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https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/6f6508d06504d02f1034d9606934f16c.mp3
ec48c8df13c2da71458999516f92b34b
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/f4b8c853791f0f0d79445be8a9e95095.pdf
84c7a3b7eb0fc85d495ad357e7b7c0df
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-1016
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
Fecha
2023-04-03
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Roditti, Niccolo Abel.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Directors, NGOs and institutes
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1996
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Non-binary
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Guayaquil -- Guayas -- Ecuador
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Durham -- Durham County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-79.8868741 -2.1900563),1996,1;POINT(-78.9018053 35.996653), ,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Prause, Myri.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Niccolo Roditti, who was born in 1996 in Guayaquil, Ecuador and moved to the U.S. at age three, is the Assistant Director of the LGBTQ Youth Center of Durham, part of the LGBTQ Center of Durham. Niccolo discusses conflicts and other intersections of queerness and traditional Ecuadorian culture. In addition to describing the experiences of queer people in Ecuador versus in various parts of the U.S., they explore their own simultaneous navigation of their queer and Latine identities, especially in the context of their family. They came out to their parents and later their extended family despite facing homophobia/heteronormativity and machismo, as well as the pressure to maintain the image of a “Catholic, traditional Ecuadorian family”. Connected to that, Niccolo talks about collectivism in Ecuadorian culture, and in queer spaces. They also discuss how socioeconomic status relates to queer Latine experiences. Additionally, Niccolo examines the presence and representation of queer and Latine people in a number of spaces and contexts, including educational institutions, media, the traditionally gendered Spanish language, and drag, in which they perform.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Niccolo Roditti by Myri Prause, 03 April 2023, R-1016, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29361
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Community and social services and programs; Culture; Family; Gender; Identity
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Directores de ONG e institutos
Es: Género de entrevistado
No binario
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Niccolo Roditti, quien nació en 1996 en Guayaquil, Ecuador y se mudó a los EE.UU. a los tres años, es el Director Asistente del Centro Juvenil LGBTQ de Durham, parte del Centro LGBTQ de Durham. Niccolo discute conflictos y otras intersecciones de la cultura ecuatoriana tradicional y la comunidad queer. Además de describir las experiencias de gente queer en Ecuador en comparación con varias partes de los EE.UU., el explora su propia navegación simultánea de sus identidades queer y latine, especialmente en el contexto de su familia. Salió del clóset ante sus padres y luego su familia extendida a pesar de enfrentar homofobia/heteronormatividad y machismo, así como la presión de mantener la imagen de una “familia ecuatoriana católica y tradicional”.** Conectado a esto, Niccolo habla sobre el colectivismo en la cultura ecuatoriana, y en espacios queer. También discute cómo el estatus socioeconómico se relaciona con las experiencias queer latines. Además, Niccolo examina la presencia y representación de gente queer y latine en una serie de espacios y contextos, incluyendo instituciones educativas, los medios, el idioma español tradicionalmente género-binario, y el drag, en el que participa. **Esta cita es traducida del inglés.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Niccolo Roditti por Myri Prause, 03 April 2023, R-1016, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Cultura; Familia; Genero; Identidad; Programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Myri Prause: Today is the 3rd of April, 2023. My name is Myri Prause. I am interviewing--
Niccolo Roditti: Niccolo Roditti--
MP: --at the LGBTQ Center of Durham. First of all, could you introduce who you are, and what you see as the most important parts of your identity?
NR: Yeah, so… hi, my name is Niccolo Roditti; my pronouns are they/he; and I am a non-binary Latine person, and also neurodivergent. I guess those are the three salient identities that are really important to me. Obviously, they seem important to the rest of the world too, because those are things that you now are expected to hear, or is a more generalized norm in terms of what to say to someone about who you are.
MP: Could you tell me about how you moved with your parents from Ecuador to the U.S. when you were three?
NR: Yeah. Being born in Guayaquil, Ecuador…don’t really remember much [laughs]. But what was interesting was that moving from Ecuador to the United States at three was really because of what was happening in the United States was opportunity from Bill Clinton’s policies of immigration allowing there to be applications passed from mother to daughter, which was my mom’s case. My dad didn’t come with us initially; he actually came four years later--
MP: Okay.
NR: --because his application was stalled. But again, we left because of the financial institution collapse of Ecuador / political instability, and a lot of teen gang violence. All of that in Guayaquil led to the decision of coming to the United States.
MP: Have you talked with your mom at all about how it was for her to come to the U.S. initially with you but not with her husband?
NR: Yeah, I think that goes into the context of their relationship, and my mom being kind of a Type A person. She was adaptable to it because she was very much “I want to do this in my way”, so I think, in that sense, she was more of the go-getter in that relationship. For her, it felt natural for her to come here, and to make it feel like it was her job to do everything. That woman, she is a role model. She learned English while she was working at an airport job, and just had a dictionary. She would work three jobs, and then started temp jobs in some financial institutions, and then my dad eventually came. My mom really worked her way up, learning English, doing some jobs, and then setting up some ground for when my dad came.
MP: How did your life eventually lead you to here, the LGBTQ Center of Durham? What has your life been like between when you moved from Ecuador and now?
NR: That’s a really good question. I think Rhode Island was interesting, where we first moved, because I went to a charter school primarily, and I was learning English. And so now, reflecting back on that time, I think it was a really good time when I learned a lot about acceptance. I went to a charter school that really had a lot of principles about equality. The assistant director and the director were queer. A lot of that stuff was just normal to me, but not necessarily in the forefront.
Coming to North Carolina, it’s kind of its own story as to what leads me to here. I grew up in Charlotte, graduated, was closeted. That made me not want to leave the state but to go somewhere else. NC State was affordable, and I knew it had a good reputation. There, I already had this thirst for wanting to know “why?” for things. A lot of times, it was injustices--growing up, not knowing why certain things were the way they were. At NC State, I did International Studies and Psychology. I really loved learning how all those things melded into what I wanted to do, so I worked in immigrant rights, I worked in foreign policy stuff with Latin America. I was interested in always being able to figure out “how can communities do better?” That led me to doing AmeriCorps after I graduated, and that was in Durham. That’s when I really fell in love with Durham, and the work that Durham does, as an org. I would say that I have such a knowledge of how Durham works, with non-profits and city governments. I taught in laundromats--literacy to Black and brown kids, through Book Harvest--and I did stuff with Student U. Overall, I was getting really good knowledge of what community looks like, not just for my age but for the actual communities I was helping.
Unfortunately, the pandemic happened. My main job I was doing at that time was with the Domestic Violence Center, doing education prevention with youth. And all those things made me apply to Vanderbilt’s Master’s program for Community Development and Action. I got in; I left [Durham]. And then two years later, after I graduated, I came back, because my boss--and this is what they say: networking is so important--my boss now was a coworker of mine when I left that center. And because he knew I worked really well with youth--we already had that work style--I was referred to apply to the job. It honestly just fell into my hands, which was great.
MP: Speaking of Vanderbilt, in our previous discussion you talked about some of the differences that you see between the acceptance of Latinx people and immigrants, and also LGBTQ people, in Tennessee versus in Durham and other parts of North Carolina. Could you talk a bit about that right now?
NR: I think that’s one thing that--first, it’s just so interesting how norms work. If we were not in the South, and we had less of the geography of the South, then all those--no one knows what Durham was; North Carolina and Tennessee probably would be clumped together. Similarly, with the hate bills; on a state level we’ve had our own introductions of bills that are really anti-LGBTQ. What’s interesting though is that, I think, North Carolina’s history--and this is probably just me being a North Carolinian--each region has really rich history. I think that’s because it’s on the east coast; it’s older; there’s not a huge mountain range that blocks you to get to the next state. All that to say to that there’s been more time here; there’s been more diversity here first. If we think about the immigration population, there’s a huge boom now of Latin folks going to Tennessee, like you would see in the mid-2000s in North Carolina--and you’re still seeing here. All of that to say that I think that all influences how fast culture has gone. Again, you see that with more time, more acceptance here, more established communities that have done the work.
When I went to Tennessee, also, the geography doesn’t help. The regions here are so interconnected within two to three hours. Over there, there’s only three major cities, and they’re all three hours from each other. And then Chattanooga, which is at the bottom. I think that isolation allows there to be these pockets of great acceptance, like there is here, for LGBTQ folks, and Latine folks, but when you go into the rural areas, it’s such a well-known thing--if you go thirty minutes outside of the city, it’s completely different. In Tennessee you will get, very much, stares. It’s really uncomfortable. I remember, once, I went hiking during the pandemic, an hour and a half outside of Nashville, and it was like a scene from a movie. You know when you open the door, and everyone does that, like, ‘skrrt’ back, and looks? It was so interesting to feel that, because--you get stares in North Carolina, too; I’m not gonna lie. But that type of--these people are acting straight out of a movie, in terms of how uncomfortable they felt, just with the presence of us. It was really strange. And there’s more of that over there, as you see, with everything going on. But again, I think that goes with institutional history: education there; what does that look like? what is its history before? all that. And why those three cities are completely different; that’s another thing. Nashville is really an interesting place in terms of where it’s set. I think geography and state history has a lot to do with why they’re different. Because the similarity is just that they’re southern and there are queer people there.
MP: Somewhat connected to what you just said, you mentioned earlier that, for a while, you were closeted. Can you, if you’re willing to, talk about when you decided to come out of the closet and how it was to make that decision? And what it felt like afterward?
NR: Honestly, I think this is interesting because, for me personally, being neurodivergent with ESL stuff as a kid, I think to me it was a blessing even though it caused a lot of struggles. I was learning about a lot of things, and while doing that I was able to grow up and use television and media as a way to learn a lot of norms. Like I said, in Rhode Island, I was--not sheltered, but I was just taught in a different way. There wasn’t a lot of issues being presented to me. I also was dealing with a lot of emotional strife at home, with my family.
So, as a kid, I was just growing up, soaking in a lot of information, and then when I came to North Carolina I was bullied a lot in the sixth grade, which was the point of, also, self-awareness for me. I was being told that--being younger, I was a year younger from my age in school, and so my voice didn’t drop. I was also the smartest kid. I was put in an all-boys class--it was a test they were doing where, of the three different levels of class instruction you could be in, I was in the middle, and anyone who was not honors or not standard was put in an all-boys, all-girls, or standard, as a test to see if that made a difference. That also made it worse, because I was in a room full of all boys, and I was the smartest kid, and also feminine, and therefore taking up space in a way that other people were like, “okay, you’re queer”, and I was like, “what is that?” So, I think because I came from it as a place of other people telling me a lot, I was freaked out. I now felt like there was a mask being put on that I didn’t really understand why. And at the same time--by that time I already knew there were norms about not being feminine from my dad. And not really understanding why, but knowing that he didn’t like that.
I think there was a lot of these--again, not understanding what was going on, but in eighth grade, “The Real World: D.C.”, that season there was a hot guy, and he was bi, and I was like, “holy shit, this person is telling me that they like women and like men.” And it fluctuated in the show, how he was really into women in the beginning and then it turned into him really liking men. I think that justification of…it doesn’t matter what spectrum or what day you like--just knowing that this person was involved with two different genders at that time. I was like, “that was really cool.” So, from there, I was able to start watching MTV more; I watched a lot of shows like Teen Wolf, which had a lot of queerness in it. Internally, I was building such a big repertoire of media and culture, of what queerness meant to me. But I knew that there was this line of threshold that I didn’t want to cross as a high school student, because I knew that it could have led to me being kicked out, or it could have led to my parents not giving me as much freedom as I had as a kid, or financial support. So, I waited, and knew--it was so interesting, I had this plan, knowing that I had to go to grad school, and there was a point where I would finally live my life. And then, once I went to college, I already had come out to a group of kids in high school, because I joined theater my tenth-grade year. That really helped because, I think coming out to a few amount--and I also went to a very person-of-color-heavy high school, and queer-person-of-color-heavy high school. I now realize that was a privilege, knowing what the education system is like in the United States. It was really, really a blessing to go to a place that was completely accepting of my brownness and also of my queerness. It was really awesome. But again, there was this four-year period of…I was very involved; my parents thought it was an extracurricular; everyone in the school in general--there was not that much homophobia; trans folks were already socially transitioned and were living as any other student in every grade.
So, going to college, I didn’t realize that there was all of these, like, “oh, I have been living this inconsistent life”, and the closetedness really was hard. I didn’t realize how much it was weighing on me because I had such a great high school experience. I came out within a semester at college, so once it was on my mind again--I used to get really afraid of the consequences, and I think in college I was able to realize there was a distance, and I knew that my parents really needed a certain distance. I think, intrinsically, I knew my timeline, into when I needed to come out in a more safe way. And I came out through email [laughs]. Everyone was like, “that’s so insincere!” and I was like, “you don’t know my parents. They are so dramatic as people that they’re gonna appreciate that they didn’t have a chance to say whatever they wanted, on their mind, when they initially found out. Later on, like a month later, they were like, “you were right.” So, that’s how I was able to transition out of being closeted into being open at NC State.
MP: Thank you for sharing that. There are a lot of follow-up questions I could ask at this point, but I’d like to go back to your parents. You mentioned that a lot of your ideas about norms regarding masculinity, and femininity, were very heavily influenced by your father; and when we talked before, you mentioned specifically that your father was a link to Ecuadorian norms and especially machismo. Could you talk about that?
NR: Yeah, that’s a really good linkage that you had in terms of our past conversation, especially with my brother, and how I see it now more, how it’s totally real. With me, I think it’s interesting that my dad didn’t necessarily want to come here. It’s interesting how you see a culture within a person who’s very privileged and saw a lot of privileges within that culture. Coming here, and seeing a child who is representing a lot of mixture of cultures and schooling and language, as a kid, and him being like, “this isn’t okay, that’s not okay, this isn’t okay.” I think what’s interesting was that that made me feel very isolated as a person, because I knew I wasn’t necessarily a White American, but as I got older and more people started doing things like him, especially the Latin guys, it got harder to be around them. I was a skater kid, an emo with a bunch of Latin skater kids, from like 6th to 9th, 10th grade. But then the norms of being macho, and not going to the smart classes, and not necessarily taking school clearly, or getting involved with a bunch of older folks who may be doing drugs, or whatever the case is; each one had their own situation. My paths and who I was in terms of how I represented myself and also the ways that I thought about education, the way I wanted to succeed, did not match up the way masculinity was being presented to so many Latin men of color. My dad, I think, represented that.
There’s been a healing of me reclaiming that through my own queerness, and my queer family I have that’s Latin--my chosen queer family. I think that’s interesting because my dad’s representation really was a denial for such a long time, but re-finding that for myself now, and seeing that my dad is going through his own change in his own masculinity, and that my brother has a healthier version of my dad’s masculinity, you see that it’s more reassuring now than what it was. I think, before, it was definitely a big obstacle in feeling completely whole within my queerness and Latinidad, which a lot of people still have a struggle with. Like my cousin: she’s the same age as me, and she hasn’t been able to leave Charlotte; she has two kids; and she’ll say that she still feels this big resentment toward Latin culture because of the experiences she had, too. And me realizing our only different experience is that I’ve left Charlotte, I’ve found my queer chosen family, and a lot of them are Latin. So, it’s interesting also to see how my cousin has been stuck in her own ways of feelings toward the culture, and a lot of that also dealing with masculinity and how it has denied her, as a Latin woman, certain things too. Yeah, machismo is definitely a big part of feeling identified, which I think we’ll go into later in the interview. That’s probably why it’s really hard to figure out “what does queerness look like in Ecuador?”, because everyone’s trying to adapt to the norm, which is still pretty rigid and centralized on masculinity.
MP: Thank you. Going off that, can you talk a bit more about the norms in Ecuador, and, based on your experience--I know you don’t remember living there, I assume, before you were three--but, I think you mentioned you did visit Ecuador--
NR: Yeah.
MP: --and so, based on that experience, how would you describe to someone who has not been there the difference between norms in the U.S. and in Ecuador?
NR: Yeah. I think, also, Facebook has helped, because my dad has a huge family, and so I think, to me, it’s like I’ve always lived there, because I’ve seen all the different families and how they’re all in different classes of economic status. And I would say that, in general, the norms--it’s really centered around family, going to school and then getting your own job; a lot of it is based off things that you should do to establish a good life for yourself, or what is seen as a good life. That involves, usually, a private Catholic school, because public education there is not as funded as it is in the U.S., or there’s a lot of cracks in the systems, or it’s viewed as low-income; there’s a lot of classism involved with that. I think as soon as you say that, you’re like, “Catholic school, bingo! There’s a huge religion portion to it.” And the schools that they’re going to. There’s also a dual-language thing now. Private schools don’t have to be just Catholic anymore; there’s English/Spanish dual enrollment schools there. So, there’s other types of private schools there now, in Ecuador. And I think that’s one thing that’s interesting, that when my cousins have been growing up, they’ve been seeing the change, and have been told what it’s been like. It’s gotten very Americanized over there, but not necessarily the family stuff. So, I will definitely say, again, family is first. And maintaining the image of the family. That means putting on masks, or sacrificing parts of yourself. I say that to say that it’s so interesting that--Facebook again is a good example--Ecuadorians, specifically my dad’s Ecuadorian family--there’s maybe sixty people I’m talking about when I say “my dad’s family”--
MP: Oh, wow.
NR: Yeah, and he was the youngest of ten. All of his older brothers and sisters had children that were his age, so their children are my age, and some of them already have children. So, a lot of people are on Facebook, and there’s still a lot of--one is that my dad says “maricón” all the time. It’s such a slang to say the f-word in Spanish, just like we say, “hey, bitch.” Even as he says it, it doesn’t--but that is…let’s just start there. And a lot of feminized words in slang are still used, like when your wife is telling you something to do. My dad is the one who always held these masculine tropes. He would be like, “oh, don’t be a mandarina!”, don’t be a mandarin orange. Basically, being squishable. Don’t let your woman assert over you. It’s interesting, because my dad as a person, definitely in jokes and the ways that people navigate it--he was funny, but it was always, “let’s poke around the image of what you’re doing that isn’t Ecuadorian, and let’s make fun of it.” That is a lot of things that are family-bound, but also, in general, that’s what humor is like in a lot of families, which is why there’s so much resentment in the kids. It’s this “let’s poke fun at what isn’t us”, because there’s a strength to that. But also, when your kids become more than just what you’ve imagined, that’s when it gets this weird, tricky part. I see that with certain of my cousins that don’t have the best relationships with their parents, some who’ve left Ecuador and now live in the U.S., and others who maintain those norms.
MP: Once again, there are a lot of questions I could ask at this point, but I’d like to go back to Catholicism, which you mentioned has a lot of influence in Ecuador. And you were also just talking about a sort of image of a proper family. How do you think that Catholicism has influenced what that image is, and also the acceptance of LGBTQ folks in Ecuador?
NR: I think the image one in Catholicism is definitely there. We can talk about the queerness one, because it’s just not talked about. It’s still these very big institutional dogmas in Catholicism where it’s like, “it’s not right.” Those who maybe are sixty-plus, that generation will not even--if they weren’t already accepting, there’s not that much room for them. The people my parents’ age, in terms of LGBTQ, that’s where it depends on how religious we’re talking about. Right now, it’s kind of the same as the U.S. But when it comes to just in general, I recently have come out to my whole family on Facebook, and even my parents were shocked. It was the complete opposite of what they thought would happen, but I think it’s because I waited and I had the language and words to describe what I was doing. That was a big shock, for a lot of us. The whole thing of protecting the image and the family was so big that my parents brought that anxiety into me, of like, “this thing will break your dad’s relationship with his whole family.” It’s so interesting how the norm becomes its own fear. It’s its own monster because you go to church, or--my parents, we never went to church; we only went to church when I had communion and then confirmation, which was in eighth grade. Or when they fought. It goes back to this image of--even if you aren’t the most religious person, for some reason there’s this whole thing of like, “well, the closer we want to be to this image of who the good family is, we’re gonna be the closest to Catholic ideals.” I think, because my parents really, really wanted to showcase that, because of a bunch of stuff that was not that at home--knowing how radical and open my parents were, I now really am starting to process why they were like that. They were chasing this image that involved a lot of Catholic, homophobic understandings of life…that didn’t necessarily influence them at all, but for some reason with me--and now I’ve really understood--it was this mixture of, yes, some overall LGBTQ…internalized homophobic ideals, really clouded in masculinity, but that mixed in with this chasing of what an ideal family looked like, and my mom needing to comfort my dad’s machismo in that ideal. It led to them being like, “your queerness is an issue, because we won’t focus on it but when things are bad we’re gonna focus on it, because we need to as tight-knit of a family, as tight-kit of this Catholic, traditional Ecuadorian family, as you can be.” But I think, in general, you’re seeing a lot of families starting to just not give a shit about that anymore, quite frankly. And I think you’re seeing a lot more interesting things pop up. I don’t know if there’s a word for it; just more interesting, because I think things are becoming more real. You’re seeing a lot more truth coming out now in a lot of different families.
MP: Going off that, you said that your parents--when you came out to your whole family on Facebook, what they thought would happen was different from what did happen. Could you explain what exactly did happen? People, you seemed to imply, were more accepting than your parents had imagined they would be?
NR: Yeah. And also, again, this goes back to the--everything’s so intertwined, and it’s such a huge ( ). Being an immigrant, I know that job status is everything. And a lot of times, the classism will be its own barrier to validate your experience. It doesn’t matter, you can be a millionaire and have a homophobic Latin parent: they will love you and praise you to the ends and beyond if you are a hard worker and you made that money. They will at least learn how to stay in connection with you. However, if that happened, and let’s say you work at Little Caesar’s, they’ll continue to focus on how, “well, your life is not in order, so maybe this has to do with it.” Or, “these things have to do with it.” I think, me coming out when I did, I knew getting this job would help me come out in general. Because I’m like, “what are you gonna say? I’m the associate director of an LGBTQ youth center. I do drag for my job.” I was like, “woah, this is the time to do it.” We had a National Coming Out Day queer social thing that I started--there’ll be one in the end of this month--and it was so interesting, I think, because it was part of my job, it was to youth, it was to this community-ness. It appealed to all the things that Latin people love, and also goes to show that Latin people are very, very much resistant to change. That’s really it, this resistance to change, which, historically, when you have a mixed race of a bunch of colonized folks and indigenous folks and colonizers, all within the same area, and descendants of enslaved folks--all of that, there’s a lot of resistance to change because that land has changed so much. That’s its own evolution that needs to happen in Latin culture. You don’t realize how much, really, there is acceptance in these communities. It’s just the education and the exposure to experience, which is why, I think, we got what we got--because there’s a new experience; they all loved me; they got someone who understood how to explain what needed to be said about my identity, and why, and how it helped my mental health. I knew certain things that would help my Latin family be like, “well, if this was something that made this person feel so ‘life and death’, or made them feel so bad, and look, this person is now announcing who they are, but with a job that is telling them that they can do this…” To them, I think, it was the right exposure of, “oh, in this whole status update I’m affirmed by the outside world that his job is okay. Like, people want that there. People are paying people to do that.” And there was also this, “oh, this person is publicly putting their face in drag on Facebook, and non-family are commenting, being like, ‘yes, you look so amazing!’” I think who I am and my role right now, and the people I have supporting me in life, all allow there to be multiple experiences that Ecuadorian people were to say, “oh, this is actually okay.” It was helpful for me to realize--I knew that was gonna happen, but the fear of change that my parents instilled in me, thinking that wasn’t gonna happen--but no, a bunch of them just said, “we love you. This is great! This is nice.” Some of them started following my Instagram drag account, and I was like, “don’t do that. Unfollow me, please. We don’t need to do that.” But it was really cool; there was not any hate at all. Not one bit. So that was a really good, interesting thing to happen.
MP: To go off what you said about the focus on success--specifically economic success, having a good job--within families that have immigrated to the U.S. from Latin America, how do you think it would have been different for you if, say, hypothetically, you had come out to your family but you were not also the…what is your position?
NR: Assistant Director.
MP: Assistant Director. What if you were in a bad situation? What if you were struggling, and in that sort of situation you came out to them? How do you think they would have taken it then?
NR: There was a five-year conflict that answers to this, with my mom specifically. She really needed to see that, because she fought so much for her own success that she’s in this category of the hardworking immigrant that is like, “I need to see what I did, but even more beyond, because I gave you these opportunities.” A lot of adults are like that, and I think that goes to show that, sometimes, out of their own resistance to feeling what that comes from, or maybe not having time to figure that out, it’s usually projected onto us. Again, it’s this threshold mark. If you haven’t had it, there’s not gonna be as much active listening about your identity as you want. They may listen to you, but as soon as you hit too much about your problems as an individual, and they know that you have a shitty life situation, they’re shady, they’re gonna be like, “well, why aren’t you doing something about it?” They’re gonna be like, “well, we can’t even talk about you and your relationship.” Or, if you got misgendered at the street, they’re like, “well, you can’t pay rent.” The more that Latin folks are realizing it is okay to be who you are and still want to acknowledge and honor certain collectivist principles, there are certain things that do impede each other. I think that’s one of those, that, without essentially thinking of yourself through them for your job, it’s this failure. And therefore, anything that you feel is beyond that, they’re like…that reciprocity has been disconnected, if that makes sense. They’re expecting this; therefore, they can’t give you what you need as an individual, because they all feel like, as a family, they were not given what they were expected. That’s reality, which is why you’re seeing a lot of these norms shift and change. And they are hopefully becoming more case-by-case, and less generalizable about what Latin families look like in terms of lack of acceptance because of class being a huge issue, or success.
MP: Thank you. You mentioned collectivism as part of Ecuadorian and, more broadly, Latin American culture. In the context of, on one hand, to some extent, in some families, non-acceptance of queer folks, how do you think that it could be valuable to maybe bring those collectivist ideas into American culture?
NR: That’s a really good question. My parents are also really young, and I think it’s helpful that I got really young parents who had a lot of traditional ideas around collectivism, and spirituality. I got some things that felt like very older ways of doing things, and a lot of strict, rigid ways of, “this is what you need to do to do this.” My brother didn’t really get that, and so I see how an individualistic mindset has really helped him feel more confident in who he is, but now he lacks certain skills that make him really scared for the future. He knows more of who he is; he’s more assured of that. But now, he’s like, “I’m eighteen. I’m graduating high school. I haven’t had as much experiences about what to do for finances, or how to figure that out. Or a job, for bills.” He’s now entering that world where, for me, I definitely feel like I’m bringing that with my friends now, realizing not everyone got the experiences that I got that helped me get to where I am now, as in my job. I got a lot of life skills really fast, and I think that’s something that you get from collectivism, because someone is there, not to hold you, but if you fall, it’s not like you’re just in one straight line. Someone may just be behind you because they’re doing something else, so there’s a way for people to catch you. And I see that in the way that my parents, with two other families, were able to really help each other, as the adults of the family, and juggle different things at different times, because they knew that the reciprocity was so important for survival. It being so understood was how it worked so well, and putting a cog in all of that is queerness just being new. Not necessarily because it’s queer, but because it was introduced as something new that isn’t necessarily for everyone. It can be, but those ideals have already been there. The ideals that you see in a lot of queer chosen families are in a lot of collectivist norms. It’s just because it wasn’t made internally; it was made externally and brought in. That is really a “what are you doing?” type of scenario. I think that’s where it butts heads: introducing new things from the outside into internal collectivist practices of a family.
MP: So, when you say “from the outside”--ideas of queerness being brought in from the outside--are you thinking of Anglo-American culture, or…?
NR: Just life. I think American culture is so--I think a good way of saying this is that indigenous folks had queerness. A lot of it was just centered around two-spirit-ness. But that’s been lost. I think in Latin America there’s a lot of people who’ve had ancestors who had queerness internally honored, but that has been reshaped and morphed for so many intentions to look more around class, and stability. Before, there was a lot more spirituality involved, before colonization. But then again, I am a product of colonization, and so this is only speaking to indigenous folks. So, I say… “outside” is that there’s so much mixture within Latin America that the main ideal is what unifies them all together: that family-ness, that survival-ness. It’s why it’s such a vast amount of countries yet there are so many similarities within culture. Because we’re talking about such a family ideal, and how it has so many imp--like, ‘tip of the iceberg’-type situation. Queerness just may not be in there for so many families, because they had to grow that very intentionally to have certain things, and because Anglo-Americans so much back then, or even Mediterranean colonizers, brought these kind of principles from religion about--heteronormative principles and internalized homophobia. And I think that, being mixed in with collectivist principles that were already there, and other stuff--that was one of the main mixes. Religion was so important as a way to dominate folks or keep people in line. That is just one of the unfortunate consequences of all of the mixtures that happened in Latin America: the survival of Catholicism is there, and therefore the socialized homophobia that follows it.
MP: Okay. Focusing more on the U.S. now, how do you think that you, and other queer Latinx folks, especially those who have immigrated from Latin America, approach their identity and their self-expression differently in different spaces?
NR: I would say that representation really matters. Again, it’s so interesting how you having diverse experiences as a diverse person becomes privileges when you meet other diverse people who didn’t have that. As a queer Latin person living in North Carolina, being able to tell you that most of my chosen family comprises of queer Latin people, I was able to recreate these beautiful collectivist ideals, but with queerness involved. Not everyone gets that. And I didn’t have that for a long time. This is three or four years where I’ve had--and thinking in that mode, I can say that I’m able to operate in any way that I want to, because I’ve learned that, but my identities definitely were separate, because it was easy to come off as one single thing. Usually, ‘one-dimensional’ means that you were less seen.
Going to that, I think about my friends that I met in Nashville, specifically one friend. She’s a queer Latin woman of color, and I was really shocked when she said that me and my roommate were the first two other queer people of color she ever met, because she’s from Iowa. And I was like, “what the hell are you”--no, not Iowa, Idaho! Like, an hour outside of Boise. I was like, “okay, you’re near an urban area”--and she really lives in Oregon, but it’s rural Oregon, because it’s next to Idaho. But she’s like, “oh, my town--half of it is Mexican.” Because she’s Mexican. So, I’m like, “oh, my god.” Just hearing her story and seeing how she evolved within the two years that I was in Nashville, I saw what I was able to get in a more incremental way, throughout life. Just seeing how it was freeing for her to be around us. I remember her crying in moments. Like, she had a really toxic relationship with one of her best friends from Idaho who actually moved--this is such a messy story. They both moved so that the friend could go to the Vanderbilt program that I was in. Quickly realized that this person was subjected to a lot of norms that made her feel disempowered, because she doesn’t navigate or communicate in the same ways as the friend that she’s not friends with. Part of that realization was seeing me and my roommate at the time. I look back at her, and her experience, and my experience, and it’s so weird to see that be so innate in people. And seeing that kind of splitting of who I was, as an identity, really left when I hit 21, 22. They were that age when they came, so it was interesting how when you graduate college, if you didn’t get that same experience in college, is when you start really recognizing all of who you are. I think there’s less norms, because you’re still kind of in a bubble. I realized that this person’s identities were trying to become one, yet people or outside stuff, norms, were the cause of her feeling so disconnected from her Latin identity for such a long time, because the queerness was an accepting part that she found in high school and in college, which usually meant a White queer space that she had to either adapt to or get used to.
MP: Going off that, and looking a bit more at the intersection of queer identities and Latinx identities, what do you think about the term ‘Latinx’ itself? I know there’s been a lot of debate around it, at least in mainstream media in the U.S., and I’d like to hear what you think about that.
NR: Yeah. I’m so fortunate for my grad program because it’s allowed me to reflect. I’m like, “let’s just put some logic into the conversation.” I would love to get people in a room where it would magically solve everything, but… ‘Latine’, obviously, is another one, because it recognizes the language for what it is, and provides a solution internally. I think ‘Latinx’ provides a solution that’s not external, just hybrid. There are Latin people that made that here. Yes, it involved a lot of non-Latin people in academia, but that doesn’t mean that Latin people were not involved in that. I am all for all of them, but that’s something that I think is contextual. I think the reason why some people don’t like ‘Latinx’ is because that wasn’t their experience; and their experience of external words being put on them might make them feel very combative. I think it’s just really understanding why people get defensive, and learning ‘what do you give to those folks, in those moments, to release them from that?’ At the end of the day, we still all know what we’re talking about. ‘Latino’, ‘Latina’, ‘Latin’, ‘Latinx’, ‘Latine’; we all know what we’re talking about. Yet there is such a huge rift, and it’s just--because we already talk so much about validation, it’s just them making sure that this one thing that made them feel seen, and connected to so many people, and history, is being shifted or changed. Again, going back to the whole resistant of change deal. It’s not necessarily because they just hate it; the exposure has not given them the comfort that they feel they need all the time so that they feel safe. And then it goes to the words.
MP: Yeah. Also, what do you think, and what experiences have you had, regarding, more broadly, the way the Spanish language is gendered?
NR: It’s so interesting, because it’s my first language but I had to relearn Spanish to be an interpreter and be able to do professional translation and interpreting. It’s so instilled, as a language. It’s so hard for me to sit here and dissect. There should be a dedicated fifteen minutes to every forum, or workshop, or panel, dedicated around unpacking that. Getting people outside of the biases of like, “well, that’s just the language.” My brain’s like, “I don’t want to do more work; that’s just what it is.” However, it’s been really easy for me to add that “-e”, instead of the “-o/-a”, for certain non-specific pronouns, like “amigo”. And also, because it sounds cool, like “amigue”. You’ll hear Latin organizers use the “-e” in other gender-expansive ways. I definitely have used it a lot more when folks who have come in here are Spanish-speaking only. But again, that’s not all of the time, and I’m telling you specific times when I use certain things and when I don’t, and most of the times it’s just gendered.
It’s really, really hard when you’re talking about trans people, especially to my parents. I switch to Spanglish, because it’s a lot easier to bring in trans inclusion, or transness, without it feeling like someone is thinking they understand what you’re saying, but, because it’s gendered Spanish, we don’t know what they’re actually thinking. If you say “they” in English, you have a much better chance of them being like, “oh, we’re talking about a gender-fluid person or non-binary person. If you do that in Spanish, it just stops the whole conversation. If you’re like, “elle”, which is the gender-neutral word of--it may really jitter someone up. They may be like, “we’re not even just talking about gender anymore; now I’m just confused.” I think that if someone knows Spanglish, it’s easier to interpret queerness, which goes back to the ‘Latinx’ thing. I think Spanglish is really what is driving a lot of these pushes for new gender expansion. Not to say that Latin America’s not doing that on its own, but I think the gendering is interesting.
I would like to hear someone from Latin America talk about it, but even then, what I hear most about from trans folks is they poke fun at it. You hear a lot of them using it for comedic jokes, or to throw shade back at someone. The same things we hear about queer communities here. You kind of find a different way, whether that’s not actually changing the language…maybe you poke fun at it through using it. I think that’s what you see too.
MP: Yeah, that’s really interesting. You mentioning how you’ll use the term ‘Latine’, or adding “-e” or “-ue” onto words, especially if there are only-Spanish-speaking people who come to visit the Center--could you talk a bit more about what the LGBTQ Center of Durham, and specifically the LGBTQ Youth Center, does to support the community?
NR: Yeah, that’s a really good question. Unfortunately, when there is not someone who is bilingual / has done interpreting in nonprofit settings, there’s a lot of educa--professional experience that really provides an advantage to implement that here. I think, before me, the Center did a really good job of trying to translate captions for posts that weren’t long; because of the algorithms and that BS, certain lengths of posts would not capture as much people on the feed. But there would also be copies of Spanish translations for the World Fair, HIV testing…the services that we do either routinely or once a month were always translated. If you don’t have an interpreter on staff, whether that’s its own thing or someone that has the capacity to interpret for the staff, like me, then you have to look at it as a money--it’s a budget. Language justice then becomes a budget line. I think because here, they never had that many clients, but now there’s specifically one Spanish-speaking client, from Colombia, who needs interpreting, so we’re able to offer that. It’s cool to know that--no one was denied offerings here because of it--but that now there’s more access that can be had. I would say that there’s just more access.
And I do have connections to Latin folks in different orgs, but I say that all to say that I think a good community will have a succession plan. So, leaving “what does language justice for this org look like?” Right now, it’s actively being done, because we’re figuring it out. But eventually, I would want to write down the things that you can do, to have more of…language justice written down, and have people know “these are the steps to do”, “this is the people to contact”, “this is the org that does interpretation that also does queer events’ interpretation. Those types of things. But for now, it’s definitely me providing those services for Spanish-speaking people.
MP: Looking more broadly at language access, what do you think the state of language access is in Durham and in North Carolina?
NR: I think language access is really, really apparent in city government structures in Durham. Everything is at least bilingual. Actually, if I look closer, there’s other languages there being represented, but everything is very bilingual, even in the community health centers. I think Durham has a lot of really good reputations for language access for Spanish-speaking clients. Now, when we leave Spanish-speaking clients and talk about language access in general, North Carolina--now, I’m understanding my own privilege, because I speak both of those languages. When I went to San Francisco for a conference, I was like, “woah, language access requires so much money. And it can be a lot more.” Like, at that conference, they had Spanish translation, and they had American Sign Language translation, and Spanish Sign Language translation, on top of interpreters for smaller communities. It was interesting: even if there’s only one queer person that may come from one specific country in Durham, that person exists. And it is unfortunate that we’re not at the place where every center can be equipped as a polyglot, or a Rosetta Stone, to answer folks. I think, in that sense, Durham is a lot like other places that are not as big as San Francisco, where a lot of this money for combinations and services and accesses being put into--we’re not New York; we’re not LA, Atlanta, so you see community initiatives, and I think there’s a lot of that here with Spanish-speaking--I think you see that legally with Spanish-speaking, in general. You go to other places and it is a little bit more robust, or you go to other places and it’s way less. Rural areas are way more impacted by this. But there is also a push to support rural workers who are predominantly known to only speak a certain language as well. There’s a lot of work being done. Is that enough? Probably not.
MP: Thank you. Going back to Ecuador, I’d like to ask--and this may get into a lot of what you’ve already said, so don’t feel like you have to repeat anything--but how do you think that your life might have gone differently if you had kept living in Ecuador?
NR: Yeah, so I think the mask would have still been on [laughter] past a certain point. I don’t think I would have come out at eighteen. But then again, you might see the same thing you see here, where friends are a huge support for that queer acceptance. And that’s helpful for me to know; maybe I could have found a good friend group. I wouldn’t know on that end. If I had to grow up there, I probably would have been miserable. Knowing also that the banks were closing, who knows what my parents--that’s what they were in, so who knows what our financial situation would have been? My possibilities would have been severely limited. I would have had to stay in line, because there would have been not as much of diverse experiences. At least in the U.S., I had access to media, to TV, to school, to so many different groups of people, because I also went to diverse schools, that I was able to realize there’s way more ways of living. I think that was helpful, for me to know that I will have my own chance to do that. I don’t know if that was my saving grace, and I don’t know if that would have been apparent for me in Ecuador. I think it would have really been like, “I don’t know if this can be enough.”
MP: You mentioned media just now, having access to more media in the U.S., so that made me want to ask: what are your thoughts about representation in media, either in the U.S. or in Ecuador, of people who are queer, and Latine, and also neurodivergent?
NR: I think it’s really important. Especially the last one. I think neurodivergence is so taboo in so many different cultures, just to talk about it, and even feel empowered about something that’s deemed a disability. That being said, I feel like that’s its own forefront, and is really starting to come up, but still lagging. When it comes to queer Spanish Latine identities, I think it’s so important because it’s affirming in a way that you never think of. I would not have come out, being non-binary, if it wasn’t for the show “We’re Here.” Do you know that show? It’s on HBO.
MP: I honestly do not. Would you like to explain it?
NR: Yeah, it’s three drag queens from “RuPaul’s Drag Race”: Shangela--just so everyone knows the context--Shangela, Bob the Drag Queen, and Eureka did it. It’s like “Queer Eye”, but not. They would go to different rural towns throughout America that are super conservative, and would help queer folks there throw on a drag show and get in drag for the first time. It’s been such a diverse show. Season Two or Three, the one that recently came out, there was one specific episode about a queer, non-binary person coming out to their parents. I never would have thought--again, fear of change; I’m still an immigrant, so it goes down to me--as quickly as it was, seeing this two-minute scene, this whole idea of, “oh, I can’t come out” completely went out the door.
MP: Oh, wow.
NR: Because I was like, “oh, this is so easy. This person doesn’t know how to speak Spanish that well; their parents don’t know how to speak English that well; I don’t have that barrier.” And they’re way more feminine-presenting than I’ve ever been, but still saying, “I’m non-binary; this is who I am; this is part of transness” was really, really powerful. I actually started crying. I was crying just because I didn’t realize how I never saw me on camera, and seeing all those identities at the same time was mind-blowing. That everything is possible. And them having some more exposure be on that person; having to talk to them; because they were also nineteen, so they were getting combative. So, I was able to see, “okay, Niccolo: I can see how your defensiveness of--yes, it’s okay to be defensive, but is that gonna help the situation? No.” I think all of those things were important to understand. There was a dynamic of it being human, and family, and having an external support system saying, “hey, we hear you. This is really hard on them too.” And having someone getting to ask them questions about their queerness, and the parents having to hear someone else being like, “I am listening to you.” I think that was all so important for me to come out. I think I came out like a week later--
MP: Oh, wow.
NR: To my parents.
MP: You talking about that show made me think back to how you said that you yourself do drag. First of all, was that show influential also in you starting that? And what has the experience been like for you, doing drag?
NR: Yeah, I’m glad…we should talk about drag. Drag, I think, is another reason why I blended both my Latin identity and queer identity. And neurodivergence. I have ADHD, and I have symptoms of borderline personality disorder. However, that shit is expensive to get properly diagnosed, and so I only have a diagnosis for ADHD. However, being also spiritual and Ecuadorian, I think that there is a such a divine opportunity to see through being categorized as someone who has personality challenges. Also, understanding that I am non-binary, and realizing that there’s so many ways of looking at it. I think drag really unlocked that for me, because I was able to create and transform myself into this completely feminine person that is me but feels completely empowered and, in all senses, the way--the air is very thin; it just feels light; it feels breathable. When I’m in that suit of a person, I am me but I feel so powerful.
I think that I knew what drag was my senior year of high school. I would have known earlier, but, again, ESL. My first year of theater, they kept talking about “Drag Race”, and I thought that they were talking about NASCAR. I’m just like, “well, I’m not gonna entertain this conversation”, because I’m like, “how the hell are these three people, who I know are gay as hell, talking about that?” Then, one day, I kept hearing them talking about this person named Shangela, and I was like, “that does not sound like a NASCAR driver.” So, I looked it up, and I was like, “oh, this is drag queens.” Watching “Drag Race” was really helpful because there was so many different types of people. And then “We’re Here” only started probably three years ago, and that was even more wholesome, because I was able to see that anything is possible. It wasn’t just ten contestants going to a show, it was “we’re going to rural areas that are actually scary, and we’re gonna support either people there that are trying to create safe spaces for queer people or are queer themselves.” I think that was really empowering, and good to feel. And I think that being when I was really starting my drag was helpful to know that “you’ve got this. And everything else comes next.” And knowing these people were so empowered by being in drag for the first time is a reminder of how much that can do for a person.
MP: I think that’s all the questions I’d like to ask. Is there anything else that you would like to share?
NR: No. Oh, well, I guess my drag name is Kali Fuchis. If you don’t know Kali Uchis--
MP: I do know Kali Uchis. [laughs]
NR: Yeah, and then ‘Fuchis’: do you know what that means?
MP: I don’t; could you explain that?
NR: Yeah, it’s Spanish slang for ‘stinky’. So, it’s camp. Just like most drag names are camp. It’s a play on Kali Uchis. So that is really fun. I’m glad to end on that note. I think my name is really, really fun, because when there are queer Latin people in the audience at a drag show, everyone is really silent because they’re truly trying to figure out what the hell my name is. They know Kali, and they’re trying to figure out--they know most drag queen names are punny, so they’re like, “what the hell is that?” But then you hear these moments of laughter, deep laughter; they’re like “that’s so stupid!” And it’s like “yes”, because that slang is so specific to you as a baby. It’s used when a kid is outside for a really long time, or doesn’t want to take his shower. It’s specifically for a little kid. So, you don’t hear that again; no one’s gonna be like, “oh, that trash stinks--”--they’re not gonna say that trash is fuchis. You would laugh because you’re like, “that’s for a child”; it’s supposed to be for a baby only, or a young toddler. So, hearing it out loud, you’re like, “what?” It’s so affirming for me to know that other queer Latin people are here, and in the audience. And that, I think, usually helps boost my energy when I’m about to perform.
MP: That does make me think of one more question. What do you think about the importance of not only focusing on the struggles that queer, Latine, neurodivergent, et cetera people face, but also the joy in their lives?
NR: I definitely think that’s really important. I would say the top things right now in a lot of queer Latine people are: listening to really good music, trying to clear your debt [laughs], and going out and dancing. I think, a lot of times, there’s such a big push to just dance and to have fun, and to talk, and to be in community. And I think all of those things are so important for people to realize. People are obsessed with Bad Bunny, they’re obsessed with Kali Uchis; we’re seeing it worldwide. Just knowing that we do all the things that everyone else does, but also knowing that, like, potlucks is a great big thing that is a Latin thing. Like, one of my new drag daughters has been obsessed with getting people over to do a potluck, and they did it, but they want to keep doing one. It’s a big thing, once you get into that rhythm of having community, to either expect someone else--, or expect at some point for there to be a gathering. And I think that’s always really nice, to know that we’re getting that back even though we’re not with our families anymore; that we’re doing that within the queer Latin gatherings, and that there’s just so much laughter happening.
MP: Thank you. I think for real this time, that is my last question.
NR: Mhm! Thank you so much.
MP: Yeah, thank you so much for talking with me!
NR: Yeah, of course!
END OF INTERVIEW
[01:06:08]
Transcriber: Myri Prause
9 April 2023
Es: Transcripción
Myri Prause: Today is the 3rd of April, 2023. My name is Myri Prause. I am interviewing--
Niccolo Roditti: Niccolo Roditti--
MP: --at the LGBTQ Center of Durham. First of all, could you introduce who you are, and what you see as the most important parts of your identity?
NR: Yeah, so… hi, my name is Niccolo Roditti; my pronouns are they/he; and I am a non-binary Latine person, and also neurodivergent. I guess those are the three salient identities that are really important to me. Obviously, they seem important to the rest of the world too, because those are things that you now are expected to hear, or is a more generalized norm in terms of what to say to someone about who you are.
MP: Could you tell me about how you moved with your parents from Ecuador to the U.S. when you were three?
NR: Yeah. Being born in Guayaquil, Ecuador…don’t really remember much [laughs]. But what was interesting was that moving from Ecuador to the United States at three was really because of what was happening in the United States was opportunity from Bill Clinton’s policies of immigration allowing there to be applications passed from mother to daughter, which was my mom’s case. My dad didn’t come with us initially; he actually came four years later--
MP: Okay.
NR: --because his application was stalled. But again, we left because of the financial institution collapse of Ecuador / political instability, and a lot of teen gang violence. All of that in Guayaquil led to the decision of coming to the United States.
MP: Have you talked with your mom at all about how it was for her to come to the U.S. initially with you but not with her husband?
NR: Yeah, I think that goes into the context of their relationship, and my mom being kind of a Type A person. She was adaptable to it because she was very much “I want to do this in my way”, so I think, in that sense, she was more of the go-getter in that relationship. For her, it felt natural for her to come here, and to make it feel like it was her job to do everything. That woman, she is a role model. She learned English while she was working at an airport job, and just had a dictionary. She would work three jobs, and then started temp jobs in some financial institutions, and then my dad eventually came. My mom really worked her way up, learning English, doing some jobs, and then setting up some ground for when my dad came.
MP: How did your life eventually lead you to here, the LGBTQ Center of Durham? What has your life been like between when you moved from Ecuador and now?
NR: That’s a really good question. I think Rhode Island was interesting, where we first moved, because I went to a charter school primarily, and I was learning English. And so now, reflecting back on that time, I think it was a really good time when I learned a lot about acceptance. I went to a charter school that really had a lot of principles about equality. The assistant director and the director were queer. A lot of that stuff was just normal to me, but not necessarily in the forefront.
Coming to North Carolina, it’s kind of its own story as to what leads me to here. I grew up in Charlotte, graduated, was closeted. That made me not want to leave the state but to go somewhere else. NC State was affordable, and I knew it had a good reputation. There, I already had this thirst for wanting to know “why?” for things. A lot of times, it was injustices--growing up, not knowing why certain things were the way they were. At NC State, I did International Studies and Psychology. I really loved learning how all those things melded into what I wanted to do, so I worked in immigrant rights, I worked in foreign policy stuff with Latin America. I was interested in always being able to figure out “how can communities do better?” That led me to doing AmeriCorps after I graduated, and that was in Durham. That’s when I really fell in love with Durham, and the work that Durham does, as an org. I would say that I have such a knowledge of how Durham works, with non-profits and city governments. I taught in laundromats--literacy to Black and brown kids, through Book Harvest--and I did stuff with Student U. Overall, I was getting really good knowledge of what community looks like, not just for my age but for the actual communities I was helping.
Unfortunately, the pandemic happened. My main job I was doing at that time was with the Domestic Violence Center, doing education prevention with youth. And all those things made me apply to Vanderbilt’s Master’s program for Community Development and Action. I got in; I left [Durham]. And then two years later, after I graduated, I came back, because my boss--and this is what they say: networking is so important--my boss now was a coworker of mine when I left that center. And because he knew I worked really well with youth--we already had that work style--I was referred to apply to the job. It honestly just fell into my hands, which was great.
MP: Speaking of Vanderbilt, in our previous discussion you talked about some of the differences that you see between the acceptance of Latinx people and immigrants, and also LGBTQ people, in Tennessee versus in Durham and other parts of North Carolina. Could you talk a bit about that right now?
NR: I think that’s one thing that--first, it’s just so interesting how norms work. If we were not in the South, and we had less of the geography of the South, then all those--no one knows what Durham was; North Carolina and Tennessee probably would be clumped together. Similarly, with the hate bills; on a state level we’ve had our own introductions of bills that are really anti-LGBTQ. What’s interesting though is that, I think, North Carolina’s history--and this is probably just me being a North Carolinian--each region has really rich history. I think that’s because it’s on the east coast; it’s older; there’s not a huge mountain range that blocks you to get to the next state. All that to say to that there’s been more time here; there’s been more diversity here first. If we think about the immigration population, there’s a huge boom now of Latin folks going to Tennessee, like you would see in the mid-2000s in North Carolina--and you’re still seeing here. All of that to say that I think that all influences how fast culture has gone. Again, you see that with more time, more acceptance here, more established communities that have done the work.
When I went to Tennessee, also, the geography doesn’t help. The regions here are so interconnected within two to three hours. Over there, there’s only three major cities, and they’re all three hours from each other. And then Chattanooga, which is at the bottom. I think that isolation allows there to be these pockets of great acceptance, like there is here, for LGBTQ folks, and Latine folks, but when you go into the rural areas, it’s such a well-known thing--if you go thirty minutes outside of the city, it’s completely different. In Tennessee you will get, very much, stares. It’s really uncomfortable. I remember, once, I went hiking during the pandemic, an hour and a half outside of Nashville, and it was like a scene from a movie. You know when you open the door, and everyone does that, like, ‘skrrt’ back, and looks? It was so interesting to feel that, because--you get stares in North Carolina, too; I’m not gonna lie. But that type of--these people are acting straight out of a movie, in terms of how uncomfortable they felt, just with the presence of us. It was really strange. And there’s more of that over there, as you see, with everything going on. But again, I think that goes with institutional history: education there; what does that look like? what is its history before? all that. And why those three cities are completely different; that’s another thing. Nashville is really an interesting place in terms of where it’s set. I think geography and state history has a lot to do with why they’re different. Because the similarity is just that they’re southern and there are queer people there.
MP: Somewhat connected to what you just said, you mentioned earlier that, for a while, you were closeted. Can you, if you’re willing to, talk about when you decided to come out of the closet and how it was to make that decision? And what it felt like afterward?
NR: Honestly, I think this is interesting because, for me personally, being neurodivergent with ESL stuff as a kid, I think to me it was a blessing even though it caused a lot of struggles. I was learning about a lot of things, and while doing that I was able to grow up and use television and media as a way to learn a lot of norms. Like I said, in Rhode Island, I was--not sheltered, but I was just taught in a different way. There wasn’t a lot of issues being presented to me. I also was dealing with a lot of emotional strife at home, with my family.
So, as a kid, I was just growing up, soaking in a lot of information, and then when I came to North Carolina I was bullied a lot in the sixth grade, which was the point of, also, self-awareness for me. I was being told that--being younger, I was a year younger from my age in school, and so my voice didn’t drop. I was also the smartest kid. I was put in an all-boys class--it was a test they were doing where, of the three different levels of class instruction you could be in, I was in the middle, and anyone who was not honors or not standard was put in an all-boys, all-girls, or standard, as a test to see if that made a difference. That also made it worse, because I was in a room full of all boys, and I was the smartest kid, and also feminine, and therefore taking up space in a way that other people were like, “okay, you’re queer”, and I was like, “what is that?” So, I think because I came from it as a place of other people telling me a lot, I was freaked out. I now felt like there was a mask being put on that I didn’t really understand why. And at the same time--by that time I already knew there were norms about not being feminine from my dad. And not really understanding why, but knowing that he didn’t like that.
I think there was a lot of these--again, not understanding what was going on, but in eighth grade, “The Real World: D.C.”, that season there was a hot guy, and he was bi, and I was like, “holy shit, this person is telling me that they like women and like men.” And it fluctuated in the show, how he was really into women in the beginning and then it turned into him really liking men. I think that justification of…it doesn’t matter what spectrum or what day you like--just knowing that this person was involved with two different genders at that time. I was like, “that was really cool.” So, from there, I was able to start watching MTV more; I watched a lot of shows like Teen Wolf, which had a lot of queerness in it. Internally, I was building such a big repertoire of media and culture, of what queerness meant to me. But I knew that there was this line of threshold that I didn’t want to cross as a high school student, because I knew that it could have led to me being kicked out, or it could have led to my parents not giving me as much freedom as I had as a kid, or financial support. So, I waited, and knew--it was so interesting, I had this plan, knowing that I had to go to grad school, and there was a point where I would finally live my life. And then, once I went to college, I already had come out to a group of kids in high school, because I joined theater my tenth-grade year. That really helped because, I think coming out to a few amount--and I also went to a very person-of-color-heavy high school, and queer-person-of-color-heavy high school. I now realize that was a privilege, knowing what the education system is like in the United States. It was really, really a blessing to go to a place that was completely accepting of my brownness and also of my queerness. It was really awesome. But again, there was this four-year period of…I was very involved; my parents thought it was an extracurricular; everyone in the school in general--there was not that much homophobia; trans folks were already socially transitioned and were living as any other student in every grade.
So, going to college, I didn’t realize that there was all of these, like, “oh, I have been living this inconsistent life”, and the closetedness really was hard. I didn’t realize how much it was weighing on me because I had such a great high school experience. I came out within a semester at college, so once it was on my mind again--I used to get really afraid of the consequences, and I think in college I was able to realize there was a distance, and I knew that my parents really needed a certain distance. I think, intrinsically, I knew my timeline, into when I needed to come out in a more safe way. And I came out through email [laughs]. Everyone was like, “that’s so insincere!” and I was like, “you don’t know my parents. They are so dramatic as people that they’re gonna appreciate that they didn’t have a chance to say whatever they wanted, on their mind, when they initially found out. Later on, like a month later, they were like, “you were right.” So, that’s how I was able to transition out of being closeted into being open at NC State.
MP: Thank you for sharing that. There are a lot of follow-up questions I could ask at this point, but I’d like to go back to your parents. You mentioned that a lot of your ideas about norms regarding masculinity, and femininity, were very heavily influenced by your father; and when we talked before, you mentioned specifically that your father was a link to Ecuadorian norms and especially machismo. Could you talk about that?
NR: Yeah, that’s a really good linkage that you had in terms of our past conversation, especially with my brother, and how I see it now more, how it’s totally real. With me, I think it’s interesting that my dad didn’t necessarily want to come here. It’s interesting how you see a culture within a person who’s very privileged and saw a lot of privileges within that culture. Coming here, and seeing a child who is representing a lot of mixture of cultures and schooling and language, as a kid, and him being like, “this isn’t okay, that’s not okay, this isn’t okay.” I think what’s interesting was that that made me feel very isolated as a person, because I knew I wasn’t necessarily a White American, but as I got older and more people started doing things like him, especially the Latin guys, it got harder to be around them. I was a skater kid, an emo with a bunch of Latin skater kids, from like 6th to 9th, 10th grade. But then the norms of being macho, and not going to the smart classes, and not necessarily taking school clearly, or getting involved with a bunch of older folks who may be doing drugs, or whatever the case is; each one had their own situation. My paths and who I was in terms of how I represented myself and also the ways that I thought about education, the way I wanted to succeed, did not match up the way masculinity was being presented to so many Latin men of color. My dad, I think, represented that.
There’s been a healing of me reclaiming that through my own queerness, and my queer family I have that’s Latin--my chosen queer family. I think that’s interesting because my dad’s representation really was a denial for such a long time, but re-finding that for myself now, and seeing that my dad is going through his own change in his own masculinity, and that my brother has a healthier version of my dad’s masculinity, you see that it’s more reassuring now than what it was. I think, before, it was definitely a big obstacle in feeling completely whole within my queerness and Latinidad, which a lot of people still have a struggle with. Like my cousin: she’s the same age as me, and she hasn’t been able to leave Charlotte; she has two kids; and she’ll say that she still feels this big resentment toward Latin culture because of the experiences she had, too. And me realizing our only different experience is that I’ve left Charlotte, I’ve found my queer chosen family, and a lot of them are Latin. So, it’s interesting also to see how my cousin has been stuck in her own ways of feelings toward the culture, and a lot of that also dealing with masculinity and how it has denied her, as a Latin woman, certain things too. Yeah, machismo is definitely a big part of feeling identified, which I think we’ll go into later in the interview. That’s probably why it’s really hard to figure out “what does queerness look like in Ecuador?”, because everyone’s trying to adapt to the norm, which is still pretty rigid and centralized on masculinity.
MP: Thank you. Going off that, can you talk a bit more about the norms in Ecuador, and, based on your experience--I know you don’t remember living there, I assume, before you were three--but, I think you mentioned you did visit Ecuador--
NR: Yeah.
MP: --and so, based on that experience, how would you describe to someone who has not been there the difference between norms in the U.S. and in Ecuador?
NR: Yeah. I think, also, Facebook has helped, because my dad has a huge family, and so I think, to me, it’s like I’ve always lived there, because I’ve seen all the different families and how they’re all in different classes of economic status. And I would say that, in general, the norms--it’s really centered around family, going to school and then getting your own job; a lot of it is based off things that you should do to establish a good life for yourself, or what is seen as a good life. That involves, usually, a private Catholic school, because public education there is not as funded as it is in the U.S., or there’s a lot of cracks in the systems, or it’s viewed as low-income; there’s a lot of classism involved with that. I think as soon as you say that, you’re like, “Catholic school, bingo! There’s a huge religion portion to it.” And the schools that they’re going to. There’s also a dual-language thing now. Private schools don’t have to be just Catholic anymore; there’s English/Spanish dual enrollment schools there. So, there’s other types of private schools there now, in Ecuador. And I think that’s one thing that’s interesting, that when my cousins have been growing up, they’ve been seeing the change, and have been told what it’s been like. It’s gotten very Americanized over there, but not necessarily the family stuff. So, I will definitely say, again, family is first. And maintaining the image of the family. That means putting on masks, or sacrificing parts of yourself. I say that to say that it’s so interesting that--Facebook again is a good example--Ecuadorians, specifically my dad’s Ecuadorian family--there’s maybe sixty people I’m talking about when I say “my dad’s family”--
MP: Oh, wow.
NR: Yeah, and he was the youngest of ten. All of his older brothers and sisters had children that were his age, so their children are my age, and some of them already have children. So, a lot of people are on Facebook, and there’s still a lot of--one is that my dad says “maricón” all the time. It’s such a slang to say the f-word in Spanish, just like we say, “hey, bitch.” Even as he says it, it doesn’t--but that is…let’s just start there. And a lot of feminized words in slang are still used, like when your wife is telling you something to do. My dad is the one who always held these masculine tropes. He would be like, “oh, don’t be a mandarina!”, don’t be a mandarin orange. Basically, being squishable. Don’t let your woman assert over you. It’s interesting, because my dad as a person, definitely in jokes and the ways that people navigate it--he was funny, but it was always, “let’s poke around the image of what you’re doing that isn’t Ecuadorian, and let’s make fun of it.” That is a lot of things that are family-bound, but also, in general, that’s what humor is like in a lot of families, which is why there’s so much resentment in the kids. It’s this “let’s poke fun at what isn’t us”, because there’s a strength to that. But also, when your kids become more than just what you’ve imagined, that’s when it gets this weird, tricky part. I see that with certain of my cousins that don’t have the best relationships with their parents, some who’ve left Ecuador and now live in the U.S., and others who maintain those norms.
MP: Once again, there are a lot of questions I could ask at this point, but I’d like to go back to Catholicism, which you mentioned has a lot of influence in Ecuador. And you were also just talking about a sort of image of a proper family. How do you think that Catholicism has influenced what that image is, and also the acceptance of LGBTQ folks in Ecuador?
NR: I think the image one in Catholicism is definitely there. We can talk about the queerness one, because it’s just not talked about. It’s still these very big institutional dogmas in Catholicism where it’s like, “it’s not right.” Those who maybe are sixty-plus, that generation will not even--if they weren’t already accepting, there’s not that much room for them. The people my parents’ age, in terms of LGBTQ, that’s where it depends on how religious we’re talking about. Right now, it’s kind of the same as the U.S. But when it comes to just in general, I recently have come out to my whole family on Facebook, and even my parents were shocked. It was the complete opposite of what they thought would happen, but I think it’s because I waited and I had the language and words to describe what I was doing. That was a big shock, for a lot of us. The whole thing of protecting the image and the family was so big that my parents brought that anxiety into me, of like, “this thing will break your dad’s relationship with his whole family.” It’s so interesting how the norm becomes its own fear. It’s its own monster because you go to church, or--my parents, we never went to church; we only went to church when I had communion and then confirmation, which was in eighth grade. Or when they fought. It goes back to this image of--even if you aren’t the most religious person, for some reason there’s this whole thing of like, “well, the closer we want to be to this image of who the good family is, we’re gonna be the closest to Catholic ideals.” I think, because my parents really, really wanted to showcase that, because of a bunch of stuff that was not that at home--knowing how radical and open my parents were, I now really am starting to process why they were like that. They were chasing this image that involved a lot of Catholic, homophobic understandings of life…that didn’t necessarily influence them at all, but for some reason with me--and now I’ve really understood--it was this mixture of, yes, some overall LGBTQ…internalized homophobic ideals, really clouded in masculinity, but that mixed in with this chasing of what an ideal family looked like, and my mom needing to comfort my dad’s machismo in that ideal. It led to them being like, “your queerness is an issue, because we won’t focus on it but when things are bad we’re gonna focus on it, because we need to as tight-knit of a family, as tight-kit of this Catholic, traditional Ecuadorian family, as you can be.” But I think, in general, you’re seeing a lot of families starting to just not give a shit about that anymore, quite frankly. And I think you’re seeing a lot more interesting things pop up. I don’t know if there’s a word for it; just more interesting, because I think things are becoming more real. You’re seeing a lot more truth coming out now in a lot of different families.
MP: Going off that, you said that your parents--when you came out to your whole family on Facebook, what they thought would happen was different from what did happen. Could you explain what exactly did happen? People, you seemed to imply, were more accepting than your parents had imagined they would be?
NR: Yeah. And also, again, this goes back to the--everything’s so intertwined, and it’s such a huge ( ). Being an immigrant, I know that job status is everything. And a lot of times, the classism will be its own barrier to validate your experience. It doesn’t matter, you can be a millionaire and have a homophobic Latin parent: they will love you and praise you to the ends and beyond if you are a hard worker and you made that money. They will at least learn how to stay in connection with you. However, if that happened, and let’s say you work at Little Caesar’s, they’ll continue to focus on how, “well, your life is not in order, so maybe this has to do with it.” Or, “these things have to do with it.” I think, me coming out when I did, I knew getting this job would help me come out in general. Because I’m like, “what are you gonna say? I’m the associate director of an LGBTQ youth center. I do drag for my job.” I was like, “woah, this is the time to do it.” We had a National Coming Out Day queer social thing that I started--there’ll be one in the end of this month--and it was so interesting, I think, because it was part of my job, it was to youth, it was to this community-ness. It appealed to all the things that Latin people love, and also goes to show that Latin people are very, very much resistant to change. That’s really it, this resistance to change, which, historically, when you have a mixed race of a bunch of colonized folks and indigenous folks and colonizers, all within the same area, and descendants of enslaved folks--all of that, there’s a lot of resistance to change because that land has changed so much. That’s its own evolution that needs to happen in Latin culture. You don’t realize how much, really, there is acceptance in these communities. It’s just the education and the exposure to experience, which is why, I think, we got what we got--because there’s a new experience; they all loved me; they got someone who understood how to explain what needed to be said about my identity, and why, and how it helped my mental health. I knew certain things that would help my Latin family be like, “well, if this was something that made this person feel so ‘life and death’, or made them feel so bad, and look, this person is now announcing who they are, but with a job that is telling them that they can do this…” To them, I think, it was the right exposure of, “oh, in this whole status update I’m affirmed by the outside world that his job is okay. Like, people want that there. People are paying people to do that.” And there was also this, “oh, this person is publicly putting their face in drag on Facebook, and non-family are commenting, being like, ‘yes, you look so amazing!’” I think who I am and my role right now, and the people I have supporting me in life, all allow there to be multiple experiences that Ecuadorian people were to say, “oh, this is actually okay.” It was helpful for me to realize--I knew that was gonna happen, but the fear of change that my parents instilled in me, thinking that wasn’t gonna happen--but no, a bunch of them just said, “we love you. This is great! This is nice.” Some of them started following my Instagram drag account, and I was like, “don’t do that. Unfollow me, please. We don’t need to do that.” But it was really cool; there was not any hate at all. Not one bit. So that was a really good, interesting thing to happen.
MP: To go off what you said about the focus on success--specifically economic success, having a good job--within families that have immigrated to the U.S. from Latin America, how do you think it would have been different for you if, say, hypothetically, you had come out to your family but you were not also the…what is your position?
NR: Assistant Director.
MP: Assistant Director. What if you were in a bad situation? What if you were struggling, and in that sort of situation you came out to them? How do you think they would have taken it then?
NR: There was a five-year conflict that answers to this, with my mom specifically. She really needed to see that, because she fought so much for her own success that she’s in this category of the hardworking immigrant that is like, “I need to see what I did, but even more beyond, because I gave you these opportunities.” A lot of adults are like that, and I think that goes to show that, sometimes, out of their own resistance to feeling what that comes from, or maybe not having time to figure that out, it’s usually projected onto us. Again, it’s this threshold mark. If you haven’t had it, there’s not gonna be as much active listening about your identity as you want. They may listen to you, but as soon as you hit too much about your problems as an individual, and they know that you have a shitty life situation, they’re shady, they’re gonna be like, “well, why aren’t you doing something about it?” They’re gonna be like, “well, we can’t even talk about you and your relationship.” Or, if you got misgendered at the street, they’re like, “well, you can’t pay rent.” The more that Latin folks are realizing it is okay to be who you are and still want to acknowledge and honor certain collectivist principles, there are certain things that do impede each other. I think that’s one of those, that, without essentially thinking of yourself through them for your job, it’s this failure. And therefore, anything that you feel is beyond that, they’re like…that reciprocity has been disconnected, if that makes sense. They’re expecting this; therefore, they can’t give you what you need as an individual, because they all feel like, as a family, they were not given what they were expected. That’s reality, which is why you’re seeing a lot of these norms shift and change. And they are hopefully becoming more case-by-case, and less generalizable about what Latin families look like in terms of lack of acceptance because of class being a huge issue, or success.
MP: Thank you. You mentioned collectivism as part of Ecuadorian and, more broadly, Latin American culture. In the context of, on one hand, to some extent, in some families, non-acceptance of queer folks, how do you think that it could be valuable to maybe bring those collectivist ideas into American culture?
NR: That’s a really good question. My parents are also really young, and I think it’s helpful that I got really young parents who had a lot of traditional ideas around collectivism, and spirituality. I got some things that felt like very older ways of doing things, and a lot of strict, rigid ways of, “this is what you need to do to do this.” My brother didn’t really get that, and so I see how an individualistic mindset has really helped him feel more confident in who he is, but now he lacks certain skills that make him really scared for the future. He knows more of who he is; he’s more assured of that. But now, he’s like, “I’m eighteen. I’m graduating high school. I haven’t had as much experiences about what to do for finances, or how to figure that out. Or a job, for bills.” He’s now entering that world where, for me, I definitely feel like I’m bringing that with my friends now, realizing not everyone got the experiences that I got that helped me get to where I am now, as in my job. I got a lot of life skills really fast, and I think that’s something that you get from collectivism, because someone is there, not to hold you, but if you fall, it’s not like you’re just in one straight line. Someone may just be behind you because they’re doing something else, so there’s a way for people to catch you. And I see that in the way that my parents, with two other families, were able to really help each other, as the adults of the family, and juggle different things at different times, because they knew that the reciprocity was so important for survival. It being so understood was how it worked so well, and putting a cog in all of that is queerness just being new. Not necessarily because it’s queer, but because it was introduced as something new that isn’t necessarily for everyone. It can be, but those ideals have already been there. The ideals that you see in a lot of queer chosen families are in a lot of collectivist norms. It’s just because it wasn’t made internally; it was made externally and brought in. That is really a “what are you doing?” type of scenario. I think that’s where it butts heads: introducing new things from the outside into internal collectivist practices of a family.
MP: So, when you say “from the outside”--ideas of queerness being brought in from the outside--are you thinking of Anglo-American culture, or…?
NR: Just life. I think American culture is so--I think a good way of saying this is that indigenous folks had queerness. A lot of it was just centered around two-spirit-ness. But that’s been lost. I think in Latin America there’s a lot of people who’ve had ancestors who had queerness internally honored, but that has been reshaped and morphed for so many intentions to look more around class, and stability. Before, there was a lot more spirituality involved, before colonization. But then again, I am a product of colonization, and so this is only speaking to indigenous folks. So, I say… “outside” is that there’s so much mixture within Latin America that the main ideal is what unifies them all together: that family-ness, that survival-ness. It’s why it’s such a vast amount of countries yet there are so many similarities within culture. Because we’re talking about such a family ideal, and how it has so many imp--like, ‘tip of the iceberg’-type situation. Queerness just may not be in there for so many families, because they had to grow that very intentionally to have certain things, and because Anglo-Americans so much back then, or even Mediterranean colonizers, brought these kind of principles from religion about--heteronormative principles and internalized homophobia. And I think that, being mixed in with collectivist principles that were already there, and other stuff--that was one of the main mixes. Religion was so important as a way to dominate folks or keep people in line. That is just one of the unfortunate consequences of all of the mixtures that happened in Latin America: the survival of Catholicism is there, and therefore the socialized homophobia that follows it.
MP: Okay. Focusing more on the U.S. now, how do you think that you, and other queer Latinx folks, especially those who have immigrated from Latin America, approach their identity and their self-expression differently in different spaces?
NR: I would say that representation really matters. Again, it’s so interesting how you having diverse experiences as a diverse person becomes privileges when you meet other diverse people who didn’t have that. As a queer Latin person living in North Carolina, being able to tell you that most of my chosen family comprises of queer Latin people, I was able to recreate these beautiful collectivist ideals, but with queerness involved. Not everyone gets that. And I didn’t have that for a long time. This is three or four years where I’ve had--and thinking in that mode, I can say that I’m able to operate in any way that I want to, because I’ve learned that, but my identities definitely were separate, because it was easy to come off as one single thing. Usually, ‘one-dimensional’ means that you were less seen.
Going to that, I think about my friends that I met in Nashville, specifically one friend. She’s a queer Latin woman of color, and I was really shocked when she said that me and my roommate were the first two other queer people of color she ever met, because she’s from Iowa. And I was like, “what the hell are you”--no, not Iowa, Idaho! Like, an hour outside of Boise. I was like, “okay, you’re near an urban area”--and she really lives in Oregon, but it’s rural Oregon, because it’s next to Idaho. But she’s like, “oh, my town--half of it is Mexican.” Because she’s Mexican. So, I’m like, “oh, my god.” Just hearing her story and seeing how she evolved within the two years that I was in Nashville, I saw what I was able to get in a more incremental way, throughout life. Just seeing how it was freeing for her to be around us. I remember her crying in moments. Like, she had a really toxic relationship with one of her best friends from Idaho who actually moved--this is such a messy story. They both moved so that the friend could go to the Vanderbilt program that I was in. Quickly realized that this person was subjected to a lot of norms that made her feel disempowered, because she doesn’t navigate or communicate in the same ways as the friend that she’s not friends with. Part of that realization was seeing me and my roommate at the time. I look back at her, and her experience, and my experience, and it’s so weird to see that be so innate in people. And seeing that kind of splitting of who I was, as an identity, really left when I hit 21, 22. They were that age when they came, so it was interesting how when you graduate college, if you didn’t get that same experience in college, is when you start really recognizing all of who you are. I think there’s less norms, because you’re still kind of in a bubble. I realized that this person’s identities were trying to become one, yet people or outside stuff, norms, were the cause of her feeling so disconnected from her Latin identity for such a long time, because the queerness was an accepting part that she found in high school and in college, which usually meant a White queer space that she had to either adapt to or get used to.
MP: Going off that, and looking a bit more at the intersection of queer identities and Latinx identities, what do you think about the term ‘Latinx’ itself? I know there’s been a lot of debate around it, at least in mainstream media in the U.S., and I’d like to hear what you think about that.
NR: Yeah. I’m so fortunate for my grad program because it’s allowed me to reflect. I’m like, “let’s just put some logic into the conversation.” I would love to get people in a room where it would magically solve everything, but… ‘Latine’, obviously, is another one, because it recognizes the language for what it is, and provides a solution internally. I think ‘Latinx’ provides a solution that’s not external, just hybrid. There are Latin people that made that here. Yes, it involved a lot of non-Latin people in academia, but that doesn’t mean that Latin people were not involved in that. I am all for all of them, but that’s something that I think is contextual. I think the reason why some people don’t like ‘Latinx’ is because that wasn’t their experience; and their experience of external words being put on them might make them feel very combative. I think it’s just really understanding why people get defensive, and learning ‘what do you give to those folks, in those moments, to release them from that?’ At the end of the day, we still all know what we’re talking about. ‘Latino’, ‘Latina’, ‘Latin’, ‘Latinx’, ‘Latine’; we all know what we’re talking about. Yet there is such a huge rift, and it’s just--because we already talk so much about validation, it’s just them making sure that this one thing that made them feel seen, and connected to so many people, and history, is being shifted or changed. Again, going back to the whole resistant of change deal. It’s not necessarily because they just hate it; the exposure has not given them the comfort that they feel they need all the time so that they feel safe. And then it goes to the words.
MP: Yeah. Also, what do you think, and what experiences have you had, regarding, more broadly, the way the Spanish language is gendered?
NR: It’s so interesting, because it’s my first language but I had to relearn Spanish to be an interpreter and be able to do professional translation and interpreting. It’s so instilled, as a language. It’s so hard for me to sit here and dissect. There should be a dedicated fifteen minutes to every forum, or workshop, or panel, dedicated around unpacking that. Getting people outside of the biases of like, “well, that’s just the language.” My brain’s like, “I don’t want to do more work; that’s just what it is.” However, it’s been really easy for me to add that “-e”, instead of the “-o/-a”, for certain non-specific pronouns, like “amigo”. And also, because it sounds cool, like “amigue”. You’ll hear Latin organizers use the “-e” in other gender-expansive ways. I definitely have used it a lot more when folks who have come in here are Spanish-speaking only. But again, that’s not all of the time, and I’m telling you specific times when I use certain things and when I don’t, and most of the times it’s just gendered.
It’s really, really hard when you’re talking about trans people, especially to my parents. I switch to Spanglish, because it’s a lot easier to bring in trans inclusion, or transness, without it feeling like someone is thinking they understand what you’re saying, but, because it’s gendered Spanish, we don’t know what they’re actually thinking. If you say “they” in English, you have a much better chance of them being like, “oh, we’re talking about a gender-fluid person or non-binary person. If you do that in Spanish, it just stops the whole conversation. If you’re like, “elle”, which is the gender-neutral word of--it may really jitter someone up. They may be like, “we’re not even just talking about gender anymore; now I’m just confused.” I think that if someone knows Spanglish, it’s easier to interpret queerness, which goes back to the ‘Latinx’ thing. I think Spanglish is really what is driving a lot of these pushes for new gender expansion. Not to say that Latin America’s not doing that on its own, but I think the gendering is interesting.
I would like to hear someone from Latin America talk about it, but even then, what I hear most about from trans folks is they poke fun at it. You hear a lot of them using it for comedic jokes, or to throw shade back at someone. The same things we hear about queer communities here. You kind of find a different way, whether that’s not actually changing the language…maybe you poke fun at it through using it. I think that’s what you see too.
MP: Yeah, that’s really interesting. You mentioning how you’ll use the term ‘Latine’, or adding “-e” or “-ue” onto words, especially if there are only-Spanish-speaking people who come to visit the Center--could you talk a bit more about what the LGBTQ Center of Durham, and specifically the LGBTQ Youth Center, does to support the community?
NR: Yeah, that’s a really good question. Unfortunately, when there is not someone who is bilingual / has done interpreting in nonprofit settings, there’s a lot of educa--professional experience that really provides an advantage to implement that here. I think, before me, the Center did a really good job of trying to translate captions for posts that weren’t long; because of the algorithms and that BS, certain lengths of posts would not capture as much people on the feed. But there would also be copies of Spanish translations for the World Fair, HIV testing…the services that we do either routinely or once a month were always translated. If you don’t have an interpreter on staff, whether that’s its own thing or someone that has the capacity to interpret for the staff, like me, then you have to look at it as a money--it’s a budget. Language justice then becomes a budget line. I think because here, they never had that many clients, but now there’s specifically one Spanish-speaking client, from Colombia, who needs interpreting, so we’re able to offer that. It’s cool to know that--no one was denied offerings here because of it--but that now there’s more access that can be had. I would say that there’s just more access.
And I do have connections to Latin folks in different orgs, but I say that all to say that I think a good community will have a succession plan. So, leaving “what does language justice for this org look like?” Right now, it’s actively being done, because we’re figuring it out. But eventually, I would want to write down the things that you can do, to have more of…language justice written down, and have people know “these are the steps to do”, “this is the people to contact”, “this is the org that does interpretation that also does queer events’ interpretation. Those types of things. But for now, it’s definitely me providing those services for Spanish-speaking people.
MP: Looking more broadly at language access, what do you think the state of language access is in Durham and in North Carolina?
NR: I think language access is really, really apparent in city government structures in Durham. Everything is at least bilingual. Actually, if I look closer, there’s other languages there being represented, but everything is very bilingual, even in the community health centers. I think Durham has a lot of really good reputations for language access for Spanish-speaking clients. Now, when we leave Spanish-speaking clients and talk about language access in general, North Carolina--now, I’m understanding my own privilege, because I speak both of those languages. When I went to San Francisco for a conference, I was like, “woah, language access requires so much money. And it can be a lot more.” Like, at that conference, they had Spanish translation, and they had American Sign Language translation, and Spanish Sign Language translation, on top of interpreters for smaller communities. It was interesting: even if there’s only one queer person that may come from one specific country in Durham, that person exists. And it is unfortunate that we’re not at the place where every center can be equipped as a polyglot, or a Rosetta Stone, to answer folks. I think, in that sense, Durham is a lot like other places that are not as big as San Francisco, where a lot of this money for combinations and services and accesses being put into--we’re not New York; we’re not LA, Atlanta, so you see community initiatives, and I think there’s a lot of that here with Spanish-speaking--I think you see that legally with Spanish-speaking, in general. You go to other places and it is a little bit more robust, or you go to other places and it’s way less. Rural areas are way more impacted by this. But there is also a push to support rural workers who are predominantly known to only speak a certain language as well. There’s a lot of work being done. Is that enough? Probably not.
MP: Thank you. Going back to Ecuador, I’d like to ask--and this may get into a lot of what you’ve already said, so don’t feel like you have to repeat anything--but how do you think that your life might have gone differently if you had kept living in Ecuador?
NR: Yeah, so I think the mask would have still been on [laughter] past a certain point. I don’t think I would have come out at eighteen. But then again, you might see the same thing you see here, where friends are a huge support for that queer acceptance. And that’s helpful for me to know; maybe I could have found a good friend group. I wouldn’t know on that end. If I had to grow up there, I probably would have been miserable. Knowing also that the banks were closing, who knows what my parents--that’s what they were in, so who knows what our financial situation would have been? My possibilities would have been severely limited. I would have had to stay in line, because there would have been not as much of diverse experiences. At least in the U.S., I had access to media, to TV, to school, to so many different groups of people, because I also went to diverse schools, that I was able to realize there’s way more ways of living. I think that was helpful, for me to know that I will have my own chance to do that. I don’t know if that was my saving grace, and I don’t know if that would have been apparent for me in Ecuador. I think it would have really been like, “I don’t know if this can be enough.”
MP: You mentioned media just now, having access to more media in the U.S., so that made me want to ask: what are your thoughts about representation in media, either in the U.S. or in Ecuador, of people who are queer, and Latine, and also neurodivergent?
NR: I think it’s really important. Especially the last one. I think neurodivergence is so taboo in so many different cultures, just to talk about it, and even feel empowered about something that’s deemed a disability. That being said, I feel like that’s its own forefront, and is really starting to come up, but still lagging. When it comes to queer Spanish Latine identities, I think it’s so important because it’s affirming in a way that you never think of. I would not have come out, being non-binary, if it wasn’t for the show “We’re Here.” Do you know that show? It’s on HBO.
MP: I honestly do not. Would you like to explain it?
NR: Yeah, it’s three drag queens from “RuPaul’s Drag Race”: Shangela--just so everyone knows the context--Shangela, Bob the Drag Queen, and Eureka did it. It’s like “Queer Eye”, but not. They would go to different rural towns throughout America that are super conservative, and would help queer folks there throw on a drag show and get in drag for the first time. It’s been such a diverse show. Season Two or Three, the one that recently came out, there was one specific episode about a queer, non-binary person coming out to their parents. I never would have thought--again, fear of change; I’m still an immigrant, so it goes down to me--as quickly as it was, seeing this two-minute scene, this whole idea of, “oh, I can’t come out” completely went out the door.
MP: Oh, wow.
NR: Because I was like, “oh, this is so easy. This person doesn’t know how to speak Spanish that well; their parents don’t know how to speak English that well; I don’t have that barrier.” And they’re way more feminine-presenting than I’ve ever been, but still saying, “I’m non-binary; this is who I am; this is part of transness” was really, really powerful. I actually started crying. I was crying just because I didn’t realize how I never saw me on camera, and seeing all those identities at the same time was mind-blowing. That everything is possible. And them having some more exposure be on that person; having to talk to them; because they were also nineteen, so they were getting combative. So, I was able to see, “okay, Niccolo: I can see how your defensiveness of--yes, it’s okay to be defensive, but is that gonna help the situation? No.” I think all of those things were important to understand. There was a dynamic of it being human, and family, and having an external support system saying, “hey, we hear you. This is really hard on them too.” And having someone getting to ask them questions about their queerness, and the parents having to hear someone else being like, “I am listening to you.” I think that was all so important for me to come out. I think I came out like a week later--
MP: Oh, wow.
NR: To my parents.
MP: You talking about that show made me think back to how you said that you yourself do drag. First of all, was that show influential also in you starting that? And what has the experience been like for you, doing drag?
NR: Yeah, I’m glad…we should talk about drag. Drag, I think, is another reason why I blended both my Latin identity and queer identity. And neurodivergence. I have ADHD, and I have symptoms of borderline personality disorder. However, that shit is expensive to get properly diagnosed, and so I only have a diagnosis for ADHD. However, being also spiritual and Ecuadorian, I think that there is a such a divine opportunity to see through being categorized as someone who has personality challenges. Also, understanding that I am non-binary, and realizing that there’s so many ways of looking at it. I think drag really unlocked that for me, because I was able to create and transform myself into this completely feminine person that is me but feels completely empowered and, in all senses, the way--the air is very thin; it just feels light; it feels breathable. When I’m in that suit of a person, I am me but I feel so powerful.
I think that I knew what drag was my senior year of high school. I would have known earlier, but, again, ESL. My first year of theater, they kept talking about “Drag Race”, and I thought that they were talking about NASCAR. I’m just like, “well, I’m not gonna entertain this conversation”, because I’m like, “how the hell are these three people, who I know are gay as hell, talking about that?” Then, one day, I kept hearing them talking about this person named Shangela, and I was like, “that does not sound like a NASCAR driver.” So, I looked it up, and I was like, “oh, this is drag queens.” Watching “Drag Race” was really helpful because there was so many different types of people. And then “We’re Here” only started probably three years ago, and that was even more wholesome, because I was able to see that anything is possible. It wasn’t just ten contestants going to a show, it was “we’re going to rural areas that are actually scary, and we’re gonna support either people there that are trying to create safe spaces for queer people or are queer themselves.” I think that was really empowering, and good to feel. And I think that being when I was really starting my drag was helpful to know that “you’ve got this. And everything else comes next.” And knowing these people were so empowered by being in drag for the first time is a reminder of how much that can do for a person.
MP: I think that’s all the questions I’d like to ask. Is there anything else that you would like to share?
NR: No. Oh, well, I guess my drag name is Kali Fuchis. If you don’t know Kali Uchis--
MP: I do know Kali Uchis. [laughs]
NR: Yeah, and then ‘Fuchis’: do you know what that means?
MP: I don’t; could you explain that?
NR: Yeah, it’s Spanish slang for ‘stinky’. So, it’s camp. Just like most drag names are camp. It’s a play on Kali Uchis. So that is really fun. I’m glad to end on that note. I think my name is really, really fun, because when there are queer Latin people in the audience at a drag show, everyone is really silent because they’re truly trying to figure out what the hell my name is. They know Kali, and they’re trying to figure out--they know most drag queen names are punny, so they’re like, “what the hell is that?” But then you hear these moments of laughter, deep laughter; they’re like “that’s so stupid!” And it’s like “yes”, because that slang is so specific to you as a baby. It’s used when a kid is outside for a really long time, or doesn’t want to take his shower. It’s specifically for a little kid. So, you don’t hear that again; no one’s gonna be like, “oh, that trash stinks--”--they’re not gonna say that trash is fuchis. You would laugh because you’re like, “that’s for a child”; it’s supposed to be for a baby only, or a young toddler. So, hearing it out loud, you’re like, “what?” It’s so affirming for me to know that other queer Latin people are here, and in the audience. And that, I think, usually helps boost my energy when I’m about to perform.
MP: That does make me think of one more question. What do you think about the importance of not only focusing on the struggles that queer, Latine, neurodivergent, et cetera people face, but also the joy in their lives?
NR: I definitely think that’s really important. I would say the top things right now in a lot of queer Latine people are: listening to really good music, trying to clear your debt [laughs], and going out and dancing. I think, a lot of times, there’s such a big push to just dance and to have fun, and to talk, and to be in community. And I think all of those things are so important for people to realize. People are obsessed with Bad Bunny, they’re obsessed with Kali Uchis; we’re seeing it worldwide. Just knowing that we do all the things that everyone else does, but also knowing that, like, potlucks is a great big thing that is a Latin thing. Like, one of my new drag daughters has been obsessed with getting people over to do a potluck, and they did it, but they want to keep doing one. It’s a big thing, once you get into that rhythm of having community, to either expect someone else--, or expect at some point for there to be a gathering. And I think that’s always really nice, to know that we’re getting that back even though we’re not with our families anymore; that we’re doing that within the queer Latin gatherings, and that there’s just so much laughter happening.
MP: Thank you. I think for real this time, that is my last question.
NR: Mhm! Thank you so much.
MP: Yeah, thank you so much for talking with me!
NR: Yeah, of course!
END OF INTERVIEW
[01:06:08]
Transcriber: Myri Prause
9 April 2023
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-1016 -- Roditti, Niccolo Abel.
Description
An account of the resource
Niccolo Roditti, who was born in 1996 in Guayaquil, Ecuador and moved to the U.S. at age three, is the Assistant Director of the LGBTQ Youth Center of Durham, part of the LGBTQ Center of Durham. Niccolo discusses conflicts and other intersections of queerness and traditional Ecuadorian culture. In addition to describing the experiences of queer people in Ecuador versus in various parts of the U.S., they explore their own simultaneous navigation of their queer and Latine identities, especially in the context of their family. They came out to their parents and later their extended family despite facing homophobia/heteronormativity and machismo, as well as the pressure to maintain the image of a “Catholic, traditional Ecuadorian family”. Connected to that, Niccolo talks about collectivism in Ecuadorian culture, and in queer spaces. They also discuss how socioeconomic status relates to queer Latine experiences. Additionally, Niccolo examines the presence and representation of queer and Latine people in a number of spaces and contexts, including educational institutions, media, the traditionally gendered Spanish language, and drag, in which they perform.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-04-03
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29361">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
R1016_Audio.mp3
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/f885adfe3707c930ffcdc83129c73612.mp3
33409c2b16ab0de166459e8cfb034f72
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/38e1dacb2d7c12b3fab2517e8b43b0c9.pdf
473283bdd66a8a65480bf8369871a41f
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-1012
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
Fecha
2023-04-18
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Molina, Ana Muñoz.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Students
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
2002
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Camagüey -- Camagüey -- Cuba
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Chapel Hill -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-77.9055 21.39248),2022,1;POINT(-79.047753 35.905035),2023,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Ciano, Anthony.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Ana Muñoz Molina is a student at UNC Chapel Hill from Cuba who shares her experience emigrating to the United States and her role within the Latino community in Chapel Hill and Miami, where she lives with her family. Ana discusses her family’s struggles to make ends meet in Cuba and discusses the challenges she faces to feel integrated within the university’s Hispanic community, made up mostly of first-generation Americans whose experiences differ from the conditions in which she was brought up both in Miami and under the Cuban authoritarian regime. While Ana is one of over a million people of Cuban heritage living in the Miami area and her experiences may be commonplace in south Florida, Ana shares the challenges of connecting to her culture in a university environment. She also provides advice for those in similar situations: coming to the United States, being surrounded by one’s own culture, and leaving that for a journey of independence and academic growth.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Ana Muñoz Molina by Anthony Ciano, 18 April 2023, R-1012, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29352
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Culture; Identity; Migratory Experience; University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Estudiantes
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Ana es una estudiante cubana en UNC Chapel Hill que comparte su experiencia al emigrar a los Estados Unidos y su papel dentro de la comunidad latina tanto en Chapel Hill como en Miami, donde vive con su familia. Ana discute las luchas de su familia para ganar lo suficiente y mantenerse solvente en Cuba, y habla sobre los desafíos que enfrenta para sentirse integrada dentro de la comunidad hispana de la universidad, compuesta en su mayoría por estadounidenses de primera generación cuyas experiencias difieren de las condiciones en las que se crio tanto en Miami como bajo el régimen autoritario cubano. Mientras que Ana es una de las más de un millón de personas que viven en el área de Miami de herencia cubana y por ende sus experiencias pueden ser comunes en el sur de Florida, ella comparte los desafíos de conectarse con su cultura en este ambiente universitario. También brinda consejos para aquellos en situaciones similares: viniendo a los Estados Unidos, rodeándose de su propia cultura y dejándola para un emprender un trayecto de independencia y crecimiento académico.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Ana Muñoz Molina por Anthony Ciano, 18 April 2023, R-1012, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Cultura; Experiencia migratoria; Identidad; Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hil
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
[00:00:00] START OF RECORDING
[00:00:03] Anthony Ciano: Hello, my name is Anthony Ciano and today I am here with Ana Munoz Molina in Dey Hall on UNC Chapel Hill's campus. Today is April 18, 2023. And the time is 3:48 PM. So, to start, Ana, would you be able to share a little bit about yourself and how you came to North Carolina?
[00:00:23] Ana Muñoz Molina: Yes. So, I was born and raised in Cuba until I was eight years old. I come from a family who was very into the medical industry. My Grandpa was a doctor, mom is a nurse, Dad was a pharmacist. And around that age, me and my family decided that we were going to emigrate to the United States. And we actually migrated to Florida, Miami, Florida, where I did my elementary years, my middle school, high school. And at the time that it was time for college, I did community college in Miami for two years, and I decided to transfer to UNC in Chapel Hill.
[00:01:15] AC: And you're a junior this year?
[00:01:16] AMM: Yes. A junior majoring in biology, hopefully going into the pre-dental track.
[00:01:23] AC: Very cool. Um, so you said you were from Cuba, and you moved to the US when you were eight. So where- like where in Cuba are you from?
[00:01:29] AMM: So, I was born in Camagüey, Cuba. There, we lived with my grandparents, in a house around like four or five bedrooms in a very tight-knit community, and neighborhood, everyone knew each other. My family was extremely close. My cousins lived around, just a block away. So, we were very close. I've lived with my grandparents my whole life as far as my parents, my sister. But yeah, in Camagüey, Cuba.
[00:02:08] AC: Very cool. So, you moved when you were eight. You said that you studied here, you went to community college in Miami, and then now you came to UNC. So, I guess what I was wondering is what were some of the reasons why your family emigrated to the United States and how did the Cuban laws or policies impact your family's decision to come to the US?
[0002:34] AMM: Overall, I would say it was because of better opportunities. How I had mentioned before, my family was very into the medical fields and they did their years studying for this specific job or profession for them later to not be able to help anyone out due to a lack of materials or hospitals or clinics. Although they studied, they would not be provided economically to maintain the family. So, for example, my mother, although she was a nurse, who worked seven days a week, alongside my father, who was a pharmacist, they still had to go out in the streets of Cuba have of Camagüey and sell treats that they would make just to provide for our family when that shouldn't be, that's not ideal. So, it was essentially, I would say that they wanted to provide me and my sister with better opportunities, that is, professionally and future to have to be able to provide for their family better. And regarding the policies. I would say that after the dictatorship of Fidel Castro, everything went downhill, there was no food to be found. Professionals were not being paid enough to provide for their families. And so that's when my family decided that it was reason enough to emigrate to the United States.
[00:04:15] AC: Okay, that makes sense. So, I know that, like Fidel came into power in like the middle, like middle of the 20th century, and a lot of people left, like in those coming years after that. So, you've said that your family moved here when you were eight and you're 21 now?
[00:04:36] AMM: 20.
[00:04:36] AC: You're 20, so I guess why did your family like only decide to leave like 12 years ago? Why didn't your family come sooner? Like I know, like a lot of other Cuban people did.
[00:04:48] AMM: Yes, So there's various reasons. For example, when Fidel Castro first became president, I remember my grandma telling me the stories that she was extremely happy. That all his speeches seemed like they all made sense and that they were going to help the people of Cuba. Her and her family went on the streets to celebrate alongside all Cuban families. And so, it really took a turn when it wasn't going as planned. And when there was shortages of food, of material, of utilities, and that's when they really started thinking about what is happening, and what will happen in the future if it's gonna get better or worse. So, from there, I specifically remember my family getting together and at the time, I was only eight. So, I was extremely confused as to what was actually happening. And so, I remember them getting together and just discussing what they should do, if they change their whole life around, if they should migrate to a whole new country where the language is not known, where they barely know anyone, to provide a better future for our family. And so I do feel like the timing was the correct one, as things did get worse in Cuba, as well as it was good timing since my aunt at the time who lived in the United States, and a US citizen, managed to sort of sponsor us, where we would enter the United States with residency, almost, I would say, like six months into living here. So, we were provided with various help, financially, when we got to the United States. As well as my parents were given certain jobs, English classes. So, I do feel like my family picked the right time, knowing where things were sort of going to go futuristic in Cuba in the island, as well as, when was the right time for us to get here, knowing that we were gonna be helped by the government, the US government.
[00:07:13] AC: Were your parents able to like work in the same sort of jobs that they did, like in Cuba?
[00:07:19] AMM: So, definitely not when they got here. It's very, very difficult, especially the language barrier, kept them from doing this right away. But for example, my mother started as a medical assistant, she worked her way up, and studied for the nursing boards. And eventually, in two to three years, I want to say, did manage to get her nursing license, in the United States. So currently, she is working as a nurse and is very happy with her job. However, my father, on the other hand, who was a pharmacist in Cuba, did not think that it was the right time, or the right choice to do all that studying, and decided that he was going to work various jobs. Right now, he does still work in the medical field. But he's more towards insurance and clinics, and that sort of industry instead of pharmaceutical.
[00:08:21] AC: So, I know that you talked about like, the economic challenges that your family faced while living in Cuba. Do you think that like the embargo, or like “el bloqueo” has impacted? I guess, like, has that do you think had an impact on like, the Cuban economy?
[00:08:39] AMM: So, um, when I was in Cuba, just to share a small story, I was very confused. I lived a good- I had a good childhood. Just because my parents, my family overall, made a really- hid it really well that the island wasn't doing well, economically. So, I would always have food on a plate. I would always have toys to play with. But little did I know that my family, my parents specifically, would stop eating so I could. Or that my family, my parents had to work an extra shift for that one toy. So as an eight-year-old, I was really confused when we made the move. And about the embargo, I would now, knowing more about the situation in Cuba and being more active about being an immigrant and seeing and facing what's currently happening with Cubans right now, I would say it's hard. Because yes, I understand the embargo but at the same time those people in Cuba, it's hard to really, how do I say this, like it's hard to see what they live day by day because there's nothing. So sometimes the only thing that they could get, the only sort of food that they could obtain, is from family that they have over at the United States. So, let's say that that is cut off, I will not know how it would feel to go hungry at night for children to not have food, and so on.
[00:0:19] AC: So, well, thank you for sharing that. Besides like, the lack of economic opportunities that your family experienced while living in Cuba, do you think like, how did the government's oppression, or how did the government of Cuba specifically impact your family? Do you ever experience any- I guess like, does your family have any experience- negative or positive experiences with the government?
[00:10:52] AMM: I don't recall any negative experiences. We never had some sort of business that they took away, or, or any, thankfully, none of us had any tragedy within the family that occurred. But I do feel like as a child, even when I didn't know much, I did experience some trauma. For example, a short story that I want to share is that in Cuba, as a kid, we were always told that you can't say the word "libtertad" out loud, which is freedom in Spanish. Since Cuba does not have rights, you couldn't just be in the streets asking for freedom. You would get- you would have this trauma that you would get taken away from your family arrested, shot at. So, I specifically remember arriving from Cuba in the Miami Airport. And the first thing I asked my mother was, Mom, could I say the word "libertad" here? And my mom just started crying. I was extremely confused as an eight-yearold. I was like, okay. But I do feel like it always gives us some trauma. Yes, the government did give me some trauma, for sure.
[00:12:13] AC: Have you had the opportunity to go back to visit Cuba? Or like do you want to?
[0012:20] AMM: Yes, so I do have basically all my mom's side still in Cuba. Two little cousins, actually. So, I did get the opportunity to visit once. However, it is extremely expensive for us born in Cuba to go and visit it. I would have to get a Cuban passport which is over $500 plus a ticket, which could easily cost you from $400, $300. So, all the expenses just for one trip to Cuba, plus all the money that you have to give your family to help them out, and friends. So, I've only been able to go back once. And I really felt how different it was, I felt sorry, for my family there. I saw how my little cousins would cry, because all they wanted to do is eat a plate of spaghetti when there wasn't any. So yes, I went back, but it was also very emotional. I saw friends that I had gone to school with. And I would explain to them what a mall was, for example, and they were just extremely confused by it because they had- they can't even picture something like that. So yeah, I did have the chance to go back. I would like to go back. However, I would like it even more for my family to come here instead.
[00:13:47] AC: How do you feel when Americans talk about Cuba? Like, I guess, you know, people in the United States have their own opinions about Cuba. Practically everyone here does have an opinion on it. But when you hear people talk about Cuba, saying it's the United States fault, for all the problems that are there, how does that make you feel? Or like what do you think when people like just like blame the United States for the problems?
[00:14:17] AMM: I highly disagree with them. I feel like Cuba's problems is Cuba's president and corrupt governments. The United States has actually, I would say, saved my life, as many other Cubans. It's the States was a place that you know us Cubans who were escaping oppression could come and live our- as you could say, American dreams. And I feel like blaming the United States for what is happening or what's happening is a mistake in my opinion. And if anything, sometimes they did even like help Cubans out, but that's just my opinion. I also feel like people who might be saying things about Cuba who haven't experienced living there or gone there aside the, the whole traveling just to see Havana which is the Capitol, should not be stating their opinion because they don't know what a life to life is for looking for food when there isn't any or providing for a family that they don't have over there.
[00:15:35] AC: Yeah, okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Do you feel like, I guess when you came, like, in North Carolina, when you tell people that you're Cuban, what do they think? Like? I mean, like, obviously, Miami, there are a lot of Cuban people. But in Chapel Hill, maybe not so much. So, you introduce yourself, you say, "Hi, I'm Ana. I'm from Cuba." What do people say?
[00:16:00] AMM: Yes, it's very, it's very cool. I would say like, it's nice to feel like they want to know more about you, like why you moved. They want to know your story, which I feel heard. Like, I really enjoy when I present myself as Cuban that I was born in Cuba and raised in Cuba, and they want to know more. I think it's very exciting. I really enjoy it. I really do. I you know, tell them I share a little bit about myself. Sometimes they're--. They don't know much about the government and what's happening. So, I like to share a little bit with them about the current situation. I feel like knowledge is always a good thing. And yeah, I really enjoy it. I enjoy when people ask me, oh, why did you migrate? Oh, that's very nice how's Cuba, like and even like to share a bit of knowledge with them.
[00:16:54] AC: Do you feel like your experiences- I actually, before I ask you this question? What like, what label? Do you like to use for yourself? When you're referred to? Like you being someone of Latin American descent? Like, do you say, do you tell people that you're Hispanic? Do you say that you're like Latina? Do you just say you're Cuban? Like, what?
[00:17:16] AMM: I typically go with Cuban just to be more specific. If not I, yeah, I use either Latina or Hispanic. I haven't I've never been really much into, "oh what am I." Or if you know, someone refers me to something that I might not be I'm not the type to really get offended, if not, maybe correct them, and share a little bit about myself with them so they understand better. But I mostly would say Cuban. For sure. Just because I like to get specific.
[00:17:50] AC: Yeah, that makes sense. So, I guess like, like speaking more broadly, do you feel like your experiences as an immigrant mirror the experiences of other Latinos in North Carolina?
[00:18:06] AMM: I feel like every immigrant or Latino is different just because everyone sort of has their own stories, their own immigrant story, their own personal struggles. Many people, for example, might have come from their home country, on a plane, or on a ship, or anything along those sorts. So, everyone has or even maybe have different reasons. But I do feel like we're sort of like a community and somehow share the same experiences, like we could understand each other more, just because we relate to other people's stories. You know, at the end of the day, I feel like most of us emigrate for a better future or to escape dictatorship. And that passion for a country or our different cultures sort of like come together and we sort of know what we're feeling emotionally and physically about what's going on back home. So yes, I do feel like we're all different, and we have different experiences. But I do at the end of the day feel like my story is very relatable to other immigrants here, or Latinos in North Carolina.
[00:19:27] AC: So, like, obviously, Miami, a lot of the people that live there are Cuban or Venezuelan or Nicaraguan, and I guess they have similar situations back in their home countries, while a lot of the immigrants who come to North Carolina are from Central America, and maybe they come due to, I guess, more economic reasons rather than political. Do you feel like you've noted that difference like, do you feel like it's harder to connect with, with Latinos here versus in Miami, when they've really like, you know, a lot of them have even come from the same country that you have? What do you think about that?
[00:20:13] AMM: I do, I really do. For example, Miami, there's a really, really big percentage of Cubans, where you just spot them in the street. And you know, they're Cuba. You might even actually know them. So, it's very funny. You in Miami, you're just another Cuban or another, Nicaraguan, or Venezuelan. It is very different, Miami, immigrants, I guess, to North Carolina. And I do feel some sort of, you know, besides our differences, some sort of, how could I say this, connection as well. Just because most immigrants, I'd like to say from Miami, have recently moved from Miami, whereas immigrants, I guess, from North Carolina, are- their parents are immigrants not really themselves. So yes, they like to share their culture proudly, and so on. But they lived it through their parents and their parents' struggles. Whereas I feel like Miami, since it's currently happening right here right now, it's very sudden, and everyone knows that it's more impacting since you just moved from another country. That also could be however, because Chapel Hill, I feel like it's very university town, location. So, you're gonna see students from a lot of places, from different backgrounds, whose parents might have migrated instead of them. Whereas Miami is a really, really big city with a lot, a lot of Latin Americans, Latins. So, I do feel it's impacted by location, as well as heritage. Yeah.
[00:22:27] AC: Would you say that the transition from living in Cuba to Miami was challenging, or very different?
[00:22:35] AMM: Yes, definitely. So, I was- so I was eight, right in Cuba, and sort of to get, like, life, I guess, figure it out, my father left first to the United States. Six months prior to when me my mom and my sister moved. And I was extremely confused. One day, my dad was gone and I was like, really confused by the situation. My family always tried to protect, like, protect me from the scenario. So, I wasn't told much. I was told that I was gonna see him very soon, that he's helping us out. But again, really, really confused. I was just going to school one day, came back and he wasn't there. I did, however, of course get to say goodbye. But it was just a really confusing situation for an eight-year-old. When we got here, that my dad was all settled, we moved in with my aunt and uncle who thankfully accepted us into their home with open arms. I started school, and I started school in the late like late third grade, I like to say, where everyone was taken already. The FCAT I think I believe there was called, I was an ESOL. I was the smallest tiniest little girl on ESOL. And I didn't know anything. All I knew is that whenever a teacher would ask me a question, or there was some sort of quiz or exam, I would cry. The only thing I would do was cry, just because of how frustrated I was to not know the language, the culture, what was happening around me. It was a very difficult time I would come home with panic attacks, explaining to my mom that I did not want to do it anymore. I wanted to go back. That where was I? I really did not like it at first. It was a really hard transition for a kid. And thankfully, that opinion has changed now. I would- I love it here. I loved Miami and the States. But yeah, at the beginning, it was definitely rough. And I feel like it's a story that many people we'll share at first having not knowing the culture or anyone or the language. But you get used to it, you get used to it one day at a time. I remember, I learned English one day to from one day to another, I don't even remember how. I remember though, how my mom would do little flashcards with pictures and names of cat for example, or dog. And little by little I learned, got used to it. School was better. Make some friends, which always helps and, yeah.
[00:25:37] AC: Very cool. So, I'd like to know a little bit, a little bit more about how you moved here. So, you said that you came on a plane and that your aunt and uncle sponsored you? Do you know how that process works? I guess like how did you like how were you able to come here? Because I know a lot of other immigrants, unfortunately, don't have that same experience.
[00:25:59] AMM: Yes. So, the reason why my uncle and aunt were here in the first place and could sponsor me was because back then in Cuba, they had like some I would say, raffle where citizens of Cuba would get randomly selected for residency in the United States. And thankfully, they both were really nice. So, they took their chance. I'm not sure what year this was. It might have even been before Fidel Castro came to govern. So, they left and they had made a life here, have been here for over 30, 40 years, I would like to say now. And when things got bad, since they were US citizens, they managed to sort of sponsor me on my family. And that process, I believe, is still going on today, but it's paused. Back then, when they sponsored us, it was a faster process, and was working more like continuous. And I believe it only took a couple of months, right after they put in like the request. And my father came six months after me, my family. I said, my mom and my sister came. And when we became US citizens, we sponsored our grandparents and our grandparents' parents sponsored other family that we have from our dad's side. And that's sort of how my family grew here in the United States. Basically, sponsor after sponsor, and I believe that once we arrived here, we did have some help from the government. So that was really beneficial for me and my family. Yeah.
[00:27:55] AC: So, it seems that you have a pretty big family. Now, like in the US, do you feel like- how would you compare Miami to Chapel Hill? Do you feel like it's hard to connect with, like your, like "Cubanidad" or "Latinidad" like living in Chapel Hill?
[00:28:16] AMM: Yes, um, I really, really had been having a hard time. Thankfully, though, I did transfer here with Miami students who were also from Cuba, Nicaragua. And I already knew some Cubans here, because we all went to the same community college in Miami. So that was really extremely helpful at the beginning, for sure. However, I don't feel like I have found like the right group of people at Chapel Hill. I do believe like, like, our community has a certain like sense of humor that maybe others here might not get along with or our personality. And so that's been extremely hard just to find my sort of people. But it is helpful that I do have some Cubans here from Miami, who have always like, kept the door open for whatever I needed, or help. And yeah,
[00:29:22] AC: Have you been able to, like meet people or connect with other people who aren't of like Cuban origin? Or do you feel like you're mostly like around other people from Miami?
[00:29:34] AMM: So, I did try, I think it was my first semester, very first or second week that this certain organization did like a meeting and it was mostly Hispanics so I was like, "Oh this is very, very nice. I'm gonna go and I'm gonna meet people. However. I was the only Cuban. And most people if not all, spoke Spanish- spoke sorry, English. I didn't feel very, I'm not gonna say welcomed, but very, I don't know, not really accepted just because most of them already had their community from their certain country, I believe it was Mexico. So, after that, I was like, "okay, I gave it a try." But I sort of always kept going back to the Cuban people that I knew here. Which I feel like I do connect more with.
[00:30:42] AC: Um, what advice? Like, I mean, I guess, like, I this can be a two-part question. So what advice would you give? Like, first off, what advice would you give somebody from Cuba coming to the United States?
[00:30:59] AMM: Okay, um, it depends. Where would they be arriving? What states like-
[00:31:05] AC: Let's say they go to Miami.
[00:31:06] AMM: Okay! I feel like Miami is a very safe place to arrive at, just because you basically speak more Spanish than English on your day-to-day. And you will know many people, it's very unlikely that you won't just because so many people have migrated. So, I do feel like you're gonna get adjusted well, you're gonna feel welcome into a community, you're gonna have people loving you every step of the way and helping you out. So, I do feel like Miami is the right place. Or at least one of them, where a Cuban could come with not knowing any language, not being as, I guess, well educated, and so on to really feel like they could make something of themselves and a future that is with the right people surrounding them.
[00:32:05] AC: Now, what advice would you give someone coming from like, Miami? Like, look, so you, you really grew up in Miami after you moved to Cuba or after you moved from Cuba. And now you're going to this new state with a new sort of demography, new people. If you were to- if someone were to ask you, what advice would you give to that person?
[00:32:30] AMM: I would admire them. I feel like one of the reasons why I decided to make the move was because I wanted a change. I was so used to my day-to-day Miami. I felt like I wasn't unique enough, just because everyone around me was Cuban, and was pursuing the same dream. I wanted to change sort of myself, like put myself not in like such a comfort zone, I wanted to get out of that comfort zone that Miami was for me. And that's essentially why I made that big change of moving from Miami to North Carolina to study. The environment was very different. I like the weather. And I was like, I think if I don't do it, now, I'm not gonna do it. And the advice that I would give that person besides telling them that they're brave, because it is a very hard decision. I feel like Hispanics are very tight with their families. And so that big move from your family is extremely emotionally draining at first. But besides telling them that they're brave, basically telling them as well that to get out there to meet people in class, talk to them. Go to club meetings, even if they're not your thing at first. If you keep trying and keep trying, I'm sure you will find the right one with the right community of people where you will feel welcome, accepted, where you could express your Cuban-ness and Hispanic descent and even share with people more about your country and why you moved. So, I think that would be my main advice.
[00:34:15] AC: Do you feel like you've grown from the transition from Miami to North Carolina?
[00:34:21] AMM: Yes, definitely. Since I've said before my family, my Cuban family, is very tightly sort of together. We do everything together. If there's a party happening, we're all going. If- we celebrate all holidays together, we eat dinner together all at one table every day at a certain time. So, I've definitely feel like I've become more independent for sure. I- since in Miami I live with both my grandma's and our mom, for example that love to cook. When my mom is stressed, the only thing that will relax her is cooking. So I- before coming here, I didn't know how to fry an egg, literally. So definitely a lot of things have changed. I feel like I've become more independent as a student, as well as a woman growing up in my 20s. So, I do feel like that's another reason why I made the move, I wanted to grow. And I felt like if I stayed at my house in Miami, with my very close family- that I feel like if I would have stayed in Miami that I would not have had the chance to experience American culture in a specific way as the one that I do in UNC. So, I do feel like this change, this move between states, especially as a student like me, was not only practical, but necessary.
[00:36:01] AC: Do you ever want to go back to Miami, like after you graduate? Do you see yourself there and like around your culture in the future?
[00:36:09] AMM: So, since I've mentioned that, I am planning to go into dental school, I don't mind where. I'm very open to moving around for dental school. However, I do feel like I've talked with friends and family about this, that Miami is home, and where I am just more comfortable with. So, I do feel like in the long run, where I want to create a family and experience life with in would be Miami at the end of the day. Yeah.
[00:36:49] AC: If you were to have stayed- So obviously, like Miami and Cuba are different in many different ways. But you know, do you feel like, if you were to have stayed in Cuba, how would your life be different now?
[00:37:05] AMM: I feel like it would have been extremely different. Not only professionally, but me as a person, I feel like I would not have been able to pursue my passion of becoming a dentist just because I saw how my parents struggled, my grandpa, my whole family essentially struggled as medical professionals. So, I do feel like I would have had to let go of that dream of becoming a dental professional. And instead, I would have probably joined the tourist industry, which pays people more than being a medical professional, it sounds crazy, but it's very realistic. Also, I feel like I would have a very unstable and stressful life, just because you don't know when your next plate of food- where it's going to come from or if you're going to find it. And that's just more stress than a human being with rights or in a country that the government should take care of, if not providing you with the essentials for you to make a living. So I- in overall I feel like one, I would have to stop pursuing my dream professionally. And two, it would just be a very stressful life. I would not be living to enjoy it. On top of that, there's no traveling. The only traveling you could do is in Cuba. So, there will be no going to Europe, going to the States, going all around the world if you wanted to just to visit. one because there's no money, and the other because Cuba doesn't allow you to.
[00:38:49] AC: So, you talk about the struggles that you feel like you would face if you had stayed in Cuba. What is life like for your family now in Cuba, like what did they do to manage?
[00:39:00] AMM: Yes, currently, the family that I have most in Cuba is my Mom's side. And that includes mostly her brother, so my uncle, his wife, and my two little cousins that are, I would say around the age of like- one is six years old and the other one is like 11. And I see their struggles, and I see how horrific it is. So, my mom thankfully provides them with food when it's needed. Because they- although my uncle works-, he's a mechanic and his wife, I believe, does something in the tourist industry, they can't provide for themselves alone. They can't pay for their housing and they can't pay for their expenses from what they make. And so, my family, especially my mother, sends them food, monthly, as well as utilities, anything that they aren't able to find in Cuba, my mom sends them- sends it to them. However, it's way more expensive. It takes time to get there, it's not assured that they will get it. So, it's very unstable, an unstable sad life. My uncle is currently battling depression just because he sees that most of his friends and most of his family are gone. And they are waiting for the same thing that was done to me, my mom, my father, and my sister, so that sponsorship from us. However, since it's from brother to- from sister to brother, it does take longer. And since that program is currently on pause, it's been, I believe, like eight years and no response. So definitely a difficult time. However, it does make it a little easier that they have our help from the States. But it still doesn't make it okay, that they're struggling this much just to provide for their family and live on a day-to-day basis[00:41:16] AC: Well, we are almost out of time, but I just wanted to ask you what else- like what do you want people to know about Cuba? About you being from Cuba?
[00:41:26] AMM: Yes, I want the people to know, even within this interview that even though there's a lot of struggles with the economy, with the government, dictatorship, and the people suffering, that we are a very rich culture island and that our identity is known. That the people are just very good people that care about each other. I remember how back when I was over there living, if any neighbor needed something, they will stop what they're doing just to help that other person. So, we are a very likeable people. Love to just talk, be communicative and help out. And I feel like if it's something that you should take from this interview, is to learn a little bit more about Cuba and how you could help and just know that its culture really is something that no other island could have. And yeah.
[00:42:30] AC: Well, thank you very much, Ana, for sharing your story with me today. And good luck with the rest of the semester.
[00:42:36] AMM: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:42:39] END OF INTERVIEW
Transcribed by: Anthony Ciano
01/20/2023
Es: Transcripción
[00:00:00] START OF RECORDING
[00:00:03] Anthony Ciano: Hello, my name is Anthony Ciano and today I am here with Ana Munoz Molina in Dey Hall on UNC Chapel Hill's campus. Today is April 18, 2023. And the time is 3:48 PM. So, to start, Ana, would you be able to share a little bit about yourself and how you came to North Carolina?
[00:00:23] Ana Muñoz Molina: Yes. So, I was born and raised in Cuba until I was eight years old. I come from a family who was very into the medical industry. My Grandpa was a doctor, mom is a nurse, Dad was a pharmacist. And around that age, me and my family decided that we were going to emigrate to the United States. And we actually migrated to Florida, Miami, Florida, where I did my elementary years, my middle school, high school. And at the time that it was time for college, I did community college in Miami for two years, and I decided to transfer to UNC in Chapel Hill.
[00:01:15] AC: And you're a junior this year?
[00:01:16] AMM: Yes. A junior majoring in biology, hopefully going into the pre-dental track.
[00:01:23] AC: Very cool. Um, so you said you were from Cuba, and you moved to the US when you were eight. So where- like where in Cuba are you from?
[00:01:29] AMM: So, I was born in Camagüey, Cuba. There, we lived with my grandparents, in a house around like four or five bedrooms in a very tight-knit community, and neighborhood, everyone knew each other. My family was extremely close. My cousins lived around, just a block away. So, we were very close. I've lived with my grandparents my whole life as far as my parents, my sister. But yeah, in Camagüey, Cuba.
[00:02:08] AC: Very cool. So, you moved when you were eight. You said that you studied here, you went to community college in Miami, and then now you came to UNC. So, I guess what I was wondering is what were some of the reasons why your family emigrated to the United States and how did the Cuban laws or policies impact your family's decision to come to the US?
[0002:34] AMM: Overall, I would say it was because of better opportunities. How I had mentioned before, my family was very into the medical fields and they did their years studying for this specific job or profession for them later to not be able to help anyone out due to a lack of materials or hospitals or clinics. Although they studied, they would not be provided economically to maintain the family. So, for example, my mother, although she was a nurse, who worked seven days a week, alongside my father, who was a pharmacist, they still had to go out in the streets of Cuba have of Camagüey and sell treats that they would make just to provide for our family when that shouldn't be, that's not ideal. So, it was essentially, I would say that they wanted to provide me and my sister with better opportunities, that is, professionally and future to have to be able to provide for their family better. And regarding the policies. I would say that after the dictatorship of Fidel Castro, everything went downhill, there was no food to be found. Professionals were not being paid enough to provide for their families. And so that's when my family decided that it was reason enough to emigrate to the United States.
[00:04:15] AC: Okay, that makes sense. So, I know that, like Fidel came into power in like the middle, like middle of the 20th century, and a lot of people left, like in those coming years after that. So, you've said that your family moved here when you were eight and you're 21 now?
[00:04:36] AMM: 20.
[00:04:36] AC: You're 20, so I guess why did your family like only decide to leave like 12 years ago? Why didn't your family come sooner? Like I know, like a lot of other Cuban people did.
[00:04:48] AMM: Yes, So there's various reasons. For example, when Fidel Castro first became president, I remember my grandma telling me the stories that she was extremely happy. That all his speeches seemed like they all made sense and that they were going to help the people of Cuba. Her and her family went on the streets to celebrate alongside all Cuban families. And so, it really took a turn when it wasn't going as planned. And when there was shortages of food, of material, of utilities, and that's when they really started thinking about what is happening, and what will happen in the future if it's gonna get better or worse. So, from there, I specifically remember my family getting together and at the time, I was only eight. So, I was extremely confused as to what was actually happening. And so, I remember them getting together and just discussing what they should do, if they change their whole life around, if they should migrate to a whole new country where the language is not known, where they barely know anyone, to provide a better future for our family. And so I do feel like the timing was the correct one, as things did get worse in Cuba, as well as it was good timing since my aunt at the time who lived in the United States, and a US citizen, managed to sort of sponsor us, where we would enter the United States with residency, almost, I would say, like six months into living here. So, we were provided with various help, financially, when we got to the United States. As well as my parents were given certain jobs, English classes. So, I do feel like my family picked the right time, knowing where things were sort of going to go futuristic in Cuba in the island, as well as, when was the right time for us to get here, knowing that we were gonna be helped by the government, the US government.
[00:07:13] AC: Were your parents able to like work in the same sort of jobs that they did, like in Cuba?
[00:07:19] AMM: So, definitely not when they got here. It's very, very difficult, especially the language barrier, kept them from doing this right away. But for example, my mother started as a medical assistant, she worked her way up, and studied for the nursing boards. And eventually, in two to three years, I want to say, did manage to get her nursing license, in the United States. So currently, she is working as a nurse and is very happy with her job. However, my father, on the other hand, who was a pharmacist in Cuba, did not think that it was the right time, or the right choice to do all that studying, and decided that he was going to work various jobs. Right now, he does still work in the medical field. But he's more towards insurance and clinics, and that sort of industry instead of pharmaceutical.
[00:08:21] AC: So, I know that you talked about like, the economic challenges that your family faced while living in Cuba. Do you think that like the embargo, or like “el bloqueo” has impacted? I guess, like, has that do you think had an impact on like, the Cuban economy?
[00:08:39] AMM: So, um, when I was in Cuba, just to share a small story, I was very confused. I lived a good- I had a good childhood. Just because my parents, my family overall, made a really- hid it really well that the island wasn't doing well, economically. So, I would always have food on a plate. I would always have toys to play with. But little did I know that my family, my parents specifically, would stop eating so I could. Or that my family, my parents had to work an extra shift for that one toy. So as an eight-year-old, I was really confused when we made the move. And about the embargo, I would now, knowing more about the situation in Cuba and being more active about being an immigrant and seeing and facing what's currently happening with Cubans right now, I would say it's hard. Because yes, I understand the embargo but at the same time those people in Cuba, it's hard to really, how do I say this, like it's hard to see what they live day by day because there's nothing. So sometimes the only thing that they could get, the only sort of food that they could obtain, is from family that they have over at the United States. So, let's say that that is cut off, I will not know how it would feel to go hungry at night for children to not have food, and so on.
[00:0:19] AC: So, well, thank you for sharing that. Besides like, the lack of economic opportunities that your family experienced while living in Cuba, do you think like, how did the government's oppression, or how did the government of Cuba specifically impact your family? Do you ever experience any- I guess like, does your family have any experience- negative or positive experiences with the government?
[00:10:52] AMM: I don't recall any negative experiences. We never had some sort of business that they took away, or, or any, thankfully, none of us had any tragedy within the family that occurred. But I do feel like as a child, even when I didn't know much, I did experience some trauma. For example, a short story that I want to share is that in Cuba, as a kid, we were always told that you can't say the word "libtertad" out loud, which is freedom in Spanish. Since Cuba does not have rights, you couldn't just be in the streets asking for freedom. You would get- you would have this trauma that you would get taken away from your family arrested, shot at. So, I specifically remember arriving from Cuba in the Miami Airport. And the first thing I asked my mother was, Mom, could I say the word "libertad" here? And my mom just started crying. I was extremely confused as an eight-yearold. I was like, okay. But I do feel like it always gives us some trauma. Yes, the government did give me some trauma, for sure.
[00:12:13] AC: Have you had the opportunity to go back to visit Cuba? Or like do you want to?
[0012:20] AMM: Yes, so I do have basically all my mom's side still in Cuba. Two little cousins, actually. So, I did get the opportunity to visit once. However, it is extremely expensive for us born in Cuba to go and visit it. I would have to get a Cuban passport which is over $500 plus a ticket, which could easily cost you from $400, $300. So, all the expenses just for one trip to Cuba, plus all the money that you have to give your family to help them out, and friends. So, I've only been able to go back once. And I really felt how different it was, I felt sorry, for my family there. I saw how my little cousins would cry, because all they wanted to do is eat a plate of spaghetti when there wasn't any. So yes, I went back, but it was also very emotional. I saw friends that I had gone to school with. And I would explain to them what a mall was, for example, and they were just extremely confused by it because they had- they can't even picture something like that. So yeah, I did have the chance to go back. I would like to go back. However, I would like it even more for my family to come here instead.
[00:13:47] AC: How do you feel when Americans talk about Cuba? Like, I guess, you know, people in the United States have their own opinions about Cuba. Practically everyone here does have an opinion on it. But when you hear people talk about Cuba, saying it's the United States fault, for all the problems that are there, how does that make you feel? Or like what do you think when people like just like blame the United States for the problems?
[00:14:17] AMM: I highly disagree with them. I feel like Cuba's problems is Cuba's president and corrupt governments. The United States has actually, I would say, saved my life, as many other Cubans. It's the States was a place that you know us Cubans who were escaping oppression could come and live our- as you could say, American dreams. And I feel like blaming the United States for what is happening or what's happening is a mistake in my opinion. And if anything, sometimes they did even like help Cubans out, but that's just my opinion. I also feel like people who might be saying things about Cuba who haven't experienced living there or gone there aside the, the whole traveling just to see Havana which is the Capitol, should not be stating their opinion because they don't know what a life to life is for looking for food when there isn't any or providing for a family that they don't have over there.
[00:15:35] AC: Yeah, okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Do you feel like, I guess when you came, like, in North Carolina, when you tell people that you're Cuban, what do they think? Like? I mean, like, obviously, Miami, there are a lot of Cuban people. But in Chapel Hill, maybe not so much. So, you introduce yourself, you say, "Hi, I'm Ana. I'm from Cuba." What do people say?
[00:16:00] AMM: Yes, it's very, it's very cool. I would say like, it's nice to feel like they want to know more about you, like why you moved. They want to know your story, which I feel heard. Like, I really enjoy when I present myself as Cuban that I was born in Cuba and raised in Cuba, and they want to know more. I think it's very exciting. I really enjoy it. I really do. I you know, tell them I share a little bit about myself. Sometimes they're--. They don't know much about the government and what's happening. So, I like to share a little bit with them about the current situation. I feel like knowledge is always a good thing. And yeah, I really enjoy it. I enjoy when people ask me, oh, why did you migrate? Oh, that's very nice how's Cuba, like and even like to share a bit of knowledge with them.
[00:16:54] AC: Do you feel like your experiences- I actually, before I ask you this question? What like, what label? Do you like to use for yourself? When you're referred to? Like you being someone of Latin American descent? Like, do you say, do you tell people that you're Hispanic? Do you say that you're like Latina? Do you just say you're Cuban? Like, what?
[00:17:16] AMM: I typically go with Cuban just to be more specific. If not I, yeah, I use either Latina or Hispanic. I haven't I've never been really much into, "oh what am I." Or if you know, someone refers me to something that I might not be I'm not the type to really get offended, if not, maybe correct them, and share a little bit about myself with them so they understand better. But I mostly would say Cuban. For sure. Just because I like to get specific.
[00:17:50] AC: Yeah, that makes sense. So, I guess like, like speaking more broadly, do you feel like your experiences as an immigrant mirror the experiences of other Latinos in North Carolina?
[00:18:06] AMM: I feel like every immigrant or Latino is different just because everyone sort of has their own stories, their own immigrant story, their own personal struggles. Many people, for example, might have come from their home country, on a plane, or on a ship, or anything along those sorts. So, everyone has or even maybe have different reasons. But I do feel like we're sort of like a community and somehow share the same experiences, like we could understand each other more, just because we relate to other people's stories. You know, at the end of the day, I feel like most of us emigrate for a better future or to escape dictatorship. And that passion for a country or our different cultures sort of like come together and we sort of know what we're feeling emotionally and physically about what's going on back home. So yes, I do feel like we're all different, and we have different experiences. But I do at the end of the day feel like my story is very relatable to other immigrants here, or Latinos in North Carolina.
[00:19:27] AC: So, like, obviously, Miami, a lot of the people that live there are Cuban or Venezuelan or Nicaraguan, and I guess they have similar situations back in their home countries, while a lot of the immigrants who come to North Carolina are from Central America, and maybe they come due to, I guess, more economic reasons rather than political. Do you feel like you've noted that difference like, do you feel like it's harder to connect with, with Latinos here versus in Miami, when they've really like, you know, a lot of them have even come from the same country that you have? What do you think about that?
[00:20:13] AMM: I do, I really do. For example, Miami, there's a really, really big percentage of Cubans, where you just spot them in the street. And you know, they're Cuba. You might even actually know them. So, it's very funny. You in Miami, you're just another Cuban or another, Nicaraguan, or Venezuelan. It is very different, Miami, immigrants, I guess, to North Carolina. And I do feel some sort of, you know, besides our differences, some sort of, how could I say this, connection as well. Just because most immigrants, I'd like to say from Miami, have recently moved from Miami, whereas immigrants, I guess, from North Carolina, are- their parents are immigrants not really themselves. So yes, they like to share their culture proudly, and so on. But they lived it through their parents and their parents' struggles. Whereas I feel like Miami, since it's currently happening right here right now, it's very sudden, and everyone knows that it's more impacting since you just moved from another country. That also could be however, because Chapel Hill, I feel like it's very university town, location. So, you're gonna see students from a lot of places, from different backgrounds, whose parents might have migrated instead of them. Whereas Miami is a really, really big city with a lot, a lot of Latin Americans, Latins. So, I do feel it's impacted by location, as well as heritage. Yeah.
[00:22:27] AC: Would you say that the transition from living in Cuba to Miami was challenging, or very different?
[00:22:35] AMM: Yes, definitely. So, I was- so I was eight, right in Cuba, and sort of to get, like, life, I guess, figure it out, my father left first to the United States. Six months prior to when me my mom and my sister moved. And I was extremely confused. One day, my dad was gone and I was like, really confused by the situation. My family always tried to protect, like, protect me from the scenario. So, I wasn't told much. I was told that I was gonna see him very soon, that he's helping us out. But again, really, really confused. I was just going to school one day, came back and he wasn't there. I did, however, of course get to say goodbye. But it was just a really confusing situation for an eight-year-old. When we got here, that my dad was all settled, we moved in with my aunt and uncle who thankfully accepted us into their home with open arms. I started school, and I started school in the late like late third grade, I like to say, where everyone was taken already. The FCAT I think I believe there was called, I was an ESOL. I was the smallest tiniest little girl on ESOL. And I didn't know anything. All I knew is that whenever a teacher would ask me a question, or there was some sort of quiz or exam, I would cry. The only thing I would do was cry, just because of how frustrated I was to not know the language, the culture, what was happening around me. It was a very difficult time I would come home with panic attacks, explaining to my mom that I did not want to do it anymore. I wanted to go back. That where was I? I really did not like it at first. It was a really hard transition for a kid. And thankfully, that opinion has changed now. I would- I love it here. I loved Miami and the States. But yeah, at the beginning, it was definitely rough. And I feel like it's a story that many people we'll share at first having not knowing the culture or anyone or the language. But you get used to it, you get used to it one day at a time. I remember, I learned English one day to from one day to another, I don't even remember how. I remember though, how my mom would do little flashcards with pictures and names of cat for example, or dog. And little by little I learned, got used to it. School was better. Make some friends, which always helps and, yeah.
[00:25:37] AC: Very cool. So, I'd like to know a little bit, a little bit more about how you moved here. So, you said that you came on a plane and that your aunt and uncle sponsored you? Do you know how that process works? I guess like how did you like how were you able to come here? Because I know a lot of other immigrants, unfortunately, don't have that same experience.
[00:25:59] AMM: Yes. So, the reason why my uncle and aunt were here in the first place and could sponsor me was because back then in Cuba, they had like some I would say, raffle where citizens of Cuba would get randomly selected for residency in the United States. And thankfully, they both were really nice. So, they took their chance. I'm not sure what year this was. It might have even been before Fidel Castro came to govern. So, they left and they had made a life here, have been here for over 30, 40 years, I would like to say now. And when things got bad, since they were US citizens, they managed to sort of sponsor me on my family. And that process, I believe, is still going on today, but it's paused. Back then, when they sponsored us, it was a faster process, and was working more like continuous. And I believe it only took a couple of months, right after they put in like the request. And my father came six months after me, my family. I said, my mom and my sister came. And when we became US citizens, we sponsored our grandparents and our grandparents' parents sponsored other family that we have from our dad's side. And that's sort of how my family grew here in the United States. Basically, sponsor after sponsor, and I believe that once we arrived here, we did have some help from the government. So that was really beneficial for me and my family. Yeah.
[00:27:55] AC: So, it seems that you have a pretty big family. Now, like in the US, do you feel like- how would you compare Miami to Chapel Hill? Do you feel like it's hard to connect with, like your, like "Cubanidad" or "Latinidad" like living in Chapel Hill?
[00:28:16] AMM: Yes, um, I really, really had been having a hard time. Thankfully, though, I did transfer here with Miami students who were also from Cuba, Nicaragua. And I already knew some Cubans here, because we all went to the same community college in Miami. So that was really extremely helpful at the beginning, for sure. However, I don't feel like I have found like the right group of people at Chapel Hill. I do believe like, like, our community has a certain like sense of humor that maybe others here might not get along with or our personality. And so that's been extremely hard just to find my sort of people. But it is helpful that I do have some Cubans here from Miami, who have always like, kept the door open for whatever I needed, or help. And yeah,
[00:29:22] AC: Have you been able to, like meet people or connect with other people who aren't of like Cuban origin? Or do you feel like you're mostly like around other people from Miami?
[00:29:34] AMM: So, I did try, I think it was my first semester, very first or second week that this certain organization did like a meeting and it was mostly Hispanics so I was like, "Oh this is very, very nice. I'm gonna go and I'm gonna meet people. However. I was the only Cuban. And most people if not all, spoke Spanish- spoke sorry, English. I didn't feel very, I'm not gonna say welcomed, but very, I don't know, not really accepted just because most of them already had their community from their certain country, I believe it was Mexico. So, after that, I was like, "okay, I gave it a try." But I sort of always kept going back to the Cuban people that I knew here. Which I feel like I do connect more with.
[00:30:42] AC: Um, what advice? Like, I mean, I guess, like, I this can be a two-part question. So what advice would you give? Like, first off, what advice would you give somebody from Cuba coming to the United States?
[00:30:59] AMM: Okay, um, it depends. Where would they be arriving? What states like-
[00:31:05] AC: Let's say they go to Miami.
[00:31:06] AMM: Okay! I feel like Miami is a very safe place to arrive at, just because you basically speak more Spanish than English on your day-to-day. And you will know many people, it's very unlikely that you won't just because so many people have migrated. So, I do feel like you're gonna get adjusted well, you're gonna feel welcome into a community, you're gonna have people loving you every step of the way and helping you out. So, I do feel like Miami is the right place. Or at least one of them, where a Cuban could come with not knowing any language, not being as, I guess, well educated, and so on to really feel like they could make something of themselves and a future that is with the right people surrounding them.
[00:32:05] AC: Now, what advice would you give someone coming from like, Miami? Like, look, so you, you really grew up in Miami after you moved to Cuba or after you moved from Cuba. And now you're going to this new state with a new sort of demography, new people. If you were to- if someone were to ask you, what advice would you give to that person?
[00:32:30] AMM: I would admire them. I feel like one of the reasons why I decided to make the move was because I wanted a change. I was so used to my day-to-day Miami. I felt like I wasn't unique enough, just because everyone around me was Cuban, and was pursuing the same dream. I wanted to change sort of myself, like put myself not in like such a comfort zone, I wanted to get out of that comfort zone that Miami was for me. And that's essentially why I made that big change of moving from Miami to North Carolina to study. The environment was very different. I like the weather. And I was like, I think if I don't do it, now, I'm not gonna do it. And the advice that I would give that person besides telling them that they're brave, because it is a very hard decision. I feel like Hispanics are very tight with their families. And so that big move from your family is extremely emotionally draining at first. But besides telling them that they're brave, basically telling them as well that to get out there to meet people in class, talk to them. Go to club meetings, even if they're not your thing at first. If you keep trying and keep trying, I'm sure you will find the right one with the right community of people where you will feel welcome, accepted, where you could express your Cuban-ness and Hispanic descent and even share with people more about your country and why you moved. So, I think that would be my main advice.
[00:34:15] AC: Do you feel like you've grown from the transition from Miami to North Carolina?
[00:34:21] AMM: Yes, definitely. Since I've said before my family, my Cuban family, is very tightly sort of together. We do everything together. If there's a party happening, we're all going. If- we celebrate all holidays together, we eat dinner together all at one table every day at a certain time. So, I've definitely feel like I've become more independent for sure. I- since in Miami I live with both my grandma's and our mom, for example that love to cook. When my mom is stressed, the only thing that will relax her is cooking. So I- before coming here, I didn't know how to fry an egg, literally. So definitely a lot of things have changed. I feel like I've become more independent as a student, as well as a woman growing up in my 20s. So, I do feel like that's another reason why I made the move, I wanted to grow. And I felt like if I stayed at my house in Miami, with my very close family- that I feel like if I would have stayed in Miami that I would not have had the chance to experience American culture in a specific way as the one that I do in UNC. So, I do feel like this change, this move between states, especially as a student like me, was not only practical, but necessary.
[00:36:01] AC: Do you ever want to go back to Miami, like after you graduate? Do you see yourself there and like around your culture in the future?
[00:36:09] AMM: So, since I've mentioned that, I am planning to go into dental school, I don't mind where. I'm very open to moving around for dental school. However, I do feel like I've talked with friends and family about this, that Miami is home, and where I am just more comfortable with. So, I do feel like in the long run, where I want to create a family and experience life with in would be Miami at the end of the day. Yeah.
[00:36:49] AC: If you were to have stayed- So obviously, like Miami and Cuba are different in many different ways. But you know, do you feel like, if you were to have stayed in Cuba, how would your life be different now?
[00:37:05] AMM: I feel like it would have been extremely different. Not only professionally, but me as a person, I feel like I would not have been able to pursue my passion of becoming a dentist just because I saw how my parents struggled, my grandpa, my whole family essentially struggled as medical professionals. So, I do feel like I would have had to let go of that dream of becoming a dental professional. And instead, I would have probably joined the tourist industry, which pays people more than being a medical professional, it sounds crazy, but it's very realistic. Also, I feel like I would have a very unstable and stressful life, just because you don't know when your next plate of food- where it's going to come from or if you're going to find it. And that's just more stress than a human being with rights or in a country that the government should take care of, if not providing you with the essentials for you to make a living. So I- in overall I feel like one, I would have to stop pursuing my dream professionally. And two, it would just be a very stressful life. I would not be living to enjoy it. On top of that, there's no traveling. The only traveling you could do is in Cuba. So, there will be no going to Europe, going to the States, going all around the world if you wanted to just to visit. one because there's no money, and the other because Cuba doesn't allow you to.
[00:38:49] AC: So, you talk about the struggles that you feel like you would face if you had stayed in Cuba. What is life like for your family now in Cuba, like what did they do to manage?
[00:39:00] AMM: Yes, currently, the family that I have most in Cuba is my Mom's side. And that includes mostly her brother, so my uncle, his wife, and my two little cousins that are, I would say around the age of like- one is six years old and the other one is like 11. And I see their struggles, and I see how horrific it is. So, my mom thankfully provides them with food when it's needed. Because they- although my uncle works-, he's a mechanic and his wife, I believe, does something in the tourist industry, they can't provide for themselves alone. They can't pay for their housing and they can't pay for their expenses from what they make. And so, my family, especially my mother, sends them food, monthly, as well as utilities, anything that they aren't able to find in Cuba, my mom sends them- sends it to them. However, it's way more expensive. It takes time to get there, it's not assured that they will get it. So, it's very unstable, an unstable sad life. My uncle is currently battling depression just because he sees that most of his friends and most of his family are gone. And they are waiting for the same thing that was done to me, my mom, my father, and my sister, so that sponsorship from us. However, since it's from brother to- from sister to brother, it does take longer. And since that program is currently on pause, it's been, I believe, like eight years and no response. So definitely a difficult time. However, it does make it a little easier that they have our help from the States. But it still doesn't make it okay, that they're struggling this much just to provide for their family and live on a day-to-day basis[00:41:16] AC: Well, we are almost out of time, but I just wanted to ask you what else- like what do you want people to know about Cuba? About you being from Cuba?
[00:41:26] AMM: Yes, I want the people to know, even within this interview that even though there's a lot of struggles with the economy, with the government, dictatorship, and the people suffering, that we are a very rich culture island and that our identity is known. That the people are just very good people that care about each other. I remember how back when I was over there living, if any neighbor needed something, they will stop what they're doing just to help that other person. So, we are a very likeable people. Love to just talk, be communicative and help out. And I feel like if it's something that you should take from this interview, is to learn a little bit more about Cuba and how you could help and just know that its culture really is something that no other island could have. And yeah.
[00:42:30] AC: Well, thank you very much, Ana, for sharing your story with me today. And good luck with the rest of the semester.
[00:42:36] AMM: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:42:39] END OF INTERVIEW
Transcribed by: Anthony Ciano
01/20/2023
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
R-1012 -- Molina, Ana Muñoz.
Description
An account of the resource
Ana Muñoz Molina is a student at UNC Chapel Hill from Cuba who shares her experience emigrating to the United States and her role within the Latino community in Chapel Hill and Miami, where she lives with her family. Ana discusses her family’s struggles to make ends meet in Cuba and discusses the challenges she faces to feel integrated within the university’s Hispanic community, made up mostly of first-generation Americans whose experiences differ from the conditions in which she was brought up both in Miami and under the Cuban authoritarian regime. While Ana is one of over a million people of Cuban heritage living in the Miami area and her experiences may be commonplace in south Florida, Ana shares the challenges of connecting to her culture in a university environment. She also provides advice for those in similar situations: coming to the United States, being surrounded by one’s own culture, and leaving that for a journey of independence and academic growth.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-04-18
Publisher
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29352">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
R1012_Audio.mp3
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/88b943810c0094662bc5233abfac331d.mp3
76c3b731927d5f7c3fe2f2d4ca48fab1
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/f2c04a7cf33d10696907de506d85b5bc.pdf
13b6b0eb309738d91a89faf92007648e
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-1006
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
Fecha
2023-05-26
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Briceño, Adolfo.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Administrator
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1972
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Male
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Mérida -- Yucatan -- México
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Clemmons -- Forsyth County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-89.6237402 20.9670759),1972,1;POINT(-80.3819984 36.0215258),2006,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Velásquez, Daniel.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Adolfo Briceño is Program Manager of Human Relations and Diversity, Equity and Inclusion at the City of Winston-Salem. He shares his early life experience in Mérida, Mexico, where he was born and educated. Having studied economics, he grew disillusioned with the field while working as a mortgage analyst at a Cancún bank and switched careers to become a journalist for El Diario de Yucatán. During his tenure there, Adolfo was approached with a job opportunity by Qué Pasa, a North Carolina-based newsletter serving the state’s Spanish-speaking community. After five years at Qué Pasa, he again switched careers to work in fair housing investigation and landlord-tenant mediation for the City of Winston-Salem. Though his duties have expanded, he still works in this role today. Adolfo shares several stories from his time as a journalist, including his coverage of deportation, and imparts his thoughts on discrimination in the US drawn from his experiences in local government.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Adolfo Briceño by Daniel Velásquez, 26 May 2023, R-1006, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29334
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Community and social services and programs; Integration and segregation; Labor and employment; Leadership; Migratory experience
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Administrador
Es: Género de entrevistado
Hombre
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Adolfo Briceño es Director del Programa de Relaciones Humanas y Diversidad, Equidad e Inclusión de la ciudad de Winston-Salem. Comparte sus primeras experiencias de vida en Mérida (México), donde nació y se educó. Tras estudiar economía, se desilusionó con este campo mientras trabajaba como analista hipotecario en un banco de Cancún y cambió de profesión para convertirse en periodista de El Diario de Yucatán. Durante su estancia allí, Adolfo recibió una oferta de trabajo de Qué Pasa, un boletín de Carolina del Norte que sirve a la comunidad hispanohablante del estado. Transcurridos cinco años en Qué Pasa, volvió a cambiar de profesión para trabajar en el Ayuntamiento de Winston-Salem en el campo de la investigación sobre vivienda justa y la mediación entre propietarios e inquilinos. Aunque sus funciones se han ampliado, sigue desempeñando este papel en la actualidad. Adolfo comparte varias anécdotas de su tiempo como periodista, incluyendo su cobertura de la deportación, e imparte sus reflexiones sobre la discriminación en los EE.UU. basados en sus experiencias en el gobierno local.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Adolfo Briceño por Daniel Velásquez, 26 May 2023, R-1006, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Experiencia migratoria; Integración y segregación; Liderazgo; Programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios; Trabajo y empleo
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Daniel Velásquez: Okay, I am Daniel Velásquez. I'm here with Adolfo Briceño, who is Program Manager of Human Relations and Diversity, Equity and Inclusion at the City of Winston-Salem. Today is May 26th of 2023, and we are conducting this via Zoom. Adolfo, thank you so much for being with us today and for sharing your story.
Adolfo Briceño: My pleasure, Daniel. My pleasure.
DV: Okay, Adolfo, to get started, could you tell me about your personal background, where you were born and raised, any early life experiences that you want to share?
AB: Yeah, sure. I was born in Mérida, Yucatán in Mexico. This is on the Yucatán Peninsula. I was born according to my birth certificate, right. Neither of us has a memory of that event, that momentous event, right, but my birth certificate says that I was born on the sixth of June 1972 in Mérida, Yucatán, which has been the, it is still, it has been traditional in the state capital of Yucatán. So, I was born there. My father has my same name. You know, in our countries, we, so he's Adolfo Enrique Briceño Acosta. That's my father's name. My mother's is Jader Lisbeth Medina Cano. Those were my parents. My father was always like a public employee. He worked for several state and federal agencies in Yucatán or in Mexico. And my mother was a teacher, schoolteacher, I think elementary school teacher. But she quit completely when I was born. I'm a twin brother, so I have a twin that he still lives in the Yucatán. My mother tragically passed away when I was five years old. It was a car accident. We were all in the vehicle, by the way. And so, I have very little memories of her, unfortunately. I don't know, growing up in Yucatán was always a very--. I never knew that, but Yucatán has, it's kind of isolated, you know, it's a peninsula, so it juts out into the sea. And because of that, we've always, it was always difficult access. I mean, I remember at some point--well I don't remember this, right--but I know that, that the connections, the highways that join Yucatán and with the rest of the country are fairly new. I'm talking about 1970s when they started. The, maybe the international airport started in 1969. So, this created, this kind of isolation created something of a unique perspective, a unique cultural identity for those people that live in Yucatán. We have a distinct accent from the rest of the Mexicans. We say things that only are said in Yucatán for the most part. And Yucatán, because of that isolation, used to look more into Cuba, and that's why I think that's why we have some, we have some words and expressions and sayings that are more from Cuba and the Caribbean than of Yucatán, I mean, the rest of Mexico. And I think that also plays into this unique identity that we have, people from Yucatán. I lived there all my life in Mérida until I was about thirty-six years old. Well, in reality, I lived four years in Cancun, too. Cancun is also in the Yucatán Peninsula, but in a neighboring state, but it's more or less the same thing, you know. So, I really didn't have any other experience until I came to the United States here in North Carolina, in Winston-Salem. And I have stayed here the whole time. So, my whole U.S. experience is Winston-Salem, here in North Carolina.
DV: Before you came to Winston-Salem, you were educated in Mexico, and you worked there for a while, correct?
AB: Yes, of course. I mean, I lived there. I went to the university, the state university in Yucatán, which is called the Autonomous, the Yucatán Autonomous University. I think that would be the correct translation. La Universidad Autónoma de Yucatán. It was also a very respected academic institution because people from neighboring states would come to study to Yucatán. So, I studied there and I had a Bachelor in economics. That's what I ended up studying. And upon graduation, right out of college, let's say, I started working for a bank. And that's my Cancun experience. It was a national bank called Banamex. Even when I was still working for Banamex, it was bought by the Citi Group. And I think they're still part of the Citi Group. So, I worked there four years as a mortgage analyst. That was my official title. And after that, I was kind of disillusioned. How do you say that, of the banking experience--.
DV: Disillusioned?
AB: Right, so, I started, I decided to take a completely different direction and I went to work for a newspaper. And that decision was very--. It's interesting how things happen because that decision in the end brought me to the United States, I think. I work for a newspaper in Yucatán called El Diario de Yucatán. It's one of the oldest newspapers in the Yucatán and very respected, too, because at the start of the paper, several, what do you call it, goons from the regime tried to destroy the paper. This was early 1900s, but they destroyed the presses. Goons, thugs--.
DV: This was during the Porfiriato period?
AB: Yeah by the regime, went inside the paper and destroyed the printing presses twice in five or six years, I don't know. The editor of that newspaper, in 1926, he was murdered inside the newspaper. Those were interesting times of political upheaval in Yucatán and in Mexico in general. And because of that, the paper had, until this day, has a lot of, what's the word, a lot of sway, you know, with the population. I'm looking for a different word. But I couldn't find it.
DV: Influence, perhaps?
AB: Influence, we could say influence. It was a different word what I was looking for, but you get my meaning. It's one of the leading newspapers in readership in the Yucatán. And I worked for them for about four years, another four years. And while I was working there, it was interesting how all these things happened. I knew--. I was, you know, new, relatively new, two or three years working into the paper. And a very experienced reporter called in sick that day, and they sent me to one of the offices. It was a press conference for one of the conservative parties in Mexico, PAN, El Partido de Acción Nacional, if you are familiar with it. At the end of that conference, the, how to say this, it's not the marketing, let's say the press guy from the state party approached me and said, I think I know you. Now, when I was still in college, I had a very, very brief stint of two or three months, perhaps six months, working at a different local newspaper and I was just trying to pay the bills, you know, or to have a little bit of money as I was a student. But I didn't like the, I mean, it really was taking me, taking a lot of time from my studying so I quit. So anyway, from that experience, he remembered me, this guy, and said, did you want to go to the United States to work? Sure, what do I have to do? He gave me a business card. And that business card was from the Executive Director of Qué Pasa, which at the time was Francisco Cámara. I've never met Francisco in my life, but Francisco was from Yucatán, from Mérida. And this guy tells me, yeah, he’s, my friend. He called me yesterday. He's looking for a reporter, but he needs someone that speaks English. You speak English, don't you? Yeah, I speak English. Okay, call him. He gave me a business card. Don't you think that's fate? It's a very interesting, interesting coincidence, you call it, whatever you want to call it. It's almost fate. Now, I did not call the guy immediately, to be completely honest with you. I called him like a year later.
DV: Wow.
AB: Yeah, but he, I explained the whole thing that I just explained to you, and I told him, do you still think I can work from there? And he says, look, I really don't need someone there, but I might in the future. Why don't you come here? And I did. I came there five days, and I worked, you know, he just wanted to see where I was with writing. And I left, and he said, okay, thank you very much, and they paid everything. They paid my stay, they paid the ticket plane. All I had to pay during this time was my meals. And he said, well, thank you. We'll call you. And I knew there was no promise at all to--.
DV: You went back home.
AB: I went back home, yeah, I did. And then about six months into the experience, after that, I texted him and said, hey, something happened, do you think there's still a chance? And I think he had completely forgotten about me. And he said something in the email. You know something? This is funny. But my reporter just told me yesterday that he's quitting. Yeah, yeah, let's do it. Come in, and it happened.
DV: Wow.
AB: I was very lucky how I came here because they sponsored me a work visa. And I arrived here in Winston-Salem in November. The fourth or sixth of November, I cannot remember now the date.
DV: What year?
AB: 2006.
DV: So, had you been looking to come to the United States or what was really behind you reaching out to them?
AB: I thought it was going to be a good opportunity and I knew that I would get paid more than I was going to pay there so I was pretty much the story so yeah it was interesting.
DV: Was it difficult to leave family behind?
AB: Well, I was single at the time. So, I never, that was the easy part. If I had been married and with children, probably would have been a little bit more problematic. But I was single. I mean, there was nothing really holding me there, except, you know, the friends that I left and lifelong friends and I'm still in contact with them, right. But it's different, you know, when you live in a different country.
DV: What about your twin brother?
AB: He's still there. He's still working there in Mérida. He's still there. He's still there. And my family, everybody's there still. The only one that's here, of the immediate family, let's say, it's me. I'm the only one that came here. So that's the story.
DV: Do you go back often? Do you miss it?
AB: I don't know. Of course, I miss it a lot. I miss the people that are left there, and I miss the food. And yeah, of course, I should be going, I hope, at the end of this year. And it's going to be the first time I go since 2015, so.
DV: Wow.
AB: It's been a while since the last time I was there, yeah.
DV: Wow.
AB: But I think I'm hoping I will be able to go this time.
DV: How was it after you started living here in 2006 and working here?
AB: Well, it was, I--. It was interesting, but I did not know that Qué Pasa was, well, I knew because I had been, they tested me right at the start of that year. But I knew--. I thought Qué Pasa was a newspaper because I think that's how they advertised themselves, Qué Pasa newspaper. But it was not a newspaper, it was a weekly magazine. So, I was hoping, or I thought that when I was here, I was going to be working, you know, in a newspaper when you work every day in a newspaper, you know how that is. But in a magazine, weekly magazine is a little bit more laid back because you don't have to come out tomorrow, right. So, that was better, I guess, in a sense you can, you really have the sense that you're having a little bit of a life. Whereas if you're in a newspaper working every day and you every day have to produce and produce and produce, I mean your whole life really revolves around that. In the weekly magazine it's the same thing, but you know that the cycle is a little bit more extended. So that was different. And of course, the things that you find here, I never knew snow. I experienced snow here. What else? I really spoke English a lot, I think, enough to have a communication with people. But I discovered that my accent was awful. Still, we all have an accent, right. I think this accent is never going to go away. But I think it's a lot better than what it was. In such a way that I think people understand a little bit better what I'm trying to say. So that was different too. I don't know. The food before was different.
DV: What about working for Qué Pasa? You worked there for about five years, right?
AB: Five years. About five years.
DV: Do you have any highlights or anecdotes you'd like to share?
AB: Let me think. It's been so long now. I did that for so many years, five, that even today I have some people that remember me from those years and will tell me, hi, hello, this is me. You remember me? No, I'm sorry, ma'am or sir, I don't. And apparently, I did a story about them in those years, but I really can't remember. When you're doing that, it's like, I'm going to give you an analogy: Peter and I, in this movie called The Bonfire of the Vanities, if you have never seen that movie, watch it, it's really good, it's with Tom Hanks and Bruce Willis. In this movie, Bruce Willis is a reporter. And Tom Hanks is a financier, disgraced financier, and Bruce Willis is doing a story about him. And when they finally meet, Tom Hanks says, why are you doing this to me? And Bruce Willis says something like, doing this to you, not doing anything to you, you're just dinner. Tomorrow I will not remember what I ate. So that's the analogy that I can give you about those stories. This is just breakfast and dinner. Two or three years from now we will not remember. And of course, it's awful to say it that way, but it is kind of true because you don't have a choice. You have to keep producing stories. And once you produce a story, you forget it and you go to the next one. That's more or less the cycle of reporting.
DV: And you meet so many people over so many years.
AB: I'm pretty sure it was a lot of people over the years, in those years, the stories that stuck with me were about those people that were deported, for instance. Those were very, very interesting stories. There was a woman that I interviewed in Greensboro, and I think all her, I think she had lived in the United States for years, probably when she was a little girl, I really don't remember now. But I mean, she started, you know the story, they started here, the elementary, middle, high school, everything, but she was undocumented. And she was caught somehow, she was even married to an American, and they were trying to, I don't know, arrange her situation and something happened. They discover her situation, and she was arrested and sent to an immigration detention center. I don't know if she was deported or not. I think she was not. I think she was able to pay the bond to her family and she was released and that's when I interviewed her somehow. I don't know how I got in touch with her, but anyway, what I remember about this woman is that she told me that she was shackled, like from the neck, the, you know, the wrist and the ankles, and that's how they would transfer her to, went to her immigration hearing or whatever. Shackled, in chains, she felt awful. And I'm like, she was saying I'm not a criminal, I'm not, but anyway, those immigration stories really stick with you. There was another story that I did of, this was a waiter in Greensboro. Well, I didn't interview him because he was actually deported. He was Mexican, but I talked to some of his buddies, and he's saying, of course he was undocumented, right, but he went to a park in Greensboro after hours, after he left the restaurant, I don't know what time it was. You know, it was dark at night. But it is those parks in Greensboro that says, there's a sign, I went to the park myself, you know, and there's a sign that says that you cannot enter after when it's dark. But he didn't know any better and he was just walking, he just was trying to clear his mind for whatever, he was just walking in the park. And I don't know, there were houses right in front of the park and all around the park there were houses. It was like a residential neighborhood and probably somebody called the police. And the police came, and they asked him. He spoke very little English. He didn't have an ID with him. He was arrested. And it was in those days where, in those Bush years where the 287g, I don't know if you remember that law where the sheriff's department was forced to, I think they were forced into collaboration with immigration authorities--.
DV: ICE.
AB: With ICE, right. And he ended up being deported, this young man. And of course, the people, his friends, the ones that I talked to. So, he was deported because he was walking in the park. That's one of the stories that I had. I'm pretty sure that there are many, many more there that I don't remember now. But those immigration stories were always big, big, big, every time I was there.
DV: Was the readership of Qué Pasa mostly Hispanic folks in Winston-Salem?
AB: I would assume so. It was...
DV: Was it published in English?
AB: No, it was in Spanish. It was completely in Spanish. That makes sense. If you haven't seen it, the Qué Pasa is still published till this day. But they have, you know, they have shrunk. It's not what it used to be. When I started working for Qué Pasa, I remember the owner, Mr. Isasi, if he was, if he sees this, I hope he remembers. But when I, when he hired me, he told me something along the lines that we're going to be big, we're going to be growing all around the East Coast, we're going to be the name in Spanish for people to try to reach the Hispanic community. He had big plans, big ambitious plans. But the newspaper business, you know, has been shrinking and shrinking and shrinking because of social media and because of the internet. And I'm not, I think it was I never really have a plan to get into the new digital age. I think very few, actually very few traditional media have a plan to transition successfully. I mean, reading newspapers was so common, you know, it was such a powerful means. I remember my grandfather, God bless his soul, reading, he had subscription to two different newspapers in Mariana, local newspapers. And he would read them all. Getting the paper, reading the paper every day was like, you know, part of your routine. It was, it's incredible how that has changed over the years. So, anyway, so, Qué Pasa was published in Spanish, still is published in Spanish, but it's not what it used to be. It's much smaller. It has probably, I mean, half the number of employees that it used to have. I'm not sure if they have radio, because that was also a good one to punch. They had the newspaper and also radio. It was AM radio. But they also had another means of--. Anyway.
DV: Well, how do you feel about that time? Before we move on to what you did after. Do you feel proud that you shared all those stories, and if you can share them.
AB: Yeah, of course. Of course. I think we; I hope we accomplished something. And it is important what we do because I was there, you know. I think they have a reporter now. It's a young woman. She interviewed me recently, two or three weeks ago. And I don't know, I feel like, I don't know what's her arrangement with the paper, but having somebody on the ground, it's very, very important because sometimes that's the only way that they will learn how things are happening locally that affect specifically the Hispanic community. I'm going to give you an example of what I'm trying to talk about. It was a year ago, no, I think it was two years ago. Here in Winston-Salem, there was a huge fire. It was a fertilizer plant that caught fire. And the fertilizer, they have a lot of fertilizer, you know, in their warehouses. And that fertilizer plant started in the 1940s, and at the time it was, you know, way outside the city, but now there are houses all around that factory, that plant. So, when it caught fire, there was a very big, I mean, very real possibility of the plant exploding and blowing up everything around it, several, probably several miles around it. I mean, I don't know how many, but it was a real possibility that this would explode and cause massive damage, not only to the plant, but the houses around it. There was one mile, if you live one mile around the plant, you were ordered to evacuate. I mean, that's how this was a real issue and a really big concern. And because of that evacuation thing, people, you know, police officers and firefighters were knocking on people's doors, and apparently there was some, a communication issue, a communication problem with the Hispanics that live there. And I am, I was told, I mean, I haven't heard this firsthand, but I was told that many Hispanics that only speak Spanish or very little English only found out about this fire when they saw it in Univision, which is in Miami. So, that is the importance of having a local media that is read, that is widely circulated, so that these things of people don't have to, you know, rely on it. I think Qué Pasa was one of those media, but I think it has fallen a little bit into, it is not, Qué Pasa is not what it used to be, I don't think, when I was there. But it's not only Qué Pasa's problem, right. It's also a little bit of the decline in general of newspapers. And I don't think they have quite found out the way to transition. I think very, actually very few newspapers have actually been able to transition successfully from traditional newspapers into the digital media, right.
DV: I understand. And then how did you transition from being a reporter for five years here, much longer in Mexico, to working for the City of Winston-Salem?
AB: Well, I found about this opportunity by chance also, but being a reporter facilitated this because the person that was here was a young man, very, very, a fine young man called Carlos, Carlos Bocanegra. He's the son of a very, also a very esteemed pastor here in Winston-Salem. His church was actually in Kernersville. But anyway, I was just looking for stories, you know, and sometimes you don't have nothing, absolutely nothing, all you have to do is call, cold calling the sources that in the past of new stories for you. So, I think it was January of that year, 2011, when I was, and it was January because, and you know January, the first days of the year, the first two weeks of the year are terrible for the news cycle because there's really nothing going on, right. Everybody's on vacation, everybody's returning and kind of transitioning into--. So I called him and said, hey, you have something that I don't know, is there something that you guys are doing that I need to know, to print about? And he told me something like, well, I'm moving out. You are? Yeah, I'm going to this position is going to be vacant. Oh, really? So that's how I knew the position was vacant because I was really not looking, right.
DV: And what was the position?
AB: The position was human relations analyst. It's the same position that I have now. It is just that after so many years of being here, and the department grew too from the Human Relations, and now it's Human Relations slash Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. So, we grew from five people to twelve. So, because of that, I was given the opportunity to be a program manager. So, I'm like, it's a little bit of a supervisory responsibility. But it's basically the same position, although then, I mean, I'm still doing the same things that I always did, which is landlord-tenant mediation. And now it's fair housing complaints. But now I have that added responsibility. I am responsible for the language access coordinators. So anyway, so that's how I found out about this opportunity. And I asked Carlos, if I were to be interested, what do I need to do? Do I have to apply and everything? And I did. And they interviewed me, and I ended up being selected for the position. And that was twelve years ago, in 2011. So, that's the story of how I am here.
DV: Wow, time flies.
AB: Yeah.
DV: Tell us some highlights about your twelve years in the City of Winston-Salem.
AB: Sure.
DV: I think some of the highlights could be, when it comes to Fair Housing Discrimination Commission. Remember that these complaints are supposed to be confidential, right. But I think one of the first cases I had was a massive case. It was a trailer home place. And the majority, I mean, probably 95 or 90% plus of the campus were Hispanics, for the most part Mexican. And they had a problem with the water, the way it was being billed, because they were getting their water billed monthly, not bi-monthly, like if you have your water here from the city of Winston-Salem. It's actually called Forsyth County slash Winston-Salem Utilities, something like that. Anyway, you are billed bimonthly. But in this case, you are billed, in the case of the these trailer homes, they were billed monthly. And some of the bills that they were receiving were $600, $400, even $200. And you're talking about twelve years ago. So, it was something. And they – we received – because of that issue with the water, we received something like thirty-two complaints from that place. So that was an interesting case.
DV: So, you mediated that.
AB: In some cases, there was no, nothing really there. Because in some cases, the allegation was that the white people that lived in the building were not paying water at all, and that was not the truth. They were paying water, but they were not paying as much as them. Some of them we were able to mediate, you know, they received some type of reimbursement of some kind. And some of them were causes, as we say in the business, meaning that I thought there was something there that could account for a discriminatory action. That was my very first case. Over the years, what other cases I could mention? An interesting one that I had was of a woman that said that she had a disability. And even the slightest of smells, it was too much for her to bear. She could not, I mean, there's a disability with the senses, with your sense of smell. And she said that somebody was smoking, in a non-smoking area. And she thought it was her neighbors, but there were seventeen different apartments in the building, and they were all connected. So that was a, it was very difficult to say, defend definitively. She had cameras and some people were out. Some people, she clearly saw people smoking, you know, would go in and they were smoking, they would throw-in a non-smoking area. So, that was a difficult case. But in the end, I said that I didn't think there was something there that could account for discriminatory action regarding that with them. Anyway, the interesting thing of this job is that I had to learn really everything in here and I had to learn also the history. I call it the racialized history of the United States and it's something that they don't, the United States in general don't openly broadcast, right, but that was the racialized history of the United States, how the segregation was something that happened in this country. And it was real, and it was in your face, and it was ugly. And I did not know that, you know, until I came here to study that. And it's part of the history of what we do now, right. All those, all that history, especially with housing. I had to learn that. I mean, some people that have lived here, you know, live through it, you know, and they were in segregated housing. They were in segregated schools. Even hospitals were segregated. I mean, everything was ruled truly. I mean, that was how it used to be. It is not now like that anymore. The discrimination is not in your face. It's not ugly. It's not, you know, it's not obvious. But I sometimes feel that discrimination is a little bit like, I don't know, viruses in your computer. That's what I think. Just because you haven't had an infection in two years, that doesn't mean it's never going to happen ever. You still have to keep your guard against it. And the way it happens, it can change. I always tell people that in Facebook, I had a famous case, that was two or three years ago, probably more than that, but before the pandemic. The National Fair Housing Alliance is a big, big fair housing organization in the United States based in Washington, realized that if you were an advertiser on Facebook, you could choose who could see your information, probably who could see your ads, right. So, they could choose if you liked, and I'm thinking of the actual things that happened in that case, you could choose the people that like Telemundo Deportes. You didn't want them to see your ad. You could click that and block them. In another category that they were blocking, that you could block, was those who were US veterans. If you had a house for rent, you could block them too. I don't want veterans from seeing my commercial, my ad. You have to pay, right, for every one of those restrictions, but you could, you know, laser focus, let's say, your ad. And the National Fair Housing Alliance thought that that was, that could be discriminatory, right, because if you block people that have, that have liked Telemundo Deportes, what, who do you think likes Telemundo Deportes? Somebody that probably looks like you and me, right? And they thought that was discriminatory. And of course, if you block those people that say that they are veterans of the U.S. Army, why are you doing that? I think because they don't want to see somebody that appears on a wheelchair on their property, right, or somebody that has PTSD, right. And anyway, if Facebook eventually paid the Fair Housing National Fair Housing Alliance two or three million a year, I'm sorry, two or three million dollars, perhaps five. I don't know. You can watch this online, this is not privileged information, it's public now and it's online. But this is just to say that these things, even though discrimination is not ugly in your face anymore, or in the law, it still can find ways to happen. And we have to keep ourselves, keep our guards [up] against it.
DV: In your mediatory role for the city, have you had to, have you encountered a lot of that discrimination and have you had to address it?
AB: I have never encountered somebody that acknowledges or admits to me openly, yes, I deny that housing because he's Black or because he's Hispanic. Every time, in every single one of my investigations that I have entered, they say, “no, I'm not a racist. I'm not, no, this is awful. This is terrible. This is a mistake. And I'm the victim.” I've never had ever in twelve years, nobody has admitted to me, yes, I did it because I don't want, and you put in the blank. I don't want Black people in my property, or I don't want Hispanics in my property. I don't want Asians in my property, or I don't want people that use wheelchairs in my property. No one has ever said that to me, if that's what you're wondering. So, you have to dig, you really have to investigate, and you have to try to find that evidence that you need if you want to close the case, right. And of course, if you cannot find any evidence, you're going to say, sorry, I have had some cases, especially with Hispanics, it's interesting being how our people that belong to our culture, for the most part, they say, nah, no, don't get me involved, I don't want, no, no, I'm not going to participate. Some witnesses, I think at least I had two cases in the past where I thought this was leaning towards a discriminatory action, but the witnesses were like, no, I'm not going to do it, I'm sorry. I’m not going to court. I don't know, I'm, I mean, that's sometimes the attitude that I find from Hispanics. They don't, just don't want to do it, even if they have documents already. Sometimes, I think in one case, this lady was a citizen, but it's the same thing. I mean, look, I just got my citizenship. I really don't want to mess with this. I'm sorry, I mean, and the other lady was a legal resident, and she told me, this was two different cases, of course, and she told me something like, look, I'm going to ask my husband, let's see what you think, and I'll get back in touch with you.
DV: Do you think there's some distrust of power structures, local governments that kind of prevents folks from wanting to come forward?
AB: I don't know. That is always like a, I think it's a stereotype. I think the reality, or the reason is more complicated than that. But I think in general, if you're a foreigner and Hispanic, that's probably what you're going to choose to do. Look, I'm sorry, thank you, no. But if you were born here in the United States, I think those are the Hispanics that have, they don't have that fear whatsoever. They are more willing to engage in activism, I think. It's not, this is also a stereotype, right I’m pretty sure there are some foreigners and probably some undocumented individuals that are really active and they will go where trouble is and will try to, you know, do their best to address what they believe is an unjust situation. But I think in my experience, that is how you can tell, right, if they're a foreigner, if they were born outside the United States and are here working, even if they have documents, they're going to say, no, thank you, but no. I'll find ways, or we'll find ways to deal with this, but no. But it's different if, with the children that are already born here. They are the ones, I think, that are already active, that embrace activism because they don't have that fear of, they're going to kick me out, right. I think that is, I could summarize my experience that way.
DV: Okay. Are there any other experiences you want to share?
AB: I think those are the ones with mediation cases that also we could go on, you know, in twelve years.
DV: So, what were some challenges that you felt like followed you or you had to navigate through? Were there any large challenges that you had to overcome?
AB: Probably the challenges have been, first, since we did not grow up with this system, we have to learn the system, how it works. In our countries, I don't think there are housing authorities, for instance, right, where people receive vouchers to pay for rent. That's something that's an American thing almost completely, right. So, that was where I had to learn that, and I had to navigate that thing. And I mean, and even the discrimination part, I mean, I'm pretty sure in our countries, there are no discrimination laws like the ones that we have here in the United States. So, it's, the challenge has always been the system, learning the system and learning how the system works because you cannot rely on your experience, and you cannot rely on your memory of how it was when you were growing up. You don't have that, so you have to-- that's one of the challenges that I have. And another challenge, of course, is the language. Sometimes people, even to this day, will claim or complain that they can't really understand me. They were like, what? What do you say? Can you please repeat that to me? Speak louder or slower because I can't understand what you're saying. It doesn't happen often, but still happens and that is frustrating when people tell you that. I'm going to tell you also two experiences. There was one time when I was, I mean I just grabbed the phone, and I said my name and my position because that's what you're supposed to do when you pick up the phone. And this woman said, the first thing she said is, can I talk to an American? Like that. And another time it was an individual, it was a guy that said, I don't know why the City of Winston-Salem hires people that can't speak English. And, wow, he hangs up the phone on me.
DV: Wow.
AB: Yeah, so that's another challenge. The language can be challenging, even though I feel like now, I think I feel like I'm okay and I can understand them. Even when you find people that have this very thick Southern accent, that could be, that used to be such a challenge, just try to understand them. But now it's okay. I think I'm much better than that. And in reality, since I have not lived in any other part of the United States, it's not a challenge either because that's the various accented English that I hear is the southern accent. And, you know, you're much, much more used to hear it now than after all these years.
DV: Okay. Now, back on those challenges, how did you square them away in your head? How do you think about them? You navigated through, I would say, some discrimination for your accent. So did you just say, okay, we just move on? Or did you address that in any other way.
AB: There's no-- it's part of the things that you have to brush off. You cannot hang on to it and you cannot, you know, stay with it. I mean, it is really no point, and it could be toxic. So, it's okay. I mean, it's water under the bridge, as they say here, it came and go, and you keep on going. There is no way you will find perhaps those attitudes every now and then, but for the most part I think, I really believe the United States is a very progressive nation in that sense and of course we cannot say every single American is that way. There's not such thing, right, but I think the United States is, like in many other fields, is at the forefront of these social issues. It's not perfect. Probably it will never be perfect. But they are trying, and that's what you trying to keep all these things in perspective. A few individuals will challenge your notions of what I just told you, right. And they're going to be backwards and they're going to be ignorant in many ways. But you cannot really, the totality of the actions of the United States of America leads you to think into a different direction, even though it is not uniform, and it is not equal. Progress, it will never be equal and uniform for every single one of the individuals, right. But we just have to keep chugging at it. In various circles, I have said this, in 1538, something like that, there was a Spanish bishop that wrote a letter saying that the natives of the Americas were slaves, in a way, in so much way, a natura. That's the expression he wrote. I mean, so they are there for the taking, right. The natives are there for us, just like the plants and just like the animals are in the land. They were just part of the same possibility. Now, fast forward that three hundred years and we have the Civil War in the United States, right. And then one hundred years after that, we still, we get the, in 1968, the Fair Housing Act, three years before in 1965, the Voting Rights Act. So, what I always say to people is, I mean, why, I mean, this is a train that has been going on like this for four hundred years. What makes you think that it's going to completely stop and we're going to dismantle this in fifty. I mean this is something that's going to take probably centuries probably our grandchildren will start seeing the fruits of this labor it's not going to stop in a generation or two this is something that is ingrained in our psyches and so that's the perspective that I try to tell people. Some people say no this is never going to change. And I'm like well perhaps it's not going to change in our lifetimes, but this will change eventually. Somebody else said well we're probably going to have, we will need an exogenous event to make us, yeah, probably the rise of the machines is going to make us, you know, a terminator type of event that will tell, yeah, let's unite. I don't care, yeah, you're Muslim, you're Black, I don't care, look at, what the machines are doing to us. I hope we never see that world, right. It will be apocalyptic. But I tend to think that that vision is probably right. There's going to be an exogenous event that will make us see the foolishness of this separation of humanity, right, of this categorization of humanity into level of worthiness based on your external appearance. There was probably a time when that was perhaps necessary, but we eventually, it is all going to be superfluous, is going to be unnecessary, is going to be ridiculous, right. Eventually, I think it's going to be like that. I don't think it's going to happen in the next 50 years, but it will happen. I firmly believe that.
DV: With that positive thoughts, not the rise of the machines part [laughter], with those positive thoughts and bringing it back to your experience, what would you say were some factors that have helped you along the way in your life and career?
AB: But it is true that if you have a work ethic, a hard work ethic, the results will be there. And I think that is the basis and foundation for everything you do. I've always said that yes, sometimes relationships are important or matter, but they only matter if you have something to show. And if you have results, to back it up, it's easier to have someone to vouch for you and to make a recommendation. I always think that it starts with you and the work that you do and your perspective. And you have to take responsibility of your actions for everything you cannot be blaming other people for what happens to you maybe it is the truth that in some cases other people may be to blame for one or two events in your life, but in general you need to take control, I hope I am answering your question that is my philosophy, my, I mean, it starts like that. Sadly, I'm seeing some people, you know, online and on social media that says that it is a lie, that if you work hard, you're never going to get anywhere because everything is already decided by the elites and the white people of this nation or something like that. And I truly and completely disagree with that. You need to work hard. And if you do, positive results will take place in your life, even if those positive results are not the ones that you imagined in the first place or of a lesser magnitude that you were expecting, but they will happen. I mean, and if you have, I think that philosophy is actually dangerous. The thing that, no, it doesn't matter what, how much you do, you're never going to get out of your bog or your, whatever situation is that you're in. I think it's a dangerous attitude and anyway, that's what I think. I hope I have answered your question.
DV: Yeah. Thank you. Well, to conclude, what do you hope for the future? Be it for your own personal life or professional life or for your community?
AB: In my personal life, I hope I still have a job in twenty years. Hopefully it's going to be--.
DV: Before the machines take your job right.
AB: Yeah, either this job or a better paid job than the one that I have. I hope there's still a social security net by the time I retire. I certainly hope that. About the community, I think eventually the community will grow. Here in North Carolina, there are already a lot of Hispanics that were born in this land. And they will come to be, you know, leaders in their own community. And not only in the Hispanic community, but they will be leaders, period, of all the community. I think that's going to happen. And I hope that at some point when we think about Hispanics, we don't think it under that slant of poverty and disadvantage and disenfranchisement. And when we think of Hispanics, we're going to be a true engine of the society. We will not need, you know, society's pity to get along. Not to get along, to move along, I hope that eventually that's how it's going to be. And we will not need intermediaries, right, to reach the society as a whole. We will not need a spokesperson or somebody that speaks for us. And we will be able to, you know, to just be just like every other community here that doesn't need special dispensations to, I think that's how eventually it's going to be. Because I think most of what we are here to do is working, right? And that's what we came here for, to work and to build a solid and stable future for our children and our families in general. And eventually, I think it will happen, and we will come to be very mature, like in other parts of the United States, right. In Florida and in California and Texas, where there is no more any dissonance, right. It's not either Hispanic or American, you know, and you can be, you will be able to be American even though you're Hispanic and there will not be this bifurcated perception of you eventually that will come to pass and that will, and it will be naturally embraced by society as a whole, I think, and I hope that's what the future will bring to us all.
DV: Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts and your experiences with us, Adolfo.
AB: Sure, absolutely, my pleasure. I hope it is my contribution to this wonderful project that you guys are doing.
DV: Thank you, and see you next time.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Transcribers: Sofia Godoy & Daniel Velásquez
Interview Date: 2023 May 26
Date of Transcription: 2023 August 7 / Revisions: 2023 October 19
Es: Transcripción
Daniel Velásquez: Okay, I am Daniel Velásquez. I'm here with Adolfo Briceño, who is Program Manager of Human Relations and Diversity, Equity and Inclusion at the City of Winston-Salem. Today is May 26th of 2023, and we are conducting this via Zoom. Adolfo, thank you so much for being with us today and for sharing your story.
Adolfo Briceño: My pleasure, Daniel. My pleasure.
DV: Okay, Adolfo, to get started, could you tell me about your personal background, where you were born and raised, any early life experiences that you want to share?
AB: Yeah, sure. I was born in Mérida, Yucatán in Mexico. This is on the Yucatán Peninsula. I was born according to my birth certificate, right. Neither of us has a memory of that event, that momentous event, right, but my birth certificate says that I was born on the sixth of June 1972 in Mérida, Yucatán, which has been the, it is still, it has been traditional in the state capital of Yucatán. So, I was born there. My father has my same name. You know, in our countries, we, so he's Adolfo Enrique Briceño Acosta. That's my father's name. My mother's is Jader Lisbeth Medina Cano. Those were my parents. My father was always like a public employee. He worked for several state and federal agencies in Yucatán or in Mexico. And my mother was a teacher, schoolteacher, I think elementary school teacher. But she quit completely when I was born. I'm a twin brother, so I have a twin that he still lives in the Yucatán. My mother tragically passed away when I was five years old. It was a car accident. We were all in the vehicle, by the way. And so, I have very little memories of her, unfortunately. I don't know, growing up in Yucatán was always a very--. I never knew that, but Yucatán has, it's kind of isolated, you know, it's a peninsula, so it juts out into the sea. And because of that, we've always, it was always difficult access. I mean, I remember at some point--well I don't remember this, right--but I know that, that the connections, the highways that join Yucatán and with the rest of the country are fairly new. I'm talking about 1970s when they started. The, maybe the international airport started in 1969. So, this created, this kind of isolation created something of a unique perspective, a unique cultural identity for those people that live in Yucatán. We have a distinct accent from the rest of the Mexicans. We say things that only are said in Yucatán for the most part. And Yucatán, because of that isolation, used to look more into Cuba, and that's why I think that's why we have some, we have some words and expressions and sayings that are more from Cuba and the Caribbean than of Yucatán, I mean, the rest of Mexico. And I think that also plays into this unique identity that we have, people from Yucatán. I lived there all my life in Mérida until I was about thirty-six years old. Well, in reality, I lived four years in Cancun, too. Cancun is also in the Yucatán Peninsula, but in a neighboring state, but it's more or less the same thing, you know. So, I really didn't have any other experience until I came to the United States here in North Carolina, in Winston-Salem. And I have stayed here the whole time. So, my whole U.S. experience is Winston-Salem, here in North Carolina.
DV: Before you came to Winston-Salem, you were educated in Mexico, and you worked there for a while, correct?
AB: Yes, of course. I mean, I lived there. I went to the university, the state university in Yucatán, which is called the Autonomous, the Yucatán Autonomous University. I think that would be the correct translation. La Universidad Autónoma de Yucatán. It was also a very respected academic institution because people from neighboring states would come to study to Yucatán. So, I studied there and I had a Bachelor in economics. That's what I ended up studying. And upon graduation, right out of college, let's say, I started working for a bank. And that's my Cancun experience. It was a national bank called Banamex. Even when I was still working for Banamex, it was bought by the Citi Group. And I think they're still part of the Citi Group. So, I worked there four years as a mortgage analyst. That was my official title. And after that, I was kind of disillusioned. How do you say that, of the banking experience--.
DV: Disillusioned?
AB: Right, so, I started, I decided to take a completely different direction and I went to work for a newspaper. And that decision was very--. It's interesting how things happen because that decision in the end brought me to the United States, I think. I work for a newspaper in Yucatán called El Diario de Yucatán. It's one of the oldest newspapers in the Yucatán and very respected, too, because at the start of the paper, several, what do you call it, goons from the regime tried to destroy the paper. This was early 1900s, but they destroyed the presses. Goons, thugs--.
DV: This was during the Porfiriato period?
AB: Yeah by the regime, went inside the paper and destroyed the printing presses twice in five or six years, I don't know. The editor of that newspaper, in 1926, he was murdered inside the newspaper. Those were interesting times of political upheaval in Yucatán and in Mexico in general. And because of that, the paper had, until this day, has a lot of, what's the word, a lot of sway, you know, with the population. I'm looking for a different word. But I couldn't find it.
DV: Influence, perhaps?
AB: Influence, we could say influence. It was a different word what I was looking for, but you get my meaning. It's one of the leading newspapers in readership in the Yucatán. And I worked for them for about four years, another four years. And while I was working there, it was interesting how all these things happened. I knew--. I was, you know, new, relatively new, two or three years working into the paper. And a very experienced reporter called in sick that day, and they sent me to one of the offices. It was a press conference for one of the conservative parties in Mexico, PAN, El Partido de Acción Nacional, if you are familiar with it. At the end of that conference, the, how to say this, it's not the marketing, let's say the press guy from the state party approached me and said, I think I know you. Now, when I was still in college, I had a very, very brief stint of two or three months, perhaps six months, working at a different local newspaper and I was just trying to pay the bills, you know, or to have a little bit of money as I was a student. But I didn't like the, I mean, it really was taking me, taking a lot of time from my studying so I quit. So anyway, from that experience, he remembered me, this guy, and said, did you want to go to the United States to work? Sure, what do I have to do? He gave me a business card. And that business card was from the Executive Director of Qué Pasa, which at the time was Francisco Cámara. I've never met Francisco in my life, but Francisco was from Yucatán, from Mérida. And this guy tells me, yeah, he’s, my friend. He called me yesterday. He's looking for a reporter, but he needs someone that speaks English. You speak English, don't you? Yeah, I speak English. Okay, call him. He gave me a business card. Don't you think that's fate? It's a very interesting, interesting coincidence, you call it, whatever you want to call it. It's almost fate. Now, I did not call the guy immediately, to be completely honest with you. I called him like a year later.
DV: Wow.
AB: Yeah, but he, I explained the whole thing that I just explained to you, and I told him, do you still think I can work from there? And he says, look, I really don't need someone there, but I might in the future. Why don't you come here? And I did. I came there five days, and I worked, you know, he just wanted to see where I was with writing. And I left, and he said, okay, thank you very much, and they paid everything. They paid my stay, they paid the ticket plane. All I had to pay during this time was my meals. And he said, well, thank you. We'll call you. And I knew there was no promise at all to--.
DV: You went back home.
AB: I went back home, yeah, I did. And then about six months into the experience, after that, I texted him and said, hey, something happened, do you think there's still a chance? And I think he had completely forgotten about me. And he said something in the email. You know something? This is funny. But my reporter just told me yesterday that he's quitting. Yeah, yeah, let's do it. Come in, and it happened.
DV: Wow.
AB: I was very lucky how I came here because they sponsored me a work visa. And I arrived here in Winston-Salem in November. The fourth or sixth of November, I cannot remember now the date.
DV: What year?
AB: 2006.
DV: So, had you been looking to come to the United States or what was really behind you reaching out to them?
AB: I thought it was going to be a good opportunity and I knew that I would get paid more than I was going to pay there so I was pretty much the story so yeah it was interesting.
DV: Was it difficult to leave family behind?
AB: Well, I was single at the time. So, I never, that was the easy part. If I had been married and with children, probably would have been a little bit more problematic. But I was single. I mean, there was nothing really holding me there, except, you know, the friends that I left and lifelong friends and I'm still in contact with them, right. But it's different, you know, when you live in a different country.
DV: What about your twin brother?
AB: He's still there. He's still working there in Mérida. He's still there. He's still there. And my family, everybody's there still. The only one that's here, of the immediate family, let's say, it's me. I'm the only one that came here. So that's the story.
DV: Do you go back often? Do you miss it?
AB: I don't know. Of course, I miss it a lot. I miss the people that are left there, and I miss the food. And yeah, of course, I should be going, I hope, at the end of this year. And it's going to be the first time I go since 2015, so.
DV: Wow.
AB: It's been a while since the last time I was there, yeah.
DV: Wow.
AB: But I think I'm hoping I will be able to go this time.
DV: How was it after you started living here in 2006 and working here?
AB: Well, it was, I--. It was interesting, but I did not know that Qué Pasa was, well, I knew because I had been, they tested me right at the start of that year. But I knew--. I thought Qué Pasa was a newspaper because I think that's how they advertised themselves, Qué Pasa newspaper. But it was not a newspaper, it was a weekly magazine. So, I was hoping, or I thought that when I was here, I was going to be working, you know, in a newspaper when you work every day in a newspaper, you know how that is. But in a magazine, weekly magazine is a little bit more laid back because you don't have to come out tomorrow, right. So, that was better, I guess, in a sense you can, you really have the sense that you're having a little bit of a life. Whereas if you're in a newspaper working every day and you every day have to produce and produce and produce, I mean your whole life really revolves around that. In the weekly magazine it's the same thing, but you know that the cycle is a little bit more extended. So that was different. And of course, the things that you find here, I never knew snow. I experienced snow here. What else? I really spoke English a lot, I think, enough to have a communication with people. But I discovered that my accent was awful. Still, we all have an accent, right. I think this accent is never going to go away. But I think it's a lot better than what it was. In such a way that I think people understand a little bit better what I'm trying to say. So that was different too. I don't know. The food before was different.
DV: What about working for Qué Pasa? You worked there for about five years, right?
AB: Five years. About five years.
DV: Do you have any highlights or anecdotes you'd like to share?
AB: Let me think. It's been so long now. I did that for so many years, five, that even today I have some people that remember me from those years and will tell me, hi, hello, this is me. You remember me? No, I'm sorry, ma'am or sir, I don't. And apparently, I did a story about them in those years, but I really can't remember. When you're doing that, it's like, I'm going to give you an analogy: Peter and I, in this movie called The Bonfire of the Vanities, if you have never seen that movie, watch it, it's really good, it's with Tom Hanks and Bruce Willis. In this movie, Bruce Willis is a reporter. And Tom Hanks is a financier, disgraced financier, and Bruce Willis is doing a story about him. And when they finally meet, Tom Hanks says, why are you doing this to me? And Bruce Willis says something like, doing this to you, not doing anything to you, you're just dinner. Tomorrow I will not remember what I ate. So that's the analogy that I can give you about those stories. This is just breakfast and dinner. Two or three years from now we will not remember. And of course, it's awful to say it that way, but it is kind of true because you don't have a choice. You have to keep producing stories. And once you produce a story, you forget it and you go to the next one. That's more or less the cycle of reporting.
DV: And you meet so many people over so many years.
AB: I'm pretty sure it was a lot of people over the years, in those years, the stories that stuck with me were about those people that were deported, for instance. Those were very, very interesting stories. There was a woman that I interviewed in Greensboro, and I think all her, I think she had lived in the United States for years, probably when she was a little girl, I really don't remember now. But I mean, she started, you know the story, they started here, the elementary, middle, high school, everything, but she was undocumented. And she was caught somehow, she was even married to an American, and they were trying to, I don't know, arrange her situation and something happened. They discover her situation, and she was arrested and sent to an immigration detention center. I don't know if she was deported or not. I think she was not. I think she was able to pay the bond to her family and she was released and that's when I interviewed her somehow. I don't know how I got in touch with her, but anyway, what I remember about this woman is that she told me that she was shackled, like from the neck, the, you know, the wrist and the ankles, and that's how they would transfer her to, went to her immigration hearing or whatever. Shackled, in chains, she felt awful. And I'm like, she was saying I'm not a criminal, I'm not, but anyway, those immigration stories really stick with you. There was another story that I did of, this was a waiter in Greensboro. Well, I didn't interview him because he was actually deported. He was Mexican, but I talked to some of his buddies, and he's saying, of course he was undocumented, right, but he went to a park in Greensboro after hours, after he left the restaurant, I don't know what time it was. You know, it was dark at night. But it is those parks in Greensboro that says, there's a sign, I went to the park myself, you know, and there's a sign that says that you cannot enter after when it's dark. But he didn't know any better and he was just walking, he just was trying to clear his mind for whatever, he was just walking in the park. And I don't know, there were houses right in front of the park and all around the park there were houses. It was like a residential neighborhood and probably somebody called the police. And the police came, and they asked him. He spoke very little English. He didn't have an ID with him. He was arrested. And it was in those days where, in those Bush years where the 287g, I don't know if you remember that law where the sheriff's department was forced to, I think they were forced into collaboration with immigration authorities--.
DV: ICE.
AB: With ICE, right. And he ended up being deported, this young man. And of course, the people, his friends, the ones that I talked to. So, he was deported because he was walking in the park. That's one of the stories that I had. I'm pretty sure that there are many, many more there that I don't remember now. But those immigration stories were always big, big, big, every time I was there.
DV: Was the readership of Qué Pasa mostly Hispanic folks in Winston-Salem?
AB: I would assume so. It was...
DV: Was it published in English?
AB: No, it was in Spanish. It was completely in Spanish. That makes sense. If you haven't seen it, the Qué Pasa is still published till this day. But they have, you know, they have shrunk. It's not what it used to be. When I started working for Qué Pasa, I remember the owner, Mr. Isasi, if he was, if he sees this, I hope he remembers. But when I, when he hired me, he told me something along the lines that we're going to be big, we're going to be growing all around the East Coast, we're going to be the name in Spanish for people to try to reach the Hispanic community. He had big plans, big ambitious plans. But the newspaper business, you know, has been shrinking and shrinking and shrinking because of social media and because of the internet. And I'm not, I think it was I never really have a plan to get into the new digital age. I think very few, actually very few traditional media have a plan to transition successfully. I mean, reading newspapers was so common, you know, it was such a powerful means. I remember my grandfather, God bless his soul, reading, he had subscription to two different newspapers in Mariana, local newspapers. And he would read them all. Getting the paper, reading the paper every day was like, you know, part of your routine. It was, it's incredible how that has changed over the years. So, anyway, so, Qué Pasa was published in Spanish, still is published in Spanish, but it's not what it used to be. It's much smaller. It has probably, I mean, half the number of employees that it used to have. I'm not sure if they have radio, because that was also a good one to punch. They had the newspaper and also radio. It was AM radio. But they also had another means of--. Anyway.
DV: Well, how do you feel about that time? Before we move on to what you did after. Do you feel proud that you shared all those stories, and if you can share them.
AB: Yeah, of course. Of course. I think we; I hope we accomplished something. And it is important what we do because I was there, you know. I think they have a reporter now. It's a young woman. She interviewed me recently, two or three weeks ago. And I don't know, I feel like, I don't know what's her arrangement with the paper, but having somebody on the ground, it's very, very important because sometimes that's the only way that they will learn how things are happening locally that affect specifically the Hispanic community. I'm going to give you an example of what I'm trying to talk about. It was a year ago, no, I think it was two years ago. Here in Winston-Salem, there was a huge fire. It was a fertilizer plant that caught fire. And the fertilizer, they have a lot of fertilizer, you know, in their warehouses. And that fertilizer plant started in the 1940s, and at the time it was, you know, way outside the city, but now there are houses all around that factory, that plant. So, when it caught fire, there was a very big, I mean, very real possibility of the plant exploding and blowing up everything around it, several, probably several miles around it. I mean, I don't know how many, but it was a real possibility that this would explode and cause massive damage, not only to the plant, but the houses around it. There was one mile, if you live one mile around the plant, you were ordered to evacuate. I mean, that's how this was a real issue and a really big concern. And because of that evacuation thing, people, you know, police officers and firefighters were knocking on people's doors, and apparently there was some, a communication issue, a communication problem with the Hispanics that live there. And I am, I was told, I mean, I haven't heard this firsthand, but I was told that many Hispanics that only speak Spanish or very little English only found out about this fire when they saw it in Univision, which is in Miami. So, that is the importance of having a local media that is read, that is widely circulated, so that these things of people don't have to, you know, rely on it. I think Qué Pasa was one of those media, but I think it has fallen a little bit into, it is not, Qué Pasa is not what it used to be, I don't think, when I was there. But it's not only Qué Pasa's problem, right. It's also a little bit of the decline in general of newspapers. And I don't think they have quite found out the way to transition. I think very, actually very few newspapers have actually been able to transition successfully from traditional newspapers into the digital media, right.
DV: I understand. And then how did you transition from being a reporter for five years here, much longer in Mexico, to working for the City of Winston-Salem?
AB: Well, I found about this opportunity by chance also, but being a reporter facilitated this because the person that was here was a young man, very, very, a fine young man called Carlos, Carlos Bocanegra. He's the son of a very, also a very esteemed pastor here in Winston-Salem. His church was actually in Kernersville. But anyway, I was just looking for stories, you know, and sometimes you don't have nothing, absolutely nothing, all you have to do is call, cold calling the sources that in the past of new stories for you. So, I think it was January of that year, 2011, when I was, and it was January because, and you know January, the first days of the year, the first two weeks of the year are terrible for the news cycle because there's really nothing going on, right. Everybody's on vacation, everybody's returning and kind of transitioning into--. So I called him and said, hey, you have something that I don't know, is there something that you guys are doing that I need to know, to print about? And he told me something like, well, I'm moving out. You are? Yeah, I'm going to this position is going to be vacant. Oh, really? So that's how I knew the position was vacant because I was really not looking, right.
DV: And what was the position?
AB: The position was human relations analyst. It's the same position that I have now. It is just that after so many years of being here, and the department grew too from the Human Relations, and now it's Human Relations slash Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. So, we grew from five people to twelve. So, because of that, I was given the opportunity to be a program manager. So, I'm like, it's a little bit of a supervisory responsibility. But it's basically the same position, although then, I mean, I'm still doing the same things that I always did, which is landlord-tenant mediation. And now it's fair housing complaints. But now I have that added responsibility. I am responsible for the language access coordinators. So anyway, so that's how I found out about this opportunity. And I asked Carlos, if I were to be interested, what do I need to do? Do I have to apply and everything? And I did. And they interviewed me, and I ended up being selected for the position. And that was twelve years ago, in 2011. So, that's the story of how I am here.
DV: Wow, time flies.
AB: Yeah.
DV: Tell us some highlights about your twelve years in the City of Winston-Salem.
AB: Sure.
DV: I think some of the highlights could be, when it comes to Fair Housing Discrimination Commission. Remember that these complaints are supposed to be confidential, right. But I think one of the first cases I had was a massive case. It was a trailer home place. And the majority, I mean, probably 95 or 90% plus of the campus were Hispanics, for the most part Mexican. And they had a problem with the water, the way it was being billed, because they were getting their water billed monthly, not bi-monthly, like if you have your water here from the city of Winston-Salem. It's actually called Forsyth County slash Winston-Salem Utilities, something like that. Anyway, you are billed bimonthly. But in this case, you are billed, in the case of the these trailer homes, they were billed monthly. And some of the bills that they were receiving were $600, $400, even $200. And you're talking about twelve years ago. So, it was something. And they – we received – because of that issue with the water, we received something like thirty-two complaints from that place. So that was an interesting case.
DV: So, you mediated that.
AB: In some cases, there was no, nothing really there. Because in some cases, the allegation was that the white people that lived in the building were not paying water at all, and that was not the truth. They were paying water, but they were not paying as much as them. Some of them we were able to mediate, you know, they received some type of reimbursement of some kind. And some of them were causes, as we say in the business, meaning that I thought there was something there that could account for a discriminatory action. That was my very first case. Over the years, what other cases I could mention? An interesting one that I had was of a woman that said that she had a disability. And even the slightest of smells, it was too much for her to bear. She could not, I mean, there's a disability with the senses, with your sense of smell. And she said that somebody was smoking, in a non-smoking area. And she thought it was her neighbors, but there were seventeen different apartments in the building, and they were all connected. So that was a, it was very difficult to say, defend definitively. She had cameras and some people were out. Some people, she clearly saw people smoking, you know, would go in and they were smoking, they would throw-in a non-smoking area. So, that was a difficult case. But in the end, I said that I didn't think there was something there that could account for discriminatory action regarding that with them. Anyway, the interesting thing of this job is that I had to learn really everything in here and I had to learn also the history. I call it the racialized history of the United States and it's something that they don't, the United States in general don't openly broadcast, right, but that was the racialized history of the United States, how the segregation was something that happened in this country. And it was real, and it was in your face, and it was ugly. And I did not know that, you know, until I came here to study that. And it's part of the history of what we do now, right. All those, all that history, especially with housing. I had to learn that. I mean, some people that have lived here, you know, live through it, you know, and they were in segregated housing. They were in segregated schools. Even hospitals were segregated. I mean, everything was ruled truly. I mean, that was how it used to be. It is not now like that anymore. The discrimination is not in your face. It's not ugly. It's not, you know, it's not obvious. But I sometimes feel that discrimination is a little bit like, I don't know, viruses in your computer. That's what I think. Just because you haven't had an infection in two years, that doesn't mean it's never going to happen ever. You still have to keep your guard against it. And the way it happens, it can change. I always tell people that in Facebook, I had a famous case, that was two or three years ago, probably more than that, but before the pandemic. The National Fair Housing Alliance is a big, big fair housing organization in the United States based in Washington, realized that if you were an advertiser on Facebook, you could choose who could see your information, probably who could see your ads, right. So, they could choose if you liked, and I'm thinking of the actual things that happened in that case, you could choose the people that like Telemundo Deportes. You didn't want them to see your ad. You could click that and block them. In another category that they were blocking, that you could block, was those who were US veterans. If you had a house for rent, you could block them too. I don't want veterans from seeing my commercial, my ad. You have to pay, right, for every one of those restrictions, but you could, you know, laser focus, let's say, your ad. And the National Fair Housing Alliance thought that that was, that could be discriminatory, right, because if you block people that have, that have liked Telemundo Deportes, what, who do you think likes Telemundo Deportes? Somebody that probably looks like you and me, right? And they thought that was discriminatory. And of course, if you block those people that say that they are veterans of the U.S. Army, why are you doing that? I think because they don't want to see somebody that appears on a wheelchair on their property, right, or somebody that has PTSD, right. And anyway, if Facebook eventually paid the Fair Housing National Fair Housing Alliance two or three million a year, I'm sorry, two or three million dollars, perhaps five. I don't know. You can watch this online, this is not privileged information, it's public now and it's online. But this is just to say that these things, even though discrimination is not ugly in your face anymore, or in the law, it still can find ways to happen. And we have to keep ourselves, keep our guards [up] against it.
DV: In your mediatory role for the city, have you had to, have you encountered a lot of that discrimination and have you had to address it?
AB: I have never encountered somebody that acknowledges or admits to me openly, yes, I deny that housing because he's Black or because he's Hispanic. Every time, in every single one of my investigations that I have entered, they say, “no, I'm not a racist. I'm not, no, this is awful. This is terrible. This is a mistake. And I'm the victim.” I've never had ever in twelve years, nobody has admitted to me, yes, I did it because I don't want, and you put in the blank. I don't want Black people in my property, or I don't want Hispanics in my property. I don't want Asians in my property, or I don't want people that use wheelchairs in my property. No one has ever said that to me, if that's what you're wondering. So, you have to dig, you really have to investigate, and you have to try to find that evidence that you need if you want to close the case, right. And of course, if you cannot find any evidence, you're going to say, sorry, I have had some cases, especially with Hispanics, it's interesting being how our people that belong to our culture, for the most part, they say, nah, no, don't get me involved, I don't want, no, no, I'm not going to participate. Some witnesses, I think at least I had two cases in the past where I thought this was leaning towards a discriminatory action, but the witnesses were like, no, I'm not going to do it, I'm sorry. I’m not going to court. I don't know, I'm, I mean, that's sometimes the attitude that I find from Hispanics. They don't, just don't want to do it, even if they have documents already. Sometimes, I think in one case, this lady was a citizen, but it's the same thing. I mean, look, I just got my citizenship. I really don't want to mess with this. I'm sorry, I mean, and the other lady was a legal resident, and she told me, this was two different cases, of course, and she told me something like, look, I'm going to ask my husband, let's see what you think, and I'll get back in touch with you.
DV: Do you think there's some distrust of power structures, local governments that kind of prevents folks from wanting to come forward?
AB: I don't know. That is always like a, I think it's a stereotype. I think the reality, or the reason is more complicated than that. But I think in general, if you're a foreigner and Hispanic, that's probably what you're going to choose to do. Look, I'm sorry, thank you, no. But if you were born here in the United States, I think those are the Hispanics that have, they don't have that fear whatsoever. They are more willing to engage in activism, I think. It's not, this is also a stereotype, right I’m pretty sure there are some foreigners and probably some undocumented individuals that are really active and they will go where trouble is and will try to, you know, do their best to address what they believe is an unjust situation. But I think in my experience, that is how you can tell, right, if they're a foreigner, if they were born outside the United States and are here working, even if they have documents, they're going to say, no, thank you, but no. I'll find ways, or we'll find ways to deal with this, but no. But it's different if, with the children that are already born here. They are the ones, I think, that are already active, that embrace activism because they don't have that fear of, they're going to kick me out, right. I think that is, I could summarize my experience that way.
DV: Okay. Are there any other experiences you want to share?
AB: I think those are the ones with mediation cases that also we could go on, you know, in twelve years.
DV: So, what were some challenges that you felt like followed you or you had to navigate through? Were there any large challenges that you had to overcome?
AB: Probably the challenges have been, first, since we did not grow up with this system, we have to learn the system, how it works. In our countries, I don't think there are housing authorities, for instance, right, where people receive vouchers to pay for rent. That's something that's an American thing almost completely, right. So, that was where I had to learn that, and I had to navigate that thing. And I mean, and even the discrimination part, I mean, I'm pretty sure in our countries, there are no discrimination laws like the ones that we have here in the United States. So, it's, the challenge has always been the system, learning the system and learning how the system works because you cannot rely on your experience, and you cannot rely on your memory of how it was when you were growing up. You don't have that, so you have to-- that's one of the challenges that I have. And another challenge, of course, is the language. Sometimes people, even to this day, will claim or complain that they can't really understand me. They were like, what? What do you say? Can you please repeat that to me? Speak louder or slower because I can't understand what you're saying. It doesn't happen often, but still happens and that is frustrating when people tell you that. I'm going to tell you also two experiences. There was one time when I was, I mean I just grabbed the phone, and I said my name and my position because that's what you're supposed to do when you pick up the phone. And this woman said, the first thing she said is, can I talk to an American? Like that. And another time it was an individual, it was a guy that said, I don't know why the City of Winston-Salem hires people that can't speak English. And, wow, he hangs up the phone on me.
DV: Wow.
AB: Yeah, so that's another challenge. The language can be challenging, even though I feel like now, I think I feel like I'm okay and I can understand them. Even when you find people that have this very thick Southern accent, that could be, that used to be such a challenge, just try to understand them. But now it's okay. I think I'm much better than that. And in reality, since I have not lived in any other part of the United States, it's not a challenge either because that's the various accented English that I hear is the southern accent. And, you know, you're much, much more used to hear it now than after all these years.
DV: Okay. Now, back on those challenges, how did you square them away in your head? How do you think about them? You navigated through, I would say, some discrimination for your accent. So did you just say, okay, we just move on? Or did you address that in any other way.
AB: There's no-- it's part of the things that you have to brush off. You cannot hang on to it and you cannot, you know, stay with it. I mean, it is really no point, and it could be toxic. So, it's okay. I mean, it's water under the bridge, as they say here, it came and go, and you keep on going. There is no way you will find perhaps those attitudes every now and then, but for the most part I think, I really believe the United States is a very progressive nation in that sense and of course we cannot say every single American is that way. There's not such thing, right, but I think the United States is, like in many other fields, is at the forefront of these social issues. It's not perfect. Probably it will never be perfect. But they are trying, and that's what you trying to keep all these things in perspective. A few individuals will challenge your notions of what I just told you, right. And they're going to be backwards and they're going to be ignorant in many ways. But you cannot really, the totality of the actions of the United States of America leads you to think into a different direction, even though it is not uniform, and it is not equal. Progress, it will never be equal and uniform for every single one of the individuals, right. But we just have to keep chugging at it. In various circles, I have said this, in 1538, something like that, there was a Spanish bishop that wrote a letter saying that the natives of the Americas were slaves, in a way, in so much way, a natura. That's the expression he wrote. I mean, so they are there for the taking, right. The natives are there for us, just like the plants and just like the animals are in the land. They were just part of the same possibility. Now, fast forward that three hundred years and we have the Civil War in the United States, right. And then one hundred years after that, we still, we get the, in 1968, the Fair Housing Act, three years before in 1965, the Voting Rights Act. So, what I always say to people is, I mean, why, I mean, this is a train that has been going on like this for four hundred years. What makes you think that it's going to completely stop and we're going to dismantle this in fifty. I mean this is something that's going to take probably centuries probably our grandchildren will start seeing the fruits of this labor it's not going to stop in a generation or two this is something that is ingrained in our psyches and so that's the perspective that I try to tell people. Some people say no this is never going to change. And I'm like well perhaps it's not going to change in our lifetimes, but this will change eventually. Somebody else said well we're probably going to have, we will need an exogenous event to make us, yeah, probably the rise of the machines is going to make us, you know, a terminator type of event that will tell, yeah, let's unite. I don't care, yeah, you're Muslim, you're Black, I don't care, look at, what the machines are doing to us. I hope we never see that world, right. It will be apocalyptic. But I tend to think that that vision is probably right. There's going to be an exogenous event that will make us see the foolishness of this separation of humanity, right, of this categorization of humanity into level of worthiness based on your external appearance. There was probably a time when that was perhaps necessary, but we eventually, it is all going to be superfluous, is going to be unnecessary, is going to be ridiculous, right. Eventually, I think it's going to be like that. I don't think it's going to happen in the next 50 years, but it will happen. I firmly believe that.
DV: With that positive thoughts, not the rise of the machines part [laughter], with those positive thoughts and bringing it back to your experience, what would you say were some factors that have helped you along the way in your life and career?
AB: But it is true that if you have a work ethic, a hard work ethic, the results will be there. And I think that is the basis and foundation for everything you do. I've always said that yes, sometimes relationships are important or matter, but they only matter if you have something to show. And if you have results, to back it up, it's easier to have someone to vouch for you and to make a recommendation. I always think that it starts with you and the work that you do and your perspective. And you have to take responsibility of your actions for everything you cannot be blaming other people for what happens to you maybe it is the truth that in some cases other people may be to blame for one or two events in your life, but in general you need to take control, I hope I am answering your question that is my philosophy, my, I mean, it starts like that. Sadly, I'm seeing some people, you know, online and on social media that says that it is a lie, that if you work hard, you're never going to get anywhere because everything is already decided by the elites and the white people of this nation or something like that. And I truly and completely disagree with that. You need to work hard. And if you do, positive results will take place in your life, even if those positive results are not the ones that you imagined in the first place or of a lesser magnitude that you were expecting, but they will happen. I mean, and if you have, I think that philosophy is actually dangerous. The thing that, no, it doesn't matter what, how much you do, you're never going to get out of your bog or your, whatever situation is that you're in. I think it's a dangerous attitude and anyway, that's what I think. I hope I have answered your question.
DV: Yeah. Thank you. Well, to conclude, what do you hope for the future? Be it for your own personal life or professional life or for your community?
AB: In my personal life, I hope I still have a job in twenty years. Hopefully it's going to be--.
DV: Before the machines take your job right.
AB: Yeah, either this job or a better paid job than the one that I have. I hope there's still a social security net by the time I retire. I certainly hope that. About the community, I think eventually the community will grow. Here in North Carolina, there are already a lot of Hispanics that were born in this land. And they will come to be, you know, leaders in their own community. And not only in the Hispanic community, but they will be leaders, period, of all the community. I think that's going to happen. And I hope that at some point when we think about Hispanics, we don't think it under that slant of poverty and disadvantage and disenfranchisement. And when we think of Hispanics, we're going to be a true engine of the society. We will not need, you know, society's pity to get along. Not to get along, to move along, I hope that eventually that's how it's going to be. And we will not need intermediaries, right, to reach the society as a whole. We will not need a spokesperson or somebody that speaks for us. And we will be able to, you know, to just be just like every other community here that doesn't need special dispensations to, I think that's how eventually it's going to be. Because I think most of what we are here to do is working, right? And that's what we came here for, to work and to build a solid and stable future for our children and our families in general. And eventually, I think it will happen, and we will come to be very mature, like in other parts of the United States, right. In Florida and in California and Texas, where there is no more any dissonance, right. It's not either Hispanic or American, you know, and you can be, you will be able to be American even though you're Hispanic and there will not be this bifurcated perception of you eventually that will come to pass and that will, and it will be naturally embraced by society as a whole, I think, and I hope that's what the future will bring to us all.
DV: Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts and your experiences with us, Adolfo.
AB: Sure, absolutely, my pleasure. I hope it is my contribution to this wonderful project that you guys are doing.
DV: Thank you, and see you next time.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Transcribers: Sofia Godoy & Daniel Velásquez
Interview Date: 2023 May 26
Date of Transcription: 2023 August 7 / Revisions: 2023 October 19
Dublin Core
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Title
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R-1006 -- Briceño, Adolfo.
Description
An account of the resource
Adolfo Briceño is Program Manager of Human Relations and Diversity, Equity and Inclusion at the City of Winston-Salem. He shares his early life experience in Mérida, Mexico, where he was born and educated. Having studied economics, he grew disillusioned with the field while working as a mortgage analyst at a Cancún bank and switched careers to become a journalist for El Diario de Yucatán. During his tenure there, Adolfo was approached with a job opportunity by Qué Pasa, a North Carolina-based newsletter serving the state’s Spanish-speaking community. After five years at Qué Pasa, he again switched careers to work in fair housing investigation and landlord-tenant mediation for the City of Winston-Salem. Though his duties have expanded, he still works in this role today. Adolfo shares several stories from his time as a journalist, including his coverage of deportation, and imparts his thoughts on discrimination in the US drawn from his experiences in local government.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
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No restrictions. Open to research
Date
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2023-05-26
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29334">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
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R1006_Audio.mp3
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/e07132899781f8c03e298fcecdd43187.mp3
81ff0c20465b58ef98cd2b418464e640
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/fec4832f9bfef8cc8c1f6ee576f19cf8.pdf
0ca4005ae68bf01afef02db8ab104541
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0996
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
Fecha
2022-04-20
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Romero, Gianella.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Educators
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
1994
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Los Angeles -- California -- United States
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Hickory -- Catawba County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
POINT(-118.242766 34.0536909),1994,1;POINT(-81.2165 35.7313),2022,2
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Carlton, Marisa.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Gianella Romero is the current Executive Director at El Centro Latino in Hickory, North Carolina. She begins the interview by talking about herself, her family roots, and her journey from being in the healthcare field to transitioning into her current role as Executive Director in the non-profit sector. Gianella also discusses her Mexican-American identity and her experience growing up in Catawba County. She shares what the K-12 education system was like for her as someone with Latin American roots and recounts the struggles she faced in a predominantly white elementary school. She explains what it was like navigating higher education and the workplace, and figuring out her career path, sharing the lack of direction she often times experienced. Gianella speaks in depth about starting off in the healthcare industry, the challenges she experienced during the COVID-19 pandemic, and her career shift into the non-profit industry. She closes the interview by speaking on the resources being provided by El Centro Latino, the programs and services she and her team are currently working on, and the challenges that many of the Spanish-speaking community members in Catawba County are facing.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Gianella Romero by Marisa Carlton, 20 April 2022, R-0996, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29173
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Community and social service programs; Healthcare; Identity; K12 education; Labor and employment
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Marisa Carlton: Ok. My name is Marisa Carlton. Today is April 20, 2022. I’m here with Gianella Romero. She is the Executive Director at El Centro Hispano [Latino] here in Hickory, North Carolina. Gianella, thank you for, you know, doing this interview with me and let’s get started. So, first I just want to ask, [00:28] tell me a little about yourself. I don’t know a lot about you. So, tell me a little bit about yourself and about your family roots and where you’re from, where you were born.
Gianella Romero: Yeah, absolutely. So, I’m Gianella. I go by Ginny. So, I introduce myself to different people differently but I need to work on that. So, my parents are both Mexican. They migrated to California. That’s where they had my oldest sister and me. I was only a month old when they moved over to North Carolina. My dad came first and then my mom followed after. I was raised in Hickory-slash-Newton, North Carolina. So, I mean this is home. This is my native town. I grew up here. I went to school in Winston Salem. I went to Winston Salem State University. Go Rams! [laughs] So, I’m a Ram. I went there. I got, then, you know, graduated. Stayed there a little bit, decided to start looking at grad school. My undergrad degree was actually in exercise physiology. So, I swore up and down I was going to be an athletic trainer. I thought I was going to be an exercise physiologist at a hospital. I, you know, didn’t really have a clear path to what I wanted to do. So, then I ended up getting into grad school. I was between UNC Greensboro and Lenoir Rhyne University for their athletic training program. I ended up--Lenoir Rhyne just made more sense. My mom was here. I could save some money living with her. So, I was just, it just made sense for me to come home. I was like, you know family is the most important thing. My sister had already moved back home. And this is, you know, it’s home. That’s part of our Latin American roots I think that we still hold dear to us, it’s just-- the culture. We tend to stay close to family, you know? I tried moving away and it wasn’t for me. So, I ended up coming back, did a semester at Lenoir Rhyne and decided I absolutely did not want to be an athletic trainer. I felt miserable. It was just not for me. I felt so crushed. I just didn’t know what was next. I ended up getting an entry level job at Frye Regional, the local hospital and it was an outpatient facility. Checking people in. Insurance verification. Still on the medical side because I was like, ok I still want to stay in, you know, healthcare. I ended up meeting a couple guys who were doing the MBA program at Lenoir Rhyne University and they pretty much-- I didn’t know that was an option. I didn’t know I could do the Masters in Business Administration with an undergrad degree that didn’t have to do with business. So, you know, learning through them and just kind of asking them questions. They hyped me up essentially. They’re like, no you can do it! You can get your MBA, get a healthcare concentration. You know, it’ll be worth it. I am so grateful for those guys. They’re amazing. They’re back home. They’re in Georgia but, you know, they influenced me to get my MBA, to pursue that. I got into my MBA program not really sure where I was going with it. I ended up in one of the classes my last semester there. It was with Michael Blackburn. He, essentially the class was, he took us to meet with other--it was a leadership class. He took us to meet other CEOs, meet nonprofit executive directors, and that’s when I learned, I want to be a CEO. I want to be an executive director, and then I didn’t know what kind of director I wanted to be. I didn’t know what kind of leadership I wanted to do. And that’s when I met the CCM, the Cooperative Christian Ministry executive director at the time. And I was just amazed at her, her leadership, what the mission, what their goals were, what her goals were as an individual for the organization. And I think that when they kind of just, I wanted to be in nonprofit. At that time, I had transitioned from that entry level job to business office position in senior healthcare. So, still healthcare. It was a long-term care facility here in Hickory. They gave me my first opportunity, you know, it was a salary job. I was so excited. Super grateful. So that’s kind of where my career stemmed off while I was in the MBA course. I kind of just started growing within my career in senior healthcare. I ended up graduating with my MBA, you know, I was like, what’s next? My employer at the time allowed me to take the AIT program within the company which is just Administrator in Training. I got licensed to be a nursing home administrator for the state of North Carolina. So, I am licensed! I can run a nursing home, any long-term care facility in North Carolina. I did that for a little bit. You know, I became an Executive Director for a sister facility in Taylorsville and then I realized I want to do--I want to have a bigger impact. I want to support these seniors in any and every way that I can and it starts from the top. So, after I got that license I, you know, kind of reached out to my boss. I asked her you know, what else is there for me? And I started traveling, going to different facilities. Just kind of implementing the company, state regulations. Making sure that the facilities, the communities were in compliance and if they weren’t I had to, essentially turn it around. So that’s kind of where my career was and then, throughout this entire journey, the pandemic happened and I was working seven days a week and I was working eighteen-hour days. I feel like, I can blame a little bit, the pandemic. I got a little burnt out. So, around the end of last year I started searching and I knew that I wanted to get into something that still meant, you know, still had meaning behind it. I wanted to make a difference in people’s lives. It didn’t have to-- I never believed that I can change the world but I believed that I could change at least one person’s world in a positive way. So, around November of last year, of 2021 is when I kind of just started looking at which direction I could go. I felt like I had so many options yet it was so limited [laughs]. I didn’t know. I wasn’t really sure. I’ve had some really great people in my personal life, my career, they’ve guided me, they’ve shown me that there is so many more options than just what I thought. I grew up thinking, I just wasn’t sure what I was going to do. My parents came to this country. They wanted my sisters and I to have a better future. They wanted us to do better than they did. So, to me, I was like, if I can be a bank teller, a banker--I was very limited to what I knew career-wise I could do. I didn’t know only based off what I can see here and that was just being a teacher, being a banker, being a teller. And I just never really knew. Other kids would be like, I want to be a doctor! I want to be a scientist! I wasn’t sure that that was realistic for me, you know? I remember classmates saying, I want to be the director, the CEO. I had no idea what that meant. [laughs] It wasn’t until my later days in life, when I was already in my career, that I learned that yeah, there’s a lot more for me that I can do. And then Centro Latino, I learned through somebody that I know that they were searching for an Executive Director. I looked at the job description, the qualifications and I said, I meet all of those. And then I kind of just had to sit back and question. I didn’t apply right away cause I was like, would I be good for this role? Am I fit for this? Am I qualified, even though I checked all the boxes? I had to kind of sit back and question, like, I would be leaving the healthcare industry all together. And it’s just different. It’s just different in many ways. It’s similar, but different. And so, I just wasn’t sure that I was a good fit for it. I started talking to my fiancé’s mom who’s very involved in the community. She’s very giving and very loving, and she’s very--she’s a great Christ-like person and I love her and I want to be like her. [laughs] So I started talking to her. I was hesitant because I wasn’t sure, you know? She has experience with this stuff and I didn’t have anybody to fall back on in this area of my career. So then, I just went ahead and submitted my resume, my cover letter, my references and like I said, I felt like I had everything. Till’ this day, I am very capable to do this job. I’m very confident in myself, but there’s those days that I have the imposter syndrome. That I’m like, what am I doing? Who do I think I am doing this? You know what I mean? So, it’s been a journey. It’s been a very long, great, beautiful, stressful, tearful, amazing journey. It’s been great. It’s been amazing.
MC: Yeah! That, I mean, that’s incredible. Just hearing the way that you got to where you are now, it’s really incredible. You touched on a lot of really great things that I want to kind of go back on and talk about. I guess we can start with, tell me a little bit more about your parents. You said that they’re from Mexico. [10:20] Tell me a little bit more about those roots and your family and maybe why they chose to move to the US.
GR: Yeah. Absolutely. So, both of my parents are from el Estado de Mexico. People confuse it with Mexico City. It’s el Estado de Mexico. It’s-- they’re very close to Guerrero. We have the tierra caliente roots. Grew up listening to tierra caliente, banda, grupos, all that. Very Mexican [laughs]. Very proud. No, so they’re both from there. My dad, he was a teenager when he first crossed the border. He’s been in the US longer than he’s been in his home country. My mom also she was trying to get into nursing but she unfortunately, due to poverty and just the lack of resources, she wasn’t able to fulfill that dream of hers. So, ultimately, you know, she had her journey, her life but ultimately decided to move to the US in search of that American Dream. I think it was my aunt’s husband had crossed the border, and she realized that was an option. She wanted to follow it. Both of my parents had the idea that they’d eventually go back home. Just save a little money and then we’ll head back home but luckily my dad was in the country when they did the amnesty. So, he was able to get his green card, and through marriage back when it was easier to get a green card through marriage, my mom was able…‘cause they met in California, got married, had my older sister. Then, a couple of years later, I came in the picture. My mom and dad decided, you know, a lot of things were happening in California at the time, in Los Angeles to be specific. The gangs, the violence, the lack of opportunities. It just--my parents knew that they wanted--they always knew they wanted more. I don’t know if they knew exactly what that “more” was, but they knew they wanted more and at that time they had my older sister and they had me and they knew it was time to get out of California. So, my dad had a plan to stop in North Carolina, stop in a couple other states and eventually end up in Florida, ‘cause he knew people from back home from Mexico who moved to these states. So, ultimately, he ended up coming here, fell in love. He tells me how Hickory, it was so green, like Spring’s Row. There was only trees. There was no stores. There was like, practically no Latinos, no Mexicans, no Hispanic people. You could count them with the fingers on your hands. We always drive by on Startown Road because they eventually ended up moving to Newton which is essentially where I ended up growing up. I went to Startown Elementary School. I was the third brown kid in my class.
MC: Wow.
GR: One was a biracial girl. She was black and white. Another girl, she was Hispanic descent but didn’t really speak Spanish. So, I like to consider myself the only Hispanic kid in my grade at that time. It was very different. But yeah, my parents they decided well, it was just time to move to Hickory, North Carolina and plant their roots, and eventually my younger sister was born here and she was raised in Hickory. Yeah, I mean, it’s been a journey. I don’t know how much detail you want from my parents’ life. They had a pretty rough life. My dad, he, you know, I just can’t imagine the trauma. The, you know, there’s stuff that we’re just now, as a society, starting to talk about. But, you know, it’s easy for us first gens who are exposed to certain stuff that our parents just weren’t. Like health care, mental health, that stuff. Even physical health, you know? Just eating healthy in general just hasn’t been a topic for at least our parents for the longest time. I think now it is. My mom’s super, she tries the green juices, let’s eat less red meat, no pork. But, you know, again, those aren’t things that they were exposed to in Mexico. It’s something they were exposed to here in the USA. So, it’s been a journey. [laughs]
MC: Do you remember what year it was that you moved here? Or--
GR: To North Carolina? It was in 1994.
MC: Ok and you were five years old?
GR: No, I was only a month old. [laughs]
MC: Oh, ok! So, you were a baby?
GR: Yeah! California was just my birthplace. I was born in Los Angeles California but I can’t claim the culture, you know? California has its own LA culture. I can’t claim any of it.
MC: Yeah.
GR: I was raised in Hickory. [laughs]
MC: Well, let’s touch on that a little bit. What was that like for you? You mentioned being one of three people of color growing up here and this is maybe back when Catawba County didn’t have a large Latino population yet. I know now it’s--
GR: --it’s grown! --
MC: --growing.
GR: Yeah! Absolutely.
MC: So, tell me about, you know, that experience for you. [15:34] What was that like being one of the only few Latino people growing up maybe in the education system in schools? Did you feel accepted by your peers? What was that like for you?
GR: It was definitely--[knock on door]
MC: We can pause.
GR: Ok.
MC: Yeah.
GR: Sorry.
MC: That’s ok.
[00:16:00] [Pauses recording for about 3 minutes]
[00:16:01] [Resumes recording]
GR: Ok, so, being one of the three people of color, and I remember this was in kindergarten and obviously it got better. I think I was in third grade when I realized I wasn’t the only one--no. Might’ve been second grade. A girl from our church moved to Newton and she ended up being one of the students. By third grade there was a handful of Latino, Hispanic people. More people of color. So, I think this was back in the early 2000s when I was in elementary school. It was definitely a culture shock for me because I did start my kindergarten school year at Oakwood Elementary near Downtown Hickory and that class, I hardly ever spoke English. I was in there my cousins. I was in there with my, you know, neighborhood kids, everybody who grew up in that same apartment complex was going there. So, you know, it felt like home. I was just spending the day with, you know, with my neighbors, with my friends. And then halfway through the year we ended up moving to Newton. That’s when I started at a different school, predominantly white. I didn’t speak for about a week. I remember just not--I don’t remember clearly. I can’t claim to remember, but it’s just one of the memories that did stick with me was me not wanting to talk to anybody there. I didn’t want to. I didn’t feel comfortable. I didn’t want to talk to them. The teachers talked to me like I was slow. They didn’t know I spoke English. [laughs] So, I remember one day, I think it was like a week or two after I had already been attending school there, they kind of just let me be. I would mind my own business and kind of--yeah. I don’t remember clearly how I was interacting with anyone or not but I do remember that she started going through my bookbag and was pulling out my planner and then that’s when I spoke to her for the first time. And she was like oh! You do speak English! She was just so shocked. And I looked at her and was like, yeah! I do! And then after that I remember I could not stand her. [laughs] I was a sassy little kid. But then you know, my parents talked to me. They’re like no, you have to understand they don’t know. You know, you’re probably the only one there but, you know? They weren’t sure what it looked like. They knew it was predominantly white cause obviously they signed us up for the school but they just wanted better for us. So, they were just, it’s ok. She’ll learn. You’ll learn and I was like ok. Let that go, you know. It was fine. I got over it. [laughs] And then I think relatively I had a pretty quote unquote “normal” childhood. I always had friends. I never felt hated or discriminated against, and if I was being discriminated against, I just didn’t notice it. I think it wasn’t until I hit middle school when that kind of really became a thing. The Latinos wanted to hang out with the Latinos. The black and the black. The Hmong and the Hmong. And you know, the whites with the whites. But I think, you know, I don’t know. Maybe I was just lucky and blessed that my group of friends was always very diverse. I always had a diverse group of friends. I always had-- I don’t know. I felt like that was going to be the norm. Going into middle school and everyone’s divided, ‘cause that’s what it looked like from an elementary school kid going into middle school. I was like, oh my gosh I don’t think I’m ready for that. But it ended up not being like that at all. It was very…I’ve always personally felt included and I don’t know if that’s just my personality…It could be a bunch of factors that factor in and make that difference. But there’s always that-- where are you from? You know? In high school I went to Challenger Early College High School. That was something in itself, too. [Laughs] My journey has been--I don’t know, it sounds crazy. I don’t know if its special or anything, but going to Challenger Early College High School I feel like I remember thinking, I’m going to graduate. I’m going to have my Associates degree. I don’t need anything else. I’m fine. I will get a job and I’ll be happy. But I think it was in high school when I realized that I want more than just that. Throughout my journey there, I was like, I want more. I don’t think that that’s it for me. I knew that that wasn’t it. You know, I kept telling myself that, you know, no after high school I’m done. I’m going to have my Associates degree. I don’t need to do anything else. I’ll join the military or do something. And I was like, I’ll be fine. And then as time got closer for me to start looking for colleges, I had no direct, clear path at all. I didn’t know. Everybody else is applying for colleges. They’re talking about our resumes, our community service hours. You gotta do this. You gotta do that to graduate. And, you know, I appreciate Challenger now. It’s definitely shaped me into the person that I am, but I didn’t know that at the time. I was just--this is it for me. I don’t know. Because, you know, I think that’s where the conversation of where representation matters. I didn’t see people who looked like me doing anything else other than, every now and then you’d see a teacher. You’d see a banker, you’d go to the grocery store and there’s a manager, but I guess I wasn’t exposed to it to the degree that other people knew that they wanted to pursue law. They wanted to pursue, you know, bioengineering. All these things that I just didn’t know anything about and I just felt like I was cruising through life just kind of, whatever happens, happens, you know?
MC: Yeah.
GR: And I just remember my parents always telling me--I could just hear them still in my ears. It’s very clear. My dad like, tu puedes. Tu puedes. He’d call me flaca. Like, tu puedes flaca. Or my mom, Gianelita. She’d be like, whatever you want to do. But then I had a counselor in high school. She was, like, you have to apply to at least-- I don’t remember how many schools she told me I had to apply to before I wasn’t going to be allowed to graduate. And I was like, ok, fine. Cause I didn’t have any plans on applying to any school. I was like that’s not for me. What am I going to do there? I’m just just another-- I hate to say it this way, but this was my mentality. I’m just another brown kid. What am I going to go do there? I just didn’t feel like that was something for me. But I always grew up hearing my dad and my mom telling me, you’re going to go to college. You’re going to do better than us. You’re going to have a better future. You’re going to do better because we couldn’t do better. And so, I just kind of knew I had to go to college, but I didn’t know how to do that. And when I was in high school that counselor was like, you won’t graduate until you apply to x amount of schools. I applied. I got accepted. And I was like, oh! Cool! I didn’t think I’d get accepted. So, I’m like, the fact that I got accepted in the first place was just amazing. I was like, woah! Maybe this is something I could do. And then I ended up, you know, weighing my options. Touring different schools. I didn’t really know what I was touring for because I didn’t know. I just knew that’s what my classmates were doing. So, I was like, well, let me go tour them! Why am I going to go somewhere I’ve never been? And I ended up getting accepted to Winston Salem State University and I just-- that was it. I went to visit that school. You know, it’s a historical black college university and I was, this is it. This is where I belong. I don’t need to go anywhere else. Yeah, and just, you know, a lot of factors went into it. It was, you know, financially it just made more sense. Culturally, I felt like I just-- I don’t know. I don’t want it to sound bad but I felt like being a minority within a minority was better than being a minority within the PWI. Personally. Just me. And I ended up loving my experience there. The confidence I gained. The knowledge. The just--everything was just amazing. Like, to me, I kind of wish I wouldn’t have done the early college so I would have been able to do it for four years because I graduated in two and a half years. So, I wish I would’ve been there longer for sure, but I don’t regret anything. It’s been incredible. It’s been an incredible journey. Going to Winston Salem State has literally shaped me into the leader I am today, ‘cause their biggest model was depart to serve.
MC: Right.
GR: And I think that kind of just-- you hear it enough it becomes part of, you know, subconsciously or consciously. I chose to embrace it. They told us depart to serve. I wanted to do that. I wanted to serve. I ended up choosing my major literally because I didn’t know what to choose. I went in as a junior, so I’m like 19 years old and I have to choose my major. And I was like, I don’t know! Because I had already done all my gen ed classes with Challenger, so I went in as a junior and I was like, I don’t know what I want to do. I didn’t think I’d get this far. So, then at the time I was really into fitness. Like, all that stuff. And I ended up choosing exercise physiology because I like science. I like exercise. And what better combination than that? I didn’t know what I was going to do with it. And then eventually, you know, taking the classes, learning career options, I was like yeah. I’m going to do that. I’m going to be an exercise physiologist. Nope. I changed my mind. I’m going to be an athletic trainer. Nope. I changed my mind. I’m going to do physical therapy. I kept changing my mind so much but then eventually when time came that I had to decide what I wanted to do and that’s kind of how, you know, I said earlier I ended up doing an internship at Wake Forest Baptist. I got accepted to Lenoir Rhyne. It was between Lenoir Rhyne and UNC Greensboro. I chose LRU. Came back home, did a semester, hated it. I think God puts us in the places where we belong. I think everything happens for a reason. Because I always knew I wanted more. I just didn’t know what that “more” was. And I like to feel fulfilled. I don’t want my job to be a job. I want it to be a passion. So, when I got into the health care field, you know, I eventually ended up in the senior care. I absolutely loved it. And then, again, the pandemic kind of caused some burnout., some stress, and all that stuff. So I felt like I wasn’t loving it anymore. I think it’s just time to transition into something, and then I feel like maybe one day I could go back into the health care field. I want to keep my license active. I just don’t want to close that door, But for the time being I am absolutely loving being the Executive Director. I think, like I said, I think God put me in this position for a reason. All those obstacle courses I had to go through, and not knowing, and knowing that I wanted more but not sure how to do it. I think that’s one of my main goals here is to help guide the Latino students. Because we have the AP Program. The Abriendo Puertas Program that translates to opening doors. Right now, it’s only focused on K through 5. We’re just starting to--we’re making plans to expand into the middle school and the high school. And I think that’s where…I think it all matters, you know? All of it matters. I think kids need to be exposed to women in leadership roles. They need to be exposed to people of color in leadership roles. They need to be exposed to women who are people of color in leadership roles, you know? And not just in leadership roles. As business owners, as small businesses, big businesses, real estate. Whatever it is that they just I think students of all ages need to be exposed to this. And I think I can help do that. I don’t like to toot my own horn but I think that I can make a difference in at least one or two people in the community, and hopefully its more than that, but I think, that’s my mindset. I’m like, if I can at least help one or two people I think that’s great. Obviously, the goal is to help as many as we can, but just, you know, I think just personally I take pride in that. I take pride in being able to give people information, knowledge. I was in healthcare, so I made an impact whenever the vaccines rolled out. People didn’t want to get it. There was a lot of misinformation out. I got the vaccine and shared my knowledge, the science behind it and you know, people in the community looked up to me for that because I knew the science. They considered me a reliable source. So, then I got the vaccine. Some people followed. Some people chose not to, and I said that’s totally your decision. It’s something that you can decide for yourself, but here at the facts. And I think that, being in this position now, you know, a year later after all that’s happened, it’s kind of shown that I can make a difference. I can influence people in a positive way, never fooling anyone into believing something. Never, whatever my personal beliefs are, I’m never going to shove them down somebody else. “You have to believe this because this is the right”-- it’s freedom, just have all the facts and then you decide. You choose what you want to know, what you want to believe. So, ultimately, I think that’s just kind of…I feel like I’m here for a reason and hopefully I can fulfill that reason. [Laughs]
MC: Yeah. I think you touched on really important things, like representation, and when you talked about navigating that education system and going into college. I know, you touched on a lot of things that I resonate with as well because I was first a generation student going to college and I really didn’t have any guidance going through that process. I didn’t know everything that was available and it seems that you kind of went through that as well. It seems like it was just, a lot of it was just trying to figure that out yourself. And I think that representation is really important.
GR: Yes.
[31:01] MC: Now, I want to talk about maybe how your, maybe just experiences being Mexican-American, how that ties into your current role now? You know, how does that help you in your position now?
GR: I think it helps in a lot of ways because, you know, we have that first gen experience. We essentially, we are the community. We are the target community that Centro Latino is trying to target. I benefited from Centro Latino when I was a kid. My parents came. They did the parenting classes that they were offering at the time because my older sister was getting ready to go--she was in middle school. I was two years behind her so they were like, ok. These are waters we’ve never navigated. We need help. My older sister I guess was getting rebellious. They didn’t know what to do. So they sought out help and Centro Latino was here to help. And just being somebody who can say I benefitted from the services here I think really makes an impact, and I feel like it’s just knowing-- I don’t represent all Latinos. But I can be a good representation, I guess is what I’m trying to say. I can be a good representation of Latinos, but I’m not the only representation. I don’t represent everybody, but I think it’s a really good place to start, because how is your target population going to be Hispanic Latinos but then you don’t know first-hand experiences? You know, the fear of being first gen, the fear of being an immigrant in this country. Both of my parents thankfully, we’re very grateful for the fact that they’re both US citizens, but they don’t get treated that way. You know what I mean? People see and assume that they’re illegal. They see me and automatically think, you know, where are you from? And I’m like, from Hickory. No, where are you really from? I’m from Hickory! No, where are you really from? From Hickory; where are you from? And like that’s when I kind of just, ok I’m turning it around on you. Where are you from? [Laughs] So, I think I understand those challenges. I understand the struggles. I consider myself a privileged, quote unquote privileged person because there is things that I do know that some people in our community may not know. And I know it sounds crazy to say it that way but I consider that a privilege. You know, there’s certain resources that I know, you know. There’s certain stuff in the health care field like, you know, people don’t know how to go and defend themselves or, you know, defend their child or defend their loved one who’s ill because it’s happened. I don’t know about you but it’s happened to me where it’s my symptoms were dismissed. And then you know, I insist and I insist, and I feel privileged that I can communicate, that I can-- I know most of my rights. I don’t claim to know everything, but I know, well, ok, if you can’t help me then I will find someone who can. I know how to speak up, but that’s something that a lot of our family members, our friends, cannot do. So, I think just knowing that and experiencing that first-hand allows me to be able to turn around and say ok, what are the services that we can provide? What are the programs that we can create? Or, who should we partner up with in the community who offers these great solutions and help. They offer assistance. Whatever it is that people need, they may have something that we don\’t, but how can we partner up with them so that we can offer them this assistance? These services? With them feeling comfortable. With them feeling safe. With them being able to communicate. So that’s, I feel like that helps a lot. Being able to understand the struggles. The intimidation, just being a minority in general in this country can… I don’t want to make it sound like it’s a negative thing, because it’s not. It’s a beautiful thing! It’s just what the past few years it’s become more of a struggle. I thought we were past it; you know? So, [laughs] it’s a little devastating to see how you know, 180 the country kind of did. You know, the past few years, but I feel like there’s definitely so many more people open to hearing the Latino, Hispanic… understanding the culture. Understanding the differences. And I’m like, one of the things that I say a lot is that we’re all human. We’re all more similar than we are different. The only thing is that God gave us these languages and He gave us different skin tones. But we’re more alike than we are different. It’s exciting as the new Executive Director here to see people welcoming, being so welcoming to me. Being so ready to partner up and to… how can we work together? You know? I know you offer these services we offer these; how can we make this work? And I think that just makes me very excited about the fact that our community is ready. They may not know they’re ready--its going to be hit or miss some places. But for the most part, I think people are wanting to start to listen. They’re starting to want to understand, and I think that’s very important and we have to be very willing to listen and to speak, and be honest. I’m like, this is my truth. I can’t hide it, you know? I’m not going to sit here and pretend that it was an easy journey and that because I speak English, it was easier. I’m not going to sit here and say I had a great a teacher who influenced me, because I didn’t get any of that. I didn’t see people who looked like me doing things like this, but I knew I wanted to be that. I wasn’t sure how because I wasn’t exposed to it until I was in grad school, essentially. And then being exposed to the boss who gave me that first business office position. She was a person of color. She was black, and she treated me like anybody else, but to me it meant something to have a person of color who was in a leadership role. I think it made me realize, I want to be a leader. I want to be a boss. I want to make a difference in people’s lives. I can do it too. So, I think most of my influence and…yeah, I guess you can call them my influence. My direction kind of became clearer later in life than earlier in life. I was definitely in my mid-twenties because I’m in my late twenties now. So it wasn’t that long ago [laughs]. But, you know, it was my path didn’t really become clear until my mid-twenties, I think. After I left undergrad, I thought I had a clear path. I had a plan and I ended up hating it and I think that’s something that’s important to talk about too. It’s ok to change careers. It’s ok to change paths. I don’t think there’s any such thing as back pedaling or back tracking. You can only go forward. So, yeah, I think… I think all my experience together have made me who I am today.
MC: Yeah.
GR: And I think that can positively impact me as a leader, as a somebody who’s in human services, and it just gives me the opportunity, firsthand experiences. I can understand, there’s no threat between me and our neighbor who doesn’t speak English, who just arrived to this country. I feel like they’d feel more comfortable speaking to somebody who understands first to somebody who just…because people mean well but don’t-- it’s that language barrier that can be threatening, you know? I’ve gone to other countries and can’t communicate, and it’s scary! It’s a scary feeling not being able to talk to the people sitting around you. Obviously I have that confidence that I will find somebody who speaks English, but maybe I don’t. But here, living here, creating a life, settling down your roots. It can be a little scary sometimes.
MC: Yeah.
GR: I can’t imagine! I moved cities. I was still in North Carlina and I felt like oh my gosh what am I doing? I can’t imagine crossing the border and moving to a new country and settling down and creating a life and a better future for your loved ones. That, to me, is just amazing. My parents are my heroes for that.
MC: Yeah. You touched on empowerment too. Taking your experience and using that to empower others in the community--
GR: --yes--
MC: --who have had similar experiences. I think that’s really important. Well, Ginny, one of the last questions I have are, kind of bringing it all back together is, [40:23] what are some of the most important resources you think that could really benefit the, you know, Spanish speaking community here in Hickory or in Catawba County in general that you see is more pertinent?
GR: Yeah, so, man, there’s a few. [laughs] Like, right now, we, El Centro Latino, we serve the unifour area because we’re the only one in the area. So, we serve surrounding counties. It’s not just Catawba County and Hickory. Right now, we have our ESL classes. We’re starting to set up for Spanish classes. You know, it’s not a one-way street. That way businesses, business owners who have a majority Latino Hispanic community, they can be able to communicate at least the basics. So, we’re going to offer Spanish class. I think right now one of the biggest needs is just--and I think the pandemic brought this to light. It’s definitely not a new problem but it just brought it to light. A lot of kids have struggled in general, being virtual. Not having that support at home. I think that hit worldwide. I don’t think that’s just the Latino community at all. But, working for the Latino community, I think that a lot of kids aren’t at their reading level that they need to be. In third grade you have to do the intergrade tests. The majority of the Hispanic Latino students are not passing those. They’re not even at third grade level reading. They’re like two or three years behind. So, that’s one of the biggest things that we’re working on. We’re trying to get kids to be successful and to be able to read and do math, and it’s just a challenge whenever you go home and--and this is first-hand experience--you go home and your parents can’t help you because they just don’t know. Math is a little more universal, so they were able to help me a little longer than they were with English, and same with the students today. It’s something that we’re focusing on is the students. Middle school, getting them engaged. Getting them…and just me being out in the community, having friends, having family I hear a lot of kids in middle are ready to drop out of high school. They’re ready to turn sixteen and I’m like, no! But you’ve got so much potential! You’ve got so much to offer! And I think it’s just getting that engagement. Getting them involved in stuff that isn’t just, you know…I don’t know what kids do these days [laughs]. But the pandemic kind of just changed everything. But it’s just more than just hanging out on your phone and TikTok and Facebook and Snapchat. It’s more than just hanging out with your friends and partying. There’s a lot of things. You can do that too, but here are other options. Here’s what you can do. You don’t want to go to college? That’s fine. Let’s start--there’s technical schools. You can go get a trade. Anything. You can become a mechanic, own your own mechanic shop. You can--you want to be a construction worker? That’s awesome. We need construction workers. But maybe you want to own your own construction. Maybe you want to focus more on drywall and painting, be more--there’s so many things that we need to just educate our community and then offer these resources. We’re partnered up with the Catawba County Partnership for Children. You know, having a lot of conversations with CCM and all these other great non-profit organizations want to work with us and offer their services to our Hispanic population. So, we’re essentially just working with them. People come, you know, a lot of people lost their jobs and unfortunately due to the immigration status, a lot of people can’t get these jobs that need to be fulfilled. There’s all these companies that can’t find employees, but due to the lack of a social security number the majority of the Latinos, Hispanic people have an ETIN number. I think that’s what it’s called. And that allows them to work and pay taxes and open bank accounts. There’s been people who come searching for help and assistance to pay their light bill, pay for their children’s food next week because “they’re not in school, and I thought they be there so I didn’t buy groceries, and now I don’t know what to do.” We’re essentially a resource that, if we can’t provide the assistance, they need immediately, we can either go with them or send them somewhere we know that will welcome them and give them the assistance that they need. So, that’s essentially kind of where we’re at. Because we offer everything here at Centro Latino. We offer immigration services, all kinds of services. It’s just kind of everything. What do you need? Referrals, you know, translating services. We kind of do it all, and it’s just three of us. The AP Director, she’s focused on just the students, so that just leaves me and Mónica, our Client Services Advocate. We’re getting ready to hire new employees, so I think there’s many great things to come in our organization. And hopefully…we want to serve the people the way they need to be served, so we’re thinking of doing surveys and meetings where the community can come and tell us what it is that they’re looking for, what it is that they need, because we may think we know, but we may not know. We may think, this is what they want or need, but it’s not. When it’s something completely different. So, essentially, it’s just listening, hearing, and learning, and just providing that help, that resource. We’re essentially a resource for the Latino community in Catawba County and surrounding counties.
MC: Yeah. Well, I think that’s awesome, and I think the listening portion and the survey, I think that’s a really great idea that I haven’t really heard a lot, and I think that’s really important to start doing that.
GR: For sure.
MC: You really touched on some really great points. Well, those are all the questions I have. Is there anything you’d like to add?
GR: [Thinking] Um, no, I think I--
MC: --we covered it all? [Laughs]
GR: Yeah! I think--
MC: --awesome--
GR: --you know, as much as a I could in a little bit of time. [Laughs]
MC: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much Gianella.
GR: Yeah.
MC: Thank you for your time, and thank you for all your insight and sharing your story.
GR: Yeah, absolutely! Thank you so much.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Educadores
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Gianella Romero es la directora ejecutiva actual de El Centro Latino en Hickory, Carolina del Norte. Comienza la entrevista contándome sobre ella, sus raíces familiares y su trayecto desde su trabajo en la industria de la salud hasta su puesto actual como directora ejecutiva en una organización sin ánimo de lucro. Gianella también habla sobre su identidad mexicana-estadounidense y su experiencia creciendo en el condado de Catawba. Ella comparte cómo fue el sistema educativo K-12 para una persona con raíces latinoamericanas como ella y relata las luchas que enfrentó en una escuela primaria predominantemente Anglosajona. Ella explica cómo navegó la educación secundaria, el lugar de trabajo y como encontró su carrera profesional, compartiendo la falta de dirección que a menudo experimentó. Gianella profundiza sobre cómo comenzó en la industria de la salud, los desafíos que experimentó durante la pandemia de COVID-19 y su cambio de carrera en torno a las organizaciones sin ánimo de lucro. Ella cierra la entrevista hablando sobre los recursos proporcionados por El Centro Latino, los programas y servicios en los que ella y su equipo están trabajando actualmente y los desafíos que enfrentan muchos de los miembros de la comunidad hispanohablante en el condado de Catawba.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Gianella Romero por Marisa Carlton, 20 April 2022, R-0996, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios; cuidado de la salud; Identidad; educacion basica y media; trabajo y empleo
Es: Transcripción
Marisa Carlton: Ok. My name is Marisa Carlton. Today is April 20, 2022. I’m here with Gianella Romero. She is the Executive Director at El Centro Hispano [Latino] here in Hickory, North Carolina. Gianella, thank you for, you know, doing this interview with me and let’s get started. So, first I just want to ask, [00:28] tell me a little about yourself. I don’t know a lot about you. So, tell me a little bit about yourself and about your family roots and where you’re from, where you were born.
Gianella Romero: Yeah, absolutely. So, I’m Gianella. I go by Ginny. So, I introduce myself to different people differently but I need to work on that. So, my parents are both Mexican. They migrated to California. That’s where they had my oldest sister and me. I was only a month old when they moved over to North Carolina. My dad came first and then my mom followed after. I was raised in Hickory-slash-Newton, North Carolina. So, I mean this is home. This is my native town. I grew up here. I went to school in Winston Salem. I went to Winston Salem State University. Go Rams! [laughs] So, I’m a Ram. I went there. I got, then, you know, graduated. Stayed there a little bit, decided to start looking at grad school. My undergrad degree was actually in exercise physiology. So, I swore up and down I was going to be an athletic trainer. I thought I was going to be an exercise physiologist at a hospital. I, you know, didn’t really have a clear path to what I wanted to do. So, then I ended up getting into grad school. I was between UNC Greensboro and Lenoir Rhyne University for their athletic training program. I ended up--Lenoir Rhyne just made more sense. My mom was here. I could save some money living with her. So, I was just, it just made sense for me to come home. I was like, you know family is the most important thing. My sister had already moved back home. And this is, you know, it’s home. That’s part of our Latin American roots I think that we still hold dear to us, it’s just-- the culture. We tend to stay close to family, you know? I tried moving away and it wasn’t for me. So, I ended up coming back, did a semester at Lenoir Rhyne and decided I absolutely did not want to be an athletic trainer. I felt miserable. It was just not for me. I felt so crushed. I just didn’t know what was next. I ended up getting an entry level job at Frye Regional, the local hospital and it was an outpatient facility. Checking people in. Insurance verification. Still on the medical side because I was like, ok I still want to stay in, you know, healthcare. I ended up meeting a couple guys who were doing the MBA program at Lenoir Rhyne University and they pretty much-- I didn’t know that was an option. I didn’t know I could do the Masters in Business Administration with an undergrad degree that didn’t have to do with business. So, you know, learning through them and just kind of asking them questions. They hyped me up essentially. They’re like, no you can do it! You can get your MBA, get a healthcare concentration. You know, it’ll be worth it. I am so grateful for those guys. They’re amazing. They’re back home. They’re in Georgia but, you know, they influenced me to get my MBA, to pursue that. I got into my MBA program not really sure where I was going with it. I ended up in one of the classes my last semester there. It was with Michael Blackburn. He, essentially the class was, he took us to meet with other--it was a leadership class. He took us to meet other CEOs, meet nonprofit executive directors, and that’s when I learned, I want to be a CEO. I want to be an executive director, and then I didn’t know what kind of director I wanted to be. I didn’t know what kind of leadership I wanted to do. And that’s when I met the CCM, the Cooperative Christian Ministry executive director at the time. And I was just amazed at her, her leadership, what the mission, what their goals were, what her goals were as an individual for the organization. And I think that when they kind of just, I wanted to be in nonprofit. At that time, I had transitioned from that entry level job to business office position in senior healthcare. So, still healthcare. It was a long-term care facility here in Hickory. They gave me my first opportunity, you know, it was a salary job. I was so excited. Super grateful. So that’s kind of where my career stemmed off while I was in the MBA course. I kind of just started growing within my career in senior healthcare. I ended up graduating with my MBA, you know, I was like, what’s next? My employer at the time allowed me to take the AIT program within the company which is just Administrator in Training. I got licensed to be a nursing home administrator for the state of North Carolina. So, I am licensed! I can run a nursing home, any long-term care facility in North Carolina. I did that for a little bit. You know, I became an Executive Director for a sister facility in Taylorsville and then I realized I want to do--I want to have a bigger impact. I want to support these seniors in any and every way that I can and it starts from the top. So, after I got that license I, you know, kind of reached out to my boss. I asked her you know, what else is there for me? And I started traveling, going to different facilities. Just kind of implementing the company, state regulations. Making sure that the facilities, the communities were in compliance and if they weren’t I had to, essentially turn it around. So that’s kind of where my career was and then, throughout this entire journey, the pandemic happened and I was working seven days a week and I was working eighteen-hour days. I feel like, I can blame a little bit, the pandemic. I got a little burnt out. So, around the end of last year I started searching and I knew that I wanted to get into something that still meant, you know, still had meaning behind it. I wanted to make a difference in people’s lives. It didn’t have to-- I never believed that I can change the world but I believed that I could change at least one person’s world in a positive way. So, around November of last year, of 2021 is when I kind of just started looking at which direction I could go. I felt like I had so many options yet it was so limited [laughs]. I didn’t know. I wasn’t really sure. I’ve had some really great people in my personal life, my career, they’ve guided me, they’ve shown me that there is so many more options than just what I thought. I grew up thinking, I just wasn’t sure what I was going to do. My parents came to this country. They wanted my sisters and I to have a better future. They wanted us to do better than they did. So, to me, I was like, if I can be a bank teller, a banker--I was very limited to what I knew career-wise I could do. I didn’t know only based off what I can see here and that was just being a teacher, being a banker, being a teller. And I just never really knew. Other kids would be like, I want to be a doctor! I want to be a scientist! I wasn’t sure that that was realistic for me, you know? I remember classmates saying, I want to be the director, the CEO. I had no idea what that meant. [laughs] It wasn’t until my later days in life, when I was already in my career, that I learned that yeah, there’s a lot more for me that I can do. And then Centro Latino, I learned through somebody that I know that they were searching for an Executive Director. I looked at the job description, the qualifications and I said, I meet all of those. And then I kind of just had to sit back and question. I didn’t apply right away cause I was like, would I be good for this role? Am I fit for this? Am I qualified, even though I checked all the boxes? I had to kind of sit back and question, like, I would be leaving the healthcare industry all together. And it’s just different. It’s just different in many ways. It’s similar, but different. And so, I just wasn’t sure that I was a good fit for it. I started talking to my fiancé’s mom who’s very involved in the community. She’s very giving and very loving, and she’s very--she’s a great Christ-like person and I love her and I want to be like her. [laughs] So I started talking to her. I was hesitant because I wasn’t sure, you know? She has experience with this stuff and I didn’t have anybody to fall back on in this area of my career. So then, I just went ahead and submitted my resume, my cover letter, my references and like I said, I felt like I had everything. Till’ this day, I am very capable to do this job. I’m very confident in myself, but there’s those days that I have the imposter syndrome. That I’m like, what am I doing? Who do I think I am doing this? You know what I mean? So, it’s been a journey. It’s been a very long, great, beautiful, stressful, tearful, amazing journey. It’s been great. It’s been amazing.
MC: Yeah! That, I mean, that’s incredible. Just hearing the way that you got to where you are now, it’s really incredible. You touched on a lot of really great things that I want to kind of go back on and talk about. I guess we can start with, tell me a little bit more about your parents. You said that they’re from Mexico. [10:20] Tell me a little bit more about those roots and your family and maybe why they chose to move to the US.
GR: Yeah. Absolutely. So, both of my parents are from el Estado de Mexico. People confuse it with Mexico City. It’s el Estado de Mexico. It’s-- they’re very close to Guerrero. We have the tierra caliente roots. Grew up listening to tierra caliente, banda, grupos, all that. Very Mexican [laughs]. Very proud. No, so they’re both from there. My dad, he was a teenager when he first crossed the border. He’s been in the US longer than he’s been in his home country. My mom also she was trying to get into nursing but she unfortunately, due to poverty and just the lack of resources, she wasn’t able to fulfill that dream of hers. So, ultimately, you know, she had her journey, her life but ultimately decided to move to the US in search of that American Dream. I think it was my aunt’s husband had crossed the border, and she realized that was an option. She wanted to follow it. Both of my parents had the idea that they’d eventually go back home. Just save a little money and then we’ll head back home but luckily my dad was in the country when they did the amnesty. So, he was able to get his green card, and through marriage back when it was easier to get a green card through marriage, my mom was able…‘cause they met in California, got married, had my older sister. Then, a couple of years later, I came in the picture. My mom and dad decided, you know, a lot of things were happening in California at the time, in Los Angeles to be specific. The gangs, the violence, the lack of opportunities. It just--my parents knew that they wanted--they always knew they wanted more. I don’t know if they knew exactly what that “more” was, but they knew they wanted more and at that time they had my older sister and they had me and they knew it was time to get out of California. So, my dad had a plan to stop in North Carolina, stop in a couple other states and eventually end up in Florida, ‘cause he knew people from back home from Mexico who moved to these states. So, ultimately, he ended up coming here, fell in love. He tells me how Hickory, it was so green, like Spring’s Row. There was only trees. There was no stores. There was like, practically no Latinos, no Mexicans, no Hispanic people. You could count them with the fingers on your hands. We always drive by on Startown Road because they eventually ended up moving to Newton which is essentially where I ended up growing up. I went to Startown Elementary School. I was the third brown kid in my class.
MC: Wow.
GR: One was a biracial girl. She was black and white. Another girl, she was Hispanic descent but didn’t really speak Spanish. So, I like to consider myself the only Hispanic kid in my grade at that time. It was very different. But yeah, my parents they decided well, it was just time to move to Hickory, North Carolina and plant their roots, and eventually my younger sister was born here and she was raised in Hickory. Yeah, I mean, it’s been a journey. I don’t know how much detail you want from my parents’ life. They had a pretty rough life. My dad, he, you know, I just can’t imagine the trauma. The, you know, there’s stuff that we’re just now, as a society, starting to talk about. But, you know, it’s easy for us first gens who are exposed to certain stuff that our parents just weren’t. Like health care, mental health, that stuff. Even physical health, you know? Just eating healthy in general just hasn’t been a topic for at least our parents for the longest time. I think now it is. My mom’s super, she tries the green juices, let’s eat less red meat, no pork. But, you know, again, those aren’t things that they were exposed to in Mexico. It’s something they were exposed to here in the USA. So, it’s been a journey. [laughs]
MC: Do you remember what year it was that you moved here? Or--
GR: To North Carolina? It was in 1994.
MC: Ok and you were five years old?
GR: No, I was only a month old. [laughs]
MC: Oh, ok! So, you were a baby?
GR: Yeah! California was just my birthplace. I was born in Los Angeles California but I can’t claim the culture, you know? California has its own LA culture. I can’t claim any of it.
MC: Yeah.
GR: I was raised in Hickory. [laughs]
MC: Well, let’s touch on that a little bit. What was that like for you? You mentioned being one of three people of color growing up here and this is maybe back when Catawba County didn’t have a large Latino population yet. I know now it’s--
GR: --it’s grown! --
MC: --growing.
GR: Yeah! Absolutely.
MC: So, tell me about, you know, that experience for you. [15:34] What was that like being one of the only few Latino people growing up maybe in the education system in schools? Did you feel accepted by your peers? What was that like for you?
GR: It was definitely--[knock on door]
MC: We can pause.
GR: Ok.
MC: Yeah.
GR: Sorry.
MC: That’s ok.
[00:16:00] [Pauses recording for about 3 minutes]
[00:16:01] [Resumes recording]
GR: Ok, so, being one of the three people of color, and I remember this was in kindergarten and obviously it got better. I think I was in third grade when I realized I wasn’t the only one--no. Might’ve been second grade. A girl from our church moved to Newton and she ended up being one of the students. By third grade there was a handful of Latino, Hispanic people. More people of color. So, I think this was back in the early 2000s when I was in elementary school. It was definitely a culture shock for me because I did start my kindergarten school year at Oakwood Elementary near Downtown Hickory and that class, I hardly ever spoke English. I was in there my cousins. I was in there with my, you know, neighborhood kids, everybody who grew up in that same apartment complex was going there. So, you know, it felt like home. I was just spending the day with, you know, with my neighbors, with my friends. And then halfway through the year we ended up moving to Newton. That’s when I started at a different school, predominantly white. I didn’t speak for about a week. I remember just not--I don’t remember clearly. I can’t claim to remember, but it’s just one of the memories that did stick with me was me not wanting to talk to anybody there. I didn’t want to. I didn’t feel comfortable. I didn’t want to talk to them. The teachers talked to me like I was slow. They didn’t know I spoke English. [laughs] So, I remember one day, I think it was like a week or two after I had already been attending school there, they kind of just let me be. I would mind my own business and kind of--yeah. I don’t remember clearly how I was interacting with anyone or not but I do remember that she started going through my bookbag and was pulling out my planner and then that’s when I spoke to her for the first time. And she was like oh! You do speak English! She was just so shocked. And I looked at her and was like, yeah! I do! And then after that I remember I could not stand her. [laughs] I was a sassy little kid. But then you know, my parents talked to me. They’re like no, you have to understand they don’t know. You know, you’re probably the only one there but, you know? They weren’t sure what it looked like. They knew it was predominantly white cause obviously they signed us up for the school but they just wanted better for us. So, they were just, it’s ok. She’ll learn. You’ll learn and I was like ok. Let that go, you know. It was fine. I got over it. [laughs] And then I think relatively I had a pretty quote unquote “normal” childhood. I always had friends. I never felt hated or discriminated against, and if I was being discriminated against, I just didn’t notice it. I think it wasn’t until I hit middle school when that kind of really became a thing. The Latinos wanted to hang out with the Latinos. The black and the black. The Hmong and the Hmong. And you know, the whites with the whites. But I think, you know, I don’t know. Maybe I was just lucky and blessed that my group of friends was always very diverse. I always had a diverse group of friends. I always had-- I don’t know. I felt like that was going to be the norm. Going into middle school and everyone’s divided, ‘cause that’s what it looked like from an elementary school kid going into middle school. I was like, oh my gosh I don’t think I’m ready for that. But it ended up not being like that at all. It was very…I’ve always personally felt included and I don’t know if that’s just my personality…It could be a bunch of factors that factor in and make that difference. But there’s always that-- where are you from? You know? In high school I went to Challenger Early College High School. That was something in itself, too. [Laughs] My journey has been--I don’t know, it sounds crazy. I don’t know if its special or anything, but going to Challenger Early College High School I feel like I remember thinking, I’m going to graduate. I’m going to have my Associates degree. I don’t need anything else. I’m fine. I will get a job and I’ll be happy. But I think it was in high school when I realized that I want more than just that. Throughout my journey there, I was like, I want more. I don’t think that that’s it for me. I knew that that wasn’t it. You know, I kept telling myself that, you know, no after high school I’m done. I’m going to have my Associates degree. I don’t need to do anything else. I’ll join the military or do something. And I was like, I’ll be fine. And then as time got closer for me to start looking for colleges, I had no direct, clear path at all. I didn’t know. Everybody else is applying for colleges. They’re talking about our resumes, our community service hours. You gotta do this. You gotta do that to graduate. And, you know, I appreciate Challenger now. It’s definitely shaped me into the person that I am, but I didn’t know that at the time. I was just--this is it for me. I don’t know. Because, you know, I think that’s where the conversation of where representation matters. I didn’t see people who looked like me doing anything else other than, every now and then you’d see a teacher. You’d see a banker, you’d go to the grocery store and there’s a manager, but I guess I wasn’t exposed to it to the degree that other people knew that they wanted to pursue law. They wanted to pursue, you know, bioengineering. All these things that I just didn’t know anything about and I just felt like I was cruising through life just kind of, whatever happens, happens, you know?
MC: Yeah.
GR: And I just remember my parents always telling me--I could just hear them still in my ears. It’s very clear. My dad like, tu puedes. Tu puedes. He’d call me flaca. Like, tu puedes flaca. Or my mom, Gianelita. She’d be like, whatever you want to do. But then I had a counselor in high school. She was, like, you have to apply to at least-- I don’t remember how many schools she told me I had to apply to before I wasn’t going to be allowed to graduate. And I was like, ok, fine. Cause I didn’t have any plans on applying to any school. I was like that’s not for me. What am I going to do there? I’m just just another-- I hate to say it this way, but this was my mentality. I’m just another brown kid. What am I going to go do there? I just didn’t feel like that was something for me. But I always grew up hearing my dad and my mom telling me, you’re going to go to college. You’re going to do better than us. You’re going to have a better future. You’re going to do better because we couldn’t do better. And so, I just kind of knew I had to go to college, but I didn’t know how to do that. And when I was in high school that counselor was like, you won’t graduate until you apply to x amount of schools. I applied. I got accepted. And I was like, oh! Cool! I didn’t think I’d get accepted. So, I’m like, the fact that I got accepted in the first place was just amazing. I was like, woah! Maybe this is something I could do. And then I ended up, you know, weighing my options. Touring different schools. I didn’t really know what I was touring for because I didn’t know. I just knew that’s what my classmates were doing. So, I was like, well, let me go tour them! Why am I going to go somewhere I’ve never been? And I ended up getting accepted to Winston Salem State University and I just-- that was it. I went to visit that school. You know, it’s a historical black college university and I was, this is it. This is where I belong. I don’t need to go anywhere else. Yeah, and just, you know, a lot of factors went into it. It was, you know, financially it just made more sense. Culturally, I felt like I just-- I don’t know. I don’t want it to sound bad but I felt like being a minority within a minority was better than being a minority within the PWI. Personally. Just me. And I ended up loving my experience there. The confidence I gained. The knowledge. The just--everything was just amazing. Like, to me, I kind of wish I wouldn’t have done the early college so I would have been able to do it for four years because I graduated in two and a half years. So, I wish I would’ve been there longer for sure, but I don’t regret anything. It’s been incredible. It’s been an incredible journey. Going to Winston Salem State has literally shaped me into the leader I am today, ‘cause their biggest model was depart to serve.
MC: Right.
GR: And I think that kind of just-- you hear it enough it becomes part of, you know, subconsciously or consciously. I chose to embrace it. They told us depart to serve. I wanted to do that. I wanted to serve. I ended up choosing my major literally because I didn’t know what to choose. I went in as a junior, so I’m like 19 years old and I have to choose my major. And I was like, I don’t know! Because I had already done all my gen ed classes with Challenger, so I went in as a junior and I was like, I don’t know what I want to do. I didn’t think I’d get this far. So, then at the time I was really into fitness. Like, all that stuff. And I ended up choosing exercise physiology because I like science. I like exercise. And what better combination than that? I didn’t know what I was going to do with it. And then eventually, you know, taking the classes, learning career options, I was like yeah. I’m going to do that. I’m going to be an exercise physiologist. Nope. I changed my mind. I’m going to be an athletic trainer. Nope. I changed my mind. I’m going to do physical therapy. I kept changing my mind so much but then eventually when time came that I had to decide what I wanted to do and that’s kind of how, you know, I said earlier I ended up doing an internship at Wake Forest Baptist. I got accepted to Lenoir Rhyne. It was between Lenoir Rhyne and UNC Greensboro. I chose LRU. Came back home, did a semester, hated it. I think God puts us in the places where we belong. I think everything happens for a reason. Because I always knew I wanted more. I just didn’t know what that “more” was. And I like to feel fulfilled. I don’t want my job to be a job. I want it to be a passion. So, when I got into the health care field, you know, I eventually ended up in the senior care. I absolutely loved it. And then, again, the pandemic kind of caused some burnout., some stress, and all that stuff. So I felt like I wasn’t loving it anymore. I think it’s just time to transition into something, and then I feel like maybe one day I could go back into the health care field. I want to keep my license active. I just don’t want to close that door, But for the time being I am absolutely loving being the Executive Director. I think, like I said, I think God put me in this position for a reason. All those obstacle courses I had to go through, and not knowing, and knowing that I wanted more but not sure how to do it. I think that’s one of my main goals here is to help guide the Latino students. Because we have the AP Program. The Abriendo Puertas Program that translates to opening doors. Right now, it’s only focused on K through 5. We’re just starting to--we’re making plans to expand into the middle school and the high school. And I think that’s where…I think it all matters, you know? All of it matters. I think kids need to be exposed to women in leadership roles. They need to be exposed to people of color in leadership roles. They need to be exposed to women who are people of color in leadership roles, you know? And not just in leadership roles. As business owners, as small businesses, big businesses, real estate. Whatever it is that they just I think students of all ages need to be exposed to this. And I think I can help do that. I don’t like to toot my own horn but I think that I can make a difference in at least one or two people in the community, and hopefully its more than that, but I think, that’s my mindset. I’m like, if I can at least help one or two people I think that’s great. Obviously, the goal is to help as many as we can, but just, you know, I think just personally I take pride in that. I take pride in being able to give people information, knowledge. I was in healthcare, so I made an impact whenever the vaccines rolled out. People didn’t want to get it. There was a lot of misinformation out. I got the vaccine and shared my knowledge, the science behind it and you know, people in the community looked up to me for that because I knew the science. They considered me a reliable source. So, then I got the vaccine. Some people followed. Some people chose not to, and I said that’s totally your decision. It’s something that you can decide for yourself, but here at the facts. And I think that, being in this position now, you know, a year later after all that’s happened, it’s kind of shown that I can make a difference. I can influence people in a positive way, never fooling anyone into believing something. Never, whatever my personal beliefs are, I’m never going to shove them down somebody else. “You have to believe this because this is the right”-- it’s freedom, just have all the facts and then you decide. You choose what you want to know, what you want to believe. So, ultimately, I think that’s just kind of…I feel like I’m here for a reason and hopefully I can fulfill that reason. [Laughs]
MC: Yeah. I think you touched on really important things, like representation, and when you talked about navigating that education system and going into college. I know, you touched on a lot of things that I resonate with as well because I was first a generation student going to college and I really didn’t have any guidance going through that process. I didn’t know everything that was available and it seems that you kind of went through that as well. It seems like it was just, a lot of it was just trying to figure that out yourself. And I think that representation is really important.
GR: Yes.
[31:01] MC: Now, I want to talk about maybe how your, maybe just experiences being Mexican-American, how that ties into your current role now? You know, how does that help you in your position now?
GR: I think it helps in a lot of ways because, you know, we have that first gen experience. We essentially, we are the community. We are the target community that Centro Latino is trying to target. I benefited from Centro Latino when I was a kid. My parents came. They did the parenting classes that they were offering at the time because my older sister was getting ready to go--she was in middle school. I was two years behind her so they were like, ok. These are waters we’ve never navigated. We need help. My older sister I guess was getting rebellious. They didn’t know what to do. So they sought out help and Centro Latino was here to help. And just being somebody who can say I benefitted from the services here I think really makes an impact, and I feel like it’s just knowing-- I don’t represent all Latinos. But I can be a good representation, I guess is what I’m trying to say. I can be a good representation of Latinos, but I’m not the only representation. I don’t represent everybody, but I think it’s a really good place to start, because how is your target population going to be Hispanic Latinos but then you don’t know first-hand experiences? You know, the fear of being first gen, the fear of being an immigrant in this country. Both of my parents thankfully, we’re very grateful for the fact that they’re both US citizens, but they don’t get treated that way. You know what I mean? People see and assume that they’re illegal. They see me and automatically think, you know, where are you from? And I’m like, from Hickory. No, where are you really from? I’m from Hickory! No, where are you really from? From Hickory; where are you from? And like that’s when I kind of just, ok I’m turning it around on you. Where are you from? [Laughs] So, I think I understand those challenges. I understand the struggles. I consider myself a privileged, quote unquote privileged person because there is things that I do know that some people in our community may not know. And I know it sounds crazy to say it that way but I consider that a privilege. You know, there’s certain resources that I know, you know. There’s certain stuff in the health care field like, you know, people don’t know how to go and defend themselves or, you know, defend their child or defend their loved one who’s ill because it’s happened. I don’t know about you but it’s happened to me where it’s my symptoms were dismissed. And then you know, I insist and I insist, and I feel privileged that I can communicate, that I can-- I know most of my rights. I don’t claim to know everything, but I know, well, ok, if you can’t help me then I will find someone who can. I know how to speak up, but that’s something that a lot of our family members, our friends, cannot do. So, I think just knowing that and experiencing that first-hand allows me to be able to turn around and say ok, what are the services that we can provide? What are the programs that we can create? Or, who should we partner up with in the community who offers these great solutions and help. They offer assistance. Whatever it is that people need, they may have something that we don\’t, but how can we partner up with them so that we can offer them this assistance? These services? With them feeling comfortable. With them feeling safe. With them being able to communicate. So that’s, I feel like that helps a lot. Being able to understand the struggles. The intimidation, just being a minority in general in this country can… I don’t want to make it sound like it’s a negative thing, because it’s not. It’s a beautiful thing! It’s just what the past few years it’s become more of a struggle. I thought we were past it; you know? So, [laughs] it’s a little devastating to see how you know, 180 the country kind of did. You know, the past few years, but I feel like there’s definitely so many more people open to hearing the Latino, Hispanic… understanding the culture. Understanding the differences. And I’m like, one of the things that I say a lot is that we’re all human. We’re all more similar than we are different. The only thing is that God gave us these languages and He gave us different skin tones. But we’re more alike than we are different. It’s exciting as the new Executive Director here to see people welcoming, being so welcoming to me. Being so ready to partner up and to… how can we work together? You know? I know you offer these services we offer these; how can we make this work? And I think that just makes me very excited about the fact that our community is ready. They may not know they’re ready--its going to be hit or miss some places. But for the most part, I think people are wanting to start to listen. They’re starting to want to understand, and I think that’s very important and we have to be very willing to listen and to speak, and be honest. I’m like, this is my truth. I can’t hide it, you know? I’m not going to sit here and pretend that it was an easy journey and that because I speak English, it was easier. I’m not going to sit here and say I had a great a teacher who influenced me, because I didn’t get any of that. I didn’t see people who looked like me doing things like this, but I knew I wanted to be that. I wasn’t sure how because I wasn’t exposed to it until I was in grad school, essentially. And then being exposed to the boss who gave me that first business office position. She was a person of color. She was black, and she treated me like anybody else, but to me it meant something to have a person of color who was in a leadership role. I think it made me realize, I want to be a leader. I want to be a boss. I want to make a difference in people’s lives. I can do it too. So, I think most of my influence and…yeah, I guess you can call them my influence. My direction kind of became clearer later in life than earlier in life. I was definitely in my mid-twenties because I’m in my late twenties now. So it wasn’t that long ago [laughs]. But, you know, it was my path didn’t really become clear until my mid-twenties, I think. After I left undergrad, I thought I had a clear path. I had a plan and I ended up hating it and I think that’s something that’s important to talk about too. It’s ok to change careers. It’s ok to change paths. I don’t think there’s any such thing as back pedaling or back tracking. You can only go forward. So, yeah, I think… I think all my experience together have made me who I am today.
MC: Yeah.
GR: And I think that can positively impact me as a leader, as a somebody who’s in human services, and it just gives me the opportunity, firsthand experiences. I can understand, there’s no threat between me and our neighbor who doesn’t speak English, who just arrived to this country. I feel like they’d feel more comfortable speaking to somebody who understands first to somebody who just…because people mean well but don’t-- it’s that language barrier that can be threatening, you know? I’ve gone to other countries and can’t communicate, and it’s scary! It’s a scary feeling not being able to talk to the people sitting around you. Obviously I have that confidence that I will find somebody who speaks English, but maybe I don’t. But here, living here, creating a life, settling down your roots. It can be a little scary sometimes.
MC: Yeah.
GR: I can’t imagine! I moved cities. I was still in North Carlina and I felt like oh my gosh what am I doing? I can’t imagine crossing the border and moving to a new country and settling down and creating a life and a better future for your loved ones. That, to me, is just amazing. My parents are my heroes for that.
MC: Yeah. You touched on empowerment too. Taking your experience and using that to empower others in the community--
GR: --yes--
MC: --who have had similar experiences. I think that’s really important. Well, Ginny, one of the last questions I have are, kind of bringing it all back together is, [40:23] what are some of the most important resources you think that could really benefit the, you know, Spanish speaking community here in Hickory or in Catawba County in general that you see is more pertinent?
GR: Yeah, so, man, there’s a few. [laughs] Like, right now, we, El Centro Latino, we serve the unifour area because we’re the only one in the area. So, we serve surrounding counties. It’s not just Catawba County and Hickory. Right now, we have our ESL classes. We’re starting to set up for Spanish classes. You know, it’s not a one-way street. That way businesses, business owners who have a majority Latino Hispanic community, they can be able to communicate at least the basics. So, we’re going to offer Spanish class. I think right now one of the biggest needs is just--and I think the pandemic brought this to light. It’s definitely not a new problem but it just brought it to light. A lot of kids have struggled in general, being virtual. Not having that support at home. I think that hit worldwide. I don’t think that’s just the Latino community at all. But, working for the Latino community, I think that a lot of kids aren’t at their reading level that they need to be. In third grade you have to do the intergrade tests. The majority of the Hispanic Latino students are not passing those. They’re not even at third grade level reading. They’re like two or three years behind. So, that’s one of the biggest things that we’re working on. We’re trying to get kids to be successful and to be able to read and do math, and it’s just a challenge whenever you go home and--and this is first-hand experience--you go home and your parents can’t help you because they just don’t know. Math is a little more universal, so they were able to help me a little longer than they were with English, and same with the students today. It’s something that we’re focusing on is the students. Middle school, getting them engaged. Getting them…and just me being out in the community, having friends, having family I hear a lot of kids in middle are ready to drop out of high school. They’re ready to turn sixteen and I’m like, no! But you’ve got so much potential! You’ve got so much to offer! And I think it’s just getting that engagement. Getting them involved in stuff that isn’t just, you know…I don’t know what kids do these days [laughs]. But the pandemic kind of just changed everything. But it’s just more than just hanging out on your phone and TikTok and Facebook and Snapchat. It’s more than just hanging out with your friends and partying. There’s a lot of things. You can do that too, but here are other options. Here’s what you can do. You don’t want to go to college? That’s fine. Let’s start--there’s technical schools. You can go get a trade. Anything. You can become a mechanic, own your own mechanic shop. You can--you want to be a construction worker? That’s awesome. We need construction workers. But maybe you want to own your own construction. Maybe you want to focus more on drywall and painting, be more--there’s so many things that we need to just educate our community and then offer these resources. We’re partnered up with the Catawba County Partnership for Children. You know, having a lot of conversations with CCM and all these other great non-profit organizations want to work with us and offer their services to our Hispanic population. So, we’re essentially just working with them. People come, you know, a lot of people lost their jobs and unfortunately due to the immigration status, a lot of people can’t get these jobs that need to be fulfilled. There’s all these companies that can’t find employees, but due to the lack of a social security number the majority of the Latinos, Hispanic people have an ETIN number. I think that’s what it’s called. And that allows them to work and pay taxes and open bank accounts. There’s been people who come searching for help and assistance to pay their light bill, pay for their children’s food next week because “they’re not in school, and I thought they be there so I didn’t buy groceries, and now I don’t know what to do.” We’re essentially a resource that, if we can’t provide the assistance, they need immediately, we can either go with them or send them somewhere we know that will welcome them and give them the assistance that they need. So, that’s essentially kind of where we’re at. Because we offer everything here at Centro Latino. We offer immigration services, all kinds of services. It’s just kind of everything. What do you need? Referrals, you know, translating services. We kind of do it all, and it’s just three of us. The AP Director, she’s focused on just the students, so that just leaves me and Mónica, our Client Services Advocate. We’re getting ready to hire new employees, so I think there’s many great things to come in our organization. And hopefully…we want to serve the people the way they need to be served, so we’re thinking of doing surveys and meetings where the community can come and tell us what it is that they’re looking for, what it is that they need, because we may think we know, but we may not know. We may think, this is what they want or need, but it’s not. When it’s something completely different. So, essentially, it’s just listening, hearing, and learning, and just providing that help, that resource. We’re essentially a resource for the Latino community in Catawba County and surrounding counties.
MC: Yeah. Well, I think that’s awesome, and I think the listening portion and the survey, I think that’s a really great idea that I haven’t really heard a lot, and I think that’s really important to start doing that.
GR: For sure.
MC: You really touched on some really great points. Well, those are all the questions I have. Is there anything you’d like to add?
GR: [Thinking] Um, no, I think I--
MC: --we covered it all? [Laughs]
GR: Yeah! I think--
MC: --awesome--
GR: --you know, as much as a I could in a little bit of time. [Laughs]
MC: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much Gianella.
GR: Yeah.
MC: Thank you for your time, and thank you for all your insight and sharing your story.
GR: Yeah, absolutely! Thank you so much.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-0996 -- Romero, Gianella.
Description
An account of the resource
Gianella Romero is the current Executive Director at El Centro Latino in Hickory, North Carolina. She begins the interview by talking about herself, her family roots, and her journey from being in the healthcare field to transitioning into her current role as Executive Director in the non-profit sector. Gianella also discusses her Mexican-American identity and her experience growing up in Catawba County. She shares what the K-12 education system was like for her as someone with Latin American roots and recounts the struggles she faced in a predominantly white elementary school. She explains what it was like navigating higher education and the workplace, and figuring out her career path, sharing the lack of direction she often times experienced. Gianella speaks in depth about starting off in the healthcare industry, the challenges she experienced during the COVID-19 pandemic, and her career shift into the non-profit industry. She closes the interview by speaking on the resources being provided by El Centro Latino, the programs and services she and her team are currently working on, and the challenges that many of the Spanish-speaking community members in Catawba County are facing.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
No restrictions. Open to research
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2022-04-20
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
R0996_Audio.mp3
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/29173">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/2c97c03534dbb54efbab4ee0bf205634.MP3
889579e4f8846e354302cc2da32dd1df
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/4cc461b225b4b3fde5abf7f08746a74f.pdf
171c81f78ced5d9479e9b7b64ba51f65
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0984
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
2018-11-02
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Vicente, Yesenia Pedro.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Educators
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Morganton -- Burke County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Carrboro -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
NA
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Gill, Hannah.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Yesenia Pedro Vicente shares a second interview with the Nuevas Raíces initiative. Yesenia relates her experiences teaching in Phoenix, Arizona for several years after graduating from UNC in 2013. She draws contrasts between living in North Carolina and the Southwestern U.S., where there are much larger communities with Latin American heritage. She returned to North Carolina in 2018 to be closer to her family in western North Carolina and work in the Graduate School at UNC Chapel Hill. Yesenia discusses the impact of the APPLES Global Course Guanajuato Course that she participated in in 2013 as an undergraduate at UNC. She talks about her hometown, Morganton, NC, and how it has changed in the last few years. She describes with enthusiasm the annual Food Festival of St. Charles Borromeo at her Morganton church, where community members with many different backgrounds that include Hmong, Guatemalan, Polish, Irish, and African come together to celebrate their heritages. Yesenia also describes the importance of her family’s Guatemalan Mayan heritage and her parents’ native language, Q’anjob’al.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Yesenia Pedro Vicente, 02 November 2018, R-0984, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/28579
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Culture; K12 Education; Food; Indigenous Populations; Higher Education
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Hannah Gill: Okay. Well, let’s get started. I’m here with Yesenia Pedro Vicente. This is Hannah Gill. It is November 2nd, 2018. Thank you so much, Yesi, for being here to do this interview. This is a follow-up interview, in a way, to an interview that you did in 2013 with Joel Hage as part of the APPLES Global Course Guanajuato here at UNC Chapel Hill. And that interview focused a lot on identity, and you talk a lot about different ways that you identify and you’ve done a whole lot since graduating here at UNC so, we’ll explore a little bit of that throughout this interview. So, thank you so much for being here. Yesenia Vicente: Oh, yes. [laughs]. I’m glad to be here.
HG: And you have--. I have your consent to record the interview?
YV: Yes. You do.
HG: Okay. Great. So, I wanted, maybe you can share with us about what have you been doing since you have graduated in what year?
YV: 2013.
HG: 2013.
YV: Yes.
HG: [00:01:12] You’ve been doing a lot so share where you’ve been travelling and working.
YV: Yeah. So right after graduating I moved out to Phoenix, Arizona. I was accepted to Teach for America. So, I was a Phoenix 2013 core member. And so, I moved out to be a high school teacher. I started teaching Spanish. Mainly because I was a native speaker, and so my admin at the time said, okay, you know, how do you feel about teaching Spanish? And I was a little hesitant because I’ve never studied Spanish formally. But, I, you know. You’re fresh out of college and it’s your first job offer and you know, you’re ambitious so you say yes. So, I accepted the offer and I began teaching Spanish. And I had to teach myself along the way but I built a really good relationship with my students and I know that I care about education and helping underrepresented minorities succeed and I was working in south Phoenix with a school that served you kn--. It was Title One. It served low income, about ninety to ninety-five percent Mexican-American student population. It was very small. So, I did that my first two years. I also started teaching AP English my second- or my second year. So, after finishing up my two-year commitment with teach for America, I stayed to teach a third year and taught out in the west valley at another high school this time. My real passion is in English language arts. And so, I taught freshman, sophomore, regular level English. And then, I had postponed a scholarship that I had as an undergrad to the limit that I could. And so, it’s the Gates Millennium Scholars Program. And so, I had postponed that or deferred that scholarship for three years and I ran out of time. So, I needed to basically use it up and so I decided to pursue my Masters in Education. Again, because I know that I want to work in education. Not a hundred percent sure yet where, but I do. So, I started my master’s program. I left teaching because I realized that balancing teaching and a full time Master’s program was a lot. So, I was the manager of a college access program for two years. And this program had amazing, and still has--. It’s a program that I very much believe in. It has great results in terms of working with low-income, first gen college bound high school students. Both in Phoenix and in Tucson. But after a couple of years of--. I mean, it’d been five years where I had been going home once or twice a year. Just making the flight and having the time to make the flight worth it to come back to North Carolina to see my family, made it so I came only once or twice a year. And so, I realized that I wanted to be closer to my family. And so, I decided to start applying for jobs. I do care about college access. I think that wherever my career goes I will be working with young adults. And so, my thought process was, okay, well. I’ve worked now with freshman and sophomore students. Juniors. College bound, so juniors and seniors. Let’s try working with college students. Let’s see how I can support students because the research shows that more and more underrepresented minorities are accessing college. The issue is that retention and graduation. So, I started looking for jobs where I can support in student affairs. Because, I do believe in the whole student development where we can have academic resources and support, but we also need to figure out how we can support students beyond the classroom. And so, I got this position where I’m at now as the coordination for a diversity program in the graduate school. You know, I’m three months in and it's going pretty well so far. [smiles]. I am trying to figure out, you know, how I can better serve students but I’m also just learning the ropes.
HG: Yeah. Right. You just got started so--
YV: Yes.
HG: Well, I can say we’re—. I’m so excited that you’re back at UNC and that we are colleagues now.
YV: Yes!
HG: It’s really cool.
YV: Me too. [laughs].
HG: Alright. So, let’s see. So, you talked about what you did in Arizona, but [00:05:48] I wondered if you could reflect upon just the shift from growing up in Morganton, in the foothills of North Carolina and the shift to moving to Arizona where communities with Latin American heritage are so much larger. So, can you reflect upon that? What was that like for you? This change?
YV: Yes. So, that was a great change. I love Phoenix. I will always love Phoenix. So, growing up in Western North Carolina, right in the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains, I was lucky to have been raised in a, what feels to me like a significant, in a large-minded community. And, feeling that every weekend you know, I had this community available. My parents had their comadres and compadres. And you know, we’d have these social gatherings. So, coming to UNC, I knew always that I was a minority. And even in my classes in my high school. Just going back to that for a second. I was the only Latina in my honors and gifted classes and AP classes. So, I know that. And I knew that I am a minority but coming to UNC it’s--. It became much more obvious just in terms of walking around, seeing students, and realizing that you know, there isn’t a Mayan community. And also, if I go into the general identity of being Latina, there weren’t that many Latina or Latinx students. The majority was white and then the next minority groups at least from my perspective was African American. And then, Asian, and then it would be Latino students in terms of population size. So, moving to Phoenix where there is such a large Mexican-American predominantly population, but Latino in general, it was really exciting to walk around and seeing billboards that were bilingual and knowing that I could read both of them. And understand both of them. And once I understood my Spanish grammar better, like [laughs] actually correct sometimes where a missing accent mark was. It was just really, how do I describe it? Affirming of who I am and of how many similarities I had with my Mexican students or Mexican-American students where, you know, we did know some common pop culture references or had some similar jokes and I could joke with them and throw out Spanish words and they got it. And they’d be like, Miss! You know about this? And seeing them get excited that their educator had similar background to them. That was very rewarding and I just enjoyed seeing more people who looked like me. And so, moving back to North Carolina, it has suddenly made me realize, oh I’m back into black and white space. And so, what I had to do the last couple of months is basically go church hopping to the different Spanish masses in the triangle area to try to find a--. One, a church that I like with priests that I like that, you know, whose preaching style I prefer with good music, but also, you know, that have a significant Latino community. So, I have found that. You know, I go now to St. Thomas More which is a church near campus actually where I enjoy the music. I enjoy just being surrounded by Latino families. And you know, I don’t know many of them yet, so I don’t know which countries specifically, but that’s kind of my way of touching back with the Latino community because I feel like it’s not as prevalent here and so I see that gap. I feel that gap. Coming back here.
HG: [00:09:46] Did having the experience of going to Mexico as part of the course that you took, APPLES Global Course Guanajuato, did going there and having that experience in Guanajuato, was that something that you thought you could relate more to your students with Mexican-American or Mexican heritage? Did you--. Were you able to--.
YV: I--. It helped me. Yes. It helped me in the sense that, honestly, it helped my better understand Mexican geography because Mexico is such a large country. And so, if I had any students that were from Guanajuato, or surrounding areas, I could be like, oh I know where that is! Sometimes they would ask me and I would have no idea where their town or city is from. But, letting them know that I had been there, they thought was very fascinating. A lot of my students go back pretty regularly to Mexico so it was pretty cool to hear their stories. I think that the trip to Guanajuato was more impactful for me, just in a general level with--. I think that comparing Mexican culture with Guatemalan and Mayan culture, so when I think back about the Guanajuato course or back to it, I love the city of Guanajuato. It felt so, how can I describe it? So rich in culture and architecture and honestly, you know, with the museums and the plazas it felt so wealthy in many ways. And that is something that I remember being impressed by because Guatemala, at least where I have travelled to or where my grandparents are rom is very rural and it’s in the mountains and its, you know, these small concrete houses. They’re still some of the original houses made of adobe and wood. And so, it was interesting for me to see woah, there is a part of Latin American that looks so rich. But then, when we went to El Gusano in the more rural parts, in Guanajuato, I remember feeling much more familiar with that environment and that was very interesting for me to also know and understand that there are rural parts. Mexico is not rich. I know that. I understand that. But, Guanajuato the capital, or the city made me realize that woah, there can be a lot of wealth and then there is also such a huge disparity with the rural areas. A lot of my students came from both. Some of them were from wealthier families in Mexico who had migrated to the U.S. and others were from the rural areas. And now that I think about it, yeah! I mean, we talked about that too. I can relate to some students who were like my family isn’t rich. And I was like, mine isn’t either. And I felt like I could relate to them more to the students that you know, came from a wealthy family in Mexico.
HG: Thanks. That’s interesting. So, maybe we can talk a little bit about the place where you’re from, Morganton. And you’ve lived, well, you’ve lived there for most of your first part of your life.
YV: [laughs] Right.
HG: And of course, you’ve been off doing really exciting things in different parts of the country and the world since then, but it’s now been what? Thirty or forty years that Morganton is having [sudden thump]. Communities of folks from all over Latin America particularly from Guatemala and it’s not necessarily a community of new immigrants anymore. Your family was among the first that moved there. [00:13:24] And I’m just wondering if you could reflect upon what Morgan--. How Morganton has changed over the years?
YV: Yes. So, Morganton it has grown. And that is something that I, while I was in college and even gone to Phoenix, didn’t really see because I was always traveling or you know, at school, or out of state. But every time I came home I kept--. When we could drive around, I kept catching myself asking, wait what is that? What’s new? So, over the last, I would say over the last ten years, I would say Morganton has developed a lot more. There is a new shopping center with a super Walmart and Applebee’s and frozen yogurt and I think a Lowes or Home Depot that has grown. And, downtown there are a couple of breweries that weren’t there before until you’re seeing this city actually--I’d always thought of it as a town, right? It didn’t seem like a city to me but it is becoming more developed. And I would be interested to, you know, find out what’s driving that economic growth. I think that growing up I heard a lot that it was a retiree community but I would be interested to see how these generations of immigrants have also contributed to that economic growth. I think that when I think about my classmates, a lot of people from my high school and the other high school in the county stay. I mean, some of us left, and now still live in North Carolina or Virginia. You know, neighboring states. But a good number of students have stayed there and especially when I look back and think about you know, my childhood friends, the people that I went to church with, you know, members of the Mayan communities. Most of the young adults who are either you know, still in high school or have graduated and are now attending community college, most have stayed and they’re starting to establish their own families. And some of my good friends from high school have multiple children now and they’re still there. So, Morganton itself as a city has grown a lot and I do think that some of the growth is due to, you know, that this increasingly young population in a town that historically was a retirement community, and was a lot of older white people.
HG: Yeah. Sure. [00:16:00] Are your friends or your neighbors or folks that you know, young folks, are they finding employment opportunities in Morganton that would enable them to stay there?
YV: So, that is a great question. They are from what I can tell. A lot of this has had to be through Facebook because I haven’t really been around to catch up but I’m seeing that my friends or my peers work in, they’re either working in fast food or retail or in the pharmacies. So, I have a friend who’s a pharmacy tech. Another, it’s her sister is in the nursing program at the community college and is working as a CNA in the hospital. So, they’re either finding work in the hospital or in medicine it seems. Pharmacies or it’s in the retail sector.
HG: So, I know that you’re super excited about going home tomorrow?
YV: Mhm. Yes. I leave tonight, actually.
HG: I know you’re really excited about going home. You haven’t been… When’s the last time you were in Morganton? You’ve probably been home more recently, but you haven’t been to this particular celebration?
YV: Festival.
HG: Festival that you’re excited about going to at your church.
YV: Yes!
HG: For a long time.
YV: Fall 2012.
HG: Okay. So, [00:17:18] what is this festival called?
YV: So, I’m going home because I want to go to the St. Charles Borromeo Festival. It’s their international food festival, so every year it is, it’s a tradition at this point. I know it’s been going on since at least the mid to early 2000s. So, it’s been quite a few years. In fact, my when I was in high school, my sisters and some of our friends performed dances at this, like traditional Mayan dances, at this event. So, it’s basically this gathering of the different communities in the church to share their culture through food. I mentioned in the interview back in 2013 that my home church, or Morganton actually, has a large Mayan community and a large Hmong community in addition to African American and White. And so, St. Charles Borromeo reflect that diversity and even when you include the diversity within, you know, white people, they do have cultures of their own. So, we have people that identify with their Irish, Polish, German heritage. So, this festival is a great way for these communities to come together and they all in the mass hall that we have, you have just dozens of tables and booths that have the names of the countries that are being represented and the food that’s going to be sold there. And it’s all pretty cheap. So, you can walk around and you’ll have Vietnamese, Hmong, different food from different regions of Guatemala. Polish. German. Spanish. And just, you get to sample all of these different foods. It started out as mainly the church members coming out to it, but as the years have gone by more and more community members are attending this even if they don’t go to St. Charles Borromeo. I love it. I think it’s an organic way of, kind of bringing different people together.
HG: Do you think that other people come just because it’s become famous? Or do you think the church does a lot of outreach to try to get others to come?
YV: I think it’s become famous. I actually don’t know if the church publishes it. I mean, we have a local newspaper. I’m sure maybe there’s a little blurb about it, but it’s not as if you know, we’re using up, as far as I know. Maybe this has changes in six years, but I don’t think that the church purchases air space or puts ads on their radios or anything. It’s really just a sign and so, the mass hall itself has a lot of the food and there are booths set up outside. So, it’s grown. This is the other amazing part. Each year more and more vendors have signed up to sell food. So, there are vendors outside and the cultural performances either from, you know, the Hmong group, the Mayan group, the Mexican, whoever it might be. We had a German choral group I think come in the past. There is an outside space in the parking lot where performances happen so you can see that from the street if you’re driving by that there is something going on there. There’s performances. There’s food. You know. And I think that has attracted passersby.
HG: I mean it sounds like it’s just a celebration of people’s immigrant ancestry.
YV: Yeah.
HG: For some people that was many generations ago, others more recent, but it’s really a space where you know, it’s not--. The focus isn’t all on the newest immigrant communities but it’s all through thinking about how everybody has that connection? Most almost everybody?
YV: Yes. Yes. It’s not just--. Yes. You’re right. It’s not just the new immigrants. You will have members of the church, you know, that have gone to St. Charles their whole lives and they’re there with their booths. I love it because it’s one of the earliest examples of a celebration of multiculturalism and, you know, it being celebrated. I remember people after my sisters and I would perform, they’d be like, oh my god that was so great! And it wasn’t just Guatemalan people saying it, you know. You have members from the community saying. well I love your traje. Well they didn’t know it was a traje, but I love your outfit [laughing]. That was so great! And it’s just very affirming.
HG: When did it start? Do you know what year it started?
YV: I don’t know the year it started.
HG: When were you first involved with it?
YV: I want to say it was 2005.
HG: Oh, wow. So that’s like a long time. That’s almost [inaudible].
YV: And that’s, right. I don’t know if that was when it began. I just know that was probably the year that my family started going.
HG: Okay. [00:21:49] What are your favorite dishes?
YV: Oh, my goodness. [laughs].
HG: [laughs].
YV: So, I like the pupusas and my--. Oh, I have to say that my favorite is probably the Hmong egg rolls. I don’t know how the women in the community make them but they’re just so crispy on the outside and juicy on the inside and they come with a nice little dipping sauce. So, the Hmong egg rolls are my favorite. And then beyond that I like the pupusas and then the tamales.
HG: Who makes the pupusas?
YV: It depends. So, there is a--. Oh, again this is six years ago, but there is a lady who is Salvadorian and she made them. I don’t remember her name. But she would, she actually used to sell them out of the trunk of her car after mass on Sundays and so she would have a booth. So, I remember that I liked her pupusas. And then the tamales it depends. Different women will sign up or different church ministries will also sponsor booths. I remember that my mom was, or she is still a Eucharistic Minister at church, and so her ministry, like the women would split up. Who’s going to make the pupusas, or who’s going to make the tamales and the rice and the beans? So, sometimes I don’t know who made it. I just know that it was someone in that ministry.
HG: Wow. Oh, you’re making me hungry. [laughs].
YV: I am very excited. [laughs].
HG: Awesome. Alright, well that sounds like an amazing event and I know you’re going to have a great time and get to catch up with everybody tomorrow. Maybe we can wind up a little bit with talking about, you know, whether there are still--. Are there still--. [00:23:32] Are there folks from Guatemala still moving to Morganton? Is it still a draw for people for new migrants or is it mostly people who have settled and lived there for more than ten years? Twenty years? What’s your sense of that?
YV: So, I don’t have a great sense of that because I have been gone. But, I do hear new people at church that I didn’t know when I was there. And so, they must be coming. That’s my logical conclusion. As for why they’re coming, the biggest reason that I’ve heard so far is that they’re someone’s comadre, compadre, or cousin or you know, relative. So, I think the family ties is still a draw. Historically it was the furniture industry and the availability of jobs. But, I--. That is no longer a big draw anymore. So, I’m curious to see what kind of employment. I know that Case Farms is still operating there. And, it’s still not doing the best job in terms of workers’ rights. So, I will be curious to see if that is still causing some employment pull. But, I don’t know. That’s actually something I hope to kind of ask around and find out. You know, where are you working?
HG: Yeah. Do many of your friends and families and neighbors, growing up who originally moved from Guatemala or other parts of the United States originally from Guatemala, have many folks returned? Or returned to Guatemala or are they pretty much permanently settled in Morganton?
YV: They’re pretty much permanently settled especially because my parents’ generation was the first generation to move into Morganton. There are a couple of elders who are, who could be technically my parents’ parents and there’s just a handful of them and they’re here. Most of that initial generation, the immigrant group, that generation of immigrants has stayed and it’s because they have children and family and grandkids here. So, I don’t, yeah. I don’t see them leaving. I only know one man that moved back to Guatemala to be with his family because he had left them to come work here and he decided he wanted to return to be back with them. But most others, especially that get married here and have kids here, they stay.
HG: [00:26:03] Are the younger generations still speaking Mayan?
YV: Yeah. So, it’s hit or miss. And I think that this is a trend that you see with a lot of immigrant groups. So, my generation is hit or miss. So, all of my parents’ generations does still speak a Mayan language. I, myself, do not. I can understand some of the words in Q’anjob’al that my parents speak. But, not all of them. And then I look at you know, some of the kids I grew up playing and they do still speak Q’anjob’al with their parents so it’s really contextual. I think it depends on the family and how much the parents continue to speak in Q’anjob’al with their children. I know with my family, I mean, we didn’t grow up in Morganton. We moved around from California then Tennessee and my parents had a lot of Mexican friends and so I was exposed to Spanish a lot more. So, I adapted Spanish and adopted it very quickly and I think I lost Q’anjob’al along the way. I don’t even know if I understood it. I don’t remember being able to fluently speak it and I found Spanish so much more practical in everyday life, that I haven’t had to learn Q’anjob’al because my parents speak Q’anjob’al as their second language. But, then I look at you know, my friend who speaks it fluently to her mom and I’m like what! I’m envious that you know, she still has that ability. But, interestingly enough, her Spanish is not as good as mine so it’s, you know. I think it just depends on the family and then I have some friends that can speak all three just fine. So, I don’t know what makes the difference there.
HG: That’s really interesting that I guess, so part of your theory is that maybe you weren’t exposed, you moved around a lot, and so you didn’t have the exposure of a community with a lot of people, a lot of parents, neighbors’ parents, friends’ parents that were speaking Q’anjob’al.
YV: Right.
HG: And so maybe that, it helped to have a community of speakers that reinforce the language.
YV: Right.
HG: And if you were moving more that may not have happened.
YV: Right. Because I think, now that I’m thinking about it, so it’s a family of--. The two older ones speak Q’anjob’al better than the younger ones and I think about it and its--. Their whole family is here. They have some aunts and uncles in the area. They’ve got cousins. They’ve got their parents obviously, and even their grandparents and they grew up here in North Carolina and so, yes. Q’anjob’al was all around. They heard it much more than Spanish. And I did not get that because my parents were the only ones, at least initially, were the only ones in the U.S. I have two of my uncles here in the U.S. But you know, they’re not nearby. They’re in Indiana. We did not have Q’anjob’al all around us. It was just from my parents.
HG: Well, thank you so much Yesi, for following up. This is actually a really important thing to be able to follow up with interviews several years later and to hear, you know, you’ve done so much and you’ve accomplished so much. And you just have a whole career ahead of you at UNC.
YV: [laughs]. I hope so.
HG: Thank you so much. Thank you so much for the interview.
YV: Oh! Thanks for having me. I’m excited and who knows, maybe years down the road I’ll have much more to tell you about how Morganton has developed, where I am in education. We’ll see.
HG: Sounds good. Alright, I’ll see you in five years. [laughs].
YV: [laughs]. Thank you. [END OF INTERVIEW]
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Educadores
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Temas
Cultura; Educación Básica y Media; Comida; Poblaciones Indígenas; Educación Superior
Es: Transcripción
Hannah Gill: Okay. Well, let’s get started. I’m here with Yesenia Pedro Vicente. This is Hannah Gill. It is November 2nd, 2018. Thank you so much, Yesi, for being here to do this interview. This is a follow-up interview, in a way, to an interview that you did in 2013 with Joel Hage as part of the APPLES Global Course Guanajuato here at UNC Chapel Hill. And that interview focused a lot on identity, and you talk a lot about different ways that you identify and you’ve done a whole lot since graduating here at UNC so, we’ll explore a little bit of that throughout this interview. So, thank you so much for being here. Yesenia Vicente: Oh, yes. [laughs]. I’m glad to be here.
HG: And you have--. I have your consent to record the interview?
YV: Yes. You do.
HG: Okay. Great. So, I wanted, maybe you can share with us about what have you been doing since you have graduated in what year?
YV: 2013.
HG: 2013.
YV: Yes.
HG: [00:01:12] You’ve been doing a lot so share where you’ve been travelling and working.
YV: Yeah. So right after graduating I moved out to Phoenix, Arizona. I was accepted to Teach for America. So, I was a Phoenix 2013 core member. And so, I moved out to be a high school teacher. I started teaching Spanish. Mainly because I was a native speaker, and so my admin at the time said, okay, you know, how do you feel about teaching Spanish? And I was a little hesitant because I’ve never studied Spanish formally. But, I, you know. You’re fresh out of college and it’s your first job offer and you know, you’re ambitious so you say yes. So, I accepted the offer and I began teaching Spanish. And I had to teach myself along the way but I built a really good relationship with my students and I know that I care about education and helping underrepresented minorities succeed and I was working in south Phoenix with a school that served you kn--. It was Title One. It served low income, about ninety to ninety-five percent Mexican-American student population. It was very small. So, I did that my first two years. I also started teaching AP English my second- or my second year. So, after finishing up my two-year commitment with teach for America, I stayed to teach a third year and taught out in the west valley at another high school this time. My real passion is in English language arts. And so, I taught freshman, sophomore, regular level English. And then, I had postponed a scholarship that I had as an undergrad to the limit that I could. And so, it’s the Gates Millennium Scholars Program. And so, I had postponed that or deferred that scholarship for three years and I ran out of time. So, I needed to basically use it up and so I decided to pursue my Masters in Education. Again, because I know that I want to work in education. Not a hundred percent sure yet where, but I do. So, I started my master’s program. I left teaching because I realized that balancing teaching and a full time Master’s program was a lot. So, I was the manager of a college access program for two years. And this program had amazing, and still has--. It’s a program that I very much believe in. It has great results in terms of working with low-income, first gen college bound high school students. Both in Phoenix and in Tucson. But after a couple of years of--. I mean, it’d been five years where I had been going home once or twice a year. Just making the flight and having the time to make the flight worth it to come back to North Carolina to see my family, made it so I came only once or twice a year. And so, I realized that I wanted to be closer to my family. And so, I decided to start applying for jobs. I do care about college access. I think that wherever my career goes I will be working with young adults. And so, my thought process was, okay, well. I’ve worked now with freshman and sophomore students. Juniors. College bound, so juniors and seniors. Let’s try working with college students. Let’s see how I can support students because the research shows that more and more underrepresented minorities are accessing college. The issue is that retention and graduation. So, I started looking for jobs where I can support in student affairs. Because, I do believe in the whole student development where we can have academic resources and support, but we also need to figure out how we can support students beyond the classroom. And so, I got this position where I’m at now as the coordination for a diversity program in the graduate school. You know, I’m three months in and it's going pretty well so far. [smiles]. I am trying to figure out, you know, how I can better serve students but I’m also just learning the ropes.
HG: Yeah. Right. You just got started so--
YV: Yes.
HG: Well, I can say we’re—. I’m so excited that you’re back at UNC and that we are colleagues now.
YV: Yes!
HG: It’s really cool.
YV: Me too. [laughs].
HG: Alright. So, let’s see. So, you talked about what you did in Arizona, but [00:05:48] I wondered if you could reflect upon just the shift from growing up in Morganton, in the foothills of North Carolina and the shift to moving to Arizona where communities with Latin American heritage are so much larger. So, can you reflect upon that? What was that like for you? This change?
YV: Yes. So, that was a great change. I love Phoenix. I will always love Phoenix. So, growing up in Western North Carolina, right in the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains, I was lucky to have been raised in a, what feels to me like a significant, in a large-minded community. And, feeling that every weekend you know, I had this community available. My parents had their comadres and compadres. And you know, we’d have these social gatherings. So, coming to UNC, I knew always that I was a minority. And even in my classes in my high school. Just going back to that for a second. I was the only Latina in my honors and gifted classes and AP classes. So, I know that. And I knew that I am a minority but coming to UNC it’s--. It became much more obvious just in terms of walking around, seeing students, and realizing that you know, there isn’t a Mayan community. And also, if I go into the general identity of being Latina, there weren’t that many Latina or Latinx students. The majority was white and then the next minority groups at least from my perspective was African American. And then, Asian, and then it would be Latino students in terms of population size. So, moving to Phoenix where there is such a large Mexican-American predominantly population, but Latino in general, it was really exciting to walk around and seeing billboards that were bilingual and knowing that I could read both of them. And understand both of them. And once I understood my Spanish grammar better, like [laughs] actually correct sometimes where a missing accent mark was. It was just really, how do I describe it? Affirming of who I am and of how many similarities I had with my Mexican students or Mexican-American students where, you know, we did know some common pop culture references or had some similar jokes and I could joke with them and throw out Spanish words and they got it. And they’d be like, Miss! You know about this? And seeing them get excited that their educator had similar background to them. That was very rewarding and I just enjoyed seeing more people who looked like me. And so, moving back to North Carolina, it has suddenly made me realize, oh I’m back into black and white space. And so, what I had to do the last couple of months is basically go church hopping to the different Spanish masses in the triangle area to try to find a--. One, a church that I like with priests that I like that, you know, whose preaching style I prefer with good music, but also, you know, that have a significant Latino community. So, I have found that. You know, I go now to St. Thomas More which is a church near campus actually where I enjoy the music. I enjoy just being surrounded by Latino families. And you know, I don’t know many of them yet, so I don’t know which countries specifically, but that’s kind of my way of touching back with the Latino community because I feel like it’s not as prevalent here and so I see that gap. I feel that gap. Coming back here.
HG: [00:09:46] Did having the experience of going to Mexico as part of the course that you took, APPLES Global Course Guanajuato, did going there and having that experience in Guanajuato, was that something that you thought you could relate more to your students with Mexican-American or Mexican heritage? Did you--. Were you able to--.
YV: I--. It helped me. Yes. It helped me in the sense that, honestly, it helped my better understand Mexican geography because Mexico is such a large country. And so, if I had any students that were from Guanajuato, or surrounding areas, I could be like, oh I know where that is! Sometimes they would ask me and I would have no idea where their town or city is from. But, letting them know that I had been there, they thought was very fascinating. A lot of my students go back pretty regularly to Mexico so it was pretty cool to hear their stories. I think that the trip to Guanajuato was more impactful for me, just in a general level with--. I think that comparing Mexican culture with Guatemalan and Mayan culture, so when I think back about the Guanajuato course or back to it, I love the city of Guanajuato. It felt so, how can I describe it? So rich in culture and architecture and honestly, you know, with the museums and the plazas it felt so wealthy in many ways. And that is something that I remember being impressed by because Guatemala, at least where I have travelled to or where my grandparents are rom is very rural and it’s in the mountains and its, you know, these small concrete houses. They’re still some of the original houses made of adobe and wood. And so, it was interesting for me to see woah, there is a part of Latin American that looks so rich. But then, when we went to El Gusano in the more rural parts, in Guanajuato, I remember feeling much more familiar with that environment and that was very interesting for me to also know and understand that there are rural parts. Mexico is not rich. I know that. I understand that. But, Guanajuato the capital, or the city made me realize that woah, there can be a lot of wealth and then there is also such a huge disparity with the rural areas. A lot of my students came from both. Some of them were from wealthier families in Mexico who had migrated to the U.S. and others were from the rural areas. And now that I think about it, yeah! I mean, we talked about that too. I can relate to some students who were like my family isn’t rich. And I was like, mine isn’t either. And I felt like I could relate to them more to the students that you know, came from a wealthy family in Mexico.
HG: Thanks. That’s interesting. So, maybe we can talk a little bit about the place where you’re from, Morganton. And you’ve lived, well, you’ve lived there for most of your first part of your life.
YV: [laughs] Right.
HG: And of course, you’ve been off doing really exciting things in different parts of the country and the world since then, but it’s now been what? Thirty or forty years that Morganton is having [sudden thump]. Communities of folks from all over Latin America particularly from Guatemala and it’s not necessarily a community of new immigrants anymore. Your family was among the first that moved there. [00:13:24] And I’m just wondering if you could reflect upon what Morgan--. How Morganton has changed over the years?
YV: Yes. So, Morganton it has grown. And that is something that I, while I was in college and even gone to Phoenix, didn’t really see because I was always traveling or you know, at school, or out of state. But every time I came home I kept--. When we could drive around, I kept catching myself asking, wait what is that? What’s new? So, over the last, I would say over the last ten years, I would say Morganton has developed a lot more. There is a new shopping center with a super Walmart and Applebee’s and frozen yogurt and I think a Lowes or Home Depot that has grown. And, downtown there are a couple of breweries that weren’t there before until you’re seeing this city actually--I’d always thought of it as a town, right? It didn’t seem like a city to me but it is becoming more developed. And I would be interested to, you know, find out what’s driving that economic growth. I think that growing up I heard a lot that it was a retiree community but I would be interested to see how these generations of immigrants have also contributed to that economic growth. I think that when I think about my classmates, a lot of people from my high school and the other high school in the county stay. I mean, some of us left, and now still live in North Carolina or Virginia. You know, neighboring states. But a good number of students have stayed there and especially when I look back and think about you know, my childhood friends, the people that I went to church with, you know, members of the Mayan communities. Most of the young adults who are either you know, still in high school or have graduated and are now attending community college, most have stayed and they’re starting to establish their own families. And some of my good friends from high school have multiple children now and they’re still there. So, Morganton itself as a city has grown a lot and I do think that some of the growth is due to, you know, that this increasingly young population in a town that historically was a retirement community, and was a lot of older white people.
HG: Yeah. Sure. [00:16:00] Are your friends or your neighbors or folks that you know, young folks, are they finding employment opportunities in Morganton that would enable them to stay there?
YV: So, that is a great question. They are from what I can tell. A lot of this has had to be through Facebook because I haven’t really been around to catch up but I’m seeing that my friends or my peers work in, they’re either working in fast food or retail or in the pharmacies. So, I have a friend who’s a pharmacy tech. Another, it’s her sister is in the nursing program at the community college and is working as a CNA in the hospital. So, they’re either finding work in the hospital or in medicine it seems. Pharmacies or it’s in the retail sector.
HG: So, I know that you’re super excited about going home tomorrow?
YV: Mhm. Yes. I leave tonight, actually.
HG: I know you’re really excited about going home. You haven’t been… When’s the last time you were in Morganton? You’ve probably been home more recently, but you haven’t been to this particular celebration?
YV: Festival.
HG: Festival that you’re excited about going to at your church.
YV: Yes!
HG: For a long time.
YV: Fall 2012.
HG: Okay. So, [00:17:18] what is this festival called?
YV: So, I’m going home because I want to go to the St. Charles Borromeo Festival. It’s their international food festival, so every year it is, it’s a tradition at this point. I know it’s been going on since at least the mid to early 2000s. So, it’s been quite a few years. In fact, my when I was in high school, my sisters and some of our friends performed dances at this, like traditional Mayan dances, at this event. So, it’s basically this gathering of the different communities in the church to share their culture through food. I mentioned in the interview back in 2013 that my home church, or Morganton actually, has a large Mayan community and a large Hmong community in addition to African American and White. And so, St. Charles Borromeo reflect that diversity and even when you include the diversity within, you know, white people, they do have cultures of their own. So, we have people that identify with their Irish, Polish, German heritage. So, this festival is a great way for these communities to come together and they all in the mass hall that we have, you have just dozens of tables and booths that have the names of the countries that are being represented and the food that’s going to be sold there. And it’s all pretty cheap. So, you can walk around and you’ll have Vietnamese, Hmong, different food from different regions of Guatemala. Polish. German. Spanish. And just, you get to sample all of these different foods. It started out as mainly the church members coming out to it, but as the years have gone by more and more community members are attending this even if they don’t go to St. Charles Borromeo. I love it. I think it’s an organic way of, kind of bringing different people together.
HG: Do you think that other people come just because it’s become famous? Or do you think the church does a lot of outreach to try to get others to come?
YV: I think it’s become famous. I actually don’t know if the church publishes it. I mean, we have a local newspaper. I’m sure maybe there’s a little blurb about it, but it’s not as if you know, we’re using up, as far as I know. Maybe this has changes in six years, but I don’t think that the church purchases air space or puts ads on their radios or anything. It’s really just a sign and so, the mass hall itself has a lot of the food and there are booths set up outside. So, it’s grown. This is the other amazing part. Each year more and more vendors have signed up to sell food. So, there are vendors outside and the cultural performances either from, you know, the Hmong group, the Mayan group, the Mexican, whoever it might be. We had a German choral group I think come in the past. There is an outside space in the parking lot where performances happen so you can see that from the street if you’re driving by that there is something going on there. There’s performances. There’s food. You know. And I think that has attracted passersby.
HG: I mean it sounds like it’s just a celebration of people’s immigrant ancestry.
YV: Yeah.
HG: For some people that was many generations ago, others more recent, but it’s really a space where you know, it’s not--. The focus isn’t all on the newest immigrant communities but it’s all through thinking about how everybody has that connection? Most almost everybody?
YV: Yes. Yes. It’s not just--. Yes. You’re right. It’s not just the new immigrants. You will have members of the church, you know, that have gone to St. Charles their whole lives and they’re there with their booths. I love it because it’s one of the earliest examples of a celebration of multiculturalism and, you know, it being celebrated. I remember people after my sisters and I would perform, they’d be like, oh my god that was so great! And it wasn’t just Guatemalan people saying it, you know. You have members from the community saying. well I love your traje. Well they didn’t know it was a traje, but I love your outfit [laughing]. That was so great! And it’s just very affirming.
HG: When did it start? Do you know what year it started?
YV: I don’t know the year it started.
HG: When were you first involved with it?
YV: I want to say it was 2005.
HG: Oh, wow. So that’s like a long time. That’s almost [inaudible].
YV: And that’s, right. I don’t know if that was when it began. I just know that was probably the year that my family started going.
HG: Okay. [00:21:49] What are your favorite dishes?
YV: Oh, my goodness. [laughs].
HG: [laughs].
YV: So, I like the pupusas and my--. Oh, I have to say that my favorite is probably the Hmong egg rolls. I don’t know how the women in the community make them but they’re just so crispy on the outside and juicy on the inside and they come with a nice little dipping sauce. So, the Hmong egg rolls are my favorite. And then beyond that I like the pupusas and then the tamales.
HG: Who makes the pupusas?
YV: It depends. So, there is a--. Oh, again this is six years ago, but there is a lady who is Salvadorian and she made them. I don’t remember her name. But she would, she actually used to sell them out of the trunk of her car after mass on Sundays and so she would have a booth. So, I remember that I liked her pupusas. And then the tamales it depends. Different women will sign up or different church ministries will also sponsor booths. I remember that my mom was, or she is still a Eucharistic Minister at church, and so her ministry, like the women would split up. Who’s going to make the pupusas, or who’s going to make the tamales and the rice and the beans? So, sometimes I don’t know who made it. I just know that it was someone in that ministry.
HG: Wow. Oh, you’re making me hungry. [laughs].
YV: I am very excited. [laughs].
HG: Awesome. Alright, well that sounds like an amazing event and I know you’re going to have a great time and get to catch up with everybody tomorrow. Maybe we can wind up a little bit with talking about, you know, whether there are still--. Are there still--. [00:23:32] Are there folks from Guatemala still moving to Morganton? Is it still a draw for people for new migrants or is it mostly people who have settled and lived there for more than ten years? Twenty years? What’s your sense of that?
YV: So, I don’t have a great sense of that because I have been gone. But, I do hear new people at church that I didn’t know when I was there. And so, they must be coming. That’s my logical conclusion. As for why they’re coming, the biggest reason that I’ve heard so far is that they’re someone’s comadre, compadre, or cousin or you know, relative. So, I think the family ties is still a draw. Historically it was the furniture industry and the availability of jobs. But, I--. That is no longer a big draw anymore. So, I’m curious to see what kind of employment. I know that Case Farms is still operating there. And, it’s still not doing the best job in terms of workers’ rights. So, I will be curious to see if that is still causing some employment pull. But, I don’t know. That’s actually something I hope to kind of ask around and find out. You know, where are you working?
HG: Yeah. Do many of your friends and families and neighbors, growing up who originally moved from Guatemala or other parts of the United States originally from Guatemala, have many folks returned? Or returned to Guatemala or are they pretty much permanently settled in Morganton?
YV: They’re pretty much permanently settled especially because my parents’ generation was the first generation to move into Morganton. There are a couple of elders who are, who could be technically my parents’ parents and there’s just a handful of them and they’re here. Most of that initial generation, the immigrant group, that generation of immigrants has stayed and it’s because they have children and family and grandkids here. So, I don’t, yeah. I don’t see them leaving. I only know one man that moved back to Guatemala to be with his family because he had left them to come work here and he decided he wanted to return to be back with them. But most others, especially that get married here and have kids here, they stay.
HG: [00:26:03] Are the younger generations still speaking Mayan?
YV: Yeah. So, it’s hit or miss. And I think that this is a trend that you see with a lot of immigrant groups. So, my generation is hit or miss. So, all of my parents’ generations does still speak a Mayan language. I, myself, do not. I can understand some of the words in Q’anjob’al that my parents speak. But, not all of them. And then I look at you know, some of the kids I grew up playing and they do still speak Q’anjob’al with their parents so it’s really contextual. I think it depends on the family and how much the parents continue to speak in Q’anjob’al with their children. I know with my family, I mean, we didn’t grow up in Morganton. We moved around from California then Tennessee and my parents had a lot of Mexican friends and so I was exposed to Spanish a lot more. So, I adapted Spanish and adopted it very quickly and I think I lost Q’anjob’al along the way. I don’t even know if I understood it. I don’t remember being able to fluently speak it and I found Spanish so much more practical in everyday life, that I haven’t had to learn Q’anjob’al because my parents speak Q’anjob’al as their second language. But, then I look at you know, my friend who speaks it fluently to her mom and I’m like what! I’m envious that you know, she still has that ability. But, interestingly enough, her Spanish is not as good as mine so it’s, you know. I think it just depends on the family and then I have some friends that can speak all three just fine. So, I don’t know what makes the difference there.
HG: That’s really interesting that I guess, so part of your theory is that maybe you weren’t exposed, you moved around a lot, and so you didn’t have the exposure of a community with a lot of people, a lot of parents, neighbors’ parents, friends’ parents that were speaking Q’anjob’al.
YV: Right.
HG: And so maybe that, it helped to have a community of speakers that reinforce the language.
YV: Right.
HG: And if you were moving more that may not have happened.
YV: Right. Because I think, now that I’m thinking about it, so it’s a family of--. The two older ones speak Q’anjob’al better than the younger ones and I think about it and its--. Their whole family is here. They have some aunts and uncles in the area. They’ve got cousins. They’ve got their parents obviously, and even their grandparents and they grew up here in North Carolina and so, yes. Q’anjob’al was all around. They heard it much more than Spanish. And I did not get that because my parents were the only ones, at least initially, were the only ones in the U.S. I have two of my uncles here in the U.S. But you know, they’re not nearby. They’re in Indiana. We did not have Q’anjob’al all around us. It was just from my parents.
HG: Well, thank you so much Yesi, for following up. This is actually a really important thing to be able to follow up with interviews several years later and to hear, you know, you’ve done so much and you’ve accomplished so much. And you just have a whole career ahead of you at UNC.
YV: [laughs]. I hope so.
HG: Thank you so much. Thank you so much for the interview.
YV: Oh! Thanks for having me. I’m excited and who knows, maybe years down the road I’ll have much more to tell you about how Morganton has developed, where I am in education. We’ll see.
HG: Sounds good. Alright, I’ll see you in five years. [laughs].
YV: [laughs]. Thank you. [END OF INTERVIEW]
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Es: Resumen
Yesenia Pedro Vicente comparte una segunda entrevista con la iniciativa Nuevas Raíces. Yesenia relata sus experiencias como una maestra en Phoenix, Arizona, durante varios años después de graduarse de la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill en 2013, y luego contrasta entre vivir en Carolina del Norte y el Suroeste de los EEUU, donde hay comunidades más grandes con herencia latinoamericana. Regresó a Carolina del Norte en 2018 para estar más cerca de su familia en el oeste de Carolina del Norte y trabajar en la Escuela de Graduados en UNC Chapel Hill. Yesenia habla sobre el impacto del Curso Global Guanajuato de APPLES en el que participó como una estudiante de la UNC en 2013. Habla sobre su ciudad natal, Morganton, NC, y sobre cómo ha cambiado en los últimos años. Ella describe con entusiasmo el Festival de Comida anual de San Carlos Borromeo en su iglesia en Morganton, donde miembros de la comunidad con diferentes orígenes que incluyen a hmong, guatemalteco, polaco, irlandés y africano se reúnen para celebrar sus herencias.
Es: Citación
Entrevista con Yesenia Pedro Vicente, 02 noviembre 2018, R-0984, en Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill.
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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R-0984 -- Vicente, Yesenia Pedro.
Description
An account of the resource
Yesenia Pedro Vicente shares a second interview with the Nuevas Raíces initiative. Yesenia relates her experiences teaching in Phoenix, Arizona for several years after graduating from UNC in 2013. She draws contrasts between living in North Carolina and the Southwestern U.S., where there are much larger communities with Latin American heritage. She returned to North Carolina in 2018 to be closer to her family in western North Carolina and work in the Graduate School at UNC Chapel Hill. Yesenia discusses the impact of the APPLES Global Course Guanajuato Course that she participated in in 2013 as an undergraduate at UNC. She talks about her hometown, Morganton, NC, and how it has changed in the last few years. She describes with enthusiasm the annual Food Festival of St. Charles Borromeo at her Morganton church, where community members with many different backgrounds that include Hmong, Guatemalan, Polish, Irish, and African come together to celebrate their heritages. Yesenia also describes the importance of her family’s Guatemalan Mayan heritage and her parents’ native language, Q’anjob’al.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-11-02
Publisher
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/28579">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
Format
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R0984_Audio.mp3
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/3bf01ee653ede8a1d71adcd111e224b6.mp3
3300a53fa1d5f53e9bb1d0ae5b6606e7
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/c1bd89c7aa5e1fed9a83642d06e41e55.pdf
5408b79fb3be5825bed8116d0af2ad94
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0905
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
2018-04-23
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Heine, Rebecca.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Students
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Chapel Hill -- North Carolina -- United States
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Chapel Hill -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
De Leon, Carolina.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Rebecca Heines, better known as Becca, recalls her experience on her class trip to Guanajuato in March of 2018 as part of APPLES Global Course Guanajuato (GLBL 390 Latin American Immigrant Perspectives). She explains how various factors influence education in Trancas compared to students in North Carolinian schools. Becca also discusses how her visit to Casa del migrantes impacted her understanding of immigration in Mexico. In this interview, she explains how she was encouraged to learn from everyone she encountered, despite difference in opinions. She describes her journey as very positive and hopes to visit Guanajuato again soon. Both Rebecca Heines and Carolina De Leon are student interviewers working with the New Roots/Nuevas Raíces Oral Histories as part of APPLES Global Course Guanajuato at UNC Chapel Hill. This interview was conducted as part of this course and is intended to provide background and context about some of the individuals who conduct oral histories for the New Roots collection. Their inclusion in the archive is optional and does not impact their grade. Students also travel to Guanajuato, Mexico over Spring break. Carolina de Leon is also volunteering at El Centro Hispano throughout the semester as part of a service-learning requirement to build relationships with immigrant communities. This interview is the 2nd of 2 interviews. The 1st interview focuses on Becca’s work as the mentorship coordinator of North Carolina’s Service Learning Initiative (NC Sli) and a bilingual navigator at the University of North Carolina hospital in Chapel Hill.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Rebecca Heine by Carolina De Leon, 23 April 2018, R-0905, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/27587
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Migratory experience; Separation and reunification; Family; Education; Identity
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Carolina De Leon: [00:00:03] So I’m here today with Becca, again. Today is April 23rd. Becca, do you consent to this interview today?
Becca Heine: Yes, I do.
CD: Perfect. [00:00:18] So Becca, how was your trip to Mexico?
BH: I think my trip to Mexico was really great. It was a really good balance of activities where we learned a lot about migration and just had fun activities so we didn’t get too burnt out from learning all the time. Before this trip, I knew a lot about the experience of immigrants once they reached the U.S. but I hadn’t really seen it first-hand the other side of that experience, which is the families and communities they’re leaving behind and how those communities deal with the comings and goings of people. I think that this trip was really full circle for me. I got to learn about the other side of everything that I hadn’t been exposed to before.
CD: Awesome. [00:01:31] So how did you feel when you came back from Mexico?
BH: Coming back from Mexico felt a little bit overwhelming at first cause I got back and I was really nervous about letting this experience fall through my fingers and not carrying it with me as I move forward. When I got back it was the first time that I had personal time in a week. I tried to just chill by myself for a little bit and reflect through my thoughts and read through my journal entries and add anything in that I hadn’t time or I’ve been too sleepy or distracted by other people to add. I definitely felt nervous that I was going to forget important details or not effectively apply my experience in the best way to my life and studies moving forward.
CD: Okay. How was your experience with the children of Trancas?
BH: [00:02:57] My experience with the children of Trancas was really interesting. When I first saw that we were going to be teaching English classes I was skeptical and honestly it was one of the things I was looking forward to the least because we had learned a lot about “voluntourism” and I’ve learned a lot about it previously and I was feeling a little nervous that it was going to be like that and I didn’t really want to convey that to Trancas community. But once the principal of the school seemed really excited about us coming in I felt a little better about it. It ended being a lot more interesting than I thought it would be. My group was with the younger kids and we played this game where everyone got in a circle and we passed the ball between each kid. Each kid took turns telling us about what family members they had in the U.S. and what they knew about the U.S. We got to learn a lot more about their interactions with the U.S. and their families’ interactions, which was super interesting. A lot more of them had immediate family in the U.S. then I was expecting. Going into this I was very aware that Trancas has a lot of men go from Trancas to the U.S. for job seeking purposes. I think seeing it first hand and seeing that almost every single kid had a close family member that was gone, and some of them for many years was something that I was not expecting to see first-hand. Teaching English to the children of Trancas was really interesting in that way.
CD: Okay. [00:05:23] After teaching English classes in Mexico, what do you feel like were some of the disadvantages that the children might have had?
BH: I think that like I said before, the vast majority of the children had multiple significant members of their family missing. I think that it’s really hard to grow up without a complete support system and feel like a large portion of your support system and someone you care about is far away. I think that can have negative implications on other parts of your life such as education for example. I think that would be a disadvantage that children may have.
CD: What about advantages? Did you notice anything compared to the U.S. that the children in Mexico might have an advantage over?
BH: [00:6:45] I think from my one-day experience in the school, I felt a greater sense of community than some of the school environments that I had been a part of and witnessed. For example, everyone coming together of all ages and playing soccer. Not all ages, but there was a greater age range on the soccer field than I had experienced in my school. I think there is a greater acceptance of differences. One of the classes had a girl with special needs in it and in the U.S, from my experience, a lot of time they’re pulled out into their own separate class. There seemed to be a joint responsibility that all the students, even though they were six, were taking care of this girl. If the teacher was busy and the girl needed help with something, they would come and run over to help her with what she needed. I think that learning how to work with and care for others and love others who are different from you is a really important skill. I think that the children’s early exposure to that could be an advantage to them in the future on how to be a better member of the world.
CD: Awesome. What are some challenges that Mexican parents face in Mexico that you may have noticed?
BH: I think that a lot of these parents are single parent households with one parent working in the U.S. being far, so I think that that comes with a lot of difficulties. If the one parent is busy, they don’t really have another person to help them care for the child at home unless there’s other relatives around. I think that makes one large challenge. For example, the neighbor of our host house, there’s a little girl who’s 5, her dad left after she was born and came back four years later. The mom essentially raised an infant and toddler by herself for four years, which is definitely a difficult experience and requires a lot of commitment. I think that it definitely poses a large challenge to Mexican parents.
CD: [00:10:11] What is one thing you miss about Mexico?
BH: I miss a lot of things about Mexico. One of my favorite things to do is talk to people I wouldn’t normally talk to and learn from them. I got to do that every day in Mexico and it got me out of my day-to-day routine. It’s so easy to not put your day-to-day routine, I’m going to learn something new today manner, obviously I do but when I’m just walking from school to class sometimes I’m not being aware of looking around, I’m just trying to get to class. I think that I miss out on taking in a lot of my surroundings and I think it was really fun for a week to be observant and take in as much as possible everything around me and I really miss that. I also really miss the food because it was yummy.
CD: What is one thing that you didn’t like about Mexico or about the trip? Anything you want to say about that? If you don’t like that question, we can skip it.
BH: I think that I didn’t eat that many vegetables because we weren’t allowed to eat certain things in case it was washed with unfiltered water. Normally, my diet is very different and more vegetable based when I’m here so that took a little while to get used too. [00:12:18] A lot of people on the trip were feeling sick because of stuff they ate. That was definitely one of the harder aspects of the trip. Also, I get antsy sometimes when I was cooped up in that van for a long time. I was like, I need to get out and run. I was kind of nervous because I didn’t know if it was socially acceptable but one night I just did it anyway. I heard I was talked about in the town; someone’s host sibling came back and said “there was this girl running around”. It was a very happy balance between getting out of your comfort zone and out of your routine but also keeping certain aspects that make you feel like a happy sane human. Finding that balance was definitely difficult at times. I was trying my best to find it on the trip. When I was abroad in Ecuador, I could find that balance better but when you’re moving around and don’t really get to stay in a place for more than a couple of days, it’s a lot harder to figure out that balance, out of your comfort zone but still within a certain amount.
CD: Would you consider attending the University of Guanajuato after visiting?
BH: Absolutely! We did that tour and I was like “oh my gosh, if only I had time in my schedule to do a second gap/ abroad semester”. The University of Guanajuato seemed really cool and the girls who were giving us the tours and the random people we met who went to the University all seemed really nice. I think that would have been a really cool experience, definitely very different from my experience in Ecuador. All my friends in Ecuador live with their families and very close to campus. The girls we met didn’t, they lived in a house together and I’m sure a lot of the people there do live with their families. Maybe the majority, I don’t know. I think that it would have been a different experience and I would have probably learned a lot of different things about the Mexican culture that I don’t know. It was really cool, I’m glad we go and to do that tour. That was one of my favorite parts of the trip.
CD: Did you learn anything new about migration/immigration on your trip?
BH: I think one of the things that I learned about that was most interesting for me was when we went to casa del migrantes, the first full day of the trip. After I read the itinerary, this was the part of the trip that I was most excited about in advance just because I had read this book in one of my classes two years ago, History of Latinos in the U.S…
CD: Who was your professor?
BH: I can’t remember. I read this book that talked about riding the train rails through Mexico and the experience that migrants had with that. Before I read that book, I hadn’t really thought of it as Central American people are also technically not supposed to be in Mexico and they get deported from Mexico. Obviously that makes sense, but we only hear people crossing our border and that’s a very egocentric perspective for me. I was kind of embarrassed; I didn’t realize that obviously they are not allowed in other countries too. I think that that book definitely shaped my interest in immigration and kind of got me started. I think I took it sophomore year and that’s when I became more interested in it. [00:16:55] The book talked about some of the very difficult experiences that Central American migrants face even in Mexico and the crimes committed against them because they are so discouraged from reporting them. People take advantage of the fact they’re so discouraged from reporting them because they’re afraid of getting deported or not want to complete their journey. The book talked about sexual violence against women, different robberies, and things like that. I thought it was interesting and I remember that one of the things that struck me was how the coyotes would give condoms to the women that they’re transporting and tell them if someone tries to approach them in a sexual way that they shouldn’t even resist and try to give them the condom to use so they didn’t spread STDS. To me that was very interesting that women would just go on this journey knowing that that was a risk they had to take and being okay with that. In their minds it was worth it that some kind of sexual violence would happen to them during this journey. This acceptance of crime committed against people who are at risk position because they can’t report crime I think is very interesting how other people take advantage of peoples weak spots or conditions for their own personal gain in whatever way, shape, or form that may be. I thought that was really interesting because it was the first time I learned about the Central American migrant experience. In Mexico, I had only known about the experience of people once they came to the U.S. so for me that’s why I was really interested in la Casa del Migrantes because I had heard a lot about it and how people rode the trains and had to find places of shelter on the way. I had read about some of these types of safe houses in that book which very much sparked my interest in immigration. To go to one myself felt very full circle for me. I think one thing that really surprised me was the map that they had on the wall. I can’t even imagine how long it took to create this map; it must have been completely word of mouth like where is safe and not safe to stay, they must have heard through people who passed through. The map has railroad lines and different shelters that were safe in regards to human trafficking and different things. It also had mapped amenities that each shelter provided. I didn’t really know that this laid out system had existed. Honestly, I thought it was incredible someone had taken the time, a group of people, because you couldn’t single handedly undertaken that. It reminded me a lot of the Underground Railroad, which is really interesting. It’s like these safe houses spread by word of mouth, pathways that people can go. I thought that was really interesting and I hadn’t really known about that before. I had known about some aspects of it but I didn’t really know how well organized it was, literally mapped out. For me, it was the most interesting part of the trip to be exposed to. I thought it was interesting.
CD: What was your favorite location or event that we did?
BH: I think that one that I just talked about; the complete immigration related learning experience. Everything is tied to immigration, but the fun thing we did was Guanajuato city, walking around. We went to the salsateca that night and chilling out a little bit more on the last days and taking in more of the culture. I think that was really fun.
CD: Did you accomplish any personal goals in Mexico?
BH: I think for me when we took the time to write out our personal goals in class, [00:22:13] one of my main ones was to remember that you’re not above learning something from anybody else. I think sometimes it’s easy for someone to start talking about something that you kind of know something about, maybe not everything but some awareness of it. Then you start to tune out what they’re saying. Or someone starts talking and you feel like you know more about it than someone else then you don’t fully listen to them. I think that’s something everyone does. It’s something I’ve been more actively, something I’m trying not to do. I think that social situations have become a lot more interesting and especially on this trip it helped me a lot to take the time to listen to people. Even if I don’t agree with what they’re saying, you can still learn something from their perspective. For example, at the hacienda, a lot of us didn’t agree with what he was saying. But we’re still learning about what he was saying and another side of an issue, which is important to understand. No progress can really be made if both sides of an issue are not understood completely. I think that my goal was to try to just keep an open mind and remember that everyone has something to teach me in some way, shape, or form. Also, I tried my best to do that on the trip and I think that I was reasonably successful. I’m sure there were times I was sleepy and zoned out, but I think that I did a honest attempt at that goal.
CD: The last question, [00:24:05] would you go to Guanajuato again?
BH: 100%. It was so fun! I hope I go again. I don’t know when I’ll be able to but I definitely would like to make my way back to Guanajuato without a doubt.
CD: Thank you Becca, I appreciate your time.
BH: Thanks for interviewing me.
END OF INTERVIEW
TRANSCRIBED BY CAROLINA DE LEON
23 APRIL 2018
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Estudiantes
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Rebecca Heines, mejor conocida como Becca, cuenta sobre su experiencia en Guanajuato con sus compañeros de clase. Ella explica como la educación en Trancas es diferente a la de Carolina del Norte. Becca también cuenta como su visita a la Casa del migrante le abrió los ojos a la cruel realidad de la inmigración en Mexico. En esta entrevista, ella explica que aunque a veces tuvo diferencia en opiniones con algunas personas, trato de aprender algo de todo el mundo. Ella cuenta que su viaje a Guanajuato fue muy linda y desea visitar algún dia muy pronto. Ambas Rebecca Heines y Carolina De Leon son estudiantes trabajando con las historias orales de Nuevas Raíces como parte del curso “APPLES Global Course Guanajuato” en la universidad de Carolina del Norte (UNC Chapel Hill). Esta entrevista fue llevo a cabo como parte del curso para proveer un fondo de los individuos quien trabajan con Nuevas Raíces. La inclusión de sus entrevistas es optavivo, y no es parte de su nota en el curso. Los alumnos en el curso tambien viajen a Guanajuato, México durante marzo para una semana. Carolina De Leon sirve como voluntaria en El Centro Hispano durante el semester como parte de un requisito de aprendizaje-servicio para fortalecer relaciones con comunidades de inmigrantes. Esta entrevista es la segunda de dos entrevistas. La primera entrevista se enfoque en las experiencias de Becca como la coordinadora de la mentoría (“mentorships”) en la organización NC Sli, y como una navigadora bilingüe en el hospital de UNC en Chapel Hill.
Es: Temas
Experiencia migratoria; Separación y reunificación; Familia; Educación; Identidad
Es: Transcripción
Carolina De Leon: [00:00:03] So I’m here today with Becca, again. Today is April 23rd. Becca, do you consent to this interview today?
Becca Heine: Yes, I do.
CD: Perfect. [00:00:18] So Becca, how was your trip to Mexico?
BH: I think my trip to Mexico was really great. It was a really good balance of activities where we learned a lot about migration and just had fun activities so we didn’t get too burnt out from learning all the time. Before this trip, I knew a lot about the experience of immigrants once they reached the U.S. but I hadn’t really seen it first-hand the other side of that experience, which is the families and communities they’re leaving behind and how those communities deal with the comings and goings of people. I think that this trip was really full circle for me. I got to learn about the other side of everything that I hadn’t been exposed to before.
CD: Awesome. [00:01:31] So how did you feel when you came back from Mexico?
BH: Coming back from Mexico felt a little bit overwhelming at first cause I got back and I was really nervous about letting this experience fall through my fingers and not carrying it with me as I move forward. When I got back it was the first time that I had personal time in a week. I tried to just chill by myself for a little bit and reflect through my thoughts and read through my journal entries and add anything in that I hadn’t time or I’ve been too sleepy or distracted by other people to add. I definitely felt nervous that I was going to forget important details or not effectively apply my experience in the best way to my life and studies moving forward.
CD: Okay. How was your experience with the children of Trancas?
BH: [00:02:57] My experience with the children of Trancas was really interesting. When I first saw that we were going to be teaching English classes I was skeptical and honestly it was one of the things I was looking forward to the least because we had learned a lot about “voluntourism” and I’ve learned a lot about it previously and I was feeling a little nervous that it was going to be like that and I didn’t really want to convey that to Trancas community. But once the principal of the school seemed really excited about us coming in I felt a little better about it. It ended being a lot more interesting than I thought it would be. My group was with the younger kids and we played this game where everyone got in a circle and we passed the ball between each kid. Each kid took turns telling us about what family members they had in the U.S. and what they knew about the U.S. We got to learn a lot more about their interactions with the U.S. and their families’ interactions, which was super interesting. A lot more of them had immediate family in the U.S. then I was expecting. Going into this I was very aware that Trancas has a lot of men go from Trancas to the U.S. for job seeking purposes. I think seeing it first hand and seeing that almost every single kid had a close family member that was gone, and some of them for many years was something that I was not expecting to see first-hand. Teaching English to the children of Trancas was really interesting in that way.
CD: Okay. [00:05:23] After teaching English classes in Mexico, what do you feel like were some of the disadvantages that the children might have had?
BH: I think that like I said before, the vast majority of the children had multiple significant members of their family missing. I think that it’s really hard to grow up without a complete support system and feel like a large portion of your support system and someone you care about is far away. I think that can have negative implications on other parts of your life such as education for example. I think that would be a disadvantage that children may have.
CD: What about advantages? Did you notice anything compared to the U.S. that the children in Mexico might have an advantage over?
BH: [00:6:45] I think from my one-day experience in the school, I felt a greater sense of community than some of the school environments that I had been a part of and witnessed. For example, everyone coming together of all ages and playing soccer. Not all ages, but there was a greater age range on the soccer field than I had experienced in my school. I think there is a greater acceptance of differences. One of the classes had a girl with special needs in it and in the U.S, from my experience, a lot of time they’re pulled out into their own separate class. There seemed to be a joint responsibility that all the students, even though they were six, were taking care of this girl. If the teacher was busy and the girl needed help with something, they would come and run over to help her with what she needed. I think that learning how to work with and care for others and love others who are different from you is a really important skill. I think that the children’s early exposure to that could be an advantage to them in the future on how to be a better member of the world.
CD: Awesome. What are some challenges that Mexican parents face in Mexico that you may have noticed?
BH: I think that a lot of these parents are single parent households with one parent working in the U.S. being far, so I think that that comes with a lot of difficulties. If the one parent is busy, they don’t really have another person to help them care for the child at home unless there’s other relatives around. I think that makes one large challenge. For example, the neighbor of our host house, there’s a little girl who’s 5, her dad left after she was born and came back four years later. The mom essentially raised an infant and toddler by herself for four years, which is definitely a difficult experience and requires a lot of commitment. I think that it definitely poses a large challenge to Mexican parents.
CD: [00:10:11] What is one thing you miss about Mexico?
BH: I miss a lot of things about Mexico. One of my favorite things to do is talk to people I wouldn’t normally talk to and learn from them. I got to do that every day in Mexico and it got me out of my day-to-day routine. It’s so easy to not put your day-to-day routine, I’m going to learn something new today manner, obviously I do but when I’m just walking from school to class sometimes I’m not being aware of looking around, I’m just trying to get to class. I think that I miss out on taking in a lot of my surroundings and I think it was really fun for a week to be observant and take in as much as possible everything around me and I really miss that. I also really miss the food because it was yummy.
CD: What is one thing that you didn’t like about Mexico or about the trip? Anything you want to say about that? If you don’t like that question, we can skip it.
BH: I think that I didn’t eat that many vegetables because we weren’t allowed to eat certain things in case it was washed with unfiltered water. Normally, my diet is very different and more vegetable based when I’m here so that took a little while to get used too. [00:12:18] A lot of people on the trip were feeling sick because of stuff they ate. That was definitely one of the harder aspects of the trip. Also, I get antsy sometimes when I was cooped up in that van for a long time. I was like, I need to get out and run. I was kind of nervous because I didn’t know if it was socially acceptable but one night I just did it anyway. I heard I was talked about in the town; someone’s host sibling came back and said “there was this girl running around”. It was a very happy balance between getting out of your comfort zone and out of your routine but also keeping certain aspects that make you feel like a happy sane human. Finding that balance was definitely difficult at times. I was trying my best to find it on the trip. When I was abroad in Ecuador, I could find that balance better but when you’re moving around and don’t really get to stay in a place for more than a couple of days, it’s a lot harder to figure out that balance, out of your comfort zone but still within a certain amount.
CD: Would you consider attending the University of Guanajuato after visiting?
BH: Absolutely! We did that tour and I was like “oh my gosh, if only I had time in my schedule to do a second gap/ abroad semester”. The University of Guanajuato seemed really cool and the girls who were giving us the tours and the random people we met who went to the University all seemed really nice. I think that would have been a really cool experience, definitely very different from my experience in Ecuador. All my friends in Ecuador live with their families and very close to campus. The girls we met didn’t, they lived in a house together and I’m sure a lot of the people there do live with their families. Maybe the majority, I don’t know. I think that it would have been a different experience and I would have probably learned a lot of different things about the Mexican culture that I don’t know. It was really cool, I’m glad we go and to do that tour. That was one of my favorite parts of the trip.
CD: Did you learn anything new about migration/immigration on your trip?
BH: I think one of the things that I learned about that was most interesting for me was when we went to casa del migrantes, the first full day of the trip. After I read the itinerary, this was the part of the trip that I was most excited about in advance just because I had read this book in one of my classes two years ago, History of Latinos in the U.S…
CD: Who was your professor?
BH: I can’t remember. I read this book that talked about riding the train rails through Mexico and the experience that migrants had with that. Before I read that book, I hadn’t really thought of it as Central American people are also technically not supposed to be in Mexico and they get deported from Mexico. Obviously that makes sense, but we only hear people crossing our border and that’s a very egocentric perspective for me. I was kind of embarrassed; I didn’t realize that obviously they are not allowed in other countries too. I think that that book definitely shaped my interest in immigration and kind of got me started. I think I took it sophomore year and that’s when I became more interested in it. [00:16:55] The book talked about some of the very difficult experiences that Central American migrants face even in Mexico and the crimes committed against them because they are so discouraged from reporting them. People take advantage of the fact they’re so discouraged from reporting them because they’re afraid of getting deported or not want to complete their journey. The book talked about sexual violence against women, different robberies, and things like that. I thought it was interesting and I remember that one of the things that struck me was how the coyotes would give condoms to the women that they’re transporting and tell them if someone tries to approach them in a sexual way that they shouldn’t even resist and try to give them the condom to use so they didn’t spread STDS. To me that was very interesting that women would just go on this journey knowing that that was a risk they had to take and being okay with that. In their minds it was worth it that some kind of sexual violence would happen to them during this journey. This acceptance of crime committed against people who are at risk position because they can’t report crime I think is very interesting how other people take advantage of peoples weak spots or conditions for their own personal gain in whatever way, shape, or form that may be. I thought that was really interesting because it was the first time I learned about the Central American migrant experience. In Mexico, I had only known about the experience of people once they came to the U.S. so for me that’s why I was really interested in la Casa del Migrantes because I had heard a lot about it and how people rode the trains and had to find places of shelter on the way. I had read about some of these types of safe houses in that book which very much sparked my interest in immigration. To go to one myself felt very full circle for me. I think one thing that really surprised me was the map that they had on the wall. I can’t even imagine how long it took to create this map; it must have been completely word of mouth like where is safe and not safe to stay, they must have heard through people who passed through. The map has railroad lines and different shelters that were safe in regards to human trafficking and different things. It also had mapped amenities that each shelter provided. I didn’t really know that this laid out system had existed. Honestly, I thought it was incredible someone had taken the time, a group of people, because you couldn’t single handedly undertaken that. It reminded me a lot of the Underground Railroad, which is really interesting. It’s like these safe houses spread by word of mouth, pathways that people can go. I thought that was really interesting and I hadn’t really known about that before. I had known about some aspects of it but I didn’t really know how well organized it was, literally mapped out. For me, it was the most interesting part of the trip to be exposed to. I thought it was interesting.
CD: What was your favorite location or event that we did?
BH: I think that one that I just talked about; the complete immigration related learning experience. Everything is tied to immigration, but the fun thing we did was Guanajuato city, walking around. We went to the salsateca that night and chilling out a little bit more on the last days and taking in more of the culture. I think that was really fun.
CD: Did you accomplish any personal goals in Mexico?
BH: I think for me when we took the time to write out our personal goals in class, [00:22:13] one of my main ones was to remember that you’re not above learning something from anybody else. I think sometimes it’s easy for someone to start talking about something that you kind of know something about, maybe not everything but some awareness of it. Then you start to tune out what they’re saying. Or someone starts talking and you feel like you know more about it than someone else then you don’t fully listen to them. I think that’s something everyone does. It’s something I’ve been more actively, something I’m trying not to do. I think that social situations have become a lot more interesting and especially on this trip it helped me a lot to take the time to listen to people. Even if I don’t agree with what they’re saying, you can still learn something from their perspective. For example, at the hacienda, a lot of us didn’t agree with what he was saying. But we’re still learning about what he was saying and another side of an issue, which is important to understand. No progress can really be made if both sides of an issue are not understood completely. I think that my goal was to try to just keep an open mind and remember that everyone has something to teach me in some way, shape, or form. Also, I tried my best to do that on the trip and I think that I was reasonably successful. I’m sure there were times I was sleepy and zoned out, but I think that I did a honest attempt at that goal.
CD: The last question, [00:24:05] would you go to Guanajuato again?
BH: 100%. It was so fun! I hope I go again. I don’t know when I’ll be able to but I definitely would like to make my way back to Guanajuato without a doubt.
CD: Thank you Becca, I appreciate your time.
BH: Thanks for interviewing me.
END OF INTERVIEW
TRANSCRIBED BY CAROLINA DE LEON
23 APRIL 2018
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
Es: Citación
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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R-0905 -- Heine, Rebecca.
Description
An account of the resource
Rebecca Heines, better known as Becca, recalls her experience on her class trip to Guanajuato in March of 2018 as part of APPLES Global Course Guanajuato (GLBL 390 Latin American Immigrant Perspectives). She explains how various factors influence education in Trancas compared to students in North Carolinian schools. Becca also discusses how her visit to Casa del migrantes impacted her understanding of immigration in Mexico. In this interview, she explains how she was encouraged to learn from everyone she encountered, despite difference in opinions. She describes her journey as very positive and hopes to visit Guanajuato again soon. Both Rebecca Heines and Carolina De Leon are student interviewers working with the New Roots/Nuevas Raíces Oral Histories as part of APPLES Global Course Guanajuato at UNC Chapel Hill. This interview was conducted as part of this course and is intended to provide background and context about some of the individuals who conduct oral histories for the New Roots collection. Their inclusion in the archive is optional and does not impact their grade. Students also travel to Guanajuato, Mexico over Spring break. Carolina de Leon is also volunteering at El Centro Hispano throughout the semester as part of a service-learning requirement to build relationships with immigrant communities. This interview is the 2nd of 2 interviews. The 1st interview focuses on Becca’s work as the mentorship coordinator of North Carolina’s Service Learning Initiative (NC Sli) and a bilingual navigator at the University of North Carolina hospital in Chapel Hill.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
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2018-04-23
Format
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R0905_Audio.mp3
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/27587">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/2d095ed1a57c6b61f7adc3aa10ad2a4e.mp3
b87ce9a9b5e60089f9d725bc9d2498e2
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/b70e978e35daa6f53f0e7ea6eb2e9d8a.pdf
3622339e16ed1f27a013262842add4ee
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0904
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
2018-02-15
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Heine, Rebecca.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Students
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Chapel Hill -- North Carolina -- United States
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Chapel Hill -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
De Leon, Carolina.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Rebecca Heines, better known as Becca, serves as the mentorship coordinator of North Carolina’s Service Learning Initiative (NC Sli). She also is a bilingual navigator at the University of North Carolina hospital in Chapel Hill. She discusses her experiences as a college student volunteering with organizations targeted towards the Latinx community. Becca discusses how her social networks and study abroad immersion in Latin America inspired her passion to serve. In this interview, she explains how her experience at NC Sli and as a bilingual navigator has shaped her desire to work in the medical field after graduation. She specifically addresses how stress and mental health impact undocumented high school students education. Although Becca speaks English and Spanish, she shares her challenges of communicating in Spanish effectively with patients. Both Rebecca Heines and Carolina De Leon are student interviewers working with the New Roots/Nuevas Raíces Oral Histories as part of APPLES Global Course Guanajuato at UNC Chapel Hill. This interview was conducted as part of this course and is intended to provide background and context about some of the individuals who conduct oral histories for the New Roots collection. Their inclusion in the archive is optional and does not impact their grade. Students also travel to Guanajuato, Mexico over Spring break. Carolina de Leon is also volunteering at El Centro Hispano throughout the semester as part of a service-learning requirement to build relationships with immigrant communities.This interview is the first of 2 interviews. The 2nd interview focuses on Becca’s experiences in Mexico.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Rebecca Heine by Carolina De Leon, 15 February 2018, R-0904, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/27584
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Community and social services and programs; Education; Social networks; Language and communication
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Carolina De Leon: I’m here today with Becca. I want to make sure that you consent to me interviewing you today and that you’re okay with this happening.
Becca Heine: Yes, I consent.
CD: Okay Becca, so where are you from?
BH: I was born here at UNC hospitals in Chapel Hill. I lived in Durham from when I was born till the first grade. I moved to Chapel Hill from Durham when I was 7 and then I’ve lived in Chapel Hill ever since. I went to high school here at Chapel Hill High. And now I’m still here at UNC, haven’t quite gotten enough. Just kidding I’m kind of ready to get out. Yeah, so I’m very North Carolina born and raised.
CD: Awesome. How old are you?
BH: I am 21.
CD: What are you studying here at UNC?
BH: Here at UNC, [00:00:15] I’ve bounced all over the place from trying to figure out what I wanted my major to be. I came in very science-minded, still am, and I was absent-mindedly following the biology BS track because science is what I’m good at. I was like “maybe I should just do what I’m good at” and I started to question that. I was like (to myself) “maybe there are other things I like; I just have never tried them.” And so I was like okay, I don’t know what I’m good at. I impulsively saw the application process for the UNC Gillings School of Global Public Health. They have a few undergraduate majors through Gillings and the environmental health science one looked pretty cool to me. I’m very interested in how a person – like, how a set environment impacts your health— this is a cool combination of both things I’m interested in, environmental health and inequalities. That would give me a cool way to start taking some of those classes. I did a semester of that program and I really loved it. I decided to go abroad the following year, my junior year spring semester, I went to Ecuador for the semester.
It was the best decision ever but it makes it really hard to fit a—. Essentially I thought I want to go abroad, I’m going to make it happen so I just went abroad. I said I’ll figure out the credits when I get back, which is not the best choice but also if you really want to do something in life, you just got to do it. That was my choice. I did it knowing it was going to be really hard when I came back to finish a 4 semester public health degree in 3 (semesters). Only one other girl in the entire program had gone abroad so I knew it was going to be tough but I can figure it out. I came back and I was hoping that what I wanted to do with my life would all fall into place magically while I was abroad but clearly that didn’t happen. If anything, I had no idea what I wanted to do even more. I came back and I was signing up for classes on Connect Carolina the summer before senior year. I was getting all my classes for that major. The classes were very engineering based so I didn’t really realize until my first semester that I subconsciously taken all the social science classes. I took my hard sciences, physics, chemistries, but all my electives were environmental health and classes that were looking at more social aspects. The undergraduate program is engineering but we take classes with the grad students so it’s very much ( ). As I signed up for all these classes, I was sitting in the living room and I was looking at my Connect Carolina thinking, “I don’t want to be in any of these classes, oh my God”. I was like “Something’s wrong”. Two days before senior year I walked in academic advising saying “I think I made a mistake”. If I change my major to international politics global studies major I can graduate on time. I don’t know how but I’ve already taken a lot of the classes for my general education so it all fit in to that category. My academic advisor said, “You’re right”. So I changed my major two days before senior year. I gave my mom a heart attack but I’ve loved it and honestly this class was one of the main reasons I changed it. I really wanted to take this class and I knew there was no way I could fit it in my schedule if I have my old major. I have my chemistry and biology minors and then I’m majoring in international politics. Everyone always laughs when I say that cause they say, “what are you doing? Your interests are all over the board.”
I’m looking at pre health stuff (classes), it’s very pre-requisite based, so I can major in whatever I want. I’d like to think that medical schools feel that I definitely bring more of an understanding of cultures and issues that others are facing because of my academic background versus someone who is just a biology major. I know a lot of politics surrounding different areas of the world, immigration patterns, and health care policy that many doctors know nothing about. I think that’s important and that’s why I did it. That’s what I’m studying at UNC.
CD: What interested you about NC Sli (Scholars Latinx Initiative) that made you want to join and how did you hear about it?
BH: My pathway to Sli cracks me up how I stumbled upon it and how it became such a huge part of my life. The summer after my freshmen year of college, I did like a summer study abroad program in Santiago Chile. I had a Spanish teacher both semesters freshmen year and she really pushed me to go. She asked me what I was during that summer: “I think this would be great for you to definitely get you ( ) get your Spanish up” the teacher told her.
I mean I’m a freshman, I have no idea what I’m doing this summer. So I said, okay so I did it (went on the trip). On that trip, I met a girl named Nalini. Six UNC students went on the trip and there was Nalini who was nice. She was actually the cousin of my high school friend so we had a little connection before the trip but had never met before. That trip was fun, we ended up becoming Facebook friends. I came back the next semester, fall sophomore year, and I saw Nalini posted something on Facebook about applying to be part of an organization (NC Sli). The deadline was that night at midnight.
Since I had gotten back from Chile, my Spanish was a little bit better. I was looking for ways to get involved in Latinx community. I felt like I can actually do something to contribute. I feel like without the language, it’s hard sometimes. [00:08:29] But it was something I’m passionate about (volunteering) and now I felt like I could actually participate and do things, so this could be cool. I Facebook messaged her and asked her what it was about (NC Sli). She said it was an incredible organization, she had been in it for two years, “you would love it, apply to be a mentor.” So I said okay and I remember staying up late and my roommate was in her bed and I was half asleep filling out this application.
I got accepted to be a mentor. This was before sophomore year. [00:09:15] The way the mentorship works through NC Sli, now we have a different model, but at the time you get sophomores in college paired with sophomores in high school in the Latinx community. We changed our counties some but at the time we had Lee County, Orange County, Chapel Hill/ Carrboro city schools, Durham County, and Chatham County. Lee County is the furthest out; it’s an hour/45 mins away. At the time, the moral of the program was that every other weekend all the students would come to UNC and we would have meetings in the global center. Depending on the grade level, we would work on different things. For example, sophomore year was a lot of identity stuff: who am I, what makes me a part of this community, how do I view myself, how does my community view me,ect. Junior year we would move more into ACT, SAT stuff. Senior year was very college essay based work. The originally platform was created so sophomores in college would be paired with sophomores in high school and you would be their mentors for three years until you both graduate the same year. Which is pretty cool cause in a three year relationship, you can gain someone’s trust if it works out and your compatible in that time. Now it’s (the program) is a little bit different. We make an effort for families to not have to drive so far. For the furthest counties, we do on site events over there (at their campus) where each site meets by themselves for academic events three times a month. Then once a month, they come here (UNC) with their mentors, which is more bonding time. Then they usually get a weekend off.
CD: I want to interrupt you for a second… How do the students sign up, is it voluntary? Is it in a classroom setting that they decide that they want to be a part of this program? How do the students get chosen to be a part of Sli?
BH: It’s an application process. Depending on the counties, we shoot for different amounts of students. We have different strengths of presence in different counties. For example, we might be closer to guidance counselors in certain counties than in others. They (guidance counselors) spread the word. I feel like a lot of it has become word of mouth. The program has grown: for example, it’s like a kid in a grade below will see it and kid in a grade above will post it on social media “Oh, Sli rocks”. The younger kid will be like, “oh that’s cool, how do you get to be in that”? The older kid says “oh well, this month you fill out this application.”
The heads, Ricky and Elaine, the co-directors of Sli, get paid because it’s their job, unlike us (volunteers). They will go to the communities and try to talk to people at school. They go to school nights for Latinx families and they will go to talk to them about the program. They do a lot of work like getting the word out in the communities about the program and that it would be a cool opportunity.
CD: Do you want to share a little about your mentee, not in detail or anything personal but how is that really enriched your experience there?
BH: Something that’s been really interesting for me is that a lot of our— [00:13:34] I’ve been looking at education, the college application process and the education system from a very different perspective than the one that I’ve experienced. This has been very rewarding, specifically looking at some of our students are undocumented and looking at what that process looks like for different students has been so interesting. I don’t know honestly, it alarms me that up until two years ago I didn’t really understand that. Clearly, there were peers that were going through this and I had no idea. I think looking at what that’s for me (college application process), it was always like my dad’s a doctor and my mom’s a nurse practitioner, so you’re (Becca) going to college whether you like it or not. It was never a “what-if”, it was like you’re applying to ten schools and that’s what’s happening. I think that it’s really important to understand what other people are experiencing. For me, that’s been— I’ve learned a lot about what actions need to be taken in different communities and what it’s like to be a child of a parent who hasn’t gone through the educational system here in the states. Especially since it looks very different in every country. It also made me realize that I have an unfair advantage and how reliant I was during the process of college applications. I would ask my mom, “I don’t understand this, can you read over this essay in English?” … or “Mom, I don’t get this form, can you help me do it?” I think that doing financial ( ) the kids all bring in their financial forms and get frustrated trying to fill them out without their parents. That’s a whole side of this I had never experienced. I think that also being paired with a mentee, my mentee and I have become very close for three years. I’m very lucky to say that and I think that I’ve learned a lot about trust during that process. The first year, I feel like our relationship was very surface level: what do you do, what do you like, how are your grades? I don’t want to push you (mentee) too hard because I’m trying to be friends and your mentor. I feel like that was interesting. Junior year came and I went abroad. It was hard to keep up with her while I was in a different country but we still made it work. If something went wrong, she would start coming to me more. I started noticing more and (told myself) “this is cool, it’s a trusting relationship.” She would tell me, “Becca this thing is happening in school, I don’t know how to handle it, what do you think?”… Or “oh this thing happened at home and it stressed me out, I’m having issues with x y z.”
I think that I’ve learned a lot about the value of trust, especially in looking at cultural barriers too. With her family, I’ve seen the large presence of cultural barriers. Over time, we’ve definitely grown a lot more and I think that’s been really cool. She’s awesome, my mentee rocks! Through Sli, I’m a mentor and I’m also on staff. It was hard to do both but I love it so much. Junior year, I was doing communications coordinator working on all the social media.
CD: (Interrupts): Is that volunteer?
BH: Yeah. It’s an extra position.
CD: Like an officer?
BH: Yes exactly. I work with social media. Senior year, I became the Lee county mentorship coordinator, which is what I like the most about Sli. That’s why I wanted to be the mentorship coordinator for my county because I think the mentorship— there’s a lot of different aspects of Sli. There’s the family kind of setting that brings families— the families come with the kids for the events here, which is so important. Honestly, it’s one of the most important parts because they receive instructions in Spanish about what they can be doing to help their kid. A lot of students live at home during college in the U.S. We explain the cultural differences of: this is what it looks like so don’t freak out when your kids think about living somewhere else. We explain things to families so that’s the family aspect. There’s a school aspect, like a crackdown (instruction) of: this is the ACT, this is the SAT, write your essays and figure out your financial aid essays too. There’s mentorship part, which I find the most rewarding. I think that having a mentor who is pursuing their education and you have a good relationship with your mentor, then your encouraged to do the same. I think that’s really important. That’s why I wanted to be involved in (the role of a) mentorship coordinator so I can conduct the pairings. It felt like a dating site. I read all the bios of the mentees and the mentors’ applicants and paired them together. I follow through and if anything comes up with the mentorship, I’m the first mode of contact, so I really love that because it’s my favorite part.
CD: So let’s talk about your other volunteer experience at the UNC hospital as navigator. What interested you about doing that?
BH: Sli actually led me to this because Alejandra (friend) and Nalini worked there. It’s called “Carolina Conexiones”. They were like “Becca you would love it, you need to do it”. This was like junior year, but I was busy at the time so I didn’t know if I would have time for this. When senior year came, I told myself they were right, I needed to do it, I ( ) love it. So I contacted them and asked how to get started and how do I take the language exam. I definitely was interested in working with Spanish speakers in a hospital setting because as I’m interested in medicine. I wasn’t always interested in medicine because some people want to look at all of your bones and I do like the gory stuff — I do I ( ). For me, it’s been more about reaching out to certain communities that need a little extra help. I’ve always thought that was important so for me. This was an introduction to working in Spanish in a hospital setting. I asked myself: “is this something I could see myself doing in the future?” The answer is 100% yes. A big thing that interested me was getting my feet wet: “do I like the hospital setting, do I like running around my feet, do I like talking to a bunch of people, do I like trying to gain their confidence?” Being very personable is so important especially with cultural barriers. I think that has definitely taught me a lot about what I want to pursue in the future. Specifically in communities that I want to work with. It impacts where I want to work and what exactly I want to do. For example, if I did medicine I would definitely want to do family medicine versus specializing in some particular surgery and not really playing a long lasting role in people’s lives. It has taught me a lot about that. I think I talked a little bit about it but I can keep going. At first, I was definitely nervous. I was so scared to talk to anyone thinking that I’m going to say something silly.
CD: [00:23:25] Can you explain a little bit about the set-up, like when you go there, what is expected of you?
BH: Okay, perfect. I show up every day and I walk in to change into my little uniform, my khakis and my polo. I put on this pin that says “Hablo Español”. At first I felt really dorky wearing it but honestly it’s really important because people who walk down the halls sometimes will ask me a question cause they’ll see my button. I think its good that they have us wear those. Every day, the volunteers get the Ipads that have the daily patient reports. They have a print-out sheet that has all the Spanish primary language patients coming in that day and the time they are coming in. So we wait in the waiting room for them to come in and then ask them (a lot of them we recognize off the bat, that’s my favorite part) in Spanish, “we’re bilingual navigators, if you want we can help you go through the receptionist and nurse” and usually they’ll say yes. So then we go in with them and sign consent forms. Sometimes it gets complicated when looking at insurance and things can get hairy with that. I’ve had a lot of different experiences, which I think is so interesting. [00:25:17] I think it’s important to understand where patients are coming from with regards to how they’re actually going to pay for the treatment they are receiving. I’m exposed to the other end of it, being this patient’s advocate, I’m on your team; I’m going to help you get through this.
CD: So like a mini lawyer?
BH: Yeah that’s how I feel sometimes. Making sure they understand everything, make sure they feel confident with themselves and what is going to be happening. A lot of health insurance stuff, if they need special financial help, I’ll show them over to the financial counselors office and ( ) help them. Once they finish up with the receptionist, I take them to the waiting room.
CD: Is this in the ER?
BH: It’s in the children’s specialty clinic. I do spend time in the ER sometimes cause we get Spanish speaking patients who don’t really understand where they need to show up. If they have kids sometimes they show up to the Spanish specialty clinic so then I take them to the ER. I’m all over the place, wherever I’m needed. But it’s cool cause I definitely get to see different sides of the hospital and see different barriers to care which I think is very important. I definitely spend some time down in the ER with patients. Then I chat them up usually in the waiting area, which I really like. I think that’s where you start becoming more comfortable with one another so I like to talk to them and ask where are they from originally and how long have they been living in North Carolina? I ask where did they live cause a lot of people in the specialty clinic travel an hour away twice a week to get very particular treatment for their child. They always ask me where did I learn Spanish. Conversations usually go a particular way. It’s good if they have any particular concerns because once I start talking to them in a more causal way, they’ll bring them up. They’ll mention that they might need help with a financial thing and then I’ll be able to tell them where to go. I think one of the most rewarding parts of working there is the random questions people will ask me once they feel like they can trust me. I’ve had people ask me how do I do the FAFSA for my kid for financial aid in the hospital waiting room. Just different things like that. I’ve had people ask me “hey where will you be in an hour? Can I come find you so you can help me look at this financial document?” I think it’s important for them to feel like they have an advocate in a hospital setting because it’s overwhelming. I really like that part of it. So then the nurse calls us back and I interpret for the nurse, which could some days be just as simple as height and weight. Other days it’s helping the nurse take off a baby’s diaper, doing a bunch of things, having a very depth discussion about the hundred medicines some kid is on in Spanish. It definitely changes a lot. I think that’s another reason it’s really important to build trust and connect with the patient in the waiting room. They feel more comfortable to say that they don’t understand something to me. For example, when we’re in the nurse station and they are confused about medicine or confirming what pharmacy it needs to go. That’s usually a big problem. For example, another thing I think is important is the people who I recognize. During my last shift, I always help this woman and she always get so excited to see me. She always comes in with her 4 kids and she’s holding them all. She didn’t know where to go for her appointment at the hospital so she shows up to the children’s specialty clinic cause she knew I would be there and would help her. So she was like “hi, I don’t know where I need to be, can you help me? And I was like “yeah c’mon!” So I went and got the receptionist to look up where she needed to be. The nurse told me she is not supposed to be here. So I went across the hospital to help her check in somewhere else. They sent me to the basement. I followed her to the basement and at the end she said thank you. I replied, “of course you always know where I am.”
I feel like that sense of knowing there is someone on your team is important. [00:30:18] There are definitely days where I feel like I doubt my Spanish. For example, the other day someone’s pocketknife had fallen out in the waiting room floor and one of the parents tried to tell me in Spanish there’s a knife on the floor, but they used a word for knife I have never heard in my life. I know the word for knife in Spanish but I only know one. Apparently there’s a specific word for pocketknife. He was telling me that word and I said to him, “I don’t understand what you’re saying to me, I’m sorry.” He was pointing at it and (when I realized it was a knife) I said “I’m so sorry, I’ve only heard the word “cuchillo” for knife in my entire life.” He was laughing and it turned out to be fine. Obviously we turned it (knife) into the receptionist. We couldn’t have anything dangerous on the floor of a waiting room. There are definitely times where I’m like “AHHH” (screams) but I think the patients are so appreciative that I’m trying (to speak Spanish) my best.
CD: [00:31:27] How do you think that these two experiences are going to play a role in your future career? I know you mentioned it a little bit before but since you want to go into a particular area of medicine, your experience at Sli, combining the two, how do you think that’s going to impact your future?
BH: In Sli, I’ve learned a lot about education barriers. I think that a lot of education barriers I’ve seen are tied into mental health barriers. Not just with my mentee but with a lot of mentees. They’re going through a lot of stuff at home, a lot of excess stress and anxiety caused by things like DACA, it’s a very stressful time to have DACA. Imagine being a regular high school student and having to think about that, that’s so much! Thirty teen year old me could not have handled that, I promise you that. I think the excess stress— a lot of them have a job. Did I have a job when I was that young? No. I’ve learned a lot about how mental health has a large impact on their schooling. Everyone always say education is the gateway to success and the great equalizer. I think it’s a lot harder to do well in school when there’s a lot of background stuff going on. I think that Sli has definitely taught me a lot about the role that mental health and excess stress can play on the Latinx community, especially in high school. Just in general honestly. I’ve also learned a lot about being exposed to a bunch of families and learning about different things people have gone through. This includes families that are separated and the role that that can play. A lot of domestic violence stuff is interplaying with undocumented status. People have been able to step forward and say something is going on although they are undocumented. I’ve seen cases of that or heard about it. [00:34:24] If I become a medical practitioner or get into family medicine, (who knows what the future holds) I’m going to be a lot more aware of little things that may need to have a follow up question asked. The importance of taking the extra few minutes to get to know someone, where they’re from, what they’re carrying, to try to build that trust, it leads you to give them the care that they truly need. If I went to my pediatrician and as I got to know her better, I tell her what I’m stressed about, I feel like that’s when I speak the same language as my provider. I really do hope that I’ll be able to apply a lot of what I’ve learned in the future.
END OF INTERVIEW
TRANSCRIBED BY CAROLINA DE LEON
6 MARCH 2018
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Estudiantes
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Rebecca Heines, mejor conocida como Becca, sirve como la coordinadora de mentores para La Iniciativa de Servicios de Aprendizaje de Carolina del Norte. A de mas de eso, ella es una traductora bilingüe en el hospital de la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill. Como estudiante, ella comparte sus experiencias en el voluntariado con organizaciones que se enfocan principalmente en la comunidad Latinx. Su pasión por el servicio a otros nació atraves de sus amistades sociales y sus estudios avanzados en el exterior en Latino America. En esta entrevista, ella explica como sus experiencias en NC Sli y traductora bilingüe le han influenciado el deseo de trabajar en el campo de la medicina cuando se gradué. Ella explica específicamente como la salud mental y el estrés impacta la educación de los estudiantes indocumentados en la preparatoria. Aunque Becca hable inglés y español, ella cuenta sus obstáculos de comunicación en español que tiene con pacientes. Ambas Rebecca Heines y Carolina De Leon son estudiantes trabajando con las historias orales de Nuevas Raíces como parte del curso “APPLES Global Course Guanajuato” en la universidad de Carolina del Norte (UNC Chapel Hill). Esta entrevista fue llevo a cabo como parte del curso para proveer un fondo de los individuos quien trabajan con Nuevas Raíces. La inclusión de sus entrevistas es optavivo, y no es parte de su nota en el curso. Los alumnos en el curso tambien viajen a Guanajuato, México durante marzo para una semana. Carolina De Leon sirve como voluntaria en El Centro Hispano durante el semester como parte de un requisito de aprendizaje-servicio para fortalecer relaciones con comunidades de inmigrantes. Esta entrevista es la primera de dos entrevistas. La segunda se enfoque en las experiencias de Becca en México.
Es: Temas
Programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios; Educación; Redes sociales; Lenguaje y comunicación
Es: Transcripción
Carolina De Leon: I’m here today with Becca. I want to make sure that you consent to me interviewing you today and that you’re okay with this happening.
Becca Heine: Yes, I consent.
CD: Okay Becca, so where are you from?
BH: I was born here at UNC hospitals in Chapel Hill. I lived in Durham from when I was born till the first grade. I moved to Chapel Hill from Durham when I was 7 and then I’ve lived in Chapel Hill ever since. I went to high school here at Chapel Hill High. And now I’m still here at UNC, haven’t quite gotten enough. Just kidding I’m kind of ready to get out. Yeah, so I’m very North Carolina born and raised.
CD: Awesome. How old are you?
BH: I am 21.
CD: What are you studying here at UNC?
BH: Here at UNC, [00:00:15] I’ve bounced all over the place from trying to figure out what I wanted my major to be. I came in very science-minded, still am, and I was absent-mindedly following the biology BS track because science is what I’m good at. I was like “maybe I should just do what I’m good at” and I started to question that. I was like (to myself) “maybe there are other things I like; I just have never tried them.” And so I was like okay, I don’t know what I’m good at. I impulsively saw the application process for the UNC Gillings School of Global Public Health. They have a few undergraduate majors through Gillings and the environmental health science one looked pretty cool to me. I’m very interested in how a person – like, how a set environment impacts your health— this is a cool combination of both things I’m interested in, environmental health and inequalities. That would give me a cool way to start taking some of those classes. I did a semester of that program and I really loved it. I decided to go abroad the following year, my junior year spring semester, I went to Ecuador for the semester.
It was the best decision ever but it makes it really hard to fit a—. Essentially I thought I want to go abroad, I’m going to make it happen so I just went abroad. I said I’ll figure out the credits when I get back, which is not the best choice but also if you really want to do something in life, you just got to do it. That was my choice. I did it knowing it was going to be really hard when I came back to finish a 4 semester public health degree in 3 (semesters). Only one other girl in the entire program had gone abroad so I knew it was going to be tough but I can figure it out. I came back and I was hoping that what I wanted to do with my life would all fall into place magically while I was abroad but clearly that didn’t happen. If anything, I had no idea what I wanted to do even more. I came back and I was signing up for classes on Connect Carolina the summer before senior year. I was getting all my classes for that major. The classes were very engineering based so I didn’t really realize until my first semester that I subconsciously taken all the social science classes. I took my hard sciences, physics, chemistries, but all my electives were environmental health and classes that were looking at more social aspects. The undergraduate program is engineering but we take classes with the grad students so it’s very much ( ). As I signed up for all these classes, I was sitting in the living room and I was looking at my Connect Carolina thinking, “I don’t want to be in any of these classes, oh my God”. I was like “Something’s wrong”. Two days before senior year I walked in academic advising saying “I think I made a mistake”. If I change my major to international politics global studies major I can graduate on time. I don’t know how but I’ve already taken a lot of the classes for my general education so it all fit in to that category. My academic advisor said, “You’re right”. So I changed my major two days before senior year. I gave my mom a heart attack but I’ve loved it and honestly this class was one of the main reasons I changed it. I really wanted to take this class and I knew there was no way I could fit it in my schedule if I have my old major. I have my chemistry and biology minors and then I’m majoring in international politics. Everyone always laughs when I say that cause they say, “what are you doing? Your interests are all over the board.”
I’m looking at pre health stuff (classes), it’s very pre-requisite based, so I can major in whatever I want. I’d like to think that medical schools feel that I definitely bring more of an understanding of cultures and issues that others are facing because of my academic background versus someone who is just a biology major. I know a lot of politics surrounding different areas of the world, immigration patterns, and health care policy that many doctors know nothing about. I think that’s important and that’s why I did it. That’s what I’m studying at UNC.
CD: What interested you about NC Sli (Scholars Latinx Initiative) that made you want to join and how did you hear about it?
BH: My pathway to Sli cracks me up how I stumbled upon it and how it became such a huge part of my life. The summer after my freshmen year of college, I did like a summer study abroad program in Santiago Chile. I had a Spanish teacher both semesters freshmen year and she really pushed me to go. She asked me what I was during that summer: “I think this would be great for you to definitely get you ( ) get your Spanish up” the teacher told her.
I mean I’m a freshman, I have no idea what I’m doing this summer. So I said, okay so I did it (went on the trip). On that trip, I met a girl named Nalini. Six UNC students went on the trip and there was Nalini who was nice. She was actually the cousin of my high school friend so we had a little connection before the trip but had never met before. That trip was fun, we ended up becoming Facebook friends. I came back the next semester, fall sophomore year, and I saw Nalini posted something on Facebook about applying to be part of an organization (NC Sli). The deadline was that night at midnight.
Since I had gotten back from Chile, my Spanish was a little bit better. I was looking for ways to get involved in Latinx community. I felt like I can actually do something to contribute. I feel like without the language, it’s hard sometimes. [00:08:29] But it was something I’m passionate about (volunteering) and now I felt like I could actually participate and do things, so this could be cool. I Facebook messaged her and asked her what it was about (NC Sli). She said it was an incredible organization, she had been in it for two years, “you would love it, apply to be a mentor.” So I said okay and I remember staying up late and my roommate was in her bed and I was half asleep filling out this application.
I got accepted to be a mentor. This was before sophomore year. [00:09:15] The way the mentorship works through NC Sli, now we have a different model, but at the time you get sophomores in college paired with sophomores in high school in the Latinx community. We changed our counties some but at the time we had Lee County, Orange County, Chapel Hill/ Carrboro city schools, Durham County, and Chatham County. Lee County is the furthest out; it’s an hour/45 mins away. At the time, the moral of the program was that every other weekend all the students would come to UNC and we would have meetings in the global center. Depending on the grade level, we would work on different things. For example, sophomore year was a lot of identity stuff: who am I, what makes me a part of this community, how do I view myself, how does my community view me,ect. Junior year we would move more into ACT, SAT stuff. Senior year was very college essay based work. The originally platform was created so sophomores in college would be paired with sophomores in high school and you would be their mentors for three years until you both graduate the same year. Which is pretty cool cause in a three year relationship, you can gain someone’s trust if it works out and your compatible in that time. Now it’s (the program) is a little bit different. We make an effort for families to not have to drive so far. For the furthest counties, we do on site events over there (at their campus) where each site meets by themselves for academic events three times a month. Then once a month, they come here (UNC) with their mentors, which is more bonding time. Then they usually get a weekend off.
CD: I want to interrupt you for a second… How do the students sign up, is it voluntary? Is it in a classroom setting that they decide that they want to be a part of this program? How do the students get chosen to be a part of Sli?
BH: It’s an application process. Depending on the counties, we shoot for different amounts of students. We have different strengths of presence in different counties. For example, we might be closer to guidance counselors in certain counties than in others. They (guidance counselors) spread the word. I feel like a lot of it has become word of mouth. The program has grown: for example, it’s like a kid in a grade below will see it and kid in a grade above will post it on social media “Oh, Sli rocks”. The younger kid will be like, “oh that’s cool, how do you get to be in that”? The older kid says “oh well, this month you fill out this application.”
The heads, Ricky and Elaine, the co-directors of Sli, get paid because it’s their job, unlike us (volunteers). They will go to the communities and try to talk to people at school. They go to school nights for Latinx families and they will go to talk to them about the program. They do a lot of work like getting the word out in the communities about the program and that it would be a cool opportunity.
CD: Do you want to share a little about your mentee, not in detail or anything personal but how is that really enriched your experience there?
BH: Something that’s been really interesting for me is that a lot of our— [00:13:34] I’ve been looking at education, the college application process and the education system from a very different perspective than the one that I’ve experienced. This has been very rewarding, specifically looking at some of our students are undocumented and looking at what that process looks like for different students has been so interesting. I don’t know honestly, it alarms me that up until two years ago I didn’t really understand that. Clearly, there were peers that were going through this and I had no idea. I think looking at what that’s for me (college application process), it was always like my dad’s a doctor and my mom’s a nurse practitioner, so you’re (Becca) going to college whether you like it or not. It was never a “what-if”, it was like you’re applying to ten schools and that’s what’s happening. I think that it’s really important to understand what other people are experiencing. For me, that’s been— I’ve learned a lot about what actions need to be taken in different communities and what it’s like to be a child of a parent who hasn’t gone through the educational system here in the states. Especially since it looks very different in every country. It also made me realize that I have an unfair advantage and how reliant I was during the process of college applications. I would ask my mom, “I don’t understand this, can you read over this essay in English?” … or “Mom, I don’t get this form, can you help me do it?” I think that doing financial ( ) the kids all bring in their financial forms and get frustrated trying to fill them out without their parents. That’s a whole side of this I had never experienced. I think that also being paired with a mentee, my mentee and I have become very close for three years. I’m very lucky to say that and I think that I’ve learned a lot about trust during that process. The first year, I feel like our relationship was very surface level: what do you do, what do you like, how are your grades? I don’t want to push you (mentee) too hard because I’m trying to be friends and your mentor. I feel like that was interesting. Junior year came and I went abroad. It was hard to keep up with her while I was in a different country but we still made it work. If something went wrong, she would start coming to me more. I started noticing more and (told myself) “this is cool, it’s a trusting relationship.” She would tell me, “Becca this thing is happening in school, I don’t know how to handle it, what do you think?”… Or “oh this thing happened at home and it stressed me out, I’m having issues with x y z.”
I think that I’ve learned a lot about the value of trust, especially in looking at cultural barriers too. With her family, I’ve seen the large presence of cultural barriers. Over time, we’ve definitely grown a lot more and I think that’s been really cool. She’s awesome, my mentee rocks! Through Sli, I’m a mentor and I’m also on staff. It was hard to do both but I love it so much. Junior year, I was doing communications coordinator working on all the social media.
CD: (Interrupts): Is that volunteer?
BH: Yeah. It’s an extra position.
CD: Like an officer?
BH: Yes exactly. I work with social media. Senior year, I became the Lee county mentorship coordinator, which is what I like the most about Sli. That’s why I wanted to be the mentorship coordinator for my county because I think the mentorship— there’s a lot of different aspects of Sli. There’s the family kind of setting that brings families— the families come with the kids for the events here, which is so important. Honestly, it’s one of the most important parts because they receive instructions in Spanish about what they can be doing to help their kid. A lot of students live at home during college in the U.S. We explain the cultural differences of: this is what it looks like so don’t freak out when your kids think about living somewhere else. We explain things to families so that’s the family aspect. There’s a school aspect, like a crackdown (instruction) of: this is the ACT, this is the SAT, write your essays and figure out your financial aid essays too. There’s mentorship part, which I find the most rewarding. I think that having a mentor who is pursuing their education and you have a good relationship with your mentor, then your encouraged to do the same. I think that’s really important. That’s why I wanted to be involved in (the role of a) mentorship coordinator so I can conduct the pairings. It felt like a dating site. I read all the bios of the mentees and the mentors’ applicants and paired them together. I follow through and if anything comes up with the mentorship, I’m the first mode of contact, so I really love that because it’s my favorite part.
CD: So let’s talk about your other volunteer experience at the UNC hospital as navigator. What interested you about doing that?
BH: Sli actually led me to this because Alejandra (friend) and Nalini worked there. It’s called “Carolina Conexiones”. They were like “Becca you would love it, you need to do it”. This was like junior year, but I was busy at the time so I didn’t know if I would have time for this. When senior year came, I told myself they were right, I needed to do it, I ( ) love it. So I contacted them and asked how to get started and how do I take the language exam. I definitely was interested in working with Spanish speakers in a hospital setting because as I’m interested in medicine. I wasn’t always interested in medicine because some people want to look at all of your bones and I do like the gory stuff — I do I ( ). For me, it’s been more about reaching out to certain communities that need a little extra help. I’ve always thought that was important so for me. This was an introduction to working in Spanish in a hospital setting. I asked myself: “is this something I could see myself doing in the future?” The answer is 100% yes. A big thing that interested me was getting my feet wet: “do I like the hospital setting, do I like running around my feet, do I like talking to a bunch of people, do I like trying to gain their confidence?” Being very personable is so important especially with cultural barriers. I think that has definitely taught me a lot about what I want to pursue in the future. Specifically in communities that I want to work with. It impacts where I want to work and what exactly I want to do. For example, if I did medicine I would definitely want to do family medicine versus specializing in some particular surgery and not really playing a long lasting role in people’s lives. It has taught me a lot about that. I think I talked a little bit about it but I can keep going. At first, I was definitely nervous. I was so scared to talk to anyone thinking that I’m going to say something silly.
CD: [00:23:25] Can you explain a little bit about the set-up, like when you go there, what is expected of you?
BH: Okay, perfect. I show up every day and I walk in to change into my little uniform, my khakis and my polo. I put on this pin that says “Hablo Español”. At first I felt really dorky wearing it but honestly it’s really important because people who walk down the halls sometimes will ask me a question cause they’ll see my button. I think its good that they have us wear those. Every day, the volunteers get the Ipads that have the daily patient reports. They have a print-out sheet that has all the Spanish primary language patients coming in that day and the time they are coming in. So we wait in the waiting room for them to come in and then ask them (a lot of them we recognize off the bat, that’s my favorite part) in Spanish, “we’re bilingual navigators, if you want we can help you go through the receptionist and nurse” and usually they’ll say yes. So then we go in with them and sign consent forms. Sometimes it gets complicated when looking at insurance and things can get hairy with that. I’ve had a lot of different experiences, which I think is so interesting. [00:25:17] I think it’s important to understand where patients are coming from with regards to how they’re actually going to pay for the treatment they are receiving. I’m exposed to the other end of it, being this patient’s advocate, I’m on your team; I’m going to help you get through this.
CD: So like a mini lawyer?
BH: Yeah that’s how I feel sometimes. Making sure they understand everything, make sure they feel confident with themselves and what is going to be happening. A lot of health insurance stuff, if they need special financial help, I’ll show them over to the financial counselors office and ( ) help them. Once they finish up with the receptionist, I take them to the waiting room.
CD: Is this in the ER?
BH: It’s in the children’s specialty clinic. I do spend time in the ER sometimes cause we get Spanish speaking patients who don’t really understand where they need to show up. If they have kids sometimes they show up to the Spanish specialty clinic so then I take them to the ER. I’m all over the place, wherever I’m needed. But it’s cool cause I definitely get to see different sides of the hospital and see different barriers to care which I think is very important. I definitely spend some time down in the ER with patients. Then I chat them up usually in the waiting area, which I really like. I think that’s where you start becoming more comfortable with one another so I like to talk to them and ask where are they from originally and how long have they been living in North Carolina? I ask where did they live cause a lot of people in the specialty clinic travel an hour away twice a week to get very particular treatment for their child. They always ask me where did I learn Spanish. Conversations usually go a particular way. It’s good if they have any particular concerns because once I start talking to them in a more causal way, they’ll bring them up. They’ll mention that they might need help with a financial thing and then I’ll be able to tell them where to go. I think one of the most rewarding parts of working there is the random questions people will ask me once they feel like they can trust me. I’ve had people ask me how do I do the FAFSA for my kid for financial aid in the hospital waiting room. Just different things like that. I’ve had people ask me “hey where will you be in an hour? Can I come find you so you can help me look at this financial document?” I think it’s important for them to feel like they have an advocate in a hospital setting because it’s overwhelming. I really like that part of it. So then the nurse calls us back and I interpret for the nurse, which could some days be just as simple as height and weight. Other days it’s helping the nurse take off a baby’s diaper, doing a bunch of things, having a very depth discussion about the hundred medicines some kid is on in Spanish. It definitely changes a lot. I think that’s another reason it’s really important to build trust and connect with the patient in the waiting room. They feel more comfortable to say that they don’t understand something to me. For example, when we’re in the nurse station and they are confused about medicine or confirming what pharmacy it needs to go. That’s usually a big problem. For example, another thing I think is important is the people who I recognize. During my last shift, I always help this woman and she always get so excited to see me. She always comes in with her 4 kids and she’s holding them all. She didn’t know where to go for her appointment at the hospital so she shows up to the children’s specialty clinic cause she knew I would be there and would help her. So she was like “hi, I don’t know where I need to be, can you help me? And I was like “yeah c’mon!” So I went and got the receptionist to look up where she needed to be. The nurse told me she is not supposed to be here. So I went across the hospital to help her check in somewhere else. They sent me to the basement. I followed her to the basement and at the end she said thank you. I replied, “of course you always know where I am.”
I feel like that sense of knowing there is someone on your team is important. [00:30:18] There are definitely days where I feel like I doubt my Spanish. For example, the other day someone’s pocketknife had fallen out in the waiting room floor and one of the parents tried to tell me in Spanish there’s a knife on the floor, but they used a word for knife I have never heard in my life. I know the word for knife in Spanish but I only know one. Apparently there’s a specific word for pocketknife. He was telling me that word and I said to him, “I don’t understand what you’re saying to me, I’m sorry.” He was pointing at it and (when I realized it was a knife) I said “I’m so sorry, I’ve only heard the word “cuchillo” for knife in my entire life.” He was laughing and it turned out to be fine. Obviously we turned it (knife) into the receptionist. We couldn’t have anything dangerous on the floor of a waiting room. There are definitely times where I’m like “AHHH” (screams) but I think the patients are so appreciative that I’m trying (to speak Spanish) my best.
CD: [00:31:27] How do you think that these two experiences are going to play a role in your future career? I know you mentioned it a little bit before but since you want to go into a particular area of medicine, your experience at Sli, combining the two, how do you think that’s going to impact your future?
BH: In Sli, I’ve learned a lot about education barriers. I think that a lot of education barriers I’ve seen are tied into mental health barriers. Not just with my mentee but with a lot of mentees. They’re going through a lot of stuff at home, a lot of excess stress and anxiety caused by things like DACA, it’s a very stressful time to have DACA. Imagine being a regular high school student and having to think about that, that’s so much! Thirty teen year old me could not have handled that, I promise you that. I think the excess stress— a lot of them have a job. Did I have a job when I was that young? No. I’ve learned a lot about how mental health has a large impact on their schooling. Everyone always say education is the gateway to success and the great equalizer. I think it’s a lot harder to do well in school when there’s a lot of background stuff going on. I think that Sli has definitely taught me a lot about the role that mental health and excess stress can play on the Latinx community, especially in high school. Just in general honestly. I’ve also learned a lot about being exposed to a bunch of families and learning about different things people have gone through. This includes families that are separated and the role that that can play. A lot of domestic violence stuff is interplaying with undocumented status. People have been able to step forward and say something is going on although they are undocumented. I’ve seen cases of that or heard about it. [00:34:24] If I become a medical practitioner or get into family medicine, (who knows what the future holds) I’m going to be a lot more aware of little things that may need to have a follow up question asked. The importance of taking the extra few minutes to get to know someone, where they’re from, what they’re carrying, to try to build that trust, it leads you to give them the care that they truly need. If I went to my pediatrician and as I got to know her better, I tell her what I’m stressed about, I feel like that’s when I speak the same language as my provider. I really do hope that I’ll be able to apply a lot of what I’ve learned in the future.
END OF INTERVIEW
TRANSCRIBED BY CAROLINA DE LEON
6 MARCH 2018
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
Es: Citación
Dublin Core
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Title
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R-0904 -- Heine, Rebecca.
Description
An account of the resource
Rebecca Heines, better known as Becca, serves as the mentorship coordinator of North Carolina’s Service Learning Initiative (NC Sli). She also is a bilingual navigator at the University of North Carolina hospital in Chapel Hill. She discusses her experiences as a college student volunteering with organizations targeted towards the Latinx community. Becca discusses how her social networks and study abroad immersion in Latin America inspired her passion to serve. In this interview, she explains how her experience at NC Sli and as a bilingual navigator has shaped her desire to work in the medical field after graduation. She specifically addresses how stress and mental health impact undocumented high school students education. Although Becca speaks English and Spanish, she shares her challenges of communicating in Spanish effectively with patients. Both Rebecca Heines and Carolina De Leon are student interviewers working with the New Roots/Nuevas Raíces Oral Histories as part of APPLES Global Course Guanajuato at UNC Chapel Hill. This interview was conducted as part of this course and is intended to provide background and context about some of the individuals who conduct oral histories for the New Roots collection. Their inclusion in the archive is optional and does not impact their grade. Students also travel to Guanajuato, Mexico over Spring break. Carolina de Leon is also volunteering at El Centro Hispano throughout the semester as part of a service-learning requirement to build relationships with immigrant communities.This interview is the first of 2 interviews. The 2nd interview focuses on Becca’s experiences in Mexico.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
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2018-02-15
Format
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R0904_Audio.mp3
Publisher
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/27584">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/fda26b17f7cc23acda49708b8e6c17c3.mp3
9f3d89d098f80e7afef75d2b8f8d1aa3
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/3057aa475e0e6527be5fce6c3392ba65.pdf
a513dbd448bb77a021e12b6aca93d496
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0909
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
2018-04-18
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Zhou-Talbert, Serena.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Physicians
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Shanghai -- Shanghai -- China
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Carrboro -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Silver, Anna.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
Dr. Serena Zhou-Talbert immigrated to the United States from China when she was three years old. She has MPH and MD degrees and currently works as a resident family medicine physician at the Prospect Hill Community Health Center, a Federally Qualified Health Center (FQHC) that serves a 60 percent Hispanic population. In this interview, she discusses the barriers to accessing healthcare that her patients face, telling stories of particular patients as examples. She also briefly discusses her own identity as an immigrant from China. This interview is part of a GLBL 382 project investigating barriers to accessing healthcare for immigrants in North Carolina. As part of this course, students also travel to Guanajuato, Mexico over Spring break. Anna Silver is also volunteering as an English language tutor with immigrants throughout the semester as part of a service-learning requirement to build relationships with immigrant communities.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Serena Zhou-Talbert by Anna Silver, 18 April 2018, R-0909, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/27572
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Health; Healthcare; Migratory Experience; Agricultural workers; Community and social services and programs
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Anna Silver: So, my name is Anna Silver, and I am here interviewing Dr. Serena Zhou-Talbert about her work with immigrants at the Prospect Hill Community Health Center as a doctor. The date is April 8, and it is 3:05 PM. To start, can you tell me a little bit about your background, kind of where you grew up, and then a little bit of maybe education and work history, and how you came to be working here at Prospect Hill?
[00:00:31] Serena Zhou-Talbert: Okay, so, a brief history. I was born in China—Shanghai, China—came to the United States when I was three. Moved—moved around a bunch of places, so, went from Minnesota to Mississippi, lived there for a year, spent a little bit of time in Arizona, and then moved to Connecticut for high school. Went to college at Johns Hopkins to study behavioral biology there, and then during the interim, when I was in Johns Hopkins, my parents moved to South Carolina, which is where they are now. And then I was also pre-med in Johns Hopkins, that was kind of, wasn’t really sure I wanted to go to med school though, however. Ended up doing an internship, worked with a lot of issues—dealt with issues with racial and ethnic health disparities, and that was kind of how I started getting interested in public health and health disparities and issues like that. And then after that, I spent a little time abroad in, in Shanghai, China, and then, got exposed to alternative types of medicine I think so, that was kind of my first interest in medicine. After college, I spent a year abroad in Ecuador, and I was working—working in community development, so I was in charge of this, the health programs for a nonprofit called Manna Project International, and then I think that’s kind of how I got interested in working with Latino populations, like global health and kind of tied that into healthcare. And then after that I spent, moved to California, where my then boyfriend, now husband was, and then spent a year kind of doing random jobs and then did an MPH, deferred a year for med school to do an MPH in public health, and global health, a focus on global health. And then ended up going to Michigan State University for med school, mainly chose that because of their, their—they have a pretty high emphasis on primary care, strong primary care focus, so went there for medical school. Did a, was under there—there was a leadership for the underserved track that they did, so I was a part of that. And then ended up going into family medicine for a lot of the same issues, or a lot of the same reasons as I mentioned, their emphasis in public health and being able to kind of, being able to have that first point of contact, the first point of relationship for patients, and have that, maintain that kind of continuity, being able to deal with a wide variety of issues, and then, yeah. So chose UNC Family Medicine because there’s really strong primary care in North Carolina, and then, they have this underserved track that I was really interested in, especially the clinic at Prospect Hill. So it was an FQHC, so I wanted to kind of work in an FQHC, and they have 60% Latino patients that we see, so that’s kind of how I ended up here, long story short, yeah. And I’ll be continuing actually working with a similar type of population after I graduate in June, so I’ll be working at Caswell Family Medical Center, which is about twenty minutes north of Prospect Hill, so, a rural clinic there, yeah.
AS: Cool, perfect. You mentioned the Manna Project International in Ecuador, what is that nonprofit, what do they do? And also, is that where you learned Spanish, or did you—
[00:04:22] SZT: Yeah, that’s where I learned Spanish. Yeah, it is, it’s a—so, basically, it’s a community development type of nonprofit organization where they take graduate students from college and kind of have, they, whatever passions that they specifically have, so they kind of can start their own programs. But when we were there, it was actually just the second year, so it was still really early on in its, this was like 2008, so it was started in 2007, and so a lot of it was foundation building and starting new programs. So my focus was on everything health related, so kind of starting any sort of health related programs. A lot of it was kind of, we did a community needs assessment to see what kind of programs the community would be interested in, so, ended up starting a women’s health and an exercise, a nutrition program there, which actually is still running today, which is really exciting. And then, did a lot of work with working with the Ministry of Health, and then trying to connect patients, or trying to connect a lot of the community members with the public health system there. And then doing a lot of, a lot of my work was with networking and then working with these other local clinics to try to expand their clinic. And then we host a bunch of medical students and spring break volunteers and things like that, and, I think those were the main things. We—oh, and we started a, a library, a teen library in the community, which is actually where, it was actually really cool that we did that, because now that kind of is our base now where people can go there for resources, public health type resources, medical resources, so we’re starting kind of expanding there. So, I haven’t been back since then, but I heard it’s doing really really well, so I think those were the main things, but yeah, that’s kind of, so, my niche was health, and then seven other graduates who were there with me—one person was focused on English, another person was focused on art, another one was focused on microfinance, another was agriculture, so it was kind of a little bit of everybody doing their own thing, so kind of things like that.
AS: That’s really cool.
SZT: Yeah so it was kind of cool. And it’s asset-based community development is kind of the things that we were doing.
AS: That’s awesome. [00:06:50] Okay, can you explain to me what an FQHC is, to start, and then, a little bit about the Prospect Hill clinic in particular, like the range of services that you guys offer?
SZT: Sure. So federal—FQHC stands for federally qualified health center, so, the brief explanation of that is basically, there’s—it’s—there’s a lot of different types of safety net clinics in the, in the country, and it’s federally funded so they have to—there’s a bunch of different rules that I won’t go into detail with, but every single clinic has to meet a specific criteria, has to serve a specific amount of underserved, Medicaid underserved patients. But they basically just provide a lot of the services that they, and otherwise other people can’t get. And Prospect Hill has been, is one of several, I forget how many exactly, but there’s—it’s part of the PHS community, the Piedmont Health Services, and so, there’s quite a few in this area, I don’t know, I think five or six, they’re expanding, and Prospect Hill is the largest one in the area. The headquarters are in Carrboro, but, so basically it offers primary care, and dental care, WIC, pharmacy, they have this migrant healthcare program, and they serve mainly, like 60% Latino patients, and the rest of it’s kind of mixed Caucasian, African Americans, and then others. And it is, and I don’t know the exact percentages, but there, majority is uninsured, and then I think—I wanna say like thirty, thirty-something percent or forty-something percent, and then I think after that is like twenty-something percent Medicaid, and then after that Medicare, and then a smaller percentage private insurance. Is there anything specific else that you wanted to know about it?
AS: No, I think that covered everything.
SZT: Yeah, okay. Yeah, they have a pretty wide range of services that they, that they provide for patients and, but yeah, it’s mainly primary care, we do, we do, it’s like, Prospect Hill specifically is run by, is a resident—so it’s a teaching clinic, so residents work there, and our program, two from each—they’re expanding—but in our, in my class, it’s ten total residents, and two of us are in the underserved track, so we work in Prospect Hill. But then, after that, or before, or the classes after us it’s three, three residents, so there’s eleven total and three of them, and then actually next year they’re, we’re expanding to fourteen total, so there will be three residents from, going to Prospect Hill and three residents going to Siler City PHS, yeah, and then the rest of them are in the main family medicine clinic. So it’s kind of neat, so we’re getting more, more people, so yeah.
AS: Do you know—I just thought of this—do you know how long the clinic has been around?
SZT: Oh, man. I’d have to look it up. I don’t want to give you the wrong information.
AS: Yeah, no, that’s fine.
SZT: I feel like seventies, but, I’ll look it up for you.
AS: Yeah, that’s fine. [00:10:21] Okay, we’re gonna move into talking a little bit about the barriers to healthcare that these Latin American immigrant patients are facing. So I know you speak fluent Spanish; how much do you feel that has helped you connect with your patients and work with them?
SZT: Yeah, I think it’s, it’s helped a lot. I wouldn’t say I’m completely fluent, but, you know, enough to, enough to understand people and not cause a lawsuit, but it helps so much because there’s a lot of things that get lost in translation, and, and that’s a reason why there’s so many Latinos that come to our clinic, because, because we have bilingual staff members. And then, and the providers obviously have to be able to speak Spanish because we don’t have interpreters there, but there’s a huge difference when you—because I’ve definitely dealt with patients who speak a different language and, and there’s almost always something that I know is lost in translation. And I speak Mandarin so I know I used to interpret for Mandarin, and there’s many many times where they would speak to, you know the, when the patient would tell me something, and it’s like impossible to translate because there’s just, there’s a lot of cultural implications to it that it’s very difficult to translate into English without those backgrounds, and I think—and I know I’m from a different culture so there’s still probably things that I’m, that I’m not getting completely, but just being able to have the patient communicate you directly and being able to know that you’re at least, you know, in there, speaking their language and trying to understand them and get to their level I think makes a big difference in their relationship and having them, and trying to meet them where they’re at. So, I think it makes a big difference to try to at least get rid of those barriers, because that’s one of the things that they have to deal, another barrier they have to deal with in this, trying to, you know, getting used to being in this country, so.
[00:12:30] AS: Then, aside from language, are there other cultural barriers that you’ve encountered—maybe like differences of opinion on medicine, or any sort of thing like that?
SZT: Yeah, yeah. I think, there’s a lot of subtle things. I’m trying to think of a specific, a specific example. I mean little things, like in a lot of—I’ve noticed in Latino cultures, they’ll take medicines, but they’ll stop taking them as soon as they feel better, and there’s not really an understanding that you have to keep taking this medicine in order for you to get better, like, for instance, antibiotics is an example, they start feeling better and they stop early. Blood pressure medication, any sort of medication really is once they start feeling better, they think they can stop. And this has been a problem that I’ve seen over and over again with medication adherence. With people that come back a lot, you know, keep coming back, and then you realize they, you realize that they, they just stopped their medication. And a lot of this is cultural, but a lot of this is education as well. I can think of one of my patients actually who I just saw and diagnosed him with heart failure, really really really bad heart failure, so, ended up getting him on the right medication and then getting him, getting all these tests and things like that got him to take them and then literally I’ve been seeing him every three to six months—he no shows a lot—but when he does come, it’s the same, we’ve had the same conversation like six times, where he just, he just stopped taking his meds, that he hasn’t filled them for three months because he said he feels fine, he doesn’t need to take them. Doesn’t seem to get it that you have to keep taking them in order to prevent complications. I think we finally got to him, but it took like six or seven visits to finally, to finally have him understand that. And, so that’s one thing, and there’s little things like, I don’t know. I feel like there’s a lot of Hispanic people that I’ve seen who think, who attribute high cholesterol to, I’m trying to think what was it—I think, any time they have sort of, muscle pains or some sort of issues they always attribute it to cholesterol problems. I don’t know, that’s just a random thing I thought of. That’s not really that relevant. So, but those are, I mean that’s one example, but. And they basically, I’ve found that, a big difference in Latino populations and maybe more so, than in comparison to maybe white and African Americans, they’re very respectful, they’re very respectful of your authority, and they listen to everything that you, that you say. And, so, I mean, it makes them really—it’s a really really great population to work with. They, they do, it is, they do, they—I’m trying to think of a way to say it—they’re just, they’re really appreciative, you know, and they don’t take what, they don’t take coming to the doctor all those things for granted, they really do take that for heart, so I think that makes your job easier, even though you deal with very complex patients, complex social issues, things like that, but, I don’t know, they’re just a joy to kind of work with.
AS: Yeah. [00:16:20] What about alternative medicine, do any of them talk about that at all?
SZT: No I personally haven’t, I know that that’s been something, I know a—I always ask but actually I personally haven’t seen that much, which I was actually really surprised about. I saw, I see it a lot more in different types of non-Latino cultures, which actually was really, is really surprising to me. But in this specific clinic, not a lot of people I know have been doing alternative-type medicines. I mean, some people take supplements and things like that, but I actually found that a lot of people who are even poor more, it’s ironic like a lot of people who are more, even more educated or have a, come from affluent backgrounds, do more alternative medicines. But, at least from my experiences in this clinic, not many people do alternative medicines. When you say alternative medicine, do you mean things like herbs, or, you know, like shaman, things like that, or like acupuncture, or…
AS: Yeah. When I talked to Bryan, he mentioned some of the farmworkers talking about going to see hueseros or curanderos.
SZT: Oh yeah, yeah. I haven’t personally dealt with it but I think that’s something that I don’t routinely ask and I should, I know I should be asking, but we generally have so many other things to deal with that I usually don’t end up asking. But that’s actually a good point, I’m sure that some of them do, but, I always recommend, you know, an alternative approach in many different types of things but most people can’t afford it. But, yeah. I, I don’t personally know, at least in my patients, I’ve never had that problem or at least yeah…
AS: So, another thing, I know—[00:18:28] I’ve read things about, with mental health, Latino populations maybe not being as open to talking about that. Have you found that to be accurate or no?
SZT: Yeah, pretty accurate, depending on, yeah, depending on the situation, but what I’ve found is that a lot of times, people will come in with somatic complaints, and there’s usually, when you can’t find a—most of the time—you can’t find a physical cause, and it ends up being, being a, something psychological. So, there’s usually, for example, the other day I saw a guy in his fifties with erectile dysfunction, and after talking to him for a bit, you know, he, finally he opened up a little bit, and it was, I found out it was because his brother was murdered, and about a month ago when all of this stuff happened—when it started happening, so, that’s, you know, that’s an example, where they, and he has been super, you know, going through a lot of acute stress and all of these issues, and then it ends up manifesting in a variety of other physical complaints. So they come to, they come to me for these physical complaints, but then once you explore further you realize there’s, most of the time it’s some sort of something else is going on. I saw this a lot after Trump got elected, actually, and I’m not gonna go into politics a lot, but we saw actually back we saw a lot of people come in with actual physical symptoms, like vomiting, nausea, abdominal pain, which did not have any medical causes, and it all had to do with anxiety and things like that, so Melissa was really busy then—you know Melissa, she’s our behavioral health—so, but yeah. I mean, it’s a big issue. And a lot of people don’t talk about it until, but then if you, once you develop a relationship with them, they’re a lot more open, but almost every single one I would feel like has some sort of manifestation, psychological manifestation from a lot of the stress that they deal with from being in, you know, just living, being an immigrant and not understanding a lot of the, a lot of the policies and things like that, but, yeah.
AS: That is very interesting. And then if something like that happens, if you recommend that they get kind of some mental health treatment, are they normally open to it at that point?
SZT: Yeah, most of them are, and I think once you start, once we identify the issue I think they all, most of them are always open to wanting to try any—something. I think a lot of the problems, I don’t know, this would be—I wish you could talk to Luke Smith, because he’s the psychiatrist, but he, but he sees a lot of, a lot of people with a wide variety of issues, but he actually has had to deliver medicines to their homes because—like literally he would personally take these medicines and drive and go to these peoples’ homes and give them the medicines because they have been, [00:22:04] they have been afraid to come to the clinic, and we’ve seen that happen a lot in the aftermath of the election too, where, I know I’m kind of going on a tangent, but they—
AS: You’re good. It’s relevant.
SZT: They, a lot of times, we—you know, we have, we start people on treatment, or start getting them into behavioral therapy, but then the problem is follow-up and having them come back and then, especially, it’s getting a little better now but there was a period of time where we would see a lot of gaps where people would just stop coming in, for months upon months and months and then a lot of it has to do with fear of being caught, of being, you know, I know that deals with more the undocumented part, but it was a huge issue back at that time. We saw a lot of the first hand consequences of that. But yeah, to the point where people have to go to their house to deliver the medicines because they were afraid, you know, to come to the clinic, so, yeah.
AS: Yeah, I read actually a New York Times article about that, because Bryan mentioned it to me during the interview—
SZT: Oh yeah.
AS: Where they interviewed Dr. Ashkin for it. Yeah, yeah. Okay, is—aside from just fear, [00:23:29] is having the time to come in or being able to get transportation ever an issue for your patients?
SZT: Yeah, yeah. Transportation is a huge issue, and our, we have, we have a pretty—I think our no show rate is about 30ish percentage, and transpor—there’s a lot of barriers, but transportation is one of them. A huge issue, because, you know, we’re, most of these families are single family homes, they have a breadwinner, they usually have one car, and they always have to find a way to get them to the clinic, and then if some—you know, it’s like—or a single mom, or—overall it’s a big issue, a lot of them can’t drive and, so that’s one of the reasons why our no show rate is so high is because they can’t get a way, find a way to get to the clinic. Some people come from really far away. A lot of actually our patients drive all the way from Virginia, or from Greensboro because we’re the closest safety net clinic in their area because it’s a little bit cheaper to go to our clinic than some of the other clinics in their area, so. There’s also just a lack overall of access to clinics in the rural communities overall, especially these types of FQHC clinics, especially nowadays where they’re closing a lot of these community health centers in the area, or at least defunding, not closing, but there’s a lot, there’s a huge problem with defunding these community health centers with this new administration, so—so yeah, people travel for like two hours, up to two hours, I think one of my patients went three, traveled three hours just to get here, so, you know. It’s like, when you find that out, that you know they’re, if they’re late, or they no show, you know, you kind of, it’s like they, they drove really far to get here to see us, so.
AS: That’s pretty crazy. So then, in terms of paying for the appointments, I know obviously the prices are reduced a lot and you have the sliding scale, right, based on income, [00:25:50] but is payment still an issue for some patients?
SZT: Payment is still an issue, especially—I think with the primary care stuff, especially if they don’t have insurance, I think it’s fine, but the problem really is getting specialty care or getting any sort of further diagnostic tests and things like that, and affording medicines and things. But I mean, coming to the visit and all those things, that’s, they usually, you know, will cover it, if you’re uninsured it’s like twenty-five dollars. And if they’re in a sliding scale I’m not really sure I think they don’t have to pay anything. I’m not, I’m not sure the details I’ll have to ask Tashia the exact cost of it, but, but yeah, I mean I think the biggest issue is really just getting full care, because they, you know, we have to be really careful about what labs we order, in case they get charged for it. You know, we have to be very careful about what tests to order. There are times we absolutely need this person to get, this person needs this, needs this CT scan, or needs this MRI scan, and we know they can’t afford it. So, those are always problems that we deal with on a regular basis, where Tashia ends up having to try to get them into either emergency Medicaid, or some sort of charity care, but then, but then there’s problems with trying to, understanding how to apply for that, and all of those problems, but. But yeah, cost is always an issue, we always have to keep that in mind when we’re ordering tests and when we’re putting them into referrals, because we know most of the time they won’t end up going because they—it’s not because they don’t want to, they know, or they can’t, it’s because they can’t, you know, they can’t afford it. They are afraid of, ( ) or they have to, it’s either, you know, they pay for their medicines or they pay for, they feed their family. Or it’s like, you know, they have have to make that choice, so, you know.
AS: Yeah. Okay, let’s see. What about, we talked about—a little bit—about education being an issue. [00:28:13] Is there also a lot of confusion and misinformation, I guess, about how the American healthcare system works? Do your patients have difficulty understanding that? I would imagine, it’s kind of confusing [laughter].
SZT: Yeah, I mean, I don’t get it, I don’t get it. I actually studied it, and I still don’t get it. So, I mean, if I don’t get it, I mean I’m pretty sure somebody with a third grade education who can’t speak English doesn’t get it. It’s so confusing, and I feel like it, it’s just, it keeps changing, and it definitely affects them because most, a lot of the, a lot of immigrants don’t realize—Latino immigrants—don’t realize that they are eligible for, for example Medicaid, or if they’re pregnant they, they are eligible for emergency Medicaid. Most people are uninsured because they don’t know how to, they don’t know how to navigate the system or they don’t have the resources, they don’t have somebody to kind of help them with it. So, they come to our clinic for the first time, even though you realize they, they are eligible, and then, but the paperwork to even get them—even I look at the paperwork and it’s so confusing, and then having to deal with it and trying to get it in Spanish and things like that, and a lot people, we get this all the time, where even some, some, some staff members are like why can’t, you know, if they’ve been in this country for this many years, how come they can’t speak English yet? But it’s, it’s a lot more complicated than that, when, you know, when you, when you only have a, a elementary school education, you know, and coming to this country and then learning a new language as an adult without even that primary education, it’s sometimes nearly impossible to try to learn a new language, so, it’s like—and then a lot of these, a lot of these people are coming from backgrounds where they had to deal with trauma, or they left their country because of trauma, or some other issue, and that has a huge effect, detrimental effect on your cognitive, learning and all of those abilities. And so, it’s not, it’s not that simple to be able to learn a new language and be able to navigate those systems and understand these things. So, I’m really impressed by a lot of, how a lot of the, a lot of these, our patients have been able to navigate the system, like being able to at least deal with kind of assimilate—or not assimilate that’s the wrong word—but being able to kind of adjust to a lot of the cultures here. But, yeah, I mean, it’s very confusing, and, so, coming from a whole different culture, a whole different background—I, I, I’m really impressed that they are able to figure it out because it’s really—with minimal assistance, because they, you know, overall have to, there’s a lot of other things I’m sure that they have to deal with, so. But yeah, that’s a huge barrier, just being able to know if you’re eligible or not, and being able to get all that paperwork filled out, so.
AS: Are there any, I know you mentioned the physical manifestations of mental health issues being pretty common, but [00:31:37] are there any issues that are particularly prevalent among the Latino populations that you serve?
SZT: Like different types of medical conditions or things like that?
AS: Yeah.
SZT: Yeah so, I would say it’s pretty common, pretty similar maybe to the, any sort of, like the general population, but there’s, I think, there’s definitely more disparities that you see in Latino populations, but there’s disproportionately higher numbers of obesity, diabetes, and that kind of comes with heart disease and blood pressure issues—hypertension, depression, and then, the common musculoskeletal things, like back pain, shoulder pains, and, you know, a lot of—depends on their occupation too, but people who work in, you know, farmworkers, they come in with a bunch of different musculoskeletal issues. But, but mainly the biggest things we still see are just diabetes, obesity, hypertension, like the rest of this population, but more, much more so in the Latino population because, because of their lack of access to healthy foods, and their diet in general, it’s a very carb-heavy diet, but yeah, we see that, we see that a lot, and so, yeah.
AS: Yeah.
SZT: Hepatitis ( )
AS: Gotcha. This is somewhat related to that, I’m kind of curious what you think. I was asked in a public health class one time, we were asked to write a paper, the question was do you choose your own health, and they asked us to kind of put a percentage on it, like [00:33:31] how much do you choose your own health, or how much is it affected by other things. You don’t have to necessarily put a percentage on it, but I’m kind of curious what you would think about that question.
SZT: Oh that’s a, yeah, choose your own health—that’s hard. I—there’s so much more to health than just, and obviously we say, you know, you can, we, I feel like our society blames so much on the individual, like you get to choose to be healthy, you get to kind of, you know, choose not to smoke and eat healthy and all of these things, but only if you have a certain amount of money, only if you have a certain amount of support and live in a certain amount of, certain area, it’s—if you’re gonna live in a rural community, where the nearest store is a liquor store or a, you know a ( ), nearest is a Dollar General and, you know, you’re making less than, way less than fifty percent of the federal poverty level, you, you obviously want to choose to be healthy, but you don’t have the resources to be healthy. So, there’s so much more than just—I don’t know how to put it into a percentage—but, you can choose to be healthy if you have the resources to do that. But if you, if you, you know, if you’re one of—I’m trying to think—one of my patients who’s like, who has—okay, I’m just thinking of one patient I just saw. She’s, she has seven children, she’s pregnant with her eighth, who has Down—now we found out that her, has Down Syndrome. And not all of these pregnancies were from the same dad, a lot of them were forced, wasn’t like she was trying to get pregnant, they were forced, like rape, basically. And no access to family planning, so it’s, she wasn’t able to—a lot of this happened in other, I think it was El Salvador, and, she’s by herself, she’s single now, because the dad was abusive, so now they’re out of the picture. Her other kids, literally one time I had a visit with her and six of her children. It was a well child visit that were not well child. Like every single one of their kids has issues because of the trauma that they’ve been through. I mean, I don’t know, and then, obviously she has health, she has a bunch of health issues. She has diabetes, and hypertension, and all this other stuff because she has to, she has to feed her, her family, and she has to, she can’t eat healthy because she doesn’t, it’s too expensive to eat healthy, and so they have to take fast food, or they have to eat, you know, spend whatever little money, food stamps she has, so, yeah. I mean, it’s an interesting question, but I think you can but you can’t it depends, to a certain extent depending on your situation. It’s like—it’s a tricky question, so, but it, it’s not just, and you can’t—it’s not individual, I think here, it’s a very population, socially construed answer, or topic, so. Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t have a good answer to that.
AS: No that was, that was a good answer. Are there any major barriers that we haven’t talked about thus far?
SZT: Let me think, let’s see. I think we talked about education, we talked about transportation, food, health, mental health access, uninsured. I think we’ve touched on, we’ve touched on most things. I’m trying to think if there’s anything else. I’ll think about it. I think those are, you’ve touched about all the major things.
AS: Cool. Okay, and then, [00:38:08] I know that you’re an immigrant yourself. Has that kind of, I don’t know, affected at all how you interact with immigrant populations or anything, or the way you think about immigrant populations?
SZT: That’s interesting, I’ve actually never thought of it that way. I think it definitely does though, because, you know, I mean, I’ve seen firsthand the things that my parents dealt with when they first came here. And, you know, we all have very similar—the reasons why, everybody, the immigrants that come to this country is for trying to better the future for the next generation. That’s the only reason why my parents came here, so I could have a better life. You know, they largely succeeded on that. They didn’t, they went through a lot of sacrificies, it wasn’t like we were rich when we came here. You know, they, they were pretty, we stayed in a small studio, little apartment when we, they kind of worked their way up, but it wasn’t, it took many many many years before they were able to, you know, get a house, for example. So it was, I mean, we did, we struggled a lot in the beginning. And I think I can relate, relate to some of the other immigrant families who are kind of going through the same thing and I think, I mean, and especially nowadays getting—it’s just, it’s a weird time. I don’t know. It’s, it’s interesting, we all, I think, my parents dealt with their own kind of discrimination, but, but I feel like it’s just escalated now, it’s a weird, it’s an interesting time for you to be doing this project, because there’s so much tension right now, especially with—I feel like me being Asian, it’s like we’re kind of left out of a lot of this racial discourse, but, that’s a whole other topic that I won’t get into, but.
AS: ( )
SZT: Oh really? Yeah, so, but yeah I mean yeah, I feel I can really relate to a lot of the immigrant story just because I’ve been through some of it myself. But, I mean, we’ll see what the future brings, but right now, I mean, I feel like it’s gotten better, but right now, at this time, it’s kind of in a weird moment where we can either way, but, yeah, we’ll see.
AS: Yeah. Did your parents know any English before they came here, or have they learned it here?
SZT: They were—they did, and didn’t. And so my dad, my dad came first. He, his English wasn’t good, they had to learn a little bit, you know, but obviously his conversational English was pretty terrible. It took, I think it took him, he said that he practiced, oh what was it he, he practiced in front of his mirror like fifty-something times, where can I get a taxi? That was like the first thing he had to ask somebody, but he, you know, he’s like, he was a, top of his class, valedictorian when he was in China, but he was getting Cs, almost failing his classes when he came here because he couldn’t understand, so, but then, you know, he, they—my parents both were well educated, so they were able to eventually learn English and being able to get, get there, but it took a while. And they still, there’s still little things, you know, when you learn a new language in your twenties, it’s never gonna be perfect, you know, like if you learn it as you were a child. So, but yeah. They did, they were a little bit more fortunate, though ( ).
AS: Yeah, yeah. Okay, kind of a little bit of a different topic, [00:42:22] I think Bryan said when I was interviewing him that you had gone out with them before to the fields—
SZT: Oh yeah
AS: Yeah, could you tell me a little bit about that?
SZT: Yeah, yeah I’ve just, I’ve only gotten to go out with him once. We went to, we went to this one—we went to a couple families. One of them was, it was this—it was a migrant farmworkers who was, I forgot how, I think they were there just for a few months. Pretty modest, they lived in this, they all live in these little mobile homes. And, it was a great experience. Most of the time they just spent, we just spent kind of chatting with them about completely non-health related things and just kind of, they were just, we were just, you know, talking about their, I don’t know everyday, something, like they were making jokes and everything like that. But it was a great experience because you got to see how they lived, got to kind of see what kind of conditions they lived in. I think relatively speaking, I mean that’s a whole, a whole different topic too, but they have, there’s a lot, there’s been a lot of farmworkers that go through—I mean you know, there’s a lot of maltreatment in the history of that, where they’ve taken advantage of, where they don’t—they get pretty minimal payment for the amount of work they do. I think the different policies like that have changed a lot but, but yeah, I mean overall it’s like, they seem to have a pretty, I mean they all have a pretty modest living, but they, you know, they haven’t seen a doctor in many years, so I ended up trying to get them to come see us, but then it’s like being able to have them find a time to see us. They really, they usually, the only time they can come is on Thursday nights when they, you know, they can, they can, where they’re done with work. But, yeah, but I mean I really liked it, just to be able to kind of see how they’re living and kind of just chat with them, just see how they are. But, I mean it’s hard, because they’ll be in a, they’re away from their families for sometimes like a year at a time, but they’re all doing this just so they can bring money back to their family, so, it’s kind of cool to see that. They work extremely hard, so yeah, but, I mean, it’s a cool program, I think.
AS: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Sorry, I’m jumping all over the place a little bit here, the questions are just kind of popping into my head.
SZT: It’s okay.
[00:44:59] AS: Have there been any, I guess, immigrant stories that have been particularly difficult for you to kind of hear? Probably a lot, but I don’t know if anything sticks out.
SZT: Yeah, yeah. I think Melissa would be a great person to talk to about that, but I mean one time—well I had one, one lady come see me. She came to see me for an acute complaint, for something, I forget what it was, it was like, I don’t know, pain somewhere or was it, I don’t know, vaginal discharge, I don’t remember what it was, but it was one of those where I was running behind, per usual, was my, maybe like half way done, and there were patients waiting, and I was like oh this will be easy, I’m gonna get this done really quickly. And then, something didn’t feel right with her, I don’t know how, what it was, but just it was the first time I was meeting her but just something wasn’t right, and then, as soon as I was kind of done with her, I was about to, I wanted to just kind of get things done, but then, just noticing that there was, I don’t know, like there was something off. So I just kind of probed a little bit and asked her if there was something, you know, if there was anything else she wanted to talk about, what else is going on. And I, and usually, when I’m in a hurry I don’t ask that because I know I need to move along but with her, I don’t know. And then she just started bursting into tears. And then you’re like okay, now I’m screwed, like the rest of my day is done.
AS: Yeah, yeah.
SZT: And then basically she told me that they went to the—her and her family, her husband and her, their son, went to a beach in Myrtle Beach for vacation the past week. And then, her husband was basically just, their son was like five years old, and he peed on himself, so, accidentally peed on himself, so he was just changing his clothes on the beach. And then they said that when they were going back to the hotel there was cops there. And then apparently, they took, they basically took him in for questioning, said that somebody from the beach, or somebody reported that he was molesting this child or something like that. And, of course, there was a language barrier and blah blah blah, she was letting them know like no, this is his son, he was changing his pants. And, but somebody reported that they were, that whatever, and, and so, what ended up happening, they had to take him in for questioning with, go through his records, and they found out that he was undocumented, and then, now, he, basically they’ve detained him, and then were kind of in that process of getting him deported. All because somebody, somebody from the beach was, I mean, it was very very clear that he was his dad, and was doing that, but, I don’t know. And so, so she was really upset because she didn’t know what to do, and she was trying to, in the process of trying to get a lawyer, and trying to, but, you know, didn’t have the money to do that, it was just a mess. So, I don’t know, so that kind of stuck with me. Just like a nice little vacation and then having somebody say—accuse your husband of, of abusing your child, and then having, the next thing you know having him be under ICE detention and being deported, so, it’s like, I don’t know, it sucks.
AS: Yeah, yeah.
SZT: And she’s, and she’s afraid to do something about it because she’s also undocumented, so it’s like, a mess.
AS: Yeah, that’s, that’s pretty awful. Do you, you mentioned the time thing, having enough time to talk to the patients. [00:49:15] Do you feel like that’s an issue for you, not having enough time to be with each patient?
SZT: I mean, that’s, that’s a struggle. That’s a huge struggle in primary care because, you know, on average we get fifteen minutes for each patient and that’s literally impossible to get through any really, true visit, unless they’re, you know, they’re coming in with a cold, you can deal with that. But most people, most people don’t, don’t come in with just one complaint, especially, especially, and even if they’re Spanish-speaking sometimes it takes a little bit longer, you know, mostly just because there’s sometimes words that if I don’t understand I have to re ask them and things like that, but yeah. Or if they’re traveling so far and then they get here and, you know, you want to get all their complaints because you now they’re not gonna come back, and then you realize a lot of these patients don’t, aren’t able to, like having a visit to come is a big deal for them because of the, of a lot of the barriers that we already have talked about. So, you want to try to get, address all of their issues, but time is always, it’s always an issue. And I feel like, it doesn’t ever feel, you know, like you’re able to get everything done. You can’t, you can’t get anything done in fifteen/twenty minutes, I mean yeah, so. I mean the other day I had a twenty minute visit for a new patient who was in her forties. She was Latina too, and she hasn’t seen a doctor for twenty years. So, you’re like, great. And then her sugars were so high that you couldn’t read it on the, on the glucometer. She’s like, her sister brought her in and her sister tells me that she, she stopped speaking fifteen years ago, so this patient’s mute, so she can’t talk. And so you have no idea what happened, she can’t, she, yeah I don’t know, she just stopped talking, she just suddenly stopped talking. So you have no idea, and literally this was the visit. Like this [laughter], this patient just comes in and then, of course every single thing. Her blood pressure was messed up, her, everything was just, it was just a mess of a, a visit. That you can, twenty minutes for, fifteen/twenty minutes for trying to figure out all of those things and why she stopped talking. Later on, I found out it was trauma, actually, it was abuse by her uncle that we found out later on, with, through Melissa, but, with Melissa’s help. But this was after multiple visits, you know, so, but yeah, that is what we deal with, people that come in who haven’t been seen, so.
AS: Yeah. I think that is all the questions that I have, is there anything else that you want to add?
SZT: I don’t know—yeah, I mean, thanks for doing this project. [00:52:21] I think this is a very valuable, and I’m really happy that, that you guys are studying this, and that that will hopefully increasing some more exposure, understanding to the, to the, you know. I think, I just feel like there’d be so much more love and so much more relationships, or, I mean, communication between different types of people if we just had, if we were just exposed, or if—
AS: Yeah.
SZT: You know, people who, I guess, people who might have these types of biases, just kind of learn about their situation and then, yeah. I just think, we just, we would make a big difference, so.
AS: Yeah.
SZT: So I’m glad that you’re doing this project.
AS: Yeah, thank you so much for your time, for helping out.
SZT: Yeah, yeah. [00:53:17]
END OF INTERVIEW
TRANSCRIBED BY ANNA SILVER
12 APRIL 2018
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Médicos
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Dr. Serena Zhou-Talbert inmigró a los Estados Unidos de China cuando tenía tres años. Tiene títulos en la salud pública y la medicina, y actualmente trabaja como residente en la medicina familiar en el centro de salud comunitario Prospect Hill, un Centro de Salud con Calificación Federal (FQHC, por sus siglas en inglés) que sirve una población que es sesenta por ciento Hispano. En esta entrevista, ella discute las barreras para sus pacientes en acceder a servicios de salud y cuenta historias sobre algunos de sus pacientes como ejemplos. También ella discute brevemente su identidad como inmigrante. Esta entrevista es parte de un proyecto de GLBL 382 investigando barreras para inmigrantes en Carolina del Norte para acceder a cuidado de salud. Como parte de este curso, estudiantes también viajar a Guanajuato, México durante las vacaciones de la primavera. Además, Anna Silver está haciendo trabajo voluntario como un tutor del inglés para inmigrantes durante el semestre como parte de un requisito de servicio-aprendizaje para desarrollar relaciones con comunidades de inmigrantes.
Es: Temas
Salud; Cuidado de la salud; Experiencia migratoria; Trabajadores agrícolas; Programas y servicios sociales y comunitarios
Es: Transcripción
Anna Silver: So, my name is Anna Silver, and I am here interviewing Dr. Serena Zhou-Talbert about her work with immigrants at the Prospect Hill Community Health Center as a doctor. The date is April 8, and it is 3:05 PM. To start, can you tell me a little bit about your background, kind of where you grew up, and then a little bit of maybe education and work history, and how you came to be working here at Prospect Hill?
[00:00:31] Serena Zhou-Talbert: Okay, so, a brief history. I was born in China—Shanghai, China—came to the United States when I was three. Moved—moved around a bunch of places, so, went from Minnesota to Mississippi, lived there for a year, spent a little bit of time in Arizona, and then moved to Connecticut for high school. Went to college at Johns Hopkins to study behavioral biology there, and then during the interim, when I was in Johns Hopkins, my parents moved to South Carolina, which is where they are now. And then I was also pre-med in Johns Hopkins, that was kind of, wasn’t really sure I wanted to go to med school though, however. Ended up doing an internship, worked with a lot of issues—dealt with issues with racial and ethnic health disparities, and that was kind of how I started getting interested in public health and health disparities and issues like that. And then after that, I spent a little time abroad in, in Shanghai, China, and then, got exposed to alternative types of medicine I think so, that was kind of my first interest in medicine. After college, I spent a year abroad in Ecuador, and I was working—working in community development, so I was in charge of this, the health programs for a nonprofit called Manna Project International, and then I think that’s kind of how I got interested in working with Latino populations, like global health and kind of tied that into healthcare. And then after that I spent, moved to California, where my then boyfriend, now husband was, and then spent a year kind of doing random jobs and then did an MPH, deferred a year for med school to do an MPH in public health, and global health, a focus on global health. And then ended up going to Michigan State University for med school, mainly chose that because of their, their—they have a pretty high emphasis on primary care, strong primary care focus, so went there for medical school. Did a, was under there—there was a leadership for the underserved track that they did, so I was a part of that. And then ended up going into family medicine for a lot of the same issues, or a lot of the same reasons as I mentioned, their emphasis in public health and being able to kind of, being able to have that first point of contact, the first point of relationship for patients, and have that, maintain that kind of continuity, being able to deal with a wide variety of issues, and then, yeah. So chose UNC Family Medicine because there’s really strong primary care in North Carolina, and then, they have this underserved track that I was really interested in, especially the clinic at Prospect Hill. So it was an FQHC, so I wanted to kind of work in an FQHC, and they have 60% Latino patients that we see, so that’s kind of how I ended up here, long story short, yeah. And I’ll be continuing actually working with a similar type of population after I graduate in June, so I’ll be working at Caswell Family Medical Center, which is about twenty minutes north of Prospect Hill, so, a rural clinic there, yeah.
AS: Cool, perfect. You mentioned the Manna Project International in Ecuador, what is that nonprofit, what do they do? And also, is that where you learned Spanish, or did you—
[00:04:22] SZT: Yeah, that’s where I learned Spanish. Yeah, it is, it’s a—so, basically, it’s a community development type of nonprofit organization where they take graduate students from college and kind of have, they, whatever passions that they specifically have, so they kind of can start their own programs. But when we were there, it was actually just the second year, so it was still really early on in its, this was like 2008, so it was started in 2007, and so a lot of it was foundation building and starting new programs. So my focus was on everything health related, so kind of starting any sort of health related programs. A lot of it was kind of, we did a community needs assessment to see what kind of programs the community would be interested in, so, ended up starting a women’s health and an exercise, a nutrition program there, which actually is still running today, which is really exciting. And then, did a lot of work with working with the Ministry of Health, and then trying to connect patients, or trying to connect a lot of the community members with the public health system there. And then doing a lot of, a lot of my work was with networking and then working with these other local clinics to try to expand their clinic. And then we host a bunch of medical students and spring break volunteers and things like that, and, I think those were the main things. We—oh, and we started a, a library, a teen library in the community, which is actually where, it was actually really cool that we did that, because now that kind of is our base now where people can go there for resources, public health type resources, medical resources, so we’re starting kind of expanding there. So, I haven’t been back since then, but I heard it’s doing really really well, so I think those were the main things, but yeah, that’s kind of, so, my niche was health, and then seven other graduates who were there with me—one person was focused on English, another person was focused on art, another one was focused on microfinance, another was agriculture, so it was kind of a little bit of everybody doing their own thing, so kind of things like that.
AS: That’s really cool.
SZT: Yeah so it was kind of cool. And it’s asset-based community development is kind of the things that we were doing.
AS: That’s awesome. [00:06:50] Okay, can you explain to me what an FQHC is, to start, and then, a little bit about the Prospect Hill clinic in particular, like the range of services that you guys offer?
SZT: Sure. So federal—FQHC stands for federally qualified health center, so, the brief explanation of that is basically, there’s—it’s—there’s a lot of different types of safety net clinics in the, in the country, and it’s federally funded so they have to—there’s a bunch of different rules that I won’t go into detail with, but every single clinic has to meet a specific criteria, has to serve a specific amount of underserved, Medicaid underserved patients. But they basically just provide a lot of the services that they, and otherwise other people can’t get. And Prospect Hill has been, is one of several, I forget how many exactly, but there’s—it’s part of the PHS community, the Piedmont Health Services, and so, there’s quite a few in this area, I don’t know, I think five or six, they’re expanding, and Prospect Hill is the largest one in the area. The headquarters are in Carrboro, but, so basically it offers primary care, and dental care, WIC, pharmacy, they have this migrant healthcare program, and they serve mainly, like 60% Latino patients, and the rest of it’s kind of mixed Caucasian, African Americans, and then others. And it is, and I don’t know the exact percentages, but there, majority is uninsured, and then I think—I wanna say like thirty, thirty-something percent or forty-something percent, and then I think after that is like twenty-something percent Medicaid, and then after that Medicare, and then a smaller percentage private insurance. Is there anything specific else that you wanted to know about it?
AS: No, I think that covered everything.
SZT: Yeah, okay. Yeah, they have a pretty wide range of services that they, that they provide for patients and, but yeah, it’s mainly primary care, we do, we do, it’s like, Prospect Hill specifically is run by, is a resident—so it’s a teaching clinic, so residents work there, and our program, two from each—they’re expanding—but in our, in my class, it’s ten total residents, and two of us are in the underserved track, so we work in Prospect Hill. But then, after that, or before, or the classes after us it’s three, three residents, so there’s eleven total and three of them, and then actually next year they’re, we’re expanding to fourteen total, so there will be three residents from, going to Prospect Hill and three residents going to Siler City PHS, yeah, and then the rest of them are in the main family medicine clinic. So it’s kind of neat, so we’re getting more, more people, so yeah.
AS: Do you know—I just thought of this—do you know how long the clinic has been around?
SZT: Oh, man. I’d have to look it up. I don’t want to give you the wrong information.
AS: Yeah, no, that’s fine.
SZT: I feel like seventies, but, I’ll look it up for you.
AS: Yeah, that’s fine. [00:10:21] Okay, we’re gonna move into talking a little bit about the barriers to healthcare that these Latin American immigrant patients are facing. So I know you speak fluent Spanish; how much do you feel that has helped you connect with your patients and work with them?
SZT: Yeah, I think it’s, it’s helped a lot. I wouldn’t say I’m completely fluent, but, you know, enough to, enough to understand people and not cause a lawsuit, but it helps so much because there’s a lot of things that get lost in translation, and, and that’s a reason why there’s so many Latinos that come to our clinic, because, because we have bilingual staff members. And then, and the providers obviously have to be able to speak Spanish because we don’t have interpreters there, but there’s a huge difference when you—because I’ve definitely dealt with patients who speak a different language and, and there’s almost always something that I know is lost in translation. And I speak Mandarin so I know I used to interpret for Mandarin, and there’s many many times where they would speak to, you know the, when the patient would tell me something, and it’s like impossible to translate because there’s just, there’s a lot of cultural implications to it that it’s very difficult to translate into English without those backgrounds, and I think—and I know I’m from a different culture so there’s still probably things that I’m, that I’m not getting completely, but just being able to have the patient communicate you directly and being able to know that you’re at least, you know, in there, speaking their language and trying to understand them and get to their level I think makes a big difference in their relationship and having them, and trying to meet them where they’re at. So, I think it makes a big difference to try to at least get rid of those barriers, because that’s one of the things that they have to deal, another barrier they have to deal with in this, trying to, you know, getting used to being in this country, so.
[00:12:30] AS: Then, aside from language, are there other cultural barriers that you’ve encountered—maybe like differences of opinion on medicine, or any sort of thing like that?
SZT: Yeah, yeah. I think, there’s a lot of subtle things. I’m trying to think of a specific, a specific example. I mean little things, like in a lot of—I’ve noticed in Latino cultures, they’ll take medicines, but they’ll stop taking them as soon as they feel better, and there’s not really an understanding that you have to keep taking this medicine in order for you to get better, like, for instance, antibiotics is an example, they start feeling better and they stop early. Blood pressure medication, any sort of medication really is once they start feeling better, they think they can stop. And this has been a problem that I’ve seen over and over again with medication adherence. With people that come back a lot, you know, keep coming back, and then you realize they, you realize that they, they just stopped their medication. And a lot of this is cultural, but a lot of this is education as well. I can think of one of my patients actually who I just saw and diagnosed him with heart failure, really really really bad heart failure, so, ended up getting him on the right medication and then getting him, getting all these tests and things like that got him to take them and then literally I’ve been seeing him every three to six months—he no shows a lot—but when he does come, it’s the same, we’ve had the same conversation like six times, where he just, he just stopped taking his meds, that he hasn’t filled them for three months because he said he feels fine, he doesn’t need to take them. Doesn’t seem to get it that you have to keep taking them in order to prevent complications. I think we finally got to him, but it took like six or seven visits to finally, to finally have him understand that. And, so that’s one thing, and there’s little things like, I don’t know. I feel like there’s a lot of Hispanic people that I’ve seen who think, who attribute high cholesterol to, I’m trying to think what was it—I think, any time they have sort of, muscle pains or some sort of issues they always attribute it to cholesterol problems. I don’t know, that’s just a random thing I thought of. That’s not really that relevant. So, but those are, I mean that’s one example, but. And they basically, I’ve found that, a big difference in Latino populations and maybe more so, than in comparison to maybe white and African Americans, they’re very respectful, they’re very respectful of your authority, and they listen to everything that you, that you say. And, so, I mean, it makes them really—it’s a really really great population to work with. They, they do, it is, they do, they—I’m trying to think of a way to say it—they’re just, they’re really appreciative, you know, and they don’t take what, they don’t take coming to the doctor all those things for granted, they really do take that for heart, so I think that makes your job easier, even though you deal with very complex patients, complex social issues, things like that, but, I don’t know, they’re just a joy to kind of work with.
AS: Yeah. [00:16:20] What about alternative medicine, do any of them talk about that at all?
SZT: No I personally haven’t, I know that that’s been something, I know a—I always ask but actually I personally haven’t seen that much, which I was actually really surprised about. I saw, I see it a lot more in different types of non-Latino cultures, which actually was really, is really surprising to me. But in this specific clinic, not a lot of people I know have been doing alternative-type medicines. I mean, some people take supplements and things like that, but I actually found that a lot of people who are even poor more, it’s ironic like a lot of people who are more, even more educated or have a, come from affluent backgrounds, do more alternative medicines. But, at least from my experiences in this clinic, not many people do alternative medicines. When you say alternative medicine, do you mean things like herbs, or, you know, like shaman, things like that, or like acupuncture, or…
AS: Yeah. When I talked to Bryan, he mentioned some of the farmworkers talking about going to see hueseros or curanderos.
SZT: Oh yeah, yeah. I haven’t personally dealt with it but I think that’s something that I don’t routinely ask and I should, I know I should be asking, but we generally have so many other things to deal with that I usually don’t end up asking. But that’s actually a good point, I’m sure that some of them do, but, I always recommend, you know, an alternative approach in many different types of things but most people can’t afford it. But, yeah. I, I don’t personally know, at least in my patients, I’ve never had that problem or at least yeah…
AS: So, another thing, I know—[00:18:28] I’ve read things about, with mental health, Latino populations maybe not being as open to talking about that. Have you found that to be accurate or no?
SZT: Yeah, pretty accurate, depending on, yeah, depending on the situation, but what I’ve found is that a lot of times, people will come in with somatic complaints, and there’s usually, when you can’t find a—most of the time—you can’t find a physical cause, and it ends up being, being a, something psychological. So, there’s usually, for example, the other day I saw a guy in his fifties with erectile dysfunction, and after talking to him for a bit, you know, he, finally he opened up a little bit, and it was, I found out it was because his brother was murdered, and about a month ago when all of this stuff happened—when it started happening, so, that’s, you know, that’s an example, where they, and he has been super, you know, going through a lot of acute stress and all of these issues, and then it ends up manifesting in a variety of other physical complaints. So they come to, they come to me for these physical complaints, but then once you explore further you realize there’s, most of the time it’s some sort of something else is going on. I saw this a lot after Trump got elected, actually, and I’m not gonna go into politics a lot, but we saw actually back we saw a lot of people come in with actual physical symptoms, like vomiting, nausea, abdominal pain, which did not have any medical causes, and it all had to do with anxiety and things like that, so Melissa was really busy then—you know Melissa, she’s our behavioral health—so, but yeah. I mean, it’s a big issue. And a lot of people don’t talk about it until, but then if you, once you develop a relationship with them, they’re a lot more open, but almost every single one I would feel like has some sort of manifestation, psychological manifestation from a lot of the stress that they deal with from being in, you know, just living, being an immigrant and not understanding a lot of the, a lot of the policies and things like that, but, yeah.
AS: That is very interesting. And then if something like that happens, if you recommend that they get kind of some mental health treatment, are they normally open to it at that point?
SZT: Yeah, most of them are, and I think once you start, once we identify the issue I think they all, most of them are always open to wanting to try any—something. I think a lot of the problems, I don’t know, this would be—I wish you could talk to Luke Smith, because he’s the psychiatrist, but he, but he sees a lot of, a lot of people with a wide variety of issues, but he actually has had to deliver medicines to their homes because—like literally he would personally take these medicines and drive and go to these peoples’ homes and give them the medicines because they have been, [00:22:04] they have been afraid to come to the clinic, and we’ve seen that happen a lot in the aftermath of the election too, where, I know I’m kind of going on a tangent, but they—
AS: You’re good. It’s relevant.
SZT: They, a lot of times, we—you know, we have, we start people on treatment, or start getting them into behavioral therapy, but then the problem is follow-up and having them come back and then, especially, it’s getting a little better now but there was a period of time where we would see a lot of gaps where people would just stop coming in, for months upon months and months and then a lot of it has to do with fear of being caught, of being, you know, I know that deals with more the undocumented part, but it was a huge issue back at that time. We saw a lot of the first hand consequences of that. But yeah, to the point where people have to go to their house to deliver the medicines because they were afraid, you know, to come to the clinic, so, yeah.
AS: Yeah, I read actually a New York Times article about that, because Bryan mentioned it to me during the interview—
SZT: Oh yeah.
AS: Where they interviewed Dr. Ashkin for it. Yeah, yeah. Okay, is—aside from just fear, [00:23:29] is having the time to come in or being able to get transportation ever an issue for your patients?
SZT: Yeah, yeah. Transportation is a huge issue, and our, we have, we have a pretty—I think our no show rate is about 30ish percentage, and transpor—there’s a lot of barriers, but transportation is one of them. A huge issue, because, you know, we’re, most of these families are single family homes, they have a breadwinner, they usually have one car, and they always have to find a way to get them to the clinic, and then if some—you know, it’s like—or a single mom, or—overall it’s a big issue, a lot of them can’t drive and, so that’s one of the reasons why our no show rate is so high is because they can’t get a way, find a way to get to the clinic. Some people come from really far away. A lot of actually our patients drive all the way from Virginia, or from Greensboro because we’re the closest safety net clinic in their area because it’s a little bit cheaper to go to our clinic than some of the other clinics in their area, so. There’s also just a lack overall of access to clinics in the rural communities overall, especially these types of FQHC clinics, especially nowadays where they’re closing a lot of these community health centers in the area, or at least defunding, not closing, but there’s a lot, there’s a huge problem with defunding these community health centers with this new administration, so—so yeah, people travel for like two hours, up to two hours, I think one of my patients went three, traveled three hours just to get here, so, you know. It’s like, when you find that out, that you know they’re, if they’re late, or they no show, you know, you kind of, it’s like they, they drove really far to get here to see us, so.
AS: That’s pretty crazy. So then, in terms of paying for the appointments, I know obviously the prices are reduced a lot and you have the sliding scale, right, based on income, [00:25:50] but is payment still an issue for some patients?
SZT: Payment is still an issue, especially—I think with the primary care stuff, especially if they don’t have insurance, I think it’s fine, but the problem really is getting specialty care or getting any sort of further diagnostic tests and things like that, and affording medicines and things. But I mean, coming to the visit and all those things, that’s, they usually, you know, will cover it, if you’re uninsured it’s like twenty-five dollars. And if they’re in a sliding scale I’m not really sure I think they don’t have to pay anything. I’m not, I’m not sure the details I’ll have to ask Tashia the exact cost of it, but, but yeah, I mean I think the biggest issue is really just getting full care, because they, you know, we have to be really careful about what labs we order, in case they get charged for it. You know, we have to be very careful about what tests to order. There are times we absolutely need this person to get, this person needs this, needs this CT scan, or needs this MRI scan, and we know they can’t afford it. So, those are always problems that we deal with on a regular basis, where Tashia ends up having to try to get them into either emergency Medicaid, or some sort of charity care, but then, but then there’s problems with trying to, understanding how to apply for that, and all of those problems, but. But yeah, cost is always an issue, we always have to keep that in mind when we’re ordering tests and when we’re putting them into referrals, because we know most of the time they won’t end up going because they—it’s not because they don’t want to, they know, or they can’t, it’s because they can’t, you know, they can’t afford it. They are afraid of, ( ) or they have to, it’s either, you know, they pay for their medicines or they pay for, they feed their family. Or it’s like, you know, they have have to make that choice, so, you know.
AS: Yeah. Okay, let’s see. What about, we talked about—a little bit—about education being an issue. [00:28:13] Is there also a lot of confusion and misinformation, I guess, about how the American healthcare system works? Do your patients have difficulty understanding that? I would imagine, it’s kind of confusing [laughter].
SZT: Yeah, I mean, I don’t get it, I don’t get it. I actually studied it, and I still don’t get it. So, I mean, if I don’t get it, I mean I’m pretty sure somebody with a third grade education who can’t speak English doesn’t get it. It’s so confusing, and I feel like it, it’s just, it keeps changing, and it definitely affects them because most, a lot of the, a lot of immigrants don’t realize—Latino immigrants—don’t realize that they are eligible for, for example Medicaid, or if they’re pregnant they, they are eligible for emergency Medicaid. Most people are uninsured because they don’t know how to, they don’t know how to navigate the system or they don’t have the resources, they don’t have somebody to kind of help them with it. So, they come to our clinic for the first time, even though you realize they, they are eligible, and then, but the paperwork to even get them—even I look at the paperwork and it’s so confusing, and then having to deal with it and trying to get it in Spanish and things like that, and a lot people, we get this all the time, where even some, some, some staff members are like why can’t, you know, if they’ve been in this country for this many years, how come they can’t speak English yet? But it’s, it’s a lot more complicated than that, when, you know, when you, when you only have a, a elementary school education, you know, and coming to this country and then learning a new language as an adult without even that primary education, it’s sometimes nearly impossible to try to learn a new language, so, it’s like—and then a lot of these, a lot of these people are coming from backgrounds where they had to deal with trauma, or they left their country because of trauma, or some other issue, and that has a huge effect, detrimental effect on your cognitive, learning and all of those abilities. And so, it’s not, it’s not that simple to be able to learn a new language and be able to navigate those systems and understand these things. So, I’m really impressed by a lot of, how a lot of the, a lot of these, our patients have been able to navigate the system, like being able to at least deal with kind of assimilate—or not assimilate that’s the wrong word—but being able to kind of adjust to a lot of the cultures here. But, yeah, I mean, it’s very confusing, and, so, coming from a whole different culture, a whole different background—I, I, I’m really impressed that they are able to figure it out because it’s really—with minimal assistance, because they, you know, overall have to, there’s a lot of other things I’m sure that they have to deal with, so. But yeah, that’s a huge barrier, just being able to know if you’re eligible or not, and being able to get all that paperwork filled out, so.
AS: Are there any, I know you mentioned the physical manifestations of mental health issues being pretty common, but [00:31:37] are there any issues that are particularly prevalent among the Latino populations that you serve?
SZT: Like different types of medical conditions or things like that?
AS: Yeah.
SZT: Yeah so, I would say it’s pretty common, pretty similar maybe to the, any sort of, like the general population, but there’s, I think, there’s definitely more disparities that you see in Latino populations, but there’s disproportionately higher numbers of obesity, diabetes, and that kind of comes with heart disease and blood pressure issues—hypertension, depression, and then, the common musculoskeletal things, like back pain, shoulder pains, and, you know, a lot of—depends on their occupation too, but people who work in, you know, farmworkers, they come in with a bunch of different musculoskeletal issues. But, but mainly the biggest things we still see are just diabetes, obesity, hypertension, like the rest of this population, but more, much more so in the Latino population because, because of their lack of access to healthy foods, and their diet in general, it’s a very carb-heavy diet, but yeah, we see that, we see that a lot, and so, yeah.
AS: Yeah.
SZT: Hepatitis ( )
AS: Gotcha. This is somewhat related to that, I’m kind of curious what you think. I was asked in a public health class one time, we were asked to write a paper, the question was do you choose your own health, and they asked us to kind of put a percentage on it, like [00:33:31] how much do you choose your own health, or how much is it affected by other things. You don’t have to necessarily put a percentage on it, but I’m kind of curious what you would think about that question.
SZT: Oh that’s a, yeah, choose your own health—that’s hard. I—there’s so much more to health than just, and obviously we say, you know, you can, we, I feel like our society blames so much on the individual, like you get to choose to be healthy, you get to kind of, you know, choose not to smoke and eat healthy and all of these things, but only if you have a certain amount of money, only if you have a certain amount of support and live in a certain amount of, certain area, it’s—if you’re gonna live in a rural community, where the nearest store is a liquor store or a, you know a ( ), nearest is a Dollar General and, you know, you’re making less than, way less than fifty percent of the federal poverty level, you, you obviously want to choose to be healthy, but you don’t have the resources to be healthy. So, there’s so much more than just—I don’t know how to put it into a percentage—but, you can choose to be healthy if you have the resources to do that. But if you, if you, you know, if you’re one of—I’m trying to think—one of my patients who’s like, who has—okay, I’m just thinking of one patient I just saw. She’s, she has seven children, she’s pregnant with her eighth, who has Down—now we found out that her, has Down Syndrome. And not all of these pregnancies were from the same dad, a lot of them were forced, wasn’t like she was trying to get pregnant, they were forced, like rape, basically. And no access to family planning, so it’s, she wasn’t able to—a lot of this happened in other, I think it was El Salvador, and, she’s by herself, she’s single now, because the dad was abusive, so now they’re out of the picture. Her other kids, literally one time I had a visit with her and six of her children. It was a well child visit that were not well child. Like every single one of their kids has issues because of the trauma that they’ve been through. I mean, I don’t know, and then, obviously she has health, she has a bunch of health issues. She has diabetes, and hypertension, and all this other stuff because she has to, she has to feed her, her family, and she has to, she can’t eat healthy because she doesn’t, it’s too expensive to eat healthy, and so they have to take fast food, or they have to eat, you know, spend whatever little money, food stamps she has, so, yeah. I mean, it’s an interesting question, but I think you can but you can’t it depends, to a certain extent depending on your situation. It’s like—it’s a tricky question, so, but it, it’s not just, and you can’t—it’s not individual, I think here, it’s a very population, socially construed answer, or topic, so. Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t have a good answer to that.
AS: No that was, that was a good answer. Are there any major barriers that we haven’t talked about thus far?
SZT: Let me think, let’s see. I think we talked about education, we talked about transportation, food, health, mental health access, uninsured. I think we’ve touched on, we’ve touched on most things. I’m trying to think if there’s anything else. I’ll think about it. I think those are, you’ve touched about all the major things.
AS: Cool. Okay, and then, [00:38:08] I know that you’re an immigrant yourself. Has that kind of, I don’t know, affected at all how you interact with immigrant populations or anything, or the way you think about immigrant populations?
SZT: That’s interesting, I’ve actually never thought of it that way. I think it definitely does though, because, you know, I mean, I’ve seen firsthand the things that my parents dealt with when they first came here. And, you know, we all have very similar—the reasons why, everybody, the immigrants that come to this country is for trying to better the future for the next generation. That’s the only reason why my parents came here, so I could have a better life. You know, they largely succeeded on that. They didn’t, they went through a lot of sacrificies, it wasn’t like we were rich when we came here. You know, they, they were pretty, we stayed in a small studio, little apartment when we, they kind of worked their way up, but it wasn’t, it took many many many years before they were able to, you know, get a house, for example. So it was, I mean, we did, we struggled a lot in the beginning. And I think I can relate, relate to some of the other immigrant families who are kind of going through the same thing and I think, I mean, and especially nowadays getting—it’s just, it’s a weird time. I don’t know. It’s, it’s interesting, we all, I think, my parents dealt with their own kind of discrimination, but, but I feel like it’s just escalated now, it’s a weird, it’s an interesting time for you to be doing this project, because there’s so much tension right now, especially with—I feel like me being Asian, it’s like we’re kind of left out of a lot of this racial discourse, but, that’s a whole other topic that I won’t get into, but.
AS: ( )
SZT: Oh really? Yeah, so, but yeah I mean yeah, I feel I can really relate to a lot of the immigrant story just because I’ve been through some of it myself. But, I mean, we’ll see what the future brings, but right now, I mean, I feel like it’s gotten better, but right now, at this time, it’s kind of in a weird moment where we can either way, but, yeah, we’ll see.
AS: Yeah. Did your parents know any English before they came here, or have they learned it here?
SZT: They were—they did, and didn’t. And so my dad, my dad came first. He, his English wasn’t good, they had to learn a little bit, you know, but obviously his conversational English was pretty terrible. It took, I think it took him, he said that he practiced, oh what was it he, he practiced in front of his mirror like fifty-something times, where can I get a taxi? That was like the first thing he had to ask somebody, but he, you know, he’s like, he was a, top of his class, valedictorian when he was in China, but he was getting Cs, almost failing his classes when he came here because he couldn’t understand, so, but then, you know, he, they—my parents both were well educated, so they were able to eventually learn English and being able to get, get there, but it took a while. And they still, there’s still little things, you know, when you learn a new language in your twenties, it’s never gonna be perfect, you know, like if you learn it as you were a child. So, but yeah. They did, they were a little bit more fortunate, though ( ).
AS: Yeah, yeah. Okay, kind of a little bit of a different topic, [00:42:22] I think Bryan said when I was interviewing him that you had gone out with them before to the fields—
SZT: Oh yeah
AS: Yeah, could you tell me a little bit about that?
SZT: Yeah, yeah I’ve just, I’ve only gotten to go out with him once. We went to, we went to this one—we went to a couple families. One of them was, it was this—it was a migrant farmworkers who was, I forgot how, I think they were there just for a few months. Pretty modest, they lived in this, they all live in these little mobile homes. And, it was a great experience. Most of the time they just spent, we just spent kind of chatting with them about completely non-health related things and just kind of, they were just, we were just, you know, talking about their, I don’t know everyday, something, like they were making jokes and everything like that. But it was a great experience because you got to see how they lived, got to kind of see what kind of conditions they lived in. I think relatively speaking, I mean that’s a whole, a whole different topic too, but they have, there’s a lot, there’s been a lot of farmworkers that go through—I mean you know, there’s a lot of maltreatment in the history of that, where they’ve taken advantage of, where they don’t—they get pretty minimal payment for the amount of work they do. I think the different policies like that have changed a lot but, but yeah, I mean overall it’s like, they seem to have a pretty, I mean they all have a pretty modest living, but they, you know, they haven’t seen a doctor in many years, so I ended up trying to get them to come see us, but then it’s like being able to have them find a time to see us. They really, they usually, the only time they can come is on Thursday nights when they, you know, they can, they can, where they’re done with work. But, yeah, but I mean I really liked it, just to be able to kind of see how they’re living and kind of just chat with them, just see how they are. But, I mean it’s hard, because they’ll be in a, they’re away from their families for sometimes like a year at a time, but they’re all doing this just so they can bring money back to their family, so, it’s kind of cool to see that. They work extremely hard, so yeah, but, I mean, it’s a cool program, I think.
AS: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Sorry, I’m jumping all over the place a little bit here, the questions are just kind of popping into my head.
SZT: It’s okay.
[00:44:59] AS: Have there been any, I guess, immigrant stories that have been particularly difficult for you to kind of hear? Probably a lot, but I don’t know if anything sticks out.
SZT: Yeah, yeah. I think Melissa would be a great person to talk to about that, but I mean one time—well I had one, one lady come see me. She came to see me for an acute complaint, for something, I forget what it was, it was like, I don’t know, pain somewhere or was it, I don’t know, vaginal discharge, I don’t remember what it was, but it was one of those where I was running behind, per usual, was my, maybe like half way done, and there were patients waiting, and I was like oh this will be easy, I’m gonna get this done really quickly. And then, something didn’t feel right with her, I don’t know how, what it was, but just it was the first time I was meeting her but just something wasn’t right, and then, as soon as I was kind of done with her, I was about to, I wanted to just kind of get things done, but then, just noticing that there was, I don’t know, like there was something off. So I just kind of probed a little bit and asked her if there was something, you know, if there was anything else she wanted to talk about, what else is going on. And I, and usually, when I’m in a hurry I don’t ask that because I know I need to move along but with her, I don’t know. And then she just started bursting into tears. And then you’re like okay, now I’m screwed, like the rest of my day is done.
AS: Yeah, yeah.
SZT: And then basically she told me that they went to the—her and her family, her husband and her, their son, went to a beach in Myrtle Beach for vacation the past week. And then, her husband was basically just, their son was like five years old, and he peed on himself, so, accidentally peed on himself, so he was just changing his clothes on the beach. And then they said that when they were going back to the hotel there was cops there. And then apparently, they took, they basically took him in for questioning, said that somebody from the beach, or somebody reported that he was molesting this child or something like that. And, of course, there was a language barrier and blah blah blah, she was letting them know like no, this is his son, he was changing his pants. And, but somebody reported that they were, that whatever, and, and so, what ended up happening, they had to take him in for questioning with, go through his records, and they found out that he was undocumented, and then, now, he, basically they’ve detained him, and then were kind of in that process of getting him deported. All because somebody, somebody from the beach was, I mean, it was very very clear that he was his dad, and was doing that, but, I don’t know. And so, so she was really upset because she didn’t know what to do, and she was trying to, in the process of trying to get a lawyer, and trying to, but, you know, didn’t have the money to do that, it was just a mess. So, I don’t know, so that kind of stuck with me. Just like a nice little vacation and then having somebody say—accuse your husband of, of abusing your child, and then having, the next thing you know having him be under ICE detention and being deported, so, it’s like, I don’t know, it sucks.
AS: Yeah, yeah.
SZT: And she’s, and she’s afraid to do something about it because she’s also undocumented, so it’s like, a mess.
AS: Yeah, that’s, that’s pretty awful. Do you, you mentioned the time thing, having enough time to talk to the patients. [00:49:15] Do you feel like that’s an issue for you, not having enough time to be with each patient?
SZT: I mean, that’s, that’s a struggle. That’s a huge struggle in primary care because, you know, on average we get fifteen minutes for each patient and that’s literally impossible to get through any really, true visit, unless they’re, you know, they’re coming in with a cold, you can deal with that. But most people, most people don’t, don’t come in with just one complaint, especially, especially, and even if they’re Spanish-speaking sometimes it takes a little bit longer, you know, mostly just because there’s sometimes words that if I don’t understand I have to re ask them and things like that, but yeah. Or if they’re traveling so far and then they get here and, you know, you want to get all their complaints because you now they’re not gonna come back, and then you realize a lot of these patients don’t, aren’t able to, like having a visit to come is a big deal for them because of the, of a lot of the barriers that we already have talked about. So, you want to try to get, address all of their issues, but time is always, it’s always an issue. And I feel like, it doesn’t ever feel, you know, like you’re able to get everything done. You can’t, you can’t get anything done in fifteen/twenty minutes, I mean yeah, so. I mean the other day I had a twenty minute visit for a new patient who was in her forties. She was Latina too, and she hasn’t seen a doctor for twenty years. So, you’re like, great. And then her sugars were so high that you couldn’t read it on the, on the glucometer. She’s like, her sister brought her in and her sister tells me that she, she stopped speaking fifteen years ago, so this patient’s mute, so she can’t talk. And so you have no idea what happened, she can’t, she, yeah I don’t know, she just stopped talking, she just suddenly stopped talking. So you have no idea, and literally this was the visit. Like this [laughter], this patient just comes in and then, of course every single thing. Her blood pressure was messed up, her, everything was just, it was just a mess of a, a visit. That you can, twenty minutes for, fifteen/twenty minutes for trying to figure out all of those things and why she stopped talking. Later on, I found out it was trauma, actually, it was abuse by her uncle that we found out later on, with, through Melissa, but, with Melissa’s help. But this was after multiple visits, you know, so, but yeah, that is what we deal with, people that come in who haven’t been seen, so.
AS: Yeah. I think that is all the questions that I have, is there anything else that you want to add?
SZT: I don’t know—yeah, I mean, thanks for doing this project. [00:52:21] I think this is a very valuable, and I’m really happy that, that you guys are studying this, and that that will hopefully increasing some more exposure, understanding to the, to the, you know. I think, I just feel like there’d be so much more love and so much more relationships, or, I mean, communication between different types of people if we just had, if we were just exposed, or if—
AS: Yeah.
SZT: You know, people who, I guess, people who might have these types of biases, just kind of learn about their situation and then, yeah. I just think, we just, we would make a big difference, so.
AS: Yeah.
SZT: So I’m glad that you’re doing this project.
AS: Yeah, thank you so much for your time, for helping out.
SZT: Yeah, yeah. [00:53:17]
END OF INTERVIEW
TRANSCRIBED BY ANNA SILVER
12 APRIL 2018
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
Es: Citación
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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R-0909 -- Zhou-Talbert, Serena.
Description
An account of the resource
Dr. Serena Zhou-Talbert immigrated to the United States from China when she was three years old. She has MPH and MD degrees and currently works as a resident family medicine physician at the Prospect Hill Community Health Center, a Federally Qualified Health Center (FQHC) that serves a 60 percent Hispanic population. In this interview, she discusses the barriers to accessing healthcare that her patients face, telling stories of particular patients as examples. She also briefly discusses her own identity as an immigrant from China. This interview is part of a GLBL 382 project investigating barriers to accessing healthcare for immigrants in North Carolina. As part of this course, students also travel to Guanajuato, Mexico over Spring break. Anna Silver is also volunteering as an English language tutor with immigrants throughout the semester as part of a service-learning requirement to build relationships with immigrant communities.
Source
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
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2018-04-18
Publisher
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/27572">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
Format
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-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/448bc2d545f746e052fa289a2249b8f3.mp3
3f5a2b1582032211340792ad17e2178d
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/4a6ee52977af40422120bc88c1ef4e2f.pdf
4b089f7c77570c7acde44a53fd3a4398
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0899
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
2018-04-02
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Carrillo, Juan.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Professors
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Male
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
Los Angeles -- California -- United States
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Chapel Hill -- Orange County -- North Carolina
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Bruce, Danielle.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
The interviewee, Juan Carrillo, is a professor in the School of Education at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He was born to Mexican immigrants in Los Angeles, California. He grew up in Los Angeles, then moved to Phoenix, Arizona, then Austin, TX, and then finally to Chapel Hill, North Carolina. He received a PhD from the University of Texas at Austin. He studies the effect that American schools have on Mexican American students. The interview covers several different topics, from comparing Dual Language schools in the southwest to schools in Chapel Hill, to the history behind Dual Language schools, to the importance of maintaining one’s language and culture. Carrillo also discusses his life history and how it relates to Dual Language education.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Juan Carrillo by Danielle Bruce, 02 April 2018, R-0899, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/27569
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
Culture; Language and Communication; Identity; Education; Integration and Segregation
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Danielle Bruce: Alright, my name is Danielle Bruce. I am interviewing Juan Carrillo for an interview for Global 382, Latin American migrant perspectives. It is Monday, April 2, 2018 and I am in his office in Peabody Hall on the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill’s campus. Today we are going to be talking about Dual Language programs in Chapel Hill. So my first question for you is a little bit about you –
Juan Carrillo: Mm
DB: —What in your life history led you to having an interest in Dual Language?
JC: Thank you for the opportunity to be interviewed for this. What connections in my life history have gotten me interested in this…Well, couple of things, I would say. One is my personal background. Son of Mexican immigrants that were mainly Spanish speakers. Learning the Spanish language at home and then entering, I guess, public schools in Los Angeles, where the majority of the student population were bilingual students, but we didn’t have a robust bilingual program where I attended school, or a robust Dual Language program. Really what we had was kind of a more subtractive ESL type of program. Not all ESL programs are necessarily subtractive but the one I was part of was basically…I do remember that I was labelled in some way or another as being “gifted” because I was told that my mastery of the English language came quickly and I was told that I had no longer needed to speak Spanish in the public domain. In this specific case, in school. I was no longer going to get any kind of Spanish instruction very early on. I remember being celebrated for that.
DB: Mm
JC: Being told, wow, you’re so smart, you’re in the highest level English reading group and you get to go to that special class. Only until I got into, I guess, the research side of what happened did I realize what an unfortunate – in such a diverse city with such a rich, historical history around Mexican-Americans and Chicanos – what an unfortunate reality that I had gone through where I didn’t really get to center at an early age bilingualism as an asset. It was more of you got pulled into the dominant language within a narrative that the other side of you is no longer necessary beyond the conversations you have with your parents at home. That is where you need to keep it. It was kind of a violent thing. It was kind of a violent thing and it was kind of like a microcosm of all the things that happened later for me where my identity and all its complexity was often times – not all the time, but often times – not really centered or valued or promoted in any way. I had to do a lot of independent studies to really figure that out. The other end is when I ended up deciding to pursue my doctorate at the University of Texas at Austin, while my concentration was not language education at any level, I did take coursework in it. I was around many people who were doing work around language education. I took courses, I met people, I got involved in some projects and then, to this day I’m very aware of the tensions around language education. I guess the personal, the connections to research on Dual Language, the connections to the historical context of bilingual education for Mexican Americans, it’s something I’ve been linked to since I was in graduate school. It allowed me to have a window with Windex, I guess, to my original story. It allowed me to give a clear assessment of what happened to me and what happens to many other young people.
DB: So you specifically didn’t go to a Dual Language school?
JC: I didn’t get that chance.
DB: Were there schools in the area for –
JC: I think there were.
DB: Okay.
JC. Yeah, I think there were. I just attended the schools that were by my apartment complex.
DB: Okay
JC: My mother said wherever the rent is cheap you’re going to school. Down the block. None of the schools that I attended had any – I didn’t even know what bilingual, Dual Language education was.
DB: It is pretty new.
JC: I mean, yeah, I was a kid.
DB: Yeah.
JC. I was a kid and there was stuff near there but I was not given access to those spaces.
DB: Mm. You said you didn’t know much when you were a kid but what do you know now about Dual Language programs, both administrative and classroom levels and what do you think?
JC: What do I think? Well, the way I look at it now through my research lens and through my on the ground lens, my children attend Dual Language schools. I see it as a parent, I see it as an advocate/activist, I see the issues as a researcher. What I really look at when I think about Dual Language is one of the core issues around the neoliberal project to use Dual language education as a way to assert more privilege to the group that is already in power. In many spaces where Dual Language was rooted in the Civil Rights legacy, the issues of community gentrification and the gentrification of Dual Language programming has removed in some spaces Duals Language from its mission of not just being a language program but an identity program that develops pride, that develops a historical connection to the historical self and develops an ability to name the world and name in a critical way the role of Latinos and Chicanos in the Southwest. My experiences, because in the city of Austin for example, where I know a lot of people doing research and I’ve been connected to some projects. There is a lot of displacement of Latino communities into the periphery. While there are Dual Language programs, a lot of the voices that are heard the most tend to not be those families. They tend to be the people that are from dominant society. What happens oftentimes is that the programs take a direction that is not necessarily – not always, but oftentimes – not necessarily attuned to the ideas of the civil rights legacy of the communities that fought for it in the Southwest. It is that hope of what Dual Language can do that is exciting, not only academically but in terms of identity, that’s exciting. But there’s also a tension. I was recently in Arizona and Arizona does not allow kids, youth, to enter the Dual Language unless they pass an English assessment. A lot of the kids that are getting into these spaces are not the kids that Dual Language was kind of set up for.
DB: Right.
JC. I’ve heard, a couple of legislators are trying to pass a bill to change that, but just for what you know of Arizona, if you know anything…I’ve lived there. It has in its history, whether it’s recent or forever, has had all sorts of layers of settler colonialism where the natives are othered and policymaking has made sure that they’re othered and that they’re marginalized. Do I speak for all Arizonans? No. There’s a lot of wonderful people pushing back and doing the work of equity and justice and trying to make it “better” from this lens so this is what you believe. It’s heartbreaking, to see how that assessment exists but it’s also encouraging to see the pushback of all these people on the ground in that particular place. I’m very familiar more and more with the Arizona case, very familiar with the Austin case, the hip cool city where working class communities of black and brown people are no longer working class communities of black and brown people, yet there is a very progressive band so there is a Dual Language stuff going on, but yet who’s controlling it, who’s designing it? There’s all these interesting narratives at play in places like that. Mm.
DB: I’ve learned a lot about the Dual Language schools here in Chapel Hill recently doing these interviews with people.
JC: Mm.
DB: It’s not like you said it is in Arizona where they have to pass an English test first. Their parents just mark in the enrollment if they are a native English speaker or a native Spanish speaker and it’s a lottery program to get in. Why do you think that a place like Chapel Hill with a smaller Latino population is not as strict with what kids enter the Dual Language than in a place like Arizona?
JC: Well, there’s a lot of unfortunately unfortunate violent history on the border.
DB: Mm.
JC: There’s a lot of history of people being dispossessed of their belongings, when the Mexican American war happened, of their language, of their overall identity, of their power. It has a history of dispossession. It has a history of violence, it has a history of – not to be bleak, it’s not the only history – but there is the historical backdrop of how people happened to speak Spanish were not necessarily given access in an equitable way to what they felt was theirs. The story has continued up until this day of – in different ways – systemically and politically and policy wise. It’s not surprising to me. Here the population is newer.
DB: Yeah.
JC: Although I’ve seen somebody document Latino students in Carolina all the way to the early nineteen hundreds or late eighteen hundreds. Someone was just talking to me about that. There’s a project that’s about to be published on that. But overall, it’s not a traditional border context.
DB: Mm.
JC: The Mexican American war didn’t happen here.
DB: Right.
JC: Not to say that that’s the explanation for it or one of the only plausible possible explanations, but the history of space is very different for Carolina to that region of the country. Yeah.
DB: In comparison, you said you had an ESL program at your school, but comparing to ESL to Dual Language—
JC: Yeah.
DB: —research shows that Dual Language has been more successful and students have higher proficiency levels—
JC: Mm.
DB: —than going through an ESL program. Have you…I mean I know you don’t do research on it specifically but do you know anything about the comparison between ESL programs and Dual Language programs?
JC: Yeah. What I can speak to is, I know that one of the key components that has been argued for in some of the bilingual education research or Dual Language research is the role of a robust quality Dual Language program being able to have two things. One publication recently came out. One is addressing the cultural piece, like the cultural identity piece. The other one is addressing-this is I think super important- critical consciousness. When you have young people in an unequal society learning language within a context that is additive and affirmative, but not only just boutique multiculturalism type of an affirmative and additive, but also willing to talk about the uncomfortable and talk about the gray areas of what it means to be a Latino, for example, in US society and develop a critical consciousness for young people. I think those kind of elements can contribute to…it really connects well with the ethnic studies research, right?
DB: Mm.
JC: It really connects well with the idea that identity and agency are inseparable, right. If you promote positive self-concept, if you develop a young person’s historical self, if you “wake people up” into understanding the material realities of everyday life conditions for marginalized communities, all that can create a sense of empowerment possibly and can create also strategies for negotiating with the soul wounds that they’re going to experience by being who they are. Those elements, when incorporated into some Dual Language programs, I think are huge. Not to say that all Dual Language…some ESL programs, some ESL spaces may serve their role, too. I think that’s one key piece that I’ve seen that has helped people in Dual Language programs.
DB: So, what would you say is the difference between ESL and Dual Language?
JC: I don’t think, well, to me ESL-and I can’t speak in generalities- because they’re all different, space to space, school to school, classroom to classroom, teacher to teacher. It’s really hard to generalize –
DB: Mm.
JC: because I’ve seen ESL teachers in Durham who are amazing and who are able to created spaces for cultural affirmation and understanding the historical self, understanding how to critically engage content. I’ve seen Dual Language educators not do that. And vice versa. It’s really hard for me to cookie cutter wise—
DB: Right.
JC: —make a comparative assessment in that way. But I do know that a quality, robust Dual Language education program in a school that has good community input from parents who centers not only the language but the role of the culture and the identity, possibly critical consciousness…I think that that has a stronger weight in some ways. In my opinion. Which is something I didn’t get, right?
DB: Right.
JC: I just got a really cookie cutter ESL idea. And it’s kind of a deficit model, right. Often times, it’s not complex in its understanding of a community sometimes. Yeah.
DB: Cool. [long pause] Right. Students that English is not their first language, whether they’re native Spanish speakers, native Chinese speakers, whatever you have in the community, research and literature shows that Dual Language, the Dual Language program is better at helping them learn English than a traditional ESL program.
JC: Mm.
DB: Do you know much about how a Dual Language program would help students learn English more than a traditional ESL program would?
JC: What I do know is that those measurements, they don’t happen right away. It takes times. It takes time to actually reach that level of effectiveness for Dual Lanugage schools. I do know too that, from terms of the research I do, I think I just said it, that one of the reasons that’s possibly the case is because academic achievement and identity in so many ways are linked. If you have a good strong Dual Language program in El Paso, Texas or Austin, Texas or in Raleigh, North Carolina – wherever there’s a strong one, the intersections of identity and academic achievement. There’s a possible connection there. There’s some research to back that up, right. That’s kind of the lens I see it through.
DB: Do you think that a Dual Language program taught here should be taught differently than in Texas or Arizona or something depending on the community that the school is in?
JC: I think that’s there’s things you can learn from all spaces. Especially from people or spaces that have a long history of effective Dual Language programs. But I think you should always sin any kind of pedagogical reality, make it context specific too. Because whether it’s at the level of social class, migration, race, gender, whatever the intersectionality elements are, and whatever the population is in terms of your teaching force, there’s’ all these nuances of the space that I think require you to monitor and adjust to that as well. But there are also some basic core tenants that I’m sure folk here can learn
DB: Mm
JC: from other spaces. Yeah.
DB: Have you seen any research anywhere about…so students in an elementary level Dual Language school have higher proficiency levels than students in traditional monolingual schools but have you seen anything about their proficiency rising and climbing in middle school and high school? Do they still do better than the monolingual kids?
JC: Yeah. I’ve seen, I think I just saw a Stanford study. I could be wrong but I think I just saw a Stanford study that showed that by middle school you see the growth on the Dual Language side.
DB: Right
JC: Yeah, yeah. There’s some work out there but I think the one I recently saw was Stanford discussing that exact reality.
DB: Yeah.
JC: I’m pretty sure I’m right about that.
DB: Yeah, Dual Language is like, so new that…I was talking to a principal here and she said there’s just no resources available for Dual Langauge yet because it’s just not a program that’s really anywhere –
JC: Well it’s new here.
DB: It’s new here.
JC: It’s not new in other spaces.
DB: Okay, so where has it been around for a while?
JC: DC, Miami, Texas…California has been in and out based on issues it’s had with English only movements and policy. There’s been this – I would not agree with that. There’s been other spaces where there’s a legacy of advocacy because in the Southwest so much of it comes from the Chicano movement.
DB: Right.
JC: They had bilingual education in Crystal City in the 60s or 70s or whatever. So that’s not five hundred years before Christ but it’s a good run. It’s a good run. There are spaces that have been doing this for a while and I think North Carolina’s just an interesting place because a lot of the research and scholarship and ideas that come from places that have done the ground work sometimes comes this way and sometimes it’s not necessarily tapped into. It just depends on who’s doing the program design. There is a rich history in other spaces.
DB: Could you talk about that history a little bit? How the Dual Language program got started, maybe through the Chicano Movement?
JC: Yeah, in Crystal City, Gutierrez I believe was his last name, you know they were frustrated in south Texas because a lot of the Mexican American Chicanos out there, they were living in really kind of like colonial conditions where you would have majority Mexican community members and the power structure was not representative of them. That was frustrating. Secondly, there was no political power for the community that was the majority in a lot of these Mexican towns in South Texas. Secondly, kids were getting beat up for speaking the Spanish language. They still are being told in many places, you know go back to your country, Spanish is the language of the home don’t speak it in the school.
Back then, kids were getting hit or beat up for speaking the language and they had no political representation and their history and their culture, both their indigenous roots and this idea of not having to assimilate to a dominant notion of what it means to be an American was also at play and this idea of paternalism, this constant narrative around helping the poor savage other and having them become the dominant group and not having an actual negotiation. People began to tap into the folklore and the history and the culture and the precious knowledge of the community and their historical legacy and people, young people, older people started uniting and creating political parties like La Raza Unida Part and starting campaigns in the local communities where people decided to implement, in the case, what’s his name, Gutierrez, where he, he was part of a power structure that put in some bilingual education in those communities and I think that fervor and that desire to tap into the community knowledge and the community memory and the beautiful, what we call conocimientos, of our grandpas and our grandpas and that beautiful oral tradition that we have that isn’t valued sometimes in public schools. It was like an assertiveness around bringing it to the center and making it part of a conversation with very- not contradictory- but with very mixed results. It’s like with any struggle of a community that historically is marginalized one way or another, it’s an ongoing effort that there’s just nothing cul de sac about it, you never get to the cul de sac. It’s like the idea of the battle in motion for perpetuity. Those people, some of them are still alive, they started something, they started an energy. They started a commitment, they started an articulation of a political project about the beauty of what we are. That’s why I just got back from Mexico City and it just when I was there looking at pyramids as romantic as it may sound, or esoteric, it just reminded the Chicano Movement. We wanted to know why our teachers weren’t telling us nothing about this. We wanted to know how we could write our own ( ). That’s why I write. It’s not just because I want to get tenure but because I want to tell it through my lens.
DB: Right.
JC: I grew up going to school being told someone else’s story for the most part and there was, as good as it was incomplete. I was like you know what I’m going to take up that project and maybe it won’t have much of an impact but I’ll do what I can. I think that, when I think of language and Dual Language, I think it’s because it exists in the “real world” and it’s all the real world, there’s always going to be competing interests.
DB: Mm.
JC: about what Dual Language can be and what it should be. There’s always competing measures about what is effective and wants not effective. Personally, I think that the metrics around standardized testing to decide whether or not it’s effective, even that can be problematic.
DB: Yeah.
JC: We could reorganize the question and really begin to consider how do we redefine success for young people learning multiple languages within the context of their everyday realities. How do we make things, humanize thing enough, create a humanizing pedagogy around DL that is critical, that is community-centric, and that has multiple entry and exit points for young people to excel within the confines of both their everyday things that are beautiful but are also within the confines of the everyday things that are hurtful or hard or having to work til five in the morning or whatever. I think even the questions that we ask I think that’s part of the Chicano legacy .Even the questions we ask should be bounded within the idea that there often coming from a particular narrative that favors the particular community. Not until we decide to debunk those things or re-conceptualize or reimagine, then not until we do that do we really get an understanding of Dual Language, in this case, since that’s the topic. Dual Language or language education is really truly being not just about achievement because of a standardized test score but being emancipatory and being something that helps people not only get good careers or get into Carolina but to have such a strong strong sense of who they are, why they’re here, and what their mission is in life beyond being part of a program that gets them to excel in two languages. Right?
DB: Right.
JC: There’s so much literature and scholarship that’s coming out that’s debunking the idea of two languages—
DB: Really?
JC: —and translanguaging and the hybridity of language and you’re born and then you’re a child and you’re playing with different languages at an early age, are you really an English Language Learner or are you already bilingual or multilingual. You might be all sorts of –lingual from a very early age.
DB: Right.
JC: But the current metrics, they’re bounded by bureaucracies and by certain norms and standards that fulfill a particular idea about language mastery and not only language mastery but also what counts as a quality program. So I think it’s kind of messy. I think it’s kind of messy but I support it, but I support it. I support the journey to create effective Dual Language programs and I support the idea being involved in them and trying to make them better in communities. My children attend them, I didn’t have a chance to attend them. I’m a big advocate of them and it’s always…it’s always something that’s near me because of family, because of personal, my own individual journey and connection, and because a lot of the people that I work with, that’s the area that they do research on. I’m actually writing an article about some of this that we’re talking about and what I’m trying to coin is what it means to be an English Language Learner that…what it means to design a Dual Language program where we provide opportunities for the just “learner” to understand how he or she is being framed and to understand how to resist possibilities of deficit narratives within their experience, like how you do that. How do you design a curriculum that does that or how do you conceptually encourage that kind of identity at a young age for a young person that is going to start the project of being called an ELL because it can have devastating consequences. I think my sister was in an ESL program in the back back back back back back back building for years and she hated it. She said it was very ineffective and not very additive for her. So yeah.
DB: Okay. I’ll ask one final question. In a perfect world, Dual Language would be about maintaining culture for native Spanish speakers it would be about maintaining your language and through your language your culture. So could you just speak a little bit…your perspective on the importance of maintaining your language and your culture in America?
JC: Yeah, well for me personally, that’s a great question, [long pause] I think I mentioned in our class that not until I got into my – well, there were cases earlier but I would say for the most part - not until I went to a student union at Arizona State University and decided to not graduate on time because I didn’t know anything about myself. I stopped my graduation clock and I was really frustrated and that’s why I transferred to like eight universities. Some of them were considered top five and I thought they were weak universities and I kept telling myself why do they come across to me as weak? It’s probably my fault, not getting into the right program, but maybe not. I thought, well the problem I’m having with these universities is that I don’t know anything about myself. So here I am at Arizona State, and I thought I’m not going graduate with a degree without knowing who I am. As the story unfolds, I found a class about the history of Chicanos or something and I took it. In that class, it just changed…it’s almost like the thoughts I had in the back of my mind were finally legitimized. There was a bunch of people that I’ve never met who believed the things that I believed in, who said things that I had thought about but no one had ever brought them up in a very public, formal way. I thought, wow, so I was not crazy. These things that I had in the back of my mind were real and there’s a group of people that agree with this and they’re writing about it and they exist in the world.
When I found that scholarship and that literature and that music and the theories and that community, my massive thirst for knowledge got accelerated [made an upward motion with his hand and a noise imitating ascension]. Reading twenty books every three days, it was like [same noise, repeated three times], it was exaggerated because I realized that so much of my life was about – based on educators that I had – not all was about escaping away from myself to become like them. Here was a whole world that was saying you don’t need to escape yourself, you are great, you are beautiful, you are knowledgeable, your community matters, and all this. I think that beauty and I think that link that I had to seeing the mirror of what my history tells me was game-changing and it was heartbreaking at first because it took so darn long. I was like, wow, why’d it take so long. At the same time I think it was something that I shared when I became a high school teacher. I made sure that, I tried to use that approach of encouraging not just that content mastery but encouraging that positive identity construction in equity or in academic instruction so that those two worlds would merge in a way that was not shallow and was not hollow because the pain of the winner can be just as bad as the pain of the one that doesn’t have success.
That’s something that I write about, the pain of the winner, but the scholarship or research that I do because sometimes you’re acknowledging the hollowness and the process and you’re trying to find ways to get your intent, let’s reconnect to the past, because you realize that it had things that you maybe could have just stayed with and didn’t’ have to necessarily take on the journey you took on. Or if you did take the journey and there’s beautiful things about it you want to find out ways that you can stay connected to whatever that was. You feel like a sense of exile constantly or a sense of trespassing or a sense of refugee status, you’re kind of playing with those thoughts and those emotions. But I think they’re good emotions because it creates a process of humility and a process of reflexivity and vulnerability. It allows, I think, for people to understand, how to not become [long pause] adapters to the cog in the overall wheel in ways that perpetuate inequalities. Remembering helps dismember the present constantly. Remembering, dismembering, remembering, dismembering. Yeah, so, I don’t know, for me it’s always been about that and I’m always around my community whether it’s at the work level or at the where I decide to live level or whether it’s visiting Mexico constantly. I’m always immersed because I’m not running away. I’m running in as much as possible. It keeps me grounded and it keeps me hopeful and it keeps me nuanced about what I think I can do to contribute. It keeps giving me info. Yeah. I use it all the time. Makes me feel whole.
DB: Awesome. Well, thank you, thank you so much for doing this interview for me.
JC: Yeah. You’re welcome. No, this was awesome.
END OF RECORDING
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Profesores
Es: Género de entrevistado
Hombre
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
El entrevistado, Juan Carrillo, es un profesor en la Escuela de Educación a la Universidad de Carolina del Norte a Chapel Hill. Nací a migrantes de México en Los Ángeles, California. Creció en Los Ángeles, después se movió a Phoenix, Arizona, después Austin, TX, y finalmente a Chapel Hill, Carolina del Norte. Recibió un PhD de la universidad de Texas a Austin. Estudia el efecto de las escuelas estadounidenses en los estudiantes mexicano-americanos. La entrevista cubre varios temas diferentes, como una comparación de las programas de Lenguaje Dual en las escuelas en el suroeste y las escuelas estadounidenses, como la historia debajo de las escuelas de Lenguaje Dual, como la importancia para mantener su lenguaje y cultura. Carrillo también discute su historia de vida y como su vida se relaciona a educación de Lenguaje Dual.
Es: Temas
Cultura; Lenguaje y comunicación; Identidad; Educación; Integración y segregación
Es: Transcripción
Danielle Bruce: Alright, my name is Danielle Bruce. I am interviewing Juan Carrillo for an interview for Global 382, Latin American migrant perspectives. It is Monday, April 2, 2018 and I am in his office in Peabody Hall on the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill’s campus. Today we are going to be talking about Dual Language programs in Chapel Hill. So my first question for you is a little bit about you –
Juan Carrillo: Mm
DB: —What in your life history led you to having an interest in Dual Language?
JC: Thank you for the opportunity to be interviewed for this. What connections in my life history have gotten me interested in this…Well, couple of things, I would say. One is my personal background. Son of Mexican immigrants that were mainly Spanish speakers. Learning the Spanish language at home and then entering, I guess, public schools in Los Angeles, where the majority of the student population were bilingual students, but we didn’t have a robust bilingual program where I attended school, or a robust Dual Language program. Really what we had was kind of a more subtractive ESL type of program. Not all ESL programs are necessarily subtractive but the one I was part of was basically…I do remember that I was labelled in some way or another as being “gifted” because I was told that my mastery of the English language came quickly and I was told that I had no longer needed to speak Spanish in the public domain. In this specific case, in school. I was no longer going to get any kind of Spanish instruction very early on. I remember being celebrated for that.
DB: Mm
JC: Being told, wow, you’re so smart, you’re in the highest level English reading group and you get to go to that special class. Only until I got into, I guess, the research side of what happened did I realize what an unfortunate – in such a diverse city with such a rich, historical history around Mexican-Americans and Chicanos – what an unfortunate reality that I had gone through where I didn’t really get to center at an early age bilingualism as an asset. It was more of you got pulled into the dominant language within a narrative that the other side of you is no longer necessary beyond the conversations you have with your parents at home. That is where you need to keep it. It was kind of a violent thing. It was kind of a violent thing and it was kind of like a microcosm of all the things that happened later for me where my identity and all its complexity was often times – not all the time, but often times – not really centered or valued or promoted in any way. I had to do a lot of independent studies to really figure that out. The other end is when I ended up deciding to pursue my doctorate at the University of Texas at Austin, while my concentration was not language education at any level, I did take coursework in it. I was around many people who were doing work around language education. I took courses, I met people, I got involved in some projects and then, to this day I’m very aware of the tensions around language education. I guess the personal, the connections to research on Dual Language, the connections to the historical context of bilingual education for Mexican Americans, it’s something I’ve been linked to since I was in graduate school. It allowed me to have a window with Windex, I guess, to my original story. It allowed me to give a clear assessment of what happened to me and what happens to many other young people.
DB: So you specifically didn’t go to a Dual Language school?
JC: I didn’t get that chance.
DB: Were there schools in the area for –
JC: I think there were.
DB: Okay.
JC. Yeah, I think there were. I just attended the schools that were by my apartment complex.
DB: Okay
JC: My mother said wherever the rent is cheap you’re going to school. Down the block. None of the schools that I attended had any – I didn’t even know what bilingual, Dual Language education was.
DB: It is pretty new.
JC: I mean, yeah, I was a kid.
DB: Yeah.
JC. I was a kid and there was stuff near there but I was not given access to those spaces.
DB: Mm. You said you didn’t know much when you were a kid but what do you know now about Dual Language programs, both administrative and classroom levels and what do you think?
JC: What do I think? Well, the way I look at it now through my research lens and through my on the ground lens, my children attend Dual Language schools. I see it as a parent, I see it as an advocate/activist, I see the issues as a researcher. What I really look at when I think about Dual Language is one of the core issues around the neoliberal project to use Dual language education as a way to assert more privilege to the group that is already in power. In many spaces where Dual Language was rooted in the Civil Rights legacy, the issues of community gentrification and the gentrification of Dual Language programming has removed in some spaces Duals Language from its mission of not just being a language program but an identity program that develops pride, that develops a historical connection to the historical self and develops an ability to name the world and name in a critical way the role of Latinos and Chicanos in the Southwest. My experiences, because in the city of Austin for example, where I know a lot of people doing research and I’ve been connected to some projects. There is a lot of displacement of Latino communities into the periphery. While there are Dual Language programs, a lot of the voices that are heard the most tend to not be those families. They tend to be the people that are from dominant society. What happens oftentimes is that the programs take a direction that is not necessarily – not always, but oftentimes – not necessarily attuned to the ideas of the civil rights legacy of the communities that fought for it in the Southwest. It is that hope of what Dual Language can do that is exciting, not only academically but in terms of identity, that’s exciting. But there’s also a tension. I was recently in Arizona and Arizona does not allow kids, youth, to enter the Dual Language unless they pass an English assessment. A lot of the kids that are getting into these spaces are not the kids that Dual Language was kind of set up for.
DB: Right.
JC. I’ve heard, a couple of legislators are trying to pass a bill to change that, but just for what you know of Arizona, if you know anything…I’ve lived there. It has in its history, whether it’s recent or forever, has had all sorts of layers of settler colonialism where the natives are othered and policymaking has made sure that they’re othered and that they’re marginalized. Do I speak for all Arizonans? No. There’s a lot of wonderful people pushing back and doing the work of equity and justice and trying to make it “better” from this lens so this is what you believe. It’s heartbreaking, to see how that assessment exists but it’s also encouraging to see the pushback of all these people on the ground in that particular place. I’m very familiar more and more with the Arizona case, very familiar with the Austin case, the hip cool city where working class communities of black and brown people are no longer working class communities of black and brown people, yet there is a very progressive band so there is a Dual Language stuff going on, but yet who’s controlling it, who’s designing it? There’s all these interesting narratives at play in places like that. Mm.
DB: I’ve learned a lot about the Dual Language schools here in Chapel Hill recently doing these interviews with people.
JC: Mm.
DB: It’s not like you said it is in Arizona where they have to pass an English test first. Their parents just mark in the enrollment if they are a native English speaker or a native Spanish speaker and it’s a lottery program to get in. Why do you think that a place like Chapel Hill with a smaller Latino population is not as strict with what kids enter the Dual Language than in a place like Arizona?
JC: Well, there’s a lot of unfortunately unfortunate violent history on the border.
DB: Mm.
JC: There’s a lot of history of people being dispossessed of their belongings, when the Mexican American war happened, of their language, of their overall identity, of their power. It has a history of dispossession. It has a history of violence, it has a history of – not to be bleak, it’s not the only history – but there is the historical backdrop of how people happened to speak Spanish were not necessarily given access in an equitable way to what they felt was theirs. The story has continued up until this day of – in different ways – systemically and politically and policy wise. It’s not surprising to me. Here the population is newer.
DB: Yeah.
JC: Although I’ve seen somebody document Latino students in Carolina all the way to the early nineteen hundreds or late eighteen hundreds. Someone was just talking to me about that. There’s a project that’s about to be published on that. But overall, it’s not a traditional border context.
DB: Mm.
JC: The Mexican American war didn’t happen here.
DB: Right.
JC: Not to say that that’s the explanation for it or one of the only plausible possible explanations, but the history of space is very different for Carolina to that region of the country. Yeah.
DB: In comparison, you said you had an ESL program at your school, but comparing to ESL to Dual Language—
JC: Yeah.
DB: —research shows that Dual Language has been more successful and students have higher proficiency levels—
JC: Mm.
DB: —than going through an ESL program. Have you…I mean I know you don’t do research on it specifically but do you know anything about the comparison between ESL programs and Dual Language programs?
JC: Yeah. What I can speak to is, I know that one of the key components that has been argued for in some of the bilingual education research or Dual Language research is the role of a robust quality Dual Language program being able to have two things. One publication recently came out. One is addressing the cultural piece, like the cultural identity piece. The other one is addressing-this is I think super important- critical consciousness. When you have young people in an unequal society learning language within a context that is additive and affirmative, but not only just boutique multiculturalism type of an affirmative and additive, but also willing to talk about the uncomfortable and talk about the gray areas of what it means to be a Latino, for example, in US society and develop a critical consciousness for young people. I think those kind of elements can contribute to…it really connects well with the ethnic studies research, right?
DB: Mm.
JC: It really connects well with the idea that identity and agency are inseparable, right. If you promote positive self-concept, if you develop a young person’s historical self, if you “wake people up” into understanding the material realities of everyday life conditions for marginalized communities, all that can create a sense of empowerment possibly and can create also strategies for negotiating with the soul wounds that they’re going to experience by being who they are. Those elements, when incorporated into some Dual Language programs, I think are huge. Not to say that all Dual Language…some ESL programs, some ESL spaces may serve their role, too. I think that’s one key piece that I’ve seen that has helped people in Dual Language programs.
DB: So, what would you say is the difference between ESL and Dual Language?
JC: I don’t think, well, to me ESL-and I can’t speak in generalities- because they’re all different, space to space, school to school, classroom to classroom, teacher to teacher. It’s really hard to generalize –
DB: Mm.
JC: because I’ve seen ESL teachers in Durham who are amazing and who are able to created spaces for cultural affirmation and understanding the historical self, understanding how to critically engage content. I’ve seen Dual Language educators not do that. And vice versa. It’s really hard for me to cookie cutter wise—
DB: Right.
JC: —make a comparative assessment in that way. But I do know that a quality, robust Dual Language education program in a school that has good community input from parents who centers not only the language but the role of the culture and the identity, possibly critical consciousness…I think that that has a stronger weight in some ways. In my opinion. Which is something I didn’t get, right?
DB: Right.
JC: I just got a really cookie cutter ESL idea. And it’s kind of a deficit model, right. Often times, it’s not complex in its understanding of a community sometimes. Yeah.
DB: Cool. [long pause] Right. Students that English is not their first language, whether they’re native Spanish speakers, native Chinese speakers, whatever you have in the community, research and literature shows that Dual Language, the Dual Language program is better at helping them learn English than a traditional ESL program.
JC: Mm.
DB: Do you know much about how a Dual Language program would help students learn English more than a traditional ESL program would?
JC: What I do know is that those measurements, they don’t happen right away. It takes times. It takes time to actually reach that level of effectiveness for Dual Lanugage schools. I do know too that, from terms of the research I do, I think I just said it, that one of the reasons that’s possibly the case is because academic achievement and identity in so many ways are linked. If you have a good strong Dual Language program in El Paso, Texas or Austin, Texas or in Raleigh, North Carolina – wherever there’s a strong one, the intersections of identity and academic achievement. There’s a possible connection there. There’s some research to back that up, right. That’s kind of the lens I see it through.
DB: Do you think that a Dual Language program taught here should be taught differently than in Texas or Arizona or something depending on the community that the school is in?
JC: I think that’s there’s things you can learn from all spaces. Especially from people or spaces that have a long history of effective Dual Language programs. But I think you should always sin any kind of pedagogical reality, make it context specific too. Because whether it’s at the level of social class, migration, race, gender, whatever the intersectionality elements are, and whatever the population is in terms of your teaching force, there’s’ all these nuances of the space that I think require you to monitor and adjust to that as well. But there are also some basic core tenants that I’m sure folk here can learn
DB: Mm
JC: from other spaces. Yeah.
DB: Have you seen any research anywhere about…so students in an elementary level Dual Language school have higher proficiency levels than students in traditional monolingual schools but have you seen anything about their proficiency rising and climbing in middle school and high school? Do they still do better than the monolingual kids?
JC: Yeah. I’ve seen, I think I just saw a Stanford study. I could be wrong but I think I just saw a Stanford study that showed that by middle school you see the growth on the Dual Language side.
DB: Right
JC: Yeah, yeah. There’s some work out there but I think the one I recently saw was Stanford discussing that exact reality.
DB: Yeah.
JC: I’m pretty sure I’m right about that.
DB: Yeah, Dual Language is like, so new that…I was talking to a principal here and she said there’s just no resources available for Dual Langauge yet because it’s just not a program that’s really anywhere –
JC: Well it’s new here.
DB: It’s new here.
JC: It’s not new in other spaces.
DB: Okay, so where has it been around for a while?
JC: DC, Miami, Texas…California has been in and out based on issues it’s had with English only movements and policy. There’s been this – I would not agree with that. There’s been other spaces where there’s a legacy of advocacy because in the Southwest so much of it comes from the Chicano movement.
DB: Right.
JC: They had bilingual education in Crystal City in the 60s or 70s or whatever. So that’s not five hundred years before Christ but it’s a good run. It’s a good run. There are spaces that have been doing this for a while and I think North Carolina’s just an interesting place because a lot of the research and scholarship and ideas that come from places that have done the ground work sometimes comes this way and sometimes it’s not necessarily tapped into. It just depends on who’s doing the program design. There is a rich history in other spaces.
DB: Could you talk about that history a little bit? How the Dual Language program got started, maybe through the Chicano Movement?
JC: Yeah, in Crystal City, Gutierrez I believe was his last name, you know they were frustrated in south Texas because a lot of the Mexican American Chicanos out there, they were living in really kind of like colonial conditions where you would have majority Mexican community members and the power structure was not representative of them. That was frustrating. Secondly, there was no political power for the community that was the majority in a lot of these Mexican towns in South Texas. Secondly, kids were getting beat up for speaking the Spanish language. They still are being told in many places, you know go back to your country, Spanish is the language of the home don’t speak it in the school.
Back then, kids were getting hit or beat up for speaking the language and they had no political representation and their history and their culture, both their indigenous roots and this idea of not having to assimilate to a dominant notion of what it means to be an American was also at play and this idea of paternalism, this constant narrative around helping the poor savage other and having them become the dominant group and not having an actual negotiation. People began to tap into the folklore and the history and the culture and the precious knowledge of the community and their historical legacy and people, young people, older people started uniting and creating political parties like La Raza Unida Part and starting campaigns in the local communities where people decided to implement, in the case, what’s his name, Gutierrez, where he, he was part of a power structure that put in some bilingual education in those communities and I think that fervor and that desire to tap into the community knowledge and the community memory and the beautiful, what we call conocimientos, of our grandpas and our grandpas and that beautiful oral tradition that we have that isn’t valued sometimes in public schools. It was like an assertiveness around bringing it to the center and making it part of a conversation with very- not contradictory- but with very mixed results. It’s like with any struggle of a community that historically is marginalized one way or another, it’s an ongoing effort that there’s just nothing cul de sac about it, you never get to the cul de sac. It’s like the idea of the battle in motion for perpetuity. Those people, some of them are still alive, they started something, they started an energy. They started a commitment, they started an articulation of a political project about the beauty of what we are. That’s why I just got back from Mexico City and it just when I was there looking at pyramids as romantic as it may sound, or esoteric, it just reminded the Chicano Movement. We wanted to know why our teachers weren’t telling us nothing about this. We wanted to know how we could write our own ( ). That’s why I write. It’s not just because I want to get tenure but because I want to tell it through my lens.
DB: Right.
JC: I grew up going to school being told someone else’s story for the most part and there was, as good as it was incomplete. I was like you know what I’m going to take up that project and maybe it won’t have much of an impact but I’ll do what I can. I think that, when I think of language and Dual Language, I think it’s because it exists in the “real world” and it’s all the real world, there’s always going to be competing interests.
DB: Mm.
JC: about what Dual Language can be and what it should be. There’s always competing measures about what is effective and wants not effective. Personally, I think that the metrics around standardized testing to decide whether or not it’s effective, even that can be problematic.
DB: Yeah.
JC: We could reorganize the question and really begin to consider how do we redefine success for young people learning multiple languages within the context of their everyday realities. How do we make things, humanize thing enough, create a humanizing pedagogy around DL that is critical, that is community-centric, and that has multiple entry and exit points for young people to excel within the confines of both their everyday things that are beautiful but are also within the confines of the everyday things that are hurtful or hard or having to work til five in the morning or whatever. I think even the questions that we ask I think that’s part of the Chicano legacy .Even the questions we ask should be bounded within the idea that there often coming from a particular narrative that favors the particular community. Not until we decide to debunk those things or re-conceptualize or reimagine, then not until we do that do we really get an understanding of Dual Language, in this case, since that’s the topic. Dual Language or language education is really truly being not just about achievement because of a standardized test score but being emancipatory and being something that helps people not only get good careers or get into Carolina but to have such a strong strong sense of who they are, why they’re here, and what their mission is in life beyond being part of a program that gets them to excel in two languages. Right?
DB: Right.
JC: There’s so much literature and scholarship that’s coming out that’s debunking the idea of two languages—
DB: Really?
JC: —and translanguaging and the hybridity of language and you’re born and then you’re a child and you’re playing with different languages at an early age, are you really an English Language Learner or are you already bilingual or multilingual. You might be all sorts of –lingual from a very early age.
DB: Right.
JC: But the current metrics, they’re bounded by bureaucracies and by certain norms and standards that fulfill a particular idea about language mastery and not only language mastery but also what counts as a quality program. So I think it’s kind of messy. I think it’s kind of messy but I support it, but I support it. I support the journey to create effective Dual Language programs and I support the idea being involved in them and trying to make them better in communities. My children attend them, I didn’t have a chance to attend them. I’m a big advocate of them and it’s always…it’s always something that’s near me because of family, because of personal, my own individual journey and connection, and because a lot of the people that I work with, that’s the area that they do research on. I’m actually writing an article about some of this that we’re talking about and what I’m trying to coin is what it means to be an English Language Learner that…what it means to design a Dual Language program where we provide opportunities for the just “learner” to understand how he or she is being framed and to understand how to resist possibilities of deficit narratives within their experience, like how you do that. How do you design a curriculum that does that or how do you conceptually encourage that kind of identity at a young age for a young person that is going to start the project of being called an ELL because it can have devastating consequences. I think my sister was in an ESL program in the back back back back back back back building for years and she hated it. She said it was very ineffective and not very additive for her. So yeah.
DB: Okay. I’ll ask one final question. In a perfect world, Dual Language would be about maintaining culture for native Spanish speakers it would be about maintaining your language and through your language your culture. So could you just speak a little bit…your perspective on the importance of maintaining your language and your culture in America?
JC: Yeah, well for me personally, that’s a great question, [long pause] I think I mentioned in our class that not until I got into my – well, there were cases earlier but I would say for the most part - not until I went to a student union at Arizona State University and decided to not graduate on time because I didn’t know anything about myself. I stopped my graduation clock and I was really frustrated and that’s why I transferred to like eight universities. Some of them were considered top five and I thought they were weak universities and I kept telling myself why do they come across to me as weak? It’s probably my fault, not getting into the right program, but maybe not. I thought, well the problem I’m having with these universities is that I don’t know anything about myself. So here I am at Arizona State, and I thought I’m not going graduate with a degree without knowing who I am. As the story unfolds, I found a class about the history of Chicanos or something and I took it. In that class, it just changed…it’s almost like the thoughts I had in the back of my mind were finally legitimized. There was a bunch of people that I’ve never met who believed the things that I believed in, who said things that I had thought about but no one had ever brought them up in a very public, formal way. I thought, wow, so I was not crazy. These things that I had in the back of my mind were real and there’s a group of people that agree with this and they’re writing about it and they exist in the world.
When I found that scholarship and that literature and that music and the theories and that community, my massive thirst for knowledge got accelerated [made an upward motion with his hand and a noise imitating ascension]. Reading twenty books every three days, it was like [same noise, repeated three times], it was exaggerated because I realized that so much of my life was about – based on educators that I had – not all was about escaping away from myself to become like them. Here was a whole world that was saying you don’t need to escape yourself, you are great, you are beautiful, you are knowledgeable, your community matters, and all this. I think that beauty and I think that link that I had to seeing the mirror of what my history tells me was game-changing and it was heartbreaking at first because it took so darn long. I was like, wow, why’d it take so long. At the same time I think it was something that I shared when I became a high school teacher. I made sure that, I tried to use that approach of encouraging not just that content mastery but encouraging that positive identity construction in equity or in academic instruction so that those two worlds would merge in a way that was not shallow and was not hollow because the pain of the winner can be just as bad as the pain of the one that doesn’t have success.
That’s something that I write about, the pain of the winner, but the scholarship or research that I do because sometimes you’re acknowledging the hollowness and the process and you’re trying to find ways to get your intent, let’s reconnect to the past, because you realize that it had things that you maybe could have just stayed with and didn’t’ have to necessarily take on the journey you took on. Or if you did take the journey and there’s beautiful things about it you want to find out ways that you can stay connected to whatever that was. You feel like a sense of exile constantly or a sense of trespassing or a sense of refugee status, you’re kind of playing with those thoughts and those emotions. But I think they’re good emotions because it creates a process of humility and a process of reflexivity and vulnerability. It allows, I think, for people to understand, how to not become [long pause] adapters to the cog in the overall wheel in ways that perpetuate inequalities. Remembering helps dismember the present constantly. Remembering, dismembering, remembering, dismembering. Yeah, so, I don’t know, for me it’s always been about that and I’m always around my community whether it’s at the work level or at the where I decide to live level or whether it’s visiting Mexico constantly. I’m always immersed because I’m not running away. I’m running in as much as possible. It keeps me grounded and it keeps me hopeful and it keeps me nuanced about what I think I can do to contribute. It keeps giving me info. Yeah. I use it all the time. Makes me feel whole.
DB: Awesome. Well, thank you, thank you so much for doing this interview for me.
JC: Yeah. You’re welcome. No, this was awesome.
END OF RECORDING
Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
Es: Citación
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
R-0899 -- Carrillo, Juan.
Description
An account of the resource
The interviewee, Juan Carrillo, is a professor in the School of Education at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He was born to Mexican immigrants in Los Angeles, California. He grew up in Los Angeles, then moved to Phoenix, Arizona, then Austin, TX, and then finally to Chapel Hill, North Carolina. He received a PhD from the University of Texas at Austin. He studies the effect that American schools have on Mexican American students. The interview covers several different topics, from comparing Dual Language schools in the southwest to schools in Chapel Hill, to the history behind Dual Language schools, to the importance of maintaining one’s language and culture. Carrillo also discusses his life history and how it relates to Dual Language education.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
Rights
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No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-04-02
Format
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R0899_Audio.mp3
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/27569">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>
-
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/bf0759f5f68508a34c405207eb43f9c9.mp3
f8daf646642e7ad699caaf7e71dadf43
https://newroots.lib.unc.edu/files/original/abc3f14744b6d9544fe9c2f202f6a444.pdf
e956c0d9b1c863a45609a8f7e68f2bcc
SOHP Interview - Bilingual
Southern Oral History Program Interview with metadata in English and Spanish
Interview number
Número de entrevista
R-0906
En: Restrictions
Es: Restricciones
No restrictions. Open to research.
Date
Fecha
2018-04-09
Interviewee
Entrevistado/a
Lima, Isabella.
En: Interviewee Occupation
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Students
En: Interviewee Gender
Es: Género de entrevistado
Female
Interviewee Place of Origin
Lugar de origen del entrevistado
São Paulo -- São Paulo -- Brazil
Interviewee Places of Residence
Lugares de residencia del entrevistado
Siler City -- Chatham County -- North Carolina
Interviewer
Entrevistador/a
Graham, Alexandra.
En: Language of Interview
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
English
En: Abstract
Es: Abstracto en español
This interview was conducted by Alexandra Graham with interviewee Isabella Lima. Throughout the interview, Isabella talks about her experiences in ESL--English as a Second Language--classes in elementary school when she first arrived in North Carolina from São Paulo, Brazil. She explains the structure of her classes, how she felt about them, how she learned English, and who her main supporters were as she was learning her second language. She shares about how bilingualism has shaped her as well as how she believes ESL classes can be improved in the public-school system. The interview, lasting 43 minutes and 17 seconds, took place in a parked car outside of a taco truck in Carrboro, NC. The car was running and there were occasional outside sounds from cars driving by or other miscellaneous noises. The interview took place on March 28, 2018.
Alexandra is a senior at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill from Wilmington, North Carolina. She is a Hispanic Linguistics and Economics double major graduating in May 2018. After she graduates, she will be pursuing her Master of Arts in Teaching at UNC-Chapel Hill with a graduation date in 2019. Isabella is a senior at Jordan High School in Durham, North Carolina. She will be studying at a four-year university beginning in the Fall of 2018, but she has not yet decided which university she will choose. She wishes to pursue a career in criminal justice and she has hopes of becoming an FBI agent. The interviewer and interviewee have known each other for three years through a mentorship program at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill called N.C. Sli. N.C. Sli matches Latinx high school students in central North Carolina with college students at UNC. It also provides identity workshops and college preparatory classes.
En: Citation
Es: Citación
Interview with Isabella Lima by Alexandra Graham, 09 April 2018, R-0906, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Reference URL
URL de referencia
http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/27560
Repository
Repositorio
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
En: Themes
Es: Temas
K12 education; Higher Education; Language and Communication; Migratory Experience; Education
En: Transcript
Es: Transcripción
Alex: [00:04] Hi. I'm here with Isabella Lima. I just have a few questions for you. So where are you from originally? When did you move to the U.S., and where exactly?
Isabella: [00:17] So I was born in São Paulo, Brazil. I moved to the U.S. in 2008 and I was about eight years old, almost nine. We moved to Durham because we had family in the area, so we moved in and stayed with my aunt.
A: [00:40] And do you still live there now?
I: [00:41] Yes, well, now I live on the Durham-Chapel Hill border, so pretty close.
A: [00:47] And how old are you now?
I: [00:48] I am eighteen.
A: [00:50] So what grade are you in and what are your plans for next year if you know them?
I: [00:54] I'm a senior at Jordan High School, and I plan on going to college next year. I'm not sure which one yet at the moment. I'm waiting to hear from other places still, but yes.
A: [01:10] Ok. We can kind of dive in to some of the language aspects of this. What is your first language and do you consider yourself a native speaker or fluent in that language?
I: [01:19] Yes. So my first language is Portuguese, from Brazil, not Portugal. I do consider myself a fluent speaker because I can read, write, speak Portuguese pretty well. I have a little bit of difficulty because I moved when I was pretty young, but I still consider myself a native speaker.
A: [01:49] And do you consider yourself to be a native speaker of English? Or how would you categorize your fluency level?
I: [01:55] I think I'm pretty fluent with English. I do-- Sometimes I do better than my other peers. So I think I'm pretty fluent in English also. I have difficulty pronouncing certain words sometimes, but I think that that's normal with any people. So I think I'm pretty fluent.
A: [02:16] But you wouldn't consider yourself to be a native speaker?
I: [02:19] I don't think a native. But definitely fluent.
A: [02:24] So since you moved to the United States at a fairly young age, how do you think that your age impacted your ability to learn English or a second language in general.
I: [02:32] I think it definitely helped because the younger you are when you learn a language, the faster you learn and the better you learn it. I think that me being nine, I was able to learn it pretty quickly, but if I had moved here earlier I would probably know it better and I would have less trouble pronouncing certain words, or I would be able to hear certain changes-- between then and than, and those little differences.
A: [03:06] Interesting. So how did you learn English? What were the services available to you or the requirements that you had to fulfil, or things that you did on your own?
I: [03:20] I was like-- I started going to elementary school and they placed me in the ESL program and it was me and two other Hispanic girls. They were twins. And we would go out of class and go to ESL and the teacher would teach us basic things in the beginning, you know, like basic vocabulary words like "up," "down" and things like that. That went on for all of my third grade year and a little bit into fourth grade, but by the end of third grade I knew English pretty well already. And then at home, my mom and my cousins and stuff, they would read to me and I would read little children's books and stuff so I could practice my English and get better at it. My mom bought a bunch of little vocab books and stuff like that. And then I had my cousins who would practice English with me.
A: [04:24] So you think you learned most of your English outside of the ESL classroom?
I: [04:28] Yes, because then I also had-- There were also kids at school who would try and talk to me and I would try and talk back to them in the best way I could. So I think that my English was learned by people around me helping me and influencing me and stuff like that.
A: [04:48] Okay, cool. So how did you feel being forced to learn a new language or did you feel forced at all?
I: [04:54] I was-- I felt more motivated than forced. I hated the fact that I couldn't really talk to people around me when I was at school since I was around people who spoke English throughout most of my day. I really wanted to communicate with them, so I didn't feel forced very much, but more motivated to want to learn the language so that I could communicate with my peers and help my mom.
A: [05:33] That's a pretty good segue to my next question: how were your interactions with your English-speaking peers when you first started school in the United States?
I: [05:40] Right in the beginning, I had a tough time because I-- some people tried to be friends with me, but I didn't really understand what they said at all. So the beginning was tough because I didn't understand the customs and I didn't really understand what was happening and what people were saying, but the kids were very nice. They tried to reach out and stuff, but as I started to learn more English, I was better able to communicate with them and I learned the customs and everything that happens in elementary school. So as my third grade year went on, by the second half, I was better able. I had more friends and I was able to communicate with them and we would play at recess.
A: [06:34] Did you ever have any negative responses from other kids as far as your language barrier?
I: [06:43] None that I remember. I think it was just-- I think in the beginning I just felt very left out. But I think that was just because I didn't know how to interact with them and they already had their own little friend groups and stuff. And it was hard for me in the beginning to try and be friends with them when I couldn't really communicate.
A: [07:07] So you've-- I mean you already talked about a little bit how those interactions changed over time-- So how quickly did those interactions become more easy and in what ways?
I: [07:20] I think it was more towards-- So the end of my third grade year and then mostly during fourth and fifth grade. During-- By the end of third grade, I had a few friends that I played with and I could talk to them already and stuff, but it was mainly during fourth grade where I started making more friends and I started finding people that I fit in with and stuff. And then fourth grade was also the year that I was added to an AIG math class, so I was opened up to different people that I didn't have contact with before. So that was another way I made more friends and stuff.
A: [08:17] So at what point did you feel fully capable in your English speaking abilities and feel really comfortable around your peers?
I: [08:26] I think it was when-- in fourth grade. Third grade I was still-- I felt that I was still learning, especially during the first half of third grade, I was-- I didn't know any English at all. During the second half, I knew some, but I wasn't-- I didn't feel very comfortable. But then I had that summer after third grade year right before fourth grade, and then that was a time where I practiced more. I would help my mom with her house cleaning business that she had and sending emails to clients and stuff and speaking. So fourth grade I felt more comfortable with my English and talking to people.
A: [09:11] Pretty cool. That's really quick. Switching gears a little bit, how do you think that your native language Portuguese has shaped you?
I: [09:21] I think it definitely has had an effect on me, you know, just because of the-- Well, Portuguese has helped me a lot. I take French in high school and Portuguese has helped me learn different languages like French, and then it has also helped me with Spanish, which I can speak a little bit of. So it has definitely provided me with many benefits. And then I think that Portuguese-- I think that me being able to speak a different language just sets me apart in a way. And it makes me a little different than the other people, which I like.
A: [10:24] Do you think that could be the case with any other language, or do you think that Portuguese has any specific effects on you?
I: [10:36] I think it can be with any other language, but I think that what-- where that language is linked to-- like Portuguese is linked to Brazil, which has a big impact on me. So it has personal meaning to me, but if I spoke Chinese, that would set me apart too. So I think that speaking any other language sets you apart and makes you different from others, but just the connection that it has to a country or something, that has an impact on you.
A: [11:11] So can you talk a little bit more about how your bilingualism has shaped you, or what advantages that it has given you?
I: [11:19] I think it definitely has, like I said before, provided me with a chance-- It has made it easier for me to learn different languages, especially Romance languages. They're all very similar to each other. So I don't have such a difficulty in learning French as other students have, because some of the words are similar and things like that. So I have more experience with it and it's easier and it sticks with me. I think that's definitely a way that being bilingual has helped me and helped shape me. It also increased my interest in learning other languages since I already knew-- since I knew Portuguese and I learned English, it made me want to learn different languages, and the more languages I learn, the better I think I'm making myself, because I wanna be able to communicate with other people from different countries. I don't wanna be that person who only speaks one language and can't communicate with anyone else.
A: [12:46] So earlier you briefly mentioned using your new English skills to help your mom. Can you speak a little bit more about that and what that means?
I: [12:58] My mom, she also-- When we came here she also didn't know any English at all. And so she signed up to take classes at Durham Tech so she could learn some English, but that wasn't really enough because she learned some stuff fairly quickly and she learned the grammar portion, but speaking for her was and still is very hard. She doesn't feel very comfortable speaking English because she feels afraid that she's gonna say the wrong thing. So I have always been the person that has translated for her and spoken for her and written emails for her and everything. So when I was younger and she still had her house cleaning business, I would email the clients for her, I would go to meetings with new clients for her and translate everything that they said and what she said back. So it has always been a very strong relationship between the two of us. Translating has brought-- built that connection even stronger and stuff.
A: [14:18] So that's something that you've enjoyed doing?
I: [14:19] Yes. Not all the time. There are certain situations-- When she's-- It's hard to translate her emotions also, when she's really angry and I'm trying to translate, it's very hard, because I'm always smiling and sometimes I think it's funny. And so they look at her face, but then they hear what I'm saying and it doesn't match up. So sometimes it's not very [enjoyful], but it's something that I've always liked doing.
A: [14:54] Interesting. Thank you. So switching gears a little bit again, do you feel like you have lost any of your identity with your native language or culture when you began to learn English, or, on the other hand, do you feel like being bilingual and bicultural has given you a richer identity? Can you speak to both questions?
I: [15:12] I think that by learning English, I lost some of how-- I lost a little bit of how comfortable I felt speaking Portuguese, because I was suddenly surrounded all by English most of my day in school. And while it really helped me learn English and made my English better, I also lost some of my Portuguese. Which is okay because, I mean, at home I still speak Portuguese and I still speak Portuguese with my family, but I think that by learning another language, it took a little bit away from the language that I-- from my native language. And then I think that by being bilingual, it has just-- or you said given me a richer identity. Yeah I think it just has shaped me. Helped shape me for-- or it has shaped my interests in learning new languages and working with people who also need to have things translated and stuff.
A: [16:45] So are you still interested in studying Portuguese and fostering those language skills?
I: [16:51] Yes, so I want to learn-- So I want to continue learning Portuguese and become really, really fluent so that I'm not always asking, "how do you this," or "how do you say that?" But then I also want to learn other languages like Spanish and become fluent in French also.
A: [17:13] So how do you feel in your conversations that you have with other native speakers of Portuguese?
I: [17:19] When it's people that I'm pretty comfortable around with, like my family and stuff, I don't-- I mean, I love speaking Portuguese-- When I'm around people I'm more comfortable with, then I'm more comfortable speaking, especially if I mess up and stuff. But sometimes when-- Like if I go to Brazil, sometimes I get more nervous when I'm speaking because I don't wanna mess up, because I don't know, I just-- In a way I kind of feel a little bit ashamed if I mess up when I'm speaking Portuguese in Brazil, because that's my native language and I don't wanna be the person that goes, "oh, how do you say this," or "what is that word," or "what does that mean?" So when I'm in Brazil with some of my childhood friends or anything like that, I get a little bit more nervous when I'm speaking and I try to think of how I would say things sometimes.
A: [18:24] Interesting. Is that just with the content of your speech? Do you feel like your accent is pretty native?
I: [18:31] Yeah. I think for some words sometimes my English accent may come in a little bit because if I don't know a word in Portuguese I may use a similar word that I know in English and try to make it sound Portuguese-ish. But my-- I don't really have an accent when I speak Portuguese. Also my tone of voice completely changes.
A: [18:57] Mhm, it does.
I: [18:59] Completely changes.
A: [19:02] So moving back to the topic of ESL, English as a Second Language, could you tell me a little bit more about the structure of your ESL classes? I know you mentioned already that you went to a separate room to take the classes, but could you tell me a little bit more about that?
I: [19:18] Yeah, so in third grade they would take us out of-- I think it was whenever they did English, because I would stay in my regular class when they did math. But they would take us out whenever they learned English, and they would take us into a different room. And it was me and only two other girls. It was this really nice little old teacher who would have all these little flashcards and candy and stuff, and explain to us and teach us English. So my ESL class was very small, but other ESL classes, like the ESL classes they have at my high school, they're very large and it's many students. And I feel that those students are kind of separated from the rest of the school, which I don't think is very good, because then that prevents them from getting better at their English. Because if they're only surrounded by people who speak Spanish or, you know, maybe whatever language they speak, then they're not gonna be motivated to learn English. Which I think was a big factor for me, because I was only in ESL for a certain part of the day, and the rest I was thrown into a big classroom where everything they spoke was English and the only classroom I stayed in was math. So I think that being surrounded by others who speak English motivates you to want to learn English and communicate with others.
A: [21:06] So what else did you like or dislike about the structure of the ESL classes that you were in? What was helpful, what was unhelpful?
I: [21:16] I think I liked having a small class, because it felt more personal and I could learn better and stuff. I didn't like that whenever we took a standardized testing, I had to go to a different room with other ESL children. I didn't like that, because I didn't like being separated from my peers even though we took the same test. But I wish that-- I guess for some people it's helpful, but I never understood, because they never read anything out loud to me or anything like that, so I didn't understand why I had to go to a separate room. So I didn't like that part, being separated from my peers. But I liked the ESL classes. I think they're more helpful when they're small, because you can focus more attention on the students and make sure they're understanding everything that's going on.
A: [22:19] Was there ever any point where you felt thrust into a school setting and you didn't really know what was going on, or you felt like things weren't explained to you very well?
I: [22:31] First day of school. I had no idea what was going on. I sort of knew how to ask how to go to the bathroom, but I didn't really know. So the first day of school I had no idea what was going on. It took me a couple weeks to understand that snack time was a thing. We didn't have snack time in Brazil. I was the only kid who didn't bring snacks for the first two weeks of school, because I didn't know that was a thing. Cafeteria lunch was so gross, I didn't know it would be that bad. So it took awhile for me to start bringing my own food, and then I became the girl who brought home-cooked meals instead of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. So almost all of my third grade year was a very new experience for me and I was just very thrown into a environment that I was not familiar with at all. And it was really hard at first. I didn't like it in the beginning. I really wanted to go back, but my mom said no. But it got better as things went on. Oh, and also my ESL teacher tried to explain to me what a fire drill was, and I did not understand it and then those alarms went off and I had no idea what was going on. I think that all of my third grade year was just a very new experience where I was just thrown into a new environment and I was adapting to the changing situations.
A: [24:18] Who were the, kind of, key players in your third grade year? Trying to make sure that you knew what was going on and that you knew where you needed to be and what you were supposed to be doing. Who made you feel the most comfortable?
I: [24:29] I loved my ESL teacher. She was really nice and she was very helpful. My main third grade teacher, she was also very nice. I don't remember her name, but she was really, really nice. I remember what she looks like, though. And then there was a girl who tried to be my friend on the first day of school. She-- I don't remember her name, but she introduced herself. She was my first friend of my third grade year. She tried to be friends with me and it was really nice. And then definitely my mom and some of my family members who helped me with my English and reading.
A: [25:21] That's really nice. Did your ESL teacher speak any Portuguese?
I: [25:26] No. I don't even remember-- I think she knew some Spanish words, but I don't think she was fluent in Spanish at all. I think she mainly only spoke English. She was a very nice old white lady.
A: [25:43] So how does that work in an ESL classroom, with so many people coming from different language backgrounds and an ESL teacher that might not speak any of those languages? How do you communicate and what is that dynamic like?
I: [25:54] It's very hard. I guess, mainly it's just-- It would be more helpful if the teacher spoke, you know, either Spanish or, you know, some language that would help most of her students understand, because it's hard understanding everything in English. I still don't know why we would use a certain word here and not a certain word there. So it's very hard explaining everything in English when you don't know how to say anything in English. It would definitely be more helpful if the teacher spoke Spanish and they could explain, you know, why this happens or why this happens in Spanish instead of English where you're not gonna understand it very well. So it’s definitely hard, but I think in the end, it can be helpful, because then the students get used to learning English a little quicker because they have to understand what you're saying. And then they also use-- Well with me at least, they used a lot of pictures and-- Like when we were learning up and down, she used a chair, and she would put things above the chair and below the chair and things like that. So you know, imagery and doing little scenarios and stuff definitely helps.
A: [27:26] Do you think that kind of learning style for a language was more helpful for you to remember those things rather than having them just simply translated from Portuguese?
I: [27:36] Yes. I mean definitely having the English words translated into Portuguese was helpful. It still is today. But definitely having--seeing something being done or having a picture of it is more helpful-- is very helpful also. Because you know, you're not always gonna be able to translate a certain word into Portuguese. There's not always a perfect translation. So if you could see a picture of it or you could see it being done, that's definitely helpful for it to stick in your brain and for you to remember it.
A: [28:15] Interesting. So would you have changed anything about your ESL experience?
I: [28:22] I think I just wish that there would have been more kids in my ESL class. I liked it being very small, but then I also didn't feel like there were many people I could connect with in there since it was only two girls and they were twins and they spoke Spanish and I had a hard time communicating with them. So I think that maybe if there had been two more children, three more children in there, that would have made it a little better. But yeah.
A: [29:00] Do you think you would have had a much different experience if there had been maybe just one other kid who spoke Portuguese?
I: [29:08] Yeah, I think I would have-- I think if there was another kid who spoke Portuguese, I wouldn't have felt so excluded or left out. I think I would have been able to have that one friend who you could talk to, but I don't know. I don't think it would have affected my ability to learn English at all.
A: [29:37] Interesting, so you would have felt just as motivated?
I: [29:39] Yes, I think so. Because I would still have been surrounded by hundreds of other kids who spoke English.
A: [29:49] Interesting. So how do you feel, or how did you feel then and how do you feel now speaking one language at home and a different language at school and at work and in public situations?
I: [30:03] I like it. I mean, it's part of my norm. But sometimes I get mixed up if-- Sometimes I'm at school and I wanna say something in Portuguese. Or sometimes I'm at home and I have to say it in English, because I forgot how to say it in Portuguese. So I like it, but my brain can get a little crazy sometimes. But it's fun. I like being able to talk in a different language with my mom or my family members and not everyone can understand it. And I love when I go to stores and I hear other people speaking Portuguese, because I can pick it up instantly. I can hear it in people's accents when they speak English. And then whenever I hear it, I go, "Mom, they're Brazilian. They're speaking Portuguese."
A: [30:56] Can you tell the difference-- I mean, you probably-- Yes, the answer is yes-- between Brazilian Portuguese and Portugal Portuguese instantly?
I: [31:02] Yes. The accent, some of the vocabulary words they use-- We used to have friends who were from Portugal and sometimes I had a hard time understanding what they were saying, because their words would mean different things and their accent is very different than ours.
A: [31:20] So do you ever remember being monolingual? I know that was kind of a while ago, but--
I: [31:26] I just remember being-- When I still lived in Brazil, just speaking Portuguese all the time. And then when I was here, but then as soon as I came here, I started going to school. That was when I started learning English, but I definitely remember my time-- the years I spent in Brazil and Portuguese was the only thing I spoke.
A: [31:54] Does that feel really different to you?
I: [31:55] Yes. It feels weird, because, almost half of my life that I've lived until now, I have been speaking two languages. So it's weird to think that for the other half of my life, I only spoke one language, when now I speak two all of the time. So it's weird.
A: [32:24] Interesting. So do you have a language preference? Is there one you feel more comfortable in? And has that answer changed over time?
I: [32:32] Yes. So I used to feel a lot more comfortable in-- whenever I spoke Portuguese, but I think it's kind of-- I think it's a little bit more comfortable in English, just because I use it more often. So I think just because-- I think it's because I use it more often so I'm more comfortable speaking it, even though sometimes I'll get nervous, or I don't know how to pronounce things right, or my accent comes in a little bit, but I think I'm still more comfortable with English. With Portuguese, I'm still comfortable, but I have a harder time saying words sometimes than I do in English, just because I may not know it or I forgot it. But I'm still comfortable when I speak Portuguese.
A: [33:33] So if you're having a really deep conversation with a friend, you would rather it be in English than in Portuguese? Assuming that that person speaks both languages equally well.
I: [33:44] I think so. Because a lot of my cousins, they both speak Portuguese and English, and our dialogue is mostly in English. So I think I would rather have it be in English.
A: [33:57] What is that dynamic like with all of your bilingual family?
I: [34:01] It's funny, because I have to speak Portuguese with my mom and my dad and my sister and my aunt, but then I speak English with my cousins, with some of my cousins. With some of my other cousins, I only speak Portuguese. And then even the bilingual ones. And then my little cousins, I mostly speak English with them, because their English is better than their Portuguese. But then my aunt yells at us to speak Portuguese, so it's just a whole cycle of me speaking English and then getting yelled at for speaking English [34:44] speak Portuguese. But yeah, it's-- If you go to my house and my family is around, you'll hear Portuguese and English at the same time. And we'll speak a sentence that has Portuguese and English in the same sentence.
A: [35:04] Wrapping up, do you have any final thoughts on the ESL system in public schools? Maybe in North Carolina or really anywhere else? Can you draw from your own experience a little bit or maybe experiences that your friends have had?
I: [35:19] I think it definitely could be improved. Especially the one at Jordan High School where I go to school. I have a cousin who goes to-- who is in the ESL program at Jordan High School, and she's a sophomore. She was in it as a freshman and a sophomore, and her telling me, you know, of her experiences and me seeing other kids who are in ESL, I think it can definitely be improved. I think that they're too separated from the school environment. I mean, obviously you're gonna wanna sit with people, you know, who speak the same language so that you can communicate with them, but I think that their classes are too separated. I mean, obviously they're gonna go to ESL class so they can learn English, but then the other classes they go to, like math, it's ESL students. It's all ESL students. Regular English, all ESL students. Science, all ESL students. So I think that they could do a better job of integrating these ESL students into classes with regular students, because at the end, you're learning the same material. But if you're in a class with all ESL students and you have ten other kids in the class who speak Spanish, it's gonna be very hard to teach everyone the material when those kids are constantly distracted by their peers and stuff. So I think that the school could do a better job of integrating those ESL students into the school society and regular classes. And it could also raise awareness of all of the ESL students we have in the school. Jordan High School has over 2,000 students, and we have a lot of ESL students and refugees. So it could definitely raise awareness of the students that are in our school. And that can go for other schools, too. I'm not fully aware of how it is in other high schools and middle schools in North Carolina, but I think that integrating the ESL students more into the school society with regular classes and providing more information for the parents of how the school system works and registering for classes and everything like that.
A: [38:03] So would you say that the ESL classes at Jordan High School might be hidden on purpose, or is it just a lack of awareness kind of by accident, or lack of trying to get it out there?
I: [38:15] I think that it just has to do with-- Maybe initially whenever the ESL program at Jordan started, it might have been to keep them separated, and I don't think that if that was the goal-- I don't think it's the goal now, but we haven't done anything to change that. I think that now it's just an accidental thing where it keeps them separated, but it's also-- There's no one doing anything to try and change that situation. And then I also think there should be tutoring sessions available for ESL students so that they can get their English better.
A: [39:13] Going back to your cousin who's in ESL currently, does she-- Are there any other students in her-- female?
I: [39:22] Mhm.
A: [39:23} Okay. Are there any other students in her ESL classes that speak Portuguese, or is she the only Portuguese speaker?
I: [39:28] So there was one other girl who spoke Portuguese who had moved here from Brazil last year also, but that girl is not currently in ESL anymore, because her mom went into the school and-- or her stepmom went into the school and basically said a bunch of stuff and got her out of ESL, because they thought that she was okay going into regular classes and regular English and classes that she wanted to take, and not having to take ESL one more time.
A: [40:06] So do you think your cousin-- I know you can't really speak on her behalf, but has she mentioned anything about how she feels about being the only Portuguese speaker in high school versus elementary school as you were?
I: [40:23] I think that in the-- So she had the-- sort of the same feeling that I had whenever I talked to her. She told me that she felt very motivated to learn English so she could communicate with people around her, so we had sort of the same motivation. I think that she didn't feel, I think, as left out as I did, because she was better able to talk Spanish to the other students around her. So she was able to make some friends who did speak Spanish, so she had more friends to talk to. And then she had learned a little bit of English the summer before school started with us, and she had gotten-- Her, I think her aunt got a tutor for her so she could learn a little bit of English before school started so she could communicate a little bit. But yeah.
A: [41:32] That's cool. So would you say that in ESL, she has also learned Spanish?
I: [41:37] Yes. Definitely. She definitely knows Spanish. More Spanish than I do, probably.
A: [41:42] That's really cool. So do you have any final thoughts on anything that we've talked about in the last 41 minutes?
I: [41:52] No. I think I said everything. Definitely making the ESL system better, integrating more of the ESL students into the main school society and presenting them with more options. Like my cousin, she wanted to take biology honors, and they didn't allow her. They forced her to take a different science class. They forced her to take physical science with the other ESL students, which is an easier class, but-- I think that ESL is necessary if you don't learn English, but I think it could be better improved, and really in an-- I think also by-- If you integrate the ESL students into the school society, then they can better learn-- they're more motivated to learn English and can better learn it and we can help get rid of an accent that they might have, because they're talking more and more.
A: [43:11] Okay, well thank you for everything.
I: [43:14] Yes.
A: [43:15] That's it for now.
Es: Restricciones
Sin restricciones. Abierta para investigación.
Es: Ocupación del entrevistado
Estudiantes
Es: Género de entrevistado
Mujer
Es: Lengua de le entrevista
Inglés
Es: Resumen
Esta entrevista fue llevada a cabo por Alexandra Graham con la entrevistada Isabella Lima. Durante la entrevista, Isabella habla sobre sus experiencias en clases de ESL--inglés como un idioma segundo--en la escuela primaria cuando llegó a Carolina del Norte desde São Paulo, Brasil. Ella explica la estructura de sus clases, cómo se sentía sobre ellas, cómo aprendió el inglés, y quién la apoyaba cuando estaba aprendiendo su idioma segundo. Ella comparte cómo el bilingüismo la ha dado forma y también cómo cree que las clases de ESL pueden ser mejoradas en el sistema de escuelas públicas. La entrevista de 43 minutos y 17 segundos tomó lugar dentro de un carro al lado de un camión de tacos en Carrboro, NC. El carro estaba encendido y había ruidos ocasionales de otros carros en la calle u otros ruidos diversos. La entrevista tomó lugar el 28 de marzo en 2018. Alexandra está en su cuarto año en la Universidad de Carolina del Norte en Chapel Hill (UNC) y es de Wilmington, Carolina del Norte. Ella estudia la lingüística hispana y la economía, y se va a graduar en mayo 2018. Después de graduarse, ella va a seguir su maestría en la enseñanza en UNC con una fecha de graduación en 2019. Isabella está en su cuarto año en Jordan High School, una escuela preparatoria en Durham, North Carolina. Ella asistirá a una universidad comenzando en el otoño de 2018, pero todavía no ha decidido cuál universidad va a escoger. Ella quisiera seguir una carrera de justicia criminal y espera ser agente del FBI. La entrevistadora y la entrevistada se han conocido por tres años a través de un programa de mentorship en UNC. El programa se llama N.C. Sli. Junta a estudiantes latinos de la preparatoria con estudiantes de UNC. También ofrece talleres de la identidad y clases que ayudan a preparar los estudiantes para la universidad.
Es: Temas
Educación Básica y Media; Educación Superior; Lenguaje y comunicación; Experiencia migratoria; Educación
Es: Transcripción
Alex: [00:04] Hi. I'm here with Isabella Lima. I just have a few questions for you. So where are you from originally? When did you move to the U.S., and where exactly?
Isabella: [00:17] So I was born in São Paulo, Brazil. I moved to the U.S. in 2008 and I was about eight years old, almost nine. We moved to Durham because we had family in the area, so we moved in and stayed with my aunt.
A: [00:40] And do you still live there now?
I: [00:41] Yes, well, now I live on the Durham-Chapel Hill border, so pretty close.
A: [00:47] And how old are you now?
I: [00:48] I am eighteen.
A: [00:50] So what grade are you in and what are your plans for next year if you know them?
I: [00:54] I'm a senior at Jordan High School, and I plan on going to college next year. I'm not sure which one yet at the moment. I'm waiting to hear from other places still, but yes.
A: [01:10] Ok. We can kind of dive in to some of the language aspects of this. What is your first language and do you consider yourself a native speaker or fluent in that language?
I: [01:19] Yes. So my first language is Portuguese, from Brazil, not Portugal. I do consider myself a fluent speaker because I can read, write, speak Portuguese pretty well. I have a little bit of difficulty because I moved when I was pretty young, but I still consider myself a native speaker.
A: [01:49] And do you consider yourself to be a native speaker of English? Or how would you categorize your fluency level?
I: [01:55] I think I'm pretty fluent with English. I do-- Sometimes I do better than my other peers. So I think I'm pretty fluent in English also. I have difficulty pronouncing certain words sometimes, but I think that that's normal with any people. So I think I'm pretty fluent.
A: [02:16] But you wouldn't consider yourself to be a native speaker?
I: [02:19] I don't think a native. But definitely fluent.
A: [02:24] So since you moved to the United States at a fairly young age, how do you think that your age impacted your ability to learn English or a second language in general.
I: [02:32] I think it definitely helped because the younger you are when you learn a language, the faster you learn and the better you learn it. I think that me being nine, I was able to learn it pretty quickly, but if I had moved here earlier I would probably know it better and I would have less trouble pronouncing certain words, or I would be able to hear certain changes-- between then and than, and those little differences.
A: [03:06] Interesting. So how did you learn English? What were the services available to you or the requirements that you had to fulfil, or things that you did on your own?
I: [03:20] I was like-- I started going to elementary school and they placed me in the ESL program and it was me and two other Hispanic girls. They were twins. And we would go out of class and go to ESL and the teacher would teach us basic things in the beginning, you know, like basic vocabulary words like "up," "down" and things like that. That went on for all of my third grade year and a little bit into fourth grade, but by the end of third grade I knew English pretty well already. And then at home, my mom and my cousins and stuff, they would read to me and I would read little children's books and stuff so I could practice my English and get better at it. My mom bought a bunch of little vocab books and stuff like that. And then I had my cousins who would practice English with me.
A: [04:24] So you think you learned most of your English outside of the ESL classroom?
I: [04:28] Yes, because then I also had-- There were also kids at school who would try and talk to me and I would try and talk back to them in the best way I could. So I think that my English was learned by people around me helping me and influencing me and stuff like that.
A: [04:48] Okay, cool. So how did you feel being forced to learn a new language or did you feel forced at all?
I: [04:54] I was-- I felt more motivated than forced. I hated the fact that I couldn't really talk to people around me when I was at school since I was around people who spoke English throughout most of my day. I really wanted to communicate with them, so I didn't feel forced very much, but more motivated to want to learn the language so that I could communicate with my peers and help my mom.
A: [05:33] That's a pretty good segue to my next question: how were your interactions with your English-speaking peers when you first started school in the United States?
I: [05:40] Right in the beginning, I had a tough time because I-- some people tried to be friends with me, but I didn't really understand what they said at all. So the beginning was tough because I didn't understand the customs and I didn't really understand what was happening and what people were saying, but the kids were very nice. They tried to reach out and stuff, but as I started to learn more English, I was better able to communicate with them and I learned the customs and everything that happens in elementary school. So as my third grade year went on, by the second half, I was better able. I had more friends and I was able to communicate with them and we would play at recess.
A: [06:34] Did you ever have any negative responses from other kids as far as your language barrier?
I: [06:43] None that I remember. I think it was just-- I think in the beginning I just felt very left out. But I think that was just because I didn't know how to interact with them and they already had their own little friend groups and stuff. And it was hard for me in the beginning to try and be friends with them when I couldn't really communicate.
A: [07:07] So you've-- I mean you already talked about a little bit how those interactions changed over time-- So how quickly did those interactions become more easy and in what ways?
I: [07:20] I think it was more towards-- So the end of my third grade year and then mostly during fourth and fifth grade. During-- By the end of third grade, I had a few friends that I played with and I could talk to them already and stuff, but it was mainly during fourth grade where I started making more friends and I started finding people that I fit in with and stuff. And then fourth grade was also the year that I was added to an AIG math class, so I was opened up to different people that I didn't have contact with before. So that was another way I made more friends and stuff.
A: [08:17] So at what point did you feel fully capable in your English speaking abilities and feel really comfortable around your peers?
I: [08:26] I think it was when-- in fourth grade. Third grade I was still-- I felt that I was still learning, especially during the first half of third grade, I was-- I didn't know any English at all. During the second half, I knew some, but I wasn't-- I didn't feel very comfortable. But then I had that summer after third grade year right before fourth grade, and then that was a time where I practiced more. I would help my mom with her house cleaning business that she had and sending emails to clients and stuff and speaking. So fourth grade I felt more comfortable with my English and talking to people.
A: [09:11] Pretty cool. That's really quick. Switching gears a little bit, how do you think that your native language Portuguese has shaped you?
I: [09:21] I think it definitely has had an effect on me, you know, just because of the-- Well, Portuguese has helped me a lot. I take French in high school and Portuguese has helped me learn different languages like French, and then it has also helped me with Spanish, which I can speak a little bit of. So it has definitely provided me with many benefits. And then I think that Portuguese-- I think that me being able to speak a different language just sets me apart in a way. And it makes me a little different than the other people, which I like.
A: [10:24] Do you think that could be the case with any other language, or do you think that Portuguese has any specific effects on you?
I: [10:36] I think it can be with any other language, but I think that what-- where that language is linked to-- like Portuguese is linked to Brazil, which has a big impact on me. So it has personal meaning to me, but if I spoke Chinese, that would set me apart too. So I think that speaking any other language sets you apart and makes you different from others, but just the connection that it has to a country or something, that has an impact on you.
A: [11:11] So can you talk a little bit more about how your bilingualism has shaped you, or what advantages that it has given you?
I: [11:19] I think it definitely has, like I said before, provided me with a chance-- It has made it easier for me to learn different languages, especially Romance languages. They're all very similar to each other. So I don't have such a difficulty in learning French as other students have, because some of the words are similar and things like that. So I have more experience with it and it's easier and it sticks with me. I think that's definitely a way that being bilingual has helped me and helped shape me. It also increased my interest in learning other languages since I already knew-- since I knew Portuguese and I learned English, it made me want to learn different languages, and the more languages I learn, the better I think I'm making myself, because I wanna be able to communicate with other people from different countries. I don't wanna be that person who only speaks one language and can't communicate with anyone else.
A: [12:46] So earlier you briefly mentioned using your new English skills to help your mom. Can you speak a little bit more about that and what that means?
I: [12:58] My mom, she also-- When we came here she also didn't know any English at all. And so she signed up to take classes at Durham Tech so she could learn some English, but that wasn't really enough because she learned some stuff fairly quickly and she learned the grammar portion, but speaking for her was and still is very hard. She doesn't feel very comfortable speaking English because she feels afraid that she's gonna say the wrong thing. So I have always been the person that has translated for her and spoken for her and written emails for her and everything. So when I was younger and she still had her house cleaning business, I would email the clients for her, I would go to meetings with new clients for her and translate everything that they said and what she said back. So it has always been a very strong relationship between the two of us. Translating has brought-- built that connection even stronger and stuff.
A: [14:18] So that's something that you've enjoyed doing?
I: [14:19] Yes. Not all the time. There are certain situations-- When she's-- It's hard to translate her emotions also, when she's really angry and I'm trying to translate, it's very hard, because I'm always smiling and sometimes I think it's funny. And so they look at her face, but then they hear what I'm saying and it doesn't match up. So sometimes it's not very [enjoyful], but it's something that I've always liked doing.
A: [14:54] Interesting. Thank you. So switching gears a little bit again, do you feel like you have lost any of your identity with your native language or culture when you began to learn English, or, on the other hand, do you feel like being bilingual and bicultural has given you a richer identity? Can you speak to both questions?
I: [15:12] I think that by learning English, I lost some of how-- I lost a little bit of how comfortable I felt speaking Portuguese, because I was suddenly surrounded all by English most of my day in school. And while it really helped me learn English and made my English better, I also lost some of my Portuguese. Which is okay because, I mean, at home I still speak Portuguese and I still speak Portuguese with my family, but I think that by learning another language, it took a little bit away from the language that I-- from my native language. And then I think that by being bilingual, it has just-- or you said given me a richer identity. Yeah I think it just has shaped me. Helped shape me for-- or it has shaped my interests in learning new languages and working with people who also need to have things translated and stuff.
A: [16:45] So are you still interested in studying Portuguese and fostering those language skills?
I: [16:51] Yes, so I want to learn-- So I want to continue learning Portuguese and become really, really fluent so that I'm not always asking, "how do you this," or "how do you say that?" But then I also want to learn other languages like Spanish and become fluent in French also.
A: [17:13] So how do you feel in your conversations that you have with other native speakers of Portuguese?
I: [17:19] When it's people that I'm pretty comfortable around with, like my family and stuff, I don't-- I mean, I love speaking Portuguese-- When I'm around people I'm more comfortable with, then I'm more comfortable speaking, especially if I mess up and stuff. But sometimes when-- Like if I go to Brazil, sometimes I get more nervous when I'm speaking because I don't wanna mess up, because I don't know, I just-- In a way I kind of feel a little bit ashamed if I mess up when I'm speaking Portuguese in Brazil, because that's my native language and I don't wanna be the person that goes, "oh, how do you say this," or "what is that word," or "what does that mean?" So when I'm in Brazil with some of my childhood friends or anything like that, I get a little bit more nervous when I'm speaking and I try to think of how I would say things sometimes.
A: [18:24] Interesting. Is that just with the content of your speech? Do you feel like your accent is pretty native?
I: [18:31] Yeah. I think for some words sometimes my English accent may come in a little bit because if I don't know a word in Portuguese I may use a similar word that I know in English and try to make it sound Portuguese-ish. But my-- I don't really have an accent when I speak Portuguese. Also my tone of voice completely changes.
A: [18:57] Mhm, it does.
I: [18:59] Completely changes.
A: [19:02] So moving back to the topic of ESL, English as a Second Language, could you tell me a little bit more about the structure of your ESL classes? I know you mentioned already that you went to a separate room to take the classes, but could you tell me a little bit more about that?
I: [19:18] Yeah, so in third grade they would take us out of-- I think it was whenever they did English, because I would stay in my regular class when they did math. But they would take us out whenever they learned English, and they would take us into a different room. And it was me and only two other girls. It was this really nice little old teacher who would have all these little flashcards and candy and stuff, and explain to us and teach us English. So my ESL class was very small, but other ESL classes, like the ESL classes they have at my high school, they're very large and it's many students. And I feel that those students are kind of separated from the rest of the school, which I don't think is very good, because then that prevents them from getting better at their English. Because if they're only surrounded by people who speak Spanish or, you know, maybe whatever language they speak, then they're not gonna be motivated to learn English. Which I think was a big factor for me, because I was only in ESL for a certain part of the day, and the rest I was thrown into a big classroom where everything they spoke was English and the only classroom I stayed in was math. So I think that being surrounded by others who speak English motivates you to want to learn English and communicate with others.
A: [21:06] So what else did you like or dislike about the structure of the ESL classes that you were in? What was helpful, what was unhelpful?
I: [21:16] I think I liked having a small class, because it felt more personal and I could learn better and stuff. I didn't like that whenever we took a standardized testing, I had to go to a different room with other ESL children. I didn't like that, because I didn't like being separated from my peers even though we took the same test. But I wish that-- I guess for some people it's helpful, but I never understood, because they never read anything out loud to me or anything like that, so I didn't understand why I had to go to a separate room. So I didn't like that part, being separated from my peers. But I liked the ESL classes. I think they're more helpful when they're small, because you can focus more attention on the students and make sure they're understanding everything that's going on.
A: [22:19] Was there ever any point where you felt thrust into a school setting and you didn't really know what was going on, or you felt like things weren't explained to you very well?
I: [22:31] First day of school. I had no idea what was going on. I sort of knew how to ask how to go to the bathroom, but I didn't really know. So the first day of school I had no idea what was going on. It took me a couple weeks to understand that snack time was a thing. We didn't have snack time in Brazil. I was the only kid who didn't bring snacks for the first two weeks of school, because I didn't know that was a thing. Cafeteria lunch was so gross, I didn't know it would be that bad. So it took awhile for me to start bringing my own food, and then I became the girl who brought home-cooked meals instead of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. So almost all of my third grade year was a very new experience for me and I was just very thrown into a environment that I was not familiar with at all. And it was really hard at first. I didn't like it in the beginning. I really wanted to go back, but my mom said no. But it got better as things went on. Oh, and also my ESL teacher tried to explain to me what a fire drill was, and I did not understand it and then those alarms went off and I had no idea what was going on. I think that all of my third grade year was just a very new experience where I was just thrown into a new environment and I was adapting to the changing situations.
A: [24:18] Who were the, kind of, key players in your third grade year? Trying to make sure that you knew what was going on and that you knew where you needed to be and what you were supposed to be doing. Who made you feel the most comfortable?
I: [24:29] I loved my ESL teacher. She was really nice and she was very helpful. My main third grade teacher, she was also very nice. I don't remember her name, but she was really, really nice. I remember what she looks like, though. And then there was a girl who tried to be my friend on the first day of school. She-- I don't remember her name, but she introduced herself. She was my first friend of my third grade year. She tried to be friends with me and it was really nice. And then definitely my mom and some of my family members who helped me with my English and reading.
A: [25:21] That's really nice. Did your ESL teacher speak any Portuguese?
I: [25:26] No. I don't even remember-- I think she knew some Spanish words, but I don't think she was fluent in Spanish at all. I think she mainly only spoke English. She was a very nice old white lady.
A: [25:43] So how does that work in an ESL classroom, with so many people coming from different language backgrounds and an ESL teacher that might not speak any of those languages? How do you communicate and what is that dynamic like?
I: [25:54] It's very hard. I guess, mainly it's just-- It would be more helpful if the teacher spoke, you know, either Spanish or, you know, some language that would help most of her students understand, because it's hard understanding everything in English. I still don't know why we would use a certain word here and not a certain word there. So it's very hard explaining everything in English when you don't know how to say anything in English. It would definitely be more helpful if the teacher spoke Spanish and they could explain, you know, why this happens or why this happens in Spanish instead of English where you're not gonna understand it very well. So it’s definitely hard, but I think in the end, it can be helpful, because then the students get used to learning English a little quicker because they have to understand what you're saying. And then they also use-- Well with me at least, they used a lot of pictures and-- Like when we were learning up and down, she used a chair, and she would put things above the chair and below the chair and things like that. So you know, imagery and doing little scenarios and stuff definitely helps.
A: [27:26] Do you think that kind of learning style for a language was more helpful for you to remember those things rather than having them just simply translated from Portuguese?
I: [27:36] Yes. I mean definitely having the English words translated into Portuguese was helpful. It still is today. But definitely having--seeing something being done or having a picture of it is more helpful-- is very helpful also. Because you know, you're not always gonna be able to translate a certain word into Portuguese. There's not always a perfect translation. So if you could see a picture of it or you could see it being done, that's definitely helpful for it to stick in your brain and for you to remember it.
A: [28:15] Interesting. So would you have changed anything about your ESL experience?
I: [28:22] I think I just wish that there would have been more kids in my ESL class. I liked it being very small, but then I also didn't feel like there were many people I could connect with in there since it was only two girls and they were twins and they spoke Spanish and I had a hard time communicating with them. So I think that maybe if there had been two more children, three more children in there, that would have made it a little better. But yeah.
A: [29:00] Do you think you would have had a much different experience if there had been maybe just one other kid who spoke Portuguese?
I: [29:08] Yeah, I think I would have-- I think if there was another kid who spoke Portuguese, I wouldn't have felt so excluded or left out. I think I would have been able to have that one friend who you could talk to, but I don't know. I don't think it would have affected my ability to learn English at all.
A: [29:37] Interesting, so you would have felt just as motivated?
I: [29:39] Yes, I think so. Because I would still have been surrounded by hundreds of other kids who spoke English.
A: [29:49] Interesting. So how do you feel, or how did you feel then and how do you feel now speaking one language at home and a different language at school and at work and in public situations?
I: [30:03] I like it. I mean, it's part of my norm. But sometimes I get mixed up if-- Sometimes I'm at school and I wanna say something in Portuguese. Or sometimes I'm at home and I have to say it in English, because I forgot how to say it in Portuguese. So I like it, but my brain can get a little crazy sometimes. But it's fun. I like being able to talk in a different language with my mom or my family members and not everyone can understand it. And I love when I go to stores and I hear other people speaking Portuguese, because I can pick it up instantly. I can hear it in people's accents when they speak English. And then whenever I hear it, I go, "Mom, they're Brazilian. They're speaking Portuguese."
A: [30:56] Can you tell the difference-- I mean, you probably-- Yes, the answer is yes-- between Brazilian Portuguese and Portugal Portuguese instantly?
I: [31:02] Yes. The accent, some of the vocabulary words they use-- We used to have friends who were from Portugal and sometimes I had a hard time understanding what they were saying, because their words would mean different things and their accent is very different than ours.
A: [31:20] So do you ever remember being monolingual? I know that was kind of a while ago, but--
I: [31:26] I just remember being-- When I still lived in Brazil, just speaking Portuguese all the time. And then when I was here, but then as soon as I came here, I started going to school. That was when I started learning English, but I definitely remember my time-- the years I spent in Brazil and Portuguese was the only thing I spoke.
A: [31:54] Does that feel really different to you?
I: [31:55] Yes. It feels weird, because, almost half of my life that I've lived until now, I have been speaking two languages. So it's weird to think that for the other half of my life, I only spoke one language, when now I speak two all of the time. So it's weird.
A: [32:24] Interesting. So do you have a language preference? Is there one you feel more comfortable in? And has that answer changed over time?
I: [32:32] Yes. So I used to feel a lot more comfortable in-- whenever I spoke Portuguese, but I think it's kind of-- I think it's a little bit more comfortable in English, just because I use it more often. So I think just because-- I think it's because I use it more often so I'm more comfortable speaking it, even though sometimes I'll get nervous, or I don't know how to pronounce things right, or my accent comes in a little bit, but I think I'm still more comfortable with English. With Portuguese, I'm still comfortable, but I have a harder time saying words sometimes than I do in English, just because I may not know it or I forgot it. But I'm still comfortable when I speak Portuguese.
A: [33:33] So if you're having a really deep conversation with a friend, you would rather it be in English than in Portuguese? Assuming that that person speaks both languages equally well.
I: [33:44] I think so. Because a lot of my cousins, they both speak Portuguese and English, and our dialogue is mostly in English. So I think I would rather have it be in English.
A: [33:57] What is that dynamic like with all of your bilingual family?
I: [34:01] It's funny, because I have to speak Portuguese with my mom and my dad and my sister and my aunt, but then I speak English with my cousins, with some of my cousins. With some of my other cousins, I only speak Portuguese. And then even the bilingual ones. And then my little cousins, I mostly speak English with them, because their English is better than their Portuguese. But then my aunt yells at us to speak Portuguese, so it's just a whole cycle of me speaking English and then getting yelled at for speaking English [34:44] speak Portuguese. But yeah, it's-- If you go to my house and my family is around, you'll hear Portuguese and English at the same time. And we'll speak a sentence that has Portuguese and English in the same sentence.
A: [35:04] Wrapping up, do you have any final thoughts on the ESL system in public schools? Maybe in North Carolina or really anywhere else? Can you draw from your own experience a little bit or maybe experiences that your friends have had?
I: [35:19] I think it definitely could be improved. Especially the one at Jordan High School where I go to school. I have a cousin who goes to-- who is in the ESL program at Jordan High School, and she's a sophomore. She was in it as a freshman and a sophomore, and her telling me, you know, of her experiences and me seeing other kids who are in ESL, I think it can definitely be improved. I think that they're too separated from the school environment. I mean, obviously you're gonna wanna sit with people, you know, who speak the same language so that you can communicate with them, but I think that their classes are too separated. I mean, obviously they're gonna go to ESL class so they can learn English, but then the other classes they go to, like math, it's ESL students. It's all ESL students. Regular English, all ESL students. Science, all ESL students. So I think that they could do a better job of integrating these ESL students into classes with regular students, because at the end, you're learning the same material. But if you're in a class with all ESL students and you have ten other kids in the class who speak Spanish, it's gonna be very hard to teach everyone the material when those kids are constantly distracted by their peers and stuff. So I think that the school could do a better job of integrating those ESL students into the school society and regular classes. And it could also raise awareness of all of the ESL students we have in the school. Jordan High School has over 2,000 students, and we have a lot of ESL students and refugees. So it could definitely raise awareness of the students that are in our school. And that can go for other schools, too. I'm not fully aware of how it is in other high schools and middle schools in North Carolina, but I think that integrating the ESL students more into the school society with regular classes and providing more information for the parents of how the school system works and registering for classes and everything like that.
A: [38:03] So would you say that the ESL classes at Jordan High School might be hidden on purpose, or is it just a lack of awareness kind of by accident, or lack of trying to get it out there?
I: [38:15] I think that it just has to do with-- Maybe initially whenever the ESL program at Jordan started, it might have been to keep them separated, and I don't think that if that was the goal-- I don't think it's the goal now, but we haven't done anything to change that. I think that now it's just an accidental thing where it keeps them separated, but it's also-- There's no one doing anything to try and change that situation. And then I also think there should be tutoring sessions available for ESL students so that they can get their English better.
A: [39:13] Going back to your cousin who's in ESL currently, does she-- Are there any other students in her-- female?
I: [39:22] Mhm.
A: [39:23} Okay. Are there any other students in her ESL classes that speak Portuguese, or is she the only Portuguese speaker?
I: [39:28] So there was one other girl who spoke Portuguese who had moved here from Brazil last year also, but that girl is not currently in ESL anymore, because her mom went into the school and-- or her stepmom went into the school and basically said a bunch of stuff and got her out of ESL, because they thought that she was okay going into regular classes and regular English and classes that she wanted to take, and not having to take ESL one more time.
A: [40:06] So do you think your cousin-- I know you can't really speak on her behalf, but has she mentioned anything about how she feels about being the only Portuguese speaker in high school versus elementary school as you were?
I: [40:23] I think that in the-- So she had the-- sort of the same feeling that I had whenever I talked to her. She told me that she felt very motivated to learn English so she could communicate with people around her, so we had sort of the same motivation. I think that she didn't feel, I think, as left out as I did, because she was better able to talk Spanish to the other students around her. So she was able to make some friends who did speak Spanish, so she had more friends to talk to. And then she had learned a little bit of English the summer before school started with us, and she had gotten-- Her, I think her aunt got a tutor for her so she could learn a little bit of English before school started so she could communicate a little bit. But yeah.
A: [41:32] That's cool. So would you say that in ESL, she has also learned Spanish?
I: [41:37] Yes. Definitely. She definitely knows Spanish. More Spanish than I do, probably.
A: [41:42] That's really cool. So do you have any final thoughts on anything that we've talked about in the last 41 minutes?
I: [41:52] No. I think I said everything. Definitely making the ESL system better, integrating more of the ESL students into the main school society and presenting them with more options. Like my cousin, she wanted to take biology honors, and they didn't allow her. They forced her to take a different science class. They forced her to take physical science with the other ESL students, which is an easier class, but-- I think that ESL is necessary if you don't learn English, but I think it could be better improved, and really in an-- I think also by-- If you integrate the ESL students into the school society, then they can better learn-- they're more motivated to learn English and can better learn it and we can help get rid of an accent that they might have, because they're talking more and more.
A: [43:11] Okay, well thank you for everything.
I: [43:14] Yes.
A: [43:15] That's it for now.
Interviewee Journey Coordinates
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Interviewee Date of Birth
Fecha de nacimiento del entrevistado
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R-0906 -- Lima, Isabella.
Description
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This interview was conducted by Alexandra Graham with interviewee Isabella Lima. Throughout the interview, Isabella talks about her experiences in ESL--English as a Second Language--classes in elementary school when she first arrived in North Carolina from São Paulo, Brazil. She explains the structure of her classes, how she felt about them, how she learned English, and who her main supporters were as she was learning her second language. She shares about how bilingualism has shaped her as well as how she believes ESL classes can be improved in the public-school system. The interview, lasting 43 minutes and 17 seconds, took place in a parked car outside of a taco truck in Carrboro, NC. The car was running and there were occasional outside sounds from cars driving by or other miscellaneous noises. The interview took place on March 28, 2018.
Alexandra is a senior at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill from Wilmington, North Carolina. She is a Hispanic Linguistics and Economics double major graduating in May 2018. After she graduates, she will be pursuing her Master of Arts in Teaching at UNC-Chapel Hill with a graduation date in 2019. Isabella is a senior at Jordan High School in Durham, North Carolina. She will be studying at a four-year university beginning in the Fall of 2018, but she has not yet decided which university she will choose. She wishes to pursue a career in criminal justice and she has hopes of becoming an FBI agent. The interviewer and interviewee have known each other for three years through a mentorship program at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill called N.C. Sli. N.C. Sli matches Latinx high school students in central North Carolina with college students at UNC. It also provides identity workshops and college preparatory classes.
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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.
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No restrictions. Open to research.
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2018-04-09
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R0906_Audio.mp3
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<a href="http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/sohp/id/27560">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Library. Southern Historical Collection.</a>