Luis Rafael Zarama
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Interview Text and Audio
Abstract
As Bishop of the Diocese of Raleigh, Rafael Zarama oversees a network of about one hundred Catholic churches in the eastern half of North Carolina. Parishioners in this region are diverse and include people who have immigrated from Latin American countries such as Mexico, Nicaragua, and El Salvador, where Catholicism is a prevalent religion. He also describes parishioners who have migrated to NC from other regions of the world, including India, Africa, and Asia. Catholicism in North Carolina has grown in recent decades, reflecting not only the arrival of immigrants but also U.S.-born individuals who have migrated from other parts of the country where Catholicism is more common. Only about five percent of the Catholic population of the Diocese of Raleigh is comprised of U.S.-born North Carolinians. In this interview, Bishop Zarama discusses his cultural adjustment after migrating to the United States from Colombia, how his own life experience helps him serve migrant parishioners, his advice for building multicultural and multilingual faith communities, the importance of maintaining cultural identity, his work as a member of the Migration Committee of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB), and the necessity of prayer.R1022_Audio.mp3
Transcript
Ella McCalip: OK. This is Ella McCalip. I'm here with Bishop Luis Rafael Zarama of the Diocese of Raleigh at the diocesan office. Today is March 7th, 2024, and the time is 9:58 AM. We'll be discussing Bishops Zarama's own migration experience and his vision for Latin American migrants in the Diocese of Raleigh. And before we get started interviewing, I want to ask, do you consent to this interview being recorded?
Luis Rafael Zarama: I consent and it’s fine with me.
EM: OK, wonderful. So I guess we'll just get started. First question: I understand you're from Pasto, Colombia. Can you tell me a little bit about your experience growing up and living there, your childhood? [Clears throat]
LRZ: Thank you, Ella. Well, Ella, I think it would be too long to explain [EM laughs] my childhood and my life in Colombia. I'm from...my hometown is Pasto, as you mentioned, it’s a city southwest of the capital, it’s up in the mountains. You have a picture there, where you can see, that is my hometown there [gestures to a picture on the wall of his office], I keep in my office to remember where, where I'm coming from. It was a small city at the time that I grew up. It was a beautiful experience, because I was able to walk everywhere. [I] was not in need of public transportation, [there] was public transportation, but [there] was the freedom to be able to walk. Something that is, I have a good memory, is, is all the different events that we had as a family when I grew up. Saturday, so each Saturday we had a lunch, the whole family in my grandfather's home. We gathered together every Saturday with cousins and uncles and--. That is a beautiful memory of being together, being together. And listen to the stories of my grandfather, what was his life when he grew up? The beautiful respect for him, for my grandfather is something--and with respect with love with not because we're afraid of him--because who, who he was. And then that was beautiful. It's a good memories. It's a good memories of that time there. And this is, that was the way in which I grew up in my hometown, until I was twenty-eight. Of my life living there until twenty-eight. The food. The life. Looking back was a great, a great time.
EM: That's wonderful. Do you miss the food?
LRZ: Yeah, that is the thing that I missed the most [EM laughs] you know, is the taste. You can have it here. But it doesn't taste as there. I don’t know what is there but it’s giving a different taste.
EM: That makes sense. There's something about it, yeah.
LRZ: It's something about it. I don't know if. The place. The way that they cook. The products are fresh. And that make a big difference.
EM: I’m sure. So you mentioned you were 28 when you left Colombia, is that right?
LRZ: No, I left my hometown.
EM: Mmm.
LRZ: I make my studies in Bogota for canon law. That is the law of the church.
EM: Okay.
LRZ: And when I was growing up, I studied in my hometown, I was a teacher there for 11 years in schools. And then and after that I went to Bogota to study canon law. And after I finished my studies in canon law, when I was, when I came to the United States in 1991.
EM: Okay, 1991. And what motivated your decision to move?
LRZ: That is a question that is very interesting because it was not a motivation for me to come to the United States, it was not my dream, it was not what I was looking for. My parents, they already live, they were already living in Orlando in Florida. I never was interested in moving to the United States. I enjoyed my life in Colombia. As a person of faith, I think was a way in which, I don't know how, the Lord brought me here to the United States, to the archdiocese of Atlanta.
EM: And so is that where you entered seminary, in Atlanta?
LRZ: Yeah, I was in, I already made all my studies in Colombia, my formation studies in Colombia. In Atlanta, I was received as a seminarian, and I was there for two years having an experience there. For me to be able to know the diocese, the archdiocese, and for them to know me. And that was a big shock.
EM: [EM laughs] So why was it then and there that you went to Atlanta? Was it that call from God or--?
LRZ: That was--well, what's very interesting is that I never, I never applied. I never was looking for to come here. It was through the executive assistant of the Dean of the canon law faculty, that through her knowing someone who was a friend of the priest in Atlanta, she spoke to that woman and she spoke to that priest, and that priest was interested to know me, and that was the beginning of my way to come here to the United S -- but not was because of me, not because what I was looking for. It was one person, this executive assistant, who, according to her, I had a vocation. And she sold the product to a priest, and he was interested to know me, and that was the beginning of the process to come to the United States.
EM: Can you tell me a little bit about those early years after you became a priest in Atlanta?
LRZ: Well, Ella, when I came here, you know, I didn't speak any English. It was a nightmare.
EM: [EM laughs] What was your experience learning English and being a new priest?
LRZ: [Sigh] Cultures are completely different. You know, it's not only the language. It’s the culture. Without the language to communicate, plus the culture was different, it was not easy at all to adjust. I was the only--at that time--I was the only seminarian from Colombia, the only one who spoke Spanish and no English.
EM: Right.
LRZ: And then being unable to talk, being unable to let them know how you, how I was feeling, was not easy. I at one point was ready to leave the program. It was too much [EM laughs]. But thanks be to God someone was there in my life who stopped me, and I continued the process there. But it’s--each language has their own way to express, you know, Spanish is more romantic, English is more technical language, and [to] keep the balance between both languages is--it's not easy. It's not easy. In the Anglo culture, where an example that I used that it took me a long time to understand, is when you make a phone call, you're going to do what you need to do in the phone call, you know, it’s, it’s almost no “hi.” It’s nothing. You're going to business. And sometimes no “goodbye.” [EM laughs]. And for us, in our culture, when you make a phone call first you speak about everything. [EM laughs] You speak about family. You speak about life. You speak about everything and at the end they say “I'm calling you because...” That is, at the end of the conversation. What is--for example, when I was a priest, I was a pastor, there was a physician who was a parishioner, and he called me one time from the hospital with a patient who was there. And the doctor was--he asked me to ask a question to this person. You know, because he didn't speak Spanish, the doctor. And he was looking for me to help him to translate. And he asked me one question, and the answer will be only “yes” or “not.” I asked the question in Spanish to this person who was in the hospital. And to be able to say “yes” or “not” took him 15 minutes. And the doctor who is a friend of mine said, “Took you 15 minutes to say yes?!” And so that is the culture, that is the culture.
EM: So with those differences in culture, do you have a vision for serving and building a community among, here in the Diocese, a very culturally and linguistically diverse group of believers? I guess both spiritually and materially.
LRZ: I had that experience. I said to have that experience when I was a pastor in the Archdiocese of Atlanta, in a small parish in the northeast of the archdiocese. To build a community, the first thing that you need to do, especially when it is multicultural, is to find ways in which you allow both communities to start to see each other at the beginning. It’s not forcing anything. You cannot force any integration at all. That is a process. Accepting that they are there. Seeing each other. Maybe later on you can have some activities together as a parish. And little by little, to win the trust of both because it's not only the ones who are here who need to trust and the ones who are coming; it’s the ones who are coming who need to trust in the people here. And for me, one of the challenges is that we are very impatient. And we try to force things, but that doesn't work. Because need to take the time to really make them feel comfortable. In our faith, in the way that the Anglo community expressed their faith is very simple. In the Latino community, expressing faith is a lot of different traditions, processions, representations, parties, it’s a lot of activities. You know, for the Anglo culture, to raise money for the parish suitcase through an envelope, it's for pledges. You know, I say, you know, “I pledge to give such amount of money three years” and mark there and sign there and--. For the Latino community, that doesn't work. They can promise to give you $1,000,000, but they never give anything. Because it's not the way in which the Latino community works. The Latino community raised money through activities. If it's something they give money, and they are very generous. And one thing that we need to keep in mind is that we cannot see the immigrants here as poor people. That is a way to treat them less than us. Maybe that they don't have the money that another people have; doesn't mean that they are poor and we need to treat them in that way. Because will be the lack of respect. They are generous in their own way as the Anglo community is generous. The Latino community, you know them, and you need to treat them with respect and respect the traditions that they have to give money, they are very generous.
EM: So I guess with some of those differences in the way that the “Anglo” or “Latino” community sort of approaches the faith, have you seen in your time in the diocese changes that have been brought about by the Latin American communities here? What might be some of those different cultural practices, or what might be some things that the church has increased offering certain services?
LRZ: We have Catholic Charities, who is there to help the people who are in need. In our churches, it’s a challenge. How will we serve them? One big difference, for example, the Anglo community, they know whether the times in which the office or the parish is open is like business hours. If you work with the Hispanic community, it's after five o’clock, when they finish their jobs. That is when they like to come to the church, you know. And we need to learn that. We need to learn that to do that is to respond to the needs of the people. The needs of how we help them that they don't lose their traditions because traditions in our culture and every culture is what give us our own identity. We express our identities through our expressions and culture and traditions. When you take away that, they are lost. And that is how we can help them to keep the traditions alive. And use that opportunity for evangelization. Because the people like to come and they are there. How you can use that time? To teach them to help them to be closer to the church. It’s a treasure that is there that we need to learn to use that, that moment. And another--and one thing that is important too is for the Anglos here is to remember--because we humans, we don't, we don't have memory. We have a very short memory--but we need to remember us, living here, where our families came from. Because this country has been built by immigrants, waves of immigrants in different times in the history. And every wave of immigrants suffers. And very few people, I think immigrate [from] their own country because they wish to come here. No, they were forced by different reasons. Lack of jobs. Violence. It's not that I say, “Oh. I'd like to go there.” No, they were escaping from a situation. And the price was high. And if we--if we looking back and seeing how our ancestors came here, how hard it was for them to come here, to start to live here, we will understand better the situation of the new wave of immigrants that we have. But sometimes we don't--we don't get it. We don't get it. We don't understand. But when you have violence, when you don't have and you don't have, in your country, when you, when you don't have means to live life in a very...nice way with the dignity that is supposed to have, and when you see that [there] is opportunity in another place to have what you don't have, and if you're looking to give the best to your family, the sacrifices that these people are doing, we don't get it sometimes.
EM: Yeah. Do you feel that your own migration experience has influenced your pastoral approach as a priest and then as a bishop?
LRZ: I can understand the barrier, the huge barrier of language. I got it, I understand that. I understand very well culture, adaptation. Something that is difficult for me, because it was not my experience, for me when I came here to the States, I came with papers. Legally. And with stuff. I don't know what it means being here without a legal status. I tried to understand but I didn't have that experience, and I think it's tough because in one moment and another moment they can stop, they can arrest and send them back. And whatever they were able to be here, to build here, will be gone. But for me as a bishop here in the diocese, I think this is a beautiful thing, is how the church can be the place in which everyone, Anglos, Africans--because it’s not only Latinos who are here in the diocese, a lot of people from India, a lot of people from different countries in Africa--how when we come to the Church we can feel that it’s home. That you are treated with respect, when you feel there is love there, and when you are able to experience that someone cares for you. And it is like OK, it’s part of what you were there, you can feel it here because we celebrate. It's the same Eucharist, same language. It's a place in which you can feel at home. Safe place. I think that is--. I cannot change realities. I don't have the power to change things, but at least if we are conscious to welcome them and respect them and celebrate with them, we're giving something that is very important. And at least in that moments, we respect their dignity. That is a very important thing.
EM: Are there any particular ways that the diocese has made an effort to increase language accessibility, particularly for Spanish speakers, but maybe any other languages in the diocese, priests speaking different languages, things like that?
LRZ: Well, in our formation today for our seminarians, I have a place where I send in them, our seminarians, in which, at least at the end of their formation our seminarians need to speak two languages: English, and at least to celebrate the sacraments in Spanish. Because half of our Church in the Diocese of Raleigh is in Hispanic community. And we cannot ignore them. And preparing our seminars to be able to serve them, that is the beginning of something. The other part is how open each priest is to be able to be immersed in the culture. Because it's not enough, it’s not enough to speak [the language]. Because if you don't understand the culture, you cannot reach the people. And it's the same thing for the priests who are coming from another countries, you know. It is, if you don't understand how we live here in the United States, you don't know how to help the people here. You know in both ways it’s not only the Anglo priest it’s too the Hispanic, the African, the whatever priests are here that we need to understand, not only speak the language, but we need to understand the culture. And be open to enrich the other culture and to be able to receive the richness of the other culture and working together.
EM: [EM turns notebook page] Do you know of what parishes in the diocese might have a lot of efforts to sort of reach parishioners from different cultures or have an integrated community? I know we said, you know, we can't force that, but are there parishes where that's happening?
LRZ: They are many. They are many. I cannot say some names, and later on, forget there's another one. But what I can say, [there] are fewer parish[es], in which they maintain only one culture. The rest of the parishes in the diocese are multicultural, in which they are service in English, service in Spanish, some of them they have service for the--we have some churches who work with the Korean community, with the Vietnamese community, we have a church who, that is, who serve the Indians and have the rites within the Indian community. But most of the parishes are more multicultural and the great thing that we are doing here at this time--in the north, when the waves of immigration happen, each culture each language build their own church and serve their own community. The Irish, they have the Irish Church, the Italian have the Italian, the German, the Polish. Each one had their own church—here, no. It’s a church, and it’s open to share their space with different communities. I think that is another way of evangelization. You start to see who's coming, I don't know, but OK, they are welcome. And little by little, things change.
EM: That’s beautiful, that we have more multicultural parishes.
LRZ: Yeah, it's beautiful. It is beautiful and something that we need to keep in mind. For example, for the first generation of young people here, being born here or growing up here, the fact that they speak better English than Spanish or better English than Vietnamese doesn't mean that they are Anglos. Because they are still thinking with the Spanish culture or Vietnamese culture, with all the traditions of their, of their culture. The means that they speak doesn't mean that they already assimilate [to] the Anglo culture, you know. And we need to respect that. Because respecting them is the way that we can enrich each other. We don't make, we cannot make them feel bad because, no, they are in the process. Their parents speak Spanish, the music that they listen is in Spanish, the food that they eat is in Spanish, the TV, the channels that they see at home is in Spanish, but they speak English better than Spanish. But they are rooted in this, in the in the Spanish culture.
EM: I guess switching gears a little bit, I also have seen that you're a part of the USCCB [United States Conference of Catholic Bishops] Migration Committee. What has that role looked like, and what do you hope to achieve maybe in the future in that role?
LRZ: That office is, the purpose of that office is to lobby Congress for better treatment for the immigration people, is to lobby for, find a way to make a path for all these people who are in DACA and DACA who are legal but not legal, they have a document, but they never can, they can never move from there, from that I can say it's like a limbo. You know, they are here, but they are not here, they are, they are here, but they don't have the same rights. They have been growing here, they have been studying here, but they don't know. They are stuck. And it is how, with Congress, with the government, trying to find a way to make an immigration process human. The church is never promoting illegal immigration. Now we need to be very clear. What the church is doing is, once these people reach here, not because we brought them, they got here to the state: How [do] we serve them? In some occasions, they are saying that we are bringing the, we are guilty of the people who are coming, we are bringing people, we are bringing immigrants here to the state. No, we are not doing that. We are serving the ones who are here. And as a church, we cannot ask for ID to serve them. And it is the way to intercede for a, for a way in which could be a solution, and a solution for the country too, to help the country ( ) to move forward. They're not only looking for the immigrants, it's looking for the whole country.
EM: Yeah. What are some of the ways that you've lobbied the government? I have seen, like, letters to Congress and things like that. Are there other ways that you--?
LRZ: Letters, meetings with Congress, meetings with the president, meetings with everybody, but unfortunate--well, we try to do our best, I don’t say what I was thinking to say because it’s not polite, [slightly flustered] it's not, it’s not good to say what I was thinking to say, but we try to use the channels who are open, to try to intercede, but that's it.
EM: Do what you can.
LRZ: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Exactly, yeah.
EM: So I've heard you say multiple times at different masses and things that you're the happiest bishop in the world.
LRZ: Mmhm.
EM: How? How do you keep up that joy? How do you stay the happiest bishop in the world?
LRZ: [Chuckle] How I can answer that? If you, I think for me is, if you are responding, and you are sincere, responding to your vocation, you find what is you, what is your call in your heart, what God is calling you to do in life. We don't--. The way in which we use the word vocation is so restricted, and we think that it's only to become a priest, a nun, whatever. That is what we usually, people usually, understand about vocation. But vocation is: “What is your call? What is there in your heart? What is the seed that God put there?” That if you use that, and you are sincere with that, and you find that, you will start to flourish as a person. Flourish as a person is only possible when we are sincere with ourselves. Doing something because of money, you can be rich, but you could be completely sad, empty, angry, and all of that. For me is is, I think I try every day to, to respond, to my own vocation, to respond and be sincere with the challenges, to recognize that I'm not perfect. I have my limitations, big limitations, I have my gifts, but in the middle of all of this is God, who works, is God who performs the thing that we need to be done. And sharing time, seeing the faces of the people, celebrating with the people, see the beauty of our celebrations, be able to see the beauty of each person who is there in the pew, each person who's coming to this office. Because in everyone is something beautiful. And be able to see in their eyes that they are looking for something there. Because the ones who are coming to the church, they are searching. Sometimes they don't know, but they are there for a purpose. And being there, presiding the Eucharist, and trying to dream with them about something great, dreaming with them that that moment is the moment in which, doesn't matter who you are and how you feel, it's a moment of love. When we are united, as imperfect as we are, and we try to pray together, with broken voice, with sometimes anger, sometimes keeping silence, that is beautiful. That is beautiful. Sharing with the people, embracing them, talking with them and see the priests that I have here that the Lord gave me to work with them, what more I can ask? And making time every day for my “date” with Jesus as well is important. You know, many times we think that prayer, to pray to Jesus is boring, and we don't make time because meh, but a prayer time is the time of dating, to date with. And when you learn to date with Jesus, you desire that time with him. And, and the love of that moment, and how Jesus work with you is the moment in which he's helping you to see something new and great and beautiful in you because love is the power who transform us. And true love makes us to do crazy things. And the people know in life that when the people fell in love, later on, they start to think, “Oh I did that?” Love never measure obstacles. Love always help to see ways to overcome the obstacle. And that is what happened with Jesus, in our faith.
EM: Do you have any practical advice for how we might live out that love in these multicultural communities?
LRZ: First of all is, is how, how you live that love with Jesus. Because we are like a, empty inside trying to help, trying to be, but without anything inside, because we are busy. You know, we become very nice social workers, but it’s the essence of our services is missing. We cannot pass the day without eating. If we don't eat, we become grumpy, our mood change, our reaction with the people are different. That is the reaction of an empty stomach. [Chuckle] And it’s very obvious to see that. And we live our lives with empty hearts, with the essence of what nourishes us [chatter outside]. And if we live in that way and we are afraid to make that time for dating, space to be touched by love, time to be able to see that someone is always for us, time to know that how patient is the Lord with me, how merciful He is with me, in that beautiful time of learning how much I'm loved. Because it doesn't matter how, what, He's always there for me. Once we have that experience it's easier to be with people.
EM: That's beautiful. Well, I've come to the end of my scripted questions. So I guess is there anything else you'd like to add before we conclude this interview, to say to the people for posterity?
LRZ: Life is beautiful. It is how we embrace the gift of our own life, and then, how humble we can become to be able to recognize that I need help, in different ways. We live in a culture today that, we need to try to impress people, and it is a struggle, because, make us afraid to see our own reality. And as, as diverse as we are in our own families--the family, each member of the family, is very different, you know, each one has their own personality, their own things but you need to learn to work around and to respect each other--it's the same thing in the church. We are so universal, so diverse, that we don't need to be afraid. Never be afraid. To see how rich we are, and to embrace the treasure of our own church, and let the gifts of other ones to enrich us, and that's how we can enrich the other ones, too. I think that would be the key.
EM: Well, thank you so much, bishop.
LRZ: You're welcome.
EM: I'm going to stop the recording now.
END OF INTERVIEW
Luis Rafael Zarama: I consent and it’s fine with me.
EM: OK, wonderful. So I guess we'll just get started. First question: I understand you're from Pasto, Colombia. Can you tell me a little bit about your experience growing up and living there, your childhood? [Clears throat]
LRZ: Thank you, Ella. Well, Ella, I think it would be too long to explain [EM laughs] my childhood and my life in Colombia. I'm from...my hometown is Pasto, as you mentioned, it’s a city southwest of the capital, it’s up in the mountains. You have a picture there, where you can see, that is my hometown there [gestures to a picture on the wall of his office], I keep in my office to remember where, where I'm coming from. It was a small city at the time that I grew up. It was a beautiful experience, because I was able to walk everywhere. [I] was not in need of public transportation, [there] was public transportation, but [there] was the freedom to be able to walk. Something that is, I have a good memory, is, is all the different events that we had as a family when I grew up. Saturday, so each Saturday we had a lunch, the whole family in my grandfather's home. We gathered together every Saturday with cousins and uncles and--. That is a beautiful memory of being together, being together. And listen to the stories of my grandfather, what was his life when he grew up? The beautiful respect for him, for my grandfather is something--and with respect with love with not because we're afraid of him--because who, who he was. And then that was beautiful. It's a good memories. It's a good memories of that time there. And this is, that was the way in which I grew up in my hometown, until I was twenty-eight. Of my life living there until twenty-eight. The food. The life. Looking back was a great, a great time.
EM: That's wonderful. Do you miss the food?
LRZ: Yeah, that is the thing that I missed the most [EM laughs] you know, is the taste. You can have it here. But it doesn't taste as there. I don’t know what is there but it’s giving a different taste.
EM: That makes sense. There's something about it, yeah.
LRZ: It's something about it. I don't know if. The place. The way that they cook. The products are fresh. And that make a big difference.
EM: I’m sure. So you mentioned you were 28 when you left Colombia, is that right?
LRZ: No, I left my hometown.
EM: Mmm.
LRZ: I make my studies in Bogota for canon law. That is the law of the church.
EM: Okay.
LRZ: And when I was growing up, I studied in my hometown, I was a teacher there for 11 years in schools. And then and after that I went to Bogota to study canon law. And after I finished my studies in canon law, when I was, when I came to the United States in 1991.
EM: Okay, 1991. And what motivated your decision to move?
LRZ: That is a question that is very interesting because it was not a motivation for me to come to the United States, it was not my dream, it was not what I was looking for. My parents, they already live, they were already living in Orlando in Florida. I never was interested in moving to the United States. I enjoyed my life in Colombia. As a person of faith, I think was a way in which, I don't know how, the Lord brought me here to the United States, to the archdiocese of Atlanta.
EM: And so is that where you entered seminary, in Atlanta?
LRZ: Yeah, I was in, I already made all my studies in Colombia, my formation studies in Colombia. In Atlanta, I was received as a seminarian, and I was there for two years having an experience there. For me to be able to know the diocese, the archdiocese, and for them to know me. And that was a big shock.
EM: [EM laughs] So why was it then and there that you went to Atlanta? Was it that call from God or--?
LRZ: That was--well, what's very interesting is that I never, I never applied. I never was looking for to come here. It was through the executive assistant of the Dean of the canon law faculty, that through her knowing someone who was a friend of the priest in Atlanta, she spoke to that woman and she spoke to that priest, and that priest was interested to know me, and that was the beginning of my way to come here to the United S -- but not was because of me, not because what I was looking for. It was one person, this executive assistant, who, according to her, I had a vocation. And she sold the product to a priest, and he was interested to know me, and that was the beginning of the process to come to the United States.
EM: Can you tell me a little bit about those early years after you became a priest in Atlanta?
LRZ: Well, Ella, when I came here, you know, I didn't speak any English. It was a nightmare.
EM: [EM laughs] What was your experience learning English and being a new priest?
LRZ: [Sigh] Cultures are completely different. You know, it's not only the language. It’s the culture. Without the language to communicate, plus the culture was different, it was not easy at all to adjust. I was the only--at that time--I was the only seminarian from Colombia, the only one who spoke Spanish and no English.
EM: Right.
LRZ: And then being unable to talk, being unable to let them know how you, how I was feeling, was not easy. I at one point was ready to leave the program. It was too much [EM laughs]. But thanks be to God someone was there in my life who stopped me, and I continued the process there. But it’s--each language has their own way to express, you know, Spanish is more romantic, English is more technical language, and [to] keep the balance between both languages is--it's not easy. It's not easy. In the Anglo culture, where an example that I used that it took me a long time to understand, is when you make a phone call, you're going to do what you need to do in the phone call, you know, it’s, it’s almost no “hi.” It’s nothing. You're going to business. And sometimes no “goodbye.” [EM laughs]. And for us, in our culture, when you make a phone call first you speak about everything. [EM laughs] You speak about family. You speak about life. You speak about everything and at the end they say “I'm calling you because...” That is, at the end of the conversation. What is--for example, when I was a priest, I was a pastor, there was a physician who was a parishioner, and he called me one time from the hospital with a patient who was there. And the doctor was--he asked me to ask a question to this person. You know, because he didn't speak Spanish, the doctor. And he was looking for me to help him to translate. And he asked me one question, and the answer will be only “yes” or “not.” I asked the question in Spanish to this person who was in the hospital. And to be able to say “yes” or “not” took him 15 minutes. And the doctor who is a friend of mine said, “Took you 15 minutes to say yes?!” And so that is the culture, that is the culture.
EM: So with those differences in culture, do you have a vision for serving and building a community among, here in the Diocese, a very culturally and linguistically diverse group of believers? I guess both spiritually and materially.
LRZ: I had that experience. I said to have that experience when I was a pastor in the Archdiocese of Atlanta, in a small parish in the northeast of the archdiocese. To build a community, the first thing that you need to do, especially when it is multicultural, is to find ways in which you allow both communities to start to see each other at the beginning. It’s not forcing anything. You cannot force any integration at all. That is a process. Accepting that they are there. Seeing each other. Maybe later on you can have some activities together as a parish. And little by little, to win the trust of both because it's not only the ones who are here who need to trust and the ones who are coming; it’s the ones who are coming who need to trust in the people here. And for me, one of the challenges is that we are very impatient. And we try to force things, but that doesn't work. Because need to take the time to really make them feel comfortable. In our faith, in the way that the Anglo community expressed their faith is very simple. In the Latino community, expressing faith is a lot of different traditions, processions, representations, parties, it’s a lot of activities. You know, for the Anglo culture, to raise money for the parish suitcase through an envelope, it's for pledges. You know, I say, you know, “I pledge to give such amount of money three years” and mark there and sign there and--. For the Latino community, that doesn't work. They can promise to give you $1,000,000, but they never give anything. Because it's not the way in which the Latino community works. The Latino community raised money through activities. If it's something they give money, and they are very generous. And one thing that we need to keep in mind is that we cannot see the immigrants here as poor people. That is a way to treat them less than us. Maybe that they don't have the money that another people have; doesn't mean that they are poor and we need to treat them in that way. Because will be the lack of respect. They are generous in their own way as the Anglo community is generous. The Latino community, you know them, and you need to treat them with respect and respect the traditions that they have to give money, they are very generous.
EM: So I guess with some of those differences in the way that the “Anglo” or “Latino” community sort of approaches the faith, have you seen in your time in the diocese changes that have been brought about by the Latin American communities here? What might be some of those different cultural practices, or what might be some things that the church has increased offering certain services?
LRZ: We have Catholic Charities, who is there to help the people who are in need. In our churches, it’s a challenge. How will we serve them? One big difference, for example, the Anglo community, they know whether the times in which the office or the parish is open is like business hours. If you work with the Hispanic community, it's after five o’clock, when they finish their jobs. That is when they like to come to the church, you know. And we need to learn that. We need to learn that to do that is to respond to the needs of the people. The needs of how we help them that they don't lose their traditions because traditions in our culture and every culture is what give us our own identity. We express our identities through our expressions and culture and traditions. When you take away that, they are lost. And that is how we can help them to keep the traditions alive. And use that opportunity for evangelization. Because the people like to come and they are there. How you can use that time? To teach them to help them to be closer to the church. It’s a treasure that is there that we need to learn to use that, that moment. And another--and one thing that is important too is for the Anglos here is to remember--because we humans, we don't, we don't have memory. We have a very short memory--but we need to remember us, living here, where our families came from. Because this country has been built by immigrants, waves of immigrants in different times in the history. And every wave of immigrants suffers. And very few people, I think immigrate [from] their own country because they wish to come here. No, they were forced by different reasons. Lack of jobs. Violence. It's not that I say, “Oh. I'd like to go there.” No, they were escaping from a situation. And the price was high. And if we--if we looking back and seeing how our ancestors came here, how hard it was for them to come here, to start to live here, we will understand better the situation of the new wave of immigrants that we have. But sometimes we don't--we don't get it. We don't get it. We don't understand. But when you have violence, when you don't have and you don't have, in your country, when you, when you don't have means to live life in a very...nice way with the dignity that is supposed to have, and when you see that [there] is opportunity in another place to have what you don't have, and if you're looking to give the best to your family, the sacrifices that these people are doing, we don't get it sometimes.
EM: Yeah. Do you feel that your own migration experience has influenced your pastoral approach as a priest and then as a bishop?
LRZ: I can understand the barrier, the huge barrier of language. I got it, I understand that. I understand very well culture, adaptation. Something that is difficult for me, because it was not my experience, for me when I came here to the States, I came with papers. Legally. And with stuff. I don't know what it means being here without a legal status. I tried to understand but I didn't have that experience, and I think it's tough because in one moment and another moment they can stop, they can arrest and send them back. And whatever they were able to be here, to build here, will be gone. But for me as a bishop here in the diocese, I think this is a beautiful thing, is how the church can be the place in which everyone, Anglos, Africans--because it’s not only Latinos who are here in the diocese, a lot of people from India, a lot of people from different countries in Africa--how when we come to the Church we can feel that it’s home. That you are treated with respect, when you feel there is love there, and when you are able to experience that someone cares for you. And it is like OK, it’s part of what you were there, you can feel it here because we celebrate. It's the same Eucharist, same language. It's a place in which you can feel at home. Safe place. I think that is--. I cannot change realities. I don't have the power to change things, but at least if we are conscious to welcome them and respect them and celebrate with them, we're giving something that is very important. And at least in that moments, we respect their dignity. That is a very important thing.
EM: Are there any particular ways that the diocese has made an effort to increase language accessibility, particularly for Spanish speakers, but maybe any other languages in the diocese, priests speaking different languages, things like that?
LRZ: Well, in our formation today for our seminarians, I have a place where I send in them, our seminarians, in which, at least at the end of their formation our seminarians need to speak two languages: English, and at least to celebrate the sacraments in Spanish. Because half of our Church in the Diocese of Raleigh is in Hispanic community. And we cannot ignore them. And preparing our seminars to be able to serve them, that is the beginning of something. The other part is how open each priest is to be able to be immersed in the culture. Because it's not enough, it’s not enough to speak [the language]. Because if you don't understand the culture, you cannot reach the people. And it's the same thing for the priests who are coming from another countries, you know. It is, if you don't understand how we live here in the United States, you don't know how to help the people here. You know in both ways it’s not only the Anglo priest it’s too the Hispanic, the African, the whatever priests are here that we need to understand, not only speak the language, but we need to understand the culture. And be open to enrich the other culture and to be able to receive the richness of the other culture and working together.
EM: [EM turns notebook page] Do you know of what parishes in the diocese might have a lot of efforts to sort of reach parishioners from different cultures or have an integrated community? I know we said, you know, we can't force that, but are there parishes where that's happening?
LRZ: They are many. They are many. I cannot say some names, and later on, forget there's another one. But what I can say, [there] are fewer parish[es], in which they maintain only one culture. The rest of the parishes in the diocese are multicultural, in which they are service in English, service in Spanish, some of them they have service for the--we have some churches who work with the Korean community, with the Vietnamese community, we have a church who, that is, who serve the Indians and have the rites within the Indian community. But most of the parishes are more multicultural and the great thing that we are doing here at this time--in the north, when the waves of immigration happen, each culture each language build their own church and serve their own community. The Irish, they have the Irish Church, the Italian have the Italian, the German, the Polish. Each one had their own church—here, no. It’s a church, and it’s open to share their space with different communities. I think that is another way of evangelization. You start to see who's coming, I don't know, but OK, they are welcome. And little by little, things change.
EM: That’s beautiful, that we have more multicultural parishes.
LRZ: Yeah, it's beautiful. It is beautiful and something that we need to keep in mind. For example, for the first generation of young people here, being born here or growing up here, the fact that they speak better English than Spanish or better English than Vietnamese doesn't mean that they are Anglos. Because they are still thinking with the Spanish culture or Vietnamese culture, with all the traditions of their, of their culture. The means that they speak doesn't mean that they already assimilate [to] the Anglo culture, you know. And we need to respect that. Because respecting them is the way that we can enrich each other. We don't make, we cannot make them feel bad because, no, they are in the process. Their parents speak Spanish, the music that they listen is in Spanish, the food that they eat is in Spanish, the TV, the channels that they see at home is in Spanish, but they speak English better than Spanish. But they are rooted in this, in the in the Spanish culture.
EM: I guess switching gears a little bit, I also have seen that you're a part of the USCCB [United States Conference of Catholic Bishops] Migration Committee. What has that role looked like, and what do you hope to achieve maybe in the future in that role?
LRZ: That office is, the purpose of that office is to lobby Congress for better treatment for the immigration people, is to lobby for, find a way to make a path for all these people who are in DACA and DACA who are legal but not legal, they have a document, but they never can, they can never move from there, from that I can say it's like a limbo. You know, they are here, but they are not here, they are, they are here, but they don't have the same rights. They have been growing here, they have been studying here, but they don't know. They are stuck. And it is how, with Congress, with the government, trying to find a way to make an immigration process human. The church is never promoting illegal immigration. Now we need to be very clear. What the church is doing is, once these people reach here, not because we brought them, they got here to the state: How [do] we serve them? In some occasions, they are saying that we are bringing the, we are guilty of the people who are coming, we are bringing people, we are bringing immigrants here to the state. No, we are not doing that. We are serving the ones who are here. And as a church, we cannot ask for ID to serve them. And it is the way to intercede for a, for a way in which could be a solution, and a solution for the country too, to help the country ( ) to move forward. They're not only looking for the immigrants, it's looking for the whole country.
EM: Yeah. What are some of the ways that you've lobbied the government? I have seen, like, letters to Congress and things like that. Are there other ways that you--?
LRZ: Letters, meetings with Congress, meetings with the president, meetings with everybody, but unfortunate--well, we try to do our best, I don’t say what I was thinking to say because it’s not polite, [slightly flustered] it's not, it’s not good to say what I was thinking to say, but we try to use the channels who are open, to try to intercede, but that's it.
EM: Do what you can.
LRZ: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Exactly, yeah.
EM: So I've heard you say multiple times at different masses and things that you're the happiest bishop in the world.
LRZ: Mmhm.
EM: How? How do you keep up that joy? How do you stay the happiest bishop in the world?
LRZ: [Chuckle] How I can answer that? If you, I think for me is, if you are responding, and you are sincere, responding to your vocation, you find what is you, what is your call in your heart, what God is calling you to do in life. We don't--. The way in which we use the word vocation is so restricted, and we think that it's only to become a priest, a nun, whatever. That is what we usually, people usually, understand about vocation. But vocation is: “What is your call? What is there in your heart? What is the seed that God put there?” That if you use that, and you are sincere with that, and you find that, you will start to flourish as a person. Flourish as a person is only possible when we are sincere with ourselves. Doing something because of money, you can be rich, but you could be completely sad, empty, angry, and all of that. For me is is, I think I try every day to, to respond, to my own vocation, to respond and be sincere with the challenges, to recognize that I'm not perfect. I have my limitations, big limitations, I have my gifts, but in the middle of all of this is God, who works, is God who performs the thing that we need to be done. And sharing time, seeing the faces of the people, celebrating with the people, see the beauty of our celebrations, be able to see the beauty of each person who is there in the pew, each person who's coming to this office. Because in everyone is something beautiful. And be able to see in their eyes that they are looking for something there. Because the ones who are coming to the church, they are searching. Sometimes they don't know, but they are there for a purpose. And being there, presiding the Eucharist, and trying to dream with them about something great, dreaming with them that that moment is the moment in which, doesn't matter who you are and how you feel, it's a moment of love. When we are united, as imperfect as we are, and we try to pray together, with broken voice, with sometimes anger, sometimes keeping silence, that is beautiful. That is beautiful. Sharing with the people, embracing them, talking with them and see the priests that I have here that the Lord gave me to work with them, what more I can ask? And making time every day for my “date” with Jesus as well is important. You know, many times we think that prayer, to pray to Jesus is boring, and we don't make time because meh, but a prayer time is the time of dating, to date with. And when you learn to date with Jesus, you desire that time with him. And, and the love of that moment, and how Jesus work with you is the moment in which he's helping you to see something new and great and beautiful in you because love is the power who transform us. And true love makes us to do crazy things. And the people know in life that when the people fell in love, later on, they start to think, “Oh I did that?” Love never measure obstacles. Love always help to see ways to overcome the obstacle. And that is what happened with Jesus, in our faith.
EM: Do you have any practical advice for how we might live out that love in these multicultural communities?
LRZ: First of all is, is how, how you live that love with Jesus. Because we are like a, empty inside trying to help, trying to be, but without anything inside, because we are busy. You know, we become very nice social workers, but it’s the essence of our services is missing. We cannot pass the day without eating. If we don't eat, we become grumpy, our mood change, our reaction with the people are different. That is the reaction of an empty stomach. [Chuckle] And it’s very obvious to see that. And we live our lives with empty hearts, with the essence of what nourishes us [chatter outside]. And if we live in that way and we are afraid to make that time for dating, space to be touched by love, time to be able to see that someone is always for us, time to know that how patient is the Lord with me, how merciful He is with me, in that beautiful time of learning how much I'm loved. Because it doesn't matter how, what, He's always there for me. Once we have that experience it's easier to be with people.
EM: That's beautiful. Well, I've come to the end of my scripted questions. So I guess is there anything else you'd like to add before we conclude this interview, to say to the people for posterity?
LRZ: Life is beautiful. It is how we embrace the gift of our own life, and then, how humble we can become to be able to recognize that I need help, in different ways. We live in a culture today that, we need to try to impress people, and it is a struggle, because, make us afraid to see our own reality. And as, as diverse as we are in our own families--the family, each member of the family, is very different, you know, each one has their own personality, their own things but you need to learn to work around and to respect each other--it's the same thing in the church. We are so universal, so diverse, that we don't need to be afraid. Never be afraid. To see how rich we are, and to embrace the treasure of our own church, and let the gifts of other ones to enrich us, and that's how we can enrich the other ones, too. I think that would be the key.
EM: Well, thank you so much, bishop.
LRZ: You're welcome.
EM: I'm going to stop the recording now.
END OF INTERVIEW
