I lived there all my life in Mérida until I was about thirty-six years old. Well, in reality, I lived four years in Cancun, too. Cancun is also in the Yucatán Peninsula, but in a neighboring state, but it's more or less the same thing, you know. So, I really didn't have any other experience until I came to the United States here in North Carolina, in Winston-Salem. And I have stayed here the whole time. So, my whole U.S. experience is Winston-Salem, here in North Carolina.
DV: Before you came to Winston-Salem, you were educated in Mexico, and you worked there for a while, correct?
AB: Yes, of course. I mean, I lived there. I went to the university, the state university in Yucatán, which is called the Autonomous, the Yucatán Autonomous University. I think that would be the correct translation. La Universidad Autónoma de Yucatán. It was also a very respected academic institution because people from neighboring states would come to study to Yucatán. So, I studied there and I had a Bachelor in economics. That's what I ended up studying. And upon graduation, right out of college, let's say, I started working for a bank. And that's my Cancun experience. It was a national bank called Banamex. Even when I was still working for Banamex, it was bought by the Citi Group. And I think they're still part of the Citi Group. So, I worked there four years as a mortgage analyst. That was my official title. And after that, I was kind of disillusioned. How do you say that, of the banking experience--.
DV: Disillusioned?
AB: Right, so, I started, I decided to take a completely different direction and I went to work for a newspaper. And that decision was very--. It's interesting how things happen because that decision in the end brought me to the United States, I think. I work for a newspaper in Yucatán called El Diario de Yucatán. It's one of the oldest newspapers in the Yucatán and very respected, too, because at the start of the paper, several, what do you call it, goons from the regime tried to destroy the paper. This was early 1900s, but they destroyed the presses. Goons, thugs--.
DV: This was during the Porfiriato period?
AB: Yeah by the regime, went inside the paper and destroyed the printing presses twice in five or six years, I don't know. The editor of that newspaper, in 1926, he was murdered inside the newspaper. Those were interesting times of political upheaval in Yucatán and in Mexico in general. And because of that, the paper had, until this day, has a lot of, what's the word, a lot of sway, you know, with the population. I'm looking for a different word. But I couldn't find it.
DV: Influence, perhaps?
AB: Influence, we could say influence. It was a different word what I was looking for, but you get my meaning. It's one of the leading newspapers in readership in the Yucatán. And I worked for them for about four years, another four years. And while I was working there, it was interesting how all these things happened. I knew--. I was, you know, new, relatively new, two or three years working into the paper. And a very experienced reporter called in sick that day, and they sent me to one of the offices. It was a press conference for one of the conservative parties in Mexico, PAN, El Partido de Acción Nacional, if you are familiar with it. At the end of that conference, the, how to say this, it's not the marketing, let's say the press guy from the state party approached me and said, I think I know you. Now, when I was still in college, I had a very, very brief stint of two or three months, perhaps six months, working at a different local newspaper and I was just trying to pay the bills, you know, or to have a little bit of money as I was a student. But I didn't like the, I mean, it really was taking me, taking a lot of time from my studying so I quit. So anyway, from that experience, he remembered me, this guy, and said, did you want to go to the United States to work? Sure, what do I have to do? He gave me a business card. And that business card was from the Executive Director of Qué Pasa, which at the time was Francisco Cámara. I've never met Francisco in my life, but Francisco was from Yucatán, from Mérida. And this guy tells me, yeah, he’s, my friend. He called me yesterday. He's looking for a reporter, but he needs someone that speaks English. You speak English, don't you? Yeah, I speak English. Okay, call him. He gave me a business card. Don't you think that's fate? It's a very interesting, interesting coincidence, you call it, whatever you want to call it. It's almost fate. Now, I did not call the guy immediately, to be completely honest with you. I called him like a year later.
DV: Wow.
AB: Yeah, but he, I explained the whole thing that I just explained to you, and I told him, do you still think I can work from there? And he says, look, I really don't need someone there, but I might in the future. Why don't you come here? And I did. I came there five days, and I worked, you know, he just wanted to see where I was with writing. And I left, and he said, okay, thank you very much, and they paid everything. They paid my stay, they paid the ticket plane. All I had to pay during this time was my meals. And he said, well, thank you. We'll call you. And I knew there was no promise at all to--.
DV: You went back home.
AB: I went back home, yeah, I did. And then about six months into the experience, after that, I texted him and said, hey, something happened, do you think there's still a chance? And I think he had completely forgotten about me. And he said something in the email. You know something? This is funny. But my reporter just told me yesterday that he's quitting. Yeah, yeah, let's do it. Come in, and it happened.
DV: Wow.
AB: I was very lucky how I came here because they sponsored me a work visa. And I arrived here in Winston-Salem in November. The fourth or sixth of November, I cannot remember now the date.
DV: What year?
AB: 2006.
DV: So, had you been looking to come to the United States or what was really behind you reaching out to them?
AB: I thought it was going to be a good opportunity and I knew that I would get paid more than I was going to pay there so I was pretty much the story so yeah it was interesting.
DV: Was it difficult to leave family behind?
AB: Well, I was single at the time. So, I never, that was the easy part. If I had been married and with children, probably would have been a little bit more problematic. But I was single. I mean, there was nothing really holding me there, except, you know, the friends that I left and lifelong friends and I'm still in contact with them, right. But it's different, you know, when you live in a different country.
DV: What about your twin brother?
AB: He's still there. He's still working there in Mérida. He's still there. He's still there. And my family, everybody's there still. The only one that's here, of the immediate family, let's say, it's me. I'm the only one that came here. So that's the story.
DV: Do you go back often? Do you miss it?
AB: I don't know. Of course, I miss it a lot. I miss the people that are left there, and I miss the food. And yeah, of course, I should be going, I hope, at the end of this year. And it's going to be the first time I go since 2015, so.
DV: Wow.
AB: It's been a while since the last time I was there, yeah.
DV: Wow.
AB: But I think I'm hoping I will be able to go this time.
DV: How was it after you started living here in 2006 and working here?
AB: Well, it was, I--. It was interesting, but I did not know that Qué Pasa was, well, I knew because I had been, they tested me right at the start of that year. But I knew--. I thought Qué Pasa was a newspaper because I think that's how they advertised themselves, Qué Pasa newspaper. But it was not a newspaper, it was a weekly magazine. So, I was hoping, or I thought that when I was here, I was going to be working, you know, in a newspaper when you work every day in a newspaper, you know how that is. But in a magazine, weekly magazine is a little bit more laid back because you don't have to come out tomorrow, right. So, that was better, I guess, in a sense you can, you really have the sense that you're having a little bit of a life. Whereas if you're in a newspaper working every day and you every day have to produce and produce and produce, I mean your whole life really revolves around that. In the weekly magazine it's the same thing, but you know that the cycle is a little bit more extended. So that was different. And of course, the things that you find here, I never knew snow. I experienced snow here. What else? I really spoke English a lot, I think, enough to have a communication with people. But I discovered that my accent was awful. Still, we all have an accent, right. I think this accent is never going to go away. But I think it's a lot better than what it was. In such a way that I think people understand a little bit better what I'm trying to say. So that was different too. I don't know. The food before was different.
DV: What about working for Qué Pasa? You worked there for about five years, right?
AB: Five years. About five years.
DV: Do you have any highlights or anecdotes you'd like to share?
AB: Let me think. It's been so long now. I did that for so many years, five, that even today I have some people that remember me from those years and will tell me, hi, hello, this is me. You remember me? No, I'm sorry, ma'am or sir, I don't. And apparently, I did a story about them in those years, but I really can't remember. When you're doing that, it's like, I'm going to give you an analogy: Peter and I, in this movie called The Bonfire of the Vanities, if you have never seen that movie, watch it, it's really good, it's with Tom Hanks and Bruce Willis. In this movie, Bruce Willis is a reporter. And Tom Hanks is a financier, disgraced financier, and Bruce Willis is doing a story about him. And when they finally meet, Tom Hanks says, why are you doing this to me? And Bruce Willis says something like, doing this to you, not doing anything to you, you're just dinner. Tomorrow I will not remember what I ate. So that's the analogy that I can give you about those stories. This is just breakfast and dinner. Two or three years from now we will not remember. And of course, it's awful to say it that way, but it is kind of true because you don't have a choice. You have to keep producing stories. And once you produce a story, you forget it and you go to the next one. That's more or less the cycle of reporting.
DV: And you meet so many people over so many years.
AB: I'm pretty sure it was a lot of people over the years, in those years, the stories that stuck with me were about those people that were deported, for instance. Those were very, very interesting stories. There was a woman that I interviewed in Greensboro, and I think all her, I think she had lived in the United States for years, probably when she was a little girl, I really don't remember now. But I mean, she started, you know the story, they started here, the elementary, middle, high school, everything, but she was undocumented. And she was caught somehow, she was even married to an American, and they were trying to, I don't know, arrange her situation and something happened. They discover her situation, and she was arrested and sent to an immigration detention center. I don't know if she was deported or not. I think she was not. I think she was able to pay the bond to her family and she was released and that's when I interviewed her somehow. I don't know how I got in touch with her, but anyway, what I remember about this woman is that she told me that she was shackled, like from the neck, the, you know, the wrist and the ankles, and that's how they would transfer her to, went to her immigration hearing or whatever. Shackled, in chains, she felt awful. And I'm like, she was saying I'm not a criminal, I'm not, but anyway, those immigration stories really stick with you. There was another story that I did of, this was a waiter in Greensboro. Well, I didn't interview him because he was actually deported. He was Mexican, but I talked to some of his buddies, and he's saying, of course he was undocumented, right, but he went to a park in Greensboro after hours, after he left the restaurant, I don't know what time it was. You know, it was dark at night. But it is those parks in Greensboro that says, there's a sign, I went to the park myself, you know, and there's a sign that says that you cannot enter after when it's dark. But he didn't know any better and he was just walking, he just was trying to clear his mind for whatever, he was just walking in the park. And I don't know, there were houses right in front of the park and all around the park there were houses. It was like a residential neighborhood and probably somebody called the police. And the police came, and they asked him. He spoke very little English. He didn't have an ID with him. He was arrested. And it was in those days where, in those Bush years where the 287g, I don't know if you remember that law where the sheriff's department was forced to, I think they were forced into collaboration with immigration authorities--.
DV: ICE.
AB: With ICE, right. And he ended up being deported, this young man. And of course, the people, his friends, the ones that I talked to. So, he was deported because he was walking in the park. That's one of the stories that I had. I'm pretty sure that there are many, many more there that I don't remember now. But those immigration stories were always big, big, big, every time I was there.
DV: Was the readership of Qué Pasa mostly Hispanic folks in Winston-Salem?
AB: I would assume so. It was...
DV: Was it published in English?
AB: No, it was in Spanish. It was completely in Spanish. That makes sense. If you haven't seen it, the Qué Pasa is still published till this day. But they have, you know, they have shrunk. It's not what it used to be. When I started working for Qué Pasa, I remember the owner, Mr. Isasi, if he was, if he sees this, I hope he remembers. But when I, when he hired me, he told me something along the lines that we're going to be big, we're going to be growing all around the East Coast, we're going to be the name in Spanish for people to try to reach the Hispanic community. He had big plans, big ambitious plans. But the newspaper business, you know, has been shrinking and shrinking and shrinking because of social media and because of the internet. And I'm not, I think it was I never really have a plan to get into the new digital age. I think very few, actually very few traditional media have a plan to transition successfully. I mean, reading newspapers was so common, you know, it was such a powerful means. I remember my grandfather, God bless his soul, reading, he had subscription to two different newspapers in Mariana, local newspapers. And he would read them all. Getting the paper, reading the paper every day was like, you know, part of your routine. It was, it's incredible how that has changed over the years. So, anyway, so, Qué Pasa was published in Spanish, still is published in Spanish, but it's not what it used to be. It's much smaller. It has probably, I mean, half the number of employees that it used to have. I'm not sure if they have radio, because that was also a good one to punch. They had the newspaper and also radio. It was AM radio. But they also had another means of--. Anyway.
DV: Well, how do you feel about that time? Before we move on to what you did after. Do you feel proud that you shared all those stories, and if you can share them.
AB: Yeah, of course. Of course. I think we; I hope we accomplished something. And it is important what we do because I was there, you know. I think they have a reporter now. It's a young woman. She interviewed me recently, two or three weeks ago. And I don't know, I feel like, I don't know what's her arrangement with the paper, but having somebody on the ground, it's very, very important because sometimes that's the only way that they will learn how things are happening locally that affect specifically the Hispanic community. I'm going to give you an example of what I'm trying to talk about. It was a year ago, no, I think it was two years ago. Here in Winston-Salem, there was a huge fire. It was a fertilizer plant that caught fire. And the fertilizer, they have a lot of fertilizer, you know, in their warehouses. And that fertilizer plant started in the 1940s, and at the time it was, you know, way outside the city, but now there are houses all around that factory, that plant. So, when it caught fire, there was a very big, I mean, very real possibility of the plant exploding and blowing up everything around it, several, probably several miles around it. I mean, I don't know how many, but it was a real possibility that this would explode and cause massive damage, not only to the plant, but the houses around it. There was one mile, if you live one mile around the plant, you were ordered to evacuate. I mean, that's how this was a real issue and a really big concern. And because of that evacuation thing, people, you know, police officers and firefighters were knocking on people's doors, and apparently there was some, a communication issue, a communication problem with the Hispanics that live there. And I am, I was told, I mean, I haven't heard this firsthand, but I was told that many Hispanics that only speak Spanish or very little English only found out about this fire when they saw it in Univision, which is in Miami. So, that is the importance of having a local media that is read, that is widely circulated, so that these things of people don't have to, you know, rely on it. I think Qué Pasa was one of those media, but I think it has fallen a little bit into, it is not, Qué Pasa is not what it used to be, I don't think, when I was there. But it's not only Qué Pasa's problem, right. It's also a little bit of the decline in general of newspapers. And I don't think they have quite found out the way to transition. I think very, actually very few newspapers have actually been able to transition successfully from traditional newspapers into the digital media, right.
DV: I understand. And then how did you transition from being a reporter for five years here, much longer in Mexico, to working for the City of Winston-Salem?
AB: Well, I found about this opportunity by chance also, but being a reporter facilitated this because the person that was here was a young man, very, very, a fine young man called Carlos, Carlos Bocanegra. He's the son of a very, also a very esteemed pastor here in Winston-Salem. His church was actually in Kernersville. But anyway, I was just looking for stories, you know, and sometimes you don't have nothing, absolutely nothing, all you have to do is call, cold calling the sources that in the past of new stories for you. So, I think it was January of that year, 2011, when I was, and it was January because, and you know January, the first days of the year, the first two weeks of the year are terrible for the news cycle because there's really nothing going on, right. Everybody's on vacation, everybody's returning and kind of transitioning into--. So I called him and said, hey, you have something that I don't know, is there something that you guys are doing that I need to know, to print about? And he told me something like, well, I'm moving out. You are? Yeah, I'm going to this position is going to be vacant. Oh, really? So that's how I knew the position was vacant because I was really not looking, right.
DV: And what was the position?
AB: The position was human relations analyst. It's the same position that I have now. It is just that after so many years of being here, and the department grew too from the Human Relations, and now it's Human Relations slash Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. So, we grew from five people to twelve. So, because of that, I was given the opportunity to be a program manager. So, I'm like, it's a little bit of a supervisory responsibility. But it's basically the same position, although then, I mean, I'm still doing the same things that I always did, which is landlord-tenant mediation. And now it's fair housing complaints. But now I have that added responsibility. I am responsible for the language access coordinators. So anyway, so that's how I found out about this opportunity. And I asked Carlos, if I were to be interested, what do I need to do? Do I have to apply and everything? And I did. And they interviewed me, and I ended up being selected for the position. And that was twelve years ago, in 2011. So, that's the story of how I am here.
DV: Wow, time flies.
AB: Yeah.
DV: Tell us some highlights about your twelve years in the City of Winston-Salem.
AB: Sure.
DV: I think some of the highlights could be, when it comes to Fair Housing Discrimination Commission. Remember that these complaints are supposed to be confidential, right. But I think one of the first cases I had was a massive case. It was a trailer home place. And the majority, I mean, probably 95 or 90% plus of the campus were Hispanics, for the most part Mexican. And they had a problem with the water, the way it was being billed, because they were getting their water billed monthly, not bi-monthly, like if you have your water here from the city of Winston-Salem. It's actually called Forsyth County slash Winston-Salem Utilities, something like that. Anyway, you are billed bimonthly. But in this case, you are billed, in the case of the these trailer homes, they were billed monthly. And some of the bills that they were receiving were $600, $400, even $200. And you're talking about twelve years ago. So, it was something. And they – we received – because of that issue with the water, we received something like thirty-two complaints from that place. So that was an interesting case.
DV: So, you mediated that.
AB: In some cases, there was no, nothing really there. Because in some cases, the allegation was that the white people that lived in the building were not paying water at all, and that was not the truth. They were paying water, but they were not paying as much as them. Some of them we were able to mediate, you know, they received some type of reimbursement of some kind. And some of them were causes, as we say in the business, meaning that I thought there was something there that could account for a discriminatory action. That was my very first case. Over the years, what other cases I could mention? An interesting one that I had was of a woman that said that she had a disability. And even the slightest of smells, it was too much for her to bear. She could not, I mean, there's a disability with the senses, with your sense of smell. And she said that somebody was smoking, in a non-smoking area. And she thought it was her neighbors, but there were seventeen different apartments in the building, and they were all connected. So that was a, it was very difficult to say, defend definitively. She had cameras and some people were out. Some people, she clearly saw people smoking, you know, would go in and they were smoking, they would throw-in a non-smoking area. So, that was a difficult case. But in the end, I said that I didn't think there was something there that could account for discriminatory action regarding that with them. Anyway, the interesting thing of this job is that I had to learn really everything in here and I had to learn also the history. I call it the racialized history of the United States and it's something that they don't, the United States in general don't openly broadcast, right, but that was the racialized history of the United States, how the segregation was something that happened in this country. And it was real, and it was in your face, and it was ugly. And I did not know that, you know, until I came here to study that. And it's part of the history of what we do now, right. All those, all that history, especially with housing. I had to learn that. I mean, some people that have lived here, you know, live through it, you know, and they were in segregated housing. They were in segregated schools. Even hospitals were segregated. I mean, everything was ruled truly. I mean, that was how it used to be. It is not now like that anymore. The discrimination is not in your face. It's not ugly. It's not, you know, it's not obvious. But I sometimes feel that discrimination is a little bit like, I don't know, viruses in your computer. That's what I think. Just because you haven't had an infection in two years, that doesn't mean it's never going to happen ever. You still have to keep your guard against it. And the way it happens, it can change. I always tell people that in Facebook, I had a famous case, that was two or three years ago, probably more than that, but before the pandemic. The National Fair Housing Alliance is a big, big fair housing organization in the United States based in Washington, realized that if you were an advertiser on Facebook, you could choose who could see your information, probably who could see your ads, right. So, they could choose if you liked, and I'm thinking of the actual things that happened in that case, you could choose the people that like Telemundo Deportes. You didn't want them to see your ad. You could click that and block them. In another category that they were blocking, that you could block, was those who were US veterans. If you had a house for rent, you could block them too. I don't want veterans from seeing my commercial, my ad. You have to pay, right, for every one of those restrictions, but you could, you know, laser focus, let's say, your ad. And the National Fair Housing Alliance thought that that was, that could be discriminatory, right, because if you block people that have, that have liked Telemundo Deportes, what, who do you think likes Telemundo Deportes? Somebody that probably looks like you and me, right? And they thought that was discriminatory. And of course, if you block those people that say that they are veterans of the U.S. Army, why are you doing that? I think because they don't want to see somebody that appears on a wheelchair on their property, right, or somebody that has PTSD, right. And anyway, if Facebook eventually paid the Fair Housing National Fair Housing Alliance two or three million a year, I'm sorry, two or three million dollars, perhaps five. I don't know. You can watch this online, this is not privileged information, it's public now and it's online. But this is just to say that these things, even though discrimination is not ugly in your face anymore, or in the law, it still can find ways to happen. And we have to keep ourselves, keep our guards [up] against it.
DV: In your mediatory role for the city, have you had to, have you encountered a lot of that discrimination and have you had to address it?
AB: I have never encountered somebody that acknowledges or admits to me openly, yes, I deny that housing because he's Black or because he's Hispanic. Every time, in every single one of my investigations that I have entered, they say, “no, I'm not a racist. I'm not, no, this is awful. This is terrible. This is a mistake. And I'm the victim.” I've never had ever in twelve years, nobody has admitted to me, yes, I did it because I don't want, and you put in the blank. I don't want Black people in my property, or I don't want Hispanics in my property. I don't want Asians in my property, or I don't want people that use wheelchairs in my property. No one has ever said that to me, if that's what you're wondering. So, you have to dig, you really have to investigate, and you have to try to find that evidence that you need if you want to close the case, right. And of course, if you cannot find any evidence, you're going to say, sorry, I have had some cases, especially with Hispanics, it's interesting being how our people that belong to our culture, for the most part, they say, nah, no, don't get me involved, I don't want, no, no, I'm not going to participate. Some witnesses, I think at least I had two cases in the past where I thought this was leaning towards a discriminatory action, but the witnesses were like, no, I'm not going to do it, I'm sorry. I’m not going to court. I don't know, I'm, I mean, that's sometimes the attitude that I find from Hispanics. They don't, just don't want to do it, even if they have documents already. Sometimes, I think in one case, this lady was a citizen, but it's the same thing. I mean, look, I just got my citizenship. I really don't want to mess with this. I'm sorry, I mean, and the other lady was a legal resident, and she told me, this was two different cases, of course, and she told me something like, look, I'm going to ask my husband, let's see what you think, and I'll get back in touch with you.
DV: Do you think there's some distrust of power structures, local governments that kind of prevents folks from wanting to come forward?
AB: I don't know. That is always like a, I think it's a stereotype. I think the reality, or the reason is more complicated than that. But I think in general, if you're a foreigner and Hispanic, that's probably what you're going to choose to do. Look, I'm sorry, thank you, no. But if you were born here in the United States, I think those are the Hispanics that have, they don't have that fear whatsoever. They are more willing to engage in activism, I think. It's not, this is also a stereotype, right I’m pretty sure there are some foreigners and probably some undocumented individuals that are really active and they will go where trouble is and will try to, you know, do their best to address what they believe is an unjust situation. But I think in my experience, that is how you can tell, right, if they're a foreigner, if they were born outside the United States and are here working, even if they have documents, they're going to say, no, thank you, but no. I'll find ways, or we'll find ways to deal with this, but no. But it's different if, with the children that are already born here. They are the ones, I think, that are already active, that embrace activism because they don't have that fear of, they're going to kick me out, right. I think that is, I could summarize my experience that way.
DV: Okay. Are there any other experiences you want to share?
AB: I think those are the ones with mediation cases that also we could go on, you know, in twelve years.
DV: So, what were some challenges that you felt like followed you or you had to navigate through? Were there any large challenges that you had to overcome?
AB: Probably the challenges have been, first, since we did not grow up with this system, we have to learn the system, how it works. In our countries, I don't think there are housing authorities, for instance, right, where people receive vouchers to pay for rent. That's something that's an American thing almost completely, right. So, that was where I had to learn that, and I had to navigate that thing. And I mean, and even the discrimination part, I mean, I'm pretty sure in our countries, there are no discrimination laws like the ones that we have here in the United States. So, it's, the challenge has always been the system, learning the system and learning how the system works because you cannot rely on your experience, and you cannot rely on your memory of how it was when you were growing up. You don't have that, so you have to-- that's one of the challenges that I have. And another challenge, of course, is the language. Sometimes people, even to this day, will claim or complain that they can't really understand me. They were like, what? What do you say? Can you please repeat that to me? Speak louder or slower because I can't understand what you're saying. It doesn't happen often, but still happens and that is frustrating when people tell you that. I'm going to tell you also two experiences. There was one time when I was, I mean I just grabbed the phone, and I said my name and my position because that's what you're supposed to do when you pick up the phone. And this woman said, the first thing she said is, can I talk to an American? Like that. And another time it was an individual, it was a guy that said, I don't know why the City of Winston-Salem hires people that can't speak English. And, wow, he hangs up the phone on me.
DV: Wow.
AB: Yeah, so that's another challenge. The language can be challenging, even though I feel like now, I think I feel like I'm okay and I can understand them. Even when you find people that have this very thick Southern accent, that could be, that used to be such a challenge, just try to understand them. But now it's okay. I think I'm much better than that. And in reality, since I have not lived in any other part of the United States, it's not a challenge either because that's the various accented English that I hear is the southern accent. And, you know, you're much, much more used to hear it now than after all these years.
DV: Okay. Now, back on those challenges, how did you square them away in your head? How do you think about them? You navigated through, I would say, some discrimination for your accent. So did you just say, okay, we just move on? Or did you address that in any other way.
AB: There's no-- it's part of the things that you have to brush off. You cannot hang on to it and you cannot, you know, stay with it. I mean, it is really no point, and it could be toxic. So, it's okay. I mean, it's water under the bridge, as they say here, it came and go, and you keep on going. There is no way you will find perhaps those attitudes every now and then, but for the most part I think, I really believe the United States is a very progressive nation in that sense and of course we cannot say every single American is that way. There's not such thing, right, but I think the United States is, like in many other fields, is at the forefront of these social issues. It's not perfect. Probably it will never be perfect. But they are trying, and that's what you trying to keep all these things in perspective. A few individuals will challenge your notions of what I just told you, right. And they're going to be backwards and they're going to be ignorant in many ways. But you cannot really, the totality of the actions of the United States of America leads you to think into a different direction, even though it is not uniform, and it is not equal. Progress, it will never be equal and uniform for every single one of the individuals, right. But we just have to keep chugging at it. In various circles, I have said this, in 1538, something like that, there was a Spanish bishop that wrote a letter saying that the natives of the Americas were slaves, in a way, in so much way, a natura. That's the expression he wrote. I mean, so they are there for the taking, right. The natives are there for us, just like the plants and just like the animals are in the land. They were just part of the same possibility. Now, fast forward that three hundred years and we have the Civil War in the United States, right. And then one hundred years after that, we still, we get the, in 1968, the Fair Housing Act, three years before in 1965, the Voting Rights Act. So, what I always say to people is, I mean, why, I mean, this is a train that has been going on like this for four hundred years. What makes you think that it's going to completely stop and we're going to dismantle this in fifty. I mean this is something that's going to take probably centuries probably our grandchildren will start seeing the fruits of this labor it's not going to stop in a generation or two this is something that is ingrained in our psyches and so that's the perspective that I try to tell people. Some people say no this is never going to change. And I'm like well perhaps it's not going to change in our lifetimes, but this will change eventually. Somebody else said well we're probably going to have, we will need an exogenous event to make us, yeah, probably the rise of the machines is going to make us, you know, a terminator type of event that will tell, yeah, let's unite. I don't care, yeah, you're Muslim, you're Black, I don't care, look at, what the machines are doing to us. I hope we never see that world, right. It will be apocalyptic. But I tend to think that that vision is probably right. There's going to be an exogenous event that will make us see the foolishness of this separation of humanity, right, of this categorization of humanity into level of worthiness based on your external appearance. There was probably a time when that was perhaps necessary, but we eventually, it is all going to be superfluous, is going to be unnecessary, is going to be ridiculous, right. Eventually, I think it's going to be like that. I don't think it's going to happen in the next 50 years, but it will happen. I firmly believe that.
DV: With that positive thoughts, not the rise of the machines part [laughter], with those positive thoughts and bringing it back to your experience, what would you say were some factors that have helped you along the way in your life and career?
AB: But it is true that if you have a work ethic, a hard work ethic, the results will be there. And I think that is the basis and foundation for everything you do. I've always said that yes, sometimes relationships are important or matter, but they only matter if you have something to show. And if you have results, to back it up, it's easier to have someone to vouch for you and to make a recommendation. I always think that it starts with you and the work that you do and your perspective. And you have to take responsibility of your actions for everything you cannot be blaming other people for what happens to you maybe it is the truth that in some cases other people may be to blame for one or two events in your life, but in general you need to take control, I hope I am answering your question that is my philosophy, my, I mean, it starts like that. Sadly, I'm seeing some people, you know, online and on social media that says that it is a lie, that if you work hard, you're never going to get anywhere because everything is already decided by the elites and the white people of this nation or something like that. And I truly and completely disagree with that. You need to work hard. And if you do, positive results will take place in your life, even if those positive results are not the ones that you imagined in the first place or of a lesser magnitude that you were expecting, but they will happen. I mean, and if you have, I think that philosophy is actually dangerous. The thing that, no, it doesn't matter what, how much you do, you're never going to get out of your bog or your, whatever situation is that you're in. I think it's a dangerous attitude and anyway, that's what I think. I hope I have answered your question.
DV: Yeah. Thank you. Well, to conclude, what do you hope for the future? Be it for your own personal life or professional life or for your community?
AB: In my personal life, I hope I still have a job in twenty years. Hopefully it's going to be--.
DV: Before the machines take your job right.
AB: Yeah, either this job or a better paid job than the one that I have. I hope there's still a social security net by the time I retire. I certainly hope that. About the community, I think eventually the community will grow. Here in North Carolina, there are already a lot of Hispanics that were born in this land. And they will come to be, you know, leaders in their own community. And not only in the Hispanic community, but they will be leaders, period, of all the community. I think that's going to happen. And I hope that at some point when we think about Hispanics, we don't think it under that slant of poverty and disadvantage and disenfranchisement. And when we think of Hispanics, we're going to be a true engine of the society. We will not need, you know, society's pity to get along. Not to get along, to move along, I hope that eventually that's how it's going to be. And we will not need intermediaries, right, to reach the society as a whole. We will not need a spokesperson or somebody that speaks for us. And we will be able to, you know, to just be just like every other community here that doesn't need special dispensations to, I think that's how eventually it's going to be. Because I think most of what we are here to do is working, right? And that's what we came here for, to work and to build a solid and stable future for our children and our families in general. And eventually, I think it will happen, and we will come to be very mature, like in other parts of the United States, right. In Florida and in California and Texas, where there is no more any dissonance, right. It's not either Hispanic or American, you know, and you can be, you will be able to be American even though you're Hispanic and there will not be this bifurcated perception of you eventually that will come to pass and that will, and it will be naturally embraced by society as a whole, I think, and I hope that's what the future will bring to us all.
DV: Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts and your experiences with us, Adolfo.
AB: Sure, absolutely, my pleasure. I hope it is my contribution to this wonderful project that you guys are doing.
DV: Thank you, and see you next time.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Transcribers: Sofia Godoy & Daniel Velásquez
Interview Date: 2023 May 26
Date of Transcription: 2023 August 7 / Revisions: 2023 October 19
Dublin Core
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Title
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R-1006 -- Briceño, Adolfo.
Description
An account of the resource
Adolfo Briceño is Program Manager of Human Relations and Diversity, Equity and Inclusion at the City of Winston-Salem. He shares his early life experience in Mérida, Mexico, where he was born and educated. Having studied economics, he grew disillusioned with the field while working as a mortgage analyst at a Cancún bank and switched careers to become a journalist for El Diario de Yucatán. During his tenure there, Adolfo was approached with a job opportunity by Qué Pasa, a North Carolina-based newsletter serving the state’s Spanish-speaking community. After five years at Qué Pasa, he again switched careers to work in fair housing investigation and landlord-tenant mediation for the City of Winston-Salem. Though his duties have expanded, he still works in this role today. Adolfo shares several stories from his time as a journalist, including his coverage of deportation, and imparts his thoughts on discrimination in the US drawn from his experiences in local government.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
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No restrictions. Open to research
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2023-05-26
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29334">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
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R1006_Audio.mp3
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/d395d036a45a759c0e9338acd1f4191b.mp3
dc0608b25e33571d2d68ac411402343c
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/7e604f1b7402155c58506cb5329fa4d8.pdf
2393416d34ad440c1d39fe2da19c4e16
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-1005
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
Fecha
2021-07-19
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Thomas, Gayle.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Health Service Workers
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1959
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Tandala -- Ubangi -- Democratic Republic of Congo
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Carrboro -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
N/A
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Therber, Sophie.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
This oral history interview was conducted by Sophie Therber with interviewee Gayle Thomas via Zoom on July 19, 2021. The main focus of this interview is Gayle’s involvement with the Farmworker Health Program and her experience helping farmworkers mitigate the COVID pandemic and extreme weather. Gayle has known from a young age that she wanted to “help poor people,” in her words, and found an opportunity to help Spanish-speaking populations in North Carolina. She shares her personal journey of getting involved in farmworker health, as well as the challenges of including farmworkers in responses to COVID and extreme weather. She emphasizes the importance of the outreach workers who bridge the gap between medical providers and members of the farmworker community. She discusses unique challenges that farmworkers in North Carolina face, such as lack of access to transportation, crowded working conditions, and agricultural exceptionalism promoting a culture of exploitation in their work.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Gayle Thomas by Sophie Therber, 19 July 2021, R-1005, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29331
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
COVID-19; Agricultural workers; Health; Climate Change; Community and social services and programs
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Trabajadores de servicios de salud
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Esta entrevista fue realizada por Sophie Therber con la entrevistada Gayle Thomas vía Zoom el 19 de julio de 2021. El tema principal de la entrevista fue la participación de Gayle en el Programa de Salud del Trabajador Agrícola y su experiencia ayudando a los trabajadores agrícolas a mitigar la pandemia del COVID y el clima extremo. Ella comparte su camino personal de participar en la salud de los trabajadores agrícolas, y también las dificultades de incluir a los trabajadores agrícolas en las respuestas del estado al COVID y el clima extremo. Gayle enfatiza el significado de los trabajadores de alcance quienes cierran la brecha entre los proveedores de salud y los miembros de la comunidad de trabajadores agrícolas. Ella habla sobre los desafíos particulares que los trabajadores agrícolas enfrentan en Carolina del Norte, tal como la falta de acceso al transporte, las condiciones laborales atestadas, y la excepcionalidad agrícola que promueve una cultura de explotación de su trabajo.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Gayle Thomas por Sophie Therber, 19 July 2021, R-1005, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
COVID-19; Trabajadores agrícolas; Salud; cambio climático; Programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Sophie Therber [00:00:01] My name is Sophie Therber, and I'm interviewing Gayle Thomas, today is July 19, 2021, and it is currently 4:09 PM. Thank you so much for agreeing to be interviewed, Gayle, I've been really looking forward to this. So, thank you so much.
Gayle Thomas [00:00:17] You're welcome.
Sophie Therber [00:00:19] Just to start, where are you from and can you tell me a little bit about that area?
Gayle Thomas [00:00:25] Yeah, I was born actually in Congo, which is a country in Africa, but I didn't live there very long. I left when I was about two. My parents were working there as missionary teachers, training Congolese teachers. I grew up in California where I got all my medical training. And then I came to North Carolina right after finishing residency, primarily because my husband got a position on faculty at UNC in the School of Public Health.
Sophie Therber [00:00:59] How long have you been in North Carolina?
Gayle Thomas [00:01:02] Since 1989, so a long time.
Sophie Therber [00:01:06] What was that like to be moving around from Congo to California to North Carolina?
Gayle Thomas [00:01:11] Well, I don't remember the move from Congo because I was only two, but growing up in California was great. Moving to North Carolina was a little bit scary. There's certain, you know, I would say, prejudices about southern states in California, but I was very pleasantly surprised when I moved to Chapel Hill. It had a lot of things that I enjoyed and profited from. I really found that I love the...The seasons are more marked here in North Carolina than they are in California. And I really enjoyed that change in weather and the weather drama. Now that California is in the middle of a big drought and on fire every year, I'm grateful not to be breathing that smoke. So, I love California. I love visiting it. But North Carolina has a lot of the same features: mountains, beaches, beautiful woods. And I feel very fortunate to live in North Carolina.
Sophie Therber [00:02:28] Does your family still live in California?
Gayle Thomas [00:02:31] No. I have some cousins there still, but my parents moved to be with us in Chapel Hill. My mother-in-law moved. My brothers have moved to other states. So, no, I don't have any close family in California anymore.
Sophie Therber [00:02:50] And so you moved to North Carolina, and you were in Chapel Hill. And then what influenced your decision to start working with the Farm Workers Project and the North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services?
Gayle Thomas [00:03:02] Well, I went to medical school because I wanted to take care of poor people. And originally, I was going to be taking care of poor people in Africa. I wanted to go back to Africa, and I married the person I thought wanted to go back to Africa, too. He had worked in Congo for two years as a nutritionist prior to us really beginning our relationship. And that was one reason why we got acquainted, because we had that in common. But then following residency, we decided we needed a few years in the States and he got this job in North Carolina. We weren't planning to stay, but once we came and then we started a family and then it became clear that our family needed to be sort of rooted in one place and not being bounced around the world. So, we decided to stay in North Carolina. I was entertaining the idea of being an academic physician but decided after one year in the Department of Family Medicine that although I really loved that what I loved more was taking care of poor people. So I took a job at the...It was called OCCHS, but it's a federally qualified community health center now called Piedmont Health Services. So I took a job and both Carrboro and Prospect Hill County Health Center and I began to get Spanish-speaking patients. So, I had studied Spanish in California, realizing that I would need that in medicine in California, and I did need that in med school and residency. And then when I came to North Carolina, I thought, "well, I'm not going to speak Spanish to North Carolina in 1989." But that was just as the influx of Spanish speakers began. And I had a receptionist who is bilingual and then I was barely able to speak medical Spanish and I just kind of became this magnet for Spanish speaking patients for the region. And I realized, "wow, I don't have to leave the country to do medicine in cross-cultural medicine, which was kind of what I really wanted to do. But I really need to get better in Spanish." So my husband and I took our two little kids to Guatemala for a month of immersion, which really, really helped with my Spanish. So, I worked at the Community Health Center for 23 years and really enjoyed the opportunity to be a part of my patients lives. Many of them were very recent immigrants and not farmworkers so much. After I did that for 23 years and my kids were grown, I was like, "I need a new challenge. What about that faculty position that they offered me 23 years ago? I wonder if that's still available." So, I was so fortunate that family medicine was willing to give me a job there. And as part of that job they said we need somebody to be the medical director of the farmworker health program. And I thought, "well, that's a good way for me to continue to practice cross-cultural medicine and to use my Spanish." And I had actually interacted with farmworkers in California to a limited extent and also at the prospect. So, I'm like, "yeah, that sounds great." So, eight years ago, I left the Community Health Center and joined the faculty at UNC and then was subcontracted to the state to be the medical director for the farmworker health program. And I think that's been really, really wonderful because I not only get to continue to care for Latino patients, but I also get to bring learners with me. So, med students and residents and. I developed more of an understanding of the occupational hazards of agricultural medicine so that I can teach people about that. So, it's been a really good transition for me and I've enjoyed it very, very much.
Sophie Therber [00:07:29] That's really incredible. Wow. I'm kind of interested in what you were saying about how what you really wanted to do was just kind of take care of poor people. And your original thought might have been that you were going to do that in Africa. But then over time, I like what you said about having Red Cross culture, having cross cultural experiences right here in North Carolina. That's really interesting. So when you you said that you were not expecting to have a lot of Latino immigrants when you started in about 1989, were you witnessing, like, just changing demographics or were you just kind of surprised about how many Latino immigrants there were? What was that like?
Gayle Thomas [00:08:08] No, it was definitely changing demographics. And there were tensions in our clinic. Well, when you're working at a federally qualified community health center and you're providing care to uninsured and underinsured people, you always have more patients than you can handle. At one point, we had a waiting list of 800 patients wanting to become members at our clinic. Well, it doesn't make sense to keep infecting new patients if you can't take care of them. So, like, if it's six weeks until my next available appointment, then I'm not available. So we were trying to limit our patient panel so that we could actually provide good care. But that meant we weren't able to take everybody who wanted to be our patients. And so the people who are traditionally our patients, the low-income Black and White members of our community, appropriately, were resentful about being kind of pushed out by these new Spanish speaking patients that were coming in greater and greater numbers. So while I was really excited to provide medicine, medical care in Spanish and to improve my Spanish, I also saw with, you know, with some sadness how that pushed other people out and limited their access to care just because there isn't enough there's never enough care in our country for poor and uninsured patients. And the North Carolina legislature's decision to limit Medicaid has only made that worse.
Sophie Therber [00:09:47] So when you said earlier that you were kind of a magnet for Spanish speaking patients, do you think that that was because you were one of the only people who spoke Spanish? Or do you think that there was something else that drew the kind of connected you with that community?
Gayle Thomas [00:09:59] Well, I'd like to think that I was able to express my interest in them and my concern for them and that they appreciated that. But I think also I was the only Spanish speaking provider, and I didn't speak very good Spanish at the beginning. So, they were very patient with me. They taught me a lot. After I got to go to Guatemala for that month of immersion, I did a lot better and my Spanish just continued to improve. But really, it was my patients that taught me a lot about the language, but also about their own cultural beliefs, health care beliefs.
Sophie Therber [00:10:44] And how would you say that your job has changed since you started that kind of work, versus the way that it is today or even the way that it was in recent years before the pandemic?
Gayle Thomas [00:10:56] I'll say...Rephrase that question again, I'm not sure what you're asking.
Sophie Therber [00:10:59] I'm just wondering, I mean, over time, how has just the nature of your work I mean, you were talking about how there have been changing demographics, but what are some other ways that just what you've done with Family Medicine or with the Department of Health and Human Services, just other places? How has that changed over the past since nineteen eighty nine when you started working?
Gayle Thomas [00:11:17] Hmm. There's so many changes that it's hard to hard to say. But when I started at the Community Health Center, I think the copay for somebody who was on the sliding scale fee and went all the way down with ten dollars that copay. Now it's 25 dollars. I certainly had a greater diversity of patients in terms of Black, white, and Latino. I would say now it's almost all Latino, or [it was] when I left, although we also were getting some new immigrants like Karen refugees. So, yeah, a big influx of Karen refugees who we all tried to get kind of up to speed with. Not that we can learn the language that quickly, but understand that population and what some of their unique health beliefs and health care needs were when I changed to the faculty, my life changed dramatically from just being a doctor in a clinic for low income people to being a teacher and needing to learn to give lectures and needing to learn to supervise learners and teach residents and medical students. I had been doing some of that at the center, but doing it much more full time. And then my job at the North Carolina community and the North Carolina Farmworker Health Program is very administrative. And so there's a lot of policies and procedures and official site visits and medical continuous quality improvement things that I need to do that I didn't do at the county health center. So it's been a big learning curve the last eight years, but I've really enjoyed it.
Sophie Therber [00:13:05] I'm interested in what you were saying earlier about how North Carolina health policy, like increasing the copay and decreasing access to Medicare, really impacted the places where you were working. So I'm kind of wondering, how do you see kind of the relationship between the on-the-ground community centers like family health or other places that you worked and these more broad just state legislation? What is that relationship like when these different...these changes come from the state level down to where you are working?
Gayle Thomas [00:13:37] Well, it's actually Medicaid that they limited access to.
Sophie Therber Oh, excuse me.
Gayle Thomas [00:13:42] So when Obama enrolled, or, tried to make Medicaid more available to more people, there were certain states that decided not to take that federal funding to increase access to Medicaid. So, what's really frustrating is that I would have patients who-- they go to the marketplace to try to enroll in subsidized health care from the government. And they're told you don't make enough money to get subsidies from the federal government, which is completely not intuitive. It's like the poorer you are, the more you should get subsidized. But the way this was set up is that people at that income level were supposed to get Medicaid. Well, there is no Medicaid for them, so they just fund this huge chasm between Medicaid and federally subsidized health care. So, it is very painful. It's very painful as a doctor to tell people, yeah, there's nothing for you. You're just going to have to get what care you can at our overly populated community health center, and if you need specialty care, we will try to help you apply to UNC’s Charity Care program. So that's one of the reasons, I think, that I was able to feel good about taking care of my uninsured patients, is that when I needed somebody, a specialist for one of my patients, more often than not, I was able to get it at UNC. So as a primary care provider, I can't do everything for everybody. I can't operate on their brain tumor. I can't do their dialysis. I need my specialty colleagues. And most of the time at UNC, I was able to get them access to the care that they needed, not all with, also, a very imperfect and over-subscribed program. So, when you have patients who can't get the care they need, it's very painful as a provider to watch that.
Sophie Therber [00:15:55] And that's something I could imagine would be kind of compounded by people who might be new to the United States and not necessarily have the proper documentation for insurance or access to these federal programs. Was that something that you experienced, just kind of that whole chasm, as you were saying, being made even more complicated by that?
Gayle Thomas [00:16:15] Definitely. Definitely. We...We took care of a lot of patients who were undocumented and did not have access, would not have had access to Medicaid even if the state legislature had decided to expand access and, fortunately, UNC Charity Care did not make themselves unavailable. They kind of took the reverse. So right now, to apply for Charity Care at UNC, you can't have a legal visa. So, if you have a visa to come to the United States, as about 20,000 of our farmworkers do, they're here on an agricultural guest worker visa. They tend to come in March and April and go back in November every year. Well, if they need dialysis or if they need surgery, they do not qualify for Charity Care because their visa implies that they will be here and take care of themselves and not burden our country. So now I kind of have the reverse problem of it's better to be undocumented if you need specialty care at UNC.
Sophie Therber [00:17:30] That's really interesting that it's just these different levels with having less access to some things, given having some levels of documentation. I'd like to switch gears for a second and just ask you about, have you experienced any natural disasters when you've had any of these positions, particularly with working with farmworkers or any kind of immigrants to North Carolina?
Gayle Thomas [00:17:54] Yeah, in the eight years that I've been the medical director, we've had a number of hurricanes that have impacted farmworkers. And we had farmworkers at one point call 911 because their camp, they live in work camps in large groups, and their work camp was being flooded and 911 was preparing a white-water rescue for them. But then, the owner of the farm called 911 and said, "they're fine, you don't need to go." And the 911 operators listen to the owner instead of listening to the farmworkers who probably, because of language, weren't able to advocate for themselves as well as they would have liked. So, they start calling our Spanish-speaking outreach workers. And finally, the outreach workers were able to get someone to go rescue them. But, yeah, there's all kinds of difficulties when farmworkers, first of all, if they're out of work, even if their camp is not being flooded, that they just can't work, they don't work, they don't get paid; they don't get paid, they can't eat, they don't have their own transportation. They're reliant on their employer for transportation. They have access to some public service announcements through Spanish radio and Spanish media. But if they lose power, then their cell phones are going to die and they're not going to have access to those announcements and that very important public service information that helps us all kind of navigate when we're in the middle of a disaster.
Sophie Therber [00:19:36] Yeah, that's really heartbreaking that they weren't able to get the help that they needed. I mean, I'm glad that they were able to call your Spanish speaking hotline for that kind of thing. But that's just really heartbreaking that it happened that way. So how do you your role changed when there are these natural disasters, when you're working with people who are affected by those natural disasters? How does your role and your day-to-day work change? How is it impacted by that?
Gayle Thomas [00:20:02] Well, I mean, COVID impacted all of us in health care in huge, huge ways. I've never experienced anything like I've experienced this last year and a half with COVID; my life just got turned upside down. Our program, which previously was really just caring for about ten thousand farmworkers across the state, was tapped by the state DHHS, understandably, to step up and try to care for all the farmworkers in the state, all 100,000 of them. And without prior experience, I mean, none of us had ever been in a pandemic before. Farmworkers did not do well in this pandemic because they live in large work camps. So, when one person got COVID, they all got COVID. We had camps where 90 percent of people tested positive for COVID. Fortunately, not all of them got seriously ill, but some of them did and some of them died. They go to and from work in a school bus. And so, they're all being transported together. So, the whole idea of staying home and limiting your contact with other people is just not possible for farmworkers. So that was incredibly frustrating to try to respond to COVID when there just aren't other alternatives for living and transportation. So, masks, hand sanitizer, all that's good, but it's not adequate. And then the hardest thing was...when a group of people are exposed to COVID, the ideal thing is everybody goes into quarantine separately. But you can't do that when you've got a bunch of people living together. And so, yeah, you separate the people who are sick, who have come in from the people who aren't who are just exposed. But then the next person comes down with COVID in the exposed group, and then the next person, and then the next person. And you just keep re-exposing people. And the infection just rolls through the camp and it's so frustrating to feel so helpless in trying to respond to COVID in these situations. This year is different. We have vaccines and we are seeing smaller outbreaks. We have had a farmworker already died this year and we have several in the hospital. But it's not on the scale of last year, so we're vaccinating just as fast as we can, [00:22:48] as soon as we can, when people get here from other states or from Mexico. Some farmworkers will move to North Carolina, from Florida, where they've worked in the winter, and now they're going to work here and other...and some of them may have gotten vaccinated in Florida, others not. But then a lot of them are still coming up from Mexico on these guest worker visas. So, trying to find them and vaccinate them as soon as we can is our approach this year. So, it feels better, feels like we actually have a tool that works. But a 40-hour bus ride from Mexico, when you're sitting next to somebody who's asymptomatically or early asymptomatically infected with COVID, you're going to get it. And the vaccine we get you when you arrive is not going to be soon enough. So, we're still seeing people with COVID, but it's not spreading this fast in the camps because more people are vaccinated.
Sophie Therber [00:23:48] Yeah, I think so much has changed, I mean, just thinking back to the early days of the pandemic, so in February, March 2020 versus now when we do have access to the vaccines, how kind of if you had to identify a few of the biggest problems, I mean, there's a lot, right? You were talking about crowded transportation, not being able to isolate separately, and things like that. So how have the challenges changed from the early days of the pandemic, before we kind of had an understanding of what was going, on versus the kind of middle of things, not necessarily the middle, but later on when things were kind of getting worse, and now when we do have access to vaccines? How have the different challenges evolved in that time?
Gayle Thomas [00:24:34] I think the earliest challenge was, of course, knowledge we didn't know. Could you get this from surfaces? How close did you have to be to somebody to get it for how long? You know, who was going to get really sick and who is going to be asymptomatically infected? And how many people were asymptomatically infected? You mean, we just didn't know that. And so that made it a whole lot scarier. And the lack of PPE…My program relies heavily on outreach workers. As a physician, I am not as important as the outreach workers. So the outreach workers are people who often are bilingual, bicultural, come from the community and are the bridge between the patient and me, the medical provider. If I just sit in my clinic, I'll never see farmworkers because they can't get to me without an outreach worker. So, our outreach workers are our unsung heroes who go out to the camps to get to know the workers who earn their trust and provide them in non-COVID times with transportation, financial assistance, food assistance and go rescue them when they get stuck in a flooded work camp and 911 won't come. So, they are like, amazing. But at the beginning we didn't have PPE for them. You know, the PPE was, appropriately, going first to the people who are working in the COVID hot zones: the people in the ICUs, people in the ERS who were exposed to known COVID patients. And so, our outreach workers were stuck at home trying to take care of farmworkers over the phone and obviously not feeling comfortable transporting them. And so that was really, really hard this year. Now that outreach workers have the opportunity to be vaccinated, there's plenty of masks to go around, we have a better understanding that surfaces are not as important in transmitting the infection. Now, the outreach workers can actually go out to the camps and see the guys and bring them food. And last year, all they could do basically were porch drops, which they did. But now they can actually interact with the guys. And when everybody's masked, they can put them in a vehicle and take them to appointments and things like that. So, I think the stress now is, first of all, everybody's tired, we're all exhausted. Everybody has been working at, I don't know, one hundred and fifty percent capacity for the last year and a half. And we've been vaccinating as fast as we can. And there's still guys that want vaccines that haven't had access to them. So, I think that stress now, it's just that everybody's tired. And farmworkers, one of the reasons there are marginalized population is they don't get paid time off from work. So, if you want to take care of farmworkers, you have to do it after work hours. Well, they work from sunup to sundown, so that means you're working late at night. So our outreach workers will often go out to the camps starting around seven, 8:00 in the evening. They're there till 10:00, 11:00 when the farmworkers have to go to bed because they have to get up again at four thirty five in the morning. And as a provider, that's when they take me out is late in the evenings. And one other time that farmworkers are available for vaccinations are maybe Saturday afternoon, evening and Sundays. So that's the stress now is how do you find vaccine providers who are willing to go late evenings and weekends? That's not when medical providers tend to want to work. We want our weekends off, too, but that's the only time farmworkers are available, so getting the vaccine to them at times when they're available is the challenge right now. I think the other challenge that we've been having all along is getting testing to them became very clear early on that a test that takes eight days to come back, that means nothing when you're living with 50 guys. I mean, after eight days, everybody is already infected. Now, we have tests that turn around a little bit faster. So, PCR tests that can turn around in 24 to 48 hours, that's better. It's still not good enough. And now we have rapid antigen tests that can come back in 15 minutes. But they're not 100% sensitive or 100% specific, meaning that you can have false positives and false negatives. So, getting testing out to people in rural areas, in labor camps at the end of gravel roads is hard. One of the things that we're trying to do right now is to buy these at-home test kits and to give them to the farmworkers so that they can test if and when they feel like they need it, because their access to testing is so, so poor. And given that we are seeing some breakthrough infections, people who are fully vaccinated that are getting infected, I don't think testing is over. We need vaccines, but we also need testing. That's one of our challenges right now, is getting these at home test kits to farmworkers so they can test if they get symptoms.
Sophie Therber [00:30:13] And can you walk me through...How are you distributing those at home test kits to the farmers? I mean, you were saying it's difficult -- rural North Carolina gravel roads -- but for you or the outreach workers or whoever is doing that, how does that work? How do you end up being able to do that?
Gayle Thomas [00:30:30] Well, it's the outreach workers. So, you know, my program has gotten some funds from the federal government for testing and COVID response. And so we're using those funds to buy these at home test kits and we're giving them to the outreach workers. And we're saying, here, take this with you. When you go to the camp to visit the workers, talk to them about how important it is. Obviously, we have lots of masks, too, now. So, we send out masks and hand sanitizers and, now, these test kits. And let me help you get your vaccine, but even after you get your vaccine, let me help you with this test kit if you want it. So, the outreach workers are taking them. We also are encountering workers in Wal-Mart parking lots. For the last, I guess, four or five months, we've been going to the Wal-Mart parking lot at Rocky Mount and having a health fair there where farmworkers go on Sundays to buy their groceries. We're trying to put ourselves where they are. And also we've gone to some Mexican tiendas or little shops where they tend to go on the weekends as well and handing out those test kits and that PPE and health information and stuff like that there.
Sophie Therber [00:31:46] It's so interesting because there's so much nuance in the way that the COVID response has gone. I mean, especially just because of this time frame of just not really knowing what was going on, and then being overwhelmed, and now having different challenges with distribution of vaccines and testing, like you were saying. And I'm wondering, how does the way that you and your coworkers responded to the -- ah, excuse me -- are continuing to respond to the COVID pandemic, compare to ways that you've responded to extreme weather or flooding or other natural disaster events in the past?
Gayle Thomas [00:32:21] I think that because this has gone on for so long and it's been so universal, it's not just those five counties that are flooded over there, it's all of North Carolina, it's all of the United States, it's all of the world. One thing that's happened, fortunately, this time is that we have been able to make alliances and collaborations with people that we didn't before. And those have been really, really important. So we've been able to collaborate with more of our colleagues within DHHS. We've been able to collaborate with colleagues in the agricultural extension program, in Department of Commerce, in Migrant Head Start and migrant education. So some of these programs that we always knew about each other. Right. But we didn't know each other individually and we didn't try to work together. That has made a huge difference. So, for example, early in the pandemic, we wanted to send masks to farmworkers and we were able to do that with state purchase masks and we were able to deliver thousands of them to the ag extension workers. So every one of the hundred counties in North Carolina have ag extension workers who are focused mostly, mainly on the growers, not on the farmworkers. And so, they have been kind of in a parallel universe to us. And all of a sudden we were able to ask them to help deliver these masks to the farms, which [00:34:08] was huge, was huge. We just don't have as many outreach workers as we need. We don't have outreach workers in all counties, but we did have ag extension agents in all counties. And then in terms of trying to organize the vaccine distribution, we're able to use the AG extension agents again and form some committees of the outreach workers, the ag extension agent and then the vaccine providers. So, the clinics, the health departments, people who are providing the vaccine and trying to help them work together in a collaborative way to meet the needs in their county, because they're the ones that know where the groups of farmworkers are. And then the ag extension agent is able to call the grower because they know the grower and then they're able to help that grower link to a vaccine provider. So that been different and that's been really, really rewarding and very successful.
Sophie Therber [00:35:06] So, do a lot of these partnerships kind of happen on a county-to county-basis? You're working with people who now have more specific contacts about different counties in North Carolina?
Gayle Thomas [00:35:24] Well, they didn't know each other until we introduced them. OK, so this was a sort of a strategy that the team that I work with came up with. Specifically, the state epidemiologist that was assigned to work with us, came up with this idea of forming these local committees. And so, we got these name and numbers and email addresses and we called these people and got them together and held meetings still are holding meetings to try to help them collaborate. So, these were partnerships that were conceived of on the state level and are being enacted on the local county level.
Sophie Therber [00:36:08] Okay, so what is the relationship between the state level planning and the county level plan planning for these kinds of partnerships?
Gayle Thomas [00:36:17] Well, the state level planning came up with the idea of forming these local vaccine teams by county and then pulled the teams together. And now the teams are taking it themselves and many of them are meeting weekly or every other week to talk about, okay, this grower is getting these workers this week who can provide vaccines. Have you called them? Have you talked to them? Has the outreach worker been out there to talk to the workers to make sure their questions have been answered? Has the ag extension agent called the grower to make sure they understand what's going on? So that's kind of how it works.
Sophie Therber [00:37:00] There are a lot of just a lot of different levels of things to consider, because there are so many issues that have come about because of the pandemic and so many specific steps to solve those issues. Like you were saying, like people cold calling people and talking about just what needs to be done. So, can you tell me a little bit more about how you how can you prioritize when there are so many different what needs to be things that need to be done because of the pandemic? How do you decide what to reach out to other people about?
Gayle Thomas [00:37:31] That's a hard call. I mean. You know, it's very overwhelming and there were certainly many times in the past year and a half when my colleagues and I because I'm not alone, I work with a wonderful team of colleagues in Raleigh in the North Carolina Farmworker Health Program. And when we would just feel overwhelmed and I would just have we just have to say, let's just do the next thing. Let's just do the next right thing. We can't do everything, but we're just going to do the next right thing. So, I mean, we tried to prioritize based on what we knew about the disease and what would be most effective and also what we hear from our outreach workers. So, unlike some state organizations, that might be a little detached from what's going on in the ground. We met with our outreach workers every week during the worst part of the pandemic to hear from them. What's going on in your site? What do you need? What you hear? What are the farmworkers saying to you? So, I think listening to the people that we were trying to serve also is very, very important in terms of how you prioritize what you're going to do next.
Sophie Therber [00:38:47] And do you think that in the future, after I mean, the hope is that the pandemic will eventually subside, and we can kind of be moving back to what we used to consider normal and everything. Do you think that any of the practices that you've adopted now because of the pandemic you and your coworkers have adopted now, do you think you'll keep any of those or do you think that that's just kind of a shorter term solution to just a specific issue with the pandemic?
Gayle Thomas [00:39:14] No, we really would like to see these local teams maybe coalesce into regional teams and to continue to bridge this gap between the grower and the farmworker by using these regional teams to do disaster preparedness. So we recognize that these teams have formed in response to the disaster, but we would like to see them continue and be earthquake preparedness teams so that when the next --or, hurricane more likely, preparedness teams -- I'm sorry, back to California where we had earthquakes all the time. Here, we don't have them very often! But, you know, so when the next big hurricane happens and then is expected and flooding is expected, then these teams will already know each other and be able to work more effectively together to get farmworkers to safety, to get farmworkers the food and water they need when they can't drink the water or they don't have electricity or they don't have works, they don't have food, all those kinds of things.
Sophie Therber [00:40:26] So I think it's really interesting.... the importance of collaboration and I mean, you were saying that that's something that you just kind of started because of the pandemic. There was a need to coordinate responses. And that need is definitely going to continue because of the future disasters that will be faced. So can you tell me anything else about how your day-to-day or things that you're doing have changed because of the presence of these other actors, these people who are collaborating? Like, for instance, are you finding yourself kind of taking on more work to coordinate between people? Or do you feel like you've noticed new issues because the new things might be coming to your attention because there are new actors in your job now? What do you think?
Gayle Thomas [00:41:12] Oh, I definitely think there's more work. Yeah, there's always more work. I am not doing all the work myself. Obviously I have this wonderful team that I work with and our collaborators. But, yeah, it takes time to to bring these teams together and to keep them going and to check in with them and to make sure that things aren't just sort of petering out because this was all added stuff. This is all stuff on top of what people are already doing. Right. And they're exhausted and tired, too. And then our vaccinators, you know, they're running around the middle of the night vaccinating people in fields. You know, that gets tiring, too, because then they have to back in their clinic the next day seeing patients and doing their normal stuff. So, this is all on top of what people are already doing. So, it's always more work, I think. You know, I spend my life on Zoom a lot of times right now because we're doing all these local team meetings on Zoom, my wonderful teammates in Raleigh. We're not working in the Office of Rural Health together anymore. We're all meeting on Zoom. So, "Zoom fatigue," or "Teams fatigue" since we have to use Teams, is very real and we're all very, very tired. But the other thing that's opened up is how, how much you can do [dog barks] in a telemedicine call -- Hold on, let me get my dog.
Sophie Therber No worries.
[Brief pause as Gayle lets out her dog]
Gayle Thomas [00:42:55] We developed, for the first time, telemedicine; so, we had we have mobile clinics that we take out to the labor camps and we do primary care. And early in the pandemic, we suspended those because of the lack of PPE and stuff. But now we're back doing those. But we are continuing to do telemedicine. A lot of our workers do have smart phones. They often don't have the Internet. That's one thing we've been trying to get them in the pandemic is to get more Internet to the labor camp. And then then we can talk on the phone and and we can refill their blood pressure medicine and refill their diabetes medicine and do a certain amount of health care on the phone, which is really, really useful for people who are in rural areas. So I hope that's another thing that we're able to continue once the pandemic is over, because I think that's meeting a need that is going to continue.
Sophie Therber [00:44:01] What support do you think that would be most helpful for you to be addressing farmworker health throughout the pandemic and with natural disasters? I know in an ideal world we wouldn't even have those in the first place. But just ideally, if if there were more resources available to you and your coworkers and the farmworker health program, what supports would be helpful?
Gayle Thomas [00:44:24] I think the most important thing we need is more outreach workers. So, as I said before, not every county in every county in North Carolina has farmworkers. Some have many more than some have many less. But not every county has outreach workers. And as I said before, you know, a health care provider like myself without an average worker, we're just not going to be effective in terms of reaching farmworkers. So, I right now, most outreach workers are paid for by federal funds that come through a person. And so that's on a federal level. So I think expanding the number of outreach workers would be the most important thing.
Sophie Therber [00:45:10] And what with expanding our outreach workers, are those....How do you recruit outreach workers or people? Do they come from the state or are they just people who live locally? I mean, where do these people come from?
Gayle Thomas [00:45:24] That's a really good question. No, they come locally. That's their connection to the community. That gives them their super magic powers, because people they look like them. They talk like them. They maybe already are known by them. And so they have entrance into a community where I, a white lady with the Spanish that's spoken with an American accent, I might not. So... But if I go with them to a community, then all of a sudden I have credibility that I wouldn't have had otherwise because the outreach worker has done that. [00:46:08]So they come -- North Carolina is part of their response to the pandemic as a whole, really stood up a big community health care community health worker program, which and that's basically outreach workers for people other than farm. So, in my program, we call them outreach workers. These are people who are not they're not licensed as a nurse or a doctor, but they have this knowledge of the community, and they are this bridge of care. North Carolina started up a big community health worker program to reach other marginalized communities besides farmworkers. And a lot of them did the contact tracing and testing that we saw earlier in the pandemic. That has become less important now because more people are vaccinated, but as cases take back up, might become more important again. And so, we have been finding those community health workers that are bilingual, English, Spanish, and trying to sort of enfold them and recruit them to the farmworker health program. So, yeah, we find them in the community.
Sophie Therber [00:47:30] Throughout, the numbers of these outreach workers, how did that change during the pandemic? I mean, I know that we heard so much just about shortages of health care workers and things like that. Do you feel that you had kind of a sustainable amount of outreach workers, or do you feel like there was room for improvement there?
Gayle Thomas [00:47:51] Well, we've never had enough, so that didn't change. But I was really pleased that we were able to support our outreach workers and keep them in their position. It's a burnout position. They are on the front lines there. They are talking to people who don't have enough food, who don't have access to health care, who are working in dangerous occupations, who are dying of COVID. It's a burnout position. And so, they need a lot of support, both technical support, medical support, but also emotional support. And I feel like we were able to hire a COVID response team and that team was able to then, as I said before, meet weekly with outreach workers just to kind of keep a finger on the pulse of what's going on the ground, how are things changing, but also how are you doing and what can we do to help and support you? So we were able to maintain our workforce and in and increase it with some of the federal emergency funds that we got. We were able to hire some more outreach workers. So never enough. Never enough, but increased that net staff some.
Sophie Therber [00:49:14] Great. Well, thank you so much. I'd just like to add, is there anything else you would like to add or anything else that you'd like just to talk about before I stop the recording?
Gayle Thomas [00:49:23] Well, I just would love people to know that farmworkers are currently exempt from many workplace protections that most of the rest of us have. And that was written into law back in the 1920s when a lot of workplace reforms were made and it was written into law that they were exempt from overtime pay, that they were exempt from disability and lots of different things, because at that time the southern states did not want those workplace rights to be extended to their sharecroppers who were formerly enslaved African-Americans. And so they made sure that those things were exempted. So, it's called agricultural exceptionalism. And it basically sets up a very oppressive and dangerous workplace for farmworkers. And most of us have no idea that that's going on. No idea that child labor is fine on the farm. You can't work at McDonald's, but you can go work in a very dangerous place on the farm and die of heat exhaustion or heat stroke. And that workplace exceptionalism has to stop that. That exploitation has to stop.
Sophie Therber [00:50:49] Wow, did you say the 1920s? Yeah, wow, that's amazing. I mean, that's just that's been around for so long and I mean, wow, I didn't realize that it had been not updated in that much time. That's really...I'm really...thank you so much for sharing that because that's definitely important to know about and that's something that...wow.
Gayle Thomas [00:51:10] And that's one of the reasons they're so vulnerable to COVID, is that they don't have any of these protections that the rest of us take for granted. And I was going to say we're able to get away with it right now because our workforce is primarily undocumented or documented immigrants and they don't feel most of them, they don't feel empowered to speak up and protest.
Sophie Therber [00:51:40] And when you are working with your addressing COVID or you're addressing other disasters in these workplaces that are just, like you said, very dangerous and based off of exploitation, what kind of challenges do you run into that are kind of unique to that kind of workplace and that kind of situation?
Gayle Thomas [00:51:59] Well, for one, we get chased off by growers where they're providing free health care to their workers late at night and they object and they feel like they should be able to control access to their workers and that only people that they allow to come see their workers should be able to come see their workers. So that's one thing that we experience. We experience growers who are like, "no, I don't I don't want my workers to be vaccinated. I don't believe that the vaccine is needed. They're fine." Or, "I don't think my workers need to be rescued from floodwaters." So we just the...And not all growers are like that. Some are very, very concerned about their workers. But the ones that are like that, it's very discouraging. And they often, because of the way the laws are written, they are able to get away with that.
Sophie Therber [00:53:00] That's really interesting and upsetting that the growers have so much kind of control over the well-being of the people that are working there, and that's I mean, really unfortunate that that's an issue that you are running into and your work and other people who are doing similar work. All right, well, thank you so much for your time. I just, I would like to ask again if there's anything you'd like to add.
Gayle Thomas [00:53:23] No, no, that's okay.
Sophie Therber [00:53:26] Thank you. I'm going to go ahead and stop the recording but thank you so much.
End of interview. [00:53:32]
Es: Transcripción
Sophie Therber [00:00:01] My name is Sophie Therber, and I'm interviewing Gayle Thomas, today is July 19, 2021, and it is currently 4:09 PM. Thank you so much for agreeing to be interviewed, Gayle, I've been really looking forward to this. So, thank you so much.
Gayle Thomas [00:00:17] You're welcome.
Sophie Therber [00:00:19] Just to start, where are you from and can you tell me a little bit about that area?
Gayle Thomas [00:00:25] Yeah, I was born actually in Congo, which is a country in Africa, but I didn't live there very long. I left when I was about two. My parents were working there as missionary teachers, training Congolese teachers. I grew up in California where I got all my medical training. And then I came to North Carolina right after finishing residency, primarily because my husband got a position on faculty at UNC in the School of Public Health.
Sophie Therber [00:00:59] How long have you been in North Carolina?
Gayle Thomas [00:01:02] Since 1989, so a long time.
Sophie Therber [00:01:06] What was that like to be moving around from Congo to California to North Carolina?
Gayle Thomas [00:01:11] Well, I don't remember the move from Congo because I was only two, but growing up in California was great. Moving to North Carolina was a little bit scary. There's certain, you know, I would say, prejudices about southern states in California, but I was very pleasantly surprised when I moved to Chapel Hill. It had a lot of things that I enjoyed and profited from. I really found that I love the...The seasons are more marked here in North Carolina than they are in California. And I really enjoyed that change in weather and the weather drama. Now that California is in the middle of a big drought and on fire every year, I'm grateful not to be breathing that smoke. So, I love California. I love visiting it. But North Carolina has a lot of the same features: mountains, beaches, beautiful woods. And I feel very fortunate to live in North Carolina.
Sophie Therber [00:02:28] Does your family still live in California?
Gayle Thomas [00:02:31] No. I have some cousins there still, but my parents moved to be with us in Chapel Hill. My mother-in-law moved. My brothers have moved to other states. So, no, I don't have any close family in California anymore.
Sophie Therber [00:02:50] And so you moved to North Carolina, and you were in Chapel Hill. And then what influenced your decision to start working with the Farm Workers Project and the North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services?
Gayle Thomas [00:03:02] Well, I went to medical school because I wanted to take care of poor people. And originally, I was going to be taking care of poor people in Africa. I wanted to go back to Africa, and I married the person I thought wanted to go back to Africa, too. He had worked in Congo for two years as a nutritionist prior to us really beginning our relationship. And that was one reason why we got acquainted, because we had that in common. But then following residency, we decided we needed a few years in the States and he got this job in North Carolina. We weren't planning to stay, but once we came and then we started a family and then it became clear that our family needed to be sort of rooted in one place and not being bounced around the world. So, we decided to stay in North Carolina. I was entertaining the idea of being an academic physician but decided after one year in the Department of Family Medicine that although I really loved that what I loved more was taking care of poor people. So I took a job at the...It was called OCCHS, but it's a federally qualified community health center now called Piedmont Health Services. So I took a job and both Carrboro and Prospect Hill County Health Center and I began to get Spanish-speaking patients. So, I had studied Spanish in California, realizing that I would need that in medicine in California, and I did need that in med school and residency. And then when I came to North Carolina, I thought, "well, I'm not going to speak Spanish to North Carolina in 1989." But that was just as the influx of Spanish speakers began. And I had a receptionist who is bilingual and then I was barely able to speak medical Spanish and I just kind of became this magnet for Spanish speaking patients for the region. And I realized, "wow, I don't have to leave the country to do medicine in cross-cultural medicine, which was kind of what I really wanted to do. But I really need to get better in Spanish." So my husband and I took our two little kids to Guatemala for a month of immersion, which really, really helped with my Spanish. So, I worked at the Community Health Center for 23 years and really enjoyed the opportunity to be a part of my patients lives. Many of them were very recent immigrants and not farmworkers so much. After I did that for 23 years and my kids were grown, I was like, "I need a new challenge. What about that faculty position that they offered me 23 years ago? I wonder if that's still available." So, I was so fortunate that family medicine was willing to give me a job there. And as part of that job they said we need somebody to be the medical director of the farmworker health program. And I thought, "well, that's a good way for me to continue to practice cross-cultural medicine and to use my Spanish." And I had actually interacted with farmworkers in California to a limited extent and also at the prospect. So, I'm like, "yeah, that sounds great." So, eight years ago, I left the Community Health Center and joined the faculty at UNC and then was subcontracted to the state to be the medical director for the farmworker health program. And I think that's been really, really wonderful because I not only get to continue to care for Latino patients, but I also get to bring learners with me. So, med students and residents and. I developed more of an understanding of the occupational hazards of agricultural medicine so that I can teach people about that. So, it's been a really good transition for me and I've enjoyed it very, very much.
Sophie Therber [00:07:29] That's really incredible. Wow. I'm kind of interested in what you were saying about how what you really wanted to do was just kind of take care of poor people. And your original thought might have been that you were going to do that in Africa. But then over time, I like what you said about having Red Cross culture, having cross cultural experiences right here in North Carolina. That's really interesting. So when you you said that you were not expecting to have a lot of Latino immigrants when you started in about 1989, were you witnessing, like, just changing demographics or were you just kind of surprised about how many Latino immigrants there were? What was that like?
Gayle Thomas [00:08:08] No, it was definitely changing demographics. And there were tensions in our clinic. Well, when you're working at a federally qualified community health center and you're providing care to uninsured and underinsured people, you always have more patients than you can handle. At one point, we had a waiting list of 800 patients wanting to become members at our clinic. Well, it doesn't make sense to keep infecting new patients if you can't take care of them. So, like, if it's six weeks until my next available appointment, then I'm not available. So we were trying to limit our patient panel so that we could actually provide good care. But that meant we weren't able to take everybody who wanted to be our patients. And so the people who are traditionally our patients, the low-income Black and White members of our community, appropriately, were resentful about being kind of pushed out by these new Spanish speaking patients that were coming in greater and greater numbers. So while I was really excited to provide medicine, medical care in Spanish and to improve my Spanish, I also saw with, you know, with some sadness how that pushed other people out and limited their access to care just because there isn't enough there's never enough care in our country for poor and uninsured patients. And the North Carolina legislature's decision to limit Medicaid has only made that worse.
Sophie Therber [00:09:47] So when you said earlier that you were kind of a magnet for Spanish speaking patients, do you think that that was because you were one of the only people who spoke Spanish? Or do you think that there was something else that drew the kind of connected you with that community?
Gayle Thomas [00:09:59] Well, I'd like to think that I was able to express my interest in them and my concern for them and that they appreciated that. But I think also I was the only Spanish speaking provider, and I didn't speak very good Spanish at the beginning. So, they were very patient with me. They taught me a lot. After I got to go to Guatemala for that month of immersion, I did a lot better and my Spanish just continued to improve. But really, it was my patients that taught me a lot about the language, but also about their own cultural beliefs, health care beliefs.
Sophie Therber [00:10:44] And how would you say that your job has changed since you started that kind of work, versus the way that it is today or even the way that it was in recent years before the pandemic?
Gayle Thomas [00:10:56] I'll say...Rephrase that question again, I'm not sure what you're asking.
Sophie Therber [00:10:59] I'm just wondering, I mean, over time, how has just the nature of your work I mean, you were talking about how there have been changing demographics, but what are some other ways that just what you've done with Family Medicine or with the Department of Health and Human Services, just other places? How has that changed over the past since nineteen eighty nine when you started working?
Gayle Thomas [00:11:17] Hmm. There's so many changes that it's hard to hard to say. But when I started at the Community Health Center, I think the copay for somebody who was on the sliding scale fee and went all the way down with ten dollars that copay. Now it's 25 dollars. I certainly had a greater diversity of patients in terms of Black, white, and Latino. I would say now it's almost all Latino, or [it was] when I left, although we also were getting some new immigrants like Karen refugees. So, yeah, a big influx of Karen refugees who we all tried to get kind of up to speed with. Not that we can learn the language that quickly, but understand that population and what some of their unique health beliefs and health care needs were when I changed to the faculty, my life changed dramatically from just being a doctor in a clinic for low income people to being a teacher and needing to learn to give lectures and needing to learn to supervise learners and teach residents and medical students. I had been doing some of that at the center, but doing it much more full time. And then my job at the North Carolina community and the North Carolina Farmworker Health Program is very administrative. And so there's a lot of policies and procedures and official site visits and medical continuous quality improvement things that I need to do that I didn't do at the county health center. So it's been a big learning curve the last eight years, but I've really enjoyed it.
Sophie Therber [00:13:05] I'm interested in what you were saying earlier about how North Carolina health policy, like increasing the copay and decreasing access to Medicare, really impacted the places where you were working. So I'm kind of wondering, how do you see kind of the relationship between the on-the-ground community centers like family health or other places that you worked and these more broad just state legislation? What is that relationship like when these different...these changes come from the state level down to where you are working?
Gayle Thomas [00:13:37] Well, it's actually Medicaid that they limited access to.
Sophie Therber Oh, excuse me.
Gayle Thomas [00:13:42] So when Obama enrolled, or, tried to make Medicaid more available to more people, there were certain states that decided not to take that federal funding to increase access to Medicaid. So, what's really frustrating is that I would have patients who-- they go to the marketplace to try to enroll in subsidized health care from the government. And they're told you don't make enough money to get subsidies from the federal government, which is completely not intuitive. It's like the poorer you are, the more you should get subsidized. But the way this was set up is that people at that income level were supposed to get Medicaid. Well, there is no Medicaid for them, so they just fund this huge chasm between Medicaid and federally subsidized health care. So, it is very painful. It's very painful as a doctor to tell people, yeah, there's nothing for you. You're just going to have to get what care you can at our overly populated community health center, and if you need specialty care, we will try to help you apply to UNC’s Charity Care program. So that's one of the reasons, I think, that I was able to feel good about taking care of my uninsured patients, is that when I needed somebody, a specialist for one of my patients, more often than not, I was able to get it at UNC. So as a primary care provider, I can't do everything for everybody. I can't operate on their brain tumor. I can't do their dialysis. I need my specialty colleagues. And most of the time at UNC, I was able to get them access to the care that they needed, not all with, also, a very imperfect and over-subscribed program. So, when you have patients who can't get the care they need, it's very painful as a provider to watch that.
Sophie Therber [00:15:55] And that's something I could imagine would be kind of compounded by people who might be new to the United States and not necessarily have the proper documentation for insurance or access to these federal programs. Was that something that you experienced, just kind of that whole chasm, as you were saying, being made even more complicated by that?
Gayle Thomas [00:16:15] Definitely. Definitely. We...We took care of a lot of patients who were undocumented and did not have access, would not have had access to Medicaid even if the state legislature had decided to expand access and, fortunately, UNC Charity Care did not make themselves unavailable. They kind of took the reverse. So right now, to apply for Charity Care at UNC, you can't have a legal visa. So, if you have a visa to come to the United States, as about 20,000 of our farmworkers do, they're here on an agricultural guest worker visa. They tend to come in March and April and go back in November every year. Well, if they need dialysis or if they need surgery, they do not qualify for Charity Care because their visa implies that they will be here and take care of themselves and not burden our country. So now I kind of have the reverse problem of it's better to be undocumented if you need specialty care at UNC.
Sophie Therber [00:17:30] That's really interesting that it's just these different levels with having less access to some things, given having some levels of documentation. I'd like to switch gears for a second and just ask you about, have you experienced any natural disasters when you've had any of these positions, particularly with working with farmworkers or any kind of immigrants to North Carolina?
Gayle Thomas [00:17:54] Yeah, in the eight years that I've been the medical director, we've had a number of hurricanes that have impacted farmworkers. And we had farmworkers at one point call 911 because their camp, they live in work camps in large groups, and their work camp was being flooded and 911 was preparing a white-water rescue for them. But then, the owner of the farm called 911 and said, "they're fine, you don't need to go." And the 911 operators listen to the owner instead of listening to the farmworkers who probably, because of language, weren't able to advocate for themselves as well as they would have liked. So, they start calling our Spanish-speaking outreach workers. And finally, the outreach workers were able to get someone to go rescue them. But, yeah, there's all kinds of difficulties when farmworkers, first of all, if they're out of work, even if their camp is not being flooded, that they just can't work, they don't work, they don't get paid; they don't get paid, they can't eat, they don't have their own transportation. They're reliant on their employer for transportation. They have access to some public service announcements through Spanish radio and Spanish media. But if they lose power, then their cell phones are going to die and they're not going to have access to those announcements and that very important public service information that helps us all kind of navigate when we're in the middle of a disaster.
Sophie Therber [00:19:36] Yeah, that's really heartbreaking that they weren't able to get the help that they needed. I mean, I'm glad that they were able to call your Spanish speaking hotline for that kind of thing. But that's just really heartbreaking that it happened that way. So how do you your role changed when there are these natural disasters, when you're working with people who are affected by those natural disasters? How does your role and your day-to-day work change? How is it impacted by that?
Gayle Thomas [00:20:02] Well, I mean, COVID impacted all of us in health care in huge, huge ways. I've never experienced anything like I've experienced this last year and a half with COVID; my life just got turned upside down. Our program, which previously was really just caring for about ten thousand farmworkers across the state, was tapped by the state DHHS, understandably, to step up and try to care for all the farmworkers in the state, all 100,000 of them. And without prior experience, I mean, none of us had ever been in a pandemic before. Farmworkers did not do well in this pandemic because they live in large work camps. So, when one person got COVID, they all got COVID. We had camps where 90 percent of people tested positive for COVID. Fortunately, not all of them got seriously ill, but some of them did and some of them died. They go to and from work in a school bus. And so, they're all being transported together. So, the whole idea of staying home and limiting your contact with other people is just not possible for farmworkers. So that was incredibly frustrating to try to respond to COVID when there just aren't other alternatives for living and transportation. So, masks, hand sanitizer, all that's good, but it's not adequate. And then the hardest thing was...when a group of people are exposed to COVID, the ideal thing is everybody goes into quarantine separately. But you can't do that when you've got a bunch of people living together. And so, yeah, you separate the people who are sick, who have come in from the people who aren't who are just exposed. But then the next person comes down with COVID in the exposed group, and then the next person, and then the next person. And you just keep re-exposing people. And the infection just rolls through the camp and it's so frustrating to feel so helpless in trying to respond to COVID in these situations. This year is different. We have vaccines and we are seeing smaller outbreaks. We have had a farmworker already died this year and we have several in the hospital. But it's not on the scale of last year, so we're vaccinating just as fast as we can, [00:22:48] as soon as we can, when people get here from other states or from Mexico. Some farmworkers will move to North Carolina, from Florida, where they've worked in the winter, and now they're going to work here and other...and some of them may have gotten vaccinated in Florida, others not. But then a lot of them are still coming up from Mexico on these guest worker visas. So, trying to find them and vaccinate them as soon as we can is our approach this year. So, it feels better, feels like we actually have a tool that works. But a 40-hour bus ride from Mexico, when you're sitting next to somebody who's asymptomatically or early asymptomatically infected with COVID, you're going to get it. And the vaccine we get you when you arrive is not going to be soon enough. So, we're still seeing people with COVID, but it's not spreading this fast in the camps because more people are vaccinated.
Sophie Therber [00:23:48] Yeah, I think so much has changed, I mean, just thinking back to the early days of the pandemic, so in February, March 2020 versus now when we do have access to the vaccines, how kind of if you had to identify a few of the biggest problems, I mean, there's a lot, right? You were talking about crowded transportation, not being able to isolate separately, and things like that. So how have the challenges changed from the early days of the pandemic, before we kind of had an understanding of what was going, on versus the kind of middle of things, not necessarily the middle, but later on when things were kind of getting worse, and now when we do have access to vaccines? How have the different challenges evolved in that time?
Gayle Thomas [00:24:34] I think the earliest challenge was, of course, knowledge we didn't know. Could you get this from surfaces? How close did you have to be to somebody to get it for how long? You know, who was going to get really sick and who is going to be asymptomatically infected? And how many people were asymptomatically infected? You mean, we just didn't know that. And so that made it a whole lot scarier. And the lack of PPE…My program relies heavily on outreach workers. As a physician, I am not as important as the outreach workers. So the outreach workers are people who often are bilingual, bicultural, come from the community and are the bridge between the patient and me, the medical provider. If I just sit in my clinic, I'll never see farmworkers because they can't get to me without an outreach worker. So, our outreach workers are our unsung heroes who go out to the camps to get to know the workers who earn their trust and provide them in non-COVID times with transportation, financial assistance, food assistance and go rescue them when they get stuck in a flooded work camp and 911 won't come. So, they are like, amazing. But at the beginning we didn't have PPE for them. You know, the PPE was, appropriately, going first to the people who are working in the COVID hot zones: the people in the ICUs, people in the ERS who were exposed to known COVID patients. And so, our outreach workers were stuck at home trying to take care of farmworkers over the phone and obviously not feeling comfortable transporting them. And so that was really, really hard this year. Now that outreach workers have the opportunity to be vaccinated, there's plenty of masks to go around, we have a better understanding that surfaces are not as important in transmitting the infection. Now, the outreach workers can actually go out to the camps and see the guys and bring them food. And last year, all they could do basically were porch drops, which they did. But now they can actually interact with the guys. And when everybody's masked, they can put them in a vehicle and take them to appointments and things like that. So, I think the stress now is, first of all, everybody's tired, we're all exhausted. Everybody has been working at, I don't know, one hundred and fifty percent capacity for the last year and a half. And we've been vaccinating as fast as we can. And there's still guys that want vaccines that haven't had access to them. So, I think that stress now, it's just that everybody's tired. And farmworkers, one of the reasons there are marginalized population is they don't get paid time off from work. So, if you want to take care of farmworkers, you have to do it after work hours. Well, they work from sunup to sundown, so that means you're working late at night. So our outreach workers will often go out to the camps starting around seven, 8:00 in the evening. They're there till 10:00, 11:00 when the farmworkers have to go to bed because they have to get up again at four thirty five in the morning. And as a provider, that's when they take me out is late in the evenings. And one other time that farmworkers are available for vaccinations are maybe Saturday afternoon, evening and Sundays. So that's the stress now is how do you find vaccine providers who are willing to go late evenings and weekends? That's not when medical providers tend to want to work. We want our weekends off, too, but that's the only time farmworkers are available, so getting the vaccine to them at times when they're available is the challenge right now. I think the other challenge that we've been having all along is getting testing to them became very clear early on that a test that takes eight days to come back, that means nothing when you're living with 50 guys. I mean, after eight days, everybody is already infected. Now, we have tests that turn around a little bit faster. So, PCR tests that can turn around in 24 to 48 hours, that's better. It's still not good enough. And now we have rapid antigen tests that can come back in 15 minutes. But they're not 100% sensitive or 100% specific, meaning that you can have false positives and false negatives. So, getting testing out to people in rural areas, in labor camps at the end of gravel roads is hard. One of the things that we're trying to do right now is to buy these at-home test kits and to give them to the farmworkers so that they can test if and when they feel like they need it, because their access to testing is so, so poor. And given that we are seeing some breakthrough infections, people who are fully vaccinated that are getting infected, I don't think testing is over. We need vaccines, but we also need testing. That's one of our challenges right now, is getting these at home test kits to farmworkers so they can test if they get symptoms.
Sophie Therber [00:30:13] And can you walk me through...How are you distributing those at home test kits to the farmers? I mean, you were saying it's difficult -- rural North Carolina gravel roads -- but for you or the outreach workers or whoever is doing that, how does that work? How do you end up being able to do that?
Gayle Thomas [00:30:30] Well, it's the outreach workers. So, you know, my program has gotten some funds from the federal government for testing and COVID response. And so we're using those funds to buy these at home test kits and we're giving them to the outreach workers. And we're saying, here, take this with you. When you go to the camp to visit the workers, talk to them about how important it is. Obviously, we have lots of masks, too, now. So, we send out masks and hand sanitizers and, now, these test kits. And let me help you get your vaccine, but even after you get your vaccine, let me help you with this test kit if you want it. So, the outreach workers are taking them. We also are encountering workers in Wal-Mart parking lots. For the last, I guess, four or five months, we've been going to the Wal-Mart parking lot at Rocky Mount and having a health fair there where farmworkers go on Sundays to buy their groceries. We're trying to put ourselves where they are. And also we've gone to some Mexican tiendas or little shops where they tend to go on the weekends as well and handing out those test kits and that PPE and health information and stuff like that there.
Sophie Therber [00:31:46] It's so interesting because there's so much nuance in the way that the COVID response has gone. I mean, especially just because of this time frame of just not really knowing what was going on, and then being overwhelmed, and now having different challenges with distribution of vaccines and testing, like you were saying. And I'm wondering, how does the way that you and your coworkers responded to the -- ah, excuse me -- are continuing to respond to the COVID pandemic, compare to ways that you've responded to extreme weather or flooding or other natural disaster events in the past?
Gayle Thomas [00:32:21] I think that because this has gone on for so long and it's been so universal, it's not just those five counties that are flooded over there, it's all of North Carolina, it's all of the United States, it's all of the world. One thing that's happened, fortunately, this time is that we have been able to make alliances and collaborations with people that we didn't before. And those have been really, really important. So we've been able to collaborate with more of our colleagues within DHHS. We've been able to collaborate with colleagues in the agricultural extension program, in Department of Commerce, in Migrant Head Start and migrant education. So some of these programs that we always knew about each other. Right. But we didn't know each other individually and we didn't try to work together. That has made a huge difference. So, for example, early in the pandemic, we wanted to send masks to farmworkers and we were able to do that with state purchase masks and we were able to deliver thousands of them to the ag extension workers. So every one of the hundred counties in North Carolina have ag extension workers who are focused mostly, mainly on the growers, not on the farmworkers. And so, they have been kind of in a parallel universe to us. And all of a sudden we were able to ask them to help deliver these masks to the farms, which [00:34:08] was huge, was huge. We just don't have as many outreach workers as we need. We don't have outreach workers in all counties, but we did have ag extension agents in all counties. And then in terms of trying to organize the vaccine distribution, we're able to use the AG extension agents again and form some committees of the outreach workers, the ag extension agent and then the vaccine providers. So, the clinics, the health departments, people who are providing the vaccine and trying to help them work together in a collaborative way to meet the needs in their county, because they're the ones that know where the groups of farmworkers are. And then the ag extension agent is able to call the grower because they know the grower and then they're able to help that grower link to a vaccine provider. So that been different and that's been really, really rewarding and very successful.
Sophie Therber [00:35:06] So, do a lot of these partnerships kind of happen on a county-to county-basis? You're working with people who now have more specific contacts about different counties in North Carolina?
Gayle Thomas [00:35:24] Well, they didn't know each other until we introduced them. OK, so this was a sort of a strategy that the team that I work with came up with. Specifically, the state epidemiologist that was assigned to work with us, came up with this idea of forming these local committees. And so, we got these name and numbers and email addresses and we called these people and got them together and held meetings still are holding meetings to try to help them collaborate. So, these were partnerships that were conceived of on the state level and are being enacted on the local county level.
Sophie Therber [00:36:08] Okay, so what is the relationship between the state level planning and the county level plan planning for these kinds of partnerships?
Gayle Thomas [00:36:17] Well, the state level planning came up with the idea of forming these local vaccine teams by county and then pulled the teams together. And now the teams are taking it themselves and many of them are meeting weekly or every other week to talk about, okay, this grower is getting these workers this week who can provide vaccines. Have you called them? Have you talked to them? Has the outreach worker been out there to talk to the workers to make sure their questions have been answered? Has the ag extension agent called the grower to make sure they understand what's going on? So that's kind of how it works.
Sophie Therber [00:37:00] There are a lot of just a lot of different levels of things to consider, because there are so many issues that have come about because of the pandemic and so many specific steps to solve those issues. Like you were saying, like people cold calling people and talking about just what needs to be done. So, can you tell me a little bit more about how you how can you prioritize when there are so many different what needs to be things that need to be done because of the pandemic? How do you decide what to reach out to other people about?
Gayle Thomas [00:37:31] That's a hard call. I mean. You know, it's very overwhelming and there were certainly many times in the past year and a half when my colleagues and I because I'm not alone, I work with a wonderful team of colleagues in Raleigh in the North Carolina Farmworker Health Program. And when we would just feel overwhelmed and I would just have we just have to say, let's just do the next thing. Let's just do the next right thing. We can't do everything, but we're just going to do the next right thing. So, I mean, we tried to prioritize based on what we knew about the disease and what would be most effective and also what we hear from our outreach workers. So, unlike some state organizations, that might be a little detached from what's going on in the ground. We met with our outreach workers every week during the worst part of the pandemic to hear from them. What's going on in your site? What do you need? What you hear? What are the farmworkers saying to you? So, I think listening to the people that we were trying to serve also is very, very important in terms of how you prioritize what you're going to do next.
Sophie Therber [00:38:47] And do you think that in the future, after I mean, the hope is that the pandemic will eventually subside, and we can kind of be moving back to what we used to consider normal and everything. Do you think that any of the practices that you've adopted now because of the pandemic you and your coworkers have adopted now, do you think you'll keep any of those or do you think that that's just kind of a shorter term solution to just a specific issue with the pandemic?
Gayle Thomas [00:39:14] No, we really would like to see these local teams maybe coalesce into regional teams and to continue to bridge this gap between the grower and the farmworker by using these regional teams to do disaster preparedness. So we recognize that these teams have formed in response to the disaster, but we would like to see them continue and be earthquake preparedness teams so that when the next --or, hurricane more likely, preparedness teams -- I'm sorry, back to California where we had earthquakes all the time. Here, we don't have them very often! But, you know, so when the next big hurricane happens and then is expected and flooding is expected, then these teams will already know each other and be able to work more effectively together to get farmworkers to safety, to get farmworkers the food and water they need when they can't drink the water or they don't have electricity or they don't have works, they don't have food, all those kinds of things.
Sophie Therber [00:40:26] So I think it's really interesting.... the importance of collaboration and I mean, you were saying that that's something that you just kind of started because of the pandemic. There was a need to coordinate responses. And that need is definitely going to continue because of the future disasters that will be faced. So can you tell me anything else about how your day-to-day or things that you're doing have changed because of the presence of these other actors, these people who are collaborating? Like, for instance, are you finding yourself kind of taking on more work to coordinate between people? Or do you feel like you've noticed new issues because the new things might be coming to your attention because there are new actors in your job now? What do you think?
Gayle Thomas [00:41:12] Oh, I definitely think there's more work. Yeah, there's always more work. I am not doing all the work myself. Obviously I have this wonderful team that I work with and our collaborators. But, yeah, it takes time to to bring these teams together and to keep them going and to check in with them and to make sure that things aren't just sort of petering out because this was all added stuff. This is all stuff on top of what people are already doing. Right. And they're exhausted and tired, too. And then our vaccinators, you know, they're running around the middle of the night vaccinating people in fields. You know, that gets tiring, too, because then they have to back in their clinic the next day seeing patients and doing their normal stuff. So, this is all on top of what people are already doing. So, it's always more work, I think. You know, I spend my life on Zoom a lot of times right now because we're doing all these local team meetings on Zoom, my wonderful teammates in Raleigh. We're not working in the Office of Rural Health together anymore. We're all meeting on Zoom. So, "Zoom fatigue," or "Teams fatigue" since we have to use Teams, is very real and we're all very, very tired. But the other thing that's opened up is how, how much you can do [dog barks] in a telemedicine call -- Hold on, let me get my dog.
Sophie Therber No worries.
[Brief pause as Gayle lets out her dog]
Gayle Thomas [00:42:55] We developed, for the first time, telemedicine; so, we had we have mobile clinics that we take out to the labor camps and we do primary care. And early in the pandemic, we suspended those because of the lack of PPE and stuff. But now we're back doing those. But we are continuing to do telemedicine. A lot of our workers do have smart phones. They often don't have the Internet. That's one thing we've been trying to get them in the pandemic is to get more Internet to the labor camp. And then then we can talk on the phone and and we can refill their blood pressure medicine and refill their diabetes medicine and do a certain amount of health care on the phone, which is really, really useful for people who are in rural areas. So I hope that's another thing that we're able to continue once the pandemic is over, because I think that's meeting a need that is going to continue.
Sophie Therber [00:44:01] What support do you think that would be most helpful for you to be addressing farmworker health throughout the pandemic and with natural disasters? I know in an ideal world we wouldn't even have those in the first place. But just ideally, if if there were more resources available to you and your coworkers and the farmworker health program, what supports would be helpful?
Gayle Thomas [00:44:24] I think the most important thing we need is more outreach workers. So, as I said before, not every county in every county in North Carolina has farmworkers. Some have many more than some have many less. But not every county has outreach workers. And as I said before, you know, a health care provider like myself without an average worker, we're just not going to be effective in terms of reaching farmworkers. So, I right now, most outreach workers are paid for by federal funds that come through a person. And so that's on a federal level. So I think expanding the number of outreach workers would be the most important thing.
Sophie Therber [00:45:10] And what with expanding our outreach workers, are those....How do you recruit outreach workers or people? Do they come from the state or are they just people who live locally? I mean, where do these people come from?
Gayle Thomas [00:45:24] That's a really good question. No, they come locally. That's their connection to the community. That gives them their super magic powers, because people they look like them. They talk like them. They maybe already are known by them. And so they have entrance into a community where I, a white lady with the Spanish that's spoken with an American accent, I might not. So... But if I go with them to a community, then all of a sudden I have credibility that I wouldn't have had otherwise because the outreach worker has done that. [00:46:08]So they come -- North Carolina is part of their response to the pandemic as a whole, really stood up a big community health care community health worker program, which and that's basically outreach workers for people other than farm. So, in my program, we call them outreach workers. These are people who are not they're not licensed as a nurse or a doctor, but they have this knowledge of the community, and they are this bridge of care. North Carolina started up a big community health worker program to reach other marginalized communities besides farmworkers. And a lot of them did the contact tracing and testing that we saw earlier in the pandemic. That has become less important now because more people are vaccinated, but as cases take back up, might become more important again. And so, we have been finding those community health workers that are bilingual, English, Spanish, and trying to sort of enfold them and recruit them to the farmworker health program. So, yeah, we find them in the community.
Sophie Therber [00:47:30] Throughout, the numbers of these outreach workers, how did that change during the pandemic? I mean, I know that we heard so much just about shortages of health care workers and things like that. Do you feel that you had kind of a sustainable amount of outreach workers, or do you feel like there was room for improvement there?
Gayle Thomas [00:47:51] Well, we've never had enough, so that didn't change. But I was really pleased that we were able to support our outreach workers and keep them in their position. It's a burnout position. They are on the front lines there. They are talking to people who don't have enough food, who don't have access to health care, who are working in dangerous occupations, who are dying of COVID. It's a burnout position. And so, they need a lot of support, both technical support, medical support, but also emotional support. And I feel like we were able to hire a COVID response team and that team was able to then, as I said before, meet weekly with outreach workers just to kind of keep a finger on the pulse of what's going on the ground, how are things changing, but also how are you doing and what can we do to help and support you? So we were able to maintain our workforce and in and increase it with some of the federal emergency funds that we got. We were able to hire some more outreach workers. So never enough. Never enough, but increased that net staff some.
Sophie Therber [00:49:14] Great. Well, thank you so much. I'd just like to add, is there anything else you would like to add or anything else that you'd like just to talk about before I stop the recording?
Gayle Thomas [00:49:23] Well, I just would love people to know that farmworkers are currently exempt from many workplace protections that most of the rest of us have. And that was written into law back in the 1920s when a lot of workplace reforms were made and it was written into law that they were exempt from overtime pay, that they were exempt from disability and lots of different things, because at that time the southern states did not want those workplace rights to be extended to their sharecroppers who were formerly enslaved African-Americans. And so they made sure that those things were exempted. So, it's called agricultural exceptionalism. And it basically sets up a very oppressive and dangerous workplace for farmworkers. And most of us have no idea that that's going on. No idea that child labor is fine on the farm. You can't work at McDonald's, but you can go work in a very dangerous place on the farm and die of heat exhaustion or heat stroke. And that workplace exceptionalism has to stop that. That exploitation has to stop.
Sophie Therber [00:50:49] Wow, did you say the 1920s? Yeah, wow, that's amazing. I mean, that's just that's been around for so long and I mean, wow, I didn't realize that it had been not updated in that much time. That's really...I'm really...thank you so much for sharing that because that's definitely important to know about and that's something that...wow.
Gayle Thomas [00:51:10] And that's one of the reasons they're so vulnerable to COVID, is that they don't have any of these protections that the rest of us take for granted. And I was going to say we're able to get away with it right now because our workforce is primarily undocumented or documented immigrants and they don't feel most of them, they don't feel empowered to speak up and protest.
Sophie Therber [00:51:40] And when you are working with your addressing COVID or you're addressing other disasters in these workplaces that are just, like you said, very dangerous and based off of exploitation, what kind of challenges do you run into that are kind of unique to that kind of workplace and that kind of situation?
Gayle Thomas [00:51:59] Well, for one, we get chased off by growers where they're providing free health care to their workers late at night and they object and they feel like they should be able to control access to their workers and that only people that they allow to come see their workers should be able to come see their workers. So that's one thing that we experience. We experience growers who are like, "no, I don't I don't want my workers to be vaccinated. I don't believe that the vaccine is needed. They're fine." Or, "I don't think my workers need to be rescued from floodwaters." So we just the...And not all growers are like that. Some are very, very concerned about their workers. But the ones that are like that, it's very discouraging. And they often, because of the way the laws are written, they are able to get away with that.
Sophie Therber [00:53:00] That's really interesting and upsetting that the growers have so much kind of control over the well-being of the people that are working there, and that's I mean, really unfortunate that that's an issue that you are running into and your work and other people who are doing similar work. All right, well, thank you so much for your time. I just, I would like to ask again if there's anything you'd like to add.
Gayle Thomas [00:53:23] No, no, that's okay.
Sophie Therber [00:53:26] Thank you. I'm going to go ahead and stop the recording but thank you so much.
End of interview. [00:53:32]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-1005 -- Thomas, Gayle.
Description
An account of the resource
This oral history interview was conducted by Sophie Therber with interviewee Gayle Thomas via Zoom on July 19, 2021. The main focus of this interview is Gayle’s involvement with the Farmworker Health Program and her experience helping farmworkers mitigate the COVID pandemic and extreme weather. Gayle has known from a young age that she wanted to “help poor people,” in her words, and found an opportunity to help Spanish-speaking populations in North Carolina. She shares her personal journey of getting involved in farmworker health, as well as the challenges of including farmworkers in responses to COVID and extreme weather. She emphasizes the importance of the outreach workers who bridge the gap between medical providers and members of the farmworker community. She discusses unique challenges that farmworkers in North Carolina face, such as lack of access to transportation, crowded working conditions, and agricultural exceptionalism promoting a culture of exploitation in their work.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2021-07-19
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29331">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
R1005_Audio.mp3
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/44674ef4d0a68c0151b30559779b37c2.mp3
bcafe01570802bcc016ff69f429450d1
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/bc20b14e62aeb6fee4962ebdf2b3ba3e.pdf
74920634ff316b93ee6570731203c0d7
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-1015
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
Fecha
2023-03-31
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Luna, Martin.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Real estate agents
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1962
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Male
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
La Barca -- Jalisco -- México
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Asheville -- Buncombe County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-102.50327 20.3572079),1962,1;POINT(-82.546957 35.691935),1985,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Luna, Sophia.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
North Carolina resident Martin Luna recounts his experience moving to the United States from Jalisco, Mexico in 1985 as a recently-graduated food engineering student. Luna arrived to work at the Blue Ridge Assembly in Black Mountain, North Carolina over the summer as an international student worker. Throughout the interview he describes the importance of several interpersonal relationships that shaped his work experience and that created the opportunity for him to attempt to pursue graduate school at Clemson University. He references the language barrier as a recurring challenge in his U.S. education. He also describes the role mental health had in his experiences in the U.S. Luna reflects on his experiences in both Mexico and the U.S.’s education systems, and closes the interview describing the kinds of challenges current Latin American immigrant students face within education systems and how they compare to the ones he experienced.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Martin Luna by Sophia Luna, 31 March 2023, R-1015, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29328
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Higher Education; Language and communication; Migratory experience; Separation and reunification; Receiving communities
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Inmobiliarios
Es: Género de entrevistado
Hombre
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Residente de Carolina del Norte Martin Luna relata su experiencia cuando se mudo a los Estados unidos desde Jalisco, México, en 1985. Era un estudiante de ingeniería de alimentos recién graduado. Luna llegó con el propósito de trabajar en el Blue Ridge Assembly en Black Mountain, Carolina del Norte durante el verano como un estudiante trabajador internacional. A lo largo de la entrevista él describe la importancia de muchas relaciones interpersonales que formaron su experiencia y crearon la oportunidad de intentar asistir a la escuela de posgrado en Clemson University. Resalta la barrera del idioma como un tema recurrente durante su educación estadounidense. También describe el papel que la salud mental tuvo en su experiencia en los Estados Unidos. Luna refleja su experiencia educativa tanto en México como en los Estados Unidos, y termina la entrevista con una descripción de los retos que estudiantes inmigrantes de Latinoamérica hoy en día enfrentan dentro de sistemas educativos y como aquellos se comparan a los que él experimentó.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Martin Luna por Sophia Luna, 31 March 2023, R-1015, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Comunidades receptoras; Educación superior; Lenguaje y comunicación; Experiencia migratoria; Separación y reunificación
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
[00:00:00]
[START OF RECORDING]
Sophia Luna [00:00:04]: Okay. It's 9:26 in the morning on March thirty first--March 31, 2023, and I am on a Zoom call joined by Martin Luna in his home in Asheville, North Carolina. So, can you describe--.
Martin Luna: Hey.
SL: A little bit about where you're from and what your life was like there?
ML [00:00:26]: Well, I was born in La Barca, which is a little town in Jalisco, close to Guadalajara. But, but I, growing up in Mexico, I kind of grew up in different cities because my dad worked for a bank and he was promoted, or he was tired of working in a place, so he used to move around. So, I lived in a lot of different cities, you know, in Sonora, in Mexico City, Guadalajara, Puebla, Querétaro, Toluca. So all those towns, some of them big towns, big cities, other ones, small--well, they were all cities--made me appreciate my countryside, and also learn to, to move around. So I was very close to my family because we were like, I have three brothers, four brothers and one sister. So we did a lot of things together growing up. So I was, you know, very family oriented, very, you know, driven, you know. [00:01:51] And I was one of the first ones to go to a private middle school and high school and then private college. My other siblings, they just went to state college. So it made a difference, you know, for me. It was very academic oriented, so I was striving to do my best in elementary school, middle school, high school. My parents never pressed me to study. They never pressed us to, you know, they just kind of coached us to do our best. But they never pressed us as far as academically. So it was more like my inner side motivation to always, you know, do what I can and do my best and learn as much as I could.
SL: Yeah. So where were you living when you started those private schools that you mentioned in Mexico?
ML [00:02:51]: We moved from Guadalajara to Mexico City, so I had to drive, I had to travel on the bus by myself. I was, I don't know, I was, I was probably you know, I was coming out of elementary school. So my mom took me to a bus and then I had to travel all the way to Mexico City because my dad was already working in the bank in Mexico City. And I remember when I got to the bus station, I was like, I started walking, following the people, and it was like a sea of people that I didn't know, and being so petite, you know, so I was petite. I was, I was one of the first one or the second one. Out of sixty people I was the shortest one. Anyway, I was very intimidated by that. But then finally I saw a smiling face and I recognized my dad, and I was like, “Oh, [Laugher] thank God he's there.” But yeah, so and I remember going to that middle school, you know, there's of course there's no school buses in Mexico. So I had to take public transportation, and mom raising four children back then, it was, always to do everything on my own and walk, you know, a couple of blocks and take the public bus. And sometimes it was so crowded [laughs].
SL: Yeah.
ML: That I had to, I had to just grab--. [Audio briefly cuts out due to internet connectivity issues]. Until people move up and then I could, you know, crawl up to the to the safer area. Never, never a seat because there’s always crowded. [laughs]
SL: And so when you when you started at that different school, like did you notice did you notice that it was different from the public school that you had gone to before or that your siblings were going to at the time or?
ML [00:04:46]: Of course. Of course, yeah. So, it was like night and day. You know, we only had one teacher for the whole elementary school for the [inaudible]. And there was kind of a very, you know, unformal informal but here it was very structured. Have like five or six classes every day. And all of them, you know, always pushing for doing our best. And also in this particular school it was just men. So we were just men just children. You know, middle schoolers. There was no female students. And it was run by an organization that was, you know, Catholic. Hermanos Maristas. So Maurice Brotherhood. So it was very prestigious and very difficult to get in because a lot of people wanted to study there, because of the formation, you know, academic formation.
SL: Yeah. So then how did it come about between you and your parents or your family that you decided to go to that prestigious school? Did you decide or was it--.
ML: I lost you. [laughs].
SL: Your parents, or you made the decision--.
ML: I lost you. I didn't hear anything. I didn't hear anything repeat that question, please?
SL: Oh, so when you when you mentioned that you were the only one of your siblings to go to this private school. So was that your decision or was that a decision that your parents sought out for you?
ML: Okay. I only heard my decision or my parents' decision. We having bad communication right now, so I only heard that. So, no, it was kind of. [00:06:47] My mom was kind of looking around, where should I go? And of course, he had relatives that they were in that organization, you know, in that brotherhood. So she kind of reached out to them to see if I could get in. But actually it was more academically their decision. That it was better. And of course, it was going to be, there was a cost, there was a tuition, of course. So they decided it was better for my education.
SL: Okay. And so then that was middle and high school. And so then moving, fast forwarding a bit, can you describe what your experience was like after high school and choosing to pursue higher education, whether that be in Mexico or whether when you decided to or if you decided to move to the United States?
ML: Okay. So in that particular school I met a lot of people, made friends and so forth. Some of them had the opportunity to travel to the United States. So the culture back then, for me, it was like I like a lot of American music and, you know, see TV programming and so forth; Of course dubbed in Spanish. But I was also taking English classes, you know, since middle school. I think it was more high school. In high school, I started taking English classes. So that opened up a little bit more of a desire to come to the United States in high school and actually I had a friend that was able to travel and do an exchange student. And then when he came back, he was like us, you know, really, really talking really. It was a great experience for him. So that kind of put the seed of me trying to do that. And I tried to. My dad, my dad at some point sent me to the border because he had an uncle, and I because I had really good grades that was my reward. He couldn't send me to; He didn’t know anybody to send me, you know, to the United States, but he knew somebody at the border. So I ended up going to a, you know, summer course of English, but it was in the Mexican side. So it made a big difference because you knew that you were like learning the structure, the grammar. But we were not practicing it because we were in Mexico. [laughs]. So it was an experience. It was really hot. So I was at right at the border of Matamoros. [00:09:39] But anyway, my transition to college was very interesting because I wanted to move to. I never liked Mexico City. I mean, I was safe and, you know, adapted, but I didn't like the fact that there was very little sun, very dark, a lot of traffic, some sort of crime. Anyway, because we traveled so many places there were other cities that were beautiful and that felt really good. So my dad got another job in Puebla and he was moving the whole family to Puebla. Two of my brothers were already in college, so they couldn't move. So they, they, they were going to stay in Mexico City. I wanted to move to Guadalajara, but my parents said no. Because they couldn't afford to split the family in three ways. So I had to follow suit. But there was like five or six universities in Puebla. And I chose the best and the most expensive one.
SL: [Laughter].
ML: And that kind of my parents, they did the effort to send me to the Universidad de las Americas Puebla, which is between Puebla and Cholula, and it's a very prestigious university. It's actually back then was the only one, or one of the few ones recognized by the Southern Association of the Board of Colleges in the United States. So that was a major thing back then. But anyway, I was not thinking about moving to the United States at all. I was just going over there to learn and I chose an engineering degree, which was a field that very few people; It was kind of a new career. It was food engineering. Like chemical engineering specializing in food. And I excelled there. I was one of the few students that finished the course. We started like thirty, thirty-seven students. And in Mexico to study to get a degree in college it's always five years.
SL: Right.
ML: Not four. So, so, so it was five years. And back then out of thirty-seven students from my generation, there were three that we finished. And also there were like three others that we catch [caught] up that they were behind. So we were like six or seven. I graduated in 1985.
SL: Okay.
ML: And at that time I also took English courses and I met all American people that were studying over there. So I had some connections, you know, with people from the United States. Of course, I was immersed in the city, so I had to take two buses to go to the college, you know, from where I live to go to the center of the city and then take another bus to go to Cholula. And anyway, I met a lot of people, made a lot of friends. And I was actually, like, my fourth year, I got into-- I was the president of my career in food engineering. And in that I met some people, some presidents of other areas. You know, there was like, I don't know, like sixteen different fields, careers. So we used to get together and do things, you know, to promote the university or for the good of everybody. [00:13:26] And I met a guy who told me about this excellent program that he went to and basically that it was in Black Mountain, North Carolina. And that basically if you were accepted they will give you a visa, a work study visa, and give you room and board and you could work there during the summer time. And so that was that became a dream for me to go once he told me about it.
SL: Yeah.
ML: That kind of started changing my life a little bit [laughs].
SL: Right. So, can you describe a little bit the process of what applying for this program in Black Mountain was like and how long that took, or just your general, like, experience applying for that program?
ML: Well, it was kind of difficult to get in because when he told me about it and I applied, he told me like in in April. In April, something like that, that's when I learned about this. So I applied immediately. And of course they sent me a letter saying they rejected me because they said it's already, you know, we already have the staff. You know, the American people plan ahead. So it was not like, hey, you can come now [laughs].
SL: Right [laughs].
ML: Last minute, last minute. But back then, I didn't know. I didn't know. I just started the process and I was intimidated because I had to fill out the form in English and I didn't know who to ask. So I did it on my own. My parents never speak English, so, um, and I didn't. I was kind of a solo person. I never asked for advice or I didn't know who to ask, you know, basically. But anyway, I was rejected. And then what I did is I went ahead and reapplied in November and I sent you know, they asked me for three reference letters. So I got my letters, I got everything. And then I got accepted. And then I got the letter. It was one of my happiest moments in my life because I knew that it was going to be something that I really wanted to try not knowing how it was going to be. But I just wanted to try, and to have that experience of being in another country.
ML: My parents, you know, tried to send me. But it was very expensive, really. So, this was like a big accomplishment for me. And that happened right after I graduated from college, you know. My dad did a big celebration. We got a lot of family gathering to celebrate my accomplishment. And then a few days later, I had to take a bus and come to the United States. Since I have like certain deadline to arrive, I was supposed to take a bus right after my graduation. But it was the party and we had so many family at home that one of my uncles said: “Well, don't worry about going on bus. I'll fly you in.”
SL: Oh, okay.
ML: So he was hoping to fly me all the way to here. But when he started checking on the prices and everything, he realized how expensive it was.
SL: [Laughter]
ML: To fly from Puebla or from Mexico City to Asheville. He went ahead and just flew me to Matamoros.
SL: Okay.
ML: And then from there I took the bus, which was fine. It was fine with me because I was going to do the whole, whole tour in a bus. I already had my ticket anyway. And back then it was like for fifty dollars, you could buy a ticket and you could go anywhere in the United States for, for, you know, seven days. You could travel all over the place with fifty dollars during seven days.
SL: Interesting. Okay. Can you remember what it was like when you first arrived or what your first impressions were of Black Mountain, and just what your general experience was, I guess in the first weeks and months of you living there and what you were doing in the program, too.
ML: [00:17:35] Sure. Well, I got really welcomed. I was very welcomed. They, you know, they sent somebody to pick me up in a band. Well, arriving, of course, traveling in a bus, I was like looking at a lot of terrains and a lot of time to think about different things. But I remember, you know, from seeing different sceneries. And then once we started getting to Hendersonville, I started seeing a lot of green and a lot of green. Never seen so much green during the summertime. You know, like everywhere. So I was very, very impressed with the beauty of the mountains and the beauty of the forest. So when this guy picked me up, took me over there, I was kind of late because I kind of took a detour. I got like two days late. I didn't got to the orientation. I got there like two days after because I took a detour to go to Orlando and meet some family member and then came back. I was just because I have that advantage of the--. [laughs].
SL: [Laughter]
ML: You could travel right for free.
SL: Right. [laughs]
ML: Well, as long as wherever you want to go. I went to Orlando, but I didn't visit anything. I was just. It was just wasting time, really, because I didn't do anything [laughs].
SL: [Laughter]
ML: But anyway. I was really welcome. Everybody was friendly. Everybody was very, you know, young. Most of the people were younger than me, but they were very, very friendly. Because most of the staff was college. So they were in college, or some of them they were in Master’s, but we were kind of similar age. And the center was very organized. And, you know, to make the experience even better. And some of the jobs were kind of tedious. They rotate every three weeks. So every three weeks you change. Two or three weeks, you change to a different department. So making it fun. And of course, every time you--[Audio briefly cuts out due to internet connectivity issues].
SL: You were mentioning how at the place you worked, they changed every three weeks to keep things interesting for the people working there.
ML: Yes. Yes, and so I felt very welcome. This YMCA is one of the largest facilities in the southern area, the southern region. It is owned by ten different states around North Carolina. It’s a conference center. So they bring people or different groups through the week or for the weekend to have a conference. So some of them were small, like two hundred people, other ones were like fifteen hundred people. So we were about maybe, let’s see, I’m trying to remember. We were twenty men and maybe thirty or forty women plus the management people. And we were, you know, in different places on the campus. It’s a huge campus. So every week we had to change everything.
SL: Right.
ML: At the conference they were coming to learn a lot of different things so we had to set the whole campus to their needs. And then, so they’ve been doing this since 1908. You know the center was founded back then. So through the years it's been very well organized, there's a lot of brotherhood, there's a lot of history and it's very well organized. So when I came I was very impressed that everything was so organized and we had fun and also played and made it very interesting. So, through the whole two and a half month experience every weekend we had themed parties. New year’s, Christmas in July, international night, a talent show, different things--Hawaiian party--different activities that kept us engaged and kept us having fun, and made the work kind of easy.
SL: Yeah.
ML: And there were always opportunities. So I took one opportunity myself and I noticed that the people that work less were the lifeguards [laughs].
SL: [Laughter].
ML: So I find out how I can become a lifeguard [laughs].
SL: [Laughter].
ML: So I took the class, and I got my certificate of lifeguard. So I was able to work, you know, and that was the most fun thing to do because you just clean, give a little bit of maintenance to the pool, and just sit down and see people and enjoy the sun [laughs].
SL: [Laughs]. Right.
ML: And get paid without having to clean or having to do a lot of work [laughs].
SL: That's funny. So being, you mentioned that you moved, you started this program right after finishing college and your engineering degree. So when you were living in Black Mountain and in North Carolina were you aware of any, you know, educational opportunities that interested you? Or were you wanting to continue your education in the United States? What was your sense of the educational sphere of North Carolina?
ML [00:23:47]: Well, for me, back then my priority was to feel fluent in the language. And I knew that my English was very very limited. I remember when I put in my application that I speak 80 percent of English. I knew 80 percent. But I realized I didn’t know. I mean I knew the grammar and the structure but I didn’t know how to speak. You know. So to me that was kind of an obstacle, a big obstacle. So I did want to learn the language. My first--I knew that the program was going to finish so I tried to figure out how to stay more. And I knew that the assembly was the YMCA Blue Ridge Assembly, so the assembly was hiring people to stay a little bit longer. And I wanted to stay. And I expressed my interest of staying, but they already hired other people that they had in mind. So I didn’t, I was not accepted. But when I talked to one of the executes about my desire to stay he kind of hooked me up with another executive from another town and said “Hey, this guy wants to stay as an exchange student.” You know, so he offered me, the gentleman offered me an opportunity to live in his home so I could continue with this experience and continue with learning the language. So I lived like two months with them in their home. And then when my visa expired I had to go back to Mexico.
SL: Right.
ML: And that was something that I had to do it on my own again. Nobody told me “Hey, you can stay.” I said “Well my visa will expire at the end of October, so I have to go back to my family.” And I did. So when I went back to Mexico, in my mind, I was like “Oh, that was a great experience, I feel better about the language, but I want to work on my field.” So I went to the town that I wanted to live, which was Guadalajara, and started looking for all the industries to find work and just start interviewing by myself. Talking to people saying “Hey, I just graduated from the university, I can help you.” I started offering my services. Because most people, they didn't know what food engineering could do in their industry. Remember I kind of went to like six or sevent interviews that I introduced myself to see if they were hiring and that I was available.
SL: Right. Right. So, did anything--.
ML: And then--.
SL: Go ahead.
ML: And then what happened was I went back to my parents to celebrate Christmas and New Year’s, and when I was back in Puebla, because I spent maybe a month exploring job opportunities in Mexico. A month, a month and a half and I was staying with relatives. Then I went to Puebla to see my parents, finally. [00:27:14] When I was there I got a phone call that changed my whole life. Because one of the executives called me and said “Hey, Martin, we really enjoyed your work ethic and we really would like for you to come back next year, would you like to do that?” And since I had a wonderful experience I said “Yes, of course!” So that phone call, without consulting anybody, I was like “Wow! That's great! I can go back!” Changed my whole life because then I was not pursue--I got distracted and was not pursuing my professional career. I kind of put that on the side and said “Well, I just need to work part time, you know, in another area or do something while I wait until I go back to United States.”
SL: Okay.
ML: So that’s what I did. I got a temporary job at the beach and I was using my English as I was working in a Japanese restaurant [laughs]. In a Japanese restaurant I was hired there. And I worked there for a while but it was hard to be on my own, to be honest. I was not used to being on my own, living by myself and making decisions by myself because we were always in a group. So YMCA was great because I had a brotherhood, a family, and I didn't have to worry about cleaning, cooking, or basic things. You know, so it was learning. But when I was in this beach, I was staying with some people first, but then, you know, they didn’t treat you as nice as the United States [laughs].
SL: Right.
ML: So it was a lot of decisions of: “How I'm going to get to my job? Where am I going to be living? Where am I going to stay?” And the accommodations they gave me were not the greatest ones. But anyway, I didn’t last too long there. When I got tired and just flew to Mexico City and went back to my parents and just waited until my opportunity to go back to the United States came.
SL: Right. And so what was your second experience like in the United States, and what did you do after the Blue Ridge Assembly?
ML: Sure. So it was even better, started meeting people again and then said “Well, I would like to stay here longer. How can I stay longer?” And it was three choices I had: One was, a friend from Nigeria says “Well you can join the army, they can definitely probably let you stay.” The other one was going back to college, and the third one was, you know, well if you get married you could probably stay also.
SL: Right.
ML [00:30:23]: But in my mind, it was more like “Well why don't I try to go back to college and try to get a Masters?” I knew several people from the University of Americas who had done that in different cities. In different countries. Some of them went to Germany, other ones went to Spain, and some to the United States. I knew it was going to be costly so I started to explore that. So I took some trips, I went to [pause] one lady lived in Raleigh so we went to the, I visited the university of, State University in North Carolina. And I didn’t know anything about Clemson, but there was some people from Blue Ridge Assembly that they were the directors of the YMCA in Clemson, and one of them offered me, opened up some opportunities there. So I kind of liked that, and started talking to the directors in Clemson and they said “Yeah, you can come here and help you.” In other words, there were some doors that started to open for me.
SL: Right
ML: So, I went and applied to Clemson. I got a place to stay, and they let me stay there. I paid for my room, for my board. For my food [laughs].
SL: Right
ML: The room was free, my food I paid for it. And then it was an opportunity to decide what I was going to do. And I visited the food science department. And because they knew I had the degree already in that field, they gave me a job.
SL: Right.
ML: So, the things were happening for me. But legally, I was there physically but as far as--how do you say--the credits, getting the credits, I was not admitted officially. I was kind of exploring what I was going to do, and I realized I needed to take more English classes. Because I felt that my English was really bad. The science I already knew, in Spanish.
SL: Right.
ML: And in English. But I was more interested in: What can I do with my field? How can I take what I know to use it in Mexico? And I realized that first I needed to improve my English, which was a big task for me.
SL: Right.
ML: You know, it was difficult. It was difficult because, again, I was by myself but I needed to master that so I could function. Like I am functioning right now.
SL: Right, right. So you hinted a little bit at it, but how did you feel like your degree from the University of the Americas…How did you feel like it translated to the United States and to Clemson specifically? In your opinion?
ML [00:33:50]: Well, it was a good opportunity for me to be there because people were very open, people respect me, you know, the doctors that I talked to. There was Dr. Moore, who was the permanent doctor in food industry and food science. He was kind of my mentor. He took me in, he gave me opportunity to work in the laboratory and start organizing everything there. And pretty much, I was probably, he wanted me to work on research but he knew that I needed time to adjust.
SL: Right.
ML: So, again, the sky was the limit there. We went to a lot of, well, you know being part of the food science group I met several students from other countries. I remember there was an assistant to Dr. Moore who was working on his PhD too, or Masters, that he kind of took me under his wing and he was helping me to fill out the forms which I was very intimidated. And helped me to get into the program, and also, um, so there was a lot of people very welcome. They went through my shoes, came before me, and they were studying and we went to several food events. I remember going to Atlanta to meet Dr. Labuza. Dr. Labuza was very famous for his research in water activity, you know, something that was, back then, really one of the fields that I remember. There are, I mean, so many fields in food industry. But anyway, I was meeting famous people that, before, it was just on a paper.
SL: Right.
ML: That I read about their articles on paper or on books, and I was very, you know, impressed meeting those people in person. And talk to them. Anyway, so everything was going well, and I thought it was a good opportunity for me. [00:36:17] But I had two tragedies that changed my life [laughs]. One, and it was I don’t know, just destiny. But basically, I needed to take two tests for being the next semester enrolled officially. One was the TOEFL. You know, the test for English as a second language proficiency. It’s a proficiency test to tell the university that if you can do it. That your English is good. And the other one is the GRE, I think. Graduate Record Examinate. The GRE. Which was a little bit more tougher that all the American people needed to take. The first one is just for foreign students. The second one was for all, you know, anybody that wanted to do a graduate study. So, the first one you know, unfortunately it was not offered on campus. It was in another city which was Greenville. So I needed to travel over there. And I didn’t know, you know it was on a Saturday morning. So talking to my people that I knew, there was another Chinese student that was going to take it. And I learned through my supervisor that says “This person needs to take it.” So I talked to him and I asked him if he could take me to the place, to Greenville, and he said “Yes, I’ll take you.” And then we set up a place and a time to meet. And then the second one was going to be offered there in the college, so I was already enrolled to take it there.
So I think it was like the end of October, or around October. It was around October when I took the test, I was supposed to meet this Chinese student to take the test. And I remember I got up in the morning early, and it was raining, it was pouring rain and everything. And I was out there in the corner where we were supposed to meet, and it was dark, and I was there for almost forty-five minutes and he didn’t show up. And I stayed there and stayed there and I never saw it, he never came back to pick me up. He probably did, but because of the language barrier maybe he didn’t know where I was and maybe he--I don't know. I don’t know what happened but he never showed up. And I was supposed to be there at 9, but by 8:30 I started crying and crying because, you know, that was very important for me to be in there. So I went to see other friends, and they didn’t have cars, so they couldn’t do anything. And they said “Don’t worry about it, don't worry about it,” but I felt, like, defeated because I wasn’t going to get into the next semester enrollment. And so, from then I started to feel, you know, and I didn't know back then, but I started to feel depressed because I didn’t know what to do. When I took the second test, I was encouraging to do it but when I took it I also felt defeated because it was really really difficult [laughs].
SL: [Laughs] Yeah, the GRE is…
ML [00:39:46]: It was very difficult, and I felt like a failure. Like “I failed, so what am I going to do? How am I going to get into the official Master’s degree?” And all this is the pressure that I knew it was costing me money, and I knew that my parents could not afford to send me to college, so kind of, I got into a depression stage.
SL: Yeah.
ML: I knew Christine, and Christine wanted to help me out and she always wanted to say “Well, you know maybe college is not for you. Maybe you can come to Asheville, come back to Asheville, and you can find a job here in Asheville and do something else.” And I felt like yes, that would be an option, but I really wanted to--I was kind of feeling like the opportunity to study and be in college for, was going to be much better. So I got into a depression. And back then I didn’t, never had depression before, nobody knew about it in my family. I got really depressed so I went back to Mexico defeated.
ML: And when I got back to Mexico, unfortunately my parents were transitioning from one, from Puebla to Guadalajara and the situation, the dynamics were not really good. They were renting a small place that was too small for the family, so it was very, it added more stress. In a good note, by then there was like, already, job opportunities for me and I got into a job as a food engineer and I worked in the Sabrita plant. But I was comparing that job with what I lived here in the United States and the freedom and what I was doing, it was like night and day. Even though I had a job there now I was not happy. My heart was in United States, my heart was in this area of North Carolina, And I wanted to come back. So I decided to come back one more time, so I didn’t gave up. [laughs].
SL: [Laughter] Yeah, right! So what was that like? Was that the last time you came, when you decided you know like you said not to give up, or how did that come about and what happened after that?
ML: Well, you know, through the whole time when I was in Clemson I was dating Christine, and she used to come visit me on weekends or every other weekend when she could. So we, you know, I kind of started being interested in her because she was always there for me, you know. Actually she took me from The Assembly to Clemson, and then when she knew where I was then she was coming every other week or every week. We had fun events, I remember one time we, you know, both being Catholics, the priest from the parish where I was staying in Clemson, he was doing outreach to migrant workers in another place called Walhalla. So I told him that I played the guitar, and he says: “Well why don’t you come over to celebrate mass on the field?” And I did the first time, and I realized that I needed music so the next time I brought my guitar and make it more fun. And Christine went one time with me to those outreach, going to visit the migrants and bringing the word of God on their own homes. You know, they were living in trailers in the middle of the mobile home park we celebrate mass and I was playing the guitar. So that was really really nice.
SL: Yeah
ML: Anyways, um, she was, you know, always offering me “Come back to my home.” So we continued to write letters when I was in Mexico defeated. So she said “Come back here, you can find a job, we can. There’s opportunities here.” So she was always having faith in me that my dream could come true.
SL: Yeah.
ML [00:44:35]: So I came back the third time and I actually came back with another friend. And then we wanted to plan our wedding but, kind of, things moved quickly and we got married.
SL: Right.
ML: [Laughter].
SL: And what year was it when--what year was it that you came back the third time, and then were married?
ML: Eighty-seven. 1987.
SL: Okay.
ML: 1987.
SL: And just for the sake of anyone listening to this interview in the future, can you describe who Christine is and how you met her for the first time?
ML: [Laughter]
SL: Just for context.
ML: Well Christine is my wife, my companion for thirty-five years. So she’s my wife. We met in 1986 in my second summer here. Not--she didn’t work in our field, it just happened. It was like, God put us together, to be honest, you know? I’m a very strong believer, and back in Mexico I always was praying for God for the right person to meet. And basically, through all this events that happened in my life, the way we met it was kind of a coincidence. Because she never went--I think that was the only time she went from Weaverville to Black Mountain, where I was. But I was working at the YMCA but we met in a local bar back then it was called the Town Pump… Town Pump? And we went there with my friends, from Mexico, on a night that they said “Hey let's go down to Black Mountain.” So I did. It was a group of five people, you know, boys and girls. And she came too, out of coincidence, because she didn’t planned to be there at all but one of her friends went and got her out of her job to go--she didn’t want to go by herself because her boyfriend, this girl’s boyfriend--her name is Lisa--and Lisa’s boyfriend was playing in a band, and he was playing in this particular place on that night. So she went and talked to the boss and said “Hey, can you let her come tonight?” And the boss did, Mr. Boyd, I remember his name, Mr. Boyd did let her out earlier. So they went there, and I was there with my friends, and then I remember my friend Paco said “Hey, there’s a lady outside that speaks Spanish. There’s two ladies out there that speak Spanish, let’s go meet them.” So I went outside, and actually Lisa, it was, she didn’t speak Spanish. She’s an American. [laughs].
SL: [Laughter]
ML: And Lisa, I mean Christine, was both English and Spanish. So we started talking in Spanish and so forth. So we connected and we invited them to come back the next day for another event at The Assembly. Which was the talent show, which was open to anybody. And so we were hoping that both of them were going to come but in the end Christine just showed up. And from then, we kind of started developing a relationship.
SL: Right.
ML: And I remember vividly one time when I called her, she said “Hey”--her mom answered the phone--she said “Hey, would you like to come visit us?” and she say, “You know, we’d like you to come have dinner with us because we’re going to have steak.” and I said “Yes!” And you know the ironic thing is that that night we were going to have steak, too, at The Assembly.
SL: Oh!
ML: That night, but I said yes because I wanted to be out of The Assembly, I wanted to meet other people. So, I went and met her family, and there were some relatives visiting and so forth. But anyway, in the end it just happened that the food was delicious. Country food, it was potatoes and green beans and, and flavors that I never had. Well I tasted them at The Assembly but it was homemade, not bulk [laughs].
SL: [Laughter]. Yeah, that makes sense.
ML: Not bulk recipes.
SL: That difference matters, right.
ML: So I was like “Wow!” And I said to Christine's mom, “Hey, wow you’re a great cook, congratulations!” By the way, she’s from Colombia, and so I felt like I was at home. And she said, “No, no I didn't do the cooking. Christine did.” And I was like “Wow! Really?” [laughs].
SL: [Laughter]
ML: And I was really surprised because being so young--I think back then I was twenty-two, she was nineteen--I was like “Wow!”
SL: Yeah.
ML: “Congratulations, you really know how to cook.” Because it was a great meal. A great meal. So all those little things started to, you know, be in my mind. That we connected and that we, you know, eventually got married.
SL: Right, yeah. So, fast forwarding, or kind of switching like fast forwarding or looking to wrap up. After your third time coming to the states, like you describe and kind of coming back from that, as you put it: Trying one more time and not giving up and getting married to Christine--which is all well over I guess twenty years ago--when you think about your life now, I guess how do you view education, or educational experiences that maybe even some of your kids have had, how do you view them in light of the ones you had both in Mexico and the United States?
ML: Well, um, okay so could you rephrase that question?
SL: Yeah. So, when you think about education now like in 2023 in the United States, as you've been living here several years--several decades--how do you think education compares now than it did in the past, when you were part of education and part of the education system?
ML [00:51:28]: Sure. Well, through technology and through the new way of opportunities that students have, the world is shrinking quite a bit. There is more opportunities for new students, definitely. I mean I realize that people that really like school or they like to do something different, they kind of cling to their friends--in other words, there's a dynamic between teachers and students.
ML: You know, there’s a lot of students who are forced to go to school. There’s other students that love to go to school. And teachers kind of guide those students, well try to guide everybody, to do their best but not everybody has that call and not everybody is smart academically. [Clears throat]. The main thing here that I see is that the people that have, from experience, sometimes people have the opportunity to go to college and they have these scholarships and they want to succeed in college, but when they get there they are shocked because it’s not like a public school. Because they know they have to write important papers and they don’t know how to. I would not know how to, you know, if I had to write a paper when I was talking, you know, back thirty years ago. It's stressful. So not all the schools, not all the students have the same tools to succeed. Especially in public schools. So it’s important to take your education seriously, and unfortunately a lot of students, they don't. They take it for granted, they just want to use space but they aren’t looking about the future. In college, I know that if you are around people that want to help you can succeed easily. Like I felt--Even though my language was limited--I felt that, again, international students that they were in the same boat that I was, they were encouraging me to succeed. And I remember that. The problem is sometimes--I’m just going to give you an example. I knew of a lady that her son wanted to be a doctor. And she got a full ride to go to UNC Chapel Hill. And he went there very excited about it, and within a semester he came back defeated. And I don’t know all the details, but he came back with depression. And he felt that he was not welcome. He felt that he did not know where to go. And that’s what happens when you don’t have a core group of friends, or meet friends that can help you, you know, try it and know that you can do it. That happens quite a bit and quite more often, you know, that's why we see all these shootings. Those people are either mad or they’re depressed or they’re not welcome, and those things that are happening here in the United States it's a shame. Because, you know, not even in Mexico I remember somebody shooting a student, you know a student shooting their peers. Because there’s always some sort of--I mean there's frivolity and everything--but the worst that could happen is just, you know, fighting themselves. Like men. [laughs].
SL: Right.
ML: But not with a gun, not with a gun. But anyway. I don’t know if I'm answering your question but that’s what I see. [00:56:06] Right now, the opportunities that you can travel abroad and go learn from other places, come back and still get credits, that’s unbelievable. Unbelievable. I wish I had that opportunity when I was in college because that’s what I wanted to do. To come in a safe environment and come back to my home, but I didn’t know how. But now that people, and that’s what, we’ve been encouraging to do that to Jessica, to Robbie, to you, to go to another country and meet other people and come back and have more life experience that will open up the doors. Definitely coming here opened up this door for me, to work and you know through trial and effort find the right job for me. In my case, we haven't talked about that part yet, but in my case even though I have a food engineering degree and I wanted to use it for good, the language barrier limited it in the beginning. And then I saw a need here--eventually after trying different jobs--I did work in a plant here locally in a food beverage plant locally, but I felt like I was more in a prison after a while because it was just confined in an environment that was very routine [laughs].
SL: Yeah, that makes sense.
ML: It wasn't until I got into real estate that it’s very challenging career. Very fulfilling because you’re helping people get their homes, helping them with the most important decision they can make financially. You know the most biggest financial decision that they can make. But there's so many opportunities for people here for homeownership. So I've been helping the Hispanics to get their home and have some sort of stability. And open up opportunities for them.
SL: Yeah.
ML: And of course in real estate, as a realtor, completely the rules change, the contracts change everything change, so--the technology has changed, to sell real estate--so it’s very challenging. There’s not a routine, you know, that I can’t handle the routine.
SL: That makes sense.
ML: I need variety, I need contact with people. So that’s why I chose that career eventually, you know, because I saw that there was a big need for people to buy homes. And the way it came to me this opportunity was because first I started selling satellite dishes, and they didn't own their houses. And when I got into real estate I could sell them both the land and the satellite. And I did that for a while, you know for a couple of years or so. But now it’s not necessary. I have clients that they are investors now, clients that are first-time home buyers, clients that they need to sell their home because they have other transitions in their lives. But yeah, the real estate has been able to open up doors for other people and me too because I’ve met some wonderful realtors, wonderful people, and wonderful, you know all different types of people that are moving to Asheville. New friends and old friends. And it’s a great career, a great career for me.
SL: Yeah.
ML: In this case, it's going to allow me to retire soon. Hopefully.
SL: Yeah! [laughs] So I just have one last question, and it’s do you think that the experience-- the challenges you faced when you were at Clemson University and things like that and places like that, do you think the challenges you faced then are similar, or different, or at all changed from the ones that people or students who are originally born in another country, like Mexico or Central America--or anywhere in Latin America--do you think that the challenges you had are different from the ones they have today?
ML [1:01:00]: Well I think they are--there’s always going to be great challenges for everybody. There’s always going to be, you know anytime you change your environment to a new environment there’s always going to be challenges. It’s what you do about it, how do you react to it? That’s why you have to have a good core, core friends or family that can help you when you’re feeling down. I always encourage, you know being a man of faith, I always encourage somebody who goes to a university to be surrounded by, you know, by students that they go to church and they have the same faith. Because they are going to help you to succeed. You can't succeed by yourself, never. Never. You always need other people. Good people that can help you succeed, and could be a good teacher, good professor, good, older student. I think that’s very important not to stereotype that, you know, a lot of times you feel like “Okay I’m in this level, I can only relate to these people because they’re on the same level.” There’s always learning experience from older people and from younger people, the thing is that are we open to listening to those, to their experience?
SL: Yeah.
ML: So you don’t fail. Like I’m thinking about this kid that he didn't make it when he had all these opportunities, it’s because he didn’t have that core, you know, group of friends, or the family who was not able to listen to his needs, and figure out. And it's hard to give--as an immigrant it’s hard to give advice especially if you never been in college. You don’t know what college is like here in the United States.
SL: Right.
ML: You know it’s um, very simple. The way I learned--in engineering you just it's a lot of mathematic courses. And I was bombarded with all the other courses all the way to calculus and different courses. Anyway. The way I learned it in Spanish is different when I remember you know Robbie or Daniel, seeing them studying it was just completely different. I mean the results are the same, the solutions are the same, but the way they teach you is different. So as a parent how can you teach or help somebody study when the language and the technique is different?
SL: Yeah.
ML: You can’t. So there’s always more limitation for us to help our children in another, when you move to another language. Another country. You know, it’s hard. But it’s not impossible. If you have the dream to do it, you know you do it. Just like I, I didn’t give up. [laughs].
SL: Yeah [Laughter]. Yeah, awesome. Well that was the last question I have, but is there anything you want to add or contribute before we finish the interview?
ML [1:04:39]: Well, to any student at the university, just to take advantage of it. Everything you do there is going to reflect in the future. So make good decisions, treat others the way you want to be treated, and it doesn't--we all have different types of intelligences, and unfortunately in this, you know in this society that we have, this western culture that we have, we give a lot of weight to the intelligence of, you know, that has to do with grammar--well not grammar--but we measure what we can in just one part of intelligence, which is academic. But there's other intelligence that we need to develop. And we need to just accept each other and learn from each other to do good for you and for others. Always, you know, you learn and then you share. You learn and then you share what you learn. And put it in good use, not in bad use. You know?
SL: Yeah, right. Cool. Well thank you again for your time in doing the interview.
ML: Sure. I think I--we went in different directions but I’m glad that you guys are doing this project so I can help others to understand and help, you know, other students to see the perspective of people that they are not from, they were not born in this area, they came from other countries.
SL: Right.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[01:06:39]
Transcriber: Sophia Luna
Interview Date: March 31, 2023
Es: Transcripción
[00:00:00]
[START OF RECORDING]
Sophia Luna [00:00:04]: Okay. It's 9:26 in the morning on March thirty first--March 31, 2023, and I am on a Zoom call joined by Martin Luna in his home in Asheville, North Carolina. So, can you describe--.
Martin Luna: Hey.
SL: A little bit about where you're from and what your life was like there?
ML [00:00:26]: Well, I was born in La Barca, which is a little town in Jalisco, close to Guadalajara. But, but I, growing up in Mexico, I kind of grew up in different cities because my dad worked for a bank and he was promoted, or he was tired of working in a place, so he used to move around. So, I lived in a lot of different cities, you know, in Sonora, in Mexico City, Guadalajara, Puebla, Querétaro, Toluca. So all those towns, some of them big towns, big cities, other ones, small--well, they were all cities--made me appreciate my countryside, and also learn to, to move around. So I was very close to my family because we were like, I have three brothers, four brothers and one sister. So we did a lot of things together growing up. So I was, you know, very family oriented, very, you know, driven, you know. [00:01:51] And I was one of the first ones to go to a private middle school and high school and then private college. My other siblings, they just went to state college. So it made a difference, you know, for me. It was very academic oriented, so I was striving to do my best in elementary school, middle school, high school. My parents never pressed me to study. They never pressed us to, you know, they just kind of coached us to do our best. But they never pressed us as far as academically. So it was more like my inner side motivation to always, you know, do what I can and do my best and learn as much as I could.
SL: Yeah. So where were you living when you started those private schools that you mentioned in Mexico?
ML [00:02:51]: We moved from Guadalajara to Mexico City, so I had to drive, I had to travel on the bus by myself. I was, I don't know, I was, I was probably you know, I was coming out of elementary school. So my mom took me to a bus and then I had to travel all the way to Mexico City because my dad was already working in the bank in Mexico City. And I remember when I got to the bus station, I was like, I started walking, following the people, and it was like a sea of people that I didn't know, and being so petite, you know, so I was petite. I was, I was one of the first one or the second one. Out of sixty people I was the shortest one. Anyway, I was very intimidated by that. But then finally I saw a smiling face and I recognized my dad, and I was like, “Oh, [Laugher] thank God he's there.” But yeah, so and I remember going to that middle school, you know, there's of course there's no school buses in Mexico. So I had to take public transportation, and mom raising four children back then, it was, always to do everything on my own and walk, you know, a couple of blocks and take the public bus. And sometimes it was so crowded [laughs].
SL: Yeah.
ML: That I had to, I had to just grab--. [Audio briefly cuts out due to internet connectivity issues]. Until people move up and then I could, you know, crawl up to the to the safer area. Never, never a seat because there’s always crowded. [laughs]
SL: And so when you when you started at that different school, like did you notice did you notice that it was different from the public school that you had gone to before or that your siblings were going to at the time or?
ML [00:04:46]: Of course. Of course, yeah. So, it was like night and day. You know, we only had one teacher for the whole elementary school for the [inaudible]. And there was kind of a very, you know, unformal informal but here it was very structured. Have like five or six classes every day. And all of them, you know, always pushing for doing our best. And also in this particular school it was just men. So we were just men just children. You know, middle schoolers. There was no female students. And it was run by an organization that was, you know, Catholic. Hermanos Maristas. So Maurice Brotherhood. So it was very prestigious and very difficult to get in because a lot of people wanted to study there, because of the formation, you know, academic formation.
SL: Yeah. So then how did it come about between you and your parents or your family that you decided to go to that prestigious school? Did you decide or was it--.
ML: I lost you. [laughs].
SL: Your parents, or you made the decision--.
ML: I lost you. I didn't hear anything. I didn't hear anything repeat that question, please?
SL: Oh, so when you when you mentioned that you were the only one of your siblings to go to this private school. So was that your decision or was that a decision that your parents sought out for you?
ML: Okay. I only heard my decision or my parents' decision. We having bad communication right now, so I only heard that. So, no, it was kind of. [00:06:47] My mom was kind of looking around, where should I go? And of course, he had relatives that they were in that organization, you know, in that brotherhood. So she kind of reached out to them to see if I could get in. But actually it was more academically their decision. That it was better. And of course, it was going to be, there was a cost, there was a tuition, of course. So they decided it was better for my education.
SL: Okay. And so then that was middle and high school. And so then moving, fast forwarding a bit, can you describe what your experience was like after high school and choosing to pursue higher education, whether that be in Mexico or whether when you decided to or if you decided to move to the United States?
ML: Okay. So in that particular school I met a lot of people, made friends and so forth. Some of them had the opportunity to travel to the United States. So the culture back then, for me, it was like I like a lot of American music and, you know, see TV programming and so forth; Of course dubbed in Spanish. But I was also taking English classes, you know, since middle school. I think it was more high school. In high school, I started taking English classes. So that opened up a little bit more of a desire to come to the United States in high school and actually I had a friend that was able to travel and do an exchange student. And then when he came back, he was like us, you know, really, really talking really. It was a great experience for him. So that kind of put the seed of me trying to do that. And I tried to. My dad, my dad at some point sent me to the border because he had an uncle, and I because I had really good grades that was my reward. He couldn't send me to; He didn’t know anybody to send me, you know, to the United States, but he knew somebody at the border. So I ended up going to a, you know, summer course of English, but it was in the Mexican side. So it made a big difference because you knew that you were like learning the structure, the grammar. But we were not practicing it because we were in Mexico. [laughs]. So it was an experience. It was really hot. So I was at right at the border of Matamoros. [00:09:39] But anyway, my transition to college was very interesting because I wanted to move to. I never liked Mexico City. I mean, I was safe and, you know, adapted, but I didn't like the fact that there was very little sun, very dark, a lot of traffic, some sort of crime. Anyway, because we traveled so many places there were other cities that were beautiful and that felt really good. So my dad got another job in Puebla and he was moving the whole family to Puebla. Two of my brothers were already in college, so they couldn't move. So they, they, they were going to stay in Mexico City. I wanted to move to Guadalajara, but my parents said no. Because they couldn't afford to split the family in three ways. So I had to follow suit. But there was like five or six universities in Puebla. And I chose the best and the most expensive one.
SL: [Laughter].
ML: And that kind of my parents, they did the effort to send me to the Universidad de las Americas Puebla, which is between Puebla and Cholula, and it's a very prestigious university. It's actually back then was the only one, or one of the few ones recognized by the Southern Association of the Board of Colleges in the United States. So that was a major thing back then. But anyway, I was not thinking about moving to the United States at all. I was just going over there to learn and I chose an engineering degree, which was a field that very few people; It was kind of a new career. It was food engineering. Like chemical engineering specializing in food. And I excelled there. I was one of the few students that finished the course. We started like thirty, thirty-seven students. And in Mexico to study to get a degree in college it's always five years.
SL: Right.
ML: Not four. So, so, so it was five years. And back then out of thirty-seven students from my generation, there were three that we finished. And also there were like three others that we catch [caught] up that they were behind. So we were like six or seven. I graduated in 1985.
SL: Okay.
ML: And at that time I also took English courses and I met all American people that were studying over there. So I had some connections, you know, with people from the United States. Of course, I was immersed in the city, so I had to take two buses to go to the college, you know, from where I live to go to the center of the city and then take another bus to go to Cholula. And anyway, I met a lot of people, made a lot of friends. And I was actually, like, my fourth year, I got into-- I was the president of my career in food engineering. And in that I met some people, some presidents of other areas. You know, there was like, I don't know, like sixteen different fields, careers. So we used to get together and do things, you know, to promote the university or for the good of everybody. [00:13:26] And I met a guy who told me about this excellent program that he went to and basically that it was in Black Mountain, North Carolina. And that basically if you were accepted they will give you a visa, a work study visa, and give you room and board and you could work there during the summer time. And so that was that became a dream for me to go once he told me about it.
SL: Yeah.
ML: That kind of started changing my life a little bit [laughs].
SL: Right. So, can you describe a little bit the process of what applying for this program in Black Mountain was like and how long that took, or just your general, like, experience applying for that program?
ML: Well, it was kind of difficult to get in because when he told me about it and I applied, he told me like in in April. In April, something like that, that's when I learned about this. So I applied immediately. And of course they sent me a letter saying they rejected me because they said it's already, you know, we already have the staff. You know, the American people plan ahead. So it was not like, hey, you can come now [laughs].
SL: Right [laughs].
ML: Last minute, last minute. But back then, I didn't know. I didn't know. I just started the process and I was intimidated because I had to fill out the form in English and I didn't know who to ask. So I did it on my own. My parents never speak English, so, um, and I didn't. I was kind of a solo person. I never asked for advice or I didn't know who to ask, you know, basically. But anyway, I was rejected. And then what I did is I went ahead and reapplied in November and I sent you know, they asked me for three reference letters. So I got my letters, I got everything. And then I got accepted. And then I got the letter. It was one of my happiest moments in my life because I knew that it was going to be something that I really wanted to try not knowing how it was going to be. But I just wanted to try, and to have that experience of being in another country.
ML: My parents, you know, tried to send me. But it was very expensive, really. So, this was like a big accomplishment for me. And that happened right after I graduated from college, you know. My dad did a big celebration. We got a lot of family gathering to celebrate my accomplishment. And then a few days later, I had to take a bus and come to the United States. Since I have like certain deadline to arrive, I was supposed to take a bus right after my graduation. But it was the party and we had so many family at home that one of my uncles said: “Well, don't worry about going on bus. I'll fly you in.”
SL: Oh, okay.
ML: So he was hoping to fly me all the way to here. But when he started checking on the prices and everything, he realized how expensive it was.
SL: [Laughter]
ML: To fly from Puebla or from Mexico City to Asheville. He went ahead and just flew me to Matamoros.
SL: Okay.
ML: And then from there I took the bus, which was fine. It was fine with me because I was going to do the whole, whole tour in a bus. I already had my ticket anyway. And back then it was like for fifty dollars, you could buy a ticket and you could go anywhere in the United States for, for, you know, seven days. You could travel all over the place with fifty dollars during seven days.
SL: Interesting. Okay. Can you remember what it was like when you first arrived or what your first impressions were of Black Mountain, and just what your general experience was, I guess in the first weeks and months of you living there and what you were doing in the program, too.
ML: [00:17:35] Sure. Well, I got really welcomed. I was very welcomed. They, you know, they sent somebody to pick me up in a band. Well, arriving, of course, traveling in a bus, I was like looking at a lot of terrains and a lot of time to think about different things. But I remember, you know, from seeing different sceneries. And then once we started getting to Hendersonville, I started seeing a lot of green and a lot of green. Never seen so much green during the summertime. You know, like everywhere. So I was very, very impressed with the beauty of the mountains and the beauty of the forest. So when this guy picked me up, took me over there, I was kind of late because I kind of took a detour. I got like two days late. I didn't got to the orientation. I got there like two days after because I took a detour to go to Orlando and meet some family member and then came back. I was just because I have that advantage of the--. [laughs].
SL: [Laughter]
ML: You could travel right for free.
SL: Right. [laughs]
ML: Well, as long as wherever you want to go. I went to Orlando, but I didn't visit anything. I was just. It was just wasting time, really, because I didn't do anything [laughs].
SL: [Laughter]
ML: But anyway. I was really welcome. Everybody was friendly. Everybody was very, you know, young. Most of the people were younger than me, but they were very, very friendly. Because most of the staff was college. So they were in college, or some of them they were in Master’s, but we were kind of similar age. And the center was very organized. And, you know, to make the experience even better. And some of the jobs were kind of tedious. They rotate every three weeks. So every three weeks you change. Two or three weeks, you change to a different department. So making it fun. And of course, every time you--[Audio briefly cuts out due to internet connectivity issues].
SL: You were mentioning how at the place you worked, they changed every three weeks to keep things interesting for the people working there.
ML: Yes. Yes, and so I felt very welcome. This YMCA is one of the largest facilities in the southern area, the southern region. It is owned by ten different states around North Carolina. It’s a conference center. So they bring people or different groups through the week or for the weekend to have a conference. So some of them were small, like two hundred people, other ones were like fifteen hundred people. So we were about maybe, let’s see, I’m trying to remember. We were twenty men and maybe thirty or forty women plus the management people. And we were, you know, in different places on the campus. It’s a huge campus. So every week we had to change everything.
SL: Right.
ML: At the conference they were coming to learn a lot of different things so we had to set the whole campus to their needs. And then, so they’ve been doing this since 1908. You know the center was founded back then. So through the years it's been very well organized, there's a lot of brotherhood, there's a lot of history and it's very well organized. So when I came I was very impressed that everything was so organized and we had fun and also played and made it very interesting. So, through the whole two and a half month experience every weekend we had themed parties. New year’s, Christmas in July, international night, a talent show, different things--Hawaiian party--different activities that kept us engaged and kept us having fun, and made the work kind of easy.
SL: Yeah.
ML: And there were always opportunities. So I took one opportunity myself and I noticed that the people that work less were the lifeguards [laughs].
SL: [Laughter].
ML: So I find out how I can become a lifeguard [laughs].
SL: [Laughter].
ML: So I took the class, and I got my certificate of lifeguard. So I was able to work, you know, and that was the most fun thing to do because you just clean, give a little bit of maintenance to the pool, and just sit down and see people and enjoy the sun [laughs].
SL: [Laughs]. Right.
ML: And get paid without having to clean or having to do a lot of work [laughs].
SL: That's funny. So being, you mentioned that you moved, you started this program right after finishing college and your engineering degree. So when you were living in Black Mountain and in North Carolina were you aware of any, you know, educational opportunities that interested you? Or were you wanting to continue your education in the United States? What was your sense of the educational sphere of North Carolina?
ML [00:23:47]: Well, for me, back then my priority was to feel fluent in the language. And I knew that my English was very very limited. I remember when I put in my application that I speak 80 percent of English. I knew 80 percent. But I realized I didn’t know. I mean I knew the grammar and the structure but I didn’t know how to speak. You know. So to me that was kind of an obstacle, a big obstacle. So I did want to learn the language. My first--I knew that the program was going to finish so I tried to figure out how to stay more. And I knew that the assembly was the YMCA Blue Ridge Assembly, so the assembly was hiring people to stay a little bit longer. And I wanted to stay. And I expressed my interest of staying, but they already hired other people that they had in mind. So I didn’t, I was not accepted. But when I talked to one of the executes about my desire to stay he kind of hooked me up with another executive from another town and said “Hey, this guy wants to stay as an exchange student.” You know, so he offered me, the gentleman offered me an opportunity to live in his home so I could continue with this experience and continue with learning the language. So I lived like two months with them in their home. And then when my visa expired I had to go back to Mexico.
SL: Right.
ML: And that was something that I had to do it on my own again. Nobody told me “Hey, you can stay.” I said “Well my visa will expire at the end of October, so I have to go back to my family.” And I did. So when I went back to Mexico, in my mind, I was like “Oh, that was a great experience, I feel better about the language, but I want to work on my field.” So I went to the town that I wanted to live, which was Guadalajara, and started looking for all the industries to find work and just start interviewing by myself. Talking to people saying “Hey, I just graduated from the university, I can help you.” I started offering my services. Because most people, they didn't know what food engineering could do in their industry. Remember I kind of went to like six or sevent interviews that I introduced myself to see if they were hiring and that I was available.
SL: Right. Right. So, did anything--.
ML: And then--.
SL: Go ahead.
ML: And then what happened was I went back to my parents to celebrate Christmas and New Year’s, and when I was back in Puebla, because I spent maybe a month exploring job opportunities in Mexico. A month, a month and a half and I was staying with relatives. Then I went to Puebla to see my parents, finally. [00:27:14] When I was there I got a phone call that changed my whole life. Because one of the executives called me and said “Hey, Martin, we really enjoyed your work ethic and we really would like for you to come back next year, would you like to do that?” And since I had a wonderful experience I said “Yes, of course!” So that phone call, without consulting anybody, I was like “Wow! That's great! I can go back!” Changed my whole life because then I was not pursue--I got distracted and was not pursuing my professional career. I kind of put that on the side and said “Well, I just need to work part time, you know, in another area or do something while I wait until I go back to United States.”
SL: Okay.
ML: So that’s what I did. I got a temporary job at the beach and I was using my English as I was working in a Japanese restaurant [laughs]. In a Japanese restaurant I was hired there. And I worked there for a while but it was hard to be on my own, to be honest. I was not used to being on my own, living by myself and making decisions by myself because we were always in a group. So YMCA was great because I had a brotherhood, a family, and I didn't have to worry about cleaning, cooking, or basic things. You know, so it was learning. But when I was in this beach, I was staying with some people first, but then, you know, they didn’t treat you as nice as the United States [laughs].
SL: Right.
ML: So it was a lot of decisions of: “How I'm going to get to my job? Where am I going to be living? Where am I going to stay?” And the accommodations they gave me were not the greatest ones. But anyway, I didn’t last too long there. When I got tired and just flew to Mexico City and went back to my parents and just waited until my opportunity to go back to the United States came.
SL: Right. And so what was your second experience like in the United States, and what did you do after the Blue Ridge Assembly?
ML: Sure. So it was even better, started meeting people again and then said “Well, I would like to stay here longer. How can I stay longer?” And it was three choices I had: One was, a friend from Nigeria says “Well you can join the army, they can definitely probably let you stay.” The other one was going back to college, and the third one was, you know, well if you get married you could probably stay also.
SL: Right.
ML [00:30:23]: But in my mind, it was more like “Well why don't I try to go back to college and try to get a Masters?” I knew several people from the University of Americas who had done that in different cities. In different countries. Some of them went to Germany, other ones went to Spain, and some to the United States. I knew it was going to be costly so I started to explore that. So I took some trips, I went to [pause] one lady lived in Raleigh so we went to the, I visited the university of, State University in North Carolina. And I didn’t know anything about Clemson, but there was some people from Blue Ridge Assembly that they were the directors of the YMCA in Clemson, and one of them offered me, opened up some opportunities there. So I kind of liked that, and started talking to the directors in Clemson and they said “Yeah, you can come here and help you.” In other words, there were some doors that started to open for me.
SL: Right
ML: So, I went and applied to Clemson. I got a place to stay, and they let me stay there. I paid for my room, for my board. For my food [laughs].
SL: Right
ML: The room was free, my food I paid for it. And then it was an opportunity to decide what I was going to do. And I visited the food science department. And because they knew I had the degree already in that field, they gave me a job.
SL: Right.
ML: So, the things were happening for me. But legally, I was there physically but as far as--how do you say--the credits, getting the credits, I was not admitted officially. I was kind of exploring what I was going to do, and I realized I needed to take more English classes. Because I felt that my English was really bad. The science I already knew, in Spanish.
SL: Right.
ML: And in English. But I was more interested in: What can I do with my field? How can I take what I know to use it in Mexico? And I realized that first I needed to improve my English, which was a big task for me.
SL: Right.
ML: You know, it was difficult. It was difficult because, again, I was by myself but I needed to master that so I could function. Like I am functioning right now.
SL: Right, right. So you hinted a little bit at it, but how did you feel like your degree from the University of the Americas…How did you feel like it translated to the United States and to Clemson specifically? In your opinion?
ML [00:33:50]: Well, it was a good opportunity for me to be there because people were very open, people respect me, you know, the doctors that I talked to. There was Dr. Moore, who was the permanent doctor in food industry and food science. He was kind of my mentor. He took me in, he gave me opportunity to work in the laboratory and start organizing everything there. And pretty much, I was probably, he wanted me to work on research but he knew that I needed time to adjust.
SL: Right.
ML: So, again, the sky was the limit there. We went to a lot of, well, you know being part of the food science group I met several students from other countries. I remember there was an assistant to Dr. Moore who was working on his PhD too, or Masters, that he kind of took me under his wing and he was helping me to fill out the forms which I was very intimidated. And helped me to get into the program, and also, um, so there was a lot of people very welcome. They went through my shoes, came before me, and they were studying and we went to several food events. I remember going to Atlanta to meet Dr. Labuza. Dr. Labuza was very famous for his research in water activity, you know, something that was, back then, really one of the fields that I remember. There are, I mean, so many fields in food industry. But anyway, I was meeting famous people that, before, it was just on a paper.
SL: Right.
ML: That I read about their articles on paper or on books, and I was very, you know, impressed meeting those people in person. And talk to them. Anyway, so everything was going well, and I thought it was a good opportunity for me. [00:36:17] But I had two tragedies that changed my life [laughs]. One, and it was I don’t know, just destiny. But basically, I needed to take two tests for being the next semester enrolled officially. One was the TOEFL. You know, the test for English as a second language proficiency. It’s a proficiency test to tell the university that if you can do it. That your English is good. And the other one is the GRE, I think. Graduate Record Examinate. The GRE. Which was a little bit more tougher that all the American people needed to take. The first one is just for foreign students. The second one was for all, you know, anybody that wanted to do a graduate study. So, the first one you know, unfortunately it was not offered on campus. It was in another city which was Greenville. So I needed to travel over there. And I didn’t know, you know it was on a Saturday morning. So talking to my people that I knew, there was another Chinese student that was going to take it. And I learned through my supervisor that says “This person needs to take it.” So I talked to him and I asked him if he could take me to the place, to Greenville, and he said “Yes, I’ll take you.” And then we set up a place and a time to meet. And then the second one was going to be offered there in the college, so I was already enrolled to take it there.
So I think it was like the end of October, or around October. It was around October when I took the test, I was supposed to meet this Chinese student to take the test. And I remember I got up in the morning early, and it was raining, it was pouring rain and everything. And I was out there in the corner where we were supposed to meet, and it was dark, and I was there for almost forty-five minutes and he didn’t show up. And I stayed there and stayed there and I never saw it, he never came back to pick me up. He probably did, but because of the language barrier maybe he didn’t know where I was and maybe he--I don't know. I don’t know what happened but he never showed up. And I was supposed to be there at 9, but by 8:30 I started crying and crying because, you know, that was very important for me to be in there. So I went to see other friends, and they didn’t have cars, so they couldn’t do anything. And they said “Don’t worry about it, don't worry about it,” but I felt, like, defeated because I wasn’t going to get into the next semester enrollment. And so, from then I started to feel, you know, and I didn't know back then, but I started to feel depressed because I didn’t know what to do. When I took the second test, I was encouraging to do it but when I took it I also felt defeated because it was really really difficult [laughs].
SL: [Laughs] Yeah, the GRE is…
ML [00:39:46]: It was very difficult, and I felt like a failure. Like “I failed, so what am I going to do? How am I going to get into the official Master’s degree?” And all this is the pressure that I knew it was costing me money, and I knew that my parents could not afford to send me to college, so kind of, I got into a depression stage.
SL: Yeah.
ML: I knew Christine, and Christine wanted to help me out and she always wanted to say “Well, you know maybe college is not for you. Maybe you can come to Asheville, come back to Asheville, and you can find a job here in Asheville and do something else.” And I felt like yes, that would be an option, but I really wanted to--I was kind of feeling like the opportunity to study and be in college for, was going to be much better. So I got into a depression. And back then I didn’t, never had depression before, nobody knew about it in my family. I got really depressed so I went back to Mexico defeated.
ML: And when I got back to Mexico, unfortunately my parents were transitioning from one, from Puebla to Guadalajara and the situation, the dynamics were not really good. They were renting a small place that was too small for the family, so it was very, it added more stress. In a good note, by then there was like, already, job opportunities for me and I got into a job as a food engineer and I worked in the Sabrita plant. But I was comparing that job with what I lived here in the United States and the freedom and what I was doing, it was like night and day. Even though I had a job there now I was not happy. My heart was in United States, my heart was in this area of North Carolina, And I wanted to come back. So I decided to come back one more time, so I didn’t gave up. [laughs].
SL: [Laughter] Yeah, right! So what was that like? Was that the last time you came, when you decided you know like you said not to give up, or how did that come about and what happened after that?
ML: Well, you know, through the whole time when I was in Clemson I was dating Christine, and she used to come visit me on weekends or every other weekend when she could. So we, you know, I kind of started being interested in her because she was always there for me, you know. Actually she took me from The Assembly to Clemson, and then when she knew where I was then she was coming every other week or every week. We had fun events, I remember one time we, you know, both being Catholics, the priest from the parish where I was staying in Clemson, he was doing outreach to migrant workers in another place called Walhalla. So I told him that I played the guitar, and he says: “Well why don’t you come over to celebrate mass on the field?” And I did the first time, and I realized that I needed music so the next time I brought my guitar and make it more fun. And Christine went one time with me to those outreach, going to visit the migrants and bringing the word of God on their own homes. You know, they were living in trailers in the middle of the mobile home park we celebrate mass and I was playing the guitar. So that was really really nice.
SL: Yeah
ML: Anyways, um, she was, you know, always offering me “Come back to my home.” So we continued to write letters when I was in Mexico defeated. So she said “Come back here, you can find a job, we can. There’s opportunities here.” So she was always having faith in me that my dream could come true.
SL: Yeah.
ML [00:44:35]: So I came back the third time and I actually came back with another friend. And then we wanted to plan our wedding but, kind of, things moved quickly and we got married.
SL: Right.
ML: [Laughter].
SL: And what year was it when--what year was it that you came back the third time, and then were married?
ML: Eighty-seven. 1987.
SL: Okay.
ML: 1987.
SL: And just for the sake of anyone listening to this interview in the future, can you describe who Christine is and how you met her for the first time?
ML: [Laughter]
SL: Just for context.
ML: Well Christine is my wife, my companion for thirty-five years. So she’s my wife. We met in 1986 in my second summer here. Not--she didn’t work in our field, it just happened. It was like, God put us together, to be honest, you know? I’m a very strong believer, and back in Mexico I always was praying for God for the right person to meet. And basically, through all this events that happened in my life, the way we met it was kind of a coincidence. Because she never went--I think that was the only time she went from Weaverville to Black Mountain, where I was. But I was working at the YMCA but we met in a local bar back then it was called the Town Pump… Town Pump? And we went there with my friends, from Mexico, on a night that they said “Hey let's go down to Black Mountain.” So I did. It was a group of five people, you know, boys and girls. And she came too, out of coincidence, because she didn’t planned to be there at all but one of her friends went and got her out of her job to go--she didn’t want to go by herself because her boyfriend, this girl’s boyfriend--her name is Lisa--and Lisa’s boyfriend was playing in a band, and he was playing in this particular place on that night. So she went and talked to the boss and said “Hey, can you let her come tonight?” And the boss did, Mr. Boyd, I remember his name, Mr. Boyd did let her out earlier. So they went there, and I was there with my friends, and then I remember my friend Paco said “Hey, there’s a lady outside that speaks Spanish. There’s two ladies out there that speak Spanish, let’s go meet them.” So I went outside, and actually Lisa, it was, she didn’t speak Spanish. She’s an American. [laughs].
SL: [Laughter]
ML: And Lisa, I mean Christine, was both English and Spanish. So we started talking in Spanish and so forth. So we connected and we invited them to come back the next day for another event at The Assembly. Which was the talent show, which was open to anybody. And so we were hoping that both of them were going to come but in the end Christine just showed up. And from then, we kind of started developing a relationship.
SL: Right.
ML: And I remember vividly one time when I called her, she said “Hey”--her mom answered the phone--she said “Hey, would you like to come visit us?” and she say, “You know, we’d like you to come have dinner with us because we’re going to have steak.” and I said “Yes!” And you know the ironic thing is that that night we were going to have steak, too, at The Assembly.
SL: Oh!
ML: That night, but I said yes because I wanted to be out of The Assembly, I wanted to meet other people. So, I went and met her family, and there were some relatives visiting and so forth. But anyway, in the end it just happened that the food was delicious. Country food, it was potatoes and green beans and, and flavors that I never had. Well I tasted them at The Assembly but it was homemade, not bulk [laughs].
SL: [Laughter]. Yeah, that makes sense.
ML: Not bulk recipes.
SL: That difference matters, right.
ML: So I was like “Wow!” And I said to Christine's mom, “Hey, wow you’re a great cook, congratulations!” By the way, she’s from Colombia, and so I felt like I was at home. And she said, “No, no I didn't do the cooking. Christine did.” And I was like “Wow! Really?” [laughs].
SL: [Laughter]
ML: And I was really surprised because being so young--I think back then I was twenty-two, she was nineteen--I was like “Wow!”
SL: Yeah.
ML: “Congratulations, you really know how to cook.” Because it was a great meal. A great meal. So all those little things started to, you know, be in my mind. That we connected and that we, you know, eventually got married.
SL: Right, yeah. So, fast forwarding, or kind of switching like fast forwarding or looking to wrap up. After your third time coming to the states, like you describe and kind of coming back from that, as you put it: Trying one more time and not giving up and getting married to Christine--which is all well over I guess twenty years ago--when you think about your life now, I guess how do you view education, or educational experiences that maybe even some of your kids have had, how do you view them in light of the ones you had both in Mexico and the United States?
ML: Well, um, okay so could you rephrase that question?
SL: Yeah. So, when you think about education now like in 2023 in the United States, as you've been living here several years--several decades--how do you think education compares now than it did in the past, when you were part of education and part of the education system?
ML [00:51:28]: Sure. Well, through technology and through the new way of opportunities that students have, the world is shrinking quite a bit. There is more opportunities for new students, definitely. I mean I realize that people that really like school or they like to do something different, they kind of cling to their friends--in other words, there's a dynamic between teachers and students.
ML: You know, there’s a lot of students who are forced to go to school. There’s other students that love to go to school. And teachers kind of guide those students, well try to guide everybody, to do their best but not everybody has that call and not everybody is smart academically. [Clears throat]. The main thing here that I see is that the people that have, from experience, sometimes people have the opportunity to go to college and they have these scholarships and they want to succeed in college, but when they get there they are shocked because it’s not like a public school. Because they know they have to write important papers and they don’t know how to. I would not know how to, you know, if I had to write a paper when I was talking, you know, back thirty years ago. It's stressful. So not all the schools, not all the students have the same tools to succeed. Especially in public schools. So it’s important to take your education seriously, and unfortunately a lot of students, they don't. They take it for granted, they just want to use space but they aren’t looking about the future. In college, I know that if you are around people that want to help you can succeed easily. Like I felt--Even though my language was limited--I felt that, again, international students that they were in the same boat that I was, they were encouraging me to succeed. And I remember that. The problem is sometimes--I’m just going to give you an example. I knew of a lady that her son wanted to be a doctor. And she got a full ride to go to UNC Chapel Hill. And he went there very excited about it, and within a semester he came back defeated. And I don’t know all the details, but he came back with depression. And he felt that he was not welcome. He felt that he did not know where to go. And that’s what happens when you don’t have a core group of friends, or meet friends that can help you, you know, try it and know that you can do it. That happens quite a bit and quite more often, you know, that's why we see all these shootings. Those people are either mad or they’re depressed or they’re not welcome, and those things that are happening here in the United States it's a shame. Because, you know, not even in Mexico I remember somebody shooting a student, you know a student shooting their peers. Because there’s always some sort of--I mean there's frivolity and everything--but the worst that could happen is just, you know, fighting themselves. Like men. [laughs].
SL: Right.
ML: But not with a gun, not with a gun. But anyway. I don’t know if I'm answering your question but that’s what I see. [00:56:06] Right now, the opportunities that you can travel abroad and go learn from other places, come back and still get credits, that’s unbelievable. Unbelievable. I wish I had that opportunity when I was in college because that’s what I wanted to do. To come in a safe environment and come back to my home, but I didn’t know how. But now that people, and that’s what, we’ve been encouraging to do that to Jessica, to Robbie, to you, to go to another country and meet other people and come back and have more life experience that will open up the doors. Definitely coming here opened up this door for me, to work and you know through trial and effort find the right job for me. In my case, we haven't talked about that part yet, but in my case even though I have a food engineering degree and I wanted to use it for good, the language barrier limited it in the beginning. And then I saw a need here--eventually after trying different jobs--I did work in a plant here locally in a food beverage plant locally, but I felt like I was more in a prison after a while because it was just confined in an environment that was very routine [laughs].
SL: Yeah, that makes sense.
ML: It wasn't until I got into real estate that it’s very challenging career. Very fulfilling because you’re helping people get their homes, helping them with the most important decision they can make financially. You know the most biggest financial decision that they can make. But there's so many opportunities for people here for homeownership. So I've been helping the Hispanics to get their home and have some sort of stability. And open up opportunities for them.
SL: Yeah.
ML: And of course in real estate, as a realtor, completely the rules change, the contracts change everything change, so--the technology has changed, to sell real estate--so it’s very challenging. There’s not a routine, you know, that I can’t handle the routine.
SL: That makes sense.
ML: I need variety, I need contact with people. So that’s why I chose that career eventually, you know, because I saw that there was a big need for people to buy homes. And the way it came to me this opportunity was because first I started selling satellite dishes, and they didn't own their houses. And when I got into real estate I could sell them both the land and the satellite. And I did that for a while, you know for a couple of years or so. But now it’s not necessary. I have clients that they are investors now, clients that are first-time home buyers, clients that they need to sell their home because they have other transitions in their lives. But yeah, the real estate has been able to open up doors for other people and me too because I’ve met some wonderful realtors, wonderful people, and wonderful, you know all different types of people that are moving to Asheville. New friends and old friends. And it’s a great career, a great career for me.
SL: Yeah.
ML: In this case, it's going to allow me to retire soon. Hopefully.
SL: Yeah! [laughs] So I just have one last question, and it’s do you think that the experience-- the challenges you faced when you were at Clemson University and things like that and places like that, do you think the challenges you faced then are similar, or different, or at all changed from the ones that people or students who are originally born in another country, like Mexico or Central America--or anywhere in Latin America--do you think that the challenges you had are different from the ones they have today?
ML [1:01:00]: Well I think they are--there’s always going to be great challenges for everybody. There’s always going to be, you know anytime you change your environment to a new environment there’s always going to be challenges. It’s what you do about it, how do you react to it? That’s why you have to have a good core, core friends or family that can help you when you’re feeling down. I always encourage, you know being a man of faith, I always encourage somebody who goes to a university to be surrounded by, you know, by students that they go to church and they have the same faith. Because they are going to help you to succeed. You can't succeed by yourself, never. Never. You always need other people. Good people that can help you succeed, and could be a good teacher, good professor, good, older student. I think that’s very important not to stereotype that, you know, a lot of times you feel like “Okay I’m in this level, I can only relate to these people because they’re on the same level.” There’s always learning experience from older people and from younger people, the thing is that are we open to listening to those, to their experience?
SL: Yeah.
ML: So you don’t fail. Like I’m thinking about this kid that he didn't make it when he had all these opportunities, it’s because he didn’t have that core, you know, group of friends, or the family who was not able to listen to his needs, and figure out. And it's hard to give--as an immigrant it’s hard to give advice especially if you never been in college. You don’t know what college is like here in the United States.
SL: Right.
ML: You know it’s um, very simple. The way I learned--in engineering you just it's a lot of mathematic courses. And I was bombarded with all the other courses all the way to calculus and different courses. Anyway. The way I learned it in Spanish is different when I remember you know Robbie or Daniel, seeing them studying it was just completely different. I mean the results are the same, the solutions are the same, but the way they teach you is different. So as a parent how can you teach or help somebody study when the language and the technique is different?
SL: Yeah.
ML: You can’t. So there’s always more limitation for us to help our children in another, when you move to another language. Another country. You know, it’s hard. But it’s not impossible. If you have the dream to do it, you know you do it. Just like I, I didn’t give up. [laughs].
SL: Yeah [Laughter]. Yeah, awesome. Well that was the last question I have, but is there anything you want to add or contribute before we finish the interview?
ML [1:04:39]: Well, to any student at the university, just to take advantage of it. Everything you do there is going to reflect in the future. So make good decisions, treat others the way you want to be treated, and it doesn't--we all have different types of intelligences, and unfortunately in this, you know in this society that we have, this western culture that we have, we give a lot of weight to the intelligence of, you know, that has to do with grammar--well not grammar--but we measure what we can in just one part of intelligence, which is academic. But there's other intelligence that we need to develop. And we need to just accept each other and learn from each other to do good for you and for others. Always, you know, you learn and then you share. You learn and then you share what you learn. And put it in good use, not in bad use. You know?
SL: Yeah, right. Cool. Well thank you again for your time in doing the interview.
ML: Sure. I think I--we went in different directions but I’m glad that you guys are doing this project so I can help others to understand and help, you know, other students to see the perspective of people that they are not from, they were not born in this area, they came from other countries.
SL: Right.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[01:06:39]
Transcriber: Sophia Luna
Interview Date: March 31, 2023
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-1015 -- Luna, Martin.
Description
An account of the resource
North Carolina resident Martin Luna recounts his experience moving to the United States from Jalisco, Mexico in 1985 as a recently-graduated food engineering student. Luna arrived to work at the Blue Ridge Assembly in Black Mountain, North Carolina over the summer as an international student worker. Throughout the interview he describes the importance of several interpersonal relationships that shaped his work experience and that created the opportunity for him to attempt to pursue graduate school at Clemson University. He references the language barrier as a recurring challenge in his U.S. education. He also describes the role mental health had in his experiences in the U.S. Luna reflects on his experiences in both Mexico and the U.S.’s education systems, and closes the interview describing the kinds of challenges current Latin American immigrant students face within education systems and how they compare to the ones he experienced.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-03-31
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29328">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
R1015_Audio.mp3
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/ecc34e9852c89e0a4f5799fbfbbe9968.mp3
cb38e454fef7815c51bf8e19c59c329f
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/a51a166435f005098b15ee40c6fb4cbb.pdf
64f709f76565e502b7ee56d7f996f318
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-1008
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
Fecha
2023-05-30
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Robalino, Katelyn.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Civil servants
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1993
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Flushing -- Queens -- New York
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Chapel Hill -- Durham County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
N/A
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Velásquez, Daniel.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Katelyn Robalino is a Community Connections Coordinator for the Affordable Housing and Community Connections Department at the Town of Chapel Hill. She was first interviewed by New Roots in 2013 when she was a sophomore at UNC-Chapel Hill; this 2023 interview is an update on her journey, the various professional roles she has held, and lessons learned along the way. Soon after graduation, she worked as a Bilingual Teaching Assistant at a Montessori school in Charlotte and subsequently moved to Louisville, KY, where she held two AmeriCorps VISTA appointments and was a staff member for local nonprofits focused on community education and advocacy. Katelyn shares reflections on many topics throughout her interview, including imposter syndrome and other challenges she has faced, her sense of purpose and justice, and her ideas about leadership and the sharing of power. Lastly, she emphasizes the value of lived experience as a professional asset, which she believes has helped her in her current role at the Town of Chapel Hill.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Katelyn Jessenia Robalino by Daniel Velásquez, 30 May 2023, R-1008, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29340
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Activism; Community and social services and programs; Education; Family; Labor and employment
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Funcionarios públicos
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Katelyn Robalino es Coordinadora de Conexiones Comunitarias del Departamento de Vivienda Asequible y Conexiones Comunitarias de la ciudad de Chapel Hill. Nuevas Raíces la entrevistó por primera vez en el 2013, cuando era estudiante de segundo año en UNC-Chapel Hill; esta entrevista del 2023 es una puesta al día de su trayectoria, las diversas funciones profesionales que ha desempeñado y las lecciones aprendidas a lo largo del camino. Poco después de graduarse, trabajó como Asistente de Enseñanza Bilingüe en una escuela Montessori en Charlotte y posteriormente se mudó a Louisville, KY, donde ocupó dos puestos de AmeriCorps VISTA y fue empleada de organizaciones locales sin fines de lucro centradas en la educación y la abogacía comunitaria. A lo largo de la entrevista, Katelyn reflexiona sobre muchos temas, como el síndrome del impostor y otros retos a los que se ha enfrentado, su sentido de la justicia y su propósito, y sus ideas sobre el liderazgo y el reparto del poder. Por último, hace hincapié en el valor de la experiencia vivida como ventaja profesional, lo que considera le ha ayudado en su puesto actual en la ciudad de Chapel Hill.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Katelyn Jessenia Robalino por Daniel Velásquez, 30 May 2023, R-1008, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Activismo; Educación; Familia; Programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios; Trabajo y empleo
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Daniel Velásquez: Okay, today is the 30th of May of 2023. I am Daniel Velásquez. I am in the Global Education Center at the UNC-Chapel Hill campus. I'm here with Katelyn Robalino, a Community Connections Coordinator for the Affordable Housing and Community Connections Department at the Town of Chapel Hill. Katelyn, thank you so much for sitting down with me.
Katelyn Robalino: Yeah.
DV: And updating us on what you've been up to. Katelyn has an interview with us already archived on the New Roots website, but she has journeyed past that interview and is here to update us on what she's been up to. So, thank you for being with us.
KR: Yeah, definitely, it feels like so long ago now. It was 10 years ago.
DV: Wow. Okay, well can you update us on the last years of college and the time immediately after? I think that that was the time of your first interview. You were in, I think, a sophomore or junior in college?
KR: I think I was a sophomore. Yeah, I must have been because it was in the spring of 2013, so I was in in my second semester of my sophomore year. I wouldn't necessarily say that I ended up doing what I thought I was going to do. I had kind of some vague interests in education because my work study when I was an undergrad was at the Franklin Porter Graham Child Development Center, which actually doesn't exist. So, my work study job was a teaching assistant for two years. So, my first two years of undergrad I worked there and I really loved it. And that was the first time that I considered I really like working with children and being part of that environment and watching them develop and assisting in that process. And I was like, I wonder if I could be a teacher, but at the time I was so locked into my major that I kind of was like, I don't think I can necessarily do that.
DV: Can you remind us, what was your major?
KR: I was a studio art and Italian double major, so two different, really unrelated ones. And at the time I was interested in either art education or art therapy, so I was already thinking about a more professionalized degree, getting a master's eventually, but I wasn't quite sure exactly what that would look like. So, I did art and Italian not really with a specific purpose other than those were subjects that I was interested in. And then I, you know, after graduation, I had applied for a couple of different education-related stuff. I did apply for Teach for America, I got to the final round, didn't get in, was really devastated by that. Did some teaching, residency applications, again got through a few rounds, but really just panicked and was like, I don't know if this is exactly what I want to do, so I'm just going to take a step back. And I moved back home, I lived with my parents for a few months, for a couple years actually. But as I was living with them, you know, that summer right after graduation I was just at home, you know, I had friends that were already figuring out what their next steps were going to be. Some were in the same boat as me. And my mom and I were driving to run errands somewhere near my parents' house and she was like, oh, there's this Montessori school that's really close to the shopping center where we live, have you thought about seeing if they're like--. Just look, you never know, you know, because it's a private school, right. So, they have different requirements for what kind of, you know, teaching certifications you'd need. Usually, private schools run pretty independently in that sense, so luckily, they were looking for a bilingual teaching assistant for a primary classroom, so I applied, and I got the job and I started working there and I was there for three years. Really enjoyed Montessori approach, learned a lot from it.
DV: This was now 2015, still? Like when you got the Montessori job? So, you graduated 2015?
KJ: Yeah, so I graduated in 2015, was at home for two months scrambling and [laughter] kind of breaking down because I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do with the rest of my life. And then realizing: oh, it's fine, I don't have to figure that out. It's still a lesson I'm learning now, but I got the job, I think, August.
DV: So just before the school year started, basically.
KJ: Yeah, so it worked out really well, and then I stayed there for three years.
DV: Okay. Well, start telling us about your time at the Montessori school.
KR: Yeah. I really loved the environment of Montessori education, especially in a primary classroom, which is a multi-age group, ages three to six. Everything is kind of oriented towards that stage of development, and so it's a lot of sensory activities, a lot of practical activities, like learning how to take care of yourself, like hand washing, which sounds a little bit very practical, but they really do need to know how to do it because they don't know how to wash their hands well at that point. Hand washing, but also things like taking care of the garden outside or watering the plants in the classroom. And also, social skills, you know, it's their first time really being in a social environment that's not their family, so I found that really, really exciting to be a part of that process. And I also met my partner there, so I'm really grateful for that season of my life for what it was. But at the end of it, I was really ready to just go somewhere that I could continue to apply those lessons that I learned there in a space where I knew that I was going to be able to give back, I guess. Private school, I guess now looking back at it, I'm not necessarily sure I agree with the idea of private school as a concept, and so working at a private school was like, this is great that these resources are available to these students but I know from my upbringing, and as a first generation college graduate, that none of these things were available to me, and I still figured it out, and I'm really grateful for that. But I think one of the reasons I was able to do that is because I had people like me that were spurring me on to those things. And so, I was like, I guess my thinking after these three years was, I've learned a lot of things, and I want to be able to take that into other settings. And not--. There's always going to be someone that's willing to work here. There's not always going to be somebody that's willing to work in other settings, you know, that, for lack of a better word, underserved or underprivileged. And I'm using air quotes, because I don't really like saying that, but it's, you know, that's what I was thinking about at the time was, you know, I didn't have all of these things that I am giving my students and I still was able to be who I am. And I want to be able to do that for somebody else.
DV: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
KR: Yeah.
DV: So private school was in a way somewhat insulated, and you wanted to take some more of that elsewhere. So where else did you go from there?
KR: Yeah, so at that point I had been dating my partner for two years and his family is from Louisville, Kentucky. His dad is, that's where he grew up and his grandparents were still based there and some of his extended family. And so, his grandfather had really progressed in his dementia and he knew that he was going to, you know, not have so much time with him and so he told me, you know, I want to make this move and I want you to come with me. And honestly at the time I really didn't want to stay in Charlotte. I've never had an affinity to Charlotte. I think I probably referenced this in my previous interview, but I moved to Charlotte when I was a sophomore in high school, so I had a very difficult time adjusting to suburban Charlotte, growing up in New York City. So, I was just not really looking to stay, and this was my reason to leave, so I jumped at the opportunity to start anew and didn't really have a plan. But I ended up, through one of Matt's college friends--. She was working at a non-profit, and I ended up working at that non-profit too, as my first year as an AmeriCorps VISTA volunteer. And then my two years after that as a staff member. So, that was--. And then after that, I actually did another VISTA year with a different non-profit organization. So, I did two VISTA years in Louisville.
DV: In Louisville, okay.
KR: Yeah, and I got a really intense non-profit background in small non-profit, like local non-profit work.
DV: A crash course.
KR: Yeah.
DV: Okay, and what kind of work were you doing at least for the first VISTA?
KR: Yeah, so the first VISTA was with Educational Justice, small non-profit startup kind of type of non-profit. The focus was on 5th through 8th grade students and mentoring them through our 9th through 12th grade volunteers. So, we would pair, ideally we would pair a 5th grade student with a 9th grade student so they could stay paired for multiple years. If you know about Blue Ribbon Mentor here in Chapel Hill, Carrboro, well, there's a--. Through Chapel Hill- Carrboro Community Schools, there's a similar kind of program where they do a kind of a more consistent, intense type of mentoring program so that they build a relationship and they kind of follow each other through their schooling. So, I think Blue Ribbon in Chapel Hill does this, I think, with adults. So, it's a little bit different, but it's the same idea of forming a relationship with someone and emphasizing that in order to connect that to their academic success. So, I was a program administrator, so I basically facilitated the applications on both ends for the students receiving tutoring and for the students interested in volunteering, and also orienting the families. And doing all of that in Spanish too, because I was the only Spanish speaker. So yeah, that was definitely, like you said, a crash course. I'd never used Spanish professionally really before that.
DV: Wow.
KR: I mean, I had at the Montessori school, technically I was, you know, giving language--. I was speaking in Spanish to the children, but nothing as intentional as this kind of--. It was more of a professional setting, I guess, that's as far as I can say.
DV: Yeah. What is educational justice?
KR: The non-profit or the concept in general?
DV: The concept, I think I get some of the outlines from where you've already described, the work you were doing, but what does it mean to you?
KR: To me, well, that's a big question. I mean, I think equal outcomes is probably what I would say now. It's the idea that regardless of where you start, you have the potential to reach the same outcome as somebody else. I don't think that's true necessarily, but right now as we exist today, but that's the goal is being able to have equal outcomes, yeah, and equal opportunities.
DV: Okay, I understand. And did this lead to the next VISTA appointment, or were you looking for something else to be able to stay in Louisville another year?
KR: Kind of. That's where it gets kind of messy, and I don't mind saying it because I think it's more public information now. Basically, the board of that nonprofit, EJ for short, made a lot of decisions that the staff did not agree with. And so, we were seven full-time staff, and all seven full-time staff left.
DV: Wow.
KR: Yeah. So, it was kind of an unexpected move for me. I was honestly fully intending to stay in that job for a long time. Coming to Louisville was also originally not part of my plan, and so when I moved, I was like, okay, let's see how this goes. And then I ended up loving my job. My partner's grandfather passed away about a year into us living in Louisville, and he was like, we don't have to stay here. I did what I wanted to do, I was there for my family, and if we want to move on, we can. And I was like, no, I love it here. I've really built my community here. I was really invested in the local students, in the local nonprofit culture. It is kind of cliquey, but it is just very--. Everyone knows everyone, and I was networking, I was building myself professionally. And then that happened, and it really kind of pulled the rug out for me and what I thought that I was going to do and so the VISTA position--. Honestly, I was kind of looking for something but I wasn't sure what I was going to transition out of or what other nonprofit work I could transition into, and so it was housing advocacy work and I was like, well I am interested in kind of more the advocacy side of things. And I know based on my experience in this education nonprofit that housing is the most intersectional issue, and so I was like, at least--. Even if I don't continue in housing advocacy, at least I will have a foundational understanding that I can take with me into my other jobs because housing affects everyone. That's ultimately why I ended up taking that position, even though I don't think I was necessarily, it wasn't my first choice, I would say, because I didn't want to do another VISTA position again. But I was also very wary of non-profit work because of my experience that I just had. And I wanted to go somewhere where I knew that I would have a good team and a good boss. And I got that feeling from the beginning of the interview process with them. And the boss that I ended up working with I still really respect and admire and think about him very often because of the work culture that he created. So, although it wasn't in my plan, I am really grateful for that time too because of what I also learned there.
DV: So, tell us more about that time.
KR: Yeah, so that was at Coalition for the Homeless which is a housing advocacy organization. And they focus not only on homelessness, but also on just, renters’ rights issues. So, my main focus was helping with the eviction outreach team. So, when the federal government did the CARES Act or ARPA, I can't remember that, or the--. Yeah, it was the ARPA money. When they distributed that to the state, Louisville got its own pot of funds from the state to do emergency rental assistance with the Louisville Office of Housing, their government there. And they asked the coalition if--. They used some of that funding to hire eviction outreach workers, because we do the work of actually letting people know about the program. Because in the beginning, they had this emergency rental assistance money, basically for anyone that qualified under a certain income bracket, they could apply and get their rent paid out. If they had any back rents that they owed, they could get that paid and then avoid eviction. And so that was the big thing, once people have an eviction on their record, it's really, really hard to rent anywhere else. And so, we wanted to be able for them to avoid that. But in the beginning, when they first started the program, so many people just didn't know that they were, the local government was doing that. That's when they asked the Coalition to step in and help with that. And so, our team of outreach workers was going almost, I mean, probably five times, like Monday through Friday, we had--. There was three, yeah, three of them, were going door to door. They would get the eviction court docket and just go down the list and be like, hey, my name is so and so, I work for the Coalition, I'm a volunteer, I'm not the government, I'm not police, I'm just here to let you know that the Louisville Metro is offering rental assistance, and if you fall under a certain income bracket, you'll qualify, and here's the information. And so just spreading that as much as possible. And basically, I helped with the facilitation of that. We also managed volunteers once a month to help us do that, so I also managed that. So, kind of having to do all the background-slash-admin work for making that as an organized effort, because the grant was for a year. So that's kind of how my job corresponded for the grant’s term, was to help with that until the funds ran out, which they did, I think maybe a few months after I left in October.
DV: So, this was also a bilingual position. You were doing this--. You were using Spanish professionally again?
KR: Yes. I would say not to the same extent, only because at EJ I was conducting entire orientations and presentations in Spanish, whereas this was more casual. Like--.
DV: Sometimes you just need to use the language.
KR: Yeah, it was like if I knocked on a door and someone spoke Spanish, then I would speak Spanish. And we did get flyers translated and stuff like that, but I didn't translate those. We got those professionally translated because it's a lot of housing jargon. But yeah, it was more informal.
DV: Okay.
KR: Yeah.
DV: And then it's after that that you came back to North Carolina?
KR: Yes
DV: Okay. So, before we get to that, are there any anecdotes or experiences that you think might be interesting to share from the two VISTAs or from the Montessori School, from that time since college to this point?
KR: Yeah, I thought a lot about that because, I mean, it all kind of blends together now. But I think something that is more recent, when I was working at the coalition, towards the end of my time there, we tried to kind of facilitate these community conversations to figure out where to target our advocacy work, and also to include people with lived experience, people who are actually living through eviction, people that are actually renters and living paycheck-to-paycheck, to include them in the conversation of advocacy work. We were able to talk to some people, not too many. I think that was one issue too, is that just because of who the nonprofit is in the community, it was always hard to get a larger group of people together. But in one of those conversations, somebody that was there and participated, she had a very simple question. I'd never thought about it, but she just kind of said, I don't understand why you're doing this. Why do you care? Why does this matter to you? You're not going to be affected by this in any way. And yeah, I was taken aback, I think, because no one had ever been so direct with me in that way, and at this point I've been working in kind of, I don't want to say pub--. Not public, I guess just a kind of service settings. I worked in a classroom for such a long time, from age 18 to, you know, whatever, however much time I was in at the Montessori school, like six, no, seven years basically I was in a classroom setting to some capacity. So, some, you know--. In service to children and then serving the community and then serving renters and people on eviction and I never really asked myself that, and it was like, it stuck with me I guess because it was good to remember. I'm doing this for a reason, not just because I think it's the right thing to do, although I do think it's the right thing to do. But because I want to see the community be supported and the community that I love be taken care of. And so, it's just a nice reminder to be like, I'm not just doing this out of the goodness of my heart but because I believe in seeing that--. What is, like, realizing the world that I want to see, I guess. Being a part of that, not just saying like, oh, we need to change the way that housing is--. The, you know, housing legislation. Or we need to change the way that, you know, we treat homeless people, or we need to change the way that children are educated. I want to, when I say that, I want to be a part of that change too. So--.
DV: That question that you were asked, did it come from a confrontational standpoint or was it just a query, someone was just curious? Like, why do you care?
KR: I think a little bit of both, honestly. I think a little bit of both because that specific community conversation, we were in Louisville's West End, which is predominantly Black, and I'm Latina, obviously, and my supervisor was white, and so the majority of people participating in the conversation were Black, and so that, I think, dynamic of us as the facilitators, and them as the participants being Black, was pretty obvious, you know, it stood out, and also because of the location we were in the West End, which is their neighborhood. And I mean, people can Google this, but you know, especially with what happened with Breonna Taylor and all of that, there's just a lot of tension and a lot of people that don't--. Specifically, the government, but also the community at large, they don't feel heard or listened to or cared about in any way, especially in the West End. And so, for us to be there in their space, I think she was taken aback, but it was confrontational because it's like, why are you here, coming into our space and our community and what's your investment here? What's your real motivation, I guess. And I understood that, I wasn't offended by that. I understood where she was coming from. And I was glad that she asked it, because I still think, it makes me think now even, now in my work, now why do I do this? So, I keep that question in my head continuously.
DV: There are trust issues, obviously.
KR: Yeah, definitely. And I totally understand that.
DV: Yeah. Any other anecdotes you want to share from those previous experiences?
KR: I think, I mean, this kind of is in a similar vein, but maybe on the flip side of that conversation was when I first got hired, my supervisor who is the Director of Education and Advocacy, his name is George. One of the first things that he said to me when he hired me was, you know, I think about this job as really important to acknowledge power and power dynamics because of the type of work that we do. And so, there's going to be times that you're going to--. I'm going to say something or tell you to do something in a certain way and maybe you don't agree or you think that it could be done in a different way, but maybe you don't feel comfortable to say that, or share that with me, because I'm your boss, and you're my employee, and you report to me. And it's really important for you to know that I want you to know that I acknowledge that, and that if you do feel that way, you can tell me, and we can talk about it. It's always going to be a conversation.
DV: Wow.
KR: Yeah, I've never had a boss do that for me before. And I've also, again, something I've taken with me is thinking about not just myself as a person that has the potential to--. Or I guess in the past I have thought of myself as a person that has had power taken from them, but not necessarily as a person that can share or give power to others. And so now, I think because he gave me that ability to say, I do have power, and I do have the ability to share that power and give up power when I need to, or wield it in a way that will give others power too, I'm very mindful of that now. And that's something that I also take into my work, is like, how am I sharing my power? How am I yielding my own power? Because I do, we all do have our own power that we're sharing or receiving or wielding, so it's a question that also I take with me in my work, especially now as I’ve progressed, I feel like I’ve come into a new space in my career and working for the town. But that's something that also sticks with me, is the idea of power and how we can wield it positively or negatively.
DV: Yeah, I understand. It sounds like that whole experience was very enlightening.
KR: Yeah.
DV: What are some challenges that you encountered so far, in your journey and the various positions that you've held?
KR: Challenges. I did write this down because I was like, I can think of so many. Honestly, first one is just very practical, being broke. Working in a non-profit sector means that you're just underpaid. Luckily, I wasn't overworked most of the time. I think that both of the supervisors that I had were very respectful of my time, but I was definitely underpaid, which meant that I worked two jobs a lot of the time. And I only stopped working two jobs when my partner and I moved in together. So, it wasn't necessarily that I had been in a higher income bracket. It was just that I was sharing expenses with somebody now, so it was easier. So that was quite difficult. I was just really tired all the time.
DV: Through the time that you were in the Montessori school and the VISTAs, you were working two jobs?
KR: Yeah.
DV: Wow.
KR: Yeah. It was tough. And then, once I became a staff member at EJ, once my VISTA year was over, then I stopped working two jobs. Although I did a couple of times still, like seasonally, for Christmas gift shopping and stuff like that. I would pick up some shifts--. I worked at Starbucks on and off and then I worked at a local bakery, you know, just like icing the pastries and slicing bread and making coffee and stuff like that. So, it wasn't anything glamorous. But yeah, that was probably the hardest thing is, I was just--. It's so hard to be present when you're tired all the time and just working. But I think that also kind of contributed to the other things which is like, you know, networking and figuring out how to have, you know, build a resume and focusing on, kind of, long-term planning; it was hard for me to do during that time because I was working so much. And then also just not having that generational knowledge of career advancement. My mom did eventually get her degree. She did get her degree when I was--. Right before I started college, actually, she graduated with her Bachelor's degree in communications. But even for my mom, she was kind of starting her career late, and I saw her kind of having to figure that out a few times. I don't feel like I had a lot of guidance in what are my next steps here. I knew how to get to college, but then once I got to college and finished college, I was like, I don't know what to do next, really. I don't know what are my next steps. I don't know how to describe that more other than the generational knowledge.
DV: It sounds like you were navigating that with your mom almost at the same time then.
KR: Yeah.
DV: So, she didn't have that to be able to give to you.
KR: Yes, and she would--. If I asked, she would say the same thing. I think both of my parents are pretty self-aware of like, there's lots of things that in this regard we couldn't really share our guidance on because we also didn't have that guidance. And I think that having that lack of knowledge then also contributed to my imposter syndrome. I think that to me, coupled with what I talked about, not having--. Having a second job, but just like, I didn't have the vocabulary for it at the time, but when I was an undergrad, looking back now, I realize I had a lot of imposter syndrome. And even when I was, I think, at the non-profit that I was working at, I don't think I felt it as strongly. But it was, I think, the positions that I was taking and my, I guess, I don't want to say inability, because I don't think that's the right word. But I guess that feeling of feeling stuck, like I'm just going to stay in this nonprofit work and not really--. Kind of making lateral moves, I guess, for those four years in Louisville. It felt very lateral to me, those moves. I think one of the reasons that I wasn't, I guess, willing to take that risk is because I did have a lot of that imposter syndrome of, well, this is what I'm good at, and I don't think that I could do anything--.
DV: At a higher level?
KR: Yeah, I couldn't really see that for myself. But that's, I mean, yeah, that's imposter syndrome, I think. That and working two jobs, both of those things were probably the toughest.
DV: Well, how did you navigate, especially the imposter syndrome, how did you navigate that kind of challenge?
KR: I mean, honestly, what's funny is that I was telling my sister when I started this job with the town that this is the first time I felt imposter syndrome this strongly since I was in college. Starting at the town has really made me, brought me back to my college years and feeling like I don't know what I'm doing, I don't know what's going on, and I am not good at this. Which is not true. I know it's not true but I think more recently it's just been giving myself time. Yeah, I mean it sounds simple; I know that it's a little bit more complicated than that but really just giving myself time to adjust and giving myself space to do that, which is like--. It sounds, again, sounds obvious, but I didn't do that. And I don't--. I think that--. I didn’t think I was going to be getting emotional.
DV: It’s okay.
KR: When I think about my grandma coming here when she was in her 30s, my mom's mom, she never learned to speak English. She did lots of--.
DV: Take your time. [KR accepts a box of tissues].
KR: Thank you. She did lots of odd jobs, and cleaning houses, and making food for people. And I think, when I think about that, it's hard to feel like, gosh, I just lost my train of thought. I guess my point is that when I think about giving myself time and patience and grace, I think about how nobody else in my family had that. I feel like me and my sisters--especially my sister that I'm closest to in age, but both of us, I guess our generation--we're the first ones in our family to be able to say, I'm allowed to take up space, and I'm allowed to take time for myself and make those mistakes. Or even just make space to grow and change and learn. My grandma didn't have time to think about those things. And so, I think that one of the reasons why imposter system was so hard is because I didn’t always feel like, and still don’t sometime feel like I deserve to take that space, or that time, or that grace for myself, or that patience. But I think what's helped me is to think about, you know, because my grandma did these things, I can do those things. And it would be a waste if I didn't do those things that my grandma didn't get to do. I told my sister as much when she graduated last weekend, she got her Master's in urban and regional planning at Harvard, and I told her, I said, you're able to do this, and you're able to take this time to figure out who you are and who you want to be. Our parents didn't get to do that. Our grandma didn't get to do that. Our grandparents really didn't. And I'm proud of her for her degree, but I'm most proud that she's gotten to do that and that those opportunities have been afforded to us because our parents made those sacrifices. And our grandparents couldn’t, and they didn't have that time to take up that space and figure out their imposter syndrome, they just had to do things and not really think about it. And so, I think I’m--. I don't know, right now it feels like I'm always going to struggle with imposter syndrome, maybe I won't. But when I do, when I'm having a really hard day and I'm feeling like I'm spiraling, I don't know what's going on, I don't know what I'm doing; I try to remember, I don't always have to know what I'm doing and it's okay that I don't have it all figured out. Some days it's easier than others. And honestly, just acknowledging it and saying it out loud is the first step for me, and talking about it, honestly, with my sister, that really helps too, because we struggle with a lot of the same things. And honoring that lived experience is something we've talked about more recently too. And this kind of veers into a kind of a segue-way conversation, I guess, but just the idea that the lived experience that we have is valuable in our professional life and was not a consideration that I had until this job that I took with the town. And I've really been grateful for that, that that's something that the town values. And in the entire process that I was interviewing for, I felt like my lived experience was one of the reasons I was hired and I'm proud of that and I'm glad that they value that. And I've not necessarily worked somewhere where they were very explicit about that value and when I talked to my sister about it I hadn't realized that she was feeling that kind of imposter syndrome of, well, you know me and my peers are all applying to this fellowship with the city of New York. And they all have the same degree as me, right? So how am I going to stand out because we're all from Harvard. And I was telling her, I was like, you grew up in New York. We grew up low income. You have experience living in New York, in a way. And we left because of how gentrified it got and because how expensive it got, and like, that's important in the way that it informs your work because you're not talking about policy and people and their lived experience as a separate thing because you've lived that. And, you know, not everybody has that. That's something that's changing and that's something you should value and she'd always what she told me was: oh, I always just thought I don't want people to feel sorry for me. I don't want people to just say, oh, you're just this poor girl that grew up in the inner city, that kind of narrative. And it's like, no, that's not what I'm saying. But I'm saying that that is something that is valuable to have that experience. So, all that to say that, that really helps with imposter syndrome. But again, not every day is the same.
DV: Well thanks for sharing.
KR: Yeah.
DV: So, four years in Louisville?
KR: Yes.
DV: Two years doing a VISTA and then you stayed on at the second one, at the second non-profit?
KR: No, it was one year as a VISTA in the first non-profit at EJ, that's the name. So, I was one year as a VISTA at EJ, then two years on staff at EJ, the same place. So, I was there for three years. And then I did another AmeriCorps VISTA term at the Coalition for the Homeless for one year.
DV: Okay.
KR: And then I moved back here.
DV: And so, tell us about the move back to North Carolina. The decision and also what happened after.
KR: Sure. So honestly, decision also kind of unilateral for me, not unilateral for my partner. He wanted to apply to graduate school at UNC. So, he wanted to go to the occupational therapy program. So, he had already been applying, and he got in. He made his decision in April of 2022 that he wanted to accept it. Of course, I was happy to come back here. I had so many fond memories on UNC's campus and just like in Chapel Hill in general. And so, I was very happy that he wanted to come live here and be a student here. And so, I was like, absolutely, whatever job, I'll figure it out eventually. I did finish out my VISTA term remotely with the Coalition for the Homeless. So, I still had a job for a few months. And then I really, really took the time. I think this was the first time, actually, that I was like, okay, I have some savings and I have my partner, you know, and I want to take the time to actually look for a job that I really, really want and not just something that I'm going to take because I'm like, I don't know what to do next and I can't be broke right now, because I did feel like I was living paycheck to paycheck for a while. And so, I didn’t'--. I was looking for a job for about two months.
DV: This was last year?
KR: Yeah, in 2022. Yeah, so I applied but I was very judicious. I really just tried to apply to the jobs that I knew that I was interested in. And then coincidentally, my sister had actually applied for this job a few years back. And so, I showed her the posting, and she was like, oh, I applied for this job. Like, you know, you should totally apply for it I feel like you would be a really good fit and so that was really helpful before I started working for the town. I had someone you know, my sister, to help me through that process, but I did look for a long time and I was very, just much more selective than I had been in the past because I knew I was going to be also the only person working in our house, since my partner's a student.
DV: Okay, so then you now serve as the Community Connections Coordinator in Affordable Housing and Community Connections Department in Chapel Hill. So, can you tell us any details about this role and what your work is there?
KR: Yes. Actually, I'm going to look at my notes now because I'm doing my short elevator pitch. So, our team focuses on implementing the town's equitable community engagement policies and practices. We assist other departments within the town with any community engagement efforts or events that they have and also our team does community events, often to hear from residents. And also, specifically, we always target our outreach to those who identify as historically marginalized communities. There is two Community Connections Coordinators and a Community Connections Manager. So, I specifically focus on the town's implementations of the Building Integrated Communities grant, and that's a grant we have through UNC and Blue Cross Blue Shield Foundation. The big grant helps us, or helps I guess local governments at large, to create inclusive practices for immigrant and refugee communities, and that also includes our language access services, and I facilitate that across the town departments as well as externally for residents who use the town services or attend the town events. So that's a big focus, is language access in my in my job.
DV: Okay, and you've been doing that since December I think you had mentioned before?
KR: Yes, like mid-December and then I went away for the holidays and then really started in January. Although I did get a couple weeks of work in December, yeah.
DV: Okay, how's that going?
KR: It's good. It's super, super new. Everything that I'm doing is just something that I've never done before. I felt like all the previous roles I had once I graduated were very related. So, you know, like I worked at the Montessori School and then I worked at an education center non-profit and then I worked in housing advocacy. So, all kind of related very directly. Although even now this role I still see as really centered on community education, whether that's the town staff as the community or the residents at large as community. I think, I really love the work of community education at-large and so this is I guess just doing that in a really new way and through local government lens. It's just very different than any other role that I've had. So, yeah, it's all new to me.
DV: Okay. Yeah, I was going to ask you if you still connected it to education, since that was a theme that you were developing in college. So, it seems like you do.
KR: Yes, definitely. And I think I'm still interested in eventually getting my Masters of Ed because I've, what I've observed in all of the different roles that I've had, even in a place like Starbucks where I worked, is that a lot of people don't know how to, when they're training somebody, teach them a process in a way that is, that is going to stick with them and then that they're able to absorb that information enough that then they can go and teach the next person. So basically, teaching as a skill. I think it is a hard skill and it's definitely a skill that you need to work on and learn and I think when people are in different managerial positions especially, they don't necessarily teach them that. And I like having that lens of education in all of my work that I've done, so I think about that a lot. I'm sorry, I think I lost my train of thought. What was the question?
DV: Oh, no. I was saying that--. Noticing that you still connect it to education in a way.
KR: Yes, I definitely do. I think it's important, and I want to continue. It's intentional on my part, at least, to continue that lens of education of treating it--. Any process that I do, whether that's speaking with a resident about the services that we offer or speaking with another town staff member, approaching it as: I want to give you this information so you can go and give it to somebody else in a digestible, easy way. So, I'm going to bring it down to brass tacks, be visual or auditory, whatever is the way that you best receive information. Knowing your audience, I guess.
DV: Considering all of these experiences since your last interview, since you were in college and through the experiences you've just shared with us, what were some of the main factors that you think helped you along the way? Whether abstract or, you’ve already mentioned some specific people that were important, factors that you think that have been important in your journey?
KR: Yeah, my family for sure. I mean, even though we don't necessarily--. I don't necessarily see eye-to-eye with them on a lot of our world views anymore. They're quite religious and I'm not. That religious upbringing really did give me a sense of what it means to take care of your community and to be a part of bringing justice to the world, I guess, in that sense. So, my sense of justice has always come from my family and my religious upbringing, even though I have implemented it, I guess, in a different way than they expected. Although they do really, really like what I do. They think it's really cool. But yeah, my family, for sure. Having people that look like me, just--. And it sounds weird saying it now, because again, it was one of those things I don't think I was conscious of when I was a kid, but my parents always made sure that, even though they didn't have a college degree, that we were interacting with other adults who did, or that were professionals in some way, and had, and were Latino or Latine people. And so that was really cool. Looking back on it now, I realized that was very intentional on my parents' part.
DV: They wanted you to see many different roles that someone like you could, spaces that you could fill?
KR: Yeah, and my mom's brothers, her half-brothers, they specifically were the ones that really introduced me to other professionals because my parents' network was small in the sense that a lot of their community and the people that they were close to, their loved ones, our chosen church family, a lot of them were similar to my parents. They were first-gen Americans, were also working-class, blue-collar jobs, and so my mom's half-brothers, both of them, had their Master's degrees. And so, the time that I got to spend with them, whether here or in New York, because that's where I lived, but so the time I got to spend with them either in New York or on the West Coast was a lot of them introducing me to their network and their friends, which were all professionals like them. And again, this is not something conscious that I realized at the time, but looking back on it now, it was like, yeah, I was able to meet that network of extended people that looked like me and that were professionals and gave me an idea of the different possibilities that I could have. Yeah, that was helpful for sure. That and now I guess more contemporary is just valuing and honoring my lived experience which I kind of spoke to earlier, but yeah. I don't know if I could make it more--. I think that's pretty much it, is just being very conscious of valuing and honoring my lived experience as important and as something that I can bring to the table as an asset, not just as something that's part of my, part of who I am, but something that I can share with other people too, professionally as--. In the professional space as well.
DV: What do you think is the meaning of leadership and what advice would you give to future Latine leaders?
KR: Yeah, that was a hard question, too. I think, though, that kind of the anecdote that I shared earlier, kind of still applies I think in this case. For me the best supervisors that I've had and the people that I've considered leaders are people that know how to share their power first and foremost, and also just know how to push their team to their best work but not in a way that's demanding or that's you know I guess kind of like a stick with a, you know, the sticker carrot method, I guess that's what I think of. But just in a way that's really genuine of believing, you know, this is what I know that you can do. And being genuinely enthusiastic about it and also being genuine about, you know, there's going to be times when this doesn't work and that's okay and we can start over or try something else, and I'll be supportive of that. Those environments for me have always felt like the leadership that I've been most attracted to and most admired when I've seen in other people and so that's something that I would like to have as my leadership style, too.
DV: Great, thank you. Alright, to conclude what are your hopes for the future? For your personal life or professional life, for your community?
KR: Yeah, for myself, I mean I do want to get my Master's in Ed and eventually I want to have kids, eventually. But I don't think that's--. I think it's one of many successes. I'd like to own a home sometime, eventually. My sister and I have talked about owning a duplex together, because we grew up in a duplex with my grandparents downstairs, so we'd like to own a duplex together, raise our kids together.
DV: That's so lovely.
KR: Yeah, yeah. We've got to figure out our--. Now that she's got her master's, now I've got to get my master's, and then we can start thinking about our next steps in the future. And then professionally, after I get my master's, I don't, I mean, I want to keep--. I mean, I think I can see myself continuing in local government to be honest, I really enjoyed it. And I can see myself progressing, you know, in a way that I hadn't been able to see before in my other roles, to be honest. Even becoming a director of a department would be--. I can see being really a cool job. But I'm also open to, you know, I don't want to put myself in a box too much, I guess, and I guess that's my future aspiration, is to continue to push myself a little bit. Because if I hadn't taken that time to push myself and try applying to this job with the town, I think I would have continued in nonprofit work. So, I guess that's my professional hope for the future, is not being stagnant, being willing to be a little bit uncomfortable. And for my community, I mean, I just--. I want to see more people just be taken care of, to be honest, if I could put it that concisely. And also, just more opportunities for civic engagement. I think now more than ever I'm realizing being civically engaged is so important. And I know, I've always heard that voting is important, being involved in your community is important, but being involved in what your local government is doing, going to the town council meetings if you can, and just knowing what's going on in your city is so important. Yeah, I mean, I just want to see people thrive, I guess. That's the long-winded way of saying it. I just want to see people thrive.
DV: That makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. Okay, thank you so much, Katelyn.
[END OF TRANSCRIPTION]
Transcribers: Sofia Godoy & Daniel Velásquez
Interview Date: 2023 May 30
Date of Transcription: 2023 August 7 / Revisions: 2023 October 17
Es: Transcripción
Daniel Velásquez: Okay, today is the 30th of May of 2023. I am Daniel Velásquez. I am in the Global Education Center at the UNC-Chapel Hill campus. I'm here with Katelyn Robalino, a Community Connections Coordinator for the Affordable Housing and Community Connections Department at the Town of Chapel Hill. Katelyn, thank you so much for sitting down with me.
Katelyn Robalino: Yeah.
DV: And updating us on what you've been up to. Katelyn has an interview with us already archived on the New Roots website, but she has journeyed past that interview and is here to update us on what she's been up to. So, thank you for being with us.
KR: Yeah, definitely, it feels like so long ago now. It was 10 years ago.
DV: Wow. Okay, well can you update us on the last years of college and the time immediately after? I think that that was the time of your first interview. You were in, I think, a sophomore or junior in college?
KR: I think I was a sophomore. Yeah, I must have been because it was in the spring of 2013, so I was in in my second semester of my sophomore year. I wouldn't necessarily say that I ended up doing what I thought I was going to do. I had kind of some vague interests in education because my work study when I was an undergrad was at the Franklin Porter Graham Child Development Center, which actually doesn't exist. So, my work study job was a teaching assistant for two years. So, my first two years of undergrad I worked there and I really loved it. And that was the first time that I considered I really like working with children and being part of that environment and watching them develop and assisting in that process. And I was like, I wonder if I could be a teacher, but at the time I was so locked into my major that I kind of was like, I don't think I can necessarily do that.
DV: Can you remind us, what was your major?
KR: I was a studio art and Italian double major, so two different, really unrelated ones. And at the time I was interested in either art education or art therapy, so I was already thinking about a more professionalized degree, getting a master's eventually, but I wasn't quite sure exactly what that would look like. So, I did art and Italian not really with a specific purpose other than those were subjects that I was interested in. And then I, you know, after graduation, I had applied for a couple of different education-related stuff. I did apply for Teach for America, I got to the final round, didn't get in, was really devastated by that. Did some teaching, residency applications, again got through a few rounds, but really just panicked and was like, I don't know if this is exactly what I want to do, so I'm just going to take a step back. And I moved back home, I lived with my parents for a few months, for a couple years actually. But as I was living with them, you know, that summer right after graduation I was just at home, you know, I had friends that were already figuring out what their next steps were going to be. Some were in the same boat as me. And my mom and I were driving to run errands somewhere near my parents' house and she was like, oh, there's this Montessori school that's really close to the shopping center where we live, have you thought about seeing if they're like--. Just look, you never know, you know, because it's a private school, right. So, they have different requirements for what kind of, you know, teaching certifications you'd need. Usually, private schools run pretty independently in that sense, so luckily, they were looking for a bilingual teaching assistant for a primary classroom, so I applied, and I got the job and I started working there and I was there for three years. Really enjoyed Montessori approach, learned a lot from it.
DV: This was now 2015, still? Like when you got the Montessori job? So, you graduated 2015?
KJ: Yeah, so I graduated in 2015, was at home for two months scrambling and [laughter] kind of breaking down because I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do with the rest of my life. And then realizing: oh, it's fine, I don't have to figure that out. It's still a lesson I'm learning now, but I got the job, I think, August.
DV: So just before the school year started, basically.
KJ: Yeah, so it worked out really well, and then I stayed there for three years.
DV: Okay. Well, start telling us about your time at the Montessori school.
KR: Yeah. I really loved the environment of Montessori education, especially in a primary classroom, which is a multi-age group, ages three to six. Everything is kind of oriented towards that stage of development, and so it's a lot of sensory activities, a lot of practical activities, like learning how to take care of yourself, like hand washing, which sounds a little bit very practical, but they really do need to know how to do it because they don't know how to wash their hands well at that point. Hand washing, but also things like taking care of the garden outside or watering the plants in the classroom. And also, social skills, you know, it's their first time really being in a social environment that's not their family, so I found that really, really exciting to be a part of that process. And I also met my partner there, so I'm really grateful for that season of my life for what it was. But at the end of it, I was really ready to just go somewhere that I could continue to apply those lessons that I learned there in a space where I knew that I was going to be able to give back, I guess. Private school, I guess now looking back at it, I'm not necessarily sure I agree with the idea of private school as a concept, and so working at a private school was like, this is great that these resources are available to these students but I know from my upbringing, and as a first generation college graduate, that none of these things were available to me, and I still figured it out, and I'm really grateful for that. But I think one of the reasons I was able to do that is because I had people like me that were spurring me on to those things. And so, I was like, I guess my thinking after these three years was, I've learned a lot of things, and I want to be able to take that into other settings. And not--. There's always going to be someone that's willing to work here. There's not always going to be somebody that's willing to work in other settings, you know, that, for lack of a better word, underserved or underprivileged. And I'm using air quotes, because I don't really like saying that, but it's, you know, that's what I was thinking about at the time was, you know, I didn't have all of these things that I am giving my students and I still was able to be who I am. And I want to be able to do that for somebody else.
DV: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
KR: Yeah.
DV: So private school was in a way somewhat insulated, and you wanted to take some more of that elsewhere. So where else did you go from there?
KR: Yeah, so at that point I had been dating my partner for two years and his family is from Louisville, Kentucky. His dad is, that's where he grew up and his grandparents were still based there and some of his extended family. And so, his grandfather had really progressed in his dementia and he knew that he was going to, you know, not have so much time with him and so he told me, you know, I want to make this move and I want you to come with me. And honestly at the time I really didn't want to stay in Charlotte. I've never had an affinity to Charlotte. I think I probably referenced this in my previous interview, but I moved to Charlotte when I was a sophomore in high school, so I had a very difficult time adjusting to suburban Charlotte, growing up in New York City. So, I was just not really looking to stay, and this was my reason to leave, so I jumped at the opportunity to start anew and didn't really have a plan. But I ended up, through one of Matt's college friends--. She was working at a non-profit, and I ended up working at that non-profit too, as my first year as an AmeriCorps VISTA volunteer. And then my two years after that as a staff member. So, that was--. And then after that, I actually did another VISTA year with a different non-profit organization. So, I did two VISTA years in Louisville.
DV: In Louisville, okay.
KR: Yeah, and I got a really intense non-profit background in small non-profit, like local non-profit work.
DV: A crash course.
KR: Yeah.
DV: Okay, and what kind of work were you doing at least for the first VISTA?
KR: Yeah, so the first VISTA was with Educational Justice, small non-profit startup kind of type of non-profit. The focus was on 5th through 8th grade students and mentoring them through our 9th through 12th grade volunteers. So, we would pair, ideally we would pair a 5th grade student with a 9th grade student so they could stay paired for multiple years. If you know about Blue Ribbon Mentor here in Chapel Hill, Carrboro, well, there's a--. Through Chapel Hill- Carrboro Community Schools, there's a similar kind of program where they do a kind of a more consistent, intense type of mentoring program so that they build a relationship and they kind of follow each other through their schooling. So, I think Blue Ribbon in Chapel Hill does this, I think, with adults. So, it's a little bit different, but it's the same idea of forming a relationship with someone and emphasizing that in order to connect that to their academic success. So, I was a program administrator, so I basically facilitated the applications on both ends for the students receiving tutoring and for the students interested in volunteering, and also orienting the families. And doing all of that in Spanish too, because I was the only Spanish speaker. So yeah, that was definitely, like you said, a crash course. I'd never used Spanish professionally really before that.
DV: Wow.
KR: I mean, I had at the Montessori school, technically I was, you know, giving language--. I was speaking in Spanish to the children, but nothing as intentional as this kind of--. It was more of a professional setting, I guess, that's as far as I can say.
DV: Yeah. What is educational justice?
KR: The non-profit or the concept in general?
DV: The concept, I think I get some of the outlines from where you've already described, the work you were doing, but what does it mean to you?
KR: To me, well, that's a big question. I mean, I think equal outcomes is probably what I would say now. It's the idea that regardless of where you start, you have the potential to reach the same outcome as somebody else. I don't think that's true necessarily, but right now as we exist today, but that's the goal is being able to have equal outcomes, yeah, and equal opportunities.
DV: Okay, I understand. And did this lead to the next VISTA appointment, or were you looking for something else to be able to stay in Louisville another year?
KR: Kind of. That's where it gets kind of messy, and I don't mind saying it because I think it's more public information now. Basically, the board of that nonprofit, EJ for short, made a lot of decisions that the staff did not agree with. And so, we were seven full-time staff, and all seven full-time staff left.
DV: Wow.
KR: Yeah. So, it was kind of an unexpected move for me. I was honestly fully intending to stay in that job for a long time. Coming to Louisville was also originally not part of my plan, and so when I moved, I was like, okay, let's see how this goes. And then I ended up loving my job. My partner's grandfather passed away about a year into us living in Louisville, and he was like, we don't have to stay here. I did what I wanted to do, I was there for my family, and if we want to move on, we can. And I was like, no, I love it here. I've really built my community here. I was really invested in the local students, in the local nonprofit culture. It is kind of cliquey, but it is just very--. Everyone knows everyone, and I was networking, I was building myself professionally. And then that happened, and it really kind of pulled the rug out for me and what I thought that I was going to do and so the VISTA position--. Honestly, I was kind of looking for something but I wasn't sure what I was going to transition out of or what other nonprofit work I could transition into, and so it was housing advocacy work and I was like, well I am interested in kind of more the advocacy side of things. And I know based on my experience in this education nonprofit that housing is the most intersectional issue, and so I was like, at least--. Even if I don't continue in housing advocacy, at least I will have a foundational understanding that I can take with me into my other jobs because housing affects everyone. That's ultimately why I ended up taking that position, even though I don't think I was necessarily, it wasn't my first choice, I would say, because I didn't want to do another VISTA position again. But I was also very wary of non-profit work because of my experience that I just had. And I wanted to go somewhere where I knew that I would have a good team and a good boss. And I got that feeling from the beginning of the interview process with them. And the boss that I ended up working with I still really respect and admire and think about him very often because of the work culture that he created. So, although it wasn't in my plan, I am really grateful for that time too because of what I also learned there.
DV: So, tell us more about that time.
KR: Yeah, so that was at Coalition for the Homeless which is a housing advocacy organization. And they focus not only on homelessness, but also on just, renters’ rights issues. So, my main focus was helping with the eviction outreach team. So, when the federal government did the CARES Act or ARPA, I can't remember that, or the--. Yeah, it was the ARPA money. When they distributed that to the state, Louisville got its own pot of funds from the state to do emergency rental assistance with the Louisville Office of Housing, their government there. And they asked the coalition if--. They used some of that funding to hire eviction outreach workers, because we do the work of actually letting people know about the program. Because in the beginning, they had this emergency rental assistance money, basically for anyone that qualified under a certain income bracket, they could apply and get their rent paid out. If they had any back rents that they owed, they could get that paid and then avoid eviction. And so that was the big thing, once people have an eviction on their record, it's really, really hard to rent anywhere else. And so, we wanted to be able for them to avoid that. But in the beginning, when they first started the program, so many people just didn't know that they were, the local government was doing that. That's when they asked the Coalition to step in and help with that. And so, our team of outreach workers was going almost, I mean, probably five times, like Monday through Friday, we had--. There was three, yeah, three of them, were going door to door. They would get the eviction court docket and just go down the list and be like, hey, my name is so and so, I work for the Coalition, I'm a volunteer, I'm not the government, I'm not police, I'm just here to let you know that the Louisville Metro is offering rental assistance, and if you fall under a certain income bracket, you'll qualify, and here's the information. And so just spreading that as much as possible. And basically, I helped with the facilitation of that. We also managed volunteers once a month to help us do that, so I also managed that. So, kind of having to do all the background-slash-admin work for making that as an organized effort, because the grant was for a year. So that's kind of how my job corresponded for the grant’s term, was to help with that until the funds ran out, which they did, I think maybe a few months after I left in October.
DV: So, this was also a bilingual position. You were doing this--. You were using Spanish professionally again?
KR: Yes. I would say not to the same extent, only because at EJ I was conducting entire orientations and presentations in Spanish, whereas this was more casual. Like--.
DV: Sometimes you just need to use the language.
KR: Yeah, it was like if I knocked on a door and someone spoke Spanish, then I would speak Spanish. And we did get flyers translated and stuff like that, but I didn't translate those. We got those professionally translated because it's a lot of housing jargon. But yeah, it was more informal.
DV: Okay.
KR: Yeah.
DV: And then it's after that that you came back to North Carolina?
KR: Yes
DV: Okay. So, before we get to that, are there any anecdotes or experiences that you think might be interesting to share from the two VISTAs or from the Montessori School, from that time since college to this point?
KR: Yeah, I thought a lot about that because, I mean, it all kind of blends together now. But I think something that is more recent, when I was working at the coalition, towards the end of my time there, we tried to kind of facilitate these community conversations to figure out where to target our advocacy work, and also to include people with lived experience, people who are actually living through eviction, people that are actually renters and living paycheck-to-paycheck, to include them in the conversation of advocacy work. We were able to talk to some people, not too many. I think that was one issue too, is that just because of who the nonprofit is in the community, it was always hard to get a larger group of people together. But in one of those conversations, somebody that was there and participated, she had a very simple question. I'd never thought about it, but she just kind of said, I don't understand why you're doing this. Why do you care? Why does this matter to you? You're not going to be affected by this in any way. And yeah, I was taken aback, I think, because no one had ever been so direct with me in that way, and at this point I've been working in kind of, I don't want to say pub--. Not public, I guess just a kind of service settings. I worked in a classroom for such a long time, from age 18 to, you know, whatever, however much time I was in at the Montessori school, like six, no, seven years basically I was in a classroom setting to some capacity. So, some, you know--. In service to children and then serving the community and then serving renters and people on eviction and I never really asked myself that, and it was like, it stuck with me I guess because it was good to remember. I'm doing this for a reason, not just because I think it's the right thing to do, although I do think it's the right thing to do. But because I want to see the community be supported and the community that I love be taken care of. And so, it's just a nice reminder to be like, I'm not just doing this out of the goodness of my heart but because I believe in seeing that--. What is, like, realizing the world that I want to see, I guess. Being a part of that, not just saying like, oh, we need to change the way that housing is--. The, you know, housing legislation. Or we need to change the way that, you know, we treat homeless people, or we need to change the way that children are educated. I want to, when I say that, I want to be a part of that change too. So--.
DV: That question that you were asked, did it come from a confrontational standpoint or was it just a query, someone was just curious? Like, why do you care?
KR: I think a little bit of both, honestly. I think a little bit of both because that specific community conversation, we were in Louisville's West End, which is predominantly Black, and I'm Latina, obviously, and my supervisor was white, and so the majority of people participating in the conversation were Black, and so that, I think, dynamic of us as the facilitators, and them as the participants being Black, was pretty obvious, you know, it stood out, and also because of the location we were in the West End, which is their neighborhood. And I mean, people can Google this, but you know, especially with what happened with Breonna Taylor and all of that, there's just a lot of tension and a lot of people that don't--. Specifically, the government, but also the community at large, they don't feel heard or listened to or cared about in any way, especially in the West End. And so, for us to be there in their space, I think she was taken aback, but it was confrontational because it's like, why are you here, coming into our space and our community and what's your investment here? What's your real motivation, I guess. And I understood that, I wasn't offended by that. I understood where she was coming from. And I was glad that she asked it, because I still think, it makes me think now even, now in my work, now why do I do this? So, I keep that question in my head continuously.
DV: There are trust issues, obviously.
KR: Yeah, definitely. And I totally understand that.
DV: Yeah. Any other anecdotes you want to share from those previous experiences?
KR: I think, I mean, this kind of is in a similar vein, but maybe on the flip side of that conversation was when I first got hired, my supervisor who is the Director of Education and Advocacy, his name is George. One of the first things that he said to me when he hired me was, you know, I think about this job as really important to acknowledge power and power dynamics because of the type of work that we do. And so, there's going to be times that you're going to--. I'm going to say something or tell you to do something in a certain way and maybe you don't agree or you think that it could be done in a different way, but maybe you don't feel comfortable to say that, or share that with me, because I'm your boss, and you're my employee, and you report to me. And it's really important for you to know that I want you to know that I acknowledge that, and that if you do feel that way, you can tell me, and we can talk about it. It's always going to be a conversation.
DV: Wow.
KR: Yeah, I've never had a boss do that for me before. And I've also, again, something I've taken with me is thinking about not just myself as a person that has the potential to--. Or I guess in the past I have thought of myself as a person that has had power taken from them, but not necessarily as a person that can share or give power to others. And so now, I think because he gave me that ability to say, I do have power, and I do have the ability to share that power and give up power when I need to, or wield it in a way that will give others power too, I'm very mindful of that now. And that's something that I also take into my work, is like, how am I sharing my power? How am I yielding my own power? Because I do, we all do have our own power that we're sharing or receiving or wielding, so it's a question that also I take with me in my work, especially now as I’ve progressed, I feel like I’ve come into a new space in my career and working for the town. But that's something that also sticks with me, is the idea of power and how we can wield it positively or negatively.
DV: Yeah, I understand. It sounds like that whole experience was very enlightening.
KR: Yeah.
DV: What are some challenges that you encountered so far, in your journey and the various positions that you've held?
KR: Challenges. I did write this down because I was like, I can think of so many. Honestly, first one is just very practical, being broke. Working in a non-profit sector means that you're just underpaid. Luckily, I wasn't overworked most of the time. I think that both of the supervisors that I had were very respectful of my time, but I was definitely underpaid, which meant that I worked two jobs a lot of the time. And I only stopped working two jobs when my partner and I moved in together. So, it wasn't necessarily that I had been in a higher income bracket. It was just that I was sharing expenses with somebody now, so it was easier. So that was quite difficult. I was just really tired all the time.
DV: Through the time that you were in the Montessori school and the VISTAs, you were working two jobs?
KR: Yeah.
DV: Wow.
KR: Yeah. It was tough. And then, once I became a staff member at EJ, once my VISTA year was over, then I stopped working two jobs. Although I did a couple of times still, like seasonally, for Christmas gift shopping and stuff like that. I would pick up some shifts--. I worked at Starbucks on and off and then I worked at a local bakery, you know, just like icing the pastries and slicing bread and making coffee and stuff like that. So, it wasn't anything glamorous. But yeah, that was probably the hardest thing is, I was just--. It's so hard to be present when you're tired all the time and just working. But I think that also kind of contributed to the other things which is like, you know, networking and figuring out how to have, you know, build a resume and focusing on, kind of, long-term planning; it was hard for me to do during that time because I was working so much. And then also just not having that generational knowledge of career advancement. My mom did eventually get her degree. She did get her degree when I was--. Right before I started college, actually, she graduated with her Bachelor's degree in communications. But even for my mom, she was kind of starting her career late, and I saw her kind of having to figure that out a few times. I don't feel like I had a lot of guidance in what are my next steps here. I knew how to get to college, but then once I got to college and finished college, I was like, I don't know what to do next, really. I don't know what are my next steps. I don't know how to describe that more other than the generational knowledge.
DV: It sounds like you were navigating that with your mom almost at the same time then.
KR: Yeah.
DV: So, she didn't have that to be able to give to you.
KR: Yes, and she would--. If I asked, she would say the same thing. I think both of my parents are pretty self-aware of like, there's lots of things that in this regard we couldn't really share our guidance on because we also didn't have that guidance. And I think that having that lack of knowledge then also contributed to my imposter syndrome. I think that to me, coupled with what I talked about, not having--. Having a second job, but just like, I didn't have the vocabulary for it at the time, but when I was an undergrad, looking back now, I realize I had a lot of imposter syndrome. And even when I was, I think, at the non-profit that I was working at, I don't think I felt it as strongly. But it was, I think, the positions that I was taking and my, I guess, I don't want to say inability, because I don't think that's the right word. But I guess that feeling of feeling stuck, like I'm just going to stay in this nonprofit work and not really--. Kind of making lateral moves, I guess, for those four years in Louisville. It felt very lateral to me, those moves. I think one of the reasons that I wasn't, I guess, willing to take that risk is because I did have a lot of that imposter syndrome of, well, this is what I'm good at, and I don't think that I could do anything--.
DV: At a higher level?
KR: Yeah, I couldn't really see that for myself. But that's, I mean, yeah, that's imposter syndrome, I think. That and working two jobs, both of those things were probably the toughest.
DV: Well, how did you navigate, especially the imposter syndrome, how did you navigate that kind of challenge?
KR: I mean, honestly, what's funny is that I was telling my sister when I started this job with the town that this is the first time I felt imposter syndrome this strongly since I was in college. Starting at the town has really made me, brought me back to my college years and feeling like I don't know what I'm doing, I don't know what's going on, and I am not good at this. Which is not true. I know it's not true but I think more recently it's just been giving myself time. Yeah, I mean it sounds simple; I know that it's a little bit more complicated than that but really just giving myself time to adjust and giving myself space to do that, which is like--. It sounds, again, sounds obvious, but I didn't do that. And I don't--. I think that--. I didn’t think I was going to be getting emotional.
DV: It’s okay.
KR: When I think about my grandma coming here when she was in her 30s, my mom's mom, she never learned to speak English. She did lots of--.
DV: Take your time. [KR accepts a box of tissues].
KR: Thank you. She did lots of odd jobs, and cleaning houses, and making food for people. And I think, when I think about that, it's hard to feel like, gosh, I just lost my train of thought. I guess my point is that when I think about giving myself time and patience and grace, I think about how nobody else in my family had that. I feel like me and my sisters--especially my sister that I'm closest to in age, but both of us, I guess our generation--we're the first ones in our family to be able to say, I'm allowed to take up space, and I'm allowed to take time for myself and make those mistakes. Or even just make space to grow and change and learn. My grandma didn't have time to think about those things. And so, I think that one of the reasons why imposter system was so hard is because I didn’t always feel like, and still don’t sometime feel like I deserve to take that space, or that time, or that grace for myself, or that patience. But I think what's helped me is to think about, you know, because my grandma did these things, I can do those things. And it would be a waste if I didn't do those things that my grandma didn't get to do. I told my sister as much when she graduated last weekend, she got her Master's in urban and regional planning at Harvard, and I told her, I said, you're able to do this, and you're able to take this time to figure out who you are and who you want to be. Our parents didn't get to do that. Our grandma didn't get to do that. Our grandparents really didn't. And I'm proud of her for her degree, but I'm most proud that she's gotten to do that and that those opportunities have been afforded to us because our parents made those sacrifices. And our grandparents couldn’t, and they didn't have that time to take up that space and figure out their imposter syndrome, they just had to do things and not really think about it. And so, I think I’m--. I don't know, right now it feels like I'm always going to struggle with imposter syndrome, maybe I won't. But when I do, when I'm having a really hard day and I'm feeling like I'm spiraling, I don't know what's going on, I don't know what I'm doing; I try to remember, I don't always have to know what I'm doing and it's okay that I don't have it all figured out. Some days it's easier than others. And honestly, just acknowledging it and saying it out loud is the first step for me, and talking about it, honestly, with my sister, that really helps too, because we struggle with a lot of the same things. And honoring that lived experience is something we've talked about more recently too. And this kind of veers into a kind of a segue-way conversation, I guess, but just the idea that the lived experience that we have is valuable in our professional life and was not a consideration that I had until this job that I took with the town. And I've really been grateful for that, that that's something that the town values. And in the entire process that I was interviewing for, I felt like my lived experience was one of the reasons I was hired and I'm proud of that and I'm glad that they value that. And I've not necessarily worked somewhere where they were very explicit about that value and when I talked to my sister about it I hadn't realized that she was feeling that kind of imposter syndrome of, well, you know me and my peers are all applying to this fellowship with the city of New York. And they all have the same degree as me, right? So how am I going to stand out because we're all from Harvard. And I was telling her, I was like, you grew up in New York. We grew up low income. You have experience living in New York, in a way. And we left because of how gentrified it got and because how expensive it got, and like, that's important in the way that it informs your work because you're not talking about policy and people and their lived experience as a separate thing because you've lived that. And, you know, not everybody has that. That's something that's changing and that's something you should value and she'd always what she told me was: oh, I always just thought I don't want people to feel sorry for me. I don't want people to just say, oh, you're just this poor girl that grew up in the inner city, that kind of narrative. And it's like, no, that's not what I'm saying. But I'm saying that that is something that is valuable to have that experience. So, all that to say that, that really helps with imposter syndrome. But again, not every day is the same.
DV: Well thanks for sharing.
KR: Yeah.
DV: So, four years in Louisville?
KR: Yes.
DV: Two years doing a VISTA and then you stayed on at the second one, at the second non-profit?
KR: No, it was one year as a VISTA in the first non-profit at EJ, that's the name. So, I was one year as a VISTA at EJ, then two years on staff at EJ, the same place. So, I was there for three years. And then I did another AmeriCorps VISTA term at the Coalition for the Homeless for one year.
DV: Okay.
KR: And then I moved back here.
DV: And so, tell us about the move back to North Carolina. The decision and also what happened after.
KR: Sure. So honestly, decision also kind of unilateral for me, not unilateral for my partner. He wanted to apply to graduate school at UNC. So, he wanted to go to the occupational therapy program. So, he had already been applying, and he got in. He made his decision in April of 2022 that he wanted to accept it. Of course, I was happy to come back here. I had so many fond memories on UNC's campus and just like in Chapel Hill in general. And so, I was very happy that he wanted to come live here and be a student here. And so, I was like, absolutely, whatever job, I'll figure it out eventually. I did finish out my VISTA term remotely with the Coalition for the Homeless. So, I still had a job for a few months. And then I really, really took the time. I think this was the first time, actually, that I was like, okay, I have some savings and I have my partner, you know, and I want to take the time to actually look for a job that I really, really want and not just something that I'm going to take because I'm like, I don't know what to do next and I can't be broke right now, because I did feel like I was living paycheck to paycheck for a while. And so, I didn’t'--. I was looking for a job for about two months.
DV: This was last year?
KR: Yeah, in 2022. Yeah, so I applied but I was very judicious. I really just tried to apply to the jobs that I knew that I was interested in. And then coincidentally, my sister had actually applied for this job a few years back. And so, I showed her the posting, and she was like, oh, I applied for this job. Like, you know, you should totally apply for it I feel like you would be a really good fit and so that was really helpful before I started working for the town. I had someone you know, my sister, to help me through that process, but I did look for a long time and I was very, just much more selective than I had been in the past because I knew I was going to be also the only person working in our house, since my partner's a student.
DV: Okay, so then you now serve as the Community Connections Coordinator in Affordable Housing and Community Connections Department in Chapel Hill. So, can you tell us any details about this role and what your work is there?
KR: Yes. Actually, I'm going to look at my notes now because I'm doing my short elevator pitch. So, our team focuses on implementing the town's equitable community engagement policies and practices. We assist other departments within the town with any community engagement efforts or events that they have and also our team does community events, often to hear from residents. And also, specifically, we always target our outreach to those who identify as historically marginalized communities. There is two Community Connections Coordinators and a Community Connections Manager. So, I specifically focus on the town's implementations of the Building Integrated Communities grant, and that's a grant we have through UNC and Blue Cross Blue Shield Foundation. The big grant helps us, or helps I guess local governments at large, to create inclusive practices for immigrant and refugee communities, and that also includes our language access services, and I facilitate that across the town departments as well as externally for residents who use the town services or attend the town events. So that's a big focus, is language access in my in my job.
DV: Okay, and you've been doing that since December I think you had mentioned before?
KR: Yes, like mid-December and then I went away for the holidays and then really started in January. Although I did get a couple weeks of work in December, yeah.
DV: Okay, how's that going?
KR: It's good. It's super, super new. Everything that I'm doing is just something that I've never done before. I felt like all the previous roles I had once I graduated were very related. So, you know, like I worked at the Montessori School and then I worked at an education center non-profit and then I worked in housing advocacy. So, all kind of related very directly. Although even now this role I still see as really centered on community education, whether that's the town staff as the community or the residents at large as community. I think, I really love the work of community education at-large and so this is I guess just doing that in a really new way and through local government lens. It's just very different than any other role that I've had. So, yeah, it's all new to me.
DV: Okay. Yeah, I was going to ask you if you still connected it to education, since that was a theme that you were developing in college. So, it seems like you do.
KR: Yes, definitely. And I think I'm still interested in eventually getting my Masters of Ed because I've, what I've observed in all of the different roles that I've had, even in a place like Starbucks where I worked, is that a lot of people don't know how to, when they're training somebody, teach them a process in a way that is, that is going to stick with them and then that they're able to absorb that information enough that then they can go and teach the next person. So basically, teaching as a skill. I think it is a hard skill and it's definitely a skill that you need to work on and learn and I think when people are in different managerial positions especially, they don't necessarily teach them that. And I like having that lens of education in all of my work that I've done, so I think about that a lot. I'm sorry, I think I lost my train of thought. What was the question?
DV: Oh, no. I was saying that--. Noticing that you still connect it to education in a way.
KR: Yes, I definitely do. I think it's important, and I want to continue. It's intentional on my part, at least, to continue that lens of education of treating it--. Any process that I do, whether that's speaking with a resident about the services that we offer or speaking with another town staff member, approaching it as: I want to give you this information so you can go and give it to somebody else in a digestible, easy way. So, I'm going to bring it down to brass tacks, be visual or auditory, whatever is the way that you best receive information. Knowing your audience, I guess.
DV: Considering all of these experiences since your last interview, since you were in college and through the experiences you've just shared with us, what were some of the main factors that you think helped you along the way? Whether abstract or, you’ve already mentioned some specific people that were important, factors that you think that have been important in your journey?
KR: Yeah, my family for sure. I mean, even though we don't necessarily--. I don't necessarily see eye-to-eye with them on a lot of our world views anymore. They're quite religious and I'm not. That religious upbringing really did give me a sense of what it means to take care of your community and to be a part of bringing justice to the world, I guess, in that sense. So, my sense of justice has always come from my family and my religious upbringing, even though I have implemented it, I guess, in a different way than they expected. Although they do really, really like what I do. They think it's really cool. But yeah, my family, for sure. Having people that look like me, just--. And it sounds weird saying it now, because again, it was one of those things I don't think I was conscious of when I was a kid, but my parents always made sure that, even though they didn't have a college degree, that we were interacting with other adults who did, or that were professionals in some way, and had, and were Latino or Latine people. And so that was really cool. Looking back on it now, I realized that was very intentional on my parents' part.
DV: They wanted you to see many different roles that someone like you could, spaces that you could fill?
KR: Yeah, and my mom's brothers, her half-brothers, they specifically were the ones that really introduced me to other professionals because my parents' network was small in the sense that a lot of their community and the people that they were close to, their loved ones, our chosen church family, a lot of them were similar to my parents. They were first-gen Americans, were also working-class, blue-collar jobs, and so my mom's half-brothers, both of them, had their Master's degrees. And so, the time that I got to spend with them, whether here or in New York, because that's where I lived, but so the time I got to spend with them either in New York or on the West Coast was a lot of them introducing me to their network and their friends, which were all professionals like them. And again, this is not something conscious that I realized at the time, but looking back on it now, it was like, yeah, I was able to meet that network of extended people that looked like me and that were professionals and gave me an idea of the different possibilities that I could have. Yeah, that was helpful for sure. That and now I guess more contemporary is just valuing and honoring my lived experience which I kind of spoke to earlier, but yeah. I don't know if I could make it more--. I think that's pretty much it, is just being very conscious of valuing and honoring my lived experience as important and as something that I can bring to the table as an asset, not just as something that's part of my, part of who I am, but something that I can share with other people too, professionally as--. In the professional space as well.
DV: What do you think is the meaning of leadership and what advice would you give to future Latine leaders?
KR: Yeah, that was a hard question, too. I think, though, that kind of the anecdote that I shared earlier, kind of still applies I think in this case. For me the best supervisors that I've had and the people that I've considered leaders are people that know how to share their power first and foremost, and also just know how to push their team to their best work but not in a way that's demanding or that's you know I guess kind of like a stick with a, you know, the sticker carrot method, I guess that's what I think of. But just in a way that's really genuine of believing, you know, this is what I know that you can do. And being genuinely enthusiastic about it and also being genuine about, you know, there's going to be times when this doesn't work and that's okay and we can start over or try something else, and I'll be supportive of that. Those environments for me have always felt like the leadership that I've been most attracted to and most admired when I've seen in other people and so that's something that I would like to have as my leadership style, too.
DV: Great, thank you. Alright, to conclude what are your hopes for the future? For your personal life or professional life, for your community?
KR: Yeah, for myself, I mean I do want to get my Master's in Ed and eventually I want to have kids, eventually. But I don't think that's--. I think it's one of many successes. I'd like to own a home sometime, eventually. My sister and I have talked about owning a duplex together, because we grew up in a duplex with my grandparents downstairs, so we'd like to own a duplex together, raise our kids together.
DV: That's so lovely.
KR: Yeah, yeah. We've got to figure out our--. Now that she's got her master's, now I've got to get my master's, and then we can start thinking about our next steps in the future. And then professionally, after I get my master's, I don't, I mean, I want to keep--. I mean, I think I can see myself continuing in local government to be honest, I really enjoyed it. And I can see myself progressing, you know, in a way that I hadn't been able to see before in my other roles, to be honest. Even becoming a director of a department would be--. I can see being really a cool job. But I'm also open to, you know, I don't want to put myself in a box too much, I guess, and I guess that's my future aspiration, is to continue to push myself a little bit. Because if I hadn't taken that time to push myself and try applying to this job with the town, I think I would have continued in nonprofit work. So, I guess that's my professional hope for the future, is not being stagnant, being willing to be a little bit uncomfortable. And for my community, I mean, I just--. I want to see more people just be taken care of, to be honest, if I could put it that concisely. And also, just more opportunities for civic engagement. I think now more than ever I'm realizing being civically engaged is so important. And I know, I've always heard that voting is important, being involved in your community is important, but being involved in what your local government is doing, going to the town council meetings if you can, and just knowing what's going on in your city is so important. Yeah, I mean, I just want to see people thrive, I guess. That's the long-winded way of saying it. I just want to see people thrive.
DV: That makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. Okay, thank you so much, Katelyn.
[END OF TRANSCRIPTION]
Transcribers: Sofia Godoy & Daniel Velásquez
Interview Date: 2023 May 30
Date of Transcription: 2023 August 7 / Revisions: 2023 October 17
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Title
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R-1008 -- Robalino, Katelyn.
Description
An account of the resource
Katelyn Robalino is a Community Connections Coordinator for the Affordable Housing and Community Connections Department at the Town of Chapel Hill. She was first interviewed by New Roots in 2013 when she was a sophomore at UNC-Chapel Hill; this 2023 interview is an update on her journey, the various professional roles she has held, and lessons learned along the way. Soon after graduation, she worked as a Bilingual Teaching Assistant at a Montessori school in Charlotte and subsequently moved to Louisville, KY, where she held two AmeriCorps VISTA appointments and was a staff member for local nonprofits focused on community education and advocacy. Katelyn shares reflections on many topics throughout her interview, including imposter syndrome and other challenges she has faced, her sense of purpose and justice, and her ideas about leadership and the sharing of power. Lastly, she emphasizes the value of lived experience as a professional asset, which she believes has helped her in her current role at the Town of Chapel Hill.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
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No restrictions. Open to research
Date
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2023-05-30
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29340">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
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R1008_Audio.mp3
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/edaf1e862d34e0973454251f0e7cbcc0.mp3
1a081b48119687c0bb09244d8256d927
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/3ad792ef06afe27070025b2533ba518f.pdf
8487ea7ebd626ed17843690798a45d6d
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-1004
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
Fecha
2021-08-04
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Mandujano Acevedo, Nicandro.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Health Service Workers
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1993
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Male
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Tarimoro -- Guanajuato -- Mexico
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Durham -- Durham County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-100.755190 20.292840),1;POINT(-78.898621 35.994034),2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Therber, Sophie.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
This interview was conducted by Sophie Therber with interviewee Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo via Microsoft Teams on August 4, 2021. The main focus of this interview is Nicandro’s involvement with the North Carolina Farmworker Health Program and his experience helping farmworkers mitigate the COVID pandemic. Nicandro emphasizes the need for improved communication with farmworkers in regards to COVID and other disasters, as well as the overall challenges of working with farmworkers in North Carolina. He explains the tension between the need to develop thoughtful emergency response plans and the unexpected, unplanned nature of emergencies. Despite the hardships of COVID, Nicandro explains that the pandemic created an opportunity for better communication between farmworker health sites, collaboration with other organizations, and communication between sites and farmworkers.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Nicandro Mandujano by Sophie Therber, 04 August 2021, R-1004, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29196
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
COVID-19; Agricultural workers; Health; Climate Change; Community and social services and programs
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Sophie Therber [00:00:01] Alright, my name is Sophie Therber. I'm interviewing Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo. Today is August 4th, 2021, and the time is 5:08pm. Nicandro, thank you so much for allowing me to interview.
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:00:12] Yeah, of course,
Sophie Therber [00:00:15] Just to start off, where are you from? And can you tell me a little bit about that area?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:00:19] Yeah, that's a complicated question, I guess. So, I am originally from Mexico. But my family migrated to Asheville, North Carolina in 2003. So I guess that's where I would consider my current home. So, yeah, tucked in the mountains of western North Carolina.
Sophie Therber [00:00:40] And how old were you when you moved to Asheville?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:00:43] Yeah, I was nine years old. So, I've spent, I guess, more than half my life now in the US.
Sophie Therber [00:00:52] And what was it like to arrive in North Carolina after being born in Mexico?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:00:57] Yeah, it was...yeah. It was weird because I think I was at that 4th, 5th [grade], transitioning into middle school-type personality, so of course I didn't want to leave my friends. But then, when I got here, I think definitely a culture shock, because there weren't that many other Latinos in the school system that I went into at that time. It increased over time. But at the beginning there weren't that many and everyone that was there was family friends, thankfully, or like family relatives. So in that sense, it was easy to transition, but still hard to adapt to a new system.
Sophie Therber [00:01:42] And what has made you decide to stay, continue living in North Carolina since then?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:01:47] Yeah. So I actually have not. I mean, I've stayed in North Carolina right now. I went for undergrad. I've only come back to live two years out of the five that I've been out. But what makes me go back to Asheville is probably family ties, honestly, more than anything, just because I'm interested in like migrant health and displacement. So Asheville doesn't really have that. It's not that big of a hub for that sort of work. So definitely what has brought me back is family ties.
Sophie Therber [00:02:26] So your family still lives in Asheville?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:02:28] Yep. Yeah, everyone in my family lives there, except now me and my brother. Yeah.
Sophie Therber [00:02:36] And how did you get started working with the Farmworker Health Program?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:02:40] Yeah. So, I got my MPH last year, so I graduated in 2020? Yeah, in 2020, yeah. And one of my friends throughout the program knew about the farmworker program and they had offered I think -- well, you'll interview Natalie tomorrow, but she forwarded me the position, for that position. And at that point I was like, "well I'm not sure if I'm going back to North Carolina," but I did some research and it seemed like it was a really interesting program. So then when I ultimately made the decision to come back to North Carolina, I checked it out and I was like, "well, let's see if they have any open positions available." And they did! So, I decided to apply. That's, like, the short version. But I guess traditionally why I'm interested is because my dad and most of his family, or brothers, siblings, were farm workers before the 2000s. Since we came, we haven't done farm working, but it was part of the farmers to use them, like the whole farmworker sector, agricultural sector, when he first came to the U.S. So that family history kind of also made me go. And then when we arrived to Asheville, we lived in a tobacco farm. So I was kind of familiar with it, even though we didn't really have as much exposure with it.
Sophie Therber [00:04:11] Where did you get your MPH, and what was it like to graduate in spring of 2020?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:04:16] Yeah, you said, where, right?
Sophie Therber [00:04:19] Yeah.
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:04:21] I got my MPH from the Brown School in Washington, in Washington University in St. Louis, which is a school of social work. It was originally social work, but now it houses the public health program and the public policy program as well. And what it was...It was really weird, graduating in 2020, just because we were doing public health and we're in a public health crisis. But it wasn't really...an emphasis in the program that I went because what I was primarily focused on was global health epi and bio sets, so like it was kind of whipped into, like, data and analysis type of portions, but with other global settings, I don't think it had gotten so out of proportion or like it hadn't had that big of an impact yet on the classes that I was taking. So it was weird because I feel like if we had been able to still be in classes in-person, it would have facilitated the conversations about the emergency response and what it was to be in a pandemic in public health classes. But because we were remote, most of the classes just remained the focus on what they were at the beginning. And it was weird because before, if something were to happen in the global setting, we would be able to discuss, like in the hallway. But because of remote learning, we didn't really have that opportunity. So I kind of feel like I missed out on that. But regardless, it was it was a good opportunity.
Sophie Therber [00:06:03] And how do you feel that having a background in public health influences your role at the North Carolina Farmworker Health Program?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:06:10] Yeah, so it's been really interesting because part of what I really enjoyed was the planning implementation, or the process of any programing. And so I think because we came and we're -- the COVID response team came in, fairly new into the program, trying to keep that aspect to making -- of course, we're in an emergency response, right? But to make sure that what we're doing has long-term effects for sustainability, like having to integrate a little bit more of that, well, let's try to plan or see what that will look like in the future. So it's really interesting, like thinking of that training being like "no, for every successful program you need to plan." But then with the emergency response being like "you're not really able to plan." I thought trying to combine both of those mentalities was really, really interesting and challenging, I will say. And it still continues to be challenging, right? Because I think there's two changes that are happening. But I think we adjusted well for the people that joined. We were very good. We made a good team.
Sophie Therber [00:07:20] Can you tell me more about the emergency response program and what that entails?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:07:25] Yeah. So from our side of the program, since we worked with farmworkers, it's mostly outbreak response with migrant camps, but at least that's the one that we're able to have a little bit more control over, because, of course, there's farmworkers that don't live in migrant camps. But for those that do, the outreach workers knew the guidance and what to do if there was an outbreak or a suspected case. Going through that was kind of challenging, right? Because part of the guidance says, "oh, you're not allowed to work in this settings," but the challenge is that the farm workers are here to work. So it was a little bit difficult to be like, "no, this is an emergency, so this is what should happen." And then the other thing, because the state was also developing new programming and better resources to make sure that the pandemic had as less of an effect as possible. Part of that response was also us being able to connect with other state entities and being able to bring those resources to the outreach clinics so they could provide them to the farm workers.
Sophie Therber [00:08:44] And were there any plans in place just based on what you and your organization had learned from prior disasters, or was everything just created in response to the pandemic specifically?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:08:56] Yeah, so I got to be honest, I don't know. I don't know what that response was, because when we came in, we were like “how do we treat the pandemic?” And so our team didn't really have time to look back into what previously was done. So didn't know of what was currently being done for the response for COVID. And so we kind of went with it and adapted it. But in terms of, like previous work, I'm not, I'm not completely sure.
Sophie Therber [00:09:27] Yeah, that's totally fine. But what was it like to join the team in the midst of the pandemic? So not even being able to see how things used to be, but just kind of joining throughout that?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:09:39] Yeah, it was honestly really challenging, hard at times, well, mostly hard at times. But I think part of the issue was because the program is small. Right. But it has to cover the whole state. And to begin with, like, all of the staff has all the rules. So they had to adapt a little bit and make sure that they were covering, now, COVID and then also covering everything else. That also is a full time job. So when we came in, we basically had to take over all of the COVID response and there was little time to be able to come together and make sure that we got back on our history. So, part of it was good because it gave us kind of freedom to be able to adapt as needed. But the challenging part was that both of us that came in into the program as a COVID response team had not been working in North Carolina or with the farmworker population. And so there were there was context that we didn't know and we weren't able to get from the team as easily as we probably would have. So there was a little bit challenging to get the context that was needed. Now, that was also a blessing in disguise, right? Because what that meant was that we could come to all agricultural partners and be like, "hey, we're the new team when you really don't know much, could you explain this to us?" And that helped us get that information and might have facilitated partnerships that we currently have at the moment.
Sophie Therber [00:11:27] Can you give me an example of something that the agricultural workers were able to contextualize for you?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:11:34] That agriculture workers were able to contextualize, yeah. I think to me in general, it's just how farmworker clinics work and the H-2A program. Because my family history doesn't really...they didn't come through H-2A. And so learning about the process to a worker and kind of what that looks, like what it means to apply for the visa and how much they have to pay to be able to get the visa, and like the trek to North Carolina when they come to a centralized location or they have to figure it out on their own. And then when they are here, kind of what that contract entails. Right. And there's a vast difference sometimes into what that looks like. And so seeing it play out in different fields, because from what I remember, it's like, OK, like I didn't think it was this difficult or this nuanced between labor contractors and growers. So that was one thing. The other part is I really didn't know a lot about how farmworker clinics worked and what services they were able to provide. So it was nice to hear from workers and just outreach workers, kind of what they had been doing for the past 20 years, that kind of helped me realize, okay, this is what it looks like to the farm worker, but this is what it looks like in terms of programing and being able to provide those services to facilitate access to health care. Of course, there's a long way to go, but I think it's just how the agricultural sector is, unfortunately.
Sophie Therber [00:13:18] So something that you were saying earlier is that your small program was suddenly tasked with helping issues throughout the entire state. Can you tell me a little bit more about that -- what that was like to have to be in charge of such an expansive variety of problems all over North Carolina?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:13:34] Yeah, so I will begin with...So, across the state, there's about twenty farmworker clinics. Right. But our program only funds nine. So historically, the relationship between those have always been strong. We provide technical support, really anything any type of support they need. Right. But there remain just eleven sites [that] we had really never had such a strong relationship [with] just because we weren't funding, so there's, like, a little bit less to leverage for those. So with the pandemic, because we are known as a farmworker program, and so then the state was like "Okay, so you're tasked with everything farmworker-related from our side," and what was difficult at the beginning was making sure in establishing those strong partnerships with the other clinics. So that was the challenge at the beginning. Now, I think the other part, as I said, was like knowing where our capacity went, where we could extend our capacity versus not, because we are a state program, but we kind of aren't. And that that's a little confusing to myself as well. But we definitely have leverage on our sites. But the other ones, they operate independently. And so even though we can provide guidance and protocols and do everything that is needed, ultimately, we wean ourselves off of the program to have the capacity to make sure that that is ensured. So that's when we would have to bring in DPH or the health department or any other partners that have a little bit more leverage with those clinics.
Sophie Therber [00:15:32] Wow, that sounds like a really interesting process to be not only having to adapt to new challenges, but also new farmworker clinics. Just a lot of kind of being piled on all at once. What was it like to have to create those relationships with clinics that you hadn't normally been working with?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:15:48] Yeah, well, the good thing is for us, it was something we had to create those partnerships with our funded sites a little bit easier. Right, because we could ask our coworkers and be like, "hey, can you just facilitate our introduction to those?" But for the others, it was three of us. And so with outbreaks and everyone needed response or means, it was kind of easy, right? Because they knew all of us, thankfully, or we made sure that they somehow knew of the program. And so when there was a need be the kind of knew who we were, so we would either contact them where they would contact us directly. So for better or worse, the pandemic kind of provided the perfect opportunity to be able to, I guess, start those partnerships anew or make them stronger than before. And as I said before, like, I think because we were new, we kind of play the naive role and was like, "we really don't know!" So we kind of want to understand a little bit further that we know how to support you. So it was it was kind of easy on our side. The difficult part is...because most of these clinics are understaffed or there's like only one or two in the program, but they cover multiple counties, the difficult part was being able to have the time to fully discuss and get to know to know each other. Right. Besides just a pandemic.
Sophie Therber [00:17:20] And in addition to the partnerships with the other clinics, were there any other partnerships with other stakeholders or any other actors that your organization made because of the pandemic?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:17:31] Yeah. So, again, I think not necessarily super new, but definitely adapted and became stronger. I think some of the stronger partners now were partners that we definitely depend on to be able to provide the response that is needed is the NC cooperative extension centers across the state or even just a centralized one; agromedicine, definitely important; and the Department of Labor, just because I'm trying to figure out housing in migrant camps, and trying to see how each of us can help. Because in fact, even though we're a farmworker program, we need to think about the whole agricultural community. I'm not sure what their relationship looked like before, and they had started to have meetings before we joined, but now I think it's like a well-oiled machine. Of course, there's new things that get thrown at us, but those are some of the few ones. CBOs [community-based organizations] that are not farmworker-specific but that we've had to come into relations to see [that] they've done previous work with the Latinx community that can include farmworkers.
Sophie Therber [00:18:53] And is there anything that your organization started to do because of the pandemic that you can see carrying over, even after the pandemic has subsided?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:19:03] Yeah, something definitely that has started because of the pandemic has been communication newsletters that were specifically first for just COVID and to our partners. And now that that has expanded to is like anyone that is interested in farmworkers, can they participate? So I think that's something that started because of the pandemic, and we're thinking of making it go farther, right? Because there's health departments that never knew about farmworkers or like other partners that we are working with that didn't really know. And so we're kind of thinking into how that can be transformed into us being able to rely on the farmworker training, the one about farmworker health, and that takes a little bit of the pressure off the clinics and they're able to focus to do more outreach and then we're able to educate the general public or just anyone interested in the farmworker community.
Sophie Therber [00:20:05] I'm kind of struck by just how many different layers of difficulties or challenges or have affected the farmworker community throughout the pandemic. If you had to just choose what, choose one or two, what do you think are the most important challenges that are being faced?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:20:23] I think that those answers would have changed depending on the time period. Right at the moment, what I think is probably the most challenging if the new COVID variant, especially with the current movement, because now what we're seeing a lot is farmworkers arriving from Mexico, workers moving from east to west within the state, or workers moving from Florida and Georgia to this state, and with the new variant and with a mixture of vaccination versus unvaccination, that has increased the propensity to have outbreaks. So I think that's one of the major challenges. But probably why I see it this way is because I'm trying to help with that response. Now, in general, I would say that part of the big issues are like transportation purposes, whether that means to be able to go to get health care or just really any sort of transportation issues with that. And then education. Because as the state, we're not able to provide for them or develop some of the specific materials. And the state in general has limitations in the types of communication that are released. So to meet those, those would be challenges. But of course, again, those are probably because I'm in the deep on that, if you asked other people from my team, they would probably have different answers. But to me, those are probably the key ones at the moment.
Sophie Therber [00:22:10] I want to clarify something that you said. Did you say that right now there are workers moving from eastern North Carolina to western North Carolina or just east to west throughout the whole country?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:22:20] Sorry. Yeah, within North Carolina.
Sophie Therber [00:22:22] Oh, okay.
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:22:22] Of course, I'm assuming that there's probably going to be some movement between the states, but not to say that there won't be movement within like eastern North Carolina to eastern North Carolina, but because of how the systems work, the crops that are at the moment being harvested or [were] when the farm workers first came, they were in eastern North Carolina. But because now we're moving into fall/winter, the crops that need to be harvested or planted are in the westernmost counties. So that's why that movement is happening.
Sophie Therber [00:23:00] Okay, thank you for clarifying that. That makes sense. And that's kind of something that seems so clear, that with the seasons changing, there are different patterns of movement, but kind of overlooked at the same time. I mean, I personally had not thought of that. So that's interesting to think about.
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:23:14] Same. Yeah, something new that we also didn't know. Right, until we kept seeing like outbreaks happening. And we were like, "wait, why is this happening if they had been here before?"
Sophie Therber [00:23:26] And how would you say that the challenges to the farm workers have evolved throughout the course of the pandemic? I mean, from when you started earlier in 2020 versus now when the vaccines are available, but the Delta variant is also occurring.
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:23:40] Yeah. So, at the beginning, one of the major concerns was the testing. And being able to provide testing to the workers because that was the primary prevention measure that we had. Not to say that social distancing and, like, the three Ws weren't consistent, but it's just harder if you live in a migrant camp to be able to do that. So, like, testing was one of the priorities for us throughout the first, I guess, last year until December. Now, with the vaccine at the beginning, it was, like, how do farmworkers get the vaccine? And so the challenge that was like, okay, first meeting to educate the farm workers and be like, so this is the vaccine and this is how we went about trying to get ahead of hesitancy and of what threw a wrench into that was, I think, the whole policy would change, like more side effects would change, breakthrough cases, things like that. But I guess between January to March, that was like our concern, like how do we prepare the farm workers for when the vaccine, they're eligible for the vaccine, how to do it. And then after that, it was like, okay, now that they're eligible for the vaccine, how can we ensure that they have access to the vaccine? And so that's when the whole local team initiative kind of came into play [and] that DPH was developed with our directors. And so then it was like, OK, once we have that, how do we as a program ensure that the team has the support they need to be able to either bring the vaccines to the camps or be able to transport the workers to get the vaccine? And that kind of what we're seeing is that there is still hesitancy, right? But with arriving workers it's like, how do you...not convince, but educate and want to make the decision to get vaccinated and how and where can they do it? Because what we're seeing is now health departments or clinics have decreased their funding or don't have the funding no longer available to have enough manpower. So like, their manpower has decreased to be able to do what was [...] at the beginning when the vaccine was made available to go to camps, to host events later at night when the farm workers are out. So we're seeing more of those challenges now. So, yeah, I don't know if that that's a clear answer, or if it just complicates things.
Sophie Therber [00:26:27] No, that's definitely a clear answer. It sounds like there's been a lot of just change in the priorities. I mean, when this was first going on, the need for testing, especially for farm workers, who can't social distance or stay isolated for a long time, is really important. And now the vaccine being available is a really great thing. But it does present a lot of other difficulties in just preparing the farm workers, as you were saying, and just making sure that it's accessible to them.
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:26:52] Yeah. Housing isolation for the farm workers have has been challenging. Both of the growers are able to provide isolation in housing, right? But I think in general, every population in this, across the US has struggled with being able to have safe quarantine and isolation housing, especially with communities that typically live with more than just nuclear family, right? Yeah.
Sophie Therber [00:27:27] So aside from the changing challenges and changing priorities for meeting the needs of the farmworker communities, how has your role specifically evolved since you arrived at the farmworker health program in earlier 2020?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:27:42] Yeah. So how it started, I was tasked mostly with communications. And at that moment it was only COVID, and it still is only COVID. But the program didn't have a communication specialist. So when I first started I was kind of tasked with everything that communication tools like developing new things, like finding things that we could use and/or newsletters, things like that. Simultaneously to when that was happening, we, I guess, I started kind of keeping track or helping our data specialists keep track of outbreak, not know what the response would entail, but definitely doing that, I guess kind of what contact tracing would have been to make sure that we had the details of outbreaks. And then one of my team members would coordinate the response and be like, "okay, this is the guidance, it's what you need to do." And then we got a communications specialist. And now I work more closely with her. And she's able to support most of the efforts. And now I've kind of digressed a little bit from communications, and she and she has been able to take the lead now with outbreak. Unfortunately, my team member was no longer with us. And so instead of just being in contact, sharing the information, I needed to coordinate outbreak response with that. And that was last year. At the beginning of this year, it was like trying to figure out the whole vaccination strategy and where I would fit in. And so with that, now, everyone from our team is kind of like the support for the next number of local county teams that focus on farmworker vaccination. And so now that's like part of my primary focus. And what that means, being able to get...records requests so that we know where farmworkers are going each month.
Sophie Therber [00:29:57] And how did those record requests work? Who has those records that you're getting them from?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:30:03] Yeah, so we get them from the Department of Commerce. I forget the full title, but there's a special division that works on processing H-2A visas, which are all agricultural, and then there's some H-2B visas that are part of the agricultural community.
Sophie Therber [00:30:25] Can you just briefly explain what the H-2A and H-2B visas are?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:30:30] Yeah. So H-2A visas are specific to agriculture. So anyone that comes through an H-2A to a visa, it has to be an agricultural worker. Right. And I don't know the full history of when those started, but that's what H-2A is now. With H-2B, I'm a little bit less familiar because the only ones that kind of are covered under, like, farmworker clinics are those that come into nurseries ore live in migrant camps, which are typically those in seafood processing. But H-2B visas are also temporary visas, just like H-2A. But most of them are in any service or critical infrastructure sectors. So a large number of H-2B recipients come for landscaping or construction or hotel-type work. And so there's not that many that come through through the H-2B side that are, or would be, considered farm workers, which is also a weird definition that I'm not completely sure [of].
Sophie Therber [00:31:46] OK, that makes sense. Thank you for explaining those. I want to go back to what you were saying about how you part of your job was contract the contact tracing for the farm workers. What was the process like of contact tracing for farm workers who don't, as you were saying, live just in traditional nuclear families? How did that work?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:32:07] Yeah, so most of what that contact tracing was and is, is if they go through the main H-2A contractor of the state. Because we know that everyone that comes through them has to go, come together each week or whatever. And so one with contact tracing was getting the details of when did the worker arrive? How many people live in the camp that would have become exposed? Date of symptom onset? And things like that, like the regular data gathering. And then once that information was given to the health department or the DPH, we would see if the symptoms onset and the date of arrival kind of coincided. And if so, we would ask for a list of workers that arrived or had contact with them during their trek to their grower or camp. And from there, we would share that information. I mean, there were instances that were needed-- most of them have been before my time. So for me, while I was here, it was mostly like the data gathering side of contact tracing.
Sophie Therber [00:33:32] I want to switch gears and just ask about in general, so you've lived in Asheville for a large portion of your life, and have there been any other -- have you had any other experience with any kind of disaster, whether it's a natural disaster or any other kind of disaster in Asheville before the pandemic?
[Internet connection problems]
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:34:01] Hi, Sophie.
Sophie Therber [00:34:02] Hey!
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:34:02] I don't know if it's my connection or yours. I couldn't hear.
Sophie Therber [00:34:07] Yeah, sorry about that. I'm not sure if it would be helpful. We can turn off our videos in case. Otherwise we can try again. Either way is fine.
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:34:16] I'll turn off my camera then.
Sophie Therber [00:34:19] Okay, I can turn mine off, too, just in case it helps. My question was, just since you've lived in Asheville for a large portion of your life, have you witnessed any other disaster, whether it's a natural disaster or any other kind of disaster that has affected you or your community there before the pandemic?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:34:38] Oh, yeah. Well, what I remember most would be like hurricanes, right? And I think that's common throughout, like most of North Carolina. I don't think Asheville has been hit with a lot of hurricanes or bad hurricanes as recently as the eastern part of the state. But what I remember would be like the hurricanes. And one, for us being school age, not being able to go to school, but like for my parents and others, it's like being [un]able to go to work because of road blocks or flooding, things like that, or like some of -- most of -- my family works on the fields, whether that's like construction or like yard work or are still farm workers. That would affect their income. Our family or my parents were mostly affected by like transportation issues and roadblocks to because of hurricane season.
Sophie Therber [00:35:44] And it sounds like the challenges of the hurricane season, especially since you were in Asheville instead of an eastern North Carolina, have been pretty different from the challenges of the pandemic. But are there any ways that they that you've experienced any similarities between those?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:36:00] Yeah, to be honest, is probably communications. Right. And part of it is because I think most counties don't really have a strong, like Spanish language communication or like emergency communication system. And so part of it has been that like even with it now and before, now we're struggling and relying on CBOs [community-based organizations] or other partners to be able to provide like Spanish, or any language, really, support communications in terms of like this is what you need to do, this is what you need to know. That has improved a little, but with hurricanes, it was also the same. Knowing, well, it's supposed to be hit here or there like these are the resources that you have in case you experience XYZ. So I think that's a challenge that was before. And it's still happening with this pandemic.
Sophie Therber [00:37:06] And how, how do you feel that the farmworker health program, I mean, of course, a big part of that program is having resources available in Spanish, but how specifically do you feel like they've addressed that issue of the communication?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:37:19] Yeah, so most of it, most of how that has been solved is through the newsletter and us making sure that the people that interact with the farmworkers have the latest information. Right. So that's one of the ways that that has been solved. Now, part of it tied to that is now we're able -- we have a little bit more leverage in asking the state and be like, "hey, this type of communication is needed. Can you either help us develop or can you develop it and make sure that it's there now?" I think it's a little bit easier with everyone being connected to the Internet because there's a lot of groups that are trying to work in ensuring that the Latinx community or any other HMP [historically marginalized population] community has access to this information in the best way for them. And so, like for us, it's been like looking into what AMEXCAN is doing in Latin-19 in the Research Triangle or like in the Western counties, kind of what coalitions are doing. And so it's been that combination of us looking into what CBOs are doing and how we can support or tag-team with them, but also making sure that the state is aware of the challenges that we're hearing and develops things that would be appropriate.
Sophie Therber [00:38:43] And when you are -- you and your organization are -- bringing concerns like that to the state, so concerns about communication or other concerns and addressing farmworker health, do you feel that the state has been receptive to those kinds of concerns?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:38:56] Yeah, I think for the most part, yes. Right. Or when where they can, they are. It's, I guess I don't really fully yet understand how the whole state processes work, because I'm a little bit...detached. Not detached, but I'm, I guess, on the forefront instead of in the fully administrative roles. So from what we hear, they've been really receptive to listening and trying to see what can come up or solutions that can be made. But the difficulty part is then making those solutions available or developing those solutions. But in terms of sharing and looking into the concerns, I think they've been receptive.
Sophie Therber [00:39:54] And you mentioned partnerships with coalitions such as AMEXCAN and other organizations. What do you feel that you and your organization have learned from those partnerships?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:40:05] Yeah, so part of it and, well, I guess most of what we've learned from them, it's kind of like, I guess, the intersection between farmworker's and regular Latinx community, so mostly those seasonal families. And so that's one thing. But also part of it is like...they're letting us know, kind of, the challenges that the community in general is facing with the pandemic that kind of...not complements, but is congruent to what we're seeing from the outreach workers. So that makes it a little bit easier for us to be able to be like, "look, this challenge just not only faced by farmworkers, but the Latinx community in general or any other HMP in general." And so that makes it for us to be able to have a collided front in making sure that we can push the envelope as needed. So that, I would say, being able to get a greater picture of just not farmworkers or migrant farm workers, but seasonal families as well has been the greatest strength with those.
Sophie Therber [00:41:16] That's interesting, what you're saying about having partnerships with these organizations, just being able to shed more light on the similarities or differences between the ways that farm workers are dealing with this pandemic versus the way that other members of the Latinx community, or just migrant communities in general, are dealing with a pandemic. So that's really interesting to be able to have that kind of partnership and learn that.
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:41:38] Yeah. Yeah, it's been really good for us. Unfortunately, sometimes it feels very one sided because we're able to learn and try to make sure that that doesn't happen or mitigate any of those needs. But that may or may not happen.
Sophie Therber [00:41:57] Right. If you could -- you and your organization, if you have any supports available to you or resources, what would that look like? What supports or resources would you want to have to be able to address farmworker health?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:42:13] Oh, God, yeah. Well, let me let me think about that.
Sophie Therber [00:42:22] Yeah, take your time.
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:42:29] I mean, I guess...Part of it is just being able to hire more people so that the outreach clinics have enough capacity to to not get burnt out, to have the support needed, to be able to do outreach to all the camps in all of their counties. So I think we're getting more funding for staffing and promoting more staffing would be greatly beneficial. Also [these] positions, the outreach clinics have a lot of turnover. Part of it is because there's really not much farther that they can go up the ladder. So it's not like it has a lot of professional development aspect to it. And then the, like...I mean, to be honest, I think it's a service, they're service provider. And unfortunately, we all know that they should be getting paid more. So would I want that? Yes! I don't know how that whole system works, but to me, it's like something that our program could in theory try to to see. Unfortunately, we don't really control how much they're paid. So that that's the other challenge.
Sophie Therber [00:43:56] And what is your relationship? Between your position, what you're doing, and the outreach workers; do you interact with them directly?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:44:05] Yeah, we do. Or I do. Sorry, I was speaking as "we" because, yeah, we're just a team. But yes, we interact directly with the outreach workers. Now, again, it's been mostly like through calls, or like video chats, because we, in theory, can't support on the field.
[Internet is buffering]
Sophie Therber [00:44:38] Are you there? I think you might have cut out for a second.
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:44:41] Oh, I am here.
Sophie Therber [00:44:42] Okay, cool.
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:44:42] Yeah.
Sophie Therber [00:44:44] I think that I caught most of your answer anyway.
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:44:46] Oh, okay
Sophie Therber [00:44:46] So it sounds like you do you have a direct relationship with the outreach workers, even though just because of the challenges of the pandemic, that often means phone calls and Zoom and things like that?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:44:58] Yep.
Sophie Therber [00:44:58] So, it sounds like, from your response, that the main supports that you and your organization would want to have more of are the outreach workers. And what exactly are the outreach workers doing? So, what are their jobs with the farmworker health program?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:45:15] Yeah, so this is this is part of the challenge that I was mentioning right before. So the the program funds, or provides funds to FQHCs [federally qualified health centers], NGOs [nongovernmental organizations], local health departments to have a farmworker unit. And so they're the ultimate -- the individual organization is ultimately the ones who decides who to hire, when to hire, things like that. So what the outreach worker does or is supposed to be doing is provide enabling services. And so, enabling services are a wide variety of services. And basically what they need to do is ensure that the farm workers can have access to health care. A lot of what that means is like interpretation, translation services, transporting to clinics, making appointments, things like that. And so what their responsibility then is, to all this, is just to communicate with us if they need any support, but also any of the data to make sure that they're providing those enabling services. So that's kind of the extent of what the outreach responsibility was for us. Or with, to us, as far as I understand.
Sophie Therber [00:46:41] And that's certainly so important to your organization. And I think that the phrasing it as "enabling services" is kind of helpful for me to conceptualize what exactly their role is with you. So, that makes sense. Well, is there anything else that you would like to add before I stop recording?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:47:01] Ah, no. Well, it's tricky, right? I think for the most part, we've played our cards, or with the cards that we're dealt with; unfortunately, I don't think they've been enough, right? And so part of the challenge that our program is looking into is how can we strategically think of what has worked and not worked and to ensure that we have the support system now with the pandemic, but how can we make sure that this continues further outside of this emergency, that we can be adapted if there's ever another emergency or just in general? We like to make sure that we provide this level of support to workers. So no, besides that, I don't think I have much to add. The only thing, I guess, to make sure that I have voice is most of what we're doing or that we work as a team, as the COVID response team is because of the outreach workers, because they're the ones who do the work. And we're just kind of like the messenger between them and any state entity or any resources that are available.
Sophie Therber [00:48:16] And how do you see the partnerships that you've built throughout the pandemic continuing even after the pandemic has hopefully subsided?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:48:25] Yeah, I mean, part of what we're seeing is that a lot of the new partnerships are like, "oh, we never...we were aware of the farmworker community, but we never really had the chance to interact with them the most." And so what we're seeing is that they're like, "oh, like, how can we support further, besides just COVID?" And so that, that gives me hope that we can serve better. Right. And it also has shed light into more systematic, I guess, concerns or things that need to change. And so that's been good, that other entities are also saying that and thinking about how those things can change. So no concrete answers, I guess, unfortunately. But at least in terms of thinking and rationalizing that, that's been helpful in looking at how people are positive and to how these relationships can continue across or after the epidemic.
Sophie Therber [00:49:28] Great. Well, thank you so much for your time. I'm going to go ahead and stop the recording in just a moment.
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:49:32] Okay.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Trabajadores de servicios de salud
Es: Género de entrevistado
Hombre
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Esta entrevista fue realizada por Sophie Therber con el entrevistado Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo vía Microsoft Teams el 4 de agosto de 2021. La entrevista se enfoca principalmente en la participación de Nicandro con el Programa de Salud de Trabajadores Agrícolas de Carolina del Norte y su experiencia ayudando a los trabajadores agrícolas para mitigar la pandemia del COVID. Nicandro enfatiza en la necesidad de mejorar la comunicación con los trabajadores agrícolas en cuanto al COVID y otros desastres, así como los desafíos generales de laborar con trabajadores agrícolas en Carolina del Norte. Él explica la tensión entre la necesidad de desarrollar planes de emergencia conscientes de respuesta y la naturaleza inesperada y no planeada de las emergencias. A pesar de las dificultades debidas al COVID, Nicandro explica que la pandemia generó la posibilidad de mejorar la comunicación entre los sitios de salud de los trabajadores agrícolas, la colaboración con otras organizaciones y la comunicación entre los sitios y los trabajadores agrícolas.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Nicandro Mandujano por Sophie Therber, 04 August 2021, R-1004, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
COVID-19; Trabajadores agrícolas; Salud; cambio climático; Programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios
Es: Transcripción
Sophie Therber [00:00:01] Alright, my name is Sophie Therber. I'm interviewing Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo. Today is August 4th, 2021, and the time is 5:08pm. Nicandro, thank you so much for allowing me to interview.
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:00:12] Yeah, of course,
Sophie Therber [00:00:15] Just to start off, where are you from? And can you tell me a little bit about that area?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:00:19] Yeah, that's a complicated question, I guess. So, I am originally from Mexico. But my family migrated to Asheville, North Carolina in 2003. So I guess that's where I would consider my current home. So, yeah, tucked in the mountains of western North Carolina.
Sophie Therber [00:00:40] And how old were you when you moved to Asheville?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:00:43] Yeah, I was nine years old. So, I've spent, I guess, more than half my life now in the US.
Sophie Therber [00:00:52] And what was it like to arrive in North Carolina after being born in Mexico?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:00:57] Yeah, it was...yeah. It was weird because I think I was at that 4th, 5th [grade], transitioning into middle school-type personality, so of course I didn't want to leave my friends. But then, when I got here, I think definitely a culture shock, because there weren't that many other Latinos in the school system that I went into at that time. It increased over time. But at the beginning there weren't that many and everyone that was there was family friends, thankfully, or like family relatives. So in that sense, it was easy to transition, but still hard to adapt to a new system.
Sophie Therber [00:01:42] And what has made you decide to stay, continue living in North Carolina since then?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:01:47] Yeah. So I actually have not. I mean, I've stayed in North Carolina right now. I went for undergrad. I've only come back to live two years out of the five that I've been out. But what makes me go back to Asheville is probably family ties, honestly, more than anything, just because I'm interested in like migrant health and displacement. So Asheville doesn't really have that. It's not that big of a hub for that sort of work. So definitely what has brought me back is family ties.
Sophie Therber [00:02:26] So your family still lives in Asheville?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:02:28] Yep. Yeah, everyone in my family lives there, except now me and my brother. Yeah.
Sophie Therber [00:02:36] And how did you get started working with the Farmworker Health Program?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:02:40] Yeah. So, I got my MPH last year, so I graduated in 2020? Yeah, in 2020, yeah. And one of my friends throughout the program knew about the farmworker program and they had offered I think -- well, you'll interview Natalie tomorrow, but she forwarded me the position, for that position. And at that point I was like, "well I'm not sure if I'm going back to North Carolina," but I did some research and it seemed like it was a really interesting program. So then when I ultimately made the decision to come back to North Carolina, I checked it out and I was like, "well, let's see if they have any open positions available." And they did! So, I decided to apply. That's, like, the short version. But I guess traditionally why I'm interested is because my dad and most of his family, or brothers, siblings, were farm workers before the 2000s. Since we came, we haven't done farm working, but it was part of the farmers to use them, like the whole farmworker sector, agricultural sector, when he first came to the U.S. So that family history kind of also made me go. And then when we arrived to Asheville, we lived in a tobacco farm. So I was kind of familiar with it, even though we didn't really have as much exposure with it.
Sophie Therber [00:04:11] Where did you get your MPH, and what was it like to graduate in spring of 2020?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:04:16] Yeah, you said, where, right?
Sophie Therber [00:04:19] Yeah.
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:04:21] I got my MPH from the Brown School in Washington, in Washington University in St. Louis, which is a school of social work. It was originally social work, but now it houses the public health program and the public policy program as well. And what it was...It was really weird, graduating in 2020, just because we were doing public health and we're in a public health crisis. But it wasn't really...an emphasis in the program that I went because what I was primarily focused on was global health epi and bio sets, so like it was kind of whipped into, like, data and analysis type of portions, but with other global settings, I don't think it had gotten so out of proportion or like it hadn't had that big of an impact yet on the classes that I was taking. So it was weird because I feel like if we had been able to still be in classes in-person, it would have facilitated the conversations about the emergency response and what it was to be in a pandemic in public health classes. But because we were remote, most of the classes just remained the focus on what they were at the beginning. And it was weird because before, if something were to happen in the global setting, we would be able to discuss, like in the hallway. But because of remote learning, we didn't really have that opportunity. So I kind of feel like I missed out on that. But regardless, it was it was a good opportunity.
Sophie Therber [00:06:03] And how do you feel that having a background in public health influences your role at the North Carolina Farmworker Health Program?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:06:10] Yeah, so it's been really interesting because part of what I really enjoyed was the planning implementation, or the process of any programing. And so I think because we came and we're -- the COVID response team came in, fairly new into the program, trying to keep that aspect to making -- of course, we're in an emergency response, right? But to make sure that what we're doing has long-term effects for sustainability, like having to integrate a little bit more of that, well, let's try to plan or see what that will look like in the future. So it's really interesting, like thinking of that training being like "no, for every successful program you need to plan." But then with the emergency response being like "you're not really able to plan." I thought trying to combine both of those mentalities was really, really interesting and challenging, I will say. And it still continues to be challenging, right? Because I think there's two changes that are happening. But I think we adjusted well for the people that joined. We were very good. We made a good team.
Sophie Therber [00:07:20] Can you tell me more about the emergency response program and what that entails?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:07:25] Yeah. So from our side of the program, since we worked with farmworkers, it's mostly outbreak response with migrant camps, but at least that's the one that we're able to have a little bit more control over, because, of course, there's farmworkers that don't live in migrant camps. But for those that do, the outreach workers knew the guidance and what to do if there was an outbreak or a suspected case. Going through that was kind of challenging, right? Because part of the guidance says, "oh, you're not allowed to work in this settings," but the challenge is that the farm workers are here to work. So it was a little bit difficult to be like, "no, this is an emergency, so this is what should happen." And then the other thing, because the state was also developing new programming and better resources to make sure that the pandemic had as less of an effect as possible. Part of that response was also us being able to connect with other state entities and being able to bring those resources to the outreach clinics so they could provide them to the farm workers.
Sophie Therber [00:08:44] And were there any plans in place just based on what you and your organization had learned from prior disasters, or was everything just created in response to the pandemic specifically?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:08:56] Yeah, so I got to be honest, I don't know. I don't know what that response was, because when we came in, we were like “how do we treat the pandemic?” And so our team didn't really have time to look back into what previously was done. So didn't know of what was currently being done for the response for COVID. And so we kind of went with it and adapted it. But in terms of, like previous work, I'm not, I'm not completely sure.
Sophie Therber [00:09:27] Yeah, that's totally fine. But what was it like to join the team in the midst of the pandemic? So not even being able to see how things used to be, but just kind of joining throughout that?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:09:39] Yeah, it was honestly really challenging, hard at times, well, mostly hard at times. But I think part of the issue was because the program is small. Right. But it has to cover the whole state. And to begin with, like, all of the staff has all the rules. So they had to adapt a little bit and make sure that they were covering, now, COVID and then also covering everything else. That also is a full time job. So when we came in, we basically had to take over all of the COVID response and there was little time to be able to come together and make sure that we got back on our history. So, part of it was good because it gave us kind of freedom to be able to adapt as needed. But the challenging part was that both of us that came in into the program as a COVID response team had not been working in North Carolina or with the farmworker population. And so there were there was context that we didn't know and we weren't able to get from the team as easily as we probably would have. So there was a little bit challenging to get the context that was needed. Now, that was also a blessing in disguise, right? Because what that meant was that we could come to all agricultural partners and be like, "hey, we're the new team when you really don't know much, could you explain this to us?" And that helped us get that information and might have facilitated partnerships that we currently have at the moment.
Sophie Therber [00:11:27] Can you give me an example of something that the agricultural workers were able to contextualize for you?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:11:34] That agriculture workers were able to contextualize, yeah. I think to me in general, it's just how farmworker clinics work and the H-2A program. Because my family history doesn't really...they didn't come through H-2A. And so learning about the process to a worker and kind of what that looks, like what it means to apply for the visa and how much they have to pay to be able to get the visa, and like the trek to North Carolina when they come to a centralized location or they have to figure it out on their own. And then when they are here, kind of what that contract entails. Right. And there's a vast difference sometimes into what that looks like. And so seeing it play out in different fields, because from what I remember, it's like, OK, like I didn't think it was this difficult or this nuanced between labor contractors and growers. So that was one thing. The other part is I really didn't know a lot about how farmworker clinics worked and what services they were able to provide. So it was nice to hear from workers and just outreach workers, kind of what they had been doing for the past 20 years, that kind of helped me realize, okay, this is what it looks like to the farm worker, but this is what it looks like in terms of programing and being able to provide those services to facilitate access to health care. Of course, there's a long way to go, but I think it's just how the agricultural sector is, unfortunately.
Sophie Therber [00:13:18] So something that you were saying earlier is that your small program was suddenly tasked with helping issues throughout the entire state. Can you tell me a little bit more about that -- what that was like to have to be in charge of such an expansive variety of problems all over North Carolina?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:13:34] Yeah, so I will begin with...So, across the state, there's about twenty farmworker clinics. Right. But our program only funds nine. So historically, the relationship between those have always been strong. We provide technical support, really anything any type of support they need. Right. But there remain just eleven sites [that] we had really never had such a strong relationship [with] just because we weren't funding, so there's, like, a little bit less to leverage for those. So with the pandemic, because we are known as a farmworker program, and so then the state was like "Okay, so you're tasked with everything farmworker-related from our side," and what was difficult at the beginning was making sure in establishing those strong partnerships with the other clinics. So that was the challenge at the beginning. Now, I think the other part, as I said, was like knowing where our capacity went, where we could extend our capacity versus not, because we are a state program, but we kind of aren't. And that that's a little confusing to myself as well. But we definitely have leverage on our sites. But the other ones, they operate independently. And so even though we can provide guidance and protocols and do everything that is needed, ultimately, we wean ourselves off of the program to have the capacity to make sure that that is ensured. So that's when we would have to bring in DPH or the health department or any other partners that have a little bit more leverage with those clinics.
Sophie Therber [00:15:32] Wow, that sounds like a really interesting process to be not only having to adapt to new challenges, but also new farmworker clinics. Just a lot of kind of being piled on all at once. What was it like to have to create those relationships with clinics that you hadn't normally been working with?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:15:48] Yeah, well, the good thing is for us, it was something we had to create those partnerships with our funded sites a little bit easier. Right, because we could ask our coworkers and be like, "hey, can you just facilitate our introduction to those?" But for the others, it was three of us. And so with outbreaks and everyone needed response or means, it was kind of easy, right? Because they knew all of us, thankfully, or we made sure that they somehow knew of the program. And so when there was a need be the kind of knew who we were, so we would either contact them where they would contact us directly. So for better or worse, the pandemic kind of provided the perfect opportunity to be able to, I guess, start those partnerships anew or make them stronger than before. And as I said before, like, I think because we were new, we kind of play the naive role and was like, "we really don't know!" So we kind of want to understand a little bit further that we know how to support you. So it was it was kind of easy on our side. The difficult part is...because most of these clinics are understaffed or there's like only one or two in the program, but they cover multiple counties, the difficult part was being able to have the time to fully discuss and get to know to know each other. Right. Besides just a pandemic.
Sophie Therber [00:17:20] And in addition to the partnerships with the other clinics, were there any other partnerships with other stakeholders or any other actors that your organization made because of the pandemic?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:17:31] Yeah. So, again, I think not necessarily super new, but definitely adapted and became stronger. I think some of the stronger partners now were partners that we definitely depend on to be able to provide the response that is needed is the NC cooperative extension centers across the state or even just a centralized one; agromedicine, definitely important; and the Department of Labor, just because I'm trying to figure out housing in migrant camps, and trying to see how each of us can help. Because in fact, even though we're a farmworker program, we need to think about the whole agricultural community. I'm not sure what their relationship looked like before, and they had started to have meetings before we joined, but now I think it's like a well-oiled machine. Of course, there's new things that get thrown at us, but those are some of the few ones. CBOs [community-based organizations] that are not farmworker-specific but that we've had to come into relations to see [that] they've done previous work with the Latinx community that can include farmworkers.
Sophie Therber [00:18:53] And is there anything that your organization started to do because of the pandemic that you can see carrying over, even after the pandemic has subsided?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:19:03] Yeah, something definitely that has started because of the pandemic has been communication newsletters that were specifically first for just COVID and to our partners. And now that that has expanded to is like anyone that is interested in farmworkers, can they participate? So I think that's something that started because of the pandemic, and we're thinking of making it go farther, right? Because there's health departments that never knew about farmworkers or like other partners that we are working with that didn't really know. And so we're kind of thinking into how that can be transformed into us being able to rely on the farmworker training, the one about farmworker health, and that takes a little bit of the pressure off the clinics and they're able to focus to do more outreach and then we're able to educate the general public or just anyone interested in the farmworker community.
Sophie Therber [00:20:05] I'm kind of struck by just how many different layers of difficulties or challenges or have affected the farmworker community throughout the pandemic. If you had to just choose what, choose one or two, what do you think are the most important challenges that are being faced?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:20:23] I think that those answers would have changed depending on the time period. Right at the moment, what I think is probably the most challenging if the new COVID variant, especially with the current movement, because now what we're seeing a lot is farmworkers arriving from Mexico, workers moving from east to west within the state, or workers moving from Florida and Georgia to this state, and with the new variant and with a mixture of vaccination versus unvaccination, that has increased the propensity to have outbreaks. So I think that's one of the major challenges. But probably why I see it this way is because I'm trying to help with that response. Now, in general, I would say that part of the big issues are like transportation purposes, whether that means to be able to go to get health care or just really any sort of transportation issues with that. And then education. Because as the state, we're not able to provide for them or develop some of the specific materials. And the state in general has limitations in the types of communication that are released. So to meet those, those would be challenges. But of course, again, those are probably because I'm in the deep on that, if you asked other people from my team, they would probably have different answers. But to me, those are probably the key ones at the moment.
Sophie Therber [00:22:10] I want to clarify something that you said. Did you say that right now there are workers moving from eastern North Carolina to western North Carolina or just east to west throughout the whole country?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:22:20] Sorry. Yeah, within North Carolina.
Sophie Therber [00:22:22] Oh, okay.
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:22:22] Of course, I'm assuming that there's probably going to be some movement between the states, but not to say that there won't be movement within like eastern North Carolina to eastern North Carolina, but because of how the systems work, the crops that are at the moment being harvested or [were] when the farm workers first came, they were in eastern North Carolina. But because now we're moving into fall/winter, the crops that need to be harvested or planted are in the westernmost counties. So that's why that movement is happening.
Sophie Therber [00:23:00] Okay, thank you for clarifying that. That makes sense. And that's kind of something that seems so clear, that with the seasons changing, there are different patterns of movement, but kind of overlooked at the same time. I mean, I personally had not thought of that. So that's interesting to think about.
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:23:14] Same. Yeah, something new that we also didn't know. Right, until we kept seeing like outbreaks happening. And we were like, "wait, why is this happening if they had been here before?"
Sophie Therber [00:23:26] And how would you say that the challenges to the farm workers have evolved throughout the course of the pandemic? I mean, from when you started earlier in 2020 versus now when the vaccines are available, but the Delta variant is also occurring.
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:23:40] Yeah. So, at the beginning, one of the major concerns was the testing. And being able to provide testing to the workers because that was the primary prevention measure that we had. Not to say that social distancing and, like, the three Ws weren't consistent, but it's just harder if you live in a migrant camp to be able to do that. So, like, testing was one of the priorities for us throughout the first, I guess, last year until December. Now, with the vaccine at the beginning, it was, like, how do farmworkers get the vaccine? And so the challenge that was like, okay, first meeting to educate the farm workers and be like, so this is the vaccine and this is how we went about trying to get ahead of hesitancy and of what threw a wrench into that was, I think, the whole policy would change, like more side effects would change, breakthrough cases, things like that. But I guess between January to March, that was like our concern, like how do we prepare the farm workers for when the vaccine, they're eligible for the vaccine, how to do it. And then after that, it was like, okay, now that they're eligible for the vaccine, how can we ensure that they have access to the vaccine? And so that's when the whole local team initiative kind of came into play [and] that DPH was developed with our directors. And so then it was like, OK, once we have that, how do we as a program ensure that the team has the support they need to be able to either bring the vaccines to the camps or be able to transport the workers to get the vaccine? And that kind of what we're seeing is that there is still hesitancy, right? But with arriving workers it's like, how do you...not convince, but educate and want to make the decision to get vaccinated and how and where can they do it? Because what we're seeing is now health departments or clinics have decreased their funding or don't have the funding no longer available to have enough manpower. So like, their manpower has decreased to be able to do what was [...] at the beginning when the vaccine was made available to go to camps, to host events later at night when the farm workers are out. So we're seeing more of those challenges now. So, yeah, I don't know if that that's a clear answer, or if it just complicates things.
Sophie Therber [00:26:27] No, that's definitely a clear answer. It sounds like there's been a lot of just change in the priorities. I mean, when this was first going on, the need for testing, especially for farm workers, who can't social distance or stay isolated for a long time, is really important. And now the vaccine being available is a really great thing. But it does present a lot of other difficulties in just preparing the farm workers, as you were saying, and just making sure that it's accessible to them.
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:26:52] Yeah. Housing isolation for the farm workers have has been challenging. Both of the growers are able to provide isolation in housing, right? But I think in general, every population in this, across the US has struggled with being able to have safe quarantine and isolation housing, especially with communities that typically live with more than just nuclear family, right? Yeah.
Sophie Therber [00:27:27] So aside from the changing challenges and changing priorities for meeting the needs of the farmworker communities, how has your role specifically evolved since you arrived at the farmworker health program in earlier 2020?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:27:42] Yeah. So how it started, I was tasked mostly with communications. And at that moment it was only COVID, and it still is only COVID. But the program didn't have a communication specialist. So when I first started I was kind of tasked with everything that communication tools like developing new things, like finding things that we could use and/or newsletters, things like that. Simultaneously to when that was happening, we, I guess, I started kind of keeping track or helping our data specialists keep track of outbreak, not know what the response would entail, but definitely doing that, I guess kind of what contact tracing would have been to make sure that we had the details of outbreaks. And then one of my team members would coordinate the response and be like, "okay, this is the guidance, it's what you need to do." And then we got a communications specialist. And now I work more closely with her. And she's able to support most of the efforts. And now I've kind of digressed a little bit from communications, and she and she has been able to take the lead now with outbreak. Unfortunately, my team member was no longer with us. And so instead of just being in contact, sharing the information, I needed to coordinate outbreak response with that. And that was last year. At the beginning of this year, it was like trying to figure out the whole vaccination strategy and where I would fit in. And so with that, now, everyone from our team is kind of like the support for the next number of local county teams that focus on farmworker vaccination. And so now that's like part of my primary focus. And what that means, being able to get...records requests so that we know where farmworkers are going each month.
Sophie Therber [00:29:57] And how did those record requests work? Who has those records that you're getting them from?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:30:03] Yeah, so we get them from the Department of Commerce. I forget the full title, but there's a special division that works on processing H-2A visas, which are all agricultural, and then there's some H-2B visas that are part of the agricultural community.
Sophie Therber [00:30:25] Can you just briefly explain what the H-2A and H-2B visas are?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:30:30] Yeah. So H-2A visas are specific to agriculture. So anyone that comes through an H-2A to a visa, it has to be an agricultural worker. Right. And I don't know the full history of when those started, but that's what H-2A is now. With H-2B, I'm a little bit less familiar because the only ones that kind of are covered under, like, farmworker clinics are those that come into nurseries ore live in migrant camps, which are typically those in seafood processing. But H-2B visas are also temporary visas, just like H-2A. But most of them are in any service or critical infrastructure sectors. So a large number of H-2B recipients come for landscaping or construction or hotel-type work. And so there's not that many that come through through the H-2B side that are, or would be, considered farm workers, which is also a weird definition that I'm not completely sure [of].
Sophie Therber [00:31:46] OK, that makes sense. Thank you for explaining those. I want to go back to what you were saying about how you part of your job was contract the contact tracing for the farm workers. What was the process like of contact tracing for farm workers who don't, as you were saying, live just in traditional nuclear families? How did that work?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:32:07] Yeah, so most of what that contact tracing was and is, is if they go through the main H-2A contractor of the state. Because we know that everyone that comes through them has to go, come together each week or whatever. And so one with contact tracing was getting the details of when did the worker arrive? How many people live in the camp that would have become exposed? Date of symptom onset? And things like that, like the regular data gathering. And then once that information was given to the health department or the DPH, we would see if the symptoms onset and the date of arrival kind of coincided. And if so, we would ask for a list of workers that arrived or had contact with them during their trek to their grower or camp. And from there, we would share that information. I mean, there were instances that were needed-- most of them have been before my time. So for me, while I was here, it was mostly like the data gathering side of contact tracing.
Sophie Therber [00:33:32] I want to switch gears and just ask about in general, so you've lived in Asheville for a large portion of your life, and have there been any other -- have you had any other experience with any kind of disaster, whether it's a natural disaster or any other kind of disaster in Asheville before the pandemic?
[Internet connection problems]
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:34:01] Hi, Sophie.
Sophie Therber [00:34:02] Hey!
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:34:02] I don't know if it's my connection or yours. I couldn't hear.
Sophie Therber [00:34:07] Yeah, sorry about that. I'm not sure if it would be helpful. We can turn off our videos in case. Otherwise we can try again. Either way is fine.
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:34:16] I'll turn off my camera then.
Sophie Therber [00:34:19] Okay, I can turn mine off, too, just in case it helps. My question was, just since you've lived in Asheville for a large portion of your life, have you witnessed any other disaster, whether it's a natural disaster or any other kind of disaster that has affected you or your community there before the pandemic?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:34:38] Oh, yeah. Well, what I remember most would be like hurricanes, right? And I think that's common throughout, like most of North Carolina. I don't think Asheville has been hit with a lot of hurricanes or bad hurricanes as recently as the eastern part of the state. But what I remember would be like the hurricanes. And one, for us being school age, not being able to go to school, but like for my parents and others, it's like being [un]able to go to work because of road blocks or flooding, things like that, or like some of -- most of -- my family works on the fields, whether that's like construction or like yard work or are still farm workers. That would affect their income. Our family or my parents were mostly affected by like transportation issues and roadblocks to because of hurricane season.
Sophie Therber [00:35:44] And it sounds like the challenges of the hurricane season, especially since you were in Asheville instead of an eastern North Carolina, have been pretty different from the challenges of the pandemic. But are there any ways that they that you've experienced any similarities between those?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:36:00] Yeah, to be honest, is probably communications. Right. And part of it is because I think most counties don't really have a strong, like Spanish language communication or like emergency communication system. And so part of it has been that like even with it now and before, now we're struggling and relying on CBOs [community-based organizations] or other partners to be able to provide like Spanish, or any language, really, support communications in terms of like this is what you need to do, this is what you need to know. That has improved a little, but with hurricanes, it was also the same. Knowing, well, it's supposed to be hit here or there like these are the resources that you have in case you experience XYZ. So I think that's a challenge that was before. And it's still happening with this pandemic.
Sophie Therber [00:37:06] And how, how do you feel that the farmworker health program, I mean, of course, a big part of that program is having resources available in Spanish, but how specifically do you feel like they've addressed that issue of the communication?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:37:19] Yeah, so most of it, most of how that has been solved is through the newsletter and us making sure that the people that interact with the farmworkers have the latest information. Right. So that's one of the ways that that has been solved. Now, part of it tied to that is now we're able -- we have a little bit more leverage in asking the state and be like, "hey, this type of communication is needed. Can you either help us develop or can you develop it and make sure that it's there now?" I think it's a little bit easier with everyone being connected to the Internet because there's a lot of groups that are trying to work in ensuring that the Latinx community or any other HMP [historically marginalized population] community has access to this information in the best way for them. And so, like for us, it's been like looking into what AMEXCAN is doing in Latin-19 in the Research Triangle or like in the Western counties, kind of what coalitions are doing. And so it's been that combination of us looking into what CBOs are doing and how we can support or tag-team with them, but also making sure that the state is aware of the challenges that we're hearing and develops things that would be appropriate.
Sophie Therber [00:38:43] And when you are -- you and your organization are -- bringing concerns like that to the state, so concerns about communication or other concerns and addressing farmworker health, do you feel that the state has been receptive to those kinds of concerns?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:38:56] Yeah, I think for the most part, yes. Right. Or when where they can, they are. It's, I guess I don't really fully yet understand how the whole state processes work, because I'm a little bit...detached. Not detached, but I'm, I guess, on the forefront instead of in the fully administrative roles. So from what we hear, they've been really receptive to listening and trying to see what can come up or solutions that can be made. But the difficulty part is then making those solutions available or developing those solutions. But in terms of sharing and looking into the concerns, I think they've been receptive.
Sophie Therber [00:39:54] And you mentioned partnerships with coalitions such as AMEXCAN and other organizations. What do you feel that you and your organization have learned from those partnerships?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:40:05] Yeah, so part of it and, well, I guess most of what we've learned from them, it's kind of like, I guess, the intersection between farmworker's and regular Latinx community, so mostly those seasonal families. And so that's one thing. But also part of it is like...they're letting us know, kind of, the challenges that the community in general is facing with the pandemic that kind of...not complements, but is congruent to what we're seeing from the outreach workers. So that makes it a little bit easier for us to be able to be like, "look, this challenge just not only faced by farmworkers, but the Latinx community in general or any other HMP in general." And so that makes it for us to be able to have a collided front in making sure that we can push the envelope as needed. So that, I would say, being able to get a greater picture of just not farmworkers or migrant farm workers, but seasonal families as well has been the greatest strength with those.
Sophie Therber [00:41:16] That's interesting, what you're saying about having partnerships with these organizations, just being able to shed more light on the similarities or differences between the ways that farm workers are dealing with this pandemic versus the way that other members of the Latinx community, or just migrant communities in general, are dealing with a pandemic. So that's really interesting to be able to have that kind of partnership and learn that.
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:41:38] Yeah. Yeah, it's been really good for us. Unfortunately, sometimes it feels very one sided because we're able to learn and try to make sure that that doesn't happen or mitigate any of those needs. But that may or may not happen.
Sophie Therber [00:41:57] Right. If you could -- you and your organization, if you have any supports available to you or resources, what would that look like? What supports or resources would you want to have to be able to address farmworker health?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:42:13] Oh, God, yeah. Well, let me let me think about that.
Sophie Therber [00:42:22] Yeah, take your time.
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:42:29] I mean, I guess...Part of it is just being able to hire more people so that the outreach clinics have enough capacity to to not get burnt out, to have the support needed, to be able to do outreach to all the camps in all of their counties. So I think we're getting more funding for staffing and promoting more staffing would be greatly beneficial. Also [these] positions, the outreach clinics have a lot of turnover. Part of it is because there's really not much farther that they can go up the ladder. So it's not like it has a lot of professional development aspect to it. And then the, like...I mean, to be honest, I think it's a service, they're service provider. And unfortunately, we all know that they should be getting paid more. So would I want that? Yes! I don't know how that whole system works, but to me, it's like something that our program could in theory try to to see. Unfortunately, we don't really control how much they're paid. So that that's the other challenge.
Sophie Therber [00:43:56] And what is your relationship? Between your position, what you're doing, and the outreach workers; do you interact with them directly?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:44:05] Yeah, we do. Or I do. Sorry, I was speaking as "we" because, yeah, we're just a team. But yes, we interact directly with the outreach workers. Now, again, it's been mostly like through calls, or like video chats, because we, in theory, can't support on the field.
[Internet is buffering]
Sophie Therber [00:44:38] Are you there? I think you might have cut out for a second.
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:44:41] Oh, I am here.
Sophie Therber [00:44:42] Okay, cool.
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:44:42] Yeah.
Sophie Therber [00:44:44] I think that I caught most of your answer anyway.
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:44:46] Oh, okay
Sophie Therber [00:44:46] So it sounds like you do you have a direct relationship with the outreach workers, even though just because of the challenges of the pandemic, that often means phone calls and Zoom and things like that?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:44:58] Yep.
Sophie Therber [00:44:58] So, it sounds like, from your response, that the main supports that you and your organization would want to have more of are the outreach workers. And what exactly are the outreach workers doing? So, what are their jobs with the farmworker health program?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:45:15] Yeah, so this is this is part of the challenge that I was mentioning right before. So the the program funds, or provides funds to FQHCs [federally qualified health centers], NGOs [nongovernmental organizations], local health departments to have a farmworker unit. And so they're the ultimate -- the individual organization is ultimately the ones who decides who to hire, when to hire, things like that. So what the outreach worker does or is supposed to be doing is provide enabling services. And so, enabling services are a wide variety of services. And basically what they need to do is ensure that the farm workers can have access to health care. A lot of what that means is like interpretation, translation services, transporting to clinics, making appointments, things like that. And so what their responsibility then is, to all this, is just to communicate with us if they need any support, but also any of the data to make sure that they're providing those enabling services. So that's kind of the extent of what the outreach responsibility was for us. Or with, to us, as far as I understand.
Sophie Therber [00:46:41] And that's certainly so important to your organization. And I think that the phrasing it as "enabling services" is kind of helpful for me to conceptualize what exactly their role is with you. So, that makes sense. Well, is there anything else that you would like to add before I stop recording?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:47:01] Ah, no. Well, it's tricky, right? I think for the most part, we've played our cards, or with the cards that we're dealt with; unfortunately, I don't think they've been enough, right? And so part of the challenge that our program is looking into is how can we strategically think of what has worked and not worked and to ensure that we have the support system now with the pandemic, but how can we make sure that this continues further outside of this emergency, that we can be adapted if there's ever another emergency or just in general? We like to make sure that we provide this level of support to workers. So no, besides that, I don't think I have much to add. The only thing, I guess, to make sure that I have voice is most of what we're doing or that we work as a team, as the COVID response team is because of the outreach workers, because they're the ones who do the work. And we're just kind of like the messenger between them and any state entity or any resources that are available.
Sophie Therber [00:48:16] And how do you see the partnerships that you've built throughout the pandemic continuing even after the pandemic has hopefully subsided?
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:48:25] Yeah, I mean, part of what we're seeing is that a lot of the new partnerships are like, "oh, we never...we were aware of the farmworker community, but we never really had the chance to interact with them the most." And so what we're seeing is that they're like, "oh, like, how can we support further, besides just COVID?" And so that, that gives me hope that we can serve better. Right. And it also has shed light into more systematic, I guess, concerns or things that need to change. And so that's been good, that other entities are also saying that and thinking about how those things can change. So no concrete answers, I guess, unfortunately. But at least in terms of thinking and rationalizing that, that's been helpful in looking at how people are positive and to how these relationships can continue across or after the epidemic.
Sophie Therber [00:49:28] Great. Well, thank you so much for your time. I'm going to go ahead and stop the recording in just a moment.
Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo [00:49:32] Okay.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-1004 -- Mandujano Acevedo, Nicandro.
Description
An account of the resource
This interview was conducted by Sophie Therber with interviewee Nicandro Mandujano Acevedo via Microsoft Teams on August 4, 2021. The main focus of this interview is Nicandro’s involvement with the North Carolina Farmworker Health Program and his experience helping farmworkers mitigate the COVID pandemic. Nicandro emphasizes the need for improved communication with farmworkers in regards to COVID and other disasters, as well as the overall challenges of working with farmworkers in North Carolina. He explains the tension between the need to develop thoughtful emergency response plans and the unexpected, unplanned nature of emergencies. Despite the hardships of COVID, Nicandro explains that the pandemic created an opportunity for better communication between farmworker health sites, collaboration with other organizations, and communication between sites and farmworkers.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2021-08-04
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
R1004_Audio.mp3
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29196">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/f7eca2fc0e311e62e6f88103e4b4ff8d.mp3
11215696786813a8c92ab996391e8934
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/ff565255a4915620e0d5affc0602d54b.pdf
24082066a6d31aa333a6ee1f0bbeb868
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-1003
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
Fecha
2021-08-05
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Rivera, Natalie.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Health Service Workers
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1987
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Greensboro -- North Carolina -- United States
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Mebane -- Alamance County -- North Carolina
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Therber, Sophie.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
This oral history interview was conducted by Sophie Therber with interviewee Natalie Rivera via Zoom on August 5, 2021. Natalie is from rural North Carolina and has been working with immigrant communities since college. This interview follows her many roles in organizations dedicated to immigrant health and well-being. The main focus of this interview is Natalie’s involvement with the Farmworker Health Program and her experience helping farmworkers mitigate the COVID pandemic and extreme weather, as well as other challenges such as HIV education, Internet access, and emergency-related communication in Spanish. Natalie describes her experience addressing disasters such as COVID and hurricanes, discussing the need to set protocols to address disasters and explains how sometimes immigrant communities do not receive the help that they need in the face of these disasters. She emphasizes the way that communities can come together to accomplish amazing feats in the face of adversity.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Natalie Rivera by Sophie Therber, 05 August 2021, R-1003, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29193
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
COVID-19; Agricultural workers; Health; Climate Change; Community and social services and programs
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Sophie Therber [00:00:02] My name is Sophie Therber, and I'm interviewing Natalie Rivera. Today is August 5th, 2021, and the time is 8:41 a.m. Natalie, thank you so much for agreeing to participate in this. And just to start, can you tell me where you're from and just a little bit about that area?
Natalie Rivera [00:00:26] I'll turn my video off, just to help us out a little bit. Where I'm from, as far as ...Give me a little more information on that.
Sophie Therber [00:00:35] Yeah, sure. So, where did you grow up? Where do you live now?
Natalie Rivera [00:00:40] Okay, yeah, so I was born and raised in North Carolina, primarily in the Piedmont region. I grew up in that area and then ended up going to university at UNC Wilmington and then lived in Wilmington about, gosh, like, 13 years, just recently moved back to Piedmont area, specifically to Mebane. But I've pretty much been in North Carolina my whole life.
Sophie Therber [00:01:14] And what has influenced your decision to stay and continue living in North Carolina?
Natalie Rivera [00:01:22] I think I always wanted to leave. Not even, maybe, permanently, but just, mainly I have family here and I think probably why I stick around. After college, I really got into outreach and farmworker health and really ended up just loving the work and staying for that reason. I really loved my job and everything. So, I mean, that's really the main reason I've stayed.
Sophie Therber [00:02:03] How did you first get involved in outreach and farmworker health?
Natalie Rivera [00:02:08] So I did my undergrad at UNC Wilmington, double-major Spanish and communication studies, so I was, you know, learning Spanish and I did an internship with this place in Wilmington called Centro Latino. Well, Centro Latino under a broader organization called Amigos Internacional. And they did that internship. I got to work with a lot of different people. And the main purpose was sort of a resource center for Latinos and for immigrants in the community would come, anything that was needed, paperwork, looking for jobs, reading through their mail, like refers to resources, everything. And I just kind of really enjoyed the work, ended up staying there for another year through an AmeriCorps access service program and got to dive a little bit deeper in understanding the immigrant community in North Carolina, especially Mexican and Central American immigrants, and kind of learning their stories. I realized all of the challenges with our broken immigration system and just wanted to continue doing that work. But I'm also, being from rural North Carolina, just kind of had a special interest in learning more about, I guess, sort of agriculture, farming and sort of where -- I didn't quite because, I was more of an urban area, so I didn't quite see where our immigrant community and agriculture sort of intersect. So I ended up, after I graduated, applying for a fellowship through Student Action with Farmworkers, based in Durham and the Fellowship basically gives students that are from North Carolina, from rural North Carolina. They choose, for the fellowship and for internship program, they choose kind of a mixed group, like rural North Carolina or farmworker families or had worked in farm work. So I got chosen for the fellowship and was placed at an organization called the Farmworkers Project, or we call it El Proyecto. That's in Benton, North Carolina. And that's when I really started to dive in and learn about farm workers. So in more of the context. I was looking and also learning about public health, kind of trying to find a way to also tie in the Spanish that had learned and also look for ways to better serve the community, and really fell in love with public and community health. So ended up doing that for a while. But I'll stop there. I can keep going with the whole story of life story until now, but yeah. I'll pause just for a second, if you have another question
Sophie Therber [00:05:17] Okay, yeah. And I'd love to hear more about what your journey has been like since then. But I do have a question. What was it like to learn Spanish and then be speaking another language in your professional life after having learned it?
Natalie Rivera [00:05:34] Yeah, it was. It was really challenging, I think. I don't think that I'm someone that was naturally good at another language, but I had done an exchange program and learned some there. And through getting to work at the Centro Latino. And definitely when I worked at the Farmworkers Project, all of my coworkers, my boss, everyone spoke Spanish so was very immersed and they were so nice and graceful to me. I think one thing that helped is focusing on certain topics and learning all the vocab. And so I got really good at learning specific topics and everything for it. Like I was a HIV educator at Farmworker's Project and it was nice, as I just said, one area to focus on and can really improve the Spanish that way. But eventually you get the hang of it and it gets more and more comfortable and it feels very natural. So there's definitely times where it was a struggle, though.
Sophie Therber [00:06:38] Yeah. Did you say that you were working with HIV in farmworkers?
Natalie Rivera [00:06:45] Yeah, it was an HIV educator.
Sophie Therber [00:06:47] Okay, HIV educator. What was that like? What kind of responsibilities did you have in that role?
Natalie Rivera [00:06:52] Yeah, so I basically, it was pretty easy. I was given a flip chart, so I was already kind of pre-prepared for me, and myself and another outreach worker, as we were called, really, we went out. And after we would do initial visits with farm workers where we do like health assessments and referred to the clinic and other resources, then my coworker and I would follow up and she would do a pesticide education series and then I would do the HIV. And I really liked [it] because I got trained on popular education, so I would do different things to be really interactive because, you know, it's a tough topic. And even coming from my background, that's pretty conservative and didn't even get a lot of -- any sex education in school at all, so it was it was like I also became really passionate about it at the same time. It's so important because I realized, like, maybe a lot of people aren't getting this. So we try to just, you know, didn't want to assume that no one knew what this was, but just use it as an opportunity to have a conversation and grow a relationship with farm workers that were there working. And it was fun and it was we would make it both of our conversations entertaining and interactive. Hopefully, folks could learn from it. But it also could be just something to do after work. It was overall a really good experience doing that. I kind of forgot, now, that part, but I'm glad that we're talking about it.
Sophie Therber [00:08:39] Right, that's so interesting in that you were able to take something that people don't normally talk [about], I mean, like you said, not having a lot of sex education in school, and kind of make it into a more fun conversation and learning experience for people.
Natalie Rivera [00:08:53] Yeah, absolutely.
Sophie Therber [00:08:56] Do you feel that there have been any similarities with your role working as an HIV educator to your role now because of the pandemic?
Natalie Rivera [00:09:10] I think I may have to...I may need to fast forward a little bit and tell you what I've done since then.
Sophie Therber [00:09:16] OK, that would be great.
Natalie Rivera [00:09:18] I wonder if that might help. So, I'm finishing my fellowship there. I just really fell in love with work, fell in love with community health in general. I also did a...I got to do a community health project, so I was there [and] ended up where I just went in to a farmworker camp and met with a small group of farm workers. And the idea was just to ask them, "Hey, what do you want to learn about? What do you need?" So, again, like using that popular education, using this community health model of really asking what's needed with no intentions in mind. And I remember just loving that concept of just asking, "Hey, I'm here, I'm a resource. I need to do this. So what do you need me to do for you?" And ended up, the group wanted to learn about, like contact dermatitis because they were working in tobacco and were getting a lot of, we get a lot of rashes and scabs. And I would say I got to learn about that and got to work with the medical provider at the time to develop some curriculum. So I feel like that in itself, that piece led me into wanting to pursue my master's in public health. And then it also made me want to continue just the work in general of outreach. So when I moved back to Wilmington, I had known that the North Carolina Farmworker Health Program, who partially funds the Farmworkers Project, was working. I knew that they had been looking for potentially opening a new site down in Pender County, which wasn't too far from where I was living in Wilmington. And I reached out to them and I said, "hey, if you guys are ever planning to open anything or want to do anything, like, I would just love to be a part of whatever I can do." And so that actually led to... that was kind of funny because I've done lots of internships, fellowships and everything at this point, but they came back and like, "well, would you want to intern for the summer?" And I'm like, "you know what? Fine, I'll do whatever it takes. I just want to get into this work." So [I] ended up interning for the summer at the local Pender County Health Department and working very closely with the cooperative extension, who at that time also had a pesticide educator, so I was kind of familiar with that work because I've worked with another pesticide person in another county. Worked closely with her and did that internship for the whole summer, it was full-time. And I went with her to visit some of the farms where she did pesticide education. So, I started mapping out where all the farms were, where the camps were, mapping out all the resources, all the clinics. I was thinking, like, "What does Farmworkers Project do? How do they do their outreach? I need to just replicate that model." So, by the end of it, I was like, "well, this was great. But, you know, I want to do more." Ended up, NC Farmworker Health said, "well, what if we offered you a position of the outreach coordinator role and we paid you for about eight months, and during that time you applied for our official grant and then you could start the program there?" That was in, I think it was 2012 or 2013, maybe. So, nine, or however many years ago. I don't know what year we're in, but it was a long time ago. That's really where it all started. I was there for about eight years, in that role. We grew tremendously, worked with the health department, ended up kind of outgrowing the health department and moved the program over to a community health center that was like down the street. That was here before I left. We were there for several years. And then we started a mobile clinic. We started, just all kinds of services. Dental services, worked with optometry services, just tried to, as much as we can, making a robust program. And right before I left, this incredible person started working with us -- she's a nurse -- and running our mobile clinic. And I just knew, I was -- oh, then we also extended and open another satellite site. But anyway, so I just knew that she...I was like, "I hope, I wish she could take the program for me" because I think I was just kind of ready. And I'd just finished my master's in public health. I did it online through UNC, and I was just kind of ready. It just felt like I'd done everything I needed to, and maybe somebody else could come in and have kind of a fresh look on it. So I got really lucky, and she took over my position. That was last year, in 2020 I left. And it was really hard and sad to leave, but it was just...it felt really good in the moment to have her and have all the other staff that was there. But I think...going very back to your question and thinking about what about that initial position fellowship...I think I learned the most from that experience doing that community-based work where you just ask what's needed. You don't really have an intention. You don't really an agenda. Because sometimes, even with public health, we can get sort of tunnel vision. This is the project I need to do. This is what, like, "oh, I know. I have to do HIV education and you need education. But I really liked that freedom, that opportunity to be really open. And I feel like that's a theme we would keep throughout that new program, we ended up calling it Manos Unidas, was the outreach program that was created in Pender County. And it served 10 counties. Really, that was always a theme with everyone that was hired to work with. Our vision is that we don't need to exist. We're here to fill a gap and a barrier that exists right now. But we're just here to serve. And that's something I learned from AmeriCorps, too. It's just all about service. Empowering people is important. And so, yeah, I feel like that's where I really learned a lot from all that. And thinking about my role, and I'm going into [your] question about my role right now. But I guess I should pause because I'm telling you quite a bit with this story.
Sophie Therber [00:16:12] No, that's all really great. It sounds like your job has just changed so much from your first involvement with Manos Unidas and just asking people what they need, and now having kind of a more public health-focused role with the Farmworker Health Program. And I would love to hear more about what you're doing now. So go ahead, and you can continue.
Natalie Rivera [00:16:35] Yeah. I worked at the Farmworkers Project with the HIV project and then moved, and we started the Manos Unidas in in Pender County, and then from there -- and that was funded by the North Carolina Farmworker Health Program; actually, both of those sites are funded by them. It's just a different area. So, left that position and actually had some plans to take some time off and do some traveling. I was excited, you know. But unfortunately, the pandemic started and we were all stopped in our tracks, right? Any plans that anybody had, that was it. We needed to stay put. So, I was sitting there thinking, you know, this is going on, I have a degree in public health, I need to -- obviously, first of all, I'm going to find a job and I want to find a job at this point. And I didn't know quite what that was. And I just started looking around and something with the COVID response and found this position as the Internet Connectivity Project coordinator with the North Carolina Farmworker Health Program, who I had known for all these years and had funded different areas where I had worked and were great funders, very involved with each and any of the sites I worked with. I thought, "well, let me see what this is about," interviewed with them, got hired, and was super excited...supposed to be a six-month position. The idea is with COVID, everyone is at home. Everybody's grounded. Farm workers are more isolated than they had ever been. And outreach workers weren't really able to go out first and do what they do best, [which] is go out to the farms, into the camps and do outreach. NC Farmworker Health Program came up with the idea that we should try to make sure farm workers have Internet connectivity as a way to do phone calls and telemedicine and all that. And so that was my goal, coming in. We've done all kinds of different models to figure that out, and the first thing to do, going back to that incorporating community feedback, is been working closely with East Carolina University, who's doing the monitoring evaluation for the for the project and for the Internet connectivity project itself. And we just actually went out earlier this week, funny story, to the old site where I used to work. And we did qualitative interviews with farm workers to get their feedback on Internet connectivity and how some of these different projects are going, where we put Internet routers and different farms, different camps. And so trying to incorporate that into the project as we go, because it's also been an emergency. So it wasn't like we could just do an assessment, wait, and then implement. We did a process evaluation because we were in an emergency, and we had to just get things going to the best of our knowledge, which was somewhat...Because I had done outreach, I really understood farmworker housing, and kind of how isolated it can be, and different ways that we had even gotten the Internet going into doing our mobile clinics. So I wasn't totally off with with getting things started. But in understanding that relationship between outreach workers and farm workers is a close relationship. So one of our models is the lending program that the outreach workers actually bring hotspots out to the farm workers and borrow them. And it's -- not only it was a way to literally reconnect, like come out, we're going to bring this -- but also build that relationship. And it's like a whole ‘nother, and what I've heard and the feedback we've heard from outreach workers is that it offered another incentive for building that relationship, another resource, and that it has been helpful, so far, as we're getting that feedback. Yeah.
Sophie Therber [00:21:00] Yeah, I appreciate you taking the time to just tell me all the different positions that you've had and how your jobs and what you've been focusing on has changed so much throughout your whole career. That's really interesting. Can you tell me a little bit more about -- so, you were saying that you went and had qualitative interviews with the farm workers to discuss their experience with Internet connectivity. How were they reacting, and what was their experience with that?
Natalie Rivera [00:21:32] Yes, so are the students working with us, Paula. She's just awesome, got to meet her the other night. So she had so far only been doing because we started the project at the end of last semester or the end of last year. Last season, really, we weren't able to interview farmworker's before going left in the season was over. So we ended up our first goal was to interview the outreach workers because in general, the outreach workers can speak a little bit to some of farmworkers, some of the feedback they're getting. And so that gave us enough information to just continue what we're doing and adjust things as needed. When the season started back this year, we were ready to start interviewing farmworkers as soon as they arrived in the area. She had interviewed about seven or eight farm workers over the phone, and they met with her to see how it was going. And it was just very positive feedback. "This is great. We love it," you know? And I'm like, "Okay, give me some critical feedback. I mean, something." So, we ended up...I needed to do a site visit or this other model, so there's the lending program and there's another model we're calling the Internet hub. And this particular model, it was a very large camp: 80 farmworkers in one location, 40 in another, 40 in another. It was a little bit challenging to just provide hot spots to everyone. So, we did an Internet hub model where we put a really big router on this outdoor picnic shelter area. So it was a centralized location where anyone can go and get Internet. I wanted to see how that was going because it was done through more of a grower-crew leader relationship, versus the outreach workers and farm workers. Plus, since COVID had started, the local outreach program, Manos Unidas, had been having issues visiting that camp because there was a lot of fear around COVID still, and outbreaks. And I'm sure, talking to Gayle and Nicandro [other people interviewed for this project], you got a lot of this, but we planned to go together, and they talked about telemedicine. And so it would be with the crew that are coming with us, and it would be an opportunity to reopen the door. And then I could just get some more casual anecdotal conversations about Internet, and then Paula could do the official interview. It actually went really well. She said, "these are some of the best interviews I've had because it just so much more engaging in-person." I haven't gotten to talk to her yet about how what she learned in those interviews, because I myself just wanted to just walk around, and I talked to groups and heard different things. The feedback that I got just doing that, which is in our official IRB, it just helps me with the project, was the Internet hub...they didn't like that it didn't reach out to all the housing units. When they were inside, they couldn't get Internet because part of that is that those housing units are metal buildings, so it's just really not going to penetrate through the buildings, the signal. And we kind of knew that going on in, but just wanted to see what it would be like. So that was one of the good critical feedback. And then also that when everyone gets on the Internet, it slows down. Again, it was really good to get that feedback. And then everyone said, "It's nice. I had a data plan and I was able to get a smaller data plan because now I can go out there and I can connect to the Internet and I can make a phone call." So folks did really like having the Internet, but the quality wasn't as good as it could have been. And that was an interesting thing, because the grower had wanted to do a better Internet like the fiber, but the service provider wasn't available to that particular area, which is something we're learning about and finding out that really, most of these migrants do not have the option of, through the Internet service provider, to have...You know, we go to a residential home and the Internet has been there for years. You just move in and you call and you get your set up. But like with migrant housing, it's never been set up. They call it "the last mile," getting that line and it just hasn't happened, hasn't been talked about before. That's why we went with this Internet hub. And it's like a cellular network model, so it feeds off of cell towers. But, anyway. Any questions?
Sophie Therber [00:26:34] Yeah, that's really interesting, especially the part about how you had this idea to use the Internet hubs, and they enjoyed having access to the Internet, but it just wasn't really meeting their needs to have Internet inside of their homes and things like that. So, is this program something that's just a specific sites where farmworkers live, or is it in a certain county, or is it just at one sit hubs? What is the extent of this program?
Natalie Rivera [00:27:01] Yes, so we're statewide with it, anywhere that's interested in the state can can sign up. We have as far as the hotspot lending partners, as I call them, outreach programs that are the clinics that we're working with to distribute hot spots. We have about, about nine partners doing that and about a little over three hundred hot spots in their hands. And then I'm working on a report right now figuring out how many of those hot spots were distributed to farm workers and how many farmers had access to those hot spots. When we did our report back in April, it was it was pretty high the how many had been distributed. But we know we know that it's not going to be one hundred percent. So I'm waiting to see what that looks like. And then we have the Internet hubs. We've only done about 14 of those so far. But it's only on about six different farms across the state, so trying to work on that uptake. However, the process of getting those ordering and getting those installed is like...I mean, we're looking at an 11 week, like, lag time. It's pretty -- it's definitely slowing up, maybe, what I would have hoped we could have done. And, like I said, it's just one option. And then the other piece that is also a statewide option is we work closely with the North Carolina Institute of Agromedicine, who we contracted with to do a reimbursement program for farms, where if the farmer is interested in going through that process of talking with Internet service providers, getting it set up in their area, then they'll actually reimburse the farmer for the router and the services and installation of that. And that's then about five farms, too. But the only trick with that is...some of the farms that have wanted to do it actually found out and hit a wall and said, "The Internet service company is not coming out to the farm, and so what can we do?" So, when that happens, depending on the size of the pants, we refer them to either a local health clinic that has hotspots, or that's when we started the Internet hub because it was a couple -- this particular farm, it was so big that we were trying to find another solution that would not require, like, 20 hotspots. So, yes, it really is across the state, and then because you were running in all these infrastructure issues, we're working closely with the North Carolina Broadband Infrastructure Office to talk about, well, how can we influence and promote digital inclusivity and that the last mile does get to migrant housing because that is the long-term solution, right? That's the long term solution because cellular network data isn't the best. It's not the gold standard, you know? So that's the, sort of, fourth thing that we're doing is trying to just overall work on infrastructure. But yeah, but it is statewide.
Sophie Therber [00:30:31] One thing that stands out to me is all the different partnerships that you have with places around the state, like you mentioned, NC Broadband, you're working directly with the growers at the places where the farm workers are living, agromedicine. So, what has it been like for you to create and maintain these partnerships with so many different stakeholders?
Natalie Rivera [00:30:52] Yeah, you know, it's one of the things you learn in your MPH school is doing that stakeholder matrix, so maybe I started out trying to do one, but it's more like -- I think they have you do that matrix over and over because they just want to get it in your head like a natural way that you keep in contact with everyone. Like what's their purpose? We knew the agromedicine's really good with growers and that relationship. So, that's why we ended up going with them for that contract. I check in with the health clinics. We do quarterly reports, so far we're going to go on the second time this year. So everyone's very busy. So I try not to do too much of a check in, but I also kind of regularly try to schedule meetings to keep myself available. I just did a meeting with one of our partners that's a little more focused on seasonal families that I wanted to know more about that because a lot of our work's been focused on migrant workers and living in migrant housing. And this partner happened to do more work with seasonal families and reached out and said, "Can we supply these hotspots to students that the schools aren't able to supply?" And so we had a whole conversation about it and they've been doing that. But, yeah, I just try to check in and then there is something else we're doing, which me and several partners are -- oh, yeah. So I held this series of meetings in February called Assessing the Digital Divide for Farmworkers. And I just invited all the partners that I've been working with to meet and talk more about what we can do to solve this problem, like what's needed, what the farmworkers need, that sort of things. And we did two meetings the result of that was that maybe we should keep meeting and maybe we need to sort of look and partner on the whole agricultural community and that be our approach to better broadband for agricultural communities, because there's so many benefits in the farms having better Internet -- from the technology they can use on the field, just everything, payroll systems, everything being online -- to the farmers and families themselves, maybe having better access to Internet for telemedicine, their overall health. And then the same thing with farm workers. With better access to telemedicine, better access resources, emotional well-being, being far from their family. So, right now, we're looking at an approach that brings everyone together. And so probably around October, we're going to start quarterly meetings called the North Carolina Agricultural Digital Alliance. And that's another way I'm thinking that partners will come together and continue to talk about this topic. And the broadband infrastructure office has supported the idea that they would take feedback from this group, joined some of the meetings when they can. So that's another way we're looking to engage partners. It's been a lot of it's not a lot of work. It is hard to keep up with everybody, but it's worth it. So it's really important to do.
Sophie Therber [00:34:16] That's so incredible that you're able to kind of take the people in different groups that you're working with now and form the digital alliance, and that's really exciting that that's something that's on the horizon for you and your organization. I'd like to switch gears -- oh, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. Go ahead.
Natalie Rivera [00:34:34] No. Yeah, I think it'll be great. And I'll say, we're looking at it being housed in the potentially cooperative extension who has local counties. So that'll be really nice to where we'll support it. But yeah. Yeah, go ahead.
Sophie Therber [00:34:54] Thank you for adding that. I would just like to switch gears and ask -- you've been working with farmworker communities for a long time, and have you had any kind of personal experience with natural disasters or extreme weather affecting these communities in the time that you've been working with them?
Natalie Rivera [00:35:12] Yeah, yes, absolutely, and I was like, "oh, yeah, we were supposed to talk about that, too." Yes, I think that's why Elizabeth or Gayle or somebody referred me to you. So, when I was the outreach coordinator or at the time program director at Manos Unidas, we obviously went through a couple of hurricanes. In particular, Hurricane Florence was pretty, just devastating. And we're really far east, so it really impacted the communities. We went through Hurricane Florence and then the follow-up hurricane and then the next year, I think it was Dorian or something. But yeah, we've definitely had that experience for sure, or had that experience.
Sophie Therber [00:36:04] And if you had to explain your experience with Hurricane Florence or any other natural disasters or extreme weather to somebody who had never experienced that kind of flooding damage, what would you -- how would you describe that to somebody?
Natalie Rivera [00:36:19] It's like, it's a lot. Like, every time I think about it, I don't...I get emotional about it because it you don't realize how devastating it is until it's over, because I feel like you're just in response mode. And I'm probably making it sound a certain way. But we were in we were actually at a conference, the group of us were at a conference in New Orleans, of all places, and flew back early from the conference, heard this was happening. And you know, and again, I'm telling this from my experience as the program director, outreach coordinator. But obviously, you know, the concern was, what are we doing? I got a call from the North Carolina Farmworker Health Program, and they were saying, "Hey, just wondering what you guys are doing for the farm workers in your area, like, do you have any protocol?" And I was like, "No, we don't!" I don't know. We don't know what to do. This isn't part of our...I mean, we have our role and we have all these different aspects of our health program, but not necessarily this kind of an emergency. And I never really realized what could happen out a little bit further from the coast with the river flooding. So we just started making -- we were like, okay, so we just started making phone calls. And our database system is not very efficient for mass texting or emails or phone calls. And so we just dived in and all of us, the ones that were at that conference flew back early. Luckily, I mean, my parents were amazing and drove down to Wilmington and boarded up my house so I didn't have to worry about that, and I actually flew in to Charlotte and they picked me up and I stayed with them. Like I said, I'm from the Piedmont area, so it's a little bit safer. And then most of my staff, the staff also evacuated. Some of them were living in Wilmington, some were living in Pender County. A lot of them evacuated up to Raleigh. So we're just kind of like sitting ducks. And in the meantime, we're all monitoring the local county emergency protocols and where shelters are. And they just did an amazing job. While everyone's just sitting there like, "What is going to happen to our homes and our community and everything?" And they would just sit in their hotel rooms or in their family rooms. And we were all off work. We found out, and we probably knew at that time, we were going to be getting paid for the fact that it's an emergency and we can't go to work. But none of them really had to do anything. But everybody really did a great job. We started a Google doc and just started throwing resources in it and calling everyone we could. But it was it was hard because we just didn't have an efficient system. And when it was all said and done, everybody is waiting to figure out when you go back. I finally -- and then it was just crazy that Highway 40 was closed down. Every entryway back to Wilmington into that area was closed. And I mean, it's just something like apocalyptic. I'm not the age where I've experienced the other devastating hurricanes in that area, either. And a lot of us weren't. So, this was very new to be in a lot of my staff as well. So I finally heard that [Highway] 421 was open and I hopped in a car with a friend. Actually my husband had already left my parents' house and he was on call to go to a shelter in Sampson County, because he was also working in the health -- it's so funny, he actually became a health educator for pesticides, but working for a cooperative extension in Sampson County. So, he got called in to go to a shelter and he had already left to do that. And so I hopped in the car with my friend an drove back to Wilmington. And right when we got back, I got a call from the Episcopal Farmworker Ministry who is like, amazing. You should interview them if you have a chance, with Lariza. And she said, "Hey, we've got all these.." -- They're a little further out, in Clinton, so they weren't impacted -- she could tell you how it impacted they were, but a little further inland, I guess. And they got these donations and everything, can we get them out to the farms? And all I knew was a lot of the roads were washed out, but we wanted to try to see what we can do and get out to some of these camps that we don't know what's going on. Now, luckily, this happened at the end of the season, a lot of the farm workers had gone home. I even found out later, like a whole group of farm workers actually just flew out before anything happened in our area. So we were like, we can't get in touch with anyone. We just need to go out and see what's going on. And we have these food donations, so a group of us had planned to go the next day. Some of us who live in Wilmington, some of us who were on the other side of the flooding, meet at our office and get the van now and then drive off to Clinton or wherever the office was, I forget if it's Dunn. Somewhere out there. And start distributing supplies. And a couple people were coming from Raleigh. The crazy thing is, is that same night, I think that same evening, the road 421 washed out again. And I remember my husband was took a video of the river, the river as it started to rise. And he was driving through it. And I'm like, "Oh my God." And he made it home safe so. So we were like, "Well, how the hell are we going to get to the office?" And so we found this other route and it took us -- what would normally take 45 minutes from Wilmington, it took, like, an hour and a half the way we had to go to get there. And then I had another staff person that -- I'll tell you what, we didn't end up going to the office, we ended up going all the way up to the Episcopal Farmworker Ministry where we're picking up supplies. And that was where it was really hard drive anyway for us. So I forget how long it took, but it took longer because we were constantly running into the roads that were closed because they were flooded out. And then, so we got there and one of my staff got to the office. He was telling me how all around he had to go to get the van. And I was like, "Oh, my God." And I'm like, "What are we doing? Am I supposed to be allowing the staff to do this?" Like, I was also kind of freaking out, like, I know we need to do this, but also we don't have any safety protocols. It's just, we were not prepared for this. But luckily, everyone was so willing and so helpful and it was the greatest staff. So we started picking up supplies and we started delivering it to the camps that we knew were in the area. And that's where it got really...Just doing that all day, and we had some of the information from the phone calls we'd made, but we went to a farm that we thought only had like 20 workers. And I only brought enough for that and showed up, and it was, like, 80 people there. And I was like, "Wait, you guys were here? You guys, you didn't get evacuated or something?" And it's still to this day, I'm trying to wrap my brain [around] why they didn't leave. They had flooding and they weren't able -- they were sort of stuck in their homes. At that point, there wasn't any flooding. But I was worried. I was worried about this particular camp because I do remember from two years before when we had that flooding the area, they said it got flooded, and it was with a new group for us. And so we didn't really know about them until after that happened. I was just kind of worried that they had been flooded out again. Apparently, I guess some of them had evacuated, but they had been returned. And everything was closed down, too, so if you're not racked in foods, then, you know, you're kind of stuck. We left, and actually, my husband was -- that day, he had come with us because he had gotten permission from his work to do this work as well. And it was actually both of us that were out, and we left and I was just like freaking out because I was thinking we didn't leave enough food, you know? And again, people are resilient, but it just didn't sit well because we couldn't get back to the ministries in time. And I called her and she was thinking about doing another delivery with her group the next day. But I ended up driving by a firehouse and I was like, "Oh, gosh, maybe they at least have water and we could go drop off the water." And I got out and I said, "Hey, are you all familiar with this with this camp of farm workers? We really wanted to bring -- do you have extra water, just bring over to them?" And they were like, "Oh, my gosh;" they knew about this group, but they also didn't realize they were still there. So was again, speaking of this isolation, I mean, it's just this incredible isolation that farmworkers experience when they're here on their contract, it's really not safe. So they were the sweetest group of women. They said, "You know what, we actually have all this hot food we're serving, and how many plates do you need?" And I was like, "You know, like I think we need like a hundred plates." And so they said, "Don't worry about it. We're going to put their plates together right now. We're going to go deliver them." And I can't even remember if we delivered them. Who knows? I think they just went over and they said, "We'll deliver them hot food tomorrow and Sunday," or something like that. And I was like, oh, so just grateful. And obviously, I don't know how when maybe the food wasn't perfect. It wasn't maybe the most culturally appropriate food. I mean, but it was something and it was just a really great experience. But coming back, we realized that other route we took to get in was closed. So, we had to drive all the way up Highway 40 and then cut in and go through Jacksonville. Again, what would take 45 minutes from the office to get home took us 3 hours. And it was a group of us, two different vehicles doing that. And then we waited, and the next day I think some of the groups that were on the other side of the flooding kept delivering. And it finally subsided where we could get in through at least one route, and we kept delivering food and water and working with the local shelters. It was an overwhelming experience because we were seeing how unprepared we were and how vulnerable farmworkers are during a disaster like this and how bad the flooding is in that area. So, it was a mess.
Sophie Therber [00:47:44] Wow, that's really incredible. I mean, I was honestly at the edge of my seat when you were talking about, like, all the road closures and having to make all of these backup plans and change what you were doing, and all of these different people, like the Episcopal Farmworkers Ministry and the local shelters and the woman with the hot food coming together at the last minute, basically, to address these issues. So. That's really incredible to hear about.
Natalie Rivera [00:48:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was a definitely a group community effort.
Sophie Therber [00:48:16] And just hearing you talk about the devastation, you were saying the conditions were almost apocalyptic, the isolation that farm workers are experiencing and just how vulnerable they are. What stands out to you, if you had to pick just a couple, the biggest challenges in addressing this issue for the communities that you were working with?
Natalie Rivera [00:48:39] Yeah, so after that experience, we were obviously like, "We need to set up protocols, we need to do more when something like this happens again." It was even, I do remember even one instance we had gone back, we were even all back in the office and Red Cross came in and they said, "We have all these cleaning supplies, can you give us some locations?" And I was like, I can't give you -- I'm remembering how it went, but I gave them some neighborhoods. I didn't want to give exact addresses because we can't do that. But I said, "You can go into this neighborhood and this neighborhood and just drive." Because that's really what they would do anyway. They would just go to neighborhoods and drive around and drop off supplies. So I did that. And then the next day I got a phone call from the Red Cross, a different person, and they said, "Hey, I heard you're really good contact for doing, like figuring out where to go. Can you give me some locations?" And I was like, "I literally just did that yesterday." And it was just frustrating because I know this stuff is going to happen, but it just wasn't efficient and a lot of different things. And I didn't feel like we were in the right place where we could just respond. After that happened, we started thinking about what we had capacity for and what we needed to really raise up to our community for filling in the holes. You have emergency management, but you also realize, like not a lot of communication goes out in Spanish, and maybe not everyone has access to that. And what's crazier is obviously now a couple of years later, doing this Internet project, realizing a huge hole in the whole thing was that farmworker's, a lot of times don't have Internet or don't have cell phone signal to even get the message. That's really just bizarre. Now, in this position, that's something I've talked about a lot, is how it helps with emergency communication. And many of the farms I talked to said the same thing. They said this is this is crucial because during Florence, we weren't able to communicate as well as or more immediately, they would have to go out. You have to go out to the farm and out to the camp, a lot of times, to know what workers need. Obviously, the farms know a little more because they're their employees. So there obviously should be a better sense of responsibility there. If you ever interview anyone else, Melissa Bailey out on another area with Kinston Community Health Center, played a role or received communication for a group of farm workers that actually really did get flooded in. And there was this whole miscommunication that happened. And, you know, the grower didn't evacuate the workers, and they literally got flooded in. And you can Google this and see pictures of farm workers like waist deep evacuating the camp. We didn't see that in our area, but I know Melissa Bailey could talk more about that and what happened. And so that's when we realize this is far from over. Farmworkers are vulnerable. They're already vulnerable. We already see just so many, you know, there's a lot of power dynamics, and it's not very normal for an employer to have that much power or responsibility for their workers or the nature of our H-2A contracts puts a lot of responsibility on the grower to make sure the workers are safe. And if the grower isn't fulfilling their role and doing that, the farmworkers are one hundred percent vulnerable. And if the infrastructure isn't there, Internet and cell phone service and money to buy a cell phone. And if that's not there, then that's a whole ‘nother issue. And farms need to have evacuation plans for their workers. So a lot of it was we knew, and thinking about what we could do as an outreach program, we knew a lot of it was beyond our capacity in our scope and even our funding. So we did apply for some funding from some grants that came out right after Florence. And the first one we did, we wanted to do, kind of, an assessment and do interviews with farm workers to see what we could do and what was needed. We were able to hire someone to really focus on that project. And they interviewed with farm workers. And some of the things we learned about was like, you know, even just they were going to like the vehicle that was there and charging their phones. And so we realized maybe battery-powered chargers would be important and flashlights. And so if they did stay in their house, like if there was a low flood risk then and they weren't in a flood zone, then at least they could have different forms of power. And we tried to think about education we could do. We also set protocols for our outreach team for what to do. And we were trying to explore -- and to this day, it was so funny. I just saw Angie yesterday, or two days ago, who took over my position there. And she's like, "We're still trying to figure out this mass texting thing," because the database that they use, it's so outdated, it just doesn't allow for that. So that's something that we've just been exploring. Also met with some of the county emergency management directors to kind of talk more about farmworkers and how they can be included in their plans. And we hit a lot of walls with that because there was turnover. We would make one relationship and then that person would leave and we would ask for one thing, and they would say that it was. Like Code Red, "Oh, yes, it's in Spanish." Well, after further, you know, because we were like, we can show farmworkers how to sign up for Code Red. That's an infrastructure that exists. You don't need to create and recreate the wheel. But when we realized it's actually not in Spanish, you could sign up. And if your phone's in Spanish, like the instructions, things will come. But if that particular message is being sent out in English, it doesn't translate it the way that it's inputted. So, we discovered a lot of issues, but I felt like we didn't resolve. I felt like we weren't really able to resolve those issues in the end. And I think to this day it's still a problem. And then COVID, and then the pandemic happened and that exposed even more. I mean, it just exposed all the cracks in the system.
Sophie Therber [00:55:25] Were there any ways, specifically with Internet accessibility and communication and just having access to messaging in Spanish, that any lessons that you and your organization have learned from your time dealing with the hurricanes that have carried over and applied to the way that you're addressing the pandemic?
Natalie Rivera [00:55:46] Yes, so when I first started, I wanted to incorporate, you know, okay, farmworkers have Internet, let's also look at systems that provide emergency communication and I started exploring that as part of my role and realized that, again, I just continue to realize that all the county systems really have a challenge when messages are inputted into their mass texting system that they aren't going through in Spanish. I mean, again, I didn't explore every single one. But, you know, we learn that some groups do Facebook and they will post bilingual messages, but maybe the county doesn't have access to someone that's translating the documents. So they're only posting in English. So I didn't do -- there needs to be a more official study done on this, but it's...yeah, there needs to be something more done because I feel like, it just wasn't, I just feel like it's still not resolved at all. I mean, I think if we had another -- and we were talking about it last year, like, freaking out because, you know, this pandemic's coming, but how can we prepare our sites better? Because it's now working for the four NC Farmworker Health Program. It's like even their capacity with their specific funding isn't completely filling that gap, either there is some onus on our emergency management, you know, on our emergency management programs within the state and within the counties to really look at this and dive deeper, that we have a huge population of Spanish speakers and, or monolingual Spanish speakers. And we're not -- I don't think we're filling the gap, but, you know. I don't know. I don't know what to do. Episcopal Farmworker Ministries, I talked to Lariza a while back about this, and they did get a mass texting system, but it's very local to their area. And she said it to me again. She was like, "We need something that statewide or at least the county, because we can't keep --" you know, they relay the messages through their system. But it's just unfortunate that that system at the county level couldn't just be inclusive of everyone, that they have to replicate it so that it does work. Yeah.
Sophie Therber [00:58:20] And you mentioned the need for a study about this, but just in general, if you and your organization to have more supports to address this issue, what would, what would those be and what would that look like?
Natalie Rivera [00:58:34] I mean, I think like if we had a position that was a permanent full-time position, really strategizing and focusing on emergency response for farm workers, and then that person could have a seat at the table on the greater emergency plan statewide, I think that would be ideal. I don't know. It takes a lot to approve a position like that. And while we might have all this additional funding during this pandemic, that isn't going to necessarily continue in the next year or two. So if you don't have continuous funding, I guess it's hard to make a permanent position available because you have to base it off of what you would normally get. So that's kind of my understanding from my office that I'm learning about. So, I could see that. And it would also just be nice if, you know, I'm sure there's other ways around it. If there was sort of an equity person that really had to focus on equity and inclusion at the emergency management, that could just make sure that, because it's not, you know, it's not just farm workers, there's a lot of vulnerable populations that need an eye and support and they need to have a voice as well. So, I'm sure there's lots of ways to go about it. I do think more and more offices are moving towards a focus on equity. And you know, but I think a lot of us, maybe a lot of people may not. It's a concept that I don't know that everyone grasped...It's odd. You'd think so, but I think people like to try to make their own definitions of what equity is, and that's not really how it works. You really need to talk with the community and learn what's needed, what barriers there are and how to break down those barriers. You can't just decide, "well, I think this would make it more equitable," and, you know, anyway.
Sophie Therber [01:00:46] Right. That totally makes sense, and that's a really interesting point. Is there anything else that you would like to add before I stop the recording?
Natalie Rivera [01:00:58] Man. I think, I appreciate the time to talk about this and reflect and it was really interesting connecting what I, you know, the journey that I've been on. So it's kind of funny that that's a piece of this project is a personal journey and then also just farmworker health. Thinking about the project I'm doing now and I guess how much it relates and how much some of my work is sort of influenced by that experience, being in a state of emergency, I mean, and now we are again, in a state of emergency, but it's the whole state. Yeah, I just appreciate it and I think, you know, there was a lot of partners during that time, there's a lot of groups that did a lot of amazing work as well. Farmworker Ministries, I know Kinston Community Health Center was doing a lot in their community. And it's you know, that that's what it takes. Just everybody, everybody coming together. But it I don't think it's been -- I think they're still pretty big gaps, it's surprising after a few years. And now we have the pandemic. So, yeah, that's it. That's all I got, right?
Sophie Therber [01:02:09] Yeah. It is kind of interesting to conceptualize the pandemic in relation to other disasters that you have experienced. So thank you so much for your time and explaining to me your story. I'm going to go ahead and stop the recording really quickly.
End of the interview.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Trabajadores de servicios de salud
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Esta entrevista de historia oral fue realizada por Sophie Therber con la entrevistada Natalie Rivera vía Zoom el 5 de agosto de 2021. Natalie es de la zona rural de Carolina del Norte y ha estado trabajando con comunidades inmigrantes desde la universidad. En la entrevista, ella habla de sus numerosos roles en organizaciones dedicadas a la salud y el bienestar de los migrantes. El tema central de esta entrevista es la participación de Natalie en el Programa de Salud del Trabajador Agrícola y su experiencia ayudando a los trabajadores agrícolas a mitigar la pandemia del COVID y el clima extremo, al igual que otros desafíos tales como la educación sobre el VIH, el acceso a internet y la comunicación en español relacionada con emergencias. Natalie describe su experiencia atendiendo desastres tales como el COVID y los huracanes, al abordar la necesidad de establecer protocolos para atender desastres y explica cómo, en algunas ocasiones, las comunidades de inmigrantes no reciben la ayuda que necesitan para enfrentar estos desastres. Ella hace énfasis en la forma en que las comunidades pueden unirse para alcanzar grandes logros ante la adversidad.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Natalie Rivera por Sophie Therber, 05 August 2021, R-1003, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
COVID-19; Trabajadores agrícolas; Salud; Cambio climático; Programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios
Es: Transcripción
Sophie Therber [00:00:02] My name is Sophie Therber, and I'm interviewing Natalie Rivera. Today is August 5th, 2021, and the time is 8:41 a.m. Natalie, thank you so much for agreeing to participate in this. And just to start, can you tell me where you're from and just a little bit about that area?
Natalie Rivera [00:00:26] I'll turn my video off, just to help us out a little bit. Where I'm from, as far as ...Give me a little more information on that.
Sophie Therber [00:00:35] Yeah, sure. So, where did you grow up? Where do you live now?
Natalie Rivera [00:00:40] Okay, yeah, so I was born and raised in North Carolina, primarily in the Piedmont region. I grew up in that area and then ended up going to university at UNC Wilmington and then lived in Wilmington about, gosh, like, 13 years, just recently moved back to Piedmont area, specifically to Mebane. But I've pretty much been in North Carolina my whole life.
Sophie Therber [00:01:14] And what has influenced your decision to stay and continue living in North Carolina?
Natalie Rivera [00:01:22] I think I always wanted to leave. Not even, maybe, permanently, but just, mainly I have family here and I think probably why I stick around. After college, I really got into outreach and farmworker health and really ended up just loving the work and staying for that reason. I really loved my job and everything. So, I mean, that's really the main reason I've stayed.
Sophie Therber [00:02:03] How did you first get involved in outreach and farmworker health?
Natalie Rivera [00:02:08] So I did my undergrad at UNC Wilmington, double-major Spanish and communication studies, so I was, you know, learning Spanish and I did an internship with this place in Wilmington called Centro Latino. Well, Centro Latino under a broader organization called Amigos Internacional. And they did that internship. I got to work with a lot of different people. And the main purpose was sort of a resource center for Latinos and for immigrants in the community would come, anything that was needed, paperwork, looking for jobs, reading through their mail, like refers to resources, everything. And I just kind of really enjoyed the work, ended up staying there for another year through an AmeriCorps access service program and got to dive a little bit deeper in understanding the immigrant community in North Carolina, especially Mexican and Central American immigrants, and kind of learning their stories. I realized all of the challenges with our broken immigration system and just wanted to continue doing that work. But I'm also, being from rural North Carolina, just kind of had a special interest in learning more about, I guess, sort of agriculture, farming and sort of where -- I didn't quite because, I was more of an urban area, so I didn't quite see where our immigrant community and agriculture sort of intersect. So I ended up, after I graduated, applying for a fellowship through Student Action with Farmworkers, based in Durham and the Fellowship basically gives students that are from North Carolina, from rural North Carolina. They choose, for the fellowship and for internship program, they choose kind of a mixed group, like rural North Carolina or farmworker families or had worked in farm work. So I got chosen for the fellowship and was placed at an organization called the Farmworkers Project, or we call it El Proyecto. That's in Benton, North Carolina. And that's when I really started to dive in and learn about farm workers. So in more of the context. I was looking and also learning about public health, kind of trying to find a way to also tie in the Spanish that had learned and also look for ways to better serve the community, and really fell in love with public and community health. So ended up doing that for a while. But I'll stop there. I can keep going with the whole story of life story until now, but yeah. I'll pause just for a second, if you have another question
Sophie Therber [00:05:17] Okay, yeah. And I'd love to hear more about what your journey has been like since then. But I do have a question. What was it like to learn Spanish and then be speaking another language in your professional life after having learned it?
Natalie Rivera [00:05:34] Yeah, it was. It was really challenging, I think. I don't think that I'm someone that was naturally good at another language, but I had done an exchange program and learned some there. And through getting to work at the Centro Latino. And definitely when I worked at the Farmworkers Project, all of my coworkers, my boss, everyone spoke Spanish so was very immersed and they were so nice and graceful to me. I think one thing that helped is focusing on certain topics and learning all the vocab. And so I got really good at learning specific topics and everything for it. Like I was a HIV educator at Farmworker's Project and it was nice, as I just said, one area to focus on and can really improve the Spanish that way. But eventually you get the hang of it and it gets more and more comfortable and it feels very natural. So there's definitely times where it was a struggle, though.
Sophie Therber [00:06:38] Yeah. Did you say that you were working with HIV in farmworkers?
Natalie Rivera [00:06:45] Yeah, it was an HIV educator.
Sophie Therber [00:06:47] Okay, HIV educator. What was that like? What kind of responsibilities did you have in that role?
Natalie Rivera [00:06:52] Yeah, so I basically, it was pretty easy. I was given a flip chart, so I was already kind of pre-prepared for me, and myself and another outreach worker, as we were called, really, we went out. And after we would do initial visits with farm workers where we do like health assessments and referred to the clinic and other resources, then my coworker and I would follow up and she would do a pesticide education series and then I would do the HIV. And I really liked [it] because I got trained on popular education, so I would do different things to be really interactive because, you know, it's a tough topic. And even coming from my background, that's pretty conservative and didn't even get a lot of -- any sex education in school at all, so it was it was like I also became really passionate about it at the same time. It's so important because I realized, like, maybe a lot of people aren't getting this. So we try to just, you know, didn't want to assume that no one knew what this was, but just use it as an opportunity to have a conversation and grow a relationship with farm workers that were there working. And it was fun and it was we would make it both of our conversations entertaining and interactive. Hopefully, folks could learn from it. But it also could be just something to do after work. It was overall a really good experience doing that. I kind of forgot, now, that part, but I'm glad that we're talking about it.
Sophie Therber [00:08:39] Right, that's so interesting in that you were able to take something that people don't normally talk [about], I mean, like you said, not having a lot of sex education in school, and kind of make it into a more fun conversation and learning experience for people.
Natalie Rivera [00:08:53] Yeah, absolutely.
Sophie Therber [00:08:56] Do you feel that there have been any similarities with your role working as an HIV educator to your role now because of the pandemic?
Natalie Rivera [00:09:10] I think I may have to...I may need to fast forward a little bit and tell you what I've done since then.
Sophie Therber [00:09:16] OK, that would be great.
Natalie Rivera [00:09:18] I wonder if that might help. So, I'm finishing my fellowship there. I just really fell in love with work, fell in love with community health in general. I also did a...I got to do a community health project, so I was there [and] ended up where I just went in to a farmworker camp and met with a small group of farm workers. And the idea was just to ask them, "Hey, what do you want to learn about? What do you need?" So, again, like using that popular education, using this community health model of really asking what's needed with no intentions in mind. And I remember just loving that concept of just asking, "Hey, I'm here, I'm a resource. I need to do this. So what do you need me to do for you?" And ended up, the group wanted to learn about, like contact dermatitis because they were working in tobacco and were getting a lot of, we get a lot of rashes and scabs. And I would say I got to learn about that and got to work with the medical provider at the time to develop some curriculum. So I feel like that in itself, that piece led me into wanting to pursue my master's in public health. And then it also made me want to continue just the work in general of outreach. So when I moved back to Wilmington, I had known that the North Carolina Farmworker Health Program, who partially funds the Farmworkers Project, was working. I knew that they had been looking for potentially opening a new site down in Pender County, which wasn't too far from where I was living in Wilmington. And I reached out to them and I said, "hey, if you guys are ever planning to open anything or want to do anything, like, I would just love to be a part of whatever I can do." And so that actually led to... that was kind of funny because I've done lots of internships, fellowships and everything at this point, but they came back and like, "well, would you want to intern for the summer?" And I'm like, "you know what? Fine, I'll do whatever it takes. I just want to get into this work." So [I] ended up interning for the summer at the local Pender County Health Department and working very closely with the cooperative extension, who at that time also had a pesticide educator, so I was kind of familiar with that work because I've worked with another pesticide person in another county. Worked closely with her and did that internship for the whole summer, it was full-time. And I went with her to visit some of the farms where she did pesticide education. So, I started mapping out where all the farms were, where the camps were, mapping out all the resources, all the clinics. I was thinking, like, "What does Farmworkers Project do? How do they do their outreach? I need to just replicate that model." So, by the end of it, I was like, "well, this was great. But, you know, I want to do more." Ended up, NC Farmworker Health said, "well, what if we offered you a position of the outreach coordinator role and we paid you for about eight months, and during that time you applied for our official grant and then you could start the program there?" That was in, I think it was 2012 or 2013, maybe. So, nine, or however many years ago. I don't know what year we're in, but it was a long time ago. That's really where it all started. I was there for about eight years, in that role. We grew tremendously, worked with the health department, ended up kind of outgrowing the health department and moved the program over to a community health center that was like down the street. That was here before I left. We were there for several years. And then we started a mobile clinic. We started, just all kinds of services. Dental services, worked with optometry services, just tried to, as much as we can, making a robust program. And right before I left, this incredible person started working with us -- she's a nurse -- and running our mobile clinic. And I just knew, I was -- oh, then we also extended and open another satellite site. But anyway, so I just knew that she...I was like, "I hope, I wish she could take the program for me" because I think I was just kind of ready. And I'd just finished my master's in public health. I did it online through UNC, and I was just kind of ready. It just felt like I'd done everything I needed to, and maybe somebody else could come in and have kind of a fresh look on it. So I got really lucky, and she took over my position. That was last year, in 2020 I left. And it was really hard and sad to leave, but it was just...it felt really good in the moment to have her and have all the other staff that was there. But I think...going very back to your question and thinking about what about that initial position fellowship...I think I learned the most from that experience doing that community-based work where you just ask what's needed. You don't really have an intention. You don't really an agenda. Because sometimes, even with public health, we can get sort of tunnel vision. This is the project I need to do. This is what, like, "oh, I know. I have to do HIV education and you need education. But I really liked that freedom, that opportunity to be really open. And I feel like that's a theme we would keep throughout that new program, we ended up calling it Manos Unidas, was the outreach program that was created in Pender County. And it served 10 counties. Really, that was always a theme with everyone that was hired to work with. Our vision is that we don't need to exist. We're here to fill a gap and a barrier that exists right now. But we're just here to serve. And that's something I learned from AmeriCorps, too. It's just all about service. Empowering people is important. And so, yeah, I feel like that's where I really learned a lot from all that. And thinking about my role, and I'm going into [your] question about my role right now. But I guess I should pause because I'm telling you quite a bit with this story.
Sophie Therber [00:16:12] No, that's all really great. It sounds like your job has just changed so much from your first involvement with Manos Unidas and just asking people what they need, and now having kind of a more public health-focused role with the Farmworker Health Program. And I would love to hear more about what you're doing now. So go ahead, and you can continue.
Natalie Rivera [00:16:35] Yeah. I worked at the Farmworkers Project with the HIV project and then moved, and we started the Manos Unidas in in Pender County, and then from there -- and that was funded by the North Carolina Farmworker Health Program; actually, both of those sites are funded by them. It's just a different area. So, left that position and actually had some plans to take some time off and do some traveling. I was excited, you know. But unfortunately, the pandemic started and we were all stopped in our tracks, right? Any plans that anybody had, that was it. We needed to stay put. So, I was sitting there thinking, you know, this is going on, I have a degree in public health, I need to -- obviously, first of all, I'm going to find a job and I want to find a job at this point. And I didn't know quite what that was. And I just started looking around and something with the COVID response and found this position as the Internet Connectivity Project coordinator with the North Carolina Farmworker Health Program, who I had known for all these years and had funded different areas where I had worked and were great funders, very involved with each and any of the sites I worked with. I thought, "well, let me see what this is about," interviewed with them, got hired, and was super excited...supposed to be a six-month position. The idea is with COVID, everyone is at home. Everybody's grounded. Farm workers are more isolated than they had ever been. And outreach workers weren't really able to go out first and do what they do best, [which] is go out to the farms, into the camps and do outreach. NC Farmworker Health Program came up with the idea that we should try to make sure farm workers have Internet connectivity as a way to do phone calls and telemedicine and all that. And so that was my goal, coming in. We've done all kinds of different models to figure that out, and the first thing to do, going back to that incorporating community feedback, is been working closely with East Carolina University, who's doing the monitoring evaluation for the for the project and for the Internet connectivity project itself. And we just actually went out earlier this week, funny story, to the old site where I used to work. And we did qualitative interviews with farm workers to get their feedback on Internet connectivity and how some of these different projects are going, where we put Internet routers and different farms, different camps. And so trying to incorporate that into the project as we go, because it's also been an emergency. So it wasn't like we could just do an assessment, wait, and then implement. We did a process evaluation because we were in an emergency, and we had to just get things going to the best of our knowledge, which was somewhat...Because I had done outreach, I really understood farmworker housing, and kind of how isolated it can be, and different ways that we had even gotten the Internet going into doing our mobile clinics. So I wasn't totally off with with getting things started. But in understanding that relationship between outreach workers and farm workers is a close relationship. So one of our models is the lending program that the outreach workers actually bring hotspots out to the farm workers and borrow them. And it's -- not only it was a way to literally reconnect, like come out, we're going to bring this -- but also build that relationship. And it's like a whole ‘nother, and what I've heard and the feedback we've heard from outreach workers is that it offered another incentive for building that relationship, another resource, and that it has been helpful, so far, as we're getting that feedback. Yeah.
Sophie Therber [00:21:00] Yeah, I appreciate you taking the time to just tell me all the different positions that you've had and how your jobs and what you've been focusing on has changed so much throughout your whole career. That's really interesting. Can you tell me a little bit more about -- so, you were saying that you went and had qualitative interviews with the farm workers to discuss their experience with Internet connectivity. How were they reacting, and what was their experience with that?
Natalie Rivera [00:21:32] Yes, so are the students working with us, Paula. She's just awesome, got to meet her the other night. So she had so far only been doing because we started the project at the end of last semester or the end of last year. Last season, really, we weren't able to interview farmworker's before going left in the season was over. So we ended up our first goal was to interview the outreach workers because in general, the outreach workers can speak a little bit to some of farmworkers, some of the feedback they're getting. And so that gave us enough information to just continue what we're doing and adjust things as needed. When the season started back this year, we were ready to start interviewing farmworkers as soon as they arrived in the area. She had interviewed about seven or eight farm workers over the phone, and they met with her to see how it was going. And it was just very positive feedback. "This is great. We love it," you know? And I'm like, "Okay, give me some critical feedback. I mean, something." So, we ended up...I needed to do a site visit or this other model, so there's the lending program and there's another model we're calling the Internet hub. And this particular model, it was a very large camp: 80 farmworkers in one location, 40 in another, 40 in another. It was a little bit challenging to just provide hot spots to everyone. So, we did an Internet hub model where we put a really big router on this outdoor picnic shelter area. So it was a centralized location where anyone can go and get Internet. I wanted to see how that was going because it was done through more of a grower-crew leader relationship, versus the outreach workers and farm workers. Plus, since COVID had started, the local outreach program, Manos Unidas, had been having issues visiting that camp because there was a lot of fear around COVID still, and outbreaks. And I'm sure, talking to Gayle and Nicandro [other people interviewed for this project], you got a lot of this, but we planned to go together, and they talked about telemedicine. And so it would be with the crew that are coming with us, and it would be an opportunity to reopen the door. And then I could just get some more casual anecdotal conversations about Internet, and then Paula could do the official interview. It actually went really well. She said, "these are some of the best interviews I've had because it just so much more engaging in-person." I haven't gotten to talk to her yet about how what she learned in those interviews, because I myself just wanted to just walk around, and I talked to groups and heard different things. The feedback that I got just doing that, which is in our official IRB, it just helps me with the project, was the Internet hub...they didn't like that it didn't reach out to all the housing units. When they were inside, they couldn't get Internet because part of that is that those housing units are metal buildings, so it's just really not going to penetrate through the buildings, the signal. And we kind of knew that going on in, but just wanted to see what it would be like. So that was one of the good critical feedback. And then also that when everyone gets on the Internet, it slows down. Again, it was really good to get that feedback. And then everyone said, "It's nice. I had a data plan and I was able to get a smaller data plan because now I can go out there and I can connect to the Internet and I can make a phone call." So folks did really like having the Internet, but the quality wasn't as good as it could have been. And that was an interesting thing, because the grower had wanted to do a better Internet like the fiber, but the service provider wasn't available to that particular area, which is something we're learning about and finding out that really, most of these migrants do not have the option of, through the Internet service provider, to have...You know, we go to a residential home and the Internet has been there for years. You just move in and you call and you get your set up. But like with migrant housing, it's never been set up. They call it "the last mile," getting that line and it just hasn't happened, hasn't been talked about before. That's why we went with this Internet hub. And it's like a cellular network model, so it feeds off of cell towers. But, anyway. Any questions?
Sophie Therber [00:26:34] Yeah, that's really interesting, especially the part about how you had this idea to use the Internet hubs, and they enjoyed having access to the Internet, but it just wasn't really meeting their needs to have Internet inside of their homes and things like that. So, is this program something that's just a specific sites where farmworkers live, or is it in a certain county, or is it just at one sit hubs? What is the extent of this program?
Natalie Rivera [00:27:01] Yes, so we're statewide with it, anywhere that's interested in the state can can sign up. We have as far as the hotspot lending partners, as I call them, outreach programs that are the clinics that we're working with to distribute hot spots. We have about, about nine partners doing that and about a little over three hundred hot spots in their hands. And then I'm working on a report right now figuring out how many of those hot spots were distributed to farm workers and how many farmers had access to those hot spots. When we did our report back in April, it was it was pretty high the how many had been distributed. But we know we know that it's not going to be one hundred percent. So I'm waiting to see what that looks like. And then we have the Internet hubs. We've only done about 14 of those so far. But it's only on about six different farms across the state, so trying to work on that uptake. However, the process of getting those ordering and getting those installed is like...I mean, we're looking at an 11 week, like, lag time. It's pretty -- it's definitely slowing up, maybe, what I would have hoped we could have done. And, like I said, it's just one option. And then the other piece that is also a statewide option is we work closely with the North Carolina Institute of Agromedicine, who we contracted with to do a reimbursement program for farms, where if the farmer is interested in going through that process of talking with Internet service providers, getting it set up in their area, then they'll actually reimburse the farmer for the router and the services and installation of that. And that's then about five farms, too. But the only trick with that is...some of the farms that have wanted to do it actually found out and hit a wall and said, "The Internet service company is not coming out to the farm, and so what can we do?" So, when that happens, depending on the size of the pants, we refer them to either a local health clinic that has hotspots, or that's when we started the Internet hub because it was a couple -- this particular farm, it was so big that we were trying to find another solution that would not require, like, 20 hotspots. So, yes, it really is across the state, and then because you were running in all these infrastructure issues, we're working closely with the North Carolina Broadband Infrastructure Office to talk about, well, how can we influence and promote digital inclusivity and that the last mile does get to migrant housing because that is the long-term solution, right? That's the long term solution because cellular network data isn't the best. It's not the gold standard, you know? So that's the, sort of, fourth thing that we're doing is trying to just overall work on infrastructure. But yeah, but it is statewide.
Sophie Therber [00:30:31] One thing that stands out to me is all the different partnerships that you have with places around the state, like you mentioned, NC Broadband, you're working directly with the growers at the places where the farm workers are living, agromedicine. So, what has it been like for you to create and maintain these partnerships with so many different stakeholders?
Natalie Rivera [00:30:52] Yeah, you know, it's one of the things you learn in your MPH school is doing that stakeholder matrix, so maybe I started out trying to do one, but it's more like -- I think they have you do that matrix over and over because they just want to get it in your head like a natural way that you keep in contact with everyone. Like what's their purpose? We knew the agromedicine's really good with growers and that relationship. So, that's why we ended up going with them for that contract. I check in with the health clinics. We do quarterly reports, so far we're going to go on the second time this year. So everyone's very busy. So I try not to do too much of a check in, but I also kind of regularly try to schedule meetings to keep myself available. I just did a meeting with one of our partners that's a little more focused on seasonal families that I wanted to know more about that because a lot of our work's been focused on migrant workers and living in migrant housing. And this partner happened to do more work with seasonal families and reached out and said, "Can we supply these hotspots to students that the schools aren't able to supply?" And so we had a whole conversation about it and they've been doing that. But, yeah, I just try to check in and then there is something else we're doing, which me and several partners are -- oh, yeah. So I held this series of meetings in February called Assessing the Digital Divide for Farmworkers. And I just invited all the partners that I've been working with to meet and talk more about what we can do to solve this problem, like what's needed, what the farmworkers need, that sort of things. And we did two meetings the result of that was that maybe we should keep meeting and maybe we need to sort of look and partner on the whole agricultural community and that be our approach to better broadband for agricultural communities, because there's so many benefits in the farms having better Internet -- from the technology they can use on the field, just everything, payroll systems, everything being online -- to the farmers and families themselves, maybe having better access to Internet for telemedicine, their overall health. And then the same thing with farm workers. With better access to telemedicine, better access resources, emotional well-being, being far from their family. So, right now, we're looking at an approach that brings everyone together. And so probably around October, we're going to start quarterly meetings called the North Carolina Agricultural Digital Alliance. And that's another way I'm thinking that partners will come together and continue to talk about this topic. And the broadband infrastructure office has supported the idea that they would take feedback from this group, joined some of the meetings when they can. So that's another way we're looking to engage partners. It's been a lot of it's not a lot of work. It is hard to keep up with everybody, but it's worth it. So it's really important to do.
Sophie Therber [00:34:16] That's so incredible that you're able to kind of take the people in different groups that you're working with now and form the digital alliance, and that's really exciting that that's something that's on the horizon for you and your organization. I'd like to switch gears -- oh, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. Go ahead.
Natalie Rivera [00:34:34] No. Yeah, I think it'll be great. And I'll say, we're looking at it being housed in the potentially cooperative extension who has local counties. So that'll be really nice to where we'll support it. But yeah. Yeah, go ahead.
Sophie Therber [00:34:54] Thank you for adding that. I would just like to switch gears and ask -- you've been working with farmworker communities for a long time, and have you had any kind of personal experience with natural disasters or extreme weather affecting these communities in the time that you've been working with them?
Natalie Rivera [00:35:12] Yeah, yes, absolutely, and I was like, "oh, yeah, we were supposed to talk about that, too." Yes, I think that's why Elizabeth or Gayle or somebody referred me to you. So, when I was the outreach coordinator or at the time program director at Manos Unidas, we obviously went through a couple of hurricanes. In particular, Hurricane Florence was pretty, just devastating. And we're really far east, so it really impacted the communities. We went through Hurricane Florence and then the follow-up hurricane and then the next year, I think it was Dorian or something. But yeah, we've definitely had that experience for sure, or had that experience.
Sophie Therber [00:36:04] And if you had to explain your experience with Hurricane Florence or any other natural disasters or extreme weather to somebody who had never experienced that kind of flooding damage, what would you -- how would you describe that to somebody?
Natalie Rivera [00:36:19] It's like, it's a lot. Like, every time I think about it, I don't...I get emotional about it because it you don't realize how devastating it is until it's over, because I feel like you're just in response mode. And I'm probably making it sound a certain way. But we were in we were actually at a conference, the group of us were at a conference in New Orleans, of all places, and flew back early from the conference, heard this was happening. And you know, and again, I'm telling this from my experience as the program director, outreach coordinator. But obviously, you know, the concern was, what are we doing? I got a call from the North Carolina Farmworker Health Program, and they were saying, "Hey, just wondering what you guys are doing for the farm workers in your area, like, do you have any protocol?" And I was like, "No, we don't!" I don't know. We don't know what to do. This isn't part of our...I mean, we have our role and we have all these different aspects of our health program, but not necessarily this kind of an emergency. And I never really realized what could happen out a little bit further from the coast with the river flooding. So we just started making -- we were like, okay, so we just started making phone calls. And our database system is not very efficient for mass texting or emails or phone calls. And so we just dived in and all of us, the ones that were at that conference flew back early. Luckily, I mean, my parents were amazing and drove down to Wilmington and boarded up my house so I didn't have to worry about that, and I actually flew in to Charlotte and they picked me up and I stayed with them. Like I said, I'm from the Piedmont area, so it's a little bit safer. And then most of my staff, the staff also evacuated. Some of them were living in Wilmington, some were living in Pender County. A lot of them evacuated up to Raleigh. So we're just kind of like sitting ducks. And in the meantime, we're all monitoring the local county emergency protocols and where shelters are. And they just did an amazing job. While everyone's just sitting there like, "What is going to happen to our homes and our community and everything?" And they would just sit in their hotel rooms or in their family rooms. And we were all off work. We found out, and we probably knew at that time, we were going to be getting paid for the fact that it's an emergency and we can't go to work. But none of them really had to do anything. But everybody really did a great job. We started a Google doc and just started throwing resources in it and calling everyone we could. But it was it was hard because we just didn't have an efficient system. And when it was all said and done, everybody is waiting to figure out when you go back. I finally -- and then it was just crazy that Highway 40 was closed down. Every entryway back to Wilmington into that area was closed. And I mean, it's just something like apocalyptic. I'm not the age where I've experienced the other devastating hurricanes in that area, either. And a lot of us weren't. So, this was very new to be in a lot of my staff as well. So I finally heard that [Highway] 421 was open and I hopped in a car with a friend. Actually my husband had already left my parents' house and he was on call to go to a shelter in Sampson County, because he was also working in the health -- it's so funny, he actually became a health educator for pesticides, but working for a cooperative extension in Sampson County. So, he got called in to go to a shelter and he had already left to do that. And so I hopped in the car with my friend an drove back to Wilmington. And right when we got back, I got a call from the Episcopal Farmworker Ministry who is like, amazing. You should interview them if you have a chance, with Lariza. And she said, "Hey, we've got all these.." -- They're a little further out, in Clinton, so they weren't impacted -- she could tell you how it impacted they were, but a little further inland, I guess. And they got these donations and everything, can we get them out to the farms? And all I knew was a lot of the roads were washed out, but we wanted to try to see what we can do and get out to some of these camps that we don't know what's going on. Now, luckily, this happened at the end of the season, a lot of the farm workers had gone home. I even found out later, like a whole group of farm workers actually just flew out before anything happened in our area. So we were like, we can't get in touch with anyone. We just need to go out and see what's going on. And we have these food donations, so a group of us had planned to go the next day. Some of us who live in Wilmington, some of us who were on the other side of the flooding, meet at our office and get the van now and then drive off to Clinton or wherever the office was, I forget if it's Dunn. Somewhere out there. And start distributing supplies. And a couple people were coming from Raleigh. The crazy thing is, is that same night, I think that same evening, the road 421 washed out again. And I remember my husband was took a video of the river, the river as it started to rise. And he was driving through it. And I'm like, "Oh my God." And he made it home safe so. So we were like, "Well, how the hell are we going to get to the office?" And so we found this other route and it took us -- what would normally take 45 minutes from Wilmington, it took, like, an hour and a half the way we had to go to get there. And then I had another staff person that -- I'll tell you what, we didn't end up going to the office, we ended up going all the way up to the Episcopal Farmworker Ministry where we're picking up supplies. And that was where it was really hard drive anyway for us. So I forget how long it took, but it took longer because we were constantly running into the roads that were closed because they were flooded out. And then, so we got there and one of my staff got to the office. He was telling me how all around he had to go to get the van. And I was like, "Oh, my God." And I'm like, "What are we doing? Am I supposed to be allowing the staff to do this?" Like, I was also kind of freaking out, like, I know we need to do this, but also we don't have any safety protocols. It's just, we were not prepared for this. But luckily, everyone was so willing and so helpful and it was the greatest staff. So we started picking up supplies and we started delivering it to the camps that we knew were in the area. And that's where it got really...Just doing that all day, and we had some of the information from the phone calls we'd made, but we went to a farm that we thought only had like 20 workers. And I only brought enough for that and showed up, and it was, like, 80 people there. And I was like, "Wait, you guys were here? You guys, you didn't get evacuated or something?" And it's still to this day, I'm trying to wrap my brain [around] why they didn't leave. They had flooding and they weren't able -- they were sort of stuck in their homes. At that point, there wasn't any flooding. But I was worried. I was worried about this particular camp because I do remember from two years before when we had that flooding the area, they said it got flooded, and it was with a new group for us. And so we didn't really know about them until after that happened. I was just kind of worried that they had been flooded out again. Apparently, I guess some of them had evacuated, but they had been returned. And everything was closed down, too, so if you're not racked in foods, then, you know, you're kind of stuck. We left, and actually, my husband was -- that day, he had come with us because he had gotten permission from his work to do this work as well. And it was actually both of us that were out, and we left and I was just like freaking out because I was thinking we didn't leave enough food, you know? And again, people are resilient, but it just didn't sit well because we couldn't get back to the ministries in time. And I called her and she was thinking about doing another delivery with her group the next day. But I ended up driving by a firehouse and I was like, "Oh, gosh, maybe they at least have water and we could go drop off the water." And I got out and I said, "Hey, are you all familiar with this with this camp of farm workers? We really wanted to bring -- do you have extra water, just bring over to them?" And they were like, "Oh, my gosh;" they knew about this group, but they also didn't realize they were still there. So was again, speaking of this isolation, I mean, it's just this incredible isolation that farmworkers experience when they're here on their contract, it's really not safe. So they were the sweetest group of women. They said, "You know what, we actually have all this hot food we're serving, and how many plates do you need?" And I was like, "You know, like I think we need like a hundred plates." And so they said, "Don't worry about it. We're going to put their plates together right now. We're going to go deliver them." And I can't even remember if we delivered them. Who knows? I think they just went over and they said, "We'll deliver them hot food tomorrow and Sunday," or something like that. And I was like, oh, so just grateful. And obviously, I don't know how when maybe the food wasn't perfect. It wasn't maybe the most culturally appropriate food. I mean, but it was something and it was just a really great experience. But coming back, we realized that other route we took to get in was closed. So, we had to drive all the way up Highway 40 and then cut in and go through Jacksonville. Again, what would take 45 minutes from the office to get home took us 3 hours. And it was a group of us, two different vehicles doing that. And then we waited, and the next day I think some of the groups that were on the other side of the flooding kept delivering. And it finally subsided where we could get in through at least one route, and we kept delivering food and water and working with the local shelters. It was an overwhelming experience because we were seeing how unprepared we were and how vulnerable farmworkers are during a disaster like this and how bad the flooding is in that area. So, it was a mess.
Sophie Therber [00:47:44] Wow, that's really incredible. I mean, I was honestly at the edge of my seat when you were talking about, like, all the road closures and having to make all of these backup plans and change what you were doing, and all of these different people, like the Episcopal Farmworkers Ministry and the local shelters and the woman with the hot food coming together at the last minute, basically, to address these issues. So. That's really incredible to hear about.
Natalie Rivera [00:48:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was a definitely a group community effort.
Sophie Therber [00:48:16] And just hearing you talk about the devastation, you were saying the conditions were almost apocalyptic, the isolation that farm workers are experiencing and just how vulnerable they are. What stands out to you, if you had to pick just a couple, the biggest challenges in addressing this issue for the communities that you were working with?
Natalie Rivera [00:48:39] Yeah, so after that experience, we were obviously like, "We need to set up protocols, we need to do more when something like this happens again." It was even, I do remember even one instance we had gone back, we were even all back in the office and Red Cross came in and they said, "We have all these cleaning supplies, can you give us some locations?" And I was like, I can't give you -- I'm remembering how it went, but I gave them some neighborhoods. I didn't want to give exact addresses because we can't do that. But I said, "You can go into this neighborhood and this neighborhood and just drive." Because that's really what they would do anyway. They would just go to neighborhoods and drive around and drop off supplies. So I did that. And then the next day I got a phone call from the Red Cross, a different person, and they said, "Hey, I heard you're really good contact for doing, like figuring out where to go. Can you give me some locations?" And I was like, "I literally just did that yesterday." And it was just frustrating because I know this stuff is going to happen, but it just wasn't efficient and a lot of different things. And I didn't feel like we were in the right place where we could just respond. After that happened, we started thinking about what we had capacity for and what we needed to really raise up to our community for filling in the holes. You have emergency management, but you also realize, like not a lot of communication goes out in Spanish, and maybe not everyone has access to that. And what's crazier is obviously now a couple of years later, doing this Internet project, realizing a huge hole in the whole thing was that farmworker's, a lot of times don't have Internet or don't have cell phone signal to even get the message. That's really just bizarre. Now, in this position, that's something I've talked about a lot, is how it helps with emergency communication. And many of the farms I talked to said the same thing. They said this is this is crucial because during Florence, we weren't able to communicate as well as or more immediately, they would have to go out. You have to go out to the farm and out to the camp, a lot of times, to know what workers need. Obviously, the farms know a little more because they're their employees. So there obviously should be a better sense of responsibility there. If you ever interview anyone else, Melissa Bailey out on another area with Kinston Community Health Center, played a role or received communication for a group of farm workers that actually really did get flooded in. And there was this whole miscommunication that happened. And, you know, the grower didn't evacuate the workers, and they literally got flooded in. And you can Google this and see pictures of farm workers like waist deep evacuating the camp. We didn't see that in our area, but I know Melissa Bailey could talk more about that and what happened. And so that's when we realize this is far from over. Farmworkers are vulnerable. They're already vulnerable. We already see just so many, you know, there's a lot of power dynamics, and it's not very normal for an employer to have that much power or responsibility for their workers or the nature of our H-2A contracts puts a lot of responsibility on the grower to make sure the workers are safe. And if the grower isn't fulfilling their role and doing that, the farmworkers are one hundred percent vulnerable. And if the infrastructure isn't there, Internet and cell phone service and money to buy a cell phone. And if that's not there, then that's a whole ‘nother issue. And farms need to have evacuation plans for their workers. So a lot of it was we knew, and thinking about what we could do as an outreach program, we knew a lot of it was beyond our capacity in our scope and even our funding. So we did apply for some funding from some grants that came out right after Florence. And the first one we did, we wanted to do, kind of, an assessment and do interviews with farm workers to see what we could do and what was needed. We were able to hire someone to really focus on that project. And they interviewed with farm workers. And some of the things we learned about was like, you know, even just they were going to like the vehicle that was there and charging their phones. And so we realized maybe battery-powered chargers would be important and flashlights. And so if they did stay in their house, like if there was a low flood risk then and they weren't in a flood zone, then at least they could have different forms of power. And we tried to think about education we could do. We also set protocols for our outreach team for what to do. And we were trying to explore -- and to this day, it was so funny. I just saw Angie yesterday, or two days ago, who took over my position there. And she's like, "We're still trying to figure out this mass texting thing," because the database that they use, it's so outdated, it just doesn't allow for that. So that's something that we've just been exploring. Also met with some of the county emergency management directors to kind of talk more about farmworkers and how they can be included in their plans. And we hit a lot of walls with that because there was turnover. We would make one relationship and then that person would leave and we would ask for one thing, and they would say that it was. Like Code Red, "Oh, yes, it's in Spanish." Well, after further, you know, because we were like, we can show farmworkers how to sign up for Code Red. That's an infrastructure that exists. You don't need to create and recreate the wheel. But when we realized it's actually not in Spanish, you could sign up. And if your phone's in Spanish, like the instructions, things will come. But if that particular message is being sent out in English, it doesn't translate it the way that it's inputted. So, we discovered a lot of issues, but I felt like we didn't resolve. I felt like we weren't really able to resolve those issues in the end. And I think to this day it's still a problem. And then COVID, and then the pandemic happened and that exposed even more. I mean, it just exposed all the cracks in the system.
Sophie Therber [00:55:25] Were there any ways, specifically with Internet accessibility and communication and just having access to messaging in Spanish, that any lessons that you and your organization have learned from your time dealing with the hurricanes that have carried over and applied to the way that you're addressing the pandemic?
Natalie Rivera [00:55:46] Yes, so when I first started, I wanted to incorporate, you know, okay, farmworkers have Internet, let's also look at systems that provide emergency communication and I started exploring that as part of my role and realized that, again, I just continue to realize that all the county systems really have a challenge when messages are inputted into their mass texting system that they aren't going through in Spanish. I mean, again, I didn't explore every single one. But, you know, we learn that some groups do Facebook and they will post bilingual messages, but maybe the county doesn't have access to someone that's translating the documents. So they're only posting in English. So I didn't do -- there needs to be a more official study done on this, but it's...yeah, there needs to be something more done because I feel like, it just wasn't, I just feel like it's still not resolved at all. I mean, I think if we had another -- and we were talking about it last year, like, freaking out because, you know, this pandemic's coming, but how can we prepare our sites better? Because it's now working for the four NC Farmworker Health Program. It's like even their capacity with their specific funding isn't completely filling that gap, either there is some onus on our emergency management, you know, on our emergency management programs within the state and within the counties to really look at this and dive deeper, that we have a huge population of Spanish speakers and, or monolingual Spanish speakers. And we're not -- I don't think we're filling the gap, but, you know. I don't know. I don't know what to do. Episcopal Farmworker Ministries, I talked to Lariza a while back about this, and they did get a mass texting system, but it's very local to their area. And she said it to me again. She was like, "We need something that statewide or at least the county, because we can't keep --" you know, they relay the messages through their system. But it's just unfortunate that that system at the county level couldn't just be inclusive of everyone, that they have to replicate it so that it does work. Yeah.
Sophie Therber [00:58:20] And you mentioned the need for a study about this, but just in general, if you and your organization to have more supports to address this issue, what would, what would those be and what would that look like?
Natalie Rivera [00:58:34] I mean, I think like if we had a position that was a permanent full-time position, really strategizing and focusing on emergency response for farm workers, and then that person could have a seat at the table on the greater emergency plan statewide, I think that would be ideal. I don't know. It takes a lot to approve a position like that. And while we might have all this additional funding during this pandemic, that isn't going to necessarily continue in the next year or two. So if you don't have continuous funding, I guess it's hard to make a permanent position available because you have to base it off of what you would normally get. So that's kind of my understanding from my office that I'm learning about. So, I could see that. And it would also just be nice if, you know, I'm sure there's other ways around it. If there was sort of an equity person that really had to focus on equity and inclusion at the emergency management, that could just make sure that, because it's not, you know, it's not just farm workers, there's a lot of vulnerable populations that need an eye and support and they need to have a voice as well. So, I'm sure there's lots of ways to go about it. I do think more and more offices are moving towards a focus on equity. And you know, but I think a lot of us, maybe a lot of people may not. It's a concept that I don't know that everyone grasped...It's odd. You'd think so, but I think people like to try to make their own definitions of what equity is, and that's not really how it works. You really need to talk with the community and learn what's needed, what barriers there are and how to break down those barriers. You can't just decide, "well, I think this would make it more equitable," and, you know, anyway.
Sophie Therber [01:00:46] Right. That totally makes sense, and that's a really interesting point. Is there anything else that you would like to add before I stop the recording?
Natalie Rivera [01:00:58] Man. I think, I appreciate the time to talk about this and reflect and it was really interesting connecting what I, you know, the journey that I've been on. So it's kind of funny that that's a piece of this project is a personal journey and then also just farmworker health. Thinking about the project I'm doing now and I guess how much it relates and how much some of my work is sort of influenced by that experience, being in a state of emergency, I mean, and now we are again, in a state of emergency, but it's the whole state. Yeah, I just appreciate it and I think, you know, there was a lot of partners during that time, there's a lot of groups that did a lot of amazing work as well. Farmworker Ministries, I know Kinston Community Health Center was doing a lot in their community. And it's you know, that that's what it takes. Just everybody, everybody coming together. But it I don't think it's been -- I think they're still pretty big gaps, it's surprising after a few years. And now we have the pandemic. So, yeah, that's it. That's all I got, right?
Sophie Therber [01:02:09] Yeah. It is kind of interesting to conceptualize the pandemic in relation to other disasters that you have experienced. So thank you so much for your time and explaining to me your story. I'm going to go ahead and stop the recording really quickly.
End of the interview.
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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R-1003 -- Rivera, Natalie.
Description
An account of the resource
This oral history interview was conducted by Sophie Therber with interviewee Natalie Rivera via Zoom on August 5, 2021. Natalie is from rural North Carolina and has been working with immigrant communities since college. This interview follows her many roles in organizations dedicated to immigrant health and well-being. The main focus of this interview is Natalie’s involvement with the Farmworker Health Program and her experience helping farmworkers mitigate the COVID pandemic and extreme weather, as well as other challenges such as HIV education, Internet access, and emergency-related communication in Spanish. Natalie describes her experience addressing disasters such as COVID and hurricanes, discussing the need to set protocols to address disasters and explains how sometimes immigrant communities do not receive the help that they need in the face of these disasters. She emphasizes the way that communities can come together to accomplish amazing feats in the face of adversity.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2021-08-05
Format
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R1003_Audio.mp3
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29193">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/decce8c2d756fe14a1bf86ccc3d1dcd7.mp3
c27a208c6ecf124492dff0c1245911d5
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/6224502c4d15ee13b9594af7c0cf2154.pdf
f7043036d12e27eb2b5dd6b393f6ad5c
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-1002
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
Fecha
2021-08-03
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Castillo, Marlene.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Non-Profit Organization Employees
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1998
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Rocky Mount -- North Carolina -- United States
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Nashville -- Nash County -- North Carolina
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Therber, Sophie.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
This oral history interview was conducted by Sophie Therber with interviewee Marlene Castillo via Zoom on August 2, 2021. The main focus is Marlene’s involvement with the Association of Mexicans in North Carolina (AMEXCAN) and her experience helping Latino immigrants mitigate the COVID pandemic and hurricanes. Marlene describes her experiencing managing AMEXCAN’s NC Latino COVID-19 Task Force, connecting a variety of stakeholders such as health departments, community-based organizations, community partners, and state leaders. A key part of Marlene’s role in addressing the COVID pandemic has to go to small businesses such as restaurants, flea markets, and stores to distribute crucial supplies and resources, as well as creating events to bring different providers together to distribute resources such as vaccines and dental screenings. She discusses the many different approaches that she and AMEXCAN have taken in order to provide as much help to immigrant communities as possible. Marlene emphasizes the need for collaboration in the face of adversity and the importance of community networks. The interviewer, Sophie Therber, is a senior at UNC Chapel Hill conducting research for her honor’s thesis in the Human Development and Family Studies department.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Marlene Castillo by Sophie Therber, 03 August 2021, R-1002, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29190
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Healthcare; Health; Climate Change; Community and social services and programs; COVID-19
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Sophie Therber [00:00:02] My name is Sophie Therber, I'm interviewing Marlene Castillo, and today is August 2nd, 2021. The time is 6:03 PM. Marlene, thank you so much for allowing me to interview you for this project.
Marlene Castillo [00:00:13] Thank you so much for having me.
Sophie Therber [00:00:15] So just to start, where are you from and where did you grow up?
Marlene Castillo [00:00:19] So I'm from Nash County, so right down from Pitt County. I'm from Rocky Mount, North Carolina. I've been here my whole life. I was born and raised here in Nashville -- Nashville, North Carolina. People get confused with Nashville, Tennessee, but Nashville, North Carolina and Rocky Mount, North Carolina. And I've been here for 23 years. So, I've been here my whole life. I've went pre-K to high school, and then once I graduated from high school, I went to Greenville to East Carolina University, where I've been the past five years. I've been living in Pitt County for the, since up until last week, actually. I moved back to my hometown this past week. So I'm back in Rocky Mount.
Sophie Therber [00:01:13] Does your family still live in Rocky Mount?
Marlene Castillo [00:01:15] Yes.
Sophie Therber [00:01:17] Awesome, and what made you decide to go to -- what did you study when you were in college? Excuse me.
Marlene Castillo [00:01:22] I did university studies. So it's a combination. When I first came to Greenville, I wanted to be a nurse [laughs] like everyone else, but it's so competitive. So, I had to switch to public health. And then from public health, there [were] a little bit of complications just because of my mom's health and all that. So I wasn't able to complete the requirements and I didn't want to extend my time at school for another year. So I switched to university studies, which is a combination of all the classes I've taken throughout the years.
Sophie Therber [00:02:01] And you said that you started with an AMEXCAN in March of 2020. Can you just tell me a little bit about what that was like to be -- or, excuse me, I believe you said spring 2020. Can you tell me what that was like to be starting there kind of in the midst of everything changing with the pandemic?
Marlene Castillo [00:02:16] So, we were, I was interning with AMEXCAN first for my internship with school. And then, starting -- we were actually offered, near the end of my internship, we were offered a job to work as community health workers. So, we were out going out to the communities, going out to local businesses like stores, like shops and stuff like that, passing out PPE and information about COVID just because there wasn't really much aid for the Latino community. So, we were able to do that during my internship near the end, which was really amazing to experience that and get paid as well. [laughs] So, it was really nice experience. And then we, the internship ended and we had our, like, our break and they called me, and they were like, "Hey, would you like to come on board for the team?" Because I was also managing the NC Latino COVID-19 Task Force during my internship. I was helping the person in charge of the task force organize that and help her with the minutes and all the information that was shared. So, Juvencio, our executive director, asked if I wanted to stay on board and continue to work with the NC Latino COVID-19 Task Force in January. So I was able to join the AMEXCAN team in January of 2020. Nope -- 2021. I'm getting the dates confused because it's just been all a blur. [laughs]
Sophie Therber [00:03:56] That's okay. That totally makes sense. It's been a really long time that we've been in the pandemic and everything, so that definitely makes sense. Can you tell me a little bit more about what the task force does and what your role is with them?
Marlene Castillo [00:04:09] So the task force is a meeting is hosted every Monday morning at 11:00 a.m., and we have different stakeholders join our meetings from health departments, community-based organizations, community partners and state leaders. They join, they give updates about what's going on in each person's county, and they give us updates about how COVID's going in their county, any events they have planned. And just, we think, like, collaboration, ideas about events on how to combat COVID-19. In the beginning, it was more towards people getting tested because there was hesitancy of testing for the Latino community. But as time went on, the vaccine was available. It was about strategies on how to get the Latino community vaccinated. And that's what we're currently on right now, trying to get the community vaccinated, especially with the Delta variant that's going on right now. And we also have guest speakers join the first 30 minutes to speak a little bit about COVID-19 and ways to combat it or programs that are available thanks to COVID-19 that could help the Latino community and the marginalized populations.
Sophie Therber [00:05:36] And what is the process of reaching out to these guest speakers and stakeholders, what do you have to do to get other people involved in these meetings?
Marlene Castillo [00:05:44] So, I have to have to send them emails. [laughs] So that's what I'm working, I'm in charge of. I have to reach out to these, like, important people, honestly, from the federal to the state level to even community partners. I have to send them and email and ask them that we would like to have them join our Task Force meeting and share a little bit about COVID-19, like what's going on and to keep us informed and keep our community partners informed of everything that's happening.
Sophie Therber [00:06:17] So are the state and community partners are they -- is AMEXCAN working both with the state and with these community partners? And you are kind of the liaison between them? Or are you able -- do the state and these community partners ever work together?
Marlene Castillo [00:06:31] I guess you could say we are the liaison. Sorry.
Sophie Therber [00:06:37] That's okay.
Marlene Castillo [00:06:38] So yes and no, because they -- some of those community partners do have contact with the state people. But some of them don't, but they're able to connect with those individuals and ask the questions that they've wanted to ask through these meetings. We've actually had Secretary Cohen join one of our meetings, which is really nice, and we had lots of questions that day, which is expected, but it was it was nice that we were able to get Secretary Cohen to join our meeting and let us know what's going on and keeping us updated and letting us know how we can continue to combat COVID-19.
Marlene Castillo [00:07:22] That's really interesting. How did that day go for you? What did Secretary Cohen talk about?
Marlene Castillo [00:07:27] She talked about the update of COVID-19. At the moment, it's been a while now, so between all the meetings, I can't quite exactly remember everything that happened that day. But she was just giving us updates about COVID-19 and the tools that are available for us to use to combat the virus.
Marlene Castillo [00:07:50] I want to go back to something that you were saying a while ago about when you started, when you were in your internship and a big part of your job was distributing PPE and other supplies. Can you tell me more about that, that kind of direct involvement in distribution?
Marlene Castillo [00:08:04] So...like, my experience? Or why we did it? Or...
Sophie Therber [00:08:10] Both would be great.
Marlene Castillo [00:08:11] Okay, so my experience is really eye opening, how there wasn't really much help for the Latino community. Nobody was going out there to pass out information to them. Nobody was saying, "Hey, if you need anything, just contact us and we're here to help you." So it's really great to be a part of the AMEXCAN team. And to see that there is actually someone out there trying to help Latino community. Although we are the Association of Mexicans in North Carolina, we do help all the Latino community. We're not biased against any specific city or anything like that. We help all. So it's really nice to see that AMEXCAN was like that. And, like, when we would go out to these businesses, we were, I felt like we made a change passing out these resources and like facemasks, hand sanitizers, anything we had available. It was really nice to see the little community happy that we were out there helping them when nobody else was really helping them at the moment.
Sophie Therber [00:09:26] And what kind of businesses and places where you going to distribute the supplies?
Marlene Castillo [00:09:30] We would go to Hispanic stores like so like, Mexican stores, Hispanic stores, taco places, so the taquerias, we'd go to flea markets, flea markets, the one known in Smithfield, that one was a really big one, that we were able to pass out a lot of stuff. Just restaurants, like, just all the little small local -- not local, because we went across the state -- local business, Hispanic businesses in North Carolina. The small ones that aren't really...touched by the health departments or the government or anything like that.
Sophie Therber [00:10:20] That's really amazing that you and your coworkers were able to go where, like you said, the health departments and the government just are not going to these places. Can you tell me a little bit more about the response that you got from people when you were distributing these materials?
Marlene Castillo [00:10:33] They are very appreciative. They're really thankful that we were out there giving these resources and information out to them. They tell their friends and their family that we were doing these type of things because we, AMEXCAN became known for their resource fairs. Almas Unidas, so it started back in March, also 2020. AMEXCAN would, during my internship, actually, we'd do resource fairs at least two times a month, if not more. We'd go to different counties and distribute food, so we'd always have a good attendance for those. We became known for our resource fairs, honestly. So, that was really good for us, but really good for the community too, because then they were able to receive testing. We would be out there with food, we'd have the testing mobile unit there, but they weren't required to get testing. It was just there if they'd like it. And it was a resource that was available to them when it probably would...I mean, it would, but they would be hesitant to go to the health department rather than go get, you know, from this, like...we are their own people, I guess you could say. [We] have that trust, we were able to get that trust from the community and they would be able to, they would get tested and all that stuff. And now since we've switched over to the vaccines, we've been able to have vaccine providers come out to our resource fairs as well to get the Latino community vaccinated.
Marlene Castillo [00:12:20] And how do you decide where to hold these resource fairs, like what counties? How do you prioritize that?
Marlene Castillo [00:12:27] So it depends on the grant that we receive in the beginning, I didn't know because it was my internship, so I wasn't aware what counties we had to go to or anything like that. We would just be there to help. But now, as a part of the AMEXCAN team, it's, I've learned that it's a pile of the grant and which counties that we say we are going to go attend. And it's most, it's mostly the counties are in high rates of COVID-19. So we choose those so that we could go out there more and try and combat it. Out right now, we have the Healthier Together grant, where we're going out to four different regions in North Carolina and not just eastern, but across North Carolina to combat COVID-19 and provide the vaccine. But as AMEXCAN, we're providing resource fairs to entice the community to come out and for us to disseminate any concerns or anything like that that they might have.
Sophie Therber [00:13:36] And can you tell me more about how your role has changed? So, you began in spring 2020 and that was kind of a different stage of the pandemic because, as you were saying, there wasn't hardly any information or knowledge about what was happening. And then, in the midst of the pandemic, before the vaccines were available. And now, since vaccines are available, how has your job there evolved over time throughout the pandemic?
Marlene Castillo [00:14:01] It's evolved a lot. So they were so I started as an intern and then I moved on to -- I'm a community health...Actually, can I, I can actually look for my title, because it switched recently. I was the...I know I had to do with....okay, let's see. Well, it's not up here...So, I joined in November 2020.
Sophie Therber [00:14:49] Okay.
Marlene Castillo [00:14:50] Sorry. [laughs]
Sophie Therber [00:14:51] That's okay!
Marlene Castillo [00:14:53] I joined November 2020, managing the Task Force. I was the community. Community health -- no, the community outreach coordinator. That was my first title, and then from there I also launched the NC Farmworkers Resource Network in January of 2020, so that's another initiative that we have here at AMEXCAN. There's so many things because AMEXCAN has our mission and our goals are like cultural, educational, leadership, health and advocacy. So we have different programs always going on. So the NC Farmworkers Resource Network was one that was launched in January of 2020, coming from the Latino COVID-19 Task Force, so [...] we did that for a little bit, and then a couple of months ago we were able to get a grant for disaster relief, so I joined as the director of disaster relief, and we're hoping to relaunch the disaster relief program to help the Latino community in times of a disaster.
Sophie Therber [00:16:04] So was the disaster relief program something that started as a response to covid specifically, or has it been something that's been around because of the high rate of just extreme weather and other disasters that affect eastern North Carolina?
Marlene Castillo [00:16:18] A little bit of both, because AMEXCAN had also previously had a disaster relief program that just had to stop due to funding. But we got funding, a little bit of funding, so we're able to relaunch that program again. But it's also because of COVID-19 as well, and the rates.
Sophie Therber [00:16:38] And are any of -- so if it started a while ago, before COVID, are any of the, I guess, lessons learned or protocols from natural disasters relevant in addressing the pandemic, or is the pandemic just kind of a totally separate thing that has had different and new challenges for you?
Marlene Castillo [00:16:55] Could you repeat it, please? I'm sorry.
Sophie Therber [00:16:57] I'm sorry. Yeah, I was just wondering, like, are any lessons or protocol or other things, resources from when the disaster relief program before COVID, able to apply to the pandemic or has the pandemic just kind of, is such a new situation that it's not able to apply?
Marlene Castillo [00:17:16] Yes. So, I would say yes. So during cases of natural disaster, like the one I can think of specifically is Ocracoke, they got hit really hard with Hurricane Dorian and they, the Latino community in Ocracoke lost their jobs, lost their homes. They lost so much. And there was no resources, really, or there were resources, but they weren't, like, trusting, I guess you could say, maybe because of their immigration status, were not. I don't know personally, but I'm pretty sure that's what one of the cases was, immigration status, that they were concerned that if they went and received help from the state, that they'd get caught and be sent back home. So I know trust was one of the big things. Similar to COVID, trust is a big thing, like the Hispanic community is really cautious about anything that's given by the state just because they don't want to get caught and be sent back to where they were from. And because they have families here, they've established homes here, like, they've established everything here and they don't want to risk going back. So, I would say it's similar to COVID-19 with that, specifically Ocracoke, because AMEXCAN was able to provide financial help when it hit thanks to a grant. And they also were able to provide food and housing for them while their homes got repaired. So it's similar to COVID-19 just because during COVID, I also remember we were able to help financially to the Latino community with rental assistance or home bills like electricity or anything like that. So, yes, it's similar to...disaster work and COVID-19 are similar.
Sophie Therber [00:19:17] It seems like with your job and your positions there, you are simultaneously working with the state, with some government and other stakeholders that are kind of addressing this COVID and natural disasters from a more broad perspective, but then also with community members who, as you said, might have reasons to not necessarily trust the state or other government actors. Can you talk about how you are able to manage, kind of, both of those perspectives at the same time?
Marlene Castillo [00:19:46] Manage both perspectives in which way? I'm sorry.
Sophie Therber [00:19:49] That's okay. I guess just like working both with the state, or like these kind of upper level like government organizations, like with the Task Force especially, but then also when you're on the ground with community members who you said, for good reason, don't always trust the state or trust those government actors. How do you kind of balance working with both of those groups at once?
Marlene Castillo [00:20:11] I guess balance, because our main goal is just trying to help everyone. I see that the government and the state is trying to help the communities that aren't being targeted right now. And I see that the communities that we are targeting are open to us helping them. So, I guess, is that what you mean when...? Okay.
Sophie Therber [00:20:41] Yeah! Yeah, thank you. So, are there any other -- excuse me, sorry -- you were saying that some of the protocols that you have from disaster management have carried over into the COVID pandemic from just ways that you were doing things with resources for people from disasters now being used in the pandemic, and then, kind of on the other side, is there anything that you that you and your organization have started doing in the pandemic that you believe you'll keep doing in the future?
Marlene Castillo [00:21:10] Yes, definitely. We'll definitely continue to reach out to these local communities, restaurants, stores, barbershops, all of that we're going to continue to do, let them know of all the services we have provided. AMEXCAN actually has a "promotores" program. So, it's individuals who are, who want to promote all the resources that are in their, like...So, the promotores are each in different counties, and they are able to share the resources and all the events that we have coming up with their communities, that which helps AMEXCAN reach even more individuals. That's something that I think that is going to continue as well. Our resource fairs, I don't know at the moment. It's just, it just depends on funding and it takes a lot to do these resource fairs. The AMEXCAN team is really working hard to provide these services for the Latino community. We actually just recently had a resource fair last Friday in Wilson and it was pouring cats and dogs. But we were still out there; the rain did not stop us, the thunder did not stop us. Because we wanted to make sure that the individuals who signed up for these resource fairs receive the food that was provided by the food bank and the culturally appropriate food items that we were able to collect as well for them to get it. Thankfully, the vaccine provider was able to stay as well and we were able to vaccinate 15 individuals. So, that was really nice. And we had community health workers also who were, who stuck it out and stayed in the rain as well and shared these the resources that they had for that county. So, I'm thinking we might still continue to do these resource fairs. We just don't know. It just all depends on funding. But we will definitely be going out to businesses and passing out information. I know there is something in the Education Department I don't know a lot about, but they're hoping to launch that this upcoming month. So, AMEXCAN is launching an Education Alliance where they will be providing webinars, like events about how like high schoolers can apply for college because there's that, there's that barrier. There's nothing really out there for the Latino community who, like, the parents for them to know what's going on, how to help their kids go to college if they are documented. And that leaves a gap for the Latino community in the college setting to, you know, to go get an education and stuff like that. And we're also watching the health initiative. So we're also, we also have a North Carolina Latino Health Alliance that has already launched. And those weeks, those meetings are monthly, and we're hoping to just collaborate and continue to educate the Latino community about health education, because that's something we did notice during COVID-19 that many of the community, like Latino communities, didn't know or didn't have much knowledge of because they don't have the funds or they don't -- they're afraid to go into the health department and receive these services that are available to them. So AMEXCAN is honestly, [laughs] they're hitting everything that we can. We're also doing the farm workers, which will continue to stay as well, the NC Latino Farmworkers Resource Network. And that's where I host those meetings as well. It's every other Thursday at 11:00 a.m., where we have guest speakers, as well, speak about the farm workers, the ones who aren't spoken about. That's still something, even before the pandemic, no one really spoke about the farm workers and everything that they're going through and all the struggles that they have to face being farm workers coming from Mexico or different states, the H-2A workers and all that. So, we have guest speakers during our meeting to speak about the programs that are available for these farm workers or resources that are available or projects or data that's been found. And we're trying to find ways to combat anything that, like, for farm workers and help them with anything, any way we can. That's another thing. And the individuals who join those meetings are on the farm, like the agriculture side of agencies that are also trying to help the Latino farmworkers. That's...When I tell you AMEXCAN is doing a lot of things, they're doing a lot of things, [laughs] which is really great to be a part of. And it was really great to see, during my internship, all the hard work that goes into community-based organizations. There's a lot of work that is done in the background that most don't see when we have our events. It's a nice event, but all the hard work that had to go through organizing that event, inviting the community to come out, and for the community to actually come out, it's a lot of work. So I, I really look up to Juvencio and all the work he's done and how far he's gotten AMEXCAN to where it is now.
Sophie Therber [00:27:03] Wow, that's amazing. It sounds like AMEXCAN is taking on a lot of really important issues, kind of all at once, and that's really amazing that you are able to, I mean, do so many things. It sounds like your job has changed a lot from the Farmworkers Resource Network to the distributing PPE, and now with the task force and farm workers meetings. Can you tell me, what was it like to transition from an internship role with AMEXCAN to now the job that you have now since November?
Marlene Castillo [00:27:35] So thankfully, during my internship with AMEXCAN, they put me in my position, they didn't call me an intern. They called me by the position of, I was health coordinator, so I was already part of the team, honestly. That was really great. So, the transition wasn't as difficult as I thought it would be because I was already, like, they already taught me everything I needed to know or needed to do just because I was already doing that during my internship, which is really nice, and it was also really nice that we were able to -- a couple of us, actually, from that specific internship were able to join the team. That was really nice because, I mean, it was during COVID times, so we were all worried after graduating if we were going to get a job anywhere. So it was really good that we were able to join with AMEXCAN. I guess it's because of all the hard work we all did. And they saw that we were passionate about helping the Latino community. So the transition wasn't as difficult as I thought it would be. It was pretty smooth, just because everything I was doing during my internship was the same stuff I did when I started joining the team, when I joined the team. So that was really nice. Not too much stress. [laughs]
Sophie Therber [00:28:54] Well, that's good, that's really good that it was a smooth transition. I want to go back to what you were saying about connecting with the small businesses and other local stores and things like that to be distributing information and materials. So like you said, these are places that are often kind of left behind by state or other government responses. So how do you build and form relationships with these really small places and how do you maintain a close relationship with them?
Marlene Castillo [00:29:26] We keep in contact with them. That's definitely one of the big things. We continue to go back, or we check up, check up on them and see if they have any needs or anything that's going on in their communities that they need help with. And if they do, we go back out there and provide those resources. In Tarboro, currently it's red; COVID cases are high in that county, so one of our previous AMEXCAN promotoras mentioned that on Fridays, lots of the farm workers come out there, and she's noticed that most of them aren't vaccinated, but some are. Some are vaccinated. The state has done a good job at vaccinating the farmworkers when they come in, but some of them aren't vaccinated. So, she let us know that it would be a great opportunity for us to have an event there. So we'll be going out there this August 27th to provide the vaccine. We're going to do, like, a little health fair and also provide additional services. We're hoping to get dental services or dental screening because it's something that the Latino community needs, something that they don't receive. So we're hoping to get that. We have a blood pressure check, blood sugar check, like just the basics. So if someone is...like, something's not okay, we're able to refer them to the health department, and they can get the services, or a community health center to get the services that they need. So that's really nice. So just building the trust and doing things like that, going back out there to the communities that are, that we visited and are in need of something, just going back and keeping that connection with them has definitely helped.
Sophie Therber [00:31:16] So when you're keeping in touch with the small businesses, are you doing so that you can, so you can get of a read on how the communities where they are doing, or are you also keeping in touch? Because I'm sure that a lot of those small businesses have been hit pretty heavily by I mean, just less people coming because of the pandemic. Are you keeping in touch with just the clients of the businesses or the businesses themselves?
Marlene Castillo [00:31:42] I guess, the clients -- Both, actually, both. Because if there is any, we haven't really had a call where a local business has had to shut down because of financial, just because the Latino community, they continue to work. They worked throughout the whole pandemic. They really didn't stop. [...] I guess I could say it was like down a little bit, but it wasn't enough to hit them and have them go and shut their stores down just because the Latino community still had to work and still had to go to these stores to get food, like the centros and stuff like that. But if AMEXCAN finds grants are available for these small businesses, we're sure to share that with the people who, or businesses that reach out and let us know that they're struggling. So we try to help them in any way we can.
Sophie Therber [00:32:46] And you mentioned that you have a health fair coming up, can you tell me more about what goes into the planning and conducting the health fairs? What do you have to do for that?
Marlene Castillo [00:32:56] We have to find a location that's big enough for us to have the vaccine provider, any other community partner who would like to join, we like to invite everyone they want to, if they're from the county to share any resources that they have. So, we have to make sure the location's okay. We have to contact the store or the business or church or school, whatever location we take, we have to contact them and ask them if we could use their location, their premises to provide a vaccine event. We have to contact the food bank because we receive food for the the resource fairs. This time we won't have food, but usually we always have food. We want to keep this one more health-related. So, we're going to be contacting Edgecombe County Health Department or community health centers that provide services like the dental screenings and stuff like that. So we have to contact them, schedule with all the community partners to make sure the date's okay with everyone, they're not booked because everyone's booked at the moment because of the vaccine's going -- I mean, the COVID-19 rates going up. So to make sure everyone's booked and free on the same date, same time. That's another thing. We usually have to schedule these later in the day just because the Latino community is working, and they don't get off til 5:00 or later, so we have these events more towards the evening, so we have to stay after hours. So from like 4:00 to 7:00, and stuff like that, or 3:00 to 7:00, just to make sure that they are able to go get those resources. We have to contact the vaccine provider and make sure that they're available and they can come out and provide the vaccines. We have to make sure that the vaccines that the community wants are provided that day. So we ask the person who -- like the business who, like the promotora we reached out to, we asked her which vaccine or what would they like for them to come out to that event? So we have to ask. They asked the community which vaccine they'd prefer. So we hear back from them. Then we tell the vaccine provider, "Hey, they'd like this. Can you provide this to state?" And then they bring it, and they say "yes" or "no." And then we usually sign people up just so we can get -- we don't collect any information that would be, you know, risky for them. Just their name, where they're from, what origin of Mexico or origin, which country they're from, just to keep a record for ourselves. So in case of anything, we can call them back and let them know that we have another resource fair or something like that or other events. So, we usually do that. Then, we organize everything like the fliers. We have fliers we have to create that we share with these our networks. AMEXCAN is known for sharing on WhatsApp groups. We call them redes. The redes are on WhatsApp, which is where they have different WhatsApp groups, and they add individuals from that county. They share it with them or different projects that Mexico has done, and they're local, share the flier with them, let them know we're coming. If they need anything, we'll be out there. We also post on our Facebook and our Instagram, our Twitter, our LinkedIn. We share everywhere. And then we share it with our Task Force members as well, in case they want to share with their communities or their networks as well for them to invite everyone to come out that day and take advantage of the of we have planned. That's a little bit about it, but, yes, that's what we're doing for the health fair. So we're, right now, communicating with the Carolina Family Health Center to see if they have a mobile unit that can provide dental screening for that day, that date. And then we have Old North State Medical Society coming from Greensboro to provide the vaccine and the blood pressure check, blood sugar, and not the basics.
Sophie Therber [00:37:34] Wow, I'm amazed by just how many moving parts there are and figuring out this event and just the attention to detail, and one thing that hadn't really occurred to me is just the timing of it. So making sure that not only the providers and the health clinic people are available at the same time, but that that time is actually even convenient for the populations that you're serving. So that's really interesting.
Marlene Castillo [00:37:57] [laughs] That's something that we were able to tell the state. Like, it's great that they were having these testing events and vaccine events and all these things during the day. But if they're trying to hit the Latino population, they're working. So they're not going to be available to go get tested or go get the vaccine during the day because they don't have a break and their only time available is after work. So, that was really nice that they were able to realize that the Latino community isn't available during the day. And they were also, everyone was able to switch their times and do events in the evening or provide, like, the health departments were able to provide vaccines and testing on the weekend so that these populations were able to receive it.
Sophie Therber [00:38:49] Do you feel that the state has been receptive to your feedback such as that about the timing or about other things in general?
Marlene Castillo [00:38:59] What do you mean by receptive? Sorry.
Sophie Therber [00:39:00] Sorry, it's okay. I'm just wondering, like when you have recommendations for the state about how to better reach Latino populations in North Carolina., do you feel that they are listening to you and taking account about what you and other members of your organization are recommending to them?
Marlene Castillo [00:39:16] Definitely, yes. I feel like we have been able to let them know how the Latino population feels and what accommodations they need to feel safe and trusting of them. Yes.
Sophie Therber [00:39:38] That's really good to hear. If you, so, if you and the rest of your organization, in an ideal world, if you had more supports, not necessarily just from the state, but just kind of in general, what kind of supports would you want to have to be able to address the issues that you faced throughout the pandemic?
Marlene Castillo [00:39:59] Support we'd like to have...Obviously, financially, [laughs] just to be able to compensate everyone for all the work that they have to go through and organize and stuff like that. More volunteers, we have a volunteer list of about 50, but the more the better. Just because the Latino community isn't small, we make up a big portion of North Carolina, especially in the agriculture industry. So volunteers, probably, to provide to be out there with us for the events we have so it's not just staff going out to these events because we also have other things we have to organize and plan for other events. But I think that would be a just because the state's been good with us as well, to help us help the Latino community, yeah.
Sophie Therber [00:41:08] Great, well, is there anything else that you would like to add before I stop recording?
Marlene Castillo [00:41:13] Thank you for having me. These questions...
Sophie Therber [00:41:15] Of course, yeah. Thank you so much. Awesome. Well, thank you again. I'm going to go ahead and stop the recording really quickly.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Empleados de organizaciones sin fines de lucro
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Esta entrevista de historia oral fue realizada por Sophie Therber con la entrevistada Marlene Castillo vía Zoom el 2 de agosto de 2021. El tema central es la participación de Marlene en la Asociación de Mexicanos en Carolina del Norte (AMEXCAN) y su experiencia ayudando a inmigrantes latinos a mitigar la pandemia de COVID y los huracanes. Marlene describe su experiencia manejando el Equipo de Trabajo NC Latino de AMEXCAN sobre el COVID-19 conectando una variedad de actores tales como departamentos de salud, organizaciones comunitarias, socios comunitarios y líderes estatales. Un punto clave de la labor de Marlene al atender la pandemia del COVID es ir a los pequeños negocios tales como restaurantes, mercados callejeros y tiendas para distribuir suministros esenciales y recursos, así como crear eventos para reunir diferentes proveedores y distribuir recursos tales como vacunas y exámenes dentales. Ella habla sobre las numerosas estrategias que ella y AMEXCAN han adoptado con el fin de proporcionar la mayor ayuda posible a las comunidades inmigrantes. Marlene enfatiza en la necesidad de la colaboración ante la adversidad y la importancia de las redes comunitarias. La entrevistadora Sophie Therber es una estudiante de último año de la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill (UNC) llevando a cabo investigaciones para su tesis del programa de honor en el departamento de Desarrollo Humano y Estudios de la Familia.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Marlene Castillo por Sophie Therber, 03 August 2021, R-1002, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Cuidado de la salud; Salud; cambio climático; Programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios; COVID-19
Es: Transcripción
Sophie Therber [00:00:02] My name is Sophie Therber, I'm interviewing Marlene Castillo, and today is August 2nd, 2021. The time is 6:03 PM. Marlene, thank you so much for allowing me to interview you for this project.
Marlene Castillo [00:00:13] Thank you so much for having me.
Sophie Therber [00:00:15] So just to start, where are you from and where did you grow up?
Marlene Castillo [00:00:19] So I'm from Nash County, so right down from Pitt County. I'm from Rocky Mount, North Carolina. I've been here my whole life. I was born and raised here in Nashville -- Nashville, North Carolina. People get confused with Nashville, Tennessee, but Nashville, North Carolina and Rocky Mount, North Carolina. And I've been here for 23 years. So, I've been here my whole life. I've went pre-K to high school, and then once I graduated from high school, I went to Greenville to East Carolina University, where I've been the past five years. I've been living in Pitt County for the, since up until last week, actually. I moved back to my hometown this past week. So I'm back in Rocky Mount.
Sophie Therber [00:01:13] Does your family still live in Rocky Mount?
Marlene Castillo [00:01:15] Yes.
Sophie Therber [00:01:17] Awesome, and what made you decide to go to -- what did you study when you were in college? Excuse me.
Marlene Castillo [00:01:22] I did university studies. So it's a combination. When I first came to Greenville, I wanted to be a nurse [laughs] like everyone else, but it's so competitive. So, I had to switch to public health. And then from public health, there [were] a little bit of complications just because of my mom's health and all that. So I wasn't able to complete the requirements and I didn't want to extend my time at school for another year. So I switched to university studies, which is a combination of all the classes I've taken throughout the years.
Sophie Therber [00:02:01] And you said that you started with an AMEXCAN in March of 2020. Can you just tell me a little bit about what that was like to be -- or, excuse me, I believe you said spring 2020. Can you tell me what that was like to be starting there kind of in the midst of everything changing with the pandemic?
Marlene Castillo [00:02:16] So, we were, I was interning with AMEXCAN first for my internship with school. And then, starting -- we were actually offered, near the end of my internship, we were offered a job to work as community health workers. So, we were out going out to the communities, going out to local businesses like stores, like shops and stuff like that, passing out PPE and information about COVID just because there wasn't really much aid for the Latino community. So, we were able to do that during my internship near the end, which was really amazing to experience that and get paid as well. [laughs] So, it was really nice experience. And then we, the internship ended and we had our, like, our break and they called me, and they were like, "Hey, would you like to come on board for the team?" Because I was also managing the NC Latino COVID-19 Task Force during my internship. I was helping the person in charge of the task force organize that and help her with the minutes and all the information that was shared. So, Juvencio, our executive director, asked if I wanted to stay on board and continue to work with the NC Latino COVID-19 Task Force in January. So I was able to join the AMEXCAN team in January of 2020. Nope -- 2021. I'm getting the dates confused because it's just been all a blur. [laughs]
Sophie Therber [00:03:56] That's okay. That totally makes sense. It's been a really long time that we've been in the pandemic and everything, so that definitely makes sense. Can you tell me a little bit more about what the task force does and what your role is with them?
Marlene Castillo [00:04:09] So the task force is a meeting is hosted every Monday morning at 11:00 a.m., and we have different stakeholders join our meetings from health departments, community-based organizations, community partners and state leaders. They join, they give updates about what's going on in each person's county, and they give us updates about how COVID's going in their county, any events they have planned. And just, we think, like, collaboration, ideas about events on how to combat COVID-19. In the beginning, it was more towards people getting tested because there was hesitancy of testing for the Latino community. But as time went on, the vaccine was available. It was about strategies on how to get the Latino community vaccinated. And that's what we're currently on right now, trying to get the community vaccinated, especially with the Delta variant that's going on right now. And we also have guest speakers join the first 30 minutes to speak a little bit about COVID-19 and ways to combat it or programs that are available thanks to COVID-19 that could help the Latino community and the marginalized populations.
Sophie Therber [00:05:36] And what is the process of reaching out to these guest speakers and stakeholders, what do you have to do to get other people involved in these meetings?
Marlene Castillo [00:05:44] So, I have to have to send them emails. [laughs] So that's what I'm working, I'm in charge of. I have to reach out to these, like, important people, honestly, from the federal to the state level to even community partners. I have to send them and email and ask them that we would like to have them join our Task Force meeting and share a little bit about COVID-19, like what's going on and to keep us informed and keep our community partners informed of everything that's happening.
Sophie Therber [00:06:17] So are the state and community partners are they -- is AMEXCAN working both with the state and with these community partners? And you are kind of the liaison between them? Or are you able -- do the state and these community partners ever work together?
Marlene Castillo [00:06:31] I guess you could say we are the liaison. Sorry.
Sophie Therber [00:06:37] That's okay.
Marlene Castillo [00:06:38] So yes and no, because they -- some of those community partners do have contact with the state people. But some of them don't, but they're able to connect with those individuals and ask the questions that they've wanted to ask through these meetings. We've actually had Secretary Cohen join one of our meetings, which is really nice, and we had lots of questions that day, which is expected, but it was it was nice that we were able to get Secretary Cohen to join our meeting and let us know what's going on and keeping us updated and letting us know how we can continue to combat COVID-19.
Marlene Castillo [00:07:22] That's really interesting. How did that day go for you? What did Secretary Cohen talk about?
Marlene Castillo [00:07:27] She talked about the update of COVID-19. At the moment, it's been a while now, so between all the meetings, I can't quite exactly remember everything that happened that day. But she was just giving us updates about COVID-19 and the tools that are available for us to use to combat the virus.
Marlene Castillo [00:07:50] I want to go back to something that you were saying a while ago about when you started, when you were in your internship and a big part of your job was distributing PPE and other supplies. Can you tell me more about that, that kind of direct involvement in distribution?
Marlene Castillo [00:08:04] So...like, my experience? Or why we did it? Or...
Sophie Therber [00:08:10] Both would be great.
Marlene Castillo [00:08:11] Okay, so my experience is really eye opening, how there wasn't really much help for the Latino community. Nobody was going out there to pass out information to them. Nobody was saying, "Hey, if you need anything, just contact us and we're here to help you." So it's really great to be a part of the AMEXCAN team. And to see that there is actually someone out there trying to help Latino community. Although we are the Association of Mexicans in North Carolina, we do help all the Latino community. We're not biased against any specific city or anything like that. We help all. So it's really nice to see that AMEXCAN was like that. And, like, when we would go out to these businesses, we were, I felt like we made a change passing out these resources and like facemasks, hand sanitizers, anything we had available. It was really nice to see the little community happy that we were out there helping them when nobody else was really helping them at the moment.
Sophie Therber [00:09:26] And what kind of businesses and places where you going to distribute the supplies?
Marlene Castillo [00:09:30] We would go to Hispanic stores like so like, Mexican stores, Hispanic stores, taco places, so the taquerias, we'd go to flea markets, flea markets, the one known in Smithfield, that one was a really big one, that we were able to pass out a lot of stuff. Just restaurants, like, just all the little small local -- not local, because we went across the state -- local business, Hispanic businesses in North Carolina. The small ones that aren't really...touched by the health departments or the government or anything like that.
Sophie Therber [00:10:20] That's really amazing that you and your coworkers were able to go where, like you said, the health departments and the government just are not going to these places. Can you tell me a little bit more about the response that you got from people when you were distributing these materials?
Marlene Castillo [00:10:33] They are very appreciative. They're really thankful that we were out there giving these resources and information out to them. They tell their friends and their family that we were doing these type of things because we, AMEXCAN became known for their resource fairs. Almas Unidas, so it started back in March, also 2020. AMEXCAN would, during my internship, actually, we'd do resource fairs at least two times a month, if not more. We'd go to different counties and distribute food, so we'd always have a good attendance for those. We became known for our resource fairs, honestly. So, that was really good for us, but really good for the community too, because then they were able to receive testing. We would be out there with food, we'd have the testing mobile unit there, but they weren't required to get testing. It was just there if they'd like it. And it was a resource that was available to them when it probably would...I mean, it would, but they would be hesitant to go to the health department rather than go get, you know, from this, like...we are their own people, I guess you could say. [We] have that trust, we were able to get that trust from the community and they would be able to, they would get tested and all that stuff. And now since we've switched over to the vaccines, we've been able to have vaccine providers come out to our resource fairs as well to get the Latino community vaccinated.
Marlene Castillo [00:12:20] And how do you decide where to hold these resource fairs, like what counties? How do you prioritize that?
Marlene Castillo [00:12:27] So it depends on the grant that we receive in the beginning, I didn't know because it was my internship, so I wasn't aware what counties we had to go to or anything like that. We would just be there to help. But now, as a part of the AMEXCAN team, it's, I've learned that it's a pile of the grant and which counties that we say we are going to go attend. And it's most, it's mostly the counties are in high rates of COVID-19. So we choose those so that we could go out there more and try and combat it. Out right now, we have the Healthier Together grant, where we're going out to four different regions in North Carolina and not just eastern, but across North Carolina to combat COVID-19 and provide the vaccine. But as AMEXCAN, we're providing resource fairs to entice the community to come out and for us to disseminate any concerns or anything like that that they might have.
Sophie Therber [00:13:36] And can you tell me more about how your role has changed? So, you began in spring 2020 and that was kind of a different stage of the pandemic because, as you were saying, there wasn't hardly any information or knowledge about what was happening. And then, in the midst of the pandemic, before the vaccines were available. And now, since vaccines are available, how has your job there evolved over time throughout the pandemic?
Marlene Castillo [00:14:01] It's evolved a lot. So they were so I started as an intern and then I moved on to -- I'm a community health...Actually, can I, I can actually look for my title, because it switched recently. I was the...I know I had to do with....okay, let's see. Well, it's not up here...So, I joined in November 2020.
Sophie Therber [00:14:49] Okay.
Marlene Castillo [00:14:50] Sorry. [laughs]
Sophie Therber [00:14:51] That's okay!
Marlene Castillo [00:14:53] I joined November 2020, managing the Task Force. I was the community. Community health -- no, the community outreach coordinator. That was my first title, and then from there I also launched the NC Farmworkers Resource Network in January of 2020, so that's another initiative that we have here at AMEXCAN. There's so many things because AMEXCAN has our mission and our goals are like cultural, educational, leadership, health and advocacy. So we have different programs always going on. So the NC Farmworkers Resource Network was one that was launched in January of 2020, coming from the Latino COVID-19 Task Force, so [...] we did that for a little bit, and then a couple of months ago we were able to get a grant for disaster relief, so I joined as the director of disaster relief, and we're hoping to relaunch the disaster relief program to help the Latino community in times of a disaster.
Sophie Therber [00:16:04] So was the disaster relief program something that started as a response to covid specifically, or has it been something that's been around because of the high rate of just extreme weather and other disasters that affect eastern North Carolina?
Marlene Castillo [00:16:18] A little bit of both, because AMEXCAN had also previously had a disaster relief program that just had to stop due to funding. But we got funding, a little bit of funding, so we're able to relaunch that program again. But it's also because of COVID-19 as well, and the rates.
Sophie Therber [00:16:38] And are any of -- so if it started a while ago, before COVID, are any of the, I guess, lessons learned or protocols from natural disasters relevant in addressing the pandemic, or is the pandemic just kind of a totally separate thing that has had different and new challenges for you?
Marlene Castillo [00:16:55] Could you repeat it, please? I'm sorry.
Sophie Therber [00:16:57] I'm sorry. Yeah, I was just wondering, like, are any lessons or protocol or other things, resources from when the disaster relief program before COVID, able to apply to the pandemic or has the pandemic just kind of, is such a new situation that it's not able to apply?
Marlene Castillo [00:17:16] Yes. So, I would say yes. So during cases of natural disaster, like the one I can think of specifically is Ocracoke, they got hit really hard with Hurricane Dorian and they, the Latino community in Ocracoke lost their jobs, lost their homes. They lost so much. And there was no resources, really, or there were resources, but they weren't, like, trusting, I guess you could say, maybe because of their immigration status, were not. I don't know personally, but I'm pretty sure that's what one of the cases was, immigration status, that they were concerned that if they went and received help from the state, that they'd get caught and be sent back home. So I know trust was one of the big things. Similar to COVID, trust is a big thing, like the Hispanic community is really cautious about anything that's given by the state just because they don't want to get caught and be sent back to where they were from. And because they have families here, they've established homes here, like, they've established everything here and they don't want to risk going back. So, I would say it's similar to COVID-19 with that, specifically Ocracoke, because AMEXCAN was able to provide financial help when it hit thanks to a grant. And they also were able to provide food and housing for them while their homes got repaired. So it's similar to COVID-19 just because during COVID, I also remember we were able to help financially to the Latino community with rental assistance or home bills like electricity or anything like that. So, yes, it's similar to...disaster work and COVID-19 are similar.
Sophie Therber [00:19:17] It seems like with your job and your positions there, you are simultaneously working with the state, with some government and other stakeholders that are kind of addressing this COVID and natural disasters from a more broad perspective, but then also with community members who, as you said, might have reasons to not necessarily trust the state or other government actors. Can you talk about how you are able to manage, kind of, both of those perspectives at the same time?
Marlene Castillo [00:19:46] Manage both perspectives in which way? I'm sorry.
Sophie Therber [00:19:49] That's okay. I guess just like working both with the state, or like these kind of upper level like government organizations, like with the Task Force especially, but then also when you're on the ground with community members who you said, for good reason, don't always trust the state or trust those government actors. How do you kind of balance working with both of those groups at once?
Marlene Castillo [00:20:11] I guess balance, because our main goal is just trying to help everyone. I see that the government and the state is trying to help the communities that aren't being targeted right now. And I see that the communities that we are targeting are open to us helping them. So, I guess, is that what you mean when...? Okay.
Sophie Therber [00:20:41] Yeah! Yeah, thank you. So, are there any other -- excuse me, sorry -- you were saying that some of the protocols that you have from disaster management have carried over into the COVID pandemic from just ways that you were doing things with resources for people from disasters now being used in the pandemic, and then, kind of on the other side, is there anything that you that you and your organization have started doing in the pandemic that you believe you'll keep doing in the future?
Marlene Castillo [00:21:10] Yes, definitely. We'll definitely continue to reach out to these local communities, restaurants, stores, barbershops, all of that we're going to continue to do, let them know of all the services we have provided. AMEXCAN actually has a "promotores" program. So, it's individuals who are, who want to promote all the resources that are in their, like...So, the promotores are each in different counties, and they are able to share the resources and all the events that we have coming up with their communities, that which helps AMEXCAN reach even more individuals. That's something that I think that is going to continue as well. Our resource fairs, I don't know at the moment. It's just, it just depends on funding and it takes a lot to do these resource fairs. The AMEXCAN team is really working hard to provide these services for the Latino community. We actually just recently had a resource fair last Friday in Wilson and it was pouring cats and dogs. But we were still out there; the rain did not stop us, the thunder did not stop us. Because we wanted to make sure that the individuals who signed up for these resource fairs receive the food that was provided by the food bank and the culturally appropriate food items that we were able to collect as well for them to get it. Thankfully, the vaccine provider was able to stay as well and we were able to vaccinate 15 individuals. So, that was really nice. And we had community health workers also who were, who stuck it out and stayed in the rain as well and shared these the resources that they had for that county. So, I'm thinking we might still continue to do these resource fairs. We just don't know. It just all depends on funding. But we will definitely be going out to businesses and passing out information. I know there is something in the Education Department I don't know a lot about, but they're hoping to launch that this upcoming month. So, AMEXCAN is launching an Education Alliance where they will be providing webinars, like events about how like high schoolers can apply for college because there's that, there's that barrier. There's nothing really out there for the Latino community who, like, the parents for them to know what's going on, how to help their kids go to college if they are documented. And that leaves a gap for the Latino community in the college setting to, you know, to go get an education and stuff like that. And we're also watching the health initiative. So we're also, we also have a North Carolina Latino Health Alliance that has already launched. And those weeks, those meetings are monthly, and we're hoping to just collaborate and continue to educate the Latino community about health education, because that's something we did notice during COVID-19 that many of the community, like Latino communities, didn't know or didn't have much knowledge of because they don't have the funds or they don't -- they're afraid to go into the health department and receive these services that are available to them. So AMEXCAN is honestly, [laughs] they're hitting everything that we can. We're also doing the farm workers, which will continue to stay as well, the NC Latino Farmworkers Resource Network. And that's where I host those meetings as well. It's every other Thursday at 11:00 a.m., where we have guest speakers, as well, speak about the farm workers, the ones who aren't spoken about. That's still something, even before the pandemic, no one really spoke about the farm workers and everything that they're going through and all the struggles that they have to face being farm workers coming from Mexico or different states, the H-2A workers and all that. So, we have guest speakers during our meeting to speak about the programs that are available for these farm workers or resources that are available or projects or data that's been found. And we're trying to find ways to combat anything that, like, for farm workers and help them with anything, any way we can. That's another thing. And the individuals who join those meetings are on the farm, like the agriculture side of agencies that are also trying to help the Latino farmworkers. That's...When I tell you AMEXCAN is doing a lot of things, they're doing a lot of things, [laughs] which is really great to be a part of. And it was really great to see, during my internship, all the hard work that goes into community-based organizations. There's a lot of work that is done in the background that most don't see when we have our events. It's a nice event, but all the hard work that had to go through organizing that event, inviting the community to come out, and for the community to actually come out, it's a lot of work. So I, I really look up to Juvencio and all the work he's done and how far he's gotten AMEXCAN to where it is now.
Sophie Therber [00:27:03] Wow, that's amazing. It sounds like AMEXCAN is taking on a lot of really important issues, kind of all at once, and that's really amazing that you are able to, I mean, do so many things. It sounds like your job has changed a lot from the Farmworkers Resource Network to the distributing PPE, and now with the task force and farm workers meetings. Can you tell me, what was it like to transition from an internship role with AMEXCAN to now the job that you have now since November?
Marlene Castillo [00:27:35] So thankfully, during my internship with AMEXCAN, they put me in my position, they didn't call me an intern. They called me by the position of, I was health coordinator, so I was already part of the team, honestly. That was really great. So, the transition wasn't as difficult as I thought it would be because I was already, like, they already taught me everything I needed to know or needed to do just because I was already doing that during my internship, which is really nice, and it was also really nice that we were able to -- a couple of us, actually, from that specific internship were able to join the team. That was really nice because, I mean, it was during COVID times, so we were all worried after graduating if we were going to get a job anywhere. So it was really good that we were able to join with AMEXCAN. I guess it's because of all the hard work we all did. And they saw that we were passionate about helping the Latino community. So the transition wasn't as difficult as I thought it would be. It was pretty smooth, just because everything I was doing during my internship was the same stuff I did when I started joining the team, when I joined the team. So that was really nice. Not too much stress. [laughs]
Sophie Therber [00:28:54] Well, that's good, that's really good that it was a smooth transition. I want to go back to what you were saying about connecting with the small businesses and other local stores and things like that to be distributing information and materials. So like you said, these are places that are often kind of left behind by state or other government responses. So how do you build and form relationships with these really small places and how do you maintain a close relationship with them?
Marlene Castillo [00:29:26] We keep in contact with them. That's definitely one of the big things. We continue to go back, or we check up, check up on them and see if they have any needs or anything that's going on in their communities that they need help with. And if they do, we go back out there and provide those resources. In Tarboro, currently it's red; COVID cases are high in that county, so one of our previous AMEXCAN promotoras mentioned that on Fridays, lots of the farm workers come out there, and she's noticed that most of them aren't vaccinated, but some are. Some are vaccinated. The state has done a good job at vaccinating the farmworkers when they come in, but some of them aren't vaccinated. So, she let us know that it would be a great opportunity for us to have an event there. So we'll be going out there this August 27th to provide the vaccine. We're going to do, like, a little health fair and also provide additional services. We're hoping to get dental services or dental screening because it's something that the Latino community needs, something that they don't receive. So we're hoping to get that. We have a blood pressure check, blood sugar check, like just the basics. So if someone is...like, something's not okay, we're able to refer them to the health department, and they can get the services, or a community health center to get the services that they need. So that's really nice. So just building the trust and doing things like that, going back out there to the communities that are, that we visited and are in need of something, just going back and keeping that connection with them has definitely helped.
Sophie Therber [00:31:16] So when you're keeping in touch with the small businesses, are you doing so that you can, so you can get of a read on how the communities where they are doing, or are you also keeping in touch? Because I'm sure that a lot of those small businesses have been hit pretty heavily by I mean, just less people coming because of the pandemic. Are you keeping in touch with just the clients of the businesses or the businesses themselves?
Marlene Castillo [00:31:42] I guess, the clients -- Both, actually, both. Because if there is any, we haven't really had a call where a local business has had to shut down because of financial, just because the Latino community, they continue to work. They worked throughout the whole pandemic. They really didn't stop. [...] I guess I could say it was like down a little bit, but it wasn't enough to hit them and have them go and shut their stores down just because the Latino community still had to work and still had to go to these stores to get food, like the centros and stuff like that. But if AMEXCAN finds grants are available for these small businesses, we're sure to share that with the people who, or businesses that reach out and let us know that they're struggling. So we try to help them in any way we can.
Sophie Therber [00:32:46] And you mentioned that you have a health fair coming up, can you tell me more about what goes into the planning and conducting the health fairs? What do you have to do for that?
Marlene Castillo [00:32:56] We have to find a location that's big enough for us to have the vaccine provider, any other community partner who would like to join, we like to invite everyone they want to, if they're from the county to share any resources that they have. So, we have to make sure the location's okay. We have to contact the store or the business or church or school, whatever location we take, we have to contact them and ask them if we could use their location, their premises to provide a vaccine event. We have to contact the food bank because we receive food for the the resource fairs. This time we won't have food, but usually we always have food. We want to keep this one more health-related. So, we're going to be contacting Edgecombe County Health Department or community health centers that provide services like the dental screenings and stuff like that. So we have to contact them, schedule with all the community partners to make sure the date's okay with everyone, they're not booked because everyone's booked at the moment because of the vaccine's going -- I mean, the COVID-19 rates going up. So to make sure everyone's booked and free on the same date, same time. That's another thing. We usually have to schedule these later in the day just because the Latino community is working, and they don't get off til 5:00 or later, so we have these events more towards the evening, so we have to stay after hours. So from like 4:00 to 7:00, and stuff like that, or 3:00 to 7:00, just to make sure that they are able to go get those resources. We have to contact the vaccine provider and make sure that they're available and they can come out and provide the vaccines. We have to make sure that the vaccines that the community wants are provided that day. So we ask the person who -- like the business who, like the promotora we reached out to, we asked her which vaccine or what would they like for them to come out to that event? So we have to ask. They asked the community which vaccine they'd prefer. So we hear back from them. Then we tell the vaccine provider, "Hey, they'd like this. Can you provide this to state?" And then they bring it, and they say "yes" or "no." And then we usually sign people up just so we can get -- we don't collect any information that would be, you know, risky for them. Just their name, where they're from, what origin of Mexico or origin, which country they're from, just to keep a record for ourselves. So in case of anything, we can call them back and let them know that we have another resource fair or something like that or other events. So, we usually do that. Then, we organize everything like the fliers. We have fliers we have to create that we share with these our networks. AMEXCAN is known for sharing on WhatsApp groups. We call them redes. The redes are on WhatsApp, which is where they have different WhatsApp groups, and they add individuals from that county. They share it with them or different projects that Mexico has done, and they're local, share the flier with them, let them know we're coming. If they need anything, we'll be out there. We also post on our Facebook and our Instagram, our Twitter, our LinkedIn. We share everywhere. And then we share it with our Task Force members as well, in case they want to share with their communities or their networks as well for them to invite everyone to come out that day and take advantage of the of we have planned. That's a little bit about it, but, yes, that's what we're doing for the health fair. So we're, right now, communicating with the Carolina Family Health Center to see if they have a mobile unit that can provide dental screening for that day, that date. And then we have Old North State Medical Society coming from Greensboro to provide the vaccine and the blood pressure check, blood sugar, and not the basics.
Sophie Therber [00:37:34] Wow, I'm amazed by just how many moving parts there are and figuring out this event and just the attention to detail, and one thing that hadn't really occurred to me is just the timing of it. So making sure that not only the providers and the health clinic people are available at the same time, but that that time is actually even convenient for the populations that you're serving. So that's really interesting.
Marlene Castillo [00:37:57] [laughs] That's something that we were able to tell the state. Like, it's great that they were having these testing events and vaccine events and all these things during the day. But if they're trying to hit the Latino population, they're working. So they're not going to be available to go get tested or go get the vaccine during the day because they don't have a break and their only time available is after work. So, that was really nice that they were able to realize that the Latino community isn't available during the day. And they were also, everyone was able to switch their times and do events in the evening or provide, like, the health departments were able to provide vaccines and testing on the weekend so that these populations were able to receive it.
Sophie Therber [00:38:49] Do you feel that the state has been receptive to your feedback such as that about the timing or about other things in general?
Marlene Castillo [00:38:59] What do you mean by receptive? Sorry.
Sophie Therber [00:39:00] Sorry, it's okay. I'm just wondering, like when you have recommendations for the state about how to better reach Latino populations in North Carolina., do you feel that they are listening to you and taking account about what you and other members of your organization are recommending to them?
Marlene Castillo [00:39:16] Definitely, yes. I feel like we have been able to let them know how the Latino population feels and what accommodations they need to feel safe and trusting of them. Yes.
Sophie Therber [00:39:38] That's really good to hear. If you, so, if you and the rest of your organization, in an ideal world, if you had more supports, not necessarily just from the state, but just kind of in general, what kind of supports would you want to have to be able to address the issues that you faced throughout the pandemic?
Marlene Castillo [00:39:59] Support we'd like to have...Obviously, financially, [laughs] just to be able to compensate everyone for all the work that they have to go through and organize and stuff like that. More volunteers, we have a volunteer list of about 50, but the more the better. Just because the Latino community isn't small, we make up a big portion of North Carolina, especially in the agriculture industry. So volunteers, probably, to provide to be out there with us for the events we have so it's not just staff going out to these events because we also have other things we have to organize and plan for other events. But I think that would be a just because the state's been good with us as well, to help us help the Latino community, yeah.
Sophie Therber [00:41:08] Great, well, is there anything else that you would like to add before I stop recording?
Marlene Castillo [00:41:13] Thank you for having me. These questions...
Sophie Therber [00:41:15] Of course, yeah. Thank you so much. Awesome. Well, thank you again. I'm going to go ahead and stop the recording really quickly.
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-1002 -- Castillo, Marlene.
Description
An account of the resource
This oral history interview was conducted by Sophie Therber with interviewee Marlene Castillo via Zoom on August 2, 2021. The main focus is Marlene’s involvement with the Association of Mexicans in North Carolina (AMEXCAN) and her experience helping Latino immigrants mitigate the COVID pandemic and hurricanes. Marlene describes her experiencing managing AMEXCAN’s NC Latino COVID-19 Task Force, connecting a variety of stakeholders such as health departments, community-based organizations, community partners, and state leaders. A key part of Marlene’s role in addressing the COVID pandemic has to go to small businesses such as restaurants, flea markets, and stores to distribute crucial supplies and resources, as well as creating events to bring different providers together to distribute resources such as vaccines and dental screenings. She discusses the many different approaches that she and AMEXCAN have taken in order to provide as much help to immigrant communities as possible. Marlene emphasizes the need for collaboration in the face of adversity and the importance of community networks. The interviewer, Sophie Therber, is a senior at UNC Chapel Hill conducting research for her honor’s thesis in the Human Development and Family Studies department.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2021-08-03
Format
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R1002_Audio.mp3
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29190">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/3bf9ec9f8fcee93a3ec83ffed5759374.mp3
90724e0c5f7a794833494a6ec8ecc63a
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/0c63dc8735413e50d38a803b3f624d20.pdf
8667a40d7c3fa6a52556aa9791770eae
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-1001
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
Fecha
2021-08-03
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Garzón, Lariza.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Social Workers
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1982
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Santa Fe de Bogota -- Cundinmarca -- Colombia
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Raleigh -- Wake County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-74.200580 4.589180),1;POINT(-78.638176 35.779591),2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Therber, Sophie.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
This oral history interview was conducted by Sophie Therber with interviewee Lariza Garzón via Zoom on August 3, 202. The main focus is Lariza’s involvement with the Episcopal Farmworker Ministry helping farmworkers mitigate the COVID pandemic, extreme weather, and other challenges such as mental health and the collective trauma that farmworkers and immigrants face. Lariza describes working to help farmworker communities recover from hurricanes and facilitate processes of healing within these communities. Lariza draws connections between the trauma of immigration to North Carolina and the trauma associated with disasters such as hurricanes and COVID, discussing the importance of allowing community members to share this trauma and have conversations about what is needed to promote collective healing. She emphasizes the humanity of farmworker communities and the magnitude of the community response to COVID.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Lariza Garzón by Sophie Therber, 03 August 2021, R-1001, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29187
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
COVID-19; Agricultural workers; Health; Climate Change; Community and social services and programs
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Sophie Therber [00:00:01] Alright, my name is Sophie Therber, and I'm interviewing Lariza Garzón, and today is Oct -- excuse me, August 3rd, and the time is 5:08 PM. Lariza, thank you so much for allowing me to interview you.
Lariza Garzón [00:00:12] My pleasure to be here with you.
Sophie Therber [00:00:15] So just to start, where are you from? And can you tell me about that area?
Lariza Garzón [00:00:22] I...I live in Raleigh, in North Carolina, but I work in Dunn, which is a very rural area of Sampson County, most people think it's Harnett. But we are in a weird part of the Dunn where we're actually in Sampson County. It's a very rural area. Our office is completely surrounded by fields. Yep.
Sophie Therber [00:00:49] And have you always lived in that area, or are you originally from somewhere else?
Lariza Garzón [00:00:53] I'm originally from Colombia in South America. I moved to the US in '99, and I lived in Florida for a while and then I moved to Mexico and then I moved to North Carolina, where I've been for around six, seven years.
Sophie Therber [00:01:11] What influenced your decision to move to North Carolina?
Lariza Garzón [00:01:14] I found a job.
Sophie Therber [00:01:18] And what was it like to kind of be arriving in North Carolina after having lived in so many different places?
Lariza Garzón [00:01:25] It was very shocking, I think, that I had been living -- well, I have lived in Colombia first, in a big city, and then I moved to Florida and I lived in central Florida, where there's a lot of diversity. And then I moved to Mexico, to Oaxaca, and then moving here, it was just very shocking. I had never really experienced being a minority the way that I did here in North Carolina, where there are less spaces for immigrants to live their culture and experience their culture, and it was a rough transition, but I eventually got used to it.
Sophie Therber [00:02:15] And do you think that that's something that's still true today, that there is not a lot of space for immigrants, or have you seen that change since you arrived here in North Carolina?
Lariza Garzón [00:02:25] I think that there is more and more immigrants every time, but I don't really think that there's a lot of spaces for immigrants to really be their authentic self. I think that unlike other areas, like if you go to a big city, you'll find like, you know, Latinx neighborhoods or culture centers or museums or community centers and stuff like that, and I don't think there's a lot of that here in North Carolina.
Sophie Therber [00:02:59] And when you said you moved here for a job, is that the same job that you have now with the Episcopal Farmworker Ministry or was that a different job?
Lariza Garzón [00:03:06] That was a different job.
Sophie Therber [00:03:09] And can you tell me about that? I mean, what made you begin to start working at the Episcopal -- Episcopal Farmworker Ministries? Excuse me.
Lariza Garzón [00:03:17] Yeah. So I was invited to speak at a board meeting of the Episcopal Farmworker Ministry, and it was their annual retreat. I went to do a presentation about immigrants and farm workers and got to meet the board. And I thought they were great. And somebody from the board contacted me when there was this opening and they encouraged me to apply. And that's kind of how I ended up applying for this job. And it was something that I feel like it was a really good fit because I had a lot of experience with programs and just kind of like...big-picture projects, you know, so it made sense to me to take on this new position and yeah.
Sophie Therber [00:04:12] And before you started working in your current position, did you have experience working with farmworker community or was that a new community for you to be working with?
Lariza Garzón [00:04:21] No, I had experience. Basically, when I went to college, I..really, I had moved to the US in '99 and I was in college, maybe it was probably, like, around 2004, and I really wanted to go do a semester abroad in Spain and I needed just a couple of credits to be able to go. And so I looked for a class that looked really easy. And what I found was this class called internship in a Mexican-American community. And I didn't really know what it was about, really. I just signed up because the only requirement was to speak Spanish and I spoke Spanish as a first language. And so, I ended up taking this class, and my first day at this community with my internship was very shocking because there had been a series of hurricanes that had gone through Florida. This was when Floyd took place, and there were a lot of people that needed help, other people in poverty, a lot of Latinos in poverty who couldn't read or write, and my job, my first day was to help them be able to get some aid from different organizations that were there. And that same day, I learned that there was a grower that they didn't want people to go find help because they were more worried about the crops that were rotting in the fields because of the rain. And it was just a really shocking experience. And so, I've been working with farm workers ever since. I actually never even made it to Spain. I decided to go abroad to Mexico. That was the first time I went to Mexico because I was really curious and I wanted to learn more about why people were migrating and how life was there. And I've been working with this population ever since.
Sophie Therber [00:06:33] That's really interesting, especially the part about -- you were saying that there were growers who were kind of not really caring as much about the farm workers that they were working with, but caring more about the food and the crops. Can you tell me more about that? What was that like to be to be witnessing that and working with that kind of situation?
Lariza Garzón [00:06:53] I mean, for me, it was really shocking because I had -- I didn't have that many years here in the US, and so I thought about poverty very differently. Like, I thought that poverty in the US didn't ever look like poverty did back in Colombia. And when I went to this community, I realized people could be just as poor and people could be just as marginalized. Just the fact that people didn't know how to read and write was very shocking to me. And then to know that there were employers who really didn't care about the people that worked for them, but that they cared more about their profit. I mean, it was not, like, a new concept, but it was just a new low. You know, like I -- there must be an article about how they told the Red Cross to leave because the Red Cross was giving hot meals and they were just so upset that people were lining up for hot meals instead of being in the fields. And it was just really heartbreaking. That was my very first day. And I remember that part of the class, you were supposed to do like a little reflection and submit it online. And mine was super long. I was just...really touched by that experience, I think I'll never forget it.
Sophie Therber [00:08:12] So how do you feel that what you learned on that trip, I mean, you said that it was it was unforgettable and that you kind of had this reconceptualization of poverty in the US.; how do you feel that what you learned on that internship and on that trip has informed the work that you've done since then?
• Lariza Garzón [00:08:28] Well, I kind of never left that community. I think that a few things really...merged [laughs] in my life, like one was just realizing, this realization about poverty that I just shared with you. The second thing was feeling a really, really strong connection with the community. My family in Colombia, you know, used to go to small towns all the time and had really strong connections with small towns that were close to the city where we lived. And so I just felt like that same warmth and human...the quality of the humanity, of the people. It just reminded me a lot about being home. And I was very homesick at the time, and so I really found the community that resonated with me and that made me feel like there was a space for me here. And I think...It was just very touching, not just because I was watching poverty as an outsider, but also because I felt like these were my people and I needed to do something for them, you know? And so, I could have done a lot of other things. I actually remember that I was working for the Democratic Party after I graduated college, and there was a point where I could choose either job with them or a job with community, you know. And I chose to work with the community and I never really have left. And so, I think I just feel like a really strong commitment to bringing dignity and justice to the community that, you know, a community that I just admire so much and that has been so great to me personally.
Sophie Therber [00:10:36] That's amazing that you've been involved with that community so long, and I was really interested in what you were saying about just the humanity there and feeling that you belong there. That's really interesting. Can you tell me a little bit more just about your day-to-day tasks with the Episcopal Farmworkers Ministry? What kind of things, issues have you addressed there? What kinds of people are you working with?
Lariza Garzón [00:10:59] Yeah. Well, my job has kind of shifted through the time that I've been with the organization. I started in 2018, three days before the hurricanes.
Sophie Therber [00:11:10] Wow.
Lariza Garzón [00:11:11] So it was that first year. 2018 was literally just doing emergency work. At the time, there were only two people in the organization, my coworker Juan and I that were doing that on-the-ground work. And it was just, like, brutal [laughs], you know, 14-hour days trying to get supplies to people, trying to get folks with transportation so they could go back home and medication and air mattresses and trying to figure out how to help people whose homes were damaged and all that. And so I did a lot of on-the-ground work that first year, like, those first four months. And then for 2019, I kind of was able to take a step back because the emergency was not as bad, things have gotten a little bit of back to normal. So I did some fundraising. I was working a lot in internal policies, working a lot on program evaluation, and figuring out how to move forward with the organization to make sure that it was, like, the best that it could be. And then 2020, we had a lot of dreams for it. We had hired more people. [laughs] And then COVID happened. And so, we kind of had to be flexible again and reimagine our programs. So basically, as the executive director, that is what I do and what I've done the most. I've done some of the groundwork, but for the most part, I'm just there to support staff, to fundraise, to work with the board, to evaluate, to connect folks with the organization. And the truth is that what I like the most is to be with the community members. So it's really funny that this is my job because more and more, I do less direct work with the community members. But one of the things that makes me really happy about it is that I've been able to hire folks from the community. So my satisfaction is to see that we're building leadership and resilience within the community, folks that are going to stay there for a long time, because that's where their families are, that's where they have been for a long time, and they get to do the work that I love, and I get to see them grow as leaders. And so that is kind of, like, where I'm at right now. I don't know if that answered your question because I kind of went all over the place.
Sophie Therber [00:13:49] No, I appreciate it. That's super helpful. And it sounds like your job has changed so much from when you started. I kind of want to go back to when you said that you started and then three days later, there were, the hurricanes hit. So what do you think that the -- how do you feel was the greatest challenge in the organization's response to the hurricanes? What was the most difficult about that?
Lariza Garzón [00:14:12] We didn't really have a hurricane program, or like, a disaster response program. Like, most of our programs at the Ministry, we started doing the work because there is a gap and there is a need. And at the time we -- I can tell you, like I wrote a grant on my very first day of work, and the hurricane hit, and the Saturday after I was already on a -- with my friend, actually -- driving a van full of supplies, visiting camps, because I knew for a fact that there were people that didn't even know that there was a hurricane coming. I knew that they were going to be people that were in really bad shape. And so, I would say the biggest challenge was not having a program that was...that was official, and being very new to the organization and not really knowing a lot about the Ministry at the time and not having enough staff, it was just two of us, just doing so much work. I remember by the end of the year, I, like, my muscles were so defined, [laughs] my arms and stuff. Because I just remember, I was lifting stuff day and night, you know? Just doing a lot of the work. But when I think about it, it just makes me really happy because I realize the community came together. We couldn't have done the work that we were doing if it was just the two of us. We actually had over a hundred volunteers, lots of community members that were great, that even though they had damage in their own home or had suffered in some way because of the disaster, they were really taking community leadership roles and connecting us with other folks in their community who also had needs and lots of people from the churches and from the community, the greater community that made donations, lots of organizations that worked with us, like doing outreach. It was just a really great community effort. And it was very inspiring. I think I was in a way, very lucky that that was the beginning of my time at the Ministry because it allowed me to see what was possible, and I saw what was possible with very little coordination because I had just gotten there. So, I was able to like imagine future projects with like, more, more time and more resources and more intentionality. I just got like a taste of what community could do together. And it was great.
Sophie Therber [00:16:52] That's amazing. So, if you were to talk to somebody who had never experienced, like, hurricane damage before, how would you describe the -- just the level of destruction to the farmworker communities, to somebody who had never really experienced that before?
Lariza Garzón [00:17:15] Farm workers live with poverty wages, so they don't have savings to really cover any type of emergencies that come up. And when there's a disaster, they not only experience damage in their homes or their vehicles, they also experience sudden loss of work and loss of income. So not only are they...do they have a need for more income, but they actually don't have any income, and I think that's what makes it very difficult for all low-income workers and all of the low-income families that experience disasters, particularly with farm workers. The work is over because the crops get damaged. And so, many of the workers that were here with guest worker visas had to go home early without the income that they were counting on. Many of the migrant workers from Florida didn't have a way to go back to Florida. We actually had to buy them bus tickets. Many of the people in the community didn't have a stove or refrigerator anymore or like a safe house because of the reality that they're facing. And unfortunately, the laws are so unfair. Here in North Carolina, if you don't have a driver's license, you're not allowed to -- if you're not [documented], you're not allowed to have a driver's license. So a lot of the community members live in trailer parks. Well, you can't put your trailer to your name unless you have a driver's license because it's considered a vehicle. And so, if they couldn't have the trailer to their name, they couldn't get help from any organization to do home repairs. Or if they were undocumented, they didn't really qualify for a lot of the help because most of the money for disaster repairs comes from the federal government. And you must be you must be documented to be able to receive that help. And so it's just a lot, just thinking about poverty. They already -- the fact that they already lived in substandard housing that is not made to withstand strong winds and water. The fact that there's no job security, there's no benefits, that they can't qualify for help, that a lot of the organizations won't help them because they don't have papers, is just a lot. And then, like, the trauma, the trauma that comes with that. The children that can't sleep with the lights off anymore, they don't want to have toys anymore because they know they're going to get attached and they're going to lose them in a hurricane, the trauma of seeing your house being destroyed. To all of that, I would like to add that there had been some raids, some immigration raids, just like a couple of weeks ago, and people were already like dealing with so much fear. So many people didn't go to shelters because the police parked in front of the shelters here in North Carolina. It's just a lot, it's just a lot that I don't think, I don't think most folks think about when they hear about a hurricane coming.
Sophie Therber [00:20:31] Right, and I think it's really important, I mean, what you were mentioning about the trauma, I think that's something that definitely isn't always thought about or remembered in just discussing disaster --excuse me, responses to disasters such as hurricanes. That's really interesting.
Lariza Garzón [00:20:47] Yeah, we actually realized that there were no mental health services available to the community like some of the clinics had, but there were no Spanish-speaking therapists, a lot of the people told us, like it's really hard to speak with a therapist when you have a machine that is, like, basically interpreting what you're saying and doesn't feel great, or you have some interpreter on the phone and it's really hard to get an appointment, or it's just not accessible to us. And that was one of the things that we're very happy to say, that ever since we identified that need, we've been able to partner with El Futuro to provide free therapy in Spanish. And I think it's been a great service, not just because there have been people that have benefited by taking, you know, making individual appointments or group appointments, but because we've been able to talk about mental health to the community and educate folks that it's not about being crazy, but it's about dealing with trauma, dealing with anxiety, dealing with depression and things like that, and especially with COVID, that it was also really helpful to us to have that program because we were able to connect with people and offer them something that was very much needed.
Sophie Therber [00:22:08] Did any of what you learned with your experience addressing trauma in regards to hurricane damage carry over to addressing any kind of trauma that you may have witnessed because of the pandemic more recently?
Lariza Garzón [00:22:23] I mean, everything is related. I think that, you know, a lot of the people that, first, really wanted to talk about the pandemic, ended up taking therapy, not -- sorry, I said the pandemic, but I meant the hurricane. They ended up talking to their therapist about the trauma of migrating to the US, the trauma of being in an abusive work environment. It just all kind of like is connected, you know, and I think in the, especially in the immigrant community here in the US, we have this communal trauma that we never talk about, all these experiences that the community has endured for so long. But that is very taboo to bring up. People feel like they're leaving all these different things in isolation, including the pandemic, right? Women that had to stop working, and the income went down, and children that were stuck at home and in very small homes where they didn't really have the space or the technology or anything like that to succeed in school. And all of these things are...experiences that a lot of people in the community...experience. And so, we have this collective trauma that we don't really talk about all that much, but that I think is really important to bring up, and that I think that through our work, that is something else that we're trying to do. We're trying to heal as a community. We're trying to use those stories and those experiences to make sure that they never happen again, so that we can advocate, so that people can advocate to improve their own lives, so that they can change hearts and minds. Only time will tell, right? But that is part of what we're trying to do.
Sophie Therber [00:24:29] I really like your point that there are so many different layers of trauma that people are experiencing and that they're all related to each other. So, if your organization could have more support at addressing this collective communal trauma, what would those supports look like?
Lariza Garzón [00:24:45] I think that we are trying to figure out what are some, like, healing processes that community members can go through. You know, we try to open these different spaces at the ministry. Like just yesterday there was one workshop about hearing with empathy and asking folks for what you need, and so because we through our work end up sharing so much about our personal experiences, this workshop was about, like, how to tell people what we need when you share something that is traumatic. Do you need people to give you advice? Do you need people to just listen? Do you need people to give you a hug? [laughs] What is it that you need? And also, like, to listen with empathy. So you're not...comparing your experience to other people or, you know, doing all these things that we just kind of inherently do, because that's what we've been taught. And I think that's one way to heal, right, when we really listen to one another, when we ask people what we need and people give it to us and we realize -- one of the most important things for me is realize -- that people realize that this experiences didn't to happen to them in isolation. It wasn't just your family. You shouldn't be embarrassed. You know? People didn't have the same experiences, but they had different -- they had similar experiences. And that is what allows us to be a strong, resilient community because we can empathize with those that are suffering. We can empathize with those that are being abused at work. We can do something about it together because now we realize that we have these in common. And so I think the mental health piece is really important. I think the spiritual piece is really important and I think the community organizing the healing piece is really important. All these things are going to work together to create a powerful, strong, resilient community.
Sophie Therber [00:26:57] That's a really interesting point, just using empathy as a tool for healing just so that the community can become more resilient. That's that's really interesting to me. And I'm especially interested in the part that's about, like, asking for what you need. Can you tell me a little bit more about that, like you were saying about how asking for a good response when you're telling somebody some -- excuse me, telling somebody something traumatic? But can you tell me more just about that concept of asking for what you need for that kind of healing?
Lariza Garzón [00:27:28] Well, we just started these workshops yesterday, but I think the idea is that we don't re-traumatize people when they're sharing. Right. So, like if you said, you know, "I was walking down the street, and this dog bit me and I was very scared," that you can say, you know, "I just need people to listen to me talk about it. Like, I just really feel like I need to talk about it." As opposed to, like, people saying, "Well, that's not so bad. I mean, I got bit by a tiger." [laughs] I don't know, I'm making this up, right? It just, it can re-traumatize you because you need to be validated. And so that's why it's important to express your needs, because it validates your experience. It makes you feel seen. It makes you feel supported. Right? As opposed to...either people being uncomfortable and not saying anything and you feeling bad because you said something, you know, it's just like all these other scenarios that don't empower you as a person, but do the opposite, if that makes sense.
Sophie Therber [00:28:33] Yeah, that definitely makes sense. And that's really interesting. And I think the idea about re-traumatizing somebody by having a response to what they're saying is especially interesting to me. I want to switch gears a little bit, because you said something really interesting early on about your role at the Episcopal Farmworker Ministry, and that was you were saying that 2019 was more back to normal, and then in 2020 everything, you had to shift gears so quickly because of the pandemic. Can you tell me a little bit more about what that was like to just kind of have to change what you were doing so quickly in response to everything that was happening in early 2020?
Lariza Garzón [00:29:13] Yeah, like, 2019 was kind of like my year to figure out like what was going on and what could we do and what works, what doesn't work. I think as a as a leader of an organization, the first year is always that. You don't want to come to an organization and say, like, "This is what I want to do, and this is all the changes that you need to make," because you haven't been there. You're not a part of that community. So we had a lot of plans for 2020. In 2019, we started doing different things that I thought were really good for the community. Like, for example, we had these monthly celebrations. So, somebody might say, "That's, like, so excessive to have a community celebration every month." Well, one of the things I realized was, like, people didn't know each other. These are rural areas. Housing is not always, you know, close to the people in your community, like [laughs]. Or maybe you know your neighbors in your trailer park, but you don't know anybody else. And like I mentioned before, there's not, like, this barrio, or this community center, or this cultural center where people can get together and listen to their music and enjoy their themselves authentically. And so that's what we try to do. We were lie having monthly celebrations and creating community, creating bonds, creating relationships between people, evaluating our program, changing the ways that we were doing things. So, for example, I'll give you an example. With the food distributions we use to make food boxes. By the end of 2019, we had purchased shopping carts so people could choose the products that they wanted to take home. So it felt more like a shopping experience than like this is your food box charity type of thing. We had done all these little changes. And so, 2020 was really when we were going to implement a lot of these these changes and these new programs and this new project. And then, in March, we had done our monthly celebration in February for...what is it called? St. Valentine's -- no! Valentine's Day, sorry.
Sophie Therber [00:31:32] It's okay!
Sophie Therber [00:31:33] And we had the one for March. It was a health fair. Basically, it was March 15th and that's when we decided to close the office. That was the day we didn't have it. And we had to switch gears real quick. We had to decide which programs would go away. So ESL classes went away, trips for children went away, community celebrations went away. Right? Like, all these things that required a lot of in-person stuff went away. And we decided, okay, this is going to be just like the hurricanes. We need to switch gears. How are we going to respond? People are not going to have money. All these restaurants are closing. Construction is not happening. The farmers are not planting as much. People are not going to have jobs. What are we going to do? We started collecting money for an emergency fund at the time. We also knew that the government was just going to be for documented folks. And so we were trying to be creative, like trying to figure out like, okay, so how do we help our community? How do we help these people? And it was really cool. In just a few weeks, we collected $60,000 from small donations. I think there was a $10,000 grant there, so might have been, like, 50. But it was people that wanted to donate their stimulus check for somebody else who needed it. People that made $25 donations. We collected enough money to help 600 families with $500 checks. And then we got, with time, we ended up getting more grants, and I think we've helped over 700 families now, and for those that died of COVID, we were giving a thousand dollars to their families. Our emergency fund has been only for agricultural workers and their families. So, that was something we did really quickly then, we food was going to be an issue. So we started doing food distributions. We used to do once -- the food distributions used to happen once a month, and we would do between 90 to 120 families. We're still doing them right now. We do them twice a month now and we get between 250 to 300 families per event every two weeks. So, that was, like, a huge change. Like, the first time that we did a food distribution after the pandemic, after we closed the office for the pandemic, the line was three miles long. You could see it on Google Maps. We had to turn people away. We were not prepared. We did not know what we were dealing with that day [laughs] when we prepped, but we got it right and now it's a fast process, and people are still coming for help. And I think what people don't realize is that even though a lot of the jobs have opened again, people acquired debt during those first months, and people had extra expenses, and people lost income because a lot of the moms had to stop working, and so many people didn't get paid for quarantine. It's just like an ongoing kind of situation that people are still having to deal with. And then, you know, we realized that nobody was doing outreach in the community, educating people about the pandemic. So we started doing that. We created a community leadership team with 10 people who are from the community and trained them on the pandemic and started doing outreach door-to-door with them. The team got vaccinated in February, and they started doing the door-to-door visits. They also visited laundromats and tiendas and bakeries and different things like that. And then we started doing vaccination events, and there have been over a thousand vaccinations administered in our events. And I always feel very proud about that because we're not a clinic, we're not a health organization, and we're doing the work that a lot of these places refused to do. And I think it's great that people trust us enough that they would like to get vaccinated with us. So a lot of our work right now is focused on COVID. We're still doing disaster work. We still have a women's group. We still have mental health services. Everything is related, though. You know, mental health now is more for people who we're feeling very isolated or very stressed or, you know, got sick with COVID or whatever. The disaster work is still for people that haven't been able to recover from the hurricanes, but under that umbrella, we have the COVID response program because this is a disaster, even though it's not a hurricane, right? The women's group had to adapt. We used to have stuff that would take place in-person. Well, the women got organized. They started teaching each other different skills, like how to cook different things and how to make different things through Zoom. We started a women's circle, also, to talk about what it what it's like to be a woman and how that -- what that means for each one of us. That's also done through Zoom. We did some classes through Zoom, workshops through Zoom, Facebook live. Food distribution became kind of like not just a food distribution event, but information. Like, so many people, government agencies, other organizations, they would all come to our events to get to people because we would get so many families in one day. So everything has just kind of evolved and adapted to the pandemic, really. But the cool thing is that we continue to grow and people continue to get involved, and that's what makes our work possible.
Sophie Therber [00:37:47] That's so interesting to me that, I mean, you had to stop the monthly celebrations because of COVID, but then people still were able to come together as a community and raise that $60,000 so quickly. That's so amazing to me. What are other ways that you feel like you've seen the community kind of coming together and that kind of way?
Lariza Garzón [00:38:12] I mean, we are a small organization, and we do [a] crazy amount of work. Everything that we do requires community participation. And I think that's the beauty of it, whether it is people from the community itself that come to volunteer, like right now, every Friday, there's women from the community that go to sort clothes and food and hygiene items and work, basically. They volunteer to make sure that we can do our work. Or funders or church people. It's just constant. We just had an event -- [laughs] this is really cute, too. So, one of the events that we used to do before, like in 2019, right? Every month we would have this celebration and we would have one for back-to-school. That would always happen in July. We would do a back-to-school party and we would have piñatas the for the kids and contests and everything, and then they would go in the building and they would get a backpack with school supplies. And we would give supplies to like, 250 kids. And it was a great, it was a great day. Right. Well, during the pandemic that list was 450, and we did not think we were going to do it last year. It was just like, how are we going to get 450 backpacks? We absolutely got them. All these churches got together. They put together the backpacks, we distributed them via, like, drive-through, and it was great. This year, the demand was even higher because what happened during the pandemic also is that more people got to connect through us, to us, you know. And so, the demand was higher and we were able to collect supplies for 1000 kids. So last Saturday, we distributed the first 500. We're doing the second 500 on August 14th. And we did, we knew that we couldn't do like in-person, especially with Delta. Like, you know, having a bunch of kids around was a terrible idea. But we got really creative, and we dressed up like, you know, TV characters and set up different stations. I think it was, like, 16 stations where people would stop in their car and they would get information about different programs and supplies and backpacks and lemonade. And so the cool thing is that, you know, we had, like, 40 volunteers for this event just last Saturday.
Sophie Therber [00:40:57] Wow.
Lariza Garzón [00:40:57] The pandemic doesn't stop people from doing the right thing. It's always a community effort and it always works, only because community members are involved. And that's what's really inspiring about this work. There's a lot of heartbreaking stuff, but the humanity that you see, the resilience, the solidarity that you see is what really, you know, stays with you.
Sophie Therber [00:41:29] That is so heartwarming, especially the part [both laugh] where you said that you decided to dress up as different characters, that's so -- that's such a good idea. And that's really amazing that you were able to think of that response on the fly after having to adapt so much. I mean, just not being able to do anything in-person. That alone is a huge challenge. And that just in conjunction with all of the other challenges that you and your organization and the community as a whole have faced, that's really amazing.
Lariza Garzón [00:41:59] Yeah, we had a great time.
Sophie Therber [00:42:03] So, you said that when COVID first -- the pandemic first was happening, and your office closed on March 15th, the thinking was: this is going to be just like the hurricanes. Can you tell me some of the ways that your organization's response to the hurricanes has been similar to your organization's response to COVID?
Lariza Garzón [00:42:25] We used the same model. We used the same exact model. We had community members doing door-to-door education. We've done that for hurricanes. We've done that for COVID. When it was the hurricanes, they were teaching people how to have an emergency kit and how to get alerts and information. Now, it was like how to use your mask. You know, what to do if your employee doesn't pay your quarantine. Where to look for help and where to get vaccinated. What questions do you have? [laughs] You know, like, do you need food? It's been exactly the same model. One hundred percent. Rely on community members that know what's going on. Most of the people right now that -- you know, for the first program in 2019, it was folks that had been directly affected by the hurricanes. Our group of promoters right now are people that had COVID and work in agriculture, or like are immigrant...like, [...] how do you say...like, essential workers. Because that's the thing, they can tell us what's going on. It has to be that way because otherwise, we sit in an office and we decide what people need. That never works. You need to know from the people what they need. And so, a good example. When we were working on hurricanes, the Red Cross would drop like hundreds of buckets of cleaning supplies in our office. And we were all like, "We don't need this." You know, we don't need this. Like, what people need is X, Y, Z. How do we know? Because we are working with ten community leaders who are going to their neighbors' homes, who are going here and there, and they're finding out for us, and they're gathering data, and we respond to the needs. We don't come up with solutions without knowing. And it's the same thing here. We were able to establish really quickly, like what are the things that people are scared of for the vaccine? Who are the bad employers that are not providing masks? Who do we need to talk to, to put pressure on those employers like? You know...a lot of the work that we're doing is exactly the same model because also with that information, we can do advocacy better, and we do advocacy with the community leaders so they can speak exactly about what's going on in a way that we would never be able to do, that. We are providing direct services. We are providing community education. We are providing leadership development to the community leaders. And then, the advocacy piece is also really important because we've met with the governor's office, we've met with DHHS [Department of Health and Human Services], we've met with the Department of Agriculture, et cetera, et cetera. People in the community are having access to these government representatives to really speak about what's going on in ways that nobody else could and I don't think that Episcopal Farmworker Ministry is going to solve the issue of the pandemic any time soon [laughs], but I think what we're doing is that we're building leadership in these communities so that when there's another pandemic, they're going to be in a better place to face the challenges. And we are encouraging people to get vaccinated, just like we were encouraging people to put together an emergency kit with the hope that. We don't get to decide for people, we don't pressure them, we give them accurate information because this community doesn't usually have access to accurate information in their language. They can understand, and we trust that they will make the best decision for themselves and for their families. And that's what we're seeing.
Sophie Therber [00:46:25] That example about the Red Cross dropping off so many materials that weren't even needed by organization is really powerful. Are there other instances where or other organizations or even government actors or other actors like that have tried to provide for your organization and the farmworker community, but just been a little bit out of touch with what's actually needed?
Lariza Garzón [00:46:51] I kind of feel bad about using the Red Cross as an example, because they do so much for the community, especially in times of need, but I think there is always that disconnect, right? Like, I remember another thing that happened with a pandemic in the beginning was that someone in the government, I can't even remember what agency, they decided that in order to protect guest workers who were coming here from Mexico, that they would only allow one person in each camp to go shopping, and that they would provide these letters that people could show the cashier that were saying they were shopping for the whole camp, right? Now, imagine the mental health impact that these would have on workers, maybe if you're sitting in an office, you're thinking, this is great. That's the best solution. Give me just a second.
Sophie Therber [00:47:51] Oh, yeah, for sure. [pause]
Lariza Garzón [00:47:56] So you might think like, "Oh, yeah, we're protecting workers, we're doing great." Well, these workers, imagine, work and live with the same people. Every single day of their lives, they don't have any privacy. They're literally working all day long with the same people that they live with. And the only day and the only experience that they have where they get to see other folks is when they go shopping. And not only that, but they don't have control over so many things in their life, they don't control their schedule, they don't control their movements because they don't have transportation, they don't control so many things about their lives. And now they won't even be able to control the food that they buy. They have to tell somebody else to buy them something. But it might not be the brand or the variety or the kind of things that they like. It was, it was just heartbreaking to hear government officials talk about protecting workers, in a way that felt like it was very paternalistic to me, because you wouldn't do that, you wouldn't say like, "Okay, now all the doctors, we need to all very healthy, so we're not going to let you go shopping." So there's stuff like that that always comes up that is just very well-intentioned, but at the end of the day does more harm than good, right? I think that happens because folks don't take the time to really get to know the community or because historically those relationships don't exist. Like, the pandemic kind of highlighted that. It's not that government officials are bad, it's just that this community has been so marginalized and they're never taken into account. And so now we needed these essential workers, and nobody really knew anything about them because nobody has ever put a place on the table for them, you know?
Sophie Therber [00:49:59] Right, and I think that that story illustrates a really significant part of dealing with the disasters, which is the lack of control that people feel that they have over their everyday lives and their choices. And then that just kind of being increased by, as you said, the government response kind of eroding the few areas where they do have control. So that's really interesting.
Lariza Garzón [00:50:23] Yeah, there's a lot of of that that takes place, you know. But I think that's why there's agencies like us like we can say, "Hold on a moment, [laughs] these are the reasons why this won't be a good idea." And whether or not they listen to us, that's a whole nother thing.
Sophie Therber [00:50:46] Do you feel that when you say that things like that aren't a good idea, has that been received well? Do people listen?
Lariza Garzón [00:50:54] Some people do, and some people don't.
Sophie Therber [00:50:59] Right. Is there any way, I mean, just in general, how do you feel that the governmental agencies or other kind of larger organizations have received feedback from organizations like Episcopal Farmworker Ministry?
Lariza Garzón [00:51:21] I think that at least in North Carolina, the interest of businesses has been the priority over the safety of essential workers, and I think I say that knowing that there have been incredible efforts on the part of some of the agencies to get folks vaccinated and to provide support, but I think that more could be done if we held employers responsible for some of the working conditions that could affect the health of workers. And I think that the government is not willing to do that.
Sophie Therber [00:52:05] Well, thank you so much for that response. I think that's really interesting and that's really helpful and especially what you were saying about just North Carolina kind of placing the interests of businesses over the safety of essential workers. Is there anything that you would like to add for this interview before I stop the recording?
Lariza Garzón [00:52:22] That's all. Thank you so much.
Sophie Therber [00:52:23] Okay, awesome. I'm going to go ahead and stop the recording in just a moment.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Trabajadores sociales
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Esta entrevista de historia oral fue realizada por Sophie Therber con la entrevistada Lariza Garzón vía Zoom el 3 de agosto de 2021. El tema central es la participación de Lariza en el Ministerio Episcopal de los Trabajadores Agrícolas ayudando a los trabajadores agrícolas a mitigar la pandemia del COVID, el clima extremo y otros desafíos como la salud mental y el trauma colectivo que enfrentan los trabajadores agrícolas y los inmigrantes. Aquí Lariza describe su trabajo para ayudar a las comunidades de trabajadores agrícolas a recuperarse de los huracanes y facilitar los procesos de sanación dentro de esas comunidades. Lariza establece conexiones entre el trauma de la inmigración a Carolina del Norte y el trauma asociado con los desastres tales como los huracanes y el COVID, discutiendo la importancia de permitir a los miembros de la comunidad compartir este trauma y tener conversaciones acerca de lo que es necesario para promover la sanación colectiva. Ella hace énfasis en la humanidad de las comunidades de trabajadores agrícolas y la magnitud de la respuesta comunitaria frente al COVID.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Lariza Garzón por Sophie Therber, 03 August 2021, R-1001, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
COVID-19; Trabajadores agrícolas; Salud; Cambio climático; Programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios
Es: Transcripción
Sophie Therber [00:00:01] Alright, my name is Sophie Therber, and I'm interviewing Lariza Garzón, and today is Oct -- excuse me, August 3rd, and the time is 5:08 PM. Lariza, thank you so much for allowing me to interview you.
Lariza Garzón [00:00:12] My pleasure to be here with you.
Sophie Therber [00:00:15] So just to start, where are you from? And can you tell me about that area?
Lariza Garzón [00:00:22] I...I live in Raleigh, in North Carolina, but I work in Dunn, which is a very rural area of Sampson County, most people think it's Harnett. But we are in a weird part of the Dunn where we're actually in Sampson County. It's a very rural area. Our office is completely surrounded by fields. Yep.
Sophie Therber [00:00:49] And have you always lived in that area, or are you originally from somewhere else?
Lariza Garzón [00:00:53] I'm originally from Colombia in South America. I moved to the US in '99, and I lived in Florida for a while and then I moved to Mexico and then I moved to North Carolina, where I've been for around six, seven years.
Sophie Therber [00:01:11] What influenced your decision to move to North Carolina?
Lariza Garzón [00:01:14] I found a job.
Sophie Therber [00:01:18] And what was it like to kind of be arriving in North Carolina after having lived in so many different places?
Lariza Garzón [00:01:25] It was very shocking, I think, that I had been living -- well, I have lived in Colombia first, in a big city, and then I moved to Florida and I lived in central Florida, where there's a lot of diversity. And then I moved to Mexico, to Oaxaca, and then moving here, it was just very shocking. I had never really experienced being a minority the way that I did here in North Carolina, where there are less spaces for immigrants to live their culture and experience their culture, and it was a rough transition, but I eventually got used to it.
Sophie Therber [00:02:15] And do you think that that's something that's still true today, that there is not a lot of space for immigrants, or have you seen that change since you arrived here in North Carolina?
Lariza Garzón [00:02:25] I think that there is more and more immigrants every time, but I don't really think that there's a lot of spaces for immigrants to really be their authentic self. I think that unlike other areas, like if you go to a big city, you'll find like, you know, Latinx neighborhoods or culture centers or museums or community centers and stuff like that, and I don't think there's a lot of that here in North Carolina.
Sophie Therber [00:02:59] And when you said you moved here for a job, is that the same job that you have now with the Episcopal Farmworker Ministry or was that a different job?
Lariza Garzón [00:03:06] That was a different job.
Sophie Therber [00:03:09] And can you tell me about that? I mean, what made you begin to start working at the Episcopal -- Episcopal Farmworker Ministries? Excuse me.
Lariza Garzón [00:03:17] Yeah. So I was invited to speak at a board meeting of the Episcopal Farmworker Ministry, and it was their annual retreat. I went to do a presentation about immigrants and farm workers and got to meet the board. And I thought they were great. And somebody from the board contacted me when there was this opening and they encouraged me to apply. And that's kind of how I ended up applying for this job. And it was something that I feel like it was a really good fit because I had a lot of experience with programs and just kind of like...big-picture projects, you know, so it made sense to me to take on this new position and yeah.
Sophie Therber [00:04:12] And before you started working in your current position, did you have experience working with farmworker community or was that a new community for you to be working with?
Lariza Garzón [00:04:21] No, I had experience. Basically, when I went to college, I..really, I had moved to the US in '99 and I was in college, maybe it was probably, like, around 2004, and I really wanted to go do a semester abroad in Spain and I needed just a couple of credits to be able to go. And so I looked for a class that looked really easy. And what I found was this class called internship in a Mexican-American community. And I didn't really know what it was about, really. I just signed up because the only requirement was to speak Spanish and I spoke Spanish as a first language. And so, I ended up taking this class, and my first day at this community with my internship was very shocking because there had been a series of hurricanes that had gone through Florida. This was when Floyd took place, and there were a lot of people that needed help, other people in poverty, a lot of Latinos in poverty who couldn't read or write, and my job, my first day was to help them be able to get some aid from different organizations that were there. And that same day, I learned that there was a grower that they didn't want people to go find help because they were more worried about the crops that were rotting in the fields because of the rain. And it was just a really shocking experience. And so, I've been working with farm workers ever since. I actually never even made it to Spain. I decided to go abroad to Mexico. That was the first time I went to Mexico because I was really curious and I wanted to learn more about why people were migrating and how life was there. And I've been working with this population ever since.
Sophie Therber [00:06:33] That's really interesting, especially the part about -- you were saying that there were growers who were kind of not really caring as much about the farm workers that they were working with, but caring more about the food and the crops. Can you tell me more about that? What was that like to be to be witnessing that and working with that kind of situation?
Lariza Garzón [00:06:53] I mean, for me, it was really shocking because I had -- I didn't have that many years here in the US, and so I thought about poverty very differently. Like, I thought that poverty in the US didn't ever look like poverty did back in Colombia. And when I went to this community, I realized people could be just as poor and people could be just as marginalized. Just the fact that people didn't know how to read and write was very shocking to me. And then to know that there were employers who really didn't care about the people that worked for them, but that they cared more about their profit. I mean, it was not, like, a new concept, but it was just a new low. You know, like I -- there must be an article about how they told the Red Cross to leave because the Red Cross was giving hot meals and they were just so upset that people were lining up for hot meals instead of being in the fields. And it was just really heartbreaking. That was my very first day. And I remember that part of the class, you were supposed to do like a little reflection and submit it online. And mine was super long. I was just...really touched by that experience, I think I'll never forget it.
Sophie Therber [00:08:12] So how do you feel that what you learned on that trip, I mean, you said that it was it was unforgettable and that you kind of had this reconceptualization of poverty in the US.; how do you feel that what you learned on that internship and on that trip has informed the work that you've done since then?
• Lariza Garzón [00:08:28] Well, I kind of never left that community. I think that a few things really...merged [laughs] in my life, like one was just realizing, this realization about poverty that I just shared with you. The second thing was feeling a really, really strong connection with the community. My family in Colombia, you know, used to go to small towns all the time and had really strong connections with small towns that were close to the city where we lived. And so I just felt like that same warmth and human...the quality of the humanity, of the people. It just reminded me a lot about being home. And I was very homesick at the time, and so I really found the community that resonated with me and that made me feel like there was a space for me here. And I think...It was just very touching, not just because I was watching poverty as an outsider, but also because I felt like these were my people and I needed to do something for them, you know? And so, I could have done a lot of other things. I actually remember that I was working for the Democratic Party after I graduated college, and there was a point where I could choose either job with them or a job with community, you know. And I chose to work with the community and I never really have left. And so, I think I just feel like a really strong commitment to bringing dignity and justice to the community that, you know, a community that I just admire so much and that has been so great to me personally.
Sophie Therber [00:10:36] That's amazing that you've been involved with that community so long, and I was really interested in what you were saying about just the humanity there and feeling that you belong there. That's really interesting. Can you tell me a little bit more just about your day-to-day tasks with the Episcopal Farmworkers Ministry? What kind of things, issues have you addressed there? What kinds of people are you working with?
Lariza Garzón [00:10:59] Yeah. Well, my job has kind of shifted through the time that I've been with the organization. I started in 2018, three days before the hurricanes.
Sophie Therber [00:11:10] Wow.
Lariza Garzón [00:11:11] So it was that first year. 2018 was literally just doing emergency work. At the time, there were only two people in the organization, my coworker Juan and I that were doing that on-the-ground work. And it was just, like, brutal [laughs], you know, 14-hour days trying to get supplies to people, trying to get folks with transportation so they could go back home and medication and air mattresses and trying to figure out how to help people whose homes were damaged and all that. And so I did a lot of on-the-ground work that first year, like, those first four months. And then for 2019, I kind of was able to take a step back because the emergency was not as bad, things have gotten a little bit of back to normal. So I did some fundraising. I was working a lot in internal policies, working a lot on program evaluation, and figuring out how to move forward with the organization to make sure that it was, like, the best that it could be. And then 2020, we had a lot of dreams for it. We had hired more people. [laughs] And then COVID happened. And so, we kind of had to be flexible again and reimagine our programs. So basically, as the executive director, that is what I do and what I've done the most. I've done some of the groundwork, but for the most part, I'm just there to support staff, to fundraise, to work with the board, to evaluate, to connect folks with the organization. And the truth is that what I like the most is to be with the community members. So it's really funny that this is my job because more and more, I do less direct work with the community members. But one of the things that makes me really happy about it is that I've been able to hire folks from the community. So my satisfaction is to see that we're building leadership and resilience within the community, folks that are going to stay there for a long time, because that's where their families are, that's where they have been for a long time, and they get to do the work that I love, and I get to see them grow as leaders. And so that is kind of, like, where I'm at right now. I don't know if that answered your question because I kind of went all over the place.
Sophie Therber [00:13:49] No, I appreciate it. That's super helpful. And it sounds like your job has changed so much from when you started. I kind of want to go back to when you said that you started and then three days later, there were, the hurricanes hit. So what do you think that the -- how do you feel was the greatest challenge in the organization's response to the hurricanes? What was the most difficult about that?
Lariza Garzón [00:14:12] We didn't really have a hurricane program, or like, a disaster response program. Like, most of our programs at the Ministry, we started doing the work because there is a gap and there is a need. And at the time we -- I can tell you, like I wrote a grant on my very first day of work, and the hurricane hit, and the Saturday after I was already on a -- with my friend, actually -- driving a van full of supplies, visiting camps, because I knew for a fact that there were people that didn't even know that there was a hurricane coming. I knew that they were going to be people that were in really bad shape. And so, I would say the biggest challenge was not having a program that was...that was official, and being very new to the organization and not really knowing a lot about the Ministry at the time and not having enough staff, it was just two of us, just doing so much work. I remember by the end of the year, I, like, my muscles were so defined, [laughs] my arms and stuff. Because I just remember, I was lifting stuff day and night, you know? Just doing a lot of the work. But when I think about it, it just makes me really happy because I realize the community came together. We couldn't have done the work that we were doing if it was just the two of us. We actually had over a hundred volunteers, lots of community members that were great, that even though they had damage in their own home or had suffered in some way because of the disaster, they were really taking community leadership roles and connecting us with other folks in their community who also had needs and lots of people from the churches and from the community, the greater community that made donations, lots of organizations that worked with us, like doing outreach. It was just a really great community effort. And it was very inspiring. I think I was in a way, very lucky that that was the beginning of my time at the Ministry because it allowed me to see what was possible, and I saw what was possible with very little coordination because I had just gotten there. So, I was able to like imagine future projects with like, more, more time and more resources and more intentionality. I just got like a taste of what community could do together. And it was great.
Sophie Therber [00:16:52] That's amazing. So, if you were to talk to somebody who had never experienced, like, hurricane damage before, how would you describe the -- just the level of destruction to the farmworker communities, to somebody who had never really experienced that before?
Lariza Garzón [00:17:15] Farm workers live with poverty wages, so they don't have savings to really cover any type of emergencies that come up. And when there's a disaster, they not only experience damage in their homes or their vehicles, they also experience sudden loss of work and loss of income. So not only are they...do they have a need for more income, but they actually don't have any income, and I think that's what makes it very difficult for all low-income workers and all of the low-income families that experience disasters, particularly with farm workers. The work is over because the crops get damaged. And so, many of the workers that were here with guest worker visas had to go home early without the income that they were counting on. Many of the migrant workers from Florida didn't have a way to go back to Florida. We actually had to buy them bus tickets. Many of the people in the community didn't have a stove or refrigerator anymore or like a safe house because of the reality that they're facing. And unfortunately, the laws are so unfair. Here in North Carolina, if you don't have a driver's license, you're not allowed to -- if you're not [documented], you're not allowed to have a driver's license. So a lot of the community members live in trailer parks. Well, you can't put your trailer to your name unless you have a driver's license because it's considered a vehicle. And so, if they couldn't have the trailer to their name, they couldn't get help from any organization to do home repairs. Or if they were undocumented, they didn't really qualify for a lot of the help because most of the money for disaster repairs comes from the federal government. And you must be you must be documented to be able to receive that help. And so it's just a lot, just thinking about poverty. They already -- the fact that they already lived in substandard housing that is not made to withstand strong winds and water. The fact that there's no job security, there's no benefits, that they can't qualify for help, that a lot of the organizations won't help them because they don't have papers, is just a lot. And then, like, the trauma, the trauma that comes with that. The children that can't sleep with the lights off anymore, they don't want to have toys anymore because they know they're going to get attached and they're going to lose them in a hurricane, the trauma of seeing your house being destroyed. To all of that, I would like to add that there had been some raids, some immigration raids, just like a couple of weeks ago, and people were already like dealing with so much fear. So many people didn't go to shelters because the police parked in front of the shelters here in North Carolina. It's just a lot, it's just a lot that I don't think, I don't think most folks think about when they hear about a hurricane coming.
Sophie Therber [00:20:31] Right, and I think it's really important, I mean, what you were mentioning about the trauma, I think that's something that definitely isn't always thought about or remembered in just discussing disaster --excuse me, responses to disasters such as hurricanes. That's really interesting.
Lariza Garzón [00:20:47] Yeah, we actually realized that there were no mental health services available to the community like some of the clinics had, but there were no Spanish-speaking therapists, a lot of the people told us, like it's really hard to speak with a therapist when you have a machine that is, like, basically interpreting what you're saying and doesn't feel great, or you have some interpreter on the phone and it's really hard to get an appointment, or it's just not accessible to us. And that was one of the things that we're very happy to say, that ever since we identified that need, we've been able to partner with El Futuro to provide free therapy in Spanish. And I think it's been a great service, not just because there have been people that have benefited by taking, you know, making individual appointments or group appointments, but because we've been able to talk about mental health to the community and educate folks that it's not about being crazy, but it's about dealing with trauma, dealing with anxiety, dealing with depression and things like that, and especially with COVID, that it was also really helpful to us to have that program because we were able to connect with people and offer them something that was very much needed.
Sophie Therber [00:22:08] Did any of what you learned with your experience addressing trauma in regards to hurricane damage carry over to addressing any kind of trauma that you may have witnessed because of the pandemic more recently?
Lariza Garzón [00:22:23] I mean, everything is related. I think that, you know, a lot of the people that, first, really wanted to talk about the pandemic, ended up taking therapy, not -- sorry, I said the pandemic, but I meant the hurricane. They ended up talking to their therapist about the trauma of migrating to the US, the trauma of being in an abusive work environment. It just all kind of like is connected, you know, and I think in the, especially in the immigrant community here in the US, we have this communal trauma that we never talk about, all these experiences that the community has endured for so long. But that is very taboo to bring up. People feel like they're leaving all these different things in isolation, including the pandemic, right? Women that had to stop working, and the income went down, and children that were stuck at home and in very small homes where they didn't really have the space or the technology or anything like that to succeed in school. And all of these things are...experiences that a lot of people in the community...experience. And so, we have this collective trauma that we don't really talk about all that much, but that I think is really important to bring up, and that I think that through our work, that is something else that we're trying to do. We're trying to heal as a community. We're trying to use those stories and those experiences to make sure that they never happen again, so that we can advocate, so that people can advocate to improve their own lives, so that they can change hearts and minds. Only time will tell, right? But that is part of what we're trying to do.
Sophie Therber [00:24:29] I really like your point that there are so many different layers of trauma that people are experiencing and that they're all related to each other. So, if your organization could have more support at addressing this collective communal trauma, what would those supports look like?
Lariza Garzón [00:24:45] I think that we are trying to figure out what are some, like, healing processes that community members can go through. You know, we try to open these different spaces at the ministry. Like just yesterday there was one workshop about hearing with empathy and asking folks for what you need, and so because we through our work end up sharing so much about our personal experiences, this workshop was about, like, how to tell people what we need when you share something that is traumatic. Do you need people to give you advice? Do you need people to just listen? Do you need people to give you a hug? [laughs] What is it that you need? And also, like, to listen with empathy. So you're not...comparing your experience to other people or, you know, doing all these things that we just kind of inherently do, because that's what we've been taught. And I think that's one way to heal, right, when we really listen to one another, when we ask people what we need and people give it to us and we realize -- one of the most important things for me is realize -- that people realize that this experiences didn't to happen to them in isolation. It wasn't just your family. You shouldn't be embarrassed. You know? People didn't have the same experiences, but they had different -- they had similar experiences. And that is what allows us to be a strong, resilient community because we can empathize with those that are suffering. We can empathize with those that are being abused at work. We can do something about it together because now we realize that we have these in common. And so I think the mental health piece is really important. I think the spiritual piece is really important and I think the community organizing the healing piece is really important. All these things are going to work together to create a powerful, strong, resilient community.
Sophie Therber [00:26:57] That's a really interesting point, just using empathy as a tool for healing just so that the community can become more resilient. That's that's really interesting to me. And I'm especially interested in the part that's about, like, asking for what you need. Can you tell me a little bit more about that, like you were saying about how asking for a good response when you're telling somebody some -- excuse me, telling somebody something traumatic? But can you tell me more just about that concept of asking for what you need for that kind of healing?
Lariza Garzón [00:27:28] Well, we just started these workshops yesterday, but I think the idea is that we don't re-traumatize people when they're sharing. Right. So, like if you said, you know, "I was walking down the street, and this dog bit me and I was very scared," that you can say, you know, "I just need people to listen to me talk about it. Like, I just really feel like I need to talk about it." As opposed to, like, people saying, "Well, that's not so bad. I mean, I got bit by a tiger." [laughs] I don't know, I'm making this up, right? It just, it can re-traumatize you because you need to be validated. And so that's why it's important to express your needs, because it validates your experience. It makes you feel seen. It makes you feel supported. Right? As opposed to...either people being uncomfortable and not saying anything and you feeling bad because you said something, you know, it's just like all these other scenarios that don't empower you as a person, but do the opposite, if that makes sense.
Sophie Therber [00:28:33] Yeah, that definitely makes sense. And that's really interesting. And I think the idea about re-traumatizing somebody by having a response to what they're saying is especially interesting to me. I want to switch gears a little bit, because you said something really interesting early on about your role at the Episcopal Farmworker Ministry, and that was you were saying that 2019 was more back to normal, and then in 2020 everything, you had to shift gears so quickly because of the pandemic. Can you tell me a little bit more about what that was like to just kind of have to change what you were doing so quickly in response to everything that was happening in early 2020?
Lariza Garzón [00:29:13] Yeah, like, 2019 was kind of like my year to figure out like what was going on and what could we do and what works, what doesn't work. I think as a as a leader of an organization, the first year is always that. You don't want to come to an organization and say, like, "This is what I want to do, and this is all the changes that you need to make," because you haven't been there. You're not a part of that community. So we had a lot of plans for 2020. In 2019, we started doing different things that I thought were really good for the community. Like, for example, we had these monthly celebrations. So, somebody might say, "That's, like, so excessive to have a community celebration every month." Well, one of the things I realized was, like, people didn't know each other. These are rural areas. Housing is not always, you know, close to the people in your community, like [laughs]. Or maybe you know your neighbors in your trailer park, but you don't know anybody else. And like I mentioned before, there's not, like, this barrio, or this community center, or this cultural center where people can get together and listen to their music and enjoy their themselves authentically. And so that's what we try to do. We were lie having monthly celebrations and creating community, creating bonds, creating relationships between people, evaluating our program, changing the ways that we were doing things. So, for example, I'll give you an example. With the food distributions we use to make food boxes. By the end of 2019, we had purchased shopping carts so people could choose the products that they wanted to take home. So it felt more like a shopping experience than like this is your food box charity type of thing. We had done all these little changes. And so, 2020 was really when we were going to implement a lot of these these changes and these new programs and this new project. And then, in March, we had done our monthly celebration in February for...what is it called? St. Valentine's -- no! Valentine's Day, sorry.
Sophie Therber [00:31:32] It's okay!
Sophie Therber [00:31:33] And we had the one for March. It was a health fair. Basically, it was March 15th and that's when we decided to close the office. That was the day we didn't have it. And we had to switch gears real quick. We had to decide which programs would go away. So ESL classes went away, trips for children went away, community celebrations went away. Right? Like, all these things that required a lot of in-person stuff went away. And we decided, okay, this is going to be just like the hurricanes. We need to switch gears. How are we going to respond? People are not going to have money. All these restaurants are closing. Construction is not happening. The farmers are not planting as much. People are not going to have jobs. What are we going to do? We started collecting money for an emergency fund at the time. We also knew that the government was just going to be for documented folks. And so we were trying to be creative, like trying to figure out like, okay, so how do we help our community? How do we help these people? And it was really cool. In just a few weeks, we collected $60,000 from small donations. I think there was a $10,000 grant there, so might have been, like, 50. But it was people that wanted to donate their stimulus check for somebody else who needed it. People that made $25 donations. We collected enough money to help 600 families with $500 checks. And then we got, with time, we ended up getting more grants, and I think we've helped over 700 families now, and for those that died of COVID, we were giving a thousand dollars to their families. Our emergency fund has been only for agricultural workers and their families. So, that was something we did really quickly then, we food was going to be an issue. So we started doing food distributions. We used to do once -- the food distributions used to happen once a month, and we would do between 90 to 120 families. We're still doing them right now. We do them twice a month now and we get between 250 to 300 families per event every two weeks. So, that was, like, a huge change. Like, the first time that we did a food distribution after the pandemic, after we closed the office for the pandemic, the line was three miles long. You could see it on Google Maps. We had to turn people away. We were not prepared. We did not know what we were dealing with that day [laughs] when we prepped, but we got it right and now it's a fast process, and people are still coming for help. And I think what people don't realize is that even though a lot of the jobs have opened again, people acquired debt during those first months, and people had extra expenses, and people lost income because a lot of the moms had to stop working, and so many people didn't get paid for quarantine. It's just like an ongoing kind of situation that people are still having to deal with. And then, you know, we realized that nobody was doing outreach in the community, educating people about the pandemic. So we started doing that. We created a community leadership team with 10 people who are from the community and trained them on the pandemic and started doing outreach door-to-door with them. The team got vaccinated in February, and they started doing the door-to-door visits. They also visited laundromats and tiendas and bakeries and different things like that. And then we started doing vaccination events, and there have been over a thousand vaccinations administered in our events. And I always feel very proud about that because we're not a clinic, we're not a health organization, and we're doing the work that a lot of these places refused to do. And I think it's great that people trust us enough that they would like to get vaccinated with us. So a lot of our work right now is focused on COVID. We're still doing disaster work. We still have a women's group. We still have mental health services. Everything is related, though. You know, mental health now is more for people who we're feeling very isolated or very stressed or, you know, got sick with COVID or whatever. The disaster work is still for people that haven't been able to recover from the hurricanes, but under that umbrella, we have the COVID response program because this is a disaster, even though it's not a hurricane, right? The women's group had to adapt. We used to have stuff that would take place in-person. Well, the women got organized. They started teaching each other different skills, like how to cook different things and how to make different things through Zoom. We started a women's circle, also, to talk about what it what it's like to be a woman and how that -- what that means for each one of us. That's also done through Zoom. We did some classes through Zoom, workshops through Zoom, Facebook live. Food distribution became kind of like not just a food distribution event, but information. Like, so many people, government agencies, other organizations, they would all come to our events to get to people because we would get so many families in one day. So everything has just kind of evolved and adapted to the pandemic, really. But the cool thing is that we continue to grow and people continue to get involved, and that's what makes our work possible.
Sophie Therber [00:37:47] That's so interesting to me that, I mean, you had to stop the monthly celebrations because of COVID, but then people still were able to come together as a community and raise that $60,000 so quickly. That's so amazing to me. What are other ways that you feel like you've seen the community kind of coming together and that kind of way?
Lariza Garzón [00:38:12] I mean, we are a small organization, and we do [a] crazy amount of work. Everything that we do requires community participation. And I think that's the beauty of it, whether it is people from the community itself that come to volunteer, like right now, every Friday, there's women from the community that go to sort clothes and food and hygiene items and work, basically. They volunteer to make sure that we can do our work. Or funders or church people. It's just constant. We just had an event -- [laughs] this is really cute, too. So, one of the events that we used to do before, like in 2019, right? Every month we would have this celebration and we would have one for back-to-school. That would always happen in July. We would do a back-to-school party and we would have piñatas the for the kids and contests and everything, and then they would go in the building and they would get a backpack with school supplies. And we would give supplies to like, 250 kids. And it was a great, it was a great day. Right. Well, during the pandemic that list was 450, and we did not think we were going to do it last year. It was just like, how are we going to get 450 backpacks? We absolutely got them. All these churches got together. They put together the backpacks, we distributed them via, like, drive-through, and it was great. This year, the demand was even higher because what happened during the pandemic also is that more people got to connect through us, to us, you know. And so, the demand was higher and we were able to collect supplies for 1000 kids. So last Saturday, we distributed the first 500. We're doing the second 500 on August 14th. And we did, we knew that we couldn't do like in-person, especially with Delta. Like, you know, having a bunch of kids around was a terrible idea. But we got really creative, and we dressed up like, you know, TV characters and set up different stations. I think it was, like, 16 stations where people would stop in their car and they would get information about different programs and supplies and backpacks and lemonade. And so the cool thing is that, you know, we had, like, 40 volunteers for this event just last Saturday.
Sophie Therber [00:40:57] Wow.
Lariza Garzón [00:40:57] The pandemic doesn't stop people from doing the right thing. It's always a community effort and it always works, only because community members are involved. And that's what's really inspiring about this work. There's a lot of heartbreaking stuff, but the humanity that you see, the resilience, the solidarity that you see is what really, you know, stays with you.
Sophie Therber [00:41:29] That is so heartwarming, especially the part [both laugh] where you said that you decided to dress up as different characters, that's so -- that's such a good idea. And that's really amazing that you were able to think of that response on the fly after having to adapt so much. I mean, just not being able to do anything in-person. That alone is a huge challenge. And that just in conjunction with all of the other challenges that you and your organization and the community as a whole have faced, that's really amazing.
Lariza Garzón [00:41:59] Yeah, we had a great time.
Sophie Therber [00:42:03] So, you said that when COVID first -- the pandemic first was happening, and your office closed on March 15th, the thinking was: this is going to be just like the hurricanes. Can you tell me some of the ways that your organization's response to the hurricanes has been similar to your organization's response to COVID?
Lariza Garzón [00:42:25] We used the same model. We used the same exact model. We had community members doing door-to-door education. We've done that for hurricanes. We've done that for COVID. When it was the hurricanes, they were teaching people how to have an emergency kit and how to get alerts and information. Now, it was like how to use your mask. You know, what to do if your employee doesn't pay your quarantine. Where to look for help and where to get vaccinated. What questions do you have? [laughs] You know, like, do you need food? It's been exactly the same model. One hundred percent. Rely on community members that know what's going on. Most of the people right now that -- you know, for the first program in 2019, it was folks that had been directly affected by the hurricanes. Our group of promoters right now are people that had COVID and work in agriculture, or like are immigrant...like, [...] how do you say...like, essential workers. Because that's the thing, they can tell us what's going on. It has to be that way because otherwise, we sit in an office and we decide what people need. That never works. You need to know from the people what they need. And so, a good example. When we were working on hurricanes, the Red Cross would drop like hundreds of buckets of cleaning supplies in our office. And we were all like, "We don't need this." You know, we don't need this. Like, what people need is X, Y, Z. How do we know? Because we are working with ten community leaders who are going to their neighbors' homes, who are going here and there, and they're finding out for us, and they're gathering data, and we respond to the needs. We don't come up with solutions without knowing. And it's the same thing here. We were able to establish really quickly, like what are the things that people are scared of for the vaccine? Who are the bad employers that are not providing masks? Who do we need to talk to, to put pressure on those employers like? You know...a lot of the work that we're doing is exactly the same model because also with that information, we can do advocacy better, and we do advocacy with the community leaders so they can speak exactly about what's going on in a way that we would never be able to do, that. We are providing direct services. We are providing community education. We are providing leadership development to the community leaders. And then, the advocacy piece is also really important because we've met with the governor's office, we've met with DHHS [Department of Health and Human Services], we've met with the Department of Agriculture, et cetera, et cetera. People in the community are having access to these government representatives to really speak about what's going on in ways that nobody else could and I don't think that Episcopal Farmworker Ministry is going to solve the issue of the pandemic any time soon [laughs], but I think what we're doing is that we're building leadership in these communities so that when there's another pandemic, they're going to be in a better place to face the challenges. And we are encouraging people to get vaccinated, just like we were encouraging people to put together an emergency kit with the hope that. We don't get to decide for people, we don't pressure them, we give them accurate information because this community doesn't usually have access to accurate information in their language. They can understand, and we trust that they will make the best decision for themselves and for their families. And that's what we're seeing.
Sophie Therber [00:46:25] That example about the Red Cross dropping off so many materials that weren't even needed by organization is really powerful. Are there other instances where or other organizations or even government actors or other actors like that have tried to provide for your organization and the farmworker community, but just been a little bit out of touch with what's actually needed?
Lariza Garzón [00:46:51] I kind of feel bad about using the Red Cross as an example, because they do so much for the community, especially in times of need, but I think there is always that disconnect, right? Like, I remember another thing that happened with a pandemic in the beginning was that someone in the government, I can't even remember what agency, they decided that in order to protect guest workers who were coming here from Mexico, that they would only allow one person in each camp to go shopping, and that they would provide these letters that people could show the cashier that were saying they were shopping for the whole camp, right? Now, imagine the mental health impact that these would have on workers, maybe if you're sitting in an office, you're thinking, this is great. That's the best solution. Give me just a second.
Sophie Therber [00:47:51] Oh, yeah, for sure. [pause]
Lariza Garzón [00:47:56] So you might think like, "Oh, yeah, we're protecting workers, we're doing great." Well, these workers, imagine, work and live with the same people. Every single day of their lives, they don't have any privacy. They're literally working all day long with the same people that they live with. And the only day and the only experience that they have where they get to see other folks is when they go shopping. And not only that, but they don't have control over so many things in their life, they don't control their schedule, they don't control their movements because they don't have transportation, they don't control so many things about their lives. And now they won't even be able to control the food that they buy. They have to tell somebody else to buy them something. But it might not be the brand or the variety or the kind of things that they like. It was, it was just heartbreaking to hear government officials talk about protecting workers, in a way that felt like it was very paternalistic to me, because you wouldn't do that, you wouldn't say like, "Okay, now all the doctors, we need to all very healthy, so we're not going to let you go shopping." So there's stuff like that that always comes up that is just very well-intentioned, but at the end of the day does more harm than good, right? I think that happens because folks don't take the time to really get to know the community or because historically those relationships don't exist. Like, the pandemic kind of highlighted that. It's not that government officials are bad, it's just that this community has been so marginalized and they're never taken into account. And so now we needed these essential workers, and nobody really knew anything about them because nobody has ever put a place on the table for them, you know?
Sophie Therber [00:49:59] Right, and I think that that story illustrates a really significant part of dealing with the disasters, which is the lack of control that people feel that they have over their everyday lives and their choices. And then that just kind of being increased by, as you said, the government response kind of eroding the few areas where they do have control. So that's really interesting.
Lariza Garzón [00:50:23] Yeah, there's a lot of of that that takes place, you know. But I think that's why there's agencies like us like we can say, "Hold on a moment, [laughs] these are the reasons why this won't be a good idea." And whether or not they listen to us, that's a whole nother thing.
Sophie Therber [00:50:46] Do you feel that when you say that things like that aren't a good idea, has that been received well? Do people listen?
Lariza Garzón [00:50:54] Some people do, and some people don't.
Sophie Therber [00:50:59] Right. Is there any way, I mean, just in general, how do you feel that the governmental agencies or other kind of larger organizations have received feedback from organizations like Episcopal Farmworker Ministry?
Lariza Garzón [00:51:21] I think that at least in North Carolina, the interest of businesses has been the priority over the safety of essential workers, and I think I say that knowing that there have been incredible efforts on the part of some of the agencies to get folks vaccinated and to provide support, but I think that more could be done if we held employers responsible for some of the working conditions that could affect the health of workers. And I think that the government is not willing to do that.
Sophie Therber [00:52:05] Well, thank you so much for that response. I think that's really interesting and that's really helpful and especially what you were saying about just North Carolina kind of placing the interests of businesses over the safety of essential workers. Is there anything that you would like to add for this interview before I stop the recording?
Lariza Garzón [00:52:22] That's all. Thank you so much.
Sophie Therber [00:52:23] Okay, awesome. I'm going to go ahead and stop the recording in just a moment.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-1001 -- Garzón, Lariza.
Description
An account of the resource
This oral history interview was conducted by Sophie Therber with interviewee Lariza Garzón via Zoom on August 3, 202. The main focus is Lariza’s involvement with the Episcopal Farmworker Ministry helping farmworkers mitigate the COVID pandemic, extreme weather, and other challenges such as mental health and the collective trauma that farmworkers and immigrants face. Lariza describes working to help farmworker communities recover from hurricanes and facilitate processes of healing within these communities. Lariza draws connections between the trauma of immigration to North Carolina and the trauma associated with disasters such as hurricanes and COVID, discussing the importance of allowing community members to share this trauma and have conversations about what is needed to promote collective healing. She emphasizes the humanity of farmworker communities and the magnitude of the community response to COVID.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2021-08-03
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
R1001_Audio.mp3
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29187">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/277bbaf9f0c5204217ba5f906929f0a5.mp3
6d97a0a2ffc55919114ed4c59c3d1128
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/6a6b0fb3276c7a63d24d55687fe07fb1.pdf
163f7556b69f6bafb89ad4fdced7e36b
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-1000
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
Fecha
2022-02-10
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Valdez Place, Soraya.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Educators
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1976
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
San Salvador -- San Salvador -- El Salvador
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Hickory -- Catawba County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-89.21692657470703 13.701777458190918),1976,1;POINT(-78.64305877685547 35.77839279174805),2005,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Carlton, Marisa.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Spanish
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Soraya Valdez Place is a Spanish Professor at Lenoir Rhyne University and the Community Outreach Specialist for the Catawba County Library system in Hickory, North Carolina. She is originally from San Salvador, El Salvador and first moved to the United States in 2004. Soraya tells the story of her life and explains what growing up was like for her in El Salvador. She reflects on the struggles she and her family faced and touches on the violence, natural disasters, and the rampant civil war that plagued her country. She shares the story of moving to the United States for the first time and the challenges of learning English and eventually, how she came to live in North Carolina. She also shares her experience of her time in the Peace Corp and serving abroad with her husband. Soraya speaks on the differences between life in North Carolina, specifically Catawba County, and life back in her home of El Salvador. Lastly, she touches on her work in Catawba County as a Spanish professor and a Community Outreach Specialist, serving as a bridge for the Spanish-speaking community. Soraya closes the interview by telling me about the different issues the Latinx community faces in Catawba County and her work to address these issues by creating workshops and classes through the local library system.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Soraya Valdez Place by Marisa Carlton, 10 February 2022, R-1000, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29184
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Citizenship and immigration; Community and social services and programs; Language and communication; Receiving communities; War and violence
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Marisa Carlton: Ok. Hola. Me llamo Marisa Carlton. Hoy es el 10 de febrero 2022. Estoy aquí con Soraya Place. Estamos aquí en su oficina en Lenoir Rhyne University. Ella me va contar un poquito sobre su vida y sus experiencias. Muchas gracias Soraya por estar aquí dispuesta de hacer esta entrevista. Ok. Vamos a comenzar.
Soraya Valdez Place: Ok.
MC: ¿Podemos empezar en – me puede contar un poco de su – el país de donde es usted?
SVP: Mhm.
MC: ¿Y como era el lugar? ¿Como creció? ¿De donde es? ¿Donde nació?
Soraya Valdez Place: Mhm. Ok. Yo soy de San Salvador en El Salvador. Y El Salvador es el país mas chiquitito de todo Centroamérica. Le llaman el pulgarcito de América. También le llaman el valle de las hamacas porque esta todo el tiempo temblando, entonces el país se mueve constantemente. Nací en la capital, pero vivíamos en una cuidad que se llama Soyapango que antes cuando yo estaba creciendo en la cuidad era súper segura. Todos podíamos salir a jugar y eran las nueve o diez de la noche y andábamos en la calle corriendo hasta que los papas nos decían: ¡Ya! ¡Hora de dormir! Pero andábamos en grupos con amigas y muchachos y amigos. Pero, después poco a poco se fue poniendo la cuidad un poco mas peligrosa hasta que Soyapango se convirtió en uno do los barrios mas peligrosos de San Salvador. Y cuando ya no podíamos salir. Las casas pasaban con llave. Y eso fue cuando ya era mas grande. Había que echar llave, todo cerrado. Ventanas cerradas para que nadie pudiera ver que haya adentro. Y los ladrones se metieron muchas veces a mi casa. Entonces, de chiquita tengo excelentes memorias porque la pasamos súper bien. Pero, do ahí aquí íbamos creciendo y la delincuencia iba aumentando y la pasamos mal. Varias veces los ladrones se metieron a mi casa cuando no había nadie. Se robaron todo. Había una vez en que llegaron los ladrones y nos apuntaron con pistolas y metieron toda a la familia en el baño chiquitito. Y se llevaron el carro y en el carro echaron las carteras, las televisiones, cámaras, teléfonos, joyas, dinero, todo lo que pudieron. Y se lo llevaron. Nos dejaron encerados ahí y después salimos y se habían llevado todo. Era la hora de almuerzo. No pudimos ni almorzar porque pensábamos que le habían echado veneno a la comida. Ósea, botamos toda la comida. Nos quedamos sin cinco centavos. Sin carro para salir. Entonces tuvimos que buscar ayuda de amigos. Y bueno así era mi cuidad, pero también nosotros estábamos muy conectados con el campo porque mi abuelita viene de un cantón que se llama Molineros y es en San Vicente en otro departamento. Y viajábamos a Molineros constantemente. Cada fin de semana viaje familiar. Era en que, vamos todos o nadie. Entonces, yo vengo de cinco hermanos. Soy la del medio. Tengo dos hermanos mayores, una hermana menor, un hermano menor y yo estoy en medio. Entonces, todos los domingos, en la mañana para el campo y regresamos a noche y hay, creo que son una de las memorias mas divertidas porque siempre había algo. Una experiencia diferente. Sea algo de carro, o no quedábamos sin gasolina o que vamos almorzar y llegar este pueblito estar con los primos, subiéndonos en los palos, comiendo fruta sin lavarnos las manos. Era, pues era una infancia buenísima.
MC: Si.
SVP: La pasamos súper bien.
MC: ¿Tu cuidad—me puede decir otra vez como se llama?
SVP: Soyapango.
MC: Soyapango.
SVP: Aja.
MC: ¿Y esa cuidad era mas, era cuidad grande? ¿Pequeño?
SVP: Si.
MC: O, era cerca de–¿
SVP: -- de San Salvador. Mhm. So, allá en El Salvador nadie tiene carro. Si tenemos carro pero un carro familiar. No es que cada quien tiene su carro entonces en carro podríamos llegar al centro, a la capital en que, veinte minutos.
MC: Ok.
SVP: Treinta minutos. Pero en bus iba tardar 45 minutos, una hora. Mas la trabazón que decimos, o el trafico. ¿Una hora y media depende no? Pero muy cerca la capital.
MC: Ok.
SVP: Mhm.
MC: Y, cuando usted estaba contando de la delincuencia que eso-- ¿cuándo paso eso? ¿Cuantos anos tenias que tu notaste un cambio? ¿Como que año o cuantos años tenias cuando tu notaste eso?
SVP: Yo pienso que cuando ya tenia como 14, 15 años. Maybe. O tal vez desde los 17. Hasta que me fui de esa colonia. De ese lugar hasta, desde los 17 hasta los 28 años. Fueron todos eso años desde que vivíamos con miedo. Todo el tiempo. Porque, las maras crecieron. Las pandillas o las maras empezaron a crecer. Había mucha delincuencia. Vivíamos mas con temor después de mis 15 a 17 años hasta que me fui a los 28 años.
MC: Claro. ¿Y eso como era para ti? ¿Si me puedes contar, ibas a la escuela? Me imagino, ¿verdad?
SVP: Mhm. Mhm. Si.
MC: ¿Cómo fue eso que vivían en temor y tenias que ir a la escuela? Me imagino que caminabas o llevaste el bus. ¿Tenias que tener cuidado? ¿Como era eso?
SVP: Entonces, teníamos suerte que todos estudiamos casi en el mismo lugar. Mis hermanos, los cuatro, teníamos suerte de ir a un colegio privado donde no estábamos muy expuestas a la delincuencia. Mi mama tenia un carro entonces ella nos podía llevar en la mañana y recoger en la noche. Entonces, no estábamos tan expuestos como otras amigas que tenían que tomar el bus todos los días. Cuando ya me gradué de del bachillerato en la escuela secundaria, cuando yo me gradué, ya teníamos que—tenia yo que tomar el bus porque ya no íbamos al colegio entonces eran horarios diferentes para toda la familia. Y ahí es donde empezamos a explorar y ver mas cosas de peligro, ¿no? Mas gente que se subían a asaltar en los buses. Es interesante porque uno se acomodo de manera en que uno si llevaba unos aritos o un reloj toda en la bolsa. A llegar en mis clases te lo ponías y ya salías a la clase todo. Saliendo de las clases para tomar el bus uno se vuelve a quitar todo y lo esconde y lo guarda. Los celulares nunca en la mano. Jamás. Bien escondido en silencio porque por ejemplo tenias un celular y sonaba un beep, y había un ladrón iba y te decía: ¡Dame el teléfono ya! Y ahí perdías todo. También uno se acomoda a no tener nada de, ósea nada de lujos. Nada de una carta bonita o eso no. Uno siempre tiene que llevar lo mas – teníamos que llevar lo menos ya que llamara la atención para que no nos asaltaran, por ejemplo. Entonces, si cuando empezamos a tomar el bus fuimos expuestas mas con mis hermanas, pero ahí es donde empezamos a ver que si había mas delincuencia y por supuesto que estaba creciendo mas.
MC: Claro.
SVP: Mhm.
MC: Y no se, tus papas, no se si creciste con los dos en casa en familia. ¿Ellos trabajaron verdad? Ellos trabajaban, ¿no? Yo e escuchado historias que la gente que trabaja luego los como-- ellos tienen-- se enfocan en la gente y los extorsionan. La gente que tiene negocio o trabajan. No se. ¿Ustedes tuvieron experiencia con eso? ¿Experimentaron eso?
SVP: Personalmente no porque cuando yo salí del El Salvador en el 2004, empezaban ese tipo de extorciones a todo mundo. Entonces, no. Gracias a dios no fui expuesta a ese tipo de cosas. Pero, mi mama tenia un negocio y mi papa se murió cuando yo tenia nueve años entonces no. No recuerdo. No tengo muchos recuerdos de el trabajando. Pero, en ese tiempo cuando tenia nueve años estábamos bien. No había tanto peligro.
MC: Claro.
SVP: Pero mi mama recuerdo que en su negocio si, algunas veces se metieron los ladrones y a robar con punta de pistola en la cabeza. Denos todo el dinero y por supuesto que, si tus hijos están ahí, ella iba entregar totalmente todo. Pero, mi hermana. Mi hermana tenia una casa que alquilaba como una clínica y si la extorsionaron. La trataron de extorsionar y mi hermana es súper valiente y mi hermana hablo con los maderos. Y les dijo, ay, yo les ayudo cuando ustedes no tienen dinero yo les doy crédito. Cuando ustedes están enfermos, yo voy a sus casas y les pongo unas inyecciones. Yo cuido su familia porque me quieren extorsionar. Creo que les estaban pidiendo 50 dólares semanales lo cual la gente no gana eso para pagar una extorción así. Entonces, ella fue y hablo con ellos hagamos un trato y los sigo ayudándoles, pero ustedes no me cobren mas. Y la perdonaron. Pero yo oí de muchos que, si no les pagaron, los mataron.
MC: Hm. Si. Y un poquito mas sobre eso. Tu crees que ahorita en El Salvador, tu país, tu opinión. Piensas que es peor ahorita o como ves, que es tu opinión?
SVP: Yo deje de viajar del El Salvador por diez años. Yo no fui porque yo tenia miedo. De verdad. Tenia miedo y no, no quería encontraerme con una situación así. Ahora, también la gente te nota que uno ya no vive allá. Te nota la ropa, como habla, como uno se peina, ¿no? Entonces yo tenia miedo regresar. Pero mi amiga se caso, mi mejor amiga que era como mi hermana. Se caso hace dos años, entonces yo fui por primera vez después de diez años. Y, creo que se a calmado. Creo que tal vez porque no me subí un bus. Siempre estaba con una amiga en un taxi o en carro privado. Nunca en transporte publico. Vi que es menos. Vi que antes habían los maderos estaban caminando en la calle. Tatuados en toda la cara. Ósea te daba un temor horrible. Pero, hoy yo no los vi así. También la ciudad, pero ejemplo el centro de San Salvador, antes uno ni podría caminar ni con un teléfono en la mano. Hoy si. Es turístico. Parece una cuidad europea. Done uno puede caminar por las calles hasta la media noche en el propio centro. Yo nunca había visto eso así nunca en mi vida antes. Eso es súper bonito volver a regresar que esta mas seguro en ese sentido. Puede ser todas esas cosas. Pero, sin embargo, lo que yo y no se. No lo vi. Pero lo que yo e visto es que lo, no es tanto los maderos, pero es mas el crimen organizado. Entonces, ahora este crimen organizado, la gente se viste bien. Ya no se visten como los de antes, no que eran ladrones tradicionales. Si no gente que anda en su propio carro haciendo sus negocios, ¿no? Eso si no lo vi no lo se, pero eso me contaron, pero si. No vi ese tipo de madero tradicional que nos asustaban en las calles, por ejemplo, no vi eso.
MC: Claro. ¿Y cuando fue esos diez años, cuando dejo de ir? ¿Que año fue?
SVP: Yo deje di ir desde el 2000. 2008 al 2018. 2020. Por ahí. 2018.
MC: Ok. ¿Entonces desde el 2018, es cuando regreso apenas?
SVP: Aja. Aja.
MC: ¿Y cuanto tiempo se quedo allá?
SVP: Me quede por diez—doce días.
MC: Oh. Ok.
SVP: Y después regrese este año otra vez. Bueno el año pasado entonces ahora no quiero--. Quiero ir cada dos años. Porque, es tan lindo El Salvador. El Salvador es hermoso. Las playas. Es que, todo. Me encanta. Entonces, ahora no voy a dejar tanto tiempo.
MC: Si.
SVP: Solamente tener cuidado cuando uno viaja y si voy a ir mas.
MC: Si. Claro. Pues me da gusto que puedas volver ahora.
SVP: Si.
MC: Que no es tan peligroso que antes.
SVP: Si.
MC: --Pero. ¿Todavía tienes familia allá?
SVP: Oh. Primos. Tíos. Mis amigas están allá. Pero mi familia inmediata todos están en Estados Unidos ahora.
MC: Todos. Ok. Y, bueno, hablando un poquito sobre eso. ¿Cuándo se mudaron ellos? ¿Se mudaron contigo o después?
SVP: Después. Después. Yo vine en 2004. Y creo que mi hermano se vino el siguiente en 2005. Mi hermana en el siguiente en el 2006. Tres o cuatro años despues mi otra hermana y después mi mama. Y, mi única hermana que no pudo a Estados Unidos se fue a Italia.
MC: Oh.
SVP: Ella vive en Italia ahora porque no, no a podido viajar. No a podido venirse a Estados Unidos. Ahora ella puede visitar porque nos viene a visitar desde Italia, pero no vive en Estados Unidos.
MC: Claro. Ok. Otra pregunta que tenia, mas sobre su infancia o creciendo en su tiempo en El Salvador. Quería preguntarle sobre el clima. Los problemas, le decimos climate change.
SVP: Aja. Aja.
MC: Del ambiente.
SVP: Aja.
MC: ¿Usted-- que tipo de problemas experimento allá? ¿Que fue su experiencia con huracanes o temblores?
SVP: Terremotos. Mhm. La otra cosa es que por si ubicación geográfica El Salvador esta exactamente situado en unas placas tectónicas. Entonces, El Salvador, como te dije, es el valle de las hamacas. Tiembla constantemente. Pero, cada diez años es un estimado, ¿no? Cada diez o doce años hay un terremoto grande que afecta la gente y mi primera experiencia con un terremoto grande fue en el 86 que recuerdo que yo no sabia como era eso hasta que lo pasamos y me dijeron eso fue un terremoto. Y recuerdo que el primer terremoto yo estaba en quinto grado. Y estamos en las clases y de repente temblaba y todo mundo gritaba. No entendíamos. Yo no entendía que estaba pasando porque, si sabíamos que es un temblor, pero no un terremoto. Pero podríamos ver todo el edificio doblado a la derecha a la izquierda. El cielo falso de las casas, de la escuela se cayo. Paredes rajadas. Y, pánico. Todo mundo corriendo. Otros llorando. Todos nos abrazamos. Y desde entonces me recuerdo que empezamos hacer como capacitaciones, ¿no? Que hacer en caso de terremoto. Meterse abajo del pupite. Nadie hace eso. Todo el mundo sale corriendo [riza].
MC: [riza]
SVP: Pero no, eso fue mi primera experiencia y recuerdo que mi mama nos llevo a recoger al colegio. Todas estábamos llorando. Nos fuimos a la casa. No había luz por días. Hubo un colegio católico de niñas que se desplomo totalmente. Hubieron cientos y cientos de muertos. Un edificio principal en el centro de San Salvador, la capital, centro de San Salvador se colapso también. Y había un restaurante donde íbamos de chiquitas que vendían unos-- decíamos unos frescos de ensalada que es un refresco de fruta picada que todo el mundo le gustaba sentarse como un bar. Y todos sentamos ahí pedir una ensalada grande. Ese se desplomo también. Ósea muertos y muertos. Y recuerdo que habían gente de México, Estados Unidos, que llegaron ayudar a encontrar todos eso muertos. Con el tiempo cuando la luz regreso podíamos ver las noticias y darnos cuenta que era mas grave que lo que pensábamos. Y bueno la vida continua, ¿no? Entonces, eso fue en octubre.
MC: Fue en mil novecientos….
SVP: 86.
MC: 86.
SVP: Mhm. Y recuerdo que la escuela termino, todo el colegio el sistema educativo termino 3 semanas antes de lo normal. Todo mundo paso de grado. [riza]
MC: Si, verdad. [riza]
SVP: [riza] Porque nadie hizo los exámenes finales.
MC: [riza] Claro. No.
SVP: Bueno, la vida continua. En enero todos comenzamos las clases y todo. Eso fue mi primer experiencia. La ultima experiencia que yo recuerdo fue en el 2001. Es interesante porque esta, este fue otro terremoto que experimente. Hubo uno en febrero, enero y uno en febrero. Con un mes de diferencia. Y este nos toco cerca mi familia porque en enero hubo el—ese terremoto fue fuertísimo y recuerdo que todo mundo empieza a llamar, ¿no? Las líneas están saturadas porque todo el mundo esta llamando todo mundo.
MC: Están chequeando en la familia.
SVP: Si. Como esta fulano, ósea, todo mundo. Y recuerdo que fue fuerte en este cantón que se llamaba Molineros de donde es mi abuelita. Y recuerdo que las paredes estaban quebradas. Rajadas. Algunas de lado listas para caerse. Las casas, todas las casas se dañaron en esta comunidad. Y bueno, otra vez la vida continua. Seguimos trabajando. En febrero exactamente el mes, hay otro segundo terremoto. Enorme. Fuerte. No recuerdo que escala fue, pero tiene que ver sido mas de siete punto algo porque de ahí para arriba todo es tragedia. Y recuerdo que las casas que habían quedado dañadas se desplomaron. Y empezaron a llamar la familia que habían perdido todo. La comunidad de mi abuelita salió afectada. Perdimos unos de nuestros mejores amigos de la familia. Que la noche anterior habíamos estado en el Cantón y yo le había dicho vámonos a la casa porque abecés el se iba a vivir con nosotros por una semana.
MC: ¿En tu, en tu cuidad?
SVP: En la comunidad de mi abuelita y el venia a mi cuidad y se quedaba con nosotros. Y el no quiso venir. El dijo no, no me siento bien. Y yo: that’s why. Por eso debes de irte. Así te podemos dar medicina y tratamiento y el no quiso, pero murió el siguiente día. Hubieron varios muertos en la comunidad porque le cayeron las paredes en sima a la gente. Y recuerdo que mi mama, mi mama era la salvadora siempre. Mi mama cualquier problema que había en el cantón le llamaban. Mi mama sabia como solucionar. Y me acuerdo que mi mami dice vamos, tenemos que ir. La gente tiene hambre. No hay agua. En este entonces, no había agua potable. Gente sacaba agua de los posos. Pero los posos se secaron porque hubieron derrumbes. No había agua. No había comida. No había nada. Entonces me recuerdo que fuimos a comprar plátanos, pan, arroz, frijoles y llevábamos. Y era un--era tenebroso. Íbamos y veíamos todas las casas tiradas hasta-- porque esta comunidad como una hora y media. Y nos dio miedo. De verdad. Todas las calles había grietas. Habían hoyos. Hubo una maestra que la tierra se abrió y la tierra se la trago. Pero, como la tierra se habría y se cerraba ella no se fue totalmente todo su cuerpo, pero se quedo hasta la cintura.
MC: Si.
SVP: La tierra la apretaba y la abría y la apretaba y le quebró las piernas. Eso fue en la comunidad de mi abuelita. Y cuando llegamos allá yo me acuerdo que toda mi familia estaban bañados en tierra. Les callo como un balde de tierra. Las pestañas blancas. El pelo blanco porque las casas se cayeron y toda esa tierra les cayo encima. Mi prima, por ejemplo, ella trato de agarrarse de algo y si agarro de un alambre de púa y tenia todas las manos rascadas, los pies raspados porque cuando corrieron se cayeron y se raspaban. Los muertos estaban en el, en la plaza central por decir algo en el parque central y era tenebroso. Era horrible. Mientras tanto, seguía temblando y seguía temblando y las casa ya no- las casas que se quedaron paradas todavía teníamos miedo qué fueran a colapsar. No se si dormimos o no dormimos esa noche. Fue—nos dio miedo de verdad. Pero mi mama tenia que llevar comida para todos y fuimos y todos, ósea, yo creo que yo tenia como unos 22 o 23 años.
MC: Si.
SVP: Mhm. Ya estábamos mayores, pero todavía era algo que no podíamos controlar. Un desastre natural fuerte. Eso fue el ultimo y fue triste. Fue muy triste. De ahí, cosas buenas vienen porque hay mucha ayuda de otros países. Y la gente, mucha gente le construyeron las casas. Llego el agua potable. Ahora la gente ya no tiene que usar mucho los posos. Ya corre el agua y cosas así. Pero, fue triste. Fue muy duro. Eso por terremotos. ¿No se si quieres que cuente de huracanes? [riza]
MC: Si. Claro. Si también. Si, yo se que, pues El Salvador es, ahí esta en el medio de Centroamérica donde esta el mar. Entonces, si. ¿Que fue su experiencia con huracanes?
SVP: El huracán que yo viví de cerca fue el huracán Mitch y uh—
MC: ¿Que año fue eso?
SVP: En el, quiero decir en el 98.
MC: Ok.
SVP: Pero no estoy segura tenemos que buscar eso. Porque no estoy segura si fue en el 98. Pero, si, empezó a llover un día, dos días. Y otra vez como, ósea uno-- nunca habíamos pasado por un huracán. Entendemos exactamente pero el huracán también puede pasar de categoría uno, dos y sube y uno nunca sabe hasta donde va pasar, ¿no?
MC: Y en ese tiempo, ¿eso fue el, como el primer huracán que tu tuviste esa experiencia?
SVP: El único que e visto daño grande grave o daños exagerados—
MC: --Claro. Si.
SVP: -- O daños que, si mato gente, conocidos o en el que yo tome acción, ¿no? Ya esta en el 98 pues yo era parte de la asociación scouts de El Salvador con mis amigas allá y mi mejor amiga que es otra como mi hermana. Y me acuerdo que ella me dice, tenemos que ir. Tenemos que colaborar. Tenemos que irnos ahí para ayudar. A la asociación y a le gente, ¿no? Los scouts se iban como la cruz roja a ayudar. Había-- porque mucha gente vivía a la orilla de los ríos. Entonces es peligrosísimo ir a evacuar la gente, llevar comida, ropa, porque todo el mundo pierde todo. Entonces, me acuerdo que, nos fuimos a la asociación scouts a ayudar. Ellas mas que yo porque yo en un momento que ya nadie podía salir de las casas. Y mis amigas llegaron antes para ayudar. Yo ya no pude llegar porque nadie podía manejar ni salir a ningún lado. Era tan peligroso. Los vientos botaron arboles, los palos, los postes de eléctrico. Entonces, no había luz y bueno, accidentes por todos lados. Desborde de ríos que es lo peor yo pienso que puede haber. Bueno, entonces yo no ayude mucho, pero mis amigas si. Y otra vez, es como volver a reconstruir el país. Imagínate en el 98 tenemos este huracán que mata tanta gente, que trae tanta destrucción. Mas pobreza. Ya no hay empleos porque toda esta gente que perdió sus negocios no pueden volver a empezar y contratar otra gente. Entonces mucha gente sin—mucha gente con desempleo. En el 98 y en el 2001 los terremotos y El Salvador, el país a sido golpeado por todos lados.
MC: Claro.
SVP: Y la guerra civil antes de eso. Y las maras. Entonces, la gente es súper resilente. Y yo abecés no me explico como somos normales. [riza] Después de pasar tantas cosas terribles.
MC: Si.
SVP: Es muchas tragedias, pero también la gente a mi me--la gente salvadoreña y no es porque sea salvadoreña pero los salvadoreños siempre tienen una actitud positiva. Siempre trabajan mas de lo que tienen que trabajar. Dan mas. Comprarte hasta lo que no tienen. Y mucha gente se queda sin comer lo que, su comida por darle al otro, aunque el otro tenga mas. No importa. Hay que compartir. Es increíble. Y así son los salvadoreños.
MC: Si.
SVP: Entonces, esos dos, esos dos desastres naturales han afectado a El Salvador bastante.
MC: Claro. Me imagino. ¿Y el gobierno de El Salvador que, como ayudaron? ¿No se si ayudaron o no en tu opinión? ¿Como ayudaron ellos durante esos problemas de naturaleza?
SVP: Lo que pasa es que es difícil saber. Generalmente lo que yo viví es que siempre hay un montón de corrupción. Lo que yo vi y lo vi a nivel personal en la comunidad de mi abuelita, por ejemplo. Es que hay mucha ayuda extranjera. Sin limites. Ósea, yo recuerdo que llegaban camiones y camiones para regalar comida, para regalar ropa, para regalar medicina. Pero hay corrupción al nivel del gobierno y al nivel de sub gobierno y comunitario. Yo me acuerdo que los lideres comunitarios en esta comunidad es como, estos zapatos para mi nieto. Esta, esta comida, reste arroz que se veía mas fino que esta, que es mas caro para mi familia. Llegaba una pipa de agua. Es como un camión grande no, que lleva el agua. La pipa de agua y muchas veces los lideres no querían avisar la comunidad para cuando la pipa llega, sus familiares son los primeros. No había mucha igualdad. Ahí era el que era el mas fuerte. El mas vivo. El que tenia mas poder. Y lo mismo paso en el nivel gubernamental. Los que se benefician mas son los que tienen mas poder. Entonces, el gobierno si ayudo en el sentido de que tienen buenas relaciones internacionales con otros países. Que los otros países llevan cosas, a donar y regalar. Porque a nivel mundial, todo mundo estaba recaudado comida, ropa, víveres, lo que sea para mandar a El Salvador. Y se recibió una ayuda increíble. Ahora, si la gente la recibió o no la recibió no, no se. La comunidad de mi abuelita era de fácil acceso. Muy accesible. Y yo vi que llego ayuda. Pero hay otras comunidades que eran muy, muy, mas difícil de acezar que tal ves no recibieron nada.
MC: Claro.
SVP: Pero también hay unas comunidades que recibieron casas construidas totalmente, por ejemplo. Pero también con ayuda extranjera. No necesariamente del gobierno salvadoreño.
MC: Claro. Si. ¿Y en ese tiempo de los huracanes y los terremotos, tuvieron otras experiencias con lo de la naturaleza o el clima?
AVP: ¿Que mas? A ver, estoy tratando de pensar. Yo recuerdo que antes en octubre en el salvador teníamos muchos los famosos vientos de octubre.
MC: Ok.
AVP: Y era un viento-- era tan interesante porque todo mundo en octubre se ponía los suéteres mas gruesos. Todos los labios reventados. Tenían que ponerse manteca de cacao que uno compra por 25 cinco centavos, un pedacito. Y después con el tiempo esos vientos ya no, no los recuerdo en mi vida mas. En mis años 20, 24. No habían esos vientos. Pero antes, cuando estaba pequeña, si. Era un frio enorme. Era fuerte. Pero eso si cambio. Eso si cambio mucho. Y ahora como no estoy allá en octubre, no se si están los vientos o no. Pero si recuerdo que siempre El Salvador también a tenido problemas de sequia en donde solamente llueve de mayo hasta noviembre, abecés octubre. Ya no llueve en noviembre. Abecés una o dos llovidas en noviembre y ya no mas. Y eso siempre a sido bien particular. Era clarito. Primera lluvia de mayo y termine en octubre o noviembre. Y eso no se como a cambiado porque ya son muchos años que estoy aquí. No tengo tanto tiempo allá para ver si eso esta ahí o no o a cambiado.
MC: Si. Y yo me imagino que, en esos tiempos, eso la afecta mucho. Como El Salvador es un lugar donde hay mucha milpa. ¿Verdad? Y me imagino que eso afecto mucho a los trabajadores en la milpa.
SVP: Aja.
MC: Que están cosechando.
SVP: Claro. Si hay sequia no van a producir tanto maíz. La base principal es maíz y frijoles. Entonces, si hay una sequia, no llueve no hay frijoles, no hay maíz, que va comer la gente?
MC: Claro.
SVP: Si. Es critico.
MC: Claro. Y tu crees, o como piensas que tu crees, que eso ha cambiado en los últimos años en El Salvador. ¿Todavía están teniendo experiencia con terremotos y huracanes, como vez eso?
SVP: Bueno, afortunadamente, yo se que tiembla porque yo puedo ver en los medios sociales. ¡Todo el mundo temblor! Todos están bien. Pero no habido un terremoto grande como en el de 2001, por ejemplo. No a pasado algo tan fuerte por ahora. Sigue temblando lo cuales esta bien porque esa energía se necesita de sacar para que no haya un terremoto grande. Entonces, los temblores medianos y pequeños son necesarios, pero no habido uno tan grande, tampoco un huracán tan grande. Sin embargo, si ha habido inundaciones y tormentas o temporales. Pero no un huracán tan grande como ese.
MC: Claro. Y todo eso afecta las comunidades, especialmente las comunidades locales, pequeñas. Que es tu opinión. ¿Tu crees que es una razón que la gente se a mudado de El Salvador?
SVP: Claro. Si. Si. Yo recuerdo que después de los huracanes, mucha gente inmigro. Hay, ¿no puedo recordar cual fue el este, que fue el huracán Mitch, probablemente? Oh, había otra que mucha gente se vino a los Estados Unidos por eso. De echo, muchos les dieron el TPS. El temporal employment status. Les dieron TPS si ellos emigraron en los tiempos de estos desastres naturales, esta gente que se vino en ese tiempo fue incluida en este programa TPS con inmigración. Porque muchos emigraron debido a los desastres naturales y los terremotos también.
MC: Wow.
SVP: Eso beneficiaron del TPS por haber ido en ese tiempo de, como te digo. Si alguien perdió su negocio, de donde va empezar? El gobierno no le va dar nada. Y claro, la familia de los Estados Unidos ayuda. Pero, es casi imposible poder levantar un negocio teniendo uno o dos miembros que te ayudan solamente.
MC: Claro. Tu piensas que incluso a los Estados Unidos, la gente se mudo a otros países- SVP: --Si. Si.
MC: -- Como, no se, ¿Honduras, Guatemala o México?
SVP: Si. Si. Ok, so, Centroamérica no mucho porque todo Centroamérica esta como en misma posición [riza]. Y pasamos por Honduras y Guatemala y México para la gente que quiere llegar finalmente a Estados Unidos. Pero mucha gente se fue para Italia. Mucha gente se ha ido a España. No se que otros países, pero e conocido mucha gente que-- mi hermana por ejemplo esta en Italia.
MC: Si. Es interesante porque yo-- es algo nuevo para mi. Yo no sabia que le gente se fue a esos países.
SVP: Si.
MC: ¿Que es esa conexión? ¿Porque era tan popular que la gente se iba a Italia o España?
SVP: Yo creo que era la forma de entrar al país. No era tan estricta. No se necesita una visa. O si les dan visa, no estoy segura, pero si les dan visa, lo requisitos para obtener una visa son mucho mas fáciles y accesibles que una visa en Estados Unidos.
MC: Claro.
SVP: O económicamente es mas fácil irse a Italia. Tal vez el boleto, no se si el boleto sea mas barato, pero creo que le entrada a esos países es mucho mas fácil que Estados Unidos, por ejemplo.
MC: Claro. Si. Bueno. Y quiero hablar un poquito, Soraya, sobre-- hablamos un poquito sobre la guerra civil. Eso paso en 1979 a mil 1992.
SVP: Hasta los 90s. Mhm.
MC: ¿Tu viviste sobre, un parte de eso, me imagino?
SVP: Si. Si. Si.
MC: ¿Cuantos años tenias y que recuerdas de ese tiempo?
SVP: Lo que mas recuerdo fue el final. En los 90, 92. Ya tenia yo, ¿que 15 años? Tal vez. Recuerdo cuando estábamos bien chiquititas. Pero ejemplo, te conté que íbamos a la casa de mi abuelita y pasábamos entre la casa de mi mama y mi abuelita. En Molineros yo recuerdo muchas veces que era una guerra civil. Estaba el lado del ejercito militar y los guerrilleros. Y yo me acuerdo que en la comunidad de mi abuelita abecés llegaban los guerrilleros. Y todo el mundo salían corriendo a esconderse porque teníamos miedo. Primero porque la guerrilla llegaba y reclutaba a todos los jovencitos, hombres y mujeres. Te guste o no te gusta te vas a unir a la guerrilla. Y después llegaban los soldados a reclutar a los jóvenes. Solamente hombres, pero reclutaban. Entonces, la mayoría de los jóvenes lo que hacían era esconderse porque no querían ni unirse ni a un bando ni al otro. Cada quien quería estar con sus familias. Yo acuerdo que estábamos bien chiquititas y hubo una vez que si recuerdo muy bien. Llegaron los guerrillos y pusieren una bancarta en la, en la casa principal. En la avenida principal donde esta la casa de mi abuelita, solo pusieron en la casa de mi abuelita, y decía el FMLN no se, no recuerdo que decía. Pero yo recuerdo que estábamos con mi primo. Mi primo nos puso todos en el cuarto. Aquí vamos a estar. Todos tranquilitos y los guerrilleros fue-- pasaron al patio a tomar agua. Estábamos como escondidos, ¿no? Esperando que se vayan. Y eso era terrible porque los guerrilleros se iban y después llegaba el ejercito. ¿Que estaban haciendo aquí? Ustedes los apoyan. Ustedes les dan comida. Y realmente los guerrilleros obligaron a la gente comida también. Entonces era—no queríamos apoyar ni uno ni al otro. Pero nos encontrábamos en medio de los dos bandos por accidente, coincidencia. Y recuerdo esa experiencia. Recuerdo muchas veces cuando mi familia iba hablar que fulano de tal desapareció. Dicen que se lo llevo la guerrilla. Otros dicen que el se unió a la guerrilla. Y pasaron años y años y muchos amigos de mi mama nunca los encontraron. Sus cuerpos, no se supo nada que paso. No se supo.
MC: Desaparecieron.
SVP: Desaparecieron. Había una historia que mi mama siempre contaba y me, siempre me la imagino que este amigo a la media noche, se tuvo que esconder porque llego el gobierno, los militares, buscándolo. Y el se subió a un palo y paso toda la noche subido en un árbol.
MC: Escondiéndose.
SVP: Escondiéndose. Esperando que se fueran para poder salir, por ejemplo. Eso es cuando estaba chiquita. Después, en los en, entre los nueve y quince años de mi vida recuerdo que, si había muchos problemas en cuanto, sabotearon la planta eléctrica. Entonces, de arrepiente no vamos a tener electricidad por días. O, quemaron un bus en forma de protesta. Entonces no vamos a tener transporte. Hubo una gran matanza que se llama La Matanza del Mozote donde el gobierno fue y mato comunidades enteras. Una comunidad, por ejemplo.
MC: ¿Con niños y mujeres?
SVP: Todos. Todos. Todos. Yo no recuerdo esa noticia. Yo me di cuenta y leí de eso cuando era mas adulta. Pues yo no recuerdo eso estar en las noticias porque mi mama me hablaba o me contaba eso y yo, nunca. Era como trataban de protegernos de ese tipo de historias. Eso, fue pequeña, entonces yo no me acuerdo bien que pasó en esos años. Sabíamos que había guerra. Oíamos. Le veíamos. De repente no va ver luz por una semana, por ejemplo. No hay electricidad. Lo que recuerdo también fue-- o y recuerdo una vez cuando íbamos a la casa de mi abuelita y pasábamos por esta calle, un callejón. Y recuerdo que iba mi primo que es, era adulto, y mi mama, mas o menos de la misma edad. Mi abuelita. O, íbamos al entierro a mi bis abuelito y recuerdo que íbamos caminando y recuerdo que todos nos dijeron, cierren los ojos. Y íbamos caminando. Yo cerré los ojos y yo recuerdo que mi primo me agarro y yo cerré. Fui honesta. Pero mis dos hermanas no cerraron los ojos. Porque claro, tenían curiosidad. Y una vio el cuerpo en un lado y la otra fue la cabeza de este cuerpo en el otro lado. Entonces, ella si tienen ese recuerdo fuerte. Pero yo, si cerré los ojos, pero ellas vieron eso. Después, me acuerdo en el 92 cuando fue la defensiva final que esa si nos toco cerca porque nuestra casa estaba como a diez minutos de la fuerza armada. De donde esta todo de la fuerza armada, ¿no? Y esa fue la final. Me recuerdo que estábamos en la calle jugando y ya oíamos disparos. Y las noticias empezaba decir que todos teníamos que estarnos en la casa. Quedarnos ahí. Y recuerdo que, pues, pusimos el radio y nos dimos cuenta algo esta pasando. Y empezaron a decir que ya la guerrilla había atacado esta zona. Y la guerrilla iba ganando. Y el punto de ellos era tomar la fuerza armada. Entonces para eso tenían que pasar por mi casa para la fuerza armada. Antes de eso tenían que pasar por la casa de mi mejor amiga. Entonces, mi mejor amiga me llamo que en su colonia que esta tres minutos, cinco minutos de mi casa, la guerrilla estaba caminando casa por casa por casa para avanzar. Entonces, estaban las casas están pegaditas, ¿no?
MC: Si. Mhm.
SVP: Entonces estaban abriendo hoyos en las paredes para avanzar por dentro de las casas. Y recuerdo que una de las noches cayo una llamada a mi casa. Y yo conteste y ellos me dijeron que eran los del FMLN, la guerrilla. Que teníamos que desocupar la casa en ese momento porque ellos la iban a usar. Yo tire el teléfono. Yo no podía hablar. Estaba como, sentí el agua caliente que corría por todo mi cuerpo. Y todos me decían: ¿Qué, que, que? Yo no podía hablar. No quería decirle porque iba dar miedo. Pero al mismo tiempo yo estaba llorando. Tenemos que irnos de aquí ya. Y recuerdo que esa noche nos fuimos a dormir en la casa de vecino porque lo que pasaba es que mi casa era la ultima casa. Iba ser la primera casa de ser atacada para poder avanzar por las otras casas. No fuimos a dormir en casa del vecino y a la media noche llegaron a disparar increíblemente como nunca había oído yo. Tan cerca las balas. Y se fueron y no paso nada.
MC: ¿En cuando paso eso, adonde se fueron? ¿Se fueron de la casa? ¿En donde se fueron?
SVP: Si. Si. Si. Nos fuimos. Pero antes de todo eso llego un carro. Lo abandonaron en frente de mi casa. Era un jeep abandonado. Bueno, estaba como una cuadra de mi casa y después lo manejaron enfrente de mi casa. El jeep estaba lleno de armas. Y creo que la idea era que la gente tomara las armas y se uniera a la guerrilla, ¿no? Pero lo que paso fue que la gente se robo las armas que con el tiempo usaron las armas para ser actos criminales. Entonces las pandillas básicamente usaron todas esas armas por decir algo. Eso fue uno. El otro fue que había- en mi casa estaban construyendo una calle nueva, entonces del gobierno había una casita con miles de herramientas de construcción. La guerrilla llego allá y le dijo al vigilante con la pistola, ¿no? Nos tienen que prestar las pala, piocha, todo para ir. Lo vamos a usar y lo vamos a traer en la mañana. Se lo llevaron en la media noche supuestamente era para abrir tumbas y enterrar a los muertos. Y a las cuatro de la mañana regresaron todito. Ósea, no robaron a la gente, pero si nos atemorizaban, ¿no? Lo regresaron todo. No se robaron nada. Entonces, después de cinco o, creo que duro siete días todo, pero después de tres días, nos fuimos de la colonia. Nos tuvimos que ir y nos fuimos a casa de una tía que vivía en una, en otra ciudad. Pero donde no estaba pasando nada porque estaba pasando mas que todo, nuestra comunidad porque iban atacar la fuerza armada. Nos fuimos para donde mi tía pasamos ahí unos cinco o seis días. No recuerdo muy bien.
MC: Si.
SVP: Y después regresamos a la casa ya cuando todo había acabado. Pero en eso podíamos ver que habían quemado la fabrica, unas de las fabricas mas grandes de San Salvador – de El Salvador. Se llama la Diana. Y lo podríamos que esta el otro lado de la cuidad. Podíamos ver hasta el otro lado el humo. Era un chaos total.
MC: Wow. ¿Y esa casa, era donde tu creciste?
SVP: Aja. Si.
MC: ¿La misma casa?
SVP: Si. La misma casa donde yo crecí. Y vivía por, estuvimos ahí por mas de 28 años. Bueno, todavía mi mama tiene la casa.
MC: ¿Sí? ¿Todavía?
SVP: [riza]
MC: Wow.
SVP: Entonces ella a tenido esta casa por 45 años. [riza]
MC: Wow. Que historia y que miedo.
SVP: Si. Ahora que recuerdo vivíamos en miedo. [riza]
MC: No me puedo imaginar eso.
SVP: Si.
MC: Bueno, cambiando un poquito el tema, después de todo eso, como usted, ¿como tu no se. ¿Como llegaste a los Estados Unidos? ¿O qué paso después de todo eso?
SVP: Si. Entonces después de todo eso, en 2001 fue el año del terremoto. Mhm. Y bueno hay esta asociación que se llama Cuerpo de Paz y mi esposo es de Kansas City originalmente y el se fue a El Salvador como Cuerpo de Paz. Eso es interesante porque primero el viaje de el tenia que salir en Septiembre pero por las- se cayeron la torres gemelas cuando paso ese tentado. Su viaje se tubo que retrasar—
MC: Posponer.
SVP: Mhm. Llego mucho mas después de lo que habían pensado. Ese terremoto había pasado en enero. El llego en noviembre, pero la carretera principal todavía estaba cerrada. La panamericana que corre por todo sur américa y Centroamérica. Estaba cerrada por el terremoto. Entonces, conocí a mi esposo una vez que estábamos manejando y mi prima estaba manejando y todos mis otros primos, hermanos, amigos, estábamos en el pickup. En una troca como les dicen los mexicanos. [riza] Estábamos atrás todos y mi esposo estaba pidiendo un ride. Quería que alguien lo llevara. Y mi primo paro y lo subimos ahí. Pero el vivía en, con otro primo como estaba en capacitación. El vivía allá. Lo conocía si y lo conocí como voluntario de paz. Mientras era voluntario fuimos novios por dos años y nos casamos. Y por eso yo me vine a Estados Unidos. Pero yo pienso también que, si yo no me hubiera casado con el, yo me hubiera venido de todas maneras. De alguna manera hubiera llegado a Estados Unidos o otro país porque la situación era terrible en El Salvador.
MC: ¿Por lo mismo?
SVP: Mhm.
MC: ¿De todo?
SVP: De todo. Lo que te e contado. [riza]
MC: Wow.
SVP: Si. Si.
MC: Entonces, que linda historia como conoció su esposo. ¿Eso paso en 2001?
SVP: En el 2001 nos conocimos. Nos casamos en el 2004 y llegue aquí en el 2004 cuando tenia 28 años.
MC: ¿28 años?
SVP: Aja. Y tuve que aprender ingles porque yo no sabia- bueno, mientras fuimos novios tomé clases de ingles todos los días por dos horas. Todos días. Y yo pensaba que yo sabia un montón. [riza] Y yo llegue aquí y alguien me preguntaba algo y yo solo con la cabeza decía si o decía no. No tenia ni voz. No quería ni usar mi voz. Y cualquier cosa yo iba responderle a mi esposo en español. Mi esposo iba traducir. Y después de un mes, mi esposo dice yo estoy cansado de estar traduciendo. Esto no puede pasar. Tiene que hablar ingles. ¡Y yo no puedo! ¡No puedo! [riza]
MC: ¿Entonces cuando conoció a su esposo, en ese tiempo, no sabias ingles?
SVP: ¡No!
MC: El sabia un poquito de español?
SVP: ¡Si! Si. Si. Y en su capacitación. En su capacitación que ellos reciben en el Cuerpo de Paz lo cual es genial para cualquier persona que quiera aprender español. La capacitación de Cuerpo de Paz es lo mejor. Así el aprendió. Pero el también tenia maestros, ósea, yo. Su maestra privada. [riza] Pero también mi familia. Todo el tiempo le estamos enseñado. Y el quería aprender español. Y yo siempre quise aprender ingles. Y podía, pero no era la realidad como yo pensaba que eso era. No. Es difícil. [riza]
MC: ¿Como era ese proceso para ti? ¿Se casaron en El Salvador y después se mudo y como fue ese proceso de inmigración? ¿Tuvo que agarrar su visa?
SVP: Si.
MC: ¿Me puede contar un poco?
SVP: Afortunadamente nosotros teníamos mi familia y yo teníamos visa de turistas. Entonces yo podía entrar al país como turista. Entonces, venimos aquí para pasar tiempo con su familia y decidimos no, no vale la pena regresar al El Salvador, solicitar los papeles allá y esperar dos años. Mejor nos quedamos aquí en los Estados Unidos. Va ser mas fácil. Fui a vivir a Kansas City por seis meses. Bueno no. Vivimos allá por un año. Y mientras tanto, pues esperando los papeles y yo empecé dar clases privadas de español. Y, mi esposo trabajaba como mantenimiento en un edificio. Y así el solicito para una beca para poder estudiar. Y recibió una beca aquí en Carolina del Norte. Y por eso no venimos para acá para Carolina del Norte. Pero el proceso es duro. Es costoso. Esta uno en incertidumbre. Porque el no podía comprarme seguro medico si no tener un numero de seguro social, por ejemplo. Y exactamente no tengo seguro social, no tengo seguro medico, y me enfermo y tengo que ir—tuve que ir al hospital. Y después esta gran cuente, ¿no? Que uno tiene que pagar. Aparte de todo es, en Kansas City no había muchos latinos allá. Entonces yo solamente pasaba tiempo con gente que hablaba español-en ingles. Y era bueno porque aprendía un montón, pero estaba, estaba deprimiéndome. Como no hablan mi idioma. No hay música. No hay comida que me gusta. No esta mi familia. No están mis amigos. La familia de mi esposo me trato bien. Y yo era la reina. Me trataban súper bien. Querían hacerme feliz, pero me hacia falta lo que yo estaba acostumbrada, ¿no?
MC: Claro.
SVP: Y después de eso aun que uno es un adulto, un profesional, yo tengo una carrera, pero porque tengo un acento fuerte en ingles, todavía la gente piensa que uno no es tan inteligente porque no hablo ni ingles bien o no entiende tal palabra uno no es inteligente. Pero si es. Lo que pasa es que aprender lenguas no es fácil. [riza]
MC: Claro que no.
SVP: Entonces-- y tratan como un niño. Te hablan como un niño pequeño.
MC: O te hablan mas despacio.
SVP: O te gritan. Bueno no, yo escucho bien pero no puedo entender. Entonces, es todas esas cosas son como de repente uno dice, yo no quiero estar aquí. Ya me quiero ir a mi casa. Pero después con el tiempo, uno se acostumbra. Aprende. Sabe no, este es mi casa hoy.
MC: Si. Y eso, cuando usted se mudo aquí en Carolina del Norte, ¿que año fue eso?
SVP: En el 2004. No. No. No. El 2005 a Carolina del Norte.
MC: Y es porque su esposo es el que agarro –
SVP: --Una beca en la universidad primero y bueno la idea era que nosotros tenemos familia en Maryland y que yo iba estar mas cerca que la familia, pero todavía esta lejos entonces nunca visite a nadie allá. Empecé trabajar aquí mientras yo podía ser residente en Carolina del Norte y empecé a solicitar una beca para mi para poder estudiar también porque realmente yo siempre quería ser, quería enseñar. Yo siempre e sido una educadora. Pero me di cuenta que si uno no tiene educación es difícil encontrar un trabajo estable y hacer lo que te gusta. Me dieron una beca al final pude hacer una – me dieron como una asistencia y pude trabajar y estudiar y también fuimos los dos a la Universidad Estatal de Carolina del Norte.
MC: ¿NC State?
SVP: NC State. Si.
MC: Que bueno. ¿Que estudio ahí?
SVP: Saque una maestría en artes. Para enseñar-- poder enseñar español.
MC: Que bueno. Y es lo que esta haciendo ahorita, ¿verdad?
SVP: Si. Es lo que hago hoy, bueno tengo algunos trabajos. Soy como tu, que me gusta ser de todo. Si hay algo que quiero hacer, lo hago. Y me encanta. Entonces, si. Enseño español en esta universidad Lenoir Rhyne. Es una universidad privada. Pequeña. Y los estudiantes, todo es personalizado. Antes enseñe en la Universidad Estatal, también trabaje como profesora de español allá por unos años antes de irnos al Cuerpo de Paz. Y cuando regresamos del Cuerpo de Paz me vine a trabajar a esta universidad.
MC: Si. Que bueno. Puedes hablar un poco de tu experiencia en el cuerpo de paz? Como fue eso porque tu también participaste.
SVP; ¡Si!
MC: ¿Que programa y cuando fue? ¿Me puede contar un poco de eso?
SVP: Entonces después de que me gradué de la universidad, trabajé allá en – me contrataron para trabajar como una instructora de español y cuando mi esposo era voluntario yo siempre quería trabajar. Me encantaba su trabajo y en El Salvador nos dimos cuenta que las mujeres no confían en un hombre tanto. Entonces, tenían pena de hablar con un hombre. Siempre pensamos ha de ser chévere como pareja, hacerlo como pareja. Porque los hombres pueden trabajar con los hombres, las mujeres con las mujeres o pueden experimentar que se puede trabajar hombre con mujer, mujer con hombre. Y siempre queríamos irnos al Cuerpo de Paz y bueno adoptamos una niña. Es mi sobrina que tenia 15 años y cuando ella se graduó de la escuela secundaria dijimos ok. Ella ya se puede ir. Nosotros también nos podemos ir. Nos fuimos al Cuerpo de Paz y no seleccionaron para ir a Panamá. Nos fuimos a Panamá y fuimos a vivir en una comunidad indígena. Bueno, Panamá es un país rico porque tienes el Canal y ganan millones diario. Pero los millones no llegan a las comunidades indígenas. Entonces, vivimos en una comunidad donde no había agua potable ni había electricidad. Teníamos que filtrar el agua. Teníamos que hacer todo en el día cuando había luz solar, ¿no? Nos fuimos a vivir allá por tres años y como siempre e estado de la educación y siempre me a gustado en el empoderamiento de mujeres. Creamos un grupo que se llamaba Universidad al Campo donde seleccionábamos jóvenes que querían ir a la universidad y los preparábamos para ir a la universidad. Los llevamos a conocer la universidad, a ver las carreras. Les dábamos clases de computación, clases de desarrollo profesional para que estén listos para ir allá. Y también en la casa damos clases a los niños. Teníamos una biblioteca. Los niños venían a la casa de nosotros y todos los días de cuatro a seis teníamos hasta 25 niños.
MC: ¡Wow!
SVP: Era intenso. Pero los niños eran, ósea, nos hacían, nos hicieron la vida feliz. Llegaban, aprendían a leer, escribir, aprender a relacionarse, a trabajar en equipo, liderazgo. Recibir un poco de amor y cariño porque en las comunidades indígenas no reciben un abrazo de nadie. No reciben un te quiero. No reciben eres bueno, inteligente. Nada. Entonces todo eso trabajamos con los jóvenes en el autoestima. El autoconfianza. Y mi esposo trabajaba en el área de agricultura que eso a sido siempre lo que el a hecho.
MC: Pues que bueno. Se escucha como una experiencia tan buena que ustedes estuvieron juntos.
SVP: ¡Si! Si. Y es otra de las que las parejas o sobreviven o se matan. [riza] Pero yo pienso encontramos apoyo mutuo. Porque, yo no se si pudiera haber hecho sola. Vivíamos en una comunidad aislada y es una comunidad dura en el sentido que otra vez porque son indígenas no reciben este, no tienen esa experiencia de decir gracias, por ejemplo. En la lengua de ellos no existe la palabra gracias entonces no saben como apreciar. Entonces uno siente que no lo quieren. Uno se siente que no caí bien. Ese tipo de cosa. Entonces fue bueno de tener un apoyo.
MC: Si. Pues que bueno. Este, quería preguntar también, ¿como llegaron aquí en Catawba County?
SVP: Aja.
MC: Que si estoy muy interesada en eso porque yo me mude aquí hace diez años.
SVP: Aja.
MC: Me mude aquí en 2012 y es muy diferente de nuestros países.
SVP: Si. Si.
MC: ¿Como fue eso y este, como a cambiado este lugar desde usted-- cuando llego usted?
SVP: Aja. No te voy a mentir que a sido- estoy sorprendida de vivir aquí porque esta comunidad es una comunidad súper pequeña. Es muy conservadora. Y hay gente buenísima, pero, aun que la gente es súper buena, todavía se puede sentir que te miran como una persona de afuera. No solamente porque me miro así con pelo negro, bajita, morena, pero solamente por--pero también, aunque la gente se mire blanca, para la gente que no es de aquí, siempre va ser una gente de afuera, ¿no? A mi me gusta mucho porque es un lugar donde tenemos una casa donde podemos tener un huerto que mi esposo le encanta. Es una casa, es una comunidad donde no hay trafico. Pero llegamos aquí porque mi esposo aplico, solicitó un trabajo como director de la Oficina de Extensión Cooperativa. Y le dieron el trabajo entonces yo vine con el. Fue causalidad yo apliqué, solicité esta universidad. Tuve la suerte que alguien se había ido y me contrataron. Yo no había- mi esposo viajo y vio la cuidad y por supuesto que los gustos de mi esposo y los míos son diferentes. Pero, abecés amas tanto tu pareja que le tienes que confiar. [riza]
MC: Claro.
SVP: Entonces, yo le confié y viniendo del Cuerpo de Paz y vivir en un área sin electricidad, sin agua, esto iba ser fácil, ¿no? Esto va ser la maravilla. No tenia miedo. Yo pensé, va funcionar. Nos vamos adaptar. Otra vez los salvadoreños súper resilentes y hacen lo que tienen que hacer. Vine aquí por primera vez- fue como un 12 de diciembre. Llegue a las 11:30 a Hickory porque tenia una entrevista de trabajo a las 12. [riza]
MC: ¡Wow!
SVP: Entonces, manejando directo a la universidad. Nunca había visto a la universidad. Nunca había visto Hickory. Nada. Y afortunadamente me dieron el trabajo y me encanta. La universidad me encanta. Siempre estar un área educativa, en un campus, con los estudiantes. Los estudiantes me rejuvenecen.
MC: Si.
SVP: Me dan una enejaría que necesito para vivir, sentirme feliz. Entonces me encanta. Pero otra vez, abecés el ambiente, puede ser como siempre sos una de afuera. No sos de aquí. Pero parte de eso, es fácil vivir aquí. Nunca hay trafico. Hay espacio. Nunca hay un problema de parqueo. Por ejemplo, mi hermana una vez le digo, te espero en el centro de convenciones. ¿Y ella me dice, donde me tengo que parquear? Yo le digo, en el centro de convenciones. Porque ella vive en Maryland y el centro de convenciones allá en Washington tiene que parquearse como tres cuadras y caminar y eso. ¡Y yo, no! Es fácil. Todo es fácil. Nunca hay problema de estacionamiento. Nada. Tenemos muchos amigos que e encontrado aquí que me hacen súper feliz y me gusta mucho el estilo de vida rural. Yo soy una persona de ciudad y extraño eso. Cuando voy a Raleigh o a Charlotte es como [emocionada]. Me encanta, pero también me encanta vivir pacíficamente. Tranquilamente.
MC: Si. Si. Es muy tranquilo y es también mi experiencia.
SVP: Aja.
MC: De venir y vivir en otros lugares, otros países. Pero si, aquí es muy tranquilo.
SVP: Si.
MC: La naturaleza también. Te quería preguntar también sobre tu trabajo. ¿También trabajas en el library? En la biblioteca. ¿Cual es tu posición ahí?
SVP: Se llama la posición, es como un library specialist. Una especialista. Pero, realmente lo que yo hago es, soy el enlace Latino entre la biblioteca y la comunidad latina. Mi trabajo es encontrar los recursos y dárselos a la gente. Entonces, es como soy la referencia de los latinos. ¿Donde hay un abogado? ¿Donde me puedo casar? En la biblioteca también creamos un programa que se llama Homework Helpers que es tutoría. Ves, la mayoría de los padres latinos que no hablan español. Sus hijos sufren las consecuencias, ¿no? Y les cuesta o les tarda un poquito mas en aprender y leer y escribir. Entonces es un recurso que los padres me dijeron. ¿Porque no ofrecen esto? Lo necesitamos. Y generalmente en este programa tenemos de 25 a 30 estudiantes que vienen a leer por treinta minutos. Y es comprobado que sus notas, su compresión, todo mejora. Solamente por venir y leer con un tutor. Los tutores son estudiantes de la escuela secundaria que necesitan servicio comunitaria. Horas de servicio comunitaria y provén entonces eso es una ayuda mutua. Y eso es lo que hago. Ofrecemos clases de ingles para los hispanohablantes. Programas que ahora por la pandemia no estamos ofreciendo muchos, pero siempre antes yo ofrecía un programa al mes. Entonces, aprendan como comer saludable. Aprenda a como hacer joyas o aritos. Aprenda como cuidar sus hijos emocionalmente. Un montón de talleras o talleres para empoderamiento de mujeres. También creamos un club de lectura en español donde hay como diez, once personas que participan. Leemos en español. Nos reunimos una ves al mes. ¿Que mas? Bueno y cosas así, ¿no?
MC: Si.
SVP: Ayudar a los latinos a encontrar esos recursos que ellos piensan que no existe o que no saben como conectarlos. Pues yo los conecto con las cosas de la comunidad.
MC: Si. Yo cuando me mudé aquí me sorprendí que si hay una populación de latinos aquí en el condado de Catawba.
SVP: ¡Si! Somos el 10% casi 11% de la comunidad. Mhm.
MC: Si. ¿Y tu trabajo con el-la comunidad latina, tu que piensas Soraya que son los recursos que necesitan mas? ¿Como que tipo de recursos necesitan los latinos que viven aquí en el condado?
SVP: Aja.
MC: O, ¿que son recursos que tu piensas que ellos buscan mas?
SVP: Que buscan mas. Ok. So, lo que buscan mas quieren aprender ingles. Todo el mundo quiere ayudar a sus hijos. No es que no quieran. Es que no pueden. Aun que yo, por ejemplo, que puedo hablar ingles, las formas de matemáticas que yo aprendí en mi país, aquí es diferente. La división. Como dividir números. Aquí el sistema es diferente que lo que es en El Salvador. Yo no podría ayudarle a mis hijos a dividir o a ensenarles a dividir, por ejemplo. Necesitaría ayuda de alguien mas porque los sistemas son diferentes. Entonces ellos quieren aprender ingles para ayudar a sus hijos. Aprender ingles para poder ir al doctor y no depender que sus hijos trabajen. Ellos necesitan mucha ayuda con inmigración. ¿Que deben de hacer? Los abogados de inmigración son- los costos son elevados que no todo el mundo puede pagar así. La inseguridad en cuanto a manejar sin licencia, eso ellos necesitan como que van hacer? Tienen que llevar sus hijos a la escuela, a las citas medicas. Ellos quieren cumplir con todo, pero, no tienen quien ayudarles encontrar ese tipo de cosas. Medicinas. Doctores que si no tienen seguro medico, donde pueden encontrar la atención que necesitan sin costarles un ojo de la cara, por ejemplo. ¿Que mas? Ayuda en cuanto a sus niños para tener excito en la escuela porque de verdad, no es que los padres no quieran ir a las reuniones. Solamente que no saben como. No saben que hacer. No haya entender cuando están explicando. Sus niños tienen que ser esto, esto y esto y ellos quieren ayudar, pero como no entendieron el mensaje no le van ayudar el niño. Entonces necesitan traductores que puedan ayudarles. Lo cual voy a ser honesta que ahora en el condado yo e visto mucha mas información que nunca en español y en ingles. Casi casi todo esta siendo hoy bilingüe. Voy a decir que el condado de Catawba esta haciendo un trabajo buenísimo en cuanto han tener gente por ejemplo con la pandemia. A tener la información en los dos idiomas. Educar a la gente en los dos idiomas. Porque mucha gente no es que no quiera, solamente que el mensaje no llega porque no esta en la lengua, ¿no? Y otra cosa también que yo siento que el condado esta haciendo un buen trabajo en recordar y enfocarse para quien es el mensaje. Es para gente que tiene educación o es para gente que no a tenido educación, pero todavía necesita entender este mensaje. Todos están haciendo mucho mas simple para que el mensaje llegue a la gente.
MC: Claro. Si. Claro. Y una ultima pregunta para ti. ¿Tu piensas que a crecido el numero de latinos aquí en al área? Tu crees que, que están viniendo mas, emigrando de otros países y si si piensas que si esta creciendo, ¿por qué?
SVP: Mhm. Yo la verdad que, yo me incluyo en ese numero de latinos que están viniendo porque yo recientemente hace siete años solamente. Lo que voy a hacer también es que e notado que mucha mas gente de visita a la biblioteca porque desde que hay un servicio en español mas grande y a crecido mas, ellos se comunican entre ellos. Y la gente llega me mandaron que aquí hablan español y vemos que esa comunidad esta creciendo en la biblioteca, por ejemplo. Porque se cuentan entre ellos. Se confían en la biblioteca. La gente sabe que iban encontrar algo confiable, seguro. Y entonces yo veo que esa población si a crecido mas y creo que la gente esta inmigrando por lo mismo. En nuestros países no hay trabajos. Hay muchos profesionales. Se están graduando de la universidad, la gente se gradúa en masas. Pero no encuentran un trabajo profesional o no encuentran un trabajo que pague lo suficiente para cubrir las necesidades de las familias, ¿no? Bueno la gente se viene por falta de trabaja. La gente se viene por problemas económicos, sociales, problemas de delincuencia. Cuanta gente tiene que salir porque están amenazados. Que, si no hacen esto o lo otro, lo van a matar a ellos y sus familias. Ósea, la gente sale por muchas cosas y, pero creo que la mayoría es porque la falta de oportunidades en nuestros países son grandes. No hay muchas oportunidades.
MC: Claro. Si. Yo también veo eso. En mi país, en México y mucha gente que yo e hablado es mucho de lo mismo.
SVP: Aja.
MC: Entonces, bueno muchas gracias—
SVP: No, gracias.
MC: Son todas las preguntas que tengo ahorita. No se si quiere decir otra cosa o unas preguntas--
SVP: -- No. Yo pienso que podríamos hablar mucho mas, pero pienso que [riza] nos vamos aburrir.
MC: [riza] Si.
SVP: Pero, pero me encanta este proyecto que están haciendo porque me da curiosidad cuando estas primeras, segundas generaciones de Carolina del Norte puedan escuchar lo que fuimos nosotros, se van a dar cuenta de- es parte de la historia, ¿no?
MC: Claro.
SVP: Que tal vez no van a encontrar en un libro escrito, pero son historias que cada individuo vive.
MC: Claro. Son experiencias de la gente que-- experiencias vividas.
SVP: Mhm. De la vida normal. Real. Cotidiana.
MC: Y es muy importante. Bueno, pues muchas gracias. Me dio mucho gusto conocerte y hablarte--
SVP: --Igualmente--
MC: -- y escuchar tu historia.
SVP: Igualmente. Gracias.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Educadores
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Español
Es: Resumen
Soraya Valdez Place es profesora de español en la Universidad Lenoir Rhyne y la Especialista en Promoción Comunitaria del sistema de bibliotecas del condado Catawba en Hickory, Carolina del Norte. Es originaria de San Salvador, El Salvador y se mudó por primera vez a los Estados Unidos en el 2004. Soraya cuenta la historia de su vida y explica cómo fue su infancia en El Salvador. Ella reflexiona sobre las luchas que ella y su familia enfrentaron y describe la violencia, los desastres naturales y la guerra civil que asolan a su país. Ella comparte la historia de mudarse a los Estados Unidos por primera vez, los desafíos de aprender inglés y, finalmente, cómo llegó a vivir a Carolina del Norte. También comparte su experiencia de su tiempo en el Cuerpo de Paz y su servicio en el extranjero con su esposo. Soraya habla sobre las diferencias entre la vida en Carolina del Norte, específicamente en el condado de Catawba, y la vida en su hogar en El Salvador. Por último, habla de su trabajo en el condado de Catawba como Profesora de Español y la Especialista en Promoción Comunitaria, sirviendo como puente para la comunidad hispanohablante. Soraya cierra la entrevista contándome sobre los diferentes problemas que enfrenta la comunidad Latina en el condado de Catawba y su trabajo para enfrentar estos problemas mediante la creación de talleres y clases en el sistema local de bibliotecas.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Soraya Valdez Place por Marisa Carlton, 10 February 2022, R-1000, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Cuidadania e inmigracion; Programas de servicios socilaes y comunitarios; Lenguage y comunicación; Comunidades receptoras; Guerra y violencia
Es: Transcripción
Marisa Carlton: Ok. Hola. Me llamo Marisa Carlton. Hoy es el 10 de febrero 2022. Estoy aquí con Soraya Place. Estamos aquí en su oficina en Lenoir Rhyne University. Ella me va contar un poquito sobre su vida y sus experiencias. Muchas gracias Soraya por estar aquí dispuesta de hacer esta entrevista. Ok. Vamos a comenzar.
Soraya Valdez Place: Ok.
MC: ¿Podemos empezar en – me puede contar un poco de su – el país de donde es usted?
SVP: Mhm.
MC: ¿Y como era el lugar? ¿Como creció? ¿De donde es? ¿Donde nació?
Soraya Valdez Place: Mhm. Ok. Yo soy de San Salvador en El Salvador. Y El Salvador es el país mas chiquitito de todo Centroamérica. Le llaman el pulgarcito de América. También le llaman el valle de las hamacas porque esta todo el tiempo temblando, entonces el país se mueve constantemente. Nací en la capital, pero vivíamos en una cuidad que se llama Soyapango que antes cuando yo estaba creciendo en la cuidad era súper segura. Todos podíamos salir a jugar y eran las nueve o diez de la noche y andábamos en la calle corriendo hasta que los papas nos decían: ¡Ya! ¡Hora de dormir! Pero andábamos en grupos con amigas y muchachos y amigos. Pero, después poco a poco se fue poniendo la cuidad un poco mas peligrosa hasta que Soyapango se convirtió en uno do los barrios mas peligrosos de San Salvador. Y cuando ya no podíamos salir. Las casas pasaban con llave. Y eso fue cuando ya era mas grande. Había que echar llave, todo cerrado. Ventanas cerradas para que nadie pudiera ver que haya adentro. Y los ladrones se metieron muchas veces a mi casa. Entonces, de chiquita tengo excelentes memorias porque la pasamos súper bien. Pero, do ahí aquí íbamos creciendo y la delincuencia iba aumentando y la pasamos mal. Varias veces los ladrones se metieron a mi casa cuando no había nadie. Se robaron todo. Había una vez en que llegaron los ladrones y nos apuntaron con pistolas y metieron toda a la familia en el baño chiquitito. Y se llevaron el carro y en el carro echaron las carteras, las televisiones, cámaras, teléfonos, joyas, dinero, todo lo que pudieron. Y se lo llevaron. Nos dejaron encerados ahí y después salimos y se habían llevado todo. Era la hora de almuerzo. No pudimos ni almorzar porque pensábamos que le habían echado veneno a la comida. Ósea, botamos toda la comida. Nos quedamos sin cinco centavos. Sin carro para salir. Entonces tuvimos que buscar ayuda de amigos. Y bueno así era mi cuidad, pero también nosotros estábamos muy conectados con el campo porque mi abuelita viene de un cantón que se llama Molineros y es en San Vicente en otro departamento. Y viajábamos a Molineros constantemente. Cada fin de semana viaje familiar. Era en que, vamos todos o nadie. Entonces, yo vengo de cinco hermanos. Soy la del medio. Tengo dos hermanos mayores, una hermana menor, un hermano menor y yo estoy en medio. Entonces, todos los domingos, en la mañana para el campo y regresamos a noche y hay, creo que son una de las memorias mas divertidas porque siempre había algo. Una experiencia diferente. Sea algo de carro, o no quedábamos sin gasolina o que vamos almorzar y llegar este pueblito estar con los primos, subiéndonos en los palos, comiendo fruta sin lavarnos las manos. Era, pues era una infancia buenísima.
MC: Si.
SVP: La pasamos súper bien.
MC: ¿Tu cuidad—me puede decir otra vez como se llama?
SVP: Soyapango.
MC: Soyapango.
SVP: Aja.
MC: ¿Y esa cuidad era mas, era cuidad grande? ¿Pequeño?
SVP: Si.
MC: O, era cerca de–¿
SVP: -- de San Salvador. Mhm. So, allá en El Salvador nadie tiene carro. Si tenemos carro pero un carro familiar. No es que cada quien tiene su carro entonces en carro podríamos llegar al centro, a la capital en que, veinte minutos.
MC: Ok.
SVP: Treinta minutos. Pero en bus iba tardar 45 minutos, una hora. Mas la trabazón que decimos, o el trafico. ¿Una hora y media depende no? Pero muy cerca la capital.
MC: Ok.
SVP: Mhm.
MC: Y, cuando usted estaba contando de la delincuencia que eso-- ¿cuándo paso eso? ¿Cuantos anos tenias que tu notaste un cambio? ¿Como que año o cuantos años tenias cuando tu notaste eso?
SVP: Yo pienso que cuando ya tenia como 14, 15 años. Maybe. O tal vez desde los 17. Hasta que me fui de esa colonia. De ese lugar hasta, desde los 17 hasta los 28 años. Fueron todos eso años desde que vivíamos con miedo. Todo el tiempo. Porque, las maras crecieron. Las pandillas o las maras empezaron a crecer. Había mucha delincuencia. Vivíamos mas con temor después de mis 15 a 17 años hasta que me fui a los 28 años.
MC: Claro. ¿Y eso como era para ti? ¿Si me puedes contar, ibas a la escuela? Me imagino, ¿verdad?
SVP: Mhm. Mhm. Si.
MC: ¿Cómo fue eso que vivían en temor y tenias que ir a la escuela? Me imagino que caminabas o llevaste el bus. ¿Tenias que tener cuidado? ¿Como era eso?
SVP: Entonces, teníamos suerte que todos estudiamos casi en el mismo lugar. Mis hermanos, los cuatro, teníamos suerte de ir a un colegio privado donde no estábamos muy expuestas a la delincuencia. Mi mama tenia un carro entonces ella nos podía llevar en la mañana y recoger en la noche. Entonces, no estábamos tan expuestos como otras amigas que tenían que tomar el bus todos los días. Cuando ya me gradué de del bachillerato en la escuela secundaria, cuando yo me gradué, ya teníamos que—tenia yo que tomar el bus porque ya no íbamos al colegio entonces eran horarios diferentes para toda la familia. Y ahí es donde empezamos a explorar y ver mas cosas de peligro, ¿no? Mas gente que se subían a asaltar en los buses. Es interesante porque uno se acomodo de manera en que uno si llevaba unos aritos o un reloj toda en la bolsa. A llegar en mis clases te lo ponías y ya salías a la clase todo. Saliendo de las clases para tomar el bus uno se vuelve a quitar todo y lo esconde y lo guarda. Los celulares nunca en la mano. Jamás. Bien escondido en silencio porque por ejemplo tenias un celular y sonaba un beep, y había un ladrón iba y te decía: ¡Dame el teléfono ya! Y ahí perdías todo. También uno se acomoda a no tener nada de, ósea nada de lujos. Nada de una carta bonita o eso no. Uno siempre tiene que llevar lo mas – teníamos que llevar lo menos ya que llamara la atención para que no nos asaltaran, por ejemplo. Entonces, si cuando empezamos a tomar el bus fuimos expuestas mas con mis hermanas, pero ahí es donde empezamos a ver que si había mas delincuencia y por supuesto que estaba creciendo mas.
MC: Claro.
SVP: Mhm.
MC: Y no se, tus papas, no se si creciste con los dos en casa en familia. ¿Ellos trabajaron verdad? Ellos trabajaban, ¿no? Yo e escuchado historias que la gente que trabaja luego los como-- ellos tienen-- se enfocan en la gente y los extorsionan. La gente que tiene negocio o trabajan. No se. ¿Ustedes tuvieron experiencia con eso? ¿Experimentaron eso?
SVP: Personalmente no porque cuando yo salí del El Salvador en el 2004, empezaban ese tipo de extorciones a todo mundo. Entonces, no. Gracias a dios no fui expuesta a ese tipo de cosas. Pero, mi mama tenia un negocio y mi papa se murió cuando yo tenia nueve años entonces no. No recuerdo. No tengo muchos recuerdos de el trabajando. Pero, en ese tiempo cuando tenia nueve años estábamos bien. No había tanto peligro.
MC: Claro.
SVP: Pero mi mama recuerdo que en su negocio si, algunas veces se metieron los ladrones y a robar con punta de pistola en la cabeza. Denos todo el dinero y por supuesto que, si tus hijos están ahí, ella iba entregar totalmente todo. Pero, mi hermana. Mi hermana tenia una casa que alquilaba como una clínica y si la extorsionaron. La trataron de extorsionar y mi hermana es súper valiente y mi hermana hablo con los maderos. Y les dijo, ay, yo les ayudo cuando ustedes no tienen dinero yo les doy crédito. Cuando ustedes están enfermos, yo voy a sus casas y les pongo unas inyecciones. Yo cuido su familia porque me quieren extorsionar. Creo que les estaban pidiendo 50 dólares semanales lo cual la gente no gana eso para pagar una extorción así. Entonces, ella fue y hablo con ellos hagamos un trato y los sigo ayudándoles, pero ustedes no me cobren mas. Y la perdonaron. Pero yo oí de muchos que, si no les pagaron, los mataron.
MC: Hm. Si. Y un poquito mas sobre eso. Tu crees que ahorita en El Salvador, tu país, tu opinión. Piensas que es peor ahorita o como ves, que es tu opinión?
SVP: Yo deje de viajar del El Salvador por diez años. Yo no fui porque yo tenia miedo. De verdad. Tenia miedo y no, no quería encontraerme con una situación así. Ahora, también la gente te nota que uno ya no vive allá. Te nota la ropa, como habla, como uno se peina, ¿no? Entonces yo tenia miedo regresar. Pero mi amiga se caso, mi mejor amiga que era como mi hermana. Se caso hace dos años, entonces yo fui por primera vez después de diez años. Y, creo que se a calmado. Creo que tal vez porque no me subí un bus. Siempre estaba con una amiga en un taxi o en carro privado. Nunca en transporte publico. Vi que es menos. Vi que antes habían los maderos estaban caminando en la calle. Tatuados en toda la cara. Ósea te daba un temor horrible. Pero, hoy yo no los vi así. También la ciudad, pero ejemplo el centro de San Salvador, antes uno ni podría caminar ni con un teléfono en la mano. Hoy si. Es turístico. Parece una cuidad europea. Done uno puede caminar por las calles hasta la media noche en el propio centro. Yo nunca había visto eso así nunca en mi vida antes. Eso es súper bonito volver a regresar que esta mas seguro en ese sentido. Puede ser todas esas cosas. Pero, sin embargo, lo que yo y no se. No lo vi. Pero lo que yo e visto es que lo, no es tanto los maderos, pero es mas el crimen organizado. Entonces, ahora este crimen organizado, la gente se viste bien. Ya no se visten como los de antes, no que eran ladrones tradicionales. Si no gente que anda en su propio carro haciendo sus negocios, ¿no? Eso si no lo vi no lo se, pero eso me contaron, pero si. No vi ese tipo de madero tradicional que nos asustaban en las calles, por ejemplo, no vi eso.
MC: Claro. ¿Y cuando fue esos diez años, cuando dejo de ir? ¿Que año fue?
SVP: Yo deje di ir desde el 2000. 2008 al 2018. 2020. Por ahí. 2018.
MC: Ok. ¿Entonces desde el 2018, es cuando regreso apenas?
SVP: Aja. Aja.
MC: ¿Y cuanto tiempo se quedo allá?
SVP: Me quede por diez—doce días.
MC: Oh. Ok.
SVP: Y después regrese este año otra vez. Bueno el año pasado entonces ahora no quiero--. Quiero ir cada dos años. Porque, es tan lindo El Salvador. El Salvador es hermoso. Las playas. Es que, todo. Me encanta. Entonces, ahora no voy a dejar tanto tiempo.
MC: Si.
SVP: Solamente tener cuidado cuando uno viaja y si voy a ir mas.
MC: Si. Claro. Pues me da gusto que puedas volver ahora.
SVP: Si.
MC: Que no es tan peligroso que antes.
SVP: Si.
MC: --Pero. ¿Todavía tienes familia allá?
SVP: Oh. Primos. Tíos. Mis amigas están allá. Pero mi familia inmediata todos están en Estados Unidos ahora.
MC: Todos. Ok. Y, bueno, hablando un poquito sobre eso. ¿Cuándo se mudaron ellos? ¿Se mudaron contigo o después?
SVP: Después. Después. Yo vine en 2004. Y creo que mi hermano se vino el siguiente en 2005. Mi hermana en el siguiente en el 2006. Tres o cuatro años despues mi otra hermana y después mi mama. Y, mi única hermana que no pudo a Estados Unidos se fue a Italia.
MC: Oh.
SVP: Ella vive en Italia ahora porque no, no a podido viajar. No a podido venirse a Estados Unidos. Ahora ella puede visitar porque nos viene a visitar desde Italia, pero no vive en Estados Unidos.
MC: Claro. Ok. Otra pregunta que tenia, mas sobre su infancia o creciendo en su tiempo en El Salvador. Quería preguntarle sobre el clima. Los problemas, le decimos climate change.
SVP: Aja. Aja.
MC: Del ambiente.
SVP: Aja.
MC: ¿Usted-- que tipo de problemas experimento allá? ¿Que fue su experiencia con huracanes o temblores?
SVP: Terremotos. Mhm. La otra cosa es que por si ubicación geográfica El Salvador esta exactamente situado en unas placas tectónicas. Entonces, El Salvador, como te dije, es el valle de las hamacas. Tiembla constantemente. Pero, cada diez años es un estimado, ¿no? Cada diez o doce años hay un terremoto grande que afecta la gente y mi primera experiencia con un terremoto grande fue en el 86 que recuerdo que yo no sabia como era eso hasta que lo pasamos y me dijeron eso fue un terremoto. Y recuerdo que el primer terremoto yo estaba en quinto grado. Y estamos en las clases y de repente temblaba y todo mundo gritaba. No entendíamos. Yo no entendía que estaba pasando porque, si sabíamos que es un temblor, pero no un terremoto. Pero podríamos ver todo el edificio doblado a la derecha a la izquierda. El cielo falso de las casas, de la escuela se cayo. Paredes rajadas. Y, pánico. Todo mundo corriendo. Otros llorando. Todos nos abrazamos. Y desde entonces me recuerdo que empezamos hacer como capacitaciones, ¿no? Que hacer en caso de terremoto. Meterse abajo del pupite. Nadie hace eso. Todo el mundo sale corriendo [riza].
MC: [riza]
SVP: Pero no, eso fue mi primera experiencia y recuerdo que mi mama nos llevo a recoger al colegio. Todas estábamos llorando. Nos fuimos a la casa. No había luz por días. Hubo un colegio católico de niñas que se desplomo totalmente. Hubieron cientos y cientos de muertos. Un edificio principal en el centro de San Salvador, la capital, centro de San Salvador se colapso también. Y había un restaurante donde íbamos de chiquitas que vendían unos-- decíamos unos frescos de ensalada que es un refresco de fruta picada que todo el mundo le gustaba sentarse como un bar. Y todos sentamos ahí pedir una ensalada grande. Ese se desplomo también. Ósea muertos y muertos. Y recuerdo que habían gente de México, Estados Unidos, que llegaron ayudar a encontrar todos eso muertos. Con el tiempo cuando la luz regreso podíamos ver las noticias y darnos cuenta que era mas grave que lo que pensábamos. Y bueno la vida continua, ¿no? Entonces, eso fue en octubre.
MC: Fue en mil novecientos….
SVP: 86.
MC: 86.
SVP: Mhm. Y recuerdo que la escuela termino, todo el colegio el sistema educativo termino 3 semanas antes de lo normal. Todo mundo paso de grado. [riza]
MC: Si, verdad. [riza]
SVP: [riza] Porque nadie hizo los exámenes finales.
MC: [riza] Claro. No.
SVP: Bueno, la vida continua. En enero todos comenzamos las clases y todo. Eso fue mi primer experiencia. La ultima experiencia que yo recuerdo fue en el 2001. Es interesante porque esta, este fue otro terremoto que experimente. Hubo uno en febrero, enero y uno en febrero. Con un mes de diferencia. Y este nos toco cerca mi familia porque en enero hubo el—ese terremoto fue fuertísimo y recuerdo que todo mundo empieza a llamar, ¿no? Las líneas están saturadas porque todo el mundo esta llamando todo mundo.
MC: Están chequeando en la familia.
SVP: Si. Como esta fulano, ósea, todo mundo. Y recuerdo que fue fuerte en este cantón que se llamaba Molineros de donde es mi abuelita. Y recuerdo que las paredes estaban quebradas. Rajadas. Algunas de lado listas para caerse. Las casas, todas las casas se dañaron en esta comunidad. Y bueno, otra vez la vida continua. Seguimos trabajando. En febrero exactamente el mes, hay otro segundo terremoto. Enorme. Fuerte. No recuerdo que escala fue, pero tiene que ver sido mas de siete punto algo porque de ahí para arriba todo es tragedia. Y recuerdo que las casas que habían quedado dañadas se desplomaron. Y empezaron a llamar la familia que habían perdido todo. La comunidad de mi abuelita salió afectada. Perdimos unos de nuestros mejores amigos de la familia. Que la noche anterior habíamos estado en el Cantón y yo le había dicho vámonos a la casa porque abecés el se iba a vivir con nosotros por una semana.
MC: ¿En tu, en tu cuidad?
SVP: En la comunidad de mi abuelita y el venia a mi cuidad y se quedaba con nosotros. Y el no quiso venir. El dijo no, no me siento bien. Y yo: that’s why. Por eso debes de irte. Así te podemos dar medicina y tratamiento y el no quiso, pero murió el siguiente día. Hubieron varios muertos en la comunidad porque le cayeron las paredes en sima a la gente. Y recuerdo que mi mama, mi mama era la salvadora siempre. Mi mama cualquier problema que había en el cantón le llamaban. Mi mama sabia como solucionar. Y me acuerdo que mi mami dice vamos, tenemos que ir. La gente tiene hambre. No hay agua. En este entonces, no había agua potable. Gente sacaba agua de los posos. Pero los posos se secaron porque hubieron derrumbes. No había agua. No había comida. No había nada. Entonces me recuerdo que fuimos a comprar plátanos, pan, arroz, frijoles y llevábamos. Y era un--era tenebroso. Íbamos y veíamos todas las casas tiradas hasta-- porque esta comunidad como una hora y media. Y nos dio miedo. De verdad. Todas las calles había grietas. Habían hoyos. Hubo una maestra que la tierra se abrió y la tierra se la trago. Pero, como la tierra se habría y se cerraba ella no se fue totalmente todo su cuerpo, pero se quedo hasta la cintura.
MC: Si.
SVP: La tierra la apretaba y la abría y la apretaba y le quebró las piernas. Eso fue en la comunidad de mi abuelita. Y cuando llegamos allá yo me acuerdo que toda mi familia estaban bañados en tierra. Les callo como un balde de tierra. Las pestañas blancas. El pelo blanco porque las casas se cayeron y toda esa tierra les cayo encima. Mi prima, por ejemplo, ella trato de agarrarse de algo y si agarro de un alambre de púa y tenia todas las manos rascadas, los pies raspados porque cuando corrieron se cayeron y se raspaban. Los muertos estaban en el, en la plaza central por decir algo en el parque central y era tenebroso. Era horrible. Mientras tanto, seguía temblando y seguía temblando y las casa ya no- las casas que se quedaron paradas todavía teníamos miedo qué fueran a colapsar. No se si dormimos o no dormimos esa noche. Fue—nos dio miedo de verdad. Pero mi mama tenia que llevar comida para todos y fuimos y todos, ósea, yo creo que yo tenia como unos 22 o 23 años.
MC: Si.
SVP: Mhm. Ya estábamos mayores, pero todavía era algo que no podíamos controlar. Un desastre natural fuerte. Eso fue el ultimo y fue triste. Fue muy triste. De ahí, cosas buenas vienen porque hay mucha ayuda de otros países. Y la gente, mucha gente le construyeron las casas. Llego el agua potable. Ahora la gente ya no tiene que usar mucho los posos. Ya corre el agua y cosas así. Pero, fue triste. Fue muy duro. Eso por terremotos. ¿No se si quieres que cuente de huracanes? [riza]
MC: Si. Claro. Si también. Si, yo se que, pues El Salvador es, ahí esta en el medio de Centroamérica donde esta el mar. Entonces, si. ¿Que fue su experiencia con huracanes?
SVP: El huracán que yo viví de cerca fue el huracán Mitch y uh—
MC: ¿Que año fue eso?
SVP: En el, quiero decir en el 98.
MC: Ok.
SVP: Pero no estoy segura tenemos que buscar eso. Porque no estoy segura si fue en el 98. Pero, si, empezó a llover un día, dos días. Y otra vez como, ósea uno-- nunca habíamos pasado por un huracán. Entendemos exactamente pero el huracán también puede pasar de categoría uno, dos y sube y uno nunca sabe hasta donde va pasar, ¿no?
MC: Y en ese tiempo, ¿eso fue el, como el primer huracán que tu tuviste esa experiencia?
SVP: El único que e visto daño grande grave o daños exagerados—
MC: --Claro. Si.
SVP: -- O daños que, si mato gente, conocidos o en el que yo tome acción, ¿no? Ya esta en el 98 pues yo era parte de la asociación scouts de El Salvador con mis amigas allá y mi mejor amiga que es otra como mi hermana. Y me acuerdo que ella me dice, tenemos que ir. Tenemos que colaborar. Tenemos que irnos ahí para ayudar. A la asociación y a le gente, ¿no? Los scouts se iban como la cruz roja a ayudar. Había-- porque mucha gente vivía a la orilla de los ríos. Entonces es peligrosísimo ir a evacuar la gente, llevar comida, ropa, porque todo el mundo pierde todo. Entonces, me acuerdo que, nos fuimos a la asociación scouts a ayudar. Ellas mas que yo porque yo en un momento que ya nadie podía salir de las casas. Y mis amigas llegaron antes para ayudar. Yo ya no pude llegar porque nadie podía manejar ni salir a ningún lado. Era tan peligroso. Los vientos botaron arboles, los palos, los postes de eléctrico. Entonces, no había luz y bueno, accidentes por todos lados. Desborde de ríos que es lo peor yo pienso que puede haber. Bueno, entonces yo no ayude mucho, pero mis amigas si. Y otra vez, es como volver a reconstruir el país. Imagínate en el 98 tenemos este huracán que mata tanta gente, que trae tanta destrucción. Mas pobreza. Ya no hay empleos porque toda esta gente que perdió sus negocios no pueden volver a empezar y contratar otra gente. Entonces mucha gente sin—mucha gente con desempleo. En el 98 y en el 2001 los terremotos y El Salvador, el país a sido golpeado por todos lados.
MC: Claro.
SVP: Y la guerra civil antes de eso. Y las maras. Entonces, la gente es súper resilente. Y yo abecés no me explico como somos normales. [riza] Después de pasar tantas cosas terribles.
MC: Si.
SVP: Es muchas tragedias, pero también la gente a mi me--la gente salvadoreña y no es porque sea salvadoreña pero los salvadoreños siempre tienen una actitud positiva. Siempre trabajan mas de lo que tienen que trabajar. Dan mas. Comprarte hasta lo que no tienen. Y mucha gente se queda sin comer lo que, su comida por darle al otro, aunque el otro tenga mas. No importa. Hay que compartir. Es increíble. Y así son los salvadoreños.
MC: Si.
SVP: Entonces, esos dos, esos dos desastres naturales han afectado a El Salvador bastante.
MC: Claro. Me imagino. ¿Y el gobierno de El Salvador que, como ayudaron? ¿No se si ayudaron o no en tu opinión? ¿Como ayudaron ellos durante esos problemas de naturaleza?
SVP: Lo que pasa es que es difícil saber. Generalmente lo que yo viví es que siempre hay un montón de corrupción. Lo que yo vi y lo vi a nivel personal en la comunidad de mi abuelita, por ejemplo. Es que hay mucha ayuda extranjera. Sin limites. Ósea, yo recuerdo que llegaban camiones y camiones para regalar comida, para regalar ropa, para regalar medicina. Pero hay corrupción al nivel del gobierno y al nivel de sub gobierno y comunitario. Yo me acuerdo que los lideres comunitarios en esta comunidad es como, estos zapatos para mi nieto. Esta, esta comida, reste arroz que se veía mas fino que esta, que es mas caro para mi familia. Llegaba una pipa de agua. Es como un camión grande no, que lleva el agua. La pipa de agua y muchas veces los lideres no querían avisar la comunidad para cuando la pipa llega, sus familiares son los primeros. No había mucha igualdad. Ahí era el que era el mas fuerte. El mas vivo. El que tenia mas poder. Y lo mismo paso en el nivel gubernamental. Los que se benefician mas son los que tienen mas poder. Entonces, el gobierno si ayudo en el sentido de que tienen buenas relaciones internacionales con otros países. Que los otros países llevan cosas, a donar y regalar. Porque a nivel mundial, todo mundo estaba recaudado comida, ropa, víveres, lo que sea para mandar a El Salvador. Y se recibió una ayuda increíble. Ahora, si la gente la recibió o no la recibió no, no se. La comunidad de mi abuelita era de fácil acceso. Muy accesible. Y yo vi que llego ayuda. Pero hay otras comunidades que eran muy, muy, mas difícil de acezar que tal ves no recibieron nada.
MC: Claro.
SVP: Pero también hay unas comunidades que recibieron casas construidas totalmente, por ejemplo. Pero también con ayuda extranjera. No necesariamente del gobierno salvadoreño.
MC: Claro. Si. ¿Y en ese tiempo de los huracanes y los terremotos, tuvieron otras experiencias con lo de la naturaleza o el clima?
AVP: ¿Que mas? A ver, estoy tratando de pensar. Yo recuerdo que antes en octubre en el salvador teníamos muchos los famosos vientos de octubre.
MC: Ok.
AVP: Y era un viento-- era tan interesante porque todo mundo en octubre se ponía los suéteres mas gruesos. Todos los labios reventados. Tenían que ponerse manteca de cacao que uno compra por 25 cinco centavos, un pedacito. Y después con el tiempo esos vientos ya no, no los recuerdo en mi vida mas. En mis años 20, 24. No habían esos vientos. Pero antes, cuando estaba pequeña, si. Era un frio enorme. Era fuerte. Pero eso si cambio. Eso si cambio mucho. Y ahora como no estoy allá en octubre, no se si están los vientos o no. Pero si recuerdo que siempre El Salvador también a tenido problemas de sequia en donde solamente llueve de mayo hasta noviembre, abecés octubre. Ya no llueve en noviembre. Abecés una o dos llovidas en noviembre y ya no mas. Y eso siempre a sido bien particular. Era clarito. Primera lluvia de mayo y termine en octubre o noviembre. Y eso no se como a cambiado porque ya son muchos años que estoy aquí. No tengo tanto tiempo allá para ver si eso esta ahí o no o a cambiado.
MC: Si. Y yo me imagino que, en esos tiempos, eso la afecta mucho. Como El Salvador es un lugar donde hay mucha milpa. ¿Verdad? Y me imagino que eso afecto mucho a los trabajadores en la milpa.
SVP: Aja.
MC: Que están cosechando.
SVP: Claro. Si hay sequia no van a producir tanto maíz. La base principal es maíz y frijoles. Entonces, si hay una sequia, no llueve no hay frijoles, no hay maíz, que va comer la gente?
MC: Claro.
SVP: Si. Es critico.
MC: Claro. Y tu crees, o como piensas que tu crees, que eso ha cambiado en los últimos años en El Salvador. ¿Todavía están teniendo experiencia con terremotos y huracanes, como vez eso?
SVP: Bueno, afortunadamente, yo se que tiembla porque yo puedo ver en los medios sociales. ¡Todo el mundo temblor! Todos están bien. Pero no habido un terremoto grande como en el de 2001, por ejemplo. No a pasado algo tan fuerte por ahora. Sigue temblando lo cuales esta bien porque esa energía se necesita de sacar para que no haya un terremoto grande. Entonces, los temblores medianos y pequeños son necesarios, pero no habido uno tan grande, tampoco un huracán tan grande. Sin embargo, si ha habido inundaciones y tormentas o temporales. Pero no un huracán tan grande como ese.
MC: Claro. Y todo eso afecta las comunidades, especialmente las comunidades locales, pequeñas. Que es tu opinión. ¿Tu crees que es una razón que la gente se a mudado de El Salvador?
SVP: Claro. Si. Si. Yo recuerdo que después de los huracanes, mucha gente inmigro. Hay, ¿no puedo recordar cual fue el este, que fue el huracán Mitch, probablemente? Oh, había otra que mucha gente se vino a los Estados Unidos por eso. De echo, muchos les dieron el TPS. El temporal employment status. Les dieron TPS si ellos emigraron en los tiempos de estos desastres naturales, esta gente que se vino en ese tiempo fue incluida en este programa TPS con inmigración. Porque muchos emigraron debido a los desastres naturales y los terremotos también.
MC: Wow.
SVP: Eso beneficiaron del TPS por haber ido en ese tiempo de, como te digo. Si alguien perdió su negocio, de donde va empezar? El gobierno no le va dar nada. Y claro, la familia de los Estados Unidos ayuda. Pero, es casi imposible poder levantar un negocio teniendo uno o dos miembros que te ayudan solamente.
MC: Claro. Tu piensas que incluso a los Estados Unidos, la gente se mudo a otros países- SVP: --Si. Si.
MC: -- Como, no se, ¿Honduras, Guatemala o México?
SVP: Si. Si. Ok, so, Centroamérica no mucho porque todo Centroamérica esta como en misma posición [riza]. Y pasamos por Honduras y Guatemala y México para la gente que quiere llegar finalmente a Estados Unidos. Pero mucha gente se fue para Italia. Mucha gente se ha ido a España. No se que otros países, pero e conocido mucha gente que-- mi hermana por ejemplo esta en Italia.
MC: Si. Es interesante porque yo-- es algo nuevo para mi. Yo no sabia que le gente se fue a esos países.
SVP: Si.
MC: ¿Que es esa conexión? ¿Porque era tan popular que la gente se iba a Italia o España?
SVP: Yo creo que era la forma de entrar al país. No era tan estricta. No se necesita una visa. O si les dan visa, no estoy segura, pero si les dan visa, lo requisitos para obtener una visa son mucho mas fáciles y accesibles que una visa en Estados Unidos.
MC: Claro.
SVP: O económicamente es mas fácil irse a Italia. Tal vez el boleto, no se si el boleto sea mas barato, pero creo que le entrada a esos países es mucho mas fácil que Estados Unidos, por ejemplo.
MC: Claro. Si. Bueno. Y quiero hablar un poquito, Soraya, sobre-- hablamos un poquito sobre la guerra civil. Eso paso en 1979 a mil 1992.
SVP: Hasta los 90s. Mhm.
MC: ¿Tu viviste sobre, un parte de eso, me imagino?
SVP: Si. Si. Si.
MC: ¿Cuantos años tenias y que recuerdas de ese tiempo?
SVP: Lo que mas recuerdo fue el final. En los 90, 92. Ya tenia yo, ¿que 15 años? Tal vez. Recuerdo cuando estábamos bien chiquititas. Pero ejemplo, te conté que íbamos a la casa de mi abuelita y pasábamos entre la casa de mi mama y mi abuelita. En Molineros yo recuerdo muchas veces que era una guerra civil. Estaba el lado del ejercito militar y los guerrilleros. Y yo me acuerdo que en la comunidad de mi abuelita abecés llegaban los guerrilleros. Y todo el mundo salían corriendo a esconderse porque teníamos miedo. Primero porque la guerrilla llegaba y reclutaba a todos los jovencitos, hombres y mujeres. Te guste o no te gusta te vas a unir a la guerrilla. Y después llegaban los soldados a reclutar a los jóvenes. Solamente hombres, pero reclutaban. Entonces, la mayoría de los jóvenes lo que hacían era esconderse porque no querían ni unirse ni a un bando ni al otro. Cada quien quería estar con sus familias. Yo acuerdo que estábamos bien chiquititas y hubo una vez que si recuerdo muy bien. Llegaron los guerrillos y pusieren una bancarta en la, en la casa principal. En la avenida principal donde esta la casa de mi abuelita, solo pusieron en la casa de mi abuelita, y decía el FMLN no se, no recuerdo que decía. Pero yo recuerdo que estábamos con mi primo. Mi primo nos puso todos en el cuarto. Aquí vamos a estar. Todos tranquilitos y los guerrilleros fue-- pasaron al patio a tomar agua. Estábamos como escondidos, ¿no? Esperando que se vayan. Y eso era terrible porque los guerrilleros se iban y después llegaba el ejercito. ¿Que estaban haciendo aquí? Ustedes los apoyan. Ustedes les dan comida. Y realmente los guerrilleros obligaron a la gente comida también. Entonces era—no queríamos apoyar ni uno ni al otro. Pero nos encontrábamos en medio de los dos bandos por accidente, coincidencia. Y recuerdo esa experiencia. Recuerdo muchas veces cuando mi familia iba hablar que fulano de tal desapareció. Dicen que se lo llevo la guerrilla. Otros dicen que el se unió a la guerrilla. Y pasaron años y años y muchos amigos de mi mama nunca los encontraron. Sus cuerpos, no se supo nada que paso. No se supo.
MC: Desaparecieron.
SVP: Desaparecieron. Había una historia que mi mama siempre contaba y me, siempre me la imagino que este amigo a la media noche, se tuvo que esconder porque llego el gobierno, los militares, buscándolo. Y el se subió a un palo y paso toda la noche subido en un árbol.
MC: Escondiéndose.
SVP: Escondiéndose. Esperando que se fueran para poder salir, por ejemplo. Eso es cuando estaba chiquita. Después, en los en, entre los nueve y quince años de mi vida recuerdo que, si había muchos problemas en cuanto, sabotearon la planta eléctrica. Entonces, de arrepiente no vamos a tener electricidad por días. O, quemaron un bus en forma de protesta. Entonces no vamos a tener transporte. Hubo una gran matanza que se llama La Matanza del Mozote donde el gobierno fue y mato comunidades enteras. Una comunidad, por ejemplo.
MC: ¿Con niños y mujeres?
SVP: Todos. Todos. Todos. Yo no recuerdo esa noticia. Yo me di cuenta y leí de eso cuando era mas adulta. Pues yo no recuerdo eso estar en las noticias porque mi mama me hablaba o me contaba eso y yo, nunca. Era como trataban de protegernos de ese tipo de historias. Eso, fue pequeña, entonces yo no me acuerdo bien que pasó en esos años. Sabíamos que había guerra. Oíamos. Le veíamos. De repente no va ver luz por una semana, por ejemplo. No hay electricidad. Lo que recuerdo también fue-- o y recuerdo una vez cuando íbamos a la casa de mi abuelita y pasábamos por esta calle, un callejón. Y recuerdo que iba mi primo que es, era adulto, y mi mama, mas o menos de la misma edad. Mi abuelita. O, íbamos al entierro a mi bis abuelito y recuerdo que íbamos caminando y recuerdo que todos nos dijeron, cierren los ojos. Y íbamos caminando. Yo cerré los ojos y yo recuerdo que mi primo me agarro y yo cerré. Fui honesta. Pero mis dos hermanas no cerraron los ojos. Porque claro, tenían curiosidad. Y una vio el cuerpo en un lado y la otra fue la cabeza de este cuerpo en el otro lado. Entonces, ella si tienen ese recuerdo fuerte. Pero yo, si cerré los ojos, pero ellas vieron eso. Después, me acuerdo en el 92 cuando fue la defensiva final que esa si nos toco cerca porque nuestra casa estaba como a diez minutos de la fuerza armada. De donde esta todo de la fuerza armada, ¿no? Y esa fue la final. Me recuerdo que estábamos en la calle jugando y ya oíamos disparos. Y las noticias empezaba decir que todos teníamos que estarnos en la casa. Quedarnos ahí. Y recuerdo que, pues, pusimos el radio y nos dimos cuenta algo esta pasando. Y empezaron a decir que ya la guerrilla había atacado esta zona. Y la guerrilla iba ganando. Y el punto de ellos era tomar la fuerza armada. Entonces para eso tenían que pasar por mi casa para la fuerza armada. Antes de eso tenían que pasar por la casa de mi mejor amiga. Entonces, mi mejor amiga me llamo que en su colonia que esta tres minutos, cinco minutos de mi casa, la guerrilla estaba caminando casa por casa por casa para avanzar. Entonces, estaban las casas están pegaditas, ¿no?
MC: Si. Mhm.
SVP: Entonces estaban abriendo hoyos en las paredes para avanzar por dentro de las casas. Y recuerdo que una de las noches cayo una llamada a mi casa. Y yo conteste y ellos me dijeron que eran los del FMLN, la guerrilla. Que teníamos que desocupar la casa en ese momento porque ellos la iban a usar. Yo tire el teléfono. Yo no podía hablar. Estaba como, sentí el agua caliente que corría por todo mi cuerpo. Y todos me decían: ¿Qué, que, que? Yo no podía hablar. No quería decirle porque iba dar miedo. Pero al mismo tiempo yo estaba llorando. Tenemos que irnos de aquí ya. Y recuerdo que esa noche nos fuimos a dormir en la casa de vecino porque lo que pasaba es que mi casa era la ultima casa. Iba ser la primera casa de ser atacada para poder avanzar por las otras casas. No fuimos a dormir en casa del vecino y a la media noche llegaron a disparar increíblemente como nunca había oído yo. Tan cerca las balas. Y se fueron y no paso nada.
MC: ¿En cuando paso eso, adonde se fueron? ¿Se fueron de la casa? ¿En donde se fueron?
SVP: Si. Si. Si. Nos fuimos. Pero antes de todo eso llego un carro. Lo abandonaron en frente de mi casa. Era un jeep abandonado. Bueno, estaba como una cuadra de mi casa y después lo manejaron enfrente de mi casa. El jeep estaba lleno de armas. Y creo que la idea era que la gente tomara las armas y se uniera a la guerrilla, ¿no? Pero lo que paso fue que la gente se robo las armas que con el tiempo usaron las armas para ser actos criminales. Entonces las pandillas básicamente usaron todas esas armas por decir algo. Eso fue uno. El otro fue que había- en mi casa estaban construyendo una calle nueva, entonces del gobierno había una casita con miles de herramientas de construcción. La guerrilla llego allá y le dijo al vigilante con la pistola, ¿no? Nos tienen que prestar las pala, piocha, todo para ir. Lo vamos a usar y lo vamos a traer en la mañana. Se lo llevaron en la media noche supuestamente era para abrir tumbas y enterrar a los muertos. Y a las cuatro de la mañana regresaron todito. Ósea, no robaron a la gente, pero si nos atemorizaban, ¿no? Lo regresaron todo. No se robaron nada. Entonces, después de cinco o, creo que duro siete días todo, pero después de tres días, nos fuimos de la colonia. Nos tuvimos que ir y nos fuimos a casa de una tía que vivía en una, en otra ciudad. Pero donde no estaba pasando nada porque estaba pasando mas que todo, nuestra comunidad porque iban atacar la fuerza armada. Nos fuimos para donde mi tía pasamos ahí unos cinco o seis días. No recuerdo muy bien.
MC: Si.
SVP: Y después regresamos a la casa ya cuando todo había acabado. Pero en eso podíamos ver que habían quemado la fabrica, unas de las fabricas mas grandes de San Salvador – de El Salvador. Se llama la Diana. Y lo podríamos que esta el otro lado de la cuidad. Podíamos ver hasta el otro lado el humo. Era un chaos total.
MC: Wow. ¿Y esa casa, era donde tu creciste?
SVP: Aja. Si.
MC: ¿La misma casa?
SVP: Si. La misma casa donde yo crecí. Y vivía por, estuvimos ahí por mas de 28 años. Bueno, todavía mi mama tiene la casa.
MC: ¿Sí? ¿Todavía?
SVP: [riza]
MC: Wow.
SVP: Entonces ella a tenido esta casa por 45 años. [riza]
MC: Wow. Que historia y que miedo.
SVP: Si. Ahora que recuerdo vivíamos en miedo. [riza]
MC: No me puedo imaginar eso.
SVP: Si.
MC: Bueno, cambiando un poquito el tema, después de todo eso, como usted, ¿como tu no se. ¿Como llegaste a los Estados Unidos? ¿O qué paso después de todo eso?
SVP: Si. Entonces después de todo eso, en 2001 fue el año del terremoto. Mhm. Y bueno hay esta asociación que se llama Cuerpo de Paz y mi esposo es de Kansas City originalmente y el se fue a El Salvador como Cuerpo de Paz. Eso es interesante porque primero el viaje de el tenia que salir en Septiembre pero por las- se cayeron la torres gemelas cuando paso ese tentado. Su viaje se tubo que retrasar—
MC: Posponer.
SVP: Mhm. Llego mucho mas después de lo que habían pensado. Ese terremoto había pasado en enero. El llego en noviembre, pero la carretera principal todavía estaba cerrada. La panamericana que corre por todo sur américa y Centroamérica. Estaba cerrada por el terremoto. Entonces, conocí a mi esposo una vez que estábamos manejando y mi prima estaba manejando y todos mis otros primos, hermanos, amigos, estábamos en el pickup. En una troca como les dicen los mexicanos. [riza] Estábamos atrás todos y mi esposo estaba pidiendo un ride. Quería que alguien lo llevara. Y mi primo paro y lo subimos ahí. Pero el vivía en, con otro primo como estaba en capacitación. El vivía allá. Lo conocía si y lo conocí como voluntario de paz. Mientras era voluntario fuimos novios por dos años y nos casamos. Y por eso yo me vine a Estados Unidos. Pero yo pienso también que, si yo no me hubiera casado con el, yo me hubiera venido de todas maneras. De alguna manera hubiera llegado a Estados Unidos o otro país porque la situación era terrible en El Salvador.
MC: ¿Por lo mismo?
SVP: Mhm.
MC: ¿De todo?
SVP: De todo. Lo que te e contado. [riza]
MC: Wow.
SVP: Si. Si.
MC: Entonces, que linda historia como conoció su esposo. ¿Eso paso en 2001?
SVP: En el 2001 nos conocimos. Nos casamos en el 2004 y llegue aquí en el 2004 cuando tenia 28 años.
MC: ¿28 años?
SVP: Aja. Y tuve que aprender ingles porque yo no sabia- bueno, mientras fuimos novios tomé clases de ingles todos los días por dos horas. Todos días. Y yo pensaba que yo sabia un montón. [riza] Y yo llegue aquí y alguien me preguntaba algo y yo solo con la cabeza decía si o decía no. No tenia ni voz. No quería ni usar mi voz. Y cualquier cosa yo iba responderle a mi esposo en español. Mi esposo iba traducir. Y después de un mes, mi esposo dice yo estoy cansado de estar traduciendo. Esto no puede pasar. Tiene que hablar ingles. ¡Y yo no puedo! ¡No puedo! [riza]
MC: ¿Entonces cuando conoció a su esposo, en ese tiempo, no sabias ingles?
SVP: ¡No!
MC: El sabia un poquito de español?
SVP: ¡Si! Si. Si. Y en su capacitación. En su capacitación que ellos reciben en el Cuerpo de Paz lo cual es genial para cualquier persona que quiera aprender español. La capacitación de Cuerpo de Paz es lo mejor. Así el aprendió. Pero el también tenia maestros, ósea, yo. Su maestra privada. [riza] Pero también mi familia. Todo el tiempo le estamos enseñado. Y el quería aprender español. Y yo siempre quise aprender ingles. Y podía, pero no era la realidad como yo pensaba que eso era. No. Es difícil. [riza]
MC: ¿Como era ese proceso para ti? ¿Se casaron en El Salvador y después se mudo y como fue ese proceso de inmigración? ¿Tuvo que agarrar su visa?
SVP: Si.
MC: ¿Me puede contar un poco?
SVP: Afortunadamente nosotros teníamos mi familia y yo teníamos visa de turistas. Entonces yo podía entrar al país como turista. Entonces, venimos aquí para pasar tiempo con su familia y decidimos no, no vale la pena regresar al El Salvador, solicitar los papeles allá y esperar dos años. Mejor nos quedamos aquí en los Estados Unidos. Va ser mas fácil. Fui a vivir a Kansas City por seis meses. Bueno no. Vivimos allá por un año. Y mientras tanto, pues esperando los papeles y yo empecé dar clases privadas de español. Y, mi esposo trabajaba como mantenimiento en un edificio. Y así el solicito para una beca para poder estudiar. Y recibió una beca aquí en Carolina del Norte. Y por eso no venimos para acá para Carolina del Norte. Pero el proceso es duro. Es costoso. Esta uno en incertidumbre. Porque el no podía comprarme seguro medico si no tener un numero de seguro social, por ejemplo. Y exactamente no tengo seguro social, no tengo seguro medico, y me enfermo y tengo que ir—tuve que ir al hospital. Y después esta gran cuente, ¿no? Que uno tiene que pagar. Aparte de todo es, en Kansas City no había muchos latinos allá. Entonces yo solamente pasaba tiempo con gente que hablaba español-en ingles. Y era bueno porque aprendía un montón, pero estaba, estaba deprimiéndome. Como no hablan mi idioma. No hay música. No hay comida que me gusta. No esta mi familia. No están mis amigos. La familia de mi esposo me trato bien. Y yo era la reina. Me trataban súper bien. Querían hacerme feliz, pero me hacia falta lo que yo estaba acostumbrada, ¿no?
MC: Claro.
SVP: Y después de eso aun que uno es un adulto, un profesional, yo tengo una carrera, pero porque tengo un acento fuerte en ingles, todavía la gente piensa que uno no es tan inteligente porque no hablo ni ingles bien o no entiende tal palabra uno no es inteligente. Pero si es. Lo que pasa es que aprender lenguas no es fácil. [riza]
MC: Claro que no.
SVP: Entonces-- y tratan como un niño. Te hablan como un niño pequeño.
MC: O te hablan mas despacio.
SVP: O te gritan. Bueno no, yo escucho bien pero no puedo entender. Entonces, es todas esas cosas son como de repente uno dice, yo no quiero estar aquí. Ya me quiero ir a mi casa. Pero después con el tiempo, uno se acostumbra. Aprende. Sabe no, este es mi casa hoy.
MC: Si. Y eso, cuando usted se mudo aquí en Carolina del Norte, ¿que año fue eso?
SVP: En el 2004. No. No. No. El 2005 a Carolina del Norte.
MC: Y es porque su esposo es el que agarro –
SVP: --Una beca en la universidad primero y bueno la idea era que nosotros tenemos familia en Maryland y que yo iba estar mas cerca que la familia, pero todavía esta lejos entonces nunca visite a nadie allá. Empecé trabajar aquí mientras yo podía ser residente en Carolina del Norte y empecé a solicitar una beca para mi para poder estudiar también porque realmente yo siempre quería ser, quería enseñar. Yo siempre e sido una educadora. Pero me di cuenta que si uno no tiene educación es difícil encontrar un trabajo estable y hacer lo que te gusta. Me dieron una beca al final pude hacer una – me dieron como una asistencia y pude trabajar y estudiar y también fuimos los dos a la Universidad Estatal de Carolina del Norte.
MC: ¿NC State?
SVP: NC State. Si.
MC: Que bueno. ¿Que estudio ahí?
SVP: Saque una maestría en artes. Para enseñar-- poder enseñar español.
MC: Que bueno. Y es lo que esta haciendo ahorita, ¿verdad?
SVP: Si. Es lo que hago hoy, bueno tengo algunos trabajos. Soy como tu, que me gusta ser de todo. Si hay algo que quiero hacer, lo hago. Y me encanta. Entonces, si. Enseño español en esta universidad Lenoir Rhyne. Es una universidad privada. Pequeña. Y los estudiantes, todo es personalizado. Antes enseñe en la Universidad Estatal, también trabaje como profesora de español allá por unos años antes de irnos al Cuerpo de Paz. Y cuando regresamos del Cuerpo de Paz me vine a trabajar a esta universidad.
MC: Si. Que bueno. Puedes hablar un poco de tu experiencia en el cuerpo de paz? Como fue eso porque tu también participaste.
SVP; ¡Si!
MC: ¿Que programa y cuando fue? ¿Me puede contar un poco de eso?
SVP: Entonces después de que me gradué de la universidad, trabajé allá en – me contrataron para trabajar como una instructora de español y cuando mi esposo era voluntario yo siempre quería trabajar. Me encantaba su trabajo y en El Salvador nos dimos cuenta que las mujeres no confían en un hombre tanto. Entonces, tenían pena de hablar con un hombre. Siempre pensamos ha de ser chévere como pareja, hacerlo como pareja. Porque los hombres pueden trabajar con los hombres, las mujeres con las mujeres o pueden experimentar que se puede trabajar hombre con mujer, mujer con hombre. Y siempre queríamos irnos al Cuerpo de Paz y bueno adoptamos una niña. Es mi sobrina que tenia 15 años y cuando ella se graduó de la escuela secundaria dijimos ok. Ella ya se puede ir. Nosotros también nos podemos ir. Nos fuimos al Cuerpo de Paz y no seleccionaron para ir a Panamá. Nos fuimos a Panamá y fuimos a vivir en una comunidad indígena. Bueno, Panamá es un país rico porque tienes el Canal y ganan millones diario. Pero los millones no llegan a las comunidades indígenas. Entonces, vivimos en una comunidad donde no había agua potable ni había electricidad. Teníamos que filtrar el agua. Teníamos que hacer todo en el día cuando había luz solar, ¿no? Nos fuimos a vivir allá por tres años y como siempre e estado de la educación y siempre me a gustado en el empoderamiento de mujeres. Creamos un grupo que se llamaba Universidad al Campo donde seleccionábamos jóvenes que querían ir a la universidad y los preparábamos para ir a la universidad. Los llevamos a conocer la universidad, a ver las carreras. Les dábamos clases de computación, clases de desarrollo profesional para que estén listos para ir allá. Y también en la casa damos clases a los niños. Teníamos una biblioteca. Los niños venían a la casa de nosotros y todos los días de cuatro a seis teníamos hasta 25 niños.
MC: ¡Wow!
SVP: Era intenso. Pero los niños eran, ósea, nos hacían, nos hicieron la vida feliz. Llegaban, aprendían a leer, escribir, aprender a relacionarse, a trabajar en equipo, liderazgo. Recibir un poco de amor y cariño porque en las comunidades indígenas no reciben un abrazo de nadie. No reciben un te quiero. No reciben eres bueno, inteligente. Nada. Entonces todo eso trabajamos con los jóvenes en el autoestima. El autoconfianza. Y mi esposo trabajaba en el área de agricultura que eso a sido siempre lo que el a hecho.
MC: Pues que bueno. Se escucha como una experiencia tan buena que ustedes estuvieron juntos.
SVP: ¡Si! Si. Y es otra de las que las parejas o sobreviven o se matan. [riza] Pero yo pienso encontramos apoyo mutuo. Porque, yo no se si pudiera haber hecho sola. Vivíamos en una comunidad aislada y es una comunidad dura en el sentido que otra vez porque son indígenas no reciben este, no tienen esa experiencia de decir gracias, por ejemplo. En la lengua de ellos no existe la palabra gracias entonces no saben como apreciar. Entonces uno siente que no lo quieren. Uno se siente que no caí bien. Ese tipo de cosa. Entonces fue bueno de tener un apoyo.
MC: Si. Pues que bueno. Este, quería preguntar también, ¿como llegaron aquí en Catawba County?
SVP: Aja.
MC: Que si estoy muy interesada en eso porque yo me mude aquí hace diez años.
SVP: Aja.
MC: Me mude aquí en 2012 y es muy diferente de nuestros países.
SVP: Si. Si.
MC: ¿Como fue eso y este, como a cambiado este lugar desde usted-- cuando llego usted?
SVP: Aja. No te voy a mentir que a sido- estoy sorprendida de vivir aquí porque esta comunidad es una comunidad súper pequeña. Es muy conservadora. Y hay gente buenísima, pero, aun que la gente es súper buena, todavía se puede sentir que te miran como una persona de afuera. No solamente porque me miro así con pelo negro, bajita, morena, pero solamente por--pero también, aunque la gente se mire blanca, para la gente que no es de aquí, siempre va ser una gente de afuera, ¿no? A mi me gusta mucho porque es un lugar donde tenemos una casa donde podemos tener un huerto que mi esposo le encanta. Es una casa, es una comunidad donde no hay trafico. Pero llegamos aquí porque mi esposo aplico, solicitó un trabajo como director de la Oficina de Extensión Cooperativa. Y le dieron el trabajo entonces yo vine con el. Fue causalidad yo apliqué, solicité esta universidad. Tuve la suerte que alguien se había ido y me contrataron. Yo no había- mi esposo viajo y vio la cuidad y por supuesto que los gustos de mi esposo y los míos son diferentes. Pero, abecés amas tanto tu pareja que le tienes que confiar. [riza]
MC: Claro.
SVP: Entonces, yo le confié y viniendo del Cuerpo de Paz y vivir en un área sin electricidad, sin agua, esto iba ser fácil, ¿no? Esto va ser la maravilla. No tenia miedo. Yo pensé, va funcionar. Nos vamos adaptar. Otra vez los salvadoreños súper resilentes y hacen lo que tienen que hacer. Vine aquí por primera vez- fue como un 12 de diciembre. Llegue a las 11:30 a Hickory porque tenia una entrevista de trabajo a las 12. [riza]
MC: ¡Wow!
SVP: Entonces, manejando directo a la universidad. Nunca había visto a la universidad. Nunca había visto Hickory. Nada. Y afortunadamente me dieron el trabajo y me encanta. La universidad me encanta. Siempre estar un área educativa, en un campus, con los estudiantes. Los estudiantes me rejuvenecen.
MC: Si.
SVP: Me dan una enejaría que necesito para vivir, sentirme feliz. Entonces me encanta. Pero otra vez, abecés el ambiente, puede ser como siempre sos una de afuera. No sos de aquí. Pero parte de eso, es fácil vivir aquí. Nunca hay trafico. Hay espacio. Nunca hay un problema de parqueo. Por ejemplo, mi hermana una vez le digo, te espero en el centro de convenciones. ¿Y ella me dice, donde me tengo que parquear? Yo le digo, en el centro de convenciones. Porque ella vive en Maryland y el centro de convenciones allá en Washington tiene que parquearse como tres cuadras y caminar y eso. ¡Y yo, no! Es fácil. Todo es fácil. Nunca hay problema de estacionamiento. Nada. Tenemos muchos amigos que e encontrado aquí que me hacen súper feliz y me gusta mucho el estilo de vida rural. Yo soy una persona de ciudad y extraño eso. Cuando voy a Raleigh o a Charlotte es como [emocionada]. Me encanta, pero también me encanta vivir pacíficamente. Tranquilamente.
MC: Si. Si. Es muy tranquilo y es también mi experiencia.
SVP: Aja.
MC: De venir y vivir en otros lugares, otros países. Pero si, aquí es muy tranquilo.
SVP: Si.
MC: La naturaleza también. Te quería preguntar también sobre tu trabajo. ¿También trabajas en el library? En la biblioteca. ¿Cual es tu posición ahí?
SVP: Se llama la posición, es como un library specialist. Una especialista. Pero, realmente lo que yo hago es, soy el enlace Latino entre la biblioteca y la comunidad latina. Mi trabajo es encontrar los recursos y dárselos a la gente. Entonces, es como soy la referencia de los latinos. ¿Donde hay un abogado? ¿Donde me puedo casar? En la biblioteca también creamos un programa que se llama Homework Helpers que es tutoría. Ves, la mayoría de los padres latinos que no hablan español. Sus hijos sufren las consecuencias, ¿no? Y les cuesta o les tarda un poquito mas en aprender y leer y escribir. Entonces es un recurso que los padres me dijeron. ¿Porque no ofrecen esto? Lo necesitamos. Y generalmente en este programa tenemos de 25 a 30 estudiantes que vienen a leer por treinta minutos. Y es comprobado que sus notas, su compresión, todo mejora. Solamente por venir y leer con un tutor. Los tutores son estudiantes de la escuela secundaria que necesitan servicio comunitaria. Horas de servicio comunitaria y provén entonces eso es una ayuda mutua. Y eso es lo que hago. Ofrecemos clases de ingles para los hispanohablantes. Programas que ahora por la pandemia no estamos ofreciendo muchos, pero siempre antes yo ofrecía un programa al mes. Entonces, aprendan como comer saludable. Aprenda a como hacer joyas o aritos. Aprenda como cuidar sus hijos emocionalmente. Un montón de talleras o talleres para empoderamiento de mujeres. También creamos un club de lectura en español donde hay como diez, once personas que participan. Leemos en español. Nos reunimos una ves al mes. ¿Que mas? Bueno y cosas así, ¿no?
MC: Si.
SVP: Ayudar a los latinos a encontrar esos recursos que ellos piensan que no existe o que no saben como conectarlos. Pues yo los conecto con las cosas de la comunidad.
MC: Si. Yo cuando me mudé aquí me sorprendí que si hay una populación de latinos aquí en el condado de Catawba.
SVP: ¡Si! Somos el 10% casi 11% de la comunidad. Mhm.
MC: Si. ¿Y tu trabajo con el-la comunidad latina, tu que piensas Soraya que son los recursos que necesitan mas? ¿Como que tipo de recursos necesitan los latinos que viven aquí en el condado?
SVP: Aja.
MC: O, ¿que son recursos que tu piensas que ellos buscan mas?
SVP: Que buscan mas. Ok. So, lo que buscan mas quieren aprender ingles. Todo el mundo quiere ayudar a sus hijos. No es que no quieran. Es que no pueden. Aun que yo, por ejemplo, que puedo hablar ingles, las formas de matemáticas que yo aprendí en mi país, aquí es diferente. La división. Como dividir números. Aquí el sistema es diferente que lo que es en El Salvador. Yo no podría ayudarle a mis hijos a dividir o a ensenarles a dividir, por ejemplo. Necesitaría ayuda de alguien mas porque los sistemas son diferentes. Entonces ellos quieren aprender ingles para ayudar a sus hijos. Aprender ingles para poder ir al doctor y no depender que sus hijos trabajen. Ellos necesitan mucha ayuda con inmigración. ¿Que deben de hacer? Los abogados de inmigración son- los costos son elevados que no todo el mundo puede pagar así. La inseguridad en cuanto a manejar sin licencia, eso ellos necesitan como que van hacer? Tienen que llevar sus hijos a la escuela, a las citas medicas. Ellos quieren cumplir con todo, pero, no tienen quien ayudarles encontrar ese tipo de cosas. Medicinas. Doctores que si no tienen seguro medico, donde pueden encontrar la atención que necesitan sin costarles un ojo de la cara, por ejemplo. ¿Que mas? Ayuda en cuanto a sus niños para tener excito en la escuela porque de verdad, no es que los padres no quieran ir a las reuniones. Solamente que no saben como. No saben que hacer. No haya entender cuando están explicando. Sus niños tienen que ser esto, esto y esto y ellos quieren ayudar, pero como no entendieron el mensaje no le van ayudar el niño. Entonces necesitan traductores que puedan ayudarles. Lo cual voy a ser honesta que ahora en el condado yo e visto mucha mas información que nunca en español y en ingles. Casi casi todo esta siendo hoy bilingüe. Voy a decir que el condado de Catawba esta haciendo un trabajo buenísimo en cuanto han tener gente por ejemplo con la pandemia. A tener la información en los dos idiomas. Educar a la gente en los dos idiomas. Porque mucha gente no es que no quiera, solamente que el mensaje no llega porque no esta en la lengua, ¿no? Y otra cosa también que yo siento que el condado esta haciendo un buen trabajo en recordar y enfocarse para quien es el mensaje. Es para gente que tiene educación o es para gente que no a tenido educación, pero todavía necesita entender este mensaje. Todos están haciendo mucho mas simple para que el mensaje llegue a la gente.
MC: Claro. Si. Claro. Y una ultima pregunta para ti. ¿Tu piensas que a crecido el numero de latinos aquí en al área? Tu crees que, que están viniendo mas, emigrando de otros países y si si piensas que si esta creciendo, ¿por qué?
SVP: Mhm. Yo la verdad que, yo me incluyo en ese numero de latinos que están viniendo porque yo recientemente hace siete años solamente. Lo que voy a hacer también es que e notado que mucha mas gente de visita a la biblioteca porque desde que hay un servicio en español mas grande y a crecido mas, ellos se comunican entre ellos. Y la gente llega me mandaron que aquí hablan español y vemos que esa comunidad esta creciendo en la biblioteca, por ejemplo. Porque se cuentan entre ellos. Se confían en la biblioteca. La gente sabe que iban encontrar algo confiable, seguro. Y entonces yo veo que esa población si a crecido mas y creo que la gente esta inmigrando por lo mismo. En nuestros países no hay trabajos. Hay muchos profesionales. Se están graduando de la universidad, la gente se gradúa en masas. Pero no encuentran un trabajo profesional o no encuentran un trabajo que pague lo suficiente para cubrir las necesidades de las familias, ¿no? Bueno la gente se viene por falta de trabaja. La gente se viene por problemas económicos, sociales, problemas de delincuencia. Cuanta gente tiene que salir porque están amenazados. Que, si no hacen esto o lo otro, lo van a matar a ellos y sus familias. Ósea, la gente sale por muchas cosas y, pero creo que la mayoría es porque la falta de oportunidades en nuestros países son grandes. No hay muchas oportunidades.
MC: Claro. Si. Yo también veo eso. En mi país, en México y mucha gente que yo e hablado es mucho de lo mismo.
SVP: Aja.
MC: Entonces, bueno muchas gracias—
SVP: No, gracias.
MC: Son todas las preguntas que tengo ahorita. No se si quiere decir otra cosa o unas preguntas--
SVP: -- No. Yo pienso que podríamos hablar mucho mas, pero pienso que [riza] nos vamos aburrir.
MC: [riza] Si.
SVP: Pero, pero me encanta este proyecto que están haciendo porque me da curiosidad cuando estas primeras, segundas generaciones de Carolina del Norte puedan escuchar lo que fuimos nosotros, se van a dar cuenta de- es parte de la historia, ¿no?
MC: Claro.
SVP: Que tal vez no van a encontrar en un libro escrito, pero son historias que cada individuo vive.
MC: Claro. Son experiencias de la gente que-- experiencias vividas.
SVP: Mhm. De la vida normal. Real. Cotidiana.
MC: Y es muy importante. Bueno, pues muchas gracias. Me dio mucho gusto conocerte y hablarte--
SVP: --Igualmente--
MC: -- y escuchar tu historia.
SVP: Igualmente. Gracias.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-1000 -- Valdez Place, Soraya.
Description
An account of the resource
Soraya Valdez Place is a Spanish Professor at Lenoir Rhyne University and the Community Outreach Specialist for the Catawba County Library system in Hickory, North Carolina. She is originally from San Salvador, El Salvador and first moved to the United States in 2004. Soraya tells the story of her life and explains what growing up was like for her in El Salvador. She reflects on the struggles she and her family faced and touches on the violence, natural disasters, and the rampant civil war that plagued her country. She shares the story of moving to the United States for the first time and the challenges of learning English and eventually, how she came to live in North Carolina. She also shares her experience of her time in the Peace Corp and serving abroad with her husband. Soraya speaks on the differences between life in North Carolina, specifically Catawba County, and life back in her home of El Salvador. Lastly, she touches on her work in Catawba County as a Spanish professor and a Community Outreach Specialist, serving as a bridge for the Spanish-speaking community. Soraya closes the interview by telling me about the different issues the Latinx community faces in Catawba County and her work to address these issues by creating workshops and classes through the local library system.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2022-02-10
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
R1000_Audio.mp3
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29184">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/6219df946d27a704b4a298a1145a56af.mp3
95e887bd1c510ba1fc0990a3e0b2b9bc
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/64a9c64f072b0f78bb0c12883cdb6860.pdf
5e6ab74101fc7cd557797be95194737e
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0999
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
Fecha
2022-03-28
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Pagnini-Ibarra, Mónica.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Educators
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Maracay -- Aragua -- Venezuela
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Hickory -- Catawba County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-67.59260559082031 10.253228187561035),0000,1;POINT(-81.3379898071289 35.73231506347656),2015,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Carlton, Marisa.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Spanish
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Monica Pagnini-Ibarra is a former business owner and family lawyer from Maracay, Venezuela and currently serves as the Client Services Advocate at El Centro Latino in Hickory, North Carolina. Monica begins the interview by sharing what life was like for her and her family living in Maracay, Venezuela and recounts her favorite childhood memories. She opens up about the political insecurities, violence, and turmoil she and her family faced in recent years in Venezuela. Mónica goes in depth about the political insecurity she experienced, the threats she received for her partaking in legal protests, and how those threats ultimately led her to flee her native country in 2015. Mónica also tells me about the successful business she started in Venezuela and her steps to becoming a family lawyer and serving in tribunal courts. She then shares what life was like for her in North Carolina after fleeing her country and explains the challenges she faced starting a new life here. Mónica discusses her current role at El Centro Latino and describes the workshops and special events she helps create for the community. She closes the interview by speaking on the resources she believes are most needed by the Spanish-speaking community and what she has planned next.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Mónica Pagnini-Ibarra by Marisa Carlton, 28 March 2022, R-0999, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29181
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Activism; Community and social services and programs; Labor and employment; Language and communication; War and violence
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Marisa Carlton: Ok. Hola, me llamo Marisa Carlton. Estoy aquí con Mónica en El Centro Latino en Hickory, North Carolina. Le vamos hacer unas preguntas sobre su vida y su historia y el trabajo que hace ella ahorita. Mónica gracias por estar aquí conmigo. Quiero comenzar un poco, no, no conozco mucho de ti--
Mónica Pagnini-Ibarra: --ok--
MC: Entonces, cuéntame un poquito sobre ti. ¿De donde eres? ¿Donde naciste? Y cuéntame un poco del lugar.
MPI: Ok. Gracias por invitarme a participar en esta entrevista. Y pues yo soy venezolana. Nací en Venezuela en Maracay estado de Aragua. La cuidad jardín del país. Es la zona central del país y bueno, siempre me mantuve ahí en esa área. Desde-- ahí crecí y estudié. Me forme como profesional. Y también nació mi hijo. En esa ciudad, aunque pues si por supuesto tuve la oportunidad de recorrer otras partes del país. Te puedo decír que era como de las mas bonitas o la mas agradable en clima, en su gente. La gente en Venezuela en línea general es súper amable. Como que siempre estamos de buen humor. No importa lo que este pasando siempre sacamos como un chiste o una broma, ósea así que este muy mala la situación, de una manera vas a Venezuela y la pasas bien. Feliz. Y así es lugar donde crecí. Un poquito, sos sabes, con todos los altivados que tiene pues un país o un pueblo, pero en línea general es un lugar bonito con naturaleza bonita. Una tierra agradable. Un clima agradable. Y por supuesto una gente bien cordial siempre.
MC: Claro que si. ¿Y que parte del estado esta su, la cuidad donde creció?
MPI: ¿En que parte del estado? Estamos en la zona central en el estado Aragua. Maracay es la capital del estado de Aragua y esta en la zona central del país. Mas o menos como a unos, que una hora a treinta minutos a la capital Caracas.
MC: Ok. ¿Y como era la vida para ti y tu familia viviendo y creciendo en Venezuela?
MPI: Pues, yo tuve familia relativamente normal. [riza] Fue una vida, fue una vida sencilla. No, nosotros no teníamos una posición económica alta. Pero, vivíamos cómodamente. Tuvimos—solamente somos dos hermanas. Tuvimos la oportunidad de ir a la escuela, de ir a la universidad. Yo particularmente tuve la oportunidad de crear mi propio negocio. Entonces, si. Fue-- tuvimos una buena vida. Realmente, una familia de muchos valores y numerosa porque en Venezuela tenemos la oportunidad de saber--Tienes mama, papa, y también tus abuelos, los tíos, los primos. Entonces, como que siempre estas en contacto con toda la familia. A diferencia de aquí que ahora no tengo ese contacto cercano, ¿no? Pero si. Ósea, si se crece así. Crecí así en familia. Una familia con valores y que tuve la oportunidad de aprovechar lo que me brindaron a lo largo de mi vida.
MC: Claro. ¿Y tus papas de que se dedicaban?
MPI: Mi mama, mi mama siempre a trabajado en un colegio. Yo vengo du una familia de educadores. [riza] Tengo una hermana de mi mama también educador, unas tías, su esposa, ósea, mi mama también siempre trabajo en el colegio. Ella trabajaba en el área de orientación. Siempre trabajando con adolescentes. Y mi papa trabajaba en una empresa y el viajaba bastante, pero a pesar que viajaba siempre estaba en la casa. Ósea, el viajaba durante su horario de trabajo. No era que si iba por días. No. El siempre estaba, ¿como podría decirte que era su cargo? Estaba-- es como mantenía conexión con dos sucursales de la empresa. Entonces, siempre estaba en comunicación y tenia que viajar común trabajaba en el área administrativa. Realmente el cargo exacto, no me acuerdo.
MC: Esta bien. [riza] Y bueno, pensando un poquito mas en tu infancia. ¿Que fueron tus recuerdos mas bonitos creciendo con tu familia ahí en Venezuela?
MPI: Las reuniones familiares. Eso si me acuerdo claramente. Yo viví, yo crecí entre dos culturas. Ente la venezolana y la italiana porque mi papa era italiano y mis abuelos. Entonces, las reuniones familiares siempre. Por cualquier motivo. Por un cumpleaños. Sobre todo, navidad en la época de diciembre nos reuníamos. En la, con mi abuela, con mi mama y con mis nonos que son mis abuelos paternos. Entonces, era, no era fiesta, pero si una reunión para sentarse, comer, compartir, abrir los regalos. Era súper estupendo para los niños sobre todo porque tenias expectativas de que el niño Jesús te tenia tu regalo. Y es un recuerdo bien bonito que tengo. Las playas teníamos una casa en la playa y en Maracay esta aproximadamente 45 minutos o una hora de la costa de Ocumare de la Costa. Unas playas bellísimas que extraño a montón. Y si, compartir. Vivimos mucho tiempo en la playa. Mucho. Casi que los fines mis papas nos llevaban casi todos los fines de semana y eso es algo que extraño y algo que era un recuerdo que tengo siempre.
MC: Si. Que bueno. Y también quería preguntarle, como era, experimentaron ahí tu familia y tu personalmente, ¿experimentaron como situaciones de inseguridad política? Yo se que en Venezuela siempre ávido mucha inseguridad política, económica. ¿Experimentaron algo así?
MPI: Cuando yo era niña y adolescente no. Pero desde que Hugo Chávez Frías tomo el cargo de presidente de la republica en Venezuela, el país definitivamente fue en decadencia. Todo lo que te digo, todo lo que te acabo de comentar fue como que antes de esa fecha. Del año 1999 para acá es total una historia distinta. Y si. Comenzó yo creo que no, no hay familia en Venezuela que te diga que a estado absenta de vivir alguna situación de inseguridad. Ya bien sea por inseguridad social, económica. Económicamente nos afecto todos. Y definitivamente políticamente. En mi caso particular unas de las razonas por las cuales, o la razón por la cual yo deje mi país es por estas inseguridades y situación política que se presento. Yo, como te comenté antes, tuve la oportunidad de ir a la universidad. Yo me forme del área de leyes. Soy abogado. Y el gobierno de Venezue-- el gobierno de Hugo Chávez, empezó con expropiaciones. Las personas por supuesto empezaron-- el pueblo se levanto en contra del gobierno. En muchas oportunidades. Y trataron como consecuencia que se comenzaron esa persecución política. En contra de personas que, aunque no era muy política, porque yo no me considero nunca que estuve ahí ni nunca política estando para ello. Pero, estuve muy involucrada con el proceso electorales y con la defensa de personas que estaban siendo aprendida por la policía o por la guardia nacional. Solamente porque estaban ejerciendo su derecho a manifestar en contra del gobierno. Entonces, eso comenzó, o desencargo en mi caso particular una persecución política. Yo tenia mi empresa por ahí tuve muchas situaciones también relacionadas con la política. Aunque mi empresa no era política, era de servicios. Y cuando ya me involucré mas en el ámbito legal, todo dio un vuelto de 360 grados. En mi contra. El gobierno en mi contra. Y entonces empezó, no solamente la, los-- algún grupo que se genero allá cuando Hugo Chávez tomo el poder que se llama colectivos. No se si has escuchado de ellos. Estos son grupo armados, son civiles pero un grupo armado que siempre va disolver las manifestaciones que se hace en contra del gobierno. Por supuesto ellos matan, secuestran personas, desaparecen personas. Y otro van conjuntamente con la policía con la guarda nacional que, aunque son gentes que deberían protegernos, a nosotros como sociedad como pueblo, siempre están en contra y no te digo que todos. Algunos no están en contra, pero uno esta en contra, unos están en contra del pueblo, pero ellos no pueden hacer nada porque forman parte de ese cuerpo. Entonces, empezaron amenaces, persecuciones y eso me obligo porque yo recién había sido mama. Estaba mi bebe chiquitico. Y ya empezaron como que, esas agresiones en contra de mi hijo. Hacerle, dirigidas en contra de mi hijo. Amenazas. Y me amenazaron en tribunales. Yo no podía- yo estaba vetada no podía ir a defender a nadie. En la policía era un súper mal trato. Cuando yo iba en defensa de una persona. Entonces, realmente, nada. Me toco como que empacar todo en una maleta y salir de mi país. [emotional, tears]
MC: Mhm. Explícame un poquito mas, porque paso eso y porque en contra de ti?
MPI: Ok. Cuando te manifiestan en contra del gobierno en Venezuela, eres traidora a la patria. Eso es lo que ellos establecen. Entonces, muchas personas, aunque yo me forme en área de familia, yo trabaje--yo me forme como abogada y podía trabajar en distintas áreas, pero me fui para el área de familia. Era una parte que me gustaba mucho y no tenia nada que ver con política ni con--[riza]. Pero, al ser yo parte también de manifestaciones, porque si. Yo fui. Manifesté. Así, mi derecho a expresar mi opinión contra el gobierno con lo que estaba pasando, me vi muy de cerca con las personas que simplemente porque tenían un cartel y dijo no estoy de acuerdo con equis se la llevan presa. A muchos en una oportunidad estuve en una manifestación donde los colectivos pasaron disparando y mataron a dos personas. Entonces, tu ves ahí como todos estamos, no importa el nivel social [emotional, tears] ni el nivel de, ósea el nivel social o el nivel socioeconómica que tenias, todos estábamos en el mismo lugar. Y yo empecé entonces a ofrecer mis servicios a manera gratuita. Yo me iba defender a las personas porque efectivamente nuestra constitución establece que tenemos derecho a manifestar. Básicamente, por supuesto. Y era lo que estábamos haciendo. Cuando yo empiezo hacer eso, ya el gobierno me indica a mi como traidora a la patria. Yo estaba haciendo algo totalmente en contra de lo que el gobierno actual califica como aceptable. De forma que en Venezuela se estableció un gobierno debajo la figura democrática pero totalmente socialista, dictatorial a este punto. Entonces, el hecho de yo ir y defender a las personas, eso genero un descontento por parte de del gobierno local donde veían efectivamente yo me estaba manifestando en contra. Y que yo estaba haciendo algo que ellos califican como ilegal. Entonces la manera de ellos es hacer presión para estas personas o para quienes nos manifestamos o quienes vamos y defendemos es simplemente desaparecernos. Pero antes de desaparecernos, ellos empiezan amenazar porque muchos, muchos colegas, muchos que estaban en esa línea simplemente se fueron del país o decidieron no voy a seguir porque corre peligro en mi vida, corre peligro en la vida de mi familia. Pero yo siempre e sido un poquito terca y yo me mantuve. Y me mantuve. Y te digo cuando, cuando estaba yo solita, de alguna manera no me importaba porque pues, bueno, me iba pasar algo a mi. También yo tenia a mi mama, mi papa, mi hermana, pero era como mas sencillo, ¿no? Estaba yo sola. Después que fui mama, de hecho, estando embarazada sufrí agresión física por parte de los colectivos porque estábamos en el centro electoral. Y por supuesto yo estaba defendiendo a los derechos de los que estaban ahí. Y de ahí bueno, fui victima de que me agredieron, me empujaron, me tuvieron que llevar al hospital. Entonces yo durante mi embarazo me mantuve come que bueno voy a bajar guardia un poquito. Después yo por supuesto retome todas mis actividades en los tribunales. Pero los tribunales y toda le gente en Venezuela estaban bajo el dominio del gobierno central. Entonces, un juez solamente dicta una sentencia no apegada a la ley. Si no apegado a lo que el gobierno central le a dicho. Entonces, esa era noticias que yo estaba peleando. Mhm. Y por supuesto ya a este punto me resuelva hay grupos por sectores. Ellos los llaman comités y [thinking]. No recuerdo. Consejos comunales. Consejos comunales. Y estos consejos comunales, lo único que hacen es estar evaluando todo lo que hacen las personas de ese sector. Entonces por supuesto el consejo comunal de mi sector no me quería. [riza] Aparte de que no me querían, estaba dando información de todo los que estaba haciendo. Entonces fue y fui identificada. Comenzaron las agresiones. Pasaron por mi casa. Personas vestidas de militares. A este punto no puedo asegurarte si eran de la milicia que es un grupo militar armado que creo el gobierno o eran militares formados en academia. Pero pasaban me amenazaban, lanzaban piedras, botellas. Me llamaban. Me perseguían en el carro. En los tribunales no me dejaban entrar. En las empresas cuando yo iba a trabajar porque tenia mi empresa que prestaba servicios a otras empresas, ponían cadenas en las entradas de las empresas. No dejaron pasar mi personal. No me dejaron entrar a mi. En dos oportunidades me amenazaron con armas. Los colectivos armados me rodearon el carro. No me dejaron bajar del carro. Tenían un arma, me decían que-- siempre lo que me decían era en la calle andamos y en la calle no encontramos. Esa era su amenaza. Solo era en mi contra. Porque yo siempre estaba en la calle. Y distintamente trabajando con empresas o trabajaron como abogada. Entonces, esto fue incrementándose. Incrementándose. Después que tenia a mi hijo, nació en el 2013, yo lo dejaba con mi mama mientras me iba al tribunal o mientras me iba a trabajar y muchas veces me llamaron. ¿Sabes donde esta tu hijo? Cuando llegas a tu casa no lo vas a encontrar. Entonces, era una tras otra. Una tras otra. Y me rallaron el carro. Le pincharon los cauchos. Ósea ya estaban muy fuertes. [emotional, tears] Entonces yo decidí, bueno, voy a salir. Porque ya no era solamente en mi contra. Yo no se, cuando yo estaba en la calle, yo no se que pasaba en mi casa. Y tampoco soy la chica súper poderosa que tenia la capacidad de protegerlo todo. ¿No? Ósea, yo solamente estaba ejerciendo lo que la ley me permitía. Toda la situación que estaba ocurriendo. Pero, muchos como yo simplemente se desaparecieron. Muchas personas aparecieron muertas. Entonces, yo dije no voy a esperar a que eso pase. Y decidí salir del país.
MC: ¿Que año fue que comenzó todas las amenazas sobre ti?
MPI: Mira, eso fue como en el año 2011. Pero desde el año 2011, como te digo, yo no era mama. Y yo tenia mi empresa y las amenazas con grupos, ellos se llaman sindicato de trabajadores Bolivarianos o sindicato de los Bolivarianos de los trabajadores. Algo así. Porque desde que Hugo Chávez tomo la presidencia todo se Bolivariano en Venezuela. Desde que Bolívar fue nuestro libertador y si lo reconocemos por supuesto con toda labor. El quiso hacerlo como mas patriótico. Un sentido de honrado, ¿no? Y de hecho le cambiaron el nombre. Ahora se llama Republica Bolivariano de Venezuela. Entonces, este sindicato de trabajadores bolivarianos eran grupo de personas que no tenían la mínima intención de trabajar solamente iban con los empresarios y querían que les pagaras sin hacer nada. Ese era su, su objetivo. Yo siempre me negué porque pues yo tenia trabajadores que estaban trabajando para redundancia y estaban recibiendo su salario y yo les decía, como yo te voy a pagar a ti si no estas trabajando, que me van a decir mis trabajadores entonces tampoco van a querer trabajar, ¿no? Además, era un desbalance muy grande y porque yo tengo que apoyar a una persona que simplemente quiere sacar dinero de mi caja. Eso se mantuvo por años hasta el punto que yo tuve que contratar otra persona que fuera la que hiciera visitas a las empresas para yo no estar ahí directamente. En ningún momento pague. No se si has escuchado en otros países abecés se llama, ellos hacen como cobro de vacuna. ¿No se si has escuchado esa expresión? Se hace entre la frontera de Colombia y Venezuela los usan mucho la guerrilla colombiana lo usaba en el pasado. Y es con los ganaderos. Le decían un cobro de vacuna. Es que la guerrilla quería una cuota de dinero con el solo hecho de permitirte que tu estés en tu tierra criando ese ganado. Entonces eso se extendió hacia otras partes del país y es lo que este sindicato hacia. Un cobro de vacuna. Algunos pagaron otros no pagaron. Yo fui una de las que no pague y siempre tenia esa persecución. Pero todo se incremento como te dije en el año 2012 cuando Hugo Chávez aparentemente fallese y tomo el poder Nicolás Maduro. En ese momento, todo se puso peor en Venezuela. Ya no era tanto como un socialismo ligero, si no que un socialismo mas dictatorial. Que es lo que se a establecido allá. Y entonces crecen los grupos armados y crece ya el gobierno amenazaba por medio de sus cuerpos de protección que era la policía estatal, la policía local y los, la guardia nacional que serbia como el ejercito. Ya amenazaban atreves de estos entes. De forma directa. Ya no era como--
MC: --escondido--
MPI: Si. Antes era como mas subliminal. Pero ahora ya era directo. Entonces así empezó a partir del año 2012. Y el 2013 se incremento absolutamente cuando hubo las elecciones. Inicialmente quedo Nicolás Maduro como encargado porque era vicepresidente. Pero ya cuando hubo las elecciones de Nicolás Maduro--elecciones presidenciales donde estaban Nicolás Maduro y Henrique Capriles Radonski. A partir de ese momento ya todo exploto y se puso, se agravo la situación de persecución en contra de cualquier persona. Como te dije. En contra de cualquiera que simplemente estaba manifestando en contra del gobierno. Y pues quedarse en Venezuela-- yo quisiera estar en Venezuela. Ósea, no era mi deseo jamás pensé voy a salir de mi país porque a mi me encanta Venezuela. Además, es donde crecí. Es todo lo que conozco. Esta toda mi familia. Pero la situación era, me quedo aquí y no se si me van a poner presa y ahí la simplemente muchas personas y muchos presos políticos que tienen años y simplemente están allí. Ni si quera han tenido juicio porque lo único que hace el gobierno es esta persona me molesta y lo encarcelo. O esta persona me molesta y la desaparezco o simplemente apareció muerta, tuvo accidente, hampa común. Y como yo no quería formar parte de esa estática entonces fue cuando decidí, ok, ya no puedo seguir aquí. Y realmente mi idea de salir del país no era por un tiempo largo. Yo dije voy a salir para que baje la situación como que se olviden de mi un rato y bueno yo después regreso. Pero, mi hijo, el--su papa es ciudadano estadounidense y este grupo de consejo comunal ellos manejan mucha información yo no se como se enteraron que el era ciudadano americano. Y entonces empiezan a aumentar la presión. Al yo salir de Venezuela especialmente para Estados Unidos, ¿que pasa? Lo que maneja el gobierno de Maduro en este caso es que si tu vas a Estados Unidos tu vas hablar con la DEA, con la CIA, eres un informante. Y por supuesto cuando entras, has cometido una traición a la patria tan grande que es lo que te espera es la cárcel. Eso es lo que ellos manejan. Y por supuesto cuando yo salgo, para mi pues, claro me baja la presión por supuesto que mi familia ya, y manteniendo contacto con mi familia allá no vayas a regresar. No vayas a regresar porque a pasado esto, pasaron muchas cosas que definitivamente hicieron imposible para mi regresar porque era evidente que al yo pisar otra vez suelo venezolano, cuando yo presentara mi pasaporto mi iban a poner presa. Eso era lo que iba esperar.
MC: Wow.
MPI: Incluso ahora. Años después. Tengo cinco años fuera de mi país. Seis años. Si yo regreso ahorita es lo que va pasar. [emotional]
MC: Que duro. No me puedo imaginar eso para ti. Que duro es eso. ¿Y que año Mónica es cuando te fuiste de Venezuela y llegaste a los Estados Unidos?
MPI: Yo salí de Venezuela y llegué acá al siete de marzo de 2015. Si.
MC: ¿Y te viniste con tu hijo y tu esposo?
MPI: Solamente mi hijo.
MC: Solo tu hijo.
MPI: Solamente mi hijo porque yo no estoy casada. Nosotros estábamos separados por el momento. De hecho, mi hijo nació en Venezuela. Pero, tuve que hablar con el y decir, el ya vivía acá por muchos años. El vivía muchísimo antes que yo, estuvo aquí. Y hablé con el y le dije definitivamente tengo que ir para allá.
MC: Me interesa saber un poco mas de ese proceso. ¿Como decidiste venirte aquí a Carolina del Norte? ¿Como llegaste aquí a Hickory?
MPI: Ok. Años anteriores, yo había venido acá. Tuve la oportunidad de ir a Atlanta, a Washington. Porque como te dije, yo no tenia una posición alta económicamente en Venezuela, pero era cómoda y tuve la oportunidad de viajar. Entonces, también visite Noruega, visite Portugal. No visite Italia a pesar que mi familia, mis raíces son italianas, pero [riza]. Y cuando vine a Carolina del Norte, me pareció tan tranquilo. Un lugar bello de un clima-- Bueno yo siempre vine cuando estaba como en primavera, es como el clima mas o menos en Venezuela. Y si. Cuando vine, de hecho, ya había comprado una casa siendo turista. Yo vine y compré una casa porque yo dije quiero venir mas veces para acá. Y mi idea era venir y como que irme a conocer el país. Y dije, ya para no tener la angustia de conseguir un hotel, pagar un hotel pues ya tengo un lugar donde llegar. Y tenia mi casa acá en Hickory. Entonces siempre estaba ahí y venia o iba venir. Y ese era otra de las razones por las cuales el gobierno tenia como que su foco en mi. Porque, bueno, ¿porque ella viaja mucho? Porque muchas veces en el aeropuerto me decían porque, abecés me costaba que me dejaban salir. Me revisaban la guardia nacional y todo porque era, ¿que haces tu en Estados Unidos? El imperialismo como ellos les llamaba. Muchas veces si yo voy a comprar equipo para mi empresa, porque a eso, muchos de mis viajas fueron por ese motivo, pero por supuesto no es algo que, es como el gobierno en Cuba. En Cuba ellos, llego un momento que ellos ya no pueden salir y tienen que declarar por qué. De hecho, en Venezuela tu tienes que declarar, por ejemplo, si yo tenia mi tarjeta de crédito, pero mi tarjeta de crédito solamente trabaja en Venezuela. No la puedo usar internacionalmente. Para poderlo usar internacionalmente tenia que pedir cupo de dólares al gobierno o de euros dependiendo donde fuera. Y ellos tenían que pasar una carta, llenar todo las seria de formularios y solicitar permiso al gobierno para que me autorizaran ese dinero. Y dependía del tiempo. Si yo iba a estar un mes, ellos me podían aprobar 300 dólares. O si iba estar cuatro meses ellos me podrían aprobar mil dólares. Todo dependía. En mi ultimo viajé cuando me vine con mi hijo ellos no me aprobaron nada porque yo estaba totalmente vetada. Yo no podía ir a pedir ni un crédito al banco, en ningún banco del estado no pude hacer eso y no pude pedir mi cubro en dólares porque simplemente yo no tenia permiso para hacerlo. Esa es la situación.
MC: Dime un poco mas sobre tu empresa que tenias en Venezuela. Se que eras abogada y dime mas sobre tu empresa.
MPI: Ok. Antes de ser abogada, yo estudié una carrera corta y me gradué en el área de publicidad y mercadeo. Y mi empresa era para prestar servicios a empresas. ¿Que hacíamos? Ministrábamos personal, por ejemplo, peronil de limpieza o personal de mantenimiento de jardines. Y también hacíamos obras civiles. Obras civiles incluía construcción, por ejemplo, una empresa necesitaba remodelar un área de oficina, nosotros lo podíamos hacer. Si necesitaba remodelar o construir un área, una línea de producción, la podíamos hacer. Trabajábamos abecés conjuntamente con otra empresa que hacia toda el área metalúrgica que es todo lo que es línea de transportadores, todo eso. De eso se trataba mi empresa. Y siempre estaba contratando personal. Yo tenia, llegue de tener mas de cien trabajadores porque prestábamos servicios en los campos industriales donde había muchas empresas que estábamos, empresas que hacían vidrios o botellas, embace de vidrio donde esta la mayonesa, la salsa de tomata. En nosotros prestábamos servicios ahí. Donde hacían equipo de protección personal lo que era botas, mascarillas, lentes. Ahí también prestábamos servicio. Tenemos una empresa también donde ellos hacen electros que son estas baritas que usan para soldar. En esa empresa también teníamos personal. Y en esas empresas tenemos personal fijo. Todo el año por muchos años, pero había otras que requerían, por ejemplo, área de hacer mantenimiento a los jardines y se hacían solamente en el área de jardines o solamente un área para pintar. Se suministra personal para pintar. De eso se trataba mi empresa, pero yo siempre quise ser abogada. Fíjate yo estudie publicidad y mercadeo, trabaje en el área de construcción y mantenimiento, pero yo tenia la idea de que yo quiero ser abogada. Porque cuando yo me gradué de, en Venezuela le decimos liceo lo que es el equivalente de high school. Yo decía, bueno, primero voy a trabajar algo porque no quería que mi papa me apoyara en lo que era la universidad y todo. Aunque en Venezuela tenemos universidades publicas y privadas. Pero me fui a trabajar, luego yo misma me pagué la universidad para mi primera carrera. Tenia mi empresa y dije bueno, ya cuando ya tenia mi empresa bien establecida ahora si tengo tiempo y tengo dinero para pagar la universidad para estudiar. Para ser abogada. Y fue cuando estudie para ser abogada. Luego llevaba las dos. Manejaba lo que era mi empresa porque ya pude contratar mas personas, delegar responsabilidades y yo me fui con el derecho, pero en el derecho de familia. Trabajaba mucho con lo que era la procuraduría de niños y niñas adolecentes. Y llevaba las dos. Y después pues dio un vuelto total. Ya no trabajaba con niños si no que ya me iba a tribunales penales. A policías. A fiscalías. Y ya ahí fue cuando se afeo mi carrera [riza]. Si.
MC: Que bueno. Que, y porque decidiste, ¿o convertirte en abogada? ¿Siempre tenias esa, como pasión para trabajar con familias?
MPI: Si. Desde siempre, de hecho, a mi cuando yo estaba estudiando en la escuela en el liceo yo decía, yo quiero ser abogada porque yo quiero estar en un tribunal. A mi me encantaba todo lo que eran las series de policías y abogados tribunales que se presentaban defendiendo a alguien. Presentas todo el caso. Eso me encantaba. Pero después, cuando, bueno no pude estudiarlo porque dije voy a, me gradué, y dije, prefiero trabajar. Quiero trabajar. Y entonces estudie una carrera corta. Simplemente como para crear una base educativa, ¿no? Entonces, luego lo que hice cuando yo tuve la oportunidad estudié para abogada, pero dije no. Creo que no me voy a ir por la parte de los tribunales porque resulta ser un poco peligroso, ¿no? Ya, claro, ya mas adelante te das cuenta de que ciertamente la realidad es otra o no es mas bonita que lo presentan en la televisión. Si estoy defendiendo a alguien que supongamos tenia conexiones con droga y entonces después muchos abogados parecen muertos. Entonces es así como que bueno no se a quien voy a defender o a quien estoy culpando. Mejor no me voy por esa área. Y el área que me gustaba mucho era la de familia. Trabajar con niños fue muy, es un área bien bonita. Es muy triste algunas veces porque tienes que separar niños de sus papas o tienes que ver como te encuentras niños con unos papas que realmente no están calificados para ser papas. Entonces, es dura en ese sentido. Pero es bonita porque te queda la gratificación de que estas haciendo algo por los niños específicamente o por mantener la familia, ¿ok? Lo extraño y o abecés lo gracioso cuando hablo con algunos otros colegas que dice tu te fuiste por el área de familia y no cobrabas. Yo nomas llegue abecés no cobraba. Yo hacia mi trabajo acomunen porque en muchos casos eran familias de bajo recursos. No tienen como pagar un abogado. El abogado en todas partes del mundo es muy costoso. Y abecés el abogado te aprobé el estado no es que no este calificado para hacer el trabajo si no que es simplemente tienen mucho trabajo. Le dan muchos casos y no le dedica el tiempo necesario. Entonces, yo ya tenia una base que era mi empresa que me mantenía económicamente entonces me pude dar el lujo de representar muchas familias sin haber cobrado. Era un trabajo [] pero de verdad muy gratificante [emocional].
MC: Que bueno. Se escucha y lo puedo ver en tu emoción que es algo muy importante para ti.
MPI: Si.
MC: Bueno, cambiando un poquito de tema otra vez. Cuando primero viajaste a Carolina del Norte como turista, ¿era Hickory donde viniste o era otra ciudad aquí en Carolina del Norte?
MPI: No. Yo vine a Raleigh.
MC: ¿A Raleigh?
MPI: Mhm.
MC: Ok.
MPI: Vine a Raleigh y visité Charlotte también. No conocí a Hickory.
MC: ¿Entonces, mi interesa como llegaste a conocer a Hickory?
MPI: Porque el papa de mi hijo vivía y a vivido siempre en Granite Falls. Y pues vine hasta Hickory. Pero realmente mi punto de entrada fue Raleigh. Fue la ciudad que conocí inicialmente. Luego Charlotte, entonces vine a Hickory.
MC: Si.
MPI: Si. Y definitivamente me encanto y me a encantado. [riza]
MC: Y recuérdame, ¿que año es que llegaste a Carolina del Norte?
MPI: 2015.
MC: 2015.
MPI: Cuando ya vine--
MC: []
MPI: Si. Que me traje a mi hijo fue en el año 2015. Siete de marzo 2015. Mhm.
MC: ¿Y eso es cuando llegaste aquí a Hickory?
MPI: A Hickory. Mhm.
MC: Y cuéntame un poco de eso. Tu dices, me imagino, o no se, empezaste desde-- Ya tenias casa aquí me dices, pero en parta de tu carrera, como paso todo eso. ¿Como estas aquí ahorita en El Centro Latino? Cuéntame un poquito sobre donde comenzaste aquí en Hickory?
MPI: Ok. Cuando llegue a Hickory por supuesto no conocía nada [riza]. Yo estaba, me pasaba los días en mi casa. Como traje a mi niño bebe pues estaba en mi casa. Empecé a pintar. Estos [points to pictures on her wall] es parte de lo que empecé a pintar porque dije definitiva no pude ir a estudiar acá o ejercer mi carrera porque no tenia lo estudios acá. Además que no tenia el idioma. Yo lo que sabia de ingles era lo poquito que había aprendido cuando estaba estudiando en el liceo todo high school. Y por nada yo estaba en mi casa. Pero dije, no puedo estar en mi casa. Soy enemiga de estar sin hacer nada [riza]. Y empecé a pintar. Cree una cuenta de Instagram para la pintura y empecé relacionar con personas. Empecé a practicar el ingles porque pues tenia que hacer los posts. Tenia que [riza] escribir en ingles y me fui a Lenoir a una, no recuerdo como se llama, es una oficina donde dan clases de ingles es como una agencia donde dan clases de ingles y tienen cuidado para niños. Entonces, que era lo mas importante porque el CVCC acá en Hickory lo ofrece, pero no tenia el cuidado para niños. Y yo por supuesto nada mas estábamos el y yo. No tenia nadie que me lo cuidara. Entonces allá el estuvo como en un pre pre-K [riza]. Y yo mientras yo estaba en clases de ingles. Ahí conocí varias personas que, tuve la oportunidad de conocer varias personas con las que todavía mantengo contacto. Y luego ya empecé como a soltarme un poquito mas. Luego buscando clases de ingles mas cerca de mi porque yo decía bueno, Lenoir me queda treinta minutos de mi casa. Entonces, buscando clases de ingles mas cerca encontré El Centro Latino. Y si fui al Centro Latino que quedaba realmente muy muy cerca de mi casa me di cuenta fue cuando lo busqué en internet estaba muy cerca de mi casa y luego se mudaron. Pero se mudaron y ya me quedaba mas lejos que era se mudaron para acá donde están ahora. Entonces, una vez vine para preguntar por algún servicio. Luego otra vez. Hasta que me fui involucrando mas porque realmente tengo esa espinita como que me gusta trabajar para la comunidad, ¿no? Y en mi casa estaba como que que puedo hacer para yo relacionarme con algo ayudar a alguien. Entonces pues El Centro Latino fue la oportunidad. Y fue parte de su junta directiva. Me invitaron de formar parte de su junta. Estuve año y medio creo como parte de la junta directiva acá. Eran poquito difícil porque nos reuníamos y yo entendía mas de lo que podía hablar en ingles. Pero, pues me encantaba porque íbamos para eventos y llevamos información de Centro Latino. Lo otro que me gustaba es que yo podía tener a mi hijo durante esos eventos y el, yo creo que es como que lo lleva en la sangre y también lo que a vivido. El le encanta todo esto lo de vamos a ayudar a la gente y vamos a entregar un folleto. Y siempre, siempre me a estado apoyando con eso. Entonces, así fue que empecé en El Centro Latino. Luego me separe por un año que fue el año 2019 porque me enferme. Tuve, me diagnosticaron cáncer de senos. Me operaron. Estuve en tratamiento y aunque no fue fuerte realmente. Puedo decirte que no estuve acostada ni un día [riza]. Me mantuve a pie. Me separe de lo que era El Centro Latino porque para estaba mas involucrada en actividades que yo estaba en capacidad de hacer en ese momento. Y el año pasado siempre me mantuve en contacto con las personas de acá. El año pasado Eddie Marlowe que es el director, el presidente actual de la junta Directiva, y el también es oficial de policía en Long View que es el área donde yo vivo. También oficial de policía contacto con la comunidad en la escuela South West que es donde mi hijo asistía. El un día fue a mi casa y me dijo, oye me gustaría que fueras al Centro Latino y estuvieras en contacto con la chica que esta allá para que ustedes hablen porque ella es bien joven. La persona que estaba acá. Y un poquito tímida. Entonces dice, yo creo que tu puedes ir y hablan a ver como se puede hacer porque bueno estábamos afrentando lo que era la pandemia y todo esto. Pero manteníamos contacto con la comunidad. Y le dije, bueno si. Me gusta la idea. Y vine, pero al poco tiempo ella decidió renunciar porque tuvo una oferta de trabajo en otro lugar y como te digo era así como que un poquito tímida y no le gustaba mucho quizás. Entonces ellos me ofrecieron quedarme acá en el puesto de servicios al cliente. Y yo definitivamente les dije no, yo no puedo hacer eso. ¿Por qué? Bueno, porque yo no hablo ingles. Tiene que ser una persona que hable ingles la que este ahí. Y ellos me dicen, pero tu estas hablando con nosotros. Y nosotros contigo y nos estamos entendiendo. Ósea, si estamos hablando en ingles. Y les dije bueno yo voy hacer el intento. Voy a probar. Y empecé oficialmente el 12 de abril del año pasado, 2021. ¿Y fue así como que después que estaba aquí, ¿ahora que hago? [riza] Pero por que te digo, no importa la formación que yo hubiera tenido legal, ni ningún estudio. Ósea, tener el lenguaje es muy importante y yo no me sentía capas. Pero después dije, si. Yo tengo que poder hacerlo. Y bueno aquí, además yo dije si ellos confían en mi, ¿porque yo no voy a confiar en mi? Y si. Pues aquí estoy casi un año después y me fui a todos los eventos que me invitaron. Trate de hablar con todas las personas en el idioma ingles o español. No importa. Por supuesto mi inglés siempre estoy un poquito mas limitada. A mi me gusta hablar mucho [riza]. Y en inglés abecés me ciento frustrada porque bueno no lo puedo decir. Pero decidí como que, bueno yo lo voy a decir como me salga. Si me entienden muy bien y si no pues yo trato. [riza] Y así e tratado y pues aquí estoy. Así casi, casi un año después. Mhm.
MC: ¿Cuéntame un poquito mas sobre tu posición actual ahorita? ¿Es Servicios al Cliente?
MPI: Si.
MC: ¿Que haces ahora?
MPI: Ellos lo llaman, el titulo del cargo es Client Service Advocate. Y lo que hago acá es básicamente conectar con la comunidad. Soy como que la primera puerta cuando alguien viene acá. Tengo información de recursos que hay en la comunidad no solamente en Hickory si no en zonas aledañas. Sea hasta Charlotte, hasta Concord. Entonces, la personas que vienen a referir un servicio acá tenemos conexiones con abogados, con servicios médicos, con servicios de consejería. Con todo lo que vaya a necesitar cada persona. Y también me encargo de planear algunos eventos. Por ejemplo, feria de empleo o charlas. Recientemente tuvimos una charla en finanzas. También tuvimos una charla con una abogada de inmigración que vino desde Charlotte. Esos son pequeños eventos que yo planeo porque en general necesitamos de la junta directiva y otros comités para crear eventos mas grandes. Pero, me dieron permiso de crear estos pequeños y mantener como que las puertas abiertas para la comunidad. También tenemos clases de ingles para adultos que estamos ofreciendo ahora mismo. Y yo estoy acá me reunió con las maestras. Creamos un plan especial para los estudiantes distintos a lo que se puede ofrecer en otro lugar que vas a estudiar inglés y te dan mas información de gramática. Y bueno, quedo así, como digo esto, ¿como lo digo? Creamos un plan conversacional. Necesitamos que las personas aprendan a ir hablar con la maestra de sus hijos, ir al mercado a ser compras. Ir al medico explicar que me duele algo. Entonces, en eso pasamos las clases y desde octubre 2021 las empezamos y hasta ahora han sido muy exitosas. Y por eso, básicamente es lo que yo hago. Voy a eventos, voy actividades que tengan afuera. Y el plan para este año es ir a iglesias y conversar con ellos y como quizá un parte de su congregación para saber de primera mano que necesita la comunidad del Centro Latino. Ese es el plan para este año. Pero todavía estoy planeando la feria de empleo [riza].
MC: Si.
MPI: Si. Vamos a tener una feria de empleo próximamente y la estoy planeando.
MC: Que bueno. Eso es muy importante para la comunidad aquí especialmente porque si. Yo también mude aquí hace como diez años ahora. Y unas de las cosas que me sorprendió de aquí de Catawba County es que si hay una población grande de latinos.
MPI: Si--
MC: De hispanohablantes aquí. Y otra cosa, en tu opinión Mónica, y no se para ti personalmente o lo que vez en tu trabajo con la comunidad hispana. ¿Que son los recursos que necesitan mas en tu opinión la comunidad hispana que vive aquí en Catawba County o en Carolina del Norte?
MPI: El principal recurso que necesita es el idioma. Porque es como un shocker cuando llegas-- Hay muchas personas que se vienen ya con el idioma ingles. Pero la mayoría no. Entonces, llegar y no saber el idioma es una barrera súper gigante cuando las personas llegan acá. Y por otro es el conocimiento de todos los recursos que puedan existir en el estado o en el condado y de cual te puedes beneficiar. Eso es algo que por eso estamos trabajando acá en El Centro Latino para poder decirle a la comunidad, mira, puedes recurrir a este lugar o puedes obtener este recurso porque pues, cuando uno llega aquí y te lo digo yo particularmente que vengo de otro país, sin conocer el idioma, sin conocer la cultura, llego aquí y digo, me siento totalmente perdida. Porque no me atrevo ni abrir la puerta porque quizá la persona que viva alrededor de mi casa me va decir algo y no lo voy a poder entender. No se si esta legalmente correcto hacer alguna cosa o no. Entonces, el recurso mas vital que podemos ofrecer a las personas que están llegando es educativo. 100%. En cuanto el idioma, en cuanto recursos, en cuanto ¿que puedes hacer y que no? Porque Latinoamérica es totalmente diferente. Entonces, a lo mejor yo en Venezuela solía tener el perro suelto corriendo, pero aquí no. Entonces me puedo meter en un problema. Entonces estar, educar a las personas en como es esta cultura. Como es este país. Y alguna labor que toma mucho tiempo también porque personas que se resisten al cambio aun cuando están aquí. Ellos dicen pues así e sido toda mi vida y así voy a seguir, pero definitivamente no. Tenemos que adaptarnos a este lugar que nos esta abriendo las puertas, que nos esta bridando oportunidades, nos cobija y nos protege, pero debemos adaptarnos y conocer como es aquí. ¿Como es esta nueva vida que ahora me a tocado? Ese es realmente el recurso primordial que nosotros podemos ofrecer.
MC: Y bueno, una ultima pregunta para ti. ¿Te piensas quedar aquí en Catawba County? Y bueno, cuéntame tus pensamientos sobre eso.
MPI: Bueno, yo espero y me gustaría porque como te dije por toda esta situación en Venezuela yo estoy aquí como asilo político y todavía estoy aquí. Fui a mi entrevista y todo. Todavía estoy, tengo tres años esperando por una respuesta. Y espero que sea afirmativo porque si definitivamente estoy enamorada de este lugar porque--y yo creo que si me permiten quedarme yo me quedo aquí en este condado. Me gusta por supuesto Charlotte, Asheville, Atlanta. Son ciudades grandes y no me gusta la vida como que apurada, agitada de esas ciudades. Quizás hay mas oportunidades, quizás hay mas recursos. Pero aquí me gusta. Aquí todo es mas tranquilo, es un lugar excelente para que los niños crezcan. Tienen excelentes escuelas, maestros. Yo que tuve la oportunidad de estar muy con el sistema de salud por mi condición de salud, maravilloso. Todas a las personas que te encuentras. Ósea, definitivamente yo me quedaría aquí [riza]. Si me lo permiten. Y tener una, como un plan B no lo tengo [riza]. Hasta ahora no lo tengo.
MC: Es lo que te iba preguntar. ¿Que sigue para ti? Pero--
MPI: Si, ósea un plan B donde irme, no. Ahorita, me estoy formado en el área de inmigración. Y hace cuando te digo comencé a pintar. También tomé un curso en el área de inmigración porque pues era lo que mi formación legal me permitía porque la otra opción es ir a la universidad y como te dije mi idioma no estaba muy-- Y todavía no [riza]. Todavía me comunico, pero no, no todavía fluidamente. Entonces, me estoy formando en el área de inmigración porque definitivamente el-- seguiré ayudando a otras personas cuando llegan acá. Es mi vicio. Eso es lo que yo quiero seguir haciendo. Mhm. Seguir ayudando. También estoy enseñando español. No es algo para El Centro Latino, es algo que estoy haciendo en mi tiempo extra en una iglesia cerca de, en el área de Long View donde vivo. Y estoy enamorada de esas clases también porque no es, no es la idea de que bueno, como yo hablo español yo quiero que hables español para yo ya no hablar ingles, no. Si no es explicar un poquito de la variedad de culturas que tenemos aquí. Este país es súper rico en culturas. Y que bonito es cuando todos no podemos integrar y definitivamente eliminar esa barrer del idioma es primero que tenemos que hacer. Entonces, yo como hispana aprender inglés y si tengo la oportunidad de enseñar español y que nos podamos unir y conversar y yo ensenar mi cultura y aprender de la cultura aquí definitivamente eso es primordial. Y si lo puedo hacer y esta en mis manos pues yo lo voy a seguir asiendo.
MC: Claro que si. Bueno, son todas las preguntas que tengo para ti. ¿No se si quieres decir algo mas o?
MPI: Bueno pues sobre todo si quiero darte las gracias por esta oportunidad. Me encanta el proyecto que estas haciendo y que esta llevando acabo la universidad porque no solamente es lo que podemos decirte en este momento si no que es dejarlo gravado para el futuro las personas que generaciones futuras que vayan hacer alguna investigación o que simplemente quieren saber un poquito, bueno como era en el 2021? [Riza] Como era en el 2022? Y como para que yo espero y confió en que el futuro sea mucho mejor. Y que esa persona diga, wow. Hemos crecido. Hemos mejorado desde lo que se ofrecía en aquel momento hasta que se ofrece ahora. Eso seria maravilloso.
MC: Si. Bueno Mónica, muchas gracias. Si. Muchas gracias.
MPI: Claro que si.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Educadores
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Español
Es: Resumen
Monica Pagnini-Ibarra era una propietaria de negocios y abogada de familia en Maracay, Venezuela y actualmente se desempeña como Consejera de Asistencia al Cliente en El Centro Latino en Hickory, Carolina del Norte. Mónica comienza la entrevista compartiendo cómo era la vida para ella y su familia en Maracay, Venezuela y relata sus recuerdos favoritos de su infancia. Ella habla de las inseguridades políticas, la violencia y el trastorno que ella y su familia enfrentaron en sus últimos años en Venezuela. Mónica profundiza sobre la inseguridad política que experimentó, las amenazas que recibió debido a su participación en manifestaciones legales y cómo esas amenazas finalmente la llevaron a huir de su país natal en el 2015. Mónica también me cuenta sobre el exitoso negocio que fundó en Venezuela y sus pasos para convertirse en abogada de familia y servir en tribunales judiciales. Luego comparte cómo fue la vida para ella en Carolina del Norte después de huir de su país y explica los desafíos que enfrentó mientras comenzaba una nueva vida aquí. Mónica discute su papel actual en El Centro Latino y describe los talleres y eventos especiales que ayuda a crear para la comunidad. Ella cierra la entrevista hablando sobre los recursos que cree ser más necesarios para la comunidad hispanohablante y lo que ha planea para el futuro.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Mónica Pagnini-Ibarra por Marisa Carlton, 28 March 2022, R-0999, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Activismo; Programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios; Trabajo y empleo; Lenguaje y comunicación; Guerra y violencia
Es: Transcripción
Marisa Carlton: Ok. Hola, me llamo Marisa Carlton. Estoy aquí con Mónica en El Centro Latino en Hickory, North Carolina. Le vamos hacer unas preguntas sobre su vida y su historia y el trabajo que hace ella ahorita. Mónica gracias por estar aquí conmigo. Quiero comenzar un poco, no, no conozco mucho de ti--
Mónica Pagnini-Ibarra: --ok--
MC: Entonces, cuéntame un poquito sobre ti. ¿De donde eres? ¿Donde naciste? Y cuéntame un poco del lugar.
MPI: Ok. Gracias por invitarme a participar en esta entrevista. Y pues yo soy venezolana. Nací en Venezuela en Maracay estado de Aragua. La cuidad jardín del país. Es la zona central del país y bueno, siempre me mantuve ahí en esa área. Desde-- ahí crecí y estudié. Me forme como profesional. Y también nació mi hijo. En esa ciudad, aunque pues si por supuesto tuve la oportunidad de recorrer otras partes del país. Te puedo decír que era como de las mas bonitas o la mas agradable en clima, en su gente. La gente en Venezuela en línea general es súper amable. Como que siempre estamos de buen humor. No importa lo que este pasando siempre sacamos como un chiste o una broma, ósea así que este muy mala la situación, de una manera vas a Venezuela y la pasas bien. Feliz. Y así es lugar donde crecí. Un poquito, sos sabes, con todos los altivados que tiene pues un país o un pueblo, pero en línea general es un lugar bonito con naturaleza bonita. Una tierra agradable. Un clima agradable. Y por supuesto una gente bien cordial siempre.
MC: Claro que si. ¿Y que parte del estado esta su, la cuidad donde creció?
MPI: ¿En que parte del estado? Estamos en la zona central en el estado Aragua. Maracay es la capital del estado de Aragua y esta en la zona central del país. Mas o menos como a unos, que una hora a treinta minutos a la capital Caracas.
MC: Ok. ¿Y como era la vida para ti y tu familia viviendo y creciendo en Venezuela?
MPI: Pues, yo tuve familia relativamente normal. [riza] Fue una vida, fue una vida sencilla. No, nosotros no teníamos una posición económica alta. Pero, vivíamos cómodamente. Tuvimos—solamente somos dos hermanas. Tuvimos la oportunidad de ir a la escuela, de ir a la universidad. Yo particularmente tuve la oportunidad de crear mi propio negocio. Entonces, si. Fue-- tuvimos una buena vida. Realmente, una familia de muchos valores y numerosa porque en Venezuela tenemos la oportunidad de saber--Tienes mama, papa, y también tus abuelos, los tíos, los primos. Entonces, como que siempre estas en contacto con toda la familia. A diferencia de aquí que ahora no tengo ese contacto cercano, ¿no? Pero si. Ósea, si se crece así. Crecí así en familia. Una familia con valores y que tuve la oportunidad de aprovechar lo que me brindaron a lo largo de mi vida.
MC: Claro. ¿Y tus papas de que se dedicaban?
MPI: Mi mama, mi mama siempre a trabajado en un colegio. Yo vengo du una familia de educadores. [riza] Tengo una hermana de mi mama también educador, unas tías, su esposa, ósea, mi mama también siempre trabajo en el colegio. Ella trabajaba en el área de orientación. Siempre trabajando con adolescentes. Y mi papa trabajaba en una empresa y el viajaba bastante, pero a pesar que viajaba siempre estaba en la casa. Ósea, el viajaba durante su horario de trabajo. No era que si iba por días. No. El siempre estaba, ¿como podría decirte que era su cargo? Estaba-- es como mantenía conexión con dos sucursales de la empresa. Entonces, siempre estaba en comunicación y tenia que viajar común trabajaba en el área administrativa. Realmente el cargo exacto, no me acuerdo.
MC: Esta bien. [riza] Y bueno, pensando un poquito mas en tu infancia. ¿Que fueron tus recuerdos mas bonitos creciendo con tu familia ahí en Venezuela?
MPI: Las reuniones familiares. Eso si me acuerdo claramente. Yo viví, yo crecí entre dos culturas. Ente la venezolana y la italiana porque mi papa era italiano y mis abuelos. Entonces, las reuniones familiares siempre. Por cualquier motivo. Por un cumpleaños. Sobre todo, navidad en la época de diciembre nos reuníamos. En la, con mi abuela, con mi mama y con mis nonos que son mis abuelos paternos. Entonces, era, no era fiesta, pero si una reunión para sentarse, comer, compartir, abrir los regalos. Era súper estupendo para los niños sobre todo porque tenias expectativas de que el niño Jesús te tenia tu regalo. Y es un recuerdo bien bonito que tengo. Las playas teníamos una casa en la playa y en Maracay esta aproximadamente 45 minutos o una hora de la costa de Ocumare de la Costa. Unas playas bellísimas que extraño a montón. Y si, compartir. Vivimos mucho tiempo en la playa. Mucho. Casi que los fines mis papas nos llevaban casi todos los fines de semana y eso es algo que extraño y algo que era un recuerdo que tengo siempre.
MC: Si. Que bueno. Y también quería preguntarle, como era, experimentaron ahí tu familia y tu personalmente, ¿experimentaron como situaciones de inseguridad política? Yo se que en Venezuela siempre ávido mucha inseguridad política, económica. ¿Experimentaron algo así?
MPI: Cuando yo era niña y adolescente no. Pero desde que Hugo Chávez Frías tomo el cargo de presidente de la republica en Venezuela, el país definitivamente fue en decadencia. Todo lo que te digo, todo lo que te acabo de comentar fue como que antes de esa fecha. Del año 1999 para acá es total una historia distinta. Y si. Comenzó yo creo que no, no hay familia en Venezuela que te diga que a estado absenta de vivir alguna situación de inseguridad. Ya bien sea por inseguridad social, económica. Económicamente nos afecto todos. Y definitivamente políticamente. En mi caso particular unas de las razonas por las cuales, o la razón por la cual yo deje mi país es por estas inseguridades y situación política que se presento. Yo, como te comenté antes, tuve la oportunidad de ir a la universidad. Yo me forme del área de leyes. Soy abogado. Y el gobierno de Venezue-- el gobierno de Hugo Chávez, empezó con expropiaciones. Las personas por supuesto empezaron-- el pueblo se levanto en contra del gobierno. En muchas oportunidades. Y trataron como consecuencia que se comenzaron esa persecución política. En contra de personas que, aunque no era muy política, porque yo no me considero nunca que estuve ahí ni nunca política estando para ello. Pero, estuve muy involucrada con el proceso electorales y con la defensa de personas que estaban siendo aprendida por la policía o por la guardia nacional. Solamente porque estaban ejerciendo su derecho a manifestar en contra del gobierno. Entonces, eso comenzó, o desencargo en mi caso particular una persecución política. Yo tenia mi empresa por ahí tuve muchas situaciones también relacionadas con la política. Aunque mi empresa no era política, era de servicios. Y cuando ya me involucré mas en el ámbito legal, todo dio un vuelto de 360 grados. En mi contra. El gobierno en mi contra. Y entonces empezó, no solamente la, los-- algún grupo que se genero allá cuando Hugo Chávez tomo el poder que se llama colectivos. No se si has escuchado de ellos. Estos son grupo armados, son civiles pero un grupo armado que siempre va disolver las manifestaciones que se hace en contra del gobierno. Por supuesto ellos matan, secuestran personas, desaparecen personas. Y otro van conjuntamente con la policía con la guarda nacional que, aunque son gentes que deberían protegernos, a nosotros como sociedad como pueblo, siempre están en contra y no te digo que todos. Algunos no están en contra, pero uno esta en contra, unos están en contra del pueblo, pero ellos no pueden hacer nada porque forman parte de ese cuerpo. Entonces, empezaron amenaces, persecuciones y eso me obligo porque yo recién había sido mama. Estaba mi bebe chiquitico. Y ya empezaron como que, esas agresiones en contra de mi hijo. Hacerle, dirigidas en contra de mi hijo. Amenazas. Y me amenazaron en tribunales. Yo no podía- yo estaba vetada no podía ir a defender a nadie. En la policía era un súper mal trato. Cuando yo iba en defensa de una persona. Entonces, realmente, nada. Me toco como que empacar todo en una maleta y salir de mi país. [emotional, tears]
MC: Mhm. Explícame un poquito mas, porque paso eso y porque en contra de ti?
MPI: Ok. Cuando te manifiestan en contra del gobierno en Venezuela, eres traidora a la patria. Eso es lo que ellos establecen. Entonces, muchas personas, aunque yo me forme en área de familia, yo trabaje--yo me forme como abogada y podía trabajar en distintas áreas, pero me fui para el área de familia. Era una parte que me gustaba mucho y no tenia nada que ver con política ni con--[riza]. Pero, al ser yo parte también de manifestaciones, porque si. Yo fui. Manifesté. Así, mi derecho a expresar mi opinión contra el gobierno con lo que estaba pasando, me vi muy de cerca con las personas que simplemente porque tenían un cartel y dijo no estoy de acuerdo con equis se la llevan presa. A muchos en una oportunidad estuve en una manifestación donde los colectivos pasaron disparando y mataron a dos personas. Entonces, tu ves ahí como todos estamos, no importa el nivel social [emotional, tears] ni el nivel de, ósea el nivel social o el nivel socioeconómica que tenias, todos estábamos en el mismo lugar. Y yo empecé entonces a ofrecer mis servicios a manera gratuita. Yo me iba defender a las personas porque efectivamente nuestra constitución establece que tenemos derecho a manifestar. Básicamente, por supuesto. Y era lo que estábamos haciendo. Cuando yo empiezo hacer eso, ya el gobierno me indica a mi como traidora a la patria. Yo estaba haciendo algo totalmente en contra de lo que el gobierno actual califica como aceptable. De forma que en Venezuela se estableció un gobierno debajo la figura democrática pero totalmente socialista, dictatorial a este punto. Entonces, el hecho de yo ir y defender a las personas, eso genero un descontento por parte de del gobierno local donde veían efectivamente yo me estaba manifestando en contra. Y que yo estaba haciendo algo que ellos califican como ilegal. Entonces la manera de ellos es hacer presión para estas personas o para quienes nos manifestamos o quienes vamos y defendemos es simplemente desaparecernos. Pero antes de desaparecernos, ellos empiezan amenazar porque muchos, muchos colegas, muchos que estaban en esa línea simplemente se fueron del país o decidieron no voy a seguir porque corre peligro en mi vida, corre peligro en la vida de mi familia. Pero yo siempre e sido un poquito terca y yo me mantuve. Y me mantuve. Y te digo cuando, cuando estaba yo solita, de alguna manera no me importaba porque pues, bueno, me iba pasar algo a mi. También yo tenia a mi mama, mi papa, mi hermana, pero era como mas sencillo, ¿no? Estaba yo sola. Después que fui mama, de hecho, estando embarazada sufrí agresión física por parte de los colectivos porque estábamos en el centro electoral. Y por supuesto yo estaba defendiendo a los derechos de los que estaban ahí. Y de ahí bueno, fui victima de que me agredieron, me empujaron, me tuvieron que llevar al hospital. Entonces yo durante mi embarazo me mantuve come que bueno voy a bajar guardia un poquito. Después yo por supuesto retome todas mis actividades en los tribunales. Pero los tribunales y toda le gente en Venezuela estaban bajo el dominio del gobierno central. Entonces, un juez solamente dicta una sentencia no apegada a la ley. Si no apegado a lo que el gobierno central le a dicho. Entonces, esa era noticias que yo estaba peleando. Mhm. Y por supuesto ya a este punto me resuelva hay grupos por sectores. Ellos los llaman comités y [thinking]. No recuerdo. Consejos comunales. Consejos comunales. Y estos consejos comunales, lo único que hacen es estar evaluando todo lo que hacen las personas de ese sector. Entonces por supuesto el consejo comunal de mi sector no me quería. [riza] Aparte de que no me querían, estaba dando información de todo los que estaba haciendo. Entonces fue y fui identificada. Comenzaron las agresiones. Pasaron por mi casa. Personas vestidas de militares. A este punto no puedo asegurarte si eran de la milicia que es un grupo militar armado que creo el gobierno o eran militares formados en academia. Pero pasaban me amenazaban, lanzaban piedras, botellas. Me llamaban. Me perseguían en el carro. En los tribunales no me dejaban entrar. En las empresas cuando yo iba a trabajar porque tenia mi empresa que prestaba servicios a otras empresas, ponían cadenas en las entradas de las empresas. No dejaron pasar mi personal. No me dejaron entrar a mi. En dos oportunidades me amenazaron con armas. Los colectivos armados me rodearon el carro. No me dejaron bajar del carro. Tenían un arma, me decían que-- siempre lo que me decían era en la calle andamos y en la calle no encontramos. Esa era su amenaza. Solo era en mi contra. Porque yo siempre estaba en la calle. Y distintamente trabajando con empresas o trabajaron como abogada. Entonces, esto fue incrementándose. Incrementándose. Después que tenia a mi hijo, nació en el 2013, yo lo dejaba con mi mama mientras me iba al tribunal o mientras me iba a trabajar y muchas veces me llamaron. ¿Sabes donde esta tu hijo? Cuando llegas a tu casa no lo vas a encontrar. Entonces, era una tras otra. Una tras otra. Y me rallaron el carro. Le pincharon los cauchos. Ósea ya estaban muy fuertes. [emotional, tears] Entonces yo decidí, bueno, voy a salir. Porque ya no era solamente en mi contra. Yo no se, cuando yo estaba en la calle, yo no se que pasaba en mi casa. Y tampoco soy la chica súper poderosa que tenia la capacidad de protegerlo todo. ¿No? Ósea, yo solamente estaba ejerciendo lo que la ley me permitía. Toda la situación que estaba ocurriendo. Pero, muchos como yo simplemente se desaparecieron. Muchas personas aparecieron muertas. Entonces, yo dije no voy a esperar a que eso pase. Y decidí salir del país.
MC: ¿Que año fue que comenzó todas las amenazas sobre ti?
MPI: Mira, eso fue como en el año 2011. Pero desde el año 2011, como te digo, yo no era mama. Y yo tenia mi empresa y las amenazas con grupos, ellos se llaman sindicato de trabajadores Bolivarianos o sindicato de los Bolivarianos de los trabajadores. Algo así. Porque desde que Hugo Chávez tomo la presidencia todo se Bolivariano en Venezuela. Desde que Bolívar fue nuestro libertador y si lo reconocemos por supuesto con toda labor. El quiso hacerlo como mas patriótico. Un sentido de honrado, ¿no? Y de hecho le cambiaron el nombre. Ahora se llama Republica Bolivariano de Venezuela. Entonces, este sindicato de trabajadores bolivarianos eran grupo de personas que no tenían la mínima intención de trabajar solamente iban con los empresarios y querían que les pagaras sin hacer nada. Ese era su, su objetivo. Yo siempre me negué porque pues yo tenia trabajadores que estaban trabajando para redundancia y estaban recibiendo su salario y yo les decía, como yo te voy a pagar a ti si no estas trabajando, que me van a decir mis trabajadores entonces tampoco van a querer trabajar, ¿no? Además, era un desbalance muy grande y porque yo tengo que apoyar a una persona que simplemente quiere sacar dinero de mi caja. Eso se mantuvo por años hasta el punto que yo tuve que contratar otra persona que fuera la que hiciera visitas a las empresas para yo no estar ahí directamente. En ningún momento pague. No se si has escuchado en otros países abecés se llama, ellos hacen como cobro de vacuna. ¿No se si has escuchado esa expresión? Se hace entre la frontera de Colombia y Venezuela los usan mucho la guerrilla colombiana lo usaba en el pasado. Y es con los ganaderos. Le decían un cobro de vacuna. Es que la guerrilla quería una cuota de dinero con el solo hecho de permitirte que tu estés en tu tierra criando ese ganado. Entonces eso se extendió hacia otras partes del país y es lo que este sindicato hacia. Un cobro de vacuna. Algunos pagaron otros no pagaron. Yo fui una de las que no pague y siempre tenia esa persecución. Pero todo se incremento como te dije en el año 2012 cuando Hugo Chávez aparentemente fallese y tomo el poder Nicolás Maduro. En ese momento, todo se puso peor en Venezuela. Ya no era tanto como un socialismo ligero, si no que un socialismo mas dictatorial. Que es lo que se a establecido allá. Y entonces crecen los grupos armados y crece ya el gobierno amenazaba por medio de sus cuerpos de protección que era la policía estatal, la policía local y los, la guardia nacional que serbia como el ejercito. Ya amenazaban atreves de estos entes. De forma directa. Ya no era como--
MC: --escondido--
MPI: Si. Antes era como mas subliminal. Pero ahora ya era directo. Entonces así empezó a partir del año 2012. Y el 2013 se incremento absolutamente cuando hubo las elecciones. Inicialmente quedo Nicolás Maduro como encargado porque era vicepresidente. Pero ya cuando hubo las elecciones de Nicolás Maduro--elecciones presidenciales donde estaban Nicolás Maduro y Henrique Capriles Radonski. A partir de ese momento ya todo exploto y se puso, se agravo la situación de persecución en contra de cualquier persona. Como te dije. En contra de cualquiera que simplemente estaba manifestando en contra del gobierno. Y pues quedarse en Venezuela-- yo quisiera estar en Venezuela. Ósea, no era mi deseo jamás pensé voy a salir de mi país porque a mi me encanta Venezuela. Además, es donde crecí. Es todo lo que conozco. Esta toda mi familia. Pero la situación era, me quedo aquí y no se si me van a poner presa y ahí la simplemente muchas personas y muchos presos políticos que tienen años y simplemente están allí. Ni si quera han tenido juicio porque lo único que hace el gobierno es esta persona me molesta y lo encarcelo. O esta persona me molesta y la desaparezco o simplemente apareció muerta, tuvo accidente, hampa común. Y como yo no quería formar parte de esa estática entonces fue cuando decidí, ok, ya no puedo seguir aquí. Y realmente mi idea de salir del país no era por un tiempo largo. Yo dije voy a salir para que baje la situación como que se olviden de mi un rato y bueno yo después regreso. Pero, mi hijo, el--su papa es ciudadano estadounidense y este grupo de consejo comunal ellos manejan mucha información yo no se como se enteraron que el era ciudadano americano. Y entonces empiezan a aumentar la presión. Al yo salir de Venezuela especialmente para Estados Unidos, ¿que pasa? Lo que maneja el gobierno de Maduro en este caso es que si tu vas a Estados Unidos tu vas hablar con la DEA, con la CIA, eres un informante. Y por supuesto cuando entras, has cometido una traición a la patria tan grande que es lo que te espera es la cárcel. Eso es lo que ellos manejan. Y por supuesto cuando yo salgo, para mi pues, claro me baja la presión por supuesto que mi familia ya, y manteniendo contacto con mi familia allá no vayas a regresar. No vayas a regresar porque a pasado esto, pasaron muchas cosas que definitivamente hicieron imposible para mi regresar porque era evidente que al yo pisar otra vez suelo venezolano, cuando yo presentara mi pasaporto mi iban a poner presa. Eso era lo que iba esperar.
MC: Wow.
MPI: Incluso ahora. Años después. Tengo cinco años fuera de mi país. Seis años. Si yo regreso ahorita es lo que va pasar. [emotional]
MC: Que duro. No me puedo imaginar eso para ti. Que duro es eso. ¿Y que año Mónica es cuando te fuiste de Venezuela y llegaste a los Estados Unidos?
MPI: Yo salí de Venezuela y llegué acá al siete de marzo de 2015. Si.
MC: ¿Y te viniste con tu hijo y tu esposo?
MPI: Solamente mi hijo.
MC: Solo tu hijo.
MPI: Solamente mi hijo porque yo no estoy casada. Nosotros estábamos separados por el momento. De hecho, mi hijo nació en Venezuela. Pero, tuve que hablar con el y decir, el ya vivía acá por muchos años. El vivía muchísimo antes que yo, estuvo aquí. Y hablé con el y le dije definitivamente tengo que ir para allá.
MC: Me interesa saber un poco mas de ese proceso. ¿Como decidiste venirte aquí a Carolina del Norte? ¿Como llegaste aquí a Hickory?
MPI: Ok. Años anteriores, yo había venido acá. Tuve la oportunidad de ir a Atlanta, a Washington. Porque como te dije, yo no tenia una posición alta económicamente en Venezuela, pero era cómoda y tuve la oportunidad de viajar. Entonces, también visite Noruega, visite Portugal. No visite Italia a pesar que mi familia, mis raíces son italianas, pero [riza]. Y cuando vine a Carolina del Norte, me pareció tan tranquilo. Un lugar bello de un clima-- Bueno yo siempre vine cuando estaba como en primavera, es como el clima mas o menos en Venezuela. Y si. Cuando vine, de hecho, ya había comprado una casa siendo turista. Yo vine y compré una casa porque yo dije quiero venir mas veces para acá. Y mi idea era venir y como que irme a conocer el país. Y dije, ya para no tener la angustia de conseguir un hotel, pagar un hotel pues ya tengo un lugar donde llegar. Y tenia mi casa acá en Hickory. Entonces siempre estaba ahí y venia o iba venir. Y ese era otra de las razones por las cuales el gobierno tenia como que su foco en mi. Porque, bueno, ¿porque ella viaja mucho? Porque muchas veces en el aeropuerto me decían porque, abecés me costaba que me dejaban salir. Me revisaban la guardia nacional y todo porque era, ¿que haces tu en Estados Unidos? El imperialismo como ellos les llamaba. Muchas veces si yo voy a comprar equipo para mi empresa, porque a eso, muchos de mis viajas fueron por ese motivo, pero por supuesto no es algo que, es como el gobierno en Cuba. En Cuba ellos, llego un momento que ellos ya no pueden salir y tienen que declarar por qué. De hecho, en Venezuela tu tienes que declarar, por ejemplo, si yo tenia mi tarjeta de crédito, pero mi tarjeta de crédito solamente trabaja en Venezuela. No la puedo usar internacionalmente. Para poderlo usar internacionalmente tenia que pedir cupo de dólares al gobierno o de euros dependiendo donde fuera. Y ellos tenían que pasar una carta, llenar todo las seria de formularios y solicitar permiso al gobierno para que me autorizaran ese dinero. Y dependía del tiempo. Si yo iba a estar un mes, ellos me podían aprobar 300 dólares. O si iba estar cuatro meses ellos me podrían aprobar mil dólares. Todo dependía. En mi ultimo viajé cuando me vine con mi hijo ellos no me aprobaron nada porque yo estaba totalmente vetada. Yo no podía ir a pedir ni un crédito al banco, en ningún banco del estado no pude hacer eso y no pude pedir mi cubro en dólares porque simplemente yo no tenia permiso para hacerlo. Esa es la situación.
MC: Dime un poco mas sobre tu empresa que tenias en Venezuela. Se que eras abogada y dime mas sobre tu empresa.
MPI: Ok. Antes de ser abogada, yo estudié una carrera corta y me gradué en el área de publicidad y mercadeo. Y mi empresa era para prestar servicios a empresas. ¿Que hacíamos? Ministrábamos personal, por ejemplo, peronil de limpieza o personal de mantenimiento de jardines. Y también hacíamos obras civiles. Obras civiles incluía construcción, por ejemplo, una empresa necesitaba remodelar un área de oficina, nosotros lo podíamos hacer. Si necesitaba remodelar o construir un área, una línea de producción, la podíamos hacer. Trabajábamos abecés conjuntamente con otra empresa que hacia toda el área metalúrgica que es todo lo que es línea de transportadores, todo eso. De eso se trataba mi empresa. Y siempre estaba contratando personal. Yo tenia, llegue de tener mas de cien trabajadores porque prestábamos servicios en los campos industriales donde había muchas empresas que estábamos, empresas que hacían vidrios o botellas, embace de vidrio donde esta la mayonesa, la salsa de tomata. En nosotros prestábamos servicios ahí. Donde hacían equipo de protección personal lo que era botas, mascarillas, lentes. Ahí también prestábamos servicio. Tenemos una empresa también donde ellos hacen electros que son estas baritas que usan para soldar. En esa empresa también teníamos personal. Y en esas empresas tenemos personal fijo. Todo el año por muchos años, pero había otras que requerían, por ejemplo, área de hacer mantenimiento a los jardines y se hacían solamente en el área de jardines o solamente un área para pintar. Se suministra personal para pintar. De eso se trataba mi empresa, pero yo siempre quise ser abogada. Fíjate yo estudie publicidad y mercadeo, trabaje en el área de construcción y mantenimiento, pero yo tenia la idea de que yo quiero ser abogada. Porque cuando yo me gradué de, en Venezuela le decimos liceo lo que es el equivalente de high school. Yo decía, bueno, primero voy a trabajar algo porque no quería que mi papa me apoyara en lo que era la universidad y todo. Aunque en Venezuela tenemos universidades publicas y privadas. Pero me fui a trabajar, luego yo misma me pagué la universidad para mi primera carrera. Tenia mi empresa y dije bueno, ya cuando ya tenia mi empresa bien establecida ahora si tengo tiempo y tengo dinero para pagar la universidad para estudiar. Para ser abogada. Y fue cuando estudie para ser abogada. Luego llevaba las dos. Manejaba lo que era mi empresa porque ya pude contratar mas personas, delegar responsabilidades y yo me fui con el derecho, pero en el derecho de familia. Trabajaba mucho con lo que era la procuraduría de niños y niñas adolecentes. Y llevaba las dos. Y después pues dio un vuelto total. Ya no trabajaba con niños si no que ya me iba a tribunales penales. A policías. A fiscalías. Y ya ahí fue cuando se afeo mi carrera [riza]. Si.
MC: Que bueno. Que, y porque decidiste, ¿o convertirte en abogada? ¿Siempre tenias esa, como pasión para trabajar con familias?
MPI: Si. Desde siempre, de hecho, a mi cuando yo estaba estudiando en la escuela en el liceo yo decía, yo quiero ser abogada porque yo quiero estar en un tribunal. A mi me encantaba todo lo que eran las series de policías y abogados tribunales que se presentaban defendiendo a alguien. Presentas todo el caso. Eso me encantaba. Pero después, cuando, bueno no pude estudiarlo porque dije voy a, me gradué, y dije, prefiero trabajar. Quiero trabajar. Y entonces estudie una carrera corta. Simplemente como para crear una base educativa, ¿no? Entonces, luego lo que hice cuando yo tuve la oportunidad estudié para abogada, pero dije no. Creo que no me voy a ir por la parte de los tribunales porque resulta ser un poco peligroso, ¿no? Ya, claro, ya mas adelante te das cuenta de que ciertamente la realidad es otra o no es mas bonita que lo presentan en la televisión. Si estoy defendiendo a alguien que supongamos tenia conexiones con droga y entonces después muchos abogados parecen muertos. Entonces es así como que bueno no se a quien voy a defender o a quien estoy culpando. Mejor no me voy por esa área. Y el área que me gustaba mucho era la de familia. Trabajar con niños fue muy, es un área bien bonita. Es muy triste algunas veces porque tienes que separar niños de sus papas o tienes que ver como te encuentras niños con unos papas que realmente no están calificados para ser papas. Entonces, es dura en ese sentido. Pero es bonita porque te queda la gratificación de que estas haciendo algo por los niños específicamente o por mantener la familia, ¿ok? Lo extraño y o abecés lo gracioso cuando hablo con algunos otros colegas que dice tu te fuiste por el área de familia y no cobrabas. Yo nomas llegue abecés no cobraba. Yo hacia mi trabajo acomunen porque en muchos casos eran familias de bajo recursos. No tienen como pagar un abogado. El abogado en todas partes del mundo es muy costoso. Y abecés el abogado te aprobé el estado no es que no este calificado para hacer el trabajo si no que es simplemente tienen mucho trabajo. Le dan muchos casos y no le dedica el tiempo necesario. Entonces, yo ya tenia una base que era mi empresa que me mantenía económicamente entonces me pude dar el lujo de representar muchas familias sin haber cobrado. Era un trabajo [] pero de verdad muy gratificante [emocional].
MC: Que bueno. Se escucha y lo puedo ver en tu emoción que es algo muy importante para ti.
MPI: Si.
MC: Bueno, cambiando un poquito de tema otra vez. Cuando primero viajaste a Carolina del Norte como turista, ¿era Hickory donde viniste o era otra ciudad aquí en Carolina del Norte?
MPI: No. Yo vine a Raleigh.
MC: ¿A Raleigh?
MPI: Mhm.
MC: Ok.
MPI: Vine a Raleigh y visité Charlotte también. No conocí a Hickory.
MC: ¿Entonces, mi interesa como llegaste a conocer a Hickory?
MPI: Porque el papa de mi hijo vivía y a vivido siempre en Granite Falls. Y pues vine hasta Hickory. Pero realmente mi punto de entrada fue Raleigh. Fue la ciudad que conocí inicialmente. Luego Charlotte, entonces vine a Hickory.
MC: Si.
MPI: Si. Y definitivamente me encanto y me a encantado. [riza]
MC: Y recuérdame, ¿que año es que llegaste a Carolina del Norte?
MPI: 2015.
MC: 2015.
MPI: Cuando ya vine--
MC: []
MPI: Si. Que me traje a mi hijo fue en el año 2015. Siete de marzo 2015. Mhm.
MC: ¿Y eso es cuando llegaste aquí a Hickory?
MPI: A Hickory. Mhm.
MC: Y cuéntame un poco de eso. Tu dices, me imagino, o no se, empezaste desde-- Ya tenias casa aquí me dices, pero en parta de tu carrera, como paso todo eso. ¿Como estas aquí ahorita en El Centro Latino? Cuéntame un poquito sobre donde comenzaste aquí en Hickory?
MPI: Ok. Cuando llegue a Hickory por supuesto no conocía nada [riza]. Yo estaba, me pasaba los días en mi casa. Como traje a mi niño bebe pues estaba en mi casa. Empecé a pintar. Estos [points to pictures on her wall] es parte de lo que empecé a pintar porque dije definitiva no pude ir a estudiar acá o ejercer mi carrera porque no tenia lo estudios acá. Además que no tenia el idioma. Yo lo que sabia de ingles era lo poquito que había aprendido cuando estaba estudiando en el liceo todo high school. Y por nada yo estaba en mi casa. Pero dije, no puedo estar en mi casa. Soy enemiga de estar sin hacer nada [riza]. Y empecé a pintar. Cree una cuenta de Instagram para la pintura y empecé relacionar con personas. Empecé a practicar el ingles porque pues tenia que hacer los posts. Tenia que [riza] escribir en ingles y me fui a Lenoir a una, no recuerdo como se llama, es una oficina donde dan clases de ingles es como una agencia donde dan clases de ingles y tienen cuidado para niños. Entonces, que era lo mas importante porque el CVCC acá en Hickory lo ofrece, pero no tenia el cuidado para niños. Y yo por supuesto nada mas estábamos el y yo. No tenia nadie que me lo cuidara. Entonces allá el estuvo como en un pre pre-K [riza]. Y yo mientras yo estaba en clases de ingles. Ahí conocí varias personas que, tuve la oportunidad de conocer varias personas con las que todavía mantengo contacto. Y luego ya empecé como a soltarme un poquito mas. Luego buscando clases de ingles mas cerca de mi porque yo decía bueno, Lenoir me queda treinta minutos de mi casa. Entonces, buscando clases de ingles mas cerca encontré El Centro Latino. Y si fui al Centro Latino que quedaba realmente muy muy cerca de mi casa me di cuenta fue cuando lo busqué en internet estaba muy cerca de mi casa y luego se mudaron. Pero se mudaron y ya me quedaba mas lejos que era se mudaron para acá donde están ahora. Entonces, una vez vine para preguntar por algún servicio. Luego otra vez. Hasta que me fui involucrando mas porque realmente tengo esa espinita como que me gusta trabajar para la comunidad, ¿no? Y en mi casa estaba como que que puedo hacer para yo relacionarme con algo ayudar a alguien. Entonces pues El Centro Latino fue la oportunidad. Y fue parte de su junta directiva. Me invitaron de formar parte de su junta. Estuve año y medio creo como parte de la junta directiva acá. Eran poquito difícil porque nos reuníamos y yo entendía mas de lo que podía hablar en ingles. Pero, pues me encantaba porque íbamos para eventos y llevamos información de Centro Latino. Lo otro que me gustaba es que yo podía tener a mi hijo durante esos eventos y el, yo creo que es como que lo lleva en la sangre y también lo que a vivido. El le encanta todo esto lo de vamos a ayudar a la gente y vamos a entregar un folleto. Y siempre, siempre me a estado apoyando con eso. Entonces, así fue que empecé en El Centro Latino. Luego me separe por un año que fue el año 2019 porque me enferme. Tuve, me diagnosticaron cáncer de senos. Me operaron. Estuve en tratamiento y aunque no fue fuerte realmente. Puedo decirte que no estuve acostada ni un día [riza]. Me mantuve a pie. Me separe de lo que era El Centro Latino porque para estaba mas involucrada en actividades que yo estaba en capacidad de hacer en ese momento. Y el año pasado siempre me mantuve en contacto con las personas de acá. El año pasado Eddie Marlowe que es el director, el presidente actual de la junta Directiva, y el también es oficial de policía en Long View que es el área donde yo vivo. También oficial de policía contacto con la comunidad en la escuela South West que es donde mi hijo asistía. El un día fue a mi casa y me dijo, oye me gustaría que fueras al Centro Latino y estuvieras en contacto con la chica que esta allá para que ustedes hablen porque ella es bien joven. La persona que estaba acá. Y un poquito tímida. Entonces dice, yo creo que tu puedes ir y hablan a ver como se puede hacer porque bueno estábamos afrentando lo que era la pandemia y todo esto. Pero manteníamos contacto con la comunidad. Y le dije, bueno si. Me gusta la idea. Y vine, pero al poco tiempo ella decidió renunciar porque tuvo una oferta de trabajo en otro lugar y como te digo era así como que un poquito tímida y no le gustaba mucho quizás. Entonces ellos me ofrecieron quedarme acá en el puesto de servicios al cliente. Y yo definitivamente les dije no, yo no puedo hacer eso. ¿Por qué? Bueno, porque yo no hablo ingles. Tiene que ser una persona que hable ingles la que este ahí. Y ellos me dicen, pero tu estas hablando con nosotros. Y nosotros contigo y nos estamos entendiendo. Ósea, si estamos hablando en ingles. Y les dije bueno yo voy hacer el intento. Voy a probar. Y empecé oficialmente el 12 de abril del año pasado, 2021. ¿Y fue así como que después que estaba aquí, ¿ahora que hago? [riza] Pero por que te digo, no importa la formación que yo hubiera tenido legal, ni ningún estudio. Ósea, tener el lenguaje es muy importante y yo no me sentía capas. Pero después dije, si. Yo tengo que poder hacerlo. Y bueno aquí, además yo dije si ellos confían en mi, ¿porque yo no voy a confiar en mi? Y si. Pues aquí estoy casi un año después y me fui a todos los eventos que me invitaron. Trate de hablar con todas las personas en el idioma ingles o español. No importa. Por supuesto mi inglés siempre estoy un poquito mas limitada. A mi me gusta hablar mucho [riza]. Y en inglés abecés me ciento frustrada porque bueno no lo puedo decir. Pero decidí como que, bueno yo lo voy a decir como me salga. Si me entienden muy bien y si no pues yo trato. [riza] Y así e tratado y pues aquí estoy. Así casi, casi un año después. Mhm.
MC: ¿Cuéntame un poquito mas sobre tu posición actual ahorita? ¿Es Servicios al Cliente?
MPI: Si.
MC: ¿Que haces ahora?
MPI: Ellos lo llaman, el titulo del cargo es Client Service Advocate. Y lo que hago acá es básicamente conectar con la comunidad. Soy como que la primera puerta cuando alguien viene acá. Tengo información de recursos que hay en la comunidad no solamente en Hickory si no en zonas aledañas. Sea hasta Charlotte, hasta Concord. Entonces, la personas que vienen a referir un servicio acá tenemos conexiones con abogados, con servicios médicos, con servicios de consejería. Con todo lo que vaya a necesitar cada persona. Y también me encargo de planear algunos eventos. Por ejemplo, feria de empleo o charlas. Recientemente tuvimos una charla en finanzas. También tuvimos una charla con una abogada de inmigración que vino desde Charlotte. Esos son pequeños eventos que yo planeo porque en general necesitamos de la junta directiva y otros comités para crear eventos mas grandes. Pero, me dieron permiso de crear estos pequeños y mantener como que las puertas abiertas para la comunidad. También tenemos clases de ingles para adultos que estamos ofreciendo ahora mismo. Y yo estoy acá me reunió con las maestras. Creamos un plan especial para los estudiantes distintos a lo que se puede ofrecer en otro lugar que vas a estudiar inglés y te dan mas información de gramática. Y bueno, quedo así, como digo esto, ¿como lo digo? Creamos un plan conversacional. Necesitamos que las personas aprendan a ir hablar con la maestra de sus hijos, ir al mercado a ser compras. Ir al medico explicar que me duele algo. Entonces, en eso pasamos las clases y desde octubre 2021 las empezamos y hasta ahora han sido muy exitosas. Y por eso, básicamente es lo que yo hago. Voy a eventos, voy actividades que tengan afuera. Y el plan para este año es ir a iglesias y conversar con ellos y como quizá un parte de su congregación para saber de primera mano que necesita la comunidad del Centro Latino. Ese es el plan para este año. Pero todavía estoy planeando la feria de empleo [riza].
MC: Si.
MPI: Si. Vamos a tener una feria de empleo próximamente y la estoy planeando.
MC: Que bueno. Eso es muy importante para la comunidad aquí especialmente porque si. Yo también mude aquí hace como diez años ahora. Y unas de las cosas que me sorprendió de aquí de Catawba County es que si hay una población grande de latinos.
MPI: Si--
MC: De hispanohablantes aquí. Y otra cosa, en tu opinión Mónica, y no se para ti personalmente o lo que vez en tu trabajo con la comunidad hispana. ¿Que son los recursos que necesitan mas en tu opinión la comunidad hispana que vive aquí en Catawba County o en Carolina del Norte?
MPI: El principal recurso que necesita es el idioma. Porque es como un shocker cuando llegas-- Hay muchas personas que se vienen ya con el idioma ingles. Pero la mayoría no. Entonces, llegar y no saber el idioma es una barrera súper gigante cuando las personas llegan acá. Y por otro es el conocimiento de todos los recursos que puedan existir en el estado o en el condado y de cual te puedes beneficiar. Eso es algo que por eso estamos trabajando acá en El Centro Latino para poder decirle a la comunidad, mira, puedes recurrir a este lugar o puedes obtener este recurso porque pues, cuando uno llega aquí y te lo digo yo particularmente que vengo de otro país, sin conocer el idioma, sin conocer la cultura, llego aquí y digo, me siento totalmente perdida. Porque no me atrevo ni abrir la puerta porque quizá la persona que viva alrededor de mi casa me va decir algo y no lo voy a poder entender. No se si esta legalmente correcto hacer alguna cosa o no. Entonces, el recurso mas vital que podemos ofrecer a las personas que están llegando es educativo. 100%. En cuanto el idioma, en cuanto recursos, en cuanto ¿que puedes hacer y que no? Porque Latinoamérica es totalmente diferente. Entonces, a lo mejor yo en Venezuela solía tener el perro suelto corriendo, pero aquí no. Entonces me puedo meter en un problema. Entonces estar, educar a las personas en como es esta cultura. Como es este país. Y alguna labor que toma mucho tiempo también porque personas que se resisten al cambio aun cuando están aquí. Ellos dicen pues así e sido toda mi vida y así voy a seguir, pero definitivamente no. Tenemos que adaptarnos a este lugar que nos esta abriendo las puertas, que nos esta bridando oportunidades, nos cobija y nos protege, pero debemos adaptarnos y conocer como es aquí. ¿Como es esta nueva vida que ahora me a tocado? Ese es realmente el recurso primordial que nosotros podemos ofrecer.
MC: Y bueno, una ultima pregunta para ti. ¿Te piensas quedar aquí en Catawba County? Y bueno, cuéntame tus pensamientos sobre eso.
MPI: Bueno, yo espero y me gustaría porque como te dije por toda esta situación en Venezuela yo estoy aquí como asilo político y todavía estoy aquí. Fui a mi entrevista y todo. Todavía estoy, tengo tres años esperando por una respuesta. Y espero que sea afirmativo porque si definitivamente estoy enamorada de este lugar porque--y yo creo que si me permiten quedarme yo me quedo aquí en este condado. Me gusta por supuesto Charlotte, Asheville, Atlanta. Son ciudades grandes y no me gusta la vida como que apurada, agitada de esas ciudades. Quizás hay mas oportunidades, quizás hay mas recursos. Pero aquí me gusta. Aquí todo es mas tranquilo, es un lugar excelente para que los niños crezcan. Tienen excelentes escuelas, maestros. Yo que tuve la oportunidad de estar muy con el sistema de salud por mi condición de salud, maravilloso. Todas a las personas que te encuentras. Ósea, definitivamente yo me quedaría aquí [riza]. Si me lo permiten. Y tener una, como un plan B no lo tengo [riza]. Hasta ahora no lo tengo.
MC: Es lo que te iba preguntar. ¿Que sigue para ti? Pero--
MPI: Si, ósea un plan B donde irme, no. Ahorita, me estoy formado en el área de inmigración. Y hace cuando te digo comencé a pintar. También tomé un curso en el área de inmigración porque pues era lo que mi formación legal me permitía porque la otra opción es ir a la universidad y como te dije mi idioma no estaba muy-- Y todavía no [riza]. Todavía me comunico, pero no, no todavía fluidamente. Entonces, me estoy formando en el área de inmigración porque definitivamente el-- seguiré ayudando a otras personas cuando llegan acá. Es mi vicio. Eso es lo que yo quiero seguir haciendo. Mhm. Seguir ayudando. También estoy enseñando español. No es algo para El Centro Latino, es algo que estoy haciendo en mi tiempo extra en una iglesia cerca de, en el área de Long View donde vivo. Y estoy enamorada de esas clases también porque no es, no es la idea de que bueno, como yo hablo español yo quiero que hables español para yo ya no hablar ingles, no. Si no es explicar un poquito de la variedad de culturas que tenemos aquí. Este país es súper rico en culturas. Y que bonito es cuando todos no podemos integrar y definitivamente eliminar esa barrer del idioma es primero que tenemos que hacer. Entonces, yo como hispana aprender inglés y si tengo la oportunidad de enseñar español y que nos podamos unir y conversar y yo ensenar mi cultura y aprender de la cultura aquí definitivamente eso es primordial. Y si lo puedo hacer y esta en mis manos pues yo lo voy a seguir asiendo.
MC: Claro que si. Bueno, son todas las preguntas que tengo para ti. ¿No se si quieres decir algo mas o?
MPI: Bueno pues sobre todo si quiero darte las gracias por esta oportunidad. Me encanta el proyecto que estas haciendo y que esta llevando acabo la universidad porque no solamente es lo que podemos decirte en este momento si no que es dejarlo gravado para el futuro las personas que generaciones futuras que vayan hacer alguna investigación o que simplemente quieren saber un poquito, bueno como era en el 2021? [Riza] Como era en el 2022? Y como para que yo espero y confió en que el futuro sea mucho mejor. Y que esa persona diga, wow. Hemos crecido. Hemos mejorado desde lo que se ofrecía en aquel momento hasta que se ofrece ahora. Eso seria maravilloso.
MC: Si. Bueno Mónica, muchas gracias. Si. Muchas gracias.
MPI: Claro que si.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Interviewee Date of Birth
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Title
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R-0999 -- Pagnini-Ibarra, Mónica.
Description
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Monica Pagnini-Ibarra is a former business owner and family lawyer from Maracay, Venezuela and currently serves as the Client Services Advocate at El Centro Latino in Hickory, North Carolina. Monica begins the interview by sharing what life was like for her and her family living in Maracay, Venezuela and recounts her favorite childhood memories. She opens up about the political insecurities, violence, and turmoil she and her family faced in recent years in Venezuela. Mónica goes in depth about the political insecurity she experienced, the threats she received for her partaking in legal protests, and how those threats ultimately led her to flee her native country in 2015. Mónica also tells me about the successful business she started in Venezuela and her steps to becoming a family lawyer and serving in tribunal courts. She then shares what life was like for her in North Carolina after fleeing her country and explains the challenges she faced starting a new life here. Mónica discusses her current role at El Centro Latino and describes the workshops and special events she helps create for the community. She closes the interview by speaking on the resources she believes are most needed by the Spanish-speaking community and what she has planned next.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
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No restrictions. Open to research
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2022-03-28
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R0999_Audio.mp3
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29181">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>