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https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/9ffa2fe4945748c65f4893040f1f49b0.mp3
3fa85c9cc7e81b9b0e68db8dc203dd8d
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/3d534fc9f6f1e82ceddea19ffa382281.pdf
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SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0857
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
26 February 2016
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Martínez, Vianey Lemus.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Students
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1994
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Tulancingo -- Hidalgo -- Mexico
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Durham -- Durham County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(98.3676° W 20.0897° N),1994,1;POINT(78.8986° W 35.9940° N),2003,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Reuland, Frances.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Vianey Lemus Martinez is a fourth year undergraduate at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill studying Spanish. She grew up in Tulancingo, Hidalgo in Mexico until age nine when she and her family moved to Durham, North Carolina where they have lived ever since. Lemus Martinez was hesitant to apply for a legal status under the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program that began in 2012. However, after her father, a construction worker, was in a car accident that left him car-less, Lemus Martinez applied for the status and obtained a driver’s license, allowing her family to get a car. With DACA, Lemus Martinez has enjoyed benefits of driving and expanded employment opportunities. She hopes to travel abroad to Mexico as part of an educational experience. Nevertheless, she feels that DACA is only a short-term Band-Aid solution to larger immigration issues in the U.S. The uncertain future often leaves Lemus Martinez feeling anxious, but she finds solace in the power of the people to push through the challenges that may come.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Vianey Lemus Martinez by Frances Reuland, 26 February 2016, R-0857, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/27100
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Family; DREAMers and DACA; Citizenship and immigration; Legal issues
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
[00:00:07] Frances Reuland: Ok. My name is Frances Reuland. It is February 26th, 2016. This interview is taking place at UNC-Chapel Hill in Davis Library, and it is approximately 6:30 pm. I will let my interviewee state her name and the consent to record this interview.
Vianey Lemus Martinez: My name is Vianey Lemus Martinez and you have all my consent to record the interview.
FR: Great. So I just wanted to start off by stating that Vianey was interviewed three years ago, or almost three years ago, in April of 2013 by Antonio de Jesus Alanís, and that interview can be found on the Nuevas Raíces website. That interview had more of a focus on education, but now that Vianey is here with us again, I’m going to ask her about her experience with DACA because since then she has applied and received deferred action status. So with that yeah I’m just going to start. So just to start off, can you briefly explain what that means? Like what is DACA? I know you can Google it [Laughter], but it might just be helpful to just hear--(Vianey interjects “yeah”) your interpretation of it.
VLM: Yeah, so I guess yeah I will just tell you my understanding of it but I think usually the way I think of DACA. It’s, it’s complicated because there are all these terms. [00:01:51] So I think of it as a status. But it’s a no-lawful status so I don’t have any kind of legal status in the country, but it’s essentially me telling the government I’m here in the U.S. without any documentation but look at all of these different requirements that I can fulfill because I’ve been here so long. And I think they basically say like OK since I know you’re here we’re going to let you be in the country for two years. The promise in a way is that I won’t get deported, and they will give me a license, a social security number to work, a permit to work. And yeah I think those are the benefits. Yeah essentially like opportunity for work and a license and depending on the state.
FR: Great. When specifically did you get it since the last interview?
VLM: So, I can’t remember exactly. So I remember when I, I was a first year at Carolina. I think that summer after being a first year at Carolina was when they approved the program. I think it was the summer of 2012, so like June I think. And I remember being a little--I was very hesitant about applying. I didn’t feel like I needed to apply because, so the DACA program came from the DREAMers or the DREAMer movement when a lot of students came forward about their status and essentially they call it “coming out of the closet,” you know comparing it to a different movement but essentially coming out of the shadows and telling people like look I’m undocumented and I’m here in this country but I don’t want to be in the shadows anymore. Because ever since I can remember, I don’t remember a time when my parents were like you’re undocumented, or like you’re illegal, nothing like that. But I do remember--I just know that I knew. I just knew that I was undocumented—how exactly I don’t remember—but so that was something you just knew you don’t tell anyone. When I was in high school like no one knew about my status. I think different to other students that I knew who didn’t have documents I was performing well in school and I think that because I was a good student people just automatically assumed that I was also a citizen, which doesn’t really make sense in my head to me, but to people it did. No one ever questioned my status. I think it wasn’t until senior year that my status became an issue. [00:04:42] But so when I was already at UNC I didn’t feel like I needed to apply to the program because a lot of students that were pushing for the program was in order to be able to afford going to school. I think the main idea was to get a legal status and be able to afford in-state tuition. But by the time that the program passed I was already in college, I had been lucky enough to get financial help to attend school, so like I said I didn’t feel the need to do it. And I was also scared because it was like basically me coming forward to immigration telling them that I was here. And not just that but also I had to put in my parents’ information and that really made me really scared because I think my thought was like well, how do I know that they’re really not going to come one day and take me? Or like, what if in five years the program is gone and they decide to go through all those files and start deporting people from there? Because I think even though they said they’re not supposed to do that, I’m like what’s the guarantee that they’re not going to do it? So because of that I think I waited until maybe a year or so before I actually applied. I think I applied the following year or so. So yeah I think I can’t remember the question anymore.
FR: No you did. I just asked you about when you got it, but you covered that pretty well. So in the first interview, you emphasized the importance of your family in your daily life and in getting through challenges that you faced in the first year of college. So how did your family impact your decision to apply for DACA?
VLM: Yeah, well they definitely played a huge role. As I mentioned I didn’t want to do it. But then in the summer of I guess 2013, so the following summer -- [00:06:41] my dad had a car accident, and my dad is a construction worker and he needs his car to get to work. So he was going to work that morning, and he was at a stoplight. The stoplight turned green, so he went forward. But a car coming from the other side didn’t stop at the red light, so he hit my dad, and his car was completely destroyed. Luckily he was totally fine, nothing happened to him, which was almost a miracle I think compared to how the car ended up. But so in North Carolina, if you don’t have a social security or a state I.D., you can’t get a license, which means you can’t get a registration for a license plate for a car. So it was like all those things that trickled down. So when my dad got in the car accident, he didn’t have a car anymore, which meant he needed a new one to get to work, but he didn’t have a license because of his immigration status. So at the time I remember him trying to figure out what are we going to do because I need a car to get to work, but I can’t get a registration. Like we could buy a car but we couldn’t get a registration because of--he didn’t have the documents for it. So the options then were for him to try to find someone that could perhaps register the car under their name, so essentially it would be under someone’s name but he would use the car. Or he was also thinking of traveling to a different state. I think he was thinking of going all the way to Washington State, because over there even if you didn’t have a license you could still get the registration for the car. So you still get a license plate because he needed the license plate for the car. But then I guess at that time I figured if I apply to DACA I could get a license, and if I could get a license, my dad could get the registration for his car. So even though I think I was afraid of doing it, I remember talking with my parents and telling them this is the best solution that we have because I didn’t want my dad going so far. I also I think I was scared of someone maybe just taking his money and promising that they would get the license plate for the car here in North Carolina and then not doing it, because we had heard of people doing that already. So we decided that I was going to apply for DACA. It actually took a while for me to get the paperwork and everything. Like a couple of months. Which in between my dad was, he was getting rides from other people. It was a hard time, but we managed through, and then eventually I remember even when I had to--like I got the permit, which was really exciting, but then I had to apply to get my license because I didn’t even know how to drive [Laughter]. So I had to learn how to drive too while I was waiting for the permit. So then I remember when I went to get my license I super scared, because I was scared I was not going to get it, and then that was going to be another issue. But I was lucky. I passed the driving test. I passed the other test, so I was able to get my license, and then within days I think were able to get my dad’s license registration and everything figured out. So that was that pushing factor that really pushed me to want to go and just apply for DACA even though I had some fears before.
FR: Wow, that’s a powerful story. You must’ve been--you must’ve felt a lot of pressure, almost like your family situation was relying on you in this way. And even though it wasn’t something you wanted to do originally.
VLM: Exactly. I think if it hadn’t been for that, I don’t think I would’ve applied. Like I said, I really don’t feel like I had the need for it, which I think I’m lucky for that. I was already on campus. I didn’t really need to drive. I wasn’t working because I wanted to focus on school to keep my scholarship, so there was really no need, but then you know things happen, and it just felt like it was the best solution. And it took a while to go through the whole process. It was also money. The first time that I applied it was almost five hundred dollars for just the application, and then it was five hundred dollars for the lawyer that helped. [00:11:15] So it was a total of a thousand dollars to get it, which was really frustrating too, because I remember I filled out all the paperwork, I looked for all of the different papers that they--like you need to fulfill certain requirements to be approved for the program. So I found all the documents that I needed. I feel like I did everything by myself, and then we went to a lawyer because I was afraid that if--because if you don’t get approved you can’t reapply. So I was really scared that I would apply and then for like a dumb mistake I’m not going to get it. But when I went to the lawyer, the lawyer was just like oh, everything looks great. You filled out everything well. They literally just put dividers in my papers to separate, and we paid five hundred dollars. So it was really frustrating because of that, because I just felt like that was something I could’ve done myself. But I think also there was so much like--I don’t know the word to use--I don’t know like tension or uncertainty with this program, that it was always like just like this one opportunity that we have to take and you have to be super careful. Because if you make one mistake they could deny it or you can you know like get yourself in more trouble. Because also a lot of people were like if you don’t have a clean record don’t even apply like immigration is going to come and get you. But I had a clean record so I wasn’t worried about that, but it just felt a lot of pressure as you mentioned. So that’s why we relied on lawyers and then wasted that money essentially.
FR: Oh my goodness.
VLM: But, at least I got [Laughter] the permit so that was nice.
FR: Good for you. You mentioned that at first--so you felt like you didn’t need it and you were hesitant to apply, but -- [00:13:06] have you found, now that you do have it--are there benefits that you didn’t expect that you’re like--other than of course being able to get your dad a car for work--have you been like wow I’m glad I did this? What kind of--are there any moments like that, where unexpected benefits?
VLM: Yeah. I think, this may be silly but, it’s so convenient to be able to drive [Laughter], and to--so in my hometown from where--I’m from Durham, North--well I was not born there, but I’ve lived in Durham, North Carolina for a long time so I call it home. And in Durham there has been a lot of checkpoints very constantly. Like there’s a lot of checkpoints and it’s not--it’s very known that people get--like you get tickets if you don’t have a license obviously, but sometimes people get taken to jail if you are driving and it’s not been their first time that they get you without a license. And it’s--like if you don’t have a license at all and you can’t get a license, chances are they’re going to catch you more than once. So, first I wouldn’t drive. But then I think one of the things that I’ve enjoyed is like I learned how to drive, and when I’m home I’m not scared of just having to look out, or like having to look up if they’re sending messages like saying oh there’s a checkpoint here or a checkpoint there like that’s something that I don’t have to worry about, which I think--it’s really--it’s great. Like it’s something that I don’t think I had considered before when I didn’t want to apply. But now, even for example, if I’m with--if I go home and we’re going somewhere my parents already know I’m driving, they’re not driving. Because it’s like why are we going to risk it when I can drive for us? Or like if we go to the store or anything because it’s so -- [00:14:58] I recall one time in the neighborhood that I used to live, literally outside of our neighborhood they put a checkpoint. And if you look at the demographics it’s really frustrating because I think it--it was--it’s on purpose. They say it’s not on purpose but it’s on purpose that they put it there like it’s strategic. And I remember we--I was with my parents and my brother and we were coming--I don’t know where we were coming from--but it was a Sunday afternoon and we were coming back home, like we were in a great mood. I remember us being, you know like, fine and you see all the police cars. And at that moment my mom--like I remember her face just like--it almost--like her skin was just white of the fear in her. And she was like--my dad was driving, and she was like you’re going to get a ticket. I hope they don’t say anything. What are we going to do? And my dad is always like well don’t worry; it’s just a ticket. We’re going to pay it--like I’m going to pay it. I’m going to go to court if I need to and it’s going to be fine. But I think my mom that fear of him having to go to the authorities--something like that--it really gets to her. And luckily that time my dad--because he had a license before because he has been here a long time, so he had a license before when you could get a license, but it expired like I don’t know how many years ago. But he still has it with him. So he showed it to the officer, and the officer--he actually said--like he was like oh just make sure to get this renewed.
FR: Wow.
VLM: And I know that he was probably not supposed to do that, and he probably knew why my dad didn’t have his license. But I just remember I--first I think of my mom and just how all the emotions that she felt at the moment. And also like I was super relieved you know--felt happy that there’s people like that officer that just let us go that time. But I think that’s a situation that I don’t have to worry about personally because even if there’s a checkpoint I’m like look at my license I have one. So it’s definitely one of the things that I didn’t realize. I think also something else with an employer’s permit that I didn’t have before. I have now --[00:17:09] I can apply to a lot more jobs than I did before. And I think before my mentality was like I’ve figured it out until now I’m going to keep figuring it out, like it will be fine. But now I think I realize that it’s--it’s a lot easier in different ways. So for example, even after for graduation, the program that I applied to has been because I have DACA. So they’re able to take DACA recipients, but bef--if I didn’t have anything I wouldn’t be able to apply. So just little things like that that I guess then I didn’t think of but now I realize.
FR: Yeah. Great. Do you have friends or family members that have also gone through the process? Are you’re--would you say that your closest friends--?
VLM: I actually so--my best friend she also did DACA as well, and I think our journeys have been very different, especially because of our educational journeys. But she also has DACA and I think the first thing that I always think of is just the driving and being able to drive. It’s really easy. Recently we just submitted the application for my brother, so hopefully we’ll be getting good news soon. But yeah he--he’s really excited too because he’s going to get to drive, because up until now we were like no you’re not driving. But so he’s excited about that as well.
FR: So, individuals who are granted this status, like you said--it’s a--like it’s legal for them to work. Do you work with it? Have you had--()? [Laughter] Yeah I guess do you work and if so can you explain?
VLM: Yeah. I’ve been—I’ve had opportunity to work like small jobs here and there with, especially within the school. I know like for example I worked with a professor just translating a lot of terms for a project research project that she was doing. I currently again work with an organization that does recruitment on campus, and I think the only reasons is because I have the employer’s permit. A lot of times I’ve--I’ve also experienced that people don’t really understand what it means. Like I show them my card that has the deferred action--or not deferred action but like my employment card. Or like I tell them oh I’m a DACA recipient, and they look at me very confused. Because I think especially within--one because--I mean it’s not even North Carolina but I guess of the institution I’m in perhaps, not a lot of students are in the same situation as me. We’re in a very big campus and I think I know like ten people and that’s all. So people often don’t really know how to help us navigate the system because they’ve never encountered someone in our situation, which that has been interesting because--sometimes I don’t even know. I’m like you’re supposed to know, I don’t know how to do this financial thing and stuff. But a lot of people are like learn as we go, so we learn together as they’re helping me navigate the systems of like how are we going to put you in the payroll because you don’t fit any of this things? Or like you fit this but you don’t fit this so how are we going to make this work? So I think that has been interesting also, just navigating those systems.
FR: Cool. So also in the first interview, you mentioned that you would love to travel abroad. Have you traveled outside--have you been able to leave the country under DACA?
VLM: So the hope is [Laughter] that soon I will. So up to now I have not. That’s definitely something that’s been on my mind. That’s something I’ve been wanting to do. [00:21:09] But so with DACA there’s only three different reasons of why you can travel abroad with DACA: under educational purposes; for employers or for your job; or for humanitarian reasons. Usually a lot of people that travel abroad it is for humanitarian reasons, because it’s a lot more flexible. But up to this point, I personally haven’t came across a reason of why I’ve had to travel because of humanitarian reasons. So right now I’m actually in a course where for during our spring break we would travel to Mexico. So I’m definitely excited because that was kind of like the opportunity. I really felt--I’m a senior right now so I really felt like that wasn’t going to happen anymore, which I had kind of given up on the idea of studying abroad per say during school. But it was really cool that I was able to be involved in this class this course and have now that opportunity. I submitted my paperwork about a month and a half ago, maybe two months. And unfortunately I have not heard back from immigration yet, which is definitely making me stressful [Laughter]. Because without the permit I can’t leave the country, and our break is really close to this date. And I’ve called and essentially all they say is you just have to wait, like you just have to wait and wait, and I’m just like I’m running out of time like I really want to know. So it’s been really frustrating I think navigating that, because it’s just money that’s being invested and time is going, and I still don’t have an answer. And essentially the deadline that they have to respond to my request is March eight, and I think we’re supposed to leave March eleventh. So if I don’t hear back by the deadline that they have, I really don’t know what I’m supposed to do within those days. So that’s definitely something that’s adding some stress into my life right, because it’s just like I said so much uncertainty.
FR: That’s a wow--that’s a tough situation. So as a whole, what emotions would you say that you associate with DACA? Does it make you--like if you hear that, do you feel--what do you feel? Was the first thing that comes to your mind the stress? Or maybe the relief that you can drive? Or like maybe a mixture of both [Laughter]? What you would you say? How would you describe it?
VLM: I think I definitely have a love-hate relationship. I think of all the benefits that I’ve had now. And I’m very thankful--like I’m very thankful for those. Now also I’ve mentioned like I’ve realized my life would be very different and my opportunities would be very different if I didn’t have DACA. [00:24:15] But I think there’s also a lot of moments where I have been frustrated because I feel--I feel this is like the government putting a Band-Aid on a bigger issue instead of actually finding a solution for the issue if that makes any sense. I--like I said I think the DREAMer movement, we were trying to push for a change, like for a real change. And even though I understand the politics, there’s tons of politics behind it, but it was just kind of like let me throw this at you so you can be quiet and calm down and say that we gave you something. So I think I get hose feelings as well. So even though I realize how much it has benefited me, I also feel like it’s not enough, and I don’t want to settle at a point that I’m just thinking about the good things about it, and thinking of like oh I’m so lucky and I’m so--like I’m so glad that the government did this for us, because at the same time--I don’t know--people may not agree, but I feel like I also deserve--like I know when I entered this country it was not through a legal means, but it wasn’t my decision. And I think that just is like other even citizens I don’t they would be punished--the children would not be punished for something their parents did. Like if a parent goes and kills someone, you’re not going to put their children in jail. And I feel like a lot of times that’s how they do to us, because I came in when I was nine years old. I couldn’t tell my mom no mom I’m not going with you. You go to the United States with my dad, like what am I going to do? I’m going to go with my mom because I wanted to see my dad. So I just feel like sometimes I’m punished, and a lot of us are punished for something that we didn’t choose. And people ask me like where are you from? Or like where is home for you? I think Durham, North Carolina! I don’t think Mexico. So it just doesn’t make sense to me. And I think sometimes DACA--like I’m grateful for it but I don’t want to settle. In my license for example--[00:26:28] on the license there’s a line that says no legal status in red letters. And every time that I give it, whether this is like I’m going out with my friends and they ask me for my I.D.--when I give it to people, I always get that feeling of like what are they going to think? Or like, what is going through their head right now? They’re probably doubt--like wondering why does it have those red letters. And they’re probably not going to ask me, but that’s something that they’re thinking, and it makes me very self-conscious. And I think like you know, most people probably don’t have to worry about that. But that’s real, when I go to someone and give them my I.D. it makes me anxious because I’m just like I don’t know. Maybe they’re going to be like oh that’s fake. Why does have those letters--? I don’t know. But I think yeah, so I have mixed emotions about it. I think it could be better [Laughter].
FR: That was a great answer. So I guess I’ll--this might be our last question but--so you know, we are in the midst of a presidential campaign for this country, and--[00:27:37] some of the candidates just outright stated that they--if they’re elected president, day one, they will get rid of the program. How would that affect you? What happens if it just goes away?
VLM: You know that’s something I wonder. I think for example, like I wonder with like with my car, my dad’s car. What’s going to happen there? Will they take the license plates because I don’t have a license? Or maybe if I have to renew or like I can’t do that anymore? I think that’s the first thing that comes to my mind, and then also for me for example I have a job offer for after graduation, but it’s because of DACA. So if I don’t have DACA then I don’t have a job, which is definitely--I don’t know--it’s frustrating because there’s so much uncertainty like how am I going to plan for that [Laughter]? Because I don’t know. And then I think internally I also think of--if they take away the program, what is immigration going to do with all of those names and all of those addresses and all of that people? I think I would definitely live in fear of me and my family of one day them knocking the door. And, like how can you deny if they have any paperwork? Like I’m stating that I don’t--I’m not--I don’t have any legal status, you know? So yeah it would definitely be very scary, it would be very scary if that was the case.
FR: Yeah. So would you say that you think--do you think about the future a lot? Or do you find yourself--do you find yourself stressing out about all of those things? Or do you feel like you’re able to go day to day and just not--and are you able--how much do you think about the future and that kind of thing?
VLM: I think I’ve almost this mechanism of like I’m just going to ignore it for now, because if I think about it too much, it really stresses me out. It really makes me almost anxious about it. I’m really hopeful that this country would not want the leadership of individuals that have so much hate and--. It has blown my mind to see how many people support some ideas. Like I’m just blown away at how far some of those candidates have made it. I mean it’s scary because I’m like people supported that [Laughter]. But yeah I think I just try to avoid to think about it now. Obviously I follow, try to follow the news and see how things are going, but I’m like I’m going to try not to worry about it. I think also--I also think of the people and the power that there is within people. And I think if something like that was to go away, I think there would be major movement in the country and people would push. And so I think that also just keeps me--keeps me want to go on--like you know it’s ok it’s going to be fine. Like worst comes to worst we’re going to make things happen. So I think I see hope there [Laughter].
FR: That’s awesome. Do you have anything else that you want to add?
VLM: No, I think we’re good. [Laughter]
FR: Awesome. Alright, well thanks so much for doing this interview.
VLM: No problem, thank you.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Estudiantes
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Vianey Lemus Martínez es una estudiante de pregrado de cuarto año en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill, que está estudiando Español. Creció en Tulancingo, en Hidalgo, en México, hasta que tenía nueve años, cuando ella y su familia se mudaron a Durham en Carolina del Norte donde han vivido desde entonces. Lemus Martínez estaba indecisa sobre solicitar estatus legal bajo el programa de Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA, por sus siglas en inglés) que fue creado en 2012. Sin embargo, cuando su padre, un obrero de la construcción, sufrió un accidente de automóvil que lo dejó sin coche, Lemus Martínez solicitó el estatus y obtuvo una licencia de conducir que le permitió a su familia obtener un coche. Con DACA, Lemus Martínez ha disfrutado de la capacidad de conducir y también de más oportunidades de empleo. Ella espera viajar a México como parte de una experiencia educativa. No obstante, ella siente que DACA es una solución insuficiente al problema de la inmigración en los Estados Unidos. El futuro incierto con frecuencia hace que Lemus Martínez se sienta ansiosa, pero ella encuentra consuelo en el poder que la gente tiene para superar los desafíos que vengan.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Vianey Lemus Martínez por Frances Reuland, 26 Febrero 2016, R-0857, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Familia; Ciudadanía e inmigración; Asuntos legales; Movimiento de jóvenes 'Soñadores' y Acción Diferida
Es: Transcripción
[00:00:07] Frances Reuland: Ok. My name is Frances Reuland. It is February 26th, 2016. This interview is taking place at UNC-Chapel Hill in Davis Library, and it is approximately 6:30 pm. I will let my interviewee state her name and the consent to record this interview.
Vianey Lemus Martinez: My name is Vianey Lemus Martinez and you have all my consent to record the interview.
FR: Great. So I just wanted to start off by stating that Vianey was interviewed three years ago, or almost three years ago, in April of 2013 by Antonio de Jesus Alanís, and that interview can be found on the Nuevas Raíces website. That interview had more of a focus on education, but now that Vianey is here with us again, I’m going to ask her about her experience with DACA because since then she has applied and received deferred action status. So with that yeah I’m just going to start. So just to start off, can you briefly explain what that means? Like what is DACA? I know you can Google it [Laughter], but it might just be helpful to just hear--(Vianey interjects “yeah”) your interpretation of it.
VLM: Yeah, so I guess yeah I will just tell you my understanding of it but I think usually the way I think of DACA. It’s, it’s complicated because there are all these terms. [00:01:51] So I think of it as a status. But it’s a no-lawful status so I don’t have any kind of legal status in the country, but it’s essentially me telling the government I’m here in the U.S. without any documentation but look at all of these different requirements that I can fulfill because I’ve been here so long. And I think they basically say like OK since I know you’re here we’re going to let you be in the country for two years. The promise in a way is that I won’t get deported, and they will give me a license, a social security number to work, a permit to work. And yeah I think those are the benefits. Yeah essentially like opportunity for work and a license and depending on the state.
FR: Great. When specifically did you get it since the last interview?
VLM: So, I can’t remember exactly. So I remember when I, I was a first year at Carolina. I think that summer after being a first year at Carolina was when they approved the program. I think it was the summer of 2012, so like June I think. And I remember being a little--I was very hesitant about applying. I didn’t feel like I needed to apply because, so the DACA program came from the DREAMers or the DREAMer movement when a lot of students came forward about their status and essentially they call it “coming out of the closet,” you know comparing it to a different movement but essentially coming out of the shadows and telling people like look I’m undocumented and I’m here in this country but I don’t want to be in the shadows anymore. Because ever since I can remember, I don’t remember a time when my parents were like you’re undocumented, or like you’re illegal, nothing like that. But I do remember--I just know that I knew. I just knew that I was undocumented—how exactly I don’t remember—but so that was something you just knew you don’t tell anyone. When I was in high school like no one knew about my status. I think different to other students that I knew who didn’t have documents I was performing well in school and I think that because I was a good student people just automatically assumed that I was also a citizen, which doesn’t really make sense in my head to me, but to people it did. No one ever questioned my status. I think it wasn’t until senior year that my status became an issue. [00:04:42] But so when I was already at UNC I didn’t feel like I needed to apply to the program because a lot of students that were pushing for the program was in order to be able to afford going to school. I think the main idea was to get a legal status and be able to afford in-state tuition. But by the time that the program passed I was already in college, I had been lucky enough to get financial help to attend school, so like I said I didn’t feel the need to do it. And I was also scared because it was like basically me coming forward to immigration telling them that I was here. And not just that but also I had to put in my parents’ information and that really made me really scared because I think my thought was like well, how do I know that they’re really not going to come one day and take me? Or like, what if in five years the program is gone and they decide to go through all those files and start deporting people from there? Because I think even though they said they’re not supposed to do that, I’m like what’s the guarantee that they’re not going to do it? So because of that I think I waited until maybe a year or so before I actually applied. I think I applied the following year or so. So yeah I think I can’t remember the question anymore.
FR: No you did. I just asked you about when you got it, but you covered that pretty well. So in the first interview, you emphasized the importance of your family in your daily life and in getting through challenges that you faced in the first year of college. So how did your family impact your decision to apply for DACA?
VLM: Yeah, well they definitely played a huge role. As I mentioned I didn’t want to do it. But then in the summer of I guess 2013, so the following summer -- [00:06:41] my dad had a car accident, and my dad is a construction worker and he needs his car to get to work. So he was going to work that morning, and he was at a stoplight. The stoplight turned green, so he went forward. But a car coming from the other side didn’t stop at the red light, so he hit my dad, and his car was completely destroyed. Luckily he was totally fine, nothing happened to him, which was almost a miracle I think compared to how the car ended up. But so in North Carolina, if you don’t have a social security or a state I.D., you can’t get a license, which means you can’t get a registration for a license plate for a car. So it was like all those things that trickled down. So when my dad got in the car accident, he didn’t have a car anymore, which meant he needed a new one to get to work, but he didn’t have a license because of his immigration status. So at the time I remember him trying to figure out what are we going to do because I need a car to get to work, but I can’t get a registration. Like we could buy a car but we couldn’t get a registration because of--he didn’t have the documents for it. So the options then were for him to try to find someone that could perhaps register the car under their name, so essentially it would be under someone’s name but he would use the car. Or he was also thinking of traveling to a different state. I think he was thinking of going all the way to Washington State, because over there even if you didn’t have a license you could still get the registration for the car. So you still get a license plate because he needed the license plate for the car. But then I guess at that time I figured if I apply to DACA I could get a license, and if I could get a license, my dad could get the registration for his car. So even though I think I was afraid of doing it, I remember talking with my parents and telling them this is the best solution that we have because I didn’t want my dad going so far. I also I think I was scared of someone maybe just taking his money and promising that they would get the license plate for the car here in North Carolina and then not doing it, because we had heard of people doing that already. So we decided that I was going to apply for DACA. It actually took a while for me to get the paperwork and everything. Like a couple of months. Which in between my dad was, he was getting rides from other people. It was a hard time, but we managed through, and then eventually I remember even when I had to--like I got the permit, which was really exciting, but then I had to apply to get my license because I didn’t even know how to drive [Laughter]. So I had to learn how to drive too while I was waiting for the permit. So then I remember when I went to get my license I super scared, because I was scared I was not going to get it, and then that was going to be another issue. But I was lucky. I passed the driving test. I passed the other test, so I was able to get my license, and then within days I think were able to get my dad’s license registration and everything figured out. So that was that pushing factor that really pushed me to want to go and just apply for DACA even though I had some fears before.
FR: Wow, that’s a powerful story. You must’ve been--you must’ve felt a lot of pressure, almost like your family situation was relying on you in this way. And even though it wasn’t something you wanted to do originally.
VLM: Exactly. I think if it hadn’t been for that, I don’t think I would’ve applied. Like I said, I really don’t feel like I had the need for it, which I think I’m lucky for that. I was already on campus. I didn’t really need to drive. I wasn’t working because I wanted to focus on school to keep my scholarship, so there was really no need, but then you know things happen, and it just felt like it was the best solution. And it took a while to go through the whole process. It was also money. The first time that I applied it was almost five hundred dollars for just the application, and then it was five hundred dollars for the lawyer that helped. [00:11:15] So it was a total of a thousand dollars to get it, which was really frustrating too, because I remember I filled out all the paperwork, I looked for all of the different papers that they--like you need to fulfill certain requirements to be approved for the program. So I found all the documents that I needed. I feel like I did everything by myself, and then we went to a lawyer because I was afraid that if--because if you don’t get approved you can’t reapply. So I was really scared that I would apply and then for like a dumb mistake I’m not going to get it. But when I went to the lawyer, the lawyer was just like oh, everything looks great. You filled out everything well. They literally just put dividers in my papers to separate, and we paid five hundred dollars. So it was really frustrating because of that, because I just felt like that was something I could’ve done myself. But I think also there was so much like--I don’t know the word to use--I don’t know like tension or uncertainty with this program, that it was always like just like this one opportunity that we have to take and you have to be super careful. Because if you make one mistake they could deny it or you can you know like get yourself in more trouble. Because also a lot of people were like if you don’t have a clean record don’t even apply like immigration is going to come and get you. But I had a clean record so I wasn’t worried about that, but it just felt a lot of pressure as you mentioned. So that’s why we relied on lawyers and then wasted that money essentially.
FR: Oh my goodness.
VLM: But, at least I got [Laughter] the permit so that was nice.
FR: Good for you. You mentioned that at first--so you felt like you didn’t need it and you were hesitant to apply, but -- [00:13:06] have you found, now that you do have it--are there benefits that you didn’t expect that you’re like--other than of course being able to get your dad a car for work--have you been like wow I’m glad I did this? What kind of--are there any moments like that, where unexpected benefits?
VLM: Yeah. I think, this may be silly but, it’s so convenient to be able to drive [Laughter], and to--so in my hometown from where--I’m from Durham, North--well I was not born there, but I’ve lived in Durham, North Carolina for a long time so I call it home. And in Durham there has been a lot of checkpoints very constantly. Like there’s a lot of checkpoints and it’s not--it’s very known that people get--like you get tickets if you don’t have a license obviously, but sometimes people get taken to jail if you are driving and it’s not been their first time that they get you without a license. And it’s--like if you don’t have a license at all and you can’t get a license, chances are they’re going to catch you more than once. So, first I wouldn’t drive. But then I think one of the things that I’ve enjoyed is like I learned how to drive, and when I’m home I’m not scared of just having to look out, or like having to look up if they’re sending messages like saying oh there’s a checkpoint here or a checkpoint there like that’s something that I don’t have to worry about, which I think--it’s really--it’s great. Like it’s something that I don’t think I had considered before when I didn’t want to apply. But now, even for example, if I’m with--if I go home and we’re going somewhere my parents already know I’m driving, they’re not driving. Because it’s like why are we going to risk it when I can drive for us? Or like if we go to the store or anything because it’s so -- [00:14:58] I recall one time in the neighborhood that I used to live, literally outside of our neighborhood they put a checkpoint. And if you look at the demographics it’s really frustrating because I think it--it was--it’s on purpose. They say it’s not on purpose but it’s on purpose that they put it there like it’s strategic. And I remember we--I was with my parents and my brother and we were coming--I don’t know where we were coming from--but it was a Sunday afternoon and we were coming back home, like we were in a great mood. I remember us being, you know like, fine and you see all the police cars. And at that moment my mom--like I remember her face just like--it almost--like her skin was just white of the fear in her. And she was like--my dad was driving, and she was like you’re going to get a ticket. I hope they don’t say anything. What are we going to do? And my dad is always like well don’t worry; it’s just a ticket. We’re going to pay it--like I’m going to pay it. I’m going to go to court if I need to and it’s going to be fine. But I think my mom that fear of him having to go to the authorities--something like that--it really gets to her. And luckily that time my dad--because he had a license before because he has been here a long time, so he had a license before when you could get a license, but it expired like I don’t know how many years ago. But he still has it with him. So he showed it to the officer, and the officer--he actually said--like he was like oh just make sure to get this renewed.
FR: Wow.
VLM: And I know that he was probably not supposed to do that, and he probably knew why my dad didn’t have his license. But I just remember I--first I think of my mom and just how all the emotions that she felt at the moment. And also like I was super relieved you know--felt happy that there’s people like that officer that just let us go that time. But I think that’s a situation that I don’t have to worry about personally because even if there’s a checkpoint I’m like look at my license I have one. So it’s definitely one of the things that I didn’t realize. I think also something else with an employer’s permit that I didn’t have before. I have now --[00:17:09] I can apply to a lot more jobs than I did before. And I think before my mentality was like I’ve figured it out until now I’m going to keep figuring it out, like it will be fine. But now I think I realize that it’s--it’s a lot easier in different ways. So for example, even after for graduation, the program that I applied to has been because I have DACA. So they’re able to take DACA recipients, but bef--if I didn’t have anything I wouldn’t be able to apply. So just little things like that that I guess then I didn’t think of but now I realize.
FR: Yeah. Great. Do you have friends or family members that have also gone through the process? Are you’re--would you say that your closest friends--?
VLM: I actually so--my best friend she also did DACA as well, and I think our journeys have been very different, especially because of our educational journeys. But she also has DACA and I think the first thing that I always think of is just the driving and being able to drive. It’s really easy. Recently we just submitted the application for my brother, so hopefully we’ll be getting good news soon. But yeah he--he’s really excited too because he’s going to get to drive, because up until now we were like no you’re not driving. But so he’s excited about that as well.
FR: So, individuals who are granted this status, like you said--it’s a--like it’s legal for them to work. Do you work with it? Have you had--()? [Laughter] Yeah I guess do you work and if so can you explain?
VLM: Yeah. I’ve been—I’ve had opportunity to work like small jobs here and there with, especially within the school. I know like for example I worked with a professor just translating a lot of terms for a project research project that she was doing. I currently again work with an organization that does recruitment on campus, and I think the only reasons is because I have the employer’s permit. A lot of times I’ve--I’ve also experienced that people don’t really understand what it means. Like I show them my card that has the deferred action--or not deferred action but like my employment card. Or like I tell them oh I’m a DACA recipient, and they look at me very confused. Because I think especially within--one because--I mean it’s not even North Carolina but I guess of the institution I’m in perhaps, not a lot of students are in the same situation as me. We’re in a very big campus and I think I know like ten people and that’s all. So people often don’t really know how to help us navigate the system because they’ve never encountered someone in our situation, which that has been interesting because--sometimes I don’t even know. I’m like you’re supposed to know, I don’t know how to do this financial thing and stuff. But a lot of people are like learn as we go, so we learn together as they’re helping me navigate the systems of like how are we going to put you in the payroll because you don’t fit any of this things? Or like you fit this but you don’t fit this so how are we going to make this work? So I think that has been interesting also, just navigating those systems.
FR: Cool. So also in the first interview, you mentioned that you would love to travel abroad. Have you traveled outside--have you been able to leave the country under DACA?
VLM: So the hope is [Laughter] that soon I will. So up to now I have not. That’s definitely something that’s been on my mind. That’s something I’ve been wanting to do. [00:21:09] But so with DACA there’s only three different reasons of why you can travel abroad with DACA: under educational purposes; for employers or for your job; or for humanitarian reasons. Usually a lot of people that travel abroad it is for humanitarian reasons, because it’s a lot more flexible. But up to this point, I personally haven’t came across a reason of why I’ve had to travel because of humanitarian reasons. So right now I’m actually in a course where for during our spring break we would travel to Mexico. So I’m definitely excited because that was kind of like the opportunity. I really felt--I’m a senior right now so I really felt like that wasn’t going to happen anymore, which I had kind of given up on the idea of studying abroad per say during school. But it was really cool that I was able to be involved in this class this course and have now that opportunity. I submitted my paperwork about a month and a half ago, maybe two months. And unfortunately I have not heard back from immigration yet, which is definitely making me stressful [Laughter]. Because without the permit I can’t leave the country, and our break is really close to this date. And I’ve called and essentially all they say is you just have to wait, like you just have to wait and wait, and I’m just like I’m running out of time like I really want to know. So it’s been really frustrating I think navigating that, because it’s just money that’s being invested and time is going, and I still don’t have an answer. And essentially the deadline that they have to respond to my request is March eight, and I think we’re supposed to leave March eleventh. So if I don’t hear back by the deadline that they have, I really don’t know what I’m supposed to do within those days. So that’s definitely something that’s adding some stress into my life right, because it’s just like I said so much uncertainty.
FR: That’s a wow--that’s a tough situation. So as a whole, what emotions would you say that you associate with DACA? Does it make you--like if you hear that, do you feel--what do you feel? Was the first thing that comes to your mind the stress? Or maybe the relief that you can drive? Or like maybe a mixture of both [Laughter]? What you would you say? How would you describe it?
VLM: I think I definitely have a love-hate relationship. I think of all the benefits that I’ve had now. And I’m very thankful--like I’m very thankful for those. Now also I’ve mentioned like I’ve realized my life would be very different and my opportunities would be very different if I didn’t have DACA. [00:24:15] But I think there’s also a lot of moments where I have been frustrated because I feel--I feel this is like the government putting a Band-Aid on a bigger issue instead of actually finding a solution for the issue if that makes any sense. I--like I said I think the DREAMer movement, we were trying to push for a change, like for a real change. And even though I understand the politics, there’s tons of politics behind it, but it was just kind of like let me throw this at you so you can be quiet and calm down and say that we gave you something. So I think I get hose feelings as well. So even though I realize how much it has benefited me, I also feel like it’s not enough, and I don’t want to settle at a point that I’m just thinking about the good things about it, and thinking of like oh I’m so lucky and I’m so--like I’m so glad that the government did this for us, because at the same time--I don’t know--people may not agree, but I feel like I also deserve--like I know when I entered this country it was not through a legal means, but it wasn’t my decision. And I think that just is like other even citizens I don’t they would be punished--the children would not be punished for something their parents did. Like if a parent goes and kills someone, you’re not going to put their children in jail. And I feel like a lot of times that’s how they do to us, because I came in when I was nine years old. I couldn’t tell my mom no mom I’m not going with you. You go to the United States with my dad, like what am I going to do? I’m going to go with my mom because I wanted to see my dad. So I just feel like sometimes I’m punished, and a lot of us are punished for something that we didn’t choose. And people ask me like where are you from? Or like where is home for you? I think Durham, North Carolina! I don’t think Mexico. So it just doesn’t make sense to me. And I think sometimes DACA--like I’m grateful for it but I don’t want to settle. In my license for example--[00:26:28] on the license there’s a line that says no legal status in red letters. And every time that I give it, whether this is like I’m going out with my friends and they ask me for my I.D.--when I give it to people, I always get that feeling of like what are they going to think? Or like, what is going through their head right now? They’re probably doubt--like wondering why does it have those red letters. And they’re probably not going to ask me, but that’s something that they’re thinking, and it makes me very self-conscious. And I think like you know, most people probably don’t have to worry about that. But that’s real, when I go to someone and give them my I.D. it makes me anxious because I’m just like I don’t know. Maybe they’re going to be like oh that’s fake. Why does have those letters--? I don’t know. But I think yeah, so I have mixed emotions about it. I think it could be better [Laughter].
FR: That was a great answer. So I guess I’ll--this might be our last question but--so you know, we are in the midst of a presidential campaign for this country, and--[00:27:37] some of the candidates just outright stated that they--if they’re elected president, day one, they will get rid of the program. How would that affect you? What happens if it just goes away?
VLM: You know that’s something I wonder. I think for example, like I wonder with like with my car, my dad’s car. What’s going to happen there? Will they take the license plates because I don’t have a license? Or maybe if I have to renew or like I can’t do that anymore? I think that’s the first thing that comes to my mind, and then also for me for example I have a job offer for after graduation, but it’s because of DACA. So if I don’t have DACA then I don’t have a job, which is definitely--I don’t know--it’s frustrating because there’s so much uncertainty like how am I going to plan for that [Laughter]? Because I don’t know. And then I think internally I also think of--if they take away the program, what is immigration going to do with all of those names and all of those addresses and all of that people? I think I would definitely live in fear of me and my family of one day them knocking the door. And, like how can you deny if they have any paperwork? Like I’m stating that I don’t--I’m not--I don’t have any legal status, you know? So yeah it would definitely be very scary, it would be very scary if that was the case.
FR: Yeah. So would you say that you think--do you think about the future a lot? Or do you find yourself--do you find yourself stressing out about all of those things? Or do you feel like you’re able to go day to day and just not--and are you able--how much do you think about the future and that kind of thing?
VLM: I think I’ve almost this mechanism of like I’m just going to ignore it for now, because if I think about it too much, it really stresses me out. It really makes me almost anxious about it. I’m really hopeful that this country would not want the leadership of individuals that have so much hate and--. It has blown my mind to see how many people support some ideas. Like I’m just blown away at how far some of those candidates have made it. I mean it’s scary because I’m like people supported that [Laughter]. But yeah I think I just try to avoid to think about it now. Obviously I follow, try to follow the news and see how things are going, but I’m like I’m going to try not to worry about it. I think also--I also think of the people and the power that there is within people. And I think if something like that was to go away, I think there would be major movement in the country and people would push. And so I think that also just keeps me--keeps me want to go on--like you know it’s ok it’s going to be fine. Like worst comes to worst we’re going to make things happen. So I think I see hope there [Laughter].
FR: That’s awesome. Do you have anything else that you want to add?
VLM: No, I think we’re good. [Laughter]
FR: Awesome. Alright, well thanks so much for doing this interview.
VLM: No problem, thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-0857 -- Martínez, Vianey Lemus.
Description
An account of the resource
Vianey Lemus Martinez is a fourth year undergraduate at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill studying Spanish. She grew up in Tulancingo, Hidalgo in Mexico until age nine when she and her family moved to Durham, North Carolina where they have lived ever since. Lemus Martinez was hesitant to apply for a legal status under the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program that began in 2012. However, after her father, a construction worker, was in a car accident that left him car-less, Lemus Martinez applied for the status and obtained a driver’s license, allowing her family to get a car. With DACA, Lemus Martinez has enjoyed benefits of driving and expanded employment opportunities. She hopes to travel abroad to Mexico as part of an educational experience. Nevertheless, she feels that DACA is only a short-term Band-Aid solution to larger immigration issues in the U.S. The uncertain future often leaves Lemus Martinez feeling anxious, but she finds solace in the power of the people to push through the challenges that may come.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
26 February 2016
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
R0857_Audio.mp3
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/27100">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/5cd8ede6e2445f6f4fa084809f92b2c1.mp3
3a2331702572ef3fd8bc3359d31f4065
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/2f4f0fd2375600a4f123cb188c53e127.pdf
4f6e4c14a785b46456660e7b0afa5c71
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0807
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
26 February 2015
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Correa, Daniel.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Students
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1993
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Male
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Bogota -- Colombia
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Cornelius -- Mecklenburg County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-74.072092 4.710988599999999),1993,1;POINT(-80.86007359999996 35.4868032),2006,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Acosta, Luis.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Daniel Correa is a junior transfer at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill studying Journalism. He immigrated to the United States with his parents and younger sister from Bogotá, Colombia in 2001, seeking political asylum. Correa moved to Miami at the age of eight and then to Cornelius, North Carolina when he was thirteen to finish school. He was in a special English-Spanish learning program in Miami before coming to North Carolina. Most of Daniel’s family still lives in Colombia and he discusses how close-knit they are. He also talks about how hard of a transition it was for them to emigrate. He discusses different experiences he has gone through here in the US, what forced them to seek political asylum and what it means to adapt to “American” culture.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Daniel Correa by Luis Acosta, 26 February 2015, R-0807, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/26875
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Citizenship and immigration; Migratory experience; Identity; K12 education; University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Luis Acosta: Hello this is Luis Acosta. The Date is February 26th 2015. This time is 8:56 PM. We are in Carmichael Residence Hall on the 4th floor room 448, and I am here with Daniel Correa. Hey Daniel thank you so much for being with me today. To start off can you tell me a little bit about yourself?
[00:00:34] Daniel Correa: Yeah sure. I am in the J School at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. I am studying advertising. I am also part of the UNC Act club. I live outside of Charlotte, and I am in-state, but before that I lived in Miami. I was actually born in Columbia—in Bogotá, Columbia. And yeah, I’ve been in this country since 2001. Now I’m at Carolina.
LA: So Daniel, what made you choose UNC of all places?
[00:01:12] DC: Well, UNC wasn’t my first choice. I was actually looking into the University of Florida. Initially I was first pursuing business, and the Kenan-Flagler School is one of the best schools in the Nation—in the world, if you will. So I looked into, and it was only 2 hours away from Charlotte and it had really good proximity. So yeah, why not give it a try? I applied into it-- I applied to UNC—not the business school. And yeah just by getting into it, I grew fond of UNC, and really wanted to come here. And yeah, the Journalism school is actually ranked higher than the business school, so I just decided to go with it.
LA: Daniel, you mentioned growing up in Miami, and you said you went to school in Charlotte though—or you currently live in Charlotte—can you comment or expand on that?
DC: Yeah, yeah it’s been very different, Miami is a very different place than Charlotte. When I lived in Miami, it was surprisingly, the majority of the school, like more than 80 percent were minorities. And then those, there weren’t many actual Caucasians down in Miami. The school where I grew up—where I went—and it was very different, there were many immigrants from Cuba, Colombia, Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic you know? Any country you name it. And yeah it’s a diverse place, and going from there to Charlotte is very different, where you, I was actually a minority here, where the majority is obviously Caucasian. It’s very different. Hispanics here, they are not like from South America or the Caribbean. A lot of them are from Central America or are Mexican. It’s been quite different.
LA: So how long did you stay in Miami? Like were you born there?
DC: I was born in Colombia. When I was 8 years old, the year 2001, the same year as the twin towers, that November we came to Miami, just in search of a better life—more opportunity. My parents came here to find better opportunities for me and my sister. And yeah, just a better future.
[00:03:59] LA: Was it hard working out any legal stuff when you came over? Or do you want to describe how that experience was during the time when migrating over?
DC: I was actually 8 years old, so I don’t quite remember. I do know we came here through what is called, political asylum. So, we became permanent residents for 9 10 years, and after that, they gave us the chance to become citizens.
LA: So why were you granted political asylum from Colombia. Would you mind sharing any of that with me?
[00:04:48] DC: I don’t mind sharing (laughs). My mom because she was actually a journalist for a long time in Colombia. And Columbia in the early 90s, late 80s, it was a dangerous place. Like drug campaigns, and Pablo Escobar, and many drug cartels, so my mom was a journalist at those times. One reason she told me we came to this country was because, she got a threat from the rebel forces over there (the name of the group?), and they threatened us, I guess threatened my mom, I guess it was a minor threat, but to this day, they are still in Colombia. They are not as violent as they used to be, but they still use terrorist tactics, and they kidnap important people in Colombia, and my mom didn’t want to take that risk, and yeah that was one reason why we came here. She asked for political asylum and they gave it to us, and we got to this country. Before that, my dad he actually came to the US, because my uncle was already in, in Delaware. So my dad came to the US and started working with him. And soon, the threat happened, and we decided to move over here. So yeah, that’s why we got political asylum.
LA: So how did your dad cross over since your mom was granted political asylum? It seems like your dad came in before your mom.
DC: Yeah, I am not really sure, I don’t know how my dad did it, and I think he did it the same way. Because he came here, and then a year later we stayed. I thought it was a workers visa, but never went back—actually he did go back to Colombia—so think he filed for that before us, so he got here, and I think he was political asylum as well.
LA: What occupation did your dad do back in Colombia?
DC: My dad he worked for banks in Colombia. Yeah, he worked for a major bank.
[00:07:17] LA: So your mom was a journalist, and your dad was a banker. After the death of Pablo Escobar, did she ever feel the need to go back? Or did she think this was the better option for educational opportunities.
DC: She really wanted to go back, because my whole family is over there. Literally everybody, my uncles, grandparents, cousins, and I guess you could say we are a small family, there is no more than 20 people, and we are really close to each other. I guess that was really hard on her, and I was really young, but she tells me stories that are hard on me as well. But yeah, she decided she wanted to go back and visit—and sometimes she wants to go back for good—but she was really persistent about how she wanted us to have a future here. She wanted us to become American citizens, because once you learn English, you’re bilingual, you are an American citizen you can travel anyone, doors open up for you as far as opportunities. That is the reason we are still here.
LA: You mentioned you were born in Bogotá, Colombia, and you lived there from birth until you were 8 years old, correct? Were you in the city-city or the suburbs? If there is any over there- which I’m sure there is but I’m just unfamiliar with the city structure and environment over there.
[00:08:58] DC: Well Colombia, I lived in the plain city. Colombia is pretty much the whitest place the North/South, which is, they are not bad areas, but they are filled with people who don’t have much money. The “North” is more expensive, and it is a nicer area with better schools. I lived in the “South”, in my grandparents’ house, but then my mom eventually we moved out to the “North”, and we got our apartment out there, and we own it to this day, and she is trying to sell it or get rid of it.
LA: Can you describe schools back in Bogotá, Colombia?
DC: It’s really different than in the US. It’s not um, you’re like in the states like there is a lot of public schools and they are divided by districts. Over there, there is public schools, but they are not good schools. Majority of people try to go to private schools. So I went to a private school called, (name of school), which was founded by people from Spain. There is a lot of schools founded in Colombia, schools like Germans go there in startup schools. And people from Britain go and start up a school. And yeah, it was a really good school, it was a whole system that went from 1st grade all the way to 11th. They don’t have 12th grade like here. They stop at 11, and they are very different at education over there. I remember I was doing very complicated math problems, and then I got here, and it was very, it was very behind over here. I felt kind of advance, and yeah, it was just very different.
LA: How was your experience, besides knowing more math problems like you said than the rest of the kids, I guess the social aspects and other like the English barrier if you learned that in Colombia?
[00:11:33] DC: Well it was surprisingly not as tough as you think it would be. It wasn’t as tough as I thought it would be—or people think it is. In Miami, everybody is Hispanics, so where I went, there were a lot of Hispanics and Spanish speaking—so it wasn’t as hard in that sense, but you are in the states, so English is the first language. There is actually a barrier, but actually, Miami has a really good program called (Name of program), where students who come from different countries, they try to immerse them in English and they help them out, so it’s a great program, you’re there for like 4 or 5 years. So I think that really helped out.
LA: So why did your family come to North Carolina of all places after Miami?
DC: Well, we actually didn’t expect it. It was mostly because I was turning 13 in Miami. It’s a good city, but the thing is it’s not the best place to raise children. So my parents wanted something more family oriented where there is not much of a big city life. A smaller town, where they could keep a closer eye on my sister and I. I was actually in Delaware with my uncle one summer, I was going to do summer school, and they came to pick me up (drove up from Miami), and they passed by North Carolina, and they knew a friend of a friend, and they stayed at her house. The lady told my parents about North Carolina and how good it was, and yeah it that got into their mind, and we got back to Miami, and they started looking into North Carolina, and they got an apartment, and we moved here.
LA: What kind of work was your father doing in Delaware? If you don’t mind me asking.
[00:13:50] DC: Well my Dad had the language barrier. He was just, he worked everything. He did construction, delivery, all of that with my uncle.
LA: So did your uncle who lived in Delaware help you settle into North Carolina? Or did the lady y’all talked with help you settle? Or was it just your family’s effort?
DC: It was more on our own. Our uncle was in Delaware so he couldn’t really help us out. The lady became friends with my mom, and it was a decision that my parents took—I guess we as a family took—it was only us.
LA: So knowing that you moved place to place, what would you consider your hometown above all—Charlotte, Miami, or Bogotá, Colombia?
[15:03] DC: That’s actually a very tough question. Colombia is where my roots are, that is where my family is, but I left it when I was really young, so I can’t forget my roots. Miami was difficult years, because I was getting into the wrong things, but yeah I came to North Carolina, and it was tough in the beginning, but I think of the place where I have grown as a person the most. The place where I have advanced, so it’s a really hard question. So if people were asking for my home town, I was say Cornelius, North Carolina.
LA: So what do people normally do in Colombia for employment?
DC: It’s different. To find a job over there is really tough. The problem is students who actually study something, and when they are out looking for a job it is difficult to find. It’s just like any other place. People work in banking, people work in all different sorts of departments, and it’s just work is hard to come by. It’s not like here, where, the more experience you have under your belt. If you are older here with a lot of experience, you don’t have a problem finding a job. But in Colombia, they don’t want people who are older. They want younger professionals in their late 20s and early 30s. They also don’t want really young kids. That’s why it’s tough to find. You get a lot of experience, but if you are older, it’s tougher to find a job.
LA: Who usually migrates from Colombia? So do people of a certain gender, age, do people who want to have a job in the US, people with visas?
[00:17:30] DC: The majority of people who have migrated are people with kids. Families that want to find better places for their kids. A lot of people move here, are not sure where they are going to work at. It’s very unselfish, they come here just thinking of their children. But I’m sure there are some, people who come with really good jobs waiting for them. I would say the majority that I have met are parents that are looking for better lives for future generations.
LA: Are the majority of these migrants, did you meet them in Miami, I’m guessing correct?
DC: Yes, majority in Miami. There is a couple in North Carolina that we have met. But as far as people in Colombia, there are a lot in Miami and New York.
[00:18:29] LA: Do you feel Miami is a tunnel for migrants from Bogota, Colombia?
DC: Not only from Colombia, but from every single Hispanic country. Even from, I’ve meet a couple of Europeans. It’s a really good transition, it’s a culture shock, but it’s really not that bad. You still find people from your home country who practice your customs. Other Hispanics, people just choose to go that route because it’s not that much of a culture shock.
LA: Do people in Colombia, do they talk about, is it common for people to talk about life in the US as opposed to life in Colombia—is it relevant for people to talk about?
DC: Yeah, people talk about whether they should come to the US or whether they should stay. Some people are just not willing to take the risk, it’s a 3rd world country, but it has progressed a lot. It certainly is a great place. People don’t want to take the risk of moving to a new country and experiencing culture shock. And the people do, so yeah that brings up a lot of conversation between a lot of people.
[00:20:14] LA: So I’m guessing you speak Spanish at home or do you speak English with your family.
DC: I only speak Spanish with my family at home. I speak English with my sister, and we can here when I was 8 and she was 3. So I speak English with here.
LA: So do any of your parents know English?
DC: My dad knows English pretty well. My mom knows English, she understands it, and she just has problems speaking it. Yeah, I’d say she’s pretty decent.
LA: How far did your parents reach in school?
DC: My mom actually got her bachelors and masters in Journalism, and she specialized with her masters. My dad didn’t finish his bachelors just because he was actually going to a state school. The school at the time was having a lot of riots, and there were just a lot of happenings, and he stopped going, because he didn’t think it was a very safe place.
[00:21:37] LA: -------- Pablo Escobar, drug cartels and all of that?
DC: Yeah I think so, it was because of that. Also the government at the time was very corrupt. Yeah, a lot of people just rioted, it was just a lot of crime and injustice.
LA: So what are do your parents do now that they are in North Carolina and are settled?
DC: Well my mom works for a public relations firm from home. She freelances a lot. My dad works for a factory job.
LA: Would you say, like, your mom wished she could be back doing journalism and is that something she misses, especially given the amount of time she put in for the occupation back in Colombia?
DC: She actually really loved it. But she told me that it was something that was good for some time, because she was doing it while I was really young. She had to travel outside of Bogotá, she traveled a lot. It was just, at the time she liked it a lot. She wouldn’t want to do it now, because it requires a lot of energy, a lot of moving. She has just settled down more.
LA: So have you gone back to Colombia, and if you have, how do your cousins interact with you, now that you live in America?
[00: 23:38] DC: Yeah, I went back in 2012, in December. It was great seeing family again, almost after 10 years. My cousins are learning English, and they are going to private school—a really good private school—in Colombia. The majority of it is in English. My other cousins think it’s cool and they have visited.
LA: I remember you mentioned that it has been, you took 10 years to get back to Bogota Colombia. Can you elaborate on why it took so long for you to get back?
DC: Well, we weren’t able to go back before that. I guess political asylum, you become a permanent resident, and you are not permitted to leave the country until you become a citizen. The process is estimated anywhere from 8 to 15 years. We couldn’t go before that, and we technically, and after the 8th year, but it was not for certain that if you would go, you would be able to travel, you would be able to come back. My parents didn’t want to take that risk. We waited till we became actual US citizens. That’s why we waited 10 years, because that is how long the process took.
LA: I also remember you mentioning that your cousins have been able to come over and visit you here. Are they also residents here? Do they have visas? Can you elaborate on that? DC: Yeah, sure. My cousin, two of my cousins, came and stayed with my mom. They have come visiting, they have already come twice, and yeah they have visas, so they just came for vacation. They came once, like in 2004/2005, and then they came about 2 years ago, saw Disney world and all the sites. My other cousin, she came last year, and she did have a visa, but she was trying to come here and start school, and try to have the experience under her belt. It shows really good if you have experience—if you have gone to school in the states. She just came to become a student here.
LA: So is she studying here now?
DC: No, she had to leave. It’s very complicated. It was not more of a state thing—not federal. The state of North Carolina was very tough for her, I think the problem was because she had already graduated, so she was no longer considered a student. So it was really hard for her to become a student here. My mom had to go to different schools and talk to the system, but it was more of state thing. In Florida, the process is much easier.
LA: It seems like the rest of your family, they weren’t in any high risk situations to gain political asylum. Did your mother, I guess, cover Escobar, the whole drug cartels?
DC: She wasn’t a major reporter during the Escobar thing, but she did interview with presidents and stuff like that. Like the president ---. I think she went to school with one of them. She was very big into that. I guess in Colombia there, Escobar targeted a lot of people in politics within the government. My mom wasn’t in the government, but she was very involved as far as interviewing goes. And during that time, just randomly, Pablo Escobar hid bombs throughout the city. He would just kill innocent people like that.
LA: During any of those times, did you ever feel unsafe?
[00:28:58] DC: No I never felt unsafe in Colombia. The thing was, I was born, and three months later they killed Pablo Escobar. I never really felt unsafe, because he was killed, but at the same time after that, we call ----, which is the rebel armed forces, so they were still doing their thing. Like throughout the years, a lot of things happened, but I was not actually concerned about my safety
LA: Does most of your family live in Colombia, your grandparents, uncles, and ants? Your family is the only one here right?
DC: Yeah all of my close family lives in Colombia, my really close family, my mom’s side, my dad’s side. I do have a couple of, cousins, second generation cousins, some uncles, just some people spread through the United States. My really close family, they are in Colombia.
LA: Have you ever had any sort of, any have you ever felt left out of any experiences, that the rest of your friends are having in the public education system, like “bring your grandparents to school day” or “thanksgiving celebrations” or are you missing that?
[00:30:54] DC: Yeah. For one thing, as far as education opportunities, I doubt it. This is the land of opportunities. This is the place where you can do something with your life if you are willing to work hard enough. As far as opportunities, no. But missing family, a lot of people have reunions, and yeah, it will only be my parents and my sister and I, and other people who are here have their whole family, so it’ll be a really big thing. But besides that, that’s about it.
LA: Have you ever had any sort of different, situations, where you felt uncomfortable, around people who don’t have the same culture as yourself.
DC: Yeah definitely. As soon as I moved here, it was a really hard change. I was really used to having people understand where I came from—and had the same struggles. Majority of my friends in Miami, are Colombian. They were in the same situation that I was. They came to this country for a better future, and my parents became friends with their parents. I guess I just created a bond, because we would know all the struggles we went thought. Here in NC it wasn’t like that, it was tough in the beginning, but I adapted to it, and throughout the years, after becoming American. I got citizenship from living here so long. At the same time, I became an American as far as my customs, hobbies, and majority of the things I do reflect more of an American than a Colombian.
[00:33:07] LA: Would you say that it is a positive or negative thing in your opinion-- the assimilation?
DC: I would say, it is kind of neutral. I was say its negative, when it comes to the point where, you don’t own up to your roots. You deny that you are Colombian or Hispanic for that matter. When it comes to the point where you forget where you come from, when you get so into the American culture and forget where your roots come from, then it becomes negative. People shouldn’t have to question their identity when it comes down to that. It’s very neutral. You move to the US, and of course, the US you only hang out with Americans, you adapt to their culture and there is no way out of that. It’s not a bad thing, I just don’t think you should forget where you come from.
LA: Say, if people were to look at you, what would they say you are?
DC: It’s tough. In Miami, people looked at me, and they instantly knew I was Hispanic, majority of people look at you, a lot of people are white, blue eyes, light hair. And you know, people are Cuban, Colombia, Puerto Rican, it’s different. While here in NC, majority of people already have a certain stereotype, there is just they already know how Hispanics look like. They just expect all Hispanics to have darker skin and darker hair. People look at me, and they just instantly think that I am white.
LA: Can you give me some characteristics about yourself that would make them think that?
DC: As far as physical characteristics?
LA: And any other characteristics that you can think of.
DC: Well I’m pretty light skinned. I have blue eyes, I have brown hair, I guess the way I dress, doesn’t really say that I’m—I don’t really dress like a foreigner. For example, music I listen to, I’m not like majority of Hispanics—I don’t listen to Spanish music at all. Yeah, I just prefer not to. The culture, and just that.
[00:36:24] LA: Have you ever felt like, I don’t know if you have ever got any social—do you—because of this ambiguity, that you might pose for people, have you ever felt you have been treated differently from Latinos in social scenes?
[00:37:01] DC: No, I don’t think I have been treated different. I guess here, since there is a lot of, the majority of Hispanics are Mexican or Central American, I guess they look at me and think I’m white. I guess people have talked about me and don’t know I’m Hispanic. It’s very natural. You instantly feel accepted, because you’re Hispanic and they’re Hispanic.
LA: Can you talk about an experience, where they talk Spanish, and they thought you didn’t know any?
[00:37:52] DC: Yeah, it happens a lot actually. It’s just, they are not necessary talking to me, but they are with other Hispanics, just talking, then I would cut in line, and they will talk in Spanish thinking I won’t understand, but I actually do.
LA: That’s interesting. What sort of support have you had along your young adult journey going through college now?
DC: Well going through college, my family, my mom, my dad, a lot of support from my family in Colombia. I talk to them, very frequently, and also, just support from some friends here at Carolina. The majority thing has been just friends, some friends back home in Charlotte, and just family.
LA: Have you ever had any teachers in your life that have helped you along your journey?
DC: As far as getting involved in my life?
LA: Yeah.
DC: I guess if I’m thinking about it, no. I have had professors that have asked and they have helped me out, but as far as getting into my life and getting to know me deeply, not really. There have been a lot of professors who are really helpful at my last college and even here at Carolina.
LA: What was your last college?
DC: It was Central Piedmont. It was a community college in Charlotte.
LA: So you just wanted to transfer out of there, because…
DC: No I wanted to transfer, because I went to community college, because I didn’t know, for one thing, I didn’t understand the whole college thing, because I was the first one to go to college in the US. I didn’t know how it worked, and my parents didn’t either so they couldn’t really help me out with that. I also had no idea what I wanted to do, and I wasn’t sure if I was getting help financially. We definitely did not have the money, and I decided to play it safe with community college and took classes there.
[00:41:04] LA: Now your career goals are to follow the footsteps of your mom, correct?
DC: Uh yeah. It’s different. My mom is a journalist, and now she has now transitioned into public relations. I guess I’m in the same field—I’m in the Journalism school—but I’m doing advertising as my concentration. Advertising is a totally different business, but that’s what I’m going for.
LA: Has she had any influence or is this all you?
DC: Oh yeah she has had a really big influence. Just my career, and she has been supportive, and I have been frustrated, because I didn’t know what I wanted to do with my life. First and Second year of college I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do. I think she helped me out a lot. She also had a lot of support from career counselors from my old school, and yeah thanks to god everything turned out well.
LA: How would you compare, being educated with liberal arts, how would you compare to the society that your parents grew up in, to the society here in America, and this is regarding gender roles, racial interactions, and such?
[00:42:42] DC: It’s very different. In Bogota, I guess it’s just as far as gender goes, yeah, it’s kind of been the same thing for a while. Even here in the states, women stay at home and men go out to work. It’s the same thing in Colombia. I guess it’s different, yeah, also gender, there is not much feminism over there as there is in the US. I feel like it was not an issue. It was an issue once, and it was addressed, but a lot of women are professionals over there. As far as race goes, I’ve never seen that in Colombia. Here in the US there have been racial tensions for a while, and injustice and racism and in Colombia not really. I guess a lot of people, yeah it’s really diverse there are blacks and people who are darker and people who are lighter. Colombia is a special country, because everybody is Colombian. And regardless of your race, people don’t tend to look at that. There are some stereotypes about darker Colombians, and from different cities and places. But as far as tension, here compared to Colombia, there is much more tension here.
LA: Do you feel you have been treated differently, have you ever had any racist remarks geared towards you?
[00:44:58] DC: In Miami, I never had any racism, well surprisingly, there is racism, but there is sort of tensions between African Americans and Hispanics. Not all of them, but there has been a lot of instances. They are very, its only in Miami, they are just a lot of racial tensions. Here not at all. In North Carolina, I was just surprised how African Americans were different here than in South Florida. As far as something happening to me that has been racist, maybe just playing around by some people, but I have never been discriminated against. One, because I don’t look—I look white and I speak Spanish fluently. There has been instances in North Carolina, where my mom, she looks as white as I do, and people have discriminated against her because her English has a strong accent. My dad is a little darker, so yeah he has been discriminated against. If people know that you have a strong accent or struggle with English, I can see how some people could be racist here in NC. Besides that, no, not with me.
LA: As we get ready to wrap up, are there any final comments you would like to share?
DC: Yeah for final thoughts or comments, I would just like to say that we should value sacrifice that people make. So my parents came to this country, my mother had a great job over there, my dad had a good job, and yeah, it’s just that my whole family is over there. For them, they made a huge sacrifice so that me and my sister could have a better life. It’s a sacrifice that I won’t ever forget. It’s the reason I’m at one of the best universities around now. I don’t think we should ever take anything for granted.
[00:47:59]: Thank you for those words of wisdom, Daniel. Once again, this is Luis Acosta with Daniel Correa in Carmichael 448, and it is March, February 26th, 2015 at 9: 58 PM.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Estudiantes
Es: Género de entrevistado
Hombre
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Daniel Correa es un estudiante transferido en su penúltimo año en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill estudiando periodismo. Él emigró a los Estados Unidos con sus padres y hermana menor desde Bogotá, Colombia en 2001 para conseguir asilo político. Correa se mudó a Miami cuando tenía ocho años y luego a Cornelius, Carolina del Norte cuando tenía trece años para terminar la escuela. Él estaba en un programa de aprendizaje bilingüe de inglés y español en Miami antes de venirse a Carolina del Norte. La mayoría de la familia de Daniel todavía vive en Colombia y el discute como son muy apegados. También habla sobre la difícil transición que fue para ellos emigrar. Él discute diferentes experiencias en E.U., que los forzó a conseguir asilo político y que significa cuando uno se adapta a la cultura “Americana”.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Daniel Correa por Luis Acosta, 26 Febrero 2015, R-0807, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Ciudadanía e inmigración; Experiencia migratoria; Identidad; Educación básica y media; Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill
Es: Transcripción
Luis Acosta: Hello this is Luis Acosta. The Date is February 26th 2015. This time is 8:56 PM. We are in Carmichael Residence Hall on the 4th floor room 448, and I am here with Daniel Correa. Hey Daniel thank you so much for being with me today. To start off can you tell me a little bit about yourself?
[00:00:34] Daniel Correa: Yeah sure. I am in the J School at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. I am studying advertising. I am also part of the UNC Act club. I live outside of Charlotte, and I am in-state, but before that I lived in Miami. I was actually born in Columbia—in Bogotá, Columbia. And yeah, I’ve been in this country since 2001. Now I’m at Carolina.
LA: So Daniel, what made you choose UNC of all places?
[00:01:12] DC: Well, UNC wasn’t my first choice. I was actually looking into the University of Florida. Initially I was first pursuing business, and the Kenan-Flagler School is one of the best schools in the Nation—in the world, if you will. So I looked into, and it was only 2 hours away from Charlotte and it had really good proximity. So yeah, why not give it a try? I applied into it-- I applied to UNC—not the business school. And yeah just by getting into it, I grew fond of UNC, and really wanted to come here. And yeah, the Journalism school is actually ranked higher than the business school, so I just decided to go with it.
LA: Daniel, you mentioned growing up in Miami, and you said you went to school in Charlotte though—or you currently live in Charlotte—can you comment or expand on that?
DC: Yeah, yeah it’s been very different, Miami is a very different place than Charlotte. When I lived in Miami, it was surprisingly, the majority of the school, like more than 80 percent were minorities. And then those, there weren’t many actual Caucasians down in Miami. The school where I grew up—where I went—and it was very different, there were many immigrants from Cuba, Colombia, Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic you know? Any country you name it. And yeah it’s a diverse place, and going from there to Charlotte is very different, where you, I was actually a minority here, where the majority is obviously Caucasian. It’s very different. Hispanics here, they are not like from South America or the Caribbean. A lot of them are from Central America or are Mexican. It’s been quite different.
LA: So how long did you stay in Miami? Like were you born there?
DC: I was born in Colombia. When I was 8 years old, the year 2001, the same year as the twin towers, that November we came to Miami, just in search of a better life—more opportunity. My parents came here to find better opportunities for me and my sister. And yeah, just a better future.
[00:03:59] LA: Was it hard working out any legal stuff when you came over? Or do you want to describe how that experience was during the time when migrating over?
DC: I was actually 8 years old, so I don’t quite remember. I do know we came here through what is called, political asylum. So, we became permanent residents for 9 10 years, and after that, they gave us the chance to become citizens.
LA: So why were you granted political asylum from Colombia. Would you mind sharing any of that with me?
[00:04:48] DC: I don’t mind sharing (laughs). My mom because she was actually a journalist for a long time in Colombia. And Columbia in the early 90s, late 80s, it was a dangerous place. Like drug campaigns, and Pablo Escobar, and many drug cartels, so my mom was a journalist at those times. One reason she told me we came to this country was because, she got a threat from the rebel forces over there (the name of the group?), and they threatened us, I guess threatened my mom, I guess it was a minor threat, but to this day, they are still in Colombia. They are not as violent as they used to be, but they still use terrorist tactics, and they kidnap important people in Colombia, and my mom didn’t want to take that risk, and yeah that was one reason why we came here. She asked for political asylum and they gave it to us, and we got to this country. Before that, my dad he actually came to the US, because my uncle was already in, in Delaware. So my dad came to the US and started working with him. And soon, the threat happened, and we decided to move over here. So yeah, that’s why we got political asylum.
LA: So how did your dad cross over since your mom was granted political asylum? It seems like your dad came in before your mom.
DC: Yeah, I am not really sure, I don’t know how my dad did it, and I think he did it the same way. Because he came here, and then a year later we stayed. I thought it was a workers visa, but never went back—actually he did go back to Colombia—so think he filed for that before us, so he got here, and I think he was political asylum as well.
LA: What occupation did your dad do back in Colombia?
DC: My dad he worked for banks in Colombia. Yeah, he worked for a major bank.
[00:07:17] LA: So your mom was a journalist, and your dad was a banker. After the death of Pablo Escobar, did she ever feel the need to go back? Or did she think this was the better option for educational opportunities.
DC: She really wanted to go back, because my whole family is over there. Literally everybody, my uncles, grandparents, cousins, and I guess you could say we are a small family, there is no more than 20 people, and we are really close to each other. I guess that was really hard on her, and I was really young, but she tells me stories that are hard on me as well. But yeah, she decided she wanted to go back and visit—and sometimes she wants to go back for good—but she was really persistent about how she wanted us to have a future here. She wanted us to become American citizens, because once you learn English, you’re bilingual, you are an American citizen you can travel anyone, doors open up for you as far as opportunities. That is the reason we are still here.
LA: You mentioned you were born in Bogotá, Colombia, and you lived there from birth until you were 8 years old, correct? Were you in the city-city or the suburbs? If there is any over there- which I’m sure there is but I’m just unfamiliar with the city structure and environment over there.
[00:08:58] DC: Well Colombia, I lived in the plain city. Colombia is pretty much the whitest place the North/South, which is, they are not bad areas, but they are filled with people who don’t have much money. The “North” is more expensive, and it is a nicer area with better schools. I lived in the “South”, in my grandparents’ house, but then my mom eventually we moved out to the “North”, and we got our apartment out there, and we own it to this day, and she is trying to sell it or get rid of it.
LA: Can you describe schools back in Bogotá, Colombia?
DC: It’s really different than in the US. It’s not um, you’re like in the states like there is a lot of public schools and they are divided by districts. Over there, there is public schools, but they are not good schools. Majority of people try to go to private schools. So I went to a private school called, (name of school), which was founded by people from Spain. There is a lot of schools founded in Colombia, schools like Germans go there in startup schools. And people from Britain go and start up a school. And yeah, it was a really good school, it was a whole system that went from 1st grade all the way to 11th. They don’t have 12th grade like here. They stop at 11, and they are very different at education over there. I remember I was doing very complicated math problems, and then I got here, and it was very, it was very behind over here. I felt kind of advance, and yeah, it was just very different.
LA: How was your experience, besides knowing more math problems like you said than the rest of the kids, I guess the social aspects and other like the English barrier if you learned that in Colombia?
[00:11:33] DC: Well it was surprisingly not as tough as you think it would be. It wasn’t as tough as I thought it would be—or people think it is. In Miami, everybody is Hispanics, so where I went, there were a lot of Hispanics and Spanish speaking—so it wasn’t as hard in that sense, but you are in the states, so English is the first language. There is actually a barrier, but actually, Miami has a really good program called (Name of program), where students who come from different countries, they try to immerse them in English and they help them out, so it’s a great program, you’re there for like 4 or 5 years. So I think that really helped out.
LA: So why did your family come to North Carolina of all places after Miami?
DC: Well, we actually didn’t expect it. It was mostly because I was turning 13 in Miami. It’s a good city, but the thing is it’s not the best place to raise children. So my parents wanted something more family oriented where there is not much of a big city life. A smaller town, where they could keep a closer eye on my sister and I. I was actually in Delaware with my uncle one summer, I was going to do summer school, and they came to pick me up (drove up from Miami), and they passed by North Carolina, and they knew a friend of a friend, and they stayed at her house. The lady told my parents about North Carolina and how good it was, and yeah it that got into their mind, and we got back to Miami, and they started looking into North Carolina, and they got an apartment, and we moved here.
LA: What kind of work was your father doing in Delaware? If you don’t mind me asking.
[00:13:50] DC: Well my Dad had the language barrier. He was just, he worked everything. He did construction, delivery, all of that with my uncle.
LA: So did your uncle who lived in Delaware help you settle into North Carolina? Or did the lady y’all talked with help you settle? Or was it just your family’s effort?
DC: It was more on our own. Our uncle was in Delaware so he couldn’t really help us out. The lady became friends with my mom, and it was a decision that my parents took—I guess we as a family took—it was only us.
LA: So knowing that you moved place to place, what would you consider your hometown above all—Charlotte, Miami, or Bogotá, Colombia?
[15:03] DC: That’s actually a very tough question. Colombia is where my roots are, that is where my family is, but I left it when I was really young, so I can’t forget my roots. Miami was difficult years, because I was getting into the wrong things, but yeah I came to North Carolina, and it was tough in the beginning, but I think of the place where I have grown as a person the most. The place where I have advanced, so it’s a really hard question. So if people were asking for my home town, I was say Cornelius, North Carolina.
LA: So what do people normally do in Colombia for employment?
DC: It’s different. To find a job over there is really tough. The problem is students who actually study something, and when they are out looking for a job it is difficult to find. It’s just like any other place. People work in banking, people work in all different sorts of departments, and it’s just work is hard to come by. It’s not like here, where, the more experience you have under your belt. If you are older here with a lot of experience, you don’t have a problem finding a job. But in Colombia, they don’t want people who are older. They want younger professionals in their late 20s and early 30s. They also don’t want really young kids. That’s why it’s tough to find. You get a lot of experience, but if you are older, it’s tougher to find a job.
LA: Who usually migrates from Colombia? So do people of a certain gender, age, do people who want to have a job in the US, people with visas?
[00:17:30] DC: The majority of people who have migrated are people with kids. Families that want to find better places for their kids. A lot of people move here, are not sure where they are going to work at. It’s very unselfish, they come here just thinking of their children. But I’m sure there are some, people who come with really good jobs waiting for them. I would say the majority that I have met are parents that are looking for better lives for future generations.
LA: Are the majority of these migrants, did you meet them in Miami, I’m guessing correct?
DC: Yes, majority in Miami. There is a couple in North Carolina that we have met. But as far as people in Colombia, there are a lot in Miami and New York.
[00:18:29] LA: Do you feel Miami is a tunnel for migrants from Bogota, Colombia?
DC: Not only from Colombia, but from every single Hispanic country. Even from, I’ve meet a couple of Europeans. It’s a really good transition, it’s a culture shock, but it’s really not that bad. You still find people from your home country who practice your customs. Other Hispanics, people just choose to go that route because it’s not that much of a culture shock.
LA: Do people in Colombia, do they talk about, is it common for people to talk about life in the US as opposed to life in Colombia—is it relevant for people to talk about?
DC: Yeah, people talk about whether they should come to the US or whether they should stay. Some people are just not willing to take the risk, it’s a 3rd world country, but it has progressed a lot. It certainly is a great place. People don’t want to take the risk of moving to a new country and experiencing culture shock. And the people do, so yeah that brings up a lot of conversation between a lot of people.
[00:20:14] LA: So I’m guessing you speak Spanish at home or do you speak English with your family.
DC: I only speak Spanish with my family at home. I speak English with my sister, and we can here when I was 8 and she was 3. So I speak English with here.
LA: So do any of your parents know English?
DC: My dad knows English pretty well. My mom knows English, she understands it, and she just has problems speaking it. Yeah, I’d say she’s pretty decent.
LA: How far did your parents reach in school?
DC: My mom actually got her bachelors and masters in Journalism, and she specialized with her masters. My dad didn’t finish his bachelors just because he was actually going to a state school. The school at the time was having a lot of riots, and there were just a lot of happenings, and he stopped going, because he didn’t think it was a very safe place.
[00:21:37] LA: -------- Pablo Escobar, drug cartels and all of that?
DC: Yeah I think so, it was because of that. Also the government at the time was very corrupt. Yeah, a lot of people just rioted, it was just a lot of crime and injustice.
LA: So what are do your parents do now that they are in North Carolina and are settled?
DC: Well my mom works for a public relations firm from home. She freelances a lot. My dad works for a factory job.
LA: Would you say, like, your mom wished she could be back doing journalism and is that something she misses, especially given the amount of time she put in for the occupation back in Colombia?
DC: She actually really loved it. But she told me that it was something that was good for some time, because she was doing it while I was really young. She had to travel outside of Bogotá, she traveled a lot. It was just, at the time she liked it a lot. She wouldn’t want to do it now, because it requires a lot of energy, a lot of moving. She has just settled down more.
LA: So have you gone back to Colombia, and if you have, how do your cousins interact with you, now that you live in America?
[00: 23:38] DC: Yeah, I went back in 2012, in December. It was great seeing family again, almost after 10 years. My cousins are learning English, and they are going to private school—a really good private school—in Colombia. The majority of it is in English. My other cousins think it’s cool and they have visited.
LA: I remember you mentioned that it has been, you took 10 years to get back to Bogota Colombia. Can you elaborate on why it took so long for you to get back?
DC: Well, we weren’t able to go back before that. I guess political asylum, you become a permanent resident, and you are not permitted to leave the country until you become a citizen. The process is estimated anywhere from 8 to 15 years. We couldn’t go before that, and we technically, and after the 8th year, but it was not for certain that if you would go, you would be able to travel, you would be able to come back. My parents didn’t want to take that risk. We waited till we became actual US citizens. That’s why we waited 10 years, because that is how long the process took.
LA: I also remember you mentioning that your cousins have been able to come over and visit you here. Are they also residents here? Do they have visas? Can you elaborate on that? DC: Yeah, sure. My cousin, two of my cousins, came and stayed with my mom. They have come visiting, they have already come twice, and yeah they have visas, so they just came for vacation. They came once, like in 2004/2005, and then they came about 2 years ago, saw Disney world and all the sites. My other cousin, she came last year, and she did have a visa, but she was trying to come here and start school, and try to have the experience under her belt. It shows really good if you have experience—if you have gone to school in the states. She just came to become a student here.
LA: So is she studying here now?
DC: No, she had to leave. It’s very complicated. It was not more of a state thing—not federal. The state of North Carolina was very tough for her, I think the problem was because she had already graduated, so she was no longer considered a student. So it was really hard for her to become a student here. My mom had to go to different schools and talk to the system, but it was more of state thing. In Florida, the process is much easier.
LA: It seems like the rest of your family, they weren’t in any high risk situations to gain political asylum. Did your mother, I guess, cover Escobar, the whole drug cartels?
DC: She wasn’t a major reporter during the Escobar thing, but she did interview with presidents and stuff like that. Like the president ---. I think she went to school with one of them. She was very big into that. I guess in Colombia there, Escobar targeted a lot of people in politics within the government. My mom wasn’t in the government, but she was very involved as far as interviewing goes. And during that time, just randomly, Pablo Escobar hid bombs throughout the city. He would just kill innocent people like that.
LA: During any of those times, did you ever feel unsafe?
[00:28:58] DC: No I never felt unsafe in Colombia. The thing was, I was born, and three months later they killed Pablo Escobar. I never really felt unsafe, because he was killed, but at the same time after that, we call ----, which is the rebel armed forces, so they were still doing their thing. Like throughout the years, a lot of things happened, but I was not actually concerned about my safety
LA: Does most of your family live in Colombia, your grandparents, uncles, and ants? Your family is the only one here right?
DC: Yeah all of my close family lives in Colombia, my really close family, my mom’s side, my dad’s side. I do have a couple of, cousins, second generation cousins, some uncles, just some people spread through the United States. My really close family, they are in Colombia.
LA: Have you ever had any sort of, any have you ever felt left out of any experiences, that the rest of your friends are having in the public education system, like “bring your grandparents to school day” or “thanksgiving celebrations” or are you missing that?
[00:30:54] DC: Yeah. For one thing, as far as education opportunities, I doubt it. This is the land of opportunities. This is the place where you can do something with your life if you are willing to work hard enough. As far as opportunities, no. But missing family, a lot of people have reunions, and yeah, it will only be my parents and my sister and I, and other people who are here have their whole family, so it’ll be a really big thing. But besides that, that’s about it.
LA: Have you ever had any sort of different, situations, where you felt uncomfortable, around people who don’t have the same culture as yourself.
DC: Yeah definitely. As soon as I moved here, it was a really hard change. I was really used to having people understand where I came from—and had the same struggles. Majority of my friends in Miami, are Colombian. They were in the same situation that I was. They came to this country for a better future, and my parents became friends with their parents. I guess I just created a bond, because we would know all the struggles we went thought. Here in NC it wasn’t like that, it was tough in the beginning, but I adapted to it, and throughout the years, after becoming American. I got citizenship from living here so long. At the same time, I became an American as far as my customs, hobbies, and majority of the things I do reflect more of an American than a Colombian.
[00:33:07] LA: Would you say that it is a positive or negative thing in your opinion-- the assimilation?
DC: I would say, it is kind of neutral. I was say its negative, when it comes to the point where, you don’t own up to your roots. You deny that you are Colombian or Hispanic for that matter. When it comes to the point where you forget where you come from, when you get so into the American culture and forget where your roots come from, then it becomes negative. People shouldn’t have to question their identity when it comes down to that. It’s very neutral. You move to the US, and of course, the US you only hang out with Americans, you adapt to their culture and there is no way out of that. It’s not a bad thing, I just don’t think you should forget where you come from.
LA: Say, if people were to look at you, what would they say you are?
DC: It’s tough. In Miami, people looked at me, and they instantly knew I was Hispanic, majority of people look at you, a lot of people are white, blue eyes, light hair. And you know, people are Cuban, Colombia, Puerto Rican, it’s different. While here in NC, majority of people already have a certain stereotype, there is just they already know how Hispanics look like. They just expect all Hispanics to have darker skin and darker hair. People look at me, and they just instantly think that I am white.
LA: Can you give me some characteristics about yourself that would make them think that?
DC: As far as physical characteristics?
LA: And any other characteristics that you can think of.
DC: Well I’m pretty light skinned. I have blue eyes, I have brown hair, I guess the way I dress, doesn’t really say that I’m—I don’t really dress like a foreigner. For example, music I listen to, I’m not like majority of Hispanics—I don’t listen to Spanish music at all. Yeah, I just prefer not to. The culture, and just that.
[00:36:24] LA: Have you ever felt like, I don’t know if you have ever got any social—do you—because of this ambiguity, that you might pose for people, have you ever felt you have been treated differently from Latinos in social scenes?
[00:37:01] DC: No, I don’t think I have been treated different. I guess here, since there is a lot of, the majority of Hispanics are Mexican or Central American, I guess they look at me and think I’m white. I guess people have talked about me and don’t know I’m Hispanic. It’s very natural. You instantly feel accepted, because you’re Hispanic and they’re Hispanic.
LA: Can you talk about an experience, where they talk Spanish, and they thought you didn’t know any?
[00:37:52] DC: Yeah, it happens a lot actually. It’s just, they are not necessary talking to me, but they are with other Hispanics, just talking, then I would cut in line, and they will talk in Spanish thinking I won’t understand, but I actually do.
LA: That’s interesting. What sort of support have you had along your young adult journey going through college now?
DC: Well going through college, my family, my mom, my dad, a lot of support from my family in Colombia. I talk to them, very frequently, and also, just support from some friends here at Carolina. The majority thing has been just friends, some friends back home in Charlotte, and just family.
LA: Have you ever had any teachers in your life that have helped you along your journey?
DC: As far as getting involved in my life?
LA: Yeah.
DC: I guess if I’m thinking about it, no. I have had professors that have asked and they have helped me out, but as far as getting into my life and getting to know me deeply, not really. There have been a lot of professors who are really helpful at my last college and even here at Carolina.
LA: What was your last college?
DC: It was Central Piedmont. It was a community college in Charlotte.
LA: So you just wanted to transfer out of there, because…
DC: No I wanted to transfer, because I went to community college, because I didn’t know, for one thing, I didn’t understand the whole college thing, because I was the first one to go to college in the US. I didn’t know how it worked, and my parents didn’t either so they couldn’t really help me out with that. I also had no idea what I wanted to do, and I wasn’t sure if I was getting help financially. We definitely did not have the money, and I decided to play it safe with community college and took classes there.
[00:41:04] LA: Now your career goals are to follow the footsteps of your mom, correct?
DC: Uh yeah. It’s different. My mom is a journalist, and now she has now transitioned into public relations. I guess I’m in the same field—I’m in the Journalism school—but I’m doing advertising as my concentration. Advertising is a totally different business, but that’s what I’m going for.
LA: Has she had any influence or is this all you?
DC: Oh yeah she has had a really big influence. Just my career, and she has been supportive, and I have been frustrated, because I didn’t know what I wanted to do with my life. First and Second year of college I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do. I think she helped me out a lot. She also had a lot of support from career counselors from my old school, and yeah thanks to god everything turned out well.
LA: How would you compare, being educated with liberal arts, how would you compare to the society that your parents grew up in, to the society here in America, and this is regarding gender roles, racial interactions, and such?
[00:42:42] DC: It’s very different. In Bogota, I guess it’s just as far as gender goes, yeah, it’s kind of been the same thing for a while. Even here in the states, women stay at home and men go out to work. It’s the same thing in Colombia. I guess it’s different, yeah, also gender, there is not much feminism over there as there is in the US. I feel like it was not an issue. It was an issue once, and it was addressed, but a lot of women are professionals over there. As far as race goes, I’ve never seen that in Colombia. Here in the US there have been racial tensions for a while, and injustice and racism and in Colombia not really. I guess a lot of people, yeah it’s really diverse there are blacks and people who are darker and people who are lighter. Colombia is a special country, because everybody is Colombian. And regardless of your race, people don’t tend to look at that. There are some stereotypes about darker Colombians, and from different cities and places. But as far as tension, here compared to Colombia, there is much more tension here.
LA: Do you feel you have been treated differently, have you ever had any racist remarks geared towards you?
[00:44:58] DC: In Miami, I never had any racism, well surprisingly, there is racism, but there is sort of tensions between African Americans and Hispanics. Not all of them, but there has been a lot of instances. They are very, its only in Miami, they are just a lot of racial tensions. Here not at all. In North Carolina, I was just surprised how African Americans were different here than in South Florida. As far as something happening to me that has been racist, maybe just playing around by some people, but I have never been discriminated against. One, because I don’t look—I look white and I speak Spanish fluently. There has been instances in North Carolina, where my mom, she looks as white as I do, and people have discriminated against her because her English has a strong accent. My dad is a little darker, so yeah he has been discriminated against. If people know that you have a strong accent or struggle with English, I can see how some people could be racist here in NC. Besides that, no, not with me.
LA: As we get ready to wrap up, are there any final comments you would like to share?
DC: Yeah for final thoughts or comments, I would just like to say that we should value sacrifice that people make. So my parents came to this country, my mother had a great job over there, my dad had a good job, and yeah, it’s just that my whole family is over there. For them, they made a huge sacrifice so that me and my sister could have a better life. It’s a sacrifice that I won’t ever forget. It’s the reason I’m at one of the best universities around now. I don’t think we should ever take anything for granted.
[00:47:59]: Thank you for those words of wisdom, Daniel. Once again, this is Luis Acosta with Daniel Correa in Carmichael 448, and it is March, February 26th, 2015 at 9: 58 PM.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-0807 -- Correa, Daniel.
Description
An account of the resource
Daniel Correa is a junior transfer at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill studying Journalism. He immigrated to the United States with his parents and younger sister from Bogotá, Colombia in 2001, seeking political asylum. Correa moved to Miami at the age of eight and then to Cornelius, North Carolina when he was thirteen to finish school. He was in a special English-Spanish learning program in Miami before coming to North Carolina. Most of Daniel’s family still lives in Colombia and he discusses how close-knit they are. He also talks about how hard of a transition it was for them to emigrate. He discusses different experiences he has gone through here in the US, what forced them to seek political asylum and what it means to adapt to “American” culture.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
26 February 2015
Format
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R0807_Audio.mp3
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/26875">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/ab71461e165c2ba0d758c1b7a3d8ff6a.mp3
fc97da258e86283acb040a987af355ab
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/481ca46b3be3b9737f8c9d6d9e5154de.pdf
d9261c435ad3a6f40a5e9157cac5da1a
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0802
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
01 March 2015
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Cardona, Yanexy.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Students
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1995
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Miami -- Florida -- United States
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Durham -- Durham County -- North Carolina
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Wawrzonek, Katherinne.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Yanexy Cardona mentions her family’s immigration experience as Hondurans crossing the Mexican-American border. In addition, she defines her Honduran identity and how it is different from other Latin American countries. Yanexy discusses what influenced her family to move to North Carolina and how they have integrated with the community. She discusses some of the challenges her family had to face as immigrants. She describes ways she has interacted and participated to bring immigration awareness on campus as a student of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Yanexy Cardona by Katherinne Wawrzonek, 01 March 2015, R-0802, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/26866
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Identity; Family; Citizenship and immigration; Labor and employment; University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Katherinne Wawrzonek: Hello, this is Katherinne Wawrzonek and I am getting ready to record Yanexy Cardona about her experience as an immigrant and interacting in community in North Carolina. Okay Yanexy tell me a little bit about yourself.
Yanexy Cardona: Well, I am 19 years old. I have lived in Durham in North Carolina and I am a sophomore at UNC Chapel Hill.
Katherinne Wawrzonek: Where are you originally from?
Yanexy Cardona: So, I was born in Miami, Florida but my parents are from Honduras.
[00:00:45] KW: How do you identify yourself as a Latina? What are three things or four things that you mainly identify as a Latina? Like how do you identify yourself as a Latina?
YC: Well, I guess a Latina o Latino would be someone that their origins are from Latin America. It doesn’t necessary have to be like you know…just like South America. It doesn’t have to be someone Spanish speaking…you could be Brazilian, black, Latino because you are from Latin America.
KW: Okay, What are three things that identifies you as Honduran?
YC: Well, you have to have your roots from that place. I feel like that’s one. I guess, two is like to speak one of the Languages, maybe Spanish and there is also the indigenous language of guarifuna. Also, they speak English there some times.
KW: When you say roots, what do you mean by roots?
YC: When I say roots I mean that you are either born there or your ancestry is from there.
[00:02:23] KW: Okay, what composes that? What aspects of your culture or maybe traditions? Things that you do that identify you differently as a Honduran compare to Colombian or Mexican?
YC: A lot of people when they think of Latin America they tend to think of just Mexico, but that actually completely wrong. Latin America is composed of different cultures. For example, in Honduras they have their national dances like Punta, which is kind of rooted back to the indigenous/ African ancestry when men shake their hips and the drums roll. Also, the different types of food; I know that there are paliadas are not really known in Mexico or Colombia. Different places have food. The people, there are different facial features that you can use to tell people from different regions. Also, nationalism; I guess that you identify and you understand certain people. I know that in South America Simon Bolivar is very famous and respected, but for us in Honduras is more of Francisco Morazán because he liberated us.
KW: That is interesting. So it's not just about the culture but it also has to do with traditions, history and I guess family as well. Do you think your family is different then other Latin American families? If so, in what ways?
YC: Obliviously, there is different regions that have their different special words
KW: okay.
YC: Like I know for us there is maje, which is kind of like a person. Is like for Mexican is "way". Just little different languages…not languages but little words.
KW: Like dialect?
YC: Dialects, yeah but like …yeah I guess you can call it a dialect. It’s like different words that like people from that region hear and be like…!Oh that person said that word so they must be from that region because they said it!
[00:04:44] KW: So you mentioned that you were born in Miami but your parents were from Honduras. What made you guys move to North Carolina? Why did you choose this state, the city of Carrboro and this area?
YC: Okay, so my father got a job promotion here in North Carolina. He was working for a construction company and so he moved us here because of that. He wanted to get a hire… earn more money. He also did some research and learned that the cost of living is lower here.
KW: How has these opportunities with your dad's employment has benefit you guys in the long run?
YC: Well I know that in Miami, where I used to live. I had to share a room with my parents because we were not able to really afford a house. The houses over there….If you want a decent house and in a good neighborhood they are 200 thousand and above. Here they were able to buy a house and I was able to get my room. There are more financial opportunities here then in a big huge ginormous city.
KW: Have you seen any difference in Education?
YC: Yeah, obviously over there is a bigger city so classrooms are bigger. I remember I was in kinder garner with like 35 other children and there was one teacher or teacher assistant. Then, when I came here for middle school and high school it was much smaller. There was only 15 or 20.
KW: How did you feel like that benefit you in the long run?
[00:06:15] YC: I felt like I could connect with the teacher more. I felt like the teachers were more one on one. You could like establish a better relationship with them.
KW: How has this relationship benefit you in the long run? These connections, have they helped you become better in any kind of way or have they helped you achieve more in the academics?
YC: When I was in Miami I was suffering. If you asked me when I was little what my favorite subject was, I would have not said math or science because I hated those so much. Then, when I got here I was really good at math and science. I guess because I was more confortable with the teachers. Also, they actually try to have a good relationship with you. I don’t know if it’s the way they teach or if it’s more one on one. I understand the material better here.
KW: How are.. How is your relationship with the community? Are you very active? Is it hard for you to interact or integrate in the community as a Hispanic or Latina?
YC: Well I was in the community. I am very busy because I have like a job now. But before I was active in these organizations like SUIE and CHISPA. I’m actually trying to go back to those times. I am actually trying to go to the Cultura committee in CHISPA and like participated in like Noche Latina. Maybe in prompts or something but I have to talk to the members of the organization first.
KW: So you said you used to be more active with this organization but now you are not as much because of your work. What exactly did you used to do in these organizations? Like before work. For example, SUIE.
YC: In SUIE, I would always like if they had an event. I would always help out. I would always give ideas. I would always go to the meeting. I would establish better relationship, better friendships.
[00:08:26] KW: What kind of events did you helped in?
YC: In SUIE, there is a day in the life of an immigrant. It’s like a simulation where we gave out people either a special shape. They didn’t know what the shape represented, it was like a square and a circle. If you got the square you were undocumented. If you got a circle you had documentation, you were documented. So depending, you would go to different stations and depending on what you was, you got treated different.
KW: In what aspect were you treated different?
YC: So for example, in like hospitals. One of the simulations was that if you were undocumented you couldn’t really go to the hospital because you were afraid of the medical bills. So you would go somewhere else and you would delay your treatment. But since the other people were documented, then they easily when to the hospital and got treated faster. Another example, there was another station for the police. So, if you were undocumented you could face deportation. Then other station was schools, obliviously if you are undocumented you don’t have many options to go to hire your education.
KW: What about the other organization that you mentioned like CHISPA. What were some of the events you participated in?
YC: CHISPA, I Remember that I did this thing call Carnaval at the end of the year. I just helped set up something’s. Basically go to the meeting and put what I thought about some of the events.
[00:10:15] KW: What are some of the events that happened in Carnaval? Could you go into more detail?
YC: Yeah, sure. In the Carnaval the fraternity and sorority do their little dances. You got your face painted with like your flag from where you were from. They had food, cake and it’s just like a celebration.
KW: Did you see a lot of different diversities in these events?
YC: Of course, we also painted some of the flags that we had there. Yeah, of course we saw all kinds of people. It wasn't just like all Hispanics or Latino people. It was like Americans, not American. White people, African-American, Asians and everyone was there. Well not everyone but you know, different types of people.
KW: But this Carnaval focused mainly on the Latinos identity?
YC: Yes, like a celebration of the Hispanic culture.
KW: How did you feel like the Americans, the African-American and Asians related themselves to this Carnival? How did they react to some of the events that happened within the Carnival?
YC: Oh, like they loved it. I guess is because it’s exotic or different. They participated and got their face painted with like different flags. They danced.
KW: As a daughter of an immigrant, how do you see or do you see any different in the way your parents are treated when they try to interact within the community? What are their challenges that you feel they have as immigrants since they actually were not being born here, but as an immigrant to the North Carolina State?
YC: So, I guess when they came here to North Carolina State they already had…I think since I was 3 or 4 they were already documented. So I don’t know of any or I can’t think of anything of top of my head where they were discriminated. But I know there is people who are because they are undocumented. They got pulled over and they had through go to immigration court and they just got deported.
[00:12:32] KW: When you say these people, do you mean friends of your family?
YC: Yes! Yes family and other family members.
KW: Like could you go into more detail?
YC: Like an example of this is my cousin. I think last week they like, I don’t know if it was racial profiling or they stopped him. They stopped him. I don’t know if he was speeding? (She was talking to herself) I don’t know the exact story, but they stopped him and he was undocumented so obviously he didn’t have a license. Now he is in immigration court currently, they put him in jail and then they…I guess figured out that he didn’t have documents. Now then….Now he is in immigration court and they might… I am pretty sure they are going to deport him.
KW: So how is this affecting your family knowing that one of your relatives are going through such a difficult time because of not having a legal status within the United States?
YC: It is horrible. I know my mom cried because she felt like she was responsible for him. He is 21 so she felt like she was responsible for him. I guess she feels bad because she was supposed to be responsible for him. This was not suppose to happen to him so I guess this is just hard for the family.
KW: Is he your mom’s nephew? Or is it your dad's? When you say cousin.
YC: Mom.
KW: Is it through your mom's sister or brother?
YC: Mom's brother.
KW: How close are you to him? What's his name?
YC: His name is Fernando.
KW: How… Are you close to Fernando?
YC: Oh yeah. When he was in Honduras like I would hang out with him all the time because we are so close in age. When he was here we would go out all the time.
KW: So how does that affect you directly?
YC: Well I feel sad that he has to get deported.
KW: Do you know for sure that he is going to get deported?
YC: I mean..
KW: Is there any kind of waiver or anything that he could be able to apply? Have you spoken to a lawyer?
YC: Yeah, we have done that.
KW: There is no chances for that?
YC: They told us to write letter and say that he is a good person but they don’t have…we don’t have lots of hope.
[00:15:07] KW: What other challenges do you feel like your family has faced whether is direct or indirectly as an immigrant in the United States?
YC: Well obviously if you have DACA, then you cant have a decent job. You can't get education or it's harder to get education. So, I feel like just closes us to so many opportunities that you can have here. It just keeps us on this cycle.
KW: What do you mean this cycle?
YC: It's kind of like…I feel like we as Latinos have this little cycle where we are not documented. So we don’t get education, we have children early, and then I guess our children see that we did the something. So then they want to do the same thing and it’s just like this little cycle.
KW: So how important is it for immigrants to try to interact within the community to that they can get to know the law, but also like you mention the work and education opportunities. Because if you are undocumented your resources are kind of limited but don’t you…how do you think is important for them to interact so that they can learn what other opportunities are there for them?
YC: Well I know like when they try to interact within the community there are different organizations. Like I know that there are people who give free advise or undocumented lawyers. There is also people that I know in churches that give and have different programs for like education to teach people how to speak English.
KW: Have your family ever taken any of those courses or any other programs?
YC: I guess when my dad was in Miami. They had this community college had ESL programs and that’s how he learned English.
KW: Are both of your parents fluent?
YC: My dad is definitely fluent. I feel like my mom understands but her grammatical structure isn’t that well, but she definitely understands it.
KW: So how does your mom understand by not being able to speak correctly? Does it limit her opportunities here opportunities here in North Carolina?
YC: Well North Carolina…mi mamá se confío mucho when she was living in Florida, because everyone spoke Spanish. She didn't aprovecho de las oportunidades. So then when she came here the majority of the people here is the opposite. They speak English so she missed out on like a lot of maybe promotion and job opportunities, because she is not able to express herself correctly in English.
KW: Is she currently doing anything to change that in any kind of way?
YC: No, not really.
KW: What is her… I guess job title currently? Is she currently employed?
YC: Yes, she is employed. She works at this… at a hotel with banquets. So like just say there is an event of a quince, sweet sixteen, quinceañera or like a business meeting; she is in charge of the people who are organizing the food for those events.
[00:19:02] KW: Does she mainly work with other Latinos?
YC: Yes.
KW: Okay, so she has mainly… her connections are through other Hispanics more then they are with Americans.
YC: Yes.
KW: How important do you think is for them to I guess… for Hispanics to like stay together within the state or within the community, so that they are able to not limited themselves with opportunities that are offer to any other Americans?
YC: Well power comes in numbers, obviously if the people don’t stick together or in a group then people are not going to take them seriously.
KW: So going back to what you mentioned about the roots, the culture and the dances. How do you see North Carolina like impacting that area of your Honduran, I guess identity? Like being a Hispanic in an American community?
YC: Well I guess since we are here in North Carolina is kind of harder. I know there’s like…I guess they do with the majority of the Hispanic population does which is mostly for me, I think it’s Mexican. So there is like a lot of Mexican stores and I feel like the only way Hondurans come is when it there’s different parties and nightclubs… I guess bring the Honduran groups, like dancing groups to these places.
KW: What about food wise? Do you feel like that is limited as well for Hondurans? Even if it is, I mean do you feel like its limited as Carrboro/ Chapel hill area or in the state of North Carolina? Have you not found a place that you can connect to your Honduran roots? Maybe like an international supermarket in Raleigh?
YC: well I don’t know of any areas near Carrboro/ Chapel Hill area. I know that there is a store here, I think there is like one but it just reminds me more of the Mexican culture. But I know that there is international supermarkets like what you said, an international supermarket where I can get a soda that's from Honduras and I will drink it and it reminds me of when I go visit there. I know that there is like restaurants that are like Salvadorian or Central American, where I can get the paliadas and the type of food.
KW: Talking about baleadas, what exactly is a baleadas? Like what is that?
YC: It’s like a tortilla de arina and frijol. There's different, there is simple and there is especial. Simple solamente tienen quezo, crema y frijoles fritos. La especial you add simple mas huevos revueltos y carne.
KW: Now are you able to have baleadas at homes? Does your mom?
YC: Yes! Of course. I bring my friends over and they love it! I know I brought my roommate over one time when my mom was making baleadas. She is like bring me again.
[00:22: 30] KW: That's too funny. I get excited when I get to try Colombian food as well, lord yes
[laughs]
Talk to me about what you said about your family moving here because of the cost of living. Do you…. How do you relate yourself to that? Do you feel like having a lower cost of living in North Carolina it is easier for Hispanics to be able to maintain themselves within the state or within a specific social status?
YC: Yes I feel like since it cost less to live here compare to bigger cities. A lot of the Hispanics communities are coming over here because is like.. Obviously if you are undocumented you don’t get a lot of like very well…very good jobs like lawyers, doctors or even jobs…I guess that have bachelor degree get. So coming over here where the cost of living is cheaper, it is beneficial for them. Especially because the types of jobs that they get.
KW: When you say a lot. Do you mean… Do you personally know a lot of people that have been moving here from other states?
YC: Yes, most of the people that I know are from different places. They are like from Los Angeles, Miami, Chicago and they come here when they are like in high school or middle school because of job opportunities that their parents get.
KW: So you feel that the main purpose for moving to the state of North Carolina is for job opportunities?
YC: I feel like yeah.
[00:24: 02] KW: What kind of job opportunities have you heard of these people obtain as they moved to this state of North Carolina?
YC: Companies that they have been working for have a job here in North Carolina. Like big jobs that takes like 3 to 5 years to complete, maybe is like a construction job so they end up coming here. Then they end up liking it here so they just decide to stay.
KW: Have you seen mostly of the people doing construction then anything else?
YC: Yeah.
KW: Oh okay. You mentioned that you used too volunteer within the community but now you are working. Could you elaborate about like your job and what it is that you do?
YC: Okay, so I work for the center of dramatic art. I just like sort like through like color.... well there is like a theater in there. Its like the classroom where people who are in UNC, when they want to be theater majors, they go there. So there is a theater there so iI sort through different color lights and do simple task like that.
KW: How is this work of yours connection implementing ways for you to be able to move forward as a Latina in the community or within the future? Do you think this job will give you better job opportunities within the future?
YC: Well I guess having a job in college looks good in a transcript because you have experience. I know that there are some people that just study and they don’t want to go out and at least try to do something that is related to the real work. Actually it kind of motivates me because I don’t really like the job so it motivates me to get a better job. So I’m just like, this is just the beginning.
KW: So, I remember you mentioning that your dad is fluent. So by seeing your mom that has just a basic understanding of English and your dad being fluent. Do you find them in a different level when it comes interacting with the community or having a more establish social or financial situation?
YC: Oh yeah, my dad definitely earns more then my mother. My dad…. when it came to teachers, my dad would talk to the teacher so I guess he was more social.
KW: When you said teachers. What exactly does your dad do?
YC: When I am in what?
KW: You mentioned that when your dad talked to the teacher, and he would be more social.
YC: Just like more social period like in the community. If someone said something to him, he would like in English. He could reply back
[00: 27:12] KW: What exactly does your dad do when it comes to employment?
YC: So he works in a refinery, which is making gasoline.
KW: That's cool. Do you ever go see him?
KW: Yeah, I go see him all the time at his job. He has like a little office and then he goes out and mixed chemicals. He has this station; I think he works at this refinery Exxon. I guess like he has…. obviously he has a better paying job then my mother. She just works in a banquet in a hotel.
KW: So you mentioned that your family was born in Honduras. Do you ever have the opportunity to go back to Honduras?
YC: Oh yeah, all the time. Actually my parents were discussing with me if I wanted to go for the summer. I was kind of telling them not really because I really wanted to get classes done over the summer. But I definitely would think about it going maybe for Christmas again.
KW: How do you feel every time you go back? Do you feel like you are able to reconnect with your roots like you mentioned? Or what makes it so special?
YC: I don’t know, when I go to Honduras I feel like I am fulfilled. I don’t know why like I feel different when I am over there.
KW: In what ways?
YC: I feel like I am around people that understand me. Around people that have the same not only facial features. People that look like me but have the same interest. It’s just different, there are no words to describe it
KW: When you say interest and understanding. What exactly do you mean by interest and understanding?
YC: I mean we can tell each other jokes that I guess only people from that place would understand. There is just one joke…. I know that in America they have these 3D paintings that they do on the….like 2D paintings they do that they put 10 holes and then my cousins will be like "Oh is tres de aqui" because there is actually a real hole there. Is different.
Is like people here in the buses; they think its cramp but if they only knew over there how really cramp it gets. Its different things like you can talk about that people will not understand here
[00: 30:00] KW: I understand what you mean completely. How much of the actual population in Honduras speak English? Do you feel like they have a benefit, as a Hispanic do you feel you have a benefit being Honduran because they also speak English? Does it make it easier for you to transition your move from Honduras to the United States?
YC: What do you mean?
KW: You mentioned that some of the languages in Honduras are Spanish and English, and there is also an Indian.
YC: Yeah
KW: So since there is some of the basic knowledge in English in some of the areas in Honduras. Do you believe that is easier for Hondurans…. like Latinos that are from Honduras? Does the transition of moving from Honduras to the United States?
YC: Oh yeah, it is definitely easier. My brother he is an immigrants. Actually all of my siblings are immigrants. He was able to…. I think that one of my siblings was captured crossing the boarder and since he was able to speak English there was no way that they could trick him into signing any papers or anything. He wanted to speak to a lawyer and when he came over here. I think they gave him promotions bigger than other people who had been in different companies more because he could speak English
KW: You mentioned that he crossed the boarder, how difficult was that? Was he the only one in your family that did that?
YC: Most of my family members have done that
KW: Okay. How was that experience? Have you ever been related to such a thing?
YC: My sister. She always talks about she will never forget all the espinas de los cactuses that she got and didn’t realized until she got to Huston. She couldn’t believe how many espinas she had on her pierna. My brother talked about how he had never felt so much foot pain, because he decided to cross the boarder in converts. I don’t know why.
KW: Do you feel like that experience of crossing the boarder has change the way they see themselves?
YC: Obviously they are grateful. They try to do everything like now all my siblings and my parents are real. They try to do everything by the book and they try to like...They do everything, they try to live day by day because they don’t know when there days could be there last here. Try to take advantage of every opportunity they can
KW: Do you feel like most Latinos or most Hondurans try to take as much opportunities as they can while being in the United States or being in the state of North Carolina?
YC: I have..
KW: Like how have crossing the boarder affected them to the way they want to be able to take advantage of opportunities?
YC: Because it took them so much to get here I guess. They are more grateful that they are here. But I know that there is people that take that for granted. They go straight to work and they don’t even think about it and they just work, work, work, work. They don’t learn English and they don’t like…. Until they build their house and just leave.
[00: 33:32] KW: So what do you feel? What do you think you made your siblings feel different about that? What makes them be so grateful to wanting to learn English and wanting to fit more into the American lifestyle?
YC: Well I guess my siblings have always been interested in the American lifestyle because compare to most Honduras who come over here, my siblings have been pretty privileged. That’s what my mother would say. They went to private schools and they got the food that they wanted, and they got the clothes they wanted. When they crossed the boarder they realized that my ma was not going to help us, then they tried to take all the advantages that they could.
KW: So when they crossed the boarder, they did it alone?
YC: No, my she helped them but she told them that that my heritage, not my heritage. What is it called? Herencia para ti is helping you cross the boarder because she gave them all the options. You can either go to university privada con gastos pagados, buses included, and everything. Or you can cross the boarder but you chose one of the two and that would be my herencia para ti. But then she said after you do that and ya te quieres salir de la casa, you are on your own. So they did everything they could try to I guess live the way they lived in the past.
KW: While being here?
YC: While being here, yeah.
KW: How…. what do you feel it makes you different compare to your family that had to struggle so much coming here? You had the privilege to be born on this side of the boarder. How do you find yourself? Do you feel like you are any different then they are?
YC: Of course I feel different then they are because some times…. I would say do not have the same struggles that they have had. Sometimes the way I think its different then the way they think because they were raised over there.
KW: In what ways? How do you think they are different?
YC: I guess for my sisters, their number one priority is their family and their man. I do not think that; that is my number one priority. I have different number one priorities. Maybe is because I am not married yet and I don’t have a family yet. I don’t see that as my number one priority in life currently.
KW: What do you see as your number one priority?
YC: Well right now is to get my education.
[00:36: 29] KW: Do you… Is there anything else that you feel like is different? like that can make you different from being still considered a Latina but being born in the United States? Compared to your siblings and your mother that are considered to also Latinas but they were actually born in Honduras? Is there anything else that you guys don't think the same?
YC: There are many things, I just can’t think of any right now.
KW: Whether it has to do with the culture.
YC: Definitely culture and religion; definitely. I guess they are very conservative and I am very liberal. Like I am okay with gay marriage, but if you tell them…!Oh my God don’t!
I'm okay with tattoos, like if you wanted to get a tattoo I really don’t care. But if you tell them just wait… My mother will pour holy water on you. They are very conservative people.
KW: Why do you think that is? What do you think makes you guys so different?
YC: Well I guess here in the US is like very liberal. Everyone can do whatever they want and over in Honduras it was more like. Qué es?
KW: Traditional?
YC: Traditional, Latino Hispanic traditional. Since my siblings were in the private catholic schools, those traditions were insole in them.
[00:37:45] KW: So you defiantly see the difference between private education and public education?
YC: Yes.
KW: Did you go to private school when you were here before you attended Carolina?
YC: No.
KW: Do you feel like their way of interacting in the community is different then yours? Do they see differently when it comes to integrating in the community? Like in North Carolina?
YC: Yeah, I guess I can relate to anybody. Obvious if you… I don’t really care if you are gay or black. None of those things matter to me. For them, I feel like because they are Hispanic, not Hispanic… because they are a certain… They feel more confortable wit their own people. People who like relate to them, like if you see my friends they are more diverse than theirs.
KW: So they are not as opened minded as you are when it comes to friends and I guess community members?
YC: Yes.
KW: Is there anything that you would like to say or anything that you feel I could ask? Anything that could improve the responses? Is there anything that you would like to add to the interview when it comes to the Hispanic communities or the immigrant community as in general?
[00:39:25] YC: In general, Latinos should stick together period. If we want to advance as the people, then we need to stick together and understand that we have different roots and different views; but if we want to advance as the people here in America then we got to stick together. Get our message across.
KW: Together in what way? In what should we stick together?
YC: Together as in trying to put our differences aside and protest together… try to make laws together.
KW: You said protest towards what exactly?
YC: Things that we want.
KW: Such?
YC: Such as legalizing the 11 million undocumented people that are here and if we want to shut the boarders then shut them down. But we need to legalize, legalize people. Benefits I guess if you are going to legalize people; they need to have same benefits that American citizens have. Issues that preteen to the Hispanic communities.
KW: As in civil rights?
YC: Yes, just civil rights in general. If we… I know that there are immigration centers that are not clean and cold. They don’t treat people the same.
[00:40: 50] KW: Okay, so your talking about unfair treatments.
YC: Yes.
KW: To the Latino community?
YC: Yes.
KW: Have you ever experience any of those yourself?
YC: No. Not personality, no. But I hear people talking about it all the time here.
KW: People as in students or in the community?
YC: Just people in the community in general, friends and family.
[00:41:24] KW: Well thank you so much Yanexy for the wonderful interview. I really appreciate all of your responses and taking the time to meet with you to discuss and giving your opinion on this matter. I really appreciated.
YC: Your welcome Will see you tomorrow in Spanish class. Well actually I will see you later today, a las 4.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Estudiantes
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Yanexy Cardona menciona la experiencia migratoria de su familia como Hondureños cruzando la frontera entre México y los Estados Unidos. Además, ella define su identidad hondureña y como es diferente a otros países de Latinoamérica. Yanexy discute sobre lo que influenció a su familia a mudarse para el estado de Carolina del Norte y como ellos se han integrado a la comunidad. Ella expresa algunas de las dificultades que su familia a enfrentado como inmigrantes. Ella describe formas en que interactúa y participa para atraer sensibilización sobre la inmigración como estudiante de la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Yanexy Cardona por Katherinne Wawrzonek, 01 Marzo 2015, R-0802, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Identidad; Familia; Ciudadanía e inmigración; Trabajo y empleo; Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill
Es: Transcripción
Katherinne Wawrzonek: Hello, this is Katherinne Wawrzonek and I am getting ready to record Yanexy Cardona about her experience as an immigrant and interacting in community in North Carolina. Okay Yanexy tell me a little bit about yourself.
Yanexy Cardona: Well, I am 19 years old. I have lived in Durham in North Carolina and I am a sophomore at UNC Chapel Hill.
Katherinne Wawrzonek: Where are you originally from?
Yanexy Cardona: So, I was born in Miami, Florida but my parents are from Honduras.
[00:00:45] KW: How do you identify yourself as a Latina? What are three things or four things that you mainly identify as a Latina? Like how do you identify yourself as a Latina?
YC: Well, I guess a Latina o Latino would be someone that their origins are from Latin America. It doesn’t necessary have to be like you know…just like South America. It doesn’t have to be someone Spanish speaking…you could be Brazilian, black, Latino because you are from Latin America.
KW: Okay, What are three things that identifies you as Honduran?
YC: Well, you have to have your roots from that place. I feel like that’s one. I guess, two is like to speak one of the Languages, maybe Spanish and there is also the indigenous language of guarifuna. Also, they speak English there some times.
KW: When you say roots, what do you mean by roots?
YC: When I say roots I mean that you are either born there or your ancestry is from there.
[00:02:23] KW: Okay, what composes that? What aspects of your culture or maybe traditions? Things that you do that identify you differently as a Honduran compare to Colombian or Mexican?
YC: A lot of people when they think of Latin America they tend to think of just Mexico, but that actually completely wrong. Latin America is composed of different cultures. For example, in Honduras they have their national dances like Punta, which is kind of rooted back to the indigenous/ African ancestry when men shake their hips and the drums roll. Also, the different types of food; I know that there are paliadas are not really known in Mexico or Colombia. Different places have food. The people, there are different facial features that you can use to tell people from different regions. Also, nationalism; I guess that you identify and you understand certain people. I know that in South America Simon Bolivar is very famous and respected, but for us in Honduras is more of Francisco Morazán because he liberated us.
KW: That is interesting. So it's not just about the culture but it also has to do with traditions, history and I guess family as well. Do you think your family is different then other Latin American families? If so, in what ways?
YC: Obliviously, there is different regions that have their different special words
KW: okay.
YC: Like I know for us there is maje, which is kind of like a person. Is like for Mexican is "way". Just little different languages…not languages but little words.
KW: Like dialect?
YC: Dialects, yeah but like …yeah I guess you can call it a dialect. It’s like different words that like people from that region hear and be like…!Oh that person said that word so they must be from that region because they said it!
[00:04:44] KW: So you mentioned that you were born in Miami but your parents were from Honduras. What made you guys move to North Carolina? Why did you choose this state, the city of Carrboro and this area?
YC: Okay, so my father got a job promotion here in North Carolina. He was working for a construction company and so he moved us here because of that. He wanted to get a hire… earn more money. He also did some research and learned that the cost of living is lower here.
KW: How has these opportunities with your dad's employment has benefit you guys in the long run?
YC: Well I know that in Miami, where I used to live. I had to share a room with my parents because we were not able to really afford a house. The houses over there….If you want a decent house and in a good neighborhood they are 200 thousand and above. Here they were able to buy a house and I was able to get my room. There are more financial opportunities here then in a big huge ginormous city.
KW: Have you seen any difference in Education?
YC: Yeah, obviously over there is a bigger city so classrooms are bigger. I remember I was in kinder garner with like 35 other children and there was one teacher or teacher assistant. Then, when I came here for middle school and high school it was much smaller. There was only 15 or 20.
KW: How did you feel like that benefit you in the long run?
[00:06:15] YC: I felt like I could connect with the teacher more. I felt like the teachers were more one on one. You could like establish a better relationship with them.
KW: How has this relationship benefit you in the long run? These connections, have they helped you become better in any kind of way or have they helped you achieve more in the academics?
YC: When I was in Miami I was suffering. If you asked me when I was little what my favorite subject was, I would have not said math or science because I hated those so much. Then, when I got here I was really good at math and science. I guess because I was more confortable with the teachers. Also, they actually try to have a good relationship with you. I don’t know if it’s the way they teach or if it’s more one on one. I understand the material better here.
KW: How are.. How is your relationship with the community? Are you very active? Is it hard for you to interact or integrate in the community as a Hispanic or Latina?
YC: Well I was in the community. I am very busy because I have like a job now. But before I was active in these organizations like SUIE and CHISPA. I’m actually trying to go back to those times. I am actually trying to go to the Cultura committee in CHISPA and like participated in like Noche Latina. Maybe in prompts or something but I have to talk to the members of the organization first.
KW: So you said you used to be more active with this organization but now you are not as much because of your work. What exactly did you used to do in these organizations? Like before work. For example, SUIE.
YC: In SUIE, I would always like if they had an event. I would always help out. I would always give ideas. I would always go to the meeting. I would establish better relationship, better friendships.
[00:08:26] KW: What kind of events did you helped in?
YC: In SUIE, there is a day in the life of an immigrant. It’s like a simulation where we gave out people either a special shape. They didn’t know what the shape represented, it was like a square and a circle. If you got the square you were undocumented. If you got a circle you had documentation, you were documented. So depending, you would go to different stations and depending on what you was, you got treated different.
KW: In what aspect were you treated different?
YC: So for example, in like hospitals. One of the simulations was that if you were undocumented you couldn’t really go to the hospital because you were afraid of the medical bills. So you would go somewhere else and you would delay your treatment. But since the other people were documented, then they easily when to the hospital and got treated faster. Another example, there was another station for the police. So, if you were undocumented you could face deportation. Then other station was schools, obliviously if you are undocumented you don’t have many options to go to hire your education.
KW: What about the other organization that you mentioned like CHISPA. What were some of the events you participated in?
YC: CHISPA, I Remember that I did this thing call Carnaval at the end of the year. I just helped set up something’s. Basically go to the meeting and put what I thought about some of the events.
[00:10:15] KW: What are some of the events that happened in Carnaval? Could you go into more detail?
YC: Yeah, sure. In the Carnaval the fraternity and sorority do their little dances. You got your face painted with like your flag from where you were from. They had food, cake and it’s just like a celebration.
KW: Did you see a lot of different diversities in these events?
YC: Of course, we also painted some of the flags that we had there. Yeah, of course we saw all kinds of people. It wasn't just like all Hispanics or Latino people. It was like Americans, not American. White people, African-American, Asians and everyone was there. Well not everyone but you know, different types of people.
KW: But this Carnaval focused mainly on the Latinos identity?
YC: Yes, like a celebration of the Hispanic culture.
KW: How did you feel like the Americans, the African-American and Asians related themselves to this Carnival? How did they react to some of the events that happened within the Carnival?
YC: Oh, like they loved it. I guess is because it’s exotic or different. They participated and got their face painted with like different flags. They danced.
KW: As a daughter of an immigrant, how do you see or do you see any different in the way your parents are treated when they try to interact within the community? What are their challenges that you feel they have as immigrants since they actually were not being born here, but as an immigrant to the North Carolina State?
YC: So, I guess when they came here to North Carolina State they already had…I think since I was 3 or 4 they were already documented. So I don’t know of any or I can’t think of anything of top of my head where they were discriminated. But I know there is people who are because they are undocumented. They got pulled over and they had through go to immigration court and they just got deported.
[00:12:32] KW: When you say these people, do you mean friends of your family?
YC: Yes! Yes family and other family members.
KW: Like could you go into more detail?
YC: Like an example of this is my cousin. I think last week they like, I don’t know if it was racial profiling or they stopped him. They stopped him. I don’t know if he was speeding? (She was talking to herself) I don’t know the exact story, but they stopped him and he was undocumented so obviously he didn’t have a license. Now he is in immigration court currently, they put him in jail and then they…I guess figured out that he didn’t have documents. Now then….Now he is in immigration court and they might… I am pretty sure they are going to deport him.
KW: So how is this affecting your family knowing that one of your relatives are going through such a difficult time because of not having a legal status within the United States?
YC: It is horrible. I know my mom cried because she felt like she was responsible for him. He is 21 so she felt like she was responsible for him. I guess she feels bad because she was supposed to be responsible for him. This was not suppose to happen to him so I guess this is just hard for the family.
KW: Is he your mom’s nephew? Or is it your dad's? When you say cousin.
YC: Mom.
KW: Is it through your mom's sister or brother?
YC: Mom's brother.
KW: How close are you to him? What's his name?
YC: His name is Fernando.
KW: How… Are you close to Fernando?
YC: Oh yeah. When he was in Honduras like I would hang out with him all the time because we are so close in age. When he was here we would go out all the time.
KW: So how does that affect you directly?
YC: Well I feel sad that he has to get deported.
KW: Do you know for sure that he is going to get deported?
YC: I mean..
KW: Is there any kind of waiver or anything that he could be able to apply? Have you spoken to a lawyer?
YC: Yeah, we have done that.
KW: There is no chances for that?
YC: They told us to write letter and say that he is a good person but they don’t have…we don’t have lots of hope.
[00:15:07] KW: What other challenges do you feel like your family has faced whether is direct or indirectly as an immigrant in the United States?
YC: Well obviously if you have DACA, then you cant have a decent job. You can't get education or it's harder to get education. So, I feel like just closes us to so many opportunities that you can have here. It just keeps us on this cycle.
KW: What do you mean this cycle?
YC: It's kind of like…I feel like we as Latinos have this little cycle where we are not documented. So we don’t get education, we have children early, and then I guess our children see that we did the something. So then they want to do the same thing and it’s just like this little cycle.
KW: So how important is it for immigrants to try to interact within the community to that they can get to know the law, but also like you mention the work and education opportunities. Because if you are undocumented your resources are kind of limited but don’t you…how do you think is important for them to interact so that they can learn what other opportunities are there for them?
YC: Well I know like when they try to interact within the community there are different organizations. Like I know that there are people who give free advise or undocumented lawyers. There is also people that I know in churches that give and have different programs for like education to teach people how to speak English.
KW: Have your family ever taken any of those courses or any other programs?
YC: I guess when my dad was in Miami. They had this community college had ESL programs and that’s how he learned English.
KW: Are both of your parents fluent?
YC: My dad is definitely fluent. I feel like my mom understands but her grammatical structure isn’t that well, but she definitely understands it.
KW: So how does your mom understand by not being able to speak correctly? Does it limit her opportunities here opportunities here in North Carolina?
YC: Well North Carolina…mi mamá se confío mucho when she was living in Florida, because everyone spoke Spanish. She didn't aprovecho de las oportunidades. So then when she came here the majority of the people here is the opposite. They speak English so she missed out on like a lot of maybe promotion and job opportunities, because she is not able to express herself correctly in English.
KW: Is she currently doing anything to change that in any kind of way?
YC: No, not really.
KW: What is her… I guess job title currently? Is she currently employed?
YC: Yes, she is employed. She works at this… at a hotel with banquets. So like just say there is an event of a quince, sweet sixteen, quinceañera or like a business meeting; she is in charge of the people who are organizing the food for those events.
[00:19:02] KW: Does she mainly work with other Latinos?
YC: Yes.
KW: Okay, so she has mainly… her connections are through other Hispanics more then they are with Americans.
YC: Yes.
KW: How important do you think is for them to I guess… for Hispanics to like stay together within the state or within the community, so that they are able to not limited themselves with opportunities that are offer to any other Americans?
YC: Well power comes in numbers, obviously if the people don’t stick together or in a group then people are not going to take them seriously.
KW: So going back to what you mentioned about the roots, the culture and the dances. How do you see North Carolina like impacting that area of your Honduran, I guess identity? Like being a Hispanic in an American community?
YC: Well I guess since we are here in North Carolina is kind of harder. I know there’s like…I guess they do with the majority of the Hispanic population does which is mostly for me, I think it’s Mexican. So there is like a lot of Mexican stores and I feel like the only way Hondurans come is when it there’s different parties and nightclubs… I guess bring the Honduran groups, like dancing groups to these places.
KW: What about food wise? Do you feel like that is limited as well for Hondurans? Even if it is, I mean do you feel like its limited as Carrboro/ Chapel hill area or in the state of North Carolina? Have you not found a place that you can connect to your Honduran roots? Maybe like an international supermarket in Raleigh?
YC: well I don’t know of any areas near Carrboro/ Chapel Hill area. I know that there is a store here, I think there is like one but it just reminds me more of the Mexican culture. But I know that there is international supermarkets like what you said, an international supermarket where I can get a soda that's from Honduras and I will drink it and it reminds me of when I go visit there. I know that there is like restaurants that are like Salvadorian or Central American, where I can get the paliadas and the type of food.
KW: Talking about baleadas, what exactly is a baleadas? Like what is that?
YC: It’s like a tortilla de arina and frijol. There's different, there is simple and there is especial. Simple solamente tienen quezo, crema y frijoles fritos. La especial you add simple mas huevos revueltos y carne.
KW: Now are you able to have baleadas at homes? Does your mom?
YC: Yes! Of course. I bring my friends over and they love it! I know I brought my roommate over one time when my mom was making baleadas. She is like bring me again.
[00:22: 30] KW: That's too funny. I get excited when I get to try Colombian food as well, lord yes
[laughs]
Talk to me about what you said about your family moving here because of the cost of living. Do you…. How do you relate yourself to that? Do you feel like having a lower cost of living in North Carolina it is easier for Hispanics to be able to maintain themselves within the state or within a specific social status?
YC: Yes I feel like since it cost less to live here compare to bigger cities. A lot of the Hispanics communities are coming over here because is like.. Obviously if you are undocumented you don’t get a lot of like very well…very good jobs like lawyers, doctors or even jobs…I guess that have bachelor degree get. So coming over here where the cost of living is cheaper, it is beneficial for them. Especially because the types of jobs that they get.
KW: When you say a lot. Do you mean… Do you personally know a lot of people that have been moving here from other states?
YC: Yes, most of the people that I know are from different places. They are like from Los Angeles, Miami, Chicago and they come here when they are like in high school or middle school because of job opportunities that their parents get.
KW: So you feel that the main purpose for moving to the state of North Carolina is for job opportunities?
YC: I feel like yeah.
[00:24: 02] KW: What kind of job opportunities have you heard of these people obtain as they moved to this state of North Carolina?
YC: Companies that they have been working for have a job here in North Carolina. Like big jobs that takes like 3 to 5 years to complete, maybe is like a construction job so they end up coming here. Then they end up liking it here so they just decide to stay.
KW: Have you seen mostly of the people doing construction then anything else?
YC: Yeah.
KW: Oh okay. You mentioned that you used too volunteer within the community but now you are working. Could you elaborate about like your job and what it is that you do?
YC: Okay, so I work for the center of dramatic art. I just like sort like through like color.... well there is like a theater in there. Its like the classroom where people who are in UNC, when they want to be theater majors, they go there. So there is a theater there so iI sort through different color lights and do simple task like that.
KW: How is this work of yours connection implementing ways for you to be able to move forward as a Latina in the community or within the future? Do you think this job will give you better job opportunities within the future?
YC: Well I guess having a job in college looks good in a transcript because you have experience. I know that there are some people that just study and they don’t want to go out and at least try to do something that is related to the real work. Actually it kind of motivates me because I don’t really like the job so it motivates me to get a better job. So I’m just like, this is just the beginning.
KW: So, I remember you mentioning that your dad is fluent. So by seeing your mom that has just a basic understanding of English and your dad being fluent. Do you find them in a different level when it comes interacting with the community or having a more establish social or financial situation?
YC: Oh yeah, my dad definitely earns more then my mother. My dad…. when it came to teachers, my dad would talk to the teacher so I guess he was more social.
KW: When you said teachers. What exactly does your dad do?
YC: When I am in what?
KW: You mentioned that when your dad talked to the teacher, and he would be more social.
YC: Just like more social period like in the community. If someone said something to him, he would like in English. He could reply back
[00: 27:12] KW: What exactly does your dad do when it comes to employment?
YC: So he works in a refinery, which is making gasoline.
KW: That's cool. Do you ever go see him?
KW: Yeah, I go see him all the time at his job. He has like a little office and then he goes out and mixed chemicals. He has this station; I think he works at this refinery Exxon. I guess like he has…. obviously he has a better paying job then my mother. She just works in a banquet in a hotel.
KW: So you mentioned that your family was born in Honduras. Do you ever have the opportunity to go back to Honduras?
YC: Oh yeah, all the time. Actually my parents were discussing with me if I wanted to go for the summer. I was kind of telling them not really because I really wanted to get classes done over the summer. But I definitely would think about it going maybe for Christmas again.
KW: How do you feel every time you go back? Do you feel like you are able to reconnect with your roots like you mentioned? Or what makes it so special?
YC: I don’t know, when I go to Honduras I feel like I am fulfilled. I don’t know why like I feel different when I am over there.
KW: In what ways?
YC: I feel like I am around people that understand me. Around people that have the same not only facial features. People that look like me but have the same interest. It’s just different, there are no words to describe it
KW: When you say interest and understanding. What exactly do you mean by interest and understanding?
YC: I mean we can tell each other jokes that I guess only people from that place would understand. There is just one joke…. I know that in America they have these 3D paintings that they do on the….like 2D paintings they do that they put 10 holes and then my cousins will be like "Oh is tres de aqui" because there is actually a real hole there. Is different.
Is like people here in the buses; they think its cramp but if they only knew over there how really cramp it gets. Its different things like you can talk about that people will not understand here
[00: 30:00] KW: I understand what you mean completely. How much of the actual population in Honduras speak English? Do you feel like they have a benefit, as a Hispanic do you feel you have a benefit being Honduran because they also speak English? Does it make it easier for you to transition your move from Honduras to the United States?
YC: What do you mean?
KW: You mentioned that some of the languages in Honduras are Spanish and English, and there is also an Indian.
YC: Yeah
KW: So since there is some of the basic knowledge in English in some of the areas in Honduras. Do you believe that is easier for Hondurans…. like Latinos that are from Honduras? Does the transition of moving from Honduras to the United States?
YC: Oh yeah, it is definitely easier. My brother he is an immigrants. Actually all of my siblings are immigrants. He was able to…. I think that one of my siblings was captured crossing the boarder and since he was able to speak English there was no way that they could trick him into signing any papers or anything. He wanted to speak to a lawyer and when he came over here. I think they gave him promotions bigger than other people who had been in different companies more because he could speak English
KW: You mentioned that he crossed the boarder, how difficult was that? Was he the only one in your family that did that?
YC: Most of my family members have done that
KW: Okay. How was that experience? Have you ever been related to such a thing?
YC: My sister. She always talks about she will never forget all the espinas de los cactuses that she got and didn’t realized until she got to Huston. She couldn’t believe how many espinas she had on her pierna. My brother talked about how he had never felt so much foot pain, because he decided to cross the boarder in converts. I don’t know why.
KW: Do you feel like that experience of crossing the boarder has change the way they see themselves?
YC: Obviously they are grateful. They try to do everything like now all my siblings and my parents are real. They try to do everything by the book and they try to like...They do everything, they try to live day by day because they don’t know when there days could be there last here. Try to take advantage of every opportunity they can
KW: Do you feel like most Latinos or most Hondurans try to take as much opportunities as they can while being in the United States or being in the state of North Carolina?
YC: I have..
KW: Like how have crossing the boarder affected them to the way they want to be able to take advantage of opportunities?
YC: Because it took them so much to get here I guess. They are more grateful that they are here. But I know that there is people that take that for granted. They go straight to work and they don’t even think about it and they just work, work, work, work. They don’t learn English and they don’t like…. Until they build their house and just leave.
[00: 33:32] KW: So what do you feel? What do you think you made your siblings feel different about that? What makes them be so grateful to wanting to learn English and wanting to fit more into the American lifestyle?
YC: Well I guess my siblings have always been interested in the American lifestyle because compare to most Honduras who come over here, my siblings have been pretty privileged. That’s what my mother would say. They went to private schools and they got the food that they wanted, and they got the clothes they wanted. When they crossed the boarder they realized that my ma was not going to help us, then they tried to take all the advantages that they could.
KW: So when they crossed the boarder, they did it alone?
YC: No, my she helped them but she told them that that my heritage, not my heritage. What is it called? Herencia para ti is helping you cross the boarder because she gave them all the options. You can either go to university privada con gastos pagados, buses included, and everything. Or you can cross the boarder but you chose one of the two and that would be my herencia para ti. But then she said after you do that and ya te quieres salir de la casa, you are on your own. So they did everything they could try to I guess live the way they lived in the past.
KW: While being here?
YC: While being here, yeah.
KW: How…. what do you feel it makes you different compare to your family that had to struggle so much coming here? You had the privilege to be born on this side of the boarder. How do you find yourself? Do you feel like you are any different then they are?
YC: Of course I feel different then they are because some times…. I would say do not have the same struggles that they have had. Sometimes the way I think its different then the way they think because they were raised over there.
KW: In what ways? How do you think they are different?
YC: I guess for my sisters, their number one priority is their family and their man. I do not think that; that is my number one priority. I have different number one priorities. Maybe is because I am not married yet and I don’t have a family yet. I don’t see that as my number one priority in life currently.
KW: What do you see as your number one priority?
YC: Well right now is to get my education.
[00:36: 29] KW: Do you… Is there anything else that you feel like is different? like that can make you different from being still considered a Latina but being born in the United States? Compared to your siblings and your mother that are considered to also Latinas but they were actually born in Honduras? Is there anything else that you guys don't think the same?
YC: There are many things, I just can’t think of any right now.
KW: Whether it has to do with the culture.
YC: Definitely culture and religion; definitely. I guess they are very conservative and I am very liberal. Like I am okay with gay marriage, but if you tell them…!Oh my God don’t!
I'm okay with tattoos, like if you wanted to get a tattoo I really don’t care. But if you tell them just wait… My mother will pour holy water on you. They are very conservative people.
KW: Why do you think that is? What do you think makes you guys so different?
YC: Well I guess here in the US is like very liberal. Everyone can do whatever they want and over in Honduras it was more like. Qué es?
KW: Traditional?
YC: Traditional, Latino Hispanic traditional. Since my siblings were in the private catholic schools, those traditions were insole in them.
[00:37:45] KW: So you defiantly see the difference between private education and public education?
YC: Yes.
KW: Did you go to private school when you were here before you attended Carolina?
YC: No.
KW: Do you feel like their way of interacting in the community is different then yours? Do they see differently when it comes to integrating in the community? Like in North Carolina?
YC: Yeah, I guess I can relate to anybody. Obvious if you… I don’t really care if you are gay or black. None of those things matter to me. For them, I feel like because they are Hispanic, not Hispanic… because they are a certain… They feel more confortable wit their own people. People who like relate to them, like if you see my friends they are more diverse than theirs.
KW: So they are not as opened minded as you are when it comes to friends and I guess community members?
YC: Yes.
KW: Is there anything that you would like to say or anything that you feel I could ask? Anything that could improve the responses? Is there anything that you would like to add to the interview when it comes to the Hispanic communities or the immigrant community as in general?
[00:39:25] YC: In general, Latinos should stick together period. If we want to advance as the people, then we need to stick together and understand that we have different roots and different views; but if we want to advance as the people here in America then we got to stick together. Get our message across.
KW: Together in what way? In what should we stick together?
YC: Together as in trying to put our differences aside and protest together… try to make laws together.
KW: You said protest towards what exactly?
YC: Things that we want.
KW: Such?
YC: Such as legalizing the 11 million undocumented people that are here and if we want to shut the boarders then shut them down. But we need to legalize, legalize people. Benefits I guess if you are going to legalize people; they need to have same benefits that American citizens have. Issues that preteen to the Hispanic communities.
KW: As in civil rights?
YC: Yes, just civil rights in general. If we… I know that there are immigration centers that are not clean and cold. They don’t treat people the same.
[00:40: 50] KW: Okay, so your talking about unfair treatments.
YC: Yes.
KW: To the Latino community?
YC: Yes.
KW: Have you ever experience any of those yourself?
YC: No. Not personality, no. But I hear people talking about it all the time here.
KW: People as in students or in the community?
YC: Just people in the community in general, friends and family.
[00:41:24] KW: Well thank you so much Yanexy for the wonderful interview. I really appreciate all of your responses and taking the time to meet with you to discuss and giving your opinion on this matter. I really appreciated.
YC: Your welcome Will see you tomorrow in Spanish class. Well actually I will see you later today, a las 4.
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
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R-0802 -- Cardona, Yanexy.
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Yanexy Cardona mentions her family’s immigration experience as Hondurans crossing the Mexican-American border. In addition, she defines her Honduran identity and how it is different from other Latin American countries. Yanexy discusses what influenced her family to move to North Carolina and how they have integrated with the community. She discusses some of the challenges her family had to face as immigrants. She describes ways she has interacted and participated to bring immigration awareness on campus as a student of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
01 March 2015
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
R0802_Audio.mp3
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/26866">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/ee35c402e6adb6b061406cfedde260b6.mp3
6a44bc44408bbdbd668fb639b13ba450
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/d3f3170a7f234598f30391d1b0ff825d.pdf
f5e361ecdcb624499914f9197cd3ebae
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0811
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
18 March 2015
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Islas, Alma.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Students
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1992
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Mexico City -- Mexico
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Chapel Hill -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-99.1275 19.4283333),1992,1;POINT(-80.89229569999998 35.08320139999999),1998,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Schliewe, Kayla.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Alma Islas discusses her experience coming to North Carolina from Mexico City at the age of six. She discusses her family’s work in Mexico and the motives behind migrating to the United States. She speaks about the identity struggle she felt since arriving and her conflicts about being Mexican on paper, but feeling more American in practice. She talks about her long-term goals and then the goals of her father and three siblings. She works two part-time jobs to help finance her education, and also works with SUIE (Students United for Immigrant Equality), an on-campus organization. Alma highlights the importance education has had in her life. She discusses the private education system in Mexico and mentioned that language was often a barrier for her growing up. She discusses DACA, and how that affects her both in a legal sense and emotionally. She discusses her life as an undocumented student and talks about the few options she has towards filing for citizenship.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Alma Islas by Kayla Schliewe, 18 March 2015, R-0811, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/26851
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Higher Education; Identity; Citizenship and immigration; Language and communication; DREAMers and DACA
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Kayla Schliewe: Ok this is Kayla Schliewe interviewing Alma Islas on Wednesday March 18th at 9:07am. We are conducting the interview in the Undergraduate Library on the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill campus.
Alma could you begin by telling me a little bit about yourself, such as where you’re from and how you got to Chapel Hill?
Alma Islas: Well, like you said, my name is Alma Islas and I am from Mexico City. I arrived to North Carolina when I was six years old, and I lived in Pineville North Carolina ever since. I went to Wayne Community College shortly after graduating High School. After receiving my Associates degree, I was accepted to the University of North Carolina. However, I had to take a year off due to the constraints of not having enough aid...financial aid. And then here I am, a year later, after taking a year off. I am a junior here, a Public Policy Major and Entrepreneurship Minor.
KS: What made your family come here when you were age six?
AI: When I was age six, my family actually had, they had a very steady job. Both my parents worked for a bus company in Mexico City. It was a thriving company and then unfortunately, due to corruption in Mexico, the president, like the government, found out how good the company was doing and decided to take over. Then a lot of corruption and things started happening. My father was a supervisor in the company, and he noticed a lot of things were not legal and corrupt. He basically started ri—not riots, but strikes with more of his colleges and decided to stand up to the government. That of course went wrong, and my dad ended up without having a job. So he decided to come to America for a year to just get some money, and then bring it back home and still live in Mexico. But after being here for a year, he realized that getting money was a whole lot easier here than in Mexico
KS: Mhmm
AI: So he decided to send for us and bring us over to North Carolina.
KS: Do you remember anything from living in Mexico City?
AI: I remember very little. Unfortunately, I have very little memories
KS: Yeah
AI: But I do have a lot with my family, more than anything.
KS: Mhmm. We were just talking about this earlier, but how do you identify yourself. Like, on paper? Yeah.
AI: You know, on paper I always tend to say I am Mexican. Although I do have a deep appreciation for my culture, I honestly don’t feel like a Mexican. I feel like I am just as American as anyone else who was born and raised here. Although I wasn’t born here, six years, that are my first few 6 years of my life, I was not engaged at all in the American way. I feel like I have been…. I have been doing, practicing, the American things. I definitely feel American.
KS: Right. Have your Mexican roots provided any barriers or obstacles so far?
AI: I would say so. Like the first obstacles that I had to encounter were when I started 1st grade as a six year old. I did go to a…I went to private school in Mexico, so I did know a little bit of English. But just to give you a quick example of the way they taught us there: “January,” that’s how you say it correct? In Mexico, they would teach us “January”. (han-war-ee). I was already kind of a little disadvantaged because of the teachers. They did know English, but it wasn’t as fluently as you would use it here in America. So one of my first obstacles was the language. Then, all growing up I was always seen as the minority. I was always seen as somewhat of an outsider, but that’s not how I felt. That was kind of… still is a little bit of a--I wouldn’t call it per say a struggle, it’s just kind of been a little bit of a maybe… Yes, like a small obstacle. Obstacles and struggles are the same thing. I am feeling like I am an outsider, or people make me feel like I am an outsider, but me not feeling that way. That’s been the hardest thing.
KS: Mhmm. So its like how you perceive yourself versus how like society perceives you.
AI: That’s correct.
KS: So what are you long-term goals, like dreams and ambitions? That could be career, family, anything.
AI: Well, my long-term goals are to work in education, particularly policy making. I, being a first generation student and an immigrant, have developed a very strong passion for seeking higher education. Unfortunately I wasn’t, I didn’t have anyone to look up to help me, you know. “What do you do to go to college?” “What’s the next step?” “How do you do this?” “How do you do that and the other?” I realized that there’s a strong demand in helping other first generation students like myself-or not even that. Maybe could be also having really good income, but your parents just aren’t there for you. Just helping anyone in general to seek a higher education is where my true passion lies.
KS: Mhmm. Are these different dreams or goals than your parents, did they have any interest in education,
AI: Absolutely. That’s actually one of the primary reasons why my dad sent over for us. He wanted us to have like a steady life and have a really good education. Which is why in Mexico, we went to a private school. He has always valued education. He unfortunately, his dad died when he was ten years old. He had…he really…his dream was to become a doctor. But having seven other siblings, he just ended up not going to school and going to job field. That’s why my dad really values education. He always harped on us how to do well in school, and supported us all the way through.
KS: What would you… or how would you define “the American Dream?”
We hear all the time, you know. Throw it around, but what does it actually mean to you?
AI: That--I’ve been asked that question quite a few times and it’s always a difficult answer. Because in my eyes, the American dream is an opportunity for you to be better--a better life. So basic—it depends… I feel like it varies from person to person. But in my particular experience, the American Dream, to me, is to be able to come from a country where there is corruption to be able to have a future. Whatever it is that I want to do. For me, the future is education and hopefully to be a role model for someone.
KS: This is going to be easy! How has education played a role in your attempts to obtaining your degree?
AI: I think education is not just a matter of getting education in school. I think you can be educated from the workforce or anything that you allow yourself to learn from. I would say that education has played an enormous part in me getting my degree because it has allowed me to learn a diversified number of things. From teachers, from other students, and just basically soaking up as much information and as many things as I can to be successful. And learn from others mistakes, as well as my own.
KS: What else besides taking courses here at the University do you get involved in?
AI: I’m involved in SUIE (Students United for Immigrant Equality). I have two other part time jobs, so that’s where most of my time goes. Between SUIE and my two other jobs. As of now, that’s the only thing I would say I am a part of.
KS: And what do you do with SUIE, and if you would like to say, what are your part-time jobs? Are they related?
AI: SUIE, we do a lot. We have been working on events. Currently, we are working on Immigration Awareness Week. We have also gone out to a moral march. Those are the kinds of events that SUIE has been involved with, and I try to participate in as many things as SUIE has going on. My part time jobs: the first one is working at the Franklin Hotel. I am a server in the restaurant for the breakfast service, and my second part time job is being a babysitter for a little girl around here in Chapel Hill.
KS: Mhmm. Switching topics a little bit. I’m interested in finding out more about how the DREAM act or Obama’s deferred actions can play affect on helping people obtain their dreams or goals. So have either of these helped you out? Or are they unrelated?
AI: Personally, I am an undocumented student. Having undocumented status has been heavy on me receiving my education. As soon as I graduated High School, I panicked a little and thought that I was not going to be able to go to school because at the time the laws were a little vague. They weren’t sure whether to allow undocumented students into the university system, or even in the community college system. Fortunately, I was able to enroll in community college. But let’s say that I wasn’t able to, due to my status. I would say that it would’ve been very hard for me. Devastating. Because it means I would have had to enter the work force and suppressed an opportunity for me to excel in life. I think for Obama to, or for the next president, to have a reform. If a DREAM act came true, would mean a lot, and would actually put a lot of kids into a better education. Which can lead to better work life and more money for the economy
KS: Mhmm. Is that why you work two jobs? Is there financial stress…
AI: Yes
KS: …for you to come to the university?
AI: One of the things about the American Dream that I mentioned before: Yes, a lot of people have conceptions, like myself, that you can come here and be who you want to be. But unfortunately, in America, the way of life is if you don’t have money, or you unfortunately don’t have documented status, you are very limited to what you can do. The American Dream per say, gets crutched a lot, or comes with many obstacles for you to obtain when you a documented status.
KS: Do your parents have undocumented status as well
AI: No
KS: Oh okay, I was going to see if that has…or actually.. Has even their identity provided any obstacles for them as well? Even though they have documentation-has just their identity played a part?
AI: Can you explain that question a little? I don’t think I am understanding it.
KS: Sure! That’s fine. I wanted, because obviously, or it’s more obvious, that sometimes without documentation there are limitations: such as sources for funding. But is just having a Hispanic or Mexican Identity, has that held your parents back at all? Or do you think that America has kind of come past that a little bit?
AI: I think maybe, in some ways, it has been somewhat of a setback for them just because their English. They do speak English, but they have a thick accent. However, sometimes people just look at it, “oh you don’t speak English,” and they kind of look at them a little different or with a less regard. I think both of them show that they are, you know, adequate people for the job or for whatever they’re setting themselves up for. I would say yes, that them being Mexican and having a thick accent has set them back a little. I would definitely say that America has not surpassed the fact that someone is a different color, then they can do just the same thing as anyone else, just because of that.
KS: The language barrier?
AI: Mhmm.
KS: And what do your parents do here? Your dad was the supervisor back in Mexico City. So does…
AI: He works in construction and my mother works at a McDonalds restaurant.
KS: Mhmm ok. Does…do you have any siblings or others that go to school as well/ Do they have the same dreams and goals as you?
AI: I have three other siblings. I have one, the youngest one she was born here. She hopes to be a teacher. She is only a freshman, so perhaps that will change. She is still young. If not, then good for her. That’s awesome. My other sister, she wants to be a nurse. She is also undocumented like myself, and then my older brother he wants to be a nutritionist
KS: Wow.
AI: He is going to school right now at Wayne Community College
KS: Awesome! So does he have plans to come to the University?
AI: Yes, he is actually planning on transferring to ECU in the fall.
KS: Mhmm, that’s nice. What would make the transition into academia easier for undocumented? What would be the—if we could just fix one problem, what would it be?
AI: Quite frankly, it would be great for us to just be granted document status. But I do see, because of the political arena right now, it’s probably not a possibility. If we could just fix a lesser thing than that, I would just say for there to be an executive order or just a law that would allow undocumented student to receive their education and be able to rehearse that education by receiving a job afterwards.
KS: If you were still in Mexico City, how do you think your life would be?
AI: I really think its kind of hard for me to imagine life in Mexico because I know very little about it. I don’t… the only things I do know is from what I hear from my relatives back home. I like to make the best of every situation in any setting I am in. I think I would probably still be in school, but I think it would definitely be a whole lot harder for me to have put myself through school just because in Mexico, it’s a whole lot more expensive to be in school. It’s not kind of an equal opportunity as much as it is here in America in order for you to receive that. And I say equal opportunity, but then at the same time its not really equal, because a lot of undocumented students aren’t getting that equality here.
KS: Do you ever plan to go back maybe and visit your family? Or you maintain communication with them?
AI: Oh, we maintain very good communication. However, I do. I hope to be able to. It all just depends if I get permission from immigration, and all that good stuff. If I would get permission, I would definitely hop on a plane and go as soon as possible.
KS: And what’s the process of getting permission? What does that entail?
AI: Well currently, because I fall under DACA (Deferred action for Childhood Arrivals), I can file for advanced parole, which would give me permission to go to Mexico. But it has to…its only for a few number of reasons. One of them would be if a relative back home is sick and has an illness. Then, they could probably give me permission to do that. Another way that I can think of going to Mexico from advanced parole is if I have a job and they send me over there, or if I do a study abroad experience in Mexico.
KS: The DACA, that if I understand this, that’s not citizen. So, is there a pathway for citizenship coming for you along the way, do you think?
AI: I don’t necessarily see one. I know I probably have to do more research. I have done a fair amount of research and there’s nothing out there for me particularly, unless I marry an American citizen. But of course, I won’t force myself to fall in love with a citizen. But if that does happen, that’s great because I could get my citizenship and legal status that way. But as the way the law stands right now, there’s just no path for me.
KS: So what is that like? It’s something I don’t understand or experience, but what does that feel like to be an undocumented and knowing that you might be that way for a couple years?
AI: The most fearful thing is that I could remain this status for the rest of my life, which is kind of scary. Being undocumented, like I said, I don’t think that I am undocumented everyday. So I feel, like I said before, like I’m an American--just as my roommates that were born here in the US. But every once in a while, for example when considering a job, I have to think, “Well, I only have permission to work for X amount of time because of Obama’s deferred action. Once that runs out, what am I going to do? It is a scary feeling when I have to think about things like that. Or even just having a steady life here. I have been very afraid that I would have to go back to Mexico and exercise my degree there. That is probably what I think about the most. Defining myself as an undocumented person in America is scary because there’s a lot of uncertainty about my future, and not knowing necessarily what will happen and what I will be able to do.
(PAUSE). BEGIN FOLLOW-UP INTERVIEW.
KS: Alright, this is Kayla Schliewe doing a follow-up interview with Alma Islas on Monday, March 30th at 4:34 p.m in the Undergraduate Library in the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill’s campus. I’m just going to get started. Did you parents need any skills trainings or higher education to get the supervisor positions that they had in Mexico City?
AI: In Mexico City, no they did not. My mother finished high school and she was a secretary for where she worked, in the bus company. My father just finished middle school, so yes, no they did not receive any. Maybe they did need some sort of formal training, but none that they have told me about. There’s none that they’ve told me about, any educational…
KS: Wow. Middle School, that’s impressive. (Laughter). So in Mexico, if you don’t have educational background, for upward mobility, how do you get a better standard of living in Mexico? If you don’t need education, what do you do?
AI: Well, this also relates back, for my parents, this relates back to quite a few years back down the road. But now, according to when I talk to my family and my relatives, they tell me that you do have to have education in order to have a decent job. But when going to school is so much more expensive there, it can be very hard to get a decent job. Especially in a city like Mexico City where there’s a lot of people that live there. You’re just competing for about anything you can get.
KS: Wow. I wanted to know, are the qualifications from US and from Mexico, are they different? Is a manager in Mexico different than a manager in the US? Do you know what I mean? Are they equal?
AI: Honestly, I don’t think I can really answer the question super good, just because I was never really raised in Mexico. I don’t exactly know how one views a manager there versus how one views a manager here. Once again, just what I hear from relatives, I know that people with higher authority here in the US are definitely more respected than in Mexico. Because unfortunately, due to corruption and all that, that aspect gets a little swallowed. The people in higher authority don’t always necessarily get the respect they should.
KS: Mhmm. How many years has your dad been in construction here? Did he just start that right when he came?
AI: No, he started working at a nursery when he first got here. He worked there for maybe five or six years. He wasn’t getting paid overtime, and he was being treated not with—fairly. So he quit that and started working in… he had a heating and air conditioning job for a couple of years. Then, he has been working the rest of that time, so seven plus years perhaps, in construction.
KS: Mhmm. Okay. How does he like it so far? Do you think he is going to change jobs again, do you think?
AI: No, I definitely think this is where he will stay. His boss really treats him fairly and they really like my father and his work. My father, he really enjoys doing it, even before he started working construction, he’s always built things for the house and everything. He really enjoys it, so I think that’s where he is going to be at.
KS: Cool. Why do you think that he went to the nursery, and to all these other jobs when he was a supervisor at this bussing company? Why do you think he changed careers so dramatically? Why didn’t he find something in the US that was bus—like, there’s bussing in Raleigh and around the area.
AI: Well, for sure, one thing that I do know is that a degree there or the qualifications in Mexico do not necessarily translate to the same thing in the United States. The primary reason he just went to the nursery job was because when he got here, my mother had a relative. That’s where my dad, he lived with them. They had a job there and they just helped him get a job within that nursery company. However, he didn’t speak the language, so it would have been kind of difficult for him to start at a manager position. Especially because in the United States, they do require an education level; and, he wouldn’t have met that level of requirement.
KS: Okay. Did he—so it was your aunt at the nursery? Or was it a friend at the nursery?
AI: Oh, it was my mother’s cousin.
KS: So did he have the job with her before he even left Mexico City? He came to North Carolina with that job?
AI: He also… When my dad came here he did already have that job lined up for him. My mother’s relatives had already asked around to see if they could have a position for my dad, and they said yes. Then, my dad travelled here, knowing that he would have a job lined up.
KS: How did he travel?
AI: He came here by car.
KS: Just drove through?
AI: Mhmm.
KS: How long was he working with your mom’s family before he brought back for you and your mom and your siblings.
AI: Mhmm. So, his original plan was not to make a livelihood here. He was just supposed to come here and get a little bit of money while things in Mexico City were hopefully going to get better. He realized that getting money here was a bit easier than in Mexico and was a whole lot more—maybe not a whole lot more. Okay, maybe I am speaking too boldly. He figured it was a lot easier to have that lifestyle here, especially because we lived in the country versus the city life. He thought it would be a better place to raise us, so after almost a year, he called my mother and told her: “Hey, I really want you guys to come here and live with me. I think this would be a better change for all of us.”
KS: Does your mom ever talk about that year apart at all? You were only six though. I don’t know. The year that your father was in the US, and you and your mother was back home, do you have any memories about that or stories?
AI: I don’t really remember quite a lot. I only do remember when my dad left. He didn’t say good-bye to me. He just kind of left one day and then the next I was like “Where’s dad?” Then they finally broke it down to me, “he will be back, and he’s just off for a good…” I don’t even remember exactly what they said he was off doing. Yeah, I remember that. He would constantly call us and keep in touch with us. I do remember when he called and they told us that I was going to go see my dad. To me, it didn’t really… I wasn’t even questioning it. I just knew I was going to go back and see my dad, because me and my dad were always close as a child. We still are. I was just super excited to be reunited with my dad again. I didn’t really question the motives or…
KS: What was happening.
AI: Mhmm.
KS: (Laughing). I like that. So, I guess it’s sort of the same thing for your mom. I wanted to ask why she did that change from supervisor position to now she is in the fast food industry. What has her work journey been like here?
AI: Mhmm. My mom just went from being, I wouldn’t say like an ordinary secretary, but she was just a secretary in Mexico to being in the fast food industry in American for the same reasons as my father. She didn’t know the language, and that was just the entry-level job that she could get here. The qualifications that she had in order to be a secretary did not translate here in America. She had to take what available positions were open. That is what was open at the time and she has been working at McDonalds ever since.
KS: Yeah. Does she like it?
AI: I wouldn’t say that she likes it. I think even she would say that she doesn’t like it, but it is what she can work. It is the job availability that she has based on her status. She definitely is qualified to do more than just being a McDonalds employee.
KS: Right.
AI: But, because of her status, she cant go any further. She was also manager at one point, but she had to step down due to her status.
KS: I thought that your parents had status in the US? Both of your parents don’t have…
AI: No, they don’t have anything.
KS: Oh wow, I think I misunderstood that in the last interview. Well, that leads into my next question. Since coming to the US, have your parents received any higher education or skills training? In order for your mom to potentially have a higher paying job or a better job, she could go and possibly try for an associate’s degree or something.
AI: Mhmm.
KS: Have any of those attempts been made?
AI: My dad has received I guess formal training for his job. My mother has receiving training to become a manager at McDonalds, which she was. My dad was a manager at—he was an assistant manager at McDonalds. He also worked at McDonalds for a number of years. They have not made an attempt to pursue higher education just because they haven’t had the time to dedicate to school and work, based on them raising four children.
KS: Right.
AI: They didn’t necessarily, I guess, see that as an opportunity for them. They preferred for them to work as hard as they can for us to have an educational opportunity.
KS: Wow. I like that. So busy with work, and busy with kids, how would you describe your family’s social presence in the community that they live?
AI: Well, I think that both my parents, more so my dad, is more involved in the community. They partake in the community, when I started in the community college I got them a little more involved. They started taking ESL classes. And they go to events at the community college. My dad, he had a soccer team, when I was in High School, for the Hispanic League nearby. Then, he started another soccer team for Elementary School when my little cousins were there. So, he’s been involved in the community on and off, of course. Whenever he feels like he has to take on more hours at work, he lays off of the community involvement. My mother, just because of her personality, is a shy person. She is not as involved as my dad is. But, she does go to every event that my dad goes to for support.
KS: Aw.
AI: She’s just the quiet one, but is very supporting.
KS: Okay. (Laughter). So how is your family life at home? So what is the relationship like and how does the Islas family work?
AI: Mhmm. I would say that my family is just very diverse. Because my mother is the shy one out of the whole family, and my little sister takes on after her. I have always been a little bit outspoken and outgoing, the same for my dad and another one of my sisters. So, we kind of have a little mixture. Then we have my brother that’s in between; he doesn’t talk too much but he doesn’t talk too little.
KS: Is he the middle child?
AI: No, he is the oldest child.
KS: Oh! (Laughter).
AI: I wouldn’t definitely say that we have a good dynamic in the Islas household. We all get along great. Of course, like any other family, every now and then we have our dilemmas. I think that we are very supportive of each other, and that’s one of the things that I definitely hold strong for my culture. We are very family-oriented.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: If we ever have an issue, we all get together and try to be there for each other.
KS: That’s good. This is… I’m going to start talking about some stereotypes, or maybe I am going to ask about some. I am trying to think… Has your family ever kind of taught you like gender roles, or has that been? Because that’s kind of like a stereotype up against a Hispanic culture is that men do one thing and women do another. Have you seen that in your family?
AI: Not very much. Because my parents were raised in a city, they were a bit more progressive than some of the rest of the Mexicans that were a little more country, I guess you could say. My mother, she has always believed in equality and equality of both sexes. My mom, she just doesn’t let my sisters do the cooking or the dishes. She is always showing my brother how to do things around the house, as well. So, I have never really seen a bias or sexualism. My father, he’s always taught—I know how to fix my car, I know how to do oil changes, because my father has always believed in that, too. You know, women and men should have equal rights.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: So I definitely don’t think I have seen sexist roles being instilled in my family. Like I said, I think that goes back because my parents were raised in the city and had a little bit more progressive ideas, I would say.
KS: Mhmm. And what, to you, because I don’t know the answer, but what is the difference between Hispanic and Latino?
KS: You know, that’s a … I don’t really know how to—I don’t know the exact differences. When you say Hispanic, to me, I think of generally just Mexico and Central America. Now, once we start talking about Southern…South America, I probably feel like I would throw in the Latino in there. Because, to me, Hispanic is people that speak Spanish and sometimes Brazilians, you can correct me if I am wrong. You know, I am not an expert.
KS: Sure.
AI: But, I feel like sometimes they get lumped in. And Latinos, just because they have somewhat of a Latin culture, but some of them don’t speak Spanish. To me, I feel like Hispanics is someone who speaks Spanish and is someone who is more from Central America and North America, being Mexico.
KS: Does that… We were talking about identity last time, and did you identify as a Mexican or American? You feel American, but you are a Mexican, and now you’ve got these words: Hispanic and Latina to throw in there. How does that affect?
AI: Well, it definitely does affect me, because like I said, I don’t even necessarily now the full definition of Hispanic and Latina. I consider myself Hispanic, and I consider myself that just because of my own personal definition of what Hispanic means. Because I was born in Mexico and both parents were born there.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: Am I answering your question?
KS: No, yeah! It’s a very confusing question, and that’s what I think I am getting at. What do you call yourself, when you have all these words thrown at you all the time?
AI: That is true.
KS: Are you Hispanic, and Latina, and Mexican, but you can feel American?
AI: I usually, just when I introduce myself, I say that I was born in Mexico, but raised in North Carolina. I feel like I am definitely a mix of cultures, you know. With Hispanic heritage and American Heritage, because to me, all I really know is America. I love fried chicken just as much as any one else does around here! (Laughter).
KS: Go, Tar Heels! (Laughter). Oh, that’s a good lead to my next question. Do you, and your family, or just you, embrace Hispanic traditions here in North Carolina?
AI: Yes, we definitely do. When we first, from what I can remember, when we first arrived here, we were new to a lot of the holidays and to a lot of the things that Americans did. As we became—as we learned a little bit more, because obviously, I was in school so they taught us a little bit more about the holidays. My parents always wanted to be involved, Such as Martin Luther Kind Jr. Day. My parents were always trying to be involved, like, “Hey, what does this mean? What can we do for this day?” For Fourth of July, we go out and do things. So, we always try to participate in a community event or the holidays, for the American Holidays.
KS: Right. What’s your favorite American Holiday or cultural thing?
AI: My favorite American holiday would definitely be Thanksgiving.
KS: Yes!
AI: (Laughing). It really does touch me every single year. Being thankful, and not just that day to be thankful, but I think coming from a Hispanic background, we are very family-oriented. We like to thank everyday for what we have. You know, for as little as we do have, we thank God for it. So, I think a specific day dedicated to being thankful for what you have, I think it’s great. My family has always participated in that holiday, and I think that’s definitely my favorite.
KS: That’s nice. What about…It seems like you and your family have pretty much adopted the American life, but is there any part of the Hispanic culture you just got to keep?
AI: Oh, absolutely! That’s one of the things I do like about my family, and that’s why I say that I feel like I am American--Mexican-American. We also, at home, just about every—all Hispanic holidays--Mexican holidays, we try to celebrate. My parents always try to teach us about it. Like Cinco de Mayo, I was, at first, confused and thinking, “Hey, I know that’s not our independence day, but why do people call it that?”
Ks: Mhmm.
AI: So, my parents take every opportunity they can to teach us and to tell us, “You now what, that’s not what it is.” Or just any random holiday that’s celebrated in Mexico, but not here, they’ll say, ”Hey, you know today’s X Day and this is how it’s celebrated and this is what you should know about it.” My parents always try to keep our roots—bring us back to our roots and tell us that it is always important to remember our culture.
KS: Mhmm. Well, because you speak Spanish at home, correct?
AI: Mhmm.
KS: Do you embrace like the food and the culture and the music?
AI: Yes.
KS: Yeah, all of it?
AI: Absolutely.
KS: What’s your favorite part about that?
AI: Well, absolutely, the food! (Laughing). The food is my favorite. We always, like I said, we do go to outings; we do go to celebrations like quinceñeras, and celebrations like that. We always dance, and my dad’s always been a really outgoing guy and he teaches us how to dance salsa and merengue. So, I know a little bit about just about every dance because of him. He always tries to embrace out culture, and also, he is really open to the American culture. We go out with our American friends and do a little line dancing, do a little, you know! (Laughing).
KS: Cha-cha slide! (Laughing).
AI: We definitely do. He’s not afraid to soak in a difference in cultures.
KS: I like that, too. (Papers rustling). How have—well Ill go back to the stereotypes. Have you had to personally battle any stereotypes that exist between the two cultures?
AI: Yes. Well… Being of a tanner skin color and I have always randomly… When I used to work at McDonalds or Cookout, or any job that I particularly had, I always, whenever I am serving someone, they typically think that I don’t speak English. Or they think that my English is not very good. It’s been kind of hard to overcome that stereotype. Or it was. I think I finally overcame it. Whenever I get a little stare, and people slow down their words like I don’t understand, it kind of makes me feel a little upset. Because I am like, “Hey, I speak English.”
KS: Right.
AI: I think that’s something that has not just impacted myself, but my whole family, because we get stereotypes like that. Or, people think that I don’t go to a College. I‘ve gotten that, too. People just think, “Oh, you work at Cookout or McDonalds, you’re just--that’s what you do for a living?” No. I am a student.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: So, those types of stereotypes have been a little…they can make you feel bad every now and then.
KS: I’m sure.
AI: But, I think I’ve gotten to a point where I’ve overcame those, whenever I get stereotyped that way. I think I don’t really get bothered anymore. I take it as ignorance on the other person who’s stereotyping me that way.
KS: Sure. But now, you’re working at the Franklin Hotel and you’re also a babysitter, a nanny?
AI: Mhmm.
KS: So when do you find time? So you go to the Franklin Hotel in the morning… What does your day look like? I am amazed you fit so much!
AI: (Laughter). So I guess my daily routines would be every Monday and Wednesday, I go to school and then right after that I go take care of a little girl. Then, I come back to school around 6:00, have dinner and then go home and do some studying and get some sleep because on Tuesdays and Thursdays, I work anywhere from 5:00 to 6:00 in the morning. Then, I get off work at 10:45 or 10:30, and then head straight to class from 11:00 to 4:45. I use my free time, as I so like to call it…. (Laughter). …to study or catch up on homework or do whatever it is that I need to do at that time.
KS: Right.
AI: On Thursdays, that’s my longer days, because right as soon as I get out of class, I am involved with SUIE (Students United for Immigrant Equality). I attend their weekly meetings. Yeah. On Fridays I do the similar: work in the morning again, and then I go to school, and then go babysit. My weekend is working again and just catching up with schoolwork.
KS: You have a really good work ethic, I think. Because it gets hard when you have papers and classes and you just keep working. I think you have a really strong sense of work ethic. (Laughter). Are there…. The service industry, okay, so that gets generalized as a Hispanic job, so I just want to know, In the Franklin Hotel, are there other Hispanics that you work with? Or is there a great variety? What does that work dynamic look like?
AI: Honestly, it’s mostly Hispanics. There’s a few that are not Hispanic.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: But for the most part, its just Mexicans and Guatemalans, I think that’s all we have in the Franklin Hotel. I have worked a lot in the service industry, and you see basically the majority Hispanics, especially in the kitchens. For example, when I worked at the Governor’s Club--that’s a different story actually. That’s a different story. You did have a good dynamic there, just because you did have to have professional chefs. And not to say that Hispanics don’t take the time to do so, but sometimes a lot of the Hispanics that do come here as immigrants, a good chunk of them are undocumented, so it’s a little harder to get these certificates and get the schooling behind. Whenever you have a job such as the Governor’s Club that requires these certificates and what not, you don’t see a lot of Hispanics in this particular field. It’s just because there’s more requirements to there.
KS: Who works in those jobs?
AI: Typically for the certification jobs, you get a good variety. Mostly Americans are working in those positions where you have to have some sorts of certificates or degrees to work in.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: And that is what I have seen, but however in the service industry jobs like Cookout and McDonalds that I have worked at, you see the majority, I would say at least about 95% …
KS: Wow.
AI: … of the people are Hispanics working in the kitchens. In the front of the house, you typically get the Americans that are there. I also think too, it’s because of the language. Just people feel more comfortable. Although they can speak English, they feel a little bit more comfortable not being at the front of the house.
KS: Right.
AI: Also, it’s like everyone in the back with you it’s like a community, a family.
AI: That’s true.
KS: You can have like a work family. So when you have work, and you have new jobs, is status something that is talked about? Or is that something that is not talked about? Like if you got a new job, and you see the kitchen is full of people form Mexico or people from Guatemala, do you just say, “Hey, I’m from Mexico too. Are you a citizen?” How does that go?
AI: Uh huh. Typically, Hispanics are definitely more open. Not that you assume that you’re undocumented just because yore another Hispanic…
KS: Sure.
AI: …but, you feel more comfortable. You have a sense of I’m not going to be judged, or I can be free and tell you if I am undocumented, if I choose to.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: However, because I’ve worked both. I’ve worked in the kitchen and in the front of the house, and registers and drive-thru. I don’t feel as comfortable telling an American that I am, just because I am afraid of getting stereotyped or any negative repercussions that may come behind me saying that. However, if I am working in the kitchen, I feel much more comfortable telling you, “Yes, I am undocumented. How about you?” But, It’s not something that we all talk about as soon as we meet.
KS: Sure. (Laughter).
AI: You automatically feel like family.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: You feel really liberated, you feel like no judgment. That’s how you feel whenever you work with someone else that’s Hispanic.
KS: Mhmm. It’s because you’re family oriented. It’s in your blood! I love it. Last couple questions. How have your dreams evolved, as you’ve gotten older?
AI: I would say, when I was younger, I sued to think that the step to get to was being a high school graduate. I thought that was going to be where I needed to be. You know, when I was anywhere from middle school and less, I thought that high school was it. My dad didn’t make it to high school graduation and my mom did, but that’s all that she did. I thought that’s where I needed to be. But as I became, started to go into high school and finishing middle school, I realized that there’s more than just high school. There’s college. I wanted that that just as much s anybody else. So I think yes, my goals definitely changed from being a high school graduate to now, obtaining a Masters degree.
KS: That’s your end target? The Masters?
AI: Oh, actually, my end target is a Doctorate, but with what I want to do, not that I don’t need a Doctorate, but I think that I will be well equipped with a Masters. Just because of my status and how much it takes to afford school, I don’t think that a Doctorate will be very feasible, just in the money sense.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: But of course, you know, if I do get another wonderful scholarship like the one I have, I definitely would love to go for it.
KS: Yeah. How have your self-perceptions changed over time?
AI: Can you explain that question a little more?
KS: Sure. A self-perception is like how do you think about yourself. So, when you were young, you probably had this idea, and so how has that grown or changed?
AI: Okay. Whenever I was younger, I do remember thinking I could be anything that I wanted to be.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: And then, right when I was graduating high school, I said, “No, I cant, because I am undocumented.” At some point in my childhood years, I wanted to be in the Medical field.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: Right when I was getting ready to finish high school, I realized that to get into nursing programs or anything allied-health related, you had to have social security. So, automatically, I started realizing that I’m actually limited. Although, I want to be anything that—my mindset said that I can be anything that I wanted to be. On the contrary, I am limited because of the status that I do have. I could be the smartest in whatever specific field I wanted to be, but because of my status, I am limited. That doesn’t mean that it is impossible, but I am limited. SO I think that my self-perception changed a little. I more so oriented myself to what I can do, and excel from that. I think that’s how my self-perception has changed. Doing what I can do, based on my limitations.
KS: Mhmm. Is high school the first time you started noticing those limitations?
AI: Yes.
KS: That’s when it all started.
AI: It really started whenever… Drivers Ed.
KS: Oh right. Right.
AI: Driver’s Ed is whenever I realized, “Oh, I am different.” (Laughter).
KS: I wanted to know, how did you find out about your undocumented status?
AI: I’ve always known that I was undocumented.
KS: Oh, okay.
AI: But it’s not something that I kept being reminded of every day, much like I do now. You know, K-12, because of that Supreme Court Case ruling…
KS: Mhmm.
AI: …anyone can be in anything from K-12. The whole entire time, up to middle school, I would say that I felt like I had equal opportunities. But once I started getting to fourteen and a half, fifteen, having to take Drivers Ed, that’s the first time where,” You’re undocumented? Sorry, hold on.” You can’t do everything as you think you can.
KS: Right.
AI: That was the moment that, slowly but surely, it started building up. It was particularly after 9/11 whenever new laws started, Homeland Security.
KS: Right.
AI: Started chiming in and crating new laws that prevented me from being a regular, normal person.
KS: A regular, normal person? So you felt like you were less of a person?
AI: I definitely…in a sense, Yes.
KS: Yeah.
AI: Because I don’t consider myself a criminal. Unfortunately, under the law, some people see me as a criminal. So I think whenever you put a fifteen or fourteen year old child and say, “You can’t get a Driver’s License,” because under the scope, you are considered as somewhat of a criminal,” that does some things to a person. It kind of makes you feel lesser of a person. I felt like, you know, I was equal, but whenever little things like that occur, it does…it can hurt a little bit.
KS: Mhmm. Wow. Well… Do you ever look back, because now yore older, you’re wise, you’re in school, you’ve been with the system that has kind of pushed you down a little bit—or maybe a lot, do you ever look at your past and ever look at things differently because of your experiences?
AI: Yes, always. Always. Every time I look back, I couldn’t have a license then, but now I have a license.
Ks: Mhmm.
AI: little things like that, I like to look and see where I am. I don’t like to look backwards a lot, just because it can bring back sad feelings or emotional feelings that can just cloud up my judgment moving forward. But I do like to look at what obstacles I have overcome. For example, I thought that I wasn’t going to come here to UNC, just because I didn’t have the money. But, I was fortunate enough to receive a scholarship that is going to put me through my last two years here. So I look at what I have overcame, and not dig in too deep to at the time why I couldn’t do it.
KS: Right.
AI: I just see it as it is possible. So while I do have limitations, I still can do a lot with those limitations that I have.
KS: You’re just always so positive and I think that you’re kind of like a really big inspiration to others. I really appreciate that you’re letting me have your story, and that I can share it to other people because hopefully you can reach others. Maybe with your work with public policy or with SUIE, you can reach others and inspire them, too.
AI: Thank you!
KS: I am out of questions, so again, thank you for your time.
AI: Thank you, I appreciate it!
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Estudiantes
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Alma Islas habla de su experiencia viniendo a Carolina del Norte de la Ciudad de México a los seis años. Ella habla sobre el trabajo de su familia en México y los motivos detrás de la migración a los Estados Unidos. Ella habla sobre la lucha de identidad que se ha sentido desde que llegó y sus conflictos sobre ser mexicana en papel, pero sentirse más americana en práctica. Ella habla de sus metas a largo plazo, y luego sobre los objetivos de su padre y tres hermanos. Ella trabaja dos empleos a tiempo parcial para ayudar a financiar su educación, y también trabaja con SUIE (Students United for Immigrant Equality) una organización en el campus. Alma destaca la importancia que la educación ha tenido en su vida. Ella describe el sistema de educación privado en México y menciona que el idioma fue frecuentemente una barrera durante su crecimiento. Ella discute DACA y cómo la ha afectado tanto en un sentido legal como emocional. Ella habla de su vida como una estudiante indocumentada y habla de las pocas opciones que ella tiene hacia la declaración de la ciudadanía.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Alma Islas por Kayla Schliewe, 18 Marzo 2015, R-0811, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Educación superior; Identidad; Ciudadanía e inmigración; Lenguaje y comunicación; Movimiento de jóvenes 'Soñadores' y Acción Diferida
Es: Transcripción
Kayla Schliewe: Ok this is Kayla Schliewe interviewing Alma Islas on Wednesday March 18th at 9:07am. We are conducting the interview in the Undergraduate Library on the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill campus.
Alma could you begin by telling me a little bit about yourself, such as where you’re from and how you got to Chapel Hill?
Alma Islas: Well, like you said, my name is Alma Islas and I am from Mexico City. I arrived to North Carolina when I was six years old, and I lived in Pineville North Carolina ever since. I went to Wayne Community College shortly after graduating High School. After receiving my Associates degree, I was accepted to the University of North Carolina. However, I had to take a year off due to the constraints of not having enough aid...financial aid. And then here I am, a year later, after taking a year off. I am a junior here, a Public Policy Major and Entrepreneurship Minor.
KS: What made your family come here when you were age six?
AI: When I was age six, my family actually had, they had a very steady job. Both my parents worked for a bus company in Mexico City. It was a thriving company and then unfortunately, due to corruption in Mexico, the president, like the government, found out how good the company was doing and decided to take over. Then a lot of corruption and things started happening. My father was a supervisor in the company, and he noticed a lot of things were not legal and corrupt. He basically started ri—not riots, but strikes with more of his colleges and decided to stand up to the government. That of course went wrong, and my dad ended up without having a job. So he decided to come to America for a year to just get some money, and then bring it back home and still live in Mexico. But after being here for a year, he realized that getting money was a whole lot easier here than in Mexico
KS: Mhmm
AI: So he decided to send for us and bring us over to North Carolina.
KS: Do you remember anything from living in Mexico City?
AI: I remember very little. Unfortunately, I have very little memories
KS: Yeah
AI: But I do have a lot with my family, more than anything.
KS: Mhmm. We were just talking about this earlier, but how do you identify yourself. Like, on paper? Yeah.
AI: You know, on paper I always tend to say I am Mexican. Although I do have a deep appreciation for my culture, I honestly don’t feel like a Mexican. I feel like I am just as American as anyone else who was born and raised here. Although I wasn’t born here, six years, that are my first few 6 years of my life, I was not engaged at all in the American way. I feel like I have been…. I have been doing, practicing, the American things. I definitely feel American.
KS: Right. Have your Mexican roots provided any barriers or obstacles so far?
AI: I would say so. Like the first obstacles that I had to encounter were when I started 1st grade as a six year old. I did go to a…I went to private school in Mexico, so I did know a little bit of English. But just to give you a quick example of the way they taught us there: “January,” that’s how you say it correct? In Mexico, they would teach us “January”. (han-war-ee). I was already kind of a little disadvantaged because of the teachers. They did know English, but it wasn’t as fluently as you would use it here in America. So one of my first obstacles was the language. Then, all growing up I was always seen as the minority. I was always seen as somewhat of an outsider, but that’s not how I felt. That was kind of… still is a little bit of a--I wouldn’t call it per say a struggle, it’s just kind of been a little bit of a maybe… Yes, like a small obstacle. Obstacles and struggles are the same thing. I am feeling like I am an outsider, or people make me feel like I am an outsider, but me not feeling that way. That’s been the hardest thing.
KS: Mhmm. So its like how you perceive yourself versus how like society perceives you.
AI: That’s correct.
KS: So what are you long-term goals, like dreams and ambitions? That could be career, family, anything.
AI: Well, my long-term goals are to work in education, particularly policy making. I, being a first generation student and an immigrant, have developed a very strong passion for seeking higher education. Unfortunately I wasn’t, I didn’t have anyone to look up to help me, you know. “What do you do to go to college?” “What’s the next step?” “How do you do this?” “How do you do that and the other?” I realized that there’s a strong demand in helping other first generation students like myself-or not even that. Maybe could be also having really good income, but your parents just aren’t there for you. Just helping anyone in general to seek a higher education is where my true passion lies.
KS: Mhmm. Are these different dreams or goals than your parents, did they have any interest in education,
AI: Absolutely. That’s actually one of the primary reasons why my dad sent over for us. He wanted us to have like a steady life and have a really good education. Which is why in Mexico, we went to a private school. He has always valued education. He unfortunately, his dad died when he was ten years old. He had…he really…his dream was to become a doctor. But having seven other siblings, he just ended up not going to school and going to job field. That’s why my dad really values education. He always harped on us how to do well in school, and supported us all the way through.
KS: What would you… or how would you define “the American Dream?”
We hear all the time, you know. Throw it around, but what does it actually mean to you?
AI: That--I’ve been asked that question quite a few times and it’s always a difficult answer. Because in my eyes, the American dream is an opportunity for you to be better--a better life. So basic—it depends… I feel like it varies from person to person. But in my particular experience, the American Dream, to me, is to be able to come from a country where there is corruption to be able to have a future. Whatever it is that I want to do. For me, the future is education and hopefully to be a role model for someone.
KS: This is going to be easy! How has education played a role in your attempts to obtaining your degree?
AI: I think education is not just a matter of getting education in school. I think you can be educated from the workforce or anything that you allow yourself to learn from. I would say that education has played an enormous part in me getting my degree because it has allowed me to learn a diversified number of things. From teachers, from other students, and just basically soaking up as much information and as many things as I can to be successful. And learn from others mistakes, as well as my own.
KS: What else besides taking courses here at the University do you get involved in?
AI: I’m involved in SUIE (Students United for Immigrant Equality). I have two other part time jobs, so that’s where most of my time goes. Between SUIE and my two other jobs. As of now, that’s the only thing I would say I am a part of.
KS: And what do you do with SUIE, and if you would like to say, what are your part-time jobs? Are they related?
AI: SUIE, we do a lot. We have been working on events. Currently, we are working on Immigration Awareness Week. We have also gone out to a moral march. Those are the kinds of events that SUIE has been involved with, and I try to participate in as many things as SUIE has going on. My part time jobs: the first one is working at the Franklin Hotel. I am a server in the restaurant for the breakfast service, and my second part time job is being a babysitter for a little girl around here in Chapel Hill.
KS: Mhmm. Switching topics a little bit. I’m interested in finding out more about how the DREAM act or Obama’s deferred actions can play affect on helping people obtain their dreams or goals. So have either of these helped you out? Or are they unrelated?
AI: Personally, I am an undocumented student. Having undocumented status has been heavy on me receiving my education. As soon as I graduated High School, I panicked a little and thought that I was not going to be able to go to school because at the time the laws were a little vague. They weren’t sure whether to allow undocumented students into the university system, or even in the community college system. Fortunately, I was able to enroll in community college. But let’s say that I wasn’t able to, due to my status. I would say that it would’ve been very hard for me. Devastating. Because it means I would have had to enter the work force and suppressed an opportunity for me to excel in life. I think for Obama to, or for the next president, to have a reform. If a DREAM act came true, would mean a lot, and would actually put a lot of kids into a better education. Which can lead to better work life and more money for the economy
KS: Mhmm. Is that why you work two jobs? Is there financial stress…
AI: Yes
KS: …for you to come to the university?
AI: One of the things about the American Dream that I mentioned before: Yes, a lot of people have conceptions, like myself, that you can come here and be who you want to be. But unfortunately, in America, the way of life is if you don’t have money, or you unfortunately don’t have documented status, you are very limited to what you can do. The American Dream per say, gets crutched a lot, or comes with many obstacles for you to obtain when you a documented status.
KS: Do your parents have undocumented status as well
AI: No
KS: Oh okay, I was going to see if that has…or actually.. Has even their identity provided any obstacles for them as well? Even though they have documentation-has just their identity played a part?
AI: Can you explain that question a little? I don’t think I am understanding it.
KS: Sure! That’s fine. I wanted, because obviously, or it’s more obvious, that sometimes without documentation there are limitations: such as sources for funding. But is just having a Hispanic or Mexican Identity, has that held your parents back at all? Or do you think that America has kind of come past that a little bit?
AI: I think maybe, in some ways, it has been somewhat of a setback for them just because their English. They do speak English, but they have a thick accent. However, sometimes people just look at it, “oh you don’t speak English,” and they kind of look at them a little different or with a less regard. I think both of them show that they are, you know, adequate people for the job or for whatever they’re setting themselves up for. I would say yes, that them being Mexican and having a thick accent has set them back a little. I would definitely say that America has not surpassed the fact that someone is a different color, then they can do just the same thing as anyone else, just because of that.
KS: The language barrier?
AI: Mhmm.
KS: And what do your parents do here? Your dad was the supervisor back in Mexico City. So does…
AI: He works in construction and my mother works at a McDonalds restaurant.
KS: Mhmm ok. Does…do you have any siblings or others that go to school as well/ Do they have the same dreams and goals as you?
AI: I have three other siblings. I have one, the youngest one she was born here. She hopes to be a teacher. She is only a freshman, so perhaps that will change. She is still young. If not, then good for her. That’s awesome. My other sister, she wants to be a nurse. She is also undocumented like myself, and then my older brother he wants to be a nutritionist
KS: Wow.
AI: He is going to school right now at Wayne Community College
KS: Awesome! So does he have plans to come to the University?
AI: Yes, he is actually planning on transferring to ECU in the fall.
KS: Mhmm, that’s nice. What would make the transition into academia easier for undocumented? What would be the—if we could just fix one problem, what would it be?
AI: Quite frankly, it would be great for us to just be granted document status. But I do see, because of the political arena right now, it’s probably not a possibility. If we could just fix a lesser thing than that, I would just say for there to be an executive order or just a law that would allow undocumented student to receive their education and be able to rehearse that education by receiving a job afterwards.
KS: If you were still in Mexico City, how do you think your life would be?
AI: I really think its kind of hard for me to imagine life in Mexico because I know very little about it. I don’t… the only things I do know is from what I hear from my relatives back home. I like to make the best of every situation in any setting I am in. I think I would probably still be in school, but I think it would definitely be a whole lot harder for me to have put myself through school just because in Mexico, it’s a whole lot more expensive to be in school. It’s not kind of an equal opportunity as much as it is here in America in order for you to receive that. And I say equal opportunity, but then at the same time its not really equal, because a lot of undocumented students aren’t getting that equality here.
KS: Do you ever plan to go back maybe and visit your family? Or you maintain communication with them?
AI: Oh, we maintain very good communication. However, I do. I hope to be able to. It all just depends if I get permission from immigration, and all that good stuff. If I would get permission, I would definitely hop on a plane and go as soon as possible.
KS: And what’s the process of getting permission? What does that entail?
AI: Well currently, because I fall under DACA (Deferred action for Childhood Arrivals), I can file for advanced parole, which would give me permission to go to Mexico. But it has to…its only for a few number of reasons. One of them would be if a relative back home is sick and has an illness. Then, they could probably give me permission to do that. Another way that I can think of going to Mexico from advanced parole is if I have a job and they send me over there, or if I do a study abroad experience in Mexico.
KS: The DACA, that if I understand this, that’s not citizen. So, is there a pathway for citizenship coming for you along the way, do you think?
AI: I don’t necessarily see one. I know I probably have to do more research. I have done a fair amount of research and there’s nothing out there for me particularly, unless I marry an American citizen. But of course, I won’t force myself to fall in love with a citizen. But if that does happen, that’s great because I could get my citizenship and legal status that way. But as the way the law stands right now, there’s just no path for me.
KS: So what is that like? It’s something I don’t understand or experience, but what does that feel like to be an undocumented and knowing that you might be that way for a couple years?
AI: The most fearful thing is that I could remain this status for the rest of my life, which is kind of scary. Being undocumented, like I said, I don’t think that I am undocumented everyday. So I feel, like I said before, like I’m an American--just as my roommates that were born here in the US. But every once in a while, for example when considering a job, I have to think, “Well, I only have permission to work for X amount of time because of Obama’s deferred action. Once that runs out, what am I going to do? It is a scary feeling when I have to think about things like that. Or even just having a steady life here. I have been very afraid that I would have to go back to Mexico and exercise my degree there. That is probably what I think about the most. Defining myself as an undocumented person in America is scary because there’s a lot of uncertainty about my future, and not knowing necessarily what will happen and what I will be able to do.
(PAUSE). BEGIN FOLLOW-UP INTERVIEW.
KS: Alright, this is Kayla Schliewe doing a follow-up interview with Alma Islas on Monday, March 30th at 4:34 p.m in the Undergraduate Library in the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill’s campus. I’m just going to get started. Did you parents need any skills trainings or higher education to get the supervisor positions that they had in Mexico City?
AI: In Mexico City, no they did not. My mother finished high school and she was a secretary for where she worked, in the bus company. My father just finished middle school, so yes, no they did not receive any. Maybe they did need some sort of formal training, but none that they have told me about. There’s none that they’ve told me about, any educational…
KS: Wow. Middle School, that’s impressive. (Laughter). So in Mexico, if you don’t have educational background, for upward mobility, how do you get a better standard of living in Mexico? If you don’t need education, what do you do?
AI: Well, this also relates back, for my parents, this relates back to quite a few years back down the road. But now, according to when I talk to my family and my relatives, they tell me that you do have to have education in order to have a decent job. But when going to school is so much more expensive there, it can be very hard to get a decent job. Especially in a city like Mexico City where there’s a lot of people that live there. You’re just competing for about anything you can get.
KS: Wow. I wanted to know, are the qualifications from US and from Mexico, are they different? Is a manager in Mexico different than a manager in the US? Do you know what I mean? Are they equal?
AI: Honestly, I don’t think I can really answer the question super good, just because I was never really raised in Mexico. I don’t exactly know how one views a manager there versus how one views a manager here. Once again, just what I hear from relatives, I know that people with higher authority here in the US are definitely more respected than in Mexico. Because unfortunately, due to corruption and all that, that aspect gets a little swallowed. The people in higher authority don’t always necessarily get the respect they should.
KS: Mhmm. How many years has your dad been in construction here? Did he just start that right when he came?
AI: No, he started working at a nursery when he first got here. He worked there for maybe five or six years. He wasn’t getting paid overtime, and he was being treated not with—fairly. So he quit that and started working in… he had a heating and air conditioning job for a couple of years. Then, he has been working the rest of that time, so seven plus years perhaps, in construction.
KS: Mhmm. Okay. How does he like it so far? Do you think he is going to change jobs again, do you think?
AI: No, I definitely think this is where he will stay. His boss really treats him fairly and they really like my father and his work. My father, he really enjoys doing it, even before he started working construction, he’s always built things for the house and everything. He really enjoys it, so I think that’s where he is going to be at.
KS: Cool. Why do you think that he went to the nursery, and to all these other jobs when he was a supervisor at this bussing company? Why do you think he changed careers so dramatically? Why didn’t he find something in the US that was bus—like, there’s bussing in Raleigh and around the area.
AI: Well, for sure, one thing that I do know is that a degree there or the qualifications in Mexico do not necessarily translate to the same thing in the United States. The primary reason he just went to the nursery job was because when he got here, my mother had a relative. That’s where my dad, he lived with them. They had a job there and they just helped him get a job within that nursery company. However, he didn’t speak the language, so it would have been kind of difficult for him to start at a manager position. Especially because in the United States, they do require an education level; and, he wouldn’t have met that level of requirement.
KS: Okay. Did he—so it was your aunt at the nursery? Or was it a friend at the nursery?
AI: Oh, it was my mother’s cousin.
KS: So did he have the job with her before he even left Mexico City? He came to North Carolina with that job?
AI: He also… When my dad came here he did already have that job lined up for him. My mother’s relatives had already asked around to see if they could have a position for my dad, and they said yes. Then, my dad travelled here, knowing that he would have a job lined up.
KS: How did he travel?
AI: He came here by car.
KS: Just drove through?
AI: Mhmm.
KS: How long was he working with your mom’s family before he brought back for you and your mom and your siblings.
AI: Mhmm. So, his original plan was not to make a livelihood here. He was just supposed to come here and get a little bit of money while things in Mexico City were hopefully going to get better. He realized that getting money here was a bit easier than in Mexico and was a whole lot more—maybe not a whole lot more. Okay, maybe I am speaking too boldly. He figured it was a lot easier to have that lifestyle here, especially because we lived in the country versus the city life. He thought it would be a better place to raise us, so after almost a year, he called my mother and told her: “Hey, I really want you guys to come here and live with me. I think this would be a better change for all of us.”
KS: Does your mom ever talk about that year apart at all? You were only six though. I don’t know. The year that your father was in the US, and you and your mother was back home, do you have any memories about that or stories?
AI: I don’t really remember quite a lot. I only do remember when my dad left. He didn’t say good-bye to me. He just kind of left one day and then the next I was like “Where’s dad?” Then they finally broke it down to me, “he will be back, and he’s just off for a good…” I don’t even remember exactly what they said he was off doing. Yeah, I remember that. He would constantly call us and keep in touch with us. I do remember when he called and they told us that I was going to go see my dad. To me, it didn’t really… I wasn’t even questioning it. I just knew I was going to go back and see my dad, because me and my dad were always close as a child. We still are. I was just super excited to be reunited with my dad again. I didn’t really question the motives or…
KS: What was happening.
AI: Mhmm.
KS: (Laughing). I like that. So, I guess it’s sort of the same thing for your mom. I wanted to ask why she did that change from supervisor position to now she is in the fast food industry. What has her work journey been like here?
AI: Mhmm. My mom just went from being, I wouldn’t say like an ordinary secretary, but she was just a secretary in Mexico to being in the fast food industry in American for the same reasons as my father. She didn’t know the language, and that was just the entry-level job that she could get here. The qualifications that she had in order to be a secretary did not translate here in America. She had to take what available positions were open. That is what was open at the time and she has been working at McDonalds ever since.
KS: Yeah. Does she like it?
AI: I wouldn’t say that she likes it. I think even she would say that she doesn’t like it, but it is what she can work. It is the job availability that she has based on her status. She definitely is qualified to do more than just being a McDonalds employee.
KS: Right.
AI: But, because of her status, she cant go any further. She was also manager at one point, but she had to step down due to her status.
KS: I thought that your parents had status in the US? Both of your parents don’t have…
AI: No, they don’t have anything.
KS: Oh wow, I think I misunderstood that in the last interview. Well, that leads into my next question. Since coming to the US, have your parents received any higher education or skills training? In order for your mom to potentially have a higher paying job or a better job, she could go and possibly try for an associate’s degree or something.
AI: Mhmm.
KS: Have any of those attempts been made?
AI: My dad has received I guess formal training for his job. My mother has receiving training to become a manager at McDonalds, which she was. My dad was a manager at—he was an assistant manager at McDonalds. He also worked at McDonalds for a number of years. They have not made an attempt to pursue higher education just because they haven’t had the time to dedicate to school and work, based on them raising four children.
KS: Right.
AI: They didn’t necessarily, I guess, see that as an opportunity for them. They preferred for them to work as hard as they can for us to have an educational opportunity.
KS: Wow. I like that. So busy with work, and busy with kids, how would you describe your family’s social presence in the community that they live?
AI: Well, I think that both my parents, more so my dad, is more involved in the community. They partake in the community, when I started in the community college I got them a little more involved. They started taking ESL classes. And they go to events at the community college. My dad, he had a soccer team, when I was in High School, for the Hispanic League nearby. Then, he started another soccer team for Elementary School when my little cousins were there. So, he’s been involved in the community on and off, of course. Whenever he feels like he has to take on more hours at work, he lays off of the community involvement. My mother, just because of her personality, is a shy person. She is not as involved as my dad is. But, she does go to every event that my dad goes to for support.
KS: Aw.
AI: She’s just the quiet one, but is very supporting.
KS: Okay. (Laughter). So how is your family life at home? So what is the relationship like and how does the Islas family work?
AI: Mhmm. I would say that my family is just very diverse. Because my mother is the shy one out of the whole family, and my little sister takes on after her. I have always been a little bit outspoken and outgoing, the same for my dad and another one of my sisters. So, we kind of have a little mixture. Then we have my brother that’s in between; he doesn’t talk too much but he doesn’t talk too little.
KS: Is he the middle child?
AI: No, he is the oldest child.
KS: Oh! (Laughter).
AI: I wouldn’t definitely say that we have a good dynamic in the Islas household. We all get along great. Of course, like any other family, every now and then we have our dilemmas. I think that we are very supportive of each other, and that’s one of the things that I definitely hold strong for my culture. We are very family-oriented.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: If we ever have an issue, we all get together and try to be there for each other.
KS: That’s good. This is… I’m going to start talking about some stereotypes, or maybe I am going to ask about some. I am trying to think… Has your family ever kind of taught you like gender roles, or has that been? Because that’s kind of like a stereotype up against a Hispanic culture is that men do one thing and women do another. Have you seen that in your family?
AI: Not very much. Because my parents were raised in a city, they were a bit more progressive than some of the rest of the Mexicans that were a little more country, I guess you could say. My mother, she has always believed in equality and equality of both sexes. My mom, she just doesn’t let my sisters do the cooking or the dishes. She is always showing my brother how to do things around the house, as well. So, I have never really seen a bias or sexualism. My father, he’s always taught—I know how to fix my car, I know how to do oil changes, because my father has always believed in that, too. You know, women and men should have equal rights.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: So I definitely don’t think I have seen sexist roles being instilled in my family. Like I said, I think that goes back because my parents were raised in the city and had a little bit more progressive ideas, I would say.
KS: Mhmm. And what, to you, because I don’t know the answer, but what is the difference between Hispanic and Latino?
KS: You know, that’s a … I don’t really know how to—I don’t know the exact differences. When you say Hispanic, to me, I think of generally just Mexico and Central America. Now, once we start talking about Southern…South America, I probably feel like I would throw in the Latino in there. Because, to me, Hispanic is people that speak Spanish and sometimes Brazilians, you can correct me if I am wrong. You know, I am not an expert.
KS: Sure.
AI: But, I feel like sometimes they get lumped in. And Latinos, just because they have somewhat of a Latin culture, but some of them don’t speak Spanish. To me, I feel like Hispanics is someone who speaks Spanish and is someone who is more from Central America and North America, being Mexico.
KS: Does that… We were talking about identity last time, and did you identify as a Mexican or American? You feel American, but you are a Mexican, and now you’ve got these words: Hispanic and Latina to throw in there. How does that affect?
AI: Well, it definitely does affect me, because like I said, I don’t even necessarily now the full definition of Hispanic and Latina. I consider myself Hispanic, and I consider myself that just because of my own personal definition of what Hispanic means. Because I was born in Mexico and both parents were born there.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: Am I answering your question?
KS: No, yeah! It’s a very confusing question, and that’s what I think I am getting at. What do you call yourself, when you have all these words thrown at you all the time?
AI: That is true.
KS: Are you Hispanic, and Latina, and Mexican, but you can feel American?
AI: I usually, just when I introduce myself, I say that I was born in Mexico, but raised in North Carolina. I feel like I am definitely a mix of cultures, you know. With Hispanic heritage and American Heritage, because to me, all I really know is America. I love fried chicken just as much as any one else does around here! (Laughter).
KS: Go, Tar Heels! (Laughter). Oh, that’s a good lead to my next question. Do you, and your family, or just you, embrace Hispanic traditions here in North Carolina?
AI: Yes, we definitely do. When we first, from what I can remember, when we first arrived here, we were new to a lot of the holidays and to a lot of the things that Americans did. As we became—as we learned a little bit more, because obviously, I was in school so they taught us a little bit more about the holidays. My parents always wanted to be involved, Such as Martin Luther Kind Jr. Day. My parents were always trying to be involved, like, “Hey, what does this mean? What can we do for this day?” For Fourth of July, we go out and do things. So, we always try to participate in a community event or the holidays, for the American Holidays.
KS: Right. What’s your favorite American Holiday or cultural thing?
AI: My favorite American holiday would definitely be Thanksgiving.
KS: Yes!
AI: (Laughing). It really does touch me every single year. Being thankful, and not just that day to be thankful, but I think coming from a Hispanic background, we are very family-oriented. We like to thank everyday for what we have. You know, for as little as we do have, we thank God for it. So, I think a specific day dedicated to being thankful for what you have, I think it’s great. My family has always participated in that holiday, and I think that’s definitely my favorite.
KS: That’s nice. What about…It seems like you and your family have pretty much adopted the American life, but is there any part of the Hispanic culture you just got to keep?
AI: Oh, absolutely! That’s one of the things I do like about my family, and that’s why I say that I feel like I am American--Mexican-American. We also, at home, just about every—all Hispanic holidays--Mexican holidays, we try to celebrate. My parents always try to teach us about it. Like Cinco de Mayo, I was, at first, confused and thinking, “Hey, I know that’s not our independence day, but why do people call it that?”
Ks: Mhmm.
AI: So, my parents take every opportunity they can to teach us and to tell us, “You now what, that’s not what it is.” Or just any random holiday that’s celebrated in Mexico, but not here, they’ll say, ”Hey, you know today’s X Day and this is how it’s celebrated and this is what you should know about it.” My parents always try to keep our roots—bring us back to our roots and tell us that it is always important to remember our culture.
KS: Mhmm. Well, because you speak Spanish at home, correct?
AI: Mhmm.
KS: Do you embrace like the food and the culture and the music?
AI: Yes.
KS: Yeah, all of it?
AI: Absolutely.
KS: What’s your favorite part about that?
AI: Well, absolutely, the food! (Laughing). The food is my favorite. We always, like I said, we do go to outings; we do go to celebrations like quinceñeras, and celebrations like that. We always dance, and my dad’s always been a really outgoing guy and he teaches us how to dance salsa and merengue. So, I know a little bit about just about every dance because of him. He always tries to embrace out culture, and also, he is really open to the American culture. We go out with our American friends and do a little line dancing, do a little, you know! (Laughing).
KS: Cha-cha slide! (Laughing).
AI: We definitely do. He’s not afraid to soak in a difference in cultures.
KS: I like that, too. (Papers rustling). How have—well Ill go back to the stereotypes. Have you had to personally battle any stereotypes that exist between the two cultures?
AI: Yes. Well… Being of a tanner skin color and I have always randomly… When I used to work at McDonalds or Cookout, or any job that I particularly had, I always, whenever I am serving someone, they typically think that I don’t speak English. Or they think that my English is not very good. It’s been kind of hard to overcome that stereotype. Or it was. I think I finally overcame it. Whenever I get a little stare, and people slow down their words like I don’t understand, it kind of makes me feel a little upset. Because I am like, “Hey, I speak English.”
KS: Right.
AI: I think that’s something that has not just impacted myself, but my whole family, because we get stereotypes like that. Or, people think that I don’t go to a College. I‘ve gotten that, too. People just think, “Oh, you work at Cookout or McDonalds, you’re just--that’s what you do for a living?” No. I am a student.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: So, those types of stereotypes have been a little…they can make you feel bad every now and then.
KS: I’m sure.
AI: But, I think I’ve gotten to a point where I’ve overcame those, whenever I get stereotyped that way. I think I don’t really get bothered anymore. I take it as ignorance on the other person who’s stereotyping me that way.
KS: Sure. But now, you’re working at the Franklin Hotel and you’re also a babysitter, a nanny?
AI: Mhmm.
KS: So when do you find time? So you go to the Franklin Hotel in the morning… What does your day look like? I am amazed you fit so much!
AI: (Laughter). So I guess my daily routines would be every Monday and Wednesday, I go to school and then right after that I go take care of a little girl. Then, I come back to school around 6:00, have dinner and then go home and do some studying and get some sleep because on Tuesdays and Thursdays, I work anywhere from 5:00 to 6:00 in the morning. Then, I get off work at 10:45 or 10:30, and then head straight to class from 11:00 to 4:45. I use my free time, as I so like to call it…. (Laughter). …to study or catch up on homework or do whatever it is that I need to do at that time.
KS: Right.
AI: On Thursdays, that’s my longer days, because right as soon as I get out of class, I am involved with SUIE (Students United for Immigrant Equality). I attend their weekly meetings. Yeah. On Fridays I do the similar: work in the morning again, and then I go to school, and then go babysit. My weekend is working again and just catching up with schoolwork.
KS: You have a really good work ethic, I think. Because it gets hard when you have papers and classes and you just keep working. I think you have a really strong sense of work ethic. (Laughter). Are there…. The service industry, okay, so that gets generalized as a Hispanic job, so I just want to know, In the Franklin Hotel, are there other Hispanics that you work with? Or is there a great variety? What does that work dynamic look like?
AI: Honestly, it’s mostly Hispanics. There’s a few that are not Hispanic.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: But for the most part, its just Mexicans and Guatemalans, I think that’s all we have in the Franklin Hotel. I have worked a lot in the service industry, and you see basically the majority Hispanics, especially in the kitchens. For example, when I worked at the Governor’s Club--that’s a different story actually. That’s a different story. You did have a good dynamic there, just because you did have to have professional chefs. And not to say that Hispanics don’t take the time to do so, but sometimes a lot of the Hispanics that do come here as immigrants, a good chunk of them are undocumented, so it’s a little harder to get these certificates and get the schooling behind. Whenever you have a job such as the Governor’s Club that requires these certificates and what not, you don’t see a lot of Hispanics in this particular field. It’s just because there’s more requirements to there.
KS: Who works in those jobs?
AI: Typically for the certification jobs, you get a good variety. Mostly Americans are working in those positions where you have to have some sorts of certificates or degrees to work in.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: And that is what I have seen, but however in the service industry jobs like Cookout and McDonalds that I have worked at, you see the majority, I would say at least about 95% …
KS: Wow.
AI: … of the people are Hispanics working in the kitchens. In the front of the house, you typically get the Americans that are there. I also think too, it’s because of the language. Just people feel more comfortable. Although they can speak English, they feel a little bit more comfortable not being at the front of the house.
KS: Right.
AI: Also, it’s like everyone in the back with you it’s like a community, a family.
AI: That’s true.
KS: You can have like a work family. So when you have work, and you have new jobs, is status something that is talked about? Or is that something that is not talked about? Like if you got a new job, and you see the kitchen is full of people form Mexico or people from Guatemala, do you just say, “Hey, I’m from Mexico too. Are you a citizen?” How does that go?
AI: Uh huh. Typically, Hispanics are definitely more open. Not that you assume that you’re undocumented just because yore another Hispanic…
KS: Sure.
AI: …but, you feel more comfortable. You have a sense of I’m not going to be judged, or I can be free and tell you if I am undocumented, if I choose to.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: However, because I’ve worked both. I’ve worked in the kitchen and in the front of the house, and registers and drive-thru. I don’t feel as comfortable telling an American that I am, just because I am afraid of getting stereotyped or any negative repercussions that may come behind me saying that. However, if I am working in the kitchen, I feel much more comfortable telling you, “Yes, I am undocumented. How about you?” But, It’s not something that we all talk about as soon as we meet.
KS: Sure. (Laughter).
AI: You automatically feel like family.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: You feel really liberated, you feel like no judgment. That’s how you feel whenever you work with someone else that’s Hispanic.
KS: Mhmm. It’s because you’re family oriented. It’s in your blood! I love it. Last couple questions. How have your dreams evolved, as you’ve gotten older?
AI: I would say, when I was younger, I sued to think that the step to get to was being a high school graduate. I thought that was going to be where I needed to be. You know, when I was anywhere from middle school and less, I thought that high school was it. My dad didn’t make it to high school graduation and my mom did, but that’s all that she did. I thought that’s where I needed to be. But as I became, started to go into high school and finishing middle school, I realized that there’s more than just high school. There’s college. I wanted that that just as much s anybody else. So I think yes, my goals definitely changed from being a high school graduate to now, obtaining a Masters degree.
KS: That’s your end target? The Masters?
AI: Oh, actually, my end target is a Doctorate, but with what I want to do, not that I don’t need a Doctorate, but I think that I will be well equipped with a Masters. Just because of my status and how much it takes to afford school, I don’t think that a Doctorate will be very feasible, just in the money sense.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: But of course, you know, if I do get another wonderful scholarship like the one I have, I definitely would love to go for it.
KS: Yeah. How have your self-perceptions changed over time?
AI: Can you explain that question a little more?
KS: Sure. A self-perception is like how do you think about yourself. So, when you were young, you probably had this idea, and so how has that grown or changed?
AI: Okay. Whenever I was younger, I do remember thinking I could be anything that I wanted to be.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: And then, right when I was graduating high school, I said, “No, I cant, because I am undocumented.” At some point in my childhood years, I wanted to be in the Medical field.
KS: Mhmm.
AI: Right when I was getting ready to finish high school, I realized that to get into nursing programs or anything allied-health related, you had to have social security. So, automatically, I started realizing that I’m actually limited. Although, I want to be anything that—my mindset said that I can be anything that I wanted to be. On the contrary, I am limited because of the status that I do have. I could be the smartest in whatever specific field I wanted to be, but because of my status, I am limited. That doesn’t mean that it is impossible, but I am limited. SO I think that my self-perception changed a little. I more so oriented myself to what I can do, and excel from that. I think that’s how my self-perception has changed. Doing what I can do, based on my limitations.
KS: Mhmm. Is high school the first time you started noticing those limitations?
AI: Yes.
KS: That’s when it all started.
AI: It really started whenever… Drivers Ed.
KS: Oh right. Right.
AI: Driver’s Ed is whenever I realized, “Oh, I am different.” (Laughter).
KS: I wanted to know, how did you find out about your undocumented status?
AI: I’ve always known that I was undocumented.
KS: Oh, okay.
AI: But it’s not something that I kept being reminded of every day, much like I do now. You know, K-12, because of that Supreme Court Case ruling…
KS: Mhmm.
AI: …anyone can be in anything from K-12. The whole entire time, up to middle school, I would say that I felt like I had equal opportunities. But once I started getting to fourteen and a half, fifteen, having to take Drivers Ed, that’s the first time where,” You’re undocumented? Sorry, hold on.” You can’t do everything as you think you can.
KS: Right.
AI: That was the moment that, slowly but surely, it started building up. It was particularly after 9/11 whenever new laws started, Homeland Security.
KS: Right.
AI: Started chiming in and crating new laws that prevented me from being a regular, normal person.
KS: A regular, normal person? So you felt like you were less of a person?
AI: I definitely…in a sense, Yes.
KS: Yeah.
AI: Because I don’t consider myself a criminal. Unfortunately, under the law, some people see me as a criminal. So I think whenever you put a fifteen or fourteen year old child and say, “You can’t get a Driver’s License,” because under the scope, you are considered as somewhat of a criminal,” that does some things to a person. It kind of makes you feel lesser of a person. I felt like, you know, I was equal, but whenever little things like that occur, it does…it can hurt a little bit.
KS: Mhmm. Wow. Well… Do you ever look back, because now yore older, you’re wise, you’re in school, you’ve been with the system that has kind of pushed you down a little bit—or maybe a lot, do you ever look at your past and ever look at things differently because of your experiences?
AI: Yes, always. Always. Every time I look back, I couldn’t have a license then, but now I have a license.
Ks: Mhmm.
AI: little things like that, I like to look and see where I am. I don’t like to look backwards a lot, just because it can bring back sad feelings or emotional feelings that can just cloud up my judgment moving forward. But I do like to look at what obstacles I have overcome. For example, I thought that I wasn’t going to come here to UNC, just because I didn’t have the money. But, I was fortunate enough to receive a scholarship that is going to put me through my last two years here. So I look at what I have overcame, and not dig in too deep to at the time why I couldn’t do it.
KS: Right.
AI: I just see it as it is possible. So while I do have limitations, I still can do a lot with those limitations that I have.
KS: You’re just always so positive and I think that you’re kind of like a really big inspiration to others. I really appreciate that you’re letting me have your story, and that I can share it to other people because hopefully you can reach others. Maybe with your work with public policy or with SUIE, you can reach others and inspire them, too.
AI: Thank you!
KS: I am out of questions, so again, thank you for your time.
AI: Thank you, I appreciate it!
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-0811 -- Islas, Alma.
Description
An account of the resource
Alma Islas discusses her experience coming to North Carolina from Mexico City at the age of six. She discusses her family’s work in Mexico and the motives behind migrating to the United States. She speaks about the identity struggle she felt since arriving and her conflicts about being Mexican on paper, but feeling more American in practice. She talks about her long-term goals and then the goals of her father and three siblings. She works two part-time jobs to help finance her education, and also works with SUIE (Students United for Immigrant Equality), an on-campus organization. Alma highlights the importance education has had in her life. She discusses the private education system in Mexico and mentioned that language was often a barrier for her growing up. She discusses DACA, and how that affects her both in a legal sense and emotionally. She discusses her life as an undocumented student and talks about the few options she has towards filing for citizenship.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
18 March 2015
Format
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R0811_Audio.mp3
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/26851">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/cec14f517b0e539189666abeb4b42df3.mp3
212ba40529836ed398484abba2103e85
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/cd51cbcdd4d605a32b8fae52dee83dba.pdf
12db156ebe9ee3111cd871e2db93cc52
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0703
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
09 Apr 2014
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Arriaga, Felicia.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Students Activists
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Hendersonville -- North Carolina -- United States
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Durham -- Durham County -- North Carolina
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Smith, Janell.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Janell Smith interviews graduate student Felicia Arriaga in an effort to understand issues of diversity within higher education institutions, specifically as it relates to Latino faculty members. With the hope of becoming a professor, Arriaga is a graduate student in the sociology department at Duke University, where she began her undergraduate career as a student in 2008 and received her bachelor’s degree in sociology and psychology in 2012. She is expected to graduate with her doctorate in 2018. She explains how her minority status has helped and hindered her collegiate career. Arriaga is a resident of Hendersonville, North Carolina, and is also heavily involved in and committed to her community. As the daughter of farmworkers, Arriaga works to better the lives of Latino students and laborers. She works for the Student Action with Farmworkers non-profit organization that seeks fair and just working conditions for farmworkers. Together Ms. Arriaga’s passion for education and her experiences as a Latina student provide a valuable perspective on diversity in higher education, especially as it relates to inclusion of Latinos.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Felicia Arriaga by Janell Smith, 09 April 2014, R-0703, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/20982
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Identity; Citizenship and immigration; Education; Activism; Agricultural workers
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Janell Smith: Okay, this is Janell Smith. I am a sophomore at the University of North Carolina at Chapel here (corrects self) — Hill. I am here with Felicia Arriaga and we are going to conduct an interview tonight. It is about 6:56 p.m. on April 9 of 2014. Today is a Wednesday and we are in the APPLES office located in the Student Union.
So thank you for agreeing to do this Felicia, I know this is last minute but I definitely think you can provide some good insight into some of the research, I guess you could it, that I am doing. I kind of just want to learn more about diversity in higher education as it relates to Latinos being integrated into university departments.
Felicia Arriaga: Great, great. I’m excited.
JS: How about we start with where you are now. You’re a graduate student at Duke, so do you want to talk about how you got to Duke, how you got to graduate school—
FA: Sure.
JS: How you got to your department?
FA: Yeah, I’ll try to give a condensed version, maybe. So… (laughs). I did my undergraduate studies at Duke University and I graduated in May 2012. Now I am a second year Ph.D. student in the sociology department. So, I guess I can talk a lot about the high school preparation that I had, just because that is fresh in my mind and fresh from some of the things that I work on. I think on the side as well about how important college preparation programs are, especially for minority students. I think I can talk a little bit about — I was part of a program called the Next Generation Venture Fund. That program provided, basically, my own guidance counselor that I could interact with and that I could go to if I ever had questions about course selection in high school, later on about SAT prep and then also, whenever I was a junior or senior, about really narrowing down colleges and universities that I would — that I was interested in applying to.
That program was great in general, but I think looking back on it now, too, it was a very specific program that I even had trouble, sort of, explaining to my guidance counselor — my guidance counselor at my local high school — to the point to where I literally was being told how to go about course selection and some of those things I mentioned before by the guidance counselor sort-of-person that was given to me by through the Next Generation Venture Fund.
JS: So this was completely outside of your high school?
FA: Yes. So, it’s completely outside of my high school so there was definitely differences in what my friends were getting as far as college preparation/support went and then definitely another kind of drop off of the people who weren’t even in the honors and AP classes. I can only imagine now what that looked like for them. So that’s also, I think, inspired me to really look at some of the deficiencies there, especially in guidance for high school students, particularly where I’m from in western North Carolina. That’s also allowed me, though, to really think about how can I make to there and make an impact knowing that I’ll be here because I do live in Durham and I do not get to go back that often and I also don’t want to be this shadow and not present there. I’ve toyed with the idea of what that looks like a lot, and so I’ve thought about starting a scholarship for my local high school, particularly geared towards encouraging Latino student college access.
What that means is that I would ideally like for a Latino high school student at my high school to sort of bring together other Latino students and really have a discussion about what are the best ways to get to college, what are some of the options for college, what are some of the challenges we’re going to face, how do we make it so that we have a voice and that whenever we go to certain people they’re not telling us off or maybe giving us all of the information because they might still hold that view that Latinos aren’t graduating, or aren’t going to high school or aren’t going to college and aren’t able to do some of that work, which I think I’ve been surprised by some of those stories that some of the high school students have told me about their interactions, not just with guidance counselors, but also with high school teachers in general and some other community members and very much trying to — we would like to try to combat that and make sure that those students feel that they have some where to go and someone to talk to about it. That’s kind of the work that I do back home is really trying to create…(Minor interruption in recording due to technical issue.)
JS: It’s there.
FA: Okay.
JS: Where students, sorry…
FA: Really trying to create an environment where students feel that they can talk to not just other students about it but also that they can talk to teachers, professors, really kind of creating that community there and that’s a work in progress, but I think that it is moving in the right direction. We have gotten a lot of support from teachers, from guidance counselors, from people who work in the community college system. I think it’s all of those things that need to be talked about all at the same time, and even if it, especially for parents and for people who this is their students are going to be — or their students are going to be the first generation — it can be a lot. But we hope, that in creating that space where you know who you can ask about certain things, that they will be more willing to ask some of these things and so that we can actually change or encourage those students to go to college if they want to.
I think that we always tend to think that education is the great equalizer and I think that in reality you have to think about…(pauses) education might be great for some people, but other people might also have a different idea about what they want to do with their lives, especially at a younger age and especially when they have gone through situations in their own lives where they’ve already had to become adults very early. I think that if they know that they want to go do certain things within the health services and they don’t necessarily need a college education to do that, I think that is something we should be guiding students to do — is how do I make that connection with someone, especially if their current life situation calls for them to maybe provide for a child or something. I think that this is — the college conversation is one that we are having, but we’re also having it with people who might not think that college is right for them and I think that that is also maybe a difficulty, particularly if we are trying to create a program that is a college preparation program. I don’t think that that is necessarily what we’re trying to create there. I think we are trying to create really the space where we can have conversations about college, just about post-high school. I think is what we’re generally interested in looking at and also really tailoring it towards the community because, I think if the community is needing certain things, it’s needing interpreters on one level, especially for communities in the Southeast that are newer Latino communities. They still are very much — they still need basic service interpreters or some of those things that I think that we should all be thinking about that. About how do we really encourage the people that are there to use the skills they to have to benefit the larger community as a whole as well.
JS: You’ve been talking a lot about home. What are the demographics like back…
FA: That’s a good question.
JS: You said somewhere in western Carolina.
FA: So I live — well my family lives in Hendersonville, North Carolina. It’s southeast of Asheville, North Carolina. I actually don’t – I looked this up recently — I don’t know all of the demographics, but we do have an increasing Latino population. Part of that is, or at least, I think most of probably the parents, of my friends and my parents as well, were farmworkers and were migrant workers. It’s also been that those families have stayed there and might have other jobs now, but their children, as I mentioned prior to this, but the people around my age and just a few years older, we kind of are those first people that have gone through the K-12 education system in our area. I think this issue of college access is really important to us because, for us we made it through college. Most of us, or the handful of us that were able to finish high school and went on to college, we’ve finished college at this point and so we’re really — I think — looking back and trying to figure out, well we were kind of those pioneers, I guess to use a cliché term: the people who were definitely the first in our classes and the first Latino students in the AP classes, the honors classes. But now we really want to think about, well it shouldn’t still be the case that there’s only one Latino or one Hispanic. This doesn’t, definitely just doesn’t apply to the Latino population. I think this is something that we should think about in general for all minority students, but particularly that I am interested in kind of, some of the work that I interested in is geared specifically towards Latinos. That’s where I’ve really thought about how to build up that capacity of the Latino college-going community and how that fits into this narrative. I think that being said though, that the demographics — the people I was usually around — actually differed because I went through a boys and girls club program. The demographics there when I was going there was one-thirds black, one-thirds white, and one-thirds Hispanic or Latino.
That was a little bit different in that demographic I was with there was very different than my high school classroom. I think having that experience and having those interactions with people who were very different from me has also made me think about it as that issue of how are minorities fairing in general versus having a different conversation around, “Oh well,” — and this is what we hear all the time, was this like — “Oh, if there’s a Latino student made it then every other student can make it,” or “If there’s an Asian student that made then what are the other minority groups doing wrong?” I think that that’s crucial to think about it in this holistic view of if everyone achieving at the same level. Should they be achieving at the same level, given the circumstances that they’re in and that resources that have been put into their education.
At least that is a little bit of the demographics, but in my high school there was (pauses to think)…In my AP and honors classes, whenever I was in high school, I was probably the only person of color or there was one other Latina who actually when to Chapel Hill or went to Chapel Hill for two years. She ended up transferring into Chapel Hill. Just thinking about those demographics, I now know a handful of people that were in my year and there’s very few of us. I think that the work that I have been able to do in Hendersonville now, and really trying to gather this people-who-have-gone-to-college population, it’s really made me realize, too, that I didn’t know other people in the other high schools in my county, especially who are Latino. I think that is also something that I’ve really thought about, too, is how do we foster not just within the high school that community, but how do we foster it across the whole county. I think that it does happen, but we still see that people don’t know, like people aren’t having — the students might hang out at a family function or somebody’s party or something, but they’re not having this conversation around do you want to go to college. That’s the conversation that I think is crucial to have and I think, too, that it doesn’t necessarily have to be that all of them want to go to UNC or Duke. I think that it’s also good for them to have the conversation of, “Some of us want to go to community college”. Some of it might be that, “I can’t afford to go to UNC or Duke,” or “I want to be close to my family.”
I think that those are conversations that it’s good to have them with people at different levels. That’s definitely something that we’ve been encouraging and we try to, when we’ve done panels for college access nights, that we kind of had that array of people who’ve gone to community college, what they’re doing now; people who have gone to four year colleges, what are they doing now, what were some of the pros and cons to thinking about that; and then we’ve had students who went to community college and are transferring now to a four-year institution. I think having those different levels and also having those different levels for the students to know about, but also for their parents to know about. I think, too, that that’s also key in even having that conversation with parents about the differences because, especially if we’re talking about Latino parents who might speak Spanish, that the names aren’t the same in Spanish as they are in English. Like “colegio” and “la universidad” are very different and, so, whenever we start a presentation there is a very break down of, “This is what a college is,” “This is what a community college is,” “This is what a university is,” and we’re trying to have that conversation, particularly for people who might not know the differences. That’s a common question that we get is, “What are the differences between these different things,” “What can I do with them?” That’s generally what some of the conversations we have around those things are.
JS: In your high school were there any Latino or Latina teachers?
FA: I was thinking about that the other day because I was trying to think about someone else to interview for my project, actually, and I was thinking about that. There was my Spanish teacher, who was from Colombia. She retired, but I think she was the only person of color that was a teacher in my school. In the middle school we did have, maybe two people or two teachers that were of color, but at the high school level I think it was just my Spanish teacher. I’ve thought a lot about that, especially with my project. My project that I am working on for the Global Guanajuato class is looking at exactly that: kind of the representation of Latinos within the K-12 education system, who are they, where are they coming from, how do they get to North Carolina, whether or not they are my age population — so, technically, yes some of my friends could be educators, but they’re not, why is that? In what I’ve found, at least in my stuff, is that the teachers around here, they’ve come here through a teacher exchange program from their country, which is a very different demographic than the people that we think of as immigrants in this state, I think. I’ve definitely been interested in thinking about that. I don’t think we have a teacher of color right now in my high school.
JS: Do you think that influenced your high school career in any way? Maybe you didn’t realize it then, but in retrospect…
FA: Yeah, yeah. I know what you’re asking and I think it did in they way that it — I think two things. One, I guess I didn’t know what teaching really entails and since I didn’t know that there was…(formulating idea). I don’t know I think, I don’t how to explain that. Maybe I’ll just go on to my other point because I don’t know how to explain that. But, I think that it did in the sense that — not saying that a white teacher or a black teacher can’t tell me about Latino culture, I don’t think that that’s what I’m saying, I’m thinking that there was no one there to have that conversation with. Now, I’m looking back on it because I do work a lot with high school students and college students. I think that is really important to have that sense of identity and to really think about how do I fit into this.
I think, too, that it shows that you’re not being taught to think critically in high school because I think if think about it, like what we’re being taught in history classes are some of those things about who won what wars and what actually happened. I think if you were taught to think about it in a critical way, you would have these questions about, “Well, wait a minute, none of these people look like me. How do they fit into this narrative that we’re being taught in schools? How does that fit into why don’t we have a heritage center for Latinos or for all the different groups that have come to this particular location?”
I think, too, that one is that the actual, that that identity and that willingness to actually bring up some of these issues has to start somewhere. I think this is what I was talking about a little bit yesterday in class, too, was this idea of transformative education versus the right to education. I think it goes back to that. Someone is holding — someone has written those texts books and has written them in a way that is going to showcase a certain type of history. One, it can be that we get new textbooks and we write history in a different way —that can either be done by people who are in charge of writing the textbooks — versus the flipside of the people who aren’t in those textbooks demanding or asking or creating a space where they can have that conversation. I think the latter is something that is getting a lot of push back, particularly if we look at K-12 systems across the country right now: that in particular school systems there is this move to really take out Latino ethnic studies.
When we think about that, I think that’s crucial in trying to develop your identity and trying to develop this sense of belonging, the sense of wanting to understand a particular ethnic or racial group better. I think that we don’t do a good job of doing that and I think it may or may not be across the board in the school systems in North Carolina. I think it also has a lot to do with who your teachers are, right? And if they’re going to let you do a project on this particular thing that they might not have any idea about, but if your interested in looking at Latino populations in North Carolina or if you’re interested in looking at the Civil Rights movement in North Carolina — some of those things that, there are going to be teachers and there are going to be people who are going to be better at guiding you through those things. I don’t necessarily think that that was something that I had. I think that I got it from other places. I think that I was challenged to think about those things in different settings and not typically in school.
But I think, now, looking back on it with the college perspective and thinking about, “No, we shouldn’t be having this conversation in a different way.” I think that it’s not just about particular ethnic or racial groups; I think that that’s just in general about how things work in society, that that conversation isn’t had. I think that also has to do with my desire to also include popular education techniques in education and really valuing some of those things over always what is in a book as fact.
JS: You mentioned that you got your sense of identity and different types of learning, I guess, from other places. What were these other places and did they encourage you to go to college?
FA: Yeah, sure. I guess the other big influence I had was the Boys and Girls club. Because I was in a situation where I was with a lot of people who were very different from me, at least racially, I think that that really opened my eyes to having to define myself against them. I think that that’s a lot of our identities are really social in nature, right? I think that that helped me to define myself, but it also, I think, it gave me things to really think about.
How did I navigate — it was sometimes difficult to navigate being the only minority in white classes with having friends who were not in honors and AP classes, but who were racially similar to me, racially and ethnically similar to me. I think a lot of those times it did make me question, like, there’s so much effort being put into what I’m doing and having the Next Generation Venture Fund — having that extra help, it also makes me realize now that, if it took an extra guidance counselor to get me to Duke then is that what is also necessary for every minority student in my high school or is there a different way to go about doing what is already being done in my high school.
I think that I was being encouraged by both the Boys and Girls club side and both from the Next Generation Venture Fund. Both of those programs were really instrumental in helping me see other people of color and really see how it was to be successful while knowing that I was almost in a contradictory position within my honors and AP classes because I was the only person of color. But I think that having that reinforcement in both of those places really helped me because I had a cohort of great friends at the Boys and Girls club and I had a cohort of great friends that I met through the Next Generation Venture Fund. One of them is my best friend who I went to undergrad — we both went to Duke — so, who I’ve known for ten years now. Being able to have conversations with her about and really being able to realize that I could go to them with questions about going to college and — my parents didn’t go to college and so I had a lot of questions about it. But I was very much expected to go to college at that point, both from my parents and both of those programs. I don’t think that there was ever a time that, at least I can remember, that I wasn’t going to go to college.
I talk a lot about this in my — I’m taking a sociology class on education and poverty and racial inequality and we talk a lot about this. About, “Yeah, I got into Duke. But most of us who have gotten into Duke, especially from my minorities and from lower socioeconomic status backgrounds, we’d already had kind of had something along the way. I was marked as gifted academically and in the AIG program when I was —
JS: AIG meaning?
FA: Academically and intellectually gifted. I think it’s changed but I think that’s what it was back then.
JS: Oh, back home it was called TAG, tag.
FA: Yeah, I think it’s similar. I guess marked for that in fourth or fifth grade, and so really knowing that, I think that it’s awesome now, especially the sociologist in me really looking at, “Wait a minute, what was, kind of, the intervention that kind of set me on this trajectory?” Going through that program, going through Duke TIP during summers, going through the Next Generation Venture Fund — having all of these things along the way, but then realizing, too, at some point, like I had these things, but I am, I think, rare for the minority students from my hometown. I think that that’s disheartening a lot of the times for me. I think it’s also my responsibility now to go back and think about, “How do we encourage students, but how do we also change that system that I went through?” I can encourage students all day, but if the support isn’t there to back them up, if they’re not getting that reinforcement people that they see on a regular basis, then there is going to be — (collecting thoughts) if that’s not reinforced, then why would they continue doing that?
I think a lot about that going forward, but I also think that I have a responsibility to tell them the pros and the cons, right? So the cons of going to Duke; being another minority in a very white space; going to graduate school and being even more of a minority; and being in a minority in a racial and ethnic sense, but also in the gender sense of the word as well. I think that is the responsibility that I have now: is to be transparent about all of those things. That’s why whenever I’m talking to students about what they want to do, I be sure to let them know that there’s going to be pros and cons about everything. If you go to community college, there’s going to be a pro to being able to see your family and being able to distress in that way and being able to really be with your family in the way, that if you’re going even four hours away, that’s far for me. Now, two of my sisters have children and I don’t get to see them as often.
JS: And your sisters are back in Hendersonville?
FA: Yes, both of my sisters are back in Hendersonville. And so, I think that we had that conversation when we were in Guanajuato. That question about, “What am I? What do I value and why have I been taught to value this thing?” When I say that education may or may not a great equalizer, however you want to take that, there are going to be costs to that, right. I think that that sometimes we don’t think about the mental cost that is going to have. Whenever — and this goes back to your question, I think your general thing that you might be looking at about diversity and how you being the sole person within a program, within a school — you being that minority person in particular there are going to be costs to that. I think that something that we’ve talking a lot about in my programs and in my department with younger students that I mentor at Duke we’re talking about this diversity question. Is numbers, is that what we’re striving to do, is just get an equal number of Asian students, of black students, of Latino students and white students? Is that what we’re really reaching for or is it, I think — one of my professor gave an acceptance speech for a diversity award that my department received about this issue of deeper diversity? Deeper diversity being, “Well, is there a space where I feel comfortable being on this college campus? Are there programs that I can feel that I can explore my identity? Is there a Latino center? Is there different courses that are being taught that can really help me explore some of the things that I want to research?” I think that that’s across the board and not just my particular university. I think that that’s across the board that we sometimes have issues really thinking about what does it mean to be a diverse school and is that the same as being an inclusive school.
I think usually it doesn’t mean that. I think usually when we think about diversity, we’re thinking about, “We’ll we let this number — x number of students — into the school this year. That’s look: we have diversity. Are all of our pictures on our websites, they’re diverse. That means we have diversity.” That’s not what diversity is for me. I think we also like to — I think diversity is also equivalent sometimes to, “Oh, but there is that one minority student who is doing everything, who is fine in their department and who is the all-star.” Then we like to sensationalize their story versus, “Well what about the group as the whole? What are their graduation rates looking like? Do they feel like they’re a part of this campus?” I think that those conversations are harder to have, but I think that they’re necessary to have in order to really be inclusive in a more genuine way. But I think that those also have to be like the ethnic studies courses and like the other courses at the high school level, that those are going to have to be demanded in a way that may or may n— that will probably upset the status quo, especially now that we’re in this age of colorblindness and all of these things. My advisor writes a lot of this on and it’s very fresh in my mind, about his work and about how do we combat these claims against affirmative action and how do we go beyond that conversation to make people understand that it’s not just numbers. It has to be more than that because if it was just numbers, everyone should be graduating at the same rate, right? That’s not the case, that’s not what we see.
JS: In class, I kind of had this — I don’t know. I couldn’t really choose between the transformative and the right because, to me, the transformative felt like I was validating, not myself, but other people. Explaining why my diversity in your institution is benefitting you, in addition to benefitting me, instead of being at the most basic level, we’re all human. Here are these basic rights that all of us have, you know? An education is one of them. It’s just like, do I get an education (Audio interrupted here) — am I afforded an equal opportunity to an education because that’s an innate right or because it’s benefitting you?
FA: I think, too, that you can even on the flipside think about, well it could be benefitting you as a minority to be in that space with that white person. But at the same time you have to think about it in the historical context you have to think about who has been doing the gatekeeping. It’s not like integration happened really quickly and I think that that’s something that we don’t remember when we’re having those conversation about, well, there was a process in order for this to happen; that remind us that we’re not so colorblind or we haven’t progressed. We talk a lot about this in just like the atmosphere of the campus or the statues on the campus and how those are reinforcing what was —
JS: Duke has statues, too?
FA: Oh, Duke has statues too. We talk about those often, but I mean some of things that people will say, “No, that’s part of our history.” It’s like, yes, it is part of your history, but do you want to continue to uphold a part of your history that excludes populations of your University. And I know that’s not the popular sentiment, but I think that those are real conversations and when you don’t have those conversations, you think it’s okay to do other things that might be racist or might be oppressive of other minority populations — and minority and all sense of the word there.
JS: It seems like, from what I can gauge, that your experience at Duke was similar to your experience at high school, where you were a minority. I guess my question is, what has really driven you to continue on with your education, even though you are a minority and sometimes you would rather be home and with your family and you know… What continues to — what is the fuel for the fire to continue to seek your education in the hopes of becoming a professor, right?
FA: Yes. I think that there’s two big things that stuck out in my mind. One, is that I do love doing the research and I do want to teach because I want to be in a position where I can challenge these assumptions that people have. Not just assumptions, but these truths that we have been continually told and I want to be able to challenge those things. I know that that’s possible to do at the high school level, but I also recognize that that the people we are in college with they are going to go and do who knows what. But they probably — I mean especially at Duke — the three job kind-of routes that you go, or the post-college routes that you go, are into business — some kind of business — into med school and into law school. And so those three right there, I would like that those people are actually thinking critically about some of the things that they’re doing and I think that sometimes they’re not. I mean I was on that college campus, I know what they’re thinking and what they’re saying. If they actually were challenged to think about those things, they might have a different opinion and they might actually use those opinions to enact actions that would benefit people who have historically been in lower positions.
I think that that for me drives why I am doing graduate school. I think the other piece of it is too, and I think that I go back and forth and struggle with this, is being a role model for other people who might want to do this and at the same time going through it so that I can tell them what the process was and having that option for them and not necessarily wanting to push them in that direction, but say, “Well, this was my experience. I can’t tell you what that person’s experience is but I can tell you what my experience is”. And if that can at least inform other people’s decision making, particularly when it comes to grad school because — I mean I’m a first-generation college student and so I am also a first-generation college student — and so, if that’s something that will be helpful for other students then I think that that’s why I also continue doing it. Especially because what I want to do is also — is really have that critical conversation about, “There’s going to be pros and cons, I’m not going to sit here and lie to you and tell you that graduate school is awesome. But there are days when it is awesome. There are days when I feel like, yeah, I can actually research this and then I can think about how do I use this research to maybe funnel it into the policy part of things.”
And so I think that really knowing those things that I can help other people, and I do find that a lot, particularly Latino students do ask me how it is to be in the department, how it is to be in graduate school, how is to be at Duke in general, as an undergrad? And I think that I am honest with them and that’s all I can do. They can take that information and do with it what they will, but I can honestly say that I’ve tried, I’ve experienced it, this is what I’ve seen. I’ve also at Duke, at least — because I’ve been there for six years now — I’ve been able to see kind of, the transitions, particularly with the Latino student body. I think that’s also been good for me to look at because then I can see, well, it does change. So the environment at each school changes, usually every four years. I can use at least some of that knowledge to inform some of the younger students when they do come and ask me questions about, “What about this professor,” or “What about grad school,” or “How do I go about being mentored in a way that is going to help me get to that point?”
Those are big conversations to have. I kind of fell into that my first year of undergrad and —
JS: Did you have a mentor when you were an undergrad?
FA: Yeah. So, I guess I have different mentors in my life, but my academic mentor I met through my first sociology class. He was my professor in my first sociology class. Through that — and I think that was the first time I had ever been challenged on my viewpoints in such a bizarre way — and so that made me see that what I had been taught up to that point was through a very specific lense. I wanted to continue learning more and then I think through that I did kind of develop a sense of, “Yeah, this is something that I’ve experienced as a Latina within academia,” but also that I am not the only one — there are also other people of color, other women that are also experiencing this — and we don’t ever have that conversation; that we’re all taught that we are going to live the American dream after we graduate from high school. There’s not those, there’s not wage inequality; there’s not some of those things. And so I think that — I don’t know — those things would’ve been more interesting in high school to learn about than kind of the watered-down version of everything we got.
He was mentor for undergrad and now he is my academic advisor. So, I’ve stuck with him because I recognized that what he is discussing isn’t just a Latino issue, it’s not just an African American issue. It’s the whole way that kind of our system was created and how that continues to be reified in ways that are a little bit more abstract now, especially when we’re entering this kind of colorblind age. What was concrete in segregation — some of those things are very concrete — but now how do we explain, kind of, the differences in everything by race when those things are not legal anymore. I think that I’ve learned so much from his mentorship academically that have also impacted my social interactions and the way that I view my past experiences, but I think my other mentors are also people who I think reinforce what I’m learning. But, they were also there to support me no matter what I did early on.
The executive director of my Boys and Girls club is someone who I highly value his opinion because he knew what to say at all the times, whenever I was going through tough times, during second grade through twelfth grade because I had been there all throughout the time period. He knew what to say, he knew how to support me when there were family situations that weren’t going right. But he also did it in a respectful way, where he wasn’t that “Oh no, we need to take pity on you,” type of deal, because that’s not beneficial I think for both parties because it reinforces the other person’s thinking that I do need the pity. But I think it also reinforces that I’m in a situation where I can’t handle it myself. And so, I think he did it in a respectful way where he understood that this is something that I can grow from.
So I think that that’s kind of been my mentor ever since high school, my academic mentor and then I have a mentor who I look to in, kind of, that work-life balance type of deal and she’s my boss, I suppose, at Student Action with Farmworkers. And so, she is just a person who I admire because she is a person who I admire because she does so much social justice work with the organization, but she also has time to really reflect on those things and reflect on making sure that she’s happy. And I think that it’s really hard, especially whenever I’m reading and reading this kind of structural arguments about how our society has developed because it can be depressing to think about in that way because then there’s, if you’re taking that structural argument at its root, then individual change is hard to do. There’s days where I think some of the days that are bad days, particularly in academia for me, are those days where I’ve been just engrossed in this hole and all of this that it’s going on that I forget that there’s this other — there are people who are actively trying to change the system.
I think that that’s where my work with Student Action with Farmworkers reinforces that idea that while there can be systematic change, even it’s a structural issue, there can be ways to impact society at the systematic level. I think she does a great job of reinforcing that for all of us that work for her and making sure that she’s checking in with us at an individual level because she knows that we are people and she knows that we’re going to have issues, that we’re going to have bad days, that we’re going to have good days. I think that she’s done a great job of making sure that I recognize that. The whole, I think, SAF environment for me has been this place that I can de-stress about school, about family stuff, about larger systematic issues without having to house it in this academic-y speech all that time. That’s why I definitely value, I think, all three of their opinions and where they all give me different things I think.
JS: So it seems like support systems, community organizations, have been really fundamental in your academic success. Do you find that — it seems to me that you continue to forge these connections with — Do you find that these type of interactions are lacking in higher ed?
FA: Yes. Well, actually, can you clarify? Do you mean interactions like, individual interactions or like, interactions between community organizations and higher ed?
JS: Kind of both — continuing to foster interaction between this department and organizations in the community that are completely separate from the university. But also, individual (interactions) with this professor and that professor, you know?
FA: Yeah, so I think that I — I guess I can talk about the community organization one first and how that relates. I love the service-learning model. I have — this is my fourth or fifth service-learning class — and I love that model because I need to be able to see how the theory works. I think that that makes the learning more personable and I think that once you can see that face, the face of it, you can also see the humanity of it. I think that’s really important, especially when we do consider that college students are going to be making some decisions, making some higher-level decisions if they’ve never had that experience of being challenged in their thinking through a service-learning course. Then I think that that’s setting them up to think a certain way and to make certain policy decisions that, particularly if they’re policy majors, make certain policy decisions that they’re going to be up here, they might be great, but on the actual ground and in the implementation stage of things they might not be — (interrupted by co-worker, can heard saying “Hey” in the background)
They might not be the best for the people that are actually receiving that particular service. So I think that, yeah, we all have an ideal of how something might work, but it’s great to actually see on the ground how do I fit in here, one, because you are, somehow, going to be contributing to that particular service site and, two, how do I use this to form what I think later on and the decisions I make later on. So I love the service-learning model, and I think it challenges you in a way that you wouldn’t get, particularly if you’re just in a classroom, and reading a book, and doing some of those things. That being said, I think you do have to do a lot of the reading and I think you do have to do a lot of that prep work in order to see the things that you’re going to be looking at and some of those things. I think that it’s also great because I think, particularly with some of the service-learning programs, there is this — it’s a mutually beneficial learning if it’s implemented correctly, I think. And then, I think that that’s also what should be thought about, particularly if you think about universities and colleges throughout this country that may be having negative impacts on the community. So, to take Duke for an example, the land it’s on. If we think about who had to move from certain places and, even though, thinking about it as development — and it’s always a positive — we always have to think about the negative of, well what about gentrification? Or what about the people who are moved so that you can have this space? I think that those are things that, especially if you’re doing a service-learning course, you have deal with and you have to think about it in that way. Whereas if you’re not doing a service-learning course or if you’ve never even stepped off campus, because at Duke it’s really easy to stay on campus and go out only on weekends and go to some of those things and you never have to encounter some of those real life issues and I think that that’s one way service-learning courses have been able to bridge that community and academic realm — realms.
I think on the individual level, at least with Student Action with Farmworkers, we do a lot of presenting to classrooms and trying to educate the public about farmworker issues, but also access to education issues and some of those things. I think that that’s also kind of key and not even it having to be a service-learning class, but really thinking about how do those organization out there, how do we bring them in and really engage them in a way that’s going to be beneficial for the students, for the organization. Whether it’s some think tank coming in and having a presentation to students who are interested in policy, to potentially recruit, like some of those things I think there can be better ways in doing that.
I can only speak from one particular kind of niche within my own school because, like I already told you, most people are doing those three kind of tracks. And so for us though, for us who were thinking of an alternative pathway there was very little ways for us to access some of those things, but because we have done service-learning courses they sent us, kind of, information about this community organization or this policy thing. I think for us it was kind of crucial that we had already made these connections with policy organizations or with non-profits so that we could have some opportunities after we graduated.
I think that there is a lot of work that needs to be done there, but I think that it also falls on the University to make that an important issue. I don’t know if they will because I think that there’s still something about the prestige of Duke and having to deal with that and having to deal with, “We produce this, this, this in person,” and how that relates to then what they’re being routed into. I think it definitely relates to that. I don’t know if that will happen, but I think it’s also up to us to think about it that way because I think that there are programs where they push Duke Engage or just a summer immersion program. But I think, too, that there has to be follow-up with that, right? That may be a very temporary thing and so I think that there’s need to be this continuation of, “Well, what can you do with that? What can you — you don’t have to be a lawyer. You don’t have to go to iBanking. You don’t have to do some of these things to make a difference,” and I think that we are kind of sold that, like we’re sold the American Dream, we’re sold that in order to make a difference you have to do x, y and z and some of those things and this is the way to do it.
I think that’s not always true. I think it also matters what kind of difference you’re trying to make and if you’re trying to make a difference in your own community you don’t necessarily need all the credentials and who are you trying to be validated by. Those are some of the tougher questions that we sometimes don’t have especially when we’re thinking about post-college opportunities.
JS: I think it’s interesting that earlier we were talking about is diversification like numbers and just from this interview, it seems like yes, to some degree that’s important. But, really the diversity of perspectives and thoughts and ways to implement education and things like that. This was a great interview because it really like — you know, maybe at first I was thinking strictly in numbers, but —
FA: Yeah, I mean I think that that’s what the conversation is usually around and I think that, at least the way that I’ve heard it talked about is in phases, right? “Yea, well go with numbers first and then, we’ll have to have a number base to demand some of these inclusive programs and then who knows what that last one looks like, that last phase, because no one’s reached it yet.” So we can’t even talk about the ideal phase. But I think, too, that I don’t know, I go back and forth about why can’t you demand both of those things at the same time and I think it stems back to, well who’s going to be demanding the curriculum and the perspectives and some of those things. Does it have to be the minorities demanding that? Can it not be that, heaven forbid the people who have owned that institution for the longest time, can it not be that they themselves were doing their own research and actually being that person who is saying, “Oh no, we need this and we need this and don’t need it just for the minority students. We need everyone to actually take this course or take this class so that they can be these critical thinkers about the environment that they’re interacting in.” I don’t know. I think that that’s asking a lot to do both of those things at one point in time. I guess the way that it is, is that we do think about numbers, then we try to create this critical mass of people who want more. I think it’s — I don’t know, but I think that what I’ve also heard from administrators is that — that critical mass leaves every four years. That’s really hard when you’re replacing the critical mass, how does that continue? And so the other side is that, “Oh, you get Alumni involved.” It’s just like, well if the alumni are the alumni who were brought here with this particular mind set then no they’re acutally not going to demand these things too.
JS: Is it that, I’m wondering do you get the alumni involved or do you recruit…
FA: I think the recruiting thing wouldn’t work.
JS: Not necessarily recruiting but I don’t know.
FA: Yeah, it’s tough. No, I think about this. But I think that — or at least with the project that I’m working on where we are trying to have this discussion at four-year institutions and two-year instititutions around what are they doing for their Latino students, that we thought about it more as like a we attack at all different levels. So we talk about the institutional, we talk about what are the resources available at the institution now, but then we also think about how do we create this critical mass of people at the same time and critical mass of people who are thinking about this and thinking more just beyond I’m going to graduate, I’m going to make this a different place. That’s the conversation that needs to be had is, “Well, why do I feel alienated when this party is thrown or when this racist party is thrown?” Probably because at some point in time that there was no guidance for that particular group around this. And I mean it is still somewhat falls into that particular groups decision to have a party, but it’s also about “Well we don’t even have the administrative support of people who have even thought about, ‘Oh this might not be a good idea.’”
So we’ve thought about it as more as like, how do we do both of them at the same time because I think those are the conversations that you have, especially when you do consider that that students leave and if you can’t make sure that something stays in place then, yeah, you have to do it all over again every four year. When the administration can tell you to your face that these students are replaced every four years and that that’s why nothing will continue then you know that there’s an issue there. And then there’s that at the institutional level that you’re not going to get any buy-in but you still have to work at what you have and you have to figure out ways to go about doing that. I think it’s different at each university and I think that that’s definitely what we’ve found because we’ve only done these large administrative faculty and have students come and share their viewpoints. But at a two-year institution is going to differ from a four-year, UNC is going to differ from Duke, Duke is going to differ from Meredith and so I think there is different dynamics that play in each one.
That’s difficult, right, to be like, “No, I want one solution.” Well, that’s not how it works. That’ s not how the student body operates right now. That’s not how the administrators operate right now. It’s a really complex issue, but at the same time I think that there are ways to go about moving it. I think sometimes that involves saying very unpopular things. I think that’s kind of the situation we’re in right now at my department around our diversity issues.
That’s why I think it’s really relavent, particularly, right now. Not just at the graduate level, but also a situation where having — one of the Latino student organization on our campus was just approached about having a diverse representation of the Latino students for public, for media materials for the University. The response back — we responded back and his response back was very diplomatic in that it was, “Oh, no that’s not — I wrote it hastily. That’s not what I meant,” type of deal. Sure, we might could give you the benefit of the doubt on the hastily stuff, but at the same time we have to think about you portraying a diverse — racially diverse — university to students who are coming here versus what they actually experience, that is misleading.
We always get, particularly from (gathering thoughts) — I came into the States and I told you my experience about high school and I, I was like, “Oh, this is high school. I mean this is exactly what I experienced in high school,” so I was prepared for that — whereas a lot of our students are coming from, particularly our Latino students, might come from California, where they’re in predominantly Latino spaces. They come to Duke and they’re like, “This is not what I was sold on. This is not what I wanted. This is not what I’ve experienced.” It doesn’t have to be that one person come up to you and calling you a racist comments — that’s not what we’re talking about whenever we’re talking about the ins and outs of diversity and what that feels like. We’re talking about, “How do I feel on this campus? Do I feel like I can express myself and I can be my full self and not have to hide and not have to object when something feel racist because you’re going to be labeled as, ‘Oh no, you’re too sensitive.’”
Those are some of the things we have to think about and it’s really complex. I think that there isn’t always administrative support and so you have find that somewhere else. And, if you don’t, I am all for transferring. If there isn’t an avenue in order to make yourself feel comfortable then I think that you shouldn’t be at that space. I think that that conversation is had early enough. If I do talk to high school students, I tell them, “Well if you’re a minority, you might feel out of place. I’m going to be perfectly honest with you.”
I think there are things that I had to struggle with both at the undergrad and now at the graduate level, but at the same time, there are communities. I think that the people that I’ve found helped me a lot. So finding my mentor early on, knowing my best friend was there, knowing that there was a supportive community of people that were critical about the University — and I think that people really jumped to that conclusion that, “Oh, you can’t be critical of the school that you went to.” It’s just like no. You can — should be critical of the school that you go to be in the end it should help them figure out how to do something better. If that’s not what we’re there for, then we are still really much in that K-12 model of, “I’m a professor. I’m going to tell you what do,” or “I’m a teacher and this is how things are done.”
I think we can’t go about life that way. I mean you can, you can be perfectly happy and do that, but that’s not how, at least, how I want to live my life and that’s not how I want my students as a professor to go around in society. When we talk about diversity, we should talk so much more about more than numbers and it shouldn’t just be based on the numbers because then we’re talking about diversity in one particular way and it’s usually about race. I also don’t think that that’s what diversity is either. I think diversity has a lot of different levels or different ways we should talk about it and it shouldn’t just be based on numbers.
JS: I think that brings it full circle. Thank you so so so much. This was a very insightful, meaningful conversation about diversity. I’m so excited. Thank you, Felicia.
FA: You’re welcome.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Estudiantes; Activistas
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Janell Smith entrevista a Felicia Arriaga en un esfuerzo para entender los problemas de diversidad en instituciones académicas de educación superior, particularmente en lo que se refiere a académicos latinos. Con la esperanza de convertirse en profesora universitaria, Arriaga es una estudiante de posgrado en el departamento de Sociología de la Universidad de Duke, donde ella comenzó su carrera como estudiante de pregrado en 2008 y recibió su pregrado en sociología y psicología en 2012. Ella espera graduarse de su doctorado en 2018. Ella comparte cómo su estatus de ser parte de una minoría le ha ayudado y obstaculizado su carrera universitaria. Arriaga está muy involucrada y comprometida con su comunidad de Hendersonville, en Carolina del Norte. Como hija de trabajadores agrícolas, Arriaga trabaja para mejorar la vida de trabajadores y estudiantes latinos. Ella trabaja para una organización sin fines de lucro que se llama Estudiantes en Acción con Campesinos (SAF, por sus siglas en inglés) que busca condiciones justas y equitativas para los trabajadores agrícolas. Su pasión por la educación y sus experiencias como estudiante latina proveen una perspectiva valiosa sobre la diversidad en la educación superior, especialmente en términos de la inclusión de latinos.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Felicia Arriaga por Janell Smith, 09 Abril 2014, R-0703, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Identidad; Ciudadanía e inmigración; Educación; Activismo; Trabajadores agrícolas
Es: Transcripción
Janell Smith: Okay, this is Janell Smith. I am a sophomore at the University of North Carolina at Chapel here (corrects self) — Hill. I am here with Felicia Arriaga and we are going to conduct an interview tonight. It is about 6:56 p.m. on April 9 of 2014. Today is a Wednesday and we are in the APPLES office located in the Student Union.
So thank you for agreeing to do this Felicia, I know this is last minute but I definitely think you can provide some good insight into some of the research, I guess you could it, that I am doing. I kind of just want to learn more about diversity in higher education as it relates to Latinos being integrated into university departments.
Felicia Arriaga: Great, great. I’m excited.
JS: How about we start with where you are now. You’re a graduate student at Duke, so do you want to talk about how you got to Duke, how you got to graduate school—
FA: Sure.
JS: How you got to your department?
FA: Yeah, I’ll try to give a condensed version, maybe. So… (laughs). I did my undergraduate studies at Duke University and I graduated in May 2012. Now I am a second year Ph.D. student in the sociology department. So, I guess I can talk a lot about the high school preparation that I had, just because that is fresh in my mind and fresh from some of the things that I work on. I think on the side as well about how important college preparation programs are, especially for minority students. I think I can talk a little bit about — I was part of a program called the Next Generation Venture Fund. That program provided, basically, my own guidance counselor that I could interact with and that I could go to if I ever had questions about course selection in high school, later on about SAT prep and then also, whenever I was a junior or senior, about really narrowing down colleges and universities that I would — that I was interested in applying to.
That program was great in general, but I think looking back on it now, too, it was a very specific program that I even had trouble, sort of, explaining to my guidance counselor — my guidance counselor at my local high school — to the point to where I literally was being told how to go about course selection and some of those things I mentioned before by the guidance counselor sort-of-person that was given to me by through the Next Generation Venture Fund.
JS: So this was completely outside of your high school?
FA: Yes. So, it’s completely outside of my high school so there was definitely differences in what my friends were getting as far as college preparation/support went and then definitely another kind of drop off of the people who weren’t even in the honors and AP classes. I can only imagine now what that looked like for them. So that’s also, I think, inspired me to really look at some of the deficiencies there, especially in guidance for high school students, particularly where I’m from in western North Carolina. That’s also allowed me, though, to really think about how can I make to there and make an impact knowing that I’ll be here because I do live in Durham and I do not get to go back that often and I also don’t want to be this shadow and not present there. I’ve toyed with the idea of what that looks like a lot, and so I’ve thought about starting a scholarship for my local high school, particularly geared towards encouraging Latino student college access.
What that means is that I would ideally like for a Latino high school student at my high school to sort of bring together other Latino students and really have a discussion about what are the best ways to get to college, what are some of the options for college, what are some of the challenges we’re going to face, how do we make it so that we have a voice and that whenever we go to certain people they’re not telling us off or maybe giving us all of the information because they might still hold that view that Latinos aren’t graduating, or aren’t going to high school or aren’t going to college and aren’t able to do some of that work, which I think I’ve been surprised by some of those stories that some of the high school students have told me about their interactions, not just with guidance counselors, but also with high school teachers in general and some other community members and very much trying to — we would like to try to combat that and make sure that those students feel that they have some where to go and someone to talk to about it. That’s kind of the work that I do back home is really trying to create…(Minor interruption in recording due to technical issue.)
JS: It’s there.
FA: Okay.
JS: Where students, sorry…
FA: Really trying to create an environment where students feel that they can talk to not just other students about it but also that they can talk to teachers, professors, really kind of creating that community there and that’s a work in progress, but I think that it is moving in the right direction. We have gotten a lot of support from teachers, from guidance counselors, from people who work in the community college system. I think it’s all of those things that need to be talked about all at the same time, and even if it, especially for parents and for people who this is their students are going to be — or their students are going to be the first generation — it can be a lot. But we hope, that in creating that space where you know who you can ask about certain things, that they will be more willing to ask some of these things and so that we can actually change or encourage those students to go to college if they want to.
I think that we always tend to think that education is the great equalizer and I think that in reality you have to think about…(pauses) education might be great for some people, but other people might also have a different idea about what they want to do with their lives, especially at a younger age and especially when they have gone through situations in their own lives where they’ve already had to become adults very early. I think that if they know that they want to go do certain things within the health services and they don’t necessarily need a college education to do that, I think that is something we should be guiding students to do — is how do I make that connection with someone, especially if their current life situation calls for them to maybe provide for a child or something. I think that this is — the college conversation is one that we are having, but we’re also having it with people who might not think that college is right for them and I think that that is also maybe a difficulty, particularly if we are trying to create a program that is a college preparation program. I don’t think that that is necessarily what we’re trying to create there. I think we are trying to create really the space where we can have conversations about college, just about post-high school. I think is what we’re generally interested in looking at and also really tailoring it towards the community because, I think if the community is needing certain things, it’s needing interpreters on one level, especially for communities in the Southeast that are newer Latino communities. They still are very much — they still need basic service interpreters or some of those things that I think that we should all be thinking about that. About how do we really encourage the people that are there to use the skills they to have to benefit the larger community as a whole as well.
JS: You’ve been talking a lot about home. What are the demographics like back…
FA: That’s a good question.
JS: You said somewhere in western Carolina.
FA: So I live — well my family lives in Hendersonville, North Carolina. It’s southeast of Asheville, North Carolina. I actually don’t – I looked this up recently — I don’t know all of the demographics, but we do have an increasing Latino population. Part of that is, or at least, I think most of probably the parents, of my friends and my parents as well, were farmworkers and were migrant workers. It’s also been that those families have stayed there and might have other jobs now, but their children, as I mentioned prior to this, but the people around my age and just a few years older, we kind of are those first people that have gone through the K-12 education system in our area. I think this issue of college access is really important to us because, for us we made it through college. Most of us, or the handful of us that were able to finish high school and went on to college, we’ve finished college at this point and so we’re really — I think — looking back and trying to figure out, well we were kind of those pioneers, I guess to use a cliché term: the people who were definitely the first in our classes and the first Latino students in the AP classes, the honors classes. But now we really want to think about, well it shouldn’t still be the case that there’s only one Latino or one Hispanic. This doesn’t, definitely just doesn’t apply to the Latino population. I think this is something that we should think about in general for all minority students, but particularly that I am interested in kind of, some of the work that I interested in is geared specifically towards Latinos. That’s where I’ve really thought about how to build up that capacity of the Latino college-going community and how that fits into this narrative. I think that being said though, that the demographics — the people I was usually around — actually differed because I went through a boys and girls club program. The demographics there when I was going there was one-thirds black, one-thirds white, and one-thirds Hispanic or Latino.
That was a little bit different in that demographic I was with there was very different than my high school classroom. I think having that experience and having those interactions with people who were very different from me has also made me think about it as that issue of how are minorities fairing in general versus having a different conversation around, “Oh well,” — and this is what we hear all the time, was this like — “Oh, if there’s a Latino student made it then every other student can make it,” or “If there’s an Asian student that made then what are the other minority groups doing wrong?” I think that that’s crucial to think about it in this holistic view of if everyone achieving at the same level. Should they be achieving at the same level, given the circumstances that they’re in and that resources that have been put into their education.
At least that is a little bit of the demographics, but in my high school there was (pauses to think)…In my AP and honors classes, whenever I was in high school, I was probably the only person of color or there was one other Latina who actually when to Chapel Hill or went to Chapel Hill for two years. She ended up transferring into Chapel Hill. Just thinking about those demographics, I now know a handful of people that were in my year and there’s very few of us. I think that the work that I have been able to do in Hendersonville now, and really trying to gather this people-who-have-gone-to-college population, it’s really made me realize, too, that I didn’t know other people in the other high schools in my county, especially who are Latino. I think that is also something that I’ve really thought about, too, is how do we foster not just within the high school that community, but how do we foster it across the whole county. I think that it does happen, but we still see that people don’t know, like people aren’t having — the students might hang out at a family function or somebody’s party or something, but they’re not having this conversation around do you want to go to college. That’s the conversation that I think is crucial to have and I think, too, that it doesn’t necessarily have to be that all of them want to go to UNC or Duke. I think that it’s also good for them to have the conversation of, “Some of us want to go to community college”. Some of it might be that, “I can’t afford to go to UNC or Duke,” or “I want to be close to my family.”
I think that those are conversations that it’s good to have them with people at different levels. That’s definitely something that we’ve been encouraging and we try to, when we’ve done panels for college access nights, that we kind of had that array of people who’ve gone to community college, what they’re doing now; people who have gone to four year colleges, what are they doing now, what were some of the pros and cons to thinking about that; and then we’ve had students who went to community college and are transferring now to a four-year institution. I think having those different levels and also having those different levels for the students to know about, but also for their parents to know about. I think, too, that that’s also key in even having that conversation with parents about the differences because, especially if we’re talking about Latino parents who might speak Spanish, that the names aren’t the same in Spanish as they are in English. Like “colegio” and “la universidad” are very different and, so, whenever we start a presentation there is a very break down of, “This is what a college is,” “This is what a community college is,” “This is what a university is,” and we’re trying to have that conversation, particularly for people who might not know the differences. That’s a common question that we get is, “What are the differences between these different things,” “What can I do with them?” That’s generally what some of the conversations we have around those things are.
JS: In your high school were there any Latino or Latina teachers?
FA: I was thinking about that the other day because I was trying to think about someone else to interview for my project, actually, and I was thinking about that. There was my Spanish teacher, who was from Colombia. She retired, but I think she was the only person of color that was a teacher in my school. In the middle school we did have, maybe two people or two teachers that were of color, but at the high school level I think it was just my Spanish teacher. I’ve thought a lot about that, especially with my project. My project that I am working on for the Global Guanajuato class is looking at exactly that: kind of the representation of Latinos within the K-12 education system, who are they, where are they coming from, how do they get to North Carolina, whether or not they are my age population — so, technically, yes some of my friends could be educators, but they’re not, why is that? In what I’ve found, at least in my stuff, is that the teachers around here, they’ve come here through a teacher exchange program from their country, which is a very different demographic than the people that we think of as immigrants in this state, I think. I’ve definitely been interested in thinking about that. I don’t think we have a teacher of color right now in my high school.
JS: Do you think that influenced your high school career in any way? Maybe you didn’t realize it then, but in retrospect…
FA: Yeah, yeah. I know what you’re asking and I think it did in they way that it — I think two things. One, I guess I didn’t know what teaching really entails and since I didn’t know that there was…(formulating idea). I don’t know I think, I don’t how to explain that. Maybe I’ll just go on to my other point because I don’t know how to explain that. But, I think that it did in the sense that — not saying that a white teacher or a black teacher can’t tell me about Latino culture, I don’t think that that’s what I’m saying, I’m thinking that there was no one there to have that conversation with. Now, I’m looking back on it because I do work a lot with high school students and college students. I think that is really important to have that sense of identity and to really think about how do I fit into this.
I think, too, that it shows that you’re not being taught to think critically in high school because I think if think about it, like what we’re being taught in history classes are some of those things about who won what wars and what actually happened. I think if you were taught to think about it in a critical way, you would have these questions about, “Well, wait a minute, none of these people look like me. How do they fit into this narrative that we’re being taught in schools? How does that fit into why don’t we have a heritage center for Latinos or for all the different groups that have come to this particular location?”
I think, too, that one is that the actual, that that identity and that willingness to actually bring up some of these issues has to start somewhere. I think this is what I was talking about a little bit yesterday in class, too, was this idea of transformative education versus the right to education. I think it goes back to that. Someone is holding — someone has written those texts books and has written them in a way that is going to showcase a certain type of history. One, it can be that we get new textbooks and we write history in a different way —that can either be done by people who are in charge of writing the textbooks — versus the flipside of the people who aren’t in those textbooks demanding or asking or creating a space where they can have that conversation. I think the latter is something that is getting a lot of push back, particularly if we look at K-12 systems across the country right now: that in particular school systems there is this move to really take out Latino ethnic studies.
When we think about that, I think that’s crucial in trying to develop your identity and trying to develop this sense of belonging, the sense of wanting to understand a particular ethnic or racial group better. I think that we don’t do a good job of doing that and I think it may or may not be across the board in the school systems in North Carolina. I think it also has a lot to do with who your teachers are, right? And if they’re going to let you do a project on this particular thing that they might not have any idea about, but if your interested in looking at Latino populations in North Carolina or if you’re interested in looking at the Civil Rights movement in North Carolina — some of those things that, there are going to be teachers and there are going to be people who are going to be better at guiding you through those things. I don’t necessarily think that that was something that I had. I think that I got it from other places. I think that I was challenged to think about those things in different settings and not typically in school.
But I think, now, looking back on it with the college perspective and thinking about, “No, we shouldn’t be having this conversation in a different way.” I think that it’s not just about particular ethnic or racial groups; I think that that’s just in general about how things work in society, that that conversation isn’t had. I think that also has to do with my desire to also include popular education techniques in education and really valuing some of those things over always what is in a book as fact.
JS: You mentioned that you got your sense of identity and different types of learning, I guess, from other places. What were these other places and did they encourage you to go to college?
FA: Yeah, sure. I guess the other big influence I had was the Boys and Girls club. Because I was in a situation where I was with a lot of people who were very different from me, at least racially, I think that that really opened my eyes to having to define myself against them. I think that that’s a lot of our identities are really social in nature, right? I think that that helped me to define myself, but it also, I think, it gave me things to really think about.
How did I navigate — it was sometimes difficult to navigate being the only minority in white classes with having friends who were not in honors and AP classes, but who were racially similar to me, racially and ethnically similar to me. I think a lot of those times it did make me question, like, there’s so much effort being put into what I’m doing and having the Next Generation Venture Fund — having that extra help, it also makes me realize now that, if it took an extra guidance counselor to get me to Duke then is that what is also necessary for every minority student in my high school or is there a different way to go about doing what is already being done in my high school.
I think that I was being encouraged by both the Boys and Girls club side and both from the Next Generation Venture Fund. Both of those programs were really instrumental in helping me see other people of color and really see how it was to be successful while knowing that I was almost in a contradictory position within my honors and AP classes because I was the only person of color. But I think that having that reinforcement in both of those places really helped me because I had a cohort of great friends at the Boys and Girls club and I had a cohort of great friends that I met through the Next Generation Venture Fund. One of them is my best friend who I went to undergrad — we both went to Duke — so, who I’ve known for ten years now. Being able to have conversations with her about and really being able to realize that I could go to them with questions about going to college and — my parents didn’t go to college and so I had a lot of questions about it. But I was very much expected to go to college at that point, both from my parents and both of those programs. I don’t think that there was ever a time that, at least I can remember, that I wasn’t going to go to college.
I talk a lot about this in my — I’m taking a sociology class on education and poverty and racial inequality and we talk a lot about this. About, “Yeah, I got into Duke. But most of us who have gotten into Duke, especially from my minorities and from lower socioeconomic status backgrounds, we’d already had kind of had something along the way. I was marked as gifted academically and in the AIG program when I was —
JS: AIG meaning?
FA: Academically and intellectually gifted. I think it’s changed but I think that’s what it was back then.
JS: Oh, back home it was called TAG, tag.
FA: Yeah, I think it’s similar. I guess marked for that in fourth or fifth grade, and so really knowing that, I think that it’s awesome now, especially the sociologist in me really looking at, “Wait a minute, what was, kind of, the intervention that kind of set me on this trajectory?” Going through that program, going through Duke TIP during summers, going through the Next Generation Venture Fund — having all of these things along the way, but then realizing, too, at some point, like I had these things, but I am, I think, rare for the minority students from my hometown. I think that that’s disheartening a lot of the times for me. I think it’s also my responsibility now to go back and think about, “How do we encourage students, but how do we also change that system that I went through?” I can encourage students all day, but if the support isn’t there to back them up, if they’re not getting that reinforcement people that they see on a regular basis, then there is going to be — (collecting thoughts) if that’s not reinforced, then why would they continue doing that?
I think a lot about that going forward, but I also think that I have a responsibility to tell them the pros and the cons, right? So the cons of going to Duke; being another minority in a very white space; going to graduate school and being even more of a minority; and being in a minority in a racial and ethnic sense, but also in the gender sense of the word as well. I think that is the responsibility that I have now: is to be transparent about all of those things. That’s why whenever I’m talking to students about what they want to do, I be sure to let them know that there’s going to be pros and cons about everything. If you go to community college, there’s going to be a pro to being able to see your family and being able to distress in that way and being able to really be with your family in the way, that if you’re going even four hours away, that’s far for me. Now, two of my sisters have children and I don’t get to see them as often.
JS: And your sisters are back in Hendersonville?
FA: Yes, both of my sisters are back in Hendersonville. And so, I think that we had that conversation when we were in Guanajuato. That question about, “What am I? What do I value and why have I been taught to value this thing?” When I say that education may or may not a great equalizer, however you want to take that, there are going to be costs to that, right. I think that that sometimes we don’t think about the mental cost that is going to have. Whenever — and this goes back to your question, I think your general thing that you might be looking at about diversity and how you being the sole person within a program, within a school — you being that minority person in particular there are going to be costs to that. I think that something that we’ve talking a lot about in my programs and in my department with younger students that I mentor at Duke we’re talking about this diversity question. Is numbers, is that what we’re striving to do, is just get an equal number of Asian students, of black students, of Latino students and white students? Is that what we’re really reaching for or is it, I think — one of my professor gave an acceptance speech for a diversity award that my department received about this issue of deeper diversity? Deeper diversity being, “Well, is there a space where I feel comfortable being on this college campus? Are there programs that I can feel that I can explore my identity? Is there a Latino center? Is there different courses that are being taught that can really help me explore some of the things that I want to research?” I think that that’s across the board and not just my particular university. I think that that’s across the board that we sometimes have issues really thinking about what does it mean to be a diverse school and is that the same as being an inclusive school.
I think usually it doesn’t mean that. I think usually when we think about diversity, we’re thinking about, “We’ll we let this number — x number of students — into the school this year. That’s look: we have diversity. Are all of our pictures on our websites, they’re diverse. That means we have diversity.” That’s not what diversity is for me. I think we also like to — I think diversity is also equivalent sometimes to, “Oh, but there is that one minority student who is doing everything, who is fine in their department and who is the all-star.” Then we like to sensationalize their story versus, “Well what about the group as the whole? What are their graduation rates looking like? Do they feel like they’re a part of this campus?” I think that those conversations are harder to have, but I think that they’re necessary to have in order to really be inclusive in a more genuine way. But I think that those also have to be like the ethnic studies courses and like the other courses at the high school level, that those are going to have to be demanded in a way that may or may n— that will probably upset the status quo, especially now that we’re in this age of colorblindness and all of these things. My advisor writes a lot of this on and it’s very fresh in my mind, about his work and about how do we combat these claims against affirmative action and how do we go beyond that conversation to make people understand that it’s not just numbers. It has to be more than that because if it was just numbers, everyone should be graduating at the same rate, right? That’s not the case, that’s not what we see.
JS: In class, I kind of had this — I don’t know. I couldn’t really choose between the transformative and the right because, to me, the transformative felt like I was validating, not myself, but other people. Explaining why my diversity in your institution is benefitting you, in addition to benefitting me, instead of being at the most basic level, we’re all human. Here are these basic rights that all of us have, you know? An education is one of them. It’s just like, do I get an education (Audio interrupted here) — am I afforded an equal opportunity to an education because that’s an innate right or because it’s benefitting you?
FA: I think, too, that you can even on the flipside think about, well it could be benefitting you as a minority to be in that space with that white person. But at the same time you have to think about it in the historical context you have to think about who has been doing the gatekeeping. It’s not like integration happened really quickly and I think that that’s something that we don’t remember when we’re having those conversation about, well, there was a process in order for this to happen; that remind us that we’re not so colorblind or we haven’t progressed. We talk a lot about this in just like the atmosphere of the campus or the statues on the campus and how those are reinforcing what was —
JS: Duke has statues, too?
FA: Oh, Duke has statues too. We talk about those often, but I mean some of things that people will say, “No, that’s part of our history.” It’s like, yes, it is part of your history, but do you want to continue to uphold a part of your history that excludes populations of your University. And I know that’s not the popular sentiment, but I think that those are real conversations and when you don’t have those conversations, you think it’s okay to do other things that might be racist or might be oppressive of other minority populations — and minority and all sense of the word there.
JS: It seems like, from what I can gauge, that your experience at Duke was similar to your experience at high school, where you were a minority. I guess my question is, what has really driven you to continue on with your education, even though you are a minority and sometimes you would rather be home and with your family and you know… What continues to — what is the fuel for the fire to continue to seek your education in the hopes of becoming a professor, right?
FA: Yes. I think that there’s two big things that stuck out in my mind. One, is that I do love doing the research and I do want to teach because I want to be in a position where I can challenge these assumptions that people have. Not just assumptions, but these truths that we have been continually told and I want to be able to challenge those things. I know that that’s possible to do at the high school level, but I also recognize that that the people we are in college with they are going to go and do who knows what. But they probably — I mean especially at Duke — the three job kind-of routes that you go, or the post-college routes that you go, are into business — some kind of business — into med school and into law school. And so those three right there, I would like that those people are actually thinking critically about some of the things that they’re doing and I think that sometimes they’re not. I mean I was on that college campus, I know what they’re thinking and what they’re saying. If they actually were challenged to think about those things, they might have a different opinion and they might actually use those opinions to enact actions that would benefit people who have historically been in lower positions.
I think that that for me drives why I am doing graduate school. I think the other piece of it is too, and I think that I go back and forth and struggle with this, is being a role model for other people who might want to do this and at the same time going through it so that I can tell them what the process was and having that option for them and not necessarily wanting to push them in that direction, but say, “Well, this was my experience. I can’t tell you what that person’s experience is but I can tell you what my experience is”. And if that can at least inform other people’s decision making, particularly when it comes to grad school because — I mean I’m a first-generation college student and so I am also a first-generation college student — and so, if that’s something that will be helpful for other students then I think that that’s why I also continue doing it. Especially because what I want to do is also — is really have that critical conversation about, “There’s going to be pros and cons, I’m not going to sit here and lie to you and tell you that graduate school is awesome. But there are days when it is awesome. There are days when I feel like, yeah, I can actually research this and then I can think about how do I use this research to maybe funnel it into the policy part of things.”
And so I think that really knowing those things that I can help other people, and I do find that a lot, particularly Latino students do ask me how it is to be in the department, how it is to be in graduate school, how is to be at Duke in general, as an undergrad? And I think that I am honest with them and that’s all I can do. They can take that information and do with it what they will, but I can honestly say that I’ve tried, I’ve experienced it, this is what I’ve seen. I’ve also at Duke, at least — because I’ve been there for six years now — I’ve been able to see kind of, the transitions, particularly with the Latino student body. I think that’s also been good for me to look at because then I can see, well, it does change. So the environment at each school changes, usually every four years. I can use at least some of that knowledge to inform some of the younger students when they do come and ask me questions about, “What about this professor,” or “What about grad school,” or “How do I go about being mentored in a way that is going to help me get to that point?”
Those are big conversations to have. I kind of fell into that my first year of undergrad and —
JS: Did you have a mentor when you were an undergrad?
FA: Yeah. So, I guess I have different mentors in my life, but my academic mentor I met through my first sociology class. He was my professor in my first sociology class. Through that — and I think that was the first time I had ever been challenged on my viewpoints in such a bizarre way — and so that made me see that what I had been taught up to that point was through a very specific lense. I wanted to continue learning more and then I think through that I did kind of develop a sense of, “Yeah, this is something that I’ve experienced as a Latina within academia,” but also that I am not the only one — there are also other people of color, other women that are also experiencing this — and we don’t ever have that conversation; that we’re all taught that we are going to live the American dream after we graduate from high school. There’s not those, there’s not wage inequality; there’s not some of those things. And so I think that — I don’t know — those things would’ve been more interesting in high school to learn about than kind of the watered-down version of everything we got.
He was mentor for undergrad and now he is my academic advisor. So, I’ve stuck with him because I recognized that what he is discussing isn’t just a Latino issue, it’s not just an African American issue. It’s the whole way that kind of our system was created and how that continues to be reified in ways that are a little bit more abstract now, especially when we’re entering this kind of colorblind age. What was concrete in segregation — some of those things are very concrete — but now how do we explain, kind of, the differences in everything by race when those things are not legal anymore. I think that I’ve learned so much from his mentorship academically that have also impacted my social interactions and the way that I view my past experiences, but I think my other mentors are also people who I think reinforce what I’m learning. But, they were also there to support me no matter what I did early on.
The executive director of my Boys and Girls club is someone who I highly value his opinion because he knew what to say at all the times, whenever I was going through tough times, during second grade through twelfth grade because I had been there all throughout the time period. He knew what to say, he knew how to support me when there were family situations that weren’t going right. But he also did it in a respectful way, where he wasn’t that “Oh no, we need to take pity on you,” type of deal, because that’s not beneficial I think for both parties because it reinforces the other person’s thinking that I do need the pity. But I think it also reinforces that I’m in a situation where I can’t handle it myself. And so, I think he did it in a respectful way where he understood that this is something that I can grow from.
So I think that that’s kind of been my mentor ever since high school, my academic mentor and then I have a mentor who I look to in, kind of, that work-life balance type of deal and she’s my boss, I suppose, at Student Action with Farmworkers. And so, she is just a person who I admire because she is a person who I admire because she does so much social justice work with the organization, but she also has time to really reflect on those things and reflect on making sure that she’s happy. And I think that it’s really hard, especially whenever I’m reading and reading this kind of structural arguments about how our society has developed because it can be depressing to think about in that way because then there’s, if you’re taking that structural argument at its root, then individual change is hard to do. There’s days where I think some of the days that are bad days, particularly in academia for me, are those days where I’ve been just engrossed in this hole and all of this that it’s going on that I forget that there’s this other — there are people who are actively trying to change the system.
I think that that’s where my work with Student Action with Farmworkers reinforces that idea that while there can be systematic change, even it’s a structural issue, there can be ways to impact society at the systematic level. I think she does a great job of reinforcing that for all of us that work for her and making sure that she’s checking in with us at an individual level because she knows that we are people and she knows that we’re going to have issues, that we’re going to have bad days, that we’re going to have good days. I think that she’s done a great job of making sure that I recognize that. The whole, I think, SAF environment for me has been this place that I can de-stress about school, about family stuff, about larger systematic issues without having to house it in this academic-y speech all that time. That’s why I definitely value, I think, all three of their opinions and where they all give me different things I think.
JS: So it seems like support systems, community organizations, have been really fundamental in your academic success. Do you find that — it seems to me that you continue to forge these connections with — Do you find that these type of interactions are lacking in higher ed?
FA: Yes. Well, actually, can you clarify? Do you mean interactions like, individual interactions or like, interactions between community organizations and higher ed?
JS: Kind of both — continuing to foster interaction between this department and organizations in the community that are completely separate from the university. But also, individual (interactions) with this professor and that professor, you know?
FA: Yeah, so I think that I — I guess I can talk about the community organization one first and how that relates. I love the service-learning model. I have — this is my fourth or fifth service-learning class — and I love that model because I need to be able to see how the theory works. I think that that makes the learning more personable and I think that once you can see that face, the face of it, you can also see the humanity of it. I think that’s really important, especially when we do consider that college students are going to be making some decisions, making some higher-level decisions if they’ve never had that experience of being challenged in their thinking through a service-learning course. Then I think that that’s setting them up to think a certain way and to make certain policy decisions that, particularly if they’re policy majors, make certain policy decisions that they’re going to be up here, they might be great, but on the actual ground and in the implementation stage of things they might not be — (interrupted by co-worker, can heard saying “Hey” in the background)
They might not be the best for the people that are actually receiving that particular service. So I think that, yeah, we all have an ideal of how something might work, but it’s great to actually see on the ground how do I fit in here, one, because you are, somehow, going to be contributing to that particular service site and, two, how do I use this to form what I think later on and the decisions I make later on. So I love the service-learning model, and I think it challenges you in a way that you wouldn’t get, particularly if you’re just in a classroom, and reading a book, and doing some of those things. That being said, I think you do have to do a lot of the reading and I think you do have to do a lot of that prep work in order to see the things that you’re going to be looking at and some of those things. I think that it’s also great because I think, particularly with some of the service-learning programs, there is this — it’s a mutually beneficial learning if it’s implemented correctly, I think. And then, I think that that’s also what should be thought about, particularly if you think about universities and colleges throughout this country that may be having negative impacts on the community. So, to take Duke for an example, the land it’s on. If we think about who had to move from certain places and, even though, thinking about it as development — and it’s always a positive — we always have to think about the negative of, well what about gentrification? Or what about the people who are moved so that you can have this space? I think that those are things that, especially if you’re doing a service-learning course, you have deal with and you have to think about it in that way. Whereas if you’re not doing a service-learning course or if you’ve never even stepped off campus, because at Duke it’s really easy to stay on campus and go out only on weekends and go to some of those things and you never have to encounter some of those real life issues and I think that that’s one way service-learning courses have been able to bridge that community and academic realm — realms.
I think on the individual level, at least with Student Action with Farmworkers, we do a lot of presenting to classrooms and trying to educate the public about farmworker issues, but also access to education issues and some of those things. I think that that’s also kind of key and not even it having to be a service-learning class, but really thinking about how do those organization out there, how do we bring them in and really engage them in a way that’s going to be beneficial for the students, for the organization. Whether it’s some think tank coming in and having a presentation to students who are interested in policy, to potentially recruit, like some of those things I think there can be better ways in doing that.
I can only speak from one particular kind of niche within my own school because, like I already told you, most people are doing those three kind of tracks. And so for us though, for us who were thinking of an alternative pathway there was very little ways for us to access some of those things, but because we have done service-learning courses they sent us, kind of, information about this community organization or this policy thing. I think for us it was kind of crucial that we had already made these connections with policy organizations or with non-profits so that we could have some opportunities after we graduated.
I think that there is a lot of work that needs to be done there, but I think that it also falls on the University to make that an important issue. I don’t know if they will because I think that there’s still something about the prestige of Duke and having to deal with that and having to deal with, “We produce this, this, this in person,” and how that relates to then what they’re being routed into. I think it definitely relates to that. I don’t know if that will happen, but I think it’s also up to us to think about it that way because I think that there are programs where they push Duke Engage or just a summer immersion program. But I think, too, that there has to be follow-up with that, right? That may be a very temporary thing and so I think that there’s need to be this continuation of, “Well, what can you do with that? What can you — you don’t have to be a lawyer. You don’t have to go to iBanking. You don’t have to do some of these things to make a difference,” and I think that we are kind of sold that, like we’re sold the American Dream, we’re sold that in order to make a difference you have to do x, y and z and some of those things and this is the way to do it.
I think that’s not always true. I think it also matters what kind of difference you’re trying to make and if you’re trying to make a difference in your own community you don’t necessarily need all the credentials and who are you trying to be validated by. Those are some of the tougher questions that we sometimes don’t have especially when we’re thinking about post-college opportunities.
JS: I think it’s interesting that earlier we were talking about is diversification like numbers and just from this interview, it seems like yes, to some degree that’s important. But, really the diversity of perspectives and thoughts and ways to implement education and things like that. This was a great interview because it really like — you know, maybe at first I was thinking strictly in numbers, but —
FA: Yeah, I mean I think that that’s what the conversation is usually around and I think that, at least the way that I’ve heard it talked about is in phases, right? “Yea, well go with numbers first and then, we’ll have to have a number base to demand some of these inclusive programs and then who knows what that last one looks like, that last phase, because no one’s reached it yet.” So we can’t even talk about the ideal phase. But I think, too, that I don’t know, I go back and forth about why can’t you demand both of those things at the same time and I think it stems back to, well who’s going to be demanding the curriculum and the perspectives and some of those things. Does it have to be the minorities demanding that? Can it not be that, heaven forbid the people who have owned that institution for the longest time, can it not be that they themselves were doing their own research and actually being that person who is saying, “Oh no, we need this and we need this and don’t need it just for the minority students. We need everyone to actually take this course or take this class so that they can be these critical thinkers about the environment that they’re interacting in.” I don’t know. I think that that’s asking a lot to do both of those things at one point in time. I guess the way that it is, is that we do think about numbers, then we try to create this critical mass of people who want more. I think it’s — I don’t know, but I think that what I’ve also heard from administrators is that — that critical mass leaves every four years. That’s really hard when you’re replacing the critical mass, how does that continue? And so the other side is that, “Oh, you get Alumni involved.” It’s just like, well if the alumni are the alumni who were brought here with this particular mind set then no they’re acutally not going to demand these things too.
JS: Is it that, I’m wondering do you get the alumni involved or do you recruit…
FA: I think the recruiting thing wouldn’t work.
JS: Not necessarily recruiting but I don’t know.
FA: Yeah, it’s tough. No, I think about this. But I think that — or at least with the project that I’m working on where we are trying to have this discussion at four-year institutions and two-year instititutions around what are they doing for their Latino students, that we thought about it more as like a we attack at all different levels. So we talk about the institutional, we talk about what are the resources available at the institution now, but then we also think about how do we create this critical mass of people at the same time and critical mass of people who are thinking about this and thinking more just beyond I’m going to graduate, I’m going to make this a different place. That’s the conversation that needs to be had is, “Well, why do I feel alienated when this party is thrown or when this racist party is thrown?” Probably because at some point in time that there was no guidance for that particular group around this. And I mean it is still somewhat falls into that particular groups decision to have a party, but it’s also about “Well we don’t even have the administrative support of people who have even thought about, ‘Oh this might not be a good idea.’”
So we’ve thought about it as more as like, how do we do both of them at the same time because I think those are the conversations that you have, especially when you do consider that that students leave and if you can’t make sure that something stays in place then, yeah, you have to do it all over again every four year. When the administration can tell you to your face that these students are replaced every four years and that that’s why nothing will continue then you know that there’s an issue there. And then there’s that at the institutional level that you’re not going to get any buy-in but you still have to work at what you have and you have to figure out ways to go about doing that. I think it’s different at each university and I think that that’s definitely what we’ve found because we’ve only done these large administrative faculty and have students come and share their viewpoints. But at a two-year institution is going to differ from a four-year, UNC is going to differ from Duke, Duke is going to differ from Meredith and so I think there is different dynamics that play in each one.
That’s difficult, right, to be like, “No, I want one solution.” Well, that’s not how it works. That’ s not how the student body operates right now. That’s not how the administrators operate right now. It’s a really complex issue, but at the same time I think that there are ways to go about moving it. I think sometimes that involves saying very unpopular things. I think that’s kind of the situation we’re in right now at my department around our diversity issues.
That’s why I think it’s really relavent, particularly, right now. Not just at the graduate level, but also a situation where having — one of the Latino student organization on our campus was just approached about having a diverse representation of the Latino students for public, for media materials for the University. The response back — we responded back and his response back was very diplomatic in that it was, “Oh, no that’s not — I wrote it hastily. That’s not what I meant,” type of deal. Sure, we might could give you the benefit of the doubt on the hastily stuff, but at the same time we have to think about you portraying a diverse — racially diverse — university to students who are coming here versus what they actually experience, that is misleading.
We always get, particularly from (gathering thoughts) — I came into the States and I told you my experience about high school and I, I was like, “Oh, this is high school. I mean this is exactly what I experienced in high school,” so I was prepared for that — whereas a lot of our students are coming from, particularly our Latino students, might come from California, where they’re in predominantly Latino spaces. They come to Duke and they’re like, “This is not what I was sold on. This is not what I wanted. This is not what I’ve experienced.” It doesn’t have to be that one person come up to you and calling you a racist comments — that’s not what we’re talking about whenever we’re talking about the ins and outs of diversity and what that feels like. We’re talking about, “How do I feel on this campus? Do I feel like I can express myself and I can be my full self and not have to hide and not have to object when something feel racist because you’re going to be labeled as, ‘Oh no, you’re too sensitive.’”
Those are some of the things we have to think about and it’s really complex. I think that there isn’t always administrative support and so you have find that somewhere else. And, if you don’t, I am all for transferring. If there isn’t an avenue in order to make yourself feel comfortable then I think that you shouldn’t be at that space. I think that that conversation is had early enough. If I do talk to high school students, I tell them, “Well if you’re a minority, you might feel out of place. I’m going to be perfectly honest with you.”
I think there are things that I had to struggle with both at the undergrad and now at the graduate level, but at the same time, there are communities. I think that the people that I’ve found helped me a lot. So finding my mentor early on, knowing my best friend was there, knowing that there was a supportive community of people that were critical about the University — and I think that people really jumped to that conclusion that, “Oh, you can’t be critical of the school that you went to.” It’s just like no. You can — should be critical of the school that you go to be in the end it should help them figure out how to do something better. If that’s not what we’re there for, then we are still really much in that K-12 model of, “I’m a professor. I’m going to tell you what do,” or “I’m a teacher and this is how things are done.”
I think we can’t go about life that way. I mean you can, you can be perfectly happy and do that, but that’s not how, at least, how I want to live my life and that’s not how I want my students as a professor to go around in society. When we talk about diversity, we should talk so much more about more than numbers and it shouldn’t just be based on the numbers because then we’re talking about diversity in one particular way and it’s usually about race. I also don’t think that that’s what diversity is either. I think diversity has a lot of different levels or different ways we should talk about it and it shouldn’t just be based on numbers.
JS: I think that brings it full circle. Thank you so so so much. This was a very insightful, meaningful conversation about diversity. I’m so excited. Thank you, Felicia.
FA: You’re welcome.
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-0703 -- Arriaga, Felicia.
Description
An account of the resource
Janell Smith interviews graduate student Felicia Arriaga in an effort to understand issues of diversity within higher education institutions, specifically as it relates to Latino faculty members. With the hope of becoming a professor, Arriaga is a graduate student in the sociology department at Duke University, where she began her undergraduate career as a student in 2008 and received her bachelor’s degree in sociology and psychology in 2012. She is expected to graduate with her doctorate in 2018. She explains how her minority status has helped and hindered her collegiate career. Arriaga is a resident of Hendersonville, North Carolina, and is also heavily involved in and committed to her community. As the daughter of farmworkers, Arriaga works to better the lives of Latino students and laborers. She works for the Student Action with Farmworkers non-profit organization that seeks fair and just working conditions for farmworkers. Together Ms. Arriaga’s passion for education and her experiences as a Latina student provide a valuable perspective on diversity in higher education, especially as it relates to inclusion of Latinos.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
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09 Apr 2014
Format
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R0703_Audio.mp3
Publisher
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/20982">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/b5e07e21d5fd78787a9eec1ef8fa8c7b.mp3
119ee70ec382817a47284887794c3a69
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/7f41aa6ae42c22e41fb4cd269413a642.pdf
c0dbbe66c4064211f0a2eb026d4d4e03
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0706
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
05 April 2014
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Maldonado de Patiño, María de los Ángeles.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Food service employees
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1955
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Celaya -- Guanajuato -- Mexico
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Carrboro -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-100.813889 20.523056),1955,1;POINT(-79.0752895 35.9101438),2001,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Went, Cora.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Spanish
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
María de los Angeles Maldonado de Patiño provides a personal account of how she deals with having half of her family in the United States and half of her family in Mexico. She touched on issues such as mobility for people who are documented versus undocumented and the ways immigrants maintain contact with family members in Mexico. She also discusses religion as one way of coping with family separation, the effect that money sent back to family in Mexico has on their daily lives, the strange duality of some family members getting visas while others do not, and the health problems and negative psychological aspects of being an immigrant in the United States. Finally she explores differences in the cultures, particularly the lack of a sense of community in the United States.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with María de los Angeles Maldonado de Patiño by Cora Went, 05 April 2014, R-0706, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/20973
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Citizenship and immigration; Culture; Financial issues; Separation and reunification; Receiving communities
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Cora Went: Bueno. Yo soy Cora Went, soy la entrevistadora, y ella es María -- a ver si lo tengo--
María de los Angeles Maldonado de Patiño: de los Angeles
CW: María de los Angeles --
MMP: Maldonado --
CW: Maldonado --
MMP: De Patiño.
CW: De Pa--
MMP: Patiño.
CW. De Patiño. Maria de los Angeles Maldonado de Patiño. Bueno. Y aquí estamos en la casa de ella en Carrboro. Es el 5 de Abril en 2014. Y sí. Eso es todo. Bueno. Mi primera pregunta es de donde viene usted, y me puede contar un poco de cómo decidió usted venir a los Estados Unidos.
MMP: Pues yo vengo de Celaya, Guanajuato. Y de un rancho que se llama El Saos. Y por qué vine aquí? Porque mi esposo se pasó toda la vida aquí. Cría mis hijos sola yo en México, y cuando él ya tuvo su residencia, aplicó para venir, y ya para estar unidos. Pero solamente un hijo, porque el otro no le he podido arreglar. Y el motivo de - no sé por qué uno se pudo arreglar y el otro no. Así que pues por eso estoy aquí, para estar con mi familia.
CW: Está bien. ¿Y por cuánto tiempo estuvo aquí su marido con usted en México?
MMP: No, como por todo el tiempo. Nació el primer hijo, nació el segundo, y como por treinta años sola.
CW: Wow. ¿Y ahora los dos hijos están aquí?
MMP: No. Solo uno. Y en trámite el otro. Él que está aquí es Rafael Patiño. Me falta Victor Patiño Maldonado.
CW: ¿Y cuántos años tenían sus hijos cuando su marido le fue? Se fue?
MMP: El primero tenía cinco años. Y todo ese tiempo nació Rafael, hasta cuando el otro niño tenía 16.
CW: ¿Y por qué vino su marido a los Estados Unidos?
MMP: Pues a ver si podíamos salir más adelante. [Ríe.]
CW: ¿Y me puede contar en qué trabaja usted, y como es su vida en Carolina del Norte?
MMP: Pues ahorita trabajo en UNC. En el Lenoir. Allá tengo trabajando ocho años. Pues, vivo bien. Un poco triste por mis hijos. Bueno, por el hijo de allá. Y también por mi esposo, ya está enfermo. Ya no es igual.
CW: ¿Y su esposo vive aquí también?
MMP: Sí.
CW: ¿Hace cuántos años viste a su hijo que está en México?
MMP: No, pues el año pasado. En mayo.
CW: ¿Porque usted fue a México?
MMP: Sí. No, yo fui. Yo voy cuando hay vacaciones. Voy allí y lo veo.
CW: Está bien. ¿Cómo está separado su familia? ¿Quiénes están aquí y quiénes están en México?
MMP: Pues aquí está Rafael, y está mi esposo. Y Victor es ese que está allá y mis nietos. [Empieza a llorar.] La hija de Rafa también allá. También él necesita arreglarle a su esposa para poder tener a su familia junta.
CW: Bueno. Si no quiere hablar más de su hijo está bien, está bien, me dice.
MMP: Pues sí. De todos modos me hace bien.
CW: Sí. ¿Me puede contar un poco de cuando usted estaba preparando a salir de México, y como era hacer la decisión ir para aquí con Rafael?
MMP: Pues mucho sufrimiento porque en especial Rafa tenía once años [sonidos de llorar], mira, y yo me reclamaba porque él, lo traje aquí, y eso me duele. Porque tal vez se no me hubiera ido -- es muy bonito aquí todo, pero como dice, lo agarré como si fuera una hierba. O como si fuera de mi propiedad. Y yo no sé él que sintió. Tal vez sintió su escuela, sus amigos, la familia, las reuniones. Porque aquí también queremos compartir la familia así pero a medias porque está la mitad allá la mitad aquí. Pero, pues sí, se vive un poquito mejor aquí. Pero así trabajas, todo lo que trabajas aquí se vuelve a quedar. Es una ilusión decir voy a Estados Unidos para hacer algo acá en México. [Rafael, el hijo de María, prende la música en otro cuarto, y se puede oír.] Pues no, porque paga renta, biles. Sí vives mejor, pero pagas más. Así que tu misma estás pagando lo bien que estás viviendo. No hay la posibilidad. Pero cuando yo estaba que ya me venía, pues yo sí lloré. Mira, dejé a mis padres, y mi otro hijo. Entonces, sí, ahorita es como el taxas cuando -- eso es lo que me gusta de aquí, cada año cuando me dan mis taxas yo puedo ayudar al muchacho, o cuando no mucho gasto, le puedo mandar. Como ayer le mandé cien dólares. [Se levanta para buscar una familia de su hijo, Victor, y su familia.] Él ya tiene -- su familia ahora es bien difícil, porque todos van a la escuela, y lo que gana es poco. Entonces todo eso nos mortifica a los abuelos. Y bueno, estamos bien.
CW: ¿Y él es Victor? [Mirando la foto.]
MMP: Sí, él es Victor.
CW: ¿Y sus nietos?
MMP: Sí, y mis nietos. Y mi nuera. Pues sí. Muy bonitos todos unidos. Pero igual cuando llegué aquí, pues no había un apartamento. Aquí no te rentan un apartamento sin un talón de cheque. Entonces llegamos a (9:42) con una familia mientras de que yo entré a trabajar en un cleaners. Allí me pagaban muy bien, planchando. Y pues de allá te digo de cuando las torres, pues yo me espanté mucho. ¿De por qué lloran, o qué pasa? Eso fue mi primer experiencia triste aquí. De saber que tiran las torres de Nueva York, sin conocerlas yo. [Ríe.] Y me dio mucha tristeza. Y de allí pues ahorita lo que pasa con las personas, que no tienen papeles. Pero como quiera, pues con papeles o sin papeles es el mismo. Porque sin tu trabajo no cambian los leyes.
CW: Por que - ¿por que dice usted que con papeles o sin papeles es el mismo?
MMP: Pues sí porque lo que pasa es si te emplean sin papeles, pagas lo mismo. De renta, de biles. Y también con papeles. Vas a la seguridad pero el trabajo es el mismo. No tienes nada. Lo único que tienes es el permiso de la pasada. Pero no beneficia en otras cosas. Si -- por decir mira, si vas al hospital, te cobran tanto. Si vas a la ayuda financiera, y eres elegible, te ayudan. Y si no sabes como yo los leyes de aquí, yo he sufrido bastante para comprender cuales son los leyes. Como antes de venir no estudiamos allá para ver cuales son las leyes, y aquí llegas ciega. Entonces pasas los días, los años - vas pensando que son las lágrimas que uno llora. Llegas -- los de tu país ya los sabes. Pero vas a otro país y no sabes tantas cosas. Pero yo les agradezco mucho a los Americanos, han sido lindos. En especial la juventud, porque me han enseñado tantas cosas. Como los estudiantes. Sus sonrisas, su forma de querer que una aprenda el inglés, yo tengo muchas cosas de ustedes que agradecer. Por su amabilidad, por el tiempo que vienen, muchas cosas bellas.
CW: Y - usted dijo antes que cuando, cuando tienes, o cuando usted tiene dinero, lo mande a México para ayudar a Victor y a sus nietos. ¿Como piensa usted que les ha afectado ese dinero a ellos?
MMP: ¿Les ha afectado? No, les ha beneficiado. Sí porque veces no tienen tenis, veces sus libros, sus mochilas, para seguir estudiando, para esa es para -- y también que -- por si decir que tiene que pagar su renta o cuando se le descompuso su lavadora, ya no sirvió, sacó una nueva a crédito. Y cuando yo puedo le ayudo y él da abono. Pero en especial es para ropa de mis nietos. Útiles, escolares. Como ahorita el niño que está en la banda es aquel. [Me muestra una foto de su nieto que está en la pared.] Va a cumplir catorce años. Y él está ya en la secundaria. Así que es primaria, secundaria, y está después preparatoria.
CW: Y, a ver, entonces, cuántos años tenía Victor cuando se fue usted de México?
MMP: Victor, el hijo mío?
CW: Sí.
MMP: Él ya estaba con su familia.
CW: Oh, ya estaba con su familia. Está bien. Y usted - ¿como es usted involucrada con la crianza de sus nietos allí? Hay unas decisiones que usted hace desde aquí? ¿O hacen todas las decisiones de la educación y todo eso allá en México?
MMP: No pues yo solamente ayudo. Yo lo que quiero - no me quiero meter en sus vidas. De mi - de sus hijos. Por qué ellos tienen que educarlos. Yo no más en lo económico, y los hijos pórtense bien, obedezcan a sus padres. Y pues ya no más me gritan, “te queremos mucho abuelita!” Y “cuando vienes,” siempre, “cuando vienes?” Pero que yo ordene, “haz esto con tu hijo!” No. No no no. Es su problema, es su vida, yo solamente soy su abuela, soy madre de mi hijo, y mi nueras son mis nueras. Y su lugar es su lugar.
CW: Eso sería diferente si usted estuviera en México? O sería igual?
MMP: Es igual.
CW: Es igual.
MMP: Es igual. Y también si ellos llegan a venir alguna vez aquí, y también si quieren que vivamos juntos, sería igual. Porque yo soy yo, ellos son ellos, y yo no me meto. Si puedo, ayudo. Pero si no, no.
CW: Usted es buena abuela.
MMP: Yo los quiero. Amo tanto a mis hijos, y a mi nieto, que soy capaz de quedarme sin comer para que ellos no les falten nada. Y quisiera convertirme en la solución cuando tienen problema. Y es de aquí adentro. [Pone el mano a la corazón.] No es no más para quedar bien. Porque yo no sé de donde tengo tanto amor para mi familia. En especial para mis padres, para mis hermanos, no sé. Así soy yo. Sí.
CW: ¿Y le parece a usted que es diferente en otras familias?
MMP: Pues no, pero yo he visto casi la mayoría, por lo menos, veces dicen que los hijos de una nuera no se quieren. Yo así yo no sé como contestar porque como no tengo una hija. Pero yo pienso que es igual. Como tengo dos hijos, y dos nueras, sí sentí dolor cuando los dos las han buscado. Pero era aquí adentro. Pero no porque se las busquen. Sino si -- está muy bien que busquen su pareja, porque si un día yo me muero, ellos que van a hacer sin pareja. Y siempre está mejor la pareja. Porque nos estamos peleando, pero tiene que ser así. Es mejor. Y también yo les he inculcado a mis hijos que no tengan otros mujeres, que no vayan a tener hijos en otros lados, porque no me gustaría saber que un nieto mío anda afuera de la familia. Y ellos no tienen porque buscar otra mujer, porque la que buscaron es la que dios les mandó, y la que buscaron es la que Dios les mandó, y la tienen que cuidar. Yo también no me buscaba otro marido. Y mi esposo motivos me ha dado, pero yo pienso así: ¿para qué busco otro? Si este es así, otro va a ser peor. Mejor me quedo así. Y así me quedé. Ya cuarenta años con mi esposo.
CW: Wow. Que lindo.
MMP: Mmhmm. Sí. Y sí nos peleamos, pero igual, un ratito, y ya ratito igual bien. Y otro pleitito y así. Pero cosa así simple. Pero ahorita yo creando llorona, por, ves que estuve enferma, y con los medicamentos me agarra depresión. [Se escucha la música de Rafael.]
CW: ¿Y como se comunica usted con la familia en México?
MMP: Por teléfono.
CW: ¿Y con qué frecuencia?
MMP: Yo cuando tenga tiempo, una media hora con cada quien. Cuando es con mis nietos, la tarjeta me da dos horas. Y hablo con mi hijo, hablo con mi nuera, con mis nietos. Y pero ahorita tengo quince días porque asaltaron a mi hijo allá, y le robaron el teléfono de la empresa, y creo que no tiene ahorita teléfono.
CW: Pero se comunican con bastante frecuencia?
MMP: Sí, y si no él me marca. Y ya “¿como están?” Aunque no tardemos mucho “como están, como está papá.” Y ya si mi esposo se puede hacer ciudadano, pues vamos a pedir el paquete. Para Victor y para mis niños. Estas son cuatas, mira. [Mostrando el foto de Victor y los nietos otra vez.] Más que esta nació más chiquita que la otra. Pero él es el primero, y estas son cuatas.
CW: Lindo. ¿Y cuántos años tienen todos ahora?
MMP: Él tiene trece, y las niñas tienen diez.
CW: ¿Con qué frecuencia visita usted a México?
MMP: Cada que se van ustedes de vacaciones, yo voy aunque sea por un mes o por una semana. Pero ahora pienso ir en Junio para -- mis nietos van a ser su primera comunión. Y voy a verlos vestidos de blanco, y recibir a nuestro Dios. Bueno en mi religión mía (22:23) es una maravilla.
CW: Está bien. Y para -- tiene usted -- me parece que hay mucha gente que no puede visitar a su familia --
MMP: Los que no tienen papeles. Porque si van, ¿como regresan?
CW: Sí. ¿Tiene usted amigos que están en esa situación?
MMP: Sí. Tengo bastante, y familia. Tengo familias en Chicago que ya tienen casi los dieciséis o veinte años tal vez sin ver a las familias. Pero también ahorita con el arreglo de visas, ya vino la mama de uno de ellos. Y ahorita mi hermana tiene todo su familia en Chicago, y no ha podido arreglar su visa. Y yo no sé los motivos del porque a unas personas se las dan con tanta facilidad y otras no.
CW: Ya, no sé. Y para ellos - le parece usted que es más difícil porque no se ven?
MMP: Pues, se hablan en seguido pero igual yo pienso que también lloran. Porque luego están (23:57), prometiendo a la Virgen de Guadalupe o a Dios “ayudame padre mío por mi familia” algo así. Y yo pienso que todo el mundo sufrimos por lo mismo. Y yo admiro de verdad en corazón, admiro todas esas personas. Cuantas valientes son, para soportar. Mira, hay muchachos que se les han muerto sus padres y madres, y siguen aquí. Pobrecitos. Y me da mucho dolor cuando sé que no fueron, pero igual, ahí me tocó no ir a ver a mi papá cuando murió, porque yo me vine el 28 de noviembre, mi padre murió el 11 de diciembre, y no tenía dinero. No pude ir. Porque también cuesta mucho. Si no trabajas, no tienes dinero. Así que hay que trabajar, y hacer tu ahorro, aparte de trabajar tu ahorro parte de todos los gastos, para decir este dólar es para mi alcancía por si quiero ver a mi familia. Y solamente así.
CW: Y - a ver - ¿las otras personas en su familia también visitan a México? ¿Con la misma frecuencia?
MMP: ¿Otras personas?
CW: ¿Como Raúl, y Rafael también? ¿Vienen con usted cuando visitas a México? [Conocí a Raúl más temprano en la casa de María.]
MMP: No, Raúl no puede ir. Pero no tiene ya más que un hermano allá. Pero se comunica. Raúl no es mi familiar, pero como de años nos conocemos él me dice tía. Pero bastantes personas vienen y me dicen tía aunque no sea. [Ríe.]
CW: [Ríe.] Sí, está bien. Entiendo.
MMP: Siempre me dicen tía. Y yo no me enojo, porque gracias que [ríe], que les caigo bien. Y de la familia de Rafa, pues ahorita más es la niña que está allí [muestra una foto de un bebé en la pared], y su esposa, pero tampoco ha metido aplicación para -- él tiene miedo que lo llamen a la guerra, dice. Aquí como, como es que los mandan a la guerra?
CW: Ah - hay, hay una cosa que se llama el “draft,” y cuando el presidente dice que hay el “draft,” todos los que son mayores que 18 años pueden estar llamado para la guerra. Me da miedo.
MMP: Sí.
CW: Como - ¿como piensa usted que se siente su familia al tenerle a usted en los Estado Unidos?
MMP: Pues mis padres me extrañaron mucho. Mi hijo pues él cuando hablamos me dice, dice “mamá, por qué somos tan poquitos y estamos tan separados?” Y le digo, “ya, nos vamos a juntar un día.” Y él me dice a cada rato, “Ya vente. Ya vénganse.” Dice, “Qué están haciendo allí.” Le digo, “Yo creo que ya nadie me da trabajo allá, hijo. Espera un poquito lo que me pensiono.” “Ya, no pides nada,” dice, “Yo te mantengo.” [Ríe.] Pero eso es en el momento de desesperación, pienso. Entonces yo sí, quisiera que se le arreglara su papel a mi hijo, porque él también pues también a su familia, porque es tan difícil separarse de los hijos, del esposo. [Empieza a llorar.]
CW: Sí, sí. [Pausa.] Usted piensa que si Victor viene, que él va a venir con la familia entera?
MMP: Esperemos. Pero también ahorita si él se viene, esa familia pues lo extrañará. Está en plena juventud. Así que en cuando mi esposo hace ciudadano, ya hablamos que vamos a trabajar, y bueno, si me pensiono y si reunimos dinero, es para arreglarles a todos, y Rafael a su esposo. Y si podemos arreglar. Si no se arregla, nos iremos. Pero yo no me puedo ir, porque mi esposo aquí tiene todos los beneficios médicos. Y allá, siempre que vamos, es mucho gastadero. Es tres mil pesos por la semana para la diálisis. Aparte medicamentos. Yo espero, espero a ver que si arregla a la ciudadanía mi esposo. El doctor le va ayudando. Traemos a Victor, Rafa se trae la familia, y juntitos aquí.
CW: Entones usted prefiere que sean juntos aquí que en México?
MMP: Pues sí porque es prima aquí para que mis nietos estudien, viven mejor aunque estemos encerrados, porque ya trabajando aquí esta casa se queda sola. Pero en la tarde ya llegamos y nos juntamos, ya nos vemos, y en México, pues yo pienso que si vienen y mis nueros quieren trabajar, y yo ya estoy retirada, puedo cuidar a mis niños. Entonces sí. Los mando a la escuela, les preparo su comida mientras. Y así. Estarán mejor.
[El teléfono suena. Contesta y habla. Cuelga.]
MMP: Es una mujer que salió que trabajar, y quiere si -- tengo gorditas dice. Digo que sí. Pero se va a bañar, dice que en media hora.
CW: Ah, está bien.
MMP: Sí, así es.
CW: Y usted dijo antes que no se meta mucho con la crianza de los hijos y los nietos. ¿Tiene amigos que sí se metan - se meten más?
MMP: Con la familia?
CW: Sí.
MMP: Aquí no, pero allá en México si hay abuelas. Y aquí estaba platicando con dos muchachos yo, y me dijo, “y por qué usted es así, como habla de su familia?” y dije “no sé,” y dijo “no, mis dos abuelas eran bien malas,” y no quiere que vayan diciendo eso de mí. Yo no porque yo quiero mucho a mis hijos. Y el bienestar de mis hijos es el bienestar mío. Y si veo a un hijo sufriendo, yo también sufro. Yo si le falta algo, y que yo pudiera por avariciosa aquí lo tengo y no le doy, no no no. Aquí estoy, “ten hijo,” a los dos. Si cuando él está en México, y tengo dos cientos dólares, son cien para él y cien para el otro. Yo no quiero - y no quiero nada para mí. Porque cuando uno está joven es cuando más necesita. Y también viejito. Pero yo como que tengo una fe adentro de mi, no voy a necesitar nada de viejita porque yo le pido a dios que cuando yo no pueda hacer nada [da una palmada] me muera. [Ríe.] Yo no se si sí o si no, pero pienso que sí.
CW: [Ríe.] Mi abuela dice lo mismo.
MMP: Sí? Y así hago, y yo vivo muy tranquila. Cuando me desespero es porque no alcanzo a arreglar todo lo que yo quisiera. Pero esperemos en Dios que nos ayude. Y vamos a vivir muy bien.
CW: A ver que más. Cuál -- no sé -- ¿para usted que son las cosas más difíciles de tener tanta migración entre México y los Estados Unidos?
MMP: ¿Qué es más difícil?
CW: Mmhmm.
MMP: [Pausa.] Bueno, pues yo tenía entendido que -- que es más difícil -- ¿como para que dejar en el paso libre?
CW: ¿O a ver, cuales son los desafíos de vivir en los Estados Unidos?
MMP: [A su hijo, que ahora está sentado en el sofá.] ¿Qué son desafíos, Rafa?
Rafael Patiño: Como que es difícil.
MMP: ¿De vivir aquí?
CW: Mmhmm.
MMP: Pues no, si tu eres trabajadora, y honesta, no hay nada que. Porque a mí nunca se me ha hecho difícil. Ni vivir aquí, ni vivir allá, porque es igual. No más tienes que tener tu trabajo, ser responsable, no meterte en malos caminos, vivir como debe de vivir, y está todo bien. Pero si tú buscas, tú encuentras. Entonces pienso que aquí lo difícil para mi fue cuando llegamos, que no hay un bil, un talón de cheque que demostrar que estás trabajando, pero ya teniendo tu talón de cheque, y tu apartamento donde vivir, pues ya no es nada difícil. No salgas en la noche a hacer cosas malas, y todo está bien. No ofendas a nadie, para que nadie te ofenda, así de sencillo. Y eso te lo enseñan tus padres desde que vas creciendo. Si tu quieres lo tomas, y si tú quieres mal camino tú lo dejas, pero si lo catas desde que te enseñan entonces nunca hay mal camino. Que todos los caminos son buenos si tu lo llevas por el bueno.
CW: Sí. De acuerdo. Sobre -- ¿qué hace usted y qué hace -- qué hace la otra gente que conoce usted para aguantar la separación de la familia?
MMP: Hacer oración a Diós. Y mucho valor adentro del corazón porque, pues de llorar sí lloramos, de decir - bueno yo me paso bendiciendo a mis hijos de día y de noche. Porque esa fe grande me ayuda a calmar mi desesperación de estar unidos. Y ellos que también son lindos conmigos, porque no me dan - como te digo - que problemas. Ellos si, si van a tomar una copa en la casa me hablan. “Mamá, compramos una botella, pero no más lo vamos a tomar.” Y no son locos que se salgan, porque ellos ya saben que tienen que tomar quietos si toman. Pero casi no.
CW: Huh. Está muy bien eso. Sí. ¿Y sus amigos y amigas hacen igual, ya oración a dios para aguantar la separación?
MMP: Yo pienso que sí. Sí porque casi nos comunicamos. Y también yendo a la iglesia. Yo no voy seguida pero ahorita por un tiempo pero este niño cantaba en la iglesia [mociona a Rafael], entonces nos vamos a misa cada ocho días, y es bien bonito porque escuchamos la palabra, le doy gracias a Dios que me deja estar pasando el tiempo, todos los días en la mañana igual, “Gracias padre por abrirme mis ojitos.” Y ahí sí. Pero Rafael, yo pienso que él va a trabajar allí, ¿verdad hijo? Allí en la iglesia.
CW: Ah. Está bien.
MMP: Mmhmm. Él canta muy bonito, con guitarra.
CW: Ah wow. Que bueno. Sí. Y - a ver que más. [Pausa.] Como - no sé. Para mí lo más triste de la migración es como están separados --
MMP: Separando los niños de sus padres.
CW: Sí.
MMP: Sí. Ese también es bien doloroso porque imaginate cuantos niños, cuantos niños están sin su padre, sin su madre, y cuantos han agarrado como migración se queda con los niños, y la mamá no puede recoger a su hijo por falta de esa documentación. Y tiene que darle la patria (40:43) a otra persona que tenga papeles. Si no, no ven a su hija más.
CW: Y que piensa usted que es el efecto de tener la separación entre las familias, en México? Que afecto ha tenido en los hijos?
MMP: [Pausa.] Pues bueno, se enferman. Hasta nosotros los mayores, nos enfermamos con las separaciones. Porque te afecta - en especial tu fe, tu amor que está - que existe con tus - que está saliendo adelante. Ni te digo esto por un sobrino que, mi cuñado se vino, y el niño tenía tres años, y él se tuvo que regresar porque el niño se le cayó todo el pelo.
CW: Wow. Entonces se enferman muy físicamente.
MMP: Sí. Y de allí, pues ya son niños, como crecen con una tristeza. O inseguros. Y un compadre, padrino del hijo, fue él que tuvo que hablarle, fue él que dijo, “que te importa más,” dijo, “el dinero o tu familia?” Pues mi familia. “Tu familia ya te quiere aquí,” y pues regresó. Todo el pelo le salió al niño. Sí, separarlos a los hijos de los padres -- yo no comprendo porque es esto de los, como se dice de la, de las deportaciones? Para qué quieren esos niños sufriendo? Yo pienso que deberían dejar libre, o poner ya de una vez, echarles a todos, y quedarse así. Si nos echan a todos ya se quedan, y ya no venimos.
CW: Entonces la - usted está diciendo que la deportación también separa a las familias que ya están aquí?
MMP: Pues sí. Fijáte cuántos niños, cuantos papás andan por allá y sus hijos los han encargado aquí. Con otras familias. Ah, pues conozco algunos, y yo no sé que va a hacer de esas criaturas. Crecen y después adonde van. Sin hogar. Y por lo también hablan por teléfono, porque aquí nos ayudamos. Si yo tengo y él no tiene, pues lo ayudo. Y por eso es de que aguantamos aquí. Porque si yo veo a alguien que no tiene de comer yo le ofrezco. Y si no tiene donde pasar una noche pues te puedes quedar aquí. Y pues ya consiguen en otro lado. Así cuando yo llegué como te digo, llegué con mi Rafa, chiquito de once años, y llegué a rimarme a la casa de un amigo de un esposo. Y después cuando Rafa empezó a decirme, “por qué me trajiste, y que hacemos aquí,” y pues el sufrió, también unos morenos me aquí en University, yo me tenía que ir a trabjar y ese día llegué. Dije, y mi niño no está, y salí, y siempre está Alberto en frente, porque lo tenían sumido abajo. Y cuando grité “RAFA!” lo soltaron, y salió mi niño. Pues estaba chiquito, once años. Y todo eso él también sufrió. También otro lo acosaron en la escuela. Y por todo eso, todo eso es sufrimiento para todos los padres. Y tú no creas que todo los que vivimos, somos acosados. Porque aquí ya uno llegue ciego. Y después nuestros hijos, en mayor razón, pues los trae uno aquí. Y oy, no. Hay los que nacen aquí, y sus padres están siempre. Pero también hay ignorancia en los hispanos porque venimos de otros - otros - como te diré - otras formas de vivir. En los ranchos donde vivimos allá - aquí un rancho es tu tierra solo tuya. Y allí un rancho es un rancho, es una comunidad de personas que vivimos cerquitas, y si sabemos que esté enfermo, y no tiene la ayudamos. Y si no tiene de comer le damos. Y ellos nos dan si necesitamos. Y aquí quien te va a dar. Como si aquí si salgo a la calle, y grito “tengo hambre, quién me da un taco?” nadie me va a dar.
CW: Entonces le parece que hay menos comunidad aquí que allá?
MMP: Sí. Y aquí todavía te van a notar si eres elegible. Te van a investigar. Porque a mi esposo le dan estampillas. Pero tiene que llevar los estados de cuenta del banco, que la cuenta yo la abrí para no estar pagando cinco dólares cada que iba a cambiar mi cheque. Y me sirvió bastante porque a él ya le llega su depósito de seguro a él, mi cheque cada semana, y no es harto. Pues imagínate si son 300 que me depositan, y cuanto pagamos de luz, de agua. Antes no cobraban el agua. Y ahora ya cobran el agua. [Se escuche a Rafael, que está sentado en el otro sofá.]
CW: Y con el tema de la comunidad allá y aquí, le parece a usted que la gente hispana tiene más comunidad aquí que la gente Americana?
MMP: Pero sí los Americanos son bien lindos también. No más que les pasa igual. Porque ustedes son - no tengo nada que hablar de los Americanos. Son divinos. No más que también como van -- si tu tuvieras por decir un lugar donde recoger de los que se quedan en la calle. Pero también hay unos que son flojos. No trabajan. También allá en México. También hay marijuanos. También hay vivientes. Igual que aquí. Pero también las comunidades -- es lo que te nombras un rancho. Y aquí los ranchos es un rancho de un Americano pero son sus tierras, sus caballos, sus vacas [ríen las dos], y allá no. Allá es un rancho, pero no de vacas, de pura gente. [Ríen otra vez.] Y le llaman la comunidad.
CW: Entonces - no sé como decir esa pregunta pero - para mí - yo vivo muy lejos de mi familia, como usted también. Pero para mí no tenemos esa misma cultura de los ranchos. Entonces le parece que es más difícil para ustedes si tienen esa comunidad en México de los ranchos?
MMP: Pues si vives allí está bien. Pero igual, yo mis padres vivían en esa comunidad, pero yo luego uno de mis hermanas trabajaba en una empresa más grande, y le dieron un apartamento. Él no lo quería, y le dije, “pasámelo a mí,’ y le dije, “yo pago los pagos, y cuando ya se terminen los pagos, tu firmes a la escritura para mi nombre.” Y así fue como yo me cambié vivir a Celaya. Y, y igual, pues estamos - todavía se acaba de pagar. Estamos como quien dice pagando renta. Hasta cuando se alive. Ya que terminemos, entonces sí ya. Pero 20 años. Aquí si sacas una casa, cuantos años, a treinta. Porque yo traté de sacar una. Pero tenía que quedar mil dólares mensuales. No tengo esa cantidad. Pues no saqué nada. Ahorita también yo quisiera poder tener, como dicen que el banco te presta, pero también tengo miedo de que yo me endeude al banco y que no puede pagar. Pero yo sí quisiera una casa. Pero aquí en Carrboro. Porque mi gusta. Es tranquilo, tiene todos los servicios cerquitas. Puedo ir a pie a la farmacia, a la carnicería, a la policía. O simplemente a sentarme un rato en el jardín de la Weaver. Ahí me gusta ir.
CW: Ah, sí. A mi también.
MMP: Ves que hay nieve, hay café, todas las semillas que venden adentro, todas me gustan. Es muy bonito. Y no tengo que usar auto. Yo puedo ir caminando. Me voy al molecito, que está de donde está el restauran - como se llama - Diners? [Preguntándole a Rafael.] Como se llama donde trabajaba?
RP: Elmos.
CW: Ah, Elmos, sí.
MMP: Ahí hay un molecito. Ahí yo me voy a veces, cuando hace mucho calor, y que estoy de vacaciones. De otra forma no pues yo estoy trabajando a diario. No más si no voy a México, me quedo de vacaciones aquí, y me pongo a caminar. Si no en las tardes también. Me gusta caminar mucho.
CW: Bueno, no tengo más preguntas. Pero tiene usted algo más para añadir a la historia, o algo que --
MMP: No, ya es bastante.
CW: Sí?
MMP: Sí.
CW: Bueno.
MMP: Yo te dije mucho. Está bién así.
CW: Bueno. Entonces --
MMP: Ya te puse de chapadita más de un cache.
CW: Como?
MMP: Eres bien rojita.
CW: Ah, sí? [Ríe.] Estaba en el sol ayer. Bueno entonces apago.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Empleados del servicio de alimentos
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Español
Es: Resumen
María de los Angeles Maldonado de Patiño provee un relato personal de lo que significa tener a la mitad de su familia en los Estados Unidos y la otra mitad en México. Ella comenta sobre las diferencias en términos de movilidad para migrantes con documentos y sin ellos y las formas en la que los migrantes mantienen contacto con los integrantes de sus familias en México. Ella también discute como la religión es un recurso que ayuda a lidiar con la separación familiar, el efecto que el dinero que se envía a su familia en México tiene en sus vidas diarias; la extraña dualidad de que algunos miembros de su familia reciben visas mientras otros no y sobre los problemas de salud y los aspectos psicológicos negativos de ser un inmigrante en los Estados Unidos. Finalmente, ella explora las diferencias entre las culturas, particularmente la falta de un sentido de comunidad en los Estados Unidos.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con María de los Angeles Maldonado de Patiño por Cora Went, 05 Abril 2014, R-0706, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Ciudadanía e inmigración; Cultura; Asuntos financieros; Comunidades receptoras; Separación y reunificación
Es: Transcripción
Cora Went: Bueno. Yo soy Cora Went, soy la entrevistadora, y ella es María -- a ver si lo tengo--
María de los Angeles Maldonado de Patiño: de los Angeles
CW: María de los Angeles --
MMP: Maldonado --
CW: Maldonado --
MMP: De Patiño.
CW: De Pa--
MMP: Patiño.
CW. De Patiño. Maria de los Angeles Maldonado de Patiño. Bueno. Y aquí estamos en la casa de ella en Carrboro. Es el 5 de Abril en 2014. Y sí. Eso es todo. Bueno. Mi primera pregunta es de donde viene usted, y me puede contar un poco de cómo decidió usted venir a los Estados Unidos.
MMP: Pues yo vengo de Celaya, Guanajuato. Y de un rancho que se llama El Saos. Y por qué vine aquí? Porque mi esposo se pasó toda la vida aquí. Cría mis hijos sola yo en México, y cuando él ya tuvo su residencia, aplicó para venir, y ya para estar unidos. Pero solamente un hijo, porque el otro no le he podido arreglar. Y el motivo de - no sé por qué uno se pudo arreglar y el otro no. Así que pues por eso estoy aquí, para estar con mi familia.
CW: Está bien. ¿Y por cuánto tiempo estuvo aquí su marido con usted en México?
MMP: No, como por todo el tiempo. Nació el primer hijo, nació el segundo, y como por treinta años sola.
CW: Wow. ¿Y ahora los dos hijos están aquí?
MMP: No. Solo uno. Y en trámite el otro. Él que está aquí es Rafael Patiño. Me falta Victor Patiño Maldonado.
CW: ¿Y cuántos años tenían sus hijos cuando su marido le fue? Se fue?
MMP: El primero tenía cinco años. Y todo ese tiempo nació Rafael, hasta cuando el otro niño tenía 16.
CW: ¿Y por qué vino su marido a los Estados Unidos?
MMP: Pues a ver si podíamos salir más adelante. [Ríe.]
CW: ¿Y me puede contar en qué trabaja usted, y como es su vida en Carolina del Norte?
MMP: Pues ahorita trabajo en UNC. En el Lenoir. Allá tengo trabajando ocho años. Pues, vivo bien. Un poco triste por mis hijos. Bueno, por el hijo de allá. Y también por mi esposo, ya está enfermo. Ya no es igual.
CW: ¿Y su esposo vive aquí también?
MMP: Sí.
CW: ¿Hace cuántos años viste a su hijo que está en México?
MMP: No, pues el año pasado. En mayo.
CW: ¿Porque usted fue a México?
MMP: Sí. No, yo fui. Yo voy cuando hay vacaciones. Voy allí y lo veo.
CW: Está bien. ¿Cómo está separado su familia? ¿Quiénes están aquí y quiénes están en México?
MMP: Pues aquí está Rafael, y está mi esposo. Y Victor es ese que está allá y mis nietos. [Empieza a llorar.] La hija de Rafa también allá. También él necesita arreglarle a su esposa para poder tener a su familia junta.
CW: Bueno. Si no quiere hablar más de su hijo está bien, está bien, me dice.
MMP: Pues sí. De todos modos me hace bien.
CW: Sí. ¿Me puede contar un poco de cuando usted estaba preparando a salir de México, y como era hacer la decisión ir para aquí con Rafael?
MMP: Pues mucho sufrimiento porque en especial Rafa tenía once años [sonidos de llorar], mira, y yo me reclamaba porque él, lo traje aquí, y eso me duele. Porque tal vez se no me hubiera ido -- es muy bonito aquí todo, pero como dice, lo agarré como si fuera una hierba. O como si fuera de mi propiedad. Y yo no sé él que sintió. Tal vez sintió su escuela, sus amigos, la familia, las reuniones. Porque aquí también queremos compartir la familia así pero a medias porque está la mitad allá la mitad aquí. Pero, pues sí, se vive un poquito mejor aquí. Pero así trabajas, todo lo que trabajas aquí se vuelve a quedar. Es una ilusión decir voy a Estados Unidos para hacer algo acá en México. [Rafael, el hijo de María, prende la música en otro cuarto, y se puede oír.] Pues no, porque paga renta, biles. Sí vives mejor, pero pagas más. Así que tu misma estás pagando lo bien que estás viviendo. No hay la posibilidad. Pero cuando yo estaba que ya me venía, pues yo sí lloré. Mira, dejé a mis padres, y mi otro hijo. Entonces, sí, ahorita es como el taxas cuando -- eso es lo que me gusta de aquí, cada año cuando me dan mis taxas yo puedo ayudar al muchacho, o cuando no mucho gasto, le puedo mandar. Como ayer le mandé cien dólares. [Se levanta para buscar una familia de su hijo, Victor, y su familia.] Él ya tiene -- su familia ahora es bien difícil, porque todos van a la escuela, y lo que gana es poco. Entonces todo eso nos mortifica a los abuelos. Y bueno, estamos bien.
CW: ¿Y él es Victor? [Mirando la foto.]
MMP: Sí, él es Victor.
CW: ¿Y sus nietos?
MMP: Sí, y mis nietos. Y mi nuera. Pues sí. Muy bonitos todos unidos. Pero igual cuando llegué aquí, pues no había un apartamento. Aquí no te rentan un apartamento sin un talón de cheque. Entonces llegamos a (9:42) con una familia mientras de que yo entré a trabajar en un cleaners. Allí me pagaban muy bien, planchando. Y pues de allá te digo de cuando las torres, pues yo me espanté mucho. ¿De por qué lloran, o qué pasa? Eso fue mi primer experiencia triste aquí. De saber que tiran las torres de Nueva York, sin conocerlas yo. [Ríe.] Y me dio mucha tristeza. Y de allí pues ahorita lo que pasa con las personas, que no tienen papeles. Pero como quiera, pues con papeles o sin papeles es el mismo. Porque sin tu trabajo no cambian los leyes.
CW: Por que - ¿por que dice usted que con papeles o sin papeles es el mismo?
MMP: Pues sí porque lo que pasa es si te emplean sin papeles, pagas lo mismo. De renta, de biles. Y también con papeles. Vas a la seguridad pero el trabajo es el mismo. No tienes nada. Lo único que tienes es el permiso de la pasada. Pero no beneficia en otras cosas. Si -- por decir mira, si vas al hospital, te cobran tanto. Si vas a la ayuda financiera, y eres elegible, te ayudan. Y si no sabes como yo los leyes de aquí, yo he sufrido bastante para comprender cuales son los leyes. Como antes de venir no estudiamos allá para ver cuales son las leyes, y aquí llegas ciega. Entonces pasas los días, los años - vas pensando que son las lágrimas que uno llora. Llegas -- los de tu país ya los sabes. Pero vas a otro país y no sabes tantas cosas. Pero yo les agradezco mucho a los Americanos, han sido lindos. En especial la juventud, porque me han enseñado tantas cosas. Como los estudiantes. Sus sonrisas, su forma de querer que una aprenda el inglés, yo tengo muchas cosas de ustedes que agradecer. Por su amabilidad, por el tiempo que vienen, muchas cosas bellas.
CW: Y - usted dijo antes que cuando, cuando tienes, o cuando usted tiene dinero, lo mande a México para ayudar a Victor y a sus nietos. ¿Como piensa usted que les ha afectado ese dinero a ellos?
MMP: ¿Les ha afectado? No, les ha beneficiado. Sí porque veces no tienen tenis, veces sus libros, sus mochilas, para seguir estudiando, para esa es para -- y también que -- por si decir que tiene que pagar su renta o cuando se le descompuso su lavadora, ya no sirvió, sacó una nueva a crédito. Y cuando yo puedo le ayudo y él da abono. Pero en especial es para ropa de mis nietos. Útiles, escolares. Como ahorita el niño que está en la banda es aquel. [Me muestra una foto de su nieto que está en la pared.] Va a cumplir catorce años. Y él está ya en la secundaria. Así que es primaria, secundaria, y está después preparatoria.
CW: Y, a ver, entonces, cuántos años tenía Victor cuando se fue usted de México?
MMP: Victor, el hijo mío?
CW: Sí.
MMP: Él ya estaba con su familia.
CW: Oh, ya estaba con su familia. Está bien. Y usted - ¿como es usted involucrada con la crianza de sus nietos allí? Hay unas decisiones que usted hace desde aquí? ¿O hacen todas las decisiones de la educación y todo eso allá en México?
MMP: No pues yo solamente ayudo. Yo lo que quiero - no me quiero meter en sus vidas. De mi - de sus hijos. Por qué ellos tienen que educarlos. Yo no más en lo económico, y los hijos pórtense bien, obedezcan a sus padres. Y pues ya no más me gritan, “te queremos mucho abuelita!” Y “cuando vienes,” siempre, “cuando vienes?” Pero que yo ordene, “haz esto con tu hijo!” No. No no no. Es su problema, es su vida, yo solamente soy su abuela, soy madre de mi hijo, y mi nueras son mis nueras. Y su lugar es su lugar.
CW: Eso sería diferente si usted estuviera en México? O sería igual?
MMP: Es igual.
CW: Es igual.
MMP: Es igual. Y también si ellos llegan a venir alguna vez aquí, y también si quieren que vivamos juntos, sería igual. Porque yo soy yo, ellos son ellos, y yo no me meto. Si puedo, ayudo. Pero si no, no.
CW: Usted es buena abuela.
MMP: Yo los quiero. Amo tanto a mis hijos, y a mi nieto, que soy capaz de quedarme sin comer para que ellos no les falten nada. Y quisiera convertirme en la solución cuando tienen problema. Y es de aquí adentro. [Pone el mano a la corazón.] No es no más para quedar bien. Porque yo no sé de donde tengo tanto amor para mi familia. En especial para mis padres, para mis hermanos, no sé. Así soy yo. Sí.
CW: ¿Y le parece a usted que es diferente en otras familias?
MMP: Pues no, pero yo he visto casi la mayoría, por lo menos, veces dicen que los hijos de una nuera no se quieren. Yo así yo no sé como contestar porque como no tengo una hija. Pero yo pienso que es igual. Como tengo dos hijos, y dos nueras, sí sentí dolor cuando los dos las han buscado. Pero era aquí adentro. Pero no porque se las busquen. Sino si -- está muy bien que busquen su pareja, porque si un día yo me muero, ellos que van a hacer sin pareja. Y siempre está mejor la pareja. Porque nos estamos peleando, pero tiene que ser así. Es mejor. Y también yo les he inculcado a mis hijos que no tengan otros mujeres, que no vayan a tener hijos en otros lados, porque no me gustaría saber que un nieto mío anda afuera de la familia. Y ellos no tienen porque buscar otra mujer, porque la que buscaron es la que dios les mandó, y la que buscaron es la que Dios les mandó, y la tienen que cuidar. Yo también no me buscaba otro marido. Y mi esposo motivos me ha dado, pero yo pienso así: ¿para qué busco otro? Si este es así, otro va a ser peor. Mejor me quedo así. Y así me quedé. Ya cuarenta años con mi esposo.
CW: Wow. Que lindo.
MMP: Mmhmm. Sí. Y sí nos peleamos, pero igual, un ratito, y ya ratito igual bien. Y otro pleitito y así. Pero cosa así simple. Pero ahorita yo creando llorona, por, ves que estuve enferma, y con los medicamentos me agarra depresión. [Se escucha la música de Rafael.]
CW: ¿Y como se comunica usted con la familia en México?
MMP: Por teléfono.
CW: ¿Y con qué frecuencia?
MMP: Yo cuando tenga tiempo, una media hora con cada quien. Cuando es con mis nietos, la tarjeta me da dos horas. Y hablo con mi hijo, hablo con mi nuera, con mis nietos. Y pero ahorita tengo quince días porque asaltaron a mi hijo allá, y le robaron el teléfono de la empresa, y creo que no tiene ahorita teléfono.
CW: Pero se comunican con bastante frecuencia?
MMP: Sí, y si no él me marca. Y ya “¿como están?” Aunque no tardemos mucho “como están, como está papá.” Y ya si mi esposo se puede hacer ciudadano, pues vamos a pedir el paquete. Para Victor y para mis niños. Estas son cuatas, mira. [Mostrando el foto de Victor y los nietos otra vez.] Más que esta nació más chiquita que la otra. Pero él es el primero, y estas son cuatas.
CW: Lindo. ¿Y cuántos años tienen todos ahora?
MMP: Él tiene trece, y las niñas tienen diez.
CW: ¿Con qué frecuencia visita usted a México?
MMP: Cada que se van ustedes de vacaciones, yo voy aunque sea por un mes o por una semana. Pero ahora pienso ir en Junio para -- mis nietos van a ser su primera comunión. Y voy a verlos vestidos de blanco, y recibir a nuestro Dios. Bueno en mi religión mía (22:23) es una maravilla.
CW: Está bien. Y para -- tiene usted -- me parece que hay mucha gente que no puede visitar a su familia --
MMP: Los que no tienen papeles. Porque si van, ¿como regresan?
CW: Sí. ¿Tiene usted amigos que están en esa situación?
MMP: Sí. Tengo bastante, y familia. Tengo familias en Chicago que ya tienen casi los dieciséis o veinte años tal vez sin ver a las familias. Pero también ahorita con el arreglo de visas, ya vino la mama de uno de ellos. Y ahorita mi hermana tiene todo su familia en Chicago, y no ha podido arreglar su visa. Y yo no sé los motivos del porque a unas personas se las dan con tanta facilidad y otras no.
CW: Ya, no sé. Y para ellos - le parece usted que es más difícil porque no se ven?
MMP: Pues, se hablan en seguido pero igual yo pienso que también lloran. Porque luego están (23:57), prometiendo a la Virgen de Guadalupe o a Dios “ayudame padre mío por mi familia” algo así. Y yo pienso que todo el mundo sufrimos por lo mismo. Y yo admiro de verdad en corazón, admiro todas esas personas. Cuantas valientes son, para soportar. Mira, hay muchachos que se les han muerto sus padres y madres, y siguen aquí. Pobrecitos. Y me da mucho dolor cuando sé que no fueron, pero igual, ahí me tocó no ir a ver a mi papá cuando murió, porque yo me vine el 28 de noviembre, mi padre murió el 11 de diciembre, y no tenía dinero. No pude ir. Porque también cuesta mucho. Si no trabajas, no tienes dinero. Así que hay que trabajar, y hacer tu ahorro, aparte de trabajar tu ahorro parte de todos los gastos, para decir este dólar es para mi alcancía por si quiero ver a mi familia. Y solamente así.
CW: Y - a ver - ¿las otras personas en su familia también visitan a México? ¿Con la misma frecuencia?
MMP: ¿Otras personas?
CW: ¿Como Raúl, y Rafael también? ¿Vienen con usted cuando visitas a México? [Conocí a Raúl más temprano en la casa de María.]
MMP: No, Raúl no puede ir. Pero no tiene ya más que un hermano allá. Pero se comunica. Raúl no es mi familiar, pero como de años nos conocemos él me dice tía. Pero bastantes personas vienen y me dicen tía aunque no sea. [Ríe.]
CW: [Ríe.] Sí, está bien. Entiendo.
MMP: Siempre me dicen tía. Y yo no me enojo, porque gracias que [ríe], que les caigo bien. Y de la familia de Rafa, pues ahorita más es la niña que está allí [muestra una foto de un bebé en la pared], y su esposa, pero tampoco ha metido aplicación para -- él tiene miedo que lo llamen a la guerra, dice. Aquí como, como es que los mandan a la guerra?
CW: Ah - hay, hay una cosa que se llama el “draft,” y cuando el presidente dice que hay el “draft,” todos los que son mayores que 18 años pueden estar llamado para la guerra. Me da miedo.
MMP: Sí.
CW: Como - ¿como piensa usted que se siente su familia al tenerle a usted en los Estado Unidos?
MMP: Pues mis padres me extrañaron mucho. Mi hijo pues él cuando hablamos me dice, dice “mamá, por qué somos tan poquitos y estamos tan separados?” Y le digo, “ya, nos vamos a juntar un día.” Y él me dice a cada rato, “Ya vente. Ya vénganse.” Dice, “Qué están haciendo allí.” Le digo, “Yo creo que ya nadie me da trabajo allá, hijo. Espera un poquito lo que me pensiono.” “Ya, no pides nada,” dice, “Yo te mantengo.” [Ríe.] Pero eso es en el momento de desesperación, pienso. Entonces yo sí, quisiera que se le arreglara su papel a mi hijo, porque él también pues también a su familia, porque es tan difícil separarse de los hijos, del esposo. [Empieza a llorar.]
CW: Sí, sí. [Pausa.] Usted piensa que si Victor viene, que él va a venir con la familia entera?
MMP: Esperemos. Pero también ahorita si él se viene, esa familia pues lo extrañará. Está en plena juventud. Así que en cuando mi esposo hace ciudadano, ya hablamos que vamos a trabajar, y bueno, si me pensiono y si reunimos dinero, es para arreglarles a todos, y Rafael a su esposo. Y si podemos arreglar. Si no se arregla, nos iremos. Pero yo no me puedo ir, porque mi esposo aquí tiene todos los beneficios médicos. Y allá, siempre que vamos, es mucho gastadero. Es tres mil pesos por la semana para la diálisis. Aparte medicamentos. Yo espero, espero a ver que si arregla a la ciudadanía mi esposo. El doctor le va ayudando. Traemos a Victor, Rafa se trae la familia, y juntitos aquí.
CW: Entones usted prefiere que sean juntos aquí que en México?
MMP: Pues sí porque es prima aquí para que mis nietos estudien, viven mejor aunque estemos encerrados, porque ya trabajando aquí esta casa se queda sola. Pero en la tarde ya llegamos y nos juntamos, ya nos vemos, y en México, pues yo pienso que si vienen y mis nueros quieren trabajar, y yo ya estoy retirada, puedo cuidar a mis niños. Entonces sí. Los mando a la escuela, les preparo su comida mientras. Y así. Estarán mejor.
[El teléfono suena. Contesta y habla. Cuelga.]
MMP: Es una mujer que salió que trabajar, y quiere si -- tengo gorditas dice. Digo que sí. Pero se va a bañar, dice que en media hora.
CW: Ah, está bien.
MMP: Sí, así es.
CW: Y usted dijo antes que no se meta mucho con la crianza de los hijos y los nietos. ¿Tiene amigos que sí se metan - se meten más?
MMP: Con la familia?
CW: Sí.
MMP: Aquí no, pero allá en México si hay abuelas. Y aquí estaba platicando con dos muchachos yo, y me dijo, “y por qué usted es así, como habla de su familia?” y dije “no sé,” y dijo “no, mis dos abuelas eran bien malas,” y no quiere que vayan diciendo eso de mí. Yo no porque yo quiero mucho a mis hijos. Y el bienestar de mis hijos es el bienestar mío. Y si veo a un hijo sufriendo, yo también sufro. Yo si le falta algo, y que yo pudiera por avariciosa aquí lo tengo y no le doy, no no no. Aquí estoy, “ten hijo,” a los dos. Si cuando él está en México, y tengo dos cientos dólares, son cien para él y cien para el otro. Yo no quiero - y no quiero nada para mí. Porque cuando uno está joven es cuando más necesita. Y también viejito. Pero yo como que tengo una fe adentro de mi, no voy a necesitar nada de viejita porque yo le pido a dios que cuando yo no pueda hacer nada [da una palmada] me muera. [Ríe.] Yo no se si sí o si no, pero pienso que sí.
CW: [Ríe.] Mi abuela dice lo mismo.
MMP: Sí? Y así hago, y yo vivo muy tranquila. Cuando me desespero es porque no alcanzo a arreglar todo lo que yo quisiera. Pero esperemos en Dios que nos ayude. Y vamos a vivir muy bien.
CW: A ver que más. Cuál -- no sé -- ¿para usted que son las cosas más difíciles de tener tanta migración entre México y los Estados Unidos?
MMP: ¿Qué es más difícil?
CW: Mmhmm.
MMP: [Pausa.] Bueno, pues yo tenía entendido que -- que es más difícil -- ¿como para que dejar en el paso libre?
CW: ¿O a ver, cuales son los desafíos de vivir en los Estados Unidos?
MMP: [A su hijo, que ahora está sentado en el sofá.] ¿Qué son desafíos, Rafa?
Rafael Patiño: Como que es difícil.
MMP: ¿De vivir aquí?
CW: Mmhmm.
MMP: Pues no, si tu eres trabajadora, y honesta, no hay nada que. Porque a mí nunca se me ha hecho difícil. Ni vivir aquí, ni vivir allá, porque es igual. No más tienes que tener tu trabajo, ser responsable, no meterte en malos caminos, vivir como debe de vivir, y está todo bien. Pero si tú buscas, tú encuentras. Entonces pienso que aquí lo difícil para mi fue cuando llegamos, que no hay un bil, un talón de cheque que demostrar que estás trabajando, pero ya teniendo tu talón de cheque, y tu apartamento donde vivir, pues ya no es nada difícil. No salgas en la noche a hacer cosas malas, y todo está bien. No ofendas a nadie, para que nadie te ofenda, así de sencillo. Y eso te lo enseñan tus padres desde que vas creciendo. Si tu quieres lo tomas, y si tú quieres mal camino tú lo dejas, pero si lo catas desde que te enseñan entonces nunca hay mal camino. Que todos los caminos son buenos si tu lo llevas por el bueno.
CW: Sí. De acuerdo. Sobre -- ¿qué hace usted y qué hace -- qué hace la otra gente que conoce usted para aguantar la separación de la familia?
MMP: Hacer oración a Diós. Y mucho valor adentro del corazón porque, pues de llorar sí lloramos, de decir - bueno yo me paso bendiciendo a mis hijos de día y de noche. Porque esa fe grande me ayuda a calmar mi desesperación de estar unidos. Y ellos que también son lindos conmigos, porque no me dan - como te digo - que problemas. Ellos si, si van a tomar una copa en la casa me hablan. “Mamá, compramos una botella, pero no más lo vamos a tomar.” Y no son locos que se salgan, porque ellos ya saben que tienen que tomar quietos si toman. Pero casi no.
CW: Huh. Está muy bien eso. Sí. ¿Y sus amigos y amigas hacen igual, ya oración a dios para aguantar la separación?
MMP: Yo pienso que sí. Sí porque casi nos comunicamos. Y también yendo a la iglesia. Yo no voy seguida pero ahorita por un tiempo pero este niño cantaba en la iglesia [mociona a Rafael], entonces nos vamos a misa cada ocho días, y es bien bonito porque escuchamos la palabra, le doy gracias a Dios que me deja estar pasando el tiempo, todos los días en la mañana igual, “Gracias padre por abrirme mis ojitos.” Y ahí sí. Pero Rafael, yo pienso que él va a trabajar allí, ¿verdad hijo? Allí en la iglesia.
CW: Ah. Está bien.
MMP: Mmhmm. Él canta muy bonito, con guitarra.
CW: Ah wow. Que bueno. Sí. Y - a ver que más. [Pausa.] Como - no sé. Para mí lo más triste de la migración es como están separados --
MMP: Separando los niños de sus padres.
CW: Sí.
MMP: Sí. Ese también es bien doloroso porque imaginate cuantos niños, cuantos niños están sin su padre, sin su madre, y cuantos han agarrado como migración se queda con los niños, y la mamá no puede recoger a su hijo por falta de esa documentación. Y tiene que darle la patria (40:43) a otra persona que tenga papeles. Si no, no ven a su hija más.
CW: Y que piensa usted que es el efecto de tener la separación entre las familias, en México? Que afecto ha tenido en los hijos?
MMP: [Pausa.] Pues bueno, se enferman. Hasta nosotros los mayores, nos enfermamos con las separaciones. Porque te afecta - en especial tu fe, tu amor que está - que existe con tus - que está saliendo adelante. Ni te digo esto por un sobrino que, mi cuñado se vino, y el niño tenía tres años, y él se tuvo que regresar porque el niño se le cayó todo el pelo.
CW: Wow. Entonces se enferman muy físicamente.
MMP: Sí. Y de allí, pues ya son niños, como crecen con una tristeza. O inseguros. Y un compadre, padrino del hijo, fue él que tuvo que hablarle, fue él que dijo, “que te importa más,” dijo, “el dinero o tu familia?” Pues mi familia. “Tu familia ya te quiere aquí,” y pues regresó. Todo el pelo le salió al niño. Sí, separarlos a los hijos de los padres -- yo no comprendo porque es esto de los, como se dice de la, de las deportaciones? Para qué quieren esos niños sufriendo? Yo pienso que deberían dejar libre, o poner ya de una vez, echarles a todos, y quedarse así. Si nos echan a todos ya se quedan, y ya no venimos.
CW: Entonces la - usted está diciendo que la deportación también separa a las familias que ya están aquí?
MMP: Pues sí. Fijáte cuántos niños, cuantos papás andan por allá y sus hijos los han encargado aquí. Con otras familias. Ah, pues conozco algunos, y yo no sé que va a hacer de esas criaturas. Crecen y después adonde van. Sin hogar. Y por lo también hablan por teléfono, porque aquí nos ayudamos. Si yo tengo y él no tiene, pues lo ayudo. Y por eso es de que aguantamos aquí. Porque si yo veo a alguien que no tiene de comer yo le ofrezco. Y si no tiene donde pasar una noche pues te puedes quedar aquí. Y pues ya consiguen en otro lado. Así cuando yo llegué como te digo, llegué con mi Rafa, chiquito de once años, y llegué a rimarme a la casa de un amigo de un esposo. Y después cuando Rafa empezó a decirme, “por qué me trajiste, y que hacemos aquí,” y pues el sufrió, también unos morenos me aquí en University, yo me tenía que ir a trabjar y ese día llegué. Dije, y mi niño no está, y salí, y siempre está Alberto en frente, porque lo tenían sumido abajo. Y cuando grité “RAFA!” lo soltaron, y salió mi niño. Pues estaba chiquito, once años. Y todo eso él también sufrió. También otro lo acosaron en la escuela. Y por todo eso, todo eso es sufrimiento para todos los padres. Y tú no creas que todo los que vivimos, somos acosados. Porque aquí ya uno llegue ciego. Y después nuestros hijos, en mayor razón, pues los trae uno aquí. Y oy, no. Hay los que nacen aquí, y sus padres están siempre. Pero también hay ignorancia en los hispanos porque venimos de otros - otros - como te diré - otras formas de vivir. En los ranchos donde vivimos allá - aquí un rancho es tu tierra solo tuya. Y allí un rancho es un rancho, es una comunidad de personas que vivimos cerquitas, y si sabemos que esté enfermo, y no tiene la ayudamos. Y si no tiene de comer le damos. Y ellos nos dan si necesitamos. Y aquí quien te va a dar. Como si aquí si salgo a la calle, y grito “tengo hambre, quién me da un taco?” nadie me va a dar.
CW: Entonces le parece que hay menos comunidad aquí que allá?
MMP: Sí. Y aquí todavía te van a notar si eres elegible. Te van a investigar. Porque a mi esposo le dan estampillas. Pero tiene que llevar los estados de cuenta del banco, que la cuenta yo la abrí para no estar pagando cinco dólares cada que iba a cambiar mi cheque. Y me sirvió bastante porque a él ya le llega su depósito de seguro a él, mi cheque cada semana, y no es harto. Pues imagínate si son 300 que me depositan, y cuanto pagamos de luz, de agua. Antes no cobraban el agua. Y ahora ya cobran el agua. [Se escuche a Rafael, que está sentado en el otro sofá.]
CW: Y con el tema de la comunidad allá y aquí, le parece a usted que la gente hispana tiene más comunidad aquí que la gente Americana?
MMP: Pero sí los Americanos son bien lindos también. No más que les pasa igual. Porque ustedes son - no tengo nada que hablar de los Americanos. Son divinos. No más que también como van -- si tu tuvieras por decir un lugar donde recoger de los que se quedan en la calle. Pero también hay unos que son flojos. No trabajan. También allá en México. También hay marijuanos. También hay vivientes. Igual que aquí. Pero también las comunidades -- es lo que te nombras un rancho. Y aquí los ranchos es un rancho de un Americano pero son sus tierras, sus caballos, sus vacas [ríen las dos], y allá no. Allá es un rancho, pero no de vacas, de pura gente. [Ríen otra vez.] Y le llaman la comunidad.
CW: Entonces - no sé como decir esa pregunta pero - para mí - yo vivo muy lejos de mi familia, como usted también. Pero para mí no tenemos esa misma cultura de los ranchos. Entonces le parece que es más difícil para ustedes si tienen esa comunidad en México de los ranchos?
MMP: Pues si vives allí está bien. Pero igual, yo mis padres vivían en esa comunidad, pero yo luego uno de mis hermanas trabajaba en una empresa más grande, y le dieron un apartamento. Él no lo quería, y le dije, “pasámelo a mí,’ y le dije, “yo pago los pagos, y cuando ya se terminen los pagos, tu firmes a la escritura para mi nombre.” Y así fue como yo me cambié vivir a Celaya. Y, y igual, pues estamos - todavía se acaba de pagar. Estamos como quien dice pagando renta. Hasta cuando se alive. Ya que terminemos, entonces sí ya. Pero 20 años. Aquí si sacas una casa, cuantos años, a treinta. Porque yo traté de sacar una. Pero tenía que quedar mil dólares mensuales. No tengo esa cantidad. Pues no saqué nada. Ahorita también yo quisiera poder tener, como dicen que el banco te presta, pero también tengo miedo de que yo me endeude al banco y que no puede pagar. Pero yo sí quisiera una casa. Pero aquí en Carrboro. Porque mi gusta. Es tranquilo, tiene todos los servicios cerquitas. Puedo ir a pie a la farmacia, a la carnicería, a la policía. O simplemente a sentarme un rato en el jardín de la Weaver. Ahí me gusta ir.
CW: Ah, sí. A mi también.
MMP: Ves que hay nieve, hay café, todas las semillas que venden adentro, todas me gustan. Es muy bonito. Y no tengo que usar auto. Yo puedo ir caminando. Me voy al molecito, que está de donde está el restauran - como se llama - Diners? [Preguntándole a Rafael.] Como se llama donde trabajaba?
RP: Elmos.
CW: Ah, Elmos, sí.
MMP: Ahí hay un molecito. Ahí yo me voy a veces, cuando hace mucho calor, y que estoy de vacaciones. De otra forma no pues yo estoy trabajando a diario. No más si no voy a México, me quedo de vacaciones aquí, y me pongo a caminar. Si no en las tardes también. Me gusta caminar mucho.
CW: Bueno, no tengo más preguntas. Pero tiene usted algo más para añadir a la historia, o algo que --
MMP: No, ya es bastante.
CW: Sí?
MMP: Sí.
CW: Bueno.
MMP: Yo te dije mucho. Está bién así.
CW: Bueno. Entonces --
MMP: Ya te puse de chapadita más de un cache.
CW: Como?
MMP: Eres bien rojita.
CW: Ah, sí? [Ríe.] Estaba en el sol ayer. Bueno entonces apago.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-0706 -- Maldonado de Patiño, María de los Ángeles.
Description
An account of the resource
María de los Angeles Maldonado de Patiño provides a personal account of how she deals with having half of her family in the United States and half of her family in Mexico. She touched on issues such as mobility for people who are documented versus undocumented and the ways immigrants maintain contact with family members in Mexico. She also discusses religion as one way of coping with family separation, the effect that money sent back to family in Mexico has on their daily lives, the strange duality of some family members getting visas while others do not, and the health problems and negative psychological aspects of being an immigrant in the United States. Finally she explores differences in the cultures, particularly the lack of a sense of community in the United States.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
05 April 2014
Format
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R0706_Audio.mp3
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/20973">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/4efb3406db6029e417eeca6cceb78101.mp3
5086d41e7374ae27b8b8ea55cdb1ff22
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/58de4050e034664597a07de256bb26c2.pdf
bee228b0208d3e401f4e922904ee9694
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0715
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
29 Mar 2014
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Villa-Torres, Laura.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Students Social Justice Activists; Health Care Administrators
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1981
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Mexico City -- Mexico
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Chapel Hill -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-99.1275 19.4283333),1981,1;POINT(-79.05584450000003 35.9131996),2007,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Patel, Radha Atul.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Laura Villa Torres was born and raised in Mexico. She studied Sociology as an undergrad and she has always had an interest in Sociology of Health. She worked at Ipas in Mexico on the topic of youth sexual and reproductive rights advocacy, where she had the opportunity to collaborate with diverse public institutions, including the Mexican Ministry of Health. Villa Torres was also a member of the Youth Coalition for Sexual and Reproductive Rights, with whom she did advocacy work at the United Nations. After that, she moved to Chapel Hill, in North Carolina, to continue her work at Ipas, and now she is a graduate student in the Health Behavior department at UNC Chapel Hill. Villa Torres, with her experience in Mexico, United States and in the United Nations, offers an overview of the complexity of the healthcare for immigrants in North Carolina. Her current research focuses on the mental health of day laborer men that have left their homes in Latin America and are now living abroad, without their families and with little resources. Villa Torres shares her thoughts on the themes of access to healthcare, and the associated problems' origins and solutions.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Laura Villa-Torres by Radha Atul Patel, 29 March 2014, R-0715, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/20970
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Health; Culture; Citizenship and immigration; Community and social services and programs; Receiving communities
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Radha Patel: Okay well, good afternoon. I am the Radha—I mean (laughter), the interviewer, Radha. I am interviewing Laura Villa Torres, who is a graduate student at the school of Public Health at UNC Chapel Hill. We are doing this interview in her office in Rosenau on March 29, 2014. Well, thank you so much for letting me interview you. Could you start with maybe a basic overview of your personal history and your relations and interests in health?
Laura Villa Torres: Well I come from a family from public health professions so that's how I got interested in health and public health. And yea, I think when I was about to go to college, I was deciding whether to go for medicine school or for sociology- two very different. But I really wanted to do public health so I asked my parents what could I study that I could go and do public health without studying medicine. And they said, “well you can do several things including sociology,” and that's how I decide to do sociology. So when I was in college, in Mexico it’s a bit different- you go straight to your “major,” let’s say. I did sociology for 4 years. So when I was there, I started working for a non-profit organization that’s called Ipas, which actually has the headquarters here in Chapel Hill. So I started working there and I started working on reproductive health, and the sexual and reproductive health and rights movement, and the youth movement in Mexico. And, I don't know, it just happened naturally. From then on, my college was particular in the sense that it requires you to do research instead of exams or papers. It’s divided in trimesters— quarters. And yea, you have to do research and it’s a module instead of a class. So lets say we have a module on economy. All my classes and seminars were related to economy. So after my I think 7th quarter, all my research started just gravitating towards health, so that just happened naturally. And then, I did my – you have to do in Mexico- one year of social service, meaning you work for free for the government. So I worked in the Ministry of Health. I was working on the adolescent health program and doing several things, but mainly I was trying to do all the literature review for the National Guidance for the Adolescent Health Program. And then I participated in actually developing the National program for Adolescent Sexual and Reproductive Health, but I will tell you about that later. Anyhow, so I came to work in health and then after a few years working locally and globally, I was a member of the Youth Coalition for Sexual and Reproductive Health. And that's an organization that is volunteer-based and its member-based, too. And the main objective of that organization is do advocacy at the global level. So I started working a lot at the UN and working on advocacy related to sexual and reproductive health again, including HIV, sexual violence, adolescent reproductive rights, and from there, I applied for a job in Ipas here in Chapel Hill. And that’s how I migrated. Yea, and then after working at Ipas, I decided I wanted to continue my training because I only had my Bachelor’s. I started at a different program, a master’s program on Gender and Public Policy but I couldn’t finish. It was just too much to work and study. So I decided to go back full time for schools and I was looking for schools, I was already here.
RP: In North Carolina?
LVT: In North Carolina, yea, because I was living in- I came to work for Ipas. And when I was here, everybody was telling, “Well, UNC was one of the best schools of public health, so you should apply there.” And it was kind of a dream because I thought, “it’s not gonna happen, they’re not gonna accept me.” But it happened, and I’m very happy about it.
RP: That’s great! Cool, thank you.
LVT: It’s a bit of a long story.
RP: Oh, that’s okay, that’s an awesome story. So I know that you mentioned you were doing reproductive work—of reproductive rights work in Mexico—what part of Mexico was that in?
LTV: Mainly Mexico City, but I worked in many states because we had a partnership with the Ministry of Health to work on the Adolescent Health Program and Ipas has a manual that was called “Gender and Sex, Who Cares?” and it was a training manual that taught people about gender issues. So we started using that to train health care providers in several states of Mexico. And so, we went by the people that were in charge of the of the adolescent program at the state level and we’d bring out the lesson so they both would come together and do work. It was a lot of fun and we did that for a year and a half. So I got to travel in many places. I went to Sinaloa, Sonora, Guerrero, Oaxaca, Veracruz, Puebla, Quintana Roo. I don’t know, I think I went to ten- fifteen states. There are states that I’ve only been once it was like San Luis Potosi, Zacatecas, Michoacán.
RP: Did you go to Guanajuato at all?
LVT: I’m trying to think if I went to Guanajuato. I went, but not for that. In Guanajuato, I remember they tried to ban, from the local penal code, the extension for abortion for women that have been raped. But that was like ten years ago or something like that. And we went there because we were advocating for it not to happen. So we went with the women’s movement in Guanajuato and we had a conference and so I went for that, I didn’t go for the other stuff.
RP: I know that when we went over spring break, we were tourists for a couple of days and in a lot of the churches that we went to visit, there were posters talking about abortion and showing babies. Do you find that things like that happen in other states, because I know that, well I guess Guanajuato is a very conservative state in that sense. Do you think that happens in a lot of Mexican families here in the United States as well or..?
LVT: That they have abortions, you mean? Or that they are conservative?
RP: I guess just that they have very strict views towards things like that? And so did that make your work very difficult or do you not get that sense?
LVT: No, I would say...interesting…I don’t know but I’m gonna guess. Yes, Guanajuato is one of the most conservative states and it has always been. That’s for sure. Now, I think what happened with migration is that the pressure of migration really put a very difficult situation. And you start realizing that those conservative views cannot be held because they are in detriment to yourself. For example, with the work that I’ve done here on reproductive health with Latinos. The patterns are even though they are really religious, they are sending their kids to the training, the reproductive health training. And when we ask them, “why, if you’re so religious, you’re still sending them?” And we’re very open with them. “We’re gonna talk about condoms, protection, and abortion.” And they’re like “no no, but it’s okay because I cannot talk to my kids about that because of my views. But I know they need it because I don’t want them get pregnant next year and then ruin their lives forever. Which of course a negative view of pregnancy in adolescence, and that’s also constructed, but it’s a reality that if I’m an adolescent or a young woman without the means and haven’t finished school and all that, it’s gonna be more difficult to make it. So, I think there’s a relaxation of the norm. Now, I also think that when people migrate here they start getting more and more religious because churches are a natural place to go and form communities. So I don’t know if that relaxation then again turns around after going to church and then they start becoming even more conservative again. So I think it’s a process, but it has to do with—I think migration impacts their view.
RP: Interesting. I think I’ve noticed that a lot with my parents as well. Well, this is sort of a different topic, but it seems like a lot of programs nowadays are focused on health education, like the ones you were saying. Do you think that it maybe holds a greater or lesser value than actually providing medical care? I don’t know—does that make sense?
LVT: yea well, I have my views about that. I think location is important. I think community participation is important and that people get involved in their own wellbeing, I will say instead of health care. It’s more their well-being. Like okay, let’s build safe neighborhoods, let’s have safe roads, let’s clean, let’s have our houses clean, let’s recycle, and things like that. But this approach of substituting “health care,” per say, with a physician and a nurse and people that are trained for that, with community health work. I think it’s a bit denying their right to care for people. Because there’s only so much you can get through a person that provides information. For example, I can tell you right now, “this is how you use a condom. This is how Plan B works. But if you have an infection, I cannot tell you what to do about that. But if the only thing you have related to health care at all is whatever I can provide you is information, that falls short in terms of what the people need. And you see it, like that’s what they call about the health-immigrant paradox. People come here very healthy and of course they come very healthy because they are the ones that are strong enough to migrate and they are the entrepreneurs of their families and they want to go and make a better life. Of course they are healthy. But as time passes and they start not having access to health care, ask them ten years later how many times they have been to see a doctor or a dentist, or even a nurse. They have gotten their vaccinations? They have pap smears done? A woman has to do the pap smear every two years or three years at the minimum. So, that’s gone after migration. So I think we need to keep building the issues related to education and health promotion and prevention, but not forget that access to health care is important.
RP: Thank you, that was really interesting.
LVT: Which, for example, now with the Affordable Care Act, many immigrants are out of it.
RP: Are out of it?
LVT: Yea, because that was the negotiation for signing the Affordable Care Act. Undocumented immigrants are not. But those who are documented immigrants, like people holding temporary visas, student visas, like me, and I would say even like the long term visas- the H-1Bs, which are for professionals or high-tech visas. All of those are out of the Affordable Care Act. So, we don’t have that- the ones that we have some sort of authorization to be here, we have to pay for our own health care. The ones that are undocumented, they’re gonna be the ones that have a very, very hard time- even finding an insurance that wants to SELL to them.
RP: Even if they have the means to pay?
LVT: Yea, mhm.
RP: Wow. Okay, so for students- what do they- so what did it do for North Carolina specifically? Sorry, I’m a little confused about that.
LVT: Yea, the Affordable Care Act mandates health insurance for everybody in the country. And that's why there are a lot of announcements. People have to enroll, and for people with low income, the federal government and some states will supplement the cost. And then it got rid of several things also, like the pre-existing conditions. That applies to a lot of folks too, for example.
RP: So it’s like everybody who is a citizen is guaranteed this access to health care, but people who are on different types of visas—
LVT: Yes, exactly. I think residents—permanent residents or green cards and citizens enter in the pack. And everybody else (shakes head, indicating no coverage). We see it that, I don’t know.
RP: What was it like before the Affordable Care Act for people with visas and student visas and thing like that?
LVT: It was like everybody, you just have to pay your insurance. For me, it’s gonna continue like the same. This is an example of the- it’s an example of how big changes in policy might not affect individuals directly, but affect- in general, the health of the population. Because for me, it’s the same. I mean, my life before the Affordable Care Act and after the care act remain the same. But for people that were never ever able to get insurance because of pre-existing conditions or because they didn’t have the money to pay, they aren’t gonna have health care. And that's huge. That’s huge and that has a big impact in very marginalized communities and minority communities. So, I’m not saying it’s bad but the negotiation was around immigrants.
RP: Okay, I didn’t know that. So, how are people accessing health care resources? Like for people who either are undocumented or who have these types of visas? I know that you said that you have to pay for it, and somebody else that I’m interviewing said earlier on- she said that she works at a health clinic and people pay based on their income. So how is that- do people just go to a clinic?
LVT: Yea, well, there are several things. There are—. For example for me, I just pay my health insurance but I am a student so it is the same for all over. If you go here to student health, you don’t even have to pay a co-payment or anything. Now, I recently have a more serious issue and the insurance pays most of it, but I still, I now have a debt of one thousand dollars. Just because of the co-payments and the insurance doesn’t cover all of it. I meant that’s gonna still happen to everybody. Now, for people that are on the- and I think everybody that has a, I want to say, maybe the professional visas and student visas, I’m pretty sure people have insurance. Now for temporary visas like the farmworker..?
RP: H-2A?
LVT: H-2A, yea. The H-2A or the H-1B2 or something like that. I don’t know if everybody has health insurance or care of some sort of—. There are federally qualified health centers- you’ve heard about those. So those centers are community centers that are federally funded and those are the ones that provide income-based costs or scale of payment. So a lot of people go there because they receive everybody, without needing documentation. But the problem with those is that they are really saturated. And there are priorities— children and women have priority and men don’t have really, so they feel they don’t have access. So those are one option, and they are great. And actually, they say that with the Affordable Care Act, everybody is going to have insurance, there is not point to keep the federally qualified health centers open, so that’s a problem because those are the centers that cover the health care of the undocumented. And also, the, some of these federally qualified health center also receive funding for farmworkers’ health. So I know that one in Fuquay, they have the farmworker clinic Thursday afternoons. And they go and pick up- like the farmworker has to tell whoever in the camp, “I need to see the doctor.” They make an appointment, somebody picks them up and takes them to the clinic and drives them back. I think the volunteers that do that, just to transfer people from camp to camp to the clinic and return them, they are very good. They are doing—because they are volunteers and they drive people around. But again, there is only one place during the week and it’s only once.
RP: Do you think that—does that happen at most farm work organization or is it just a few?
LVT: I don't know if it’s everybody.
RP: ‘Cause we had guest speakers come into one of my classes last year and she was talking about how, for people who are undocumented, especially farmworkers. And they’re working very long hours, and they say they feel like if they step up and ask their employers for better working conditions or for health care, for those issues and they will report them and they get deported and things like that?
LVT: Yea, we were saying yesterday, because we went to a talk, that they—kind of a benefit system that reproduces itself very easily because people is afraid, they need the income, they don’t pick. The others have all the power over the other people. They will never improve the conditions—there’s no incentive to improve conditions. And even though there are labor laws and I would say even human rights treaties, although that is more vague in the United Stated, but they are still there, there’s no way to enforce those. Like whatever happens inside of those camps, it is a land of nobody. And, yea, I don’t see that as a priority of the immediate state level government or the federal government because if you really want to deport undocumented people, like the federal government does, then you go to the camps. Go and see how they’re living and take them out. There are people who have been almost like slaves because they are there without willing to be there but there is no escape. They have taken away their papers, they live in so remote areas, they don’t know where to go. And there is this story of – it’s in video. They took them on a bus to a Wal-Mart, but they would close all the doors of the Wal-Mart, let them shop, and then put them back in the bus and take them to the camp. But somehow, two of them escaped and that’s how people started talking about this almost new way of slavery. So, it’s terrible. And they don’t have any power. And at the same time, it’s like if there is some type of internal organization, what else can they do? Researchers, we can advocate for them. We can put out research that shows the conditions, but so what, then—who has the power? That’s the big question.
RP: Do you think that—how big of a role do you think the public perception of Latino people and of immigrants, how big of a role do you think that plays in I guess affecting what politicians want and what their priorities are? Do you think that’s a big role, or?
LVT: Well I think that, well I think that what we were saying yesterday was that there’s symbolic violence and the materialization of the suffering of bodies. Like the certain groups of people are like, “oh well, shame, but that’s how it is. These people are born to be that and suffer.” I mean I keep reading more and more lately about the black slavery and how similar the stories are and the replacement of one group for another. Because for me, there is a lot of similarity with the African American slavery produced. And then they sort of made segregation. So this again is not recognition of full citizenship, which translates into not having rights. And the ones that are “the others,” and the separation and segregation. And that's happening now with Latinos. And there is a construction about Latino migrants were equal to migrant workers, equals undocumented, equals illegal. So you don’t want anything to do with any of those people, no? And at the same time, there is deep, I don’t know the word, but like, “Oh, Mexican food is great!” and which is like, what are you talking about? Don’t you… I mean, there’s no coherence. But this is what you are as a citizen of this country that is putting so much suffering on these people. I’m sometimes very radical. (laughter).
RP: No, that’s completely fine! Okay, well I guess, do you think that how the people think is actually going to affect how the politicians want to enforce rules? Like do you think that if more people were like “hey!” If more people were standing up, if more people were advocating, do you think that the people would, amend the Affordable Care Act to make it more inviting or…I don't know?
LVT: Well, I think that for the Affordable Care Act, it’s not gonna happen soon. But, again, I was thinking for these kinds of problems, they really kind of need a revolution. Nothing that’s kind of guns or anything like that, but there’s only so much that we can do, for example, from the academia or the research to show, show the evidence, right, of things that are happening. Because the politicians can say, “well yea, but it’s not our priority, our priorities are this or that,” from both the federal and the local or state government. So for me, it’s the people getting organized and start saying the things, or telling the things as they are. Like, “look, we’re second class people. We’re the ones that move big machinery. Without us, it’s not gonna hold too long.” And also, the historical relationship with Latin America—It’s like denying all that tradition because sometimes North Americans, here and Canada, they kind of deny that they live in a continent that is, that has a lot of history together, no? And a lot of the economic benefits and the solid economy of the United States and Canada rely on many things that happen in Latin America. So it’s like, why cannot we just share a little bit of the cake? It’s not that we’re asking—and, this para—this brings a little bit of paranoia. Like “if we open the borders, everybody is gonna move here.” I don’t think so. It’s actually the opposite.
RP: You mean..?
LVT: People have been forced to move here with their families because of the hard boarding. Like the hard borders and how if you cannot cross the border… but if they were able to just come work and return, safely return, no? Because now the problems of the violence and other problems. If they can come work, safely return, families wouldn’t come here all together. Some might, I mean I’m not saying that it’s not going to happen, but it’s not gonna happen in these huge numbers that people think happen. I mean, it’s more circular, people coming and going. But for example, one movement the… going back to your question, the Dreamers, I think, is one example of getting organized and getting the word out. It’s like, we were raised here, we were grown up here, what are—I mean, what is our future and who’s in charge of us? Because, kind of, “we don't have states,” no? Nobody—their countries of origin have forgotten about them and the country where they grew up is not recognizing them. But the arguments that they bring out are very strong. And you even see some parallels with other movements, like the LGBT movement, no? Like coming out of the closet, it’s kind of this idea, “well, I’m unashamed and I’m gonna disclose that I am undocumented.” That’s very powerful. That’s very powerful. So I think that at least that, even though the Dreamer- the Dream Act hasn’t passed fully, it has created change because I believe that promoted the DACA, the stopped deportation of the students. And I think, their arguments are less challenged, even by conservative people. Because they are really substantiated or based on what people are so proud of the so-called “American Values,” no? which is entrepreneurship. And we’ve been studying where, how workers, you know? How can you go against that? It's almost going against yourself. So, I think the, the Dream Act, or the Dreamers are an example of a movement. Now, will the parents benefit from that? The parents of those dreamers? I don’t think so. They’re still seen as the “bad” migrants, no? the ones that crosses illegally, etc.
RP: I don’t know— have you had a lot of experience with people trying to access health care? I’m not sure? I know that you mentioned earlier that you worked with some of the…
LVT: Community workers. Yea. Not that, I mean, what they did was sort of refer people to health care or health services. But I was not the one referring people, no. But I was working with the promotoras do to that
RP: The promotoras?
LVT: Mhm, the community health workers.
RP: Ohh, okay.
LVT: Aha, yea sorry.
RP: Oh no no, that's okay. I wasn’t sure. Okay so I had a question. During class, one of my classmates this year said that he recently travelled to Texas and was talking to some of people that he met there about health care and things like that. And some of them didn’t really notice that they didn’t have access. And the people we was talking to were undocumented, so do you think that, I don’t know ‘cause, I’m involve with SLI. I don’t know if you know what that is but it’s a mentorship program for high school students and I was talking to my mentee’s mom and she, yea so she—oh she’s the one that works at the health clinic. And she was like, “Yea I mean, I don’t really see a problem. It’s based on income and people get what they need.” So I mean, I’ve heard two very different sides of the story and so I don’t know, what do you think about that?
LVT: Do you mean that it doesn’t seem to be a problem really?
RP: Oh, well that's what I’ve heard very recently, like from a couple of people and I was really curious because I would think that it was a big problem.
LVT: It’s actually a huge problem. It, it’s like, somebody was here two days ago and she leads a big…she’s a super person. She has created the Ventanillas de Salud, the Mexican consulate, the binational health week that now is like multinational because it’s in the U.S. and in the countries of origin. But anyway, she said that day that health is more a commodity than a right.so if you have money, you have health, right? Because even though these community health clinics are income-based, one, you still have to pay. And in general twenty dollars is not a lot, but to some I mean, just to us as students is like twenty dollars is like “uh okay” (laughter). So that’s one. Whereas in other countries, in or course Europe and Canada, but I’m mostly talking about Latin American countries or African countries, where health has been recognized as a right, people don’t have to put any money out of their pockets to pay for health care. And that’s based on the different allocation of taxation. The taxes from marginal locations to health care. In this country, most of the money goes for military purposes. I mean, with a little bit of that money to health care, people wouldn’t even need to have health insurance. I mean, everything would be covered. That’s one. And also who has access to these community health centers. Even though they exist, they don’t cover everybody. And for example, these guys that I work with, they were saying that the waiting time to get an appointment there is at least six months.
RP: Wow.
LVT: So imagine you go with diarrhea, fever, things that need immediate care. Or you broke your something or you have a cut. There’s no option, so that's why people go a lot to the emergency room. And you know how expensive it is, the emergency room, right? So, and people get into that getting to debt that is health related debt. I cannot ima—I mean it’s counted up so quickly. So quickly, you start to have, like I told you, that one thousand dollar debt because of the co-payment here and—. So, I think that’s an issue. Now, the other thing is it’s true, there might be some cultural things that—I am less and less attached to that reason—but the main reason is because they didn’t go to health, they didn’t have access to care in their countries of origin. Or they didn’t used to go to the doctor in their countries of origin, so when they come here, it’s not something that they lack because they never did. But I have—we will need to explore that more. Like what were their health practices before coming. But at least, I’m sure they had vaccinations. That—I mean every country in Latin America has very good vaccination records. I’m sure they went to see the doctor at least once. So, I think it’s a big issue. Now the other is maybe how people feel about themselves and if they are entitled to health care. You know?
RP: What do you mean by that?
LVT: Like, for example, if they feel, “Well, I am undocumented. It’s okay that I don’t have health care.” So, it’s not a problem, so maybe like, okay. And because they are undocumented, they expect the worst. “Yea, it’s okay I gain less money. It’s okay I don’t have holidays. It’s okay I don’t have health care because I am undocumented.” So there is all this stereotyping of the labeling, the separation, and then the self-stigma, or the self-discrimination or the, yea, that you are not entitled to anything because of your condition. So, I don’t know if that’s also going on in their heads, like “it’s okay because I am undocumented.” Instead of thinking that “I am a human being. I have rights. And I am not doing anything wrong, I just want to have a better life, as anybody else.” Yea, so I think it’s a problem, it’s just from what people say.
RP: Okay, interesting. Have you noticed any—or in your—what is your current research that you’ve been doing?
LVT: I am working on well, three things. One is how I’m going to get more involved in community-based. The other is we’re planning to do an education program on use of personal protection equipment for day laborers because they reduce the risk for accidents. And the other, which is my dissertation, is looking at mental health of undocumented men. I’m gonna focus on men. So, that’s what I’m working on.
RP: Have you, so have you noticed—I know you’ve been working with a lot of laborers—do you work with both agricultural and construction?
LVT: No, just day laborers. No farmworkers.
RP: Oh, okay. Well never mind then. Could you tell me a little bit more about the mental health perspective? I don’t really know much about that.
LVT: Yea, well, I wanted to do migration. So, because we’re in public health, they’re sort of like what are the health implications of what you want to study. I kept thinking like people who cut the, what we call distal outcomes, like things that happen later in life. Let’s say diabetes or heart disease or hypertension. So when you think about that, you almost just think like okay, almost like everybody’s gonna have that. You’re natural and you’re aging and you’re gonna get some age, but that’s gonna happen to you.
RP: Like things like glasses?
LVT: Yes, exactly, vision. Anyhow, but there are many studies showing that there’s people that age faster and it’s related to of course the genetics, but also the exposition to risks and harms and things like that. So that’s called allostatic load, like the wear and tear of the body.
RP: Allostatic?
LVT: Allostatic Load. So there has been some research done about how things like discrimination, stigma, go through your mind, of course, and activate certain hormones in your body that, if they stay activated, they cause aging faster. And that process of aging introduces into chronic disease, illness, etc. So what I’m thinking is, I’m thinking well, mental health is the path, one of—I’m not saying it is unique—but it is the pathway, one of the pathways through which all the issues associated with documentation status, which is racism, discrimination, stigma, all that, goes through the mental health of a person, causing anxiety, depression, problems with the sleep, and others. It could even cause eating problems and them some behaviors, no? Like alcohol, tobacco, poor diet, etc. And at the end, I mean, you have a person with a chronic disease. But the difference is that as the process of—I saw a forty year old with the arthritis of a seventy year old.
RP: A forty year old?!
LVT: A forty year old with the arthritis of a seventy year old. So these types of quicker aging just because of exposure to that. So I am trying to see just the first—whatever the explanation, whole thing is. Of course I cannot do that in one dissertation, but I want to see the association between documentation status and mental health and how much really, that affects your mental health. I have, from the lit review I’ve done, I have a good evidence that there’s something going on there. Discussing a lot of anxiety, about depression, about the fear, a lot of fear related to being undocumented. How people really—and it’s even the serial deportation because of all these massive deportations and family separations that have happened in the last few years, because there is a report that shows that people are more concerned or will feel better immediately if deportation would stop, even if they don’t get citizenship. Because it’s the, it’s the vulnerability they are put at just by being undocumented. So I want to find the people that is undocumented and see how much is this causing mental health problems and then how much is it affecting their life. Because we are always exposed to stressors and we get stressed because of different things, no? But their situation is particularly hard because of all the implications of their lives as migrants. Like the pre-migration, the process of migration, and the post migration all that happens around that.
RP: Do you think that it also has to do with, like I guess, mental health, do you think it also has to do with peoples’ expectations when coming to the United States? ‘Cause I know that I have family members who came to the U.S. and they’re like, you know, “oh yea this is gonna be SO great, there’s so much money everywhere and all these things!” And then they get here and they’re like and they’re like “oh by, you know, the culture’s so different and my family’s not here with me.” And then, I know I have a couple family members who have wanted to just move back. So do you think that also plays a role in it, or…?
LVT: Yea, and I think with the men I’ve have interviewed and those in the literature, that people all over—or most of the time they, for economic reasons. And there is an expectation there like of both having a better life here but also being able to provide resources for the families that are left behind. And yea, when those expectations are not able to be met for whatever reason, there is just stress, particularly among men, although women send most of their remittances back, than men. But I think a lot of the identity of men, migrant men, is built around their role of providers. So when they are not able to get a job and get a good payment, and pass through the—then, when they disappear almost, they don’t want to talk to anybody, they don't want to talk to their family, the families think that they are having now another family or spending all the money, and when what is really happening is that they are here by themselves, depressed, without money, without jobs, especially because they’re working really seasonal. Places like this are really seasonal. In the winter, for some, they don’t have any jobs and they need to be prepared for the season, the very low season. And it’s interesting because I think it’s a little bit of denial which all humans do, even though they’ve been here for years, every winter is the same. Every winter, they are not prepared, they didn’t save enough money. But also, I think I never sat with them to ask them how much they could really save for the winter. Maybe there’s really nothing they could save. Between what they have to pay here to live and what they send back, how much can they really save? So anyhow, yea, I think all mental health issues are also related to also the expectations. And how, how much pressure is from the community of origin for them to be here making money and how, or if, the community is willing to receive them back without judging if they decided to back if they “fail.”
RP: Do you think that—has that, in your experience, has that been a problem? Of people “failing” and then going, going back. Do you think that the receiving communities are like “oh, you should have done better” or...?
LVT: I haven't seen it, but I have read it in a lot of the literature. They are afraid of not going back because they fail. But what I’ve seen is the idea of time passing by quickly because they all want to return. They all want to go back. So when and how they decide to go back, that’s the question.
RP: Interesting. So I guess to conclude, what do you think are some things that we can do, that the general population can do to help issues of mental health and also just help access in general?
LVT: Well I guess, there are several things. I mean from the microcosm, I think people can donate a little bit of their money to these clinics or programs that do work with migrants. I think medical students or providers can also donate part of their time to provide some care for these populations. Those are things that kind of add a little bit of band aids, but everything helps, I think. I think in a more general way, I would say keep advocating. Try to bring about the—or visibilize, visibilize the… that’s not a word in English… make people aware of the racism and the discrimination and how that affects certain groups of people. And speak up in making all of the spaces possible. I think, I think that’s important. So the norms are changing, right? Now, nobody would even dare to say anything about African American groups no? I mean they do, but they are careful of when they do it or how they do it. Like changing, also, the norms around other groups. And also, I’ll say make some efforts of communities to integrate the people because I think also the part of the mental health, besides what I talked about the fear and the family expectations, it's also the isolation they experience. Because there is no real community integration and I think that’s really easy to promote. People really are welcoming, say “Okay, you are part of our community now. Let’s share this space.” Instead of segregation, segregation, segregation, it’s more like wow integration. And I think that will help a lot because people will feel more welcome and that those who have felt… So I think there are several layers. The ultimate will be at the state level, they decide to provide care, right? Like in other states, California or what is it, where is Boston? Maine? Or Michigan? Some of these states that have full coverage.
RP: Oh, for everybody?
LVT: For undocumented.
RP: That’s interesting, I didn't know that.
LVT: Yea. Or even following some other models, like some European models like Germany. Germany doesn’t discriminate. Now they’re starting, but up to now. For Spain, Spain used to not discriminate based on documentation status, but now they do. So, like just don't do it, I mean for the benefit of everybody, the people would benefit. Because then the costs, the social and economic costs later are gonna be huge. People don’t see it like that. Everyone is just talking about “cost,” because it’s not the same to have some prevention care and some health education, and later deal with a chronic disease that requires medication and money spending for longer. That’s more, more. And all the mental health issues that are very hard to unthread. And you don't, North Carolina doesn’t have the psychology needed for that, so we do more community based things to address mental health issues. Because not everybody can go to therapy, that is ridiculous. It happens only in the very rich society. Yea
RP: Yea. Okay, well thank you so much, this was really helpful. Oh, it was very helpful. Thank you!
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Estudiantes; Activistas por la justicia social; Administradores de cuidado de salud
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Laura Villa Torres nació y creció en México. Estudió Sociología en la universidad y siempre ha tenido un interés en el área de sociología de la salud. Ella trabajó en Ipas en México en el tema de defensa de los derechos sexuales y reproductivos de la población joven, donde tuvo la oportunidad de colaborar con diversas instituciones púbicas, incluída la Secretaría de Salud de México. Villa Torres también fue integrante de la Coalición Internacional de Jóvenes por los Derechos Sexuales y Reproductivos con quién realizó trabajo de abogacía en las Naciones Unidas. Después de eso, se mudó a Chapel Hill, en Carolina del Norte, para continuar su trabajo con Ipas, y ahora es una estudiante de posgrado en el departamento de Comportamientos de Salud en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill. Villa Torres, con su experiencia en México, los Estados Unidos, y en las Naciones Unidas, ofrece una visión sobre la complejidad del cuidado de salud para inmigrantes en Carolina del Norte. Su investigación actual se enfoca en la salud mental de hombres jornaleros que han salido de sus hogares en Latinoamérica y ahora están viviendo en el extranjero, sin sus familias y con poco dinero. Villa Torres comparte sus opiniones en los temas del acceso de cuidado de salud y los orígenes y soluciones a estos problemas.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Laura Villa-Torres por Radha Atul Patel, 29 Marzo 2014, R-0715, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Salud; Cultura; Ciudadanía e inmigración; Programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios; Comunidades receptoras
Es: Transcripción
Radha Patel: Okay well, good afternoon. I am the Radha—I mean (laughter), the interviewer, Radha. I am interviewing Laura Villa Torres, who is a graduate student at the school of Public Health at UNC Chapel Hill. We are doing this interview in her office in Rosenau on March 29, 2014. Well, thank you so much for letting me interview you. Could you start with maybe a basic overview of your personal history and your relations and interests in health?
Laura Villa Torres: Well I come from a family from public health professions so that's how I got interested in health and public health. And yea, I think when I was about to go to college, I was deciding whether to go for medicine school or for sociology- two very different. But I really wanted to do public health so I asked my parents what could I study that I could go and do public health without studying medicine. And they said, “well you can do several things including sociology,” and that's how I decide to do sociology. So when I was in college, in Mexico it’s a bit different- you go straight to your “major,” let’s say. I did sociology for 4 years. So when I was there, I started working for a non-profit organization that’s called Ipas, which actually has the headquarters here in Chapel Hill. So I started working there and I started working on reproductive health, and the sexual and reproductive health and rights movement, and the youth movement in Mexico. And, I don't know, it just happened naturally. From then on, my college was particular in the sense that it requires you to do research instead of exams or papers. It’s divided in trimesters— quarters. And yea, you have to do research and it’s a module instead of a class. So lets say we have a module on economy. All my classes and seminars were related to economy. So after my I think 7th quarter, all my research started just gravitating towards health, so that just happened naturally. And then, I did my – you have to do in Mexico- one year of social service, meaning you work for free for the government. So I worked in the Ministry of Health. I was working on the adolescent health program and doing several things, but mainly I was trying to do all the literature review for the National Guidance for the Adolescent Health Program. And then I participated in actually developing the National program for Adolescent Sexual and Reproductive Health, but I will tell you about that later. Anyhow, so I came to work in health and then after a few years working locally and globally, I was a member of the Youth Coalition for Sexual and Reproductive Health. And that's an organization that is volunteer-based and its member-based, too. And the main objective of that organization is do advocacy at the global level. So I started working a lot at the UN and working on advocacy related to sexual and reproductive health again, including HIV, sexual violence, adolescent reproductive rights, and from there, I applied for a job in Ipas here in Chapel Hill. And that’s how I migrated. Yea, and then after working at Ipas, I decided I wanted to continue my training because I only had my Bachelor’s. I started at a different program, a master’s program on Gender and Public Policy but I couldn’t finish. It was just too much to work and study. So I decided to go back full time for schools and I was looking for schools, I was already here.
RP: In North Carolina?
LVT: In North Carolina, yea, because I was living in- I came to work for Ipas. And when I was here, everybody was telling, “Well, UNC was one of the best schools of public health, so you should apply there.” And it was kind of a dream because I thought, “it’s not gonna happen, they’re not gonna accept me.” But it happened, and I’m very happy about it.
RP: That’s great! Cool, thank you.
LVT: It’s a bit of a long story.
RP: Oh, that’s okay, that’s an awesome story. So I know that you mentioned you were doing reproductive work—of reproductive rights work in Mexico—what part of Mexico was that in?
LTV: Mainly Mexico City, but I worked in many states because we had a partnership with the Ministry of Health to work on the Adolescent Health Program and Ipas has a manual that was called “Gender and Sex, Who Cares?” and it was a training manual that taught people about gender issues. So we started using that to train health care providers in several states of Mexico. And so, we went by the people that were in charge of the of the adolescent program at the state level and we’d bring out the lesson so they both would come together and do work. It was a lot of fun and we did that for a year and a half. So I got to travel in many places. I went to Sinaloa, Sonora, Guerrero, Oaxaca, Veracruz, Puebla, Quintana Roo. I don’t know, I think I went to ten- fifteen states. There are states that I’ve only been once it was like San Luis Potosi, Zacatecas, Michoacán.
RP: Did you go to Guanajuato at all?
LVT: I’m trying to think if I went to Guanajuato. I went, but not for that. In Guanajuato, I remember they tried to ban, from the local penal code, the extension for abortion for women that have been raped. But that was like ten years ago or something like that. And we went there because we were advocating for it not to happen. So we went with the women’s movement in Guanajuato and we had a conference and so I went for that, I didn’t go for the other stuff.
RP: I know that when we went over spring break, we were tourists for a couple of days and in a lot of the churches that we went to visit, there were posters talking about abortion and showing babies. Do you find that things like that happen in other states, because I know that, well I guess Guanajuato is a very conservative state in that sense. Do you think that happens in a lot of Mexican families here in the United States as well or..?
LVT: That they have abortions, you mean? Or that they are conservative?
RP: I guess just that they have very strict views towards things like that? And so did that make your work very difficult or do you not get that sense?
LVT: No, I would say...interesting…I don’t know but I’m gonna guess. Yes, Guanajuato is one of the most conservative states and it has always been. That’s for sure. Now, I think what happened with migration is that the pressure of migration really put a very difficult situation. And you start realizing that those conservative views cannot be held because they are in detriment to yourself. For example, with the work that I’ve done here on reproductive health with Latinos. The patterns are even though they are really religious, they are sending their kids to the training, the reproductive health training. And when we ask them, “why, if you’re so religious, you’re still sending them?” And we’re very open with them. “We’re gonna talk about condoms, protection, and abortion.” And they’re like “no no, but it’s okay because I cannot talk to my kids about that because of my views. But I know they need it because I don’t want them get pregnant next year and then ruin their lives forever. Which of course a negative view of pregnancy in adolescence, and that’s also constructed, but it’s a reality that if I’m an adolescent or a young woman without the means and haven’t finished school and all that, it’s gonna be more difficult to make it. So, I think there’s a relaxation of the norm. Now, I also think that when people migrate here they start getting more and more religious because churches are a natural place to go and form communities. So I don’t know if that relaxation then again turns around after going to church and then they start becoming even more conservative again. So I think it’s a process, but it has to do with—I think migration impacts their view.
RP: Interesting. I think I’ve noticed that a lot with my parents as well. Well, this is sort of a different topic, but it seems like a lot of programs nowadays are focused on health education, like the ones you were saying. Do you think that it maybe holds a greater or lesser value than actually providing medical care? I don’t know—does that make sense?
LVT: yea well, I have my views about that. I think location is important. I think community participation is important and that people get involved in their own wellbeing, I will say instead of health care. It’s more their well-being. Like okay, let’s build safe neighborhoods, let’s have safe roads, let’s clean, let’s have our houses clean, let’s recycle, and things like that. But this approach of substituting “health care,” per say, with a physician and a nurse and people that are trained for that, with community health work. I think it’s a bit denying their right to care for people. Because there’s only so much you can get through a person that provides information. For example, I can tell you right now, “this is how you use a condom. This is how Plan B works. But if you have an infection, I cannot tell you what to do about that. But if the only thing you have related to health care at all is whatever I can provide you is information, that falls short in terms of what the people need. And you see it, like that’s what they call about the health-immigrant paradox. People come here very healthy and of course they come very healthy because they are the ones that are strong enough to migrate and they are the entrepreneurs of their families and they want to go and make a better life. Of course they are healthy. But as time passes and they start not having access to health care, ask them ten years later how many times they have been to see a doctor or a dentist, or even a nurse. They have gotten their vaccinations? They have pap smears done? A woman has to do the pap smear every two years or three years at the minimum. So, that’s gone after migration. So I think we need to keep building the issues related to education and health promotion and prevention, but not forget that access to health care is important.
RP: Thank you, that was really interesting.
LVT: Which, for example, now with the Affordable Care Act, many immigrants are out of it.
RP: Are out of it?
LVT: Yea, because that was the negotiation for signing the Affordable Care Act. Undocumented immigrants are not. But those who are documented immigrants, like people holding temporary visas, student visas, like me, and I would say even like the long term visas- the H-1Bs, which are for professionals or high-tech visas. All of those are out of the Affordable Care Act. So, we don’t have that- the ones that we have some sort of authorization to be here, we have to pay for our own health care. The ones that are undocumented, they’re gonna be the ones that have a very, very hard time- even finding an insurance that wants to SELL to them.
RP: Even if they have the means to pay?
LVT: Yea, mhm.
RP: Wow. Okay, so for students- what do they- so what did it do for North Carolina specifically? Sorry, I’m a little confused about that.
LVT: Yea, the Affordable Care Act mandates health insurance for everybody in the country. And that's why there are a lot of announcements. People have to enroll, and for people with low income, the federal government and some states will supplement the cost. And then it got rid of several things also, like the pre-existing conditions. That applies to a lot of folks too, for example.
RP: So it’s like everybody who is a citizen is guaranteed this access to health care, but people who are on different types of visas—
LVT: Yes, exactly. I think residents—permanent residents or green cards and citizens enter in the pack. And everybody else (shakes head, indicating no coverage). We see it that, I don’t know.
RP: What was it like before the Affordable Care Act for people with visas and student visas and thing like that?
LVT: It was like everybody, you just have to pay your insurance. For me, it’s gonna continue like the same. This is an example of the- it’s an example of how big changes in policy might not affect individuals directly, but affect- in general, the health of the population. Because for me, it’s the same. I mean, my life before the Affordable Care Act and after the care act remain the same. But for people that were never ever able to get insurance because of pre-existing conditions or because they didn’t have the money to pay, they aren’t gonna have health care. And that's huge. That’s huge and that has a big impact in very marginalized communities and minority communities. So, I’m not saying it’s bad but the negotiation was around immigrants.
RP: Okay, I didn’t know that. So, how are people accessing health care resources? Like for people who either are undocumented or who have these types of visas? I know that you said that you have to pay for it, and somebody else that I’m interviewing said earlier on- she said that she works at a health clinic and people pay based on their income. So how is that- do people just go to a clinic?
LVT: Yea, well, there are several things. There are—. For example for me, I just pay my health insurance but I am a student so it is the same for all over. If you go here to student health, you don’t even have to pay a co-payment or anything. Now, I recently have a more serious issue and the insurance pays most of it, but I still, I now have a debt of one thousand dollars. Just because of the co-payments and the insurance doesn’t cover all of it. I meant that’s gonna still happen to everybody. Now, for people that are on the- and I think everybody that has a, I want to say, maybe the professional visas and student visas, I’m pretty sure people have insurance. Now for temporary visas like the farmworker..?
RP: H-2A?
LVT: H-2A, yea. The H-2A or the H-1B2 or something like that. I don’t know if everybody has health insurance or care of some sort of—. There are federally qualified health centers- you’ve heard about those. So those centers are community centers that are federally funded and those are the ones that provide income-based costs or scale of payment. So a lot of people go there because they receive everybody, without needing documentation. But the problem with those is that they are really saturated. And there are priorities— children and women have priority and men don’t have really, so they feel they don’t have access. So those are one option, and they are great. And actually, they say that with the Affordable Care Act, everybody is going to have insurance, there is not point to keep the federally qualified health centers open, so that’s a problem because those are the centers that cover the health care of the undocumented. And also, the, some of these federally qualified health center also receive funding for farmworkers’ health. So I know that one in Fuquay, they have the farmworker clinic Thursday afternoons. And they go and pick up- like the farmworker has to tell whoever in the camp, “I need to see the doctor.” They make an appointment, somebody picks them up and takes them to the clinic and drives them back. I think the volunteers that do that, just to transfer people from camp to camp to the clinic and return them, they are very good. They are doing—because they are volunteers and they drive people around. But again, there is only one place during the week and it’s only once.
RP: Do you think that—does that happen at most farm work organization or is it just a few?
LVT: I don't know if it’s everybody.
RP: ‘Cause we had guest speakers come into one of my classes last year and she was talking about how, for people who are undocumented, especially farmworkers. And they’re working very long hours, and they say they feel like if they step up and ask their employers for better working conditions or for health care, for those issues and they will report them and they get deported and things like that?
LVT: Yea, we were saying yesterday, because we went to a talk, that they—kind of a benefit system that reproduces itself very easily because people is afraid, they need the income, they don’t pick. The others have all the power over the other people. They will never improve the conditions—there’s no incentive to improve conditions. And even though there are labor laws and I would say even human rights treaties, although that is more vague in the United Stated, but they are still there, there’s no way to enforce those. Like whatever happens inside of those camps, it is a land of nobody. And, yea, I don’t see that as a priority of the immediate state level government or the federal government because if you really want to deport undocumented people, like the federal government does, then you go to the camps. Go and see how they’re living and take them out. There are people who have been almost like slaves because they are there without willing to be there but there is no escape. They have taken away their papers, they live in so remote areas, they don’t know where to go. And there is this story of – it’s in video. They took them on a bus to a Wal-Mart, but they would close all the doors of the Wal-Mart, let them shop, and then put them back in the bus and take them to the camp. But somehow, two of them escaped and that’s how people started talking about this almost new way of slavery. So, it’s terrible. And they don’t have any power. And at the same time, it’s like if there is some type of internal organization, what else can they do? Researchers, we can advocate for them. We can put out research that shows the conditions, but so what, then—who has the power? That’s the big question.
RP: Do you think that—how big of a role do you think the public perception of Latino people and of immigrants, how big of a role do you think that plays in I guess affecting what politicians want and what their priorities are? Do you think that’s a big role, or?
LVT: Well I think that, well I think that what we were saying yesterday was that there’s symbolic violence and the materialization of the suffering of bodies. Like the certain groups of people are like, “oh well, shame, but that’s how it is. These people are born to be that and suffer.” I mean I keep reading more and more lately about the black slavery and how similar the stories are and the replacement of one group for another. Because for me, there is a lot of similarity with the African American slavery produced. And then they sort of made segregation. So this again is not recognition of full citizenship, which translates into not having rights. And the ones that are “the others,” and the separation and segregation. And that's happening now with Latinos. And there is a construction about Latino migrants were equal to migrant workers, equals undocumented, equals illegal. So you don’t want anything to do with any of those people, no? And at the same time, there is deep, I don’t know the word, but like, “Oh, Mexican food is great!” and which is like, what are you talking about? Don’t you… I mean, there’s no coherence. But this is what you are as a citizen of this country that is putting so much suffering on these people. I’m sometimes very radical. (laughter).
RP: No, that’s completely fine! Okay, well I guess, do you think that how the people think is actually going to affect how the politicians want to enforce rules? Like do you think that if more people were like “hey!” If more people were standing up, if more people were advocating, do you think that the people would, amend the Affordable Care Act to make it more inviting or…I don't know?
LVT: Well, I think that for the Affordable Care Act, it’s not gonna happen soon. But, again, I was thinking for these kinds of problems, they really kind of need a revolution. Nothing that’s kind of guns or anything like that, but there’s only so much that we can do, for example, from the academia or the research to show, show the evidence, right, of things that are happening. Because the politicians can say, “well yea, but it’s not our priority, our priorities are this or that,” from both the federal and the local or state government. So for me, it’s the people getting organized and start saying the things, or telling the things as they are. Like, “look, we’re second class people. We’re the ones that move big machinery. Without us, it’s not gonna hold too long.” And also, the historical relationship with Latin America—It’s like denying all that tradition because sometimes North Americans, here and Canada, they kind of deny that they live in a continent that is, that has a lot of history together, no? And a lot of the economic benefits and the solid economy of the United States and Canada rely on many things that happen in Latin America. So it’s like, why cannot we just share a little bit of the cake? It’s not that we’re asking—and, this para—this brings a little bit of paranoia. Like “if we open the borders, everybody is gonna move here.” I don’t think so. It’s actually the opposite.
RP: You mean..?
LVT: People have been forced to move here with their families because of the hard boarding. Like the hard borders and how if you cannot cross the border… but if they were able to just come work and return, safely return, no? Because now the problems of the violence and other problems. If they can come work, safely return, families wouldn’t come here all together. Some might, I mean I’m not saying that it’s not going to happen, but it’s not gonna happen in these huge numbers that people think happen. I mean, it’s more circular, people coming and going. But for example, one movement the… going back to your question, the Dreamers, I think, is one example of getting organized and getting the word out. It’s like, we were raised here, we were grown up here, what are—I mean, what is our future and who’s in charge of us? Because, kind of, “we don't have states,” no? Nobody—their countries of origin have forgotten about them and the country where they grew up is not recognizing them. But the arguments that they bring out are very strong. And you even see some parallels with other movements, like the LGBT movement, no? Like coming out of the closet, it’s kind of this idea, “well, I’m unashamed and I’m gonna disclose that I am undocumented.” That’s very powerful. That’s very powerful. So I think that at least that, even though the Dreamer- the Dream Act hasn’t passed fully, it has created change because I believe that promoted the DACA, the stopped deportation of the students. And I think, their arguments are less challenged, even by conservative people. Because they are really substantiated or based on what people are so proud of the so-called “American Values,” no? which is entrepreneurship. And we’ve been studying where, how workers, you know? How can you go against that? It's almost going against yourself. So, I think the, the Dream Act, or the Dreamers are an example of a movement. Now, will the parents benefit from that? The parents of those dreamers? I don’t think so. They’re still seen as the “bad” migrants, no? the ones that crosses illegally, etc.
RP: I don’t know— have you had a lot of experience with people trying to access health care? I’m not sure? I know that you mentioned earlier that you worked with some of the…
LVT: Community workers. Yea. Not that, I mean, what they did was sort of refer people to health care or health services. But I was not the one referring people, no. But I was working with the promotoras do to that
RP: The promotoras?
LVT: Mhm, the community health workers.
RP: Ohh, okay.
LVT: Aha, yea sorry.
RP: Oh no no, that's okay. I wasn’t sure. Okay so I had a question. During class, one of my classmates this year said that he recently travelled to Texas and was talking to some of people that he met there about health care and things like that. And some of them didn’t really notice that they didn’t have access. And the people we was talking to were undocumented, so do you think that, I don’t know ‘cause, I’m involve with SLI. I don’t know if you know what that is but it’s a mentorship program for high school students and I was talking to my mentee’s mom and she, yea so she—oh she’s the one that works at the health clinic. And she was like, “Yea I mean, I don’t really see a problem. It’s based on income and people get what they need.” So I mean, I’ve heard two very different sides of the story and so I don’t know, what do you think about that?
LVT: Do you mean that it doesn’t seem to be a problem really?
RP: Oh, well that's what I’ve heard very recently, like from a couple of people and I was really curious because I would think that it was a big problem.
LVT: It’s actually a huge problem. It, it’s like, somebody was here two days ago and she leads a big…she’s a super person. She has created the Ventanillas de Salud, the Mexican consulate, the binational health week that now is like multinational because it’s in the U.S. and in the countries of origin. But anyway, she said that day that health is more a commodity than a right.so if you have money, you have health, right? Because even though these community health clinics are income-based, one, you still have to pay. And in general twenty dollars is not a lot, but to some I mean, just to us as students is like twenty dollars is like “uh okay” (laughter). So that’s one. Whereas in other countries, in or course Europe and Canada, but I’m mostly talking about Latin American countries or African countries, where health has been recognized as a right, people don’t have to put any money out of their pockets to pay for health care. And that’s based on the different allocation of taxation. The taxes from marginal locations to health care. In this country, most of the money goes for military purposes. I mean, with a little bit of that money to health care, people wouldn’t even need to have health insurance. I mean, everything would be covered. That’s one. And also who has access to these community health centers. Even though they exist, they don’t cover everybody. And for example, these guys that I work with, they were saying that the waiting time to get an appointment there is at least six months.
RP: Wow.
LVT: So imagine you go with diarrhea, fever, things that need immediate care. Or you broke your something or you have a cut. There’s no option, so that's why people go a lot to the emergency room. And you know how expensive it is, the emergency room, right? So, and people get into that getting to debt that is health related debt. I cannot ima—I mean it’s counted up so quickly. So quickly, you start to have, like I told you, that one thousand dollar debt because of the co-payment here and—. So, I think that’s an issue. Now, the other thing is it’s true, there might be some cultural things that—I am less and less attached to that reason—but the main reason is because they didn’t go to health, they didn’t have access to care in their countries of origin. Or they didn’t used to go to the doctor in their countries of origin, so when they come here, it’s not something that they lack because they never did. But I have—we will need to explore that more. Like what were their health practices before coming. But at least, I’m sure they had vaccinations. That—I mean every country in Latin America has very good vaccination records. I’m sure they went to see the doctor at least once. So, I think it’s a big issue. Now the other is maybe how people feel about themselves and if they are entitled to health care. You know?
RP: What do you mean by that?
LVT: Like, for example, if they feel, “Well, I am undocumented. It’s okay that I don’t have health care.” So, it’s not a problem, so maybe like, okay. And because they are undocumented, they expect the worst. “Yea, it’s okay I gain less money. It’s okay I don’t have holidays. It’s okay I don’t have health care because I am undocumented.” So there is all this stereotyping of the labeling, the separation, and then the self-stigma, or the self-discrimination or the, yea, that you are not entitled to anything because of your condition. So, I don’t know if that’s also going on in their heads, like “it’s okay because I am undocumented.” Instead of thinking that “I am a human being. I have rights. And I am not doing anything wrong, I just want to have a better life, as anybody else.” Yea, so I think it’s a problem, it’s just from what people say.
RP: Okay, interesting. Have you noticed any—or in your—what is your current research that you’ve been doing?
LVT: I am working on well, three things. One is how I’m going to get more involved in community-based. The other is we’re planning to do an education program on use of personal protection equipment for day laborers because they reduce the risk for accidents. And the other, which is my dissertation, is looking at mental health of undocumented men. I’m gonna focus on men. So, that’s what I’m working on.
RP: Have you, so have you noticed—I know you’ve been working with a lot of laborers—do you work with both agricultural and construction?
LVT: No, just day laborers. No farmworkers.
RP: Oh, okay. Well never mind then. Could you tell me a little bit more about the mental health perspective? I don’t really know much about that.
LVT: Yea, well, I wanted to do migration. So, because we’re in public health, they’re sort of like what are the health implications of what you want to study. I kept thinking like people who cut the, what we call distal outcomes, like things that happen later in life. Let’s say diabetes or heart disease or hypertension. So when you think about that, you almost just think like okay, almost like everybody’s gonna have that. You’re natural and you’re aging and you’re gonna get some age, but that’s gonna happen to you.
RP: Like things like glasses?
LVT: Yes, exactly, vision. Anyhow, but there are many studies showing that there’s people that age faster and it’s related to of course the genetics, but also the exposition to risks and harms and things like that. So that’s called allostatic load, like the wear and tear of the body.
RP: Allostatic?
LVT: Allostatic Load. So there has been some research done about how things like discrimination, stigma, go through your mind, of course, and activate certain hormones in your body that, if they stay activated, they cause aging faster. And that process of aging introduces into chronic disease, illness, etc. So what I’m thinking is, I’m thinking well, mental health is the path, one of—I’m not saying it is unique—but it is the pathway, one of the pathways through which all the issues associated with documentation status, which is racism, discrimination, stigma, all that, goes through the mental health of a person, causing anxiety, depression, problems with the sleep, and others. It could even cause eating problems and them some behaviors, no? Like alcohol, tobacco, poor diet, etc. And at the end, I mean, you have a person with a chronic disease. But the difference is that as the process of—I saw a forty year old with the arthritis of a seventy year old.
RP: A forty year old?!
LVT: A forty year old with the arthritis of a seventy year old. So these types of quicker aging just because of exposure to that. So I am trying to see just the first—whatever the explanation, whole thing is. Of course I cannot do that in one dissertation, but I want to see the association between documentation status and mental health and how much really, that affects your mental health. I have, from the lit review I’ve done, I have a good evidence that there’s something going on there. Discussing a lot of anxiety, about depression, about the fear, a lot of fear related to being undocumented. How people really—and it’s even the serial deportation because of all these massive deportations and family separations that have happened in the last few years, because there is a report that shows that people are more concerned or will feel better immediately if deportation would stop, even if they don’t get citizenship. Because it’s the, it’s the vulnerability they are put at just by being undocumented. So I want to find the people that is undocumented and see how much is this causing mental health problems and then how much is it affecting their life. Because we are always exposed to stressors and we get stressed because of different things, no? But their situation is particularly hard because of all the implications of their lives as migrants. Like the pre-migration, the process of migration, and the post migration all that happens around that.
RP: Do you think that it also has to do with, like I guess, mental health, do you think it also has to do with peoples’ expectations when coming to the United States? ‘Cause I know that I have family members who came to the U.S. and they’re like, you know, “oh yea this is gonna be SO great, there’s so much money everywhere and all these things!” And then they get here and they’re like and they’re like “oh by, you know, the culture’s so different and my family’s not here with me.” And then, I know I have a couple family members who have wanted to just move back. So do you think that also plays a role in it, or…?
LVT: Yea, and I think with the men I’ve have interviewed and those in the literature, that people all over—or most of the time they, for economic reasons. And there is an expectation there like of both having a better life here but also being able to provide resources for the families that are left behind. And yea, when those expectations are not able to be met for whatever reason, there is just stress, particularly among men, although women send most of their remittances back, than men. But I think a lot of the identity of men, migrant men, is built around their role of providers. So when they are not able to get a job and get a good payment, and pass through the—then, when they disappear almost, they don’t want to talk to anybody, they don't want to talk to their family, the families think that they are having now another family or spending all the money, and when what is really happening is that they are here by themselves, depressed, without money, without jobs, especially because they’re working really seasonal. Places like this are really seasonal. In the winter, for some, they don’t have any jobs and they need to be prepared for the season, the very low season. And it’s interesting because I think it’s a little bit of denial which all humans do, even though they’ve been here for years, every winter is the same. Every winter, they are not prepared, they didn’t save enough money. But also, I think I never sat with them to ask them how much they could really save for the winter. Maybe there’s really nothing they could save. Between what they have to pay here to live and what they send back, how much can they really save? So anyhow, yea, I think all mental health issues are also related to also the expectations. And how, how much pressure is from the community of origin for them to be here making money and how, or if, the community is willing to receive them back without judging if they decided to back if they “fail.”
RP: Do you think that—has that, in your experience, has that been a problem? Of people “failing” and then going, going back. Do you think that the receiving communities are like “oh, you should have done better” or...?
LVT: I haven't seen it, but I have read it in a lot of the literature. They are afraid of not going back because they fail. But what I’ve seen is the idea of time passing by quickly because they all want to return. They all want to go back. So when and how they decide to go back, that’s the question.
RP: Interesting. So I guess to conclude, what do you think are some things that we can do, that the general population can do to help issues of mental health and also just help access in general?
LVT: Well I guess, there are several things. I mean from the microcosm, I think people can donate a little bit of their money to these clinics or programs that do work with migrants. I think medical students or providers can also donate part of their time to provide some care for these populations. Those are things that kind of add a little bit of band aids, but everything helps, I think. I think in a more general way, I would say keep advocating. Try to bring about the—or visibilize, visibilize the… that’s not a word in English… make people aware of the racism and the discrimination and how that affects certain groups of people. And speak up in making all of the spaces possible. I think, I think that’s important. So the norms are changing, right? Now, nobody would even dare to say anything about African American groups no? I mean they do, but they are careful of when they do it or how they do it. Like changing, also, the norms around other groups. And also, I’ll say make some efforts of communities to integrate the people because I think also the part of the mental health, besides what I talked about the fear and the family expectations, it's also the isolation they experience. Because there is no real community integration and I think that’s really easy to promote. People really are welcoming, say “Okay, you are part of our community now. Let’s share this space.” Instead of segregation, segregation, segregation, it’s more like wow integration. And I think that will help a lot because people will feel more welcome and that those who have felt… So I think there are several layers. The ultimate will be at the state level, they decide to provide care, right? Like in other states, California or what is it, where is Boston? Maine? Or Michigan? Some of these states that have full coverage.
RP: Oh, for everybody?
LVT: For undocumented.
RP: That’s interesting, I didn't know that.
LVT: Yea. Or even following some other models, like some European models like Germany. Germany doesn’t discriminate. Now they’re starting, but up to now. For Spain, Spain used to not discriminate based on documentation status, but now they do. So, like just don't do it, I mean for the benefit of everybody, the people would benefit. Because then the costs, the social and economic costs later are gonna be huge. People don’t see it like that. Everyone is just talking about “cost,” because it’s not the same to have some prevention care and some health education, and later deal with a chronic disease that requires medication and money spending for longer. That’s more, more. And all the mental health issues that are very hard to unthread. And you don't, North Carolina doesn’t have the psychology needed for that, so we do more community based things to address mental health issues. Because not everybody can go to therapy, that is ridiculous. It happens only in the very rich society. Yea
RP: Yea. Okay, well thank you so much, this was really helpful. Oh, it was very helpful. Thank you!
Dublin Core
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Title
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R-0715 -- Villa-Torres, Laura.
Description
An account of the resource
Laura Villa Torres was born and raised in Mexico. She studied Sociology as an undergrad and she has always had an interest in Sociology of Health. She worked at Ipas in Mexico on the topic of youth sexual and reproductive rights advocacy, where she had the opportunity to collaborate with diverse public institutions, including the Mexican Ministry of Health. Villa Torres was also a member of the Youth Coalition for Sexual and Reproductive Rights, with whom she did advocacy work at the United Nations. After that, she moved to Chapel Hill, in North Carolina, to continue her work at Ipas, and now she is a graduate student in the Health Behavior department at UNC Chapel Hill. Villa Torres, with her experience in Mexico, United States and in the United Nations, offers an overview of the complexity of the healthcare for immigrants in North Carolina. Her current research focuses on the mental health of day laborer men that have left their homes in Latin America and are now living abroad, without their families and with little resources. Villa Torres shares her thoughts on the themes of access to healthcare, and the associated problems' origins and solutions.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
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29 Mar 2014
Format
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R0715_Audio.mp3
Publisher
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/20970">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/66599da21883349a7ef264cbed87ae01.mp3
9be552f1c63b6a794c6ca5e2aadf219b
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/d7e887c307a249d1ce25acd9587b4b86.pdf
b423e11433924398411225befa566dfc
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0696
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
09 April 2014
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Seymour, Robert E.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Clergy; Health services administrators
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1925
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Male
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
United States
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Chapel Hill -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Hogenkamp, Danny.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Reverend Robert Seymour sat on the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Hospital Board of Directors from 1980-1984 and after that was an active lobbyist for improving healthcare accessibility in the Chapel Hill, North Carolina Community. The Reverend is noted for his knowledge of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Hospital system and is often a critic of how the Hospital’s internal structure prevents them from following through on their mandate of being an accessible, public hospital. This interview is part of Danny Hogenkamp's ongoing investigation of how the Affordable Care Act affects the undocumented Latino population and how the undocumented Latino population consequently affects local hospitals. This interview, in particular, was aimed at discussing the ramifications of large uninsured populations—specifically, how a hospital like the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill's is dealing with the current medical finance climate after North Carolina’s rejection of Medicaid, and the Affordable Care Act’s rejection of healthcare for the undocumented.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Robert Seymour by Danny Hogenkamp, 09 April 2014, R-0696, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/20195
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Citizenship and immigration; Community and social services and programs; Health; Healthcare; Receiving communities
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Danny Hogenkamp: Hello, I am Danny Hogenkamp and today I am interviewing Mr. Robert Seymour in 219 Carol Woods Retirement Community in Chapel Hill North Carolina. We will be talking about the administration at UNC Hospitals and how the possibly deal with finances and, yea, so I am going to start the interview. Thank you so much for speaking with me today, and I guess my first question, for what I want to know, is what position did you hold in the hospital, and what role did you hold working in the UNC hospitals?
Robert Seymour: I have to backtrack a little. I regret that Florence Silbus (adjusting how he holds the mic). I regret that Florence Silbus is not available for you to interview her because my role at UNC Hospitals was initiated through my contact with her. Florence Silbus had a dual appointment with the School of Social Work and the School of Medicine and she was very much aware of the, what she judges to be the failure of UNC Hospitals to measure up to their stated mission. And, she felt so strongly about this that she circulated a petition in Chapel Hill, she got over 2,000 people.
DH: When was this?
RS: This was, in 1980. She circulated this petition that people who felt there was (what) at UNC Hospitals, that the UNC Hospital was acting more like a private hospital than like a public hospital— to whom they were responsible, the people of North Carolina. And, she gave this petition to the Chancellor, at that time, who was Erskine Bowles. Subsequently, I received a telephone call from Bill Roper, who was the current Executive of UNC Hospitals saying that he had been instructed by the Chancellor to appoint someone from the community to the board. This was one way of having a person on the board aware of all that was happening there, and also, a contact person on the board for people in the community, like Florence, who felt that things were not as they should be. That led to an interesting conversation. I said, “Mr. Roper, you know that I am 80 years old”. Then he said “yes I know you are 80 years old but I sense that you are functioning fairly well”. I said, “You do also know that I signed this petition that perhaps is circulating in the community”. He said, “Yes. I am aware of that”. And I said, “How long is the term?”. And, they said “4 years” and I said, “I’ll make a deal with you. If you keep me alive for 4 years, I’ll do it”. And, I am now 89 so he kept his part of the problem. (Laughing)
DH: Alright. So you served on the Board for 4 years?
RS: For 4 years.
DH: From when?
RS: From 1980 to 1984.
DH: Ok.
RS: And that was, a time when the board was very sensitive to some of the criticisms that had come from the community. It was also a time when Bill Roper needed to have a re-evaluation of his work to get a new extended contract in his job. I was asked to be on the committee that brought in a special consultant to evaluate the work of Bill Roper as the CEO, and it turned out that this person brought in was a personal friend of Bill Ropers (laughs) so the end result was pretty well anticipated from the word go. But in any case, there was one singular thing that happened. One of the things that the consultant pointed out was that when people call the hospital to ask for an appointment the recorded message ended with “and bring cash when you come”.
DH: Must have turned a lot of people away.
RS: And she (the consultant) said that this may have been a turn off to poor people or people who may have been hesitant about coming to the hospital for revealing who they were as an undocumented person. So in response to that, they got the panel to change the message. Also, the issue of large bonuses to top administrative officials was something else. It was a thorn in the flesh for a lot of folks. Why should these people be getting such huge bonuses? Then Erskine Bowles ordered that that practice seek for the top administrative people in the society. That at most turned out to be a symbolic gesture because of course what was done was to do away with the bonuses and to increase the salaries (laughing). I must say, I have a very positive impression of the careful work that is going on at the hospital and the work of the healthcare board. It is a large board made up of a lot of people including the person or whatever he is called of the university.
DH: Tom Ross?
RS: No, I am talking about the man that has gone to Louisville.
DH: Who?
RS: Not Tom Ross. He is the President of the whole UNC University System. The man, the Chancellor of Chapel Hill.
DH: Oh, the, Holden Thorpe.
RS: Holden Thorpe, Holden Thorpe was on the board?
DH: He still is?
RS: No he is gone.
DH: He is gone now? But he was there when you were on the board?
RS: Yes. But most of the people on the board were people from outside— and most of them were people who were presidents of bank or industry, carrying very much a point of view that would not have automatically made them sympathetic to some of the issues that were on the table.
DH: So they were pretty biased towards corporate interests?
RS: Yes, that’s right. I was required to be, able to be on the board and designated as a community representative, and this was made public, and I would occasionally get people who wanted to have a gripe against the hospital or a hospital bill or something. They would call me. And, I would in turn share it with the Vice President of Public Relations in the hospital who would usually succeed in smoothing over things. For example, there was one very bad situation where a patient in Apex had such a big hospital bill that he was selling his house to pay off his hospital bill. And when that fact became known, the hospital quickly responded and deleted the cost of his bill so that they could save his house.
DH: Yea. Ok. So one of my big interests is what happens when, because this happens all the time especially with the undocumented population. They go into the hospital because they have an emergency, maybe they have a heart attack. And so, you know, the hospitals don’t ask questions, they wheel them into the emergency room, they give them this emergency service, could cost, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars. And then at the end, you know, like can you pay? And if the person cant pay, how does that get paid for because it’s not like the cost disappears.
RS: It is paid for by the excessive bills of those that can pay, pay. Yes. That is why hospital bills for those that could pay got to be so large, because we were subsidizing those that could not pay. And how well do you know Piedmont Health Center?
DH: I am pretty aware of it. I have looked at it a lot.
RS: It is a federal clinic in Chapel Hill and several neighboring counties. They are owned by a man named Brian Tunney, T-U-N-N-E-Y. And I think he is a person to who you should speak. Because I think low income persons generally tend to go to Piedmont Health Center. The word is out that this is the place for primary care if you don’t have any money or if you are undocumented. And I think there was a gentleman’s agreement. The hospital could refer primary care patients to Piedmont and Piedmont in return for crisis situations and surgery, would refer them to the hospital. So there was a working relationship there. Beyond that, I really am not personally aware of the problem as it is experienced by the undocumented population.
DH: Yea. It’s. I guess the best way to quickly describe it is that they just don’t have healthcare.
RS: That’s right. And they are afraid to come for healthcare to fail the question or to reveal that they are undocumented.
DH: Exactly. The guy I just interviewed yesterday who has some type of visa, lives in a house, with like 5 other undocumented friends. He is a young man…
RS: That itself is breaking the law. Chapel Hill has a law that says only four persons that are not related can live in the house. If it’s the five, they are breaking the law.
DH: Why is that, by the way?
RS: Ask the town board by the way.
DH: I am breaking the law.
RS: (Laughing). Don’t worry, I won’t report you.
DH: Please don’t. Please don’t. So, yea. All of these undocumented people he lives with, even when there are emergency situations where they should go to the hospital, they don’t go because what happened to two of his friends in the past is that they went to hospital, they got emergency care, and then as soon as their care was done, and they were well enough to be discharged, the immigration people were sitting right at the door.
RS: I really wish I was more aware of that personally because that is something that…
DH: No, it’s alright. I was looking to you to describe some of the hospital situations.
RS: Yes.
DH: I want to go back to something you said earlier. Piedmont Health Centers. Ok, so can you elaborate more on the structure and what…
RS: It is primarily a federally funded clinic.
DH: What type of funding is that? DSH funding?
RS: Federal government.
DH: Ok. What do they classify the spending as?
RS: I am not sure of the technology. That’s is why I think you should speak to Brian on that. He is the CEO, Brian Tonney, if I am remembering T-O-N-N-E-Y, Tonney.
DH: Ok, cool. So the Piedmont Health Center.
RS: He is still there.
DH: Ok, just as far as the health community in Chapel Hill.
RS: I think he could tell you more about the undocumented community.
DH: No, I will look into that. I have to go back and type this all out so I will definitely go back, listen to his information and try and contact him.
RS: This is an aside, but I think it will give you an illustration of what can happen. UNC Hospitals is supposed to be a public hospital, and that puts it in a special category of having an obligation of having to provide care to whomever needs it in North Carolina. UNC healthcare purchased a private hospital in Raleigh, Rex Hospital in Raleigh. And, my question was, if UNC purchased a private hospital in Raleigh with tax funds, why is it not also a public hospital?
DH: Is the one in Raleigh not a public hospital?
RS: It’s not a public hospital; they don’t have the same mandate to take care of the poor. And, it’s sort of a cash cow for UNC Hospitals.
DH: That’s interesting.
RS: Yea. Now there is a legal relationship there that has made Rex Hospital a private hospital owned by a public hospital. And, I think something is wrong with that picture.
DH: So, this mandate you’re talking about, just like getting back to how it would affect the poor populations in the community. So you are saying that UNC has this mandate, and Rex doesn’t. So how does that manifest itself on the ground when an undocumented person comes in?
RS: I think it manifests itself by not feeling the same obligation to take care of as many people who are uninsured, who can’t pay. Whereas Wake Hospital, across town, is a county owned hospital. My son is a physician there, and he says that Wake Hospital has a huge intake of uninsured people coming from all over Eastern North Carolina.
DH: Oh. Ok.
RS: And they are showing a deficit at this point.
DH: That is interesting because that is actually one of the things I am researching. Do you know, I am sure you have kept up on the Affordable Care Act?
RS: Oh yes.
DH: Ok. So the Affordable Care Act is obviously assuming that there are going to be less uninsured people. So they are cutting Discretionary Spending for Hospitals, DSH funding. I don’t know if you have ever heard that word get thrown around, but that is this giant hospital slush fund that pays hospitals for their deficits they ring up and for paying Medicaid patients and for uninsured patients. And, so that slush fund is getting smaller year by year under the Affordable Care Act because they are assuming the uninsured population is going to go down. But, in North Carolina, the state decided not to expand Medicaid.
RS: Medicaid. Yea, and they are getting more and more criticism about that, and I think the pressure will still be on until they move.
DH: And the other thing, the kicker, is the huge undocumented population. So, the Federal Government is thinking, “Hey, the number of uninsured will go down”. But actually, in North Carolina, there is no Medicaid expansion and we still have a ton of these undocumented immigrants and who can’t get healthcare. So can you talk a little bit about the deficit that is created at the hospital that your son works at?
RS: Well, I really can’t say much more than I said. Have you read the paper today?
DH: I have not read the paper today.
RS: You should see one of the lead pages in the New York Times is a revelation about how much doctors are being paid from Medicare. And, it turns out that there are many doctors who are being paid as much as ten million dollars a year by the Medicaid system.
DH: Really?
RS: Yes. And, it’s in the news today.
DH: Because it was always...
RS: I think I may still have the paper. I can give it to you.
DH: But in the past, people thought that doctors who treated Medicaid patients didn’t receive that much money?
RS: That’s right. And obviously that’s not the case. People know how to work the system. Yes. There was great shock when they made these figures public, because no one thought that doctors could be so rich from Medicaid. But, its happening all over the country.
DH: Can I check this to make sure it is still recording?
RS: I really think that that is essentially about all I can share with you unless you have some specific questions.
DH: I do have some more specific questions. I was just trying to get a background for what you have been working on, what I guess you have been working in. So you were on the UNC Healthcare Executive Board for what years?
RS: I was on the UNC Healthcare Board from 1980-1984.
DH: Ok. But Holden Thorpe was on the board then?
RS: Yes.
DH: Because he was a professor here?
RS: We he was the CEO of UNC. He was the Chancellor of UNC Chapel Hill. Ross was the head of the whole University System in the state and Thorpe was in charge of the Chapel Hill campus.
DH: Ok.
RS: I think the word is Chancellor, isn’t it?
DH: Yea. Chancellor. Ok. So, just some specific things. When you are at a board meeting, do they discuss finances?
RS: Oh Yes.
DH: Can you just.
RS: There are many committees that meet simultaneously, and I was never that close to the Finance Committee, but the final budgets always came to the whole board. And, money was always a concern—the bottom line. And, there wasn’t much transparency between consistency from one hospital to another about surgeries and how much you pay for it. A recent study revealed that you could have a colonoscopy for as little as $200 or $10,000 depending on which hospital you went to.
DH: Wow.
RS: So, the disparity of costs, but the public doesn’t know that. So with the Affordable Care Act, the public needs to know in advance how much money is required for this procedure, that procedure or another. Not that you intend to go shopping when you are sick, you just think of going to the nearest hospital.
DH: Ok so the finances. When they make the budget, does it just come out even? Or do they keep a surplus? Or do they run a deficit?
RS: Oh, they keep a surplus. Yea, they have enough surplus to purchase Rex Hospital in Raleigh (laughing).
DH: Do you think that is an every year thing? Or is that just an 80’s thing? Because 80-84, that was a good economic time.
RS: I really cannot remember or speak within the authority on that but I can tell you that the concern was always cost. You need to look around Chapel Hill, and everywhere you will look, you will see the outreach of UNC Healthcare. And, that’s the really the whole hospital system that looks like a giant corporation. That kind of mentality is very much in the forefront of the management of our healthcare system.
DH: Yea. Ok. So, the board, I want to talk about lobbying. Because one way people have talked about fixing, or maybe re-expanding Medicaid in North Carolina, or maybe trying to get some sort of healthcare to the undocumented, is through this huge hospital lobbying power. So, do you have people on the board that would lobby, like for changes in policies and laws?
RS: I don’t remember anything specific like that.
DH: Ok, but did you have, was there a makeup of people with political influence?
RS: Well, I can tell you that my primary focus for the board was concern for the rapidly growing senior population and also the emergence of the Affordable Care Act. The hospital was projecting population statistics and possible growing deficit and a major concern was that the population in North Carolina was rapidly aging now that the Boomers have come on board. And so how does this affect the hospitals in terms of its potential deficit? Those were the types of questions that were frequently asked.
DH: Do you think that was another reason they were raising costs?
RS: Probably. Also, another concern that I have had. And, this may be of interest to you. I retired 26 years ago and quickly became involved in issues affecting older people, working with the department on aging. And, we succeeded in getting the county commissioners built here and in Hillsborough. Have you seen these?
DH: Uh. I think I have seen the one on Chapel Hill.
RS: It’s on Homestead Road. It bears my name.
DH: Really? I guess I had never connected the dots. Wow.
RS: Yes. And it’s because I harassed the county commissioner for twenty years to build it. Because that’s, see, the healthcare of seniors is to some degree, dependent on nutrition and socialization. And the Senior Center serves meals to a lot of low income seniors. And it is a place where older people who live alone can come to have socialization. And that is totally separate from the hospital but from having been on the board of the hospital, I was able to advocate that the Gerontology part of the Hospital sponsor the geriatric evaluations at the Senior Center. But, that took place for about five years and now we have trouble finding enough funding to pay for it. But, we have a wellness center as a part of the Senior Center. And, we frequently refer people from the Senior Center to the hospital. Now that the concern I had as a member of the board was that many. Incidentally, now Bill Roper is not just the head of the UNC Hospital System but he is also the Dean of the Medical School. He wears two hats. So, one concern that I had had, was that many medical students do not have a very good image of the senior population in our culture, because the seniors that they see in their medical education are seniors that are ill and disabled and, an experiment. What percentage of seniors do you think are in nursing homes?
DH: Well, I don’t know. If I had to guess I would say like 40%, 50%.
RS: Five percent, five percent.
DH: Why is that?
RS: Well, it’s that people have a stereotype image of seniors. I’m 89 years old and I am living independently. I’m not in the hospital. I’m not in an assisted care community. People are living longer. But, most Medical Students would have given the answer that you have given. But, the reality is by far the most number of seniors are living an independent life. In Chapel Hill, we have over 10,000 seniors. We have more seniors than children in the public school system. So, I succeeded in getting the Medical School to start a new program requiring first year medical system to be teamed up with people like me and to make six visits in the course of their freshman year to understand the senior experience and to realize that their career will require some gerontology. Any doctor in the future, should know that seniors require a special dimension of their education. But, the curriculum sometimes does not affect that need.
DH: Yea. This is actually really important, because you said the baby boomers are getting older, and we are witnessing that right now. But, as you know, the Hispanic population boom began in the eighties, and like they are all around their fifties, all the people that came when the population exploded are around fifty. So we have all these undocumented, and some documented, Hispanic people that are about to become a huge part of the…
RS: That’s right. You might want to go to the Senior Center and interview the person that is responsible for the Wellness part of the center. And, you would have a visual impression of one dimension of medical care that is rapidly becoming a priority in the healthcare system. Not only the poor, but aging affects everyone. Nobody escapes aging as they live.
DH: So the Wellness Center, hypothetically if I was an undocumented immigrant and I went to the Wellness Center. How would that work?
DH: Well, I don’t think anyone would ever ask for your identification at the Senior Center. Maybe if you were referred to the hospital, for special needs, and that may be another situation where it could be revealed.
DH: But the Wellness Center would provide, is it subsidized or does it cost money first?
RS: Well, it was subsidized by the hospital.
DH: No, if you were to go to the Wellness Center would you have to pay?
RS: No.
DH: It’s free?
RS: It’s free.
DH: Wow, do you have to be a certain age?
RS: Yes. Usually we think of seniors as anyone who is beyond 65. Yes.
DH: So if there was a Hispanic undocumented senior they could go and receive free preventive care?
RS: Yes, that is right. And, that is one of the whole ideas, preventive care. And, that of course in tune with the Affordable Care Act, more preventive care. The Wellness Center sponsors all kinds of exercise classes, physical therapy, and activities that adds to one’s sense of wellbeing.
DH: That’s a great resource for the undocumented community. Especially for the…
RS: And the meal, the meal is for, a noon day meal, a noon meal, and it meets the nutrition requirements of the Federal Government. The meal makes sure that these seniors that come to the Senior Center get one good meal a day. One doesn’t know what else they have. The majority of the people who come to the Senior Center for meals are living on the edge.
DH: Do you go a lot? Or?
RS: I used to go more than I do now.
DH: So the meal is free? Right?
RS: You can pay. Nobody tells you how much. You can make a donation or it’s free. You don’t have to pay.
DH: So it could be free?
RS: And for many people it is free. It is subsidized by the town of Chapel Hill, Carrboro, and Hillsborough.
DH: Can you speak at all, I mean I am sure you do stop by on occasion still. Can you speak at all to the demographics?
RS: No the wonderful thing about the Senior Center is that it has an ethnic variety. We have a large number of Asians that are there. They are the best ping-ball players in the place (laughing). And, we have quite a few middle class people because we have lectures, university lectures, and bridge. So there is everything from university lectures to Bingo. So the one thing that pleases me most about the Senior Center is that Black, White, Asian, Hispanic, Middle Class, Low Income. They are all in the same building and everyone feels at home at the place.
DH: Can you briefly touch on? Is there a definitive Hispanic population there?
RS: You know I am not always sure that I know who these Hispanic population is. But, I am sure they are there.
DH: Yea. Yea. Sometimes it is hard to discern.
RS: They don’t stand out sometimes.
DH: Yea, yea, for sure. But, but the demographic exists.
RS: Yes, I have been aware of El Centro that used to be in Carrboro, but now they moved to Durham.
DH: Yea, so is the Senior Center. How accessible is the Senior Center? How accessible is that? I guess are there like, busses that go to it?
RS: The town bus goes there.
DH: Ok that’s what I thought. Yea, that is a great resource. I really think I should share that with, I do a lot of work with Community Empowerment Fund.
RS: The Senior Center here was built five years ago. One in Chapel Hill and one in Hillsborough, attached to Sportsplex. Do you know Hillsborough?
DH: No I do not. I stay in Chapel Hill.
RS: Well they built two of the first Senior Centers in North Carolina. Worth a visit.
DH: So do you think the Affordable Care Act will do more to sponsor these Senior Centers?
RS: Well, I’m, I don’t know. But I think the Affordable Care Act at this moment is primarily concerned with the expansion of Medicaid.
DH: Yea, yea. Hopefully that goes through.
RS: I think eventually all the states will come on board.
DH: Yea. It is ridiculous …
RS: I think the Republicans will, ya know, well I don’t want to impose upon you my personal preferences. People are without Medicaid because they don’t like Obama.
DH: Yes. No I think that is partly true. Yea, ok great. I don’t have any more questions, but if you have any more final thoughts, please share them now.
RS: Well, my final thought is that I’m 89 years old and I am very much aware of healthcare issues, and I have just had a request from our Wellness Center to go get a prescription of Tamiflu and take it, even though I have had a flu immunization. And, I, as an aging person, I feel like I am living on borrowed time. But, we have a sizable population, 4 or 500 people here at Carol Woods, and quite a few of them are not only in their eighties but some are here beyond their hundredth birthday. You are part of a generation that will live longer than any in history.
DH: Yea, I am pretty excited (laughing).
RS: But the good thing is that young people need to dispel this notion that old people don’t have an enjoyable life. The last 25 years of my life have been, I would say, have been the best years of my life. After I retired. I had 25 years of freedom in terms of setting my own agenda. And I have no serious health hurdle. I have been able to maintain a reasonably good health.
DH: And maybe, just like your last thoughts on your opinion of like, how you see UNC healthcare and healthcare policy in general for the poor and the undocumented under the Affordable Care Act.
RS: And I would add to that— the poor, the undocumented, and the booming population of older people.
DH: Yea. And that. So you do you have any thoughts on that moving forward? What do you think is going to happen, basically?
RS: Well, I think Bill Roper is a man who is regarded as one of the best informed healthcare people in America. He was in Washington at the time of Medicare’s coming into being. But, the thing that disturbed me as a member of the board was that there is so much competition in healthcare and I see that as wasted money. UNC built this magnificent Cancer Hospital. It looks like a hotel. You know, no expense was spared during that. And, because it was at UNC, the very day we celebrated the opening of the UNC Cancer Hospital, our neighbor, Duke University announced that they were building one. Now we have two, within ten miles of each other. It’s a waste. It’s a great waste. Well, competition. And you see this everywhere in the triangle. UNC reaching out to Ghana and Apex and everywhere and Rex Hospital has just stolen the heart surgery team from Wake to Rex.
DH: Yea, that is silly. A lot of wasted expense. Alright. Thank you so much.
RS: Well, I am glad you came and I wish I could have helped you more, but maybe that will stimulate some further questions.
DH: Yea. No worries. I really think this helped guide me in the right direction and it was great to hear what the Board did and the community relations and stuff like that.
RS: Well, there are now two seats on the board for community representatives.
DH: Well, there are now two seats on the board for community representatives. Wow. That’s great. Why do you think that they added more?
RS: I can’t speak to that, but I think that they realized how important it was to have good public relations with the community. Most county hospitals have a county hospital. We don’t have one. So the UNC Healthcare, which is a state hospital, has in effect become a county hospital for those of us who live in Orange County. And, you may not know that UNC has just began building a new hospital in Hillsborough.
DH: Yea, I heard about that.
RS: Yea. So, they are outsourcing care as if they were responsible for Orange County. Which in fact they are.
DH: Yea. Wow. That’s crazy (laughing). Alright. Ok.
RS: If you have any further questions you can call me, or email me.
DH: I will make sure to do that. I see the computer, a nice Mac.
RS: Let me encourage you to go to the Senior Center before you finish your project.
DH: Ok. Yea. I will definitely try and go check out the Senior Center. You know, I have been trying to check out all these free, community clinics and resources.
RS: And I would especially implore you to go to Piedmont Health.
DH: Piedmont Health, because that is where most of the undocumented population goes.
RS: I think that is where most of the poor people go.
DH: Yea, alright, I will do that for sure. Yea, I am excited to visit there. Alright. That is all. Thank you very much. And yea, I look forward to staying in touch.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Clero; Administradores de cuidado de salud
Es: Género de entrevistado
Hombre
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
El reverendo Robert Seymour fue parte de la junta directiva del hospital de la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill de 1980 a 1984, y después de eso hizo un trabajo muy activo de abogacía enfocado en mejorar el acceso a los servicios de salud en la comunidad de Chapel Hill, en Carolina del Norte. El reverendo se destaca por su conocimiento del sistema de hospitales de la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill y a menudo critica cómo la estructura interna del hospital les impide continuar con su misión de ser un hospital público accesible. Esta entrevista es parte de la investigación de Danny Hogenkamp sobre cómo la reforma de salud (Affordable Care Act, o ACA por sus siglas en inglés) afecta a la comunidad latina indocumentada y cómo entonces la comunidad indocumentada afecta los hospitales locales. Esta entrevista en particular se enfocó en discutir las ramificaciones del hecho de que existan amplios sectores de la población sin un seguro de salud, y específicamente cómo un hospital como el de la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill está lidiando con el clima médico-financiero después del rechazo de Medicaid por parte de Carolina del Norte y la prohibición de ACA de proveer salud y cuidado a los indocumentados.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Robert Seymour por Danny Hogenkamp, 09 Abril 2014, R-0696, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Ciudadanía e inmigración; Programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios; Salud; Cuidado de la salud; Comunidades receptoras
Es: Transcripción
Danny Hogenkamp: Hello, I am Danny Hogenkamp and today I am interviewing Mr. Robert Seymour in 219 Carol Woods Retirement Community in Chapel Hill North Carolina. We will be talking about the administration at UNC Hospitals and how the possibly deal with finances and, yea, so I am going to start the interview. Thank you so much for speaking with me today, and I guess my first question, for what I want to know, is what position did you hold in the hospital, and what role did you hold working in the UNC hospitals?
Robert Seymour: I have to backtrack a little. I regret that Florence Silbus (adjusting how he holds the mic). I regret that Florence Silbus is not available for you to interview her because my role at UNC Hospitals was initiated through my contact with her. Florence Silbus had a dual appointment with the School of Social Work and the School of Medicine and she was very much aware of the, what she judges to be the failure of UNC Hospitals to measure up to their stated mission. And, she felt so strongly about this that she circulated a petition in Chapel Hill, she got over 2,000 people.
DH: When was this?
RS: This was, in 1980. She circulated this petition that people who felt there was (what) at UNC Hospitals, that the UNC Hospital was acting more like a private hospital than like a public hospital— to whom they were responsible, the people of North Carolina. And, she gave this petition to the Chancellor, at that time, who was Erskine Bowles. Subsequently, I received a telephone call from Bill Roper, who was the current Executive of UNC Hospitals saying that he had been instructed by the Chancellor to appoint someone from the community to the board. This was one way of having a person on the board aware of all that was happening there, and also, a contact person on the board for people in the community, like Florence, who felt that things were not as they should be. That led to an interesting conversation. I said, “Mr. Roper, you know that I am 80 years old”. Then he said “yes I know you are 80 years old but I sense that you are functioning fairly well”. I said, “You do also know that I signed this petition that perhaps is circulating in the community”. He said, “Yes. I am aware of that”. And I said, “How long is the term?”. And, they said “4 years” and I said, “I’ll make a deal with you. If you keep me alive for 4 years, I’ll do it”. And, I am now 89 so he kept his part of the problem. (Laughing)
DH: Alright. So you served on the Board for 4 years?
RS: For 4 years.
DH: From when?
RS: From 1980 to 1984.
DH: Ok.
RS: And that was, a time when the board was very sensitive to some of the criticisms that had come from the community. It was also a time when Bill Roper needed to have a re-evaluation of his work to get a new extended contract in his job. I was asked to be on the committee that brought in a special consultant to evaluate the work of Bill Roper as the CEO, and it turned out that this person brought in was a personal friend of Bill Ropers (laughs) so the end result was pretty well anticipated from the word go. But in any case, there was one singular thing that happened. One of the things that the consultant pointed out was that when people call the hospital to ask for an appointment the recorded message ended with “and bring cash when you come”.
DH: Must have turned a lot of people away.
RS: And she (the consultant) said that this may have been a turn off to poor people or people who may have been hesitant about coming to the hospital for revealing who they were as an undocumented person. So in response to that, they got the panel to change the message. Also, the issue of large bonuses to top administrative officials was something else. It was a thorn in the flesh for a lot of folks. Why should these people be getting such huge bonuses? Then Erskine Bowles ordered that that practice seek for the top administrative people in the society. That at most turned out to be a symbolic gesture because of course what was done was to do away with the bonuses and to increase the salaries (laughing). I must say, I have a very positive impression of the careful work that is going on at the hospital and the work of the healthcare board. It is a large board made up of a lot of people including the person or whatever he is called of the university.
DH: Tom Ross?
RS: No, I am talking about the man that has gone to Louisville.
DH: Who?
RS: Not Tom Ross. He is the President of the whole UNC University System. The man, the Chancellor of Chapel Hill.
DH: Oh, the, Holden Thorpe.
RS: Holden Thorpe, Holden Thorpe was on the board?
DH: He still is?
RS: No he is gone.
DH: He is gone now? But he was there when you were on the board?
RS: Yes. But most of the people on the board were people from outside— and most of them were people who were presidents of bank or industry, carrying very much a point of view that would not have automatically made them sympathetic to some of the issues that were on the table.
DH: So they were pretty biased towards corporate interests?
RS: Yes, that’s right. I was required to be, able to be on the board and designated as a community representative, and this was made public, and I would occasionally get people who wanted to have a gripe against the hospital or a hospital bill or something. They would call me. And, I would in turn share it with the Vice President of Public Relations in the hospital who would usually succeed in smoothing over things. For example, there was one very bad situation where a patient in Apex had such a big hospital bill that he was selling his house to pay off his hospital bill. And when that fact became known, the hospital quickly responded and deleted the cost of his bill so that they could save his house.
DH: Yea. Ok. So one of my big interests is what happens when, because this happens all the time especially with the undocumented population. They go into the hospital because they have an emergency, maybe they have a heart attack. And so, you know, the hospitals don’t ask questions, they wheel them into the emergency room, they give them this emergency service, could cost, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars. And then at the end, you know, like can you pay? And if the person cant pay, how does that get paid for because it’s not like the cost disappears.
RS: It is paid for by the excessive bills of those that can pay, pay. Yes. That is why hospital bills for those that could pay got to be so large, because we were subsidizing those that could not pay. And how well do you know Piedmont Health Center?
DH: I am pretty aware of it. I have looked at it a lot.
RS: It is a federal clinic in Chapel Hill and several neighboring counties. They are owned by a man named Brian Tunney, T-U-N-N-E-Y. And I think he is a person to who you should speak. Because I think low income persons generally tend to go to Piedmont Health Center. The word is out that this is the place for primary care if you don’t have any money or if you are undocumented. And I think there was a gentleman’s agreement. The hospital could refer primary care patients to Piedmont and Piedmont in return for crisis situations and surgery, would refer them to the hospital. So there was a working relationship there. Beyond that, I really am not personally aware of the problem as it is experienced by the undocumented population.
DH: Yea. It’s. I guess the best way to quickly describe it is that they just don’t have healthcare.
RS: That’s right. And they are afraid to come for healthcare to fail the question or to reveal that they are undocumented.
DH: Exactly. The guy I just interviewed yesterday who has some type of visa, lives in a house, with like 5 other undocumented friends. He is a young man…
RS: That itself is breaking the law. Chapel Hill has a law that says only four persons that are not related can live in the house. If it’s the five, they are breaking the law.
DH: Why is that, by the way?
RS: Ask the town board by the way.
DH: I am breaking the law.
RS: (Laughing). Don’t worry, I won’t report you.
DH: Please don’t. Please don’t. So, yea. All of these undocumented people he lives with, even when there are emergency situations where they should go to the hospital, they don’t go because what happened to two of his friends in the past is that they went to hospital, they got emergency care, and then as soon as their care was done, and they were well enough to be discharged, the immigration people were sitting right at the door.
RS: I really wish I was more aware of that personally because that is something that…
DH: No, it’s alright. I was looking to you to describe some of the hospital situations.
RS: Yes.
DH: I want to go back to something you said earlier. Piedmont Health Centers. Ok, so can you elaborate more on the structure and what…
RS: It is primarily a federally funded clinic.
DH: What type of funding is that? DSH funding?
RS: Federal government.
DH: Ok. What do they classify the spending as?
RS: I am not sure of the technology. That’s is why I think you should speak to Brian on that. He is the CEO, Brian Tonney, if I am remembering T-O-N-N-E-Y, Tonney.
DH: Ok, cool. So the Piedmont Health Center.
RS: He is still there.
DH: Ok, just as far as the health community in Chapel Hill.
RS: I think he could tell you more about the undocumented community.
DH: No, I will look into that. I have to go back and type this all out so I will definitely go back, listen to his information and try and contact him.
RS: This is an aside, but I think it will give you an illustration of what can happen. UNC Hospitals is supposed to be a public hospital, and that puts it in a special category of having an obligation of having to provide care to whomever needs it in North Carolina. UNC healthcare purchased a private hospital in Raleigh, Rex Hospital in Raleigh. And, my question was, if UNC purchased a private hospital in Raleigh with tax funds, why is it not also a public hospital?
DH: Is the one in Raleigh not a public hospital?
RS: It’s not a public hospital; they don’t have the same mandate to take care of the poor. And, it’s sort of a cash cow for UNC Hospitals.
DH: That’s interesting.
RS: Yea. Now there is a legal relationship there that has made Rex Hospital a private hospital owned by a public hospital. And, I think something is wrong with that picture.
DH: So, this mandate you’re talking about, just like getting back to how it would affect the poor populations in the community. So you are saying that UNC has this mandate, and Rex doesn’t. So how does that manifest itself on the ground when an undocumented person comes in?
RS: I think it manifests itself by not feeling the same obligation to take care of as many people who are uninsured, who can’t pay. Whereas Wake Hospital, across town, is a county owned hospital. My son is a physician there, and he says that Wake Hospital has a huge intake of uninsured people coming from all over Eastern North Carolina.
DH: Oh. Ok.
RS: And they are showing a deficit at this point.
DH: That is interesting because that is actually one of the things I am researching. Do you know, I am sure you have kept up on the Affordable Care Act?
RS: Oh yes.
DH: Ok. So the Affordable Care Act is obviously assuming that there are going to be less uninsured people. So they are cutting Discretionary Spending for Hospitals, DSH funding. I don’t know if you have ever heard that word get thrown around, but that is this giant hospital slush fund that pays hospitals for their deficits they ring up and for paying Medicaid patients and for uninsured patients. And, so that slush fund is getting smaller year by year under the Affordable Care Act because they are assuming the uninsured population is going to go down. But, in North Carolina, the state decided not to expand Medicaid.
RS: Medicaid. Yea, and they are getting more and more criticism about that, and I think the pressure will still be on until they move.
DH: And the other thing, the kicker, is the huge undocumented population. So, the Federal Government is thinking, “Hey, the number of uninsured will go down”. But actually, in North Carolina, there is no Medicaid expansion and we still have a ton of these undocumented immigrants and who can’t get healthcare. So can you talk a little bit about the deficit that is created at the hospital that your son works at?
RS: Well, I really can’t say much more than I said. Have you read the paper today?
DH: I have not read the paper today.
RS: You should see one of the lead pages in the New York Times is a revelation about how much doctors are being paid from Medicare. And, it turns out that there are many doctors who are being paid as much as ten million dollars a year by the Medicaid system.
DH: Really?
RS: Yes. And, it’s in the news today.
DH: Because it was always...
RS: I think I may still have the paper. I can give it to you.
DH: But in the past, people thought that doctors who treated Medicaid patients didn’t receive that much money?
RS: That’s right. And obviously that’s not the case. People know how to work the system. Yes. There was great shock when they made these figures public, because no one thought that doctors could be so rich from Medicaid. But, its happening all over the country.
DH: Can I check this to make sure it is still recording?
RS: I really think that that is essentially about all I can share with you unless you have some specific questions.
DH: I do have some more specific questions. I was just trying to get a background for what you have been working on, what I guess you have been working in. So you were on the UNC Healthcare Executive Board for what years?
RS: I was on the UNC Healthcare Board from 1980-1984.
DH: Ok. But Holden Thorpe was on the board then?
RS: Yes.
DH: Because he was a professor here?
RS: We he was the CEO of UNC. He was the Chancellor of UNC Chapel Hill. Ross was the head of the whole University System in the state and Thorpe was in charge of the Chapel Hill campus.
DH: Ok.
RS: I think the word is Chancellor, isn’t it?
DH: Yea. Chancellor. Ok. So, just some specific things. When you are at a board meeting, do they discuss finances?
RS: Oh Yes.
DH: Can you just.
RS: There are many committees that meet simultaneously, and I was never that close to the Finance Committee, but the final budgets always came to the whole board. And, money was always a concern—the bottom line. And, there wasn’t much transparency between consistency from one hospital to another about surgeries and how much you pay for it. A recent study revealed that you could have a colonoscopy for as little as $200 or $10,000 depending on which hospital you went to.
DH: Wow.
RS: So, the disparity of costs, but the public doesn’t know that. So with the Affordable Care Act, the public needs to know in advance how much money is required for this procedure, that procedure or another. Not that you intend to go shopping when you are sick, you just think of going to the nearest hospital.
DH: Ok so the finances. When they make the budget, does it just come out even? Or do they keep a surplus? Or do they run a deficit?
RS: Oh, they keep a surplus. Yea, they have enough surplus to purchase Rex Hospital in Raleigh (laughing).
DH: Do you think that is an every year thing? Or is that just an 80’s thing? Because 80-84, that was a good economic time.
RS: I really cannot remember or speak within the authority on that but I can tell you that the concern was always cost. You need to look around Chapel Hill, and everywhere you will look, you will see the outreach of UNC Healthcare. And, that’s the really the whole hospital system that looks like a giant corporation. That kind of mentality is very much in the forefront of the management of our healthcare system.
DH: Yea. Ok. So, the board, I want to talk about lobbying. Because one way people have talked about fixing, or maybe re-expanding Medicaid in North Carolina, or maybe trying to get some sort of healthcare to the undocumented, is through this huge hospital lobbying power. So, do you have people on the board that would lobby, like for changes in policies and laws?
RS: I don’t remember anything specific like that.
DH: Ok, but did you have, was there a makeup of people with political influence?
RS: Well, I can tell you that my primary focus for the board was concern for the rapidly growing senior population and also the emergence of the Affordable Care Act. The hospital was projecting population statistics and possible growing deficit and a major concern was that the population in North Carolina was rapidly aging now that the Boomers have come on board. And so how does this affect the hospitals in terms of its potential deficit? Those were the types of questions that were frequently asked.
DH: Do you think that was another reason they were raising costs?
RS: Probably. Also, another concern that I have had. And, this may be of interest to you. I retired 26 years ago and quickly became involved in issues affecting older people, working with the department on aging. And, we succeeded in getting the county commissioners built here and in Hillsborough. Have you seen these?
DH: Uh. I think I have seen the one on Chapel Hill.
RS: It’s on Homestead Road. It bears my name.
DH: Really? I guess I had never connected the dots. Wow.
RS: Yes. And it’s because I harassed the county commissioner for twenty years to build it. Because that’s, see, the healthcare of seniors is to some degree, dependent on nutrition and socialization. And the Senior Center serves meals to a lot of low income seniors. And it is a place where older people who live alone can come to have socialization. And that is totally separate from the hospital but from having been on the board of the hospital, I was able to advocate that the Gerontology part of the Hospital sponsor the geriatric evaluations at the Senior Center. But, that took place for about five years and now we have trouble finding enough funding to pay for it. But, we have a wellness center as a part of the Senior Center. And, we frequently refer people from the Senior Center to the hospital. Now that the concern I had as a member of the board was that many. Incidentally, now Bill Roper is not just the head of the UNC Hospital System but he is also the Dean of the Medical School. He wears two hats. So, one concern that I had had, was that many medical students do not have a very good image of the senior population in our culture, because the seniors that they see in their medical education are seniors that are ill and disabled and, an experiment. What percentage of seniors do you think are in nursing homes?
DH: Well, I don’t know. If I had to guess I would say like 40%, 50%.
RS: Five percent, five percent.
DH: Why is that?
RS: Well, it’s that people have a stereotype image of seniors. I’m 89 years old and I am living independently. I’m not in the hospital. I’m not in an assisted care community. People are living longer. But, most Medical Students would have given the answer that you have given. But, the reality is by far the most number of seniors are living an independent life. In Chapel Hill, we have over 10,000 seniors. We have more seniors than children in the public school system. So, I succeeded in getting the Medical School to start a new program requiring first year medical system to be teamed up with people like me and to make six visits in the course of their freshman year to understand the senior experience and to realize that their career will require some gerontology. Any doctor in the future, should know that seniors require a special dimension of their education. But, the curriculum sometimes does not affect that need.
DH: Yea. This is actually really important, because you said the baby boomers are getting older, and we are witnessing that right now. But, as you know, the Hispanic population boom began in the eighties, and like they are all around their fifties, all the people that came when the population exploded are around fifty. So we have all these undocumented, and some documented, Hispanic people that are about to become a huge part of the…
RS: That’s right. You might want to go to the Senior Center and interview the person that is responsible for the Wellness part of the center. And, you would have a visual impression of one dimension of medical care that is rapidly becoming a priority in the healthcare system. Not only the poor, but aging affects everyone. Nobody escapes aging as they live.
DH: So the Wellness Center, hypothetically if I was an undocumented immigrant and I went to the Wellness Center. How would that work?
DH: Well, I don’t think anyone would ever ask for your identification at the Senior Center. Maybe if you were referred to the hospital, for special needs, and that may be another situation where it could be revealed.
DH: But the Wellness Center would provide, is it subsidized or does it cost money first?
RS: Well, it was subsidized by the hospital.
DH: No, if you were to go to the Wellness Center would you have to pay?
RS: No.
DH: It’s free?
RS: It’s free.
DH: Wow, do you have to be a certain age?
RS: Yes. Usually we think of seniors as anyone who is beyond 65. Yes.
DH: So if there was a Hispanic undocumented senior they could go and receive free preventive care?
RS: Yes, that is right. And, that is one of the whole ideas, preventive care. And, that of course in tune with the Affordable Care Act, more preventive care. The Wellness Center sponsors all kinds of exercise classes, physical therapy, and activities that adds to one’s sense of wellbeing.
DH: That’s a great resource for the undocumented community. Especially for the…
RS: And the meal, the meal is for, a noon day meal, a noon meal, and it meets the nutrition requirements of the Federal Government. The meal makes sure that these seniors that come to the Senior Center get one good meal a day. One doesn’t know what else they have. The majority of the people who come to the Senior Center for meals are living on the edge.
DH: Do you go a lot? Or?
RS: I used to go more than I do now.
DH: So the meal is free? Right?
RS: You can pay. Nobody tells you how much. You can make a donation or it’s free. You don’t have to pay.
DH: So it could be free?
RS: And for many people it is free. It is subsidized by the town of Chapel Hill, Carrboro, and Hillsborough.
DH: Can you speak at all, I mean I am sure you do stop by on occasion still. Can you speak at all to the demographics?
RS: No the wonderful thing about the Senior Center is that it has an ethnic variety. We have a large number of Asians that are there. They are the best ping-ball players in the place (laughing). And, we have quite a few middle class people because we have lectures, university lectures, and bridge. So there is everything from university lectures to Bingo. So the one thing that pleases me most about the Senior Center is that Black, White, Asian, Hispanic, Middle Class, Low Income. They are all in the same building and everyone feels at home at the place.
DH: Can you briefly touch on? Is there a definitive Hispanic population there?
RS: You know I am not always sure that I know who these Hispanic population is. But, I am sure they are there.
DH: Yea. Yea. Sometimes it is hard to discern.
RS: They don’t stand out sometimes.
DH: Yea, yea, for sure. But, but the demographic exists.
RS: Yes, I have been aware of El Centro that used to be in Carrboro, but now they moved to Durham.
DH: Yea, so is the Senior Center. How accessible is the Senior Center? How accessible is that? I guess are there like, busses that go to it?
RS: The town bus goes there.
DH: Ok that’s what I thought. Yea, that is a great resource. I really think I should share that with, I do a lot of work with Community Empowerment Fund.
RS: The Senior Center here was built five years ago. One in Chapel Hill and one in Hillsborough, attached to Sportsplex. Do you know Hillsborough?
DH: No I do not. I stay in Chapel Hill.
RS: Well they built two of the first Senior Centers in North Carolina. Worth a visit.
DH: So do you think the Affordable Care Act will do more to sponsor these Senior Centers?
RS: Well, I’m, I don’t know. But I think the Affordable Care Act at this moment is primarily concerned with the expansion of Medicaid.
DH: Yea, yea. Hopefully that goes through.
RS: I think eventually all the states will come on board.
DH: Yea. It is ridiculous …
RS: I think the Republicans will, ya know, well I don’t want to impose upon you my personal preferences. People are without Medicaid because they don’t like Obama.
DH: Yes. No I think that is partly true. Yea, ok great. I don’t have any more questions, but if you have any more final thoughts, please share them now.
RS: Well, my final thought is that I’m 89 years old and I am very much aware of healthcare issues, and I have just had a request from our Wellness Center to go get a prescription of Tamiflu and take it, even though I have had a flu immunization. And, I, as an aging person, I feel like I am living on borrowed time. But, we have a sizable population, 4 or 500 people here at Carol Woods, and quite a few of them are not only in their eighties but some are here beyond their hundredth birthday. You are part of a generation that will live longer than any in history.
DH: Yea, I am pretty excited (laughing).
RS: But the good thing is that young people need to dispel this notion that old people don’t have an enjoyable life. The last 25 years of my life have been, I would say, have been the best years of my life. After I retired. I had 25 years of freedom in terms of setting my own agenda. And I have no serious health hurdle. I have been able to maintain a reasonably good health.
DH: And maybe, just like your last thoughts on your opinion of like, how you see UNC healthcare and healthcare policy in general for the poor and the undocumented under the Affordable Care Act.
RS: And I would add to that— the poor, the undocumented, and the booming population of older people.
DH: Yea. And that. So you do you have any thoughts on that moving forward? What do you think is going to happen, basically?
RS: Well, I think Bill Roper is a man who is regarded as one of the best informed healthcare people in America. He was in Washington at the time of Medicare’s coming into being. But, the thing that disturbed me as a member of the board was that there is so much competition in healthcare and I see that as wasted money. UNC built this magnificent Cancer Hospital. It looks like a hotel. You know, no expense was spared during that. And, because it was at UNC, the very day we celebrated the opening of the UNC Cancer Hospital, our neighbor, Duke University announced that they were building one. Now we have two, within ten miles of each other. It’s a waste. It’s a great waste. Well, competition. And you see this everywhere in the triangle. UNC reaching out to Ghana and Apex and everywhere and Rex Hospital has just stolen the heart surgery team from Wake to Rex.
DH: Yea, that is silly. A lot of wasted expense. Alright. Thank you so much.
RS: Well, I am glad you came and I wish I could have helped you more, but maybe that will stimulate some further questions.
DH: Yea. No worries. I really think this helped guide me in the right direction and it was great to hear what the Board did and the community relations and stuff like that.
RS: Well, there are now two seats on the board for community representatives.
DH: Well, there are now two seats on the board for community representatives. Wow. That’s great. Why do you think that they added more?
RS: I can’t speak to that, but I think that they realized how important it was to have good public relations with the community. Most county hospitals have a county hospital. We don’t have one. So the UNC Healthcare, which is a state hospital, has in effect become a county hospital for those of us who live in Orange County. And, you may not know that UNC has just began building a new hospital in Hillsborough.
DH: Yea, I heard about that.
RS: Yea. So, they are outsourcing care as if they were responsible for Orange County. Which in fact they are.
DH: Yea. Wow. That’s crazy (laughing). Alright. Ok.
RS: If you have any further questions you can call me, or email me.
DH: I will make sure to do that. I see the computer, a nice Mac.
RS: Let me encourage you to go to the Senior Center before you finish your project.
DH: Ok. Yea. I will definitely try and go check out the Senior Center. You know, I have been trying to check out all these free, community clinics and resources.
RS: And I would especially implore you to go to Piedmont Health.
DH: Piedmont Health, because that is where most of the undocumented population goes.
RS: I think that is where most of the poor people go.
DH: Yea, alright, I will do that for sure. Yea, I am excited to visit there. Alright. That is all. Thank you very much. And yea, I look forward to staying in touch.
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
Dublin Core
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Title
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R-0696 -- Seymour, Robert E.
Description
An account of the resource
Reverend Robert Seymour sat on the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Hospital Board of Directors from 1980-1984 and after that was an active lobbyist for improving healthcare accessibility in the Chapel Hill, North Carolina Community. The Reverend is noted for his knowledge of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Hospital system and is often a critic of how the Hospital’s internal structure prevents them from following through on their mandate of being an accessible, public hospital. This interview is part of Danny Hogenkamp's ongoing investigation of how the Affordable Care Act affects the undocumented Latino population and how the undocumented Latino population consequently affects local hospitals. This interview, in particular, was aimed at discussing the ramifications of large uninsured populations—specifically, how a hospital like the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill's is dealing with the current medical finance climate after North Carolina’s rejection of Medicaid, and the Affordable Care Act’s rejection of healthcare for the undocumented.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
09 April 2014
Format
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R0696_Audio.mp3
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/20195">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/02876c98ea2a3668838fd9dc090a2525.mp3
7dd2af718c83917476a03be12f9ba659
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/c0ec4d42c1e04ca4763162f0e1e8e64c.pdf
c591d31491248cfa10f2277fe55932e1
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0698
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
01 April 2014
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Smith, Jane, pseud.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Students Social justice activists
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1992
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Peru
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Chapel Hill -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-75.25 -10),1992,1;POINT(-79.05584450000003 35.9131996),2001,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Lodaya, Hetali.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Jane Smith (pseudonym), speaks about her involvement with issues related to migration, and the broader landscape of student activism work related to immigration in North Carolina. She shares stories from her work with Students United for Immigrant Equality at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and her observations on the challenges of working with the undocumented population in North Carolina. In particular, she finds the lack of central leadership challenging, and discusses how different stakeholders in the state might be able to work more effectively together. From her perspective, the landscape of activism in North Carolina has shifted over the past few years from solely awareness and advocacy work, to include more of a policy focus, in light of federal policies such as Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA). Advocacy has also changed as more and more undocumented students are becoming open about their status and choosing to advocate for themselves; this, however, sometimes creates tension when considering the role of allies in the movement.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Jane Smith, pseud., by Hetali Lodaya, 01 April 2014, R-0698, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/20192
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Activism; Citizenship and immigration; Education; DREAMers and DACA; Receiving communities
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Hetali Lodaya: This is Hetali Lodaya. I’m interviewing Jane, which is a pseudonym, on April 1st, 2014, on the 2nd floor of the Campus Y at UNC-Chapel Hill. So let’s just start with some background. Can you talk about where you’re from and how long you’ve been in North Carolina?
Jane Smith: Yes. I was born in Peru, I lived there until I was about nine or so, moved to the US in 2000 [pause] 2001, about? It was a long time ago, but I’ve been in North Carolina since, I’ve been in North Carolina for eight years now. So, the longest I’ve ever been anywhere.
HL: Can you give a little bit of background on your family that’s here in North Carolina, and that’s maybe still in other places?
JS: Yeah, so my immediate family lives in North Carolina, my parents, my siblings, but the rest of my family, uncles, aunts, cousins, all live back in Peru.
HL: And, just sort of describing your involvement in advocacy work, can you give a little background on where it began, and what kinds of things you’ve been involved in?
JS: Right, so, I’m undocumented, which for years I didn’t think really meant anything. I guess when you’re younger, when you’re a child, your parents are exposed to the bulk of what that situation means and I was really privileged at how my parents handled the situation. Working three jobs a day, and never really acting any different at home, still being great parents. I went to public school, it was all normal. And I guess it really kind of hit me when I turned, what was it, fourteen, fifteen, and I had to get a permit and I was able to get my permit, but by the time I got my permit, my driving permit, North Carolina legislation had changed to where you needed a social security number to get anything driving-related. So I could not get a license, and the rest of my peers got a license, and that was really the first time that the situation kind of hit me personally. It struck me as incredibly unfair, and after so many years of not being exposed to it at all, I really didn’t know what to make of it, so it was more of a confusion time. Then coming to college was I guess the next big step that really kind of differentiated me from everyone else that I had become friends with in my lifetime in North Carolina. It’s easy as the fact that everyone would be applying freely and applying to financial aid or whatever, whatever way they could afford to go to school, and those options were just not available to me. When I was, what was it, like eighteen, I was faced with the decision in which I’d gotten into all the schools that I’d applied for, but I simply could not pay for any of them. So I was faced with the decision of okay, right now, do I leave the country? Because I will go to college, whether it’s here or Peru or wherever. So, do I leave the country and face not seeing my family for ten years, because of the ten year bar, or do I stay here and, I guess, try to get some sort of job and try to pay my way through community college. And then miraculously, I was able to get a scholarship, a private scholarship, that covered my attendance at Carolina. And I felt like that was a sign. I felt like I’d been really confused and kind of useless, and the bigger picture of what this immigration debacle is in the United States [pause], and I felt like coming here meant, you’ve got to do something with this, more than just go to class. So I guess that’s kind of what pushed me to seek out, especially in the Chapel Hill area, what was currently being done with students like me. I actually had another friend who was undocumented, and he was openly undocumented, and that to me was a completely foreign, new concept. I met him my first year, is when I met him. He had gone to State and had dropped out because he couldn’t afford it, and he told me, you know, there’s actually this organization at Carolina, and they work with immigration advocacy on campus, and you should go to their meetings, they meet this time, and he didn’t even go to Carolina. And I was like, ok, yeah, yeah, you know, I’ll go. And that’s how I got involved with SUIE first, so yeah, I guess that’s background, kind of how it all started.
HL: And can you describe what kinds of work you did, you’ve done, with SUIE?
JS: Right, so, SUIE is Students United for Immigrant Equality here on campus, and when I joined, we were about two years old. Very new organization, and the way immigration work is done in North Carolina, you have obviously a lot of levels, like lobbying, anywhere from grassroots to lobbying, to going to DC and trying to figure things out over there, which our other co-chair does. But when we started we were fairly new, so we focused more on doing events on campus that kind of raised awareness about the misconceptions that people have about your day-to-day immigrant, or specifically your day-to-day undocumented immigrant. My first year, it was a year or two after the Trail of Dreams, the walkers from Florida that walked all the way to DC, and that was one of the first instances of having openly undocumented students saying, hey, I’m not a criminal, I’m educated, and I want to be a part of this society, I’ve lived here, I’ve grown up here. So that was kind of the regime change that we were at at that point. Because up until then, I think, immigration work had been a lot of work done by allies, that, they said, you know, we stand for undocumented people and we really believe that they deserve these human rights to education, to health, health insurance, and things like that. But when I joined it was kind of a change of undocumented people themselves coming out and saying, this is who I am, I speak English, I’m here, I’m part of your society. You know, every person knows, directly or indirectly, an undocumented person, there’s 11 million of us out there. So our other co-chair, he was openly undocumented at the time, and it was an interesting dynamic for me personally because I wasn’t, and seeing all of these people come out. So we worked with the Immigrant Youth Forum, a local high school student group from Carrboro, and they’re high school students who are undocumented, and they’re juniors, seniors, and the struggle of trying to transition into college. And they would come and have coming out rallies at the Pit, where they would, you know, with a megaphone, say, hey, my name is so-and-so, I’m this old, and I am Carolina born and bred, but I will not be going here because of this policy, essentially. And we started getting a great response, and people-it was a new way of doing things, people were really kind of taken by it, and we said, hey, you know, we should have a big thing once a semester and see what the interest is in people, and maybe raise funds for a scholarship. And so the year that I joined we did our first Immigration Awareness Week with a big banquet, where we brought Jose Antonio Vargas to speak. He is an undocumented journalist who now is a big advocate, and does amazing work, but we got him before he was famous, so he was cheap. But thanks to him, and thanks to his help and the banquet, we raised money, it was like 1500 dollars, nothing huge, but still could pay for a semester or so of community college. It’s something, anything, could help. So that’s how we started, and from there we’ve continued to do that in the past three years, and we’ve also kind of taken up the tuition equity campaigning battle. We took that from a different aspect, we would meet with stakeholders on campus. We really believed that Carolina, specifically being the flagship school of public education, should be accessible to everyone, if nowhere else in North Carolina. And you try to approach it through the chancellor, and through stakeholders, and it was a battle. It still is, but we launched the One State, One Rate campaign, which gained public-public attention, because nothing like that had come out from Carolina before. And it was during this time that I came out also as undocumented. That–you know, I think it helped, and I hope it helped, and I, since then I’ve been openly okay with talking about it, and I think it really does change the perspectives when you meet someone that is undocumented. So we’ve been working with the One State, One Rate campaign, since it has spread out to NC State, UNC-Charlotte, and UNC-Asheville. They’re doing kind of local work through the campaign on their campuses, but the idea is that if we spark enough ruckus in enough campuses, then the decision making will be kind of pushed by educators. We want to make this an education issue, though the One State, One Rate campaign, so tuition equity has kind of been our focus lately.
HL: I remember being there at one of those rallies in the pit, it was really special. Talking about that change in how advocacy work is done, shifting from allies to the students and the people themselves doing that advocacy, can you talk about how those two pieces of who you are, the fact that you’re a student and the fact that you’re an undocumented student, how do you think they affect your interactions with all of these stakeholders? With legislators, people in the university?
JS: Interestingly enough, there’s upsides and downsides of being any player in advocacy work. If you are an ally, who is pushing for tuition equity, you will have stakeholders who maybe believe you don’t have the credibility to speak on that issue because you’re not undocumented. Then you may have undocumented students themselves, who say, hey, we’re coming out now! We’re here, we have our own voices, don’t speak for us, speak with us. So it’s been an interesting shifting change because it’s created a lot of different mentalities as to how to work together now.
HL: How do you feel about that? Working with, or the role of people that are allies?
JS: Well, it’s been one of my biggest struggles because I was, in my opinion, I was cowardly for a long time. I’m not saying that people who don’t come out as undocumented are all cowards, but I felt that way, and I felt that seeing a fifteen-year-old undocumented high school student come out on a college campus and say, you know, this is my situation, I felt that was admirable, and I felt-that’s, those were the kind of stories that pushed me to come out as well. And I feel like allies are an incredibly important part of the movement. I feel like they are the ones who have the vote, at the end of the day. Not that we depend on them, and I feel like undocumented stories are obviously the core of it, but I’ve definitely experienced some backlash from the undocumented community to the ally community, within the movement. That’s been one of my biggest struggles in working in immigration advocacy in North Carolina, that you have all these allies who’s been at it for years, and yes, they’re not undocumented, but it speaks so highly of them that they spend so much time and they are so passionate about the cause that they’re out there doing what they can, organizing, and so I’m all for allies. I’m all for any and all people who want to move this forward. Because at the end of the day there’s a goal, and I think scattering amongst the ranks isn’t really the way to move forward together, so yeah, I’m all for allies. A lot of my best friends have been my best supporters, and they’re not undocumented.
HL: Yeah, absolutely, and sorry, I kind of side tracked you from the original question, of the pieces of your identity affecting your role in advocacy in the state of North Carolina.
JS: Right, so, as a student [pause] I’ve tried to, and I mean SUIE together, we’ve tried to, at least for the tuition equity battle, we’ve tried to paint this and make this an education accessibility issue. Not really like a bipartisan, political, us versus them issue, but simply the issue of public education should be accessible. And we’ve gained many, many stakeholders and many supporters that way, the UNC Faculty Council was one great win supporter. They said, yeah, we agree, and these are the representatives of faculty on campus, and they said yeah, we believe UNC should be accessible to all students who get in. I mean, that’s the bottom line, that these undocumented students are smart enough, capable enough, they’re getting into these universities, but it’s an economic limitation implemented by policy that’s not permitting them to do that. So, as a student, I like to paint it as an education equity accessibility issue. As an undocumented person, it’s been an interesting kind of identity personally, because my family is not open about their situation, they’re not happy that I’m open about my situation, they worry about it every day, and I know that it’s the same for every other person that’s openly undocumented. I want to talk about my story, I want to tell my story, because I think, at the end of the day, that’s what people remember. You don’t remember stats, you don’t really remember, oh, this amount of kids don’t get to go to college every year that are undocumented. You remember, oh, this is so-and-so, she’s a whatever major, she’s gone here for so many years, she does this, she’s done undergraduate research, she’s in the honors program, boom-boom-boom. That’s what you remember. So it’s been interesting personally, balancing how public I am about my personal experience in a way that protects my family, but in a way that also pushes the cause forward. It’s been interesting, and I’m sure everyone in that situation is in that kind of dilemma.
HL: Is it different in different situations depending on sort of who you’re speaking with, so if you’re speaking with somebody that’s a state legislator versus someone who is maybe working from a different side of the issue? Do you have to be a different advocate when you work with different communities?
JS: Yeah, I think different stakeholders, usually it comes down to either the economic, factual, rational argument, or the humanitarian, emotional side. And those are the two roles that I think every advocate has to play, but personally I’ve found that when I’m speaking to members of the Board of Governors, the Board of Trustees-not that they’re not there to cater to human rights and all of that, but they want to see the facts, they want to see the numbers, they want to-I wouldn’t sit there with them in a meeting and tell them, oh, you know, this is my story, this is my life dream to come to Carolina. And I mean, I could , and sometimes I do as part of an introduction, but the bulk of the conversation and the bulk of my pitch is going to be, this is the revenue that undocumented students could bring to the economy, were they to receive a diploma and be allowed to work. You know, undocumented students and immigrants pay taxes. Property taxes they don’t get to opt out of, and a lot of them pay income taxes as well, without receiving the benefits. And you know, a lot of these kinds of arguments, they don’t even know that. So usually that kind of rational, logistic argument works better with board members, politicians, something that when people on campus usually-like students groups , when we have events or even the Faculty Council was a great one, or when we pitched at the Campus Y, or for the DTH, those are more telling our stories because we’re relating to other students. And so students can relate to wanting to go to college, to wanting to have equal opportunity, to wanting to go to college. So yeah, on one I’m more the educated advocate and the student, and the other, I’m kind of more, my personal story and how much of an exception I am to the rule of most people who are not able to make it here.
HL: Talking about your family’s concerns, so, looking at the immigrant community as a stakeholder group, do you feel like you have to do advocacy work sort of within the community as well, in terms of getting people to be involved, to share their stories, to want to do to do this kind of a thing? What is that like, working with the people that this affects?
JS: So, what I’ve found is that coming out, you know, we call it coming out, there isn’t anything else to call it, is a very, very personal thing. And so there really isn’t an advocacy space out there to advocate for other people to come out with their stories, because if they come out when they’re not ready, it’ll be really, really difficult for them to deal with. You have to be ready for the backlash from your family, you have to be ready for all the people looking at you like you’re a martian. You have to be ready for what that entails, and if you’re not ready, it won’t work. So, it’s a very personal decision to do that. But working with the immigrant community, unfortunately, there’s still a lot of fear, and getting–I remember, last semester, we did a DACA seminar. So, Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals is a policy that just passed, well not just passed, I guess it’s been a year and a half now, but this was kind of a temporary asylum from deportation for undocumented students ages fifteen to thirty. It was an Executive Order, kind of like Obama’s relief because of all the pressure he had been getting for any sort of immigration reform, which, you know, an actual immigration reform bill didn’t go anywhere in the House. So there were a lot of technicalities involved with this process, and it was available to a lot of undocumented immigrants out there, and so we wanted to have a seminar with attorneys present, to invite the community, and show them how this had to be done because you needed to submit so much documentation, proving your residence, proving that you’re a good person and everything, and then you also had to pay a $475 fee, which is a lot of money to some people, especially undocumented immigrants. So we had this seminar with all of the resources, and we barely had a show of the immigrant community. And it was a two day event, and on the first day, we kept asking people that did come, and we said, why-because we advertised broadly, in different churches, in safe spaces, and we were like, why are you here, why aren’t people coming? And they kept saying, well, you brought an attorney. You know, you brought an attorney, we thought there were going to be cops, we thought–there’s just a lot of fear with any help offered. There’s not really a trust relationship. So I think the work that needs to be done within the immigrant community is showing them, you know, there’s really nothing to fear, especially when it’s resources, but there’s a lot of fear around working with this issue. The next day we had more people show up, because you know, we were like, it’s just us! So it’s really cool and you know, they were having legal counseling for free, which a lot of them wouldn’t even know how to go about finding those resources, so, we had a lot more come the next day, so that was good. So, yeah, a lot of fear in the immigrant community, especially to push them to work in advocacy, I think it’s-we have a long way to go in that.
HL: What do you think it will take to get more people to be willing to be involved, not even to the extent of coming out if they’re undocumented, but just wanting to be involved and wanting to participate in that way, in North Carolina in particular, and what you’ve seen?
JS: Yeah, I think it’s a big generational gap, first of all. So you have the parents, who are exposed to discrimination in the workplace, who, I mean, are paid awful salaries, it’s really difficult to envision them having hope for the situation, based on their day-to-day lives. So I think the tightening of policies in North Carolina is what has pushed this new generation, because it’s a younger generation, of undocumented immigrants that are advocating openly and rallying and having “undocugraduations” at the General Assembly and things like that. It’s the new generation that’s saying you know what, we’re fed up, we deserve better, and right now we can’t drive, we can’t work, we can’t do anything, and you claim we’re not members, we’re not involved in the economic society, and we can’t take part as Americans, but you’re literally not letting us do anything. We’d like to, but we can’t. So, I’m not saying that tightening the policies was a good thing, that making them worse was a good thing, but it is what has pushed a response. In fact, when DACA came out, under DACA, it was required to give licenses to undocumented people as a part of DACA. And North Carolina was the only state that refused to do so. And that was one of the biggest unanimous pushes that North Carolina ever saw from the undocumented community. And this was everyone, because, it’s fifteen to thirty, so it also included some adults, parents, and they were like, absolutely not. And their allies rose, and there were rallies, there were protests, and finally North Carolina said ok, fine, we’ll do it, but we’ll give you a fuchsia mark on your licenses, so that everyone knows you’re undocumented. And then that was even worse, that pissed off not only undocumented people, not only their allies, but anyone who’s ever been a minority, who was like you know, that’s like the new Star of David. That’s what people were calling it. They were infuriated. And that’s really what hit a chord with every minority in North Carolina, and fortunately that ended up not happening. They ended up giving licenses – it still says on there, legal presence, no lawful status, but it at least it doesn’t have a huge fuchsia mark that says, you know, your expiration date of being in the country or something like that. It was ridiculous. So–I think that people are fed up, and I think that it’s escalating. I think there was a really big momentum when the immigration reform bill was in the House, was in the Senate, that’s when most things started kind of appearing all across the country, most movements. But to be honest, what I think it’s going to take is a unifying leader under this movement. When you think of any movement that was ever successful, especially nationally with, rights related, human rights related, you really need a leader or a group of leaders, and the immigration movement has been very scattered, not only in North Carolina but across the country, because there is no-not one person or not one group of people that is willing to come out there and say, you know, we’re out here standing for this cause, and everyone–today’s going to be national undocumented immigrant day, let’s boycott. No-no one’s working on the farms today, things like that. It’s just a lot of risk, that there’s too much fear to take right now.
HL: Can you talk about over the past couple of years, in North Carolina specifically, some of this tightening that has happened, things that you’ve seen, how has it changed interactions and relationships within the advocacy community? Are there different groups of people that you work with more, are there different groups of people that care about different issues? How is it – how has sort of the political change, I guess, in North Carolina affected what it means to do advocacy?
JS: Yeah, no, that’s a great question. So I would say when we first started we worked more, as I said, very, very locally. Within campus, we worked with the Chancellor, we worked with other student groups, we worked with local Chapel Hill-Carrboro groups, thinking that the change could come from the inside out. There was no hope policy-wise at the time. You know, three years ago, it was kind of like the lowest of the low. As far as policy goes. And you know, we were thinking, if we could get one powerful voice to be public about this, it’s going to have to-as I said, some sort of leader is going to have to spring other people that already support this issue, and we found that really these kind of public figures, such as the Chancellor, or even the Board of Trustees, were mostly just that, public figures, and actually they couldn’t make policy change on campus as far as tuition equity. Now, it’s become more of a lobbying issue. Which is not my favorite part of advocacy-I find politics enraging. But now it’s become more about finding Democrat and Republican supporters, you know, representatives that support this issue, drafting a bill together. We’re in the process of doing that, and, I mean, so many bills have been drafted, so many bills have been introduced, but now it’s more about getting representative support in North Carolina so that we can get a big enough group to introduce some sort of bill, to have some sort of compromise, and starting from anywhere, you know, I believe we’re okay with providing tuition equity only for DACA recipients at first, and then trying to expand that, and then trying to expand that. I mean, the policy history in North Carolina has just been from bad to worse for undocumented students since I’ve lived here. It’s just increasingly just gotten worse. And that, I mean, that just pushed us to look elsewhere and do more grassroots and stuff, and then, with the levels of deportations that are happening, now it’s become more of a lobbying, representatives, behind the scenes work. To try and actually get some solid policy change.
HL: How would you say that that your interactions with sort of the people involved with policy change have shifted over the past couple years, or shifted in response to things that are happening on the national level, if they have? Or if it’s kind of felt the same for the past couple of years.
JS: Well, I would say DACA was a big game-changer. Even though it’s not a temporary-I mean, it’s not a permanent policy, there were a lot of different things that we considered because of DACA. We talked to a lot of attorneys, we talked to a lot of professors, and kind of seeing how that would affect, as far as the tuition equity issue-and the thing is that it comes down to all these technicalities, but because a DACA recipient is federally recognized as a resident, legally, there could be certain things that could be pushed for that. So, but apparently, it’s also–they’re not recognized as domicile holders within the state, and so then it’s kind of like, they’re pushing but–within the community college system, it’s been-they’ve actually allowed DACA students to have in-state tuition, which is awesome. And so DACA was a new kind of thing where we started trying to see what legal path we could take now that they have some sort of legal presence. And that was kind of a new technique that we’re using. It’s about to be renewed, the renewal kind of logistics and steps just came out, and it’s very obscure how they’re going to renew this, and in very fine print they say that you have to renew it four months before it expires, which a lot of people will not know about, and there has to be a big publicity push about it. So the only groundbreaking federal policy–because North Carolina has not done anything policy related to help–but was DACA, federally. So we catered to that, we paid a lot of attention to that, and we tried to make sure that as many people as we knew, or as many people as we could reach, applied, received it. And because of DACA a lot of people have been able to go to community college, and kind of start that way, so that was a big thing that we were hoping. And now I think the main goal is to maintain DACA, because after President Obama is out of office, it could or it could not stay. It’s up to the next presidents, because it’s an executive issue, to keep it or get rid of it. So now the big push is kind of getting voters, and getting awareness out that this is being removed in the election next year, but now, how to keep it alive.
HL: As a-sort of wearing your student advocate, I guess, your student advocate hat, what is your goal for this work? What are you pushing it for? Is it to raise awareness, is it to change policy, is it to help people access resources, and has that changed at all?
JS: I would say, like, the journey, when I started, I was not very knowledgeable about what was going on, and really it wasn’t–there wasn’t much policy-wise going on. So when I started my goal was advocacy, because if it meant that if I can change someone’s mind about their opinion about this issue, they’re likely to go talk to someone else about it, and they’re likely to go talk to someone else about it, and that’s-that’s how you change people’s minds.
HL: So raising awareness advocacy.
JS: Right, that was the beginning of it. When we had the hope that through DACA there could be tuition equity, it was more of a policy-you know, equity was what we worked towards. So it has definitely changed. My goal now, I would say, would be to find new leadership for SUIE to continue, I think they do the best work that they can, with the scholarship, the SUIE scholarship, you know, we’ve had a student go to NC State, and a student go to UNC Greensboro. And at the end of the day, with how grim policy looks, changing one person’s lives is like, the best we could do, and the most rewarding. So the scholarship has been a big thing. We’re currently working with UNC faculty to establish an institutional scholarship, one that’s fully funded, yearly, so, at the end of the day I think the immediate goal right now is to get undocumented students to Carolina. To make Carolina accessible for students. Because at the end of the day, these are the students that are going to be public policy minors, or majors, poli sci majors that come out and work in the legislature, and make the change, but they’re the ones who’s stories matter. Dually working with representatives and doing what we can there, but I can personally make more change within my time with one student at a time, two students at a time, and it really-it’s what makes all the difference, I think.
HL: Are there relationships that you have had as a student advocate, or partnerships, that you think student advocates can have that are really important, and are there ones that you think that are missing to do the kind of work that you all want to do?
JS: Can you specify relationships? What do you mean?
HL: People that you would work with, so like, as allies or in terms of relationships with people at the university, in the legislature, students in other states, I don’t know.
JS: Yeah.
HL: So other stakeholders broadly that you think it’s been really important that you work with, or that you didn’t work with, and that you wish you did.
JS: I think it’s been really important to work with-obviously, campus stakeholders, because we’ve been pushing so much for accessibility here on this campus. And since-especially since we went really broad with awareness, broader with policy, and then we’ve ended up just coming right back home, and make–focusing, at least making this tiny world of Carolina accessible and knowledgeable about immigration in general. Working with campus stakeholders has been really important, working with other undocumented student organizations across the state that can kind of bring that knowledge here, or vice versa, has been incredibly important. I’ve learned so much from them. And, yeah, really thankful for them, and working with attorneys, immigration attorneys that do amazing work for, essentially free, working deportation cases where they know they will get no money, but they do it because they believe it’s the right thing to do. They’ve been great because it’s become such a–I never knew I’d be so involved in the ins and outs of policies, and kind of understanding what that’s going to mean, so they were huge in advocacy. Really to be informed in every facet is the most important thing. I’d say the thing that–what’s missed, what’s been missing for me, has been probably interconnectedness across the state and across other states. It would have been great to have been coordinating through larger spaces of–larger groups of people, and outside of the state and say, in Georgia, Alabama, and North Carolina today, this is going to happen at the same time. So not really enough leaders out there that are public, and contact us, kind of networking throughout. But that’s kind of getting started now through the One State, One Rate campaign, we have a few other campuses that have joined, but definitely branching out if it’s such a big cause–and it’s the same in any advocacy, you don’t – you want to coordinate with other people. It makes it more powerful that way.
HL: Yeah, absolutely. You’ve talked about some of the different challenges in doing this work. Were there any that were really unexpected, you know, if you could give yourself several years ago a heads up when you started doing this that, hey, this is going to be really hard or this is going to be really difficult, what-what would you say?
JS: Unfortunately, some of the most unexpected issues in advocacy became egos within the larger groups. There’s a lot of wonderful groups that do a lot of wonderful work across the state, and you know, some people have been at it way longer than others, and because of that some people felt entitled to certain things than others. You know, when some event gets more media than another event and you’re coordinating with groups across the state, it was real-a very unexpected kind of struggle that I personally have never wanted to deal with. And yeah, that was really unexpected, so I think to my early self, be more diplomatic, be more-coordinate well, and really don’t pay mind to people who aren’t in it for the cause, but who are in it for other reasons.
HL: Do you see that from any particular kind–do you see it from students, do you see it from people who work in non-profits, do you see it from everyone?
JS: I mean, I haven’t really seen it from students. [pause] Yeah, I mean, it was a little bit of–it was a little bit of everything, I mean, in different instances it was different people. I mean, there were non-profits, just general statewide organizations that work with this, and then, we were kind of like the little campus group that was doing work and so [pause] yeah, I mean, I really believe that any and any, all and any events are things that are bringing attention to this issue in North Carolina under the right light deserve all the praises. It’s not really about a person or a name. And that was one thing that I wasn’t–you know, the politics. People are involved in advocacy and people will not always think alike as to how things have to be done, so I really thought it was just like, everyone was one hundred–my naïve self thought it was cool, on the same page, moving forward on the same road. And it’s not really, you know, with bad intentions, when there are misunderstandings, but I didn’t think much about the group aspect of working outside of my own little campus group. We’re kind of like a little family, we’ve always been working fine and great, but yeah.
HL: What do you think, having done this for a while and sort of graduating now, and leaving SUIE to other people, what will you tell them about their role? What do you think is the role that student advocates should be playing in the space of immigrant advocacy in North Carolina?
JS: I think advocacy and raising awareness is always going to continue, it’s always going to be a main thing, and that’s always something that they should focus on. I–we actually just chose our new co-chairs for next year, which is exciting, and they’re both first-year and second year, and these students-neither of them are immigrants even, not that you need to be, but, they’re so passionate, so into the work. All I’m going to tell them is keep raising awareness, you know, every person that you talk to and change their minds about this issue is a win for the day. And working with the people that are involved in the issue that are undocumented is incredibly important. Learning. I just think, when I got into this, I knew nothing. I knew negative of nothing. And not that I know enough now, but I learned as I went along, you just go, and you jump in, and you delve in, and you ask the questions, even if you don’t know anything about it, you learn from the people that you meet. And there’s a lot of great people out there doing work, but don’t-don’t be afraid to just ask, and get to know, get to know how to do a better job, and learn, stay open, yeah. Working in a group is always-you just have to be transparent, and–especially with immigration advocacy, there’s so much controversy, you know, some people are calling it the new civil rights movement, and it’s neck in neck with marriage equality and all of that and both issues, you know, even finding a way to link both issues and help each other move forward, although I think probably immigration is-has way more to go, a longer way to go than marriage equality. Marriage equality is getting a little wind, which is exciting. But, but yeah. The future will tell, I don’t know.
HL: My last question, what are you going to do now, now that you’re leaving university? How do you stay involved, how do you think your involvement in advocacy is going to stay the same or change?
JS: Yeah, I’ve been thinking about that a lot, actually. Because my, you know, what I study is completely unrelated. You know, a biology major is nothing to do with immigration. And the thing is, immigration advocacy and work has never been something that I did for a degree or for money, obviously. So I don’t think it will be difficult to find ways to stay involved. And the friendships that I’ve made and the people that I’ve met that are incredibly passionate about this issue, I will never lose. So, I think probably right after graduation, I should focus on my career for a little bit, but you know, if they ever need me for anything, I’ll be right in, or if I ever–you know, policy changes, and things need to be done, I’ll jump right in. There’s always organizing to be done, there’s always new things happening in advocacy, that’s just how it is. And I think once you meet the people that are involved, you’re always in the loop, so, I would like to stay involved-I’ve never been [pause], yeah, I’ve never been passionate about something this way. So I hope I stay involved and do the work that I can. And who knows, I mean, I would not be opposed to working in lobbying. I’ve never taken a class in that, but if it helps the issue moving forward, and especially-I mean, not especially but it personally affects me. I’m really curious as to how my future is going to fold out. I would like to stay in the United States of America [pause] beautiful place, so I’ll have to see how all that pans out. There’s never a certainty in–in this issue. Yeah.
HL: Cool. Thanks so much for taking the time.
JS: Thank you.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Estudiantes; Activistas por la justicia social
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Jane Smith (pseudónimo) habla sobre su participación en asuntos relacionados a migración y el panorama más amplio del trabajo de los activistas estudiantiles en el área de inmigración en Carolina del Norte. Ella comparte historias de su trabajo con Estudiantes Unidos por la Igualdad de los Inmigrantes (SUIE, por sus siglas en inglés) en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill y sus observaciones de las dificultades de trabajar con la población indocumentada en Carolina del Norte. En particular, ella encuentra que la falta de un liderazgo central es un reto, y ella discute cómo los diferentes sectores interesados en el tema en el estado pudieran trabajar más efectivamente juntos. Desde su perspectiva, el panorama de activismo en Carolina del Norte se ha transformado en los años recientes, de un trabajo exclusivamente de concientización y defensa, a incluir un enfoque en las políticas, en vista de las políticas federales como la orden ejectiva de Acción Diferida (DACA, por sus siglas en inglés). La abogacía también ha cambiado, ya que cada vez más estudiantes indocumentados se están abriendo acerca de su estatus migratorio y han decidido abogar por sí mismos; esto, sin embargo, a veces crea tensión cuando cuestiona el rol de los diferentes aliados en el movimiento.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Jane Smith, pseud., por Hetali Lodaya, 01 Abril 2014, R-0698, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Activismo; Ciudadanía e inmigración; Educación; Comunidades receptoras; Movimiento de jóvenes 'Soñadores' y Acción Diferida
Es: Transcripción
Hetali Lodaya: This is Hetali Lodaya. I’m interviewing Jane, which is a pseudonym, on April 1st, 2014, on the 2nd floor of the Campus Y at UNC-Chapel Hill. So let’s just start with some background. Can you talk about where you’re from and how long you’ve been in North Carolina?
Jane Smith: Yes. I was born in Peru, I lived there until I was about nine or so, moved to the US in 2000 [pause] 2001, about? It was a long time ago, but I’ve been in North Carolina since, I’ve been in North Carolina for eight years now. So, the longest I’ve ever been anywhere.
HL: Can you give a little bit of background on your family that’s here in North Carolina, and that’s maybe still in other places?
JS: Yeah, so my immediate family lives in North Carolina, my parents, my siblings, but the rest of my family, uncles, aunts, cousins, all live back in Peru.
HL: And, just sort of describing your involvement in advocacy work, can you give a little background on where it began, and what kinds of things you’ve been involved in?
JS: Right, so, I’m undocumented, which for years I didn’t think really meant anything. I guess when you’re younger, when you’re a child, your parents are exposed to the bulk of what that situation means and I was really privileged at how my parents handled the situation. Working three jobs a day, and never really acting any different at home, still being great parents. I went to public school, it was all normal. And I guess it really kind of hit me when I turned, what was it, fourteen, fifteen, and I had to get a permit and I was able to get my permit, but by the time I got my permit, my driving permit, North Carolina legislation had changed to where you needed a social security number to get anything driving-related. So I could not get a license, and the rest of my peers got a license, and that was really the first time that the situation kind of hit me personally. It struck me as incredibly unfair, and after so many years of not being exposed to it at all, I really didn’t know what to make of it, so it was more of a confusion time. Then coming to college was I guess the next big step that really kind of differentiated me from everyone else that I had become friends with in my lifetime in North Carolina. It’s easy as the fact that everyone would be applying freely and applying to financial aid or whatever, whatever way they could afford to go to school, and those options were just not available to me. When I was, what was it, like eighteen, I was faced with the decision in which I’d gotten into all the schools that I’d applied for, but I simply could not pay for any of them. So I was faced with the decision of okay, right now, do I leave the country? Because I will go to college, whether it’s here or Peru or wherever. So, do I leave the country and face not seeing my family for ten years, because of the ten year bar, or do I stay here and, I guess, try to get some sort of job and try to pay my way through community college. And then miraculously, I was able to get a scholarship, a private scholarship, that covered my attendance at Carolina. And I felt like that was a sign. I felt like I’d been really confused and kind of useless, and the bigger picture of what this immigration debacle is in the United States [pause], and I felt like coming here meant, you’ve got to do something with this, more than just go to class. So I guess that’s kind of what pushed me to seek out, especially in the Chapel Hill area, what was currently being done with students like me. I actually had another friend who was undocumented, and he was openly undocumented, and that to me was a completely foreign, new concept. I met him my first year, is when I met him. He had gone to State and had dropped out because he couldn’t afford it, and he told me, you know, there’s actually this organization at Carolina, and they work with immigration advocacy on campus, and you should go to their meetings, they meet this time, and he didn’t even go to Carolina. And I was like, ok, yeah, yeah, you know, I’ll go. And that’s how I got involved with SUIE first, so yeah, I guess that’s background, kind of how it all started.
HL: And can you describe what kinds of work you did, you’ve done, with SUIE?
JS: Right, so, SUIE is Students United for Immigrant Equality here on campus, and when I joined, we were about two years old. Very new organization, and the way immigration work is done in North Carolina, you have obviously a lot of levels, like lobbying, anywhere from grassroots to lobbying, to going to DC and trying to figure things out over there, which our other co-chair does. But when we started we were fairly new, so we focused more on doing events on campus that kind of raised awareness about the misconceptions that people have about your day-to-day immigrant, or specifically your day-to-day undocumented immigrant. My first year, it was a year or two after the Trail of Dreams, the walkers from Florida that walked all the way to DC, and that was one of the first instances of having openly undocumented students saying, hey, I’m not a criminal, I’m educated, and I want to be a part of this society, I’ve lived here, I’ve grown up here. So that was kind of the regime change that we were at at that point. Because up until then, I think, immigration work had been a lot of work done by allies, that, they said, you know, we stand for undocumented people and we really believe that they deserve these human rights to education, to health, health insurance, and things like that. But when I joined it was kind of a change of undocumented people themselves coming out and saying, this is who I am, I speak English, I’m here, I’m part of your society. You know, every person knows, directly or indirectly, an undocumented person, there’s 11 million of us out there. So our other co-chair, he was openly undocumented at the time, and it was an interesting dynamic for me personally because I wasn’t, and seeing all of these people come out. So we worked with the Immigrant Youth Forum, a local high school student group from Carrboro, and they’re high school students who are undocumented, and they’re juniors, seniors, and the struggle of trying to transition into college. And they would come and have coming out rallies at the Pit, where they would, you know, with a megaphone, say, hey, my name is so-and-so, I’m this old, and I am Carolina born and bred, but I will not be going here because of this policy, essentially. And we started getting a great response, and people-it was a new way of doing things, people were really kind of taken by it, and we said, hey, you know, we should have a big thing once a semester and see what the interest is in people, and maybe raise funds for a scholarship. And so the year that I joined we did our first Immigration Awareness Week with a big banquet, where we brought Jose Antonio Vargas to speak. He is an undocumented journalist who now is a big advocate, and does amazing work, but we got him before he was famous, so he was cheap. But thanks to him, and thanks to his help and the banquet, we raised money, it was like 1500 dollars, nothing huge, but still could pay for a semester or so of community college. It’s something, anything, could help. So that’s how we started, and from there we’ve continued to do that in the past three years, and we’ve also kind of taken up the tuition equity campaigning battle. We took that from a different aspect, we would meet with stakeholders on campus. We really believed that Carolina, specifically being the flagship school of public education, should be accessible to everyone, if nowhere else in North Carolina. And you try to approach it through the chancellor, and through stakeholders, and it was a battle. It still is, but we launched the One State, One Rate campaign, which gained public-public attention, because nothing like that had come out from Carolina before. And it was during this time that I came out also as undocumented. That–you know, I think it helped, and I hope it helped, and I, since then I’ve been openly okay with talking about it, and I think it really does change the perspectives when you meet someone that is undocumented. So we’ve been working with the One State, One Rate campaign, since it has spread out to NC State, UNC-Charlotte, and UNC-Asheville. They’re doing kind of local work through the campaign on their campuses, but the idea is that if we spark enough ruckus in enough campuses, then the decision making will be kind of pushed by educators. We want to make this an education issue, though the One State, One Rate campaign, so tuition equity has kind of been our focus lately.
HL: I remember being there at one of those rallies in the pit, it was really special. Talking about that change in how advocacy work is done, shifting from allies to the students and the people themselves doing that advocacy, can you talk about how those two pieces of who you are, the fact that you’re a student and the fact that you’re an undocumented student, how do you think they affect your interactions with all of these stakeholders? With legislators, people in the university?
JS: Interestingly enough, there’s upsides and downsides of being any player in advocacy work. If you are an ally, who is pushing for tuition equity, you will have stakeholders who maybe believe you don’t have the credibility to speak on that issue because you’re not undocumented. Then you may have undocumented students themselves, who say, hey, we’re coming out now! We’re here, we have our own voices, don’t speak for us, speak with us. So it’s been an interesting shifting change because it’s created a lot of different mentalities as to how to work together now.
HL: How do you feel about that? Working with, or the role of people that are allies?
JS: Well, it’s been one of my biggest struggles because I was, in my opinion, I was cowardly for a long time. I’m not saying that people who don’t come out as undocumented are all cowards, but I felt that way, and I felt that seeing a fifteen-year-old undocumented high school student come out on a college campus and say, you know, this is my situation, I felt that was admirable, and I felt-that’s, those were the kind of stories that pushed me to come out as well. And I feel like allies are an incredibly important part of the movement. I feel like they are the ones who have the vote, at the end of the day. Not that we depend on them, and I feel like undocumented stories are obviously the core of it, but I’ve definitely experienced some backlash from the undocumented community to the ally community, within the movement. That’s been one of my biggest struggles in working in immigration advocacy in North Carolina, that you have all these allies who’s been at it for years, and yes, they’re not undocumented, but it speaks so highly of them that they spend so much time and they are so passionate about the cause that they’re out there doing what they can, organizing, and so I’m all for allies. I’m all for any and all people who want to move this forward. Because at the end of the day there’s a goal, and I think scattering amongst the ranks isn’t really the way to move forward together, so yeah, I’m all for allies. A lot of my best friends have been my best supporters, and they’re not undocumented.
HL: Yeah, absolutely, and sorry, I kind of side tracked you from the original question, of the pieces of your identity affecting your role in advocacy in the state of North Carolina.
JS: Right, so, as a student [pause] I’ve tried to, and I mean SUIE together, we’ve tried to, at least for the tuition equity battle, we’ve tried to paint this and make this an education accessibility issue. Not really like a bipartisan, political, us versus them issue, but simply the issue of public education should be accessible. And we’ve gained many, many stakeholders and many supporters that way, the UNC Faculty Council was one great win supporter. They said, yeah, we agree, and these are the representatives of faculty on campus, and they said yeah, we believe UNC should be accessible to all students who get in. I mean, that’s the bottom line, that these undocumented students are smart enough, capable enough, they’re getting into these universities, but it’s an economic limitation implemented by policy that’s not permitting them to do that. So, as a student, I like to paint it as an education equity accessibility issue. As an undocumented person, it’s been an interesting kind of identity personally, because my family is not open about their situation, they’re not happy that I’m open about my situation, they worry about it every day, and I know that it’s the same for every other person that’s openly undocumented. I want to talk about my story, I want to tell my story, because I think, at the end of the day, that’s what people remember. You don’t remember stats, you don’t really remember, oh, this amount of kids don’t get to go to college every year that are undocumented. You remember, oh, this is so-and-so, she’s a whatever major, she’s gone here for so many years, she does this, she’s done undergraduate research, she’s in the honors program, boom-boom-boom. That’s what you remember. So it’s been interesting personally, balancing how public I am about my personal experience in a way that protects my family, but in a way that also pushes the cause forward. It’s been interesting, and I’m sure everyone in that situation is in that kind of dilemma.
HL: Is it different in different situations depending on sort of who you’re speaking with, so if you’re speaking with somebody that’s a state legislator versus someone who is maybe working from a different side of the issue? Do you have to be a different advocate when you work with different communities?
JS: Yeah, I think different stakeholders, usually it comes down to either the economic, factual, rational argument, or the humanitarian, emotional side. And those are the two roles that I think every advocate has to play, but personally I’ve found that when I’m speaking to members of the Board of Governors, the Board of Trustees-not that they’re not there to cater to human rights and all of that, but they want to see the facts, they want to see the numbers, they want to-I wouldn’t sit there with them in a meeting and tell them, oh, you know, this is my story, this is my life dream to come to Carolina. And I mean, I could , and sometimes I do as part of an introduction, but the bulk of the conversation and the bulk of my pitch is going to be, this is the revenue that undocumented students could bring to the economy, were they to receive a diploma and be allowed to work. You know, undocumented students and immigrants pay taxes. Property taxes they don’t get to opt out of, and a lot of them pay income taxes as well, without receiving the benefits. And you know, a lot of these kinds of arguments, they don’t even know that. So usually that kind of rational, logistic argument works better with board members, politicians, something that when people on campus usually-like students groups , when we have events or even the Faculty Council was a great one, or when we pitched at the Campus Y, or for the DTH, those are more telling our stories because we’re relating to other students. And so students can relate to wanting to go to college, to wanting to have equal opportunity, to wanting to go to college. So yeah, on one I’m more the educated advocate and the student, and the other, I’m kind of more, my personal story and how much of an exception I am to the rule of most people who are not able to make it here.
HL: Talking about your family’s concerns, so, looking at the immigrant community as a stakeholder group, do you feel like you have to do advocacy work sort of within the community as well, in terms of getting people to be involved, to share their stories, to want to do to do this kind of a thing? What is that like, working with the people that this affects?
JS: So, what I’ve found is that coming out, you know, we call it coming out, there isn’t anything else to call it, is a very, very personal thing. And so there really isn’t an advocacy space out there to advocate for other people to come out with their stories, because if they come out when they’re not ready, it’ll be really, really difficult for them to deal with. You have to be ready for the backlash from your family, you have to be ready for all the people looking at you like you’re a martian. You have to be ready for what that entails, and if you’re not ready, it won’t work. So, it’s a very personal decision to do that. But working with the immigrant community, unfortunately, there’s still a lot of fear, and getting–I remember, last semester, we did a DACA seminar. So, Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals is a policy that just passed, well not just passed, I guess it’s been a year and a half now, but this was kind of a temporary asylum from deportation for undocumented students ages fifteen to thirty. It was an Executive Order, kind of like Obama’s relief because of all the pressure he had been getting for any sort of immigration reform, which, you know, an actual immigration reform bill didn’t go anywhere in the House. So there were a lot of technicalities involved with this process, and it was available to a lot of undocumented immigrants out there, and so we wanted to have a seminar with attorneys present, to invite the community, and show them how this had to be done because you needed to submit so much documentation, proving your residence, proving that you’re a good person and everything, and then you also had to pay a $475 fee, which is a lot of money to some people, especially undocumented immigrants. So we had this seminar with all of the resources, and we barely had a show of the immigrant community. And it was a two day event, and on the first day, we kept asking people that did come, and we said, why-because we advertised broadly, in different churches, in safe spaces, and we were like, why are you here, why aren’t people coming? And they kept saying, well, you brought an attorney. You know, you brought an attorney, we thought there were going to be cops, we thought–there’s just a lot of fear with any help offered. There’s not really a trust relationship. So I think the work that needs to be done within the immigrant community is showing them, you know, there’s really nothing to fear, especially when it’s resources, but there’s a lot of fear around working with this issue. The next day we had more people show up, because you know, we were like, it’s just us! So it’s really cool and you know, they were having legal counseling for free, which a lot of them wouldn’t even know how to go about finding those resources, so, we had a lot more come the next day, so that was good. So, yeah, a lot of fear in the immigrant community, especially to push them to work in advocacy, I think it’s-we have a long way to go in that.
HL: What do you think it will take to get more people to be willing to be involved, not even to the extent of coming out if they’re undocumented, but just wanting to be involved and wanting to participate in that way, in North Carolina in particular, and what you’ve seen?
JS: Yeah, I think it’s a big generational gap, first of all. So you have the parents, who are exposed to discrimination in the workplace, who, I mean, are paid awful salaries, it’s really difficult to envision them having hope for the situation, based on their day-to-day lives. So I think the tightening of policies in North Carolina is what has pushed this new generation, because it’s a younger generation, of undocumented immigrants that are advocating openly and rallying and having “undocugraduations” at the General Assembly and things like that. It’s the new generation that’s saying you know what, we’re fed up, we deserve better, and right now we can’t drive, we can’t work, we can’t do anything, and you claim we’re not members, we’re not involved in the economic society, and we can’t take part as Americans, but you’re literally not letting us do anything. We’d like to, but we can’t. So, I’m not saying that tightening the policies was a good thing, that making them worse was a good thing, but it is what has pushed a response. In fact, when DACA came out, under DACA, it was required to give licenses to undocumented people as a part of DACA. And North Carolina was the only state that refused to do so. And that was one of the biggest unanimous pushes that North Carolina ever saw from the undocumented community. And this was everyone, because, it’s fifteen to thirty, so it also included some adults, parents, and they were like, absolutely not. And their allies rose, and there were rallies, there were protests, and finally North Carolina said ok, fine, we’ll do it, but we’ll give you a fuchsia mark on your licenses, so that everyone knows you’re undocumented. And then that was even worse, that pissed off not only undocumented people, not only their allies, but anyone who’s ever been a minority, who was like you know, that’s like the new Star of David. That’s what people were calling it. They were infuriated. And that’s really what hit a chord with every minority in North Carolina, and fortunately that ended up not happening. They ended up giving licenses – it still says on there, legal presence, no lawful status, but it at least it doesn’t have a huge fuchsia mark that says, you know, your expiration date of being in the country or something like that. It was ridiculous. So–I think that people are fed up, and I think that it’s escalating. I think there was a really big momentum when the immigration reform bill was in the House, was in the Senate, that’s when most things started kind of appearing all across the country, most movements. But to be honest, what I think it’s going to take is a unifying leader under this movement. When you think of any movement that was ever successful, especially nationally with, rights related, human rights related, you really need a leader or a group of leaders, and the immigration movement has been very scattered, not only in North Carolina but across the country, because there is no-not one person or not one group of people that is willing to come out there and say, you know, we’re out here standing for this cause, and everyone–today’s going to be national undocumented immigrant day, let’s boycott. No-no one’s working on the farms today, things like that. It’s just a lot of risk, that there’s too much fear to take right now.
HL: Can you talk about over the past couple of years, in North Carolina specifically, some of this tightening that has happened, things that you’ve seen, how has it changed interactions and relationships within the advocacy community? Are there different groups of people that you work with more, are there different groups of people that care about different issues? How is it – how has sort of the political change, I guess, in North Carolina affected what it means to do advocacy?
JS: Yeah, no, that’s a great question. So I would say when we first started we worked more, as I said, very, very locally. Within campus, we worked with the Chancellor, we worked with other student groups, we worked with local Chapel Hill-Carrboro groups, thinking that the change could come from the inside out. There was no hope policy-wise at the time. You know, three years ago, it was kind of like the lowest of the low. As far as policy goes. And you know, we were thinking, if we could get one powerful voice to be public about this, it’s going to have to-as I said, some sort of leader is going to have to spring other people that already support this issue, and we found that really these kind of public figures, such as the Chancellor, or even the Board of Trustees, were mostly just that, public figures, and actually they couldn’t make policy change on campus as far as tuition equity. Now, it’s become more of a lobbying issue. Which is not my favorite part of advocacy-I find politics enraging. But now it’s become more about finding Democrat and Republican supporters, you know, representatives that support this issue, drafting a bill together. We’re in the process of doing that, and, I mean, so many bills have been drafted, so many bills have been introduced, but now it’s more about getting representative support in North Carolina so that we can get a big enough group to introduce some sort of bill, to have some sort of compromise, and starting from anywhere, you know, I believe we’re okay with providing tuition equity only for DACA recipients at first, and then trying to expand that, and then trying to expand that. I mean, the policy history in North Carolina has just been from bad to worse for undocumented students since I’ve lived here. It’s just increasingly just gotten worse. And that, I mean, that just pushed us to look elsewhere and do more grassroots and stuff, and then, with the levels of deportations that are happening, now it’s become more of a lobbying, representatives, behind the scenes work. To try and actually get some solid policy change.
HL: How would you say that that your interactions with sort of the people involved with policy change have shifted over the past couple years, or shifted in response to things that are happening on the national level, if they have? Or if it’s kind of felt the same for the past couple of years.
JS: Well, I would say DACA was a big game-changer. Even though it’s not a temporary-I mean, it’s not a permanent policy, there were a lot of different things that we considered because of DACA. We talked to a lot of attorneys, we talked to a lot of professors, and kind of seeing how that would affect, as far as the tuition equity issue-and the thing is that it comes down to all these technicalities, but because a DACA recipient is federally recognized as a resident, legally, there could be certain things that could be pushed for that. So, but apparently, it’s also–they’re not recognized as domicile holders within the state, and so then it’s kind of like, they’re pushing but–within the community college system, it’s been-they’ve actually allowed DACA students to have in-state tuition, which is awesome. And so DACA was a new kind of thing where we started trying to see what legal path we could take now that they have some sort of legal presence. And that was kind of a new technique that we’re using. It’s about to be renewed, the renewal kind of logistics and steps just came out, and it’s very obscure how they’re going to renew this, and in very fine print they say that you have to renew it four months before it expires, which a lot of people will not know about, and there has to be a big publicity push about it. So the only groundbreaking federal policy–because North Carolina has not done anything policy related to help–but was DACA, federally. So we catered to that, we paid a lot of attention to that, and we tried to make sure that as many people as we knew, or as many people as we could reach, applied, received it. And because of DACA a lot of people have been able to go to community college, and kind of start that way, so that was a big thing that we were hoping. And now I think the main goal is to maintain DACA, because after President Obama is out of office, it could or it could not stay. It’s up to the next presidents, because it’s an executive issue, to keep it or get rid of it. So now the big push is kind of getting voters, and getting awareness out that this is being removed in the election next year, but now, how to keep it alive.
HL: As a-sort of wearing your student advocate, I guess, your student advocate hat, what is your goal for this work? What are you pushing it for? Is it to raise awareness, is it to change policy, is it to help people access resources, and has that changed at all?
JS: I would say, like, the journey, when I started, I was not very knowledgeable about what was going on, and really it wasn’t–there wasn’t much policy-wise going on. So when I started my goal was advocacy, because if it meant that if I can change someone’s mind about their opinion about this issue, they’re likely to go talk to someone else about it, and they’re likely to go talk to someone else about it, and that’s-that’s how you change people’s minds.
HL: So raising awareness advocacy.
JS: Right, that was the beginning of it. When we had the hope that through DACA there could be tuition equity, it was more of a policy-you know, equity was what we worked towards. So it has definitely changed. My goal now, I would say, would be to find new leadership for SUIE to continue, I think they do the best work that they can, with the scholarship, the SUIE scholarship, you know, we’ve had a student go to NC State, and a student go to UNC Greensboro. And at the end of the day, with how grim policy looks, changing one person’s lives is like, the best we could do, and the most rewarding. So the scholarship has been a big thing. We’re currently working with UNC faculty to establish an institutional scholarship, one that’s fully funded, yearly, so, at the end of the day I think the immediate goal right now is to get undocumented students to Carolina. To make Carolina accessible for students. Because at the end of the day, these are the students that are going to be public policy minors, or majors, poli sci majors that come out and work in the legislature, and make the change, but they’re the ones who’s stories matter. Dually working with representatives and doing what we can there, but I can personally make more change within my time with one student at a time, two students at a time, and it really-it’s what makes all the difference, I think.
HL: Are there relationships that you have had as a student advocate, or partnerships, that you think student advocates can have that are really important, and are there ones that you think that are missing to do the kind of work that you all want to do?
JS: Can you specify relationships? What do you mean?
HL: People that you would work with, so like, as allies or in terms of relationships with people at the university, in the legislature, students in other states, I don’t know.
JS: Yeah.
HL: So other stakeholders broadly that you think it’s been really important that you work with, or that you didn’t work with, and that you wish you did.
JS: I think it’s been really important to work with-obviously, campus stakeholders, because we’ve been pushing so much for accessibility here on this campus. And since-especially since we went really broad with awareness, broader with policy, and then we’ve ended up just coming right back home, and make–focusing, at least making this tiny world of Carolina accessible and knowledgeable about immigration in general. Working with campus stakeholders has been really important, working with other undocumented student organizations across the state that can kind of bring that knowledge here, or vice versa, has been incredibly important. I’ve learned so much from them. And, yeah, really thankful for them, and working with attorneys, immigration attorneys that do amazing work for, essentially free, working deportation cases where they know they will get no money, but they do it because they believe it’s the right thing to do. They’ve been great because it’s become such a–I never knew I’d be so involved in the ins and outs of policies, and kind of understanding what that’s going to mean, so they were huge in advocacy. Really to be informed in every facet is the most important thing. I’d say the thing that–what’s missed, what’s been missing for me, has been probably interconnectedness across the state and across other states. It would have been great to have been coordinating through larger spaces of–larger groups of people, and outside of the state and say, in Georgia, Alabama, and North Carolina today, this is going to happen at the same time. So not really enough leaders out there that are public, and contact us, kind of networking throughout. But that’s kind of getting started now through the One State, One Rate campaign, we have a few other campuses that have joined, but definitely branching out if it’s such a big cause–and it’s the same in any advocacy, you don’t – you want to coordinate with other people. It makes it more powerful that way.
HL: Yeah, absolutely. You’ve talked about some of the different challenges in doing this work. Were there any that were really unexpected, you know, if you could give yourself several years ago a heads up when you started doing this that, hey, this is going to be really hard or this is going to be really difficult, what-what would you say?
JS: Unfortunately, some of the most unexpected issues in advocacy became egos within the larger groups. There’s a lot of wonderful groups that do a lot of wonderful work across the state, and you know, some people have been at it way longer than others, and because of that some people felt entitled to certain things than others. You know, when some event gets more media than another event and you’re coordinating with groups across the state, it was real-a very unexpected kind of struggle that I personally have never wanted to deal with. And yeah, that was really unexpected, so I think to my early self, be more diplomatic, be more-coordinate well, and really don’t pay mind to people who aren’t in it for the cause, but who are in it for other reasons.
HL: Do you see that from any particular kind–do you see it from students, do you see it from people who work in non-profits, do you see it from everyone?
JS: I mean, I haven’t really seen it from students. [pause] Yeah, I mean, it was a little bit of–it was a little bit of everything, I mean, in different instances it was different people. I mean, there were non-profits, just general statewide organizations that work with this, and then, we were kind of like the little campus group that was doing work and so [pause] yeah, I mean, I really believe that any and any, all and any events are things that are bringing attention to this issue in North Carolina under the right light deserve all the praises. It’s not really about a person or a name. And that was one thing that I wasn’t–you know, the politics. People are involved in advocacy and people will not always think alike as to how things have to be done, so I really thought it was just like, everyone was one hundred–my naïve self thought it was cool, on the same page, moving forward on the same road. And it’s not really, you know, with bad intentions, when there are misunderstandings, but I didn’t think much about the group aspect of working outside of my own little campus group. We’re kind of like a little family, we’ve always been working fine and great, but yeah.
HL: What do you think, having done this for a while and sort of graduating now, and leaving SUIE to other people, what will you tell them about their role? What do you think is the role that student advocates should be playing in the space of immigrant advocacy in North Carolina?
JS: I think advocacy and raising awareness is always going to continue, it’s always going to be a main thing, and that’s always something that they should focus on. I–we actually just chose our new co-chairs for next year, which is exciting, and they’re both first-year and second year, and these students-neither of them are immigrants even, not that you need to be, but, they’re so passionate, so into the work. All I’m going to tell them is keep raising awareness, you know, every person that you talk to and change their minds about this issue is a win for the day. And working with the people that are involved in the issue that are undocumented is incredibly important. Learning. I just think, when I got into this, I knew nothing. I knew negative of nothing. And not that I know enough now, but I learned as I went along, you just go, and you jump in, and you delve in, and you ask the questions, even if you don’t know anything about it, you learn from the people that you meet. And there’s a lot of great people out there doing work, but don’t-don’t be afraid to just ask, and get to know, get to know how to do a better job, and learn, stay open, yeah. Working in a group is always-you just have to be transparent, and–especially with immigration advocacy, there’s so much controversy, you know, some people are calling it the new civil rights movement, and it’s neck in neck with marriage equality and all of that and both issues, you know, even finding a way to link both issues and help each other move forward, although I think probably immigration is-has way more to go, a longer way to go than marriage equality. Marriage equality is getting a little wind, which is exciting. But, but yeah. The future will tell, I don’t know.
HL: My last question, what are you going to do now, now that you’re leaving university? How do you stay involved, how do you think your involvement in advocacy is going to stay the same or change?
JS: Yeah, I’ve been thinking about that a lot, actually. Because my, you know, what I study is completely unrelated. You know, a biology major is nothing to do with immigration. And the thing is, immigration advocacy and work has never been something that I did for a degree or for money, obviously. So I don’t think it will be difficult to find ways to stay involved. And the friendships that I’ve made and the people that I’ve met that are incredibly passionate about this issue, I will never lose. So, I think probably right after graduation, I should focus on my career for a little bit, but you know, if they ever need me for anything, I’ll be right in, or if I ever–you know, policy changes, and things need to be done, I’ll jump right in. There’s always organizing to be done, there’s always new things happening in advocacy, that’s just how it is. And I think once you meet the people that are involved, you’re always in the loop, so, I would like to stay involved-I’ve never been [pause], yeah, I’ve never been passionate about something this way. So I hope I stay involved and do the work that I can. And who knows, I mean, I would not be opposed to working in lobbying. I’ve never taken a class in that, but if it helps the issue moving forward, and especially-I mean, not especially but it personally affects me. I’m really curious as to how my future is going to fold out. I would like to stay in the United States of America [pause] beautiful place, so I’ll have to see how all that pans out. There’s never a certainty in–in this issue. Yeah.
HL: Cool. Thanks so much for taking the time.
JS: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-0698 -- Smith, Jane, pseud.
Description
An account of the resource
Jane Smith (pseudonym), speaks about her involvement with issues related to migration, and the broader landscape of student activism work related to immigration in North Carolina. She shares stories from her work with Students United for Immigrant Equality at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and her observations on the challenges of working with the undocumented population in North Carolina. In particular, she finds the lack of central leadership challenging, and discusses how different stakeholders in the state might be able to work more effectively together. From her perspective, the landscape of activism in North Carolina has shifted over the past few years from solely awareness and advocacy work, to include more of a policy focus, in light of federal policies such as Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA). Advocacy has also changed as more and more undocumented students are becoming open about their status and choosing to advocate for themselves; this, however, sometimes creates tension when considering the role of allies in the movement.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
01 April 2014
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
R0698_Audio.mp3
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/20192">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/e5bc34bbc5db2ecfda0487ca15126394.mp3
faca8286052cec07c1435e073866a535
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/c33b449983421206147bded2c977def5.pdf
d4b4c44b1eb5423edf59f315d010883d
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0699
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
25 June 2014
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Vicente, Emilio.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Students
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1991
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Male
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Guatemala
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Siler City -- Chatham County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-90.25 15.5),1991,1;POINT(-79.46224310000002 35.7234734),1997,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Gill, Hannah E. (Hannah Elizabeth), 1977-
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Emilio Vicente discusses his and his family’s immigration experience as K’iche-speaking Mayans in Guatemala coming to Siler City, North Carolina in 1997. He discusses his early education as the only K’iche speaker in his public schools and feeling different from Spanish-speaking Latinos in his school. He talks about how his family emphasized learning English and Spanish over preserving K’iche, and how he regrets losing his “first culture.” He talks about how his father was paralyzed in a workplace accident which influenced his parents’ decision to return to Guatemala. He discusses his activism to gain greater equality and access to education for undocumented students, like himself. He talks about working on the national United We Dream campaign in Washington, D.C. and bringing the methods he learned there to the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill campus, where he started the One State One Rate campaign, to get in-state tuition for undocumented students, and Students United for Immigrant Equality.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Emilio Vicente by Hannah Gill, 25 June 2014, R-0699, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/20189
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Activism; Citizenship and immigration; Education; Identity; Indigenous populations
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Hannah Gill: OK, well lets’ get started. This is Hannah Gill and I am here interviewing Emilio Vicente. It is June 25th 2014.We are here on campus at UNC-Chapel Hill. Emilio, thank you so much for being here today.
Emilio Vicente: Thanks for having me.
HG: I enjoyed listening to Frank Stasio’s interview back in the spring, and I think that’s a great jumping off point for this interview. I was wondering if maybe you could start by telling me about why your family came to join your father in Siler City, and I think it was in 1992?
EV: ‘97
HG: 1997
HG: Yeah tell me a little about…
EV: Yeah, so my family is-- My dad only got a seventh grade education, and my mom didn’t go to school at all, so when they lived in Guatemala, it was really hard for them to live financially, or they struggled a lot financially because they didn’t have their resources. My dad would travel all over the country in Guatemala, trying to make as much income for our family as possible, and unfortunately it wasn’t enough and so he eventually decided to come to the US in 1992 because he thought he would have a better opportunity of sending money back, you know, provide better for my family. And so, yeah he moved to the US, he moved around. He did a lot of like migrant, agricultural farm-working related jobs, during that time, and so, he eventually settled in Siler City, North Carolina in ‘97 and because of the poultry plants in Siler City. Siler City was a booming town for a poultry plant, and all of these agricultural jobs, and so he eventually decided to send for my mom and I because he wanted, you know, to see mom again. And also I hadn’t seen him since I was, since I was born, and that was like a year after I was born that he had left, so I didn’t know him at all that well. And so, yeah, we moved, we both came to the US. We couldn’t apply for visas because it’s hard to get a visa if you’re poor and you don’t have an education and so, our only option, my dad’s also only option, was crossing the border, and that’s what we did. We crossed the Mexican and the US border, and we eventually came to Siler City and I grew up in Siler City. And I’ve gone through the whole education system from kindergarten through 12th grade.
HG: OK. Now can you tell me about your, I guess your parents’, home town in Guatemala? And where was that? You probably don’t remember much about it. (Laughs)
EV: Not really. (Laughs) It’s a small village; it’s called San Vicente ( ). It’s really small, it’s remote. It’s mainly all indigenous— that’s where they speak K’iche, the language that I grew up speaking, and basically it’s mostly kind of like an agricultural small, town/village and as far as I’m aware there wasn’t much business going on, so yeah you know people are really humble. Education I’d say was a commodity mostly geared towards men or boys. That’s mostly all I have about it ---- I don’t remember that much unfortunately.
HG: So, your grandfathers, and great grandfathers would have worked in agriculture?
EV: Yeah, they would be into farming, you know, growing their own crops and have had animals. We had some animals and crops as well. There wasn’t enough again.
HG: So, how did the Civil War in Guatemala impact your parents’ lives?
EV: So it definitely impacted my family’s life directly, and it was part of the reason that my dad actually came into the US, because he was seeking political asylum. Because my understanding is that my uncle, he was drafted into the army because of the Civil War and so you know, it was like--
HG: --Into the national army?
EV: I believe so. And so you know there was a great danger of other people in my family also being drafted. Where my dad was being there during part of the war, and so it’s likely. I don’t think, as far as I’m aware, no one in my family was most directly affected because of the Civil War. Obviously it impacted all of us, in Guatemala, and it was part of the reason that my dad decided to come to the US.
HG: He sought political asylum, but he was not successful in obtaining that?
EV: Yeah, right.
HG: So, do you have any idea of how he actually heard about Siler City? I mean, why Siler City? Obviously it had the poultry jobs.
EV: Yeah, I should ask. I don’t know. My belief, my uncles part of my-- Some of my other family members, some of my uncles, and cousins lived in Siler City. I believe that’s how he came to Siler City. I’m wondering the same thing. Kind of small town.
HG: So you were really small when you got here. Do you have any memories from Guatemala at all?
EV: I mean, I have images, kind of somewhat remembering what the house we lived in looked like. It was kind of like a brick house. We definitely had crops, I don’t know, we had sheep, and I don’t have unfortunately…
HG: Those are young memories.
EV: Yeah, yeah, young memories.
HG: What is your first memory from Siler City? From moving to--
EV: Yeah, well I remember that day when my dad, the day we arrived to Siler City, because I was very excited to be seeing my dad for the first time. I saw coming to the US as more--as an adventure because I was going to see my dad—whom I hadn’t seen since I was one. You obviously don’t remember anything when you’re one. So, yeah, it was exciting to see, as we were pulling up. He was outside, where he lived. And then he had on a --it was like a green plaid shirt and he had keys towards his hat and I believe his pants were, I want to say, they might have been green as well but I remember the shirt for sure , and so, yeah, was really exciting to see him for the first time.
HG: What about your first memories, what about growing up in Siler City and, you know, experiences of going to school, what was that like?
EV: Yeah, so I grew up speaking K’iche’ in Guatemala, and so when I came to the US I didn’t know English or Spanish. So I was put in ESL classes. So it was little bit harder, because you know, most ESL classes are for, most of them are Latinos, they speak Spanish, that’s not-- I mean it’s obviously hard adjusting, but it was even harder for me and my mother because she was also in the same position. She didn’t know that much Spanish. To say that the first few months was definitely an adjustment because it was completely different from what I was used to. And luckily we were able to surpass the language barrier, and I mean I’ve enjoyed going to Siler City Elementary. It’s definitely during that time, I believe North Carolina was going through a rapid migrant change, demographic change. You know, it had now crossed the south, especially North Carolina, and I’d say definitely Siler City. So you see a really great an example of what was happening, or has happened since. Because since then a lot of my classmates are more and more, were more majority Latino, you know. Yeah I think overall my experience was great. I was actually back in Siler City back three weeks ago and my niece was graduating from the fifth grade class of Siler City Elementary, so it’s really great to see the changes that have happened since I left Siler City Elementary. Now they have dual language classes where they teach you Spanish and English, like formally. It’s not an ESL, or it’s not Spanish class. It’s like a formal, educational setting where they’re talking in Spanish and English, where they teach you all the formal, you know, everything. So it was great to be there at the graduation ceremony and see little kids speaking in Spanish and English. And even the little white kids they were speaking perfect Spanish and I was blown away, like “Whoa, this is amazing!” So I kind of wish--I was definitely jealous. I wish that was there when I was there. I’ve been able to like overall like learn Spanish but it would have definitely been great. I think it’s a great task for me for what’s been happening in Siler City, for they’ve realized you know, it’s better to be bilingual to be monolingual. I’ve enjoyed that most people in Siler City have embraced the demographic change that has happened during my time there and since I’ve left, and I think it’s definitely an indication of overall where the country is going towards.
HG: Yeah, is so interesting. Where there other K’iche speakers in--apart from your family or at your school? Or did you feel like an outsider within Spanish-speaking communities in which you found yourself.
EV: Yeah, I definitely felt like I was an outsider during the first few years, because I knew other Guatemalans and they also spoke like dialects—no—languages. So I don't recall anyone out in my school who also spoke K’iche’, so it definitely made it harder.
HG: Was your family one the first families that came from your region and others came over? Or were you just--
EV: I would say, I would say I was probably one of the first to go through the education system. Like, overall, there were other families that spoke K’iche’. Again, my dad had family members in Siler City, so he would speak with them in K’iche’. But I’m pretty sure I might have been one of the very first few to have gone through the educational system. And it made it a little bit challenging, but also easier because I was in an educational setting. So it was definitely easier.
HG: OK. Very interesting. To continue talking about your heritage, your Mayan heritage, what is the significance for that in your family?
EV: Right.
HG: You know, now.
EV: Yeah. So I grew up. I don’t speak it anymore because my dad was really adamant about, “You should learn Spanish and English. Those are going to be what is going to make you successful.” And also because I definitely say that there’s a lot of racism in Latin America, maybe even more racism than there is in the US, towards indigenous peoples. So part of not identifying indigenous was because I think it felt shameful for people to say that because it kind of like made you feel less superior because you want to be the mestizo, like, you know, the white person. Overall, you want to have a good complexion, you don’t want to be treated, or judged because of your broken Spanish. I even remember my mom, I mean, she was definitely older when she came, so it was harder for her to learn Spanish, and I’m definitely amazed that she definitely learned it really well, but even then she had an accent, you could tell that she spoke Spanish. She had an accent and it wasn’t her native language, and so I definitely remember people making fun of her, or other Latinos making fun of her, because she couldn't express herself and I was really-- it made me frustrated and mad at people because they were judging me and my family because we couldn’t speak the language. But overall they were in the same position as we were, they were working class. They were--yeah, economically in the same position that we were in. I’m saying--
HG: It’s ironic--
EV: It’s really ironic. Even now, looking back and I don’t think--I think they’re in the same place that they were back as they are now, so.
HG: Who is they?
EV: All the people in Siler City, people in my home town, like other Latinos who were kind of like not that supportive of people who weren’t Spanish, like fully Spanish, speakers. And so, I’m saying all of this because it comes back into to the-- I grew up kind of like under this mindset I have to learn Spanish and English, I shouldn’t speak K’iche’ because it’s worthless, or it’s not going to help me in the future, and so---. It wasn’t until like four or five years ago, I realized that, “Oh wait I should be proud of my heritage because it means a lot and there are great people who, they are great people who are the indigenous and who have done amazing stuff. I think of Rigoberta Menchu, she’s like one of our most prominent indigenous people in the world, and so I shouldn’t be shameful at all of my heritage. So, I feel like, unfortunately, that’s the case. I feel like it might be the case for some, for people. Or other indigenous people, they don’t want to associate themselves that way, because it kind of makes you feel as less potentially. Or people might see you as less. But since I’ve learned to embrace-- One of the things that I really wish, going back, I would have been definitely would have been you know, having learned the language. I can understand it, but I can’t speak it anymore. It’s definitely frustrating so. I have my grandmother, luckily, fortunately, is still alive, but she only speaks K’iche’. She understands Spanish and so whenever I talk to her I’m speaking to her in Spanish and she’s speaking in K’iche’. So it’s kind of a weird dynamic, and I really wish that I could speak it or even write it. Because I think it would be great to emerge myself in my own culture. Because I definitely I don’t know my own culture, my first culture at all.
HG: And, because your parents now live in--they went back to Guatemala-- so it’s not like you have this available resource at your home. You know, you talked about your mother learning Spanish here in North Carolina and she obviously must have put a lot of time and energy into doing that. Why did she put the energy into that, as opposed to English?
EV: Right, well, she is definitely a smart person. I think I get my smarts from here. My dad is smart, but I think my mom is definitely smarter. I often ask, if she was the one that would have gotten an education, I think that my family would definitely be much more well-off. I definitely respect her. She’s really driven and she’s definitely influenced me a lot and ( ) because she comes from a poor family but she can do better math in her head than I can. It’s sad. I’ve gotten an education, and she didn’t get an education, and she can do math. Always I think of what would have happened if she had received a full education? You know, I think that would have been amazing to see. But I think the reason that learned both is that she lived in two worlds, Spanish and English. So, again most people she interacted with were Spanish-speakers. My cousins were mostly of the people she worked with, and in the poultry plants were also Latinos, that’s the only way that they could communicate. When she did come here, she kind of had a basic structure of the language, she didn’t start at zero. But again, it was so hard for her, and so, I think it was easier for her to learn Spanish at the time. And they also went at the community college in Siler City, they also taught English at night and in the evenings, and my mom and dad would go to those classes and so she also learned broken English. She can—like basic—she can count her numbers, she can—even if she can’t understand you fully, even though she can’t give you a full response, she could understand you. And she could answer you in English even if it was like a basic answer you would still know what she was trying to tell you. She definitely learned both, and she tried learning both as much as she could. They also bought at the time this really big program called Inglés sin Barreras—it was really huge and all over Univision--I don’t know if you recall but I’m pretty sure almost every Latino family had this program. We had this program because my parents wanted to learn English. Unfortunately, they didn’t have the time to do that. It’s one thing to try to learn it, but again, they’re working two jobs, and they would come home really exhausted. I definitely commend them, again. They at least tried. It is definitely easier said than done. I know they definitely put a lot of effort into learning and I definitely appreciate that.
HG: It’s extraordinary to try to learn not one, but two new languages while you’re working two jobs, at the same time. It’s pretty extraordinary. Did your family, besides your immediate relatives that lived here, did they ever seek out other folks from their home town? Or in different parts of North Carolina for getting together for holidays or social events?
EV: Not really, our families were just like more on our own.
HG: Pioneers?
EV: Basically. My dad and my mom had family members in other parts of the country. But they were mostly—. They were kind of the first to, along with my cousins and my dad’s brothers, to move into Siler City so there wasn’t much apart from my family. There wasn’t much communication from others outside of our family.
HG: You had mentioned in some of the other interviews how your father was injured in a workplace accident. What was his job that he did and how—. Tell me about that. How has this experience impacted you and your family?
EV: Yeah, so he used to work, he did a lot of jobs apart from poultry plants trying to make more of an income for our family. One of those jobs was working at a lumber company outside of Siler City. It was kind of nearby, maybe a 15-20 minute drive, and so he worked there for--I don’t know how long, but then he had an accident in 2001. This machine fell on him, and it broke his spinal cord. He hasn’t been able to walk since then. Obviously it definitely dramatically changed our life because my dad was now in a wheel chair. He was initially in the hospital for two weeks, in intensive care. And because I was the only one in my family to speak English, I was out of school for two weeks, to be with my parents interpreting as much as I could. I was eleven at the time, it was definitely kind of changing for me as well. So that accident was also really complicated because my dad was undocumented, and so it made it much more complicated for him to get workers’ compensation. He was eventually able to get it because we forced them to. They didn’t want to but we forced them to. So it just changed our dynamics again. I never, personally, I never really thought like this, of disabilities, because fortunately I have been very healthy. Everyone in my family was healthy, so no one in my family had any disabilities until my dad’s accident and so it definitely changed my perspective overall on what disabilities mean and just like someone in a wheelchair differently. So I think that in some way I definitely was appreciative of-- telling me something would have never ever experienced. I don’t think you would ever really know what it means until you have someone directly impacted by it--which is kind of like-- Obviously I wouldn’t want that to happen to anyone, but it does change your view on a lot of things. Overall, I would help my mom, when he finally came back to our house, I would help my mom. He couldn’t take a bath by himself anymore. We would have to take him into his wheelchair, from his bed, and to his wheelchair, into the bathroom. It was like a special bathroom that they built and so I would sometimes be up just up at midnight even though I had school the next day. My mom would wake me up because everyone else in my family was working. I was like, you know, the only that could help. She would wake me up whenever she needed help. Again, she’s the strongest person that I know because she was the one that-- she did everything. My brothers were also helping out, but they also had to work and my mom who was basically stopped everything and she somehow got through it. She’s definitely the strongest person who helped us, overall, in adjusting to all this.
HG: So your parents eventually decided to go back to Guatemala, and how did you and your brothers’ lives change after that?
EV: Yeah, so…
HG: How old were you?
EV: I was fifteen when they decided to go back. It’s actually been eight years, it’s been eight years in February. So they decided to go back mainly because of the accident. My dad, he always felt that he was on the verge of death, and so he always thought that maybe he was going to die soon and he wanted to see my grandmother, his mother, who he hadn’t seen in thirteen years at the time. She was also getting older. He said, “I don’t want to regret not seeing my mother”, and the only option he had was going back. There wasn’t any other option. So that and other decisions, other things kind of made it more and more likely for them to go back. So my parents told me, “Do you want to go with us? Or do you want to stay here with your oldest brother?” And on my end it was definitely a hard decision because I’ve always lived with my mom and dad, and so it was just weird thinking, “Whoa, what would I do without them?” But I also talked to my brothers, and my brothers were like, “You know, you have much better future here than you will have over there.” So that helped me, and I was also optimistic that maybe that I could be one of those success stories, like if I tried hard enough, maybe I could go to college. And maybe I could be the first one in my family to achieve that dream of going to college. So it was obviously it was a big gamble because it could have not worked out. So eventually I decided to stay, it obviously completely changed my life because my brothers are not my parents regardless of how supportive they are, it’s not the same thing. So, I was definitely much more independent which was in some way a little bit exciting, but also kind of, again, weird because I was used to seeing my dad and mom every day-- at the time I had a little sister who was like the only US-born person in our family. It was definitely weird adjusting to not seeing my mom, dad, or my little sister since then.
HG: Do you still have responsibilities- family responsibilities now, in addition to the work that you do? I mean, obviously as a college student you have a lot of responsibilities. But, yeah, do you still--
EV: What do you?
HG: Do you have to support your family? Do you feel obligated to stay in touch with them and how do you do that?
EV: Luckily I don’t have to support them financially. And I feel like they also realize that I’m not working at all so it would be kind hard for me to support them. So, in essence, I don’t do that. I’m much more kind of the opposite—most likely they’re going to be the ones supporting me because I’m kind of the broke person here. I use as much help as I can, sometimes. Apart from that, we do stay in touch and we do talk often in order to catch up. I feel like maybe if anything--
HG: By phone or do you use Skype?
EV: We’ve Skyped a couple of times, but it’s kind of hard. We’ve Skyped a couple of times but it’s mostly usually through phone. I feel that my overall responsibilities in my first few years, once I get a job, would be supporting my family financially. Hopefully, I can make it. I would see an income; that is definitely one of my goals. They sustain themselves, because they have a small store in San Vicente. They sell produce and other stuff. I’d love to be in a position where I can economically help them. One of my dreams would be to buy them a house. They already have a house, but—I don’t know. Give them something that I--to thank them for all they’ve done for me.
HG: I want to talk about all the incredible immigrant advocacy that you do outside of class, and I guess I can start by asking, was there a moment that really galvanized you to be so outspoken? It seems like from hearing about your story that you’ve had your consciousness raised your entire life, of a lot of different experiences. Consciousness about the challenges that you or your own family have faced and other immigrants as well. But was there a galvanizing moment? When did you really go into advocacy and become so outspoken?
EV: Right, definitely for sure it’s just my own personal immigrant story and that of my family’s that influenced me to be more active. I know that-- It might have been in 9th grade, I saw a segment the Primer Impacto which is Univision. It’s kind of like your regular big segment. Noticiero Univision was kind of like an hour long, also kind of program news of what’s happening across the Latino speaking world basically. I know that I remember that this segment they did on this little girl whose mother was deported. Her mother was deported and her dad wasn’t, and it kind of really struck me. It was around the time that parents first decided to go back, and it really struck me, “Oh my gosh, that could be me, that could be my little sister.” I never want that to happen to anyone, luckily I kind of know what it feels like, but also not really what it feels like, because it also not really what it feels like because it was like a more voluntary thing. It wasn’t by force. My parents were not taken away by force, which is, you know, it’s better. I prefer it that way. And it just made me realize how messed up the immigration system is, that we are separating a young child-- she was like maybe five. Seeing her cry on the TV was heartbreaking. It made me feel like, “Stop, examine, evaluate and reflect on what you have.” It just made me much more mad and frustrated at the broken immigration system and so that definitely helped me and my family story, my struggles, it helped me be much more active in immigration. And slowly made me realize that if you want something you have to be one of those people advocating for it. It can’t just be someone else speaking for you. And so in 9th grade, I started a petition at my school ( ) I think one of the biggest things was like, we wish had driver’s licenses. In North Carolina, I believe that maybe three years before that, they had revoked driver’s licenses for undocumented people, so I missed the cutoff date by two years to get my permit. I was obviously really kind of disappointed, when I tried to get into Drivers Ed, and before 9th grade, and I couldn’t because I’m undocumented.
HG: Who told you that?
EV: The Drivers, the Driving instructor. He was like “I can’t do anything, you don’t have a social.” So I can’t do anything at all. And basically, I think he implied also, “He’s a Hispanic, why would you make me go through all of this and can’t get a license at all.” And so that year, I really wanted a license because it’s unfair. It’s a rite of passage for a lot of students to get their driver’s license and makes you ( ) more like a full person. And so I didn’t have that piece of paper, or that card, a driver’s license. So in 9th grade, I was really frustrated and I wanted to do something about that. So I started a petition, getting students at UNC--not UNC-- Jordan Mathews, to sign this petition, we should get driver’s licenses. And the plan was we were going to give it to the mayor and the sheriff, and other people in city council. And so we had a good number, and then eventually, I know that I talked to some teachers and they were a little bit scared. They were like, “You know, this is a great initiative, but it’s also is really controversial, and we don’t want you to get in trouble.” And so we never turned them in because they were like, you know, “We support you but this is kind of dangerous for you.” Kind of since then, more and more, I gradually realized that other students across the country were also being more vocal about their status, and nothing was happening. Or it was obviously kind of, at the time, groundbreaking, because no one in 2007--I’m pretty sure you probably wouldn't have met that many students who would say they were was publicly undocumented, because they were scared. But around that same time, those people who were like the ones leading the charge were like, “You should be vocal about your immigration status, for helping students like myself, just kind of embrace our identities, and part of who we are.” I eventually publicly came out in 2010, and that was definitely a really empowering moment. I openly said, “I am undocumented and I’m not afraid of being undocumented anymore.” It was like-- I can’t really explain, it was kind of like I just told a really big secret, but it felt really relieving. Obviously I was in SLI [Scholars Latino Initiative] but I was graduating that year, so people in SLI knew that I was undocumented. Some my teachers knew that I was undocumented ( ) I knew it was a safe place to tell them. But just like, publicly saying that to people I didn’t know but publicly was obviously kind of a scary moment. But it was also a very empowering moment.
HG: So, what do you think is the significance of the DREAM Act for your generation?
EM: It has great implications; I think that the Dream Act, it’s not a perfect bill. I think in my ideal world, you shouldn’t have to go serve in the military for two years just to prove that you’re worthy of this country. A lot of people in this country are never forced to prove that they’re citizens of this country. I think it’s unfair that you have to go above and beyond just to get that piece of paper that says, “You’re a US citizen.” Because, again, I think a lot of people who are against immigration, can’t even answer—don’t even know the history of this country. And it’s so disappointing that they of all people sometimes, very anti-immigrant, or have really anti- immigrant sentiments, don’t know the history of this country. For like a bill I guess—Part of the DREAM Act is part of the bigger solution towards fixing immigration.
HG: What is the significance? Why is it so critical for students like you and for your generation?
EV: Yeah, I mean, I think that immigrants are part of the future of this country. I think it would be a really stupid for someone like myself who has been educated in the system from K -12 to be denied an education even though I really want an education. And because of that, I’m going to maybe have to work in a McDonalds, which, I totally respect anyone who does that. You know, we all have our own personal struggles. But if someone wants to get an education, economically it doesn’t make any sense at all that you invest so much in a person's education. What's the cost? I’m pretty sure the benefits outweigh the costs, of educating them for four more years. Let them get a degree, and if anything, it translates into more taxes that the state and country can generate from these people who are getting an education. And so, I don’t know, it doesn’t make any sense at all, we are part of our communities. We’re active in our communities, the only thing that we are lacking is a piece of paper that says, “You’re a US citizen, or a legal resident.” And so I think that it has a definitely big implications. If the Dream Act, it doesn’t pass in the next 10 years, you’re creating a system where students ( ). Again, I’m one of the really fortunate DREAMers to be going to college, but that’s not the case for most students. Most students are not in school right now and again, it just doesn't make sense. I think that my story--if education was accessible for undocumented students, for five years, or six years to go, I wouldn’t have made the New York Times or any of these news resources because my story wouldn’t have been unique at all. I’m pretty sure that one of the main reasons that I made some headlines because I was kind of like the really dramatically different person who’s not really talked about. But yet it shouldn't be that way. A lot of us want to get an education. I know that the estimate’s like over one million people--of students—( ) It may be upwards to 2 million people who could potentially benefit from the DREAM Act. Imagine two million people across the country getting an education at UNC. It’s a really small number at UNC and, again, it shouldn’t be that way. Anyone who wants an education should get an education. Education is a human right. Even for someone who is totally against immigration ( ) hopefully they will realize that it just makes the country better. There’s nothing negative about having a well-educated population. It’s just like--I really can’t wrap my head around that. People are like, “No, this is bad for the country.” Why would it be bad? And like and again, I say that the Dream Act is part of a bigger solution because so again I realize how fortunate and privileged I am. I am an undocumented student and I know what it feels to be marginalized but I also benefit a lot from ( ). I don’t know. We have this image and who an immigrant should be, and I think DREAMers used as perfect image---and kind of contrast us against our families, you know that are older—our brothers and sisters, mother and father. It’s just really bad because I’m pretty sure if they had the same opportunities that I have right now they would probably be taking these opportunities. The only difference is that they have to work to make, to provide for me to not have not to suffer as much as they do. And so the DREAM Act is a stepping-stone to fix the bigger, broader, broken immigration system in the US because I don’t just want legalization for myself, I want it for my family. Because they are, I would argue, having a much bigger impact in the economy that most DREAM--than most students, I’d say. They’re the ones working all these odd jobs, really low-wage jobs, and that translates to cheap products that all of us benefit from. So I think they’re the ones. They’re like the original DREAMers, and they’re the ones, that if anything, they should be the ones benefiting and reaping what this country is getting from them.
HG: That’s very interesting. Your insight about how DREAMers are portrayed as sort of the ideal immigrant, you know, high achieving, when in reality there are so many people behind them that are working to give them that opportunity to be able to study and not necessarily to go work, to get those grades, that is some interesting insight. This is very interesting. You had mentioned earlier about-- You mentioned something about being in touch with some national leaders youth, in the youth leader movement that have, in the beginning, when they were starting to come out. And how did you get in touch with them, and is that where you kind of received that inspiration, to come out of yourself as undocumented?
EV: Yeah for sure, I first heard of these pioneer DREAMers, through the news, specifically Univision. They were the ones doing a lot of the immigration coverage. I learned more about these people, looked at them online, and then in 2009, towards the end of 2009, there was like a big convening kind of activist across the country through the organization “Reform Immigration for America” or RIFA. It was a really big campaign. The focus was like, “We’re going to pass comprehensive immigration in 2010.” And so, I was invited to be part of this training—training the trainers, kind of like. Activists, local activists across the country came together. They were trained by really, really, kind of like the most accomplished organizers in the country, on how to effectively tell your story, how to engage people, and how to mobilize people, and so the aim was, through these trainings--you would--. There had to be a huge convening at the beginning of May of 2010, and there was this huge convening at DC and it was like 200,000 people came together in 2010. I don’t know if you recall this. It was basically the week leading up to that, that all of us--there were like five key states, North Carolina was one of them, because they identified us as rapidly growing. So we had like ten main organizers in the state. I was one of them; this was my senior year of high school. We got these trainings and we brought together 100 people from across the state, and then we organized few to put even more of people to come to this big rally. And so, at this training I met one of those, like, really well-known, activists of the time through the organization United We Dream. So I was really captivated that they were really the ones being really vocal about the status and nothing was happening to them.
HG: Which was a North Carolina based organization?
EV: It was a national. And so I talked to Carlos who was the director at the time. And I was also contemplating taking a year off from UNC, or before starting to UNC, kind of just wanted to focus on immigration. It felt like 2010 was really the year to pass the immigration reform. I really want to go all out and, you know, help as much as I can. I felt that the only way that I could do that was taking the year off, and not having to worry about academics and being active in the community. And so, yeah, I eventually got permission from UNC to defer my admission from one year, and so right after graduation, like a week later, I moved to DC, started working for United We Dream. That’s when I really became really, really immersed in the national immigration movement. Where I met other ( ) leaders from across the country, who were vocal about their status, doing a lot of peaceful demonstrations, kind of aiming--. Our big goal was comprehensive immigration reform, and then we realized it’s not. It’s dead by now, it’s not going to happen at all. And so then our focus shifted to passing the DREAM Act because we thought that was the most tangible thing that could happen in 2010. We kind of went all out. We did as many events as we could across the country. It then kind of all culminated at the end in 2010, when the DREAM Act came out for a vote. It kind of passed through the House; it was historic, it never happened before. And then it died in the Senate. It was also very frustrating because ( ) Yeah, one of them was, like it taught me a lot it was I realized like how everything political everything is. We were all used as political talking points from the very beginning. I felt I hadn’t really realized until ( ). A lot of us were kind of disappointed, disheartened—that it hadn’t passed.
HG: And so since then, you’ve taken a lot of those strategies and activities back here to the UNC campus in North Carolina through working Students United for Immigrant Equality and the One State One Rate campaign? Can you talk about that campaign here? You know, where it’s at now, where is it now.
EV: Yeah, when I came back to UNC part of the reason I took my gap year, I wanted to learn new strategies and bringing them back to campus. One of my main goals coming to UNC, starting at UNC, I wanted to change the way that immigrants are viewed across North Carolina. I want to say, probably, I was, I’m pretty sure I’m like the first, really open undocumented at UNC’s campus, currently at UNC. And so I definitely shared my story a lot and a lot of the students were kind of taken aback. It was like, “I’ve never met anyone who’s been undocumented. What are you doing here?” I think they also kind of realized, “You’re just like me. Er, kind of like me, trying to get an education.” So. It felt great that through Students United for Immigrant Equality we kind of were challenging what immigrants look like. Yeah, what immigrants look like. And so, we did a lot of events kind of informing students, one of our biggest goals was that we want to inform student and let them know what, who immigrants are and why they’re here to begin with, and so I heavily did that my first few years at UNC having rallies and trying to engage other students and there are a couple of undocumented students and luckily, some of them, some of them came up to me, some of them mostly privately those who were undocumented, would be like, “This is great, thank you for doing this, I can’t show my story right now but I want to let you know that I’m also undocumented.” So I was like, really great to hear that from other students, some who I’ve never expected they were undocumented….they were telling me that they were undocumented, and I was like” what?” It was really great it motivated me to continue this because it kind of made me realize, that we were having an impact you know, sharing our stories and then last year, one of the things we wanted to do was bring race awareness in disparities on access on education for undocumented students. Policy for North Carolina is that if you’re undocumented you don’t qualify for instate tuition regardless of how long you’ve lived here. In my case, I’ve lived here for over seventeen years and regardless I’m still considered an international student, and so you know, it’s really unfair because I know I’ve heard of students, students have told me that they’ve lived here for two years and they’ve now been considered instate students, so that’s really disappointing, really unfair, we want to share that awareness and we started one state “One Rate Campaign” basically asking the UNC system to change their practice of charging instate tuition to undocumented students and instead charge them in state tuition if they met the requirements that they were probably going to set out, you know, if you met these requirements you get in-state tuition students and so we knew that it wasn’t going to be an easy battle. Obviously North Carolina has also become radically left,
HG: You mean, right?
EV: Right, right! I mean--I wish I was fluent. Radically left? Politically, dramatically right. (Laughs) So, it was going to be a hard battle, but we still tried. We got over 1000 signatures within, like, a week of the Campaign going live from UNC students, for ( ) faculty, the alumni. It was great to hear from the alumni. From the class of ‘eighty-three, with some of them saying, “This is great, I support this and I can’t believe we haven’t done this yet.” So it was really great. You know really, really, a diverse college of people who support this. And our goal was to present it to the Chancellor, hearing her thoughts on this. At the time I was on her Student Advisory Committee so I saw her like once a month. So there wasn’t an excuse that I couldn’t ask her in person, in front of other people, what her thoughts were, and begin. The first time that I asked for this, her excuse was that, “I’m new to this position. I know what the Dream Act is, but I’m transitioning from a private university that gives scholarships to undocumented students as a department, to UNC, which is a public university. I know it’s tricky. It’s tricky to do that. I can’t give an answer right now because I want to learn more about the issue.” I somewhat understood where she was coming from. She’s new, she’s learning the system, she also has probably a lot of other demands, other people are also pushing her to do a lot of other things at once. We were kind of--she’s at least seemed receptive listening, which was great. I can’t say that for Chancellor Thorp. I also knew Chancellor Thorp and we also tried to get him to publicly support this issue as he was leaving UNC and he was really not--. He didn’t want to do anything. And that’s, again, in my opinion, was really disappointing because he’s a university leader and that’s just--I definitely would say that I’m OK. I was really disappointed by the way that he said “I’m not going to do anything on this issue. I know where you’re coming from, but I’m not going to support this issue.” I think it’s disappointing especially from an educator who should, out of all people should know, that education is a right. Through this campaign, later in the semester we had a call-in-day to the chancellor’s office, which was met with great success. And a lot of people called her office, because her chancellor’s assistant and the chancellor herself told me that they received a lot of calls that they kind of--good thing. And then like later on we were able to get Faculty Council to pass a resolution in support of in-state tuition for undocumented students. It was great. The Chancellor was actually there the day that we debated this. ( ) The chancellor was there, the Provost was there, other like top officials from UNC were there, and. But overall the reception was really, really positive. Some--one of them were like “You know, I can’t believe this. We weren’t aware of this or that.” Again, really supportive and unanimously passed, so it was great. That’s the first time that anything like that’s ever happened, at least definitely in the state, in a public university in the state. And we also got the Daily Tar Heel, the student newspaper, as well as the Campus Y and Student Congress to also pass resolutions in support. So it was great to see the support from across campus.
HG: So where are we at right now?
EV: So, there hasn’t been activity this semester, mainly because I stepped down because I was running my own campaign.
HG: For Student Body President
EV: For Student Body President. So it would have been a little overwhelming. But I do think that obviously my Student Body President campaign and this in-state tuition campaign were not coordinated or related at all. They were like--it was like the One State One Rate, and it was kind of a super late, last minute campaign that me and some other people talked about. But I do think had I been in office, I think it would’ve shown the general assembly and other people in the state that undocumented students are involved in our campus and are just like any other student and the only thing lacking is a piece of paper. We could have been good example, of students are involved. A lot of us are using the opportunities that we’ve been given. We’re positively making good impact on our schools and the state, so.
HG: No, that’s really, that’s really interesting-- Reflections on where things are at right now with respect to all of these issues that are in flux. I should probably wind down our interview just because you’ve been so generous with your time. I wonder, are you planning to be more-- Are you going to be starting up this campaign again in the fall? What’s sort of the next-- Where are you looking now? You’ve had some time to reflect upon your student body president campaign, but sort of, where do you see things headed right now?
EV: Yeah, so I haven’t really thought about that. I mean, I have had a lot of time to think about all the things, but I don’t know what I’m doing-- what I’m doing yet. Which is kind of exciting and scary at the same time. I don’t know. The great-- one of the great things that I’ve realized is that more and more students across the state are also stepping up and sharing their stories which is amazing. I think it’s great that it’s not just me or, like a handful of people. It’s a good number of people. More and more wanting to share our stories, wanting to explore themselves. One of my goals would be to see those students also be spear-heading this initiative. Honestly, in-state tuition doesn’t really affect me anymore. I have one more year left at UNC. If I really wanted to really, don’t have to be involved anymore because, and I honestly didn’t—Honestly I didn’t have to be involved from the beginning, because I didn’t have in-state tuition, but I had a scholarship that pays for my education. I did this because I wanted-- I didn’t want other students to have to do what I had to go through: the uncertainty, the anxiety, of not knowing what your future holds. And so, definitely, I’m still planning to be involved but I think it’s time for more, new leaders to step up and change this issue. Help change this issue. So I think one other thing that I would love to see is giving them a platform. Be the ones leading the conversation, like in-state tuition, or immigration, at UNC and in the state. Because, you know, we need more fresh blood, as the saying goes – to change our conversation. This can’t be like, you now, people like myself anymore.
HG: I mean, that’s funny because you’re already viewing yourself as someone who is aging out of-- or maybe someone who’s had the opportunity to have a platform, and you’re interested in others coming along.
EV: Yeah, and also I don’t know what—where—I’ll be a year from now. I don’t think in-state tuition is going to pass in this year for sure. I’m hoping maybe next year. I think some people are looking at maybe next year. I’m hoping that next year, but it may be longer than that. I also don’t know what I’ll be doing in a year from now, after I graduate. I might leave the state. You know ( ) if I’m not going to be around. If I can do anything, it should be like helping build new leaders and stepping up. Those of us who are graduating like you know, like Pía, who’s graduated, and other people. Who’s going to take over for us at UNC or just, yeah, and leading the conversation. I would love to if situation is really important, but I think there are bigger pictures, immigration reform. I think if immigration reform would happen, it would help in alleviate a lot of these concerns. And so that’s something that’s I’m obviously interested and. Yeah. I think it’s time for other people to lead. So that’s definitely one of my goals this year incoming that I plan to not be as active anymore because I also want to enjoy my senior year and chill during my senior year. (Laughs)
HG: Oh, wow. (Laughs). Emilio thank you so much for sharing all of this, I really appreciate it, so.
EV: Thanks for interviewing.
HG: Thank you.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Estudiantes
Es: Género de entrevistado
Hombre
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Emilio Vicente discute su experiencia migratoria y la de su familia como mayas quichés de Guatemala, a Siler City, en Carolina del Norte, en 1997. Él discute sobre su educación primaria como el único hablante de quiché en las escuelas públicas y cómo se sentía diferente de los latinos quienes hablaban español en las escuelas. Él habla sobre cómo su familia hizo hincapié en el aprendizaje del inglés y el español por encima de preservar el quiché, y como él lamenta que perdió su primera cultura. Habla sobre cómo su padre estuvo paralizado en un accidente de trabajo que influyó en la decisión de su padres de volver a Guatemala. Él discute su activismo para ganar más igualdad y acceso a la educación para estudiantes indocumentados, como él mismo. Él habla sobre su trabajo en la campaña nacional, United We Dream, en Washington, D.C., y como trajo los métodos que aprendió ahí al campus de la Universidad de Carolina del Norte, en Chapel Hill, donde empezó la campañana One State One Rate, que lucha por la oportunidad de que estudiantes indocumentados paguen la misma matrícula que otros estudiantes quienes también residen en el estado, y también comenzó la organización Students for Immigrant Equality.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Emilio Vicente por Hannah Gill, 25 Junio 2014, R-0699, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Activismo; Ciudadanía e inmigración; Educación; Identidad; Poblaciones indígenas
Es: Transcripción
Hannah Gill: OK, well lets’ get started. This is Hannah Gill and I am here interviewing Emilio Vicente. It is June 25th 2014.We are here on campus at UNC-Chapel Hill. Emilio, thank you so much for being here today.
Emilio Vicente: Thanks for having me.
HG: I enjoyed listening to Frank Stasio’s interview back in the spring, and I think that’s a great jumping off point for this interview. I was wondering if maybe you could start by telling me about why your family came to join your father in Siler City, and I think it was in 1992?
EV: ‘97
HG: 1997
HG: Yeah tell me a little about…
EV: Yeah, so my family is-- My dad only got a seventh grade education, and my mom didn’t go to school at all, so when they lived in Guatemala, it was really hard for them to live financially, or they struggled a lot financially because they didn’t have their resources. My dad would travel all over the country in Guatemala, trying to make as much income for our family as possible, and unfortunately it wasn’t enough and so he eventually decided to come to the US in 1992 because he thought he would have a better opportunity of sending money back, you know, provide better for my family. And so, yeah he moved to the US, he moved around. He did a lot of like migrant, agricultural farm-working related jobs, during that time, and so, he eventually settled in Siler City, North Carolina in ‘97 and because of the poultry plants in Siler City. Siler City was a booming town for a poultry plant, and all of these agricultural jobs, and so he eventually decided to send for my mom and I because he wanted, you know, to see mom again. And also I hadn’t seen him since I was, since I was born, and that was like a year after I was born that he had left, so I didn’t know him at all that well. And so, yeah, we moved, we both came to the US. We couldn’t apply for visas because it’s hard to get a visa if you’re poor and you don’t have an education and so, our only option, my dad’s also only option, was crossing the border, and that’s what we did. We crossed the Mexican and the US border, and we eventually came to Siler City and I grew up in Siler City. And I’ve gone through the whole education system from kindergarten through 12th grade.
HG: OK. Now can you tell me about your, I guess your parents’, home town in Guatemala? And where was that? You probably don’t remember much about it. (Laughs)
EV: Not really. (Laughs) It’s a small village; it’s called San Vicente ( ). It’s really small, it’s remote. It’s mainly all indigenous— that’s where they speak K’iche, the language that I grew up speaking, and basically it’s mostly kind of like an agricultural small, town/village and as far as I’m aware there wasn’t much business going on, so yeah you know people are really humble. Education I’d say was a commodity mostly geared towards men or boys. That’s mostly all I have about it ---- I don’t remember that much unfortunately.
HG: So, your grandfathers, and great grandfathers would have worked in agriculture?
EV: Yeah, they would be into farming, you know, growing their own crops and have had animals. We had some animals and crops as well. There wasn’t enough again.
HG: So, how did the Civil War in Guatemala impact your parents’ lives?
EV: So it definitely impacted my family’s life directly, and it was part of the reason that my dad actually came into the US, because he was seeking political asylum. Because my understanding is that my uncle, he was drafted into the army because of the Civil War and so you know, it was like--
HG: --Into the national army?
EV: I believe so. And so you know there was a great danger of other people in my family also being drafted. Where my dad was being there during part of the war, and so it’s likely. I don’t think, as far as I’m aware, no one in my family was most directly affected because of the Civil War. Obviously it impacted all of us, in Guatemala, and it was part of the reason that my dad decided to come to the US.
HG: He sought political asylum, but he was not successful in obtaining that?
EV: Yeah, right.
HG: So, do you have any idea of how he actually heard about Siler City? I mean, why Siler City? Obviously it had the poultry jobs.
EV: Yeah, I should ask. I don’t know. My belief, my uncles part of my-- Some of my other family members, some of my uncles, and cousins lived in Siler City. I believe that’s how he came to Siler City. I’m wondering the same thing. Kind of small town.
HG: So you were really small when you got here. Do you have any memories from Guatemala at all?
EV: I mean, I have images, kind of somewhat remembering what the house we lived in looked like. It was kind of like a brick house. We definitely had crops, I don’t know, we had sheep, and I don’t have unfortunately…
HG: Those are young memories.
EV: Yeah, yeah, young memories.
HG: What is your first memory from Siler City? From moving to--
EV: Yeah, well I remember that day when my dad, the day we arrived to Siler City, because I was very excited to be seeing my dad for the first time. I saw coming to the US as more--as an adventure because I was going to see my dad—whom I hadn’t seen since I was one. You obviously don’t remember anything when you’re one. So, yeah, it was exciting to see, as we were pulling up. He was outside, where he lived. And then he had on a --it was like a green plaid shirt and he had keys towards his hat and I believe his pants were, I want to say, they might have been green as well but I remember the shirt for sure , and so, yeah, was really exciting to see him for the first time.
HG: What about your first memories, what about growing up in Siler City and, you know, experiences of going to school, what was that like?
EV: Yeah, so I grew up speaking K’iche’ in Guatemala, and so when I came to the US I didn’t know English or Spanish. So I was put in ESL classes. So it was little bit harder, because you know, most ESL classes are for, most of them are Latinos, they speak Spanish, that’s not-- I mean it’s obviously hard adjusting, but it was even harder for me and my mother because she was also in the same position. She didn’t know that much Spanish. To say that the first few months was definitely an adjustment because it was completely different from what I was used to. And luckily we were able to surpass the language barrier, and I mean I’ve enjoyed going to Siler City Elementary. It’s definitely during that time, I believe North Carolina was going through a rapid migrant change, demographic change. You know, it had now crossed the south, especially North Carolina, and I’d say definitely Siler City. So you see a really great an example of what was happening, or has happened since. Because since then a lot of my classmates are more and more, were more majority Latino, you know. Yeah I think overall my experience was great. I was actually back in Siler City back three weeks ago and my niece was graduating from the fifth grade class of Siler City Elementary, so it’s really great to see the changes that have happened since I left Siler City Elementary. Now they have dual language classes where they teach you Spanish and English, like formally. It’s not an ESL, or it’s not Spanish class. It’s like a formal, educational setting where they’re talking in Spanish and English, where they teach you all the formal, you know, everything. So it was great to be there at the graduation ceremony and see little kids speaking in Spanish and English. And even the little white kids they were speaking perfect Spanish and I was blown away, like “Whoa, this is amazing!” So I kind of wish--I was definitely jealous. I wish that was there when I was there. I’ve been able to like overall like learn Spanish but it would have definitely been great. I think it’s a great task for me for what’s been happening in Siler City, for they’ve realized you know, it’s better to be bilingual to be monolingual. I’ve enjoyed that most people in Siler City have embraced the demographic change that has happened during my time there and since I’ve left, and I think it’s definitely an indication of overall where the country is going towards.
HG: Yeah, is so interesting. Where there other K’iche speakers in--apart from your family or at your school? Or did you feel like an outsider within Spanish-speaking communities in which you found yourself.
EV: Yeah, I definitely felt like I was an outsider during the first few years, because I knew other Guatemalans and they also spoke like dialects—no—languages. So I don't recall anyone out in my school who also spoke K’iche’, so it definitely made it harder.
HG: Was your family one the first families that came from your region and others came over? Or were you just--
EV: I would say, I would say I was probably one of the first to go through the education system. Like, overall, there were other families that spoke K’iche’. Again, my dad had family members in Siler City, so he would speak with them in K’iche’. But I’m pretty sure I might have been one of the very first few to have gone through the educational system. And it made it a little bit challenging, but also easier because I was in an educational setting. So it was definitely easier.
HG: OK. Very interesting. To continue talking about your heritage, your Mayan heritage, what is the significance for that in your family?
EV: Right.
HG: You know, now.
EV: Yeah. So I grew up. I don’t speak it anymore because my dad was really adamant about, “You should learn Spanish and English. Those are going to be what is going to make you successful.” And also because I definitely say that there’s a lot of racism in Latin America, maybe even more racism than there is in the US, towards indigenous peoples. So part of not identifying indigenous was because I think it felt shameful for people to say that because it kind of like made you feel less superior because you want to be the mestizo, like, you know, the white person. Overall, you want to have a good complexion, you don’t want to be treated, or judged because of your broken Spanish. I even remember my mom, I mean, she was definitely older when she came, so it was harder for her to learn Spanish, and I’m definitely amazed that she definitely learned it really well, but even then she had an accent, you could tell that she spoke Spanish. She had an accent and it wasn’t her native language, and so I definitely remember people making fun of her, or other Latinos making fun of her, because she couldn't express herself and I was really-- it made me frustrated and mad at people because they were judging me and my family because we couldn’t speak the language. But overall they were in the same position as we were, they were working class. They were--yeah, economically in the same position that we were in. I’m saying--
HG: It’s ironic--
EV: It’s really ironic. Even now, looking back and I don’t think--I think they’re in the same place that they were back as they are now, so.
HG: Who is they?
EV: All the people in Siler City, people in my home town, like other Latinos who were kind of like not that supportive of people who weren’t Spanish, like fully Spanish, speakers. And so, I’m saying all of this because it comes back into to the-- I grew up kind of like under this mindset I have to learn Spanish and English, I shouldn’t speak K’iche’ because it’s worthless, or it’s not going to help me in the future, and so---. It wasn’t until like four or five years ago, I realized that, “Oh wait I should be proud of my heritage because it means a lot and there are great people who, they are great people who are the indigenous and who have done amazing stuff. I think of Rigoberta Menchu, she’s like one of our most prominent indigenous people in the world, and so I shouldn’t be shameful at all of my heritage. So, I feel like, unfortunately, that’s the case. I feel like it might be the case for some, for people. Or other indigenous people, they don’t want to associate themselves that way, because it kind of makes you feel as less potentially. Or people might see you as less. But since I’ve learned to embrace-- One of the things that I really wish, going back, I would have been definitely would have been you know, having learned the language. I can understand it, but I can’t speak it anymore. It’s definitely frustrating so. I have my grandmother, luckily, fortunately, is still alive, but she only speaks K’iche’. She understands Spanish and so whenever I talk to her I’m speaking to her in Spanish and she’s speaking in K’iche’. So it’s kind of a weird dynamic, and I really wish that I could speak it or even write it. Because I think it would be great to emerge myself in my own culture. Because I definitely I don’t know my own culture, my first culture at all.
HG: And, because your parents now live in--they went back to Guatemala-- so it’s not like you have this available resource at your home. You know, you talked about your mother learning Spanish here in North Carolina and she obviously must have put a lot of time and energy into doing that. Why did she put the energy into that, as opposed to English?
EV: Right, well, she is definitely a smart person. I think I get my smarts from here. My dad is smart, but I think my mom is definitely smarter. I often ask, if she was the one that would have gotten an education, I think that my family would definitely be much more well-off. I definitely respect her. She’s really driven and she’s definitely influenced me a lot and ( ) because she comes from a poor family but she can do better math in her head than I can. It’s sad. I’ve gotten an education, and she didn’t get an education, and she can do math. Always I think of what would have happened if she had received a full education? You know, I think that would have been amazing to see. But I think the reason that learned both is that she lived in two worlds, Spanish and English. So, again most people she interacted with were Spanish-speakers. My cousins were mostly of the people she worked with, and in the poultry plants were also Latinos, that’s the only way that they could communicate. When she did come here, she kind of had a basic structure of the language, she didn’t start at zero. But again, it was so hard for her, and so, I think it was easier for her to learn Spanish at the time. And they also went at the community college in Siler City, they also taught English at night and in the evenings, and my mom and dad would go to those classes and so she also learned broken English. She can—like basic—she can count her numbers, she can—even if she can’t understand you fully, even though she can’t give you a full response, she could understand you. And she could answer you in English even if it was like a basic answer you would still know what she was trying to tell you. She definitely learned both, and she tried learning both as much as she could. They also bought at the time this really big program called Inglés sin Barreras—it was really huge and all over Univision--I don’t know if you recall but I’m pretty sure almost every Latino family had this program. We had this program because my parents wanted to learn English. Unfortunately, they didn’t have the time to do that. It’s one thing to try to learn it, but again, they’re working two jobs, and they would come home really exhausted. I definitely commend them, again. They at least tried. It is definitely easier said than done. I know they definitely put a lot of effort into learning and I definitely appreciate that.
HG: It’s extraordinary to try to learn not one, but two new languages while you’re working two jobs, at the same time. It’s pretty extraordinary. Did your family, besides your immediate relatives that lived here, did they ever seek out other folks from their home town? Or in different parts of North Carolina for getting together for holidays or social events?
EV: Not really, our families were just like more on our own.
HG: Pioneers?
EV: Basically. My dad and my mom had family members in other parts of the country. But they were mostly—. They were kind of the first to, along with my cousins and my dad’s brothers, to move into Siler City so there wasn’t much apart from my family. There wasn’t much communication from others outside of our family.
HG: You had mentioned in some of the other interviews how your father was injured in a workplace accident. What was his job that he did and how—. Tell me about that. How has this experience impacted you and your family?
EV: Yeah, so he used to work, he did a lot of jobs apart from poultry plants trying to make more of an income for our family. One of those jobs was working at a lumber company outside of Siler City. It was kind of nearby, maybe a 15-20 minute drive, and so he worked there for--I don’t know how long, but then he had an accident in 2001. This machine fell on him, and it broke his spinal cord. He hasn’t been able to walk since then. Obviously it definitely dramatically changed our life because my dad was now in a wheel chair. He was initially in the hospital for two weeks, in intensive care. And because I was the only one in my family to speak English, I was out of school for two weeks, to be with my parents interpreting as much as I could. I was eleven at the time, it was definitely kind of changing for me as well. So that accident was also really complicated because my dad was undocumented, and so it made it much more complicated for him to get workers’ compensation. He was eventually able to get it because we forced them to. They didn’t want to but we forced them to. So it just changed our dynamics again. I never, personally, I never really thought like this, of disabilities, because fortunately I have been very healthy. Everyone in my family was healthy, so no one in my family had any disabilities until my dad’s accident and so it definitely changed my perspective overall on what disabilities mean and just like someone in a wheelchair differently. So I think that in some way I definitely was appreciative of-- telling me something would have never ever experienced. I don’t think you would ever really know what it means until you have someone directly impacted by it--which is kind of like-- Obviously I wouldn’t want that to happen to anyone, but it does change your view on a lot of things. Overall, I would help my mom, when he finally came back to our house, I would help my mom. He couldn’t take a bath by himself anymore. We would have to take him into his wheelchair, from his bed, and to his wheelchair, into the bathroom. It was like a special bathroom that they built and so I would sometimes be up just up at midnight even though I had school the next day. My mom would wake me up because everyone else in my family was working. I was like, you know, the only that could help. She would wake me up whenever she needed help. Again, she’s the strongest person that I know because she was the one that-- she did everything. My brothers were also helping out, but they also had to work and my mom who was basically stopped everything and she somehow got through it. She’s definitely the strongest person who helped us, overall, in adjusting to all this.
HG: So your parents eventually decided to go back to Guatemala, and how did you and your brothers’ lives change after that?
EV: Yeah, so…
HG: How old were you?
EV: I was fifteen when they decided to go back. It’s actually been eight years, it’s been eight years in February. So they decided to go back mainly because of the accident. My dad, he always felt that he was on the verge of death, and so he always thought that maybe he was going to die soon and he wanted to see my grandmother, his mother, who he hadn’t seen in thirteen years at the time. She was also getting older. He said, “I don’t want to regret not seeing my mother”, and the only option he had was going back. There wasn’t any other option. So that and other decisions, other things kind of made it more and more likely for them to go back. So my parents told me, “Do you want to go with us? Or do you want to stay here with your oldest brother?” And on my end it was definitely a hard decision because I’ve always lived with my mom and dad, and so it was just weird thinking, “Whoa, what would I do without them?” But I also talked to my brothers, and my brothers were like, “You know, you have much better future here than you will have over there.” So that helped me, and I was also optimistic that maybe that I could be one of those success stories, like if I tried hard enough, maybe I could go to college. And maybe I could be the first one in my family to achieve that dream of going to college. So it was obviously it was a big gamble because it could have not worked out. So eventually I decided to stay, it obviously completely changed my life because my brothers are not my parents regardless of how supportive they are, it’s not the same thing. So, I was definitely much more independent which was in some way a little bit exciting, but also kind of, again, weird because I was used to seeing my dad and mom every day-- at the time I had a little sister who was like the only US-born person in our family. It was definitely weird adjusting to not seeing my mom, dad, or my little sister since then.
HG: Do you still have responsibilities- family responsibilities now, in addition to the work that you do? I mean, obviously as a college student you have a lot of responsibilities. But, yeah, do you still--
EV: What do you?
HG: Do you have to support your family? Do you feel obligated to stay in touch with them and how do you do that?
EV: Luckily I don’t have to support them financially. And I feel like they also realize that I’m not working at all so it would be kind hard for me to support them. So, in essence, I don’t do that. I’m much more kind of the opposite—most likely they’re going to be the ones supporting me because I’m kind of the broke person here. I use as much help as I can, sometimes. Apart from that, we do stay in touch and we do talk often in order to catch up. I feel like maybe if anything--
HG: By phone or do you use Skype?
EV: We’ve Skyped a couple of times, but it’s kind of hard. We’ve Skyped a couple of times but it’s mostly usually through phone. I feel that my overall responsibilities in my first few years, once I get a job, would be supporting my family financially. Hopefully, I can make it. I would see an income; that is definitely one of my goals. They sustain themselves, because they have a small store in San Vicente. They sell produce and other stuff. I’d love to be in a position where I can economically help them. One of my dreams would be to buy them a house. They already have a house, but—I don’t know. Give them something that I--to thank them for all they’ve done for me.
HG: I want to talk about all the incredible immigrant advocacy that you do outside of class, and I guess I can start by asking, was there a moment that really galvanized you to be so outspoken? It seems like from hearing about your story that you’ve had your consciousness raised your entire life, of a lot of different experiences. Consciousness about the challenges that you or your own family have faced and other immigrants as well. But was there a galvanizing moment? When did you really go into advocacy and become so outspoken?
EV: Right, definitely for sure it’s just my own personal immigrant story and that of my family’s that influenced me to be more active. I know that-- It might have been in 9th grade, I saw a segment the Primer Impacto which is Univision. It’s kind of like your regular big segment. Noticiero Univision was kind of like an hour long, also kind of program news of what’s happening across the Latino speaking world basically. I know that I remember that this segment they did on this little girl whose mother was deported. Her mother was deported and her dad wasn’t, and it kind of really struck me. It was around the time that parents first decided to go back, and it really struck me, “Oh my gosh, that could be me, that could be my little sister.” I never want that to happen to anyone, luckily I kind of know what it feels like, but also not really what it feels like, because it also not really what it feels like because it was like a more voluntary thing. It wasn’t by force. My parents were not taken away by force, which is, you know, it’s better. I prefer it that way. And it just made me realize how messed up the immigration system is, that we are separating a young child-- she was like maybe five. Seeing her cry on the TV was heartbreaking. It made me feel like, “Stop, examine, evaluate and reflect on what you have.” It just made me much more mad and frustrated at the broken immigration system and so that definitely helped me and my family story, my struggles, it helped me be much more active in immigration. And slowly made me realize that if you want something you have to be one of those people advocating for it. It can’t just be someone else speaking for you. And so in 9th grade, I started a petition at my school ( ) I think one of the biggest things was like, we wish had driver’s licenses. In North Carolina, I believe that maybe three years before that, they had revoked driver’s licenses for undocumented people, so I missed the cutoff date by two years to get my permit. I was obviously really kind of disappointed, when I tried to get into Drivers Ed, and before 9th grade, and I couldn’t because I’m undocumented.
HG: Who told you that?
EV: The Drivers, the Driving instructor. He was like “I can’t do anything, you don’t have a social.” So I can’t do anything at all. And basically, I think he implied also, “He’s a Hispanic, why would you make me go through all of this and can’t get a license at all.” And so that year, I really wanted a license because it’s unfair. It’s a rite of passage for a lot of students to get their driver’s license and makes you ( ) more like a full person. And so I didn’t have that piece of paper, or that card, a driver’s license. So in 9th grade, I was really frustrated and I wanted to do something about that. So I started a petition, getting students at UNC--not UNC-- Jordan Mathews, to sign this petition, we should get driver’s licenses. And the plan was we were going to give it to the mayor and the sheriff, and other people in city council. And so we had a good number, and then eventually, I know that I talked to some teachers and they were a little bit scared. They were like, “You know, this is a great initiative, but it’s also is really controversial, and we don’t want you to get in trouble.” And so we never turned them in because they were like, you know, “We support you but this is kind of dangerous for you.” Kind of since then, more and more, I gradually realized that other students across the country were also being more vocal about their status, and nothing was happening. Or it was obviously kind of, at the time, groundbreaking, because no one in 2007--I’m pretty sure you probably wouldn't have met that many students who would say they were was publicly undocumented, because they were scared. But around that same time, those people who were like the ones leading the charge were like, “You should be vocal about your immigration status, for helping students like myself, just kind of embrace our identities, and part of who we are.” I eventually publicly came out in 2010, and that was definitely a really empowering moment. I openly said, “I am undocumented and I’m not afraid of being undocumented anymore.” It was like-- I can’t really explain, it was kind of like I just told a really big secret, but it felt really relieving. Obviously I was in SLI [Scholars Latino Initiative] but I was graduating that year, so people in SLI knew that I was undocumented. Some my teachers knew that I was undocumented ( ) I knew it was a safe place to tell them. But just like, publicly saying that to people I didn’t know but publicly was obviously kind of a scary moment. But it was also a very empowering moment.
HG: So, what do you think is the significance of the DREAM Act for your generation?
EM: It has great implications; I think that the Dream Act, it’s not a perfect bill. I think in my ideal world, you shouldn’t have to go serve in the military for two years just to prove that you’re worthy of this country. A lot of people in this country are never forced to prove that they’re citizens of this country. I think it’s unfair that you have to go above and beyond just to get that piece of paper that says, “You’re a US citizen.” Because, again, I think a lot of people who are against immigration, can’t even answer—don’t even know the history of this country. And it’s so disappointing that they of all people sometimes, very anti-immigrant, or have really anti- immigrant sentiments, don’t know the history of this country. For like a bill I guess—Part of the DREAM Act is part of the bigger solution towards fixing immigration.
HG: What is the significance? Why is it so critical for students like you and for your generation?
EV: Yeah, I mean, I think that immigrants are part of the future of this country. I think it would be a really stupid for someone like myself who has been educated in the system from K -12 to be denied an education even though I really want an education. And because of that, I’m going to maybe have to work in a McDonalds, which, I totally respect anyone who does that. You know, we all have our own personal struggles. But if someone wants to get an education, economically it doesn’t make any sense at all that you invest so much in a person's education. What's the cost? I’m pretty sure the benefits outweigh the costs, of educating them for four more years. Let them get a degree, and if anything, it translates into more taxes that the state and country can generate from these people who are getting an education. And so, I don’t know, it doesn’t make any sense at all, we are part of our communities. We’re active in our communities, the only thing that we are lacking is a piece of paper that says, “You’re a US citizen, or a legal resident.” And so I think that it has a definitely big implications. If the Dream Act, it doesn’t pass in the next 10 years, you’re creating a system where students ( ). Again, I’m one of the really fortunate DREAMers to be going to college, but that’s not the case for most students. Most students are not in school right now and again, it just doesn't make sense. I think that my story--if education was accessible for undocumented students, for five years, or six years to go, I wouldn’t have made the New York Times or any of these news resources because my story wouldn’t have been unique at all. I’m pretty sure that one of the main reasons that I made some headlines because I was kind of like the really dramatically different person who’s not really talked about. But yet it shouldn't be that way. A lot of us want to get an education. I know that the estimate’s like over one million people--of students—( ) It may be upwards to 2 million people who could potentially benefit from the DREAM Act. Imagine two million people across the country getting an education at UNC. It’s a really small number at UNC and, again, it shouldn’t be that way. Anyone who wants an education should get an education. Education is a human right. Even for someone who is totally against immigration ( ) hopefully they will realize that it just makes the country better. There’s nothing negative about having a well-educated population. It’s just like--I really can’t wrap my head around that. People are like, “No, this is bad for the country.” Why would it be bad? And like and again, I say that the Dream Act is part of a bigger solution because so again I realize how fortunate and privileged I am. I am an undocumented student and I know what it feels to be marginalized but I also benefit a lot from ( ). I don’t know. We have this image and who an immigrant should be, and I think DREAMers used as perfect image---and kind of contrast us against our families, you know that are older—our brothers and sisters, mother and father. It’s just really bad because I’m pretty sure if they had the same opportunities that I have right now they would probably be taking these opportunities. The only difference is that they have to work to make, to provide for me to not have not to suffer as much as they do. And so the DREAM Act is a stepping-stone to fix the bigger, broader, broken immigration system in the US because I don’t just want legalization for myself, I want it for my family. Because they are, I would argue, having a much bigger impact in the economy that most DREAM--than most students, I’d say. They’re the ones working all these odd jobs, really low-wage jobs, and that translates to cheap products that all of us benefit from. So I think they’re the ones. They’re like the original DREAMers, and they’re the ones, that if anything, they should be the ones benefiting and reaping what this country is getting from them.
HG: That’s very interesting. Your insight about how DREAMers are portrayed as sort of the ideal immigrant, you know, high achieving, when in reality there are so many people behind them that are working to give them that opportunity to be able to study and not necessarily to go work, to get those grades, that is some interesting insight. This is very interesting. You had mentioned earlier about-- You mentioned something about being in touch with some national leaders youth, in the youth leader movement that have, in the beginning, when they were starting to come out. And how did you get in touch with them, and is that where you kind of received that inspiration, to come out of yourself as undocumented?
EV: Yeah for sure, I first heard of these pioneer DREAMers, through the news, specifically Univision. They were the ones doing a lot of the immigration coverage. I learned more about these people, looked at them online, and then in 2009, towards the end of 2009, there was like a big convening kind of activist across the country through the organization “Reform Immigration for America” or RIFA. It was a really big campaign. The focus was like, “We’re going to pass comprehensive immigration in 2010.” And so, I was invited to be part of this training—training the trainers, kind of like. Activists, local activists across the country came together. They were trained by really, really, kind of like the most accomplished organizers in the country, on how to effectively tell your story, how to engage people, and how to mobilize people, and so the aim was, through these trainings--you would--. There had to be a huge convening at the beginning of May of 2010, and there was this huge convening at DC and it was like 200,000 people came together in 2010. I don’t know if you recall this. It was basically the week leading up to that, that all of us--there were like five key states, North Carolina was one of them, because they identified us as rapidly growing. So we had like ten main organizers in the state. I was one of them; this was my senior year of high school. We got these trainings and we brought together 100 people from across the state, and then we organized few to put even more of people to come to this big rally. And so, at this training I met one of those, like, really well-known, activists of the time through the organization United We Dream. So I was really captivated that they were really the ones being really vocal about the status and nothing was happening to them.
HG: Which was a North Carolina based organization?
EV: It was a national. And so I talked to Carlos who was the director at the time. And I was also contemplating taking a year off from UNC, or before starting to UNC, kind of just wanted to focus on immigration. It felt like 2010 was really the year to pass the immigration reform. I really want to go all out and, you know, help as much as I can. I felt that the only way that I could do that was taking the year off, and not having to worry about academics and being active in the community. And so, yeah, I eventually got permission from UNC to defer my admission from one year, and so right after graduation, like a week later, I moved to DC, started working for United We Dream. That’s when I really became really, really immersed in the national immigration movement. Where I met other ( ) leaders from across the country, who were vocal about their status, doing a lot of peaceful demonstrations, kind of aiming--. Our big goal was comprehensive immigration reform, and then we realized it’s not. It’s dead by now, it’s not going to happen at all. And so then our focus shifted to passing the DREAM Act because we thought that was the most tangible thing that could happen in 2010. We kind of went all out. We did as many events as we could across the country. It then kind of all culminated at the end in 2010, when the DREAM Act came out for a vote. It kind of passed through the House; it was historic, it never happened before. And then it died in the Senate. It was also very frustrating because ( ) Yeah, one of them was, like it taught me a lot it was I realized like how everything political everything is. We were all used as political talking points from the very beginning. I felt I hadn’t really realized until ( ). A lot of us were kind of disappointed, disheartened—that it hadn’t passed.
HG: And so since then, you’ve taken a lot of those strategies and activities back here to the UNC campus in North Carolina through working Students United for Immigrant Equality and the One State One Rate campaign? Can you talk about that campaign here? You know, where it’s at now, where is it now.
EV: Yeah, when I came back to UNC part of the reason I took my gap year, I wanted to learn new strategies and bringing them back to campus. One of my main goals coming to UNC, starting at UNC, I wanted to change the way that immigrants are viewed across North Carolina. I want to say, probably, I was, I’m pretty sure I’m like the first, really open undocumented at UNC’s campus, currently at UNC. And so I definitely shared my story a lot and a lot of the students were kind of taken aback. It was like, “I’ve never met anyone who’s been undocumented. What are you doing here?” I think they also kind of realized, “You’re just like me. Er, kind of like me, trying to get an education.” So. It felt great that through Students United for Immigrant Equality we kind of were challenging what immigrants look like. Yeah, what immigrants look like. And so, we did a lot of events kind of informing students, one of our biggest goals was that we want to inform student and let them know what, who immigrants are and why they’re here to begin with, and so I heavily did that my first few years at UNC having rallies and trying to engage other students and there are a couple of undocumented students and luckily, some of them, some of them came up to me, some of them mostly privately those who were undocumented, would be like, “This is great, thank you for doing this, I can’t show my story right now but I want to let you know that I’m also undocumented.” So I was like, really great to hear that from other students, some who I’ve never expected they were undocumented….they were telling me that they were undocumented, and I was like” what?” It was really great it motivated me to continue this because it kind of made me realize, that we were having an impact you know, sharing our stories and then last year, one of the things we wanted to do was bring race awareness in disparities on access on education for undocumented students. Policy for North Carolina is that if you’re undocumented you don’t qualify for instate tuition regardless of how long you’ve lived here. In my case, I’ve lived here for over seventeen years and regardless I’m still considered an international student, and so you know, it’s really unfair because I know I’ve heard of students, students have told me that they’ve lived here for two years and they’ve now been considered instate students, so that’s really disappointing, really unfair, we want to share that awareness and we started one state “One Rate Campaign” basically asking the UNC system to change their practice of charging instate tuition to undocumented students and instead charge them in state tuition if they met the requirements that they were probably going to set out, you know, if you met these requirements you get in-state tuition students and so we knew that it wasn’t going to be an easy battle. Obviously North Carolina has also become radically left,
HG: You mean, right?
EV: Right, right! I mean--I wish I was fluent. Radically left? Politically, dramatically right. (Laughs) So, it was going to be a hard battle, but we still tried. We got over 1000 signatures within, like, a week of the Campaign going live from UNC students, for ( ) faculty, the alumni. It was great to hear from the alumni. From the class of ‘eighty-three, with some of them saying, “This is great, I support this and I can’t believe we haven’t done this yet.” So it was really great. You know really, really, a diverse college of people who support this. And our goal was to present it to the Chancellor, hearing her thoughts on this. At the time I was on her Student Advisory Committee so I saw her like once a month. So there wasn’t an excuse that I couldn’t ask her in person, in front of other people, what her thoughts were, and begin. The first time that I asked for this, her excuse was that, “I’m new to this position. I know what the Dream Act is, but I’m transitioning from a private university that gives scholarships to undocumented students as a department, to UNC, which is a public university. I know it’s tricky. It’s tricky to do that. I can’t give an answer right now because I want to learn more about the issue.” I somewhat understood where she was coming from. She’s new, she’s learning the system, she also has probably a lot of other demands, other people are also pushing her to do a lot of other things at once. We were kind of--she’s at least seemed receptive listening, which was great. I can’t say that for Chancellor Thorp. I also knew Chancellor Thorp and we also tried to get him to publicly support this issue as he was leaving UNC and he was really not--. He didn’t want to do anything. And that’s, again, in my opinion, was really disappointing because he’s a university leader and that’s just--I definitely would say that I’m OK. I was really disappointed by the way that he said “I’m not going to do anything on this issue. I know where you’re coming from, but I’m not going to support this issue.” I think it’s disappointing especially from an educator who should, out of all people should know, that education is a right. Through this campaign, later in the semester we had a call-in-day to the chancellor’s office, which was met with great success. And a lot of people called her office, because her chancellor’s assistant and the chancellor herself told me that they received a lot of calls that they kind of--good thing. And then like later on we were able to get Faculty Council to pass a resolution in support of in-state tuition for undocumented students. It was great. The Chancellor was actually there the day that we debated this. ( ) The chancellor was there, the Provost was there, other like top officials from UNC were there, and. But overall the reception was really, really positive. Some--one of them were like “You know, I can’t believe this. We weren’t aware of this or that.” Again, really supportive and unanimously passed, so it was great. That’s the first time that anything like that’s ever happened, at least definitely in the state, in a public university in the state. And we also got the Daily Tar Heel, the student newspaper, as well as the Campus Y and Student Congress to also pass resolutions in support. So it was great to see the support from across campus.
HG: So where are we at right now?
EV: So, there hasn’t been activity this semester, mainly because I stepped down because I was running my own campaign.
HG: For Student Body President
EV: For Student Body President. So it would have been a little overwhelming. But I do think that obviously my Student Body President campaign and this in-state tuition campaign were not coordinated or related at all. They were like--it was like the One State One Rate, and it was kind of a super late, last minute campaign that me and some other people talked about. But I do think had I been in office, I think it would’ve shown the general assembly and other people in the state that undocumented students are involved in our campus and are just like any other student and the only thing lacking is a piece of paper. We could have been good example, of students are involved. A lot of us are using the opportunities that we’ve been given. We’re positively making good impact on our schools and the state, so.
HG: No, that’s really, that’s really interesting-- Reflections on where things are at right now with respect to all of these issues that are in flux. I should probably wind down our interview just because you’ve been so generous with your time. I wonder, are you planning to be more-- Are you going to be starting up this campaign again in the fall? What’s sort of the next-- Where are you looking now? You’ve had some time to reflect upon your student body president campaign, but sort of, where do you see things headed right now?
EV: Yeah, so I haven’t really thought about that. I mean, I have had a lot of time to think about all the things, but I don’t know what I’m doing-- what I’m doing yet. Which is kind of exciting and scary at the same time. I don’t know. The great-- one of the great things that I’ve realized is that more and more students across the state are also stepping up and sharing their stories which is amazing. I think it’s great that it’s not just me or, like a handful of people. It’s a good number of people. More and more wanting to share our stories, wanting to explore themselves. One of my goals would be to see those students also be spear-heading this initiative. Honestly, in-state tuition doesn’t really affect me anymore. I have one more year left at UNC. If I really wanted to really, don’t have to be involved anymore because, and I honestly didn’t—Honestly I didn’t have to be involved from the beginning, because I didn’t have in-state tuition, but I had a scholarship that pays for my education. I did this because I wanted-- I didn’t want other students to have to do what I had to go through: the uncertainty, the anxiety, of not knowing what your future holds. And so, definitely, I’m still planning to be involved but I think it’s time for more, new leaders to step up and change this issue. Help change this issue. So I think one other thing that I would love to see is giving them a platform. Be the ones leading the conversation, like in-state tuition, or immigration, at UNC and in the state. Because, you know, we need more fresh blood, as the saying goes – to change our conversation. This can’t be like, you now, people like myself anymore.
HG: I mean, that’s funny because you’re already viewing yourself as someone who is aging out of-- or maybe someone who’s had the opportunity to have a platform, and you’re interested in others coming along.
EV: Yeah, and also I don’t know what—where—I’ll be a year from now. I don’t think in-state tuition is going to pass in this year for sure. I’m hoping maybe next year. I think some people are looking at maybe next year. I’m hoping that next year, but it may be longer than that. I also don’t know what I’ll be doing in a year from now, after I graduate. I might leave the state. You know ( ) if I’m not going to be around. If I can do anything, it should be like helping build new leaders and stepping up. Those of us who are graduating like you know, like Pía, who’s graduated, and other people. Who’s going to take over for us at UNC or just, yeah, and leading the conversation. I would love to if situation is really important, but I think there are bigger pictures, immigration reform. I think if immigration reform would happen, it would help in alleviate a lot of these concerns. And so that’s something that’s I’m obviously interested and. Yeah. I think it’s time for other people to lead. So that’s definitely one of my goals this year incoming that I plan to not be as active anymore because I also want to enjoy my senior year and chill during my senior year. (Laughs)
HG: Oh, wow. (Laughs). Emilio thank you so much for sharing all of this, I really appreciate it, so.
EV: Thanks for interviewing.
HG: Thank you.
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R-0699 -- Vicente, Emilio.
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Emilio Vicente discusses his and his family’s immigration experience as K’iche-speaking Mayans in Guatemala coming to Siler City, North Carolina in 1997. He discusses his early education as the only K’iche speaker in his public schools and feeling different from Spanish-speaking Latinos in his school. He talks about how his family emphasized learning English and Spanish over preserving K’iche, and how he regrets losing his “first culture.” He talks about how his father was paralyzed in a workplace accident which influenced his parents’ decision to return to Guatemala. He discusses his activism to gain greater equality and access to education for undocumented students, like himself. He talks about working on the national United We Dream campaign in Washington, D.C. and bringing the methods he learned there to the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill campus, where he started the One State One Rate campaign, to get in-state tuition for undocumented students, and Students United for Immigrant Equality.
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
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No restrictions. Open to research.
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25 June 2014
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R0699_Audio.mp3
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/20189">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>