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https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/03ed2a3e93d62c399c8b6e2d14fbe2d4.mp3
bce02081f1f7e2a6fa0e034569567414
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/898e4679b375285170cc033540bd9ea0.pdf
7a42a6270892b972baace03c80a9ea5c
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0989
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
2018-10-12
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Quiñones, Vicky Muñiz.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Professors
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1946
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
San Juan -- Puerto Rico
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Durham -- Durham County --North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-66.116666 18.465299),1946,1;POINT(-78.901805 35.996653),2018,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Graham, Alexandra.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Spanish
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
This interview was conducted in Spanish by interviewer Alexandra Graham with interviewee Dr. Vicky Muñiz Quiñones. Throughout the interview, Dr. Muñiz Quiñones tells us about her history in education as a student and then as a professor. She also recounts to us a brief history of migration from Puerto Rico to the contiguous United States, although she does not consider Puerto Rico to be part of the United States. She explains why she believes this and then gives us an account of why many Puerto Ricans are moving to North Carolina, which is now the state with the twelfth largest Puerto Rican population. Dr. Muñiz Quiñones then gives us a brief account of her personal migration story from Puerto Rico after Hurricane Maria in 2017. She describes the difficulties of leaving behind her friends and colleagues at the University of Puerto Rico and moving to North Carolina. She tells us about how she initially felt disoriented but slowly began regaining a sense of independence after several months.Dr. Vicky Muñiz Quiñones was born in San Juan, Puerto Rico and relocated to North Carolina in 2017. She worked for 25 years at the University of Puerto Rico where she was a professor and Dean of General Studies. Dr. Muñiz Quiñones earned her doctorate in Urban Social Geography at Syracuse University.
The interviewer, Alexandra Graham, is a graduate student at UNC. She is working on her Master of Arts in Teaching with a specialty in Elementary Education and teaching English as a Second Language (ESL). She recently graduated from UNC with a degree in Hispanic Linguistics and a second major in Economics. Spanish is her second language.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Vicky Muñiz Quiñones, 12 October 2018, R-0989, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/28576
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Adult Education; Media; Migratory Experience; University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill; Integration and segregation; Climate Change
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
[00:00:01] Alexandra Graham: Hola, estamos aquí con Vicky Muñiz. ¿Esta (inaudible) así? Vamos a empezar con la entrevista. [00:00:07] ¿Podíamos, podíamos empezar con un relato de su trabajo en la Universidad de Puerto Rico y también su área de estudio?
[00:00:14] Vicky Muñiz: Si. Yo trabajé durante veinticinco años en la Universidad de Puerto Rico. Me retiré en agosto del año pasado justamente antes del huracán María. En la universidad enseñaba Ciencias Sociales, Estudios Urbanos, Estudios sobre Géneros, Estudios sobre Migración y sobre el Espacio.
En la universidad estaba afiliada principalmente a la Facultad de Estudios Generales, que es la facultad a la cual llegan todos los estudiantes que van a estudiar en el Recinto de Rio Piedras y allí comienzan su… su carrera. Tuve la oportunidad de trabajar con, con los estudiantes que llegaban - los… los “freshmen” y que estudiaban cualquier carrera. Mi entrenamiento como geógrafa fue muy útil porque los Estudios Generales tienen una perspectiva interdisciplinaria y la Geografía también. Hice mis Estudios Graduados - tanto maestría como doctorado en la Universidad de Syracuse. Hice Urban Social Geography with emphasis on Gender and Social and Ethnic Minorities. El título de mi disertación es “The Defense of the Neighborhood as a Response to Urban Revitalization and Gentrification: Puerto Rican Women’s Struggle in Sunset Park”. En la disertación trabajé género, minorías étnicas y desarrollo urbano y asuntos relacionados con el espacio. En los cursos trataba asuntos de desigualdad, globalización, desarrollo económico… especialmente de Puerto Rico y especialmente a partir del siglo diecinueve, el fin de la colonia española, la invasión estadounidense y el cambio de soberanía hasta el presente.
La mayor parte del tiempo fui profesora, pero en los últimos cinco años estuve en posiciones administrativas. Fui directora del Departamento de Ciencias Sociales y luego decana de Facultad donde pude promover proyectos que me interesaban mucho como el “Higher Education for Prisoners Project” y la creación de un programa sub graduado y graduado sobre afro descendencia. También, mientras trabajaba en mi disertación, trabajé en la, la ciudad de Nueva York, donde dirigí… fui líder comunitaria e hice mucho trabajo con la comunidad puertorriqueña y dominicana en el área de vivienda y en el área de educación. Dirigí dos centros que trabajaban esos temas en el barrio de Sunset Park en Brooklyn. Experimenté discrimen, sobre todo en la vivienda, o sea que conozco de primera mano lo que sufren muchos puertorriqueños… y creo que eso más o menos cubre (la primera pregunta).
AG: Que importante trabajo. Gracias por decirme un poco de eso.
VM: Gracias.
AG: ¿Vamos a cambiar el tema un poquito y podría usted decirnos como inmigrante, [00:04:27] cuales son algunas razones por las que las personas se han mudado de Puerto Rico a los Estados Unidos y a otros países en las pasadas décadas y… y también por qué, por qué usted no considera usted Puerto Rico como parte de los Estados Unidos?
VM: Bueno, voy a empezar por la segunda parte porque creo que conecta mejor.
AG: Okay, perfecto.
VM: Yo considero que Puerto Rico es una colonia de Estados Unidos. Aunque legalmente somos una posesión de Estados Unidos no somos parte de Estados Unidos. En Puerto Rico existe mucha gente que desean que Puerto Rico pueda convertirse en estado, pero hay otras personas que desean mantener las relaciones coloniales que existen en este momento con algunos cambios, que tengamos un poco más de control sobre nuestros asuntos. Pero también abemos otros que entendemos que lo que Puerto Rico debe de hacer es independizarse… seguir un camino con soberanía propia que le permita decidir sus asuntos porque nosotros tenemos una historia y una cultura muy diferente. Eso no significa que no apreciemos a los Estados Unidos como apreciamos a otros países, pero nos gustaría ser parte de la comunidad internacional de países soberanos. Pero, por ser colonia de Estados Unidos desde 1898 y antes de España, hemos estado en constante movimiento.
Razones para abreviar (la migración a los Estados Unidos) pues mayormente son razones de trabajo. La gente busca oportunidades de empleo fuera de nuestra isla. Muchas veces también es por razones familiares… seguir a los que ya se han ido. En esta época más reciente, por supuesto, la devastación del huracán forzó a muchos puertorriqueños, como a mi persona, a salir porque las condiciones en Puerto Rico no nos permitían quedarnos. Los puertorriqueños en época de España, ya habían comenzado a emigrar a Estados Unidos. En aquel momento emigraban mayormente porque estaban en contra del régimen español. Eran marinos mercantes que trabajaban con la carga que iba entre Estados Unidos y Puerto Rico o eran exiliados por estar en oposición a Estados Unidos. También había un grupo de puertorriqueños que estaba compuesto de tabaqueros. Trabajaban en el tabaco. Los primeros asentamientos fueron en New Orleans, en New York City y en Tampa, Florida. En Tampa estaban los tabaqueros. Cuando Estados Unidos… cuando hay el cambio de soberanía y Estados Unidos toma control de Puerto Rico, la migración se va hacia Estados Unidos, hacia la Ciudad de Nueva York principalmente, porque hay unos cambios… unas transformaciones estructurales en Puerto Rico que lleva a cabo Estados Unidos para acomodar al capital agrícola.
Las transformaciones conllevan un cambio de una economía de subsistencia a una economía para la exportación y eso deja a muchos puertorriqueños sin trabajo. Al estar sin trabajo, empiezan a salir de la isla. Ya desde ese momento se empieza hablar de que Puerto Rico esta sobrepoblado, utilizando teorías maltusianas. No lo había estado bajo España unos meses antes, pero era la forma de explicar que había un excedente de población laboral que no se podía emplear. Así que los puertorriqueños empiezan a salir a América Latina, a Hawái. Hay como cinco mil puertorriqueños que se van a trabajar en las plantaciones azucareras en Hawái. Además, hay un huracán, el huracán San Ciriaco - nuevamente otro huracán - que causa mucha devastación en la agricultura y…Puerto Rico se queda sin producción azucarera para suplir la demanda internacional. Hawái, que esta en el otro lado…esta en el Pacifico, por su lado tiene una gran demanda de azúcar y necesita trabajadores. Así que muchos van para allá. Y el resto llega a los Estados Unidos buscando trabajo.
Más adelante, en 1917 se aprueba la Ley Jones que tiene dos elementos importantes. Un elemento es que nos obliga a utilizar barcos estadounidenses para transportar mercancía entre Estados Unidos y Puerto Rico. Esas son las leyes de cabotaje. Pero por el otro lado también, nos obliga a servir en las fuerzas armadas. Algunos dirían que se concede, otros diríamos se impone, la ciudadanía de Estados Unidos y por lo tanto los hombres puertorriqueños en aquel momento tienen obligatoriamente que servir en las fuerzas armadas. Desde entonces, los puertorriqueños han estado en todas las guerras en las cuales Estados Unidos ha participado. Hoy en día seguimos luchando, como lo hicimos en aquel momento, porque las leyes de cabotaje no apliquen a Puerto Rico, ya que encárese toda la producción. El ochenta y cinco por ciento de todo de lo que nosotros consumimos llega por barco por lo que nuestro costo de vida se, se encárese.
Para mediados del siglo pasado, después de la segunda guerra mundial, en Puerto Rico se hicieron otros cambios estructurales. Se comenzó el proceso de industrialización para que las industrias… las manufactureras de Estados Unidos, el capital manufacturero de Estados Unidos, encontrara trabajo barato. Es decir, los puertorriqueños trabajaban por unos salarios muy bajos y eso les permitió a muchas compañías transferir sus operaciones a Puerto Rico. Entiendo que fue el comienzo de lo que hoy llamamos Globalización, pero en Puerto Rico se hizo primero. Al industrializar a Puerto Rico como la industria necesita menos trabajadores que la agricultura, por lo tanto, hubo otro momento de expulsión de trabajadores del mercado de trabajo y muchos de los trabajadores empezaron a emigrar. Ya tenían la facilidad también de viajar a Estados Unidos porque la ciudadanía les permitía hacerlo sin pasaporte, visa, etcétera. Así que muchos empezaron a emigrar.
El lugar preferido fue la Ciudad de Nueva York. Es decir, los puertorriqueños, como muchos migrantes, van donde ya hay algunos compatriotas o personas conocidas viviendo. Llegaron a Nueva York. También trabajaron en los campos agrícolas en los estados cercanos a Nueva York. Por lo tanto, empezó a dispersarse la población en el noreste de Estados Unidos, Pennsylvania, Connecticut, Massachusetts, etcétera… New Jersey. Pero, la Ciudad de Nueva York fue el lugar principal y fue por razones económicas. De hecho, hay un trabajo muy importante del Center for Puerto Rican Studies de Hunter College que se llama “Labor Migration under Capitalism” que recoge toda esta historia y aunque ya tiene bastantes años, todavía explica muy bien lo que causó la migración que fue después de la segunda guerra mundial en que todo el mundo… sobre todo el mundo occidental, se estaba reorganizando económicamente. Eso fue a mediados de siglo. Luego podemos hablar de la migración de este siglo que esta relacionada con la deuda de Puerto Rico.
La deuda que tiene Puerto Rico, que ha causado una crisis comenzó en las últimas décadas del siglo pasado cuando los gobernantes tomaban prestado para cuadrar el presupuesto y cumplir promesas de campaña, sobre todo obras de infraestructura costosísimas. Sin embargo, la deuda mayor fue cuando Estados Unidos suspendió las leyes que habían protegido a las empresas estadounidenses radicadas en Puerto Rico, las conocidas como 936, refiriéndose a la sección de la ley de rentas internas federal que eximia de pagar impuestos sobre las ganancias a las corporaciones estadounidenses radicadas en Puerto Rico. Al eliminar esas leyes, muchas de esas empresas se fueron de Puerto Rico y nuevamente llevo a desempleo. Para seguir ofreciendo muchos servicios que antes se ofrecían, los gobiernos del 1997 en adelante comenzaron hacer muchos préstamos y la deuda fue aumentando hasta el día de hoy. Actualmente esta situación ha desembocado en una crisis muy grande porque no se puede pagar la deuda, lo que ha llevado a una nueva migración. Pero también, antes de eso, desde Nueva York y desde el noreste, y en los estados del centro: Chicago, Ohio…ya existían comunidades puertorriqueñas muy grandes. En Chicago y en Ohio los puertorriqueños trabajaban en manufactura relacionada, por ejemplo, con el acero y la industria automovilística mientras en Nueva York era más bien la industria de textiles. Los puertorriqueños en el noreste empiezan también a sentir el impacto de los cambios que se están llevando a cabo en la economía mundial… empiezan a perder sus empleos a la misma vez que los procesos del desarrollo urbano, sobre todo gentrificación va expulsando a los puertorriqueños de sus viviendas y sus barrios. Los puertorriqueños habían logrado asentarse en vecindarios o barrios como comunidades. En la Ciudad de Nueva York se conoce mucho East Harlem o Spanish Harlem, Loisaida, en el Bronx. En Brooklyn, donde yo viví por once a siete años, había comunidades puertorriqueñas o barrios puertorriqueños de larga duración. Desde los ‘70 empieza a observarse un proceso de desplazamiento. Llega el momento en que no tienen a donde ir y empiezan a salir del noreste. De la misma manera, salen porque algunos han mejorado su situación económica y quieren lugares donde haya mejor clima y donde haya mejor calidad de vida. Así es que empezamos a ver un movimiento hacia el sur de Estados Unidos con Florida y Texas, pero sobretodo Florida, como el lugar principal de migración interna. Esto… y bueno, también a… a Carolina del Norte.
AG: Si.
VM: [00:18:48] La historia de Carolina del Norte es otra. La digo dentro de unos minutos, pero… o sea de los 70 en adelante se va viendo un movimiento de puertorriqueños hacia otros lugares. En los 2000 los puertorriqueños siguen saliendo de Puerto Rico por las razones que había mencionado de la deuda. El huracán del 2017 motiva otro gran desplazamiento de puertorriqueños a Estados Unidos, porque son devastadas todas las comunicaciones, las vías públicas y la economía, sobretodo como consecuencia de la caída del sistema eléctrico. Los que tienen niños, en busca de escuelas, los que tienen personas mayores para que puedan tener acceso a cuidados médicos, personas buscando trabajo porque las empresas en las que trabajaban no están operando en las condiciones en la que ha quedado Puerto Rico, y estudiantes universitarios también y muchos, no todos, se quedan al terminar sus estudios. Esas también son razones para establecerse aquí. ¿Decía de North Carolina…porque están los puertorriqueños en North Carolina?
AG: Si.
[00:20:43] VM: Pues mucha gente piensa que es en los ‘40 y ‘50… en realidad los puertorriqueños empezaron a emigrar a North Carolina, Carolina del Norte (en) 1918. ¿Ya eran ciudadanos y cuando en 1918 comienza la construcción del Fort Bragg en Cumberland, creo que es en el condado de Cumberland, reclutan a puertorriqueños en la isla porque son mano de obra barata… no? Los traen a Carolina del Norte, los ponen a trabajar. Una veintena de puertorriqueños que están trabajando en el fuerte mueren en una, en un brote de influenza y están enterrados en el cementerio de Fort Bragg. Otros puertorriqueños terminan su trabajo y regresan a Puerto Rico y otros se quedan aquí. Así empieza entonces a construirse una comunidad de puertorriqueños en los alrededores de Fort Bragg. O sea, van a vivir en las afueras. En ese momento son 4000, un poco más de 4000, puertorriqueños los que traen y con el tiempo como ya Puerto Rico participa en las fuerzas armadas llegan a Fort Bragg para propósitos de entrenamiento y se van quedando. Una vez terminan su compromiso con el ejército muchos se quedan. Los descendientes de esos puertorriqueños, nacidos en muchas ocasiones aquí, también se quedan y empiezan a dispersarse en el resto del estado. Así es que tenemos… que, aunque se establecen primero en Fort Bragg, tenemos ahora puertorriqueños en todas partes de North Carolina o en muchas partes de North Carolina. Aunque no es común tener barrios puertorriqueños. Es decir, tener a los puertorriqueños viviendo todos en un mismo vecindario, en una misma área. Esa es una de las particularidades que creo que se debe de estudiar… porque esa es la impresión que hay de que los puertorriqueños viven muy dispersos. En estos momentos, la mayor parte de los puertorriqueños viven en el área de Cumberland y del fuerte, en el Triangle Area, y en, en Charlotte. Según entiendo fueron alrededor de 135 los que llegaron después del huracán. Que no es mucho comparado con los que llegaron a Orlando, que se calcula fueron mas de 150,000 mil. Pero, de todas maneras, añaden a esta población que ha ido en crecimiento y como decías anteriormente, North Carolina se ha convertido en el decimosegundo-
AG: Si.
VM: …estado con mayor población de puertorriqueños. Así que, en resumen: razones laborales, razones de seguir a familiares, razones también de salud, muchos vienen buscando… atención medica, mejor de la que se ha recibido en Puerto Rico.
AG: Y entonces ha sido un gran aumento en los pasados diez años de la población puertorriqueña, entonces aparte de, del hur, hur, hurican, ¿huricán?
VM: Huracán.
AG: Huracán. ¡Gracias! [00:25:12] A parte de esto… que cree que son las razones por eso en los últimos diez años?
VM: En los últimos diez años es buscando trabajo como decía [interrupción inaudible] anteriormente, el problema de la deuda…
AG: Si.
VM: ¿Verdad? Que viene, sobre todo a partir del 2007 cuando empezó una recesión económica en Puerto Rico y desde ese momento ha habido mucho, mucha migración hacia Estados Unidos y North Carolina ha atraído porque muchos m-bueno porque ya tienen familiares aquí.
AG: Uh huh.
VM: ¿O conocidos, esa es una razón… [inaudible] y los migrantes… verdad? Siempre tratan- hay el que va solito a aventurarse, pero luego muchos le siguen. Así que en estos momentos muchos puertorriqueños sencillamente están siguiendo a los que vinieron anteriormente. Algunos, como decía, están el Research Triangle, pues un área de varias universidades y muchos vienen a estudiar y terminan quedándose o ya habiendo tenido la experiencia de estudios aquí, regresan a Puerto Rico y luego buscan trabajo en esta área. Conozco algunos que así ha sido el caso, que se han quedado o que han regresado al área porque estudiaron aquí. Entiendo que también esta es un área donde hay muchos servicios de salud que están atrayendo a puertorriqueños y sobretodo mucha gente que busca lugares más tranquilos para vivir, que los lugares tradicionales en el noreste, incluso en Orlando, en Florida, buscan lugares más tranquilos. Así que esas son las razones que yo he podido… conocer a través de otros puertorriqueños que han, han venido.
AG: Entonces la historia es muy larga [se ríe].
VM: Si, si.
AG: ¡Gracias!
VM: Creemos, creemos que es muy reciente, pero es…
AG: Si, muy larga. ¿Entonces esta usted familiarizada con las comunidades militares de puertorriqueños en el este de Carolina del Norte?
VM: Realmente no. Conozco que esta el Camp Lejeune un poquito más, creo, que al este y más en la costa, pero eso es un Marine, Marine Air Force base… los puertorriqueños tienden a estar más en el Army y en todo caso en el Air Force, creo yo por lo que oigo. La mayor parte de los puertorriqueños están en Fort Bragg y hacen sus comunidades o sus viviendas cerca de Fort Bragg. Los que conozco… precisamente ayer estuve con una persona que trabajo hasta hace dos semanas en Fort Bragg, era civil, pero trabajaba allí. El me dice que no conoce mucha gente puertorriqueña en Fayetteville. Sabe que existen. Hay un festival puertorriqueño y una parada puertorriqueña, pero no conozco sobre ello, más allá de lo que te comentaba anteriormente, y si sé que muchos puertorriqueños que han trabajado en la base. O sea, no solamente van para entrenamientos sino que se quedan, trabajan, tienen posiciones laborales, de dirección, de entrenamiento- que entrenan a los soldados que llegan de distintos lugares… pero no, no conozco mucho más.
AG: Okay. ¿Y sabe cuando originaron los grupos?
VM: 1918.
AG: 18.
VM: Cuando vinieron a…
AG: Okay.
VM: …a, a trabajar en la construcción del fuerte.
AG: Okay, gracias. Y cambiando el tema, un poquito otra vez, cual ha sido su experiencia o la de otros que se han mudado de Puerto Rico a Nort- North Carolina recientemente después del devastador huracán del año pasado… si, ¿[00:30:03] cual ha sido la experiencia?
VM: Bueno [aplaude y hay risa de respuesta], yo llegue en octubre, mediados de octubre. Muy traumatizada…
AG: Si.
VM: …por la experiencia que había tenido en Puerto Rico. Yo viví la experiencia del huracán sola y quedé muy, muy afectada. En los primeros tres meses, de mediados de octubre a mediados de enero, me quedé viviendo en casa de mi hija y aunque recibía mucho apoyo de parte de ella y de la familia - ella, mis dos nietas y su esposo - esos primeros tres meses fueron unos meses en los que tuve que trabajar conmigo misma, creo que todavía estoy haciéndolo, por el trauma que sentía después del huracán. Me sentía desorientada, vulnerable, lloraba, era incapaz de tomar decisiones sola como las había [despeja su garganta] podido tomar anteriormente. Me sentía aislada, porque, aunque estaba en familia, era solamente con ellos, no tenia amigos, no tenia apoyo institucional, me había jubilado, retirado del trabajo. No tenia otras personas que me apoyaran con excepción, tengo que decir, de la oficina de esta oficina.
AG: ¿Instituto del Estudio de las Américas?
VM: Global- de las Américas, que mi hija trabaja aquí y a través de ella conocí algunas de las otras personas que trabajan y de ellas recibí apoyo- incluyendo su director Louis Pérez que me permitió usar facilidades para colaborar en un proyecto que vinculaba a Puerto Rico con North Carolina. Puedo hablar de eso más tarde. Aparte de eso, también parte de la experiencia era que había perdido toda mi independencia. Yo era una mujer, como decía antes, yo había estado trabajando hasta agosto, había trabajado en posiciones de importancia en las que tomaba decisiones que impactaban a mucha gente. Tenía el respeto de la comunidad académica, tenía cierta autoridad. Y aquí llego y soy prácticamente invisible. Así que eso me afecto mucho y tampoco tenia formas de moverme para tratar de conocer gente y hacerme conocer por otras personas. Así que eso caracterizo mis primeros tres meses. Luego, los siguientes cuatro meses que fue de enero a mayo, me movía ya… ya para ese momento tomé la decisión de quedarme. O sea, cuando yo llegue a North Carolina, como muchos de los que salimos de Puerto Rico en el primer momento, salí con la idea de que esto era algo temporero en lo que se resolvían- mejoraban las condiciones en Puerto Rico. Y de hecho, muchos de los que se fueron a Orlando, que fueron tantos, muchos ya han regresado, verdad… pero en el caso mío, pues quizás por la edad y la situación laboral mía, ya que me había retirado del mercado laboral… y el hecho de que yo tenia en mente que me iba a reunir con mi hija más adelante, lo único que no esperaba que fuera tan pronto, yo esperaba que pasaran cinco años, pero en ese momento decidí que ya que estaba aquí, me quedaba. Así que yo no se hasta que punto mi experiencia es la de otros, pero yo creo que quizás, aunque sean distintas las razones, muchos quizás se quedaban… porque encontraban trabajo y se quedaban o porque se acostumbraban a la forma de vivir y se quedaban o porque los niños estaban en la escuela y no querían trastocar las experiencias que sus hijos estaban teniendo. En el caso mío, fue porque ya yo iba hacerlo, lo iba hacer más adelante y lo que hice fue… quedarme. Entonces habiendo tomado la decisión de quedarme, busqué un lugar independiente y empecé a establecerme, pero tenia muy poco… mis cosas estaban en Puerto Rico.
AG: Si…
VM: Yo cerré la puerta de mi casa con llave cuando me fui y me vine para acá. Todo se quedo allá. Así es que, al empezar a establecerme, lo que tenia era espacio vacío y eso pues no ayudaba a darme la estabilidad y el sentido de pertenencia que necesitaba para considerar a North Carolina mi nuevo hogar.
VM: O sea que todavía yo tenia un pie en Puerto Rico y un pie acá. El clima para mi también fue muy difícil porque estamos hablando de mediados de enero a mediados de mayo. Es decir que esos meses fueron los meses de invierno y como muchos otros puertorriqueños con los cuales hemos- he hablado, llegamos equivocados. Creíamos que el clima aquí iba a ser mucho más benigno y no se si es que fue este año, pero encontramos que fue fuerte el frio y fue largo. Mas largo el invierno de lo que esperábamos…
AG: Si.
VM: [00:37:07] En la isla tenemos sol todo el año. Tenemos unas temperaturas agradables todo el año y aunque es un lugar húmedo que para muchas personas de acá es difícil de tolerar, nosotros estamos acostumbrados… y una brisa del mar… que nos mantiene las temperaturas agradables y el clima es algo que para nosotros los puertorriqueños es… y yo diría que, para los caribeños, es difícil de acostumbrarse. Así que esos primeros meses… de este año ya estaba en un lugar aparte, propio, pero aun así fueron meses de mucha adaptación. Tuve varias situaciones que me ayudaron a sobre llevarlo. Uno, tengo que decir fue el apoyo de una compañera, de una colega, una compañera aquí de esta oficina que se involucro conmigo en un proyecto cotidia- domestico de cambiarle el tapizado a una silla y, y fue muy agradable porque lo hicimos juntas. Ella lo hizo principalmente…
AG: [Se ríe]…
VM: …pero me dio la oportunidad de compartir con ella, irla conociendo, que ella me conociera a mi y de ir saliendo del marco estricto de mi familia. También empecé a dedicarle tiempo, más tiempo a solas, independiente de mi hija, a mis nietas y eso pues fue muy bueno porque yo no las conocía. Ellas iban solo dos veces, dos semanas al año a Puerto Rico.
AG: Si.
VM: Yo no llegue a conocerlas bien a ellas cuando estuve viviendo en la casa… pues estaban los padres. Así que me gusta más cuando estoy yo sola con ellas, tengo oportunidad de interactuar mejor. Y también tuve la oportunidad de presentar un papel sobre el impacto del huracán María aquí y sobre la experiencia que había tenido y fue una experiencia que me hacía falta porque he estado alejada de todo tipo de trabajo académico, de análisis y de estudio profundo y tener esa oportunidad, pues también me levanto un poco el espíritu. A mediados de mayo, llego mi carro y llegaron algunas de mis pertenencias y ya ha pasado solamente un mes, pero en este mes mi vida ha ido mejorando mucho. Me siento más en control de mi vida. Me siento que puedo… le he dado forma al apartamento. Ya es un hogar… no me siento tan aislada porque puedo salir, me puedo mover. Estoy tomando clases de yoga, estoy haciendo line dancing, voy a la librería, a la biblioteca, voy a la, hacer mis compras. Todo eso me da control y a la misma vez me permite romper con el aislamiento en el que estaba viviendo. He podido conocer algunos puertorriqueños y continúo haciendo actividades, involucrada en actividades de ayuda a Puerto Rico que son creo que tres: una, un proyecto de adopción de escuelas en el que vinculamos escuelas de Estados Unidos con escuelas en Puerto Rico para que ofrezcan ayuda y sirvan de contacto para personas que de alguna manera quieren o visitar a Puerto Rico o ayudar a Puerto Rico de alguna manera. Así que este último mes ha sido, ya empiezo a sentirme… pero yo creo que el proceso de adaptación de cualquier migrante es un proceso lento, duro. Y el hecho de que aquí los puertorriqueños están tan dispersos, pues no los tengo, no era… Yo vivía en Nueva York y yo llegué a Nueva York también sin carro, pero allí tenía trabajo y transportación pública, bueno, que me conectaba muy bien. Pero también vivía en una comunidad, en un barrio puertorriqueño. Yo salía a la calle y me encontraba con otros puertorriqueños y a todas partes que yo iba me encontraba con otros puertorriqueños. Además, mi trabajo me permitía contribuir al bienestar de mi comunidad.
AG: Muy diferente aquí.
VM: Muy diferente aquí, si.
AG: Gracias. Muchas gracias… Una pregunta es, es la experiencia de reunificación para los puertorriqueños que han, que se han mudado después del…
VM: Del huracán.
AG: ¿Del huracán, [00:42:39] es común esa experiencia?
VM: Yo creo que aquí, pues como te iba diciendo, es distinta la manera en que nos establecemos, pero ahora también hay unos medios para mantenernos comunicados que no existían cuando yo me establecí en Nueva York. Hay varios- en cada ciudad hay páginas en Facebook de puertorriqueños en Fayetteville, puertorriqueños en Charlotte, puertorriqueños en Raleigh…. y los de Raleigh pues recogen a los puertorriqueños del Triangle Area. Así que, los puertorriqueños aparentemente, si están conectados de esas maneras, aunque no sea “face-to-face contact”. Y los que están llegando pues llegan normalmente a lugares donde tienen a alguien. O sea, llegan porque, después de María, porque tienen alguien. Probablemente llegaron a la casa de esa persona. ¿Verdad? Entonces, si se quedan, obtienen lugares separados y si se regresan pues bueno. Pero, yo creo que los puertorriqueños hemos hecho comunidad desde el principio de nuestra migración a principios del siglo pasado. Los que vinieron a mediados del siglo, ya para ese momento el transporte aéreo era mucho más económico que el transporte que utilizaron los europeos cuando vinieron aquí. Por lo tanto, a diferencia de los europeos que una vez llegaban se tenían que quedar aquí porque el viaje de vuelta era muy complejo, para el puertorriqueño desde el principio ir y venir… ha sido muy, muy… ha sido muy frecuente, ¿no? Nosotros vamos y venimos. ¿En Puerto Rico la mayor- yo no me atrevo a decirlo científicamente verdad? Que la mayoría, pero me, me- apuesto que la mayoría de puertorriqueños han ido o tienen alguien en su familia que haya estado en Estados Unidos en algún momento… y que, que han regresado. La llamamos la puerta giratoria, unos entran y otros salen.
En la época de los 60, tuvimos una migración de retorno muy grande y todavía - vamos por tres meses, vamos por cinco años y, y regresamos. Somos lo que se llama también una comunidad transnacional porque tenemos, estamos en un sitio geográficamente, pero a la misma vez estos vínculos que tenemos a través de Facebook, de Skype, de email y de ir y venir, pues nos mantienen conectados y es mucho más fácil que para el europeo mantener nuestra, nuestra cultura porque estamos conectados. Nos mantenemos conectados y el huracán ha sido una gran muestra en que tan pronto aquí los puertorriqueños que estaban mejor informados de lo que estábamos en la isla, de lo que ocurrió en Puerto Rico porque tenían acceso a todas las imágenes que nosotros por falta de electricidad no teníamos. Y así, por ejemplo, mi hija- mis hijas me enviaron a mis los pasajes para yo… digo dos pasajes por que ellas me sacaron dos pasajes para que yo usara el, el que pudiera. Y entonces me llaman para informarme, no me consiguen, llaman a otras personas y es a través de otras personas que yo sé que tengo pasaje para venir aquí. Pero es porque ellas están informadas de la devastación que ha dejado María… a través de los medios de comunicación.
AG: … Y entonces si, si puede decirme un poco mas como se vinculan los puertorriqueños en, en North Carolina con su tierra y con su gente antes y también después del hur- huracán. [00:47:35] Es más difícil ahora comunicar?
VM: No, no…
AG: … ¿Todavía se falta electricidad? ¿O no?
VM: No, esto, ya la electricidad… bueno ese es un “tricky question” porque el gobierno dice que noventa y pico, casi toda la electricidad se ha recuperado. Sin embargo, la prensa en Estados- en Puerto Rico, informa que hay muchos barrios, muchos pueblos todavía… que carecen de electricidad y de comunicaciones. En el caso mío, como yo soy residente del área metropolitana de San Juan, allí… hay. La luz, la electricidad se cae a menudo, pero regresa. Hay formas de comunicarse. Ahora, yo creo que lo importante, por un lado, son los medios, a través de los cuales nos comunicamos y otra de las maneras son las cosas que se hacen, verdad… para mantenernos vinculados siempre, no solamente en el huracán María. En cualquier evento de clima que ocurre, por ejemplo, cuando hay inundaciones… los puertorriqueños de acá se movilizan para apoyar a los puertorriqueños de la isla. Igual que hacen los puertorriqueños de la isla que fueron muy solidarios con las personas que sufrieron en el huracán Harvey. Lo mismo, fueron solidarios con los residentes de islas vecinas durante el huracán Irma que precedió a María por dos semanas. Pero siempre hay mucho contacto… y los propósitos son desde cotidianos, voy para allá, te mando a mi hijo en, en las… las mamás de acá envían a los hijos a pasar el verano con los abuelos o, o vice versa. Esto, muchos puertorriqueños van a visitar amistades. O sea, hay mucho movimiento. Quizás por lo que decía anteriormente… el costo se ha ido reduciendo y eso nos da una movilidad. Como vivimos en una isla, buscamos salir, salir de ella frecuentemente. Por salud, también las razones que decía anteriormente, pero hay mucha, mucha comunicación entre- somos una comunidad transnacional…
AG: Si.
VM: …tenemos un pie aquí y el otro allá.
AG: Si.
VM: ¡Y nuestro corazón! Ayer me encontraba con un señor que me decía, “estoy aquí, pero yo me quiero ir, me quiero ir”, “estoy bien, pero me quiero ir”.
AG: Si, entonces que buena la observación… entonces, ¿[00:51:05] que piensa usted que es importante preguntar o entender sobre las comunidades puertorique- puertorriqueñas en Carolina del Norte o también el sureste del país o los Estados Unidos continentales?
VM: Si, yo creo que las preguntas son las mismas que se deben de hacer para los migrantes, para cualquier migrante, en cualquier lugar. Primeramente… conocer, hay que conocer cual es el perfil de ese migrante, porque en el grupo grande de migrantes siempre hay subgrupos, por ejemplo, por edad, por género, etcétera, que tienen, tienen necesidades especiales. Por lo tanto, para conocer como, cuales son las necesidades que se tienen que atender pues hay que ir a ese perfil sociodemográfico. Pero, por supuesto, yo creo que el idioma es, es algo bien importante que hay que entender. Hay una noción, que yo entiendo que es falsa, de… que los puertorriqueños somos bilingües. Y si, hay unos que son más bilingües que otros y estamos familiarizados con el idioma porque vemos mucho cable televisión en inglés, porque el inglés es el idioma de los negocios, pero eso es muy distinto a poderlo hablar con fluidez. Aunque yo considero que tengo bastante buen inglés, sin embargo, en muchas ocasiones me siento que no tengo el vocabulario, que no articulo con la rapidez, que estoy traduciendo en vez de pensando… y por lo tanto yo creo que debe de haber… programas para ayudar a los puertorriqueños, igual que a cualquier otro migrante, que viene con un idioma distinto, a manejarlo en la escuela, en los hospitales. Por ejemplo, debe de haber interpretes en las cortes, es decir, cuales son los servicios, ofrecer servicios que permitan que la persona que no maneja el idioma con suficiente seguridad, pueda expresarse. Por ejemplo, la persona va a un hospital con un problema de salud y lo necesita decir en su propio idioma, porque no sabe. Una persona tiene un problema psicológico, necesita hablar en su propio idioma. Así que yo creo que eso, ese tipo de preguntas, quienes son y cuales son los servicios son importantes para cualquier. Hay que promover la sensitividad cultural. De que se entienda cuales son nuestras particularidades y no tomarlas como ofensa. El hecho de que hablemos español entre nosotros, no entiendo que debe de ofender al estadounidense y eso lamentablemente lo estoy viendo en Facebook. Veo muchos momentos en que personas, con mucha intolerancia, se dirigen a- sobre todo a los latinos, ¿verdad? No los veo con, con otros inmigrantes de otras partes, rusos, polacos, personas de otras partes, es con los latinos y quizás con las personas del medio oriente. Si están aquí, tienen que hablar inglés pues saber otros idiomas es un beneficio. No lo deberíamos de ver… claro, tu si me puedes decir, bueno estamos, estoy en mi país y yo voy hablar en inglés y si tu quieres hablar conmigo, háblame en inglés. Excepto en situaciones en la, verdad… como la que te decía anteriormente de que uno no, no sabe como expresarse. Pero, mucha gente pretende que incluso con otras personas del mismo grupo, otros latinos, pues que uno tenga que hablar inglés porque ese es el país, el idioma de aquí. Así que yo creo que hay que desarrollar un poco de la sensibilidad cultural, tanto con el idioma como con, también con, otras formas culturales que de ninguna manera representan ni una ofensa ni una agresión al, al país donde nos encontramos…
AG: Gracias, creo que es todo lo que tengo yo. Entonces, [00:56:55] hay algo más que, ¿que usted quiera añadir?
VM: Ay, yo creo que yo ya he hablado mucho.
AG Y VM: [Se ríen]
AG: ¡Eso esta bien!
VM: ¡Hay mucho más que se puede decir!
AG: ¡Si, claro!
VM: Pero pues habría verdad que profundizar un poco, sobre todo la relación- para mi, por ejemplo, a mi me preocupa en el caso mío particular y yo creo que hay otras personas que comparten mi sentir, no sabría decir cuantas, que nos preocupa la situación de Puerto Rico. No solamente la deuda que tiene en estos momentos, no solamente las condiciones provocadas por el huracán, sino toda la relación colonial de Puerto Rico y Estados Unidos, porque esa relación nos impide a nosotros a salir adelante. Las leyes de Estados Unidos que aplican a Puerto Rico, muchas veces hay algunas que favorecen, pero económicamente son leyes para favorecer a las empresas norteamericanas o estadounidenses. Y en ese caso, si es para favorecerlas a ellas, van en contra de nuestro propio desarrollo y nos mantienen en un estado de subdesarrollo… en lugar de nosotros poder avanzar. Así es que, resolver la situación colonial de Puerto Rico es, tiene urgencia. Yo no sé cómo desde aquí yo puedo continuar colaborando con los esfuerzos de descolonización, pero es uno de los retos que yo tengo al estar aquí, y que comparten otros puertorriqueños que igual que yo estamos en Estados Unidos. Y creo que es bien importante hablar de esto porque como decíamos informalmente antes de comenzar que bueno, hemos recibido mucho, bueno, es maravilloso el apoyo que hemos recibido de Estados Unidos, de la población, verdad, porque… hoy leí antes de salir para acá que FEMA envió lo que llamamos comida chatarra… comida que no sirve, chips, candy, verdad… este, cosas que, que no eran nutritivas a Puerto Rico, que bueno nos mantenía, nos quitaba el hambre pero no nos mantenía alimentados en esos días… pero la población estadounidense, yo creo que en términos generales ha sido muy solidaria y lo agradecemos. Pero, en el proceso han adoptado también unas defensas de que Estados Unidos debe de tratar a los puertorriqueños de una manera igualitaria por ser ciudadanos y esa manera igualitaria incluyen para muchas personas convertirnos en Estado. Están bajo la creencia que todos los puertorriqueños desean que Puerto Rico sea estado y eso no es así. No, no queremos perder la amistad con Estados Unidos, pero nos gusta, a muchos nos gustaría tener soberanía y control sobre nuestros propios asuntos y sobre nuestro propio futuro.
AG: Okay. Entonces, muchísimas gracias por todo
VM: Gracias tu, por la oportunidad de decir todo esto.
AG: ¡Si!
[1:01:13] VM Y AG: [Se ríen]
[END OF INTERVIEW]
TRANSCRITO POR: LAURA DUQUE
8 DE NOVIEMBRE DEL 2018
Edited by: Marisa Carlton on June 6, 2019
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Profesores
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Español
Es: Temas
Medios de comunicación; Experiencia migratoria; Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill; Integración y segregación; Cambio climático
Es: Transcripción
[00:00:01] Alexandra Graham: Hola, estamos aquí con Vicky Muñiz. ¿Esta (inaudible) así? Vamos a empezar con la entrevista. [00:00:07] ¿Podíamos, podíamos empezar con un relato de su trabajo en la Universidad de Puerto Rico y también su área de estudio?
[00:00:14] Vicky Muñiz: Si. Yo trabajé durante veinticinco años en la Universidad de Puerto Rico. Me retiré en agosto del año pasado justamente antes del huracán María. En la universidad enseñaba Ciencias Sociales, Estudios Urbanos, Estudios sobre Géneros, Estudios sobre Migración y sobre el Espacio.
En la universidad estaba afiliada principalmente a la Facultad de Estudios Generales, que es la facultad a la cual llegan todos los estudiantes que van a estudiar en el Recinto de Rio Piedras y allí comienzan su… su carrera. Tuve la oportunidad de trabajar con, con los estudiantes que llegaban - los… los “freshmen” y que estudiaban cualquier carrera. Mi entrenamiento como geógrafa fue muy útil porque los Estudios Generales tienen una perspectiva interdisciplinaria y la Geografía también. Hice mis Estudios Graduados - tanto maestría como doctorado en la Universidad de Syracuse. Hice Urban Social Geography with emphasis on Gender and Social and Ethnic Minorities. El título de mi disertación es “The Defense of the Neighborhood as a Response to Urban Revitalization and Gentrification: Puerto Rican Women’s Struggle in Sunset Park”. En la disertación trabajé género, minorías étnicas y desarrollo urbano y asuntos relacionados con el espacio. En los cursos trataba asuntos de desigualdad, globalización, desarrollo económico… especialmente de Puerto Rico y especialmente a partir del siglo diecinueve, el fin de la colonia española, la invasión estadounidense y el cambio de soberanía hasta el presente.
La mayor parte del tiempo fui profesora, pero en los últimos cinco años estuve en posiciones administrativas. Fui directora del Departamento de Ciencias Sociales y luego decana de Facultad donde pude promover proyectos que me interesaban mucho como el “Higher Education for Prisoners Project” y la creación de un programa sub graduado y graduado sobre afro descendencia. También, mientras trabajaba en mi disertación, trabajé en la, la ciudad de Nueva York, donde dirigí… fui líder comunitaria e hice mucho trabajo con la comunidad puertorriqueña y dominicana en el área de vivienda y en el área de educación. Dirigí dos centros que trabajaban esos temas en el barrio de Sunset Park en Brooklyn. Experimenté discrimen, sobre todo en la vivienda, o sea que conozco de primera mano lo que sufren muchos puertorriqueños… y creo que eso más o menos cubre (la primera pregunta).
AG: Que importante trabajo. Gracias por decirme un poco de eso.
VM: Gracias.
AG: ¿Vamos a cambiar el tema un poquito y podría usted decirnos como inmigrante, [00:04:27] cuales son algunas razones por las que las personas se han mudado de Puerto Rico a los Estados Unidos y a otros países en las pasadas décadas y… y también por qué, por qué usted no considera usted Puerto Rico como parte de los Estados Unidos?
VM: Bueno, voy a empezar por la segunda parte porque creo que conecta mejor.
AG: Okay, perfecto.
VM: Yo considero que Puerto Rico es una colonia de Estados Unidos. Aunque legalmente somos una posesión de Estados Unidos no somos parte de Estados Unidos. En Puerto Rico existe mucha gente que desean que Puerto Rico pueda convertirse en estado, pero hay otras personas que desean mantener las relaciones coloniales que existen en este momento con algunos cambios, que tengamos un poco más de control sobre nuestros asuntos. Pero también abemos otros que entendemos que lo que Puerto Rico debe de hacer es independizarse… seguir un camino con soberanía propia que le permita decidir sus asuntos porque nosotros tenemos una historia y una cultura muy diferente. Eso no significa que no apreciemos a los Estados Unidos como apreciamos a otros países, pero nos gustaría ser parte de la comunidad internacional de países soberanos. Pero, por ser colonia de Estados Unidos desde 1898 y antes de España, hemos estado en constante movimiento.
Razones para abreviar (la migración a los Estados Unidos) pues mayormente son razones de trabajo. La gente busca oportunidades de empleo fuera de nuestra isla. Muchas veces también es por razones familiares… seguir a los que ya se han ido. En esta época más reciente, por supuesto, la devastación del huracán forzó a muchos puertorriqueños, como a mi persona, a salir porque las condiciones en Puerto Rico no nos permitían quedarnos. Los puertorriqueños en época de España, ya habían comenzado a emigrar a Estados Unidos. En aquel momento emigraban mayormente porque estaban en contra del régimen español. Eran marinos mercantes que trabajaban con la carga que iba entre Estados Unidos y Puerto Rico o eran exiliados por estar en oposición a Estados Unidos. También había un grupo de puertorriqueños que estaba compuesto de tabaqueros. Trabajaban en el tabaco. Los primeros asentamientos fueron en New Orleans, en New York City y en Tampa, Florida. En Tampa estaban los tabaqueros. Cuando Estados Unidos… cuando hay el cambio de soberanía y Estados Unidos toma control de Puerto Rico, la migración se va hacia Estados Unidos, hacia la Ciudad de Nueva York principalmente, porque hay unos cambios… unas transformaciones estructurales en Puerto Rico que lleva a cabo Estados Unidos para acomodar al capital agrícola.
Las transformaciones conllevan un cambio de una economía de subsistencia a una economía para la exportación y eso deja a muchos puertorriqueños sin trabajo. Al estar sin trabajo, empiezan a salir de la isla. Ya desde ese momento se empieza hablar de que Puerto Rico esta sobrepoblado, utilizando teorías maltusianas. No lo había estado bajo España unos meses antes, pero era la forma de explicar que había un excedente de población laboral que no se podía emplear. Así que los puertorriqueños empiezan a salir a América Latina, a Hawái. Hay como cinco mil puertorriqueños que se van a trabajar en las plantaciones azucareras en Hawái. Además, hay un huracán, el huracán San Ciriaco - nuevamente otro huracán - que causa mucha devastación en la agricultura y…Puerto Rico se queda sin producción azucarera para suplir la demanda internacional. Hawái, que esta en el otro lado…esta en el Pacifico, por su lado tiene una gran demanda de azúcar y necesita trabajadores. Así que muchos van para allá. Y el resto llega a los Estados Unidos buscando trabajo.
Más adelante, en 1917 se aprueba la Ley Jones que tiene dos elementos importantes. Un elemento es que nos obliga a utilizar barcos estadounidenses para transportar mercancía entre Estados Unidos y Puerto Rico. Esas son las leyes de cabotaje. Pero por el otro lado también, nos obliga a servir en las fuerzas armadas. Algunos dirían que se concede, otros diríamos se impone, la ciudadanía de Estados Unidos y por lo tanto los hombres puertorriqueños en aquel momento tienen obligatoriamente que servir en las fuerzas armadas. Desde entonces, los puertorriqueños han estado en todas las guerras en las cuales Estados Unidos ha participado. Hoy en día seguimos luchando, como lo hicimos en aquel momento, porque las leyes de cabotaje no apliquen a Puerto Rico, ya que encárese toda la producción. El ochenta y cinco por ciento de todo de lo que nosotros consumimos llega por barco por lo que nuestro costo de vida se, se encárese.
Para mediados del siglo pasado, después de la segunda guerra mundial, en Puerto Rico se hicieron otros cambios estructurales. Se comenzó el proceso de industrialización para que las industrias… las manufactureras de Estados Unidos, el capital manufacturero de Estados Unidos, encontrara trabajo barato. Es decir, los puertorriqueños trabajaban por unos salarios muy bajos y eso les permitió a muchas compañías transferir sus operaciones a Puerto Rico. Entiendo que fue el comienzo de lo que hoy llamamos Globalización, pero en Puerto Rico se hizo primero. Al industrializar a Puerto Rico como la industria necesita menos trabajadores que la agricultura, por lo tanto, hubo otro momento de expulsión de trabajadores del mercado de trabajo y muchos de los trabajadores empezaron a emigrar. Ya tenían la facilidad también de viajar a Estados Unidos porque la ciudadanía les permitía hacerlo sin pasaporte, visa, etcétera. Así que muchos empezaron a emigrar.
El lugar preferido fue la Ciudad de Nueva York. Es decir, los puertorriqueños, como muchos migrantes, van donde ya hay algunos compatriotas o personas conocidas viviendo. Llegaron a Nueva York. También trabajaron en los campos agrícolas en los estados cercanos a Nueva York. Por lo tanto, empezó a dispersarse la población en el noreste de Estados Unidos, Pennsylvania, Connecticut, Massachusetts, etcétera… New Jersey. Pero, la Ciudad de Nueva York fue el lugar principal y fue por razones económicas. De hecho, hay un trabajo muy importante del Center for Puerto Rican Studies de Hunter College que se llama “Labor Migration under Capitalism” que recoge toda esta historia y aunque ya tiene bastantes años, todavía explica muy bien lo que causó la migración que fue después de la segunda guerra mundial en que todo el mundo… sobre todo el mundo occidental, se estaba reorganizando económicamente. Eso fue a mediados de siglo. Luego podemos hablar de la migración de este siglo que esta relacionada con la deuda de Puerto Rico.
La deuda que tiene Puerto Rico, que ha causado una crisis comenzó en las últimas décadas del siglo pasado cuando los gobernantes tomaban prestado para cuadrar el presupuesto y cumplir promesas de campaña, sobre todo obras de infraestructura costosísimas. Sin embargo, la deuda mayor fue cuando Estados Unidos suspendió las leyes que habían protegido a las empresas estadounidenses radicadas en Puerto Rico, las conocidas como 936, refiriéndose a la sección de la ley de rentas internas federal que eximia de pagar impuestos sobre las ganancias a las corporaciones estadounidenses radicadas en Puerto Rico. Al eliminar esas leyes, muchas de esas empresas se fueron de Puerto Rico y nuevamente llevo a desempleo. Para seguir ofreciendo muchos servicios que antes se ofrecían, los gobiernos del 1997 en adelante comenzaron hacer muchos préstamos y la deuda fue aumentando hasta el día de hoy. Actualmente esta situación ha desembocado en una crisis muy grande porque no se puede pagar la deuda, lo que ha llevado a una nueva migración. Pero también, antes de eso, desde Nueva York y desde el noreste, y en los estados del centro: Chicago, Ohio…ya existían comunidades puertorriqueñas muy grandes. En Chicago y en Ohio los puertorriqueños trabajaban en manufactura relacionada, por ejemplo, con el acero y la industria automovilística mientras en Nueva York era más bien la industria de textiles. Los puertorriqueños en el noreste empiezan también a sentir el impacto de los cambios que se están llevando a cabo en la economía mundial… empiezan a perder sus empleos a la misma vez que los procesos del desarrollo urbano, sobre todo gentrificación va expulsando a los puertorriqueños de sus viviendas y sus barrios. Los puertorriqueños habían logrado asentarse en vecindarios o barrios como comunidades. En la Ciudad de Nueva York se conoce mucho East Harlem o Spanish Harlem, Loisaida, en el Bronx. En Brooklyn, donde yo viví por once a siete años, había comunidades puertorriqueñas o barrios puertorriqueños de larga duración. Desde los ‘70 empieza a observarse un proceso de desplazamiento. Llega el momento en que no tienen a donde ir y empiezan a salir del noreste. De la misma manera, salen porque algunos han mejorado su situación económica y quieren lugares donde haya mejor clima y donde haya mejor calidad de vida. Así es que empezamos a ver un movimiento hacia el sur de Estados Unidos con Florida y Texas, pero sobretodo Florida, como el lugar principal de migración interna. Esto… y bueno, también a… a Carolina del Norte.
AG: Si.
VM: [00:18:48] La historia de Carolina del Norte es otra. La digo dentro de unos minutos, pero… o sea de los 70 en adelante se va viendo un movimiento de puertorriqueños hacia otros lugares. En los 2000 los puertorriqueños siguen saliendo de Puerto Rico por las razones que había mencionado de la deuda. El huracán del 2017 motiva otro gran desplazamiento de puertorriqueños a Estados Unidos, porque son devastadas todas las comunicaciones, las vías públicas y la economía, sobretodo como consecuencia de la caída del sistema eléctrico. Los que tienen niños, en busca de escuelas, los que tienen personas mayores para que puedan tener acceso a cuidados médicos, personas buscando trabajo porque las empresas en las que trabajaban no están operando en las condiciones en la que ha quedado Puerto Rico, y estudiantes universitarios también y muchos, no todos, se quedan al terminar sus estudios. Esas también son razones para establecerse aquí. ¿Decía de North Carolina…porque están los puertorriqueños en North Carolina?
AG: Si.
[00:20:43] VM: Pues mucha gente piensa que es en los ‘40 y ‘50… en realidad los puertorriqueños empezaron a emigrar a North Carolina, Carolina del Norte (en) 1918. ¿Ya eran ciudadanos y cuando en 1918 comienza la construcción del Fort Bragg en Cumberland, creo que es en el condado de Cumberland, reclutan a puertorriqueños en la isla porque son mano de obra barata… no? Los traen a Carolina del Norte, los ponen a trabajar. Una veintena de puertorriqueños que están trabajando en el fuerte mueren en una, en un brote de influenza y están enterrados en el cementerio de Fort Bragg. Otros puertorriqueños terminan su trabajo y regresan a Puerto Rico y otros se quedan aquí. Así empieza entonces a construirse una comunidad de puertorriqueños en los alrededores de Fort Bragg. O sea, van a vivir en las afueras. En ese momento son 4000, un poco más de 4000, puertorriqueños los que traen y con el tiempo como ya Puerto Rico participa en las fuerzas armadas llegan a Fort Bragg para propósitos de entrenamiento y se van quedando. Una vez terminan su compromiso con el ejército muchos se quedan. Los descendientes de esos puertorriqueños, nacidos en muchas ocasiones aquí, también se quedan y empiezan a dispersarse en el resto del estado. Así es que tenemos… que, aunque se establecen primero en Fort Bragg, tenemos ahora puertorriqueños en todas partes de North Carolina o en muchas partes de North Carolina. Aunque no es común tener barrios puertorriqueños. Es decir, tener a los puertorriqueños viviendo todos en un mismo vecindario, en una misma área. Esa es una de las particularidades que creo que se debe de estudiar… porque esa es la impresión que hay de que los puertorriqueños viven muy dispersos. En estos momentos, la mayor parte de los puertorriqueños viven en el área de Cumberland y del fuerte, en el Triangle Area, y en, en Charlotte. Según entiendo fueron alrededor de 135 los que llegaron después del huracán. Que no es mucho comparado con los que llegaron a Orlando, que se calcula fueron mas de 150,000 mil. Pero, de todas maneras, añaden a esta población que ha ido en crecimiento y como decías anteriormente, North Carolina se ha convertido en el decimosegundo-
AG: Si.
VM: …estado con mayor población de puertorriqueños. Así que, en resumen: razones laborales, razones de seguir a familiares, razones también de salud, muchos vienen buscando… atención medica, mejor de la que se ha recibido en Puerto Rico.
AG: Y entonces ha sido un gran aumento en los pasados diez años de la población puertorriqueña, entonces aparte de, del hur, hur, hurican, ¿huricán?
VM: Huracán.
AG: Huracán. ¡Gracias! [00:25:12] A parte de esto… que cree que son las razones por eso en los últimos diez años?
VM: En los últimos diez años es buscando trabajo como decía [interrupción inaudible] anteriormente, el problema de la deuda…
AG: Si.
VM: ¿Verdad? Que viene, sobre todo a partir del 2007 cuando empezó una recesión económica en Puerto Rico y desde ese momento ha habido mucho, mucha migración hacia Estados Unidos y North Carolina ha atraído porque muchos m-bueno porque ya tienen familiares aquí.
AG: Uh huh.
VM: ¿O conocidos, esa es una razón… [inaudible] y los migrantes… verdad? Siempre tratan- hay el que va solito a aventurarse, pero luego muchos le siguen. Así que en estos momentos muchos puertorriqueños sencillamente están siguiendo a los que vinieron anteriormente. Algunos, como decía, están el Research Triangle, pues un área de varias universidades y muchos vienen a estudiar y terminan quedándose o ya habiendo tenido la experiencia de estudios aquí, regresan a Puerto Rico y luego buscan trabajo en esta área. Conozco algunos que así ha sido el caso, que se han quedado o que han regresado al área porque estudiaron aquí. Entiendo que también esta es un área donde hay muchos servicios de salud que están atrayendo a puertorriqueños y sobretodo mucha gente que busca lugares más tranquilos para vivir, que los lugares tradicionales en el noreste, incluso en Orlando, en Florida, buscan lugares más tranquilos. Así que esas son las razones que yo he podido… conocer a través de otros puertorriqueños que han, han venido.
AG: Entonces la historia es muy larga [se ríe].
VM: Si, si.
AG: ¡Gracias!
VM: Creemos, creemos que es muy reciente, pero es…
AG: Si, muy larga. ¿Entonces esta usted familiarizada con las comunidades militares de puertorriqueños en el este de Carolina del Norte?
VM: Realmente no. Conozco que esta el Camp Lejeune un poquito más, creo, que al este y más en la costa, pero eso es un Marine, Marine Air Force base… los puertorriqueños tienden a estar más en el Army y en todo caso en el Air Force, creo yo por lo que oigo. La mayor parte de los puertorriqueños están en Fort Bragg y hacen sus comunidades o sus viviendas cerca de Fort Bragg. Los que conozco… precisamente ayer estuve con una persona que trabajo hasta hace dos semanas en Fort Bragg, era civil, pero trabajaba allí. El me dice que no conoce mucha gente puertorriqueña en Fayetteville. Sabe que existen. Hay un festival puertorriqueño y una parada puertorriqueña, pero no conozco sobre ello, más allá de lo que te comentaba anteriormente, y si sé que muchos puertorriqueños que han trabajado en la base. O sea, no solamente van para entrenamientos sino que se quedan, trabajan, tienen posiciones laborales, de dirección, de entrenamiento- que entrenan a los soldados que llegan de distintos lugares… pero no, no conozco mucho más.
AG: Okay. ¿Y sabe cuando originaron los grupos?
VM: 1918.
AG: 18.
VM: Cuando vinieron a…
AG: Okay.
VM: …a, a trabajar en la construcción del fuerte.
AG: Okay, gracias. Y cambiando el tema, un poquito otra vez, cual ha sido su experiencia o la de otros que se han mudado de Puerto Rico a Nort- North Carolina recientemente después del devastador huracán del año pasado… si, ¿[00:30:03] cual ha sido la experiencia?
VM: Bueno [aplaude y hay risa de respuesta], yo llegue en octubre, mediados de octubre. Muy traumatizada…
AG: Si.
VM: …por la experiencia que había tenido en Puerto Rico. Yo viví la experiencia del huracán sola y quedé muy, muy afectada. En los primeros tres meses, de mediados de octubre a mediados de enero, me quedé viviendo en casa de mi hija y aunque recibía mucho apoyo de parte de ella y de la familia - ella, mis dos nietas y su esposo - esos primeros tres meses fueron unos meses en los que tuve que trabajar conmigo misma, creo que todavía estoy haciéndolo, por el trauma que sentía después del huracán. Me sentía desorientada, vulnerable, lloraba, era incapaz de tomar decisiones sola como las había [despeja su garganta] podido tomar anteriormente. Me sentía aislada, porque, aunque estaba en familia, era solamente con ellos, no tenia amigos, no tenia apoyo institucional, me había jubilado, retirado del trabajo. No tenia otras personas que me apoyaran con excepción, tengo que decir, de la oficina de esta oficina.
AG: ¿Instituto del Estudio de las Américas?
VM: Global- de las Américas, que mi hija trabaja aquí y a través de ella conocí algunas de las otras personas que trabajan y de ellas recibí apoyo- incluyendo su director Louis Pérez que me permitió usar facilidades para colaborar en un proyecto que vinculaba a Puerto Rico con North Carolina. Puedo hablar de eso más tarde. Aparte de eso, también parte de la experiencia era que había perdido toda mi independencia. Yo era una mujer, como decía antes, yo había estado trabajando hasta agosto, había trabajado en posiciones de importancia en las que tomaba decisiones que impactaban a mucha gente. Tenía el respeto de la comunidad académica, tenía cierta autoridad. Y aquí llego y soy prácticamente invisible. Así que eso me afecto mucho y tampoco tenia formas de moverme para tratar de conocer gente y hacerme conocer por otras personas. Así que eso caracterizo mis primeros tres meses. Luego, los siguientes cuatro meses que fue de enero a mayo, me movía ya… ya para ese momento tomé la decisión de quedarme. O sea, cuando yo llegue a North Carolina, como muchos de los que salimos de Puerto Rico en el primer momento, salí con la idea de que esto era algo temporero en lo que se resolvían- mejoraban las condiciones en Puerto Rico. Y de hecho, muchos de los que se fueron a Orlando, que fueron tantos, muchos ya han regresado, verdad… pero en el caso mío, pues quizás por la edad y la situación laboral mía, ya que me había retirado del mercado laboral… y el hecho de que yo tenia en mente que me iba a reunir con mi hija más adelante, lo único que no esperaba que fuera tan pronto, yo esperaba que pasaran cinco años, pero en ese momento decidí que ya que estaba aquí, me quedaba. Así que yo no se hasta que punto mi experiencia es la de otros, pero yo creo que quizás, aunque sean distintas las razones, muchos quizás se quedaban… porque encontraban trabajo y se quedaban o porque se acostumbraban a la forma de vivir y se quedaban o porque los niños estaban en la escuela y no querían trastocar las experiencias que sus hijos estaban teniendo. En el caso mío, fue porque ya yo iba hacerlo, lo iba hacer más adelante y lo que hice fue… quedarme. Entonces habiendo tomado la decisión de quedarme, busqué un lugar independiente y empecé a establecerme, pero tenia muy poco… mis cosas estaban en Puerto Rico.
AG: Si…
VM: Yo cerré la puerta de mi casa con llave cuando me fui y me vine para acá. Todo se quedo allá. Así es que, al empezar a establecerme, lo que tenia era espacio vacío y eso pues no ayudaba a darme la estabilidad y el sentido de pertenencia que necesitaba para considerar a North Carolina mi nuevo hogar.
VM: O sea que todavía yo tenia un pie en Puerto Rico y un pie acá. El clima para mi también fue muy difícil porque estamos hablando de mediados de enero a mediados de mayo. Es decir que esos meses fueron los meses de invierno y como muchos otros puertorriqueños con los cuales hemos- he hablado, llegamos equivocados. Creíamos que el clima aquí iba a ser mucho más benigno y no se si es que fue este año, pero encontramos que fue fuerte el frio y fue largo. Mas largo el invierno de lo que esperábamos…
AG: Si.
VM: [00:37:07] En la isla tenemos sol todo el año. Tenemos unas temperaturas agradables todo el año y aunque es un lugar húmedo que para muchas personas de acá es difícil de tolerar, nosotros estamos acostumbrados… y una brisa del mar… que nos mantiene las temperaturas agradables y el clima es algo que para nosotros los puertorriqueños es… y yo diría que, para los caribeños, es difícil de acostumbrarse. Así que esos primeros meses… de este año ya estaba en un lugar aparte, propio, pero aun así fueron meses de mucha adaptación. Tuve varias situaciones que me ayudaron a sobre llevarlo. Uno, tengo que decir fue el apoyo de una compañera, de una colega, una compañera aquí de esta oficina que se involucro conmigo en un proyecto cotidia- domestico de cambiarle el tapizado a una silla y, y fue muy agradable porque lo hicimos juntas. Ella lo hizo principalmente…
AG: [Se ríe]…
VM: …pero me dio la oportunidad de compartir con ella, irla conociendo, que ella me conociera a mi y de ir saliendo del marco estricto de mi familia. También empecé a dedicarle tiempo, más tiempo a solas, independiente de mi hija, a mis nietas y eso pues fue muy bueno porque yo no las conocía. Ellas iban solo dos veces, dos semanas al año a Puerto Rico.
AG: Si.
VM: Yo no llegue a conocerlas bien a ellas cuando estuve viviendo en la casa… pues estaban los padres. Así que me gusta más cuando estoy yo sola con ellas, tengo oportunidad de interactuar mejor. Y también tuve la oportunidad de presentar un papel sobre el impacto del huracán María aquí y sobre la experiencia que había tenido y fue una experiencia que me hacía falta porque he estado alejada de todo tipo de trabajo académico, de análisis y de estudio profundo y tener esa oportunidad, pues también me levanto un poco el espíritu. A mediados de mayo, llego mi carro y llegaron algunas de mis pertenencias y ya ha pasado solamente un mes, pero en este mes mi vida ha ido mejorando mucho. Me siento más en control de mi vida. Me siento que puedo… le he dado forma al apartamento. Ya es un hogar… no me siento tan aislada porque puedo salir, me puedo mover. Estoy tomando clases de yoga, estoy haciendo line dancing, voy a la librería, a la biblioteca, voy a la, hacer mis compras. Todo eso me da control y a la misma vez me permite romper con el aislamiento en el que estaba viviendo. He podido conocer algunos puertorriqueños y continúo haciendo actividades, involucrada en actividades de ayuda a Puerto Rico que son creo que tres: una, un proyecto de adopción de escuelas en el que vinculamos escuelas de Estados Unidos con escuelas en Puerto Rico para que ofrezcan ayuda y sirvan de contacto para personas que de alguna manera quieren o visitar a Puerto Rico o ayudar a Puerto Rico de alguna manera. Así que este último mes ha sido, ya empiezo a sentirme… pero yo creo que el proceso de adaptación de cualquier migrante es un proceso lento, duro. Y el hecho de que aquí los puertorriqueños están tan dispersos, pues no los tengo, no era… Yo vivía en Nueva York y yo llegué a Nueva York también sin carro, pero allí tenía trabajo y transportación pública, bueno, que me conectaba muy bien. Pero también vivía en una comunidad, en un barrio puertorriqueño. Yo salía a la calle y me encontraba con otros puertorriqueños y a todas partes que yo iba me encontraba con otros puertorriqueños. Además, mi trabajo me permitía contribuir al bienestar de mi comunidad.
AG: Muy diferente aquí.
VM: Muy diferente aquí, si.
AG: Gracias. Muchas gracias… Una pregunta es, es la experiencia de reunificación para los puertorriqueños que han, que se han mudado después del…
VM: Del huracán.
AG: ¿Del huracán, [00:42:39] es común esa experiencia?
VM: Yo creo que aquí, pues como te iba diciendo, es distinta la manera en que nos establecemos, pero ahora también hay unos medios para mantenernos comunicados que no existían cuando yo me establecí en Nueva York. Hay varios- en cada ciudad hay páginas en Facebook de puertorriqueños en Fayetteville, puertorriqueños en Charlotte, puertorriqueños en Raleigh…. y los de Raleigh pues recogen a los puertorriqueños del Triangle Area. Así que, los puertorriqueños aparentemente, si están conectados de esas maneras, aunque no sea “face-to-face contact”. Y los que están llegando pues llegan normalmente a lugares donde tienen a alguien. O sea, llegan porque, después de María, porque tienen alguien. Probablemente llegaron a la casa de esa persona. ¿Verdad? Entonces, si se quedan, obtienen lugares separados y si se regresan pues bueno. Pero, yo creo que los puertorriqueños hemos hecho comunidad desde el principio de nuestra migración a principios del siglo pasado. Los que vinieron a mediados del siglo, ya para ese momento el transporte aéreo era mucho más económico que el transporte que utilizaron los europeos cuando vinieron aquí. Por lo tanto, a diferencia de los europeos que una vez llegaban se tenían que quedar aquí porque el viaje de vuelta era muy complejo, para el puertorriqueño desde el principio ir y venir… ha sido muy, muy… ha sido muy frecuente, ¿no? Nosotros vamos y venimos. ¿En Puerto Rico la mayor- yo no me atrevo a decirlo científicamente verdad? Que la mayoría, pero me, me- apuesto que la mayoría de puertorriqueños han ido o tienen alguien en su familia que haya estado en Estados Unidos en algún momento… y que, que han regresado. La llamamos la puerta giratoria, unos entran y otros salen.
En la época de los 60, tuvimos una migración de retorno muy grande y todavía - vamos por tres meses, vamos por cinco años y, y regresamos. Somos lo que se llama también una comunidad transnacional porque tenemos, estamos en un sitio geográficamente, pero a la misma vez estos vínculos que tenemos a través de Facebook, de Skype, de email y de ir y venir, pues nos mantienen conectados y es mucho más fácil que para el europeo mantener nuestra, nuestra cultura porque estamos conectados. Nos mantenemos conectados y el huracán ha sido una gran muestra en que tan pronto aquí los puertorriqueños que estaban mejor informados de lo que estábamos en la isla, de lo que ocurrió en Puerto Rico porque tenían acceso a todas las imágenes que nosotros por falta de electricidad no teníamos. Y así, por ejemplo, mi hija- mis hijas me enviaron a mis los pasajes para yo… digo dos pasajes por que ellas me sacaron dos pasajes para que yo usara el, el que pudiera. Y entonces me llaman para informarme, no me consiguen, llaman a otras personas y es a través de otras personas que yo sé que tengo pasaje para venir aquí. Pero es porque ellas están informadas de la devastación que ha dejado María… a través de los medios de comunicación.
AG: … Y entonces si, si puede decirme un poco mas como se vinculan los puertorriqueños en, en North Carolina con su tierra y con su gente antes y también después del hur- huracán. [00:47:35] Es más difícil ahora comunicar?
VM: No, no…
AG: … ¿Todavía se falta electricidad? ¿O no?
VM: No, esto, ya la electricidad… bueno ese es un “tricky question” porque el gobierno dice que noventa y pico, casi toda la electricidad se ha recuperado. Sin embargo, la prensa en Estados- en Puerto Rico, informa que hay muchos barrios, muchos pueblos todavía… que carecen de electricidad y de comunicaciones. En el caso mío, como yo soy residente del área metropolitana de San Juan, allí… hay. La luz, la electricidad se cae a menudo, pero regresa. Hay formas de comunicarse. Ahora, yo creo que lo importante, por un lado, son los medios, a través de los cuales nos comunicamos y otra de las maneras son las cosas que se hacen, verdad… para mantenernos vinculados siempre, no solamente en el huracán María. En cualquier evento de clima que ocurre, por ejemplo, cuando hay inundaciones… los puertorriqueños de acá se movilizan para apoyar a los puertorriqueños de la isla. Igual que hacen los puertorriqueños de la isla que fueron muy solidarios con las personas que sufrieron en el huracán Harvey. Lo mismo, fueron solidarios con los residentes de islas vecinas durante el huracán Irma que precedió a María por dos semanas. Pero siempre hay mucho contacto… y los propósitos son desde cotidianos, voy para allá, te mando a mi hijo en, en las… las mamás de acá envían a los hijos a pasar el verano con los abuelos o, o vice versa. Esto, muchos puertorriqueños van a visitar amistades. O sea, hay mucho movimiento. Quizás por lo que decía anteriormente… el costo se ha ido reduciendo y eso nos da una movilidad. Como vivimos en una isla, buscamos salir, salir de ella frecuentemente. Por salud, también las razones que decía anteriormente, pero hay mucha, mucha comunicación entre- somos una comunidad transnacional…
AG: Si.
VM: …tenemos un pie aquí y el otro allá.
AG: Si.
VM: ¡Y nuestro corazón! Ayer me encontraba con un señor que me decía, “estoy aquí, pero yo me quiero ir, me quiero ir”, “estoy bien, pero me quiero ir”.
AG: Si, entonces que buena la observación… entonces, ¿[00:51:05] que piensa usted que es importante preguntar o entender sobre las comunidades puertorique- puertorriqueñas en Carolina del Norte o también el sureste del país o los Estados Unidos continentales?
VM: Si, yo creo que las preguntas son las mismas que se deben de hacer para los migrantes, para cualquier migrante, en cualquier lugar. Primeramente… conocer, hay que conocer cual es el perfil de ese migrante, porque en el grupo grande de migrantes siempre hay subgrupos, por ejemplo, por edad, por género, etcétera, que tienen, tienen necesidades especiales. Por lo tanto, para conocer como, cuales son las necesidades que se tienen que atender pues hay que ir a ese perfil sociodemográfico. Pero, por supuesto, yo creo que el idioma es, es algo bien importante que hay que entender. Hay una noción, que yo entiendo que es falsa, de… que los puertorriqueños somos bilingües. Y si, hay unos que son más bilingües que otros y estamos familiarizados con el idioma porque vemos mucho cable televisión en inglés, porque el inglés es el idioma de los negocios, pero eso es muy distinto a poderlo hablar con fluidez. Aunque yo considero que tengo bastante buen inglés, sin embargo, en muchas ocasiones me siento que no tengo el vocabulario, que no articulo con la rapidez, que estoy traduciendo en vez de pensando… y por lo tanto yo creo que debe de haber… programas para ayudar a los puertorriqueños, igual que a cualquier otro migrante, que viene con un idioma distinto, a manejarlo en la escuela, en los hospitales. Por ejemplo, debe de haber interpretes en las cortes, es decir, cuales son los servicios, ofrecer servicios que permitan que la persona que no maneja el idioma con suficiente seguridad, pueda expresarse. Por ejemplo, la persona va a un hospital con un problema de salud y lo necesita decir en su propio idioma, porque no sabe. Una persona tiene un problema psicológico, necesita hablar en su propio idioma. Así que yo creo que eso, ese tipo de preguntas, quienes son y cuales son los servicios son importantes para cualquier. Hay que promover la sensitividad cultural. De que se entienda cuales son nuestras particularidades y no tomarlas como ofensa. El hecho de que hablemos español entre nosotros, no entiendo que debe de ofender al estadounidense y eso lamentablemente lo estoy viendo en Facebook. Veo muchos momentos en que personas, con mucha intolerancia, se dirigen a- sobre todo a los latinos, ¿verdad? No los veo con, con otros inmigrantes de otras partes, rusos, polacos, personas de otras partes, es con los latinos y quizás con las personas del medio oriente. Si están aquí, tienen que hablar inglés pues saber otros idiomas es un beneficio. No lo deberíamos de ver… claro, tu si me puedes decir, bueno estamos, estoy en mi país y yo voy hablar en inglés y si tu quieres hablar conmigo, háblame en inglés. Excepto en situaciones en la, verdad… como la que te decía anteriormente de que uno no, no sabe como expresarse. Pero, mucha gente pretende que incluso con otras personas del mismo grupo, otros latinos, pues que uno tenga que hablar inglés porque ese es el país, el idioma de aquí. Así que yo creo que hay que desarrollar un poco de la sensibilidad cultural, tanto con el idioma como con, también con, otras formas culturales que de ninguna manera representan ni una ofensa ni una agresión al, al país donde nos encontramos…
AG: Gracias, creo que es todo lo que tengo yo. Entonces, [00:56:55] hay algo más que, ¿que usted quiera añadir?
VM: Ay, yo creo que yo ya he hablado mucho.
AG Y VM: [Se ríen]
AG: ¡Eso esta bien!
VM: ¡Hay mucho más que se puede decir!
AG: ¡Si, claro!
VM: Pero pues habría verdad que profundizar un poco, sobre todo la relación- para mi, por ejemplo, a mi me preocupa en el caso mío particular y yo creo que hay otras personas que comparten mi sentir, no sabría decir cuantas, que nos preocupa la situación de Puerto Rico. No solamente la deuda que tiene en estos momentos, no solamente las condiciones provocadas por el huracán, sino toda la relación colonial de Puerto Rico y Estados Unidos, porque esa relación nos impide a nosotros a salir adelante. Las leyes de Estados Unidos que aplican a Puerto Rico, muchas veces hay algunas que favorecen, pero económicamente son leyes para favorecer a las empresas norteamericanas o estadounidenses. Y en ese caso, si es para favorecerlas a ellas, van en contra de nuestro propio desarrollo y nos mantienen en un estado de subdesarrollo… en lugar de nosotros poder avanzar. Así es que, resolver la situación colonial de Puerto Rico es, tiene urgencia. Yo no sé cómo desde aquí yo puedo continuar colaborando con los esfuerzos de descolonización, pero es uno de los retos que yo tengo al estar aquí, y que comparten otros puertorriqueños que igual que yo estamos en Estados Unidos. Y creo que es bien importante hablar de esto porque como decíamos informalmente antes de comenzar que bueno, hemos recibido mucho, bueno, es maravilloso el apoyo que hemos recibido de Estados Unidos, de la población, verdad, porque… hoy leí antes de salir para acá que FEMA envió lo que llamamos comida chatarra… comida que no sirve, chips, candy, verdad… este, cosas que, que no eran nutritivas a Puerto Rico, que bueno nos mantenía, nos quitaba el hambre pero no nos mantenía alimentados en esos días… pero la población estadounidense, yo creo que en términos generales ha sido muy solidaria y lo agradecemos. Pero, en el proceso han adoptado también unas defensas de que Estados Unidos debe de tratar a los puertorriqueños de una manera igualitaria por ser ciudadanos y esa manera igualitaria incluyen para muchas personas convertirnos en Estado. Están bajo la creencia que todos los puertorriqueños desean que Puerto Rico sea estado y eso no es así. No, no queremos perder la amistad con Estados Unidos, pero nos gusta, a muchos nos gustaría tener soberanía y control sobre nuestros propios asuntos y sobre nuestro propio futuro.
AG: Okay. Entonces, muchísimas gracias por todo
VM: Gracias tu, por la oportunidad de decir todo esto.
AG: ¡Si!
[1:01:13] VM Y AG: [Se ríen]
[END OF INTERVIEW]
TRANSCRITO POR: LAURA DUQUE
8 DE NOVIEMBRE DEL 2018
Edited by: Marisa Carlton on June 6, 2019
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Es: Resumen
Esta entrevista fue llevada a cabo por Alexandra Graham con la entrevistada Dra. Vicky Muñiz Quiñones. Durante la entrevista, Dra. Muñiz Quiñones nos cuenta sobre su historia en la educación como estudiante y después como profesora. También relata una historia breve sobre la migración desde Puerto Rico hasta los Estados Unidos contiguos, aunque no considere Puerto Rico como parte de los Estados Unidos. Ella explica por qué cree esto y después nos da un relato sobre la razón por la cual muchos puertorriqueños se están mudando a Carolina del Norte, lo cual ahora es el estado con la población duodécima más grande de puertorriqueños en los Estados Unidos. Dra. Muñiz Quiñones nos cuenta un poco sobre su propia historia de migración después de Huracán María en 2017. Ella describe las dificultades de dejar a sus amigos y colegas en la Universidad de Puerto Rico y mudarse a Carolina del Norte. Ella nos dice como se sentía desorientada pero lentamente empezó a recuperar su independencia después de unos meses. La entrevista duró un poquito más de una hora. Tomó lugar en una sala de conferencias en el FedEx Global Education Center en el campus de UNC-Chapel Hill. La entrevista era tranquila y no había interrupciones. La entrevista cubre temas emocionales a veces. Dra. Vicky Muñiz Quiñones nació en San Juan, Puerto Rico. Trabajó por 25 años en la Universidad de Puerto Rico donde era profesora y decana de estudios generales. Dra. Muñiz ganó su doctorado en la Universidad de Syracuse en Urban Social Geography. La entrevistadora, Alexandra Graham, es una estudiante graduada en UNC. Ella está trabajando en su maestría en la enseñanza con una especialidad en la educación primaria y la enseñanza de inglés como segundo idioma. Ella se graduó de UNC en mayo 2018 con un título en la Lingüística Hispana y otro título en la Economía. El español es su segundo idioma.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Vicky Muñiz Quiñones, 12 octubre 2018, R-0989, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
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Title
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R-0989 -- Quiñones, Vicky Muñiz.
Description
An account of the resource
This interview was conducted in Spanish by interviewer Alexandra Graham with interviewee Dr. Vicky Muñiz Quiñones. Throughout the interview, Dr. Muñiz Quiñones tells us about her history in education as a student and then as a professor. She also recounts to us a brief history of migration from Puerto Rico to the contiguous United States, although she does not consider Puerto Rico to be part of the United States. She explains why she believes this and then gives us an account of why many Puerto Ricans are moving to North Carolina, which is now the state with the twelfth largest Puerto Rican population. Dr. Muñiz Quiñones then gives us a brief account of her personal migration story from Puerto Rico after Hurricane Maria in 2017. She describes the difficulties of leaving behind her friends and colleagues at the University of Puerto Rico and moving to North Carolina. She tells us about how she initially felt disoriented but slowly began regaining a sense of independence after several months.Dr. Vicky Muñiz Quiñones was born in San Juan, Puerto Rico and relocated to North Carolina in 2017. She worked for 25 years at the University of Puerto Rico where she was a professor and Dean of General Studies. Dr. Muñiz Quiñones earned her doctorate in Urban Social Geography at Syracuse University.
The interviewer, Alexandra Graham, is a graduate student at UNC. She is working on her Master of Arts in Teaching with a specialty in Elementary Education and teaching English as a Second Language (ESL). She recently graduated from UNC with a degree in Hispanic Linguistics and a second major in Economics. Spanish is her second language.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-10-12
Publisher
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/28576">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
R0989_Audio.mp3
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/ff4028c1b6d114b64d9d539be5db71ca.mp3
37fbfb618594c15636b7a24be8218ca2
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/be61e7d72c166c37e99c31b775ac6064.pdf
ff0394814a57fb5476be492324d51520
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0858
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
16 April 2016
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
López, Selina Jaime.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Students
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1994
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Xaltianguis -- Guerrero -- Mexico
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Chapel Hill -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-99.72048050000001 17.0945245),1994,1;POINT(-79.05584450000003 35.91319960000001),1999,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Martínez, Vianey Lemus.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Selina Lopez is a third-year student at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (UNC). Throughout her time at UNC, she has been involved with an organization titled Scholar’s Latino Initiative (SLI) as a mentor and co-leader of the parental involvement program, SLI-Familia. Lopez shares insights about her current role with parents as well as reasons that inspire her to be engaged. She shares various challenges that parents face as they work with students throughout the college application process and mentions efforts SLI is taking to better educate parents about the process. Furthermore, Lopez provides recommendations that should be implemented to ensure the involvement not only of the students but also of the parents, as she recognizes that they are an important aspect of the support system for students. There is also a brief discussion of how factors such as immigration status, language barriers, and cultural differences may place challenges for parental involvement during this crucial time for high school students.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Selina Lopez by Vianey Lemus Martinez, 16 April 2016, R-0858, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/27088
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Adult Education; Higher Education; Community and social services and programs
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Vianey Lemus Martinez: I am here on April 16th at 1:30pm interviewing Selina Lopez. We are currently at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Can you please state your full name and whether you consent for this interview to be recorded?
Selina Lopez: My full name is Selina Lopez and I do give permission.
VLM: Thank you Selina, could you please start by telling me more about your involvement with SLI.
SL: This year I am a current co-chair for SLI-Fam. What SLI-Fam does is work with the mentee's parents where we try to get them to be more involved with the academic life of their student.
VLM: Great, can you tell me a little bit more about how you personally---, what kind of work do you do to help parents to have this role with the students?
SL: Basically Laura, my other co-chair and I, we get together on Sundays when we have academic events and we make lessons plans geared to educating the parents on important themes such as financial aid or the general college application process. Our goal is to get them informed about this process. We realize that a lot of these parents, like their students, are first-generation college parents in a way. They do not know anything about college because they themselves did not have that opportunity to go.
VLM: Of course. Based on your experiences with SLI, how would you describe the current involvement of parents?
SL: Could you explain more on what you mean by?
VLM: Yea, yea for sure. With this question, would you say that parents are very receptive of the information you give? Would you say that parents--. Which parents would you say that mostly participate in the program? Which don't? What kind of dynamics do you see within the group of parents?
SL: Definitely our sophomore parents or the newly admitted class group of parents are the most involved so far. I think they have expressed various times how thankful they are that Laura and I are trying to teach them these themes because they do not know anything. They come in not necessarily knowing anything so we have to start from level zero. For example, one class period we spent talking about how to calculate a GPA because they did not know what a GPA was. So, through that like---. That was one of our first lessons. Through that lesson we realized, "Wow, we actually have to step back and go a lot slower than we anticipated". I would say that parents in general have always expressed their general gratitude for what SLI-Fam does for them. The difficult part of that would be that parents from previous years such Junior and Senior year, I guess because they did not get trapped, not trapped, but engaged from the beginning they did not see the importance of coming to the SLI-Fam lessons. That is something that sophomore parents especially, Laura and I really tried our best to get them engaged and tell them the importance of why they need to be there.
VLM: Ok, thank you. Again from your experiences, what challenges do you think parents face when working with students who pursue a higher education?
SL: Definitely that barrier in knowledge. Parents, like their student, they do not know anything about how you would pursue a higher education, they just base it off of what their student tells them. Most of the time students do not even try to explain to their parents or they feel like stressed themselves to try to explain it. Parents just assumed that their child is doing fine and what they have to do. I think that is one of the challenges that we did see among the parents. They just relied a lot on that their student being okay and that they are having other resources and sometimes they did forget like "Hey I do have to be a little bit involved in my student's academic career. Just try to support them better."
VLM: Do you think that for example, barriers such as language barriers or educational barriers were also another challenge that parents face?
SL: Yes, definitely because SLI-Fam we teach in Spanish which is probably a great thing because some parents do speak English but some are not proficient or feel comfortable speaking in English and some did express during the year they did not feel comfortable addressing someone like an Anglo-speaking person if they even had questions. I think that langue barrier for sure is another challenge, especially for Latinx parents.
VLM: Some studies and people in general tend to think of Latino parents as being very uninvolved in the education of students, sometimes even have said them to be careless about the education and not pushing students enough. How would you respond to this bed on your experiences working with them?
SL: I think that they are not seeing things from the whole perspective. I think that parents, especially Latino parents---. I know that from my personal experience that my parents even though they were not involved in my academic journey, just with their encouragement and support, like basic "Hey you, go to college, you go have a better life for yourself. You have the opportunity that we did not have." Words like that, sayings like that drove me to pursue education. So I think that perhaps these critics are not necessarily taking into account the culture and the barriers they do face. Not looking at all the different perspectives. Not looking at what they do do. They make sure that their child goes to school, they make them go to school even if the child does not want to. Even though they do not know anything, what happens at school sometimes, but they know that school is good so they force them to go.
VLM: I think also for Latino parents, especially those that are first generation in this process. For many we can assume that they may also identify as immigrants whether this is recent or first-generation immigrants to the country. How do you think their migration experiences or status affects their role in education, of the parents or the students?
SL: I think that is also another big barrier that parents face as well. They have the fear of like you know, especially if they are undocumented, they are less comfortable to be involved because of the fear that they might get caught of being undocumented and therefore cause a problem for their child or even themselves. That is definitely another big barrier that is not usually taken into account.
VLM: What are some of the things that you would hope could change in regards to the parental involvement, whether this is in general with college access programs or specifically with SLI? What are some of the changes that you would like to see?
SL: Specifically, with SLI, I would like to see more older generation parents be more involved. We have a pretty good number of sophomore parents that we think are already engaged and like SLI-Fam and like listening to the lesson plans that we do have planned for them. But reaching out to the Junior, older mentee classes their parents that would be nice to have more response from them because I think that parent involvement is really important. Not to say they do not do enough already because parents do have a very big role; without parents their students their student would not be where they are in that current situation. If they were to be more involved the student would see, feel more supported because they see their parent trying to be involved during their academic journey, which would push them more. Yes, make them generally happy that their parents are involved and care.
VLM: For sure. You mentioned or we talked about some of the steps that hopefully parents could take to be more involved. What are steps that you think SLI itself could take? I think they are already a step forward by having this space that is specifically for parents, but what do you think are other things that SLI could do to involve parents more or make them feel more welcomed to the program?
SL: Definitely incorporating them more in their program. What we have seen so far is that they focus a lot on the mentee class, which is great. But I think if parents feel welcomed from the start, I feel like they would be more willing to come, or be willing to share their time on Sundays when they could be doing something else; they could be running errands but the parents, some of them decide to stay and go to the class. For next year for sure we are planning to do like pre-informationals about what SLI, so parents have an idea of what their responsibility would be within SLI before the program actually started. One of the things we did realize is that again is that the student does not really communicate regarding the program or logistical things. When we were in SLI-Fam, the first day of class, most of the parents did not know what SLI was or what the program actually did, so we had to go through that. Even throughout the year, we had to reiterate things that were going on the rest of the month because they said their student does not really communicate what is going on or when the next event is. We figured that having that direct contact with parents themselves would be best to communicate and get them engaged.
Also, I think that would be helpful for them to create like a community within themselves. That is something that we noticed this year. A lot of the parents used each other as resources, which was great to see because parents came from different sites so they would only see each other like twice a month and they would like "hey how are you? How is work going?" They would have nice side conversations and joke around. It was really nice to see the community building towards the end. That was nice.
VLM: Yea, definitely, I think you mentioned a little bit more about your experiences but what are perhaps some specific instances that you remember through your work with SLI that kind of motivated you to keep doing this work and keep being involved with parents?
SL: A big drive for me is remembering, going through the whole college process, remembering my parents not necessarily being directly involved. They were there in the background as a support and as an encouragement system. But I know that as a student, as a High school student, I wanted them to know or have a general idea of what I had to go through or the process itself. That is one of the big drives for me to do that for the parents of SLI. So they can gain a little bit of knowledge so they know how to better support their student and help them. Realize like "hey my child is going to have to take this standardized testing, let me be at least considerate and be like hey I'm willing to pay for like an SAT prep-course class or something. Or be okay with spending or taking you to the library to study for like an hour or two on Saturday instead of doing chores. I think that that is something that drives me. Within SLI, I saw how parents---. Well a comment that a mom said was that SLI-Fam, the thing she learned really help her communicate more with her student and that they communicate more. They communicate better in relation to academics. She feels like she understands her son a little bit more and what he is going through; that is turn has made their relationship a little bit better because communication is on point.
VLM: Definitely. Sorry I am trying to get my train of thought. Is there anything else regarding your experience with SLI parents that you would like to share about?
SL: I kind of have this thing where I say that the SLI parents are like my kids even though they are older than me. But I really do love seeing them during each academic event because they are coming and willing to learn whatever we teach. They always try to be engaged. That motivates me because it shows me that they do care and they want to better support their child. We are giving them a resource to do that. To see their motivation and engagement in class, in participation---. We do have some shy parents, sometimes they do not to say like the wrong thing because they do not know a lot of these themes, they do not want to say what they think or their opinions. I think it is Laura's and I constant reassurance, like hey it's ok if you do not know anything. This is totally a safe space. It is ok to admit that, because we kind of know that you do not know anything, which is why we are here to help you. It is really, it's really great because I feel like we try to make it really comfortable for them to be themselves. It is funny because you would think that as adults they would not care how they acted in a class but it is the same social norms as students. They are still shy, they do not want to say what they think, so it that technique to get them more involved, trying to get them to participate ad finding methods that portray the theme or message across better. I think that is something I have really come to love about SLI-Fam. Also them as individuals, they are parents and they have these funny sayings and they know that we are students so they would be joking around like "Oh when I meet your mom I am going to tell her this" or something. We try to be funny and crack jokes, well mostly me because Laura is a little too serious. But we try to make it really comfortable for them so they can feel free to open up and be themselves.
VLM: Thank you, I think just one last thing that I would like to ask you about. I know that because of this program mostly works with Latino high school students, I am assuming that most of the parents are also Latinos or they identify as Latinos with this culture. How do you think that SLI has to, or you and your co-leader, have to accommodate the way that you all work to kind of fit in cultural differences? In general, how do you think the fact that these parents are Latinos or come from a Latino culture, how do you all take that into consideration when you are planning, when you are having discussions or when you select topics that you talk about?
SL: I think one thing that makes it a little easy, is that most of them are Latino parents and because we are Latina, we know what topics or what to say, I guess if that makes sense. We know based on they being first generation college parents or future college parents, they are not going to know a lot of things. I think that one thing we did not expect coming in to SLI is exactly that. Them not knowing anything, having no base or foundation on a lot of things. Finding the way to explain it in a very simple, but detailed way for them to grasp the idea or the topic if the topic was hard or is hard to do. I think that is why we have trying finding videos and of course incorporating Spanish. Using Spanish in the classroom instead of English because some parents, they do not necessarily feel comfortable with English, so accommodating to that. I know that sometimes for me personally it is hard because I do forget words in Spanish and have to stand there while awkwardly try to remember how to translate it. That is one of the things that we have to take into account when---, taking into account their cultural--, especially taking into account their age and the generation they come from. They may not necessarily understand example we give. So we have to put ourselves in their shoes, or in our parent’s shoes and come up with good examples or things that we would think they understand.
VLM: Yea, is there anything else that you would like to share?
SL: No, I mean I love SLI-Fam. Go parents!
VLM: Awesome, well thank you so much for sharing your experiences. I really appreciate this.
SL: Thank you for interviewing me. [00:23:18]
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Estudiantes
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Selina López es un estudiante de tercer año en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill (UNC, por sus siglas en inglés). A lo largo de su tiempo en la universidad, ha participado con una organización llamada Iniciativa Escolar de Latinos (SLI, por sus siglas en inglés) como mentora y lideresa del programa de participación de padres, llamado SLI-Familia. López habla sobre su puesto actual con los padres y menciona las razones por las cuales continua involucrada en el programa. Comparte varios de los retos que los padres enfrentan al tratar de apoyar a sus estudiantes durante el proceso de aplicación a la universidad y menciona medidas que la organización SLI está tomando al respecto para educar mejor a los padres sobre el proceso. Además, López ofrece recomendaciones que deberían implementarse para asegurar la participación, no sólo de los estudiantes, sino también de los padres, ya que ella reconoce que los padres son un aspecto importante del sistema de apoyo de los estudiantes. También hay una breve discusión de cómo los factores como el estatus migratorio, el idioma y las diferencias culturales pueden imponer desafíos para el involucramiento de los padres durante en este proceso que es crucial para los estudiantes de secundaria.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Selina López por Vianey Lemus Martinez, 16 Abril 2016, R-0858, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Educación para adultos; Educación superior; Programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios
Es: Transcripción
Vianey Lemus Martinez: I am here on April 16th at 1:30pm interviewing Selina Lopez. We are currently at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Can you please state your full name and whether you consent for this interview to be recorded?
Selina Lopez: My full name is Selina Lopez and I do give permission.
VLM: Thank you Selina, could you please start by telling me more about your involvement with SLI.
SL: This year I am a current co-chair for SLI-Fam. What SLI-Fam does is work with the mentee's parents where we try to get them to be more involved with the academic life of their student.
VLM: Great, can you tell me a little bit more about how you personally---, what kind of work do you do to help parents to have this role with the students?
SL: Basically Laura, my other co-chair and I, we get together on Sundays when we have academic events and we make lessons plans geared to educating the parents on important themes such as financial aid or the general college application process. Our goal is to get them informed about this process. We realize that a lot of these parents, like their students, are first-generation college parents in a way. They do not know anything about college because they themselves did not have that opportunity to go.
VLM: Of course. Based on your experiences with SLI, how would you describe the current involvement of parents?
SL: Could you explain more on what you mean by?
VLM: Yea, yea for sure. With this question, would you say that parents are very receptive of the information you give? Would you say that parents--. Which parents would you say that mostly participate in the program? Which don't? What kind of dynamics do you see within the group of parents?
SL: Definitely our sophomore parents or the newly admitted class group of parents are the most involved so far. I think they have expressed various times how thankful they are that Laura and I are trying to teach them these themes because they do not know anything. They come in not necessarily knowing anything so we have to start from level zero. For example, one class period we spent talking about how to calculate a GPA because they did not know what a GPA was. So, through that like---. That was one of our first lessons. Through that lesson we realized, "Wow, we actually have to step back and go a lot slower than we anticipated". I would say that parents in general have always expressed their general gratitude for what SLI-Fam does for them. The difficult part of that would be that parents from previous years such Junior and Senior year, I guess because they did not get trapped, not trapped, but engaged from the beginning they did not see the importance of coming to the SLI-Fam lessons. That is something that sophomore parents especially, Laura and I really tried our best to get them engaged and tell them the importance of why they need to be there.
VLM: Ok, thank you. Again from your experiences, what challenges do you think parents face when working with students who pursue a higher education?
SL: Definitely that barrier in knowledge. Parents, like their student, they do not know anything about how you would pursue a higher education, they just base it off of what their student tells them. Most of the time students do not even try to explain to their parents or they feel like stressed themselves to try to explain it. Parents just assumed that their child is doing fine and what they have to do. I think that is one of the challenges that we did see among the parents. They just relied a lot on that their student being okay and that they are having other resources and sometimes they did forget like "Hey I do have to be a little bit involved in my student's academic career. Just try to support them better."
VLM: Do you think that for example, barriers such as language barriers or educational barriers were also another challenge that parents face?
SL: Yes, definitely because SLI-Fam we teach in Spanish which is probably a great thing because some parents do speak English but some are not proficient or feel comfortable speaking in English and some did express during the year they did not feel comfortable addressing someone like an Anglo-speaking person if they even had questions. I think that langue barrier for sure is another challenge, especially for Latinx parents.
VLM: Some studies and people in general tend to think of Latino parents as being very uninvolved in the education of students, sometimes even have said them to be careless about the education and not pushing students enough. How would you respond to this bed on your experiences working with them?
SL: I think that they are not seeing things from the whole perspective. I think that parents, especially Latino parents---. I know that from my personal experience that my parents even though they were not involved in my academic journey, just with their encouragement and support, like basic "Hey you, go to college, you go have a better life for yourself. You have the opportunity that we did not have." Words like that, sayings like that drove me to pursue education. So I think that perhaps these critics are not necessarily taking into account the culture and the barriers they do face. Not looking at all the different perspectives. Not looking at what they do do. They make sure that their child goes to school, they make them go to school even if the child does not want to. Even though they do not know anything, what happens at school sometimes, but they know that school is good so they force them to go.
VLM: I think also for Latino parents, especially those that are first generation in this process. For many we can assume that they may also identify as immigrants whether this is recent or first-generation immigrants to the country. How do you think their migration experiences or status affects their role in education, of the parents or the students?
SL: I think that is also another big barrier that parents face as well. They have the fear of like you know, especially if they are undocumented, they are less comfortable to be involved because of the fear that they might get caught of being undocumented and therefore cause a problem for their child or even themselves. That is definitely another big barrier that is not usually taken into account.
VLM: What are some of the things that you would hope could change in regards to the parental involvement, whether this is in general with college access programs or specifically with SLI? What are some of the changes that you would like to see?
SL: Specifically, with SLI, I would like to see more older generation parents be more involved. We have a pretty good number of sophomore parents that we think are already engaged and like SLI-Fam and like listening to the lesson plans that we do have planned for them. But reaching out to the Junior, older mentee classes their parents that would be nice to have more response from them because I think that parent involvement is really important. Not to say they do not do enough already because parents do have a very big role; without parents their students their student would not be where they are in that current situation. If they were to be more involved the student would see, feel more supported because they see their parent trying to be involved during their academic journey, which would push them more. Yes, make them generally happy that their parents are involved and care.
VLM: For sure. You mentioned or we talked about some of the steps that hopefully parents could take to be more involved. What are steps that you think SLI itself could take? I think they are already a step forward by having this space that is specifically for parents, but what do you think are other things that SLI could do to involve parents more or make them feel more welcomed to the program?
SL: Definitely incorporating them more in their program. What we have seen so far is that they focus a lot on the mentee class, which is great. But I think if parents feel welcomed from the start, I feel like they would be more willing to come, or be willing to share their time on Sundays when they could be doing something else; they could be running errands but the parents, some of them decide to stay and go to the class. For next year for sure we are planning to do like pre-informationals about what SLI, so parents have an idea of what their responsibility would be within SLI before the program actually started. One of the things we did realize is that again is that the student does not really communicate regarding the program or logistical things. When we were in SLI-Fam, the first day of class, most of the parents did not know what SLI was or what the program actually did, so we had to go through that. Even throughout the year, we had to reiterate things that were going on the rest of the month because they said their student does not really communicate what is going on or when the next event is. We figured that having that direct contact with parents themselves would be best to communicate and get them engaged.
Also, I think that would be helpful for them to create like a community within themselves. That is something that we noticed this year. A lot of the parents used each other as resources, which was great to see because parents came from different sites so they would only see each other like twice a month and they would like "hey how are you? How is work going?" They would have nice side conversations and joke around. It was really nice to see the community building towards the end. That was nice.
VLM: Yea, definitely, I think you mentioned a little bit more about your experiences but what are perhaps some specific instances that you remember through your work with SLI that kind of motivated you to keep doing this work and keep being involved with parents?
SL: A big drive for me is remembering, going through the whole college process, remembering my parents not necessarily being directly involved. They were there in the background as a support and as an encouragement system. But I know that as a student, as a High school student, I wanted them to know or have a general idea of what I had to go through or the process itself. That is one of the big drives for me to do that for the parents of SLI. So they can gain a little bit of knowledge so they know how to better support their student and help them. Realize like "hey my child is going to have to take this standardized testing, let me be at least considerate and be like hey I'm willing to pay for like an SAT prep-course class or something. Or be okay with spending or taking you to the library to study for like an hour or two on Saturday instead of doing chores. I think that that is something that drives me. Within SLI, I saw how parents---. Well a comment that a mom said was that SLI-Fam, the thing she learned really help her communicate more with her student and that they communicate more. They communicate better in relation to academics. She feels like she understands her son a little bit more and what he is going through; that is turn has made their relationship a little bit better because communication is on point.
VLM: Definitely. Sorry I am trying to get my train of thought. Is there anything else regarding your experience with SLI parents that you would like to share about?
SL: I kind of have this thing where I say that the SLI parents are like my kids even though they are older than me. But I really do love seeing them during each academic event because they are coming and willing to learn whatever we teach. They always try to be engaged. That motivates me because it shows me that they do care and they want to better support their child. We are giving them a resource to do that. To see their motivation and engagement in class, in participation---. We do have some shy parents, sometimes they do not to say like the wrong thing because they do not know a lot of these themes, they do not want to say what they think or their opinions. I think it is Laura's and I constant reassurance, like hey it's ok if you do not know anything. This is totally a safe space. It is ok to admit that, because we kind of know that you do not know anything, which is why we are here to help you. It is really, it's really great because I feel like we try to make it really comfortable for them to be themselves. It is funny because you would think that as adults they would not care how they acted in a class but it is the same social norms as students. They are still shy, they do not want to say what they think, so it that technique to get them more involved, trying to get them to participate ad finding methods that portray the theme or message across better. I think that is something I have really come to love about SLI-Fam. Also them as individuals, they are parents and they have these funny sayings and they know that we are students so they would be joking around like "Oh when I meet your mom I am going to tell her this" or something. We try to be funny and crack jokes, well mostly me because Laura is a little too serious. But we try to make it really comfortable for them so they can feel free to open up and be themselves.
VLM: Thank you, I think just one last thing that I would like to ask you about. I know that because of this program mostly works with Latino high school students, I am assuming that most of the parents are also Latinos or they identify as Latinos with this culture. How do you think that SLI has to, or you and your co-leader, have to accommodate the way that you all work to kind of fit in cultural differences? In general, how do you think the fact that these parents are Latinos or come from a Latino culture, how do you all take that into consideration when you are planning, when you are having discussions or when you select topics that you talk about?
SL: I think one thing that makes it a little easy, is that most of them are Latino parents and because we are Latina, we know what topics or what to say, I guess if that makes sense. We know based on they being first generation college parents or future college parents, they are not going to know a lot of things. I think that one thing we did not expect coming in to SLI is exactly that. Them not knowing anything, having no base or foundation on a lot of things. Finding the way to explain it in a very simple, but detailed way for them to grasp the idea or the topic if the topic was hard or is hard to do. I think that is why we have trying finding videos and of course incorporating Spanish. Using Spanish in the classroom instead of English because some parents, they do not necessarily feel comfortable with English, so accommodating to that. I know that sometimes for me personally it is hard because I do forget words in Spanish and have to stand there while awkwardly try to remember how to translate it. That is one of the things that we have to take into account when---, taking into account their cultural--, especially taking into account their age and the generation they come from. They may not necessarily understand example we give. So we have to put ourselves in their shoes, or in our parent’s shoes and come up with good examples or things that we would think they understand.
VLM: Yea, is there anything else that you would like to share?
SL: No, I mean I love SLI-Fam. Go parents!
VLM: Awesome, well thank you so much for sharing your experiences. I really appreciate this.
SL: Thank you for interviewing me. [00:23:18]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-0858 -- López, Selina Jaime.
Description
An account of the resource
Selina Lopez is a third-year student at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (UNC). Throughout her time at UNC, she has been involved with an organization titled Scholar’s Latino Initiative (SLI) as a mentor and co-leader of the parental involvement program, SLI-Familia. Lopez shares insights about her current role with parents as well as reasons that inspire her to be engaged. She shares various challenges that parents face as they work with students throughout the college application process and mentions efforts SLI is taking to better educate parents about the process. Furthermore, Lopez provides recommendations that should be implemented to ensure the involvement not only of the students but also of the parents, as she recognizes that they are an important aspect of the support system for students. There is also a brief discussion of how factors such as immigration status, language barriers, and cultural differences may place challenges for parental involvement during this crucial time for high school students.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
16 April 2016
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
R0858_Audio.mp3
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/27088">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/7ede7f369a92ef28f6b8709bf8ad29fe.mp3
4cdb776f4ec33f9e41f0259073e1901c
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/6274b116abab84efbbebd8d3c4e7ebf4.pdf
47450c85d782e5b6f678224c81098f3e
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0614
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
March 20 2012
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Blau, Judith.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Professors; Social justice activists; Directors, NGOs and institutes
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
United States
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Carrboro -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Wodarski, Miranda.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Dr. Judith Blau is a professor of sociology at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. This interview not only focuses on how the Human Rights Center strives to guarantee Human rights for everyone, but it also focuses on the relationships our community has with the Latino immigrant community in Carrboro, N.C. Dr. Judith Blau describes the current status of relationships between immigrants and Americans in Carrboro, N.C. and Chapel Hill, N.C. and ways in which students, volunteers, and our community can help Latinos to feel more at home. Dr. Blau discusses some obstacles she has faced when establishing the Human Rights Center, but she also describes they ways in which she and her students overcame these issues. She has established many outreach programs such as adult English as a Second Language (ESL) classes, after school programs, computer classes, and volunteer work through her APPLES Social and Economic Justice course. Dr. Blau discusses the prospects for a worker’s program for the Human Rights Center and other goals she wants to achieve in the future.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Judith Blau by Miranda Wodarski, 20 March 2012, R-0614, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/16927
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Citizenship and immigration; Activism; Community and social services and programs; Adult education; Receiving communities
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
(Birds chirping and some cars in the background)
Miranda Wodarski: Okay. This is an Interview with Dr. Blau on March 20, 2012. My name is Miranda Wodarski and I am a sophomore at UNC Chapel Hill. I am conducting this oral history project with hopes to learn more about human rights with regards to immigrants in Carrboro and Chapel Hill in order help link the American population with the immigrant community. It is Tuesday March 20th and it is about 1:45 in the afternoon.
Good Afternoon Dr. Blau, How are you today?
Judith Blau: I'm fine. Thank you, Miranda.
MW: Great. As you probably know, Latinos are today’s fastest growing minority in North Carolina. Recently the town of Chapel Hill, Carrboro, and surrounding areas have seen a steady growth in this segment of the population. I am currently in a global studies course focused on Latino perspectives and Mexican immigration to North Carolina. I have recently been to Guanajuato, Mexico to gain a greater understanding of the factors which fuel immigration to the United States and to gain a greater appreciation of the conditions of the sending communities. This immigration influx however, alters the dynamics of a traditionally homogenous community.
Much of the recent immigration in North Carolina is unwanted and therefore when immigrants do arrive to our community, community members become very hostile and unwelcoming towards the immigrants, which create a segregated community. One of my goals of this project is to discover why nearly
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
6
half of Americans believe immigrants are having a bad influence in our community. Another goal of mine is to discover ways to overcome these negative opinions Americans have towards immigrants and to help produce better relationships between immigrants and Americans in our community. I believe your work with the Human Rights Center is a great effort to ensure that Latinos in our community are treated equally and therefore I would like to learn more about your work.
I am currently a member of the organization called Linking Immigrants to New Communities (LINC) here at UNC and I am on the “Know Your Rights” committee. Through this committee and through the process of this project, I hope to learn more about the rights immigrants are entitled to in our community and to teach other Americans and Latinos about these rights in order for relationships to grow.
I am aware that you were interviewed last March by Elise Stephenson, another student at Chapel Hill. This interview is archived in the Southern Oral History Project Database in Wilson Library at UNC and is open for all students to access and to listen to. I listened to this interview in order to learn more about Elise’s project and also to learn more information about you and your profession.
I am very impressed by all of your work you have done in our community to guarantee Human Rights for everyone. I also volunteer at Abby Court as an ESL teacher and last semester I volunteered at Frank Porter Graham Elementary as a classroom helper in a Spanish dual-language class. I am still tutoring one of the first graders in Spanish reading and writing this semester.
With all that being said, I would like to focus today’s interview not only on Human rights guaranteed for everyone, but on the relationships our community has with the Latino immigrant community. By asking you a few questions, I hope learn more about the current status of the relationships between immigrants and Americans in our community and ways in which we can help. Let’s begin.
MW: You told Elise last year that you moved to North Carolina from New York primarily because of the Department of Sociology. I would first like to ask you about your experiences in New York with Latino immigrants. Did you work with any immigrants while living in New York? If so, what kind of interactions did you have?
JB: Our neighbors to the North, this was called the University are, and er to the North was primarily Puerto Rican. The homeless population was a diverse population. The the no, I was not doing immigration research or studies or advocacy at that time. Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
7
MW: Okay. If you have had experience with the Latino community in New York, how would you describe the relationship between immigrants in New York with the American population?
JB: It's very similar to what we experience here. There is an isolation of the immigrants and the distress of uh of the white population of Latino immigrants.
MW: Do you think immigrants have the same types of jobs as Americans do?
JB: So, that's an interesting question. There's so much uh diversity within the Latino community as some are working in high level position in restaurants. Others as mechanics, very skilled mechanics. Others as day laborers. So there's there's great variation and that depends on the likelihood of their gaining citizen citizenship.
MW: I agree. Are the immigrants given the rights their entitled to in New York, as far as you know?
JB: No (laughing)
MW: Why do you say that?
JB: (laughing) Well, they're a completed marginalized population. (Birds chirping). As, African Americans were in the 1960's.
MW: Okay. Does the American community seem to respect the immigrant community?
JB: No. Your immigrant community is isolated and marginalized. The one major group in Carrboro/Chapel Hill are that have reached out to migrants and have been advocates for them is the NAACP.
MW: Could you explain what that organization does?
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
8
JB: It's the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. So their their, traditional they've been associated with the African American population but their title of this very successful national organization doesn't disclose a particular bias towards one group of colored people or another. Revered Campbell at the Sunday conference. He's the head of the NAACP and the director of RENA at Rogers Road. And he was just brilliant, I mean the expression of solidarity, we're in it together, uh let's go folks, black, brown, all shades of brown, we together will overcome the discrimination.
MW: That's great. Does he work primarily in North Carolina or is this a national organization he's the leader of.
JB: He’s the president of the local chapter of NAACP. And he's the director of RENA Rogers-Eubanks association in Rogers Road.
MW: Okay, interesting. So do you think that the American communities in either in New York or here interact frequently with the Latino population? Or do you think the populations are more segregated than integrated?
JB: They're segregated except for the employers who want to hire cheap labor.
MW: Could you give an example of those employers?
JB: We shut down a couple of restaurants (laughing) for violations of labor laws. The, we pursue as best we can the complaints of the day laborers of wait theft and abuse.
MW: When you say "we" who are you speaking of?
JB: We, the uh the staff of The Human Rights Organization
MW: Okay. And which labor laws are most commonly violated by these restaurant employers?
JB: Paying workers less than what they promised or not paying workers at all.
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
9
MW: Do you find out about these violations through the workers? Or how do you, how are you aware of these violations?
JB: We have a community organizer who spends half half of his time at the corner where day laborers hang out and so he, he, he receives accounts of these stories and then documents them and takes them to Department of Labor.
MW: Okay. That's a great way of doing things. Okay. After you moved to North Carolina from New York, when was your first interaction with a Latino immigrant? (Pause) If you can remember. (laughing).
JB: Well. (Pause). I'm not sure. I think more since I’ve moved to the country and I lived in a predominately black community and now which is becoming increasingly Latino and Latinos, Latinos take my classes.
MW: So do you think a student was your first major interaction with a Latino living in this community.
JB: Okay well I was, it, increasingly, let let me back up and say sociology for the most part emphasizes neutrality and detachment and I thought that was kind of hypocritical (laughing) because everyone I know in sociology, really, truly believes in equality and decency for all people. But they can't let that show up in their research. So, why not? So, well we're trying to live up to scientific standards and we fool ourselves when we think that we are being neutral and detached, we're not. Um, sociologist who study women are not detached. Socialists who study gay/lesbian people are not detached. Poverty, they're not. So we can't admit to our professed values and as I was a founder of the SEJ minor. And so it propelled me in to the direction of con confronting these shall we say, hypocritical values? And the and the students love it (laughing). The students were completely enthusiastic about service learning, about you know, commitment, engagement, so if if there was anything that pulled me into founding the Human Rights Center, it was university students. And then, the next step was to found, found the Human Rights Center.
MW: Okay so did you found the minor before the Human Rights Center?
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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JB: Yes.
MW: Could you describe briefly what the minor entails?
JB: The minor is, I believe, I'm no longer the director of SEJ, but I believe the minor is four courses and uh the first thing I did was to assemble an advisory board of very distinguished faculty and administrators so that if we were attacked by the outside, that we, they would defend us. As it turned out, we didn't need defending. And I taught that course as a theory course for several years. The (laughing) way I got pulled into founding the Human Rights Center, is a student, a first year graduate student, Rafael Gallegos. And I were Abbey Court handing out flyers for El Centro, which doesn't exist anymore and the security guard chased us around and yelled profanities at us. Oh and I had three hundred undergraduates with me.
MW: Wow.
JB: So, he said, he's going to call the police. And I said, "Don’t be silly," but of course it's private property. So he called the police, he called the Sheriff's Department and "zing zing zing zing zing zing," the bells go off and they pull up and the Carrboro Patrol man says, "we're going to have to trespass you unless you leave." So, I made sure that the undergraduates got out before encounter. And Rafael and I left. And I turned to him and I said, "We need to found, found a non-profit in this community. Then we're immune from this harassment." I called Mayor Chilton. I said, "What in the hell is going on?" (laughing). "We can't pass out flyers." And he said, "Call the Chief Police, Carolyn Hudgenson." Which I did, I met with her the next day. And she said, "Well, Judith, you know, you should be relieved that we didn't trespass you." (laughing) And so Carolyn and I have gotten along ever since then.
MW: Okay so have you had many struggles many struggles with trying to found the Human Rights Center, like this?
JB: No. Because the students were so engaged. And so eager play a role in form or another. One of the luckiest things that happened to us, I was walking across the Green Commons at Abbey Court, right after I bought the apartment and I saw a woman reading stories to, oh twenty children were all sitting on the grass. And I said,
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
11
"Well, who are you?" And she said, "I teach at Scroggs Elementary School." And I said, "Oh you don't have to sit out here, come in!" (laughing) So she started an after school program and it has been a huge success.
MW: Why did you decide to buy property in Abbey Court?
JB: Because it's the poorest immigrant community in the county.
MW: Did you know this ahead of time by research? Or how were aware of this?
JB: I think more, more by my observation. The the day laborers, most of the day laborers, live at Abbey Court and they are very poor.
MW: Yes, the students who come to the ESL classes at Abbey Court, you can tell they're day laborers and they work for a day by day salary and it's very sad, but it's great that we have this apartment that we have to work with them and it's so great to see how anxious they are to come every week and to learn English. So I really appreciate that we have this environment to do so.
JB: Well let me congratulate you. It's beginning to show. The, my Spanish is practically non-existent, but that turns out to be okay because people try to communicate with me in English. And they keep getting better and better and better.
MW: That's great. That really makes me feel, special for helping them because I'm not always sure that what I'm teaching sticks in their mind because English is a hard language for them to learn and they've told me that many times, but it really makes me warm when I see how anxious they are to learn and then when they use English outside of the class, that's great. Okay so, please describe your intentions when founding the Human Rights Center here in Carrboro. Were they focused in ensuring the rights of Latinos in our community?
JB: More so, initially more as a vehicle of teaching and, applying human rights standards. Now it turns out (laughing) that human rights means everything: the right to food, the right to water, the right to housing, the right to medical to care, the right to a decent job, the rights of women, the rights of minorities (laughing) and it
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
12
spans the whole spectrum, so we grow because most often students propose programs that are in sync with that mission.
MW: Okay, good answer. According to your experience, which rights are most commonly violated for Latinos in our community?
JB: Labor rights.
MW: Labor rights within, you mentioned, you earlier mentioned restaurants, but what other labor rights have been violated?
JB: Construction. The lat, we welcome the Latinos. From El Salvador, from Honduras, Ecuador. "Come come to America, we have jobs for you, they're low income jobs, but they're better than you can make in your own community," which has been decimated by neoliberalism (laughing). And "so if you come to, come to American and there will be work." (Pause). We don't guarantee you citizenship at all. But we guarantee you work. So now the Latinos who've been here fifteen, eighteen years there is no cue for citizenship. They're they're stuck. And they can't drive a car. Um, they're...now they are protected under the Department of Labor laws. Both at the state and the Federal level. That's really important and that' is what we hold employers accountable for.
MW: Okay. That is very sad, but hopefully we're moving in the right direction to help them. What does the Human Rights Center specifically do in order to prevent these violations?
JB: To prevent them. Well we're whistle blowers when they're violated. Weare planning a big step forward and that’s to create a worker's center where workers and employers will come and employers will be required to register. There’re forty six centers in the United States, the two mayors are sort of abstractly backing this. It, it's (pause) I mean there are there are all kinds of challenges when, when we were kicked out of Abbey Court for violated Home Owner's Association Rules. I mean what we contributed to Abbey Court was tremendous (laughing). That they would kick us out, I found quite surprising, but they did. And the mayor came to bat for us. I went to a Home Owner's Association meeting for Tar Heel Real.., for for Tar Heel Company and there
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
13
were only three people, three adults who were on that board. Which I found a little surprising. And I gave a presentation and presented them with a petition that was signed by twenty two hundred plus, mostly undergraduates. Plus a lovely set of drawings and pictures by the children. "We don't want to leave Abbey Court," and so they just brushed them aside and then in walked Mayor Chilton. Uh and he took out his his recorder, like you have, and they said, they screamed at him and said "put that away," and he said, "no, no, no this is a public meeting." So he, tape recorded the whole thing. They were going to asses a three hundred dollar a day fine. Three hundred dollar a day fine, wow. Um (pause) so he, Mayor Chilton pulled the CEO of Tar Heel Reality back into another room and they talked, I ignored you, they talked about. And then I heard that the three hundred dollar day would be reinstated but we would have to leave by March 1. I said, "No, no, no March 1 is terrible for the students, for the programs." For LINC for example, discontinuity. And they said, "no, it's March 1, so several spent the Winter break looking for another house, another house and we found one on Barnes Street, which is very close. Now, you know we do have a progressive town. They voted to end the war in Iraq, for example. Politically progressive and believe in organic food, etc, etc, but when it comes to having immigrants in their community they're not so progressive. We went, we found several possibilities for houses and nimbyism, and you know what that is? Are not in my backyard.
MW: Ohhh.
JB: Nimbyism is rampant even in Abbey Court, even in Carrboro. So we found the Barnes Street house that we, so far so good.
MW: Okay, that's great news. You mentioned the new Worker Program you're trying to implement.
JB: Ummm hmm
MW: Now I'm aware, I don't know much about the efforts of El Centro, but you mentioned that that was also shut down. Didn't El Centro have a worker program like the one you’re describing to implement or am I wrong?
JB: No they didn't have am employer day laborer's program. They did offer a lot of services.
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
14
MW: Which kind of services did they offer?
JB: It was a very busy office. Legal services? ESL classes, children's classes, then shortly after they shut down, El Centro Hispano moved in. But El Centro Hispano is so far away from the core uh population of Latinos.
MW: That's why Abbey Court is a great location because it's only a mile from, a mile or two from campus and it's in the center of Carrboro.
JB: Yea.
MW: So that's good news. Do you work at all with El Centro Hispano?
JB: Yes.
MW: What do you with them?
JB: Okay, they loaned us fifty translation devices for our conference on Sunday (laughing). I frequently stop by to say hello. My students have the opportunity volunteering there. The the limitation of course is Spanish. But they're a good ally.
MW: I've always wanted to work with El Centro Hispano, but like you said it's a little but further away so it makes it harder, for me to uh get there. So,f from what you described your students have worked a lot with the immigrant population. Is this because you're class requires them to? Or is it by choice? Could you please describe a little about the classes that you teach and the students that work in your classes.
JB: Uh now, there's no choice. The students are all given, right now they're twenty eight uh possibilities to volunteer at the HRC. And its thirty hours per semester. This semester of course was very complicated because we can't, we can't yet start the after school program. We’rewaiting for the fire marshal to sign off on the electrical wiring. But that will happen next week. So we will be offering a full range of services. Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
15
MW: Okay, that's good news. Are, is the course that you teach an APPLES course?
JB: Yes.
MW: Okay and what's the title of this course? It sounds very interesting.
JB: Social and Economic Justice.
MW: Okay, good to know. Okay, how?
JB: That's all I teach.
MW: That's the only course you teach?
JB: I teach, enrollments can go up to two hundred in a given section, if I allow it to (laughing)
MW: Do you usually have a class size of two hundred?
JB: No.
MW: What's the average class size?
JB: Uh a hundred and fifteen.
MW: That's still a lot, especially for an APPLES course.
JB: Yes. Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
16
MW: I took Spanish 204 APPLES last semester and then the Latino Perspective class I'm in now is also an APPLES course but each class had no more than twenty people in it, so that's great that you're able to teach so many students because I bet it's a very popular course. (Pause). I’m curious to know how Latinos in our community know about the Human Rights Center and how they get the news about the events that the Human Rights Center has for our community.
JB: Uh, we distribute flyers and pamphlets. Tomorrow we are distributing tamales (laughing).
MW: Ohhh. Yum!
JB: (Laughing) We generally have two festivals a year. One, Dos Pasados, which is Latino and the other, is Thingyon which is Burmese I think and Quran. And of course there are all of kinds of things.
MW: Okay, that's great. And are those directed solely at Latino immigrants or at every community member?
JB: Every, they're, they have been Abby Court based. And that includes some quaran and Burmese families.
MW: Okay how do these different ethnicities interact with each other?
JB: Because of language, they don't.
MW: Do they even acknowledge each other or is it just the language barrier that keeps them from even, even saying hello?
JB: Oh the children do. I mean the children they they don't care (laughing) what what your what the other person's ethnicity or race is, they just, the children are fantastic. So it it will change with generation.
MW: Okay. Concerning the language barrier, do you think that is a major issue in our community with the Latino population and the American population? As far as segregation goes, do you think that is one of the major problems?
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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JB: Yes, yeah it's not all dis discrimination, it's also the objective language differences.
MW: What do you think the best solution to overcome this language barrier is?
JB: Dual language programs in elementary and secondary schools.
MW: I agree. Do you think that Americans should be working to learn the language of Spanish at an older adult age, for example, the employers that are trying to employ the Latino immigrants. Do you think they should learn Spanish? And the immigrants not learn English? Or do you think it's a two way thing?
JB: It's a two way street.
MW: I agree with that as well. That's one of the main reasons I'm studying Spanish. (Pause) Okay. Do you think our community overall supports the efforts of the Human Rights Center?
JB: (Pause) Okay, in the United States Human Rights is not a known, perspective. I mean here on campus I think increasingly undergraduates are becoming familiar with human rights. In the rest of the world, where countries, is, ratify treaties, human rights treaties, the treaty to eliminate uh discrimination against women, the economic, social, cultural rights, civil and political rights, it, these are discussed in town halls. And and widely understood as part of the process of globalism. Uh if, we need, Human Rights provide a framework for us to relate to people everywhere. But Americans, have never heard about it. We don't ratify the treaties.
MW: Are you working to overcome that problem?
JB: Uh Chapel Hill and Carrboro have, are, as you proposed, endorsed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, uh there were just some some kind of endorsement of the UN convention on the rights of the child in Chapel Hill. We introduced a fair trade proposal. So, it, and it's the students who do this.
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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MW: Okay. After traveling through many cities in the state of Guanajuato, Mexico this past Spring Break and after staying in different towns with different families, I now have a better understanding of their opinions on immigration and the hardships the immigration process has caused. I discovered the primary struggle concerning immigration in many rural towns of Mexico is not the complexity of the physical journey to the United States, but it is more the separation of the family that makes the process of immigration extremely difficult for family members on each side of the border. Have you noticed signs of this hardship in our community?
JB: Yes, we've known people who return back to Mexico even though it would be very difficult for him to get a job because he really missed his family.
MW: Was he unhappy in the United States because of this of the family separation or for other reasons as well?
JB: The family separation.
MW: It was amazing to me while visiting in Mexico how the importance of the family overrode every other aspect of their lives. I really admire that. Do you know any immigrants who are completely content living in the Chapel Hill/Carrboro community.
JB: Well, a person who lives at the HRC I think is pretty content because he's the boss. He's what the town calls the caretaker. So he lives there, he keeps track of programs, he's the greeter. He makes friends with Latinos who move into the area. So he he has so much responsibility and we've trusted him so much that I think he's, I, he was on our panel on Sunday at the conference so I think he's happy.
MW: That's great news. Do you think that most immigrants that attend events of the Human Rights Center respect the efforts of this center? And what about our community population in general?
JB: Those who do come to our events have been very respectful of Latino customs,Burmese customs, it, they're relatively few people from outside of the community who come but now that we're on Barnes Street,
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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we've faced a challenge of, of, of tempting from people from Abby Court to come to Barnes Street and then the outreach in Barnes Street itself.
MW: Had you've had the same amount of attendance in the new location that you had at Abby Court?
JB: It just started last week (laughing).
MW: That's right. So, how has this week been? Has it been successful?
JB: I don't know. I, I'll have to check with the LINC.
MW: Okay, I hope, I hope it is. I hope the location change doesn't prevent Abby Court residents from attending classes.
JB: We got the gravel driveway in as fast as we possibly could, could, so we could give people optional parking.
MW: That's great, little improvements like that really make a difference.
JB: And you should see the inside. I mean it's the most flamboyant, extravaganza, Latino colors (laughing) imaginable.
MW: Who decorated it?
JB: Beto.
MW: Which is what?
JB: Who's Beto? Beto is, lives there.
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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MW: Okay. He is, is he an Abby Court resident?
JB: Now he's a Barnes Street resident (laughing)
MW: Okay so he moved from Abby Court to Barnes Street. Is Barnes Street another poor, immigrant community?
JB: There are disproportionate numbers of Latinos living on this street, but it its more; it’s relatively a more affluent community.
MW: Do Americans live in this community as well?
JB: Very few.
MW: Okay, so this community is pretty segregated as well?
JB: Yes.
MW: Okay. As an outsider.
JB: (interrupting) But we could find no Anglo community that would accept us. So..
MW: Why is that?
JB: Well,we don't want the riff ruff around, you know.
MW: Okay. As an outsider, our community seems to be very segregated. For example, when I walk through Carrboro I immediately can distinguish which stores are owned by Latinos and which are owned by Americans. Do you believe our community is really as segregated as it seems?
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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JB: (thinking) Yes.
MW: Elise told you last year that one of the students she worked with in Abbey Court told her that the reason he didn't try to develop relationships here was because he was afraid if he developed relationships here, he would forget his family and that de didn't want to split his life into two places. Do you think this is still the case for many immigrants?
JB: What a poignant story (laughing).
MW: Umm hmmm.
JB: Yea. Yea, it's hard. It's really hard.
MW: I think that if, the split were to happen, he would find more happiness here rather than just thinking about the family, the student missed back in Mexico. How do you think that our community can make, can make immigrants feel more welcome to split their lives maybe into two places?
JB: There could be Latino centers, Southeast Asian centers, scattered throughout the community. That the town takes more responsibility for, uh en encouraging the in the integration, by that I mean the recognition of differences. You are a Latino, I celebrate you. You are an Anglo, I celebrate you. It's not a homogenization.
MW: Okay. What major improvements, either within or outside of the Human Rights Center do you think Carrboro and Chapel Hill has seen in regards to improving rights for citizens?
JB: Hmmm. Their support for the worker's center.
MW: Is this a widespread, a widespread support?
JB: Umm no, but the two mayors, and the Chamber of Commerce are on board with it. Someone from the National Day Laborers Organizing Network is coming next week to talk with them and with us, to (Blau's cell Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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phone rings). It's the ice cream truck (laughing and ignoring the call). The, uh because of public campaigns and our our understanding of discrimination against African Americans, there has been considerable progress. I mean, you know, I almost hate to use that word because of the disparity in incarceration rates, the disparity in going to college rates, the disparity, and disparity in dropout rates. But in this community, there's, in the South, there is a more give and take between blacks and whites. And maybe that will happen between Latinos and the rest of the population.
MW: We can hope so. What are some of your current goals for the Human Rights Center?
JB: To get a worker's center going (laughing).
MW: Okay. What do you think our community can do to improve the relationship between Latinos and Americans?
JB: Well. Well, students who speak Spanish might get the the Carrboro Century Center or the Arts Center, and and reach out to Latinos and invite them in and have a collaborative music program.
MW: I like that idea. What other things do you think students can do?
JB: (thinking) I think my students who've had contact with both RINA and the Human Rights Center are beginning to put the pieces of the puzzles together.
MW: Okay. I think personal relationships will help improve the overarching relationship in our community with Latinos. Have you made any personal relationships with immigrants? And if so, how have you done so?
JB: Oh yes, I mean in Abby Court, I have many friends. The, part of its give and take. I mean if they don't trust me and it’s not likely we'll find friendship. Butwhen I get included in family affairs with jokes and laughter, I feel great (laughing).
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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MW: I bet they do too. Okay for our final question I would like to ask you, Overall, what do you think is the number one problem for Latinos in our community and what do you think is the best solution this problem?
JB: I, Amnesty (laughing). That everyone, well, need to be clarified but everyone be given US citizenship. They've been here for thirty years. There's no reason to deny them to access to services, to drive, to protection from the laws.
MW: Okay, good answer. Thank you so much for your time Dr. Blau. I look forward to sharing the rest of my research with you once my project is complete.
JB: Wonderful. Thank you very much.
MW: You're welcome.
JB: You're a good interviewer.
MW: Thank you.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Profesores; Activistas por la justicia social; Directores de ONG e institutos
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
La doctora Judith Blau es profesora de Sociología en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill. La entrevista no sólo se centra en la forma en que el Centro de Derechos Humanos se esfuerza por garantizar los derechos humanos para todos, sino también se centra en las relaciones que nuestra comunidad tiene con la comunidad inmigrante latina en Carrboro, en Carolina del Norte. La doctora Judith Blau describe el estado actual de las relaciones entre los inmigrantes y los estadounidenses en Carrboro y Chapel Hill, en Carolina del Norte, y las formas en que estudiantes, voluntarios y nuestra comunidad pueden ayudar a los latinos a sentirse más en casa. La doctora Blau habla de algunos de los obstáculos que ha enfrentado a la hora de establecer el Centro de Derechos Humanos, pero ella también describe las formas en que ella y sus estudiantes superaron estos problemas. Ella ha establecido muchos programas comunitarios, por ejemplo clases de inglés como segundo idioma para adultos (ESL por sus siglas inglés), programas extracurriculares, clases de computación y el trabajo voluntario a través de su clase de justicia social y económica. La doctora Blau habla de las perspectivas de un programa de trabajadores del Centro de Derechos Humanos y otros objetivos que quiere cumplir en el futuro.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Judith Blau por Miranda Wodarski, 20 Marzo 2012, R-0614, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Ciudadanía e inmigración; Activismo; Programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios; Educación para adultos; Comunidades receptoras
Es: Transcripción
(Birds chirping and some cars in the background)
Miranda Wodarski: Okay. This is an Interview with Dr. Blau on March 20, 2012. My name is Miranda Wodarski and I am a sophomore at UNC Chapel Hill. I am conducting this oral history project with hopes to learn more about human rights with regards to immigrants in Carrboro and Chapel Hill in order help link the American population with the immigrant community. It is Tuesday March 20th and it is about 1:45 in the afternoon.
Good Afternoon Dr. Blau, How are you today?
Judith Blau: I'm fine. Thank you, Miranda.
MW: Great. As you probably know, Latinos are today’s fastest growing minority in North Carolina. Recently the town of Chapel Hill, Carrboro, and surrounding areas have seen a steady growth in this segment of the population. I am currently in a global studies course focused on Latino perspectives and Mexican immigration to North Carolina. I have recently been to Guanajuato, Mexico to gain a greater understanding of the factors which fuel immigration to the United States and to gain a greater appreciation of the conditions of the sending communities. This immigration influx however, alters the dynamics of a traditionally homogenous community.
Much of the recent immigration in North Carolina is unwanted and therefore when immigrants do arrive to our community, community members become very hostile and unwelcoming towards the immigrants, which create a segregated community. One of my goals of this project is to discover why nearly
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
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half of Americans believe immigrants are having a bad influence in our community. Another goal of mine is to discover ways to overcome these negative opinions Americans have towards immigrants and to help produce better relationships between immigrants and Americans in our community. I believe your work with the Human Rights Center is a great effort to ensure that Latinos in our community are treated equally and therefore I would like to learn more about your work.
I am currently a member of the organization called Linking Immigrants to New Communities (LINC) here at UNC and I am on the “Know Your Rights” committee. Through this committee and through the process of this project, I hope to learn more about the rights immigrants are entitled to in our community and to teach other Americans and Latinos about these rights in order for relationships to grow.
I am aware that you were interviewed last March by Elise Stephenson, another student at Chapel Hill. This interview is archived in the Southern Oral History Project Database in Wilson Library at UNC and is open for all students to access and to listen to. I listened to this interview in order to learn more about Elise’s project and also to learn more information about you and your profession.
I am very impressed by all of your work you have done in our community to guarantee Human Rights for everyone. I also volunteer at Abby Court as an ESL teacher and last semester I volunteered at Frank Porter Graham Elementary as a classroom helper in a Spanish dual-language class. I am still tutoring one of the first graders in Spanish reading and writing this semester.
With all that being said, I would like to focus today’s interview not only on Human rights guaranteed for everyone, but on the relationships our community has with the Latino immigrant community. By asking you a few questions, I hope learn more about the current status of the relationships between immigrants and Americans in our community and ways in which we can help. Let’s begin.
MW: You told Elise last year that you moved to North Carolina from New York primarily because of the Department of Sociology. I would first like to ask you about your experiences in New York with Latino immigrants. Did you work with any immigrants while living in New York? If so, what kind of interactions did you have?
JB: Our neighbors to the North, this was called the University are, and er to the North was primarily Puerto Rican. The homeless population was a diverse population. The the no, I was not doing immigration research or studies or advocacy at that time. Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
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MW: Okay. If you have had experience with the Latino community in New York, how would you describe the relationship between immigrants in New York with the American population?
JB: It's very similar to what we experience here. There is an isolation of the immigrants and the distress of uh of the white population of Latino immigrants.
MW: Do you think immigrants have the same types of jobs as Americans do?
JB: So, that's an interesting question. There's so much uh diversity within the Latino community as some are working in high level position in restaurants. Others as mechanics, very skilled mechanics. Others as day laborers. So there's there's great variation and that depends on the likelihood of their gaining citizen citizenship.
MW: I agree. Are the immigrants given the rights their entitled to in New York, as far as you know?
JB: No (laughing)
MW: Why do you say that?
JB: (laughing) Well, they're a completed marginalized population. (Birds chirping). As, African Americans were in the 1960's.
MW: Okay. Does the American community seem to respect the immigrant community?
JB: No. Your immigrant community is isolated and marginalized. The one major group in Carrboro/Chapel Hill are that have reached out to migrants and have been advocates for them is the NAACP.
MW: Could you explain what that organization does?
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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JB: It's the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. So their their, traditional they've been associated with the African American population but their title of this very successful national organization doesn't disclose a particular bias towards one group of colored people or another. Revered Campbell at the Sunday conference. He's the head of the NAACP and the director of RENA at Rogers Road. And he was just brilliant, I mean the expression of solidarity, we're in it together, uh let's go folks, black, brown, all shades of brown, we together will overcome the discrimination.
MW: That's great. Does he work primarily in North Carolina or is this a national organization he's the leader of.
JB: He’s the president of the local chapter of NAACP. And he's the director of RENA Rogers-Eubanks association in Rogers Road.
MW: Okay, interesting. So do you think that the American communities in either in New York or here interact frequently with the Latino population? Or do you think the populations are more segregated than integrated?
JB: They're segregated except for the employers who want to hire cheap labor.
MW: Could you give an example of those employers?
JB: We shut down a couple of restaurants (laughing) for violations of labor laws. The, we pursue as best we can the complaints of the day laborers of wait theft and abuse.
MW: When you say "we" who are you speaking of?
JB: We, the uh the staff of The Human Rights Organization
MW: Okay. And which labor laws are most commonly violated by these restaurant employers?
JB: Paying workers less than what they promised or not paying workers at all.
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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MW: Do you find out about these violations through the workers? Or how do you, how are you aware of these violations?
JB: We have a community organizer who spends half half of his time at the corner where day laborers hang out and so he, he, he receives accounts of these stories and then documents them and takes them to Department of Labor.
MW: Okay. That's a great way of doing things. Okay. After you moved to North Carolina from New York, when was your first interaction with a Latino immigrant? (Pause) If you can remember. (laughing).
JB: Well. (Pause). I'm not sure. I think more since I’ve moved to the country and I lived in a predominately black community and now which is becoming increasingly Latino and Latinos, Latinos take my classes.
MW: So do you think a student was your first major interaction with a Latino living in this community.
JB: Okay well I was, it, increasingly, let let me back up and say sociology for the most part emphasizes neutrality and detachment and I thought that was kind of hypocritical (laughing) because everyone I know in sociology, really, truly believes in equality and decency for all people. But they can't let that show up in their research. So, why not? So, well we're trying to live up to scientific standards and we fool ourselves when we think that we are being neutral and detached, we're not. Um, sociologist who study women are not detached. Socialists who study gay/lesbian people are not detached. Poverty, they're not. So we can't admit to our professed values and as I was a founder of the SEJ minor. And so it propelled me in to the direction of con confronting these shall we say, hypocritical values? And the and the students love it (laughing). The students were completely enthusiastic about service learning, about you know, commitment, engagement, so if if there was anything that pulled me into founding the Human Rights Center, it was university students. And then, the next step was to found, found the Human Rights Center.
MW: Okay so did you found the minor before the Human Rights Center?
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
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JB: Yes.
MW: Could you describe briefly what the minor entails?
JB: The minor is, I believe, I'm no longer the director of SEJ, but I believe the minor is four courses and uh the first thing I did was to assemble an advisory board of very distinguished faculty and administrators so that if we were attacked by the outside, that we, they would defend us. As it turned out, we didn't need defending. And I taught that course as a theory course for several years. The (laughing) way I got pulled into founding the Human Rights Center, is a student, a first year graduate student, Rafael Gallegos. And I were Abbey Court handing out flyers for El Centro, which doesn't exist anymore and the security guard chased us around and yelled profanities at us. Oh and I had three hundred undergraduates with me.
MW: Wow.
JB: So, he said, he's going to call the police. And I said, "Don’t be silly," but of course it's private property. So he called the police, he called the Sheriff's Department and "zing zing zing zing zing zing," the bells go off and they pull up and the Carrboro Patrol man says, "we're going to have to trespass you unless you leave." So, I made sure that the undergraduates got out before encounter. And Rafael and I left. And I turned to him and I said, "We need to found, found a non-profit in this community. Then we're immune from this harassment." I called Mayor Chilton. I said, "What in the hell is going on?" (laughing). "We can't pass out flyers." And he said, "Call the Chief Police, Carolyn Hudgenson." Which I did, I met with her the next day. And she said, "Well, Judith, you know, you should be relieved that we didn't trespass you." (laughing) And so Carolyn and I have gotten along ever since then.
MW: Okay so have you had many struggles many struggles with trying to found the Human Rights Center, like this?
JB: No. Because the students were so engaged. And so eager play a role in form or another. One of the luckiest things that happened to us, I was walking across the Green Commons at Abbey Court, right after I bought the apartment and I saw a woman reading stories to, oh twenty children were all sitting on the grass. And I said,
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
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"Well, who are you?" And she said, "I teach at Scroggs Elementary School." And I said, "Oh you don't have to sit out here, come in!" (laughing) So she started an after school program and it has been a huge success.
MW: Why did you decide to buy property in Abbey Court?
JB: Because it's the poorest immigrant community in the county.
MW: Did you know this ahead of time by research? Or how were aware of this?
JB: I think more, more by my observation. The the day laborers, most of the day laborers, live at Abbey Court and they are very poor.
MW: Yes, the students who come to the ESL classes at Abbey Court, you can tell they're day laborers and they work for a day by day salary and it's very sad, but it's great that we have this apartment that we have to work with them and it's so great to see how anxious they are to come every week and to learn English. So I really appreciate that we have this environment to do so.
JB: Well let me congratulate you. It's beginning to show. The, my Spanish is practically non-existent, but that turns out to be okay because people try to communicate with me in English. And they keep getting better and better and better.
MW: That's great. That really makes me feel, special for helping them because I'm not always sure that what I'm teaching sticks in their mind because English is a hard language for them to learn and they've told me that many times, but it really makes me warm when I see how anxious they are to learn and then when they use English outside of the class, that's great. Okay so, please describe your intentions when founding the Human Rights Center here in Carrboro. Were they focused in ensuring the rights of Latinos in our community?
JB: More so, initially more as a vehicle of teaching and, applying human rights standards. Now it turns out (laughing) that human rights means everything: the right to food, the right to water, the right to housing, the right to medical to care, the right to a decent job, the rights of women, the rights of minorities (laughing) and it
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
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spans the whole spectrum, so we grow because most often students propose programs that are in sync with that mission.
MW: Okay, good answer. According to your experience, which rights are most commonly violated for Latinos in our community?
JB: Labor rights.
MW: Labor rights within, you mentioned, you earlier mentioned restaurants, but what other labor rights have been violated?
JB: Construction. The lat, we welcome the Latinos. From El Salvador, from Honduras, Ecuador. "Come come to America, we have jobs for you, they're low income jobs, but they're better than you can make in your own community," which has been decimated by neoliberalism (laughing). And "so if you come to, come to American and there will be work." (Pause). We don't guarantee you citizenship at all. But we guarantee you work. So now the Latinos who've been here fifteen, eighteen years there is no cue for citizenship. They're they're stuck. And they can't drive a car. Um, they're...now they are protected under the Department of Labor laws. Both at the state and the Federal level. That's really important and that' is what we hold employers accountable for.
MW: Okay. That is very sad, but hopefully we're moving in the right direction to help them. What does the Human Rights Center specifically do in order to prevent these violations?
JB: To prevent them. Well we're whistle blowers when they're violated. Weare planning a big step forward and that’s to create a worker's center where workers and employers will come and employers will be required to register. There’re forty six centers in the United States, the two mayors are sort of abstractly backing this. It, it's (pause) I mean there are there are all kinds of challenges when, when we were kicked out of Abbey Court for violated Home Owner's Association Rules. I mean what we contributed to Abbey Court was tremendous (laughing). That they would kick us out, I found quite surprising, but they did. And the mayor came to bat for us. I went to a Home Owner's Association meeting for Tar Heel Real.., for for Tar Heel Company and there
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
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were only three people, three adults who were on that board. Which I found a little surprising. And I gave a presentation and presented them with a petition that was signed by twenty two hundred plus, mostly undergraduates. Plus a lovely set of drawings and pictures by the children. "We don't want to leave Abbey Court," and so they just brushed them aside and then in walked Mayor Chilton. Uh and he took out his his recorder, like you have, and they said, they screamed at him and said "put that away," and he said, "no, no, no this is a public meeting." So he, tape recorded the whole thing. They were going to asses a three hundred dollar a day fine. Three hundred dollar a day fine, wow. Um (pause) so he, Mayor Chilton pulled the CEO of Tar Heel Reality back into another room and they talked, I ignored you, they talked about. And then I heard that the three hundred dollar day would be reinstated but we would have to leave by March 1. I said, "No, no, no March 1 is terrible for the students, for the programs." For LINC for example, discontinuity. And they said, "no, it's March 1, so several spent the Winter break looking for another house, another house and we found one on Barnes Street, which is very close. Now, you know we do have a progressive town. They voted to end the war in Iraq, for example. Politically progressive and believe in organic food, etc, etc, but when it comes to having immigrants in their community they're not so progressive. We went, we found several possibilities for houses and nimbyism, and you know what that is? Are not in my backyard.
MW: Ohhh.
JB: Nimbyism is rampant even in Abbey Court, even in Carrboro. So we found the Barnes Street house that we, so far so good.
MW: Okay, that's great news. You mentioned the new Worker Program you're trying to implement.
JB: Ummm hmm
MW: Now I'm aware, I don't know much about the efforts of El Centro, but you mentioned that that was also shut down. Didn't El Centro have a worker program like the one you’re describing to implement or am I wrong?
JB: No they didn't have am employer day laborer's program. They did offer a lot of services.
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
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MW: Which kind of services did they offer?
JB: It was a very busy office. Legal services? ESL classes, children's classes, then shortly after they shut down, El Centro Hispano moved in. But El Centro Hispano is so far away from the core uh population of Latinos.
MW: That's why Abbey Court is a great location because it's only a mile from, a mile or two from campus and it's in the center of Carrboro.
JB: Yea.
MW: So that's good news. Do you work at all with El Centro Hispano?
JB: Yes.
MW: What do you with them?
JB: Okay, they loaned us fifty translation devices for our conference on Sunday (laughing). I frequently stop by to say hello. My students have the opportunity volunteering there. The the limitation of course is Spanish. But they're a good ally.
MW: I've always wanted to work with El Centro Hispano, but like you said it's a little but further away so it makes it harder, for me to uh get there. So,f from what you described your students have worked a lot with the immigrant population. Is this because you're class requires them to? Or is it by choice? Could you please describe a little about the classes that you teach and the students that work in your classes.
JB: Uh now, there's no choice. The students are all given, right now they're twenty eight uh possibilities to volunteer at the HRC. And its thirty hours per semester. This semester of course was very complicated because we can't, we can't yet start the after school program. We’rewaiting for the fire marshal to sign off on the electrical wiring. But that will happen next week. So we will be offering a full range of services. Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
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MW: Okay, that's good news. Are, is the course that you teach an APPLES course?
JB: Yes.
MW: Okay and what's the title of this course? It sounds very interesting.
JB: Social and Economic Justice.
MW: Okay, good to know. Okay, how?
JB: That's all I teach.
MW: That's the only course you teach?
JB: I teach, enrollments can go up to two hundred in a given section, if I allow it to (laughing)
MW: Do you usually have a class size of two hundred?
JB: No.
MW: What's the average class size?
JB: Uh a hundred and fifteen.
MW: That's still a lot, especially for an APPLES course.
JB: Yes. Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
16
MW: I took Spanish 204 APPLES last semester and then the Latino Perspective class I'm in now is also an APPLES course but each class had no more than twenty people in it, so that's great that you're able to teach so many students because I bet it's a very popular course. (Pause). I’m curious to know how Latinos in our community know about the Human Rights Center and how they get the news about the events that the Human Rights Center has for our community.
JB: Uh, we distribute flyers and pamphlets. Tomorrow we are distributing tamales (laughing).
MW: Ohhh. Yum!
JB: (Laughing) We generally have two festivals a year. One, Dos Pasados, which is Latino and the other, is Thingyon which is Burmese I think and Quran. And of course there are all of kinds of things.
MW: Okay, that's great. And are those directed solely at Latino immigrants or at every community member?
JB: Every, they're, they have been Abby Court based. And that includes some quaran and Burmese families.
MW: Okay how do these different ethnicities interact with each other?
JB: Because of language, they don't.
MW: Do they even acknowledge each other or is it just the language barrier that keeps them from even, even saying hello?
JB: Oh the children do. I mean the children they they don't care (laughing) what what your what the other person's ethnicity or race is, they just, the children are fantastic. So it it will change with generation.
MW: Okay. Concerning the language barrier, do you think that is a major issue in our community with the Latino population and the American population? As far as segregation goes, do you think that is one of the major problems?
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
17
JB: Yes, yeah it's not all dis discrimination, it's also the objective language differences.
MW: What do you think the best solution to overcome this language barrier is?
JB: Dual language programs in elementary and secondary schools.
MW: I agree. Do you think that Americans should be working to learn the language of Spanish at an older adult age, for example, the employers that are trying to employ the Latino immigrants. Do you think they should learn Spanish? And the immigrants not learn English? Or do you think it's a two way thing?
JB: It's a two way street.
MW: I agree with that as well. That's one of the main reasons I'm studying Spanish. (Pause) Okay. Do you think our community overall supports the efforts of the Human Rights Center?
JB: (Pause) Okay, in the United States Human Rights is not a known, perspective. I mean here on campus I think increasingly undergraduates are becoming familiar with human rights. In the rest of the world, where countries, is, ratify treaties, human rights treaties, the treaty to eliminate uh discrimination against women, the economic, social, cultural rights, civil and political rights, it, these are discussed in town halls. And and widely understood as part of the process of globalism. Uh if, we need, Human Rights provide a framework for us to relate to people everywhere. But Americans, have never heard about it. We don't ratify the treaties.
MW: Are you working to overcome that problem?
JB: Uh Chapel Hill and Carrboro have, are, as you proposed, endorsed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, uh there were just some some kind of endorsement of the UN convention on the rights of the child in Chapel Hill. We introduced a fair trade proposal. So, it, and it's the students who do this.
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
18
MW: Okay. After traveling through many cities in the state of Guanajuato, Mexico this past Spring Break and after staying in different towns with different families, I now have a better understanding of their opinions on immigration and the hardships the immigration process has caused. I discovered the primary struggle concerning immigration in many rural towns of Mexico is not the complexity of the physical journey to the United States, but it is more the separation of the family that makes the process of immigration extremely difficult for family members on each side of the border. Have you noticed signs of this hardship in our community?
JB: Yes, we've known people who return back to Mexico even though it would be very difficult for him to get a job because he really missed his family.
MW: Was he unhappy in the United States because of this of the family separation or for other reasons as well?
JB: The family separation.
MW: It was amazing to me while visiting in Mexico how the importance of the family overrode every other aspect of their lives. I really admire that. Do you know any immigrants who are completely content living in the Chapel Hill/Carrboro community.
JB: Well, a person who lives at the HRC I think is pretty content because he's the boss. He's what the town calls the caretaker. So he lives there, he keeps track of programs, he's the greeter. He makes friends with Latinos who move into the area. So he he has so much responsibility and we've trusted him so much that I think he's, I, he was on our panel on Sunday at the conference so I think he's happy.
MW: That's great news. Do you think that most immigrants that attend events of the Human Rights Center respect the efforts of this center? And what about our community population in general?
JB: Those who do come to our events have been very respectful of Latino customs,Burmese customs, it, they're relatively few people from outside of the community who come but now that we're on Barnes Street,
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
19
we've faced a challenge of, of, of tempting from people from Abby Court to come to Barnes Street and then the outreach in Barnes Street itself.
MW: Had you've had the same amount of attendance in the new location that you had at Abby Court?
JB: It just started last week (laughing).
MW: That's right. So, how has this week been? Has it been successful?
JB: I don't know. I, I'll have to check with the LINC.
MW: Okay, I hope, I hope it is. I hope the location change doesn't prevent Abby Court residents from attending classes.
JB: We got the gravel driveway in as fast as we possibly could, could, so we could give people optional parking.
MW: That's great, little improvements like that really make a difference.
JB: And you should see the inside. I mean it's the most flamboyant, extravaganza, Latino colors (laughing) imaginable.
MW: Who decorated it?
JB: Beto.
MW: Which is what?
JB: Who's Beto? Beto is, lives there.
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
20
MW: Okay. He is, is he an Abby Court resident?
JB: Now he's a Barnes Street resident (laughing)
MW: Okay so he moved from Abby Court to Barnes Street. Is Barnes Street another poor, immigrant community?
JB: There are disproportionate numbers of Latinos living on this street, but it its more; it’s relatively a more affluent community.
MW: Do Americans live in this community as well?
JB: Very few.
MW: Okay, so this community is pretty segregated as well?
JB: Yes.
MW: Okay. As an outsider.
JB: (interrupting) But we could find no Anglo community that would accept us. So..
MW: Why is that?
JB: Well,we don't want the riff ruff around, you know.
MW: Okay. As an outsider, our community seems to be very segregated. For example, when I walk through Carrboro I immediately can distinguish which stores are owned by Latinos and which are owned by Americans. Do you believe our community is really as segregated as it seems?
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
21
JB: (thinking) Yes.
MW: Elise told you last year that one of the students she worked with in Abbey Court told her that the reason he didn't try to develop relationships here was because he was afraid if he developed relationships here, he would forget his family and that de didn't want to split his life into two places. Do you think this is still the case for many immigrants?
JB: What a poignant story (laughing).
MW: Umm hmmm.
JB: Yea. Yea, it's hard. It's really hard.
MW: I think that if, the split were to happen, he would find more happiness here rather than just thinking about the family, the student missed back in Mexico. How do you think that our community can make, can make immigrants feel more welcome to split their lives maybe into two places?
JB: There could be Latino centers, Southeast Asian centers, scattered throughout the community. That the town takes more responsibility for, uh en encouraging the in the integration, by that I mean the recognition of differences. You are a Latino, I celebrate you. You are an Anglo, I celebrate you. It's not a homogenization.
MW: Okay. What major improvements, either within or outside of the Human Rights Center do you think Carrboro and Chapel Hill has seen in regards to improving rights for citizens?
JB: Hmmm. Their support for the worker's center.
MW: Is this a widespread, a widespread support?
JB: Umm no, but the two mayors, and the Chamber of Commerce are on board with it. Someone from the National Day Laborers Organizing Network is coming next week to talk with them and with us, to (Blau's cell Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
22
phone rings). It's the ice cream truck (laughing and ignoring the call). The, uh because of public campaigns and our our understanding of discrimination against African Americans, there has been considerable progress. I mean, you know, I almost hate to use that word because of the disparity in incarceration rates, the disparity in going to college rates, the disparity, and disparity in dropout rates. But in this community, there's, in the South, there is a more give and take between blacks and whites. And maybe that will happen between Latinos and the rest of the population.
MW: We can hope so. What are some of your current goals for the Human Rights Center?
JB: To get a worker's center going (laughing).
MW: Okay. What do you think our community can do to improve the relationship between Latinos and Americans?
JB: Well. Well, students who speak Spanish might get the the Carrboro Century Center or the Arts Center, and and reach out to Latinos and invite them in and have a collaborative music program.
MW: I like that idea. What other things do you think students can do?
JB: (thinking) I think my students who've had contact with both RINA and the Human Rights Center are beginning to put the pieces of the puzzles together.
MW: Okay. I think personal relationships will help improve the overarching relationship in our community with Latinos. Have you made any personal relationships with immigrants? And if so, how have you done so?
JB: Oh yes, I mean in Abby Court, I have many friends. The, part of its give and take. I mean if they don't trust me and it’s not likely we'll find friendship. Butwhen I get included in family affairs with jokes and laughter, I feel great (laughing).
Interview number R-0614 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,
The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
23
MW: I bet they do too. Okay for our final question I would like to ask you, Overall, what do you think is the number one problem for Latinos in our community and what do you think is the best solution this problem?
JB: I, Amnesty (laughing). That everyone, well, need to be clarified but everyone be given US citizenship. They've been here for thirty years. There's no reason to deny them to access to services, to drive, to protection from the laws.
MW: Okay, good answer. Thank you so much for your time Dr. Blau. I look forward to sharing the rest of my research with you once my project is complete.
JB: Wonderful. Thank you very much.
MW: You're welcome.
JB: You're a good interviewer.
MW: Thank you.
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-0614 -- Blau, Judith.
Description
An account of the resource
Dr. Judith Blau is a professor of sociology at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. This interview not only focuses on how the Human Rights Center strives to guarantee Human rights for everyone, but it also focuses on the relationships our community has with the Latino immigrant community in Carrboro, N.C. Dr. Judith Blau describes the current status of relationships between immigrants and Americans in Carrboro, N.C. and Chapel Hill, N.C. and ways in which students, volunteers, and our community can help Latinos to feel more at home. Dr. Blau discusses some obstacles she has faced when establishing the Human Rights Center, but she also describes they ways in which she and her students overcame these issues. She has established many outreach programs such as adult English as a Second Language (ESL) classes, after school programs, computer classes, and volunteer work through her APPLES Social and Economic Justice course. Dr. Blau discusses the prospects for a worker’s program for the Human Rights Center and other goals she wants to achieve in the future.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
March 20 2012
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
R0614_Audio.mp3
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/16927">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/96d772c64213174b8e01e29f13275c9a.mp3
6f8f0a796edc52bf414289553b7dde42
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/b3d7bdf39c62e58bd16cd389b1ccfe38.pdf
5aaeec87ef801f3bd9f5d798deaf99be
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0464
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
10 April 2011
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
García, Carmen.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Students Homemakers
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Leon -- Guanajuanto -- Mexico
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Durham -- Durham County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-101.68596049999996 21.1250077),1958,1;POINT(-78.898619 35.9940329),2000,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Miller, Olivia.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Spanish
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Carmen Garcia is a middle-aged migrant and mother of two from Leon, Guanajuanto, Mexico. Garcia lived in California for thirty years before moving to Durham, North Carolina after the death of her husband. She lives with her daughter, who is married and works for the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Garcia received a sixth grade education in Mexico but is currently seeking her GED. In this interview, Garcia discusses the importance of education and the need to keep her American-born children involved and aware of issues and the culture of the Latino community.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Carmen Garcia by Olivia Miller, 10 April 2011, R-0464, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/6288
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Education; Adult education; Family; Migratory experience; Culture
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Olivia Miller: My name is Olivia Miller. Today I'm interviewing Carmen García in the Student Union at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and we will be discussing the effects of education on different generations between parents and their children. Y para empezar, Carmen, puedes- cuéntame del origen de su familia.
Carmen García: Mi familia, toda es mexicana. Venimos del estado de Guanajuato, un estado del centro de México.
OM: ¿Y porque vino a los Estados Unidos?
CG: Vine a Estados Unidos porque mi esposo, lo conocí en México pero el obtuvo su residencia a través de un hermano de él. Ese vino dos años y después fue por mí. Se caso y me trajo a Estados Unidos.
OM: Y vives- ¿cuando llegó a los Estados Unidos, Carolina del Norte fue el primer estado?
CG: No. Mi primer estado fue California y yo viví en California por treinta años.
OM: Y ahora, ¿por qué vives en Carolina del Norte?
CG: Ahora estoy en Carolina del Norte porque mi hija mayor, Jazmín, ella decidió que le gustaba mucho Carolina del Norte y ella se quiso mudar a este estado. Y desafortunadamente mi esposo falleció entonces yo vine a estar cerca de mi hija.
OM: ¿Cuál es su formación académica en México? ¿Y qué nivel de la educación ha recibido?
CG: Bueno, en México, solamente estudié hasta al sexto año y de allí tuve nada mas dos años como de instrucción para hacer ayudante de contador público. Entonces ese es mi educación.
OM: ¿Y del resto de su familia?
CG: Del resto de mi familia, la mayor de mis hermanos terminaron, tal vez, la preparatoria, algunos. Solamente uno graduado de la universidad de diez hermanos que somos en la familia.
OM: ¿Y su marido?
CG: Mi esposo no termino la "high school." El le falto poquito para terminar pero nunca lo termino.
OM: ¿Y que es común para México y para el estado de Guanajuato? ¿Hay muchas personas que terminan la secundaria?
CG: Últimamente yo creo que han mejorado mas los papas que yo creo de mi generación todo lo que es solo-- como somos familia tan grande y por parte mi esposo también, entonces han procurado mas apoyar a sus hijos, a mandarlos a mas-- a un nivel un poquito mas alto. Entonces dentro de mi circulo, hemos apoyado mucho más a nuestros hijos. Por lo menos si han empezado ir a la universidad. Pero de todos mis hermanos o mis cuñados y eso, no tenemos titulo de universidad.
OM: Y si tienes un titulo de universidad, ¿qué puedes hacer en México? ¿Hay muchas cosas?
CG: No, desafortunadamente, es muy difícil conseguir un trabajo en México. Y todos mis sobrinos, los que han conseguido un titulo universitario, es muy difícil tener un trabajo. Realmente son mucho mas competitivos. Las empresas no tienen todavía la capacidad para todos estos estudiantes que gradúan de una universidad.
OM: ¿Y todavía es como eso? Hay muchas personas que creen que no es como-
CG: [interrupted to finish the question] necesario ir a universidad? Si. Hay muchas personas que no creen que es necesario que vayan a universidad. Muchos papas creen que es mejor que el hijo aprenda un oficio o empiece a trabajar para ayudar a los hermanos menores.
OM: ¿Y cuántos personas hay en su familia?
CG: Somos diez. Somos una familia bastante numerosa. De los diez, solamente uno fue a la universidad.
OM: ¿Y el nivel de educación es diferente para hombres y mujeres?
CG: Si. Desafortunadamente, mis hermanos tienen un poquito más de nivel educativo que nosotras, las mujeres. Las mujeres siempre nos quedamos- Yo creo que mis hermanas, todas como un nivel hasta sexto año.
OM: ¿Y eso es algo, como un producto de su familia o de México, la cultura de México?
CG: Yo pienso que mas cultura de familia, y bueno, de México también. Ahora yo creo que es un poquito diferente pero en mis tiempos era mas cultura de México que las mujeres no se vayan bien que estudiaron. Mi papa siempre me decía, "Tú vas a ser ama de casa. No es necesario que vayas a universidad. Tú estudias para que aprendas a cocinar. Tú estudias para que aprendas a coser vestidos. O estudia el correlacionado para ser una ama de casa." No precisamente para ser una profesional fuera de la casa.
OM: ¿Y hay muchas familias que dicen la misma cosa hoy en día?
CG: Yo creo que no. Han cambiado. Es un México mucho, al menos en el circulo de mi familia y mis sobrinos, ya ha cambiado mucho. Las mujeres ya están aprendiendo más. Ya están yendo más a un nivel más alto de estudio que nosotras en nuestros tiempos.
OM: Y sus padres, ¿cómo han hablado de la educación cuando tu tenia--?
CG: Bueno, mi papa quería que los hombres estudiaron más. Desafortunadamente, nunca los apoyo cien por ciento entonces ellos a caso terminaron la prepa, o si no, se quedaron a la mitad. Pero, todos aprendieron un oficio entonces realmente no le importaban tanto tanto que fueron a la universidad. Mi mama nos apoyaba un poco más pero pues también, la economía no era tan buena en esos tiempos, entonces no era fácil poder pagar una carrera universitaria.
OM: ¿Y la educación que si recibí hasta el sexto grado, cuáles son sus pensamientos sobre la educación mexicana?
CG: Yo pienso que en ese tiempo la educación era fantástica porque yo me siento con una capacidad muy muy alta aparte de que fue nada mas hasta sexto año. Era muy muy buena. Nosotros íbamos a la escuela a la mañana y vamos en la tarde. Teníamos dos turnos. Y aparte de eso, los maestros eran muy muy buenos. Mi papa y mi mama también estudiaron hasta el tercer año de primaria pero mi mama se sabia todas las capitales del mundo. Mi papa tenia una ortografía excelente. Los dos tenían muy buena escritura. Entonces, aunque no era muy alto el nivel hasta donde una estudiaba pero la calidad del estudio era muy buenos en esos tiempos. Ahora me imagino que ha de caído porque no lo mismo pero era muy muy buena anteriormente.
OM: Y con todos sus hijos-- ¿sus hijos nacieron aquí en los Estados Unidos?
CG: Si. Tengo dos hijos y los dos nacieron aquí en Estados Unidos.
OM: ¿Y puedes ver muchas diferencias entre los sistemas educativos entre los dos países?
CG: Si. Si definitivamente si. Yo le doy gracias a Dios que mis hijos nacieron en este país. Le doy también gracias a Dios que ellos dos tienen trabajo de acuerdo también a lo que ellos estudiaron, lo que quieren hacer. Y mis sobrinos en México les ha costado mucho mucho trabajo seguir por lo que ellos tienen de estudios universitarios trabaja en sus carreras.
OM: ¿la educación es importante para usted ahora? Estas -
CG: Si, por supuesto, es muy muy importante. Como yo nunca obtuve mi diploma de la prepa o de la "high school", entonces estoy aprendiendo, estoy yendo a la escuela para tener mi diploma de GED. Estoy estudiando esto. Entonces quiero, por el orgullo tener ( ) aparte de eso, para sentirme mejor.
OM: ¿Hay otras migrantes en la clase?
CG: No. No que yo conozca. No. Solamente estoy yo. Ahorita estoy yendo a un corso con el contador de Orange aquí y nada mas estoy yo. No conozco nadie más que esta yendo para el GED.
OM: ¿Y es difícil? ¿Como esta?
CG: Es difícil porque lo estoy haciendo en inglés y mi idioma principal es el español. Entonces es mucho mas competitivo para me hacerlo en inglés pero lo estoy haciendo también porque quiero mejorar mi inglés. Yo nunca fui a la escuela para aprender inglés porque siempre me quede en la casa para atender a mis hijos. Entonces realmente el inglés que yo se y el inglés que aprendí fue atreves de ellos, de estar ayudante de los maestros, y apoyándolos a ellos. Aprendí sin ir a la escuela.
OM: Si, y como- ¿Que influencia ha tenido su formación académica en la educación de sus hijos?
CG: Yo creo que bastante. Nosotros-- Gracias a Dios, que mi esposo y yo en ese aspecto estaba muy muy firmas en que teníamos que apoyar para que ellos sale- sacaron en una universidad. Entonces nosotros sacrificamos muchos puntos en nuestras vidas porque no era fácil pero siempre estuvimos allí apoyándolos en lo que mas podíamos para que ellos sacaran su carrera universitaria. Entonces era muy importante para nosotros que ellos fueron a la universidad.
OM: ¿Y había programas entre los-- como en las escuelas primarias para padres que no pueden hablar inglés? ¿Había mucho apoyo?
CG: No.
OM: Entonces como- ¿qué tipos de cosas hicieron para apoyar a sus niños?
CG: Yo creo que más que nada lo que hicimos fue que revisar que tuvieron toda las tareas, que atendían a toda las sesiones informáticas que hubiera de universidades. Siempre que cumplieran con todos- y que estuvieron bien envueltos en toda la comunidad. Entonces siempre nosotros preguntamos, preguntamos cual es la mejor forma para llegar a la universidad. Mi hijo era muy bueno en deportes pero decían que para hacer un atleta en una universidad es más difícil que ser un buen estudiante y atender a universidad. Entonces nosotros lo apoyaba más- le insistimos que fueron mejor estudiante que ni mejor atleta para que asistieron a universidad. Y gracias a Dios, los dos fueron a la universidad.
OM: ¿Y los dos tienen como una titulación de la universidad o hay más?
CG: Si si. No. Bueno mi hijo ahorita esta siendo su programa para ser un CPA, porque él tiene su "major" en "accounting." Y mi hija es una abogada. Ella si fue a escuela de leyes después de la universidad.
OM: ¿Es importante para que sus hijos reciben una educación de buena calidad? ¿Había una opción para ellos a regresar a México para ir a universidad?
CG: Nunca vimos esa posibilidad porque queríamos que ellos estuvieran bien firmes aquí. Entonces nunca pensamos en regresar a-- que ellos fueron a universidad a México. Y lo que nosotros hicimos tal vez mucho sacrificio económico y desafortunadamente o afortunadamente, no se, los pusimos en escuela privada desde kindergarten hasta la universidad. La universidad era privada también entonces— Hubo bastante esfuerzo por parte mi esposo que trabajaba muchísimo y todo el dinero, la mayoría se da enfocado mas a principalmente la educación de los muchachos, de los hijos.
OM: Y en California, ¿estaban viviendo en una comunidad de migrantes? ¿De latinoamericanos?
CG: Yo creo que estamos viviendo en una comunidad muy mezclada, había de todo. Cuando reci- llegamos allí mas bien era una- ¿que será? — muy muy muy muy mezclado. Había mucha gente mayor, pocos niños jóvenes y eso, pero muy muy mezclado. Si, mucha gente de otros países pero también mucha gente anglosajona.
OM: Y las familias, como migrantes y otras familias de Centroamérica y todo, ¿sus hijos estaban como haciendo la universidad y buscando titulaciones o sus hijos fueron como un poco únicos?
CG: Pues, yo creo que ellos más bien fueron como a un "college" de dos años primero y después para la universidad. Entonces mis hijos fueron de los pocos hispanos que realmente se fueron directamente a una universidad de cuatro años.
OM: ¿Y como se ha destacado la importancia de la educación a sus hijos? ¿Hablaron de México y las diferencias?
CG: Siempre, siempre tuvimos a México como un ejemplo y siempre les inculcamos que nosotros queríamos que ellos será mejor que nosotros. Que si por algún motivo nosotros no pudimos - porque el papa de mi esposo murió cuando mi esposo era muy joven, el no tuvo mucho apoyo de tu papa entonces queríamos nosotros como el papa. Darles todo todo ese apoyo para que ellos sobresalieran y era muy muy importante para nosotros que terminaran su carrera.
OM: Y como tu estas en un clase de GED pero su esposo, cuando el llego a los Estados Unidos, ¿ha tenido una experiencia con la sistema educativa de los Estados Unidos? ¿O el empezó a trabajar?
CG: El empezó a trabajar. El empezó a trabajar. Muy muy joven empezó a trabajar.
OM: ¿Y qué tipo de trabajo? porque él fue con-- ¿estaba con su hermano no?
CG: Si. El empezó a trabajar en la compañía donde trabajaba su hermano que era una compañía de una fábrica de botellas de vidrio. Entonces era un trabajo muy pesado pero bien pagado. Afortunadamente, desafortunadamente. Bien pagado que bueno. Desafortunadamente uno en lugar de ir a la escuela otra vez de regreso se queda en el trabajo. Entonces él era muy inteligente, lo que hizo fue subiendo de grado por su inteligencia que la tenia pero no por sus estudios.
OM: ¿Y usted? ¿Que tipo de--?
CG: Yo nunca, realmente, trabaje. Entonces yo era-- me quede en la casa con los hijos. Porque con su trabajo, era rotativo, entonces era muy difícil. Realmente este – tuve trabajos secundarios por ejemplo, yo me metí a trabajar en la escuela, en la cafetería que era trabajo de cuatro horas. Porque era muy importante para mi quedarme en la casa cuando los hijos regresaron de la casa. Y también estuve trabajando en otra compañía como ayudante de contador un poquito. Entonces-- Pero eran trabajos como, poquito. Realmente no era un trabajo serio ni formal.
OM: ¿Y porque es importante para usted para recibir su GED?
CG: Yo creo que es un- algo que yo quiero para mí misma, algo que yo quiero superarme. Para que mis hijos también se sient— como yo me siento orgullosa de ellos, que ellos se sientan orgullosos de mi. Ahora que puedo, que tengo el tiempo que me quiero superar. Y quiero valerme más por mi misma también.
OM: Y estaba diciendo que había una diferencia entre los hombres y mujeres en su familia con la educación. ¿Había algo como eso en su familia con su hija e hijo?
CG: No. Fue exactamente lo mismo, exactamente. En ese aspecto, nosotros siempre pensamos que ella también tiene que estar súper bien educada como lo está el.
OM: ¿Y cuáles son sus opiniones sobre las diferencias entre la educación en México y la educación en los Estados Unidos?
CG: Es difícil porque, como tengo tantos años de vivir aquí, entonces no estoy muy segura pero en México que han graduado también tienen-- La educación es diferente, es diferente. Yo me imagino que hay ciertos programas que esta mucho mejor. Cuando mi papa estaba muy muy grave en tiempo, entonces yo amaba tanto mi papa que saque mis hijos de la escuela aquí y me los llevo a México. Y estuvieron dos meses en la escuela en el mismo grado que iba aquí. Y desafortunadamente, todos los niños en México iban mucho mas adelantados que los que mis hijos iban. Y eso que mis hijos atendían a buena escuela. Y yo creo que estaban bastante adelantados pero una si este fue muy difícil para ellos porque no iban al mismo nivel de escuela. Era mucho más adelantado en México que aquí. Difícil.
OM: ¿Como cree que el nivel de educación de una persona puede afectar su vida? En México y aquí.
CG: Yo pienso que aquí los hispanos nos tenemos que poner las pilas como luego decimos porque es muy importante que nos superemos. Mucho mas los hispanos porque estamos muy fuertes en este país. Desafortunadamente, todavía los papas venimos con un miedo de mandar a los hijos a la universidad porque no tenemos el dinero, porque se van a ir lejos o porque pensamos que el dinero es mas importante que la educación. ( ) sabes a muchas veces el dinero, ahorita que vas a ser- no necesito más que ni tu educación en el futuro. Entonces yo creo que los hispanos, si tenemos que aprender más ir mas lejos. Estaban mucho mas lideres. Estaban mucho mas gente preparada para todos los trabajos.
OM: ¿Y como puedes cambiar como este tipo de mente que el dinero es mas importante que la educación?
CG: Yo pienso que tenemos que-- los medios de comunicación y tal vez los papas son las comunic-. Yo cada que hablo con algún papa hispano le dijo es muy importante. Esto es la mejor herencia que le puedes dejar a tu hijo. No buen educación. El dinero que venga no va a ser nada. Es mas importante la educación porque esa no la tira, no la vende, no la regala, no la prestan. Es la educación que ellos tienen y puede ayudarles a formar una mejor familia y ser una mejor persona. Una muy buen educación.
OM: ¿Y hay programas y cosas que pueden ayudar ahora?
CG: Yo me imagino que tiene que ver algún programa o algo que debe de haber. Por ejemplo a mi me encanta la televisión español y por supuesto el canal de español. Esta promoviendo mucho que es el momento, que es para los hispanos. Ojala que todos lo tuve por lugar correcto. Que deben de aprovechar para que manden sus hijos a la universidad. Que no tengan miedo de que una no va a poder pagar. Yo creo que hay muchísimas becas. Hay muchísimas maneras y hay- Si se puede, yo pienso que si se puede mandarlos a la universidad. Con sacrificios, pero si se puede.
OM: ¿Puedes hablar un poco sobre el ser un migrante ha afectado su puntos de vista sobre la educación?
CG: Okay. Yo creo que a lo mejor viniendo de México, de papas tan humildes- Vivimos en una economía mas humilde que alta y la ver tenido ganas de estudiar así adelante que la economía no era. Entonces el venida aquí tener un poquito mas de dinero y para mi era muy importante en lugar de comprarles carro, de comprarles ropa con nombres o eso, era mas importante pagar la colegiatura o mandarlos a la escuela. Entonces para mi era muy importante que ellos fueran unos buenos mexicanos, representando a México a los Estados Unidos. Ellos siendo nacidos aquí, para mi siempre soy orgullosa de mis hijos son mexicanos y tienen una carrera. Porque yo creo que venir, ver a toda la gente que muchas veces no quieren mandar a sus hijos a la escuela o que no se quieren superar o que vienen y no quieren hacer algo mejor. Entonces para mi era muy importante enseñar que, viniendo de México, si se puede y tenemos que lograrlo.
OM: ¿Y cómo ha afectado las experiencias educativas de sus hijos? Como tener padres migrantes-
CG: Yo creo que nunca en si también ha sido difícil para ellos porque hay que ellos que han tenido que lidiar con las dos culturas. Como mi esposo era mexicano y yo mexicana, en realidad, yo fui aprendiendo junto con ellos. Cuando yo — Cuando mis hijos iban al "high school", yo no sabía que era un "junior," un "sophomore," un "freshman" entonces. Dice "que es eso." Entonces tengo que aprenderme esa palabra, tengo que aprendérmela. Tengo que decirlo- No decir el primer año en México, siempre se usa el primero, segundo, tercero, cuarto año de prepa. Pero aquí el tiene sus nombres. Entonces poco a poco yo fui aprendiendo. Gracias a Dios, mi hija mayor tenia muchas ganas de superarse. Entonces ella fue un poco mas líder y nosotros la apoyábamos pero ella era una gran gran influencia para mi hijo también.
OM: ¿Y su esposo tenía mucha -- estaba muy involucrado en la educación de sus hijos también?
CG: Si. Definitivamente, si. El siempre les preguntaba. El siempre les decía que no quería que fueron un trabajador como él porque eso trabajo de él era muy muy pesado. Como las botellas se hacen con mucha alumbre entonces a las veces se quemaba. Tenia muchos accidentes. Se quemaba la mano. Se quemaba el cuerpo o algo con el vidrio derretido. Dice "yo no quiero que tu vayas a pasar por que yo estoy pasando. Tienes que ir a la escuela. Tienes que ir a la escuela. Entonces siempre estuvo hablando con ellos, influenciarlos para que terminaran su carrera.
OM: ¿Y sus hijos agradecen la educación?
CG: Si. Yo creo que si. Yo los doy muy contento. Si, a mi me encanta cuando mis hijos siempre dicen "soy un mexicano, aunque yo nací en Estados Unidos pero que son mexicanos con educación." Que mucha gente a veces es difícil y no pueden creer que los mexicanos podemos lograr aparte de venir de tan pocos recursos y que ellos logran algo bueno.
OM: ¿Y sus hijos han visitado a México y pueden ver al sistema?
CG: Si, claro que si. Nosotros siempre-- como tenemos toda nuestra familia en México todavía entonces viniendo de los diez hermanos, siete viven en México todavía. Entonces procuramos regresar cada año por lo menos una vez al año porque para mi, la cultura mexicana es muy importante que yo aprenden también para que yo sepan valorar un país y el otro y quieran y amen a los dos, igual manera. Con sus raíces pero también viven y son americanos por haber nacido en este país.
OM: ¿Y su siete hermanos que viven en México, que tipo de educación han recibido? ¿Ha buscado a una titulación?
CG: Mis hermanos no espe- ninguno mas que uno. Pero de mis sobrinos, yo diría que cincuenta cincuenta. Cincuenta por ciento si, cincuenta por ciento no. Tengo sobrinos que, realmente, no podía ir a universidad. Y yo me imagino que si a caso terminaron la secundaria o la preparatoria pero no han ido a la universidad. No todos han tenido la oportunidad de ir a la universidad.
OM: ¿Y porque no tenía la oportunidad?
CG: Yo creo que razones económicas, lo primero, y también yo creo que ese apoyo de los papas. Muchas veces los papas, todavía, aunque son mis hermanos, no piensan que es tan importante tener una carrera.
OM: Porque ellos no están como— no pueden ver que, como sus hijos tienen titulación y todo y es algo bueno, ¿ellos no pueden ver la diferencia?
CG: Yo creo que el quedarte en una ciudad y el ver todo como un circulito, muchas veces no pueden ver afuera de ese circulo. Entonces ellos piensan que lo mas normal, y lo mas común, el circulo en el que viven y no pueden salir de ese circulo tan fácilmente. Entonces les cuesta mucho trabajo realmente ver mas allá, que ellos pueden lograr más de lo que tienen.
OM: Y la comunidad que viven sus hermanos, ¿es la misma comunidad que tu creciste?
CG: Si. Es la misma comunidad.
OM: ¿Y todavía esta-?
CG: Todavía esta allí, si. Mitad y mitad, yo creo.
OM: ¿Y cuál parte de Guanajuato?
CG: Es León. León, Guanajuato, la ciudad.
OM: ¿Y todavía es muy humilde? ¿Que es la situación en León ahora?
CG: León tiene de todo, un poco. Porque León era— es una ciudad industrial muy grande. La gente se dedica a ser zapatos. Entonces mi papa comenzó siempre por una fabriquita de zapatos entonces, el lo que realmente les enseño a mis hermanos hacer zapatos. Entonces la mayoría están relacionados con hacer zapatos o también curtir la piel para hacer los zapatos. Entonces están relacionados mas que nada en esa industria y es a lo que se dedican ellos. Mas relacionado con lo que el estado- o la ciudad era lo mas fuerte en industria zapatería.
OM: ¿Y las personas que tienen una titulación que fueron a la universidad, que hacen?
CG: Desafortunadamente, no han podido trabajar en su carrera en México. Varios de mis sobrinos están trabajando para el gobierno como secretarios de alguna oficina del gobierno. Otro esta trabajando por el mismo. Es a veces mas fácil poner un pequeño negocio en dentro de ellos mismos. A trabajar en dentro de lo que es su carera es muy difícil, muy difícil. Por ejemplo, otro de mis sobrinos que graduó también trabaja con el papa porque no puede conseguir el trabajo de lo que ellos titularon en México.
OM: ¿Tienes familia aquí en los Estados Unidos ahora?
CG: Aquí en Estados Unidos, tengo dos hermanas, mis dos hermanas. Y tengo sobrinos grandes. De mis sobrinos, solamente uno esta titulado de la universidad. Mi hermana, otra hermana tiene cuatro hijos. De los cuatro, ninguno esta titulado de la universidad.
OM: ¿De una razón económica?
CG: Fuera razón económica y tal vez que no los apoyaron desde un principio. Ella es mi hermana, la mayor, entonces sus hijos, como que tenían ganas ir a la escuela, muy buenos estudiantes, uno fue "valedictorian" en la "high school," y a una si con becas y eso no lo dejaron ni de estudiar. Dijeron que no. Porque no querían que fuera o se fuera a otro estado o a otra ciudad mas grande de donde ellos viven, y no lo dejaron ni eso. Entonces no tiene título.
OM: ¿Y sus sobrinos, que piensan de eso?
CG: Ellos les hubieran encantado tener su carrera. Pero los papas no los apoyaron.
OM: ¿Y hay una opción para regresar a la universidad?
CG: Ahorita en este tiempo, no sé de la verdad. Tal vez, si pudieran, ellos hacerlo si quisieren con mas esfuerzo porque están más grandes. Pero yo me imagino que si pudieran.
OM: ¿Su hermana piensa ahora que debe hacer algo--?
CG: Si. Siempre. A veces dice que pase el tiempo y cuesta más trabajo por regresar otra vez a la escuela.
OM: ¿Y en México, cuesta mucho para ir a la universidad?
CG: Si, cuesta mucho dinero. Cuesta mucho mucho dinero a venir a la universidad. Las universidades buenas son caras y las públicas son muy competitivas, muy muy competitivas porque no hay muchas. Entonces para entrar a la universidad pública es muy difícil.
OM: ¿Y las universidades son más caras en México que aquí? ¿O depende?
CG: Yo me imagino que no son tan caras como aquí. Pero como la economía es- la gente no gana. Lo que gana aquí, les cuesta mas trabajo mandar a los hijos a la universidad que ni aquí. Porque aquí se pueden conseguir mas becas y aquí, por ejemplo- con sacrificio puedes conseguir este los prestamos estudiantiles, o los prestamos que te da el gobierno, o las becas que te dan el gobierno también.
OM: ¿Y el gobierno, que están haciendo para la educación en México?
CG: Ahorita esta tan difícil que yo creo que el gobierno esta mas concentrado en todo lo que es cuestión de las drogas que ni en la educación, desafortunadamente. Pero no se. Tengo muchos años que no vivo en México pero yo me imagino que no esta poniendo mucho mucho de tu parte. El gobierno pasado, creo, el presidente pasado hizo mas esfuerzo. El decía que todos los niños tenían que atender a la escuela.
OM: ¿Porque si no tenias una titulación de universidad, que puedes-? ¿Necesitas graduar de la prepa para hacer algo?
CG: No, si ahora están los trabajos mucho más competitivos también. Mucho más competitivos...por lo menos necesitan la prepa para tener un trabajo más o menos bueno.
OM: ¿Y la educación es una razón para que muchas personas migran?
CG: Yo pienso que es, mas que nada, la economía. Mas que la educación. A lo mejor es de la economía tan mala en México es lo que hace a mucha gente se venga a tratar de trabajar. Mas que- no pueden ir a la escuela entonces me imagino que es más la economía que ni la educación.
OM: ¿Y su familia que todavía viven en México, han pensado de migrar a los Estados Unidos?
CG: Mi papa les puso en la mente a todo el mundo que no venían a Estados Unidos. Entonces mi papa decía Estados Unidos es un país muy difícil. No es fácil. Entonces es mejor que ustedes mantengan su familia aquí, que no salgan de aquí. Entonces dentro de mis hermanos, realmente, ninguno estaba con el deseo de venirse porque, gracias a Dios, por menos que sea pudieron ir a la escuela. Que sea terminaron la secundaria o la preparatoria. Entonces, un poquito, que mi papa tuvo esfuerzo ponerlos a todos en la escuela y eso lo mejor les ayudo a poner su pequeño negocio, en lo que trabajan entonces, tal vez por eso, no tienen el tanto deseo de venir. Pero si hay mucha gente de muchos mas bajos recursos que no tienen nada de educación de escuela y que no pueden trabajar en otra cosa entonces trabaja en el campo. A veces es tan difícil, que es por eso que migran a los Estados Unidos, tratando de venir a trabajar del campo. Porque hay más trabajos en el campo, sin educación, entonces es lo que más se consigue trabajo.
[Interrupted interview question to ask how to say a word in Spanish]
OM: ¿Que tipos de obstáculos han encontrado con la sistema educativa de los Estados Unidos?
CG: En realidad, obstáculos, yo puedo decir que no muchos. No muchos obstáculos. A lo mejor, no, no, no realmente no puedo pensar a algo que me haya- Tal vez porque estuvimos siempre preguntando preguntando preguntando viendo a la mejor manera de mandar a los hijos a la universidad. Entonces yo pienso que no, no, no muchos obstáculos. Era difícil para nosotros la economía era lo mas pesado para nosotros mandarlos a la universidad porque si había mucho sacrificio de parte de mi esposo incluso teníamos que estar con el dinero bien recortaditos para poder hacer todos los pagos para los libros, las cosas que se necesitan aparte que ellos tenían becas y todo para apoyarlos. Pero realmente yo creo que si se puede. No muchos obstáculos. Informándote, informándote, preguntando, preguntando. Puedes hacerlo.
OM: ¿Y para otras familias?
CG: Para otras familias, yo creo que es el miedo. Yo conocí mucha gente y todavía hasta la fecha, incluso mi hermana, la mayor, todavía con sus hijos sigue, "Yo no quiero que se vayan de mi lado. Yo no-." Mucha gente me dice, "¿porque dejas que tus hijos se vayan a otro estado estudiar? ¿Y porque dejas que se vayan de la casa? y que no los dejes ir de la casa. Y que es mejor la familia unida que ni la educación. No los dejes que vayan estudiar. Es peligroso." Entonces, yo pienso que muchas familias tienen un miedo a dejar ir a los hijos a que se superen en otra ciudad o en otro estado. Y eso es un obstáculo numero uno. Y otro, el miedo que tienen, no se puede pagar. La gente es muy negativa. No se puede, no se puede. No hay dinero, no hay dinero, no hay dinero. Y todo lo visto mucho, mucho, mucho mas en los hispanos, que dicen que no hay dinero para ir a universidad. Y eso es muy muy triste porque yo pienso que si se puede.
OM: ¿Y eso es algo, como una cosa de la cultura?
CG: Si. Es muy cultural. Tengo muy buenos amigos en Los Ángeles que no dejan que sus hijos se vayan cerquita de donde ellos viven. Ellos no se quieren mover de donde ellos viven aunque el área ya está más peligrosa o que sea diferente. Pero ellos quieren estar allí todo el tiempo como la raíz y quieren que los hijos estén allí cerquita, cerquita- Como un circulo. Que no quieren que nada los disturbe ni la saga desaparecer o moverse un lado al otro. Aunque no se superen pero allí están. Tiene que estar unidos como un ( ).
OM: ¿Y cree que eso es algo que necesita cambiar? ¿O puede cambiar?
CG: Definitivamente. Yo pienso que debería de cambiar. Yo pienso que la gente tiene que hablar mas con las personas- Yo creo que los medios de comunicación decir que tenemos que, tenemos que, tenemos que educar, educarnos. Y que si se puede. Yo pienso que si se puede. Yo pienso que si se puede.
OM: ¿Y cómo puedo- el gobierno de los Estados Unidos puede hacer algo para-?
CG: Por supuesto que si. Mucho mas compañías dedicadas a la comunidad hispana. Yo pienso que es muy conveniente para el gobierno de los Estados Unidos que se dedique mas a la educación de la gente hispana. Es tanto creciendo en este país. Tan, tan, tan rápidamente porque- tú sabes que el numero de hispanos ahora es mucho mayor. Entonces es muy conveniente que todos esos hispanos que vienen creciendo, todos los muchachos jovencitos que vayan a la escuela, que se eduquen para tener un mejor país. Yo pienso que el gobierno tiene que- las escuelas tienen que ser mejores también. A mi me da tanta pena como un jugador de "basketball" hace tantos millones y un maestro no haga, ni si quiera un dinero que está educando nuestra gente, que esta educando nuestra familia. Y aparte de eso, las escuelas depende de dónde vives, es el dinero que ellos reciben por los impuestos. Entonces es muy triste que los niños hispanos vienen con una educación mucho más baja que la gente anglosajona o la gente que ha vivido mas en este país. Porque, incluso, a mi me paso. Que a mis hijos les acostó mas trabajo en el aspecto que yo no hablaba inglés. Que su primera lengua de ellos fue el español. Entonces si yo les enseñaba en la casa era puro español, cuando ellos si llegan al kindergarten, le dijo a mi hija, "tienes que gatear. Can you crawl?" Y ella no sabía lo que significaba esa palabra. Dice, "que es eso." Y si no la niña tan chiquita decía, ¿y que significa? Entonces todo esos palabras que nosotros no estamos realmente acostumbrados. Entonces para ellos les costo muchísimo mas trabajo, mucho mas aprender lo que las palabras, las costumbres de este país, viniendo de dos papas mexicanos, realmente residentes en este país. Entonces para ellos, si. Mi respeto es que no es fácil porque aparte de que la cultura, las familias, y todos somos tan diferentes. Entonces si, si les ha costado mas trabajo, pero, pero si se puede. Si se puede. Yo digo siempre si se puede.
OM: ¿Y qué tipos de programas necesitamos para ayudar?
CG: Yo pienso que maestros capacitados. Muchos maestros. Las escuelas necesitan tener muchos programas para ayudar a los papas y también ayudar a los alumnos. Entonces me imagino yo que el gobierno poner mas atención en los maestros que están incapacitados para, desde un principio, ayudar al niño desde pre-school, desde kindergarten. Enseñarlos. Ponerlos buenos raíces. Y si tu lo expones al niño en la mentalidad desde están chiquitos, que tienen que seguir, que es lo mejor, que tienen que seguir estudiando, que es lo normal, que es el curso normal de la vida, yo pienso que para ellos también es mas fácil al final decidir ir a la universidad que ni decir me graduó de la high school y me voy al trabajo. Entonces, yo pienso que es- los maestros tienen mucha influencia sobre los niños. Entonces yo digo bueno nuestro poner mas dinero para que los maestros ganen bien y yo me imagino que un maestro debería de ganar muy, pero muy bien porque es la base de un país. La base de la educación de nuestros hijos. La base de que todos estemos aprendiendo.
OM: ¿Y cree que-- cree que pueden ser diferente si usted hablaba inglés?
CG: Por supuesto que si. Había sido mucho mas fácil para mis hijos. Para todo. Porque yo los ha podido ayudar mucho más hacer sus tareas. A las palabras que nos entendían, lo mejor desde un pequeño estuvieron tal vez hablados los dos idiomas que no aprendieron hasta que fueron realmente a la escuela. Fue donde ellos aprendieron. Cuando estaban en kindergarten o ya en primer año. Entonces hubiera sido mucho mas ligera la transición de culturas y de aprendizaje si yo hubiera hablado inglés. Hubiera sido mas fácil para mi también apoyarlos porque si hay momentos en los que uno se le dificulta comprender tantas cosas entonces- Pero por supuesto.
OM: ¿Y sus hijos, que piensan sobre su educación? ¿Y qué van a hacer con sus nietos?
CG: Bueno, yo creo que ellos están en el punto que quieren que sus hijos también, si Dios se los da, que no tienen ahorita, es de seguir adelante que ellos también que tengan una buena educación, que vayan a la escuela, que terminen su universidad. Ellos ya tienen en la mente que quieren que sus hijos terminen su universidad también que sea profesionales como ellos.
OM: ¿Y para los últimos minutos quiere, como, contarme algo mas sobre la educación? ¿Sobre su experiencia con la educación?
CG: Bueno, ¿que te puedo contar? Realmente yo estoy muy muy orgullosa que viniendo de una familia tan grande, yo soy la numero ocho, no teniendo realmente educación escolar. La educación era la de que me dieron mis papas. Mi esposo lo mismo. Nos casamos muy jóvenes. Si realmente para mi es un orgullo que mis hijos hayan continuado a la escuela. Para mi es un orgullo que ellos ser unos mexicanos bien formados en este país porque podemos guiarlos por esa manera, que pudimos guiarlos. Que ellos realmente- mi hijo es contador, tiene buen trabajo en su compañía. Lo aprecian mucho. Mi hija termino sus cuatro años con un "degree" de ciencias políticas y español. Y aparte de eso se fue a escuela de leyes entonces ella es abogada. Y para mi es un orgullo que tengan la educación suficiente para seguir el camino que ellos pueden tener adelante. Entonces que triunfen en la vida que ellos sean el ejemplo de otras personas migrantes realmente porque no fue fácil, no fue- no es como contarlo que decir [sigh]. Realmente es un orgullo tenerlos, ni fue como hacer una tortilla bien rapidita. No no no. Fue un proceso bastante difícil. Fue difícil para ellos también. En las dos culturas. Entonces mucho tiempo estuvimos mi esposo y yo, como dudándonos. "¿Vamos a México? ¿Nos quedamos? Gracias a Dios, que teníamos la oportunidad de ir y ven porque como el tenia residencia, gracias al hermano. Pero aun así- fue mucho esfuerzo. Mucho mucho esfuerzo. Y pienso por parte de mis hijos también. Y todavía- yo siempre he dicho, "eres un mexicano y tienes que ser orgulloso. Eres un americano y tienes que poner el ejemplo." Entonces tu siempre- a donde quiera que vayas, tienes que poner el ejemplo porque tienes dos nacionalidades y eres un ejemplo a seguir. Tienen que seguir adelante. Hablen con sus amigos. Entonces si, era lo único que te digo que no fue fácil pero si se puede.
OM: Muy bien, muchas gracias.
CG: Gracias a ti, Olivia.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Estudiantes; Amas de casa
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Español
Es: Resumen
Carmen García es una inmigrante de mediana edad y es la madre de dos niños de León, en Guanajuato, en México. García vivió en California durante treinta años antes de mudarse a Durham, en Carolina del Norte, tras la muerte de su esposo. Ella vive con su hija, que está casada y trabaja para la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill. García recibió estudió hasta el sexto grado en México, pero actualmente está buscando el grado equivalente de preparatoria (GED, por sus siglas en inglés). En esta entrevista, García habla de la importancia de la educación y la necesidad de mantener a sus hijos nacidos en Estados Unidos involucrados, informados y conscientes de los problemas y de la cultura de la comunidad latina.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Carmen Garcia por Olivia Miller, 10 Abril 2011, R-0464, en la Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Educación; Educación para adultos; Familia; Experiencia migratoria; Cultura
Es: Transcripción
Olivia Miller: My name is Olivia Miller. Today I'm interviewing Carmen García in the Student Union at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and we will be discussing the effects of education on different generations between parents and their children. Y para empezar, Carmen, puedes- cuéntame del origen de su familia.
Carmen García: Mi familia, toda es mexicana. Venimos del estado de Guanajuato, un estado del centro de México.
OM: ¿Y porque vino a los Estados Unidos?
CG: Vine a Estados Unidos porque mi esposo, lo conocí en México pero el obtuvo su residencia a través de un hermano de él. Ese vino dos años y después fue por mí. Se caso y me trajo a Estados Unidos.
OM: Y vives- ¿cuando llegó a los Estados Unidos, Carolina del Norte fue el primer estado?
CG: No. Mi primer estado fue California y yo viví en California por treinta años.
OM: Y ahora, ¿por qué vives en Carolina del Norte?
CG: Ahora estoy en Carolina del Norte porque mi hija mayor, Jazmín, ella decidió que le gustaba mucho Carolina del Norte y ella se quiso mudar a este estado. Y desafortunadamente mi esposo falleció entonces yo vine a estar cerca de mi hija.
OM: ¿Cuál es su formación académica en México? ¿Y qué nivel de la educación ha recibido?
CG: Bueno, en México, solamente estudié hasta al sexto año y de allí tuve nada mas dos años como de instrucción para hacer ayudante de contador público. Entonces ese es mi educación.
OM: ¿Y del resto de su familia?
CG: Del resto de mi familia, la mayor de mis hermanos terminaron, tal vez, la preparatoria, algunos. Solamente uno graduado de la universidad de diez hermanos que somos en la familia.
OM: ¿Y su marido?
CG: Mi esposo no termino la "high school." El le falto poquito para terminar pero nunca lo termino.
OM: ¿Y que es común para México y para el estado de Guanajuato? ¿Hay muchas personas que terminan la secundaria?
CG: Últimamente yo creo que han mejorado mas los papas que yo creo de mi generación todo lo que es solo-- como somos familia tan grande y por parte mi esposo también, entonces han procurado mas apoyar a sus hijos, a mandarlos a mas-- a un nivel un poquito mas alto. Entonces dentro de mi circulo, hemos apoyado mucho más a nuestros hijos. Por lo menos si han empezado ir a la universidad. Pero de todos mis hermanos o mis cuñados y eso, no tenemos titulo de universidad.
OM: Y si tienes un titulo de universidad, ¿qué puedes hacer en México? ¿Hay muchas cosas?
CG: No, desafortunadamente, es muy difícil conseguir un trabajo en México. Y todos mis sobrinos, los que han conseguido un titulo universitario, es muy difícil tener un trabajo. Realmente son mucho mas competitivos. Las empresas no tienen todavía la capacidad para todos estos estudiantes que gradúan de una universidad.
OM: ¿Y todavía es como eso? Hay muchas personas que creen que no es como-
CG: [interrupted to finish the question] necesario ir a universidad? Si. Hay muchas personas que no creen que es necesario que vayan a universidad. Muchos papas creen que es mejor que el hijo aprenda un oficio o empiece a trabajar para ayudar a los hermanos menores.
OM: ¿Y cuántos personas hay en su familia?
CG: Somos diez. Somos una familia bastante numerosa. De los diez, solamente uno fue a la universidad.
OM: ¿Y el nivel de educación es diferente para hombres y mujeres?
CG: Si. Desafortunadamente, mis hermanos tienen un poquito más de nivel educativo que nosotras, las mujeres. Las mujeres siempre nos quedamos- Yo creo que mis hermanas, todas como un nivel hasta sexto año.
OM: ¿Y eso es algo, como un producto de su familia o de México, la cultura de México?
CG: Yo pienso que mas cultura de familia, y bueno, de México también. Ahora yo creo que es un poquito diferente pero en mis tiempos era mas cultura de México que las mujeres no se vayan bien que estudiaron. Mi papa siempre me decía, "Tú vas a ser ama de casa. No es necesario que vayas a universidad. Tú estudias para que aprendas a cocinar. Tú estudias para que aprendas a coser vestidos. O estudia el correlacionado para ser una ama de casa." No precisamente para ser una profesional fuera de la casa.
OM: ¿Y hay muchas familias que dicen la misma cosa hoy en día?
CG: Yo creo que no. Han cambiado. Es un México mucho, al menos en el circulo de mi familia y mis sobrinos, ya ha cambiado mucho. Las mujeres ya están aprendiendo más. Ya están yendo más a un nivel más alto de estudio que nosotras en nuestros tiempos.
OM: Y sus padres, ¿cómo han hablado de la educación cuando tu tenia--?
CG: Bueno, mi papa quería que los hombres estudiaron más. Desafortunadamente, nunca los apoyo cien por ciento entonces ellos a caso terminaron la prepa, o si no, se quedaron a la mitad. Pero, todos aprendieron un oficio entonces realmente no le importaban tanto tanto que fueron a la universidad. Mi mama nos apoyaba un poco más pero pues también, la economía no era tan buena en esos tiempos, entonces no era fácil poder pagar una carrera universitaria.
OM: ¿Y la educación que si recibí hasta el sexto grado, cuáles son sus pensamientos sobre la educación mexicana?
CG: Yo pienso que en ese tiempo la educación era fantástica porque yo me siento con una capacidad muy muy alta aparte de que fue nada mas hasta sexto año. Era muy muy buena. Nosotros íbamos a la escuela a la mañana y vamos en la tarde. Teníamos dos turnos. Y aparte de eso, los maestros eran muy muy buenos. Mi papa y mi mama también estudiaron hasta el tercer año de primaria pero mi mama se sabia todas las capitales del mundo. Mi papa tenia una ortografía excelente. Los dos tenían muy buena escritura. Entonces, aunque no era muy alto el nivel hasta donde una estudiaba pero la calidad del estudio era muy buenos en esos tiempos. Ahora me imagino que ha de caído porque no lo mismo pero era muy muy buena anteriormente.
OM: Y con todos sus hijos-- ¿sus hijos nacieron aquí en los Estados Unidos?
CG: Si. Tengo dos hijos y los dos nacieron aquí en Estados Unidos.
OM: ¿Y puedes ver muchas diferencias entre los sistemas educativos entre los dos países?
CG: Si. Si definitivamente si. Yo le doy gracias a Dios que mis hijos nacieron en este país. Le doy también gracias a Dios que ellos dos tienen trabajo de acuerdo también a lo que ellos estudiaron, lo que quieren hacer. Y mis sobrinos en México les ha costado mucho mucho trabajo seguir por lo que ellos tienen de estudios universitarios trabaja en sus carreras.
OM: ¿la educación es importante para usted ahora? Estas -
CG: Si, por supuesto, es muy muy importante. Como yo nunca obtuve mi diploma de la prepa o de la "high school", entonces estoy aprendiendo, estoy yendo a la escuela para tener mi diploma de GED. Estoy estudiando esto. Entonces quiero, por el orgullo tener ( ) aparte de eso, para sentirme mejor.
OM: ¿Hay otras migrantes en la clase?
CG: No. No que yo conozca. No. Solamente estoy yo. Ahorita estoy yendo a un corso con el contador de Orange aquí y nada mas estoy yo. No conozco nadie más que esta yendo para el GED.
OM: ¿Y es difícil? ¿Como esta?
CG: Es difícil porque lo estoy haciendo en inglés y mi idioma principal es el español. Entonces es mucho mas competitivo para me hacerlo en inglés pero lo estoy haciendo también porque quiero mejorar mi inglés. Yo nunca fui a la escuela para aprender inglés porque siempre me quede en la casa para atender a mis hijos. Entonces realmente el inglés que yo se y el inglés que aprendí fue atreves de ellos, de estar ayudante de los maestros, y apoyándolos a ellos. Aprendí sin ir a la escuela.
OM: Si, y como- ¿Que influencia ha tenido su formación académica en la educación de sus hijos?
CG: Yo creo que bastante. Nosotros-- Gracias a Dios, que mi esposo y yo en ese aspecto estaba muy muy firmas en que teníamos que apoyar para que ellos sale- sacaron en una universidad. Entonces nosotros sacrificamos muchos puntos en nuestras vidas porque no era fácil pero siempre estuvimos allí apoyándolos en lo que mas podíamos para que ellos sacaran su carrera universitaria. Entonces era muy importante para nosotros que ellos fueron a la universidad.
OM: ¿Y había programas entre los-- como en las escuelas primarias para padres que no pueden hablar inglés? ¿Había mucho apoyo?
CG: No.
OM: Entonces como- ¿qué tipos de cosas hicieron para apoyar a sus niños?
CG: Yo creo que más que nada lo que hicimos fue que revisar que tuvieron toda las tareas, que atendían a toda las sesiones informáticas que hubiera de universidades. Siempre que cumplieran con todos- y que estuvieron bien envueltos en toda la comunidad. Entonces siempre nosotros preguntamos, preguntamos cual es la mejor forma para llegar a la universidad. Mi hijo era muy bueno en deportes pero decían que para hacer un atleta en una universidad es más difícil que ser un buen estudiante y atender a universidad. Entonces nosotros lo apoyaba más- le insistimos que fueron mejor estudiante que ni mejor atleta para que asistieron a universidad. Y gracias a Dios, los dos fueron a la universidad.
OM: ¿Y los dos tienen como una titulación de la universidad o hay más?
CG: Si si. No. Bueno mi hijo ahorita esta siendo su programa para ser un CPA, porque él tiene su "major" en "accounting." Y mi hija es una abogada. Ella si fue a escuela de leyes después de la universidad.
OM: ¿Es importante para que sus hijos reciben una educación de buena calidad? ¿Había una opción para ellos a regresar a México para ir a universidad?
CG: Nunca vimos esa posibilidad porque queríamos que ellos estuvieran bien firmes aquí. Entonces nunca pensamos en regresar a-- que ellos fueron a universidad a México. Y lo que nosotros hicimos tal vez mucho sacrificio económico y desafortunadamente o afortunadamente, no se, los pusimos en escuela privada desde kindergarten hasta la universidad. La universidad era privada también entonces— Hubo bastante esfuerzo por parte mi esposo que trabajaba muchísimo y todo el dinero, la mayoría se da enfocado mas a principalmente la educación de los muchachos, de los hijos.
OM: Y en California, ¿estaban viviendo en una comunidad de migrantes? ¿De latinoamericanos?
CG: Yo creo que estamos viviendo en una comunidad muy mezclada, había de todo. Cuando reci- llegamos allí mas bien era una- ¿que será? — muy muy muy muy mezclado. Había mucha gente mayor, pocos niños jóvenes y eso, pero muy muy mezclado. Si, mucha gente de otros países pero también mucha gente anglosajona.
OM: Y las familias, como migrantes y otras familias de Centroamérica y todo, ¿sus hijos estaban como haciendo la universidad y buscando titulaciones o sus hijos fueron como un poco únicos?
CG: Pues, yo creo que ellos más bien fueron como a un "college" de dos años primero y después para la universidad. Entonces mis hijos fueron de los pocos hispanos que realmente se fueron directamente a una universidad de cuatro años.
OM: ¿Y como se ha destacado la importancia de la educación a sus hijos? ¿Hablaron de México y las diferencias?
CG: Siempre, siempre tuvimos a México como un ejemplo y siempre les inculcamos que nosotros queríamos que ellos será mejor que nosotros. Que si por algún motivo nosotros no pudimos - porque el papa de mi esposo murió cuando mi esposo era muy joven, el no tuvo mucho apoyo de tu papa entonces queríamos nosotros como el papa. Darles todo todo ese apoyo para que ellos sobresalieran y era muy muy importante para nosotros que terminaran su carrera.
OM: Y como tu estas en un clase de GED pero su esposo, cuando el llego a los Estados Unidos, ¿ha tenido una experiencia con la sistema educativa de los Estados Unidos? ¿O el empezó a trabajar?
CG: El empezó a trabajar. El empezó a trabajar. Muy muy joven empezó a trabajar.
OM: ¿Y qué tipo de trabajo? porque él fue con-- ¿estaba con su hermano no?
CG: Si. El empezó a trabajar en la compañía donde trabajaba su hermano que era una compañía de una fábrica de botellas de vidrio. Entonces era un trabajo muy pesado pero bien pagado. Afortunadamente, desafortunadamente. Bien pagado que bueno. Desafortunadamente uno en lugar de ir a la escuela otra vez de regreso se queda en el trabajo. Entonces él era muy inteligente, lo que hizo fue subiendo de grado por su inteligencia que la tenia pero no por sus estudios.
OM: ¿Y usted? ¿Que tipo de--?
CG: Yo nunca, realmente, trabaje. Entonces yo era-- me quede en la casa con los hijos. Porque con su trabajo, era rotativo, entonces era muy difícil. Realmente este – tuve trabajos secundarios por ejemplo, yo me metí a trabajar en la escuela, en la cafetería que era trabajo de cuatro horas. Porque era muy importante para mi quedarme en la casa cuando los hijos regresaron de la casa. Y también estuve trabajando en otra compañía como ayudante de contador un poquito. Entonces-- Pero eran trabajos como, poquito. Realmente no era un trabajo serio ni formal.
OM: ¿Y porque es importante para usted para recibir su GED?
CG: Yo creo que es un- algo que yo quiero para mí misma, algo que yo quiero superarme. Para que mis hijos también se sient— como yo me siento orgullosa de ellos, que ellos se sientan orgullosos de mi. Ahora que puedo, que tengo el tiempo que me quiero superar. Y quiero valerme más por mi misma también.
OM: Y estaba diciendo que había una diferencia entre los hombres y mujeres en su familia con la educación. ¿Había algo como eso en su familia con su hija e hijo?
CG: No. Fue exactamente lo mismo, exactamente. En ese aspecto, nosotros siempre pensamos que ella también tiene que estar súper bien educada como lo está el.
OM: ¿Y cuáles son sus opiniones sobre las diferencias entre la educación en México y la educación en los Estados Unidos?
CG: Es difícil porque, como tengo tantos años de vivir aquí, entonces no estoy muy segura pero en México que han graduado también tienen-- La educación es diferente, es diferente. Yo me imagino que hay ciertos programas que esta mucho mejor. Cuando mi papa estaba muy muy grave en tiempo, entonces yo amaba tanto mi papa que saque mis hijos de la escuela aquí y me los llevo a México. Y estuvieron dos meses en la escuela en el mismo grado que iba aquí. Y desafortunadamente, todos los niños en México iban mucho mas adelantados que los que mis hijos iban. Y eso que mis hijos atendían a buena escuela. Y yo creo que estaban bastante adelantados pero una si este fue muy difícil para ellos porque no iban al mismo nivel de escuela. Era mucho más adelantado en México que aquí. Difícil.
OM: ¿Como cree que el nivel de educación de una persona puede afectar su vida? En México y aquí.
CG: Yo pienso que aquí los hispanos nos tenemos que poner las pilas como luego decimos porque es muy importante que nos superemos. Mucho mas los hispanos porque estamos muy fuertes en este país. Desafortunadamente, todavía los papas venimos con un miedo de mandar a los hijos a la universidad porque no tenemos el dinero, porque se van a ir lejos o porque pensamos que el dinero es mas importante que la educación. ( ) sabes a muchas veces el dinero, ahorita que vas a ser- no necesito más que ni tu educación en el futuro. Entonces yo creo que los hispanos, si tenemos que aprender más ir mas lejos. Estaban mucho mas lideres. Estaban mucho mas gente preparada para todos los trabajos.
OM: ¿Y como puedes cambiar como este tipo de mente que el dinero es mas importante que la educación?
CG: Yo pienso que tenemos que-- los medios de comunicación y tal vez los papas son las comunic-. Yo cada que hablo con algún papa hispano le dijo es muy importante. Esto es la mejor herencia que le puedes dejar a tu hijo. No buen educación. El dinero que venga no va a ser nada. Es mas importante la educación porque esa no la tira, no la vende, no la regala, no la prestan. Es la educación que ellos tienen y puede ayudarles a formar una mejor familia y ser una mejor persona. Una muy buen educación.
OM: ¿Y hay programas y cosas que pueden ayudar ahora?
CG: Yo me imagino que tiene que ver algún programa o algo que debe de haber. Por ejemplo a mi me encanta la televisión español y por supuesto el canal de español. Esta promoviendo mucho que es el momento, que es para los hispanos. Ojala que todos lo tuve por lugar correcto. Que deben de aprovechar para que manden sus hijos a la universidad. Que no tengan miedo de que una no va a poder pagar. Yo creo que hay muchísimas becas. Hay muchísimas maneras y hay- Si se puede, yo pienso que si se puede mandarlos a la universidad. Con sacrificios, pero si se puede.
OM: ¿Puedes hablar un poco sobre el ser un migrante ha afectado su puntos de vista sobre la educación?
CG: Okay. Yo creo que a lo mejor viniendo de México, de papas tan humildes- Vivimos en una economía mas humilde que alta y la ver tenido ganas de estudiar así adelante que la economía no era. Entonces el venida aquí tener un poquito mas de dinero y para mi era muy importante en lugar de comprarles carro, de comprarles ropa con nombres o eso, era mas importante pagar la colegiatura o mandarlos a la escuela. Entonces para mi era muy importante que ellos fueran unos buenos mexicanos, representando a México a los Estados Unidos. Ellos siendo nacidos aquí, para mi siempre soy orgullosa de mis hijos son mexicanos y tienen una carrera. Porque yo creo que venir, ver a toda la gente que muchas veces no quieren mandar a sus hijos a la escuela o que no se quieren superar o que vienen y no quieren hacer algo mejor. Entonces para mi era muy importante enseñar que, viniendo de México, si se puede y tenemos que lograrlo.
OM: ¿Y cómo ha afectado las experiencias educativas de sus hijos? Como tener padres migrantes-
CG: Yo creo que nunca en si también ha sido difícil para ellos porque hay que ellos que han tenido que lidiar con las dos culturas. Como mi esposo era mexicano y yo mexicana, en realidad, yo fui aprendiendo junto con ellos. Cuando yo — Cuando mis hijos iban al "high school", yo no sabía que era un "junior," un "sophomore," un "freshman" entonces. Dice "que es eso." Entonces tengo que aprenderme esa palabra, tengo que aprendérmela. Tengo que decirlo- No decir el primer año en México, siempre se usa el primero, segundo, tercero, cuarto año de prepa. Pero aquí el tiene sus nombres. Entonces poco a poco yo fui aprendiendo. Gracias a Dios, mi hija mayor tenia muchas ganas de superarse. Entonces ella fue un poco mas líder y nosotros la apoyábamos pero ella era una gran gran influencia para mi hijo también.
OM: ¿Y su esposo tenía mucha -- estaba muy involucrado en la educación de sus hijos también?
CG: Si. Definitivamente, si. El siempre les preguntaba. El siempre les decía que no quería que fueron un trabajador como él porque eso trabajo de él era muy muy pesado. Como las botellas se hacen con mucha alumbre entonces a las veces se quemaba. Tenia muchos accidentes. Se quemaba la mano. Se quemaba el cuerpo o algo con el vidrio derretido. Dice "yo no quiero que tu vayas a pasar por que yo estoy pasando. Tienes que ir a la escuela. Tienes que ir a la escuela. Entonces siempre estuvo hablando con ellos, influenciarlos para que terminaran su carrera.
OM: ¿Y sus hijos agradecen la educación?
CG: Si. Yo creo que si. Yo los doy muy contento. Si, a mi me encanta cuando mis hijos siempre dicen "soy un mexicano, aunque yo nací en Estados Unidos pero que son mexicanos con educación." Que mucha gente a veces es difícil y no pueden creer que los mexicanos podemos lograr aparte de venir de tan pocos recursos y que ellos logran algo bueno.
OM: ¿Y sus hijos han visitado a México y pueden ver al sistema?
CG: Si, claro que si. Nosotros siempre-- como tenemos toda nuestra familia en México todavía entonces viniendo de los diez hermanos, siete viven en México todavía. Entonces procuramos regresar cada año por lo menos una vez al año porque para mi, la cultura mexicana es muy importante que yo aprenden también para que yo sepan valorar un país y el otro y quieran y amen a los dos, igual manera. Con sus raíces pero también viven y son americanos por haber nacido en este país.
OM: ¿Y su siete hermanos que viven en México, que tipo de educación han recibido? ¿Ha buscado a una titulación?
CG: Mis hermanos no espe- ninguno mas que uno. Pero de mis sobrinos, yo diría que cincuenta cincuenta. Cincuenta por ciento si, cincuenta por ciento no. Tengo sobrinos que, realmente, no podía ir a universidad. Y yo me imagino que si a caso terminaron la secundaria o la preparatoria pero no han ido a la universidad. No todos han tenido la oportunidad de ir a la universidad.
OM: ¿Y porque no tenía la oportunidad?
CG: Yo creo que razones económicas, lo primero, y también yo creo que ese apoyo de los papas. Muchas veces los papas, todavía, aunque son mis hermanos, no piensan que es tan importante tener una carrera.
OM: Porque ellos no están como— no pueden ver que, como sus hijos tienen titulación y todo y es algo bueno, ¿ellos no pueden ver la diferencia?
CG: Yo creo que el quedarte en una ciudad y el ver todo como un circulito, muchas veces no pueden ver afuera de ese circulo. Entonces ellos piensan que lo mas normal, y lo mas común, el circulo en el que viven y no pueden salir de ese circulo tan fácilmente. Entonces les cuesta mucho trabajo realmente ver mas allá, que ellos pueden lograr más de lo que tienen.
OM: Y la comunidad que viven sus hermanos, ¿es la misma comunidad que tu creciste?
CG: Si. Es la misma comunidad.
OM: ¿Y todavía esta-?
CG: Todavía esta allí, si. Mitad y mitad, yo creo.
OM: ¿Y cuál parte de Guanajuato?
CG: Es León. León, Guanajuato, la ciudad.
OM: ¿Y todavía es muy humilde? ¿Que es la situación en León ahora?
CG: León tiene de todo, un poco. Porque León era— es una ciudad industrial muy grande. La gente se dedica a ser zapatos. Entonces mi papa comenzó siempre por una fabriquita de zapatos entonces, el lo que realmente les enseño a mis hermanos hacer zapatos. Entonces la mayoría están relacionados con hacer zapatos o también curtir la piel para hacer los zapatos. Entonces están relacionados mas que nada en esa industria y es a lo que se dedican ellos. Mas relacionado con lo que el estado- o la ciudad era lo mas fuerte en industria zapatería.
OM: ¿Y las personas que tienen una titulación que fueron a la universidad, que hacen?
CG: Desafortunadamente, no han podido trabajar en su carrera en México. Varios de mis sobrinos están trabajando para el gobierno como secretarios de alguna oficina del gobierno. Otro esta trabajando por el mismo. Es a veces mas fácil poner un pequeño negocio en dentro de ellos mismos. A trabajar en dentro de lo que es su carera es muy difícil, muy difícil. Por ejemplo, otro de mis sobrinos que graduó también trabaja con el papa porque no puede conseguir el trabajo de lo que ellos titularon en México.
OM: ¿Tienes familia aquí en los Estados Unidos ahora?
CG: Aquí en Estados Unidos, tengo dos hermanas, mis dos hermanas. Y tengo sobrinos grandes. De mis sobrinos, solamente uno esta titulado de la universidad. Mi hermana, otra hermana tiene cuatro hijos. De los cuatro, ninguno esta titulado de la universidad.
OM: ¿De una razón económica?
CG: Fuera razón económica y tal vez que no los apoyaron desde un principio. Ella es mi hermana, la mayor, entonces sus hijos, como que tenían ganas ir a la escuela, muy buenos estudiantes, uno fue "valedictorian" en la "high school," y a una si con becas y eso no lo dejaron ni de estudiar. Dijeron que no. Porque no querían que fuera o se fuera a otro estado o a otra ciudad mas grande de donde ellos viven, y no lo dejaron ni eso. Entonces no tiene título.
OM: ¿Y sus sobrinos, que piensan de eso?
CG: Ellos les hubieran encantado tener su carrera. Pero los papas no los apoyaron.
OM: ¿Y hay una opción para regresar a la universidad?
CG: Ahorita en este tiempo, no sé de la verdad. Tal vez, si pudieran, ellos hacerlo si quisieren con mas esfuerzo porque están más grandes. Pero yo me imagino que si pudieran.
OM: ¿Su hermana piensa ahora que debe hacer algo--?
CG: Si. Siempre. A veces dice que pase el tiempo y cuesta más trabajo por regresar otra vez a la escuela.
OM: ¿Y en México, cuesta mucho para ir a la universidad?
CG: Si, cuesta mucho dinero. Cuesta mucho mucho dinero a venir a la universidad. Las universidades buenas son caras y las públicas son muy competitivas, muy muy competitivas porque no hay muchas. Entonces para entrar a la universidad pública es muy difícil.
OM: ¿Y las universidades son más caras en México que aquí? ¿O depende?
CG: Yo me imagino que no son tan caras como aquí. Pero como la economía es- la gente no gana. Lo que gana aquí, les cuesta mas trabajo mandar a los hijos a la universidad que ni aquí. Porque aquí se pueden conseguir mas becas y aquí, por ejemplo- con sacrificio puedes conseguir este los prestamos estudiantiles, o los prestamos que te da el gobierno, o las becas que te dan el gobierno también.
OM: ¿Y el gobierno, que están haciendo para la educación en México?
CG: Ahorita esta tan difícil que yo creo que el gobierno esta mas concentrado en todo lo que es cuestión de las drogas que ni en la educación, desafortunadamente. Pero no se. Tengo muchos años que no vivo en México pero yo me imagino que no esta poniendo mucho mucho de tu parte. El gobierno pasado, creo, el presidente pasado hizo mas esfuerzo. El decía que todos los niños tenían que atender a la escuela.
OM: ¿Porque si no tenias una titulación de universidad, que puedes-? ¿Necesitas graduar de la prepa para hacer algo?
CG: No, si ahora están los trabajos mucho más competitivos también. Mucho más competitivos...por lo menos necesitan la prepa para tener un trabajo más o menos bueno.
OM: ¿Y la educación es una razón para que muchas personas migran?
CG: Yo pienso que es, mas que nada, la economía. Mas que la educación. A lo mejor es de la economía tan mala en México es lo que hace a mucha gente se venga a tratar de trabajar. Mas que- no pueden ir a la escuela entonces me imagino que es más la economía que ni la educación.
OM: ¿Y su familia que todavía viven en México, han pensado de migrar a los Estados Unidos?
CG: Mi papa les puso en la mente a todo el mundo que no venían a Estados Unidos. Entonces mi papa decía Estados Unidos es un país muy difícil. No es fácil. Entonces es mejor que ustedes mantengan su familia aquí, que no salgan de aquí. Entonces dentro de mis hermanos, realmente, ninguno estaba con el deseo de venirse porque, gracias a Dios, por menos que sea pudieron ir a la escuela. Que sea terminaron la secundaria o la preparatoria. Entonces, un poquito, que mi papa tuvo esfuerzo ponerlos a todos en la escuela y eso lo mejor les ayudo a poner su pequeño negocio, en lo que trabajan entonces, tal vez por eso, no tienen el tanto deseo de venir. Pero si hay mucha gente de muchos mas bajos recursos que no tienen nada de educación de escuela y que no pueden trabajar en otra cosa entonces trabaja en el campo. A veces es tan difícil, que es por eso que migran a los Estados Unidos, tratando de venir a trabajar del campo. Porque hay más trabajos en el campo, sin educación, entonces es lo que más se consigue trabajo.
[Interrupted interview question to ask how to say a word in Spanish]
OM: ¿Que tipos de obstáculos han encontrado con la sistema educativa de los Estados Unidos?
CG: En realidad, obstáculos, yo puedo decir que no muchos. No muchos obstáculos. A lo mejor, no, no, no realmente no puedo pensar a algo que me haya- Tal vez porque estuvimos siempre preguntando preguntando preguntando viendo a la mejor manera de mandar a los hijos a la universidad. Entonces yo pienso que no, no, no muchos obstáculos. Era difícil para nosotros la economía era lo mas pesado para nosotros mandarlos a la universidad porque si había mucho sacrificio de parte de mi esposo incluso teníamos que estar con el dinero bien recortaditos para poder hacer todos los pagos para los libros, las cosas que se necesitan aparte que ellos tenían becas y todo para apoyarlos. Pero realmente yo creo que si se puede. No muchos obstáculos. Informándote, informándote, preguntando, preguntando. Puedes hacerlo.
OM: ¿Y para otras familias?
CG: Para otras familias, yo creo que es el miedo. Yo conocí mucha gente y todavía hasta la fecha, incluso mi hermana, la mayor, todavía con sus hijos sigue, "Yo no quiero que se vayan de mi lado. Yo no-." Mucha gente me dice, "¿porque dejas que tus hijos se vayan a otro estado estudiar? ¿Y porque dejas que se vayan de la casa? y que no los dejes ir de la casa. Y que es mejor la familia unida que ni la educación. No los dejes que vayan estudiar. Es peligroso." Entonces, yo pienso que muchas familias tienen un miedo a dejar ir a los hijos a que se superen en otra ciudad o en otro estado. Y eso es un obstáculo numero uno. Y otro, el miedo que tienen, no se puede pagar. La gente es muy negativa. No se puede, no se puede. No hay dinero, no hay dinero, no hay dinero. Y todo lo visto mucho, mucho, mucho mas en los hispanos, que dicen que no hay dinero para ir a universidad. Y eso es muy muy triste porque yo pienso que si se puede.
OM: ¿Y eso es algo, como una cosa de la cultura?
CG: Si. Es muy cultural. Tengo muy buenos amigos en Los Ángeles que no dejan que sus hijos se vayan cerquita de donde ellos viven. Ellos no se quieren mover de donde ellos viven aunque el área ya está más peligrosa o que sea diferente. Pero ellos quieren estar allí todo el tiempo como la raíz y quieren que los hijos estén allí cerquita, cerquita- Como un circulo. Que no quieren que nada los disturbe ni la saga desaparecer o moverse un lado al otro. Aunque no se superen pero allí están. Tiene que estar unidos como un ( ).
OM: ¿Y cree que eso es algo que necesita cambiar? ¿O puede cambiar?
CG: Definitivamente. Yo pienso que debería de cambiar. Yo pienso que la gente tiene que hablar mas con las personas- Yo creo que los medios de comunicación decir que tenemos que, tenemos que, tenemos que educar, educarnos. Y que si se puede. Yo pienso que si se puede. Yo pienso que si se puede.
OM: ¿Y cómo puedo- el gobierno de los Estados Unidos puede hacer algo para-?
CG: Por supuesto que si. Mucho mas compañías dedicadas a la comunidad hispana. Yo pienso que es muy conveniente para el gobierno de los Estados Unidos que se dedique mas a la educación de la gente hispana. Es tanto creciendo en este país. Tan, tan, tan rápidamente porque- tú sabes que el numero de hispanos ahora es mucho mayor. Entonces es muy conveniente que todos esos hispanos que vienen creciendo, todos los muchachos jovencitos que vayan a la escuela, que se eduquen para tener un mejor país. Yo pienso que el gobierno tiene que- las escuelas tienen que ser mejores también. A mi me da tanta pena como un jugador de "basketball" hace tantos millones y un maestro no haga, ni si quiera un dinero que está educando nuestra gente, que esta educando nuestra familia. Y aparte de eso, las escuelas depende de dónde vives, es el dinero que ellos reciben por los impuestos. Entonces es muy triste que los niños hispanos vienen con una educación mucho más baja que la gente anglosajona o la gente que ha vivido mas en este país. Porque, incluso, a mi me paso. Que a mis hijos les acostó mas trabajo en el aspecto que yo no hablaba inglés. Que su primera lengua de ellos fue el español. Entonces si yo les enseñaba en la casa era puro español, cuando ellos si llegan al kindergarten, le dijo a mi hija, "tienes que gatear. Can you crawl?" Y ella no sabía lo que significaba esa palabra. Dice, "que es eso." Y si no la niña tan chiquita decía, ¿y que significa? Entonces todo esos palabras que nosotros no estamos realmente acostumbrados. Entonces para ellos les costo muchísimo mas trabajo, mucho mas aprender lo que las palabras, las costumbres de este país, viniendo de dos papas mexicanos, realmente residentes en este país. Entonces para ellos, si. Mi respeto es que no es fácil porque aparte de que la cultura, las familias, y todos somos tan diferentes. Entonces si, si les ha costado mas trabajo, pero, pero si se puede. Si se puede. Yo digo siempre si se puede.
OM: ¿Y qué tipos de programas necesitamos para ayudar?
CG: Yo pienso que maestros capacitados. Muchos maestros. Las escuelas necesitan tener muchos programas para ayudar a los papas y también ayudar a los alumnos. Entonces me imagino yo que el gobierno poner mas atención en los maestros que están incapacitados para, desde un principio, ayudar al niño desde pre-school, desde kindergarten. Enseñarlos. Ponerlos buenos raíces. Y si tu lo expones al niño en la mentalidad desde están chiquitos, que tienen que seguir, que es lo mejor, que tienen que seguir estudiando, que es lo normal, que es el curso normal de la vida, yo pienso que para ellos también es mas fácil al final decidir ir a la universidad que ni decir me graduó de la high school y me voy al trabajo. Entonces, yo pienso que es- los maestros tienen mucha influencia sobre los niños. Entonces yo digo bueno nuestro poner mas dinero para que los maestros ganen bien y yo me imagino que un maestro debería de ganar muy, pero muy bien porque es la base de un país. La base de la educación de nuestros hijos. La base de que todos estemos aprendiendo.
OM: ¿Y cree que-- cree que pueden ser diferente si usted hablaba inglés?
CG: Por supuesto que si. Había sido mucho mas fácil para mis hijos. Para todo. Porque yo los ha podido ayudar mucho más hacer sus tareas. A las palabras que nos entendían, lo mejor desde un pequeño estuvieron tal vez hablados los dos idiomas que no aprendieron hasta que fueron realmente a la escuela. Fue donde ellos aprendieron. Cuando estaban en kindergarten o ya en primer año. Entonces hubiera sido mucho mas ligera la transición de culturas y de aprendizaje si yo hubiera hablado inglés. Hubiera sido mas fácil para mi también apoyarlos porque si hay momentos en los que uno se le dificulta comprender tantas cosas entonces- Pero por supuesto.
OM: ¿Y sus hijos, que piensan sobre su educación? ¿Y qué van a hacer con sus nietos?
CG: Bueno, yo creo que ellos están en el punto que quieren que sus hijos también, si Dios se los da, que no tienen ahorita, es de seguir adelante que ellos también que tengan una buena educación, que vayan a la escuela, que terminen su universidad. Ellos ya tienen en la mente que quieren que sus hijos terminen su universidad también que sea profesionales como ellos.
OM: ¿Y para los últimos minutos quiere, como, contarme algo mas sobre la educación? ¿Sobre su experiencia con la educación?
CG: Bueno, ¿que te puedo contar? Realmente yo estoy muy muy orgullosa que viniendo de una familia tan grande, yo soy la numero ocho, no teniendo realmente educación escolar. La educación era la de que me dieron mis papas. Mi esposo lo mismo. Nos casamos muy jóvenes. Si realmente para mi es un orgullo que mis hijos hayan continuado a la escuela. Para mi es un orgullo que ellos ser unos mexicanos bien formados en este país porque podemos guiarlos por esa manera, que pudimos guiarlos. Que ellos realmente- mi hijo es contador, tiene buen trabajo en su compañía. Lo aprecian mucho. Mi hija termino sus cuatro años con un "degree" de ciencias políticas y español. Y aparte de eso se fue a escuela de leyes entonces ella es abogada. Y para mi es un orgullo que tengan la educación suficiente para seguir el camino que ellos pueden tener adelante. Entonces que triunfen en la vida que ellos sean el ejemplo de otras personas migrantes realmente porque no fue fácil, no fue- no es como contarlo que decir [sigh]. Realmente es un orgullo tenerlos, ni fue como hacer una tortilla bien rapidita. No no no. Fue un proceso bastante difícil. Fue difícil para ellos también. En las dos culturas. Entonces mucho tiempo estuvimos mi esposo y yo, como dudándonos. "¿Vamos a México? ¿Nos quedamos? Gracias a Dios, que teníamos la oportunidad de ir y ven porque como el tenia residencia, gracias al hermano. Pero aun así- fue mucho esfuerzo. Mucho mucho esfuerzo. Y pienso por parte de mis hijos también. Y todavía- yo siempre he dicho, "eres un mexicano y tienes que ser orgulloso. Eres un americano y tienes que poner el ejemplo." Entonces tu siempre- a donde quiera que vayas, tienes que poner el ejemplo porque tienes dos nacionalidades y eres un ejemplo a seguir. Tienen que seguir adelante. Hablen con sus amigos. Entonces si, era lo único que te digo que no fue fácil pero si se puede.
OM: Muy bien, muchas gracias.
CG: Gracias a ti, Olivia.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-0464 -- García, Carmen.
Description
An account of the resource
Carmen Garcia is a middle-aged migrant and mother of two from Leon, Guanajuanto, Mexico. Garcia lived in California for thirty years before moving to Durham, North Carolina after the death of her husband. She lives with her daughter, who is married and works for the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Garcia received a sixth grade education in Mexico but is currently seeking her GED. In this interview, Garcia discusses the importance of education and the need to keep her American-born children involved and aware of issues and the culture of the Latino community.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
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10 April 2011
Format
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R0464_Audio.mp3
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/6288">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/c94bde1954ae876483f511ad6b45affb.mp3
c95517e457d2a8ea51b56c83af3c7061
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/4fc2acce7d864e90721556cfd3354d74.pdf
8bab615fb3ae80ce4e814efdc3ce1446
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0456
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
19 March 2011
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Blau, Judith.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Professors; Social Justice Activists; Directors, NGOs and institutes
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
United States
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Chapel Hill -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Stephenson, Elise.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Dr. Judith Blau is a professor of sociology at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and chair of the Social and Economic Justice Undergraduate Minor. Blau is the founder and director of the Human Rights Center of Chapel Hill & Carrboro (HRC). Major topics of the interview center around the origins of the Human Rights Center of Chapel Hill & Carrboro, Blau's early work in sociology and her shift to public sociology and Human Rights, specific obstacles to Latino immigrant outreach and current successful projects, and hopes for the future of sociology, Human Rights, and the HRC. Blau began projects in general sociology in NYC before moving to North Carolina to teach at UNC-Chapel Hill. Since the move, her focus has shifted to public sociology, or Human Rights, and her students complete service requirements through the projects of the HRC. This center is particularly unique in that it was established within the largely-immigrant community of Abbey Court in order to evade private property restrictions against freedom of speech. The most successful outreach programs include the after school program, adult ESL classes, and computer classes.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Judith Blau by Elise Stephenson, 19 March 2011, R-0456, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/6272
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Citizenship and immigration; Activism; Community and social services and programs; Higher education; Adult education
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Elise Stephenson: [Start of recording]. Hi, this is Elise Stephenson and today I am interviewing Judith Blau, the
founder of the Human Rights Center here in Carrboro in Abbey Court neighborhood in Carrboro, NC. It is March 19,
2011. Thanks so much for being here with me today Judith. Maybe you can tell us a little bit about the vision of the
Human Rights Center here in Carrboro, what you've done to start it up, and what it means to you?
Judith Blau: Thank you. You have a set of really interesting questions. Let me begin by saying that I had been--I was
chair of Social and Economic Justice undergraduate minor, and I taught it as a justice course. And then I found it much
more gratifying to teach as a Human Rights course from which there is a global understanding of what we mean by
that. And, so then I began teaching that as a theory course—and that just didn't work. I needed some practicum for the
students. So I kind of thought—I was thinking, where would I go? Rafael Diego, who is the associate director of the
center, and I were distributing flyers for El Centro, which is now defunct, here in Abbey Court. And we were followed
by a security agent who kept yelling obscenities at us, and finally
2
called the police and the Sheriffs department. You know, we got the full treatment! And I was furious. So I called the
mayor, and the mayor told me to call the chief of police. I called the chief of the police. I met with her the next day,
and she said "You know its private property. You have no free speech rights on private property." And I said, "If I am
an owner in Abbey Court, then we will have free speech rights, correct? Haha." So she said "Of course." But also, this
neighborhood—the residents exhibit a huge range of problems. They are cheated by employers, they don't have access
to health care, they often are discriminated against in schools, they have difficulty getting a license to drive a car—so
they're treated less than human in our country. And I wanted our undergraduates to understand that. When you meet
people here in Abbey Court, they are just wonderful! They are kind, they are cordial, they are eager to please, and it's
been a very successful program I think. Not only for the Abbey Court residents who we don't treat as charity cases. As
Alfonso who you just met says "We treat.. .it's solidarity actions." And that kind of attitude, I think, is important.
ES: And you, you started--. Did you start the service learning class around the time that you decided to start the center
inside here in Abbey Court, like you said, in order to have a voice?
JB: Before when I taught the course as a theory course, I had a potpourri of service-learning opportunities for the
students. So they could choose, you know, a women's center. They could choose a homeless shelter. Wherever they
wanted to go. But it wasn't coherent. Now we've reached the point where we have 30 opportunities here at the Human
Rights Center. So that's enough—more than enough—opportunities for my students in the two classes.
3
ES: Tell me about some of the different—you said there were 30—about some of the different opportunities they have
to volunteer here. What are some of the programs that you are doing?
JB: There are programs that take place here like LINC, Technology Without Borders, keeping up with computers,
soccer, the food distribution on Saturday (see references). But they also have an opportunity to be liaisons with
organizations with which we are also liaisons, like El Centro Hispano. We are starting a huge program with Rogers
Road. I have a meeting this afternoon with them that will include three public artists, the coach of street soccer,
Reverend Campbell, and the director of the community center. So, what does this mean? This means that we are
transcending cultures. That the Latino kids and the African American kids have an opportunity to get together and
learn about one another's culture. And it's an Arts & Humanities grant. The humanities really enabled vulnerable
populations to save their narratives, their songs, their languages. So this will be—if it's funded—it will be a humanities
project. And that takes us out of the realm of "social-worky" types of projects, which is where I don't want to go.
Social work does that better than we do.
ES: Yeah. That's fantastic. So how did you get here, to Carrboro, and North Carolina? Are you from North Carolina?
Were you born here?
JB: No, no. I spent 16 years in New York City, in Manhattan, prior to coming here.
ES: Okay.
4
JB: I came here because the dept. of Sociology was outstanding. I had been commuting between Albany and New
York City, and the family had gotten fed up with that.
ES: And when you were in NYC, did you do social justice work there as well? Did you/do you have any comparisons
between New York and North Carolina in that way? Between the work you've done here versus being in a big city?
JB: What an interesting question! OK, I started out in sociology of science and did a study of theoretical high energy
physicists. And then I did a few smaller projects. And then did a major study of architects and aesthetic philosophies
within NYC. When New York City went bankrupt, I returned to the city and interviewed as many of them [the
architects] as remained. The term modernism—which you take for granted as a young person—was coined by
Christopher Jangst, an architectural critic. So that whole explosion of relativity, and the attack on hierarchies, and the
attack on bureaucracies, all began in architecture. And NYC was just a prime location for design architects.
But so then, I did studies in prisons, in children's psychiatric hospitals, of spatial diffusion processes... minor league
baseball teams... I mean, I've been all over the map! But I would ask a question, and then do the research. When I had
satisfied myself, I left the field. My husband said, "it's no way to be able to take vacations in the summer because you
are always working aren't you?" But increasingly I began to question the value and neutrality that American sociology
portends to advance: that we are scientists. We look through a microscope at human behavior. We have no
compassion. We have no values. We spurn those activists. And there is a developing movement within sociology, not
here but elsewhere, of activists—or public sociology. And Human Rights can be part
5
of that. The researchers, or the teacher, or the administrator is not neutral when he or she says "Everyone has the right
to food." Now, the argument in mainstream sociology would be to somewhat discredit that point of view. Things are
changing fairly quickly.
ES: Wow. It's very interesting just coming to North Carolina and the changes that has had on the direction of what you
are doing in sociology. I'm wondering how much being in Chapel Hill and Carrboro has affected that shift towards a
more, like you said, public sociology. Do you believe that you started to focus on that after coming here? And after
your work at UNC? Or do you believe that activist mentality was something that you had all along, had been
developing, but just hadn't found an outlet for?
JB: That's hard to say... In 2002,1 was asked to be the president of the US Chapter of Sociologists Without Borders,
which was a Spanish—it was founded in Spain. And Sociologists Without Borders is, according to its mission
statement, a celebration of Human Rights. So, I think that was the bridge.
So that was 2002, and then in 2003, the US Chapter of Sociologists Without Borders got on the ballot of the American
Sociological Association anti-war petition that was forming, about going to war in Iraq. An earlier one about Vietnam
had not passed, so people said "don't get your hopes up." And then it passed! Sociology is changing. So, I'm still
president of Sociology Without Borders. I'm not active in the immigration section of the American Sociological
Association, but I am active in the Human Rights section, which I along with several other people helped to found. It's
amazing how little in general Americans know about Human Rights. "Oh yes, that's genocide that happens in Sudan,"
right? [Laugh]. And to think of the possibility that the denial of food rights, of housing rights, of medical care, are
violations of Human Rights, is not quite part of the American
6
psyche, perceptions, language yet. I think things are changing. The US State Department last week made a statement in
response to the review of the Universal Periodic Review that was something like the following: "Everyone has the right
to decent housing." WOW... so things are changing! We are becoming part of the civilized world.
ES: We talked a lot about Human Rights, and your focus on Human Rights, and also just the connection—how you
want to get Abbey Court involved with Rogers Road and the mixing of cultures in that way. But predominantly, your
work here is with Latino immigrants—because of location, and because of Abbey Court and the situation here. I'm
curious about what you find unique about advocating for immigrant rights—immigrants in general, Latino immigrants,
whatever you find most interesting to discuss.
JB: Well there are the basic Human Rights, but then there are the particularly excruciating violations of Human Rights.
Wage theft is so common among the workers. To have to stand outside in the freezing cold, without toilets, in just
inhumane. So we are working with El Centro Hispano—and now there is a mayor's taskforce on day laborers— to do
something. We are also working with the Law School and the Southern Coalition because we think that the ordinance
—and the lawyers also think the ordinance—that is right outside of Abbey Court that says you must leave at 11 o'clock
is unconstitutional. So we take resolutions to Chapel Hill and Carrboro when we can. When we need lawyers, we call
them up. And then we have the programs with the students.
ES: How much of this would you not be able to do if you weren't located right here inside the community? You were
saying earlier that that was why you started it here. You didn't have free speech because it was a private community.
You're unique because you are inside the community. I think that's one of the things that makes the Chapel Hill
7
and Carrboro Human Rights Center so unique compared to other Human Rights centers that are trying to fight for the
same rights that you are. What advantages, and what difference, has it made by being right here, in the community,
with the people that you are here to help.
JB: I think the immigrant residents feel that we are trustworthy. They can always come to us and know that we will
fight for their rights. And it's this proximity and the kind of casual relationship that we have with them that makes this
possible. In the beginning, it wouldn't have been possible to bring all of these student groups in, but now it's great. We
have the most wonderful soccer coach. Since he has been here, he has formed a 501c3 called Street Soccer. And when
the kids are playing soccer, all of the adults are hanging out on their balconies watching. We have festivals twice a
year—one for a Burmese holiday and one for a Mexican holiday. Children asked once "Are we going to have a horse
again at Las Posadas?" So it's that we are neighbors. We happen to have more resources, but we are using those
resources to make sure that your rights are protected.
ES: How have you seen that trust develop over time? When did you first bring the HRC into the community, and have
you seen a marked improvement in trust over time? That this has started to take hold in the community and strengthen
with time?
JB: Yes. There are little corners. One was when Beto, whom you've met, asked if he could give computer classes in
E4.
ES: And how did he know computer skills? Where did he get those?
JB: I don't know where he got computer skills! The... do you know Technology Without Borders (see references)? Ok,
so Beto and I were alone in E4 one day and
8
Patrick Kenan walked in from TWB, and Beto said, "Is it all right that I have installed Buntu operating system on two
computers?" And the look on Patrick's face what just amazing! He said, "Oh, of course not. There are many
advantages to Buntu. It takes less space on the hard-drive and you can't get viruses--." I've asked my students in class
if they know what that operating system is, and maybe one or two answer.
So Beto uses his networks to help our programs. Alfonso who lives upstairs is the assistant teacher for the afterschool
program (see references). He's a wonderful, wonderful young person who the children just love. [Pause].
So it's a slow process. There are many anxieties about, you know, will the city turn on them? Will homeland security
start to enforce laws here in the county? I think there is some caution still but our circle of friends in expanding.
Ricardo, who lives right there— we are always happy to see one another. He works in Durham. He has a steady job.
But then he has an extended family, and all members of that extended family seem to like us. Nancy Hilburn, the
teacher, probably has the most ongoing relationships with kids and parents.
ES: The infrastructure seems so neat. You know, the different people and their roles. It seems like there is always
someone here. Maybe you can tell me about what you're thinking in terms of how you structure what you are doing.
Who has what responsibilities, and how that has helped you reach your mission? How do you delegate? How do you
spread out the responsibilities of what you are doing?
JB: So much of what we do is not delegated, but rather initiated by student groups. [Short interruption by local
volunteer].
9
ES: We were talking about the structure and you said it's really not so much of a delegating thing. It's much more of
a—individuals and students that initiate on their own and kind of decide what to take on and just go for it. Tell me a
little bit more about that.
JB: Well LINC is—don't say this to other people—but LINC is my all time favorite group (see references). It's not like
an ESL class. It's like a family. Cultural respect and learning. Other groups get started more slowly so they're not
running programs until about mid-semester and I would like for that to change if I can.
ES: I guess one of the obstacles that you face by using student groups and in your class because it is very semester
based, every semester you are starting over with brand new people. You have to train new people as you were saying
and it doesn't get started until halfway through the semester. So there isn't that continued development of trust between
two people, you know where it is the same person over and over again. And so in that way it puts a lot more pressure
on you and the people in the center who are here consistently to really hold the burden of that trust—to hold most of
the trust because it comes through you. They learn to trust these people because they trust you, and because time after
time they come. But it must be difficult to, like you were saying, keep starting over. How do reconcile that? I guess we
talked about the negative aspects, but what do you see as the positives of bringing in new people all of the time?
JB: [Pause]
ES: Or what you envision as a professor—what you are trying to do in your class?
JB: Well, from a pedagogical perspective, it's a win-win [laughter]. From the perspective of residents who are taking
classes, there is a real serious lack of consistency over time, which varies from program to program. [Long pause].
Yeah, I've thought
10
about this, and we could use someone who speaks Spanish who is always available to mediate, to ask questions,
answer questions.
ES: Is everything volunteer-based? Are there paid position within the center? How do--. Do people volunteer their
time? I know the students volunteer their time, but for you and Rafael and Nancy and the people who are here, and it's
very much a job for them—is that all volunteer-based?
JB: I'm usually successful at getting grants for Nancy through the Public Schools, the PTA, or the ( ). I learned
yesterday that I didn't get a grant. That was too bad. [Laughter]. I personally pay Alfonso, and I pay Beto, and I pay
the utilities, so—
ES: Out of your own pocket?
JB: —Yeah. I think that funding agencies don't know what Human Rights are, and I haven't been able to—even which
I explain it in clear terms—foundation officers might not agree with it. "Everyone has a right to food? No, they have
to work for it!" But the world will change.
ES: That's a very positive outlook! You were talking a little bit earlier—you were saying that once Beto started the
computer classes, that this helped because he had his own networks that he brought in. Networking is an interesting
component of these immigrant communities. How do you feel that networking works within this neighborhood? Do
you feel that there are strong networks, that there is a strong sense of community or strong ties between families—
interfamilial ties—that help to spread the word?
JB: They are very fragmented. Yeah, they are very fragmented. Knowing, for example, the family of Ricardo. That's a
whole extended family. There is a son that is in
11
( ), two children who are in the afterschool program (see reference, Tutoring Program)~so they are always really
happy to see me when I arrive. If we would be--. I have several roles. One is to teach, and the other is to write books
and articles. And if I were to devote the time that it would take to bring in grant money here, I wouldn't be, you know I
wouldn't be doing what I love to do! [Laughter]. So I would rather get a big check from IRS for my deduct—I've
deducted so much from my income tax! [Laughter]. And we remodeled E4, and I paid for the cabinets and I paid for
salaries, and ALL of the workers left for Mexico after that. They were all very good workers. They were tired of
toughing it out.
ES: Did they talk to you about their reasons for leaving?
JB: Family. They more likely talked to Rafael. Rafael did his Master's Thesis on the corner, as a ( ) study of day
laborers. So there's a lot of trust, people have a lot of
trust in him.
ES: Have you found that not speaking Spanish has been difficult in developing relationships with the people here?
[Laughter.] How do you deal with that?
JB: Well people here know more English than they let on. Because most of the students do speak Spanish, and Alfonso
and the school program and Beto, we have more Spanish speaking than we have instances of English speaking. So they
call me "Mami" [Laughter]. The men call me "Mami." Yes it would be better if I knew Spanish. Am I willing to go to
Mexico for a month for an intensive course? No.
ES: I guess back to the topic of networking. You said that it's very fragmented. What do you mean by that? Could you
elaborate on what you mean by fragmented and why it might be so fragmented?
12
JB: There never, never are large gatherings. Only when we have our festivals. There are households who will come out
with barbecues, but that's it.
ES: Have you asked anyone about that or spoken to anyone about what that might be? Why there aren't—
JB: That's a good question.
ES: —development of relationships between communities? Because they are in such a similar and tough situation.
Developing human relationships is such a human instinct, you know, to get through tough situations. Why do you think
that hasn't developed here?
JB: Good question. Rafael thinks it's because the cultural differences for people who come from different provinces—
states—in Mexico, are really quite extraordinary. He says, "Ok, this is what people who come from Mexico City are
like and this is what people from Chiapas are like." And then we also have Ecuadorians, Salvadorians.
ES: [Laugh]. Right, so maybe they are more different than they seem to us, though it is difficult to see that. I have
done a lot of volunteering here through LINC (see references), tutoring English, and one of the students I work with
told me that the reason he didn't try to develop relationships here was because he was afraid if he developed
relationships here, he would forget his family. Whether he stayed or he went home he was still separated. He didn't
want to split his life into two places. It was almost easier to not make any ties here in order to make it easier when he
returned to Mexico. I don't know if that's unique to him or if that's a story that is consistent with many of the people
here. But it does reflect some on how much their minds are consumed with their home, and how much the place that
they are from is a big part of who they are and what they
13
experience when they're here. I wonder if—. In your experience, do you find that most of the people that come here to
Abbey Court, or who are living here briefly or over time, have intentions of returning back to Mexico?
JB: Yes. There's no doubt that they do, but the economy of Mexico is probably worse than the economy of the United
States.
ES: Many of the laws that we have here in the US seem to miss that fact—of them wanting to come here just to work
to return home—and it makes it so much more difficult for them to do that because it is so difficult for them to get
across the border. Because there are so few visas and the path for an undocumented immigrant is so risky that many
people stay here longer than they would like to, for fear of being able to come back over if they returned [to Mexico].
What are your thoughts on that, and your experience, the people who live here and how they make a life here even
when it isn't where they want to be.
JB: Our neighbors are so family oriented. There is a great attachment to the children, and to the circle of relatives that
live nearby. And that makes a huge difference. I mean, I've found casually that babies who are outside with their
mothers, and then begin to grow up, and then get older and venture a little bit away from Mama [laugh] and then get
enough courage to wave to me. So it's a very tight bonding. In my experience in New York, our childhood practices
foster more individuality, more "Go along kid. You figure it out."
ES: How do you feel about community involvement in the Human Rights Center activities? Have you had difficulty
bringing people in for the different services you provide? What obstacles have you faced?
14
JB: Yeah, its an--. For a long time Rafael and I devoted a significant amount of time to advertising programs, but then
you always have to argue with management about the leaflets and so forth. We do have a text messaging service that
goes out to people saying that—. I know a text message went out about the tax attorneys. Um, it's hard. [Pause]. To
invite people for an assembly to discuss what it is that they would like, I think few people would turn up.
Now the afterschool program (see references, Tutoring Program) is a huge success—there are 50 children that come!
Nancy has to turn away kids. "You don't live in Abbey Court, so you're going to have to leave." But it's extremely
popular. It's consistent. It's ( ) with respect to time and days. It follows the public school calendar.
ES: So what would you say makes her—. What qualities—like you were saying consistency—make for the most
successful outreach programs? Of the different programs, the 30 programs, the different things that go through, what
have you found to be the most helpful? To receive the most positive response from the community?
JB: Well besides the afterschool, it would be LINC and Technology Without Borders (see references). People want to
use the computers right? [Laughter]. They want them fixed! We're not very fast at that, but it usually needs to go
through some people.
ES: You said that sociology is changing. What can we do as citizens, as American citizens, to help make this Human
Rights change? What is it that students, that you, that members of the community—what should we be doing to help
promote this change towards a Human Rights mentality?
JB: Oh, that's a nice question. Always asking good questions, and I think that this generation of students, this last few
chords, strongly believes that people are equal. They
15
should be treated that way. And once a certain percentage of the population believes that, then it changes.
ES: Do you believe that the current generations that are developing--. I mean I guess as a professor at UNC, in what
you've witnessed, do you see that change in the younger generations? More of an understanding of Human Rights?
JB: Oh definitely. I think we have to assume that these are not carefully crafted ideas, but rather kind of implicit and
tacit assumptions that you make. [Pause] I'll give you an example of how subtle this can be. If we are successful with
this grant—this humanities grant—the public artist would give kids and residents of Rogers Road and here camcorders
to make videos. Then they would project those videos on the buildings. Now that's really subversive isn't it. [Laugh].
But it underscores the dignity of people. You may be undocumented, but you have dignity. You don't care, and look
up there! You can see it on the wall of the building. You are beautiful! So they are going to do it here. They have a
grant from Chapel Hill to do it here. I'm trying to get a grant to do it here and at Rogers Road. And we just got a van.
So we can tool from here over to Rogers Road.
ES: Your excitement about everything is definitely contagious. I think it can be seen through the immense volunteer
effort that comes to Abbey Court. I don't know many people in Chapel Hill that don't know about it.
JB: Oh really!
ES: It's just fantastic. Is there anything that you want to say before we—.
JB: Well you're an excellent interviewer!
ES: First time! So, not really. Anything about Abbey Court, about immigration, about Human Rights, about what we
could be doing?
16
JB: Yeah, capitalism maybe? [Laughter] It's a big topic! Well there are lots of pieces of buildings falling off here, and
things are in shambles. And the management doesn't fix them. They aren't advertising apartments. We got E4 through
Craig's List. So I suspect that the objective of Lucas is to let the apartment complex fall down and then sell it for a
profit. And I've told everybody that I'll be in front of the bulldozer. [Laughter] They just can't do this to poor people.
ES: Where will people go if this happens?
JB: Well let's say that they pay them half a million dollars to relocate. I don't think they will.
ES: Well thank you so much for everything. Thank you so much.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Profesores; Activistas por la justicia social; Directores de ONG e institutos
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
La doctora Judith Blau es profesora de Sociología en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill y directora de la subconcentración de justicia social y económica a nivel de pregrado. Blau es la fundadora y directora del Centro de Derechos Humanos en Chapel Hill y Carrboro. Los temas de la entrevista se centran principalmente en los orígenes del Centro de Derechos Humanos en Chapel Hill y Carrboro, el trabajo de la doctora Blau en sus inicios en la carrera en sociología y su cambio a la sociología pública y los derechos humanos, los obstáculos particulares del trabajo directo con los migrantes Latinos y sus proyectos actuales exitosos y sus deseos para el futuro de la sociología, los derechos humanos y el Centro de Derechos Humanos. Blau comenzó sus proyectos en sociología en la ciudad de Nueva York, antes de mudarse a Carolina del Norte para enseñar en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill. Desde que se mudó, su enfoque ha cambiado a la sociología pública y los derechos humanos, y sus estudiantes completan el requisito de proveer servicio a la comunidad a través de los proyectos del Centro de Derechos Humanos. Este centro es particularmente único en el sentido de que fue establecido dentro de la comunidad de Abbey Court, que es mayoriamente inmigrante, con la intención de evadir las restricciones dentro de la propiedad privada del derecho a la libertad de expresión. Los programas de participación comunitaria más exitosos incluyen programas extra curriculares vespertinos para niños y jóvenes, clases de inglés para adultos cuyo inglés es su segunda lengua y clases de computación.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Judith Blau por Elise Stephenson, 19 Marzo 2011, R-0456, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Ciudadanía e inmigración; Activismo; Programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios; Educación superior; Educación para adultos
Es: Transcripción
Elise Stephenson: [Start of recording]. Hi, this is Elise Stephenson and today I am interviewing Judith Blau, the
founder of the Human Rights Center here in Carrboro in Abbey Court neighborhood in Carrboro, NC. It is March 19,
2011. Thanks so much for being here with me today Judith. Maybe you can tell us a little bit about the vision of the
Human Rights Center here in Carrboro, what you've done to start it up, and what it means to you?
Judith Blau: Thank you. You have a set of really interesting questions. Let me begin by saying that I had been--I was
chair of Social and Economic Justice undergraduate minor, and I taught it as a justice course. And then I found it much
more gratifying to teach as a Human Rights course from which there is a global understanding of what we mean by
that. And, so then I began teaching that as a theory course—and that just didn't work. I needed some practicum for the
students. So I kind of thought—I was thinking, where would I go? Rafael Diego, who is the associate director of the
center, and I were distributing flyers for El Centro, which is now defunct, here in Abbey Court. And we were followed
by a security agent who kept yelling obscenities at us, and finally
2
called the police and the Sheriffs department. You know, we got the full treatment! And I was furious. So I called the
mayor, and the mayor told me to call the chief of police. I called the chief of the police. I met with her the next day,
and she said "You know its private property. You have no free speech rights on private property." And I said, "If I am
an owner in Abbey Court, then we will have free speech rights, correct? Haha." So she said "Of course." But also, this
neighborhood—the residents exhibit a huge range of problems. They are cheated by employers, they don't have access
to health care, they often are discriminated against in schools, they have difficulty getting a license to drive a car—so
they're treated less than human in our country. And I wanted our undergraduates to understand that. When you meet
people here in Abbey Court, they are just wonderful! They are kind, they are cordial, they are eager to please, and it's
been a very successful program I think. Not only for the Abbey Court residents who we don't treat as charity cases. As
Alfonso who you just met says "We treat.. .it's solidarity actions." And that kind of attitude, I think, is important.
ES: And you, you started--. Did you start the service learning class around the time that you decided to start the center
inside here in Abbey Court, like you said, in order to have a voice?
JB: Before when I taught the course as a theory course, I had a potpourri of service-learning opportunities for the
students. So they could choose, you know, a women's center. They could choose a homeless shelter. Wherever they
wanted to go. But it wasn't coherent. Now we've reached the point where we have 30 opportunities here at the Human
Rights Center. So that's enough—more than enough—opportunities for my students in the two classes.
3
ES: Tell me about some of the different—you said there were 30—about some of the different opportunities they have
to volunteer here. What are some of the programs that you are doing?
JB: There are programs that take place here like LINC, Technology Without Borders, keeping up with computers,
soccer, the food distribution on Saturday (see references). But they also have an opportunity to be liaisons with
organizations with which we are also liaisons, like El Centro Hispano. We are starting a huge program with Rogers
Road. I have a meeting this afternoon with them that will include three public artists, the coach of street soccer,
Reverend Campbell, and the director of the community center. So, what does this mean? This means that we are
transcending cultures. That the Latino kids and the African American kids have an opportunity to get together and
learn about one another's culture. And it's an Arts & Humanities grant. The humanities really enabled vulnerable
populations to save their narratives, their songs, their languages. So this will be—if it's funded—it will be a humanities
project. And that takes us out of the realm of "social-worky" types of projects, which is where I don't want to go.
Social work does that better than we do.
ES: Yeah. That's fantastic. So how did you get here, to Carrboro, and North Carolina? Are you from North Carolina?
Were you born here?
JB: No, no. I spent 16 years in New York City, in Manhattan, prior to coming here.
ES: Okay.
4
JB: I came here because the dept. of Sociology was outstanding. I had been commuting between Albany and New
York City, and the family had gotten fed up with that.
ES: And when you were in NYC, did you do social justice work there as well? Did you/do you have any comparisons
between New York and North Carolina in that way? Between the work you've done here versus being in a big city?
JB: What an interesting question! OK, I started out in sociology of science and did a study of theoretical high energy
physicists. And then I did a few smaller projects. And then did a major study of architects and aesthetic philosophies
within NYC. When New York City went bankrupt, I returned to the city and interviewed as many of them [the
architects] as remained. The term modernism—which you take for granted as a young person—was coined by
Christopher Jangst, an architectural critic. So that whole explosion of relativity, and the attack on hierarchies, and the
attack on bureaucracies, all began in architecture. And NYC was just a prime location for design architects.
But so then, I did studies in prisons, in children's psychiatric hospitals, of spatial diffusion processes... minor league
baseball teams... I mean, I've been all over the map! But I would ask a question, and then do the research. When I had
satisfied myself, I left the field. My husband said, "it's no way to be able to take vacations in the summer because you
are always working aren't you?" But increasingly I began to question the value and neutrality that American sociology
portends to advance: that we are scientists. We look through a microscope at human behavior. We have no
compassion. We have no values. We spurn those activists. And there is a developing movement within sociology, not
here but elsewhere, of activists—or public sociology. And Human Rights can be part
5
of that. The researchers, or the teacher, or the administrator is not neutral when he or she says "Everyone has the right
to food." Now, the argument in mainstream sociology would be to somewhat discredit that point of view. Things are
changing fairly quickly.
ES: Wow. It's very interesting just coming to North Carolina and the changes that has had on the direction of what you
are doing in sociology. I'm wondering how much being in Chapel Hill and Carrboro has affected that shift towards a
more, like you said, public sociology. Do you believe that you started to focus on that after coming here? And after
your work at UNC? Or do you believe that activist mentality was something that you had all along, had been
developing, but just hadn't found an outlet for?
JB: That's hard to say... In 2002,1 was asked to be the president of the US Chapter of Sociologists Without Borders,
which was a Spanish—it was founded in Spain. And Sociologists Without Borders is, according to its mission
statement, a celebration of Human Rights. So, I think that was the bridge.
So that was 2002, and then in 2003, the US Chapter of Sociologists Without Borders got on the ballot of the American
Sociological Association anti-war petition that was forming, about going to war in Iraq. An earlier one about Vietnam
had not passed, so people said "don't get your hopes up." And then it passed! Sociology is changing. So, I'm still
president of Sociology Without Borders. I'm not active in the immigration section of the American Sociological
Association, but I am active in the Human Rights section, which I along with several other people helped to found. It's
amazing how little in general Americans know about Human Rights. "Oh yes, that's genocide that happens in Sudan,"
right? [Laugh]. And to think of the possibility that the denial of food rights, of housing rights, of medical care, are
violations of Human Rights, is not quite part of the American
6
psyche, perceptions, language yet. I think things are changing. The US State Department last week made a statement in
response to the review of the Universal Periodic Review that was something like the following: "Everyone has the right
to decent housing." WOW... so things are changing! We are becoming part of the civilized world.
ES: We talked a lot about Human Rights, and your focus on Human Rights, and also just the connection—how you
want to get Abbey Court involved with Rogers Road and the mixing of cultures in that way. But predominantly, your
work here is with Latino immigrants—because of location, and because of Abbey Court and the situation here. I'm
curious about what you find unique about advocating for immigrant rights—immigrants in general, Latino immigrants,
whatever you find most interesting to discuss.
JB: Well there are the basic Human Rights, but then there are the particularly excruciating violations of Human Rights.
Wage theft is so common among the workers. To have to stand outside in the freezing cold, without toilets, in just
inhumane. So we are working with El Centro Hispano—and now there is a mayor's taskforce on day laborers— to do
something. We are also working with the Law School and the Southern Coalition because we think that the ordinance
—and the lawyers also think the ordinance—that is right outside of Abbey Court that says you must leave at 11 o'clock
is unconstitutional. So we take resolutions to Chapel Hill and Carrboro when we can. When we need lawyers, we call
them up. And then we have the programs with the students.
ES: How much of this would you not be able to do if you weren't located right here inside the community? You were
saying earlier that that was why you started it here. You didn't have free speech because it was a private community.
You're unique because you are inside the community. I think that's one of the things that makes the Chapel Hill
7
and Carrboro Human Rights Center so unique compared to other Human Rights centers that are trying to fight for the
same rights that you are. What advantages, and what difference, has it made by being right here, in the community,
with the people that you are here to help.
JB: I think the immigrant residents feel that we are trustworthy. They can always come to us and know that we will
fight for their rights. And it's this proximity and the kind of casual relationship that we have with them that makes this
possible. In the beginning, it wouldn't have been possible to bring all of these student groups in, but now it's great. We
have the most wonderful soccer coach. Since he has been here, he has formed a 501c3 called Street Soccer. And when
the kids are playing soccer, all of the adults are hanging out on their balconies watching. We have festivals twice a
year—one for a Burmese holiday and one for a Mexican holiday. Children asked once "Are we going to have a horse
again at Las Posadas?" So it's that we are neighbors. We happen to have more resources, but we are using those
resources to make sure that your rights are protected.
ES: How have you seen that trust develop over time? When did you first bring the HRC into the community, and have
you seen a marked improvement in trust over time? That this has started to take hold in the community and strengthen
with time?
JB: Yes. There are little corners. One was when Beto, whom you've met, asked if he could give computer classes in
E4.
ES: And how did he know computer skills? Where did he get those?
JB: I don't know where he got computer skills! The... do you know Technology Without Borders (see references)? Ok,
so Beto and I were alone in E4 one day and
8
Patrick Kenan walked in from TWB, and Beto said, "Is it all right that I have installed Buntu operating system on two
computers?" And the look on Patrick's face what just amazing! He said, "Oh, of course not. There are many
advantages to Buntu. It takes less space on the hard-drive and you can't get viruses--." I've asked my students in class
if they know what that operating system is, and maybe one or two answer.
So Beto uses his networks to help our programs. Alfonso who lives upstairs is the assistant teacher for the afterschool
program (see references). He's a wonderful, wonderful young person who the children just love. [Pause].
So it's a slow process. There are many anxieties about, you know, will the city turn on them? Will homeland security
start to enforce laws here in the county? I think there is some caution still but our circle of friends in expanding.
Ricardo, who lives right there— we are always happy to see one another. He works in Durham. He has a steady job.
But then he has an extended family, and all members of that extended family seem to like us. Nancy Hilburn, the
teacher, probably has the most ongoing relationships with kids and parents.
ES: The infrastructure seems so neat. You know, the different people and their roles. It seems like there is always
someone here. Maybe you can tell me about what you're thinking in terms of how you structure what you are doing.
Who has what responsibilities, and how that has helped you reach your mission? How do you delegate? How do you
spread out the responsibilities of what you are doing?
JB: So much of what we do is not delegated, but rather initiated by student groups. [Short interruption by local
volunteer].
9
ES: We were talking about the structure and you said it's really not so much of a delegating thing. It's much more of
a—individuals and students that initiate on their own and kind of decide what to take on and just go for it. Tell me a
little bit more about that.
JB: Well LINC is—don't say this to other people—but LINC is my all time favorite group (see references). It's not like
an ESL class. It's like a family. Cultural respect and learning. Other groups get started more slowly so they're not
running programs until about mid-semester and I would like for that to change if I can.
ES: I guess one of the obstacles that you face by using student groups and in your class because it is very semester
based, every semester you are starting over with brand new people. You have to train new people as you were saying
and it doesn't get started until halfway through the semester. So there isn't that continued development of trust between
two people, you know where it is the same person over and over again. And so in that way it puts a lot more pressure
on you and the people in the center who are here consistently to really hold the burden of that trust—to hold most of
the trust because it comes through you. They learn to trust these people because they trust you, and because time after
time they come. But it must be difficult to, like you were saying, keep starting over. How do reconcile that? I guess we
talked about the negative aspects, but what do you see as the positives of bringing in new people all of the time?
JB: [Pause]
ES: Or what you envision as a professor—what you are trying to do in your class?
JB: Well, from a pedagogical perspective, it's a win-win [laughter]. From the perspective of residents who are taking
classes, there is a real serious lack of consistency over time, which varies from program to program. [Long pause].
Yeah, I've thought
10
about this, and we could use someone who speaks Spanish who is always available to mediate, to ask questions,
answer questions.
ES: Is everything volunteer-based? Are there paid position within the center? How do--. Do people volunteer their
time? I know the students volunteer their time, but for you and Rafael and Nancy and the people who are here, and it's
very much a job for them—is that all volunteer-based?
JB: I'm usually successful at getting grants for Nancy through the Public Schools, the PTA, or the ( ). I learned
yesterday that I didn't get a grant. That was too bad. [Laughter]. I personally pay Alfonso, and I pay Beto, and I pay
the utilities, so—
ES: Out of your own pocket?
JB: —Yeah. I think that funding agencies don't know what Human Rights are, and I haven't been able to—even which
I explain it in clear terms—foundation officers might not agree with it. "Everyone has a right to food? No, they have
to work for it!" But the world will change.
ES: That's a very positive outlook! You were talking a little bit earlier—you were saying that once Beto started the
computer classes, that this helped because he had his own networks that he brought in. Networking is an interesting
component of these immigrant communities. How do you feel that networking works within this neighborhood? Do
you feel that there are strong networks, that there is a strong sense of community or strong ties between families—
interfamilial ties—that help to spread the word?
JB: They are very fragmented. Yeah, they are very fragmented. Knowing, for example, the family of Ricardo. That's a
whole extended family. There is a son that is in
11
( ), two children who are in the afterschool program (see reference, Tutoring Program)~so they are always really
happy to see me when I arrive. If we would be--. I have several roles. One is to teach, and the other is to write books
and articles. And if I were to devote the time that it would take to bring in grant money here, I wouldn't be, you know I
wouldn't be doing what I love to do! [Laughter]. So I would rather get a big check from IRS for my deduct—I've
deducted so much from my income tax! [Laughter]. And we remodeled E4, and I paid for the cabinets and I paid for
salaries, and ALL of the workers left for Mexico after that. They were all very good workers. They were tired of
toughing it out.
ES: Did they talk to you about their reasons for leaving?
JB: Family. They more likely talked to Rafael. Rafael did his Master's Thesis on the corner, as a ( ) study of day
laborers. So there's a lot of trust, people have a lot of
trust in him.
ES: Have you found that not speaking Spanish has been difficult in developing relationships with the people here?
[Laughter.] How do you deal with that?
JB: Well people here know more English than they let on. Because most of the students do speak Spanish, and Alfonso
and the school program and Beto, we have more Spanish speaking than we have instances of English speaking. So they
call me "Mami" [Laughter]. The men call me "Mami." Yes it would be better if I knew Spanish. Am I willing to go to
Mexico for a month for an intensive course? No.
ES: I guess back to the topic of networking. You said that it's very fragmented. What do you mean by that? Could you
elaborate on what you mean by fragmented and why it might be so fragmented?
12
JB: There never, never are large gatherings. Only when we have our festivals. There are households who will come out
with barbecues, but that's it.
ES: Have you asked anyone about that or spoken to anyone about what that might be? Why there aren't—
JB: That's a good question.
ES: —development of relationships between communities? Because they are in such a similar and tough situation.
Developing human relationships is such a human instinct, you know, to get through tough situations. Why do you think
that hasn't developed here?
JB: Good question. Rafael thinks it's because the cultural differences for people who come from different provinces—
states—in Mexico, are really quite extraordinary. He says, "Ok, this is what people who come from Mexico City are
like and this is what people from Chiapas are like." And then we also have Ecuadorians, Salvadorians.
ES: [Laugh]. Right, so maybe they are more different than they seem to us, though it is difficult to see that. I have
done a lot of volunteering here through LINC (see references), tutoring English, and one of the students I work with
told me that the reason he didn't try to develop relationships here was because he was afraid if he developed
relationships here, he would forget his family. Whether he stayed or he went home he was still separated. He didn't
want to split his life into two places. It was almost easier to not make any ties here in order to make it easier when he
returned to Mexico. I don't know if that's unique to him or if that's a story that is consistent with many of the people
here. But it does reflect some on how much their minds are consumed with their home, and how much the place that
they are from is a big part of who they are and what they
13
experience when they're here. I wonder if—. In your experience, do you find that most of the people that come here to
Abbey Court, or who are living here briefly or over time, have intentions of returning back to Mexico?
JB: Yes. There's no doubt that they do, but the economy of Mexico is probably worse than the economy of the United
States.
ES: Many of the laws that we have here in the US seem to miss that fact—of them wanting to come here just to work
to return home—and it makes it so much more difficult for them to do that because it is so difficult for them to get
across the border. Because there are so few visas and the path for an undocumented immigrant is so risky that many
people stay here longer than they would like to, for fear of being able to come back over if they returned [to Mexico].
What are your thoughts on that, and your experience, the people who live here and how they make a life here even
when it isn't where they want to be.
JB: Our neighbors are so family oriented. There is a great attachment to the children, and to the circle of relatives that
live nearby. And that makes a huge difference. I mean, I've found casually that babies who are outside with their
mothers, and then begin to grow up, and then get older and venture a little bit away from Mama [laugh] and then get
enough courage to wave to me. So it's a very tight bonding. In my experience in New York, our childhood practices
foster more individuality, more "Go along kid. You figure it out."
ES: How do you feel about community involvement in the Human Rights Center activities? Have you had difficulty
bringing people in for the different services you provide? What obstacles have you faced?
14
JB: Yeah, its an--. For a long time Rafael and I devoted a significant amount of time to advertising programs, but then
you always have to argue with management about the leaflets and so forth. We do have a text messaging service that
goes out to people saying that—. I know a text message went out about the tax attorneys. Um, it's hard. [Pause]. To
invite people for an assembly to discuss what it is that they would like, I think few people would turn up.
Now the afterschool program (see references, Tutoring Program) is a huge success—there are 50 children that come!
Nancy has to turn away kids. "You don't live in Abbey Court, so you're going to have to leave." But it's extremely
popular. It's consistent. It's ( ) with respect to time and days. It follows the public school calendar.
ES: So what would you say makes her—. What qualities—like you were saying consistency—make for the most
successful outreach programs? Of the different programs, the 30 programs, the different things that go through, what
have you found to be the most helpful? To receive the most positive response from the community?
JB: Well besides the afterschool, it would be LINC and Technology Without Borders (see references). People want to
use the computers right? [Laughter]. They want them fixed! We're not very fast at that, but it usually needs to go
through some people.
ES: You said that sociology is changing. What can we do as citizens, as American citizens, to help make this Human
Rights change? What is it that students, that you, that members of the community—what should we be doing to help
promote this change towards a Human Rights mentality?
JB: Oh, that's a nice question. Always asking good questions, and I think that this generation of students, this last few
chords, strongly believes that people are equal. They
15
should be treated that way. And once a certain percentage of the population believes that, then it changes.
ES: Do you believe that the current generations that are developing--. I mean I guess as a professor at UNC, in what
you've witnessed, do you see that change in the younger generations? More of an understanding of Human Rights?
JB: Oh definitely. I think we have to assume that these are not carefully crafted ideas, but rather kind of implicit and
tacit assumptions that you make. [Pause] I'll give you an example of how subtle this can be. If we are successful with
this grant—this humanities grant—the public artist would give kids and residents of Rogers Road and here camcorders
to make videos. Then they would project those videos on the buildings. Now that's really subversive isn't it. [Laugh].
But it underscores the dignity of people. You may be undocumented, but you have dignity. You don't care, and look
up there! You can see it on the wall of the building. You are beautiful! So they are going to do it here. They have a
grant from Chapel Hill to do it here. I'm trying to get a grant to do it here and at Rogers Road. And we just got a van.
So we can tool from here over to Rogers Road.
ES: Your excitement about everything is definitely contagious. I think it can be seen through the immense volunteer
effort that comes to Abbey Court. I don't know many people in Chapel Hill that don't know about it.
JB: Oh really!
ES: It's just fantastic. Is there anything that you want to say before we—.
JB: Well you're an excellent interviewer!
ES: First time! So, not really. Anything about Abbey Court, about immigration, about Human Rights, about what we
could be doing?
16
JB: Yeah, capitalism maybe? [Laughter] It's a big topic! Well there are lots of pieces of buildings falling off here, and
things are in shambles. And the management doesn't fix them. They aren't advertising apartments. We got E4 through
Craig's List. So I suspect that the objective of Lucas is to let the apartment complex fall down and then sell it for a
profit. And I've told everybody that I'll be in front of the bulldozer. [Laughter] They just can't do this to poor people.
ES: Where will people go if this happens?
JB: Well let's say that they pay them half a million dollars to relocate. I don't think they will.
ES: Well thank you so much for everything. Thank you so much.
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
Dublin Core
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Title
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R-0456 -- Blau, Judith.
Description
An account of the resource
Dr. Judith Blau is a professor of sociology at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and chair of the Social and Economic Justice Undergraduate Minor. Blau is the founder and director of the Human Rights Center of Chapel Hill & Carrboro (HRC). Major topics of the interview center around the origins of the Human Rights Center of Chapel Hill & Carrboro, Blau's early work in sociology and her shift to public sociology and Human Rights, specific obstacles to Latino immigrant outreach and current successful projects, and hopes for the future of sociology, Human Rights, and the HRC. Blau began projects in general sociology in NYC before moving to North Carolina to teach at UNC-Chapel Hill. Since the move, her focus has shifted to public sociology, or Human Rights, and her students complete service requirements through the projects of the HRC. This center is particularly unique in that it was established within the largely-immigrant community of Abbey Court in order to evade private property restrictions against freedom of speech. The most successful outreach programs include the after school program, adult ESL classes, and computer classes.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
19 March 2011
Format
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R0456_Audio.mp3
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/6272">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/dc3b3318445c153191c3b3738079da95.mp3
37b3b245335ec068a38ce2351331b649
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/aea941d51618ba6aa5540d618cabf5be.pdf
40350240010034de9354c02e3d63c66a
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0659
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
4 April 2013
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Caye, Joanne S.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Social workers; Professors
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
United States
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
North Carolina
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Byrum, Elizabeth.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Joanne Caye is a clinical associate professor in the School of Social Work at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (UNC). After spending most of her professional life in social work, she began as a professor at UNC. In addition to teaching, she is currently working on her dissertation for her PhD in education, which is focused on Hispanic adults with low English proficiency and little prior formal education who choose to be citizens after 15 years of living in the United States. Four years ago, Caye began teaching citizenship classes in Siler City, N.C. through the Chatham County Literacy Council. Caye is able to provide insight into what immigrants often go through in preparing for naturalization and the barriers they experience during the classes or prior to the classes. In this interview, Caye describes the structure of her classes in Siler City, N.C., making sure to note the variety of teaching techniques she employs. However, she also explains the situation that many immigrants, often without documents, face where there can be frequent license checks. Caye includes many anecdotes about specific students she has taught to demonstrate the naturalization experience and also provides examples of how citizenship can be part of identity or simply a “means to an end.” She discusses that some of the barriers to classes and the process in general are mostly due to money and lack of confidence; as a teacher, she focuses strongly on building confidence among her students. Many of the immigrants that Caye works with have not experienced formal education and this can sometimes create a “fear of learning” that she works to overcome. Caye also talks extensively about why immigrants may choose not to seek citizenship, and that is usually because of fear of disloyalty to one's birth country and external factors such as lack of child care, support, money, or transportation to be able to take the classes. She also discusses that prior successes of her students who have become naturalized provides encouragement to many of her current students and she expects them to come back and share their experiences. In turn a more greatly connected community has resulted in the area, from what Caye can observe.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Joanne Caye by Elizabeth Byrum, 04 April 2013, R-0659, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/18186
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Citizenship and immigration; Adult Education; Identity
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Elizabeth Byrum: This is Elizabeth Byrum interviewing Joanne Caye. This interview is conducted on April 4, 2013 at 10:22 in the morning. We are in her office on the campus of UNC-Chapel Hill in the Tate Turner Kuralt building. Joanne, can you start off telling me about yourself and your background?
Joanne Caye: Um, my profession is that I am a social worker. I went to college for social work and um, worked for twenty years and then was invited to come teach at the school because as one of my very dear friends said, 'They needed old practitioners.' So, um, I came here -- I got my masters somewhere in there -- and um, have been teaching here at the school, or doing trainings. I'm writing curriculum out in the community for almost 20 years and um, staring retirement in the face. But about four -- let's see, that's social work. About four years ago, I did two things. One is I started a program to get my doctorate in education -- a little late in my career, but I've always wanted it so why not? And the other is that I started volunteering to teach a citizenship class in Siler City. Both of those things have changed my life. And um, so where we are now is that I am in the process of getting ready to defend my proposal for my PhD, which is about citizenship among Hispanic adults in Siler City. And so both of my life changers are moving forward and I wouldn't have it any other way.
EB: Can you talk about the beginning experience of working with immigrants and how did that all start?
JC: I knew a little about the work that North Carolina has done with immigrants because between, oh gosh, 1999 and -- no, 1989 and 1993, I worked at the Division of Social Services in Raleigh. And I was over an area in the division that was called, oh it's an awful name. It's called SLIAG, it's called the State Legalization Impact Assistance Grants. And what this did back in the late '80s and early '90s, is that it was what people now call the guestworker program. And so, we were connected to Lutheran Family Services, with the immigrant work they were doing and it was the first time, that the U.S. had really gotten serious about creating a pathway for individuals to go from non-document status to getting documents and being able to get employed at different kinds of jobs. So that's kind of where I first started paying attention to immigration. And I kept paying attention to it since then. I took Spanish in college, so I was kind of connected a little bit that way. And then, um, here at school we have something that is called the Transmigration Certificate. And so a good friend of mine, Josh Henson, is responsible for that. So we started kind of dealing with some of that. He knows a whole lot more about that than I do, but I was on the periphery. Um, and then starting to volunteer with this class, it got, it became very real. I understood very clearly. Because in the beginning, we used to have much larger classes because there was um, tremendous hesitancy to go to ESL classes if you didn't have documents. And I think I can safely say that there is a rather large section of the population in Siler City that doesn't have documents and as I got known in Siler City, and as people started to trust me--
[Interruption, phone rings and Joanne Caye asks to answer it]
JC: {interruption] That's interesting, they said that they got something that said that my email was no longer valid. I'll find out about that. But anyway, I'm so sorry, um, so, um, what was I saying? Can we run it back a second? And I won't be in a terrible gap.
EB: Yep.
JC: Can you do that with that?
EB: Um--
[Recorder is turned off and then back on]
[END OF PART I OF THE INTERVIEW]
JC: What I started to say is in Siler City, as I got to be well known and people started to trust me a little bit, folks that didn't have documents were a little more obvious about it. So, part of what I did when I was taking a class is we had to do -- it was a qualitative research class and so we had to do a couple of interviews. So I thought about it and I did one interview with the second in command with the Siler City police and I asked him about folks in Siler City that don't have documents and then I did an interview using pseudonyms with a gentleman from Siler City who made it very clear to me that he didn't have documents. And I compared. What was so interesting about that interview is that they were so similar. Just coming from different sides, you know, um. Obviously they had different reactions to the things they saw, but both of them told me that they thought that the number of Hispanics in Siler City, probably between 50 and 80 percent didn't have documents. So that's pretty high. And so, um, my whole point for bringing that up is that I began to learn a lot more about what that means and how many of these folks -- I think about Deferred Action -- were folks who came here as kids, are now young adults, and are stuck. And um, a number of these kids, you know the trouble the parents were having keeping their kids in school, um, because they didn't like they had any place to go. You know, some of that kind of stuff. How hard these people work and they pay taxes, they can just never put in tax returns. So they never get any refunds, because they can't put in the tax returns. Um, really, it's significantly, I don't even know if it's a word, it facialized my understanding of immigration. Now everybody had faces and I have to say that I still struggle with this whole notion of 'What do you do about documents and no documents?' But these folks have been here for years and years, and they work hard, and they are more American than apple pie. You know, it doesn't matter that they're speaking English, they're here. So yeah, that's a very long answer to your question.
EB: [laughter] And a lot of people you're working with, do you know their status here? Or is that not really a consideration?
JC: We never really ask. But I'm doing it long enough now so that I can begin to hear things and I understand a little bit of the code, you know so I can figure out. But the bottom line is we don't care. Chatham County Literacy Council is very clear that we never ask and we don't. Um, and because the class is not an accredited class in Siler City Center, I mean I have class from there, I use their stuff, they're very sweet, but my folks aren't on their roles, so there's no issue about documentation there. So, do we ask? No. Can I figure it out? Frequently. Because you can tell the folks coming to citizenship class to learn English, because they can't sign up for the other classes. And um, but it becomes pretty clear.
EB: Is there a large number who do come to the class for English and aren't necessarily close, I guess, to taking the exam?
JC: Um, the number is increasing in the Saturday class. Because my class is in the community college, the number of people who did that pretty much has bottomed out. Two reasons: one is it's in the community college. And the other is that in Siler City, the road that the community college is on, because it's brand new, the road that Siler City Center is on, is the same road that the hospital is on and there's sheriffs cars on it all the time. And they do license checks, you know. So folks don't want to come in that road. You know, some of the folks in the class have told me that the Siler City police will do license checks, um, more heavily on school nights, when there's a school event or um, when they're having PTA meetings, I mean, which just makes me a little crazy. And when I asked Major Harmon about that, who is the second in command in the Siler City police department, and he was just quite talkative. Um when I was asking him about that, he said, 'Well, people shouldn't be driving without licenses. And we're almost always in the same place at the same time.' I'm thinking, 'But yeah, how did you choose those places?' It's pretty clear they're looking for people who don't have licenses. Several years ago, Chatham County declined being part of the 287g -- do you know what I'm talking about?
EB: Emhm.
JC: Ok, more recently, not very recently, because now 287g is kind of slowing down, you know they don't do it so much anymore. I think that the folks in Chatham kind of admired what the sheriff in Alamance was doing because he is Tate? Is that his name? I'll have to go back and look. Oh my gosh, pretty rabid about finding people who weren't documented and putting them in jail. Um, but the pendulum has swung the other way and so he's under investigation by the Feds anyway, the guy in Alamance is. So, um I think there is some push-back from that now. So they're not doing that so much in Chatham, but they're still doing the license checks. You know, and people can get deported for that.
EB: Right. And so is that affecting the attendance at your classes sometimes you think?
JC: I think so. When we moved, we were in an old church and I used to feel bad because some of the people weren't in the best of physical shape. We'd have six, seven, eight, nine people every week. Now I have, like last week, I had one. Commonly, I'll have four and the people who just kind of come to learn English, they don't come. Cause we're sitting right there with the sheriff's department. I mean, th police is on the other side of town, but they park on our street a lot.
EB: And regarding the structure of the class, what does a typical class look like that you teach?
JC: Well we try to change it up some, so that it's not, so it's not lethal. But um, let's see, it's, it's pretty much a teach to the test, I do have to say. Everybody who comes gets a copy of the questions because as I'm sure you are aware, there are websites out there that say, 'If you pay $39.99, we'll get you all the forms you need.' That makes me so angry. And what I say to these folks is, 'Do not pay for these forms! Do not! You can get them for free!' I say, 'If you can't get 'em, I'll get 'em.' Don't pay for these forms, because they were sending in money to people to get the forms you can get for free. Talk about a scam. And, god, it makes me mad. And so, everybody gets a copy of the questions in English and Spanish, everybody gets the words they are going to use for the reading and the writing. Everybody gets the lit—the civics book I mentioned to you. And then the other stuff, I make copies of and I bring in. And I have maps and I have all kinds of stuff that I bring in. But because this isn't my classroom, I have to put everything back into a big tub every week. So everything has to get put away. I finally -- this surprised me. It took me over a year. I kept pull -- I have a little flag and we would bring it out to talk about the flag. And we would talk about what the Pledge of Allegiance is and stuff. And so I kept putting the flag out and they kept putting it away. Finally, there was a little place at the very top of the white board and I found out that I could put it up there and it wouldn't be in anyone's way. Well now, I finally got the flag up and I thought that was very interesting. But anyways, so um, what we do. It literally depends on how many people show up. Because I have access to the internet, sometimes what we will is--we will go through -- and I hate the way the questions are ordered, they're in such a bizarre order, they don't fit together and so I do them out of order, you know, but then we'll go back and do them in order because I want to get them used to hearing them no matter how they show up. But, um, usually we'll talk about some of the questions and that's when we'll do the pictures you know and we'll have stuff from the internet. This citizenship study guide has all kinds of pictures about all different kinds of things. And um, like for instance when we're talking about the national anthem, I'll ask them if they know the national anthems from their own countries. And when you have a small class like this, you can do that. So everybody will take turns singing their national anthem -- you should hear me try to sing the Star-Spangled Banner, it's outrageous. So we'll do some of that and then we'll go on the internet and look up the flags of their home countries and then we'll look at the U.S. flag and they'll tell me about their flag and I'll tell them about ours. Because I have this expression for adult learners, 'You're looking for the hooks in their head.' And what I mean by that is adult learners attach new information to previously learned information. So if they've got it that Guatemala has x, y, z um, anthem, then it would make more sense, 'Okay, this is the anthem of the United States.' And what's that anthem about? This is what our anthem is about and it was written during the War of 1812 and this guy named Francis Scott Key was on a ship. And the smoke parted during the war and he could see the flag. You know, so we talked about that. So it's a very interactive kind of thing. So we do some of that. If I'm using the book that I made the copies of, then we'll literally go through. They have to write answers to that. The civics book that we use is very simple, so um, we'll do some of that. I have a couple, I don't have as many as I want, it's outrageous, but I have the musical “1776.” So when we're talking about the Declaration of Independence, I'll run it to the end when they're all in there signing it. And then they stop and there's the picture of them signing the Declaration of Independence. Sometimes, if it's people that have a little more English I'll show them that part where John Adams is trying to talk Thomas Jefferson into writing it. You know, cause I figure, that works. Some of them borrow it and take it home and watch the whole movie at home, you know, and I figure why not. Um, I look for some, there are some websites that have a picture of, YouTubed, of the citizenship text. But I find most of them are really stilted. And I saw one which horrified me and scared everybody to death. It was the examiner was asking the person to explain what it meant to be in a totalitarian state. And I went, 'No, don't worry about this. We're not going to do this.' You know, that's why I'm quite envious of the CDs and stuff that are with this, this one [points]. That would be cool. So then we do that and depending on the crowd, for a long time, we really had to do a lot of writing. Because that's where they were lowest in confidence. They just didn't feel like they could write. The group I have now, they've got writing made in the shade. One of them is a physician who--she is such an outlier--from El Salvador and is um--I mean she is trying to get her English up to snuff so she can pass her TOEFL with a high enough grade so she can get back and get her certificate to be a physician here. Needless to say, she knows the stuff. She doesn't know the civics. So the group I've got now, writing they've got, reading they've got, so we spend much more time on the civics. And the citizenship study guide, we can do it as a group, or we can do it individually on computers, depending how many are there. And it's a multiple choice, so that gets them closer, you know. And then we get to the place where they have to answer it orally. If they're not sure, what I say is, 'Take the questions, look at this, and then you can answer the questions. Look 'em up, that's fine,' you know 'This isn't the test, so look 'em up until you get comfortable with that.' Then when they have a little more confidence, they are more comfortable answering them out loud. And what's pretty funny is that we have an agreement that they have to speak in English and I have to speak in Spanish and they correct me and I correct them, you know. So it works out pretty well. And then let's see. Haven't done...Oh we have a reading test that the Chatham County Literacy Council asks me to do once every six months. So we do those, but that's not terribly often. When we had folks that were very, very inexperienced with letters and writing and stuff, we made our own flashcards of letters and would just hand them to them and see if they could come up with words. We had them working in groups, because then the folks that knew them better could help the ones that didn't know it as well. Um, so that's kind of what we do. If they look kind of tired, sometimes I bring a medicine ball with me and we do exercises in the middle of class. We've done things where we throw balls and practice each other's names. Um, we write on the board. I want them to get used to doing that kind of stuff. They tease me, because you know, culturally, especially the women [whispers], they are really soft and you can't hear them and they cover their mouth. So I'll sit there and go 'What? What?' and they'll kind of look and I'll say, 'I can't hear you, I can't hear you.' And I'll make them, their version is to yell at me but it's not yelling. But cause they're barely saying things loud enough to be heard. And I'll say, 'If the examiner cannot hear you, he will think you do not know.' You know, so we practice, hollerin' it out, you know, so that they know. And then the rule is that when they take the test, they have to come back and they have to tell us what questions they got asked, what they had to write, and what they had to read. And that is worth its weight in gold. Because then they're not getting it from me. They're getting it from themselves. The other thing we do is that we have them make up, I have them make up the sentences that everyone else has to write. So that, they learn in lots of ways doing that. So that's the kind of stuff that we do. How does that compare with you Durham classes?
EB: Similar. I think that there's, it's a little more structured. How long are these classes?
JC: Two hours.
EB: They are also two hours. Um--
JC: Yeah, after two hours, they're dead
EB: Is there homework, is that a component of it?
JC: I ask them to do stuff but I don't always check it. Everything I'm reading in the research says that homework is good. So I'm trying to decide if I want to start instituting homework. I may.
EB: In Durham we don't have the computers, so it's all the teacher is in front kind of--
JC: It's all low tech.
EB:--dictating, she has maps and stuff, and she points to them for geography lessons, but um, there's group sometimes to answer the questions and sometimes we play games. Similar, just less. She tries to go in order, there's chapters. It's a ten-unit book and she tries to do one or two units depending how big they are each week.
JC: But I'll bet you that the units don't go in the order that the questions are. Which just, the way they do these questions. Have you read through all 100 questions? They're crazy. You know, you're going along and you're asking about the Supreme Court and then all of a sudden there's a question about the Declaration of Independence. It's like, 'What? No.' You know what, adults need to have stuff kind of so you can put it in a little silo and you can learn that piece.
EB: Chronological helps.
JC: Yeah, I'm just like, 'don't do that.'
EB: What have you learned about the naturalization process through doing the classes?
JC: Oh gosh. I have learned that examiners are very different. So some folks get really easy and some folks don't. We shoot to the hard ones and then they come in and say, 'Piece of cake.' But there are some that are tough and we are clearly teaching to the test. We're shooting for the hard guys. There's one woman in Durham that everyone lives in fear of but um, ah--The other thing is, that although I don't really know all the reasons, because that's what I'll learn, why people choose to do this, boy they're pretty energized about this. So the naturalization, there are some parts of the exam that I wonder, you know, does it really matter who wrote the Federalist Papers? Or that kind of stuff. But I would love it if we could spend more time on what it means to be a good citizen. I'm going to use that loosely. But um, that would be nice. Generally, I think it is hard, but I don't think it's unreasonable. I think it's a good idea that people need to know something about the country they say they want to join. The Oath of Allegiance is, is – [interruption] in such difficult language--
[interruption] --oh my gosh, I'll call her back. It will stop in a second, let me in fact. The Oath of Allegiance is written, have you read it?
EB: No
JC: I don't have all this stuff with me, otherwise I'd be glad to show it to you [interruption]. Is written in such legal ease, that these folks simply do not understand what they are saying. It's 'that I adjure any allegiance to any prince, potentate, or sovereign from any totalitarian, but other than--' you know it's like, 'OH, my goodness, really.' You know, so um, we practice that a lot. Not a lot, but some. Because I want them to have at least some notion what in the world they are saying. Because this is an oath and you say you promise this. It's much easier for folks to take the naturalization test [interruption] now that we have dual citizenship.
[interruption] Oh my, this just doesn't ever happen, three times and it'll stop.
So um, I guess um, I have learned that it's very hard for people who are coming with low education. That they have to work double time and they're willing to do it. The part that I get most upset about, not about the test itself, is that frequently [interruption] the folks who take it--
[interruption] --and that's Afghanistan. My goodness gracious, I can get back to all of these people.
But any how -- it really is Afghanistan -- but um, they are still treated like people without documents [interruption], even when they become citizens. That's not okay. And it has more to say about, it has a whole lot more to say about us, than it does about them. Because they're proud as can be of being citizens and we don't always treat them well.
EB: What do you think are some of the largest barriers to finally becoming a citizen?
JC: Oh, I think money. The folks I see, it's not impossible, but it's a stretch. Some of the folks it takes a long time for them to pull this together [interruption], but they get there, they get there. Sorry about all the noise. And um, the other piece is that they have to get past their fear of um, doing school kinds of things. Um, like I said, a lot of these folks haven't been in school very much, their children, not always, but a lot of their kids are having a real tough time in the schools here, they don't find the schools terribly welcoming and now they're going to put themselves in that position? I think there's a lack of confidence. In fact what I say to them, excuse my pronunciation, what I say all the time is, 'Competencia, sí. Mucho, alto. Confidencia, confianza...' How do you say confidence?
EB: Confianza
JC: Is that right? 'Confianza, no. Bajo.' So I said, 'Here, we raise the confidence because you know this stuff. You just have to practice.' It's like the woman who came Tuesday. She started out, she wouldn't speak, she wouldn't say anything, and I kept saying, 'But you know these things, but she would say, 'I know nothing, I know nothing, No sabe nada.' And I said, 'I bet you do.' I looked at her and I said, 'So..' What did I start out asking her? I started asking her about Guatemala which is where she is from. And she would tell me some stories and I would say, 'So, can we write something?' And we figured out what she can write and her handwriting is beautiful. So she wrote this down. And I said, 'Look at this, look at this.' She said, 'But I know nothing.' I said, 'You know this and you know this' and we went through and finally I said, 'So what we will do in here is teach you the civics, the historia de los Estados Unidos.' I said, 'That's what we'll teach you.' And I said, 'Everything else, you know.' And as I got to know her a little better, oh yeah. So I had her read the words, she could read them all. She didn't know what she was reading sometimes, but she could read them. And I said, 'The rest we can teach you.' So when she left, she's moving from Siler City to Pittsboro. So I said, 'We'll have to see if there's a class in Pittsboro.' And she says, 'But I like coming here.' And I said, 'If you want to come here, you are welcome to come here.' But it's a drive, and she goes--I was talking about gas. But I think that matters to her. If she comes, that's great. And I think she had a good time, when she left, I mean she didn't want to leave. And finally at 8:00, I said, 'You have to go now' [laughter]. 'Goodbye, I have to go home.' But yeah, so I think that money and confidence. You know, I have some people that I call some of my characters who oh my gosh, they want...One gentleman that I'm thinking about, he's an older gentleman and if he didn't know the answer, he didn't want to make it look like he didn't know cause I think that was face-saving for him. So he would go, 'I have to think.' And he would say it in English, 'I have to think.' And I would wait for a little bit and I would think, 'We do not have a clue.' So I would, you know, do stuff. So I think it's the learning. For some of them, they haven't been school in forty, fifty years if at all. But yeah, money and confidence.
EB: Is it difficult maybe with people who haven't had formal education, to introduce learning and the process of learning instead of memorization? Um, I was talking to someone else and they talked about how their grandmother came here um, not sure if she took a class specifically, but basically she just memorized what she had to know for the exam. And now if you ask her, she has no clue.
JC: Well, I think some of that happens, you know. And that's part of the reason why I want to do some more understanding. Because I want to see how much they comprehend, which is part of the reason why I try to stop for a little while and when we say freedom of speech, we'll say, 'What is that? What does that mean?' We'll talk about that you can say 'I don't like something' and that's alright as long you don't threaten people. And then we had a talk about what it means to threaten people. So we practice that a lot and um, I'll ask..We talk a lot about current affairs, you know. When Sotomayor was going on to the Supreme Court, it was like, 'Who is that? What does that mean? How long does she get to be there?' you know, 'What does she get to decide?' Here you've got a Latina that's on the Supreme Court and what does the Supreme Court get to do that has anything to do with you? And every time a Supreme Court decision would come up that I would think might have something to do with them, we would play with it. Are you running out of time?
EB: No
JC: Okay, so um, I push that a lot. I think for some folks, they get a little frustrated with that because they do just want to memorize and be done. I pay attention to the questions, but some days we got to talk about what it means. Oh, gosh, like six months ago or something or so, there was a rock group of women in Russia that got put in jail because they said something bad about Putin, and we talked about, 'Okay, so what is there in the U.S. constitution that says that that shouldn't happen here? What amendment is that?' you know, and they're like, '….' And what do you call those first ten amendments? 'They're the Bill of Rights and they're for you! Your rights!' So we push it pretty hard. But yes, there are people who just want to memorize. And I'm there to help them get ready to take the exam, so if that's how they want to do it, that's what they can do.
EB: Besides some of the difficulties we just talked about, are there other reasons why an immigrant who has maybe lived here for ten, fifteen, twenty years doesn't ever want to become a citizen, you think?
JC: Um, I think they are afraid that it means that they are disloyal to their country of origin. I think that's a biggie. Sometimes it's external stuff. It is changes in job hours, it's the gas to come to class, it's lack of childcare, it's um, a spouse that doesn't want them to do it, it's um, let's see [pause], because they don't have documents. You know, there's lots of reasons why people don't proceed. But um, what I'm reading tells me the external stuff is pretty major. But I also--I've had many of the people who've been in class tell me that um, they don't like one of the questions. One of the possible answers is that you give up loyalty to your home country and they don't like that at all. So what I say to them is 'You have four answers. If you don't like that one, choose another one. If you feel bad, because you're saying you're not loyal to Guatemala, don't say it. Say that you will be loyal to the laws of the United States.' And that's okay. You don't have to not be loyal to Guatemala. You can be loyal to the United States' laws, but still have a very strong feeling about your home country. And even everything I'm ready, that's absolutely correct. I'm not telling them something that's going to get them in trouble. So, yeah, that's a biggie. But um, I think there's a lot of external stuff, childcare, gas, time, um...Their work hours are so bizarre. Now the poultry plants in um, Siler City, are gone. But before that, they never knew when they were going to have to work. So they just have to stay at work.
EB: Right. So you have experienced some immigrants who have experienced this possible fear of losing their birthright and heritage in becoming a U.S. citizen?
JC: Oh yeah. It's very real and they will tell me proudly that they want dual citizenship. I have also a personal connection to that because one of my best friends is a naturalized citizen from Brazil and she still keeps both passports, because she feels so strongly about that. So I thought, 'What is it that we think people are supposed to give that up?' No, you know, you can have them both. Legally now with many countries, not all, but with many you can do that. And certainly most of people that I see you can. Because Mexico, Latin America, Colombia, those are all countries where you can have dual citizenship. Now, the U.S. never goes the other way. If I was going to live there, I could not maintain my U.S. citizenship. But if they want to come here, they can. The U.S. is so funny. Now we won't recognize dual citizenship with anybody for our citizens.
EB: How do you think citizenship and becoming a citizen or either not choosing to become one leads to identity and an individual's decision about who they are?
JC: You know, that's a really good question and I have pondered that a lot. I don't know if I have a really good answer. I can tell you two things: one is this whole conversation about maintaining, 'Yes, I'm a U.S. citizen, but I'm really Guatemalan.' I mean there is a young woman who is getting ready to take her test and she hasn't been back to Guatemala since she has been in this country and she came as a young person. She's not sure she'll ever go back to Guatemala, but if you ask her who she is, she said, 'I'm a U.S. citizen, but I'm a Guatemalan.' You know, I find that very interesting. I'm comparing that with probably the person who was pretty close to being the most important to my deciding that this was the population I really want to spend my time with. No surprise, her name is Maria. Maria is older, um, still has children and um, she's just got a great sense of humor, but she has some health problems. And, excuse me. She wasn't in class for a long time which was really unusual. And um, so when she came back to class, I was so happy to see her and she told me she had had a heart attack. And I said, 'Oh, Maria,' and we talked some about that and she said, 'I told my husband not to worry because I would not die until I was a citizen.' I could feel these goosebumps come up on my arm. Well she passed her test and I went to see her take her oath. I don't get to see everybody, but I went to see her and um, I took her aside after that and I said, 'Maria,' and she goes, 'What?' 'Just because you are a citizen doesn't mean you should go ahead and die. Don't do that.' And she laughed and she goes, 'Okay.' But I mean, that's how much it meant to her. I see it as such a major part as who she sees herself as being. There are other folks that it's a means to an end. Either way, for me it's like, 'That's okay.' But I want them to be active citizens. You know, that's the piece that I think I have some stake in. And you know, Chatham County Literacy Council got a van and took everyone down to vote, you know, who had become citizens recently and they all went down and voted together. And um, you know we talk about voting all the time. And the gentleman I was talking about that was the welder that had taken so long to get his stuff, he was so upset because there was some question about his application and it got straightened out and things got clarified, but it took too long and he couldn't vote. Cause I mean, he was a little distressing. He was very clear who he wanted to vote for and um, it didn't bother me a whole lot because I tend to agree with him. But somebody said they wanted to vote for the other candidate, and he looked at them and said, 'You're an idiot! Do you think that person cares about us?' [laughter]. It's like, 'Whoa, okay.' That's when I said, 'But in this country, you get to decide. So even if you disagree with this person, he gets to vote whatever way he wants. It's not for you to decide, it's for him.' And so we talked about that some.
EB: Right. Regarding the current pathway to citizenship, what do you think are some of the major flaws?
JC: Oh gosh. And I'm not as, I mean I read lots of stuff, but I'm not sure I'm right up to snuff, so I may be committing some heresy here. Um, Deferred Action at least slows down some of the deportation, I think that's a definite positive. But it's not a sure thing. And if you come out of school or if you get in trouble with the law, you can get nailed and now you're visible. So you don't have any cover anymore, now they know who you are, they know where you are. So that's a little scary. Now I know that people with major convictions are probably not going to make it through the citizenship process anyway. So they probably don't try, but at least they know to stay undercover. I know that sounds really stealthy. But that worries me, that they are becoming very visible and then are going to proceed with that. Um, my hope is, you know I'm certainly paying attention to everything everyone's talking about this week, but um, my hope is that we can land some place so these folks don't go into limbo. You know, make a way, make a path, and let folks do that. Because Deferred Action and discontinuing a lot of the deportations, that's a step in the right direction. But folks are still in limbo, you know. We are a country of immigrants and we are arrogant sometimes when we act like the other immigrants are a problem, but our parent immigrants are not. That's nuts. But um, so I worry about the limbo piece. It's not a short thing, it makes people visible without um, a real, solid road to walk on. That's the biggest one. This whole, pink thing about the licenses, that's uhhhh, that's just horrible. And I was very proud to hear that um, our, well my, I don't know where you live, um representative in the state legislature is Deb McManus and she was one of the first sponsors to ban that pink background. So I was very proud of her. Because I was over on lobby day and I saw her and I went into her office and I said [whispers], 'Way to go! That was fabulous.' So I think that's good. Um, and I guess that's my major flaw concern that I have. Cause it's a rickety bridge. And once you're out there, you're out there and you can't pull it back. Um, I'm also concerned about the kids who are dropping out of school now because they still don't believe it. Um, you know, all the prohibitions about scholarships and funds from the Feds and the state and paying out-of-state tuition. I mean it just creates these terrible road blocks and these kids are here, you know. And they've been here, their whole lives, pretty much. So I think that's my biggest piece.
EB: Are any of these concerns expressed by the immigrants themselves or is this other people kind of seeing the system and critiquing it? Or do people you work with kind of understand?
JC: Most of the folks I see are not going to be eligible for the Deferred Action so I don't see their younger folks too much but I hear some things that they talk about with their kids or grandkids. So I can't say that I've had lots of conversations about that, um, but [pause], yeah. I'm thinking about one woman who has since become a citizen. And she talked about um, her granddaughter got pregnant in high school and she thinks part of the reason was she figured, 'Well I can't go to college, so I might as well have a family.' You know, which is a little distressing. I know some other folks that have since become citizens who have a son that dropped out of high school because he didn't see any pathway, you know and--So no, I can't, for me it's second hand. So not so much, the folks I see in class are older.
EB: But, classes like this and also having people come and share their experiences who have successfully become citizens is what is kind of key to making people understand that this is a possible thing?
JC: Yeah. Every time, in fact, this is one change. There's a woman that's in one of my classes that, I have to be so careful how I say this stuff, there is a member of her family that does not have documents and she mentioned that to me. And um, so I found--she can read pretty well--so I found some um, real baseline articles about this whole rule now that if somebody can prove that leaving would bring terrible hardship if they're going to be deported. Because she lives in great fear. So I brought that to her and I said, 'If you cannot read this, if this doesn't make sense to you, I will bring it to somebody and we will get it translated so you can understand this. Or you can bring it to a neighbor or whatever.' But I said, 'You need to know that this is now an executive order,' and we talked about what an executive order was and she doesn't talk much in front of the other students so I kept her a little later than everybody else. And I said, 'This affects you. So you need to understand this and you need to know what it means and heaven forbid if something would happen, you need to know that you ask for help with this immediately.' And so yeah, we try and, any kind of stuff like that, I try and bring it into class. And um, make sure they know what the rules say and what the laws are. Cause, my initial group didn't have a clue. I mean, I'm watching people become more connected over four years, and that's a pretty short period of time.
EB: And the students I assume have reacted positively to when a former student comes back and shares their experience in becoming a citizenship?
JC: Oh, they love it. Oh they love it. In fact they know that that's the rule. And they come back and everybody comes back and applauds and then they have to literally say--they know now when they come out of the exam, they immediately go to their questions and mark the ones they got asked so that everyone knows. And there's a pattern, there's a pattern that shows up with some of the questions. They, they, they have the sentence they were asked to write and they have the class dictate the sentence they were asked to write. So they do that, I mean they become the teacher. I can follow most of what they say, there's some of what they say I can't follow. But there's lots of questions about whether or not they were treated with respect and I mean a lot of that stuff shows up. And except for this one woman who seems to be a bit of a witch, everybody else--and I don't know her name--everybody else feels like they were treated with great respect. You know, and then after they take the oath, they come back and they bring their um, page with their picture on it and stuff. They bring their certificate and then they talk about how they are going to go ahead and get a U.S. passport. It's oh gosh, they just, they love it and the class loves it. Oh yeah, that's a great celebration. And I always take their picture and then we're putting together kind of a pictorial account of everybody who's gotten their citizenship. Because last--in 2012, we had seventeen folks. And given the fact that we're small, this is a rural area, and just from Chatham County Literacy Council, we had 17 people. We were quite pleased. You know, because that's seventeen out of probably thirty-seven, so almost half, which I think is just great. You know a lot of these folks, like I said, they're coming in with not a whole lot. But I think they're doing great.
EB: Great. Those are all the questions that I have for you. So thank you very much
JC: I probably talked you ear off, so I apologize.
EB: No, thank you very much for the interview it's a lot of great information.
JC: Okay, okay.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Profesores; Trabajadores sociales
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Joanne Caye es una profesora clínica asociada en la Escuela de Trabajo Social de la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill. Después de pasar la mayor parte de su vida profesional en el área de trabajo social, comenzó a trabajar como profesora en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte. Además de la enseñanza, ella está trabajando en la tesis de su doctorado en Educación, que se centra en los adultos hispanos con bajo dominio del idioma inglés y con baja educación formal, quienes eligen ser ciudadanos después de 15 años de vivir en Estados Unidos. Hace cuatro años, Caye comenzó a enseñar clases de ciudadanía en Siler City, en Carolina del Norte, a través del consejo de alfabetización del condado de Chatham. Caye es capaz de aportar ideas sobre lo que los inmigrantes atraviesan a menudo en la preparación para la naturalización y las limitaciones que experimentan durante las clases o antes de las clases. En esta entrevista, Caye describe la estructura de sus clases en Siler City, en Carolina del Norte; ella se asegura de llevar nota de la variedad de técnicas de enseñanza que emplea. Sin embargo, también explica la situación que muchos de los inmigrantes enfrentan, a menudo sin documentos, en lugares donde puede existir un control frecuente de las licencias de conducir. Caye incluye muchas anécdotas sobre ciertos estudiantes a los cuales ha dado clases, como una forma de demostrar la experiencia de la naturalización y también proporciona ejemplos de cómo la ciudadanía puede ser parte de la identidad o, simplemente, el "medio para un fin." Ella discute que algunas de las barreras para asistir a las las clases y el proceso en general son principalmente el dinero y la falta de confianza; como profesora, ella se enfoca considerablemente en la construcción de la confianza entre sus estudiantes. Muchos de los inmigrantes con los que Caye trabaja no han experimentado ningún tipo de educación formal y esto a veces puede crear un "temor al aprendizaje", el cual ella trabaja para vencer. Caye también habla extensamente acerca del porqué los inmigrantes pueden optar por no solicitar la ciudadanía, que es por lo general debido al miedo de ser desleales a su país de nacimiento y a factores externos como la falta de cuidado de niños, ayuda, dinero o transporte para poder tomar las clases. Ella también discute que el éxito de sus estudiantes que se han naturalizado proporciona aliento a muchos de sus estudiantes actuales y ella espera que vuelvan y compartan sus experiencias. Como resultado se ha formado una comunidad más conectada en la zona, por lo que Caye puede ver.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Joanne Caye por Elizabeth Byrum, 04 Abril 2013, R-0659, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Ciudadanía e inmigración; Educación para adultos; Identidad
Es: Transcripción
Elizabeth Byrum: This is Elizabeth Byrum interviewing Joanne Caye. This interview is conducted on April 4, 2013 at 10:22 in the morning. We are in her office on the campus of UNC-Chapel Hill in the Tate Turner Kuralt building. Joanne, can you start off telling me about yourself and your background?
Joanne Caye: Um, my profession is that I am a social worker. I went to college for social work and um, worked for twenty years and then was invited to come teach at the school because as one of my very dear friends said, 'They needed old practitioners.' So, um, I came here -- I got my masters somewhere in there -- and um, have been teaching here at the school, or doing trainings. I'm writing curriculum out in the community for almost 20 years and um, staring retirement in the face. But about four -- let's see, that's social work. About four years ago, I did two things. One is I started a program to get my doctorate in education -- a little late in my career, but I've always wanted it so why not? And the other is that I started volunteering to teach a citizenship class in Siler City. Both of those things have changed my life. And um, so where we are now is that I am in the process of getting ready to defend my proposal for my PhD, which is about citizenship among Hispanic adults in Siler City. And so both of my life changers are moving forward and I wouldn't have it any other way.
EB: Can you talk about the beginning experience of working with immigrants and how did that all start?
JC: I knew a little about the work that North Carolina has done with immigrants because between, oh gosh, 1999 and -- no, 1989 and 1993, I worked at the Division of Social Services in Raleigh. And I was over an area in the division that was called, oh it's an awful name. It's called SLIAG, it's called the State Legalization Impact Assistance Grants. And what this did back in the late '80s and early '90s, is that it was what people now call the guestworker program. And so, we were connected to Lutheran Family Services, with the immigrant work they were doing and it was the first time, that the U.S. had really gotten serious about creating a pathway for individuals to go from non-document status to getting documents and being able to get employed at different kinds of jobs. So that's kind of where I first started paying attention to immigration. And I kept paying attention to it since then. I took Spanish in college, so I was kind of connected a little bit that way. And then, um, here at school we have something that is called the Transmigration Certificate. And so a good friend of mine, Josh Henson, is responsible for that. So we started kind of dealing with some of that. He knows a whole lot more about that than I do, but I was on the periphery. Um, and then starting to volunteer with this class, it got, it became very real. I understood very clearly. Because in the beginning, we used to have much larger classes because there was um, tremendous hesitancy to go to ESL classes if you didn't have documents. And I think I can safely say that there is a rather large section of the population in Siler City that doesn't have documents and as I got known in Siler City, and as people started to trust me--
[Interruption, phone rings and Joanne Caye asks to answer it]
JC: {interruption] That's interesting, they said that they got something that said that my email was no longer valid. I'll find out about that. But anyway, I'm so sorry, um, so, um, what was I saying? Can we run it back a second? And I won't be in a terrible gap.
EB: Yep.
JC: Can you do that with that?
EB: Um--
[Recorder is turned off and then back on]
[END OF PART I OF THE INTERVIEW]
JC: What I started to say is in Siler City, as I got to be well known and people started to trust me a little bit, folks that didn't have documents were a little more obvious about it. So, part of what I did when I was taking a class is we had to do -- it was a qualitative research class and so we had to do a couple of interviews. So I thought about it and I did one interview with the second in command with the Siler City police and I asked him about folks in Siler City that don't have documents and then I did an interview using pseudonyms with a gentleman from Siler City who made it very clear to me that he didn't have documents. And I compared. What was so interesting about that interview is that they were so similar. Just coming from different sides, you know, um. Obviously they had different reactions to the things they saw, but both of them told me that they thought that the number of Hispanics in Siler City, probably between 50 and 80 percent didn't have documents. So that's pretty high. And so, um, my whole point for bringing that up is that I began to learn a lot more about what that means and how many of these folks -- I think about Deferred Action -- were folks who came here as kids, are now young adults, and are stuck. And um, a number of these kids, you know the trouble the parents were having keeping their kids in school, um, because they didn't like they had any place to go. You know, some of that kind of stuff. How hard these people work and they pay taxes, they can just never put in tax returns. So they never get any refunds, because they can't put in the tax returns. Um, really, it's significantly, I don't even know if it's a word, it facialized my understanding of immigration. Now everybody had faces and I have to say that I still struggle with this whole notion of 'What do you do about documents and no documents?' But these folks have been here for years and years, and they work hard, and they are more American than apple pie. You know, it doesn't matter that they're speaking English, they're here. So yeah, that's a very long answer to your question.
EB: [laughter] And a lot of people you're working with, do you know their status here? Or is that not really a consideration?
JC: We never really ask. But I'm doing it long enough now so that I can begin to hear things and I understand a little bit of the code, you know so I can figure out. But the bottom line is we don't care. Chatham County Literacy Council is very clear that we never ask and we don't. Um, and because the class is not an accredited class in Siler City Center, I mean I have class from there, I use their stuff, they're very sweet, but my folks aren't on their roles, so there's no issue about documentation there. So, do we ask? No. Can I figure it out? Frequently. Because you can tell the folks coming to citizenship class to learn English, because they can't sign up for the other classes. And um, but it becomes pretty clear.
EB: Is there a large number who do come to the class for English and aren't necessarily close, I guess, to taking the exam?
JC: Um, the number is increasing in the Saturday class. Because my class is in the community college, the number of people who did that pretty much has bottomed out. Two reasons: one is it's in the community college. And the other is that in Siler City, the road that the community college is on, because it's brand new, the road that Siler City Center is on, is the same road that the hospital is on and there's sheriffs cars on it all the time. And they do license checks, you know. So folks don't want to come in that road. You know, some of the folks in the class have told me that the Siler City police will do license checks, um, more heavily on school nights, when there's a school event or um, when they're having PTA meetings, I mean, which just makes me a little crazy. And when I asked Major Harmon about that, who is the second in command in the Siler City police department, and he was just quite talkative. Um when I was asking him about that, he said, 'Well, people shouldn't be driving without licenses. And we're almost always in the same place at the same time.' I'm thinking, 'But yeah, how did you choose those places?' It's pretty clear they're looking for people who don't have licenses. Several years ago, Chatham County declined being part of the 287g -- do you know what I'm talking about?
EB: Emhm.
JC: Ok, more recently, not very recently, because now 287g is kind of slowing down, you know they don't do it so much anymore. I think that the folks in Chatham kind of admired what the sheriff in Alamance was doing because he is Tate? Is that his name? I'll have to go back and look. Oh my gosh, pretty rabid about finding people who weren't documented and putting them in jail. Um, but the pendulum has swung the other way and so he's under investigation by the Feds anyway, the guy in Alamance is. So, um I think there is some push-back from that now. So they're not doing that so much in Chatham, but they're still doing the license checks. You know, and people can get deported for that.
EB: Right. And so is that affecting the attendance at your classes sometimes you think?
JC: I think so. When we moved, we were in an old church and I used to feel bad because some of the people weren't in the best of physical shape. We'd have six, seven, eight, nine people every week. Now I have, like last week, I had one. Commonly, I'll have four and the people who just kind of come to learn English, they don't come. Cause we're sitting right there with the sheriff's department. I mean, th police is on the other side of town, but they park on our street a lot.
EB: And regarding the structure of the class, what does a typical class look like that you teach?
JC: Well we try to change it up some, so that it's not, so it's not lethal. But um, let's see, it's, it's pretty much a teach to the test, I do have to say. Everybody who comes gets a copy of the questions because as I'm sure you are aware, there are websites out there that say, 'If you pay $39.99, we'll get you all the forms you need.' That makes me so angry. And what I say to these folks is, 'Do not pay for these forms! Do not! You can get them for free!' I say, 'If you can't get 'em, I'll get 'em.' Don't pay for these forms, because they were sending in money to people to get the forms you can get for free. Talk about a scam. And, god, it makes me mad. And so, everybody gets a copy of the questions in English and Spanish, everybody gets the words they are going to use for the reading and the writing. Everybody gets the lit—the civics book I mentioned to you. And then the other stuff, I make copies of and I bring in. And I have maps and I have all kinds of stuff that I bring in. But because this isn't my classroom, I have to put everything back into a big tub every week. So everything has to get put away. I finally -- this surprised me. It took me over a year. I kept pull -- I have a little flag and we would bring it out to talk about the flag. And we would talk about what the Pledge of Allegiance is and stuff. And so I kept putting the flag out and they kept putting it away. Finally, there was a little place at the very top of the white board and I found out that I could put it up there and it wouldn't be in anyone's way. Well now, I finally got the flag up and I thought that was very interesting. But anyways, so um, what we do. It literally depends on how many people show up. Because I have access to the internet, sometimes what we will is--we will go through -- and I hate the way the questions are ordered, they're in such a bizarre order, they don't fit together and so I do them out of order, you know, but then we'll go back and do them in order because I want to get them used to hearing them no matter how they show up. But, um, usually we'll talk about some of the questions and that's when we'll do the pictures you know and we'll have stuff from the internet. This citizenship study guide has all kinds of pictures about all different kinds of things. And um, like for instance when we're talking about the national anthem, I'll ask them if they know the national anthems from their own countries. And when you have a small class like this, you can do that. So everybody will take turns singing their national anthem -- you should hear me try to sing the Star-Spangled Banner, it's outrageous. So we'll do some of that and then we'll go on the internet and look up the flags of their home countries and then we'll look at the U.S. flag and they'll tell me about their flag and I'll tell them about ours. Because I have this expression for adult learners, 'You're looking for the hooks in their head.' And what I mean by that is adult learners attach new information to previously learned information. So if they've got it that Guatemala has x, y, z um, anthem, then it would make more sense, 'Okay, this is the anthem of the United States.' And what's that anthem about? This is what our anthem is about and it was written during the War of 1812 and this guy named Francis Scott Key was on a ship. And the smoke parted during the war and he could see the flag. You know, so we talked about that. So it's a very interactive kind of thing. So we do some of that. If I'm using the book that I made the copies of, then we'll literally go through. They have to write answers to that. The civics book that we use is very simple, so um, we'll do some of that. I have a couple, I don't have as many as I want, it's outrageous, but I have the musical “1776.” So when we're talking about the Declaration of Independence, I'll run it to the end when they're all in there signing it. And then they stop and there's the picture of them signing the Declaration of Independence. Sometimes, if it's people that have a little more English I'll show them that part where John Adams is trying to talk Thomas Jefferson into writing it. You know, cause I figure, that works. Some of them borrow it and take it home and watch the whole movie at home, you know, and I figure why not. Um, I look for some, there are some websites that have a picture of, YouTubed, of the citizenship text. But I find most of them are really stilted. And I saw one which horrified me and scared everybody to death. It was the examiner was asking the person to explain what it meant to be in a totalitarian state. And I went, 'No, don't worry about this. We're not going to do this.' You know, that's why I'm quite envious of the CDs and stuff that are with this, this one [points]. That would be cool. So then we do that and depending on the crowd, for a long time, we really had to do a lot of writing. Because that's where they were lowest in confidence. They just didn't feel like they could write. The group I have now, they've got writing made in the shade. One of them is a physician who--she is such an outlier--from El Salvador and is um--I mean she is trying to get her English up to snuff so she can pass her TOEFL with a high enough grade so she can get back and get her certificate to be a physician here. Needless to say, she knows the stuff. She doesn't know the civics. So the group I've got now, writing they've got, reading they've got, so we spend much more time on the civics. And the citizenship study guide, we can do it as a group, or we can do it individually on computers, depending how many are there. And it's a multiple choice, so that gets them closer, you know. And then we get to the place where they have to answer it orally. If they're not sure, what I say is, 'Take the questions, look at this, and then you can answer the questions. Look 'em up, that's fine,' you know 'This isn't the test, so look 'em up until you get comfortable with that.' Then when they have a little more confidence, they are more comfortable answering them out loud. And what's pretty funny is that we have an agreement that they have to speak in English and I have to speak in Spanish and they correct me and I correct them, you know. So it works out pretty well. And then let's see. Haven't done...Oh we have a reading test that the Chatham County Literacy Council asks me to do once every six months. So we do those, but that's not terribly often. When we had folks that were very, very inexperienced with letters and writing and stuff, we made our own flashcards of letters and would just hand them to them and see if they could come up with words. We had them working in groups, because then the folks that knew them better could help the ones that didn't know it as well. Um, so that's kind of what we do. If they look kind of tired, sometimes I bring a medicine ball with me and we do exercises in the middle of class. We've done things where we throw balls and practice each other's names. Um, we write on the board. I want them to get used to doing that kind of stuff. They tease me, because you know, culturally, especially the women [whispers], they are really soft and you can't hear them and they cover their mouth. So I'll sit there and go 'What? What?' and they'll kind of look and I'll say, 'I can't hear you, I can't hear you.' And I'll make them, their version is to yell at me but it's not yelling. But cause they're barely saying things loud enough to be heard. And I'll say, 'If the examiner cannot hear you, he will think you do not know.' You know, so we practice, hollerin' it out, you know, so that they know. And then the rule is that when they take the test, they have to come back and they have to tell us what questions they got asked, what they had to write, and what they had to read. And that is worth its weight in gold. Because then they're not getting it from me. They're getting it from themselves. The other thing we do is that we have them make up, I have them make up the sentences that everyone else has to write. So that, they learn in lots of ways doing that. So that's the kind of stuff that we do. How does that compare with you Durham classes?
EB: Similar. I think that there's, it's a little more structured. How long are these classes?
JC: Two hours.
EB: They are also two hours. Um--
JC: Yeah, after two hours, they're dead
EB: Is there homework, is that a component of it?
JC: I ask them to do stuff but I don't always check it. Everything I'm reading in the research says that homework is good. So I'm trying to decide if I want to start instituting homework. I may.
EB: In Durham we don't have the computers, so it's all the teacher is in front kind of--
JC: It's all low tech.
EB:--dictating, she has maps and stuff, and she points to them for geography lessons, but um, there's group sometimes to answer the questions and sometimes we play games. Similar, just less. She tries to go in order, there's chapters. It's a ten-unit book and she tries to do one or two units depending how big they are each week.
JC: But I'll bet you that the units don't go in the order that the questions are. Which just, the way they do these questions. Have you read through all 100 questions? They're crazy. You know, you're going along and you're asking about the Supreme Court and then all of a sudden there's a question about the Declaration of Independence. It's like, 'What? No.' You know what, adults need to have stuff kind of so you can put it in a little silo and you can learn that piece.
EB: Chronological helps.
JC: Yeah, I'm just like, 'don't do that.'
EB: What have you learned about the naturalization process through doing the classes?
JC: Oh gosh. I have learned that examiners are very different. So some folks get really easy and some folks don't. We shoot to the hard ones and then they come in and say, 'Piece of cake.' But there are some that are tough and we are clearly teaching to the test. We're shooting for the hard guys. There's one woman in Durham that everyone lives in fear of but um, ah--The other thing is, that although I don't really know all the reasons, because that's what I'll learn, why people choose to do this, boy they're pretty energized about this. So the naturalization, there are some parts of the exam that I wonder, you know, does it really matter who wrote the Federalist Papers? Or that kind of stuff. But I would love it if we could spend more time on what it means to be a good citizen. I'm going to use that loosely. But um, that would be nice. Generally, I think it is hard, but I don't think it's unreasonable. I think it's a good idea that people need to know something about the country they say they want to join. The Oath of Allegiance is, is – [interruption] in such difficult language--
[interruption] --oh my gosh, I'll call her back. It will stop in a second, let me in fact. The Oath of Allegiance is written, have you read it?
EB: No
JC: I don't have all this stuff with me, otherwise I'd be glad to show it to you [interruption]. Is written in such legal ease, that these folks simply do not understand what they are saying. It's 'that I adjure any allegiance to any prince, potentate, or sovereign from any totalitarian, but other than--' you know it's like, 'OH, my goodness, really.' You know, so um, we practice that a lot. Not a lot, but some. Because I want them to have at least some notion what in the world they are saying. Because this is an oath and you say you promise this. It's much easier for folks to take the naturalization test [interruption] now that we have dual citizenship.
[interruption] Oh my, this just doesn't ever happen, three times and it'll stop.
So um, I guess um, I have learned that it's very hard for people who are coming with low education. That they have to work double time and they're willing to do it. The part that I get most upset about, not about the test itself, is that frequently [interruption] the folks who take it--
[interruption] --and that's Afghanistan. My goodness gracious, I can get back to all of these people.
But any how -- it really is Afghanistan -- but um, they are still treated like people without documents [interruption], even when they become citizens. That's not okay. And it has more to say about, it has a whole lot more to say about us, than it does about them. Because they're proud as can be of being citizens and we don't always treat them well.
EB: What do you think are some of the largest barriers to finally becoming a citizen?
JC: Oh, I think money. The folks I see, it's not impossible, but it's a stretch. Some of the folks it takes a long time for them to pull this together [interruption], but they get there, they get there. Sorry about all the noise. And um, the other piece is that they have to get past their fear of um, doing school kinds of things. Um, like I said, a lot of these folks haven't been in school very much, their children, not always, but a lot of their kids are having a real tough time in the schools here, they don't find the schools terribly welcoming and now they're going to put themselves in that position? I think there's a lack of confidence. In fact what I say to them, excuse my pronunciation, what I say all the time is, 'Competencia, sí. Mucho, alto. Confidencia, confianza...' How do you say confidence?
EB: Confianza
JC: Is that right? 'Confianza, no. Bajo.' So I said, 'Here, we raise the confidence because you know this stuff. You just have to practice.' It's like the woman who came Tuesday. She started out, she wouldn't speak, she wouldn't say anything, and I kept saying, 'But you know these things, but she would say, 'I know nothing, I know nothing, No sabe nada.' And I said, 'I bet you do.' I looked at her and I said, 'So..' What did I start out asking her? I started asking her about Guatemala which is where she is from. And she would tell me some stories and I would say, 'So, can we write something?' And we figured out what she can write and her handwriting is beautiful. So she wrote this down. And I said, 'Look at this, look at this.' She said, 'But I know nothing.' I said, 'You know this and you know this' and we went through and finally I said, 'So what we will do in here is teach you the civics, the historia de los Estados Unidos.' I said, 'That's what we'll teach you.' And I said, 'Everything else, you know.' And as I got to know her a little better, oh yeah. So I had her read the words, she could read them all. She didn't know what she was reading sometimes, but she could read them. And I said, 'The rest we can teach you.' So when she left, she's moving from Siler City to Pittsboro. So I said, 'We'll have to see if there's a class in Pittsboro.' And she says, 'But I like coming here.' And I said, 'If you want to come here, you are welcome to come here.' But it's a drive, and she goes--I was talking about gas. But I think that matters to her. If she comes, that's great. And I think she had a good time, when she left, I mean she didn't want to leave. And finally at 8:00, I said, 'You have to go now' [laughter]. 'Goodbye, I have to go home.' But yeah, so I think that money and confidence. You know, I have some people that I call some of my characters who oh my gosh, they want...One gentleman that I'm thinking about, he's an older gentleman and if he didn't know the answer, he didn't want to make it look like he didn't know cause I think that was face-saving for him. So he would go, 'I have to think.' And he would say it in English, 'I have to think.' And I would wait for a little bit and I would think, 'We do not have a clue.' So I would, you know, do stuff. So I think it's the learning. For some of them, they haven't been school in forty, fifty years if at all. But yeah, money and confidence.
EB: Is it difficult maybe with people who haven't had formal education, to introduce learning and the process of learning instead of memorization? Um, I was talking to someone else and they talked about how their grandmother came here um, not sure if she took a class specifically, but basically she just memorized what she had to know for the exam. And now if you ask her, she has no clue.
JC: Well, I think some of that happens, you know. And that's part of the reason why I want to do some more understanding. Because I want to see how much they comprehend, which is part of the reason why I try to stop for a little while and when we say freedom of speech, we'll say, 'What is that? What does that mean?' We'll talk about that you can say 'I don't like something' and that's alright as long you don't threaten people. And then we had a talk about what it means to threaten people. So we practice that a lot and um, I'll ask..We talk a lot about current affairs, you know. When Sotomayor was going on to the Supreme Court, it was like, 'Who is that? What does that mean? How long does she get to be there?' you know, 'What does she get to decide?' Here you've got a Latina that's on the Supreme Court and what does the Supreme Court get to do that has anything to do with you? And every time a Supreme Court decision would come up that I would think might have something to do with them, we would play with it. Are you running out of time?
EB: No
JC: Okay, so um, I push that a lot. I think for some folks, they get a little frustrated with that because they do just want to memorize and be done. I pay attention to the questions, but some days we got to talk about what it means. Oh, gosh, like six months ago or something or so, there was a rock group of women in Russia that got put in jail because they said something bad about Putin, and we talked about, 'Okay, so what is there in the U.S. constitution that says that that shouldn't happen here? What amendment is that?' you know, and they're like, '….' And what do you call those first ten amendments? 'They're the Bill of Rights and they're for you! Your rights!' So we push it pretty hard. But yes, there are people who just want to memorize. And I'm there to help them get ready to take the exam, so if that's how they want to do it, that's what they can do.
EB: Besides some of the difficulties we just talked about, are there other reasons why an immigrant who has maybe lived here for ten, fifteen, twenty years doesn't ever want to become a citizen, you think?
JC: Um, I think they are afraid that it means that they are disloyal to their country of origin. I think that's a biggie. Sometimes it's external stuff. It is changes in job hours, it's the gas to come to class, it's lack of childcare, it's um, a spouse that doesn't want them to do it, it's um, let's see [pause], because they don't have documents. You know, there's lots of reasons why people don't proceed. But um, what I'm reading tells me the external stuff is pretty major. But I also--I've had many of the people who've been in class tell me that um, they don't like one of the questions. One of the possible answers is that you give up loyalty to your home country and they don't like that at all. So what I say to them is 'You have four answers. If you don't like that one, choose another one. If you feel bad, because you're saying you're not loyal to Guatemala, don't say it. Say that you will be loyal to the laws of the United States.' And that's okay. You don't have to not be loyal to Guatemala. You can be loyal to the United States' laws, but still have a very strong feeling about your home country. And even everything I'm ready, that's absolutely correct. I'm not telling them something that's going to get them in trouble. So, yeah, that's a biggie. But um, I think there's a lot of external stuff, childcare, gas, time, um...Their work hours are so bizarre. Now the poultry plants in um, Siler City, are gone. But before that, they never knew when they were going to have to work. So they just have to stay at work.
EB: Right. So you have experienced some immigrants who have experienced this possible fear of losing their birthright and heritage in becoming a U.S. citizen?
JC: Oh yeah. It's very real and they will tell me proudly that they want dual citizenship. I have also a personal connection to that because one of my best friends is a naturalized citizen from Brazil and she still keeps both passports, because she feels so strongly about that. So I thought, 'What is it that we think people are supposed to give that up?' No, you know, you can have them both. Legally now with many countries, not all, but with many you can do that. And certainly most of people that I see you can. Because Mexico, Latin America, Colombia, those are all countries where you can have dual citizenship. Now, the U.S. never goes the other way. If I was going to live there, I could not maintain my U.S. citizenship. But if they want to come here, they can. The U.S. is so funny. Now we won't recognize dual citizenship with anybody for our citizens.
EB: How do you think citizenship and becoming a citizen or either not choosing to become one leads to identity and an individual's decision about who they are?
JC: You know, that's a really good question and I have pondered that a lot. I don't know if I have a really good answer. I can tell you two things: one is this whole conversation about maintaining, 'Yes, I'm a U.S. citizen, but I'm really Guatemalan.' I mean there is a young woman who is getting ready to take her test and she hasn't been back to Guatemala since she has been in this country and she came as a young person. She's not sure she'll ever go back to Guatemala, but if you ask her who she is, she said, 'I'm a U.S. citizen, but I'm a Guatemalan.' You know, I find that very interesting. I'm comparing that with probably the person who was pretty close to being the most important to my deciding that this was the population I really want to spend my time with. No surprise, her name is Maria. Maria is older, um, still has children and um, she's just got a great sense of humor, but she has some health problems. And, excuse me. She wasn't in class for a long time which was really unusual. And um, so when she came back to class, I was so happy to see her and she told me she had had a heart attack. And I said, 'Oh, Maria,' and we talked some about that and she said, 'I told my husband not to worry because I would not die until I was a citizen.' I could feel these goosebumps come up on my arm. Well she passed her test and I went to see her take her oath. I don't get to see everybody, but I went to see her and um, I took her aside after that and I said, 'Maria,' and she goes, 'What?' 'Just because you are a citizen doesn't mean you should go ahead and die. Don't do that.' And she laughed and she goes, 'Okay.' But I mean, that's how much it meant to her. I see it as such a major part as who she sees herself as being. There are other folks that it's a means to an end. Either way, for me it's like, 'That's okay.' But I want them to be active citizens. You know, that's the piece that I think I have some stake in. And you know, Chatham County Literacy Council got a van and took everyone down to vote, you know, who had become citizens recently and they all went down and voted together. And um, you know we talk about voting all the time. And the gentleman I was talking about that was the welder that had taken so long to get his stuff, he was so upset because there was some question about his application and it got straightened out and things got clarified, but it took too long and he couldn't vote. Cause I mean, he was a little distressing. He was very clear who he wanted to vote for and um, it didn't bother me a whole lot because I tend to agree with him. But somebody said they wanted to vote for the other candidate, and he looked at them and said, 'You're an idiot! Do you think that person cares about us?' [laughter]. It's like, 'Whoa, okay.' That's when I said, 'But in this country, you get to decide. So even if you disagree with this person, he gets to vote whatever way he wants. It's not for you to decide, it's for him.' And so we talked about that some.
EB: Right. Regarding the current pathway to citizenship, what do you think are some of the major flaws?
JC: Oh gosh. And I'm not as, I mean I read lots of stuff, but I'm not sure I'm right up to snuff, so I may be committing some heresy here. Um, Deferred Action at least slows down some of the deportation, I think that's a definite positive. But it's not a sure thing. And if you come out of school or if you get in trouble with the law, you can get nailed and now you're visible. So you don't have any cover anymore, now they know who you are, they know where you are. So that's a little scary. Now I know that people with major convictions are probably not going to make it through the citizenship process anyway. So they probably don't try, but at least they know to stay undercover. I know that sounds really stealthy. But that worries me, that they are becoming very visible and then are going to proceed with that. Um, my hope is, you know I'm certainly paying attention to everything everyone's talking about this week, but um, my hope is that we can land some place so these folks don't go into limbo. You know, make a way, make a path, and let folks do that. Because Deferred Action and discontinuing a lot of the deportations, that's a step in the right direction. But folks are still in limbo, you know. We are a country of immigrants and we are arrogant sometimes when we act like the other immigrants are a problem, but our parent immigrants are not. That's nuts. But um, so I worry about the limbo piece. It's not a short thing, it makes people visible without um, a real, solid road to walk on. That's the biggest one. This whole, pink thing about the licenses, that's uhhhh, that's just horrible. And I was very proud to hear that um, our, well my, I don't know where you live, um representative in the state legislature is Deb McManus and she was one of the first sponsors to ban that pink background. So I was very proud of her. Because I was over on lobby day and I saw her and I went into her office and I said [whispers], 'Way to go! That was fabulous.' So I think that's good. Um, and I guess that's my major flaw concern that I have. Cause it's a rickety bridge. And once you're out there, you're out there and you can't pull it back. Um, I'm also concerned about the kids who are dropping out of school now because they still don't believe it. Um, you know, all the prohibitions about scholarships and funds from the Feds and the state and paying out-of-state tuition. I mean it just creates these terrible road blocks and these kids are here, you know. And they've been here, their whole lives, pretty much. So I think that's my biggest piece.
EB: Are any of these concerns expressed by the immigrants themselves or is this other people kind of seeing the system and critiquing it? Or do people you work with kind of understand?
JC: Most of the folks I see are not going to be eligible for the Deferred Action so I don't see their younger folks too much but I hear some things that they talk about with their kids or grandkids. So I can't say that I've had lots of conversations about that, um, but [pause], yeah. I'm thinking about one woman who has since become a citizen. And she talked about um, her granddaughter got pregnant in high school and she thinks part of the reason was she figured, 'Well I can't go to college, so I might as well have a family.' You know, which is a little distressing. I know some other folks that have since become citizens who have a son that dropped out of high school because he didn't see any pathway, you know and--So no, I can't, for me it's second hand. So not so much, the folks I see in class are older.
EB: But, classes like this and also having people come and share their experiences who have successfully become citizens is what is kind of key to making people understand that this is a possible thing?
JC: Yeah. Every time, in fact, this is one change. There's a woman that's in one of my classes that, I have to be so careful how I say this stuff, there is a member of her family that does not have documents and she mentioned that to me. And um, so I found--she can read pretty well--so I found some um, real baseline articles about this whole rule now that if somebody can prove that leaving would bring terrible hardship if they're going to be deported. Because she lives in great fear. So I brought that to her and I said, 'If you cannot read this, if this doesn't make sense to you, I will bring it to somebody and we will get it translated so you can understand this. Or you can bring it to a neighbor or whatever.' But I said, 'You need to know that this is now an executive order,' and we talked about what an executive order was and she doesn't talk much in front of the other students so I kept her a little later than everybody else. And I said, 'This affects you. So you need to understand this and you need to know what it means and heaven forbid if something would happen, you need to know that you ask for help with this immediately.' And so yeah, we try and, any kind of stuff like that, I try and bring it into class. And um, make sure they know what the rules say and what the laws are. Cause, my initial group didn't have a clue. I mean, I'm watching people become more connected over four years, and that's a pretty short period of time.
EB: And the students I assume have reacted positively to when a former student comes back and shares their experience in becoming a citizenship?
JC: Oh, they love it. Oh they love it. In fact they know that that's the rule. And they come back and everybody comes back and applauds and then they have to literally say--they know now when they come out of the exam, they immediately go to their questions and mark the ones they got asked so that everyone knows. And there's a pattern, there's a pattern that shows up with some of the questions. They, they, they have the sentence they were asked to write and they have the class dictate the sentence they were asked to write. So they do that, I mean they become the teacher. I can follow most of what they say, there's some of what they say I can't follow. But there's lots of questions about whether or not they were treated with respect and I mean a lot of that stuff shows up. And except for this one woman who seems to be a bit of a witch, everybody else--and I don't know her name--everybody else feels like they were treated with great respect. You know, and then after they take the oath, they come back and they bring their um, page with their picture on it and stuff. They bring their certificate and then they talk about how they are going to go ahead and get a U.S. passport. It's oh gosh, they just, they love it and the class loves it. Oh yeah, that's a great celebration. And I always take their picture and then we're putting together kind of a pictorial account of everybody who's gotten their citizenship. Because last--in 2012, we had seventeen folks. And given the fact that we're small, this is a rural area, and just from Chatham County Literacy Council, we had 17 people. We were quite pleased. You know, because that's seventeen out of probably thirty-seven, so almost half, which I think is just great. You know a lot of these folks, like I said, they're coming in with not a whole lot. But I think they're doing great.
EB: Great. Those are all the questions that I have for you. So thank you very much
JC: I probably talked you ear off, so I apologize.
EB: No, thank you very much for the interview it's a lot of great information.
JC: Okay, okay.
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R-0659 -- Caye, Joanne S.
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Joanne Caye is a clinical associate professor in the School of Social Work at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (UNC). After spending most of her professional life in social work, she began as a professor at UNC. In addition to teaching, she is currently working on her dissertation for her PhD in education, which is focused on Hispanic adults with low English proficiency and little prior formal education who choose to be citizens after 15 years of living in the United States. Four years ago, Caye began teaching citizenship classes in Siler City, N.C. through the Chatham County Literacy Council. Caye is able to provide insight into what immigrants often go through in preparing for naturalization and the barriers they experience during the classes or prior to the classes. In this interview, Caye describes the structure of her classes in Siler City, N.C., making sure to note the variety of teaching techniques she employs. However, she also explains the situation that many immigrants, often without documents, face where there can be frequent license checks. Caye includes many anecdotes about specific students she has taught to demonstrate the naturalization experience and also provides examples of how citizenship can be part of identity or simply a “means to an end.” She discusses that some of the barriers to classes and the process in general are mostly due to money and lack of confidence; as a teacher, she focuses strongly on building confidence among her students. Many of the immigrants that Caye works with have not experienced formal education and this can sometimes create a “fear of learning” that she works to overcome. Caye also talks extensively about why immigrants may choose not to seek citizenship, and that is usually because of fear of disloyalty to one's birth country and external factors such as lack of child care, support, money, or transportation to be able to take the classes. She also discusses that prior successes of her students who have become naturalized provides encouragement to many of her current students and she expects them to come back and share their experiences. In turn a more greatly connected community has resulted in the area, from what Caye can observe.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
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No restrictions. Open to research.
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4 April 2013
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R0659_Audio.mp3
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/18186">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>